2 handed build advice, pls

[mauk2]

Ok, COMPLETE noob here, although I've played DND on paper for many years.

I would like to build a toon, as self-sufficient as is reasonable, and using a powerful two handed weapon for attacking.

I'm leaning towards a rogue1/paladin human.

How do I make this work? Any tricks/tips I should know about?

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated. :)

[morticianjohn]

I'm assuming you want the rogue level so you can disable traps?

Disabling traps can be overrated for normal and hard difficulties and on elite it will be challenging to get your score high enough with only one rogue level since a paladin usually would dump inteligence. I suggest going pure if this is going to be your first character. You'll have a higher BAB so you'll be hitting slightly more, you'll get your spells a level sooner (paladin get lvl 4 spells at lvl 14 but with a rogue splash it would be 15).

If you really want to disable traps most people go 2 levels of rogue for the skill points, and evasion.

[morticianjohn]

Here is two different builds one which disables and one which doesn't. Both are 28 point builds but if you have 32 point builds I'll show that also

Pure 20th level human paladin

16 STR
14 CON (16 on 32 point builds)
8 DEX
8 INT
10 WIS
16 CHA

18/2 human paladin/rogue

16 STR
14 CON (15 on 32 point builds)
8 DEX
12 INT (14 on 32 point builds)
10 WIS
14 CHA


2 charisma is the difference between one tier of divine might (one of the paladin dps boosts). Or it could be 2 points of constitution which would be more HP for your character. Even with 12 starting inteligence it would be challenging to get a proper score in spot, search, and disable device. I think you'd need a +2 int tome and you'd have to purchase search and disable gear at each level to keep your skills up.

I have played a 36 point paladin with 2 rogue levels who could get all traps in the game however, now that heavy armor is so useful the 2 rogue levels become less attractive because in many cases you'll rather have the PRR than evasion. So my suggestion is to go with the pure paladin.

[mauk2]

Thanks for the quick replies! :)



Here is two different builds one which disables and one which doesn't. Both are 28 point builds but if you have 32 point builds I'll show that also


I have 32 point builds. :) I likes powah.



Pure 20th level human paladin

16 STR
14 CON (16 on 32 point builds)
8 DEX
8 INT
10 WIS
16 CHA

18/2 human paladin/rogue

16 STR
14 CON (15 on 32 point builds)
8 DEX
12 INT (14 on 32 point builds)
10 WIS
14 CHA

You are dumping Dex? I thought that would be almost required, for all the sneaky/findy stuff in the game....




2 charisma is the difference between one tier of divine might (one of the paladin dps boosts). Or it could be 2 points of constitution which would be more HP for your character. Even with 12 starting inteligence it would be challenging to get a proper score in spot, search, and disable device. I think you'd need a +2 int tome and you'd have to purchase search and disable gear at each level to keep your skills up.

Hmmm. Okay, I need to figure out how the auctionhouse works in this game, I think.



I have played a 36 point paladin with 2 rogue levels who could get all traps in the game however, now that heavy armor is so useful the 2 rogue levels become less attractive because in many cases you'll rather have the PRR than evasion. So my suggestion is to go with the pure paladin.

I'm sorry, PRR?

And, is a straight pally going to get all the chests and stuff?

[Kinerd]

It's harder to make a trapper as a new player, because the gear is half the battle and doesn't come cheap.

Trying to do so on a paladin compounds this, because paladins get no trap skills as in-class skills and a measly 2 points base per level. This means the 14 Int human listed gets 5 points. 2 for disable, 2 for search, and now what? .5 for spot and .5 for open lock? You're going to be barbarian-spotting a lot.

PRR is a DDO mechanic. Two step process:
1. Establish your PRR. Heavy armor gives BAB + 6 if you are proficient with it (which a paladin is). An 18 pal / 2 rog has 19 bab, so 25 PRR.
2. (1 - .99 ^ PRR) * .65 = physical damage reduction. With no other sources of PRR, this puts you at 14.4%. This means that if a physical attack would have hit you for 50 points of damage, it instead hits you for 42 (or 43, who knows how it rounds). This might not seem like much, but physical attacks tend to accrue a lot faster than Reflex save chances in leveling content.

.

I would say stick with pure paladin. Take Maximize, Toughness, the Hunter of the Dead Prestige Enhancement, Human Improved Recovery, and Devotion: your self-healing and sustainability will be very strong. Take GTHF, Power Attack, Improved Critical, Divine Sacrifice enhancement, and Human Versatility (Damage Boost): your offense will be reasonably strong.

[mauk2]

It's harder to make a trapper as a new player, because the gear is half the battle and doesn't come cheap.

Hmmm. Ok, good info. Definately gonna have to learn the auctionhouse. :)



Trying to do so on a paladin compounds this, because paladins get no trap skills as in-class skills and a measly 2 points base per level. This means the 14 Int human listed gets 5 points. 2 for disable, 2 for search, and now what? .5 for spot and .5 for open lock? You're going to be barbarian-spotting a lot.

So, dealing with the traps by blundering through them, huh? Seems...a bit clumsy. :D But hey, if it's viable!


PRR is a DDO mechanic. Two step process:
1. Establish your PRR. Heavy armor gives BAB + 6 if you are proficient with it (which a paladin is). An 18 pal / 2 rog has 19 bab, so 25 PRR.
2. (1 - .99 ^ PRR) * .65 = physical damage reduction. With no other sources of PRR, this puts you at 14.4%. This means that if a physical attack would have hit you for 50 points of damage, it instead hits you for 42 (or 43, who knows how it rounds). This might not seem like much, but physical attacks tend to accrue a lot faster than Reflex save chances in leveling content.


So, if I read this right, PRR is some sort of damage resistance you get from heavy armor? And it is more useful than being dodgy.... Ok, I can see that.

Does this PRR stuff stack with things like Invulnerability armor?


I would say stick with pure paladin. Take Maximize, Toughness, the Hunter of the Dead Prestige Enhancement, Human Improved Recovery, and Devotion: your self-healing and sustainability will be very strong. Take GTHF, Power Attack, Improved Critical, Divine Sacrifice enhancement, and Human Versatility (Damage Boost): your offense will be reasonably strong.

Ahhh.... The meat and potatoes. Thank you for this advice!

So a pure paladin is a reasonable soloer? Who knew! (re-rolls)

[mauk2]

Ok, I found this character builder thingy, and tinkered a bit.

I hope this comes through in a useful fashion:



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.12.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Melinna D'Sire
Level 1 Lawful Good Human Female
(1 Paladin)
Hit Points: 45
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 1\1
Fortitude: 5
Reflex: 0
Will: 3

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 1)
Strength 16 16
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 14 14
Charisma 16 16

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 1)
Balance -1 -1
Bluff 3 3
Concentration 6 6
Diplomacy 3 3
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 3
Heal 2 4
Hide -1 -1
Intimidate 7 7
Jump 3 3
Listen 2 2
Move Silently -1 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 1
Search -1 -1
Spot 2 2
Swim 3 3
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Self Sufficient
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Iron Companion
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I





Anyway, I'll be giving this a go. :) Thanks for the advice!

[Aurora1979]

Are you dead set on a pally build OP?

If not a bard can be built to handle traps ok. They can also self heal, use 2 handers and you get some nice buffs too.

I love warchanter builds, they are great fun to play in my opinion.

[paraplegic]

well.. my advice. dont go pally ( yet in pnp i was one of my favorite chars was a pally) go barbarian or fighter. its easier.. tho paladin can be a challenge, ( since it requires a lot of stats points in so many places)

[FrozenNova]

To be honest, a barbarian with a hireling can solo 90% of the content a paladin can, usually in half the time, with the added benefit of being guranteed a powerful character when all's said and done in the higher levels.

Splashing rogue on a paladin isn't a terrible idea, even though paladin-rogues can't maintain trap skills. 2 rogue provides a paladin with evasion, which is exceptionally useful coupled with a paladin's divine saves. Having evasion means that while you won't be able to disable traps, they won't be able to touch you either - provided you keep your reflex up. Rogue also provides haste boost, a little sneak damage, and the incredibly valuable UMD as a class skill which synergizes with paladin's fair charisma.

On the other hand, having evasion locks a paladin out of having heavy armour - previously, this wasn't a problem, but with the introduction of PRR, heavy armour now makes a considerable difference. It also means you lose the paladin's capstone, which, while having degraded a bit since the availability of DR breakers through the crafting system, is still a chunk of damage.

The paladin's resiliance and versatility make them appear pretty decent choices for new players, though you may find yourself playing catchup with the more conventional barbarians and fighters in terms of meaningful damage output.

[ReaperAlexEU]

the DEX vs INT thing surprised me too after DnD, but both search and disable are INT skills, not DEX. in fact for traps you dont need DEX at all, unless its to power evasion to get through the trap to the box on the far side. spot is also nice and thats a WIS skill, you can find the trap with your face, but getting a spot alert is much less painful :)

ok, your paly build, drop the WIS down to say 10 or 11. the reason for this is WIS items are easy to find, and those count towards your ability to cast spells. most vets will drop WIS to 8 as they know they can get a +6 WIS item which is enough to cast lvl4 spells. this is a bit painful early on (they tend to use owls wisdom wands or pots to get enough to cast spells early on), so 10 or 11 would be nicer for a first timer.

also note you can use any wand that will eventually be on your spell list, so be sure to grab a cure light wounds wand ASAP as its cheaper than drinking potions. you will upgrade them to cure serious wands a bit later, and can really help out a party if things go south. naturally your LoH and spells will be better, but wands have 50 charges and tend to last longer in prolonged dungeon crawls. if you see a players health bar go pink it means they are incapacitated, so throw some sort of healing their way to get them back on their feet. even a barbarian can help in that situation, the bracers of aid in newbieville give temporary HP, enough to save a player from bleeding out. as a paly you'll have all sorts of options and will get to really play the hero :)

[mauk2]

the DEX vs INT thing surprised me too after DnD, but both search and disable are INT skills, not DEX. in fact for traps you dont need DEX at all, unless its to power evasion to get through the trap to the box on the far side. spot is also nice and thats a WIS skill, you can find the trap with your face, but getting a spot alert is much less painful :)

ok, your paly build, drop the WIS down to say 10 or 11. the reason for this is WIS items are easy to find, and those count towards your ability to cast spells. most vets will drop WIS to 8 as they know they can get a +6 WIS item which is enough to cast lvl4 spells. this is a bit painful early on (they tend to use owls wisdom wands or pots to get enough to cast spells early on), so 10 or 11 would be nicer for a first timer.


Very good advice...except that I already rolled and got to second level last night. :) I think I'll stick with the high wisdom, I like having good saves. :)



also note you can use any wand that will eventually be on your spell list, so be sure to grab a cure light wounds wand ASAP as its cheaper than drinking potions. you will upgrade them to cure serious wands a bit later, and can really help out a party if things go south. naturally your LoH and spells will be better, but wands have 50 charges and tend to last longer in prolonged dungeon crawls. if you see a players health bar go pink it means they are incapacitated, so throw some sort of healing their way to get them back on their feet. even a barbarian can help in that situation, the bracers of aid in newbieville give temporary HP, enough to save a player from bleeding out. as a paly you'll have all sorts of options and will get to really play the hero :)

Sweeeet. Where do I find the wands? As I said, I'm still in the newby area, and honestly, I'm having fun with it. :)

I did work up a build to 20 in that character designer tool, and wow, I hafta say, I'm pleased with what they've done with the turn undead feature. The 'Paladin's Might' trick makes Turns useful against non-undead, which pleases me greatly. :)

Oh, and yes, the undead hunter thing? VERY nice. TY for pointing that out, whoever that was!

[ReaperAlexEU]

Very good advice...except that I already rolled and got to second level last night. :) I think I'll stick with the high wisdom, I like having good saves. :)

Sweeeet. Where do I find the wands? As I said, I'm still in the newby area, and honestly, I'm having fun with it. :)

I did work up a build to 20 in that character designer tool, and wow, I hafta say, I'm pleased with what they've done with the turn undead feature. The 'Paladin's Might' trick makes Turns useful against non-undead, which pleases me greatly. :)

Oh, and yes, the undead hunter thing? VERY nice. TY for pointing that out, whoever that was!

hehe, thought i might have been to late on that one. not to worry though, it wont make or break the build, just a nice optimisation DnD players tend to miss. on my paly i had 8 WIS and took the feat to use CHA for my will saves, double CHA bonus to saves is great :). i've since dropped that feat so my will saves have taken a drop, but with 2 rare items i can now regenerate spell points when i'm hit so i can cast more cures per day.

ohh, did you take UMD as a skill? if not max it out, throw everything you can at it! why? cos it will let you use scrolls to raise the dead and also heal (110HP from a heal scroll). its a slow burning skill but i got my UMD up high enough for heal scrolls long before i had the spell point regenerating items which meant i could self heal a lot more during a long quest, and at that level the wands don't really cut it. as a paly you have several healing methods (and a few raise dead too), but nothing lasts as long as a stack of 100 scrolls!

for the wands head to stormreach market, its through the harbour, you can return to korthos to finish the story line. press M for the big map then hover over the icons, that will let you navigate the town areas so you dont get lost :)

[morticianjohn]

Paladin is a pretty good soloer in spite of the people who say that they'd rather play a barb with a hireling. The advantage to being a paladin (especially for a new player prior to figuring out the DDO economy) is they can heal themselves without much expense. Cure wands are cheaper than cure potions and paladins get cure light wounds relatively early along with LoH. While they kill stuff slower than a barbarian and require a lot more skill to use properly (short term boosts such as divine might, divine favor, smites and zeal means activating a lot of abilities in a short amount of time) the advantage you'll have on a paladin is the ability to do some difficult quests without a hireling (due to better self healing) and you get some pretty nice spells which can be essential to quest completion (deathward, restoration, raise dead enhancement etc...). Also paladins get a huge advantage when it comes to saves and that is a big part of completions in DDO.

I'd still recommend a hireling for the most difficult stuff but for the easier stuff you should try it out without a hireling.

Finding traps with your face can work although on the elite difficulty it will likely kill you. On normal and hard you can usually get by with some pain and survive and thankfully if you observe the trap and it's timing you can generally avoid it.

Looks like you've done ok even though you started with high wisdom. I think you'll enjoy the character just remember that you're never going to match a fighter/barb/rogue in damage a cleric/wizard/sorc/bard/arti/favored soul/druid in spell casting but you'll be versatile enough to do good damage and still self heal in most quests along with good saves means that you can be extremely difficult for enemies to get rid of.

[unbongwah]

Wow, 13 replies and no one's said "Go look at Junts's pally thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218542)" yet? That must be some sort of record. :)

OP - since you've already started your character, this might be a moot point, but here's what a classic rogue-splashed KotC pally build looks like (slightly updated):

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.12.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female
(18 Paladin \ 2 Rogue)
Hit Points: 344
Spell Points: 270
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 13
Will: 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 24
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 18

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 3 10
Bluff 3 4
Concentration 2 3
Diplomacy 3 4
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 7 8
Heal -1 -1
Hide -1 -1
Intimidate 7 27
Jump 7 11
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently -1 -1
Open Lock 3 3
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 0
Search 0 0
Spot 3 3
Swim 3 7
Tumble 3 3
Use Magic Device 7 27

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Sunder


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+7)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III
Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I


Instead of Intim, you may want Concentration instead; makes it easier to take advantage of UMD mid-fight. The +2 CHA tome is so she can take Divine Might III; the STR & CON tomes are optional, but obviously desireable.

If you wanted DoS instead of KotC, I'd take Shield Mastery at lvl 6 and move Imp Sunder to lvl 18. If you wanted to use heavy armor (thus rendering Evasion moot), you could do rogue 1 / ftr 1 which gets you an extra feat; you lose Wand & Scroll Mastery I, though, which is a nice boost to her self-sufficiency.

Most pallies dump-stat WIS because they're too stat-starved as it is (esp. on 28-pt build) without putting unnecessary pts into WIS. Yeah, it can be a bit of a nuisance early on, but in the long run it pays off to focus on your core pally stats (STR, CHA, CON).

[thouston]

this build worked for me. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=327669

[mauk2]

Oooh, more responses. :)

Thanks for all the feedback!

I'm up to level 4 (slow, I know, but I'm also marketing a bit to raise cash) and so far the only things that give me troubles are the kobold shamans. I've got like +10 saves versus everything, and on hard they just beat the snot out of me. I had to die and retry on the 'butcher path' quest like three times.

But I have a bravery streak up to eleven now on hard, so I'm feelin' pretty good about things, all in all.

Lots of fun so far, folks! :)

[Ivan_Milic]

Yea,those shamans hit even harder now.

[janave]

20Pal - or - 18Pal/2Mnk are both very good choices, remember that hot swapping to an outfit is almost instaneous, in case you need to evade heavily. Swapping back needs a peaceful spot and a little time however.

The Barb with hireling is not even comparable to the well built/geared pallies survivability. Since the most dangerous attacks 95% come from enemy casters, Fighters/Barbs fail their saves a lot more. Getting held/disintegrated, no hireling heals you out. Added that DDO is not a dps game, save some raids, with the aboundance of effect weapons with U14, now you can really contribute in many ways with a good set of weapons. A dead dps is no dps, survivability is good, you can be the healers friend :).

While spellcasters get more powerful with level at the trainer, you will constanly need to be in search for weapons, keeping debuffers, and greater banes is a good idea, later some boss-beaters will be very useful.