What to do about rogue moving into epic levels?

[sephiroth1084]

Update w/more queries.

So, I'm looking at some of the new items from the MotU content, and wondering where I can slot/move any of my existing gear.

Right now I've got:
Eyes: Tinker's Goggles (+6 Int, Treason--do we know if this stacks with -20% reducers on items?--Disable Device +15 essentially, set bonus)
Head: Minos Legens -- this needs to get replaced somehow
Neck: Shintao Cord/Golden Guile (would love to epic this, but haven't been seeing seals or shards dropping at all lately)
Trinket: Epic Treasurehunter's Spyglass (+2 Int, +20 Spot, +20 Search, +3 enhancement UMD)
Shoulders: Radiance II greensteal clock +45 HP, Radiance Guard
Waist: Assassin belt (+6 Con, Proof Against Poison +6, set bonus for -20% threat and chance at Enervation on sneak attacks)
Hands: Tinker's Gloves (Dex +6, Exceptional Seeker +2, Open Lock +15, set bonus for SA +5 and True Seeing)
Feet: Boots of Propulsion
Wrists: Levik's Bracers (+6 Str, +20% Healing Amp)
Body: Black Dragon leathers/Epic Vuloorim Fighting Leathers
Ring 1: Assassin w/ +2 Str
Ring 2: Kyosho's w/ +2 Con

Basically, I'm wondering how I can upgrade some of my slots, while still maintaining the important effects I'm wearing. I'd prefer to have at least +6 Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wish on full-time (I like to Assassinate a lot, and have been using the Int-based Shadow Dancer abilities to good effect) and have poor enough saves without also losing stats there. Not sure there is anything that can replace +6 Int, +6 Dex, +5 SA, TS across 2 slots sufficiently. Also, would like to be able to get a Resist item in there somewhere, but again, not sure where that could go.

Ideas?
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So, I have a Str-based halfling Assassin who should probably be picking up both Precision and 2x Improved Sneak Attack with my epic feats, but which feats to keep? And how to adjust ability scores?

Right now I have:
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Improved Critical: Piercing
Power Attack
Sneak of Shadows (Rogue PL)
Toughness

And
Str 15
Dex 16
Con 15
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 9

I could start Dex at 16 and spend 3 level-ups plus a +2 tome to hit the requisite 21 Dex Dex, or hope for a +3 tome and 2 level-ups, or could go Dex-based, but that would mean sacrificing another feat to Weapon Finesse.

Which feats would you drop? Would you take Improved SA only once in order to fit back in one of the heroic feats you're having trouble fitting? How would you adjust your stats?

[.Revenga.]

Loosing another feat to weapon finesse is just a painful and a waste imo, i think we can agree there :-p

As a halfling i think you don't have a choice but to sacrifice one of your epic feats for precision, choosing between the two might be a harder choice, i'm doing some calc now but my feeling is that precision will net you more dps overall. One option is to drop PA, at high AC content -5 AB is about 2-3% extra hit chance, but loosing +5 base damage hurts quite a bit.

Then, if you're only getting one epic SA feat, getting the req 21dex might not be worth it anyway (esp with only +2 dex tome), khopesh prof (or rogue PL) are probably better choices.

I'd say farm some epic elite quests in the web to get a tasty +4 dex tome, or TR into the master race that human is ( yes i'm biased here and actually you shouldnt until the enhancement update is out :-p)

Edit: Seems like you're right about precision being a no brainer, it adds 6+ damage on a regular sneak attack for a not very specially geared lvl 25 rogue assasin shadowdancer, and it only increases as damage goes up by buffs and gear. The fort bypass is just extra.

[shadereaper33]

keep in mind that precision and power attack are both offensive stances, so you can only have one active at a time. Personally, I dropped power attack in favor of precision on my rogue, and I am enjoying it quite a bit.

[karl_k0ch]

The main argument against PA is that it might decrease your to to-hit, but then, unless something was changed, we are supposed to get glancing blows which still apply SA damage.

For my halfling, the SA damage looks like this, not including the situational bonus of the SoS clickie:
10d6 rogue
4d6 capstone
3d6 assassin
6d6 (or only 5?) shadowdancer
3d6 1x ISA
12 enhancement
8 item
1 past life
6 halfling
----
118 average SA damage.

Even if the mob has only 5% fortification left after all the debuffs, precision will grant more than 5 damage per hit.
Precision will not increase the sneak attack damage against 0% fort mobs, but the +5% to hit will be helpful still.


My plan for meinir is the following, and will be done when I get my hands on a +3 dex or +4 dex tome:

14 str
18 dex
14 con
15 int
8 wis
8 cha

With a Litany, and all the +skills bonuses, this will grant HPs in the lower 500s and a standing UMD of 40. I estimate the assassinate dc to be at 46-48.

The planned feats are:

Toughness
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
PL:SoS
IC: Pierce*
Precision
ISA
Hamstring (?)


*I also considered IC: Slash here to improve EMG, going with Scimitars instead of rapiers. The proficiency would be granted via Master's Touch and/or a dual-boxed elven Cleric.

[destiny4405]

16/18/15/10/8/8 planned for mine. got +3 dex tome, so enough for ISA. for feats, i guess there is no point in having PA and precision. might not be doing anything on 0% fort, but with precision i'll have 60% fort bypass, which is huge.

[DnD3]

Heard that the Improved Sneak attack feat got changed so you cannot take it twice just before the beta ended, in fact last I checked description on live it did not state anywhere you can take it twice unlike some other feats. Can anyone confirm that you actually take it twice on live? Every 25 rogue i ask don't seem to have a +3 dex tome LOL..

[sephiroth1084]

Heard that the Improved Sneak attack feat got changed so you cannot take it twice just before the beta ended, in fact last I checked description on live it did not state anywhere you can take it twice unlike some other feats. Can anyone confirm that you actually take it twice on live? Every 25 rogue i ask don't seem to have a +3 dex tome LOL..
If that's true, I'll either take Power Attack at 24 or a second Toughness, and when I eventually TR again, I'll probably go Finesse and put off one of the Heroic feats until then.

[DnD3]

If that's true, I'll either take Power Attack at 24 or a second Toughness, and when I eventually TR again, I'll probably go Finesse and put off one of the Heroic feats until then.

If you or anyone can find a 25 Rogue on your server, please ask him if you can take ISA twice, on my server it seems eppic rogues are in danger of extinction. Actually I might do a server hop and see if someone on other servers can answer this question.

[DnD3]

If you or anyone can find a 25 Rogue on your server, please ask him if you can take ISA twice, on my server it seems eppic rogues are in danger of extinction. Actually I might do a server hop and see if someone on other servers can answer this question.

Yup, Improved Sneak attack cannot be taken more than once. Finally found a 25 rogue that had the require dex and he confirmed that you cannot choose it twice.

[Qezuzu]

Yup, Improved Sneak attack cannot be taken more than once. Finally found a 25 rogue that had the require dex and he confirmed that you cannot choose it twice.

Also, confirming, as someone with a lvl25 rogue.

ISA can only be taken once.
ISA is currently broken and does nothing.
The Deadly Shadows capstone is currently broken and does nothing but give +2 INT.
The Shadowdancer SA bonus is +6d6 and is working.

[SSFWEl]

Also, confirming, as someone with a lvl25 rogue.


ISA is currently broken and does nothing.

Nuts I already took it :(

Hmm I still have a free feat exchange...

[Rauven]

Nuts I already took it :(

Hmm I still have a free feat exchange...

Fred is broken.

I think I'm starting to notice a theme here.

[DDOGoz]

Does Precision allow SA on monsters that used to be immune (like undead and golems) the same way that Opportunist does?

[karl_k0ch]

Does Precision allow SA on monsters that used to be immune (like undead and golems) the same way that Opportunist does?

Opportunist does not allow to apply Sneak Attack damage to undead.

[sephiroth1084]

Does Precision allow SA on monsters that used to be immune (like undead and golems) the same way that Opportunist does?
Well, with Opportunist, Precision and Armor Piercing 10%, I'm seeing SA on the training dummy, and I think I've seen some pop up on undead and golems in Epic VoN 5, but I wasn't really paying close attention.

[Blank_Zero]

Fred is broken.

I think I'm starting to notice a theme here.

Fred works fine unless they've messed him up with a stealth patch. I've swapped 2 feats already through him.

[Qezuzu]

Does Precision allow SA on monsters that used to be immune (like undead and golems) the same way that Opportunist does?

Some golems, undead, and elementals will take SA damage if you can bypass fort. Some will not.

The Shadowdancer innate capstone ability lets you outright remove any immunity they have, though, but you still need to penetrate their fort.

[thouston]

Fred works fine....


worked for me as well.

i havent tried Kruz the Reincarnation trainer in House Jorasco since the update

[Rauven]

Fred works fine unless they've messed him up with a stealth patch. I've swapped 2 feats already through him.

Figures Turbine couldn't be bothered to update the Known Issues list (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1755313&postcount=1).


NEW - Fred is not currently offering feat respecs. This is something that will be re-enabled in the near future.

[jejeba86]

Also, confirming, as someone with a lvl25 rogue.

ISA can only be taken once.


I think, just think, that the intended is to be able to pick multiple (2) times, and this should be a bug.
That's the case for the monk feat, and I remember devs treating these two the same way in closed beta.

[Xalir]

Imho, the new way for rogues assassins is full DEX/INT, dual-wielding eMG, twisting tier4 Unyielding Sentinel or Fury of the Wild weapon alignment buff, twisting the tier 1 1.5 more W and tier 2 3% Doublestrike from Grandmaster of Flower. If you don't go into Shadowdancer, you could twist the +6 DC to Assassinate instead of the 3% Doublestrike.

However I think, there is no reason to take anything else as a primary ED than Shadowdancer. If the bugs are fixed with Devourer and Executioner Strike we are talking about 4 instakill-mechanics on different cool downs. Hard to beat and hard to not top the kill count in any group.

[jejeba86]

Imho, the new way for rogues assassins is full DEX/INT, dual-wielding eMG, twisting tier4 Unyielding Sentinel or Fury of the Wild weapon alignment buff, twisting the tier 1 1.5 more W and tier 2 3% Doublestrike from Grandmaster of Flower. If you don't go into Shadowdancer, you could twist the +6 DC to Assassinate instead of the 3% Doublestrike.

However I think, there is no reason to take anything else as a primary ED than Shadowdancer. If the bugs are fixed with Devourer and Executioner Strike we are talking about 4 instakill-mechanics on different cool downs. Hard to beat and hard to not top the kill count in any group.

Exactly what I plan!

[thomhas_of_mabar]

Does anyone know if the Legendary Dreadnought's Volcano's Edge ability/skill works on short swords or rapiers?
The ability looks awesome. If so, this is worth slotting as a twist of fate.

[karl_k0ch]

Does anyone know if the Legendary Dreadnought's Volcano's Edge ability/skill works on short swords or rapiers?
The ability looks awesome. If so, this is worth slotting as a twist of fate.

It does: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4464675&postcount=2


Bastard Sword, Dagger, Falchion, Greatsword, Kama, Khopesh, Kukri, Longsword, Rapier, Scimitar, Shortsword, Sickle.

[sephiroth1084]

Imho, the new way for rogues assassins is full DEX/INT, dual-wielding eMG, twisting tier4 Unyielding Sentinel or Fury of the Wild weapon alignment buff, twisting the tier 1 1.5 more W and tier 2 3% Doublestrike from Grandmaster of Flower. If you don't go into Shadowdancer, you could twist the +6 DC to Assassinate instead of the 3% Doublestrike.

However I think, there is no reason to take anything else as a primary ED than Shadowdancer. If the bugs are fixed with Devourer and Executioner Strike we are talking about 4 instakill-mechanics on different cool downs. Hard to beat and hard to not top the kill count in any group.
All of the weapon buffs from Sentinel are tied to the stances, and the +1.5[W] from Grandmaster is tied to being centered. You could give up wearing armor for that, but with PRR and AC mattering a bit, I'm not sure it's worth doing so. The doublestrike I believe works regardless, though.

Fury of the Wild's Evil Outsider Bane + Cold Iron seems like a good twist, but I don't know if I really want to spend levels in there.

For quick, useful twists, I'm thinking the +40% Fortification and +2 saves from tier 1 Sentinel looks pretty good. Maybe 3% Dodge from Grandmaster along with the doublestrike.

[Scortius]

I've thinking about the stacking 9 Spell Resistance (Serenity) from Grandmaster of Flowers. I have an item giving me 30, so could hit 39, or maybe 41. SR41 would have been very strong in the old content- not sure what kind of SR checks various casters in new content or in EE's can make.

If it would save me from getting held when I didn't have a source of FoM, it might be a pretty good quality of life upgrade.

Edit: I'm informed that this doesn't work the way I thought at the moment

[sephiroth1084]

Updated OP with wondering regarding gear in the new content.

[Tid12]

All of the weapon buffs from Sentinel are tied to the stances, and the +1.5[W] from Grandmaster is tied to being centered. You could give up wearing armor for that, but with PRR and AC mattering a bit, I'm not sure it's worth doing so. The doublestrike I believe works regardless, though.

Fury of the Wild's Evil Outsider Bane + Cold Iron seems like a good twist, but I don't know if I really want to spend levels in there.

For quick, useful twists, I'm thinking the +40% Fortification and +2 saves from tier 1 Sentinel looks pretty good. Maybe 3% Dodge from Grandmaster along with the doublestrike.

On my rog, dex build, I'm planning:

ED with Twists:

- Tunnel Vision (1d12 dmg extra, yes please)
- Sense weakness (not sure, I like Volcano's edge too and also Primal scream, Healing spring, Alignment twists..a lot of things I like)
- 40% fort from US


Also, I'm not sure the "Take x1 ISA" is a bug anymore, no dev commented in the various threads. For now, I'm just planning to take ISA and Precision on my Epic feats.

[sephiroth1084]

On my rog, dex build, I'm planning:

ED with Twists:

- Tunnel Vision (1d12 dmg extra, yes please)
- Sense weakness (not sure, I like Volcano's edge too and also Primal scream, Healing spring, Alignment twists..a lot of things I like)
- 40% fort from US


Also, I'm not sure the "Take x1 ISA" is a bug anymore, no dev commented in the various threads. For now, I'm just planning to take ISA and Precision on my Epic feats.
I'm not thrilled about a Fort penalty on my already squishy rogue--I guess the extra Fort twist in compensates for that.
Sense Weakness looks good, but is a rather high level twist.

[Tid12]

I'm not thrilled about a Fort penalty on my already squishy rogue--I guess the extra Fort twist in compensates for that.
Sense Weakness looks good, but is a rather high level twist.

The extra fort twist is kinda mandatory in the new pack and EE. In EE, they bypass a lot of fort and crit for a lot of damage. I'm getting it even on my sorc.

Sense weakness, I don't know yet but it looks powerfull. I will try it tomorrow on my rogue and let you know how that works.

[soloist12]

Imo i'd twist a few more defensive abilities, as a high isa rogue with 50% or more fort bypass with epic weapons doesn't really need more offense. Though, shadowform and 20% base dodge along with uncanny/displace emergencies seems to have helped my assassin dramatically.

In truth, i have no idea what to twist.. :/

[destiny4405]

for regular quests and easy raids, i go with fatesinger and fey spring/healing spring/brace for impact twists.

for max dps, i go with SD and sense weakness/tunnel vision/imp martial arts twists.

[Tid12]

Just tried FotW and Sense weakness/Tunnel Vision and...wow, I'm amazed.

The damage from Sense weakness is soo powerfull. I'll sure twist it in on my rogue. Adrenaline is awesome and the epic moment of this destiny is some big dps and not too hard to charge. I think I did some 1k+ damage with it with some lucky crit.

On boss raid fights, I'm actually thinking to go for FotW. When there is a lot of trash and normal question, I'll probably switch to SD.

So, for my rogue, finesse build, I'll probably twist:

- Sense Weakness
- Reign if they fix it/Tunnel vision
- Brace for impact