How awful are thrower builds?

[Mavnas]

Please note, the question isn't are they bad, it's how much DPS they give up over other ranged builds. I imagine Shuriken expertise is at least mildly helpful now if you get your dex in your 30s and your per attack bonus damage is at least 30% higher than the difference between a shuriken's base damage and that of a different ranged weapon. (Actually... this last bit can't be too hard.)

I just can't figure out the difference in attack speeds between repeaters, bows, and thrown weapons given all the feats and special abilities that impact them.

[captain1z]

I remember there was this one guy (just one guy) on ghallanda, who had a halfling fighter and did not carry a melee weapon of any sort. He started his own groups, welcomed anyone, was very patient and one of the nicest guys ive ever grouped with. He was also very well versed on most quests. That said, his character was terribly gimped. No one on the server seemed to mind because he was a great guy but his character, in gianthold at 16th level, was subpar to say the least.

Throwing, even at a boosted rate, suffers not only from a low dice cap (best is handaxe at 1D6). It also has the most ignored weapon group in the loot tables. The 2 best throwing weapons i can think of are a vorpal shuriken and a dwarven thrower, maybe a paralyzer.

Expect to be mocked, expect to kite a lot but if you have high umd, the character would not be without redeeming value.

[captain1z]

As an aside, manyshot makes bows more valueable. Repeaters have permanent manyshot, low crit ranges but no strength bonus. None of the above applies to thrown last i checked, which was over a year ago, so my knoweldge may be dated.

[Jasparion]

I remember there was this one guy (just one guy) on ghallanda, who had a halfling fighter and did not carry a melee weapon of any sort. He started his own groups, welcomed anyone, was very patient and one of the nicest guys ive ever grouped with. He was also very well versed on most quests. That said, his character was terribly gimped. No one on the server seemed to mind because he was a great guy but his character, in gianthold at 16th level, was subpar to say the least.

Throwing, even at a boosted rate, suffers not only from a low dice cap (best is handaxe at 1D6). It also has the most ignored weapon group in the loot tables. The 2 best throwing weapons i can think of are a vorpal shuriken and a dwarven thrower, maybe a paralyzer.

Expect to be mocked, expect to kite a lot but if you have high umd, the character would not be without redeeming value.

I remember reading about one guy who could do 50 - 100 damage per Shuriken which is pretty impressive. This was with the very best gear he could find, and with everything focussed on getting maximum damage. Now, this amount of damage certainly put him above regular PuGGers, but nowhere near melee people who have the very best gear and total focus on DPS.

I read about another guy with a Dwarf focussed on using the Dwarven Thrower getting a lot of DPS until mid teen levels when the Dwarven Thrower really started to fall away.

If someone really wants to go down this path, a very useful thing to do is to have the best available Seeker weapon/shield in the Off-Hand.

[Falco_Easts]

As an aside, manyshot makes bows more valueable. Repeaters have permanent manyshot, low crit ranges but no strength bonus. None of the above applies to thrown last i checked, which was over a year ago, so my knoweldge may be dated.

It's not :(

I have tried a couple of times because I like the idea of a thrower build. I run or 2 quests and shelve him again for another month or two :(

[Jaid314]

thrower builds are (potentially) better than they used to be.

that said, they're still terrible.

the "best" thrower build if i'm not mistaken would be a (drow) ninja spy monk throwing shurikens. add in 10k stars for a mini-manyshot, and with shuriken expertise you could do slightly less terrible damage than you normally might expect.

of course, there's a big difference between "good" and "less bad".

[PurpleTimb]

Now that returning throwing weapons can be crafted you can craft a much improved thrower. My acrobat/monk carries a +5 holy silver shuriken of greater lawful outsider bane and a +5 holy burst shuriken of pure good. I off-hand a crafted seeker +8 kama of ranged alactrity +10%. Even with those and 10k stars, my ranged DPS is miles behind my quarterstaff DPS. And quarterstaff DPS is miles behind most everything else.

About a year ago I tried to play a throwing axe speced dwarven barbarian using Sig Trent's 'Chuck' build (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1710950)as a guide. It was fun in the low levels, especially in explorer areas, but after about 8th level it was just too painful standing there throwing when I knew a greataxe would be hitting twice as fast for double the damage.

I agree with Jaid. Definitely slightly 'less bad,' but still a long way from good.

[amnota]

Halfling thrower builds are fun.

Of course the trick is in knowing just how to bend the halfling...otherwise they never come back.

[redspecter23]

1. Let me dual wield throwers and I'll be a bit intrigued.

2. Perhaps an active clickie ability that lets me toss say 10 all at once. Put it on a 30 second cooldown.

3. Allow rogues/artificers to toss "sticky bombs" at mobs and detonate them at will, creating an AOE of "splodey" goo. Combine with #1 and/or #2 for max fun.

Basically throwers are just plain slow and not very fun. Even the best throwers can't keep up with average melee. Implement some changes so that it's a reasonable fighting style and players will come around. I think we're still waiting on the "ranged pass" for bow users so I'm not holding my breath.

[masterzzan]

only reason i keep a throwing weapon on my casters is to break objects and sue levers from afar without wasting my sp. then again i also have unending wands that can do that

[threefeetunder]

Just pointing this out, the shiradi champion Destiny on lama has an enhancement that increase thrown weapon speed up to 60% (subject to change at any time). Hopefully that survives beta and gets to live, it's a pretty **** nice buff to my halfing shuriken thrower :D

[RandomKeypress]

Just pointing this out, the shiradi champion Destiny on lama has an enhancement that increase thrown weapon speed up to 60% (subject to change at any time). Hopefully that survives beta and gets to live, it's a pretty **** nice buff to my halfing shuriken thrower :D

I seem to recall that a Dev hinted that there may be a thrown weapons pass during the enhancement update when this epic enhancement was discussed.

Thrown weapon builds may be a lot more viable in a few months' time. Maybe.

[threefeetunder]

I seem to recall that a Dev hinted that there may be a thrown weapons pass during the enhancement update when this epic enhancement was discussed.

Thrown weapon builds may be a lot more viable in a few months' time. Maybe.

That was Vargouille who said that, can't seem to find that exact quote though, one can only hope it's true.

I'm on a tiny private crusade to make throwing weapons relevant. And boost the rest of ranged, but throwing is the red-headed stepchild of ranged fighting. This may take some time. (It may even been said that Whirling Wrists is too strong. I await the day when shuriken nerfs are demanded. Bwahahahaha!)

[erikbozelie]

well to be really honest, its in the "might just work" category.
ive made a 370± ish dps build that looks good on paper. before haste, haste boost, and any tod haste competance bonus.
never actually rolled it.

there was a thread some while ago where i made ( do note i was half asleep when i wrote that) a brainstorm about a thrower build, here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=367631) is the link.

also note that it multiplies when hitting multiple enemies with improved precise shot.

[EpiKagEMO]

You'll be hitting less than half of the AA's damage. When he pops out manyshoot, your damage looks like chicken feed compared to his. I've seen a vorpal thrower get a decent amount of damage : )

[erikbozelie]

You'll be hitting less than half of the AA's damage. When he pops out manyshoot, your damage looks like chicken feed compared to his. I've seen a vorpal thrower get a decent amount of damage : )

can you show math instead of just a statements?

[S0rdmasta]

Throwing a bit of info into the mix. When they first changed the blades in the shroud, I crafted up a +5 silver holy throwing axe of pure good. Its a throwing version of the greataxe I use on harry.

The blades turned out to not be such a big problem so I never used the thrower until a week ago, I thought I would test it for lols. As harry was near to dead in round 5 I threw it at him a bunch of times and was surprised at the damage. It was a bit better than half the damage I would expect from the great axe. Looking at mid 30's to 40's primary damage + holy and PG effects.

I don't know how that compares to the bow in capable hands. But it wasn't as pathetic as I was expecting and it did make me wonder what sort of DPS one could achieve with a feat or two.

[Mastikator]

Got Shuriken Expertize, Quick Draw and 10k Stars on my monk build. Usually single of double hits, occasionally triple and sometimes rarely it hits 4 times, which leads me to believe that Shuriken Expertize and 10k Stars proc each other, or something, or procs have a chance to proc.
With a wounding shuriken of bleed it's... not terrible. It's probably between 60-100% increase in DPS over a monk without anything, but still, 100% increase to "very little" is still "little".

If you can get 3 past lives of ranger then it might be ok.

Don't take unless you're swimming in feats is my advice. Luckily fighter/monk combo swims in feats :P

[wax_on_wax_off]

The "best" thrower build would undoubtedly be a 12 rogue/6 monk/2 fighter with improved sneak attack, shuriken expertise, high str/dex/wis (level ups in wis or dex) and Shiradi Champion. This build would still be terrible but it's as good as you can get, probably expect 60% of the DPS of a bow build which puts out less than a melee build.

With the 2 fighter I think there is enough feats to fit in GTWF'ing so can still do moderate melee DPS. Can use my Starry-eyed Rouge build in my index as a base and pick up 4 spare fits, 1 for Shuriken Expertise, Quickdraw, TWF'ing and ITWF, would like to be able to take IC:B (for loot gen radiance wraps) and GTWF but no room. Epic Feats are Improved Sneak Attack and maybe Combat Archery but +1[weapon] on a 1d2 weapon is pretty bad return for investment :P

[EpiKagEMO]

can you show math instead of just a statements?
Do I really have to do the math? It's quite obvious if you played them both :'(

I'll show you lazy math.
Please note: AVERAGE
At 20:
Average arrow=25 per shot-AA=+500 on a 20... Good luck beating that :)
Average thrower=25 per throw...Getting extra effects on your thrower... Tough luck. exception of U14, Now I see poison returners :)

Good rangers take or have rapid shot, therefore, more dps.

Speed from average arrow with many shoot=100 per shot
Multiplies with all other effects-pure good, Acid, Slaying on 20

When I saw the monk throwing his vorpal shurikens, I had in mind old school vorpal. The second he rolled a 20, +1 Kill.

[Luis_Velderve]

I was there at lammania /dragonmakers and Devs said that they were taking actions to allow viable thrower builds and Shiradi was part of that. I have a lvl 7 drow monk with quick draw, rapid shot, precise shot and shuriken expertise (for free).

Things that I can say:

DPS compared to a ranger, mechanic and arty is too low, my critical is 26 top.

Archer Focus can not be used with any thrown weapon, I expected to work with it and was surprised because is a new ability in the same time line of Devs declaration about their intentions with thrown weapons.

Point blank seems to work with thrown weapons.

10k stars is working well.

I have to conclude that Combat Archery is not going to work with thrown weapons because of the name of the feat, a real shame. (can someone confirm this?)
,
Thrown weapons are weak with an exception. Throwing axe because throwing axe damage is 1d6. Throwing hammer dice is a joke.

My question is, Do I need to survive up to lvl 20 to be able to do something decent with a thrower build? I think that you need to have and incredible tolerance to do that.


What can be done IMHO.

Change T. Hammer to 1d6 and decrease dart to 1d3

Archer Focus should be reworked to Missile Focus to cover T. Weapons

Combat Archery should be reworked to Combat Missiles to cover T. Weapons.

Adjustments to Rate of Fire, ROF for characters with improved critical thrown weapons in the order of
+1 to dart, shuriken, dagger

Adjustments to ROF for characters with Weapon Specialization
+1 to dart

Adjustment to ROF for characters with Greater Weapon Specialization
+1 to dart, shuriken and dagger
+1 to T. Axe and T. Hammer

This ideas are inspired in the old AD&D

[NovaNZ]

Hail all.

I have not played a Thrower build - previous posts have covered the -ve's.

However I have used the feat Brutal Throw on some STR based alts.

Brutal Throw
Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: +1 Base Attack Bonus, Strength 13
Description
You can use your Strength bonus instead of Dexterity bonus to determine bonus to attack with Thrown weapons if it is higher.
Note - A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Note - STR modifier applies to the to-hit and to-dammage rolls.

I only play dwarf race characters. With axe enhancements + seeker item - a Min II Throwing axe or crafted throwing axe (or vorpal returning - rare but achievable) it offers a useable contribution for when melee option is limited or when it is safer to stand off and let dedicated melees take the flak :D

EG - using MinII throwing axe with Str 40 - Average damage with no cits counted ~ 36-40 damage/throw.

Note - Keen property on thrown items is still not WAI.

Ie provides easy ranged option for fighter/barb, bard, rogue, cleric etc etc.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Thrower builds have a great personality. They have to.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

One of the best ways to help thrower builds, i think, would be to allow *ranged* feats to work with them. Theoretically, there is no reason I shouldn't be able to aim my shurikan so that it passes through friend and foe alike. Point blank shot, if the bow deals more damage, why not the thrown weapon? Then all that's left is giving thrown an advantage over ranged to make up for the really poor damage dice. I'd say, increase base thrown speed, and add a dual ranged allacrity feat. Allows you to equip thrown weapons in the off hand, and gives you a % based on your attack bonus to throw the second weapon. <5 = BAB+6%, 5-9 = 2*BAB+5%, 10-14 =3*BAB%, 15-20, 3*BAB +10%



As a side note, I only came across this thread while trying to make my own halfling thrower build. Going to go for a 13/6/1 druid/monk/ (fighter?) Druid allows for ki generation while a throwing weapon is equipped, allowing for interesting effects using a shuriken from evening star challenge vendors. It also lets me use spells to help trigger shiradi double rainbow effects

[Falco_Easts]

One of the best ways to help thrower builds, i think, would be to allow *ranged* feats to work with them. Theoretically, there is no reason I shouldn't be able to aim my shurikan so that it passes through friend and foe alike. Point blank shot, if the bow deals more damage, why not the thrown weapon? Then all that's left is giving thrown an advantage over ranged to make up for the really poor damage dice. I'd say, increase base thrown speed, and add a dual ranged allacrity feat. Allows you to equip thrown weapons in the off hand, and gives you a % based on your attack bonus to throw the second weapon. <5 = BAB+6%, 5-9 = 2*BAB+5%, 10-14 =3*BAB%, 15-20, 3*BAB +10%



As a side note, I only came across this thread while trying to make my own halfling thrower build. Going to go for a 13/6/1 druid/monk/ (fighter?) Druid allows for ki generation while a throwing weapon is equipped, allowing for interesting effects using a shuriken from evening star challenge vendors. It also lets me use spells to help trigger shiradi double rainbow effects

Most ranged feats work with them. Precise shot works in that it lets you go through mobs to hit your target, just not the Archers Focus part of it.

[ZeebaNeighba]

My AA can throw the boulders in abbot for 600 damage a pop and Shiradi procs. I like it.

[FranOhmsford]

The Devs changed Armours completely - Splint Mail and Banded Mail got thrown out with the Rubbish!

I would hope that the devs could do something similar for Weapons:

1. Get rid of Throwing Hammer as a Weapon type.

2. Get rid of Hand Axe as a Weapon type.

3. Get rid of Throwing Dagger as a Weapon type

3. Allow Warhammers and Light Hammers to be thrown IF Character has Weapon Focus Thrown.

4. Change Throwing Axes entirely - Give them New Stats - In between Hand-Axe and BattleAxe.

5. Allow Dwarves to Throw D-Axes if they have Weapon Focus Thrown.

6. Allow Daggers to be thrown if Character has taken Weapon Focus Thrown.

Oh and for goodness sake - Give Dwarven Clerics Warhammer Proficiency as a Free Feat!

[Falco_Easts]

The Devs changed Armours completely - Splint Mail and Banded Mail got thrown out with the Rubbish!

I would hope that the devs could do something similar for Weapons:

1. Get rid of Throwing Hammer as a Weapon type.
Why? While not optimal it is a blunt thrower for DR. Why get rid of it?

2. Get rid of Hand Axe as a Weapon type.
Why? While not optimal it is a light offhand axe for TWF. Why get rid of it?

3. Get rid of Throwing Dagger as a Weapon type
Why? While not optimal it gives another variety to throwers.

3. Allow Warhammers and Light Hammers to be thrown IF Character has Weapon Focus Thrown.
Only with a penalty to hit. They are not made to be thrown.

4. Change Throwing Axes entirely - Give them New Stats - In between Hand-Axe and BattleAxe.
Thraxes are fine.

5. Allow Dwarves to Throw D-Axes if they have Weapon Focus Thrown.
Only with a big penalty to hit. They are not made to be thrown.

6. Allow Daggers to be thrown if Character has taken Weapon Focus Thrown.
Possibly.

Oh and for goodness sake - Give Dwarven Clerics Warhammer Proficiency as a Free Feat!
/Shrug. Why not.

My thoughts in red.

I would just like to see TWF feats affect throwers. Or a new range of feats that allow dual throwing.

I was actually thinking this morning on how they might impliment spear if they ever do. I thought that when you drag it to hotbar or weapon set you get the choice to drop it as a throwing weapon or melee.

[FranOhmsford]

My thoughts in red.

I would just like to see TWF feats affect throwers. Or a new range of feats that allow dual throwing.

I was actually thinking this morning on how they might impliment spear if they ever do. I thought that when you drag it to hotbar or weapon set you get the choice to drop it as a throwing weapon or melee.

The reasons why those weapons should go were in my post!

Warhammers not made to be thrown? Tell that to R.A.Salvatore, Wulfgar and Aegis-Fang!

D-Axes - These are PURE Fantasy weapons for Dwarves - If the DDO Devs decide that they can be thrown {By Dwarves} then this should be enough.


Again - Our Weapons are Magical - They are not normal Warhammers or D-Axes.
Sun-Blades are B@st@rd Swords masquerading as Short Swords.
Why shouldn't Dwarves make their Magical D-Axes capable of being thrown?

The whole set up of Throwing Weapons in DDO is unwieldy.
Returning Weapons are what people look for - 20 +5 Throwing Hammers just get vendored instantly and without thought.

In PnP we were able to go up to mobs after we'd killed them and get back our Throwing Weapons, Arrows and Bolts {Yes with rules for Arrows and Bolts that allowed for breakages} - We cannot do this in DDO making Returners mandatory.
We also have far too few Returning Weapons of any use.

Making {Magical - At least +1 Enchantment} D-Axes and Warhammers throwable would eliminate the need for some of these.
Making all {Magical - At least +1 Enchantment} Daggers throwable would eliminate the need for more of these.

I'd also suggest changes to the returning status of ALL Arrows and Bolts in game - Something like:

Arrows/Bolts - 25% Returning
Masterwork Arrows/Bolts - 50% Returning
House Deneith Arrows/Bolts - 75% Returning
+4s - 80% Returning
+5s - 85% Returning
Abilities like Frost/True Chaos/Bane etc. would add 2% per Item plus {Top right corner like Cannith Crafting}.

This would give NON-AA Archers and Rogue Mechs without Arti Splash a big boost.

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

I have a thrown weapon build I leveled to 20 some time ago. I used thrown weapons most of the way through. I had a blast. The entire thing started out from scratch back before TR and I rerolled at least 6 times, each time working out ways to get more and more DPS out of it. Ended up with a kensai fighter halfling and using a T2 Greensteel thrown axe. I'd crit for 170 with a range of 17-20 iirc? Sure it wasn't optimal, and compared to the Kensai greatsword I have now, it's dismal.

Eventually, I had to start asking before joining groups to be sure the leader was alright with it. Most didn't care. I had lots of questions from other players and most seemed either neutral or sometimes positive. There were negative people trying to get me down about it for sure, but few and far between. I haven't really pugged with her since the F2P so I can't say how'd the Pugs would react nowadays. I've had lots of ideas to try and revive her (some have been named already in this thread), but haven't because of restricted play time and I'm concentrating on another project of mine.

[Vargouille]

Read by a dev.

[peng]

Read by a dev.

Not showing up in dev tracker for me.

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

Read by a dev.

Thank you for the post. I've looked over some of the options introduced with epic destinies and it's an improvment, but i'm hoping with this enhancement changes and perhaps other changes that you devs will make this toon at least a little more closer in line with other DPS builds.