Arcane Archers, 10k stars Vs. Pure Vs. 12fighter/6ranger/2monk

[conanj77]

Title implies what this thread is about.

Arcane Archers, which are the best?

A 10k stars?

A Pure Ranger?

Or

A 12Fighter/6ranger/2monk(Longbow Kensei II)
Okay so first thing is first, Remember to be an Arcane Archer (with slayer arrows) you need 2 things:
#1. 18 levels of ranger, or 20 levels as an Elf or Half elf, so no 10kstars Warforged, the slayer arrows are what arcane archers exist for.
#2. A spell point bar, no SP=no AA, hence why most builds have 6ranger(spells and manyshot :D)

Post arguments, builds or even complements, just keep it forum friendly.

Remember, the question is

What is the best Arcane Archer? 10k stars? Pure ranger??? Helven/Elven Kensei II/manyshot/monk splash(ranger6/fighter12/monk2)?????

CJ Out!

[Samiusbot]

12monk 6 ranger 2 figher...aka bowonk there is a thread or two. Search foo on.

[karl_k0ch]

Largely depends on your playstyle.

10k Stars is the best over all ranged damage, needs you to keep your KI up, and supports an active combat due to monk abilities.
Pure ranger offers a decent melee package, but lacks against non-FEs.
Kensai-based is similar to the pure ranger, has better non-situational ranged damage, but less melee damage.

[Kawai]

Largely depends on your playstyle.

10k Stars is the best over all ranged damage, needs you to keep your KI up, and supports an active combat due to monk abilities.
Pure ranger offers a decent melee package, but lacks against non-FEs.
Kensai-based is similar to the pure ranger, has better non-situational ranged damage, but less melee damage.

Yellow = +1 ;)
I'm currently on me third life with the Kensai II. Should call it fourth as i went all the way to 20 on first life as a pure Ranger and then used multiple hearts of wood (expensive, yea :eek:) top get the build "just right". :cool:
In addition to what you've already stated, i mainly did it to access all the other ranged feats that a fighter has access to, along with more HP. :)
~ps: too much rep given out laST 24, -soon as its off timer you will get it.;)

[Thrudh]

A wisdom-based 10k stars build lets you shoot more arrows per second than any other build, doesn't it?

Also monk speed and abundant step (and ranger sprint boost) are very useful for a character that wants to keep his distance from his targets.

I have 12/6/2 monk/ranger/fighter (I actually built this build BEFORE 10k stars came out)...

but I'm looking at 12/6/2 monk/ranger/artificer as an interesting variation that might be even better for the UMD, free rapid reload feat, and maybe even traps. (although you lose a feat)

[Moltier]

If you use your bow all the time, then a monk splash version wins.
If you like to melee too, then the 12fighter/6ranger/2monk helf will do the most dps.
At least untill update. Then you can have mana bar without caster class, so i guess things will change.

[sephiroth1084]

At least untill update. Then you can have mana bar without caster class, so i guess things will change.
How?

[Diyon]

How?

Epic destinies. Or maybe just having a spell point item on.

[sephiroth1084]

Epic destinies. Or maybe just having a spell point item on.
I doubt having an SP item will allow you to get AA, since no other items count for qualifying for anything (feats, enhancements, PrEs, etc...).

As for the epic destinies, that's a long time to wait to pick up AA. Do we know that they will definitely allow you to get the PrE? Do you have to respec your enhancements if you swap to a destiny that doesn't grant SP? Do any of the relevant archery destinies grant SP? I didn't think they did (Shiradi, Shadowdancer, Grandmaster)...that's a pretty big investment to be able to go pure non-Ranger AA (or just not bother with a blue-bar dip).

Doesn't seem worth it to me, even if it does work. Now, if the sorcerer PL finally would count, that would be a different story. Does anyone know if this is working as desired?

[FuzzyDuck81]

If you use your bow all the time, then a monk splash version wins.
If you like to melee too, then the 12fighter/6ranger/2monk helf will do the most dps.
At least untill update. Then you can have mana bar without caster class, so i guess things will change.

You'll have a mana bar, but iirc thats more to allow use of some of the epic destiny abiities... you still wont qualify for AA since you need to have the enhancement or mental toughness feat, unless some prereqs are changed considerably.

i've had the pure ranger which i TRed into the 12monk/6ranger/2fighter build (not tried the kensai one), and i prefer the monk-based one - though it is a little annoying having to periodically switch to melee to charge ki for 10k stars, but it has plenty of feats & extra durability vs. the pure ranger one, however self healing is a little trickier since i need to switch out for heal scrolls (yay cleric dilly) instead of being able to fire off a CSW.

I think the assessment above sounds about right though - kensai will have better base damage vs. all enemies but be a lot more single-role focussed, whereas the monk one will be a more well-rounded character with the added advantages of better healing amp, improved evasion & better saves

[krackythehoodedone]

Their are others

Ok i'm not straying off topic in an attempt to hi jack the thread. Their are other viable ranged builds the OP hasnt mentioned, probably because he wasnt aware of them.

Firstly the top Ranged DPS build is a 18/1/1 FB3 Bowbarian. I have seen screenies of this build doing 1k dam with a single arrow. Against one opponent for 20 seconds nothing comes close. Downside is terribly feat starved and cant even afford IPS so for me its not really a ''Ranged'' build but it deserves a mention.

Old Crit Rage Bowbarb. Crits on 13 with E Thorn, has all ranged feats and as long as mobs arent immune to Crits is very difficult to beat especially if weapon is proccing on Crit. Reason i mention this build now is because as most of you know Crit Rage is not an option as we speak even though some old timers still have it. However one option for the reworking of Feats which apparently is coming after new expansion is to bring back this line of feats which will once again make it accessible to all and as such also deserves a mention.

Out of the other builds i think top for DPS on Khyber is a tweaked version of a Helves Angel with a 2 Barb splash. ( I cant remember toons name buts its one of the Revenants). I like the Helves Angel over the Monkcher even though i am aware the Zen Archery builds fire more shots.

If you are really serious about a top ranged build it will require lots of work. IE 3 Ranger PL and Monk as well and a Pal PL on Helves Angel for maximum ranged DPS

[Kawai]

...Firstly the top Ranged DPS build is a 18/1/1 FB3 Bowbarian.

Kudos... the Barbs can make great Archers as well...
~I think anyone building should first consider thier own playstyle and the vision of what they want thier toons to accomplish and how they compliment each other respectively. ;)

As for the naysayers... meh... take them to PvP and make them cry*. :D
*at least once every few months to keep your sanity and confidence.

[conanj77]

*facepalm*

I forgot lots of builds like Kracky said...

I can't believe i even forgot to mention Bardchers... Stupid CJ!

but yes, there are other builds, I was actually just trying to get feedback on those 3 types because those are the main 3 i was considering.

I was also wondering, could i make a 12fighter/6ranger/2artificer build and use manyshot bursts and then use runearm and repeater when on timer? kensei II heavy repeater or longbow... but no evasion :/ just an idea, think i saw it somewhere.

/Signed

CJ out!

[karl_k0ch]

I doubt having an SP item will allow you to get AA, since no other items count for qualifying for anything (feats, enhancements, PrEs, etc...).

Currently, the Sorcerer Past Life qualifies you as AA, but you will not have SP to actually cast your Arrow Imbues, thus making the benefits of AA moot.
If you get SP, you will actually be able to use them.

So you are right, you will still need an Enhancement or a Feat (MT or PL) to qualify for AA.

[ice584]

First life for my Ranger was 12-Rgr / 6-Ftr / 2-Mnk (Tempest/Kensai). Lots of fun, decent DPS. I played mostly TWF but had some decent ranged.

Second life is currently 11-Rgr / 9-Mnk (AA) H-elf Dilly Cleric. WIS/STR-based. She has stupid good survivability; when leveling I was frequently the last one alive, saving a wipe in PUGs. It's not top ranged or melee DPS I'm sure, but the tri-fecta of using wraps, longsword/kama, or ranged give some crazy fun versatility.

It's hard to choose, but I'd say she was my most enjoyable character to level to date. Even only mildly well geared atm she's a ton of fun to play in Epics.

For straight-up DPS, I'd say I'm about a tie with a guildie's pure Ranger. He does more damage per hit, but my 10k stars helps make up for that. And when he's dead and I'm still standing I do way more DPS. :)

Just my 2 cp.

[Kawai]

Also... beware.....

This is how we see ourselves.... :)
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080611134414/forgottenrealms/images/thumb/4/43/Arcane_Archer.jpg/250px-Arcane_Archer.jpg

and this is how the mighty Casters and Melee see us.... :mad:
http://s1.hubimg.com/u/4409272_f260.jpg

So screw'm... Just PvP them, or give a hearty
lecture to the hand, baby. :cool:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_qzzIsbPQXq0/TQBK-830O5I/AAAAAAAABYU/rTlZqDNazKg/s1600/Talk_to_the_Hand_by_Marypops.jpg
/sarcasm OFF (don't neg me bro!) :eek:

[ShadowFlash]

Yellow = +1 ;)
I'm currently on me third life with the Kensai II. Should call it fourth as i went all the way to 20 on first life as a pure Ranger and then used multiple hearts of wood (expensive, yea :eek:) top get the build "just right". :cool:
In addition to what you've already stated, i mainly did it to access all the other ranged feats that a fighter has access to, along with more HP. :)
~ps: too much rep given out laST 24, -soon as its off timer you will get it.;)

I got him for ya :)

ShadowFlash

[Kawai]

I got him for ya :)

ShadowFlash

cheerz, Luv... back atcha ;)

[Thrudh]

Currently, the Sorcerer Past Life qualifies you as AA, but you will not have SP to actually cast your Arrow Imbues, thus making the benefits of AA moot.
If you get SP, you will actually be able to use them.

And there's a epic destiny that gives you SP, even if you're a pure fighter, so with that and the Sorc PL, you can actually be pure fighter AA...

But not until you get to level 20+

[sephiroth1084]

Their are others

Ok i'm not straying off topic in an attempt to hi jack the thread. Their are other viable ranged builds the OP hasnt mentioned, probably because he wasnt aware of them.

Firstly the top Ranged DPS build is a 18/1/1 FB3 Bowbarian. I have seen screenies of this build doing 1k dam with a single arrow. Against one opponent for 20 seconds nothing comes close. Downside is terribly feat starved and cant even afford IPS so for me its not really a ''Ranged'' build but it deserves a mention.

Old Crit Rage Bowbarb. Crits on 13 with E Thorn, has all ranged feats and as long as mobs arent immune to Crits is very difficult to beat especially if weapon is proccing on Crit. Reason i mention this build now is because as most of you know Crit Rage is not an option as we speak even though some old timers still have it. However one option for the reworking of Feats which apparently is coming after new expansion is to bring back this line of feats which will once again make it accessible to all and as such also deserves a mention.

Out of the other builds i think top for DPS on Khyber is a tweaked version of a Helves Angel with a 2 Barb splash. ( I cant remember toons name buts its one of the Revenants). I like the Helves Angel over the Monkcher even though i am aware the Zen Archery builds fire more shots.

If you are really serious about a top ranged build it will require lots of work. IE 3 Ranger PL and Monk as well and a Pal PL on Helves Angel for maximum ranged DPS
Eh. 18 barb is 7 feats, 1 ranger (Bow Strength) and 1 wizard (Mental Toughness), gets you Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Improved Critical, and Improved Precise Shot...except you need Power Attack and Cleave to qualify for Frenzied Berserker. Even with large damage per shot, you're going to be way behind any melees for DPS with your slow attack speed, and won't have IPS (as you pointed out) to make up for that.

Currently, the Sorcerer Past Life qualifies you as AA, but you will not have SP to actually cast your Arrow Imbues, thus making the benefits of AA moot.
If you get SP, you will actually be able to use them.

So you are right, you will still need an Enhancement or a Feat (MT or PL) to qualify for AA.
Again, that's a long time to wait on getting into AA. If you don't mind paying a different sort of character until you hit 20, then that's attractive...

[karl_k0ch]

Again, that's a long time to wait on getting into AA. If you don't mind paying a different sort of character until you hit 20, then that's attractive...
Active Past Lives are ML 3, not ML 20.

[Thrudh]

Active Past Lives are ML 3, not ML 20.

But the Epic Destiny that gives you SP so you can use your AA abilities doesn't work until you are 20+

[LeLoric]

But the Epic Destiny that gives you SP so you can use your AA abilities doesn't work until you are 20+

Sp items give you spell points no matter which class with the expansion. You can make a 300 sp shroud item and be set from level 11 on. Before then theres popx's or crafted magi stuff.

[sephiroth1084]

Active Past Lives are ML 3, not ML 20.


Sp items give you spell points no matter which class with the expansion. You can make a 300 sp shroud item and be set from level 11 on. Before then theres popx's or crafted magi stuff.
So, we could grab the sorc PL and equip an SP item and both qualify for, and use, Arcane Archer throughout heroic levels without otherwise picking up blue bar class levels?

[LeLoric]

So, we could grab the sorc PL and equip an SP item and both qualify for, and use, Arcane Archer throughout heroic levels without otherwise picking up blue bar class levels?

Yes.

[sephiroth1084]

Yes.
That opens up some possibilities...

Curious as to what combination ends up making for the strongest overall archer then. I imagine 6 monk for 10K Stars beats most other options, but if the base damage is high enough, or crits are big enough...

[Glenalth]

The Sorc past life gives you SP too, so you can get right into it.

[LeLoric]

That opens up some possibilities...

Curious as to what combination ends up making for the strongest overall archer then. I imagine 6 monk for 10K Stars beats most other options, but if the base damage is high enough, or crits are big enough...

I actually was considering a 20 monk w/ shiradi. With the monk capstone and serenity twisted in you would never have to melee as the passive ki gen would keep your ki up enough to fuel the 10k's. Very possibly the first 100% bow use viable dps build.

[sephiroth1084]

I actually was considering a 20 monk w/ shiradi. With the monk capstone and serenity twisted in you would never have to melee as the passive ki gen would keep your ki up enough to fuel the 10k's. Very possibly the first 100% bow use viable dps build.
Yeah, that's one of the notions I was entertaining as well. Was thinking that I could manage that even without the capstone, swapping to Water and sneaking periodically on a 12 monk/ build, but the capstone really pumps that up. With the twist and cap, you're at 30 Ki/min, can turn on Water 3 for 40/min, and sneak for 50/min if you like (between fights, during buffing, while someone is doing traps, etc...). That should be enough to keep up 10K Stars and for the occasional Abundant Step or Shadow Fade.

You're still rather tight on feats, though...10 feats and you want to fit in Dodge, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, IPS, Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Zen Archery, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Bow Strength, Arcane Prodigy, Toughness (can skip this as a start).

[LeLoric]

Yeah, that's one of the notions I was entertaining as well. Was thinking that I could manage that even without the capstone, swapping to Water and sneaking periodically on a 12 monk/ build, but the capstone really pumps that up. With the twist and cap, you're at 30 Ki/min, can turn on Water 3 for 40/min, and sneak for 50/min if you like (between fights, during buffing, while someone is doing traps, etc...). That should be enough to keep up 10K Stars and for the occasional Abundant Step or Shadow Fade.

You're still rather tight on feats, though...10 feats and you want to fit in Dodge, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, IPS, Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Zen Archery, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Bow Strength, Arcane Prodigy, Toughness (can skip this as a start).

Yep feats suck here. Got combat archery as a choice too for your epics (although qualifying for this is a pain.)

Could look at a 2 ftr split i guess and not have the capstone although I like this a lot cause it not only gives the passive regen but a healthy concentration boost for keeping higher amounts of ki and the +2 wis.

Or even a 1 ftr/1 druid split, i know this negates the whole no spellcaster thing but it gives access to rams might (shiradi gives +1 casrer level) and lesser vigor (this works great with monk healing amp)

Maybe something like the following.

18 monk/1 ftr/1 druid

36 point build
16 str 4 other level ups here
16 dex +3 tome +2 level ups (21)
14 con
16 wis

Grandmaster earth and water stances (water is better when under 10k stars than earth for dps)

Feats:

1 point blank shot
3 Arcane prodigy
6 rapid shot
9 bow str
12 many shot
15 ic ranged
18 precise shot
21 imp precise shot
24 combat archery

ftr 1 wf ranged

monk 1 dodge
monk 2 zen archery
monk 6 toughness (have to take this due to no other monk feats right?)

I'd love having two combat archery and I guess that would be the benefit of the two ftr build instead.

[ShadowFlash]

I'd love having two combat archery ...

Is that possible?

ShadowFlash

[sephiroth1084]

Yep feats suck here. Got combat archery as a choice too for your epics (although qualifying for this is a pain.)

Could look at a 2 ftr split i guess and not have the capstone although I like this a lot cause it not only gives the passive regen but a healthy concentration boost for keeping higher amounts of ki and the +2 wis.

Or even a 1 ftr/1 druid split, i know this negates the whole no spellcaster thing but it gives access to rams might (shiradi gives +1 casrer level) and lesser vigor (this works great with monk healing amp)

Maybe something like the following.

18 monk/1 ftr/1 druid
I feel like, if you're going to lose the monk capstone, you may as well go back down to 12 monk, since the difference between 12 and 18 is pretty minimal for a build like this, whereas getting in some extra feats and abilities seems much more useful.


36 point build
16 str 4 other level ups here
16 dex +3 tome +2 level ups (21)
14 con
16 wis
Why Str? Is this going to be at 95% chance to-hit? I think not, even with Wis bumps, and that's probably more important than the extra 3-5 damage per shot from the high starting Str and level-ups there.


Grandmaster earth and water stances (water is better when under 10k stars than earth for dps)
You need a +4 Con tome to get Grandmaster of Earth from a starting 14.


Feats:

1 point blank shot
3 Arcane prodigy
6 rapid shot
9 bow str
12 many shot
15 ic ranged
18 precise shot
21 imp precise shot
24 combat archery

ftr 1 wf ranged

monk 1 dodge
monk 2 zen archery
monk 6 toughness (have to take this due to no other monk feats right?)
You're right about Toughness. Hmm...And the order is kind of lackluster, with Manyshot and IPS pushed pretty far back in the build.

[LeLoric]

I feel like, if you're going to lose the monk capstone, you may as well go back down to 12 monk, since the difference between 12 and 18 is pretty minimal for a build like this, whereas getting in some extra feats and abilities seems much more useful.
Why Str? Is this going to be at 95% chance to-hit? I think not, even with Wis bumps, and that's probably more important than the extra 3-5 damage per shot from the high starting Str and level-ups there.
You need a +4 Con tome to get Grandmaster of Earth from a starting 14.
You're right about Toughness. Hmm...And the order is kind of lackluster, with Manyshot and IPS pushed pretty far back in the build.

The extra ki for more monk levels and tier 4 stances may be enough of a reason to go 18 monk if you are trying to do a full always on monk build. Future proofs for ninja III also *shrug*

Thing is you've almost taken every possible feat you can to up ranged dps. Could drop to more fighter levels but in reality what are you gonna get out of them? melee capability, but then there's better hybrid builds anyways and would not use shiradi. Weapon spec out of ftr levels is alright for more dmg I guess but fighter doesn't get you a whole lot more.

Having a good starting ki is pretty important if you want to always stay ranged.

As for str no it's not a 95% to hit build but the two wisdom brackets you would get aren't enough of a to hit bonus to really change things under the new system although I'd probably go wis after rethinking just for more 10k stars arrows.

You are right about tier 4 mountain stance but in hindsight you probably don't want tier 4 due to threat gen and will end up in water more anyways for ki gen, to hit, and 10k bonus arrows.

Yeah the feats suck during levelling this would be one of those really suck to level builds that doesn't really shine til much later or level it as something different and then lesser.

As for a hybrid melee type build I honestly would consider something along the lines of 13 rog/6 ranger/1 ftr shadowdancer. This opens up both improved sneak attack feats for 6d6 extra dmg, you generally want to be in sneak attack range anyways for point blank bonus.

When meleeing you are a 21d6 sneak dmg rog with the ability to pull up for a big manyshot when off timer.

[sephiroth1084]

The extra ki for more monk levels and tier 4 stances may be enough of a reason to go 18 monk if you are trying to do a full always on monk build. Future proofs for ninja III also *shrug*
The extra base/max Ki you mean? Yeah, that's attractive. tier 4 stances aren't much of an improvement over tier 3s, though. For Earth it's mostly downside for an archer with the increased threat gen, since the +1 to crits comes in at tier 3. Water can bump you up a Wis bracket, but there are plenty of ways to juggle that odd Wis score...maybe drop a point and free up some AP, and the extra 1% dodge isn't a really big deal.


Thing is you've almost taken every possible feat you can to up ranged dps. Could drop to more fighter levels but in reality what are you gonna get out of them? melee capability, but then there's better hybrid builds anyways and would not use shiradi. Weapon spec out of ftr levels is alright for more dmg I guess but fighter doesn't get you a whole lot more.
You can gain more to-hit and damage with fighter levels or barbarian levels, or work the switch-hitting back in via ranger or fighter, or pick up rogue for some sneak attack, skills, and Uncanny Dodge. You could pick up a Defender I for more Str, Con, HP, saves and AC. Not sure how many of these are really worthwhile, but 13-18 monk isn't too impressive when you aren't using handwraps or special attacks.


Having a good starting ki is pretty important if you want to always stay ranged.
True.

As for str no it's not a 95% to hit build but the two wisdom brackets you would get aren't enough of a to hit bonus to really change things under the new system although I'd probably go wis after rethinking just for more 10k stars arrows.
Well, the extra Wis could be meaningful vs. one enemy or another with the way the new to-hit system works (still don't like it), and, as you noted, there is the increased damage during 10K Stars from extra Wis brackets, both of which are doing more for you than Str is. Plus, if you lower Str a little (start at 14 or 12) you can put more points into Dex in order to hit Combat Archery, or Wis for more of the aforementioned benefits.


You are right about tier 4 mountain stance but in hindsight you probably don't want tier 4 due to threat gen and will end up in water more anyways for ki gen, to hit, and 10k bonus arrows.
What ends up being better overall, +1 to crit multiplier on a 17-20/x3 weapon, or the small chance of an extra arrow? I'm curious about this, since many of the other threads I've read concerning Zen Archers seem to promote a primarily Earth-stanced build.

As an aside, I still think Earth's +1 multiplier should get moved to Fire--sure, the Earth finisher and Fists of Iron are themed the same way, but Fire feels like it should be doing more DPS than the defensive stance.

Yeah the feats suck during levelling this would be one of those really suck to level builds that doesn't really shine til much later or level it as something different and then lesser.

What about...
1. Point Blank Shot
1. (Monk) Zen Archery
2. (Monk) Toughness
3. Rapid Shot
6. Precise Shot
6. (Monk) Dodge
9. Manyshot
12. Improved Critical
15. Weapon Focus
18. Improved Precise Shot or Arcane Prodigy depending on whether you value IPS or Slaying Arrows more highly (could also move IPS down to level 15)

That means delaying either AA or IPS until level 21, and then Combat Archery to 24. Not terrible, but not great, either.


As for a hybrid melee type build I honestly would consider something along the lines of 13 rog/6 ranger/1 ftr shadowdancer. This opens up both improved sneak attack feats for 6d6 extra dmg, you generally want to be in sneak attack range anyways for point blank bonus.

When meleeing you are a 21d6 sneak dmg rog with the ability to pull up for a big manyshot when off timer.
You'd want a lot of threat reduction on that!

[sephiroth1084]

Ugh! I left out Bow Strength!

[LeLoric]

Ugh! I left out Bow Strength!

Yep feats suck on ranged builds.

Hopefully the enhancement revamp that we may never see will reduce a lot of the silly requirements like they said it would.

[sephiroth1084]

Yep feats suck on ranged builds.

Hopefully the enhancement revamp that we may never see will reduce a lot of the silly requirements like they said it would.
What is it going to cut out, though? Mental Toughness for AA? Everything else is tied up in feat prerequisites, unless you mean Dodge for Ninja Spy, but then we're left in the same place we were if we wanted to dump Toughness--without another monk feat to go in that slot.

I'm hoping Deepwood Sniper ends up being competitive with 10K Stars, as I think I'd prefer that to AA (or that with a minor in AA).

Did the enhancement pass get pushed back again from the possible November date? I know it got pushed out of August. Really unhappy about that. The guys pulling the strings over there are getting a lot of negative marks in my book...the expansion should have been given more time to gestate, for the devs to work on it, polishing and such, for us to test, and for the devs to have time to incorporate the enhancement revamp as well.

And yeah, archery is a real strain on feats, which is part of the reason I'm always posting requests to the devs to make archery stronger--if the style takes up 10-12 feats, the least it could do is actually be worth using 100% of the time.

[LeLoric]

What is it going to cut out, though? Mental Toughness for AA? Everything else is tied up in feat prerequisites, unless you mean Dodge for Ninja Spy, but then we're left in the same place we were if we wanted to dump Toughness--without another monk feat to go in that slot.

I'm hoping Deepwood Sniper ends up being competitive with 10K Stars, as I think I'd prefer that to AA (or that with a minor in AA).

Did the enhancement pass get pushed back again from the possible November date? I know it got pushed out of August. Really unhappy about that. The guys pulling the strings over there are getting a lot of negative marks in my book...the expansion should have been given more time to gestate, for the devs to work on it, polishing and such, for us to test, and for the devs to have time to incorporate the enhancement revamp as well.

And yeah, archery is a real strain on feats, which is part of the reason I'm always posting requests to the devs to make archery stronger--if the style takes up 10-12 feats, the least it could do is actually be worth using 100% of the time.

I was mainly thinking wf ranged but yeah that's needed for manyshot perhaps remove that from manyshot prereq too it's not like it doesn't have enough other prereqs.

[maddmatt70]

I would say either 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 monk or 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 barbarian are the best builds. The playstyle is range on manyshot and melee when manyshot is on timer with the 12 fighter being specced to whatever is the melee weapons whether it is handwraps or khopeshes or even rapiers. This is the highest dps build that ranges at least some of the time in game. Just being honest here after playing 20 ranger, 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue, 11 ranger 9 monk, 12 monk 6 ranger 2 fighter, and 12 fighter 7 monk 1 artificer. 10k stars and manyshot and melee is not as good as manyshot and melee. This is very sad but it is true. The destinies do not change that one iota and in fact make it even more true..

[LeLoric]

I would say either 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 monk or 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 barbarian are the best builds. The playstyle is range on manyshot and melee when manyshot is on timer with the 12 fighter being specced to whatever is the melee weapons whether it is handwraps or khopeshes or even rapiers. This is the highest dps build that ranges at least some of the time in game. Just being honest here after playing 20 ranger, 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue, 11 ranger 9 monk, 12 monk 6 ranger 2 fighter, and 12 fighter 7 monk 1 artificer. 10k stars and manyshot and melee is not as good as manyshot and melee. This is very sad but it is true. The destinies do not change that one iota and in fact make it even more true..



The 13 rog/6 ranger/1ftr shadowdancer build I threw up earlier will out dps any of your above combos in both melee and ranged (as long as you are close enough but your builds want to be close enough also for point blank shot bonus)

7d6 sneak from rog, 6d6 from shadow dancer, 6d6 from improved sneak attack x2, 2d6 from assassin 2

21d6 + 25 sneak attack dmg is ridiculously good, couple that with full tiered haste boost, rams might, some favored enemy dmg etc. Add in some instakills via shadow dancer. This is the new top burst dps hybrid ranged/melee build.



Shiradi does change your situation quite a bit also as it offers nothing for melee and some pretty good ranged buffs enough to make a full time ranged bow build viable dps if it can keep its ki up which is the situation we were discussing.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Interesting discourse on the possibility of a no-heroic-blue-bar AA in U14. Possibly opens up some possibilities for the TR that I'm planning (was going to be 13 rogue/6 monk/1 artificer but could do 2 ranger or fighter to pick up some feats in this case).

Precision is looking like a pretty crucial feat for an archer as it's the only offensive stance available, provides +5% hit rate (opening up the possibility to get to 90 or 95% hit rate) and -25% fortification (important for ninja-spy, shadowdancer or rogue builds), in my above case though I have to drop dodge for it (which is okay, I wasn't too stoked about the 9 AP for 1d6 SA anyway, if I'd gone that way it would have been for the stealthy ki regen mainly as incorp is available from ghostly items).

I don't see 20 monk as being a worthwhile AA build as 13-20 monk doesn't add much DPS and I think it's possible to get a 100% ranged build if desired with GoF twist and water stance anyway. With most of the possible variations it just seems that 6 ranger remains a good option for rams might (+3 damage vs all) and 2 FEs (an extra +6 damage vs 2) and 6 feats (strength shot, rapid shot, TWF, diehard, precise shot, manyshot and improved two weapon fighting), even a pure archer build is going to prefer this to fighter (it's 4 ranged feats vs 4 ranged feats but a lot of other perks with ranger that fighter doesn't get).

My vote is still for 12 monk/6 ranger/2 artificer. Max damage, full UMD, traps (possibly) and all that other good stuff.

[JasonJi72]

I have a 12 Fighter, 6 Monk, 2 Artificer Cleric dillente Arcane Archer. The reasons why I went with that instead of 12 Monk are because not everything can be critted, and I wanted Haste Boost IV with Kensai II. My melee damage is actually respectable, and I really never have to worry about needing Ki, since I just melee in fire stance occasionally. The Artificer levels are for some UMD, better scroll use, and AA qualification. My Stunning Fist is in the 40's.

It requires a very high wisdom to shoot 3 arrows at a time consistently with 10k Stars, and even then you are still shooting 2 most of the time. Therefore I am leaning towards having enough wisdom to shoot 2 consistently so I could envest into more strength. Perhaps I will change my mind once I finish gearing up with some exceptional wisdom items though.

*sniffs* You guys were talking about whether Kensai II was better than a monk archer, and never mentioned a Kensai II monk archer... not feeling the love here guys... *cries*

My other Archer is a Bardcher, but I don't consider it a true archer since it doesn't have IPS, but it does have manyshot, slaying arrows, and dual kopeshes with Palladin dillente. IPS doesn't work all that well with fascinate anyway. :)

I like the idea of a heavy sneak attack monk archer, and I am considering making something like that on my final archer life.

[Kawai]

*sniffs* You guys were talking about whether Kensai II was better than a monk archer, and never mentioned a Kensai II monk archer... not feeling the love here guys... *cries*


I'll just repeat that it depends on your playstyle, skill, then your build.
It's all good! :)
~someday we will rule the world~
Casters cant outrange us... melee cant catch us... :D
/sarcasm OFF
No, seriously though, we're catching up in the balance department. Im really looking forward to the new changes. :rolleyes:

[FengXian]

Looks like I might get away with 12 monk 6 ranger 2 fighter until U14 then...I agree 13-20 monk might not be worth it. Also AC should probably get some consideration at this point.

[sephiroth1084]

My vote is still for 12 monk/6 ranger/2 artificer. Max damage, full UMD, traps (possibly) and all that other good stuff.
I was looking at the skills for this last night...I don't see how you can really get UMD, Concentration and trap skills up to sufficient levels. You could drop Spot, I guess, but you'd want that for hitting stealthy enemies, and with new quests and randomized trap locations coming out, dumping Spot doesn't seem like a great idea.

[Thrudh]

Yep feats suck on ranged builds.

Precise Shot is now free for rangers at level 4..

Very hard NOT to take 6 levels of ranger in any ranged build... You gain a TON of free feats (plus Ram's Might and two favored enemies)

[Thrudh]

The 13 rog/6 ranger/1ftr shadowdancer build I threw up earlier will out dps any of your above combos in both melee and ranged (as long as you are close enough but your builds want to be close enough also for point blank shot bonus)

I find shooting close enough to get sneak attack and point blank shot bonus to be problematic...

Kind of defeats the whole purpose of "raining death from afar" (i.e. when you're in-close you're getting hit back).

I move in close on boss fights, and some other fights as well, but usually, I stay farther back, and get my DPS up by using IPS effectively...

[maddmatt70]

The 13 rog/6 ranger/1ftr shadowdancer build I threw up earlier will out dps any of your above combos in both melee and ranged (as long as you are close enough but your builds want to be close enough also for point blank shot bonus)

7d6 sneak from rog, 6d6 from shadow dancer, 6d6 from improved sneak attack x2, 2d6 from assassin 2

21d6 + 25 sneak attack dmg is ridiculously good, couple that with full tiered haste boost, rams might, some favored enemy dmg etc. Add in some instakills via shadow dancer. This is the new top burst dps hybrid ranged/melee build.



Shiradi does change your situation quite a bit also as it offers nothing for melee and some pretty good ranged buffs enough to make a full time ranged bow build viable dps if it can keep its ki up which is the situation we were discussing.

I already looked at shadowdancer and it is the clear winner for ranged destinies so assume any of those builds I listed would have it. Sneak damage though in general is less reliable with ranged dps then you assert here so would prefer 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 fighter or barbarian shadowdancer 5 over this 13 rogue 6 ranger 1 fighter build you espouse. Nothing has changed from 1-20 heroic levels thus you have not convinced me that 13 rogue 6 ranger 1 fighter is better then 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 monk or barbarian unless you are arguing that the sneak damage from the epic feat pulls it ahead - not sure I agree.

Edit: Shiradi is less dps then LD and Shadowdancer which provides dps to both style so ranged dps all the time builds falls even further behind then it is now.

[Kawai]

I find shooting close enough to get sneak attack and point blank shot bonus to be problematic...

Agreed, this should b extended.... should! :mad:

...I move in close on boss fights, and some other fights as well, but usually, I stay farther back, and get my DPS up by using IPS effectively...

One of my main tactics is circle-strafing while using IPS, this is going to hurt/make me change up some things because of the new bonuses to damage while standing still... :rolleyes:

[barecm]

I know its not the highest damage, but I really like pure ranger due to my playstyle; which is mainly solo. With the expansion I am at nearly 700 hps unraged and 1000 sp (which I use). Dex is 40 and Str 36 unraged... I think primal scream does not stack with rage, so it goes to like 39 with primal scream maybe? Can't remember. I tweaked dex to 40 since I found +to hit important again on beta. With the epic bonuses, my UMD is around 43-44 with all boosts and such. With primal scream I am over 700 hps not including the fake hps from con ops or GH and such. If I ever want to go back and do 3 barb past lives, I will be over 700 hps with no buffs....which I may do.

I do a lot of self healing as well picking up the healing spring with 3 charges and twisted in primal scream and fast-healing. I am still debating the third one... I may not hit the hardest, but usually I am the one who, after everyone wipes, is the one who clears everything out and raises folks.

[Kawai]

I know its not the highest damage, but I really like pure ranger due to my playstyle...{snip} ...but usually I am the one who, after everyone wipes, is the one who clears everything out and raises folks.

Bingo on playstyle and comfy level...
and... isnt it always -we the ranged- who are usually the busiest collecting soulstones? ;)

[wax_on_wax_off]

I was looking at the skills for this last night...I don't see how you can really get UMD, Concentration and trap skills up to sufficient levels. You could drop Spot, I guess, but you'd want that for hitting stealthy enemies, and with new quests and randomized trap locations coming out, dumping Spot doesn't seem like a great idea.

It's a lot harder to do the skills right on a 12 monk/6 ranger than on an 11 ranger/6 monk but it's doable if you can accept so-so scores in some skills.

Before I do my final life into this build I'll figure out all the trap DCs and the gear that I have available to hit the exact scores for what is required (sustainable, no ship buffs of course). Once you include an enhancement item (upgraded bracers from reavers fate or tinkers set), +15 or +20 items, +11 int from items (or more with U14 gear), GH, skill boost, arti PL etc there really isn't any need for more than 10 ranks in search/disable I'm guessing.

Spot especially; +20 from item (spyglass or time sensing goggles), 50+ wisdom (at level 25) and wild instinct scrolls for the toughest quests and I bet 10 ranks is going to be fine (or less).

[Kawai]

It's a lot harder to do the skills right on a 12 monk/6 ranger than on an 11 ranger/6 monk but it's doable if you can accept so-so scores in some skills.

Before I do my final life into this build I'll figure out all the trap DCs and the gear that I have available to hit the exact scores for what is required (sustainable, no ship buffs of course). Once you include an enhancement item (upgraded bracers from reavers fate or tinkers set), +15 or +20 items, +11 int from items (or more with U14 gear), GH, skill boost, arti PL etc there really isn't any need for more than 10 ranks in search/disable I'm guessing.

Spot especially; +20 from item (spyglass or time sensing goggles), 50+ wisdom (at level 25) and wild instinct scrolls for the toughest quests and I bet 10 ranks is going to be fine (or less).

:confused: ... wait, what build exactly are you talking about? Are these with 2 Arti?
(not that ima critic... just curious...) ;)

[LeLoric]

I already looked at shadowdancer and it is the clear winner for ranged destinies so assume any of those builds I listed would have it. Sneak damage though in general is less reliable with ranged dps then you assert here so would prefer 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 fighter or barbarian shadowdancer 5 over this 13 rogue 6 ranger 1 fighter build you espouse. Nothing has changed from 1-20 heroic levels thus you have not convinced me that 13 rogue 6 ranger 1 fighter is better then 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 monk or barbarian unless you are arguing that the sneak damage from the epic feat pulls it ahead - not sure I agree.

Edit: Shiradi is less dps then LD and Shadowdancer which provides dps to both style so ranged dps all the time builds falls even further behind then it is now.

12 rog qualifies for 2x imp sneak attack that's what has changed. Before a 13/6/1 build would have 9d6 sneak dice and now it has 15d6 not counting the shadow dancer stuff. That's a huge benefit we are talking maxed out 20 rog dps at this point.

Shiradi is less dps to melee/ranged hybrids not to full time ranged that is the point. Is it the best dps in the game? no but it viable respectable dps compared to melees and you are to make a full on 10k stars monk build that can keep it's ki up without meleeing.

[wax_on_wax_off]

:confused: ... wait, what build exactly are you talking about? Are these with 2 Arti?
(not that ima critic... just curious...) ;)

Yes, 11 ranger/6 monk/3 arti or 12 monk/6 ranger/2 arti. I prefer these over the /fighter variants due to the access to 100% heal scrolls without sacrificing much DPS (damage boost I activated on 10k stars rather than haste boost I activated on manyshot).

Traps, enchant weapons, elemental weapons, breaker of boxes and other perks are just bonuses.

[maddmatt70]

12 rog qualifies for 2x imp sneak attack that's what has changed. Before a 13/6/1 build would have 9d6 sneak dice and now it has 15d6 not counting the shadow dancer stuff. That's a huge benefit we are talking maxed out 20 rog dps at this point.

Shiradi is less dps to melee/ranged hybrids not to full time ranged that is the point. Is it the best dps in the game? no but it viable respectable dps compared to melees and you are to make a full on 10k stars monk build that can keep it's ki up without meleeing.

Shiradi is less dps to full times ranged dps builds as well. It quite frankly is less dps for any build. Why would you argue otherwise? Full time ranged should go with shadowdancer. Regardless full time ranged is not respectable. 10k stars is not good enough and no I did not have too much issue with getting ki on my 12 monk 6 ranger 2 fighter or 12 fighter 7 monk 1 arti builds although there was a little issue with cooldown timers between 10k and manyshot, but what have you.

[conanj77]

The 13 rog/6 ranger/1ftr shadowdancer build I threw up earlier will out dps any of your above combos in both melee and ranged (as long as you are close enough but your builds want to be close enough also for point blank shot bonus)

7d6 sneak from rog, 6d6 from shadow dancer, 6d6 from improved sneak attack x2, 2d6 from assassin 2

21d6 + 25 sneak attack dmg is ridiculously good, couple that with full tiered haste boost, rams might, some favored enemy dmg etc. Add in some instakills via shadow dancer. This is the new top burst dps hybrid ranged/melee build.



Shiradi does change your situation quite a bit also as it offers nothing for melee and some pretty good ranged buffs enough to make a full time ranged bow build viable dps if it can keep its ki up which is the situation we were discussing.


Would you mind posting it?

Would make me happy.

thanks.

CJ out!

[conanj77]

I know its not the highest damage, but I really like pure ranger due to my playstyle; which is mainly solo. With the expansion I am at nearly 700 hps unraged and 1000 sp (which I use). Dex is 40 and Str 36 unraged... I think primal scream does not stack with rage, so it goes to like 39 with primal scream maybe? Can't remember. I tweaked dex to 40 since I found +to hit important again on beta. With the epic bonuses, my UMD is around 43-44 with all boosts and such. With primal scream I am over 700 hps not including the fake hps from con ops or GH and such. If I ever want to go back and do 3 barb past lives, I will be over 700 hps with no buffs....which I may do.

I do a lot of self healing as well picking up the healing spring with 3 charges and twisted in primal scream and fast-healing. I am still debating the third one... I may not hit the hardest, but usually I am the one who, after everyone wipes, is the one who clears everything out and raises folks.


You said you enjoy playing solo, so heal amp is important to you, so, if you have the time you may want to do 3 paladin PL's for +15%(or something) stacking heal amp. Would make you nearly unkillable if you played a Human AA...

Ooooooh question!
Does Half-elf get Human heal amp enhancement?

[conanj77]

Earlier it was said how we thought we looked, which was awesome and how others thought of us, like legos

We think we look like:

http://goo.gl/r1HEv

They think we look like:

http://goo.gl/zrcnY

Click those :P

The first is an awesome ranger firing multiple arrows(manyshot)
and the 2nd, is a plastic mini of a ranger...

CJ out!

P.S. Can a premium player post pic's? if so How?!? couldn't work it out and I was lookin' for like 10 minutes for a dang button!

[Kawai]

...P.S. Can a premium player post pic's? if so How?!? couldn't work it out and I was lookin' for like 10 minutes for a dang button!


Clicky your "USER CP"
Clicky "EDIT OPTIONS"
change the editor to desired function. (it'll b the bottom option sweetz)
enjoy. :cool: