Rogues and OTWF?

[RS-Makk]

For you rogues that do not take OTWF.. do you run around with a light weapon on the offhand (and deal with the damage penalty of having say.. a short sword instead of a rapier), or a full size and deal with the to hit penalty? (or.. do you find OTWF to be one of those feats you have to fit in)

[Trifikas]

I splashed in a couple levels of Ranger to get all the feats I wanted. When I hit 18 (16 right now) I'm gonna LR to pure rogue and the plan is to dump OTWF and deal with the -2 penalty. Aren't rogues usually getting a flanking bonus while Sneak Attacking anyway? Curious as to what others would do before I do that though.

[Arkenvis]

I'm sure others will agree with me when I say: OTWF is a poor feat investment for a rogue (barring builds that are designed to take advantage of exotic weapons like the khopesh, and even then, it's iffy).

Consider: A rapier only has one more point of critical threat range.

Plus, even on a strength build rogue, most of an offhand weapon's damage will be from sneak attacks.

On top of that, the number of named short swords with good "support" abilities is greater than the number of rapiers with the same traits. Unless you have ready access to high damage proc GS/Alchemical rapiers, more often than not you're better off sticking to the lighter offhand weapons for their other benefits.

Edited to remove incorrect rapier damage info. Thanks to Noctus and captain1z for calling me on the error. (No seriously. I'd rather have to fix a mistake and feel like an idiot for a few minutes than have it go unchecked and look like one forever.)

[Kmnh]

On the old system, once you have enough gear to-hit ceases to be a problem. It might change with this update, as 2% chance of hitting the mob is worth more than 3 damage.

[RS-Makk]

I'm sure others will agree with me when I say: OTWF is a poor feat investment for a rogue (barring builds that are designed to take advantage of exotic weapons like the khopesh, and even then, it's iffy).

Consider: A rapier only does an average of 1 more base damage than a short sword (4.5 over 3.5), has the same critical multiplier, and only one more point of critical threat range.

Plus, even on a strength build rogue, most of an offhand weapon's damage will be from sneak attacks.

On top of that, the number of named short swords with good "support" abilities is greater than the number of rapiers with the same traits. Unless you have ready access to high damage proc GS/Alchemical rapiers, more often than not you're better off sticking to the lighter offhand weapons for their other benefits.

I agree the math works out great for trash.. lots of great options there for SS's. Now for boss beaters - the difference is higher (really due to the crit stuff). So I guess the question then is; for boss beaters - do you craft a rapier + rapier, or settle for rapier + short sword?

[Arkenvis]

I agree the math works out great for trash.. lots of great options there for SS's. Now for boss beaters - the difference is higher (really due to the crit stuff). So I guess the question then is; for boss beaters - do you craft a rapier + rapier, or settle for rapier + short sword?

Personally, I've stuck with the light offhand weapons in the old combat system. For beaters, the only real edge is the 5% gain for on-crit procs, IF you can afford the extra penalty to hit (the new system may favor dual rapiers more, I haven't had a chance to play with yet, the update is downloading painfully slow for me).

[Bolo_Grubb]

on my Str based Assassin rogue I always use either the epic small balde from the cove or the envenomed blade from Lords of dust in my off hand. Works very well for me.

[RS-Makk]

on my Str based Assassin rogue I always use either the epic small balde from the cove or the envenomed blade from Lords of dust in my off hand. Works very well for me.

Even against bosses with dr?

[Shunlee123]

Against bosses, I dual wield a pair of turbulent epees. So I have taken the OTWF feat.

[Shunlee123]

Also, against trashes, I wield RadII rapier and Epic elemental rapier of air. So OTWF feat is also helpful here.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I would definitely avoid OTWF unless it's changed in U14 and I've missed it. In general it's a horrible feat and rogues can't afford to splash or to give up anything else for it.

TWF, ITWF, GTWF
Precision, Improved Critical: Piercing/Slashing
Toughness
Past Life: Sneak of Shadows or Hamstring or EWP: Khopesh

All of the "or" feats are much better than OTWF.

Shortswords and rapiers have exactly the same damage (d6) but +1 threat range giving ~9% damage I think vs 0 fort targets with that one weapon. This is a nice boost but the trick is that you can still dual wield rapiers and then swap to rapier/shortsword when AC becomes an issue (which is a rare occurrence).

For trash I'd be going Scimitar/Epic Midnight Greetings anyway.

[ZeebaNeighba]

I would definitely avoid OTWF unless it's changed in U14 and I've missed it. In general it's a horrible feat and rogues can't afford to splash or to give up anything else for it.

TWF, ITWF, GTWF
Precision, Improved Critical: Piercing/Slashing
Toughness
Past Life: Sneak of Shadows or Hamstring or EWP: Khopesh

All of the "or" feats are much better than OTWF.

Shortswords and rapiers have exactly the same damage (d6) but +1 threat range giving ~9% damage I think vs 0 fort targets with that one weapon. This is a nice boost but the trick is that you can still dual wield rapiers and then swap to rapier/shortsword when AC becomes an issue (which is a rare occurrence).

For trash I'd be going Scimitar/Epic Midnight Greetings anyway.Now with the update it is still taking away a -2 to hit penalty which will matter until your attack bonus is 2x the opponent's AC but it will matter a lot less, if there were no changes to the TWF penalties without OTWF.

[RS-Makk]

Wow - Precision looks real nice now.

What are you going for regarding special abilities in the new world order? Is Crippling Strike back in the mix now as end game viable? (stat damage works again on epics right?.. which by the way.. does that bring back WoPs?)

[DarkPhoenix888]

As a dex rogue assassin I usually use the Epic Midnight Greetings in my off hand (light weapon), but against double DR bosses (like Arraetrikos, Queen Lailat, Lord of Blades etc) I dual wield +5 holy burst rapiers of greater bane. I don't ever see myself wasting a precious feat on OTWF for these kind of battles since I only miss on a natural 1 (and in the new upcoming system +/-2 to hit won't matter much). Also, I didn't have anything significant to do with my last 2 AP, so I put them in Drow Racial Weapon Attack I, which somewhat offsets dual wielding rapiers.

[Noctus]

Consider: A rapier only does an average of 1 more base damage than a short sword (4.5 over 3.5), has the same critical multiplier, and only one more point of critical threat range.

This is wrong.

Rapier: 1d6, 18-20/x2
Shortsword: 1d6, 19-20/x2

[captain1z]

This is wrong.

Rapier: 1d6, 18-20/x2
Shortsword: 1d6, 19-20/x2


Was gonna say exactly this.

Also, for a rogue, it doesnt really matter what weapons you are using. Your straight up damage will be low no matter what.
D4, d6, d8......doesnt really matter.

You should be counting on the #D6+15 extra sneak attack damage you are doing as your bread and butter.

But to answer the question, d6 rapier in the main hand, d6 s.sword in the off hand. Off hand has +10 crit item and the main has a variable burst of deception item. Not 100% reliable but effective.