I'm sorry Paladins

[glowbug]

To all the paladin players out there, I'm sorry... I never really knew.

I am about to finish my 2nd paladin life on my TR junky character. On my last life I went Monk-9 / Paladin-10, and I thought "hey this isnt so bad... I have "ok" DPS and I'm pretty sturdy". This time around I went with a more classic split of 18-Paladin / 2-Monk. Last life I barely remembered to use smites and divine sacrifice. This life I spam them every time they are off cooldown and even IF i had 20 smites instead of my 8, I'm not sure I'd care much for the class. DM-III increasing damage by 6 sounded good on paper but even with +9 damage from DM+DF and Zeal most other builds I have played were taking things down at least 20% faster from lvl 14+ (Melee builds i mean... blue bars is a whole different game)

I'm sure it'd be ok to tank with etc but good lord the DPS is just horrid. This is coming from a character on his 6th life with all kinds of goodies in the bank. I cant imagine that poor first life paladin.

So I just wanted to extend my condolences to all the paladin players out there... Here's hoping Turbine will throw you a bone in the U14 or 15.

Grim

Edit: I do want to say that yes this 18/2 life is very durable and self sufficient, but not terribly more so than most of my other lives when carrying pots wands and clickies.

[Rubiconn]

I appreciate the apology. I love my paladin, 3rd life and loving it. I have other toons but I still like my paly best of all. I am not a min/maxer so I dont worry that it takes me a few extra swings to kill stuff. Its about playing your toon to the best of its ability.

Would I decline any love the devs give me in the next update never.

[karnokvolrath]

Turbine would be well served to COMPLETELY scrap pallies and start over, lol.

Sucks too because i like the class, they just are...meh.

[HunterjWizzard]

I dunno, I think the saves/immunities are pretty nice. My first(and still favorite) character was a paladin; I knew nothing of fear, poison, disease, or that traps could actually hurt you. Seriously, I got so used to just walking right through everything that it was a bit of a shock when my alts started dying!

[darksol23]

The bio on my completionist-in-progress lists the lives done so far (including paladin), and says something like "Paladin - Never ever ever again". When people ask me why I explain it like this...

A paladin is like a fighter, but without the feats...
Or a barb without the rage...
It's just meh...
You have constant button mashing of Divine Sacrifice, Smite, Zeal, Divine Might and you still end up with just meh.

I've found some use for paladin, but it's usually in the form of 2 or 6 level splashes, or being a KoTC with ToD set hoping the game would be forever evil outsiders.

[Chilldude]

The real issue here is the ability for any given group with a couple of decent players to absolutely face roll content. Face roll is supposed to be a joke, but it's so close to reality right now that it isn't funny. There is a room full of Mob X, how should we approach this? Let's all run in and randomly start pressing buttons until everything is dead!

DDO has one of the most diverse selections of classes you'll see in any MMO all with a staggering array or abilities, it's completely pointless, but it's there. You won't use any of the myriad of abilities afforded the various classes, because every class is reduced to its ability to exude DPS.

[My2Cents]

My first main was a pally, gimped the build, gave up and built a second pally, came back and resurrected the first.

Too much time and TP invested before I learned it was a "challenge" compared to other classes. At one point al,ost left DDO because of it. Bad place for a new player to start with, leaves less than optimal impression.

Capped and getting some gear is a bit better, we'll see. Having lots of fun with my caster, we'll see what he's like as he gears/levels...

Turbine: Please don't forget paladins.

[Galeria]

You won't use any of the myriad of abilities afforded the various classes, because every class is reduced to its ability to exude DPS.

100% agree, but I have no idea how it could be any different in an MMO. There are too many people who just rush/kill/complete because they can to enforce anything that requires specialized abilities.

When they do put in something that requires special abilities, people cry and boo hoo until it's able to be bypassed.

I think the only way to play differently is... to play differently. Which involves solo play or a static group/like-minded guild that are willing to approach the game differently and use strategy instead of brute force.

The game can be played differently...it's just that your average group doesn't want to.

It always makes me laugh when I run the Baudry chain during a TR and the last quest actually wants you to stealth through it... the DM keeps giving you warnings about the sleeping kobolds that might wake up. I've never been with a group that did anything but plow through it, killing everything.

[illusion28]

It always makes me laugh when I run the Baudry chain during a TR and the last quest actually wants you to stealth through it... the DM keeps giving you warnings about the sleeping kobolds that might wake up. I've never been with a group that did anything but plow through it, killing everything.

LOL, this is so true,

I once tried to "sneak" around with my rogue, and everone ended up yelling because I was slowing them down while hacking away everything :P. It was hillarious.

This reminds me.. has anyone ever done the Framework quest, without setting up an alarm? Just wondering.

[DoctorWhofan]

Pally's abilities isn't that they are main abything, but because they are off EVERYTHING. THey are the ultimate back-up card for a party. off-healer means emeragancy healing. Off-tank means they can take a hit (we will not go into those EPIC saves they have. Beholders...meh.) Off-DPS means they can kill things (alot slower, granted). Plus having some basic buffs to help out the FvS/clerics and the rest AND the PrEs...they are pretty darn good.

THey will never be the best at anything and you may not understand why you took them...until the party starts dropping and the only one alive is the Pally who is slowly but surely killing Velah and managed to pop a rez scroll for the fallen cleric just before he died...with Velah one barbarian hit away from dying. True story. Stopped me from deleting my Pally.


In my world, paladins are fire extinguishers: not sure why they are there, until you have the fire...

[Bosco]

To all the paladin players out there, I'm sorry... I never really knew.

I am about to finish my 2nd paladin life on my TR junky character. On my last life I went Monk-9 / Paladin-10, and I thought "hey this isnt so bad... I have "ok" DPS and I'm pretty sturdy". This time around I went with a more classic split of 18-Paladin / 2-Monk. Last life I barely remembered to use smites and divine sacrifice. This life I spam them every time they are off cooldown and even IF i had 20 smites instead of my 8, I'm not sure I'd care much for the class. DM-III increasing damage by 6 sounded good on paper but even with +9 damage from DM+DF and Zeal most other builds I have played were taking things down at least 20% faster from lvl 14+ (Melee builds i mean... blue bars is a whole different game)

I'm sure it'd be ok to tank with etc but good lord the DPS is just horrid. This is coming from a character on his 6th life with all kinds of goodies in the bank. I cant imagine that poor first life paladin.

So I just wanted to extend my condolences to all the paladin players out there... Here's hoping Turbine will throw you a bone in the U14 or 15.

Grim

Edit: I do want to say that yes this 18/2 life is very durable and self sufficient, but not terribly more so than most of my other lives when carrying pots wands and clickies.

First off capstone gives a huge boost to dps so by taking 2 levels monk you decided to sacrifice dps for survivability. You didnt mention what type of prestige you took. Kotc is dps build. Also three THF feats since kotc capstone and kotc ring set apply to glancing blows. All this is what makes the pally a path of destruction. You built it wrong. Reroll and try again.

[MacRighteous]

I dont know what your guy's problem is - but i love paladins - I like clicking skills in combat - I like close and personal melee and knock down dragged out combat - I like not having to stock up on pots (much) - self healing - self buffs - walking through traps - I splashed 2 lvls rogue and can open locks and disarm traps (for my poor sickly friends who die whenever a little acid gets splashed on their toes)oh - and evasion - I like never dying (much) undead? please - monster with large hit points? cant out last me (most of the time) not with 4 lay on hands - unyielding sovereignty - add to that life shield + virtue and a body feeder weapon and I cant be put down (much) Divine Might III +Paladin Divine Sacrifice II+ smite = dead monster pretty quickly, often ending with said monster unraveling to hell and being torn to pieces like a phaser disrupter - love - love - love it

You have it wrong: A fighter is like a paladin with out the buffs, saves and healing.
A Barb is like a paladin but needs a nanny-bot to keep him up.

IMHO - Paladins are one of the most diverse - well rounded - well balanced - classes out there. splashed with Rogue skills and you are a one man party - and thats where the hate comes from - paladins dont need you - and players who get used to "leaning on allies" for completions look at the paladins awesomeness with a green eye of jealousy - lol

I kid a lot and am just having some good spirited fun here - I think everyone has preferences that are valid - and i respect that - I'm sorry that some people dont like the uberness that is the paladin - but I dont like sneaky rogues, squishy casters and one dimensional killers - so we are even.

To each his own - but for every thing I hate about other classes - there are a 1000 people who love those same qualities - so it is too with the paladin...

MacR

[Rhysem]

Pally's abilities isn't that they are main abything, but because they are off EVERYTHING. THey are the ultimate back-up card for a party. off-healer means emeragancy healing. Off-tank means they can take a hit (we will not go into those EPIC saves they have. Beholders...meh.) Off-DPS means they can kill things (alot slower, granted). Plus having some basic buffs to help out the FvS/clerics and the rest AND the PrEs...they are pretty darn good.

THey will never be the best at anything and you may not understand why you took them...until the party starts dropping and the only one alive is the Pally who is slowly but surely killing Velah and managed to pop a rez scroll for the fallen cleric just before he died...with Velah one barbarian hit away from dying. True story. Stopped me from deleting my Pally.


In my world, paladins are fire extinguishers: not sure why they are there, until you have the fire...

Great, so they suck 99% of the time and are useful 1% of the time. And are no more useful than any other class with a half-elf cleric dilly. Yay! Go Paladins!

The problem is they are setup as a hybrid class, and as in traditional MMO design, they only get to be maybe 75% as effective as a dedicated class. But since you have things like timed quest/event/fight or must be able to soak two back to back spell crits, etc and they don't bring 100%, they're just a liability. Its great they can do anything, but they can't do every different role at once, so in total they're a 75% gimp charity slot. Filling multi-role in a small group undermanning things, maybe is helpful. In a raid, its pointless.

I won't be rolling a pallie again until they get some major buffs. As it is a warforged LoB FvS (first life) is >>> paladin (2nd life, monk splash w/evasion). And yes, I'm playing both -- well I guess not the FvS, he hit cap and is waiting for expansion. The paladin only gets play when static group is on.

I mean, swapping to hunter of the dead to be literally immune to beholders (which even Paladins aren't, they'll just level drain you till your saves fail unless HotD) is cute, but not really worth it. If HotD is available via Human racial prestige after the enhancements pass, there's no reason to roll a Paladin ever.

[QNecron]

Couple of things I noticed and would like fixed on my beloved Paladin class;

1) Casting animations for their DPS spells/abilities need to be shortened to what Divine Favor is.

2) Longer durations on said buffs, they seem to run out way to quickly. I think this is has to do with the casting animations more than anything, however it would be nice to see some of those 1min buffs get extended slightly as you invest more and more AP into them.

3) As of right now you need to buff up to use your Sacrifice then Smite. I would love to see Divine Sacrifice changed to a "Metamagic" type enhancement with a cooldown.

Example; you would activate Divine Sacrifice and it would apply on your next attack BUT remain active and go on a cooldown, once that cooldown is up your Divine Sacrifice would be applied on your next attack. So every other 6 seconds or whatever your DS would be up for use on your next attack without you having to reapply it during battle.

Ideally:

1) Use Divine Might
2) Use Divine Favor
3) Use Zeal
4) Enable Divine Sacrifice
5) ???
6) Profit for the next 2+ minutes in combat.

/we can all dream right?

[DoctorWhofan]

Great, so they suck 99% of the time and are useful 1% of the time. And are no more useful than any other class with a half-elf cleric dilly. Yay! Go Paladins!

The problem is they are setup as a hybrid class, and as in traditional MMO design, they only get to be maybe 75% as effective as a dedicated class. But since you have things like timed quest/event/fight or must be able to soak two back to back spell crits, etc and they don't bring 100%, they're just a liability. Its great they can do anything, but they can't do every different role at once, so in total they're a 75% gimp charity slot. Filling multi-role in a small group undermanning things, maybe is helpful. In a raid, its pointless.

I won't be rolling a pallie again until they get some major buffs. As it is a warforged LoB FvS (first life) is >>> paladin (2nd life, monk splash w/evasion). And yes, I'm playing both -- well I guess not the FvS, he hit cap and is waiting for expansion. The paladin only gets play when static group is on.

I mean, swapping to hunter of the dead to be literally immune to beholders (which even Paladins aren't, they'll just level drain you till your saves fail unless HotD) is cute, but not really worth it. If HotD is available via Human racial prestige after the enhancements pass, there's no reason to roll a Paladin ever.

Neither is the "get out of jail, free" card. Great, only if you get sent to jail. Chances are, that will be never. Still, having it helps considerbly, especially vying for those last few properties.

Apparently you and I don't look at the game the same way. This game is designed for the party and is pretty nice to average geared/decent builds. You don't have to be optimal for most of the game. Would optimal be awesome? sure. Things get done quicker, and with less hassle. PuGs don't have that. And I always bring backup.

Do Paladins need love? YES. WIll not deny that. THe captstone stuff is awesome but only useful for the back end of the game. But, especially for this game, I always remember it is based on a party of four ok geared and ok built characters. SO in that regards, paladins function very well.

[EllisDee37]

The problem with paladins is that their dps prestiges are confined to specific mobs: undead or evil outsiders. The undead one is a joke at endgame, so we're left with evil outsiders. This was workable last year, I'm guessing, but with endgame increasingly focused on constructs and drow, what the heck role is a pally supposed to have? I guess the DoS overhaul was the big clue that pallies are only supposed to be used as tanks.

Well phooey on that. My 18/2 pally/rogue is my main and by far my favorite. He's ridiculously survivable, and even though his dps is the suxxors I don't care, I'm not much for min/maxing.

It really is annoying every time I step into a house c quest, though, how pointless paladins are in current endgame content.

[zwiebelring]

100% agree, but I have no idea how it could be any different in an MMO. There are too many people who just rush/kill/complete because they can to enforce anything that requires specialized abilities.

When they do put in something that requires special abilities, people cry and boo hoo until it's able to be bypassed.

I think the only way to play differently is... to play differently. Which involves solo play or a static group/like-minded guild that are willing to approach the game differently and use strategy instead of brute force.

The game can be played differently...it's just that your average group doesn't want to.

It always makes me laugh when I run the Baudry chain during a TR and the last quest actually wants you to stealth through it... the DM keeps giving you warnings about the sleeping kobolds that might wake up. I've never been with a group that did anything but plow through it, killing everything.
It is a natural law. The easiest way will be chosen at any time possible. If the reward is not according to a more difficult way, nobody will try it.

I want quests, which need Jump +80, Hide +80 and such but instead the devs cry and are scared by people who squeeze everything out of one aspect and nerf the quests altogether as if the effort to get to say, a Hide of +120 is trivial.

[Xynot2]

Im not sorry- self righteous, holier than thou, LG bastages deserve everything that happens to them!


Um... yeah... PnP flashback. Sorry.

[Amalthius_Di_Veluna]

1. The pally is not (and never has been) the top of the line in DPS supermen. You are required to spread your ability points over a wider range than most builds. You need str, wis, cha, a little con for front-rank work and a little dex for AC. You can't afford to load up strength and ignore char and wisdom. You are not and never will be a "total package" dps build. That's not the point of a pally.

2. You are also a healer/buffer for yourself and as much of the party as you can manage. You will never have a sorc's SPs or a cleric's selection of spells. Still, you do what you can. You are there to fight evil and aid the weak (as it were.)

3. You have the ability to use your aura of good to benefit yourself and anyone around you. You are the ONLY class in the game that can do this specific thing. Your presence bolsters morale and removes fear, while aiding the casters and helping defend the squishies.

In other words . . . you are the grease that keeps all the gears turning. You hate all that is evil and can be relentless in combat by keeping yourself and others in the fight longer.

I have three fave builds on Thelanis and the first among them is Amalthius, Knight of Veluna. He was the first character I created almost six and a half years ago. I put him aside about three years ago to concentrate on other builds, but have recently leveled him to 20 for the first time. He is probably the toon I will first send over to Cormyr. He is an original 28 pt build that has been greater reincarnated only once, just to reroll his abilities and run up his feats and enhans again. Have epic-leveled him on the beta server and he now has almost 700 HP and a ton of SP. He and one Arcane Archer ranger, with a couple of hirelings and two onyx statuette panthers pwned the drow over there in groups of up to 7 or 8 at once. (including the high-level casters)

I didn't take all the enhancement lines for divine might and the like, but he is very good at destroying undead.:rolleyes: (May have to respec him for demons/devils instead of undead.) It seems to be as much about how you play them as it is how you build them. Takes both.

So a paladin may not be everybody's cup of tea, but lets call an apple an apple. As Mr. Scott always said..."the right tool for the right job!".

Sorry to carry on so ... Thus endeth the lecture ... Knights of Veluna, ARISE!

[Hobgoblin]

First off capstone gives a huge boost to dps so by taking 2 levels monk you decided to sacrifice dps for survivability. You didnt mention what type of prestige you took. Kotc is dps build. Also three THF feats since kotc capstone and kotc ring set apply to glancing blows. All this is what makes the pally a path of destruction. You built it wrong. Reroll and try again.

kotc is not dps.

kotc is a trap.

reroll.

dos for tanking/raids/epics

hunter for survivability

hob

[Nagantor]

Well, I just made my first real paladin. I absolutely love it. Plays like a blast, crushing every resistance and if asked to pull out my hire I raise an eyebrow. What would I need a healing hire for? I got great saves, high hp, can self heal to a limited amount and have nice immunities.
Am I king of DPS against most mobs? No. Do I care wheter I do 125% or 150% of required DPS? No.

Paladin is a bad class for the group of players which just want to rush through content as quickly as possible. You do form the majority in this forum. But you do not form the majority of players. You're not playing in the huge group of players doing PUG runs, spending a huge amount of time in 1-19 as you consider them inferior. That's fine, just accept that Paladin is a great class for that huge group and the members of your group will crunch numbers enough to choose something else.

[BruceTheHoon]

I accept condolences in form of loot. I play a paladin therefore, no matter how much you want that item, I need it more.


Paladins are like rangers in a way, that if sheer damage output is your only measure of merit, you're going to be disappointed. It takes a lot of dedication to build and gear them up to that particular task.

[Arlathen]

Hmm, Paladin 20/ShadowDancer 5, Half-Elf, and therefore Capstone, 9D6 Sneak Damage, Evasion, Godly Saves, Light Armour and some PR....

Hell, chuck in 2 Rogue till you get Shadowdancer capped and get your Evasion from it, then LR out to Pure and Capstone.

Twist in Legendary Dreadnought's various DPS enhancers/Haste Boost, and Grandmasters Fort Bypass.

Its the long way to make a Paladin good for DPS, but its so crazy it might just work.

Edit: Hmm, the 'Light & Darkness" build?..

[Kylstrem]

I got really lucky and am on my Paladin life for my completionist and was at level 7 when these XP Stones came out.

Got to skip 2,000,000 XP of boring, slow grinding, fights lasting 3x to 4x longer than when on Fighter, Barb, Ranger. Perfect Timing for the stone.

Got to level 18 and respecced to THF so I can use Terror to get past the last 1 million XP. Then I never have to play this lame class again.

Oh, and I love the battle cry of Paladins:
"But my saves are better than yours!"

:D:D

[goodspeed]

I rolled with a TR pally once. We did a shaverath quest then we decided to run a few epics.

As we recalled back he complained about the class and I jokingly said you need to stack 3 pally past lives for it to be worth while. He started to flip his lid rambling on and on. He quieted down and then asked me for a ship invite. Of course I gave him one buffed and then jogged over to the quest.

I waited, waited a bit more, then called over asking if he was ready. No response. So I jog back over to the ship and board as he is shown to still be aboard in the quest box. As I enter through those double door behind, I look up and see etched into the wood. "Brooks was here"

[Malky]

This reminds me.. has anyone ever done the Framework quest, without setting up an alarm? Just wondering.

It's easy, 4-5 min per run on average and exactly 1 kill unless something goes wrong. Pretty good solo exp/min.

You just gotta know how to do it, doing it in itself is really nothing incredibly hard. That being said you need a big burst of DPS to take down the boss before adds start teleporting on him in higher difficulty settings.

[MacRighteous]

It's easy, 4-5 min per run on average and exactly 1 kill unless something goes wrong. Pretty good solo exp/min.

You just gotta know how to do it, doing it in itself is really nothing incredibly hard. That being said you need a big burst of DPS to take down the boss before adds start teleporting on him in higher difficulty settings.

catapulting in to kill the boss takes all the fun out of it - Framework is one of my favorite quests - If max XP per min is not your priority - do yourself a favor and dont learn how to zerg it - it looses its charm...

MacR

[Ungood]

I dunno, I think the saves/immunities are pretty nice. My first(and still favorite) character was a paladin; I knew nothing of fear, poison, disease, or that traps could actually hurt you. Seriously, I got so used to just walking right through everything that it was a bit of a shock when my alts started dying!

I laughed SOOO hard reading this, because this was my fate as well, My First Life and first character was a pally, 28 Points of solid unkillableness, then I TRed into a Ranger/Fighter split for more DPS, and I am like "What the??!!?!!? This stuff can actually kill you?"

[Ungood]

Oh, and I love the battle cry of Paladins:
"But my saves are better than yours!"

My Pallies battle cry was "I only have 3 spots left in my backpack" it was amazingly motivational. :p

[Xeraphim]

Well, I just made my first real paladin. I absolutely love it. Plays like a blast, crushing every resistance and if asked to pull out my hire I raise an eyebrow. What would I need a healing hire for? I got great saves, high hp, can self heal to a limited amount and have nice immunities.
Am I king of DPS against most mobs? No. Do I care wheter I do 125% or 150% of required DPS? No.

Paladin is a bad class for the group of players which just want to rush through content as quickly as possible. You do form the majority in this forum. But you do not form the majority of players. You're not playing in the huge group of players doing PUG runs, spending a huge amount of time in 1-19 as you consider them inferior. That's fine, just accept that Paladin is a great class for that huge group and the members of your group will crunch numbers enough to choose something else.
^^^
This is a good post.

The developers should group with live players more often to get some opinions. Like I said in another thread: The forums are a cesspool of elitism.

[Uhtred_Stark]

Paladins definately aren't a good choice for a first character. Almost everyone I have talked to that started on paladin ended up abandoning it and having a ton more fun on a barbarian or fighter.

That said, Paladins are fun to level once you have 34 or 36 pt builds. HotD is a really good prestige giving you auto ghost touch and some really nice healing amp. Paladin monk splashes are virtually unkillable while leveling. You don't feel like you are weak dps until maybe elite/hard VON3. Even then, with HotD you can dominate the necro2 chain and kill in shadow crypt better than any other melee. You have plenty of undead in the sands, necro3 and 4 as well. Yes, gianthold isn't very fun and neither are the new lordsmarch chains because that weak dps really starts to become noticable. However, once you get up to 18 you grab your terror or tharak wraps and you are great dps again.

I wouldn't want to play a paladin in epics or raids, but if you like all the content up to 20 paladins can be fun.

Of course what was missing from all that? Yes, holy sword. Never used it. I think ddo could do a ton to help paladins simply by making holy sword much better.

[Malky]

Yeah pally dps is.... a tricky point. Originally they had to have less dps than fighters/barbs mostly due to self healing, but SF pots giving pure melees a way to self heal (even with their drawbacks) somewhat lessened the benefits you could have from playing a pally.

My tank is a 18/2 pally monk and was designed to be a pug tank, i.e. a tank that can self heal during some time if the pug healers are struggling. It works fine, my LoHs / US saved quite a few pug raids from wiping, but i do know that building a proper stalwart can achieve pretty much the same goal with SF pots (that i'm using too once LoH counter reaches 0)

In the end, the only benefits i get over a stalwart is that i can LoH others if needed and i have better saves unless the stalwart splashes 2 pally. Pretty poor benefits considering what you loose.

On the dps part, destinies do boost pallies as much as others but with them starting from a lower level.... the bottom line is that a 100% dps-focused pally will not be as efficient as a fighter/barb.

[Raithe]

However, once you get up to 18 you grab your terror or tharak wraps and you are great dps again.


You realize that the "great dps" you are talking about has nothing to do with being a paladin, or a fighter, or a barb... it's all in the weapon. Which should be making anyone wonder why you wouldn't just roll a favored soul so you could have implosion going at the same time you have the pks rolling.

I'm sorry, but threads about "this melee class is inferior" or "this one rocks" are just a little too conspicuous. That's because melee is a non-issue. Melee make no appreciable difference in any end-game quest, and are barely useful on the trip to get there. Added to this sorry state of affairs is the apparently popular tactic of taking multiple toughness feats added on to the barbarian past lifes, so that the melee character can be a really meaty sack of nothing important.

DDO belongs to classes that have DoTs, instakills, or are sources of fuel for such. That means that if you aren't a sorc, wizard, cleric, fvs, bard (spellsinger only really), and maybe assassin, you don't really matter at all. Paladins at least have a little fuel to add to the burn pile, so they aren't in as bad a shape as some...

...but you'll still probably want to upgrade if the purpose of your game playing is to be the uber.

[Blackmoors]

Well, tbh, on a TR train you dont get to explore the classes properly. People think that making a completionist by rushing through various classes in a small period of time and doing the same quests all over again gives them some insight in a class but it doesnt, not at all IMO... People level up as fast as they can, using the same formula of quests, playing each quest the same way and basically each life the same way as well so they can take advantage of the gear they have so that skews their vision of the class!

Ive played 3 classes in this game extensively (played every other class as well but this 3 played more) since ive done so since more than 6 years: Ranger, Wizard and Paladin. When cap was 10 wizards were very limited since the spell choices were scarce. Rangers and Paladins weren't top notch either. A few updates later, Wizards were greatly improved as were all the other classes. Paladins and Rangers (specially rangers) were the less improved classes and many a player though them gimps and turned them down in grouping. The classes weren't bad per se, the problem, as we have now, was that people follow the mainstream and what the majority consider good. Truth is Paladins and Rangers are great classes, very complete, sturdy and versatile. When raids started to being low manned and soloed, it was rangers and paladins that did it, not a full dps barbarian build, those always need a couple of nannies with them. More updates later to what we have today and the stigma continues I see...

A Paladin, when build and played properly, is very hard to kill. Using my character as example, Its very very very hard to kill it in any given context. Very high Hit Points, stellar saves, great healing amp and healing capabilities, ability to pick up a shield and absorb damage, can self buff DW and elemental resistances and can Smite for 1300+ dmg to get and retain the aggro. Would a barbarian deal more damage, yes it will but will loose many of the things I mentioned. Truth is Paladins are very balanced in their traits when compared to a Fighter or a Barbarian. Do they need a boost from the Devs? I think so, mostly in the way their enhancements and abilities work, I dont mind dealing less damage then a barbarian nor do I think I should.

Truth is, I rather have a Character that deals less damage over time than have a character that can ONLY deal damage. Recently I TRed my ranger to barbarian (for the past life) and boy that class suck! Its the most boring and one dimension class in the game (IMO ofc) and I cant wait to TR again. I like playing complex classes, I like having various abilities and having to use them. My point is: to each his own! Some people prefer classes that are simpler to play, or that the only job is to hit things and kill fast and therefore only need to focus on one aspect of the build. I prefer diversity, versatility and survivability and that a Paladin has in spades! So the mainstream can keep playing their max DPS barbs and fighters, Ill keep playing my gimped Paladin as I have been for 6 years. If ever with quest together, tell me what you thought of it after the quest is done ;)

As always, IMO!
Black

[hecate355]

Paladins are sturdy indeed, but when you have other melee dps chars on account to compare em with, it leaves somewhat sour taste.

I was exping my thf paladin with couple past lives here and there, sometimes it felt ok, sometimes less ok. Lots of hps selfhealing with torc etc, quite a joy. Then played monk to gap for first time, after that my paladin felt awfully slow, hits slow move slow, it just wasnt as entertaining anymore. Maybe it never came to full glory, as he is 17, but still, whole game feels slow and sleepy as paladin.

[ZJEPane]

I actually kinda like my paladin.

Okay, so my DPS isn't as high as, oh, say, my fighter.
But I prefer it MUCH more than my fighter because:


Built in "Good" damage at lv20. Saves me money from buying weps off the AH
Holy Sword: Have you SEEN how much decent weapons cost on the AH? Seriously? And don't get me started on GS. I finally finished my first GS item, a 3xAir set of bracers. I probably won't have the mats to finish another one for another 1-2 months, that's if I manage to run my shrouds exactly every 3 days.
Lay on Hands: Because everybody expects me to BYOH. Other melees have to pot chug. I can wand whip, and save myself from certain death 4 times per rest. . . which is rarely enough, but the rest of the time, I can hit my angel wings, and get double my money's worth while pot chugging.

Someone mentioned having trouble in House C stuff? +3 GA of Smiting, have the arti hit it with adamantine if it's available. If not, you're still doing at least acceptable damage*. Most other stuff? Holy sword great sword, with a deadly if possible. Trash? I have my t2 LitII item that's okay for most trash (and it will probably never be finished, lol)

Does my pally need help? Yes. COuld it use a bit more DPS? Maybe. But for right now, I'm happy with my defensive stance, 700+ HP (which will probably shoot up as I get it better geared out), and my decent saves. It's a good class for a new player, if I'm being completely honest. It's not as expensive as everything else, but lets ya get in the front lines.

* acceptable damage as judged by the fact that stuff is actually dying. I learned this game on a cleric, so my sight will be forever skewed in regards to "acceptable" DPS. But stuff is dying, even if I'm not leading the KB list.

[Kylstrem]

I like playing complex classes, I like having various abilities and having to use them. My point is: to each his own! Some people prefer classes that are simpler to play, or that the only job is to hit things and kill fast and therefore only need to focus on one aspect of the build. I prefer diversity, versatility and survivability and that a Paladin has in spades!
As always, IMO!
Black

Taking 2-3 times as long to kill things + the ability to self-heal does not equal Diversity and Versatility in Spades, nor does it make a COMPLEX class.

Now, if you really like Diversity and Versatility, get yourself a Monk or an Artificer. Those are some complex classes with plenty of Diversity and Versatility.

With both of those classes, you get better survivability than Paladin. You get many more options for combat and dealing damage.

[oweieie]

Paladins are gimped barbarians.
Smite is the frenzied berserker prestige class, but only for 1 swing instead of every swing.
Divine Sacrifice is the berserker's frenzy ability, but for only 1 swing instead of every swing.
KotC bonus damage is the barbarian's rage, but only works on evil outsiders and doesn't crit multiply.
Add in everything else paladins get < supreme cleave.

When I did my paladin life, yeah I felt pretty good... for 1 swing now and again. Otherwise, simply awful. Yes, you can get by in old content, up through vale you should have no problems, but in the newer content when you're fighting CR 29 reavers with a trillion HPs that are immune to your terror, even barbarians are somewhat put out, but can still power through things, but paladins are just utterly ****ing useless.

[aerosole]

Truth is, I rather have a Character that deals less damage over time than have a character that can ONLY deal damage. Recently I TRed my ranger to barbarian (for the past life) and boy that class suck! Its the most boring and one dimension class in the game (IMO ofc) and I cant wait to TR again. I like playing complex classes, I like having various abilities and having to use them. My point is: to each his own! Some people prefer classes that are simpler to play, or that the only job is to hit things and kill fast and therefore only need to focus on one aspect of the build. I prefer diversity, versatility and survivability and that a Paladin has in spades!
Black

Agreed with many sentiments expressed in this thread about the versatility that comes with a pally. My main is a paladin too. Paladins are very party friendly, being very easy to switch between dps mode and tank mode.

Barbs, though, are not quite the boring dps-only class that many paladin players make them out to be. I used to think so too, until I made one myself. Because I dislike the one-dimension aspect of pure-dps, my barb build is gimped by forum standards (nope, didn't make a h-orc), but can still easily out-dps any pally with double frenzy + rage on.

A barb could effectively have unlimited self-only LoHs in the form of SF pots (well, maybe more like 30-40 due to space constraints). Just that not many barbs build for healing amp or bother with the pots (the h-orc stupid-smash thing not helping), but +400 heals a pot is easy to achieve if you plan for it. Paladins, OTOH, suffer much for using those pots due to the charisma hit.... strange when you consider the fact that, thematically, it makes most sense for divine classes to benefit from SF rewards.

Cancelling out of rage mode to use raise scrolls is inconvenient, but its not something that happens often, and losing 1 or 2 rages during those rare times isn't really a big deal when it helps the party. Yes, it does take a lot of effort to get umd to work well for a barb, but its not so difficult when you think about what a pally player needs to do to get his dps up. Sunder and stunning blow, if you care about those, works a lot better for the barb too.

The only thing my barb cannot do as well is tanking. A barb can have good dps and good versatility but this is one area that the pally excels at. A well-geared DoS paladin can be kept up in almost all the raids using only heal scrolls when 95% of incoming melee damage has been mitigated... though that's going to be somewhat less effective once u14 goes live.

Basically, it's possible to get a barb to do many things a pally can do, with some effort and a small sacrifice to the barb's dps. The only difference betwen both classes is that paladins are innately very survivable with poor dps, while barbs are innately strong dps with low survivability. That many players chose to play pure-dps barbs is a personal choice... and reflects well the value this game place on dps. Conversely, no pally can afford to play pure survivable builds... its all about trade-offs.

Apologies for the slight de-railment... just sharing some thoughts about general survivability. Its more about the build than a paladin-only thing :)

[DrakHar]

Paladins are gimped barbarians.
Smite is the frenzied berserker prestige class, but only for 1 swing instead of every swing.
Divine Sacrifice is the berserker's frenzy ability, but for only 1 swing instead of every swing.
KotC bonus damage is the barbarian's rage, but only works on evil outsiders and doesn't crit multiply.
Add in everything else paladins get < supreme cleave.

When I did my paladin life, yeah I felt pretty good... for 1 swing now and again. Otherwise, simply awful. Yes, you can get by in old content, up through vale you should have no problems, but in the newer content when you're fighting CR 29 reavers with a trillion HPs that are immune to your terror, even barbarians are somewhat put out, but can still power through things, but paladins are just utterly ****ing useless.

Heh.. no more supreme twitching as of next week...

[Bosco]

kotc is not dps.

kotc is a trap.

reroll.

dos for tanking/raids/epics

hunter for survivability

hob

Disagree, 3 extra smites is dps. 7d6 extra damage to evil outsiders which also applies to glancing. I have a DoS a hunter and a kotc. Kotc is dps.

[pHo3nix]

To all the paladin players out there, I'm sorry... I never really knew.

I am about to finish my 2nd paladin life on my TR junky character. On my last life I went Monk-9 / Paladin-10, and I thought "hey this isnt so bad... I have "ok" DPS and I'm pretty sturdy". This time around I went with a more classic split of 18-Paladin / 2-Monk. Last life I barely remembered to use smites and divine sacrifice. This life I spam them every time they are off cooldown and even IF i had 20 smites instead of my 8, I'm not sure I'd care much for the class. DM-III increasing damage by 6 sounded good on paper but even with +9 damage from DM+DF and Zeal most other builds I have played were taking things down at least 20% faster from lvl 14+ (Melee builds i mean... blue bars is a whole different game)

I'm sure it'd be ok to tank with etc but good lord the DPS is just horrid. This is coming from a character on his 6th life with all kinds of goodies in the bank. I cant imagine that poor first life paladin.

So I just wanted to extend my condolences to all the paladin players out there... Here's hoping Turbine will throw you a bone in the U14 or 15.

Grim

Edit: I do want to say that yes this 18/2 life is very durable and self sufficient, but not terribly more so than most of my other lives when carrying pots wands and clickies.

I completely agree with you: my pally life was a nightmare. I went 18paladin/2rogue. I was really durable and self-sufficient, but if you plan your build correctly you can be durable and self-sufficient with any class. The dps was awful though, not really comparable to anything that is real dps.

Paladins need a boost, maybe something similar to what they did in pathfinder.

[pHo3nix]

Truth is, I rather have a Character that deals less damage over time than have a character that can ONLY deal damage. Recently I TRed my ranger to barbarian (for the past life) and boy that class suck! Its the most boring and one dimension class in the game (IMO ofc) and I cant wait to TR again. I like playing complex classes, I like having various abilities and having to use them. My point is: to each his own! Some people prefer classes that are simpler to play, or that the only job is to hit things and kill fast and therefore only need to focus on one aspect of the build. I prefer diversity, versatility and survivability and that a Paladin has in spades! So the mainstream can keep playing their max DPS barbs and fighters, Ill keep playing my gimped Paladin as I have been for 6 years. If ever with quest together, tell me what you thought of it after the quest is done ;)

As always, IMO!
Black

Well, i am a real lover of self-sufficiency, so i try to build every toon with some sort of self-healing cause i prefer to be alive doing some dps than dead doing 0 dps and claiming my dps is uber. The problem is that every class, if well-built, can achieve great self-sufficiency while still outdpsing paladins by a great margin.

Barbarians with sf pots are almost as self-sufficient paladins but their dps is way better and they work well against anything, while paladins are just good against evil outsiders (or undeads if you are HotD) and suck bad against anything else.

[Chaimberland]

100% agree, but I have no idea how it could be any different in an MMO. There are too many people who just rush/kill/complete because they can to enforce anything that requires specialized abilities.

When they do put in something that requires special abilities, people cry and boo hoo until it's able to be bypassed.

I think the only way to play differently is... to play differently. Which involves solo play or a static group/like-minded guild that are willing to approach the game differently and use strategy instead of brute force.

The game can be played differently...it's just that your average group doesn't want to.

It always makes me laugh when I run the Baudry chain during a TR and the last quest actually wants you to stealth through it... the DM keeps giving you warnings about the sleeping kobolds that might wake up. I've never been with a group that did anything but plow through it, killing everything.

This is soooo true when running with pugs. My main toon is a paladin and I love him. No he doesn't deal out as much damage as fighters and barbarions. But on his first life I made him a Hunter of the Dead and he was awesome at turning & stunning high level undead. Even high level named undead. It was a lot of fun to play a role like that. Luckily I'm in a guild that encourages role playing and using strategy that accomodates everybody's play style.

When I pugged I just did what everybody else did. Pick up my Min II GS greataxe and diced things up.

Paladins are not for people who purely want to DPS and zerg. They are for people who like to role play and enjoy a little strategy.

If anybody is interested in this kind of play style talk to somebody in We Do Not Run Thru Dungeons on the Argonessen server.

[Chaimberland]

=DoctorWhofan; 4528890] In my world, paladins are fire extinguishers: not sure why they are there, until you have the fire...

This is the best quote I've ever seen. Sums up pallys perfectly.

[aerosole]

Well, i am a real lover of self-sufficiency, so i try to build every toon with some sort of self-healing cause i prefer to be alive doing some dps than dead doing 0 dps and claiming my dps is uber. The problem is that every class, if well-built, can achieve great self-sufficiency while still outdpsing paladins by a great margin.

Barbarians with sf pots are almost as self-sufficient paladins but their dps is way better and they work well against anything, while paladins are just good against evil outsiders (or undeads if you are HotD) and suck bad against anything else.

The problem with paladin dps is, I believe, mainly due to the mostly static nature of their dps increasing enchancements. Smites can multiply dps but are, unfortunately, a very limited resource. OTOH, Barbs get a +3 crit multipler in addition to their static bonus damage on every single attack... and that is huge. It's almost like infinite smiting with zero cool-downs.

Likewise, Kensai's get a ton of +30% haste boosts (4-5 minutes worth?) on top of their increased crit range. Barbs and Kensais effectively gets dps increasing effects that scales well as their base dps power increase. Everything just keeps getting better, from higher STR to more powerful weapons.

As u14 comes, the difference in dps between paladins and the real dps classes is only going to widen as the power creep goes up. As it is, it is probably most sensible to play a paladin as a tank, and play the other classes when you need good dps coupled with good versatility.

[Kawai]

Don't see too many of these anyway, but... :p
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4625598763696577&id=d712408a2bfcfdd3fd9a4166fa734e77
:rolleyes:

[Alaunra2010]

Im not sorry- self righteous, holier than thou, LG bastages deserve everything that happens to them!


Um... yeah... PnP flashback. Sorry.

Hi Xynot2;

If we were playing tennis, I would say that you have a great backhand return! I know you were playing around, but my gosh you made me laugh. What you're saying sure rings true. Paladins nowadays are so much different than they were back then, aren't they. Behavior restrictions *WERE* the primary gameplay restriction for Paladins in the beginning, and it made them really challenging and fulfilling to play. Remember what they had back in AD&D?

XP bonuses when STR and WIS were over a certain score
STR, DEX, CON, and CHA increase 0.2d10 per level to 18(00) as a result of intense training over time
Immunity to disease, 90% immunity to mind-affecting spells
Skills that allowed them to check for evil intent
Special Mounts!
Holy Avenger!


Those were the highlights. But the restrictions were pretty steep:

Crazy-lucky minimum 3d6 ability score requirements
Could never associate with evil
All associates had to be good
Henchmen had to be lawful good
They had to be lawful good
Goodness, they even had to make sure their pie was lawful good.
Gave up 10% of all wealth automatically to non
Could only OWN 10 magical items
NO multiclassing
Race restrictions
Penance upon committing chaotic acts
Fallen upon committing any evil act - falling made you either a fighter or a cavalier, permanently.
It took 10 years to replace a dead special mount

Love them or hate them, they sure were powerful and could be such great fun. I don't recall just how many of these things changed in 3.0 but it was still fairly true to its roots IIRC. It was when I rolled up my first paladin in Neverwinter Nights that I realized that someone had moved the cheese. I remember distinctly what a sad, sad day that was for me.

We're obviously in the days of the MMO, now. In DDO, alignment is only mechanically relevant to equipment and DR. It has no behavioral relevance in the game. If they had all of their old qualities and no consequences for behavior, Paladins would probably be favored over fighters. With the advent of feats, designers were able to introduce a measurable downside to playing a paladin vs. a fighter, though that was nowhere near the only reason feats were introduced. Enhancements try to strike further balance, and they do okay, but... what it boils down to is this: when I play the Paladin, I must recognize that I don't want to play a Paladin. I really want to play a Paladin as it was designed back in AD&D.

And I realize that's just not going to happen, so... That's that. They sure can be improved, though! I agree with just about everything else I've read about DPS relevance of the Paladin.

[morticianjohn]

I have a paladin and a melee fvs. It sounds kind of funny to me to hear about paladin's support abilities and/or spells. A melee divine will come with more damage, more buffs and is much more capable of saving a bad situation than a paladin. If you can get sufficient saves on another class there is no reason whatsoever to play paladin. The saves are the only boost that can not be outdone and in many cases they're superfluous.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

Pally's abilities isn't that they are main abything, but because they are off EVERYTHING. THey are the ultimate back-up card for a party. off-healer means emeragancy healing. Off-tank means they can take a hit (we will not go into those EPIC saves they have. Beholders...meh.) Off-DPS means they can kill things (alot slower, granted). Plus having some basic buffs to help out the FvS/clerics and the rest AND the PrEs...they are pretty darn good.

THey will never be the best at anything and you may not understand why you took them...until the party starts dropping and the only one alive is the Pally who is slowly but surely killing Velah and managed to pop a rez scroll for the fallen cleric just before he died...with Velah one barbarian hit away from dying. True story. Stopped me from deleting my Pally.


In my world, paladins are fire extinguishers: not sure why they are there, until you have the fire...

That's pretty much how I look at arties and bards, although in a last-man-standing situation I suppose pallys have the upper hand.

I'd still prefer to be preventive medicine than emergency surgery though.

[Blackmoors]

Taking 2-3 times as long to kill things + the ability to self-heal does not equal Diversity and Versatility in Spades, nor does it make a COMPLEX class.

Now, if you really like Diversity and Versatility, get yourself a Monk or an Artificer. Those are some complex classes with plenty of Diversity and Versatility.

With both of those classes, you get better survivability than Paladin. You get many more options for combat and dealing damage.

I dont know what Paladin you played but my Paladin doesn't take 2 times as much to kill anything any other Melee class does, not to mention 3 times. What is your base of comparison, a eSoS Barbarian against a S&B Paladin...?

As for the two mentioned classes: Artificers are a class of their own and the Dark Horse of all the classes since they excel in almost everything game related but seldom people seem to notice that. As for Monks, again they are a unique class that plays different then any other. They started being the gimpiest of all, got constantly boosted by the Devs till they became a bit OP and now are going to take the nerf bat and will be on balance with the other classes so to speak (while Paladins will get a considerable boost BTW).

Anyway, the diversity and survivability of the class isnt unique ofc, other classes are as versatile and more. The classes that surpass the Paladin in DPS thou (Fighter and Barbarian mostly) are not versatile when compared. OFC many a player will only focus on numbers and the damage they deal with a swing of their axe and for them, there are better and more suited classes (as it should be I may add), thats why I said on my post to which his own!

The complexity of this class comes by the ability of building it right since you have to invest (almost at least) in every ability and you will find even the action points sparse. It also comes by the ability to cast self buffs, constant smites, LoH, slef healing, etc. When Im on my healer, I know I have to keep a constant eye on the barbarian, he WILL die if I dont heal him/her - I also know the Paladin can take care of himself if needed or if Im unable to hel him/her!

[aerosole]

That's pretty much how I look at arties and bards, although in a last-man-standing situation I suppose pallys have the upper hand.

I'd still prefer to be preventive medicine than emergency surgery though.

Paladins are great when they can step in as off-tank should things go south, e.g. the main-tank d/c. Or even better, when they are main-tanking themselves.

For emergency healing purposes, yea, arties and bards are so much better. And considering the party buffs they bring, a warchanter or arty's actual dps contribution is probably a lot more than the paladin.

As someone said, the melee FvS with triple-stacked DP is probably doing a ton more dps than the paladin, while providing emergency healing when the main healers are down :D

Paladins bring the most to the party when they are capable tanks + dps. If the paladin can't tank... then he is inferior to every other class in the game (even rangers are situationally better... e.g. they can deal with crystal in shroud, pillars in LoB etc). They do add something to the party if their auras help to push the main tank's ac into the 95% damage mitigation zone, but even that is going to go away in a few days' time...

[Truga]

Paladins are (currently) by far the best tanks. I run with an 28pointer human paladin with ~800 hp, ~90 AC and threat gen all the way from here to China.

[Blackmoors]

Well, i am a real lover of self-sufficiency, so i try to build every toon with some sort of self-healing cause i prefer to be alive doing some dps than dead doing 0 dps and claiming my dps is uber. The problem is that every class, if well-built, can achieve great self-sufficiency while still outdpsing paladins by a great margin.

Barbarians with sf pots are almost as self-sufficient paladins but their dps is way better and they work well against anything, while paladins are just good against evil outsiders (or undeads if you are HotD) and suck bad against anything else.

Paladins do less damage against non Evil Outsiders...? Strange, didnt knew that since weapons of Good works on evil every mob... ;)

Smartness aside, Paladins deal good DPS (at least mine does), granted they are behind Fighters and Barbarians (and they should be anyway) but they have other attributes and contribute in other ways. Again, I did never said Paladins are the best in dealing damage but I also know for certainly that almost everyone that say Paladins suck haven't played one properly or extensively. I for one loath playing a Barbarian, I find it the most simple and boring class. That said, I have played it a lot and know what their advantages are and how fast they can kill a mob... I also know they can die fighting the trainning dummy and that says a lot of the class itself :rolleyes:

PS - SF pots are usable by every class and IMO are a game aberration in the same way Mnemonic Pots are but they are ingame and as such we have to count them as a tool I guess... :cool:

[aerosole]

That said, I have played it a lot and know what their advantages are and how fast they can kill a mob... I also know they can die fighting the trainning dummy and that says a lot of the class itself :rolleyes:


Craft a holy/shocking burst + vampirism weapon. With >100% healing amp, your barb will recover 2 tp 6 hp that will offsets frenzy damage, effectively allowing you to be in perma-frenzy mode with constant vicious damage boost and +crit multipler. You can always swap back to your main dps weapon when the healer's around.

Or just use your main weapon for speed records and use the vampiric one to recover hp afterwards :)

Btw, you can't really die from frenzy though you can incap yourself...

[Enoach]

When I find people complaining about their paladin life I usually find it accompanied by any number of the following:


Statements About its DPS, such as My Fighter or Barbarian has more DPS
Silver Flame Pots make you just a survivable
People trying to play a Paladin like its a gimped Fighter/Barbarian


First, I'm going to point out I'm not blind to the advantages that Extra Feats give a Fighter (even though most fighters I've run across squander that advantage by taking 7 Toughness Feats), I'm also not blind to the fact that Barbarian Rages can Hulk out a players Strength and Constitution (But I also run into Barbarians that won't rage or run out of Rages)

Now I'm a DoS Paladin myself. I've given up the ability to rage while in stance for the +6 to Str/Con. My Primary stats are Strength, Constitution, Charisma and Intelligence (for CE requirement).

I've played a Fighter and a Barbarian and agree that they can be powerful when used to their full potential, just sad that many players don't have the dedication to do that.

I guess I'm rare here on the Forums (not as rare as I once thought since I do see paladin supporters in this post). I do not find I have 1/2 or 1/3 of the DPS of a Fighter/Barbarian as some are claiming that it takes 2x to 3x longer to kill stuff. I find that it is actually closer to 80% to 90% (1 to 1.5 swings behind) and depending on the enemy up to 150% (Evil/Undead), with the ability to survive in extreme conditions.

I like to do extreme questing on my Paladin, be it solo'ng (not even a hireling) Elite Sins at level 18 with no ship buffs or a house P Epic. I have always believed the true test of a Tank is in its own ability to stay alive while under heavy fire.

So I understand Paladin is not the class for you, that's ok and I won't hold it against you. But before you call paladins useless and $%# dps understand its very possible that your not tapping into its full potential.

Proud Paladin since '06

Enoach

[Isolani]

LOL, this is so true,

I once tried to "sneak" around with my rogue, and everone ended up yelling because I was slowing them down while hacking away everything :P. It was hillarious.

This reminds me.. has anyone ever done the Framework quest, without setting up an alarm? Just wondering.

The framework optional doesn't require much in the way of stealth, just invis spell or clickies, run into the end fight area and use the wand to stone the minotaur runts before they can get to the alarm. The runts are the only ones that will set off the alarm. This is assuming you invised your way to the end fight area and didn't set off any alarms along the way.

Edit: Oh, and yeah, paladins aren't my cup of tea either. Still debating whether to use xp stone for a paladin life or a barbarian life, I have no desire to play either of those classes.

[Truga]

I have always believed the true test of a Tank is in its own ability to stay alive while under heavy fire.

Yep. This is where paladins shine. They're literally indestructible when played right.

[aerosole]

I guess I'm rare here on the Forums (not as rare as I once thought since I do see paladin supporters in this post). I do not find I have 1/2 or 1/3 of the DPS of a Fighter/Barbarian as some are claiming that it takes 2x to 3x longer to kill stuff. I find that it is actually closer to 80% to 90% (1 to 1.5 swings behind) and depending on the enemy up to 150% (Evil/Undead), with the ability to survive in extreme conditions.


Paladins, especially 28-pt TWF versions, have severe to-hit issues. My first life paladin/monk hybrid has less than 30 STR (yes, TWF too) and can barely hit stuff in epics. Turning off power attack is par for the course, and that does quite a number on your dps.... and I still misses.

Then, I learn the game, TR'ed him and fix a ton of build issues, while converting him to DoS at the same time. But not all paladins out there are TRs or have run enough epics/raids to get decent gear to fix their dps or to-hit problems.

It's easy to forget the problems new players have with paladins once we ourselves become more skilled in the game. :)

[Llewndyn]

To all the paladin players out there, I'm sorry... I never really knew.

I am about to finish my 2nd paladin life on my TR junky character. On my last life I went Monk-9 / Paladin-10, and I thought "hey this isnt so bad... I have "ok" DPS and I'm pretty sturdy". This time around I went with a more classic split of 18-Paladin / 2-Monk. Last life I barely remembered to use smites and divine sacrifice. This life I spam them every time they are off cooldown and even IF i had 20 smites instead of my 8, I'm not sure I'd care much for the class. DM-III increasing damage by 6 sounded good on paper but even with +9 damage from DM+DF and Zeal most other builds I have played were taking things down at least 20% faster from lvl 14+ (Melee builds i mean... blue bars is a whole different game)

I'm sure it'd be ok to tank with etc but good lord the DPS is just horrid. This is coming from a character on his 6th life with all kinds of goodies in the bank. I cant imagine that poor first life paladin.

So I just wanted to extend my condolences to all the paladin players out there... Here's hoping Turbine will throw you a bone in the U14 or 15.

Grim

Edit: I do want to say that yes this 18/2 life is very durable and self sufficient, but not terribly more so than most of my other lives when carrying pots wands and clickies.

This is EXACTLY what I have found. 5th life toward completionist, Paladin sucks. How is it alright to be level 16 and doing the same amount of damage per hit on average as a level 10 barbarian? I went Hunter of the Undead, and it was...OK.... I don't have the HP numbers even with gfl and a +6 item and pretty decent gear on, I get told all the time pure Paladin is not the way to go to get decent AC, and for THIS particular character I wanted to go completionist all pure lives so that is out, the DPS is absolutely terrible. I have found no real saving grace to this class, and it's a shame because when I think Paladin I have fond remembrance to Final Fantasy Tactics and mowing enemies down with little more than the power of my Holy Force, and then you play them here and....meh. For the record I changed over to KotC for Vale and am so far floored by the mediocrity.

I wrote this in my blog on our guild website yesterday, just thought I would share:

So, I am getting to that magical point. I am level 16 now, about a rank and a half from 17, which is where I stopped banking levels on my bard life before, and I can say this time, without a doubt, I will never roll another paladin again. Paladins are great if:

1. You like shield blocking
2. You like clickies
3. You don't mind having to work harder to do the same amount of DPS that every other class seems to get naturally. I am going to go off on a tangent here. On my barb life I had 32 Strength unbuffed. I OFTEN forgot to fully rage/ guild rage/ double madstone rage/ put on my sequined red thong of rage and even when I didn't I was able to outkill anything else in the group when I put my mind to it with no problems (yes even casters, have screenshots with prominent multi-TRs to prove it). On my 2nd life sorc I could hit 1 or 2 max empowered lightning bolts and clear a room. Even as a bard I could fascinate everything and then bop em with Terror.

Not so this life. It's so annoying running into a room with 38-40 buffed STR and hacking away at stuff for 50-60 a hit... and then learning while I was killing this one guy everyone else had completed the quest. I just changed from Hunter of the Dead to Knight of the Chalice, waiting to see if that makes any difference. I have a decent sword, a +3 Silver Holy bastard of PG, IC Slashing, bloodstone, barb rage, doesn't seem to make a difference. Every once in a while I will smite something for 250-350, which is kick ass, but most of the time... meh

4. You don't particularly enjoy staying pure: One of the resounding themes I have run into is that in order to command the decent AC numbers (I have attained my goal of walking around unbuffed 40 AC) you need to take a few levels in other classes, and this seems not right to me. I want to be a pure Paladin with a good tanking AC. I have good gear and a little money. Why doth this not seem to be happening?
5. You like running slow

Anything a Paladin can do a kobold Shaman in Waterworks can do better.

[Keybreaker]

First off capstone gives a huge boost to dps so by taking 2 levels monk you decided to sacrifice dps for survivability. You didnt mention what type of prestige you took. Kotc is dps build. Also three THF feats since kotc capstone and kotc ring set apply to glancing blows. All this is what makes the pally a path of destruction. You built it wrong. Reroll and try again.

I had a WF 20pal with Silver Epic SoS (first and maybe only one on Orien), KotC3, Lorinthors Set, and Weapons of Good captstone. This was before Horc, so WF was max PA + Two-Handed damage, and this was before Devil's Ruin Crystals, so 20pal with capstone was the only way to have a DR-breaking eSoS. This was also when KotC bonus hit not only Evil Outsiders, but all Undead for extra damage as well.

Smites would occasionally crit for 800+ and I thought it was good DPS (the +100% incite "cheat" button masked a lot).

But when I TR'd into a 18brb/2ftr FB3, I realized I was doing much, much, much more damage vs all enemy types, including Evil Outsiders and Undead.

The only good thing I can say about Paladin is that it has the best passive and active PL feats of any melee class!
I have a pallie PL on all three of my melee toons.

[MacRighteous]

Number crunching is short sighted - DPS burst is a trap - you dont do any damage when you are dead or helpless - slow and steady always trumps - go ahead and spend all your money sucking down pots - ill use the money i save funding ALL my alts addiction.

MacR

[Ralmeth]

Playing a Paladin is awesome, but it is definitely not for everyone. It comes down to a playstyle preference. If you want max DPS, if you don't like managing short term buffs and clickies, etc., then a Paladin is not for you. However if you like playing a melee and you like the challenge of managing short term buffs and clickies, you like being super survivable while having a decent DPS, want to be able to tank well, have emergency healing, can buff yourself and others, can raise and help out other people in the party, and can keep the party going when things start hitting the fan (because they will at some point), then a Paladin might be right for you. Yes, Paladin DPS is not top dog, but you can have decent DPS and in exchange for lowering your DPS you gain all of the other benefits that a Paladin brings to the table.

I think another big issue is that to play a Paladin well, balance is the biggest key. You have to balance your stats, feats, equipment so that you have both decent DPS and maintain your survivability. I LRd one of my Paladins once (2-3 years ago) into a full, maxed out DPS Paladin (i.e. as much DPS as I could get at the cost of my survivability) and I was really disappointed with the results. I had better DPS than previously, but I was taking tons of damage and basically needed a full time healer to keep me up because I didn't have the DPS to blow through mobs. So I can see where some people have problems with playing a Paladin. However, I think the best Paladins in the game today are tanks that are built to have a proper balance of both DPS and survivability. Also, this doesn't mean you have to be DoS. When I TRd my main, I think I went Hunter of the Dead until level 15-16 before switching to DoS. It's really only at higher levels that you need to get your AC a lot higher, but we'll see about that come the new update.

[Chai]

Paladin is what I called stars aligned DPS. When critting on a smite with DF + DM + zealed up etc they are decent. Too bad it only works when Saturn is in eclipse formation with the sun, Mercury is in retrograde, and Pluto is in the 7th house synastry, on even numbered day Tuesdays and Fridays, after noon but before 7PM.

[wayreth602]

Number crunching is short sighted - DPS burst is a trap - you dont do any damage when you are dead or helpless - slow and steady always trumps - go ahead and spend all your money sucking down pots - ill use the money i save funding ALL my alts addiction.

MacR

How is your pally rouge build going? I am thinking about TRing my bard into a pally to get the heal amp from the past life. My bard enjoys his evasion (2 rouge levels I do the traps for my duo) and I won't stay at cap long as a pally.

[Keybreaker]

slow and steady always trumps

No.

[Bosco]

I had a WF 20pal with Silver Epic SoS (first and maybe only one on Orien), KotC3, Lorinthors Set, and Weapons of Good captstone. This was before Horc, so WF was max PA + Two-Handed damage, and this was before Devil's Ruin Crystals, so 20pal with capstone was the only way to have a DR-breaking eSoS. This was also when KotC bonus hit not only Evil Outsiders, but all Undead for extra damage as well.

Smites would occasionally crit for 800+ and I thought it was good DPS (the +100% incite "cheat" button masked a lot).

But when I TR'd into a 18brb/2ftr FB3, I realized I was doing much, much, much more damage vs all enemy types, including Evil Outsiders and Undead.

The only good thing I can say about Paladin is that it has the best passive and active PL feats of any melee class!
I have a pallie PL on all three of my melee toons.

I totally agree with you that Barb has far superior dps to a Pally. The op stating that Pally is not a dps class is still a farce. Kotc maybe situational but also has the only solid quick healing of the melee classes. Its a balance. Same as when someone decides to take 2 levels of monk. Sure one gets evasion and a slight save improvement with feats but at the same time a loss of dps. It's a shame these players never went pure to understand how big that capstone is in terms of dps.

[Sarisa]

I used a 15 Pali/3 Rog/2 Fighter build. No capstone, but it was more a levelling build than something to use at cap. It's still reasonably effective in live-epics (since I can cover the trapper role as needed, and usually tank the bosses effectively), but I don't waste my or other people's time bringing the Pali into raids (not enough AC to raid-tank, not enough DPS or utility to be productive elsewhere, and that's even with an eSoS and an eXuum).

Pali felt decent DPS when levelling up to a point. In the low levels, there is not a huge difference between the various classes damage, it's mostly in the weapons. It's not until the PrE's start to kick in that the gaps really start showing. With good equipment (base SoS, GS weapons, lots of twink crafted and raid loot), up to 15 or 16 and I was able to hold my own fairly well with the average similarly equipped Fighter (Barbs definitely started outdamaging me earlier).

Once the good multiclass melees started filling out their PrE's, there was no contest. The Pali was definitely survivable, but the last few levels just felt like I was piking, the damage was so poor. Aside from STR increases, and boosts to smites/Divine Sacrifice, the average DPS did not improve much at all between the time I could use my SoS and Greensteel until cap. Burst DPS is no substitute for the real thing.

HotD was definitely the most effective when levelling. I never bothered with KotC, because that was the time frame that end game was no longer ruled by outsiders. I fairly quickly switched over to DoS II when DoS was changed around u11, which actually improved my damage by increasing my STR.

[Bosco]

This is EXACTLY what I have found. 5th life toward completionist, Paladin sucks. How is it alright to be level 16 and doing the same amount of damage per hit on average as a level 10 barbarian? I went Hunter of the Undead, and it was...OK.... I don't have the HP numbers even with gfl and a +6 item and pretty decent gear on, I get told all the time pure Paladin is not the way to go to get decent AC, and for THIS particular character I wanted to go completionist all pure lives so that is out, the DPS is absolutely terrible. I have found no real saving grace to this class, and it's a shame because when I think Paladin I have fond remembrance to Final Fantasy Tactics and mowing enemies down with little more than the power of my Holy Force, and then you play them here and....meh. For the record I changed over to KotC for Vale and am so far floored by the mediocrity.

I wrote this in my blog on our guild website yesterday, just thought I would share:

So, I am getting to that magical point. I am level 16 now, about a rank and a half from 17, which is where I stopped banking levels on my bard life before, and I can say this time, without a doubt, I will never roll another paladin again. Paladins are great if:

1. You like shield blocking
2. You like clickies
3. You don't mind having to work harder to do the same amount of DPS that every other class seems to get naturally. I am going to go off on a tangent here. On my barb life I had 32 Strength unbuffed. I OFTEN forgot to fully rage/ guild rage/ double madstone rage/ put on my sequined red thong of rage and even when I didn't I was able to outkill anything else in the group when I put my mind to it with no problems (yes even casters, have screenshots with prominent multi-TRs to prove it). On my 2nd life sorc I could hit 1 or 2 max empowered lightning bolts and clear a room. Even as a bard I could fascinate everything and then bop em with Terror.

Not so this life. It's so annoying running into a room with 38-40 buffed STR and hacking away at stuff for 50-60 a hit... and then learning while I was killing this one guy everyone else had completed the quest. I just changed from Hunter of the Dead to Knight of the Chalice, waiting to see if that makes any difference. I have a decent sword, a +3 Silver Holy bastard of PG, IC Slashing, bloodstone, barb rage, doesn't seem to make a difference. Every once in a while I will smite something for 250-350, which is kick ass, but most of the time... meh

4. You don't particularly enjoy staying pure: One of the resounding themes I have run into is that in order to command the decent AC numbers (I have attained my goal of walking around unbuffed 40 AC) you need to take a few levels in other classes, and this seems not right to me. I want to be a pure Paladin with a good tanking AC. I have good gear and a little money. Why doth this not seem to be happening?
5. You like running slow

Anything a Paladin can do a kobold Shaman in Waterworks can do better.

I am guessing you go sword and board for your pally. So I take it you go sword and board for all your other melee classes as well? Build for ac or build for dps. It is very rare to have a build that does both sufficiently. However, don't complain about a lack of dps using a one handed weapon and a shield. A proper dps build for a paladin is fairly close to a barb and a fighter. 18 or 20 str dump wis, dex and int put the rest into cha and con.

[Sirea]

Paladins definately aren't a good choice for a first character. Almost everyone I have talked to that started on paladin ended up abandoning it and having a ton more fun on a barbarian or fighter.

My first character I ever rolled was a paladin. She got abandoned in favor of casters, rerolled a few times, and I'm finally at the point where I like her. She's survivable, a pretty good tank, and decent DPS. I find fighters boring at best (and my fighter is a utilitarian-type build, and I still find her boring when compared to my pally, ranger, and monk), and I absolutely hate barbarians. I'm already thinking about cheesing out my barb life on my completionist by utilizing +5 hearts, I hate them so much I'll spend the money to bypass as much barb play as I can.

Paladins can be hard to get right, but I find them to be a great class because of their versatility and survivability. Took me a while, but I warmed up to them.

[Chai]

...and I absolutely hate barbarians. I'm already thinking about cheesing out my barb life on my completionist by utilizing +5 hearts, I hate them so much I'll spend the money to bypass as much barb play as I can.

Perfect +8 level stone opportunity right there folks.

[Sirea]

Perfect +8 level stone opportunity right there folks.

Unfortunately, because I'm the best wife ever, I used my Stone of XP on a FvS life so my husband could use it on his barb life on his completionist.

[wayreth602]

Perfect +8 level stone opportunity right there folks.

Yeppers, I used one on my WF barb who won a True hart and will TR him at 20 as fast as I can.

[hecate355]

Craft a holy/shocking burst + vampirism weapon. With >100% healing amp, your barb will recover 2 tp 6 hp that will offsets frenzy damage, effectively allowing you to be in perma-frenzy mode with constant vicious damage boost and +crit multipler. You can always swap back to your main dps weapon when the healer's around.

Or just use your main weapon for speed records and use the vampiric one to recover hp afterwards :)

Btw, you can't really die from frenzy though you can incap yourself...

Every little effect you miss from weapons damage potential(you spend prefix) is usually far bigger than your win(vampirism). People who call themselves dps, cant give up half of their weapon potential just to negate frenzy damage. Now i know it sounds bit dogmatic, but i personally wouldnt want to go for such compromise.

Plus i have hard time believing vampiric weapon will sufficient in any serious situation, it doesent cover your healing needs. High ac monks with very many attacks may benefit from such approach, but not barb who takes quite some damage.

[hecate355]

When I find people complaining about their paladin life I usually find it accompanied by any number of the following:


Statements About its DPS, such as My Fighter or Barbarian has more DPS
Silver Flame Pots make you just a survivable
People trying to play a Paladin like its a gimped Fighter/Barbarian


First, I'm going to point out I'm not blind to the advantages that Extra Feats give a Fighter (even though most fighters I've run across squander that advantage by taking 7 Toughness Feats), I'm also not blind to the fact that Barbarian Rages can Hulk out a players Strength and Constitution (But I also run into Barbarians that won't rage or run out of Rages)

Now I'm a DoS Paladin myself. I've given up the ability to rage while in stance for the +6 to Str/Con. My Primary stats are Strength, Constitution, Charisma and Intelligence (for CE requirement).

I've played a Fighter and a Barbarian and agree that they can be powerful when used to their full potential, just sad that many players don't have the dedication to do that.

I guess I'm rare here on the Forums (not as rare as I once thought since I do see paladin supporters in this post). I do not find I have 1/2 or 1/3 of the DPS of a Fighter/Barbarian as some are claiming that it takes 2x to 3x longer to kill stuff. I find that it is actually closer to 80% to 90% (1 to 1.5 swings behind) and depending on the enemy up to 150% (Evil/Undead), with the ability to survive in extreme conditions.

I like to do extreme questing on my Paladin, be it solo'ng (not even a hireling) Elite Sins at level 18 with no ship buffs or a house P Epic. I have always believed the true test of a Tank is in its own ability to stay alive while under heavy fire.

So I understand Paladin is not the class for you, that's ok and I won't hold it against you. But before you call paladins useless and $%# dps understand its very possible that your not tapping into its full potential.

Proud Paladin since '06

Enoach

Wanna know what i compare my paladins dps with? The average equipped 28p lord of blades wf melee capable fvs i had not too long ago. Now yes paladins have some niche things(smite, aura, saves, possibly intimidate), that fvs had quite some quirks as well(enough mana and healing power to be main healer not to mentions saving yourself, 10 to your base DR etc)

But pure damage output on longer run, when smite benefit evens out, is very close to melee fvs. Neither of them had 2hf line, similar damage potential.

[Kylstrem]

Leveling a barb on completionist run is tons easier than a Paladin.

Once you get Supreme Cleave, you are going to be flying through quests.

But I suppose there are those who want to "role-play" through every completionist life and enjoying doing each of those slow and easy.

[MacRighteous]

How is your pally rouge build going? I am thinking about TRing my bard into a pally to get the heal amp from the past life. My bard enjoys his evasion (2 rouge levels I do the traps for my duo) and I won't stay at cap long as a pally.

Good - I'm really enjoying the rogue levels for traps and locks

I currently play 3 Paladins

My Main: MacRighteous 10th level THF - he's a beast - been farming Lordsmarch and GH on Normal and Hard and haven't had a bit of trouble with him even though he's 2 to 4 levels below the dungeons hes farming.

Test build: Also named MacRighteous 10th TWF - but on a different server - kind of a failure - I went with rogue and ranger levels for traps and a few bow feats (similar to GuntherBovine's build for his lousy equipment guide) but pretty much abandon him - but really only because he is on a different server and I decided to consolidate all my efforts on just one server.

And my stone paladin TheReformed 14th paladin /2 rogue THF - and I got it right on him!! I'm back tracking to gain favor and gear up properly right now- (except for the cloak and belt the stone gear was a joke) - but i completely farmed LM and got all the marks for upgrades - just waiting on pulling the staff of shadows and hes off to the races but man i like not missing chests and evasion is awesome - although i switch out the light armor for the gorgon armor on him a lot to play with the turn to stone clicky - that a lot of fun right there.

I highly recommend the paladin trapper for solo'ers - he is a one man party.

MacR

[zeonardo]

Been there (http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/Heall/).

Took me 3 lives to realize that 7/7/6 pal/rog/mnk was the way to go. (for pali past life)

1st life: 16/4 paladin/monk helf - just terribad
My plan was DoS 3 but I almost died out of boredom and just rushed ahead to take more monk levels and end that misery. Stood at cap for 4 minutes.

2nd life: 12/7/1 pal/mnk/rog helf - meh
Trap skills to solo. This one was kind of nice. But not enough.

3rd life: 7/7/6 pal/rog/mnk halfling - nice!
Very nice build. Halfling Guile 3, assassin 1 and all that sneak damage backed up by stunning fists and decent AC and UMD.
One of the most fun characters I have played.

But now thinking about that, it could have been a 7 rogue, 6 monk and 7 coyle splash and it would still work.

[MacRighteous]

Been there (http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/Heall/).

But now thinking about that, it could have been a 7 rogue, 6 monk and 7 coyle splash and it would still work.

LOL - now thats funny right there - low blow bro - low blow... :)


MacR

[Asirin]

Mebbe your pallys "meh" but not mine.

Mebbe I didn't get the memo.

[Quetzacoala]

Paladins are not for everyone; they sacrifice damage dealing potential for superior healing and survivability capabilities.

That being said, I do feel that paladins are in need of assistance; it is simply ridiculous that a barbarian can closely match the healing abilities of a paladin by using Silver Flame potions, even though barbarians are all about dealing damage and paladins are all about self-sufficiency. This needs to be addressed, most likely by increasing the healing abilities of the paladin class.

Below are a few of my suggestions to help improve paladins.

1. Have Lay on Hands regenerate over time, perhaps reducing the amount of time required to regenerate a Lay on Hands based on how many levels of paladin a character possesses.

2. Grant paladins 5% healing amplification every five levels.

3. Increase the duration of most short-term paladin buffs.

4. As suggested earlier, make Divine Sacrifice a metamagic-like ability.

[morticianjohn]

Paladins are not for everyone; they sacrifice damage dealing potential for superior healing and survivability capabilities.

That being said, I do feel that paladins are in need of assistance; it is simply ridiculous that a barbarian can closely match the healing abilities of a paladin by using Silver Flame potions, even though barbarians are all about dealing damage and paladins are all about self-sufficiency. This needs to be addressed, most likely by increasing the healing abilities of the paladin class.

Below are a few of my suggestions to help improve paladins.

1. Have Lay on Hands regenerate over time, perhaps reducing the amount of time required to regenerate a Lay on Hands based on how many levels of paladin a character possesses.

2. Grant paladins 5% healing amplification every five levels.

3. Increase the duration of most short-term paladin buffs.

4. As suggested earlier, make Divine Sacrifice a metamagic-like ability.

I don't think it's a problem that barbs can achieve the self sufficiency of paladin by obtaining silver flame pots. I don't think it's a problem that cleric/fvs can reach melee damage potential of a paladin while being more self sufficient. After all paladin have the best saves.

[pHo3nix]

Paladins do less damage against non Evil Outsiders...? Strange, didnt knew that since weapons of Good works on evil every mob... ;)

Smartness aside, Paladins deal good DPS (at least mine does), granted they are behind Fighters and Barbarians (and they should be anyway) but they have other attributes and contribute in other ways. Again, I did never said Paladins are the best in dealing damage but I also know for certainly that almost everyone that say Paladins suck haven't played one properly or extensively. I for one loath playing a Barbarian, I find it the most simple and boring class. That said, I have played it a lot and know what their advantages are and how fast they can kill a mob... I also know they can die fighting the trainning dummy and that says a lot of the class itself :rolleyes:

PS - SF pots are usable by every class and IMO are a game aberration in the same way Mnemonic Pots are but they are ingame and as such we have to count them as a tool I guess... :cool:

KotC grants benefits against Evil outsiders.

You forgot rogues, they deal way more damage than paladins.

Again, paladin DPS sucks bad, their survivability is great, but most classes can achieve a good survivability if well built.