Is Epic Normal really supposed to be that easy?

[Dunklerlindwurm]

I went into Epic Claw of Vulkoor-Normal to test how the new difficulty will be.

I didnt expect to come very far with my gimp level 21 druid

I played this Druid from scratch so he has no twink gear no raid gear not even tomes..so basicly a very bad charakter.
.
.
.
Then i started the quest and fought Sobrien....i meleed him down with a +5 quarterstaff (dont have anything better) and used 1 Storm of vengeance and had to heal myself only 1 time during that fight....
His damage output is a joke even for a ungeared charakter....his spells werent even noticeable.
At least he had some higher HP...which didnt make him difficult.

Guess dont have to say that the normal fire giants very even easier.

Then i came to the Scorpions....i killed all groups of scorpions with a single firewall...felt like doing shadow crypt...lol
And i dont even have good fire spell items just a 54% potency staff.
Think the scorpions have like 500-750 hp....
Only the scorpion ambushers did some noticeable damage around 30 per hit.

Well i finished this quest killing every single enemy on the way and used only 1 shrine....

Is this really supposed to be that easy??
If a gimp druid can do this that easy..what will a geared charakter do to that quest?

Does this even deserve the name Epic anymore??

[Rizzyn]

Did you get an Epic Chest at the end or nothing at all?

Do you have any Epic Destinies chosen? Did you use any of the Animal Forms or was it straight human throughout? What implements did you have? What enhancements?

Claw of Vulkoor is challenging because one of the core requirements to get an End Chest is to achieve the optional goals. Taken carefully, the mobs can be defeated, particularly if you take out the Healer Scorps first. If you did not get an Epic Chest, I don't think a clean sweep of the dungeon is the way to go with that one. It's always been more of a skill challenger than a conquest one.

[Ew_vastano]

yep well seems with all this "oh epic content is to hard" dumming down

Elite epic is probably gonna be about 50% easier then it is now

[Venny]

With Scaling... it may be more of a challenge with a party rather than solo

[Dunklerlindwurm]

Did you get an Epic Chest at the end or nothing at all?

Do you have any Epic Destinies chosen? Did you use any of the Animal Forms or was it straight human throughout? What implements did you have? What enhancements?

Claw of Vulkoor is challenging because one of the core requirements to get an End Chest is to achieve the optional goals. Taken carefully, the mobs can be defeated, particularly if you take out the Healer Scorps first. If you did not get an Epic Chest, I don't think a clean sweep of the dungeon is the way to go with that one. It's always been more of a skill challenger than a conquest one.

No this has not changed.
Still got the Epic chest you always get at the end (optionals were never required for it)
If you do the optionals on life you get extra normal chests and im sure it will be the same now.

The Epic chest contained 21 fragments. You could still see the token on top of the Chest but it was not clickable.
The Quest gave 18k Xp without any Xp augments.

And no it was not challenging at all.
Didnt use a animal form. All i did was casting firewall 1 time when i had gathered enough scorpions (basicly did it like a heroic quest with gathering enemys and killing them with a single firewall)

I had choosen fury of the wild and i have the hp regeneration from it and +2 Strenght so nothing special really.

My caster item is a (just checked again) a +48 potency implement +9 item
Enhancements are max fire line and life magic line and a littlebit lightning.

[danotmano1998]

With Scaling... it may be more of a challenge with a party rather than solo

This may indeed be the case. I'd love to hear how a full party compares to a solo'er in terms of difficulty.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

With Scaling... it may be more of a challenge with a party rather than solo

And that exactly is the problem

This is already the problem with heroic levels-no need to group..grouping just makes all quests harder.

Now we have the same with epics.

Honestly even Normal Sins of attrition is harder than Epic claw of vulkoor-normal

[donblas]

And that exactly is the problem

This is already the problem with heroic levels-no need to group..grouping just makes all quests harder.

Now we have the same with epics.

Honestly even Normal Sins of attrition is harder than Epic claw of vulkoor-normal

I do a lot of quests solo or duo and I really think that grouping should be encouraged more. Maybe change the scaling so that it's a little more difficult to short man quests. This is D&D online!

[Thrudh]

Don't think of it as "epic" normal... Think of it as a level 20 quest on normal. Which are usually pretty easy for a good player.

[redspecter23]

I tried an epic normal Von 1 yesterday just to test it out. I was quite happy defensively with my level 20 monk until I realized that the mobs were hitting me quite a bit, but for practically nothing. I went to the first red named minotaur. The one that typically smokes me in 4 hits or less on live and just sat there for a minute. He got plenty of hits in, all for practically nothing. I'm still not entirely sure if I like that or not. It trivializes defense after it's been nerfed making me wonder why I even try at all for AC for epic normal. I could run around with a crafted holy/vampirism weapon and stay at full health the whole time.

[sirgog]

Don't think of it as "epic" normal... Think of it as a level 20 quest on normal. Which are usually pretty easy for a good player.

This.

Trust me, epic elite is nasty. I've completed epic elite Claw and it was quite a bit tougher than live epic Claw (although just in the 'mobs have higher stats' way rather than a 'you need to use more tricks and skills' way.

[Eladiun]

Dungeon scaling is one of the worst things ever introduced to this game.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

This.

Trust me, epic elite is nasty. I've completed epic elite Claw and it was quite a bit tougher than live epic Claw (although just in the 'mobs have higher stats' way rather than a 'you need to use more tricks and skills' way.

Yea i believe that...i just didnt expect a level 21 quest on normal to be way easier than a level 19 quest like sins of attrition on normal.
It is even easier then inspired quarter on normal..and you know how easy that is :)

[FranOhmsford]

I didn't read any replies so sorry if this has been addressed already BUT:

IT MAY BE EASY TO YOU - It's not easy for everyone.

Pls STOP trying to get the devs to make everything harder.

BTW Epic Hard is s'posed to be equal to Epic {Original} NOT Epic Normal.

[KyrzaBladedancer]

I didn't read any replies so sorry if this has been addressed already BUT:

IT MAY BE EASY TO YOU - It's not easy for everyone.

Pls STOP trying to get the devs to make everything harder.

BTW Epic Hard is s'posed to be equal to Epic {Original} NOT Epic Normal.

When, If it let me, I could walk into Von1 on Epic normal with my level 10 sorc or even a 10 melee and beat the quest with a single stack of cure serious pots, it's not hard enough. It is supposed to be EPIC, not, lets go to the bathroom with 5 ogres beating on me and come back and kill them all.

[MadFloyd]

Epic no longer has anything to do with difficulty. Elite is the toughest difficulty.

Epic simply means level 20+.

Thus, Epic Normal is really just Normal.

That said, if Normal may be to easy - after all this is beta and we're still balancing.

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.

Epic Elite should be very difficult and the feedback we are getting it that it is.

[MadFloyd]

When, If it let me, I could walk into Von1 on Epic normal with my level 10 sorc or even a 10 melee and beat the quest with a single stack of cure serious pots, it's not hard enough. It is supposed to be EPIC, not, lets go to the bathroom with 5 ogres beating on me and come back and kill them all.

Could you do the same on a Heroic Normal 19 quest?

[SirShen]

I didn't read any replies so sorry if this has been addressed already BUT:

IT MAY BE EASY TO YOU - It's not easy for everyone.

Pls STOP trying to get the devs to make everything harder.

BTW Epic Hard is s'posed to be equal to Epic {Original} NOT Epic Normal.

This above i had problem soloing the first epic (normal) quest on normal with my TR.

[Dolphious]

Don't think of it as "epic" normal... Think of it as a level 20 quest on normal. Which are usually pretty easy for a good player.

I think the mobs are about as tough as I would expect from a "level 20 quest on normal" but because of the design of many/most of the epic quests, it's actually a lot easier. E.g. if you replaced all the mobs in snitch (one that I did) with orthons from sins of attrition normal, it would probably be even easier than it is now, but overall the quest is probably even easier than normal sins because of the relatively small number of mobs you fight at a time, and the comparative plethora of rest shrines.

That might not be a terrible thing, nothing wrong with having some quick and easy quests "around town" to solo when you don't have a lot of time... but it's quite the shift from they way things are on live to the point of being a bit jarring.

[Dolphious]

I went into Epic Claw of Vulkoor-Normal to test how the new difficulty will be.

I didnt expect to come very far with my gimp level 21 druid

I played this Druid from scratch so he has no twink gear no raid gear not even tomes..so basicly a very bad charakter.
.
.
.
Then i started the quest and fought Sobrien....i meleed him down with a +5 quarterstaff (dont have anything better) and used 1 Storm of vengeance and had to heal myself only 1 time during that fight....
His damage output is a joke even for a ungeared charakter....his spells werent even noticeable.
At least he had some higher HP...which didnt make him difficult.
That guy's damage was always kind of a joke, that's why people would use him as a dps gauge. I killed him on my first freshly capped 20 (because I heard it was a good one to solo, it took forever though) and then got pounded by the giants behind the barrier. It's definitely not a real test of what epic orange names will be like.



Then i came to the Scorpions....i killed all groups of scorpions with a single firewall...felt like doing shadow crypt...lol
And i dont even have good fire spell items just a 54% potency staff.
Think the scorpions have like 500-750 hp....
Only the scorpion ambushers did some noticeable damage around 30 per hit.
Eh, that is pretty low HP and damage, though firewalling those scorps is a solid tactic, so it's not that surprising that they went down easily. And again, even on live those scorps weren't very dangerous (though they had a lot more HP), that's one of the quests I would volunteer to solo heal on my bard without even checking out the melees.

[Ziindarax]

Epic no longer has anything to do with difficulty. Elite is the toughest difficulty.

Epic simply means level 20+.

Thus, Epic Normal is really just Normal.

That said, if Normal may be to easy - after all this is beta and we're still balancing.

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.

Epic Elite should be very difficult and the feedback we are getting it that it is.

Epic Normal is appropriately challenging for it's category, what the OP is actually reporting is probably a scaling bug. I ran several Demonweb quests on Epic Normal, and the mobs were often hitting me for 50-70 points of damage per hit; Epic Normal is probably broken in Eberron, and is working like Heroic Normal instead of the intended difficulty, though I have yet to test this (also, it seems I can never repeat the U13 quests ever again on Lama except for Spinner of Shadows).

It may be worth checking all of the difficulty settings in Eberron Epics to ensure that nothing is behaving like regular-level quests.

[Phidius]

Epic no longer has anything to do with difficulty. Elite is the toughest difficulty.

Epic simply means level 20+.

...

Have you considered using a different word than Epic... like say, Twenty?

The reason I ask is that many people think of Epic as "Truly Awesome Battle That Is Worthy Of Being Sung In A Bar For Centuries To Come"... you can say it's not about difficulty 'till you are blue in the face, and they simply won't hear you.

[KyrzaBladedancer]

Could you do the same on a Heroic Normal 19 quest?

I believed that I wouldn't be able to, but just for thoroughness's sake I took the same character with no ship buffs into Weapon Shipment normal solo (on Live) and let the first set of Mobs beat on me. I didn't realize just how much scaling there was. I always knew it was a lot, but I never took more than 10 points of damage in a single attack and died in 5-10 hits. The only reason they would be more dangerous than say the Trolls or Ogres in Von1 Epic Normal (on Beta) is that they attack roughly twice as fast and can close distances instantly.

IMHO Epic Normal (at least Von 1) scales WAY too much. When I could take a fresh level 20 with **** for gear, and do it solo, I think there is something wrong. That being said I'm almost definitely in the minority of player skill levels. I'll check a few of the more commonly run Epics in Eberron to get a more accurate picture, but I still stand by my statement.

I think Epic Levels should encourage grouping and scaling should be toned way down or even turn off across the board. Being able to solo a level 20, 21, 22 quest should be an achievement like it used to be, not the norm. I also agree perhaps you should find a different name to call Epic Level quests, sure in a few months we'll be used to it, but we will forever see Epics as what we currently have on Live.

P.S. Thanks for letting me poke you!

[sweez]

Some context:

Jyrja dies, a lot, in level appropriate quests. Allowing him to take a level 10 toon into 20+ quests would make people who play with him very very entertained. Of course now he'll just blame scaling :rolleyes:

Still, make it so!

[FranOhmsford]

When, If it let me, I could walk into Von1 on Epic normal with my level 10 sorc or even a 10 melee and beat the quest with a single stack of cure serious pots, it's not hard enough. It is supposed to be EPIC, not, lets go to the bathroom with 5 ogres beating on me and come back and kill them all.

VoN 1 is a Lvl 8 quest, 10 on Elite that really doesn't translate to Epic - It's known as one of the easiest Epics for a reason.
I believe Only E-Snitch and E-BoB are considered to be easier by those in the know.

These Epics are routinely soloed on Live by enough players that it's not even considered an achievement to do so.

Some Players Solo E-CoF for goodness sake.


And I'm sorry BUT none of my level 10s would last more than 10 seconds {in the Arena} if I attempted to Solo ELITE VoN 1 - Are you saying EPIC VoN 1 is easier than Elite?

[terrenceknight1]

I've been running a few different Epic-Normal quests on my 20 Epic 3 Monk with Albus as my hireling and there are times where my hireling will die because he won't heal himself while taking damage in melee. or getting 2-3 shot by Drow spell-casters in EVon 3. So from my own personal experience Epic normal is a fairly comfortable difficulty for someone not decked out in raid gear and only a couple challenge items.

I will say its nice to be able to solo these quests on Epic Normal instead of needing to group up with anyone so I can do what I want on my own time, it'll add a great deal more playability for me.

Please leave Epic normal alone and buff up Epic hard/elite for people who enjoy a challenge.

[Shade]

One solution to this could to be make scaling MUCH less intense for epic modes:

Currently, you get mobs toned down to around 30-40% power while solo, depending on your class.

Could change it to:
Solo: 80%
2 man: 90%
3 or more: 100%
HARDCAP at 100%.

Unlike the current system which is:
Solo: 30%
2man: 50%
3man: 75%
4man: 100%
5man: 110%
6man: 120%

Which results in full groups facing monsters with stats (mainly hitpoints and damage output) four 4 times what solo'ers face.. But having more players doesnt make the players themselves four times tougher, so it actually makes it HARDER to group, then to solo.

[KyrzaBladedancer]

So did a few more Epics and even looked at the Damage in Heroic Elite, and I feel I can say with some confidence that Scaling, at least in some quests, Is totally borked. Ran a Small Problem and had a guildie hop in near the end to add to scaling and while the Orange Nameds got an appreciable increase in their total HP numbers, about 50%, Damage output remained nearly exactly the same. As a side note and since I'm not entirely sure the Bug Report went through, The final Fight didn't spawn and we didn't get an Epic Chest.
http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff449/Nimblefoot207/th_ScreenShot00056.jpg (http://s1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff449/Nimblefoot207/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00056.jpg)

Also looked at Bargain of Blood, as currently even on Normal or Hard at level you tend to take a massive amount of damage, scaling is hugely effective in there. This on is Epic Normal solo, They did between 5 and 14 points of damage a shot and the archers hit up to 17+elemental effects
http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff449/Nimblefoot207/th_ScreenShot00060.jpg (http://s1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff449/Nimblefoot207/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00060.jpg)
and this is Epic Normal with a Second person, damage increase seems about right, around 50% to double Damage as solo, about 8-19 points of damage with archers doing about 20 points+ effects,
http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff449/Nimblefoot207/th_ScreenShot00061.jpg (http://s1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff449/Nimblefoot207/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00061.jpg)

And just for some comparison, Heroic elite Solo, which should have almost no scaling, therefore doing about the same as Epic normal with 2 guys, was doing a wopping 3 points of damage maximum per hit, with an 80% of the hits doing 1 point of damage.
http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff449/Nimblefoot207/th_ScreenShot00058.jpg (http://s1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff449/Nimblefoot207/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00058.jpg)


Now I'm sure someone with more experience testing scaling will tell me whether this is in fact the correct numbers I should be seeing in a Level 7 Elite quest, that has always done an incredible amount of Melee damage. As it stands I think maybe someone should take a look into how scaling in Epic quests is effecting their Heroic counterparts as it seems there is some kind of an issue. Either that or I'm just embarrassing myself, which happens, a lot.

[sirgog]

So did a few more Epics and even looked at the Damage in Heroic Elite, and I feel I can say with some confidence that Scaling, at least in some quests, Is totally borked. Ran a Small Problem and had a guildie hop in near the end to add to scaling and while the Orange Nameds got an appreciable increase in their total HP numbers, about 50%, Damage output remained nearly exactly the same. As a side note and since I'm not entirely sure the Bug Report went through, The final Fight didn't spawn and we didn't get an Epic Chest.
http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff449/Nimblefoot207/th_ScreenShot00056.jpg (http://s1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff449/Nimblefoot207/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00056.jpg)

Also looked at Bargain of Blood, as currently even on Normal or Hard at level you tend to take a massive amount of damage, scaling is hugely effective in there. This on is Epic Normal solo, They did between 5 and 14 points of damage a shot and the archers hit up to 17+elemental effects
http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff449/Nimblefoot207/th_ScreenShot00060.jpg (http://s1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff449/Nimblefoot207/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00060.jpg)
and this is Epic Normal with a Second person, damage increase seems about right, around 50% to double Damage as solo, about 8-19 points of damage with archers doing about 20 points+ effects,
http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff449/Nimblefoot207/th_ScreenShot00061.jpg (http://s1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff449/Nimblefoot207/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00061.jpg)

And just for some comparison, Heroic elite Solo, which should have almost no scaling, therefore doing about the same as Epic normal with 2 guys, was doing a wopping 3 points of damage maximum per hit, with an 80% of the hits doing 1 point of damage.
http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff449/Nimblefoot207/th_ScreenShot00058.jpg (http://s1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff449/Nimblefoot207/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00058.jpg)


Now I'm sure someone with more experience testing scaling will tell me whether this is in fact the correct numbers I should be seeing in a Level 7 Elite quest, that has always done an incredible amount of Melee damage. As it stands I think maybe someone should take a look into how scaling in Epic quests is effecting their Heroic counterparts as it seems there is some kind of an issue. Either that or I'm just embarrassing myself, which happens, a lot.


Scaling on Live does not change at all from Normal to Elite despite Dev comments that this isn't intended.

A solo at-level Wizard takes about 52% incoming damage in most scaling-impacted content (about 72% when duo and about 108-120% with 6, these figures vary though as some classes contribute more or less scaling). This also includes traps (very noticeable in elite Chains of Flame and elite Crucible, both of which are quite difficult with a full group due to traps).

The way epic normal works, however, makes the spellcasting bosses much more dangerous than the melee monsters.

[McFlay]

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.


Then you are probably going to have to check out 99% of the games content. Scaling pretty much makes the game a ridiculous joke. Before scaling I always had the mentality that someone is better then nobody, but with scaling I either just solo everything or play with my cousin, in which case elite streaking everything in our current lives thus far has been a complete joke.

The ones where we have had the most trouble are the quests we actually bother getting a full party for and get stuck with a couple pugs that are either newish or just awful players.

Its just totally lame. You don't even need any trap skills or evasion if you like to solo anymore. You just count on scaling to make most traps hit you for very unthreatening amounts of damage. Most mobs hardly even scratch you while soloing, and they die with very little effort.

Please fix the game by removing scaling. Soloing before scaling was never the most easy way to finish anything, or the most efficient. Soloing prior to scaling was more something to do just to say HAH! I soloed that ****. I know people complained about not being able to fill parties for groups, but removing any reason you have to fill a group for most content now doesn't make it any easier for those same people to fill parties. Its just a stupid concept any way you think about it. An ogres an ogre...what are they nice ogres now and decide to set weaker traps, hit me for less, and die more easily if I'm nice enough to go fight them alone instead of bringing some friends?

[slimkj]

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.
I think often people confuse "I can do this alone" with "(too) easy". That is to say, you can put in roughly the same skill/effort to either;

contribute some of the oomph needed to kill the (HP/quantity inflated) mobs whilst in a full party, or
kill them yourself when solo.

It seems to me that neither of these require any significant difference in skill or time, except that perhaps whilst solo you may have to manage a greater number of roles. That is, I don't feel I have to work harder in a full group, despite people's reservations about the changes in dungeons/mechanics that are applied when in smaller parties.

[McFlay]

Why even bother grouping if you are putting the same effort in alone or with a group?

You waste time by actually waiting for group members, then at that point, you run the risk of crappy group members that increase scaling and really don't contribute anything.

Grouping is simply more detrimental then soloing for most content. If you take away scaling, like the game used to be, sure, you might be able to do something on solo, but its easier/faster with a group. Its actually worth the time to form a party, and you never have to worry about getting a player who slows you down due to increased scaling and contributes very little.

[Auran82]

Epic no longer has anything to do with difficulty. Elite is the toughest difficulty.

Epic simply means level 20+.

Thus, Epic Normal is really just Normal.

That said, if Normal may be to easy - after all this is beta and we're still balancing.

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.

Epic Elite should be very difficult and the feedback we are getting it that it is.

I have to ask, do you have regular scheduled sack beatings for the person who originally decided to give current 'Epic' its name?

People need to understand, 'Epic' no longer means what it used to, 'Epic mode' simply means 'scaled to level 20+ or level 20+ quests' instead of 'extreme challenge' or whatever it used to say.

[My2Cents]

I think an experienced player with any kind of gear should be able to have the same chance of soloing 32 normal as they do now a 19 or 20 normal.

Trust me, first life with so-so gear, it isn't a cakewalk for those who have only run a quest a few times.

Why the anti-solo campaign?

[Shade]

I have to ask, do you have regular scheduled sack beatings for the person who originally decided to give current 'Epic' its name?

People need to understand, 'Epic' no longer means what it used to, 'Epic mode' simply means 'scaled to level 20+ or level 20+ quests' instead of 'extreme challenge' or whatever it used to say.

To add extra confusion. "Extreme challenge dungeons" still exist. You can only view the warning if you have hints enabled tho is one issue with that.

Epics on live are currently described as:
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/8360/epicm.jpg

[Scraap]

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.


I'm confused. If that's a core principle, and not a general rule of thumb, why do we see more mobs that hit harder explicitly based on party size in weapons shipment and challenges for not one, but two mechanisms that discourage bringing along a buddy unless they're that much better?

Note it's also another reason why you shouldn't put nearly so much stock as you seem to from the latest designs, in solo accomplishments. It really is that much easier. Particularly for classes that use buffs, since that's up to 1/6th of a smaller portion of their SP off the top before they use it all on offense and self healing. (Not to mention the whole torc thing, since agro is split less, so 5 times the incoming rate of return for quite a bit less than 5 times the incoming damage.)

[Claransa]

I went into Epic Claw of Vulkoor-Normal to test how the new difficulty will be.

So now try it on Epic Hard and get back to us on your experience with that.

Multiple tiers of Epic difficulty were not provided to make the game harder and harder still. They were provided to balance the current Epic difficulty for people who like me, never ran Epics on live because the difficulty was too hard and I prefer to Solo (whether anyone likes it or not)

Epic hard is suppose to be what Epic is on live now, that was put out by a Dev. I suggest that you compare your previous experience with Epic difficulty to Epic Hard not Epic Normal.

[Jasparion]

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.

You should rephrase this to: it should never be easier to solo than a full party of equally skilled players.

Its often FAR easier to solo something than PuG with 5 clueless people.

Rephrased I would agree. But tell me if you have tried Weapons Shipment on Elite solo and with a group of 6.

[mystafyi]

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.

It has been easier to solo since dungeon scaling was introduced into the game. Every quest in the game is 'easier' solo then with more people. Some quests are faster with more players though. :)

[dubyprime]

[U]

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.



Cannith Challenges.

There are places where 2 or 3 manning may be better than 6 man, but as far as ingredients per minute go I find it faster to solo. Where 6staring is concerned this soloing is more difficult, but 6staring doesn't always produce more ingredients.

The obvious solution would be to increase the score bonus for various star objectives. You would also need to insure that certain objectives trigger the score bonus before the quest ends and give rewards(i.e. keep kobolds alive/ buy less than X time).

Thanks for listening. Sorry to be off topic.

[Isolani]

Why even bother grouping if you are putting the same effort in alone or with a group?

You waste time by actually waiting for group members, then at that point, you run the risk of crappy group members that increase scaling and really don't contribute anything.

Grouping is simply more detrimental then soloing for most content. If you take away scaling, like the game used to be, sure, you might be able to do something on solo, but its easier/faster with a group. Its actually worth the time to form a party, and you never have to worry about getting a player who slows you down due to increased scaling and contributes very little.

It's still easier and faster with a group unless you are just taking a bunch of dead weight players with you. Having 3 people in a quest doesn't give the mobs triple hit points and triple damage compared to soloing. Look at some of the insanely fast completion times people can get with a group of 3 or 4 people that know what they are doing...it isn't even physically possible for 1 person to do the quests that fast.

If you are talking about pugging quests, well, pugging has sucked in every MMO ever made and probably will take longer than just soloing which is why a lot of people solo if none of their friends are online.

[pHo3nix]

It's still easier and faster with a group unless you are just taking a bunch of dead weight players with you. Having 3 people in a quest doesn't give the mobs triple hit points and triple damage compared to soloing. Look at some of the insanely fast completion times people can get with a group of 3 or 4 people that know what they are doing...it isn't even physically possible for 1 person to do the quests that fast.

If you are talking about pugging quests, well, pugging has sucked in every MMO ever made and probably will take longer than just soloing which is why a lot of people solo if none of their friends are online.

When people refers to grouping they usually refers to random pugs, with high probability of dead weights, not to groups of friends/guildies with great knowledge of the game and great gear ;)

[knockcocker]

It's still easier and faster with a group unless you are just taking a bunch of dead weight players with you. Having 3 people in a quest doesn't give the mobs triple hit points and triple damage compared to soloing. Look at some of the insanely fast completion times people can get with a group of 3 or 4 people that know what they are doing...it isn't even physically possible for 1 person to do the quests that fast.

If you are talking about pugging quests, well, pugging has sucked in every MMO ever made and probably will take longer than just soloing which is why a lot of people solo if none of their friends are online.


This.

You can't punitively force people to group who are not inclined to do so.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

One solution to this could to be make scaling MUCH less intense for epic modes:

Currently, you get mobs toned down to around 30-40% power while solo, depending on your class.

Could change it to:
Solo: 80%
2 man: 90%
3 or more: 100%
HARDCAP at 100%.

Unlike the current system which is:
Solo: 30%
2man: 50%
3man: 75%
4man: 100%
5man: 110%
6man: 120%

Which results in full groups facing monsters with stats (mainly hitpoints and damage output) four 4 times what solo'ers face.. But having more players doesnt make the players themselves four times tougher, so it actually makes it HARDER to group, then to solo.

I just wanted to post something similar.

But i can just quote Shade now.

This would be the best solution for the whole Scaling problem.

Soloers would still have an easier quest but groups would not be punished as much as they are now.

[Ranncore]

Pretty disappointing. Yes, epic quests are hard, and a very small amount of skilled players run them. I like that. After update, anyone with auction house gear can do epics. It really shouldn't be called epic.

And yes, basically every quest in the game is easier to solo than to go with a party. I hardly ever put up an LFM til I want to do an epic. I guess I won't have to do that anymore after the update. The dev's have a serious misunderstanding of fundamental game mechanics if they haven't realized that. Do you guys even playtest some of this stuff anymore? (I'm thinking - Undermine)

Seems like DDO just keeps getting easier and easier. It's rated 12 and up, I guess. Gotta cater to the whole crowd.

[slimkj]

Why even bother grouping if you are putting the same effort in alone or with a group?
For the same reasons people have socialised since we stood upright.

[slimkj]

why do we see more mobs that hit harder explicitly based on party size
Because there are fewer of you hitting back.

[knockcocker]

I just wanted to post something similar.

But i can just quote Shade now.

This would be the best solution for the whole Scaling problem.

Soloers would still have an easier quest but groups would not be punished as much as they are now.

Why are groups punished? It's still *always* easier in a group unless someone is either griefing or completely
incompetent.

The fallacy is that making it too hard to solo will then result in grouping. It results in people leaving, not grouping.
Add incentives to grouping e.g. +10% for members 5 and 6 etc. and make the death penalty individual rather
than group based.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

Why are groups punished? It's still *always* easier in a group unless someone is either griefing or completely
incompetent.

The fallacy is that making it too hard to solo will then result in grouping. It results in people leaving, not grouping.
Add incentives to grouping e.g. +10% for members 5 and 6 etc. and make the death penalty individual rather
than group based.

that is just not true

Lets take a typical quest where you see how bad scaling is right now-sins of attrition.

If i go in there solo i can basicly dance inside 20 enemys and they will die from 1x acid rain.

If i go in there with 6 people this same 20 enemys will kill the 6 people in seconds(if they dont watch their health carefully and have self healing available)you have to be careful to not agro too many enemys at once.

So how did grouping make that easier?


And by the way making things too easy will also result in people leaving.

If people finish content too quickly,getting all items too fast and get bored they will leave too.

[sweez]

Lets take a typical quest where you see how bad scaling is right now-sins of attrition.

If i go in there solo i can basicly dance inside 20 enemys and they will die from 1x acid rain.

If i go in there with 6 people this same 20 enemys will kill the 6 people in seconds(if they dont watch their health carefully and have self healing available)you have to be careful to not agro too many enemys at once.


Sins is a horrible example because even with full scaling it's still easier to solo it on a bluebar, and leave other people at entrance lol. I love the atmosphere of the quest (grew up on Diablo, sue me), but claustrophobic corridors + cleaving mobs = bad design to encourage grouping.

[Gkar]

It has been easier to solo since dungeon scaling was introduced into the game. Every quest in the game is 'easier' solo then with more people. Some quests are faster with more players though. :)

Agreed. That seems to be ALMOST universally the case. I group for company, not for help.

[nibel]

One solution to this could to be make scaling MUCH less intense for epic modes:

Currently, you get mobs toned down to around 30-40% power while solo, depending on your class.

Could change it to:
Solo: 80%
2 man: 90%
3 or more: 100%
HARDCAP at 100%.

Unlike the current system which is:
Solo: 30%
2man: 50%
3man: 75%
4man: 100%
5man: 110%
6man: 120%

Which results in full groups facing monsters with stats (mainly hitpoints and damage output) four 4 times what solo'ers face.. But having more players doesnt make the players themselves four times tougher, so it actually makes it HARDER to group, then to solo.

I would be more lenient in casual and normal content. Myself, I think casual SHOULD be set to specifically favor soloists, and normal be set for duo to 4-people, Hard to 4 to 6 people, and elite never scales at all (so, aimed for full party).

Solo/Casual: 25% scaling per person

Solo: 50%
Duo: 75% (including non-goldseal hireling)
Trio+: 100% (Hardcap)

Normal: 15% scaling per person

Solo or duo: 70%
Trio: 85%
Quartet +: 100% (Hardcap)

Hard: 5% scaling per person

Solo or Duo: 80%
Trio: 85%
Quartet: 90%
Quintet: 95%
Full party: 100% (Hardcap)

Elite: No scaling

Any composition: 100%

This way, soloing is better fit to casual and normal (including tinkering around with the few quests that requires a party for lever pulling and such to be soloable on casual without any workarounds). Hard is doable to solo, but not as easy as today, and Elite solo is a true achievment.

[Isolani]

Sins is a horrible example because even with full scaling it's still easier to solo it on a bluebar, and leave other people at entrance lol. I love the atmosphere of the quest (grew up on Diablo, sue me), but claustrophobic corridors + cleaving mobs = bad design to encourage grouping.

Yeah, sins is a pretty poor example of "typical" quest, it's ridiculously melee unfriendly. Any combination of 6 arcanes/divines would destroy a hallway full of mobs in a couple seconds.

[Auran82]

Pretty disappointing. Yes, epic quests are hard, and a very small amount of skilled players run them. I like that. After update, anyone with auction house gear can do epics. It really shouldn't be called epic.

And yes, basically every quest in the game is easier to solo than to go with a party. I hardly ever put up an LFM til I want to do an epic. I guess I won't have to do that anymore after the update. The dev's have a serious misunderstanding of fundamental game mechanics if they haven't realized that. Do you guys even playtest some of this stuff anymore? (I'm thinking - Undermine)

Seems like DDO just keeps getting easier and easier. It's rated 12 and up, I guess. Gotta cater to the whole crowd.

Epic by its very pen and paper definition is levelling past 20. What the expansion is doing is exactly that.

Unfortunately, when the game went free to play, someone had a great idea to scale a bunch of (mainly old) quests to 20 in order to give those with capped characters something to do to keep them around. Instead of actually calling this mode "Extreme challenge" or whatever, they decided to call it Epic, I seriously doubt I wasn't the only person who thought and said at the time "What happens if they ever increase the level cap past 20?" and here we are. The term 'Epic' has been ingrained into us to mean something else and now they are trying to use the same term to mean something different (though to be honest, Epic *should* mean, post 20 questing, not the thing we have been using as endgame for the past few years).

What we need to accept now, is that 'epic mode' is no longer just to challenge the Shade's of the game, that now rests with Epic Elite, Epic Normal is simply a normal difficulty quest greater than level 20. 18 Normal -> 19 Normal in theory should have a similar increase in difficulty as 19 Normal -> 20 Epic Normal

[dubyprime]

Hard capping scaling at 3 or 4 person party is a great idea. Other MMOs have done this in order to encourage larger groups.

I'm not sure I agree with the various proposed scales from 1 to 3 party members, but I do agree there should be a cap.

Also you should consider XP bonuses for larger groups.


Sins is a great example. It is relatively common for a guildy to solo sins then invite people for the chests.
Weapons shipment too. There are quite often Weapons shipment elite, come open the chests I just soloed it LFMs.

[dubyprime]

Could you do the same on a Heroic Normal 19 quest?

Comparing Epic Normal to normal IQ, the difficulty seems fairly similar to me. The Hobgoblins in Von1 are easier to kill because of their lack of abilities and immunities. That is a product of the old epic system having been laid over older quests. I will fiddle around with Epic Von3 or something when I get a chance.

It is a hard shift to get used to, epic just means CR 20 quest.

[Galeria]

Yes, epic quests are hard, and a very small amount of skilled players run them. I like that.

Yep, makes you one of the cool kids. Too bad they need everyone else to keep paying to play...

[A_J_Rimmer_SSC]

I wanted to try out an Epic Normal quest in Stormreach to see how the mechanics are working on older content. So I took my rogue (lv 20 assassin) into The Tide Turns on Epic Normal to see how it would go.

My party:
Me - rogue 20
My panther - fighter 20
Klin Stegen - Cleric 19
Klin's Hezrou pet

If I try this on the live version's Epic, I'm dead in the first room. So I expect that will still be the case on Epic Hard and up. But on Epic Normal, the difficulty felt comparable, but maybe a bit easier than most level 19/20 quests on Normal. The only time I was really nervous during combat was when I got a green alert from a bunch of rats in the tight corridors just after the armory, where my panther couldn't get ahead of me to pull aggro. It wasn't a TOTAL cakewalk, but between the panther and the hezrou, I didn't have a hard time keeping aggro off myself, and Klin didn't have much trouble keeping us healed. He also had plenty of mana left, and didn't really need the shrines. Nobody died on the whole trip up the tower. I didn't ever get spotted by anything I was trying to sneak past, and I was able to do all the traps. My hide and move silently are 69 and 67, and my disable device is 50, for reference.

THEN WE GOT TO THE END.

I'm pretty sure the end boss is bugged or just isn't scaling. I don't think my poor rogue has ever been so impotent. He does 17D6+12 damage PER SWING just in sneak attack bonuses whenever he doesn't have aggro, and he was basically doing NOTHING to Ahraatz-Ri. My "party" wiped, so I ate a cake to res myself, brought everyone else up with scrolls, and came back with two more Gold Seal healers (store was buggy so I couldn't get a fighter). We still never got Ahraatz-Ri's health bar to even MOVE, even with myself, the cat, and the hezrou swatting at him for several minutes. I eventually just released.

So my conclusion on Epic Normal, at least on The Tide Turns:

The overall difficulty may be a little on the easy side, especially since there's a "casual" mode under it. But maybe not. I doubt a solo caster with a hireling would have much trouble with the combat, but an aggro-pulling melee might have a harder time. An aggro-shedding rogue would be dead FAST in the bigger fights without someone to keep the attention off them, but that's to be expected. The boss, however, needs some attention because that fight is grossly disproportionate to the rest of the quest.

[knockcocker]

that is just not true

Lets take a typical quest where you see how bad scaling is right now-sins of attrition.

If i go in there solo i can basicly dance inside 20 enemys and they will die from 1x acid rain.

If i go in there with 6 people this same 20 enemys will kill the 6 people in seconds(if they dont watch their health carefully and have self healing available)you have to be careful to not agro too many enemys at once.

So how did grouping make that easier?


And by the way making things too easy will also result in people leaving.

If people finish content too quickly,getting all items too fast and get bored they will leave too.

Not really 'typical' IMO. Anyway, all you're saying is that the same tactics don't work as well (anecdotally as well
I might add). Scaling is not 1/6th i.e. it's not linear.

[black_pearl2001]

I tested Epic Normal BoB to farm for a Fang scroll (got a Jidz instead). Took my epicly geared L25 Rogue (LD T2 ED), panther, Klin.

I probably could have completed without the hires and healing myself with scrolls.

I'm still newish to the game and haven't played every quest so often that I know them all inside out. Grouping usually means being dragged through a zerg fest so I don't really learn anything about the quest or story. I really enjoyed being able to explore the quest at my own pace and actually "playing" the game rather than just "grinding" for gear. For me, normal is the opportunity to look around, see the cool graphics, find the way to complete the quest and do the optionals. I really like that I can do that on my own (with the help of a hire sometimes). Once I have experienced the "normal" difficulty and figured everything out to my satisfaction, I can increase the difficulty to give myself a challenge if I wish.

Gear grinding and playing the max/min game are not the only ways to play this game. I like scaling. I like soloing to learn the quests. Sometimes I like grouping. I don't want to be forced to group unless I play an uber caster etc. I hate playing casters. I don't want to be loot penalised if I can only solo on casual difficulty.

Normal should be soloable by a decent player. Casual should be for newbies/noobs who are seriously under-geared or really still learning play skills. Hard should be challenging and Elite should be really challenging.

Part of my fun comes from exploring with a little internal role play. Enemies are a distraction/obstacle to my journey and not the purpose of it. I don't want to be struggling not to die constantly while exploring. Enemies are not the only challenges in quest for a new or less experienced player. How to solve/complete the quest without someone else telling you or showing you everything is fun too.

[Shmuel]

Please fix the game by removing scaling. Soloing before scaling was never the most easy way to finish anything, or the most efficient. Soloing prior to scaling was more something to do just to say HAH! I soloed that ****. I know people complained about not being able to fill parties for groups, but removing any reason you have to fill a group for most content now doesn't make it any easier for those same people to fill parties. Its just a stupid concept any way you think about it. An ogres an ogre...what are they nice ogres now and decide to set weaker traps, hit me for less, and die more easily if I'm nice enough to go fight them alone instead of bringing some friends?

I have to agree here

[DarkForte]

The scaling on epic normal feels... too non-epic. I'd vote for removing it on epic levels (and epic levels alone: removal of scaling on heroic levels has too many implications to the many soloing TRs out there). Say whatever you will about epic == over 20, but everyone's gut feeling is, I believe, similar to mine: you have to be awesome to solo an EPIC quest.

[knockcocker]

The scaling on epic normal feels... too non-epic. I'd vote for removing it on epic levels (and epic levels alone: removal of scaling on heroic levels has too many implications to the many soloing TRs out there). Say whatever you will about epic == over 20, but everyone's gut feeling is, I believe, similar to mine: you have to be awesome to solo an EPIC quest.

No, the definition of Epic has changed regardless of how you feel about it.

[Scraap]

The scaling on epic normal feels... too non-epic. I'd vote for removing it on epic levels (and epic levels alone: removal of scaling on heroic levels has too many implications to the many soloing TRs out there). Say whatever you will about epic == over 20, but everyone's gut feeling is, I believe, similar to mine: you have to be awesome to solo an EPIC quest.

Eh, I'd go for lowering the scaling degree across the board, but I'm an ebil elitist, apparently.

[Claver]

Part of my fun comes from exploring with a little internal role play. Enemies are a distraction/obstacle to my journey and not the purpose of it. I don't want to be struggling not to die constantly while exploring. Enemies are not the only challenges in quest for a new or less experienced player. How to solve/complete the quest without someone else telling you or showing you everything is fun too.

Well said, thank you for adding another perspective. I solo quests for the same reasons - to smell the roses, read the npc dialogue and learn at my own pace.

I would move to another game if that option wasn't available.

I would lobby for a harder HARD

and a more Elite ELITE

but what you've written about normal makes sense to me.

[KyrzaBladedancer]

Well said, thank you for adding another perspective. I solo quests for the same reasons - to smell the roses, read the npc dialogue and learn at my own pace.

I would move to another game if that option wasn't available.

I would lobby for a harder HARD

and a more Elite ELITE

but what you've written about normal makes sense to me.

While not directly at you, Then what is casual for? why do we have it? To me, that is what Casual is for, learning the quest in an environment that is not dangerous. Normal is just that a Normal difficulty for a small to medium group looking for something easy but not walking in the park easy. As it stands now, Norm is, IMHO, walk in the park easy. The only reason I would ever die as it stands right now in a Normal Epic quest is if I were to go afk.

[MadFloyd]

While not directly at you, Then what is casual for? why do we have it? To me, that is what Casual is for, learning the quest in an environment that is not dangerous. Normal is just that a Normal difficulty for a small to medium group looking for something easy but not walking in the park easy. As it stands now, Norm is, IMHO, walk in the park easy. The only reason I would ever die as it stands right now in a Normal Epic quest is if I were to go afk.

Casual is a backup difficulty in case someone finds Normal too difficult.

From what I've played of the new content, I haven't found Normal to be a cakewalk by any stretch.

Elite is having its difficulty increased, btw.

[Eladiun]

Casual is a backup difficulty in case someone finds Normal too difficult.

From what I've played of the new content, I haven't found Normal to be a cakewalk by any stretch.

Elite is having its difficulty increased, btw.

Link your MYDDO.:p

[Cyr]

Link your MYDDO.:p

I agree and no joking.

Builds and gear are critically important to evaluate difficulty. Developers would gain better feedback with their difficulty queries and comments if they shared the same type of information that players do when providing detailed feedback.

This type of thing would help alot to improve the quality of feedback.

[DemonMage]

Elite is having its difficulty increased, btw.

Looking forward to the 300 damage melee attacks then I guess!

[Thrudh]

I agree and no joking.

Builds and gear are critically important to evaluate difficulty. Developers would gain better feedback with their difficulty queries and comments if they shared the same type of information that players do when providing detailed feedback.

This type of thing would help alot to improve the quality of feedback.

Developers really probably shouldn't even ask difficulty questions (except about elite) on these forums...

Most of us are way too good, and far too many of us have completely forgotten what it's like to be new.

There's not a single 1-19 quest that doesn't seem like a cakewalk to me on normal, but plenty of new players find them plenty challenging. Why should level 21-25 quests be any different (People have to stop thinking of them as "epic" quests... When you go into a level 21 quest on normal, it's not going to be much harder than that level 19 quest on normal.

[Cyr]

Developers really probably shouldn't even ask difficulty questions (except about elite) on these forums...

Most of us are way too good, and far too many of us have completely forgotten what it's like to be new.

There's not a single 1-19 quest that doesn't seem like a cakewalk to me on normal, but plenty of new players find them plenty challenging. Why should level 21-25 quests be any different (People have to stop thinking of them as "epic" quests... When you go into a level 21 quest on normal, it's not going to be much harder than that level 19 quest on normal.

Nonsense.

Plenty of players are capable of distinguishing between difficulty modes and seeing inconsistency between quests/raids in difficulty.

The more experienced the player the easier they can evaluate these sorts of things.

Dev asks for new quest "Hey guys can you give some feedback on the difficulty of this quest compared to similar level quests at same difficulty setting?" They would get some pretty solid feedback to that sort of query, particularly if it involved questions about different build types and party make ups.

[Eladiun]

Developers really probably shouldn't even ask difficulty questions (except about elite) on these forums...

Most of us are way too good, and far too many of us have completely forgotten what it's like to be new.

There's not a single 1-19 quest that doesn't seem like a cakewalk to me on normal, but plenty of new players find them plenty challenging. Why should level 21-25 quests be any different (People have to stop thinking of them as "epic" quests... When you go into a level 21 quest on normal, it's not going to be much harder than that level 19 quest on normal.


There in lies the point of us expecting the new content especially on the higher difficulties to provide a challenge. We have had 6 years to build characters and skill. now, with multiple past lives and gear we expect new to be hard.

That's how it works in other MMOs. It's called progression. In order to progress you must make milestones. Fresh of the boat should not be zooming to 20 and running Epic Elite.

I agree about 1-19 my TR partner and I can blitz just about any quest on Elite as a duo no sweat. That's multiple years of gear and TR's...old stuff should be easy. new stuff should be a challenge till you progress your gear; it's a simple cycle of challenge and reward. Keep me in my Skinner Box just don't bore me.

[marud]

Madfloyd asked to name a quest that is easier to do solo rather than with a party. Answer, weapons shipment. That quest since the revamp is way easier to do solo than with a party. That said I haven't gotten a real solid well balanced party to do the quest , I have however gotten 2 other people real solid to attempt it with me and have yet to complete it on elite the mobs just get too numerous and spread out to handle. Solo the numbers stay manageable. This is the only quest i can think of that way.

[Eladiun]

Madfloyd asked to name a quest that is easier to do solo rather than with a party. Answer, weapons shipment. That quest since the revamp is way easier to do solo than with a party. That said I haven't gotten a real solid well balanced party to do the quest , I have however gotten 2 other people real solid to attempt it with me and have yet to complete it on elite the mobs just get too numerous and spread out to handle. Solo the numbers stay manageable. This is the only quest i can think of that way.

Most of the Challenges are easier to solo or shortman than do in a party. Both of these example are entirely due to dungeon scaling.

[Chai]

Developers really probably shouldn't even ask difficulty questions (except about elite) on these forums...

Most of us are way too good, and far too many of us have completely forgotten what it's like to be new.

There's not a single 1-19 quest that doesn't seem like a cakewalk to me on normal, but plenty of new players find them plenty challenging. Why should level 21-25 quests be any different (People have to stop thinking of them as "epic" quests... When you go into a level 21 quest on normal, it's not going to be much harder than that level 19 quest on normal.

It all has to do with people being able to let go of past dev statements they interpreted as ironclad set in stone and unalterable - particularly the statement that epics will challenge "the best of the best" players.

Nowdays, the word epic simply means "over level 20" and doesnt have a difficulty attached to its definition, but some die hards arent buying it. The difficulty aspect is now defined by similar parameters we use to define what we call "heroic" quests - normal, hard, and elite.

The word "epic" no longer means you better have a minimal of Shroud and TOD gear on and have a clue for how to run the quest, so you understand which tactics work and which do not. Any beginner with a first life first time level 20+ toon will be able to run them - which is the same expectation currently in the level 1-20 game.

Some people are disappointed the game is losing that level of exclusivity it used to have at the high end. I say if people were more willing to teach and there were less 'know it or dont join" LFMs, there would be no reason to oversimplify the "normal" game. They made their own beds by contributing to the metagaming disparity which created a similar catch 22 situation as trying to take out a loan with no credit. So now the solution becomes oversimplification of the game for those who lack metagaming knowledge.

[marud]

Honestly in my opinion casual should be removed from the game. It is way too easy, if you are that incompetent at playing maybe you should take up crafting or add farming to the game so someone who has to play on casual to get something done has something to do. Should be normal hard and elite. Normal should be for a group of players to get the quest done and have them be competent. Hard should be for a group to have a slight increase in challenge an a greater chance for named items in relevant quests. Elite should be for hardcore people who have well built toons that need to work as a team to complete the quest with a even greater chance of name stuff dropping. I realize that is the intention of elite but it isn't the fact of elite. Most quests in the game can be solo'd on elite. I'm sorry, in my opinion if you go into a quest on elite solo it should be all you can do to get past the first fight. The very definition of elite should dictate the difficulty. Elite doesn't mean everyone who tries should be able to do it. Elite means few people can do something. How effective would the seals be if everyone could get in? There is a reason only a few make it they have the exceptional ability to be able to get something done no one else can

[Thrudh]

Nonsense.

Plenty of players are capable of distinguishing between difficulty modes and seeing inconsistency between quests/raids in difficulty.

The more experienced the player the easier they can evaluate these sorts of things.

I find the exact opposite to be true on these boards.

The majority of vets on these boards seem to have zero memory of how hard/easy the game was when they were new.

[Cyr]

I find the exact opposite to be true on these boards.

The majority of vets on these boards seem to have zero memory of how hard/easy the game was when they were new.

Read my post again. Take a few moments and notice that I was talking about inconsistencies between content of similar level and mode.

Your sidetrack about how all vets apparently have amnesia is really irrelevant to that. That would be an argument about the quality of absolute difficulty desired in content and the really dumb question a dev could ask "Hey guys is this quest too hard/easy?". Without qualifiers you just get general feedback about preference which is good to gather, BUT NOT ABOUT SPECIFIC INSTANCES instead about the game in general and modes in general.

Basically, it's not just is normal too easy? It is about is normal too easy for it's level compared to other comparable normal content. Experienced players by definition have more experience to evaluate that question compared to the new player who might have not even run comparable content more then once or even once.

[KyrzaBladedancer]

From what I've played of the new content...


There in lies, at least in my case, the issue. My comments have only ever been directed at old world Epic Normal, I have not played any of the new quests at any difficulty level, as I like to learn them when they are completed and scaled properly. It is quite possible that new content is properly scaling as you want, I think maybe you should see if old content is scaling properly as well.

And my comment about Bargain of Blood still stands. On Live I take anywhere from 2 to 10 points of damage on Heroic Elite, last time I checked on Lamma, I only took above 4 when shot by archers, with the average being 1s and 2s.

[irivan]

Casual is a backup difficulty in case someone finds Normal too difficult.

From what I've played of the new content, I haven't found Normal to be a cakewalk by any stretch.

Elite is having its difficulty increased, btw.

Mad, don't listen to these people who are making claims that the new content is super easy, that is not true, not at all, they have lost sight.

Most of the people playing the new content on Llama are the games hardcore players.

Just like they have this false idea that insta kills are overpowered, they and their small circles of friends live in a bubble of super powered ultra experienced players that make up the very bottom portion of this games bell curve.

They have no ability to provide objective feedback in the way of difficulty.

They can give you bugs, broken mechanics, and make game play recommendations based on their own collective strength, as well as fun ideas, but that is it.

[MadFloyd]

Mad, don't listen to these people who are making claims that the new content is super easy, that is not true, not at all, they have lost sight.

Most of the people playing the new content on Llama are the games hardcore players.

Just like they have this false idea that insta kills are overpowered, they and their small circles of friends live in a bubble of super powered ultra experienced players that make up the very bottom portion of this games bell curve.

They have no ability to provide objective feedback in the way of difficulty.

They can give you bugs, broken mechanics, and make game play recommendations based on their own collective strength, as well as fun ideas, but that is it.

QFT. If our only source for balancing Normal difficulty was these boards we'd be out of business pretty quick. :)

[Eladiun]

QFT. If our only source for balancing Normal difficulty was these boards we'd be out of business pretty quick. :)

If these people on the boards didn't stick with you through the down years with no updates and no hope, you would already be out of business.

[Lifespawn]

If these people on the boards didn't stick with you through the down years with no updates and no hope, you would already be out of business.



been a while since i've done it but +1 to you sir

Tho i do agree that using only feedback from people in the forums would be unwise a lot of stuff has been dumbed down a lot which is sad but a necessary evil i guess.

[legendlore]

QFT. If our only source for balancing Normal difficulty was these boards we'd be out of business pretty quick. :)

makes me wish you applied the same rule of conduct for class balance. Forum outcries does seem very effective in the latest caster debates and you can't have balanced content without balanced classes.

[Shade]

QFT. If our only source for balancing Normal difficulty was these boards we'd be out of business pretty quick. :)

Yea, though I don't agree with his statement of "only hardcore players" in the beta the other poster made.

I've grouped with dozens of players I could not qualify as such. EG:

Fresh 20s on druids completely unfamiliar with the game. Even met ones who played less then a week. Keep in mind this beta is also opened to players from IGN Prime that likely NEVER played the game, and may not even realise the live servers are available to them.
Melees who best weapon is a non-epic envenomed blade (and there offhand is a lootgen shield)
Casters who dont have any metamagics
Clr/Fvs that insist that carrying healing scroll does not increase their healing potential because they "have potions"
Etc etc, Pretty much im 100% confident there are a good share of non "hardcore" players on the beta. or aka: Players that should be playing normal difficulty.


And while these players often comment in normal difficulty runs that its "too easy" too, I think thats due to having players like myself in the group making it seem as such. If they went alone, or with others like themselves, they would encounter some challenge, if only from the casters monsters.

The thing is the gap between your top players and newer ones is larger then ever, so the difference between normal and elite needs to be larger then ever.

Caster mobs tend to challenge newer non-hardcoe players as any kind of CC is not easily delt with or prevented by them. Melee ones deal so very littel damage that they can generally handle it, but when CC'd and ganged up on, they may be in danger.

Very obvious in a quest like "Battle for eveningstar" which is fairly challenging for fresh 20s, due to many caster mobs and the powerful necromancers. Versus a quest like "The lost thread" which is fairly easy for everyone due to low amount of caster mobs.

However I do believe all new quests epic normal orange/red named don't really have any HP to challenge even fresh 20 casters. Your very basic geared 28point build lvl20 wizard can 1-3 shot most every boss in every quest, even the level23 quests. I think upping hp on those couldnt hurt on normal. That or reduce the effects of scaling somewhat.

Speaking of quest levels:
I think they should be buffed. They are all 1 too low imo.
As is, there is not a single level24 quest in the pack (raid is, but thats not exactly where people will be getting much xp). The cap is 25.. Thus no matter WHAT players run, if they join a pug for normal difficulty - 95% of the time if not more, they will suffer a -10% xp penatly due to having a 25 in the group. I don't think thats fair, and its never happened in the past.. EG:
Module 9 (cap up to 20)
Max quest level: 19 - no penalty grouped with capped chars
Module 6, (cap up to 16)
Max quest level: 16

[Nick_RC]

If these people on the boards didn't stick with you through the down years with no updates and no hope, you would already be out of business.

Truer words were never spoken. I wish turbine recognised this and threw the old timers a bone here and there rather than just cater to the masses. And no a slightly bigger pirate hat is not the answer.

N

[sirgog]

makes me wish you applied the same rule of conduct for class balance. Forum outcries does seem very effective in the latest caster debates and you can't have balanced content without balanced classes.

This.

Content that's moderately difficult in melee-heavy parties can be blitzed through by caster-heavy parties now.

Take live eChrono - with no pikers and a solid caster tank an all-caster group does the raid in 20-25 minutes in a PUG, while a 'balanced' PUG takes 40-45 min and uses mana potions. The casters are even faster if they all go out of their way to wear Fearsome armor and totally ignore trash.

[Claver]

Elite is having its difficulty increased, btw.

+1 Rep

TanK You

[sirgog]

Elite is having its difficulty increased, btw.

Sounds good.

Now if only I could get the 'I only care about loot' players to run it...

[sweez]

This.

Content that's moderately difficult in melee-heavy parties can be blitzed through by caster-heavy parties now.

Take live eChrono - with no pikers and a solid caster tank an all-caster group does the raid in 20-25 minutes in a PUG, while a 'balanced' PUG takes 40-45 min and uses mana potions. The casters are even faster if they all go out of their way to wear Fearsome armor and totally ignore trash.

What does 'balanced' mean though? A melee-heavy group will still roll through a Chrono in under 30 mins easy with no pot usage as long as they have a good tank (regardless of what class he is) and good trash management (that often comes down to a caster but I've been in runs where the only caster tanked and lo and behold trash was still taken care of). A 'balanced' group is not about some arbitrary distribution of classes or 'roles' on a pure melee - pure caster axis, it's about having quality people to do crucial jobs.

[Auran82]

Speaking of quest levels:
I think they should be buffed. They are all 1 too low imo.
As is, there is not a single level24 quest in the pack (raid is, but thats not exactly where people will be getting much xp). The cap is 25.. Thus no matter WHAT players run, if they join a pug for normal difficulty - 95% of the time if not more, they will suffer a -10% xp penatly due to having a 25 in the group. I don't think thats fair, and its never happened in the past.. EG:
Module 9 (cap up to 20)
Max quest level: 19 - no penalty grouped with capped chars
Module 6, (cap up to 16)
Max quest level: 16

This is something I am really concerned about when the expansion goes live, will there be enough XP to realistically:

- Level to 25
- Cap more than 2 or so Epic Destinies

Without having to go through extreme repetitions to getting over level penalties. Levelling an ED is going to end up a massive grind otherwise if we are doing quests for a couple of thousand XP each run. Unless they are trying to push people to *need* to TR in order to reset their quest repition count to level any more EDs.

Hell, if the same system regarding holding XP stays, I can see alot of people staying at 23 or 24 instead of actually levelling as level 25 doesn't really do anything.

[CarpeNoctu]

I do a lot of quests solo or duo and I really think that grouping should be encouraged more. Maybe change the scaling so that it's a little more difficult to short man quests.

I solo because I got sick of the attitudes I so often had to deal with. I got sick of the elitists, the noobs, the arrogant boasters... I'm here to have fun and those attitudes make that impossible for me.

I'm not saying that my laid back attitude is any less annoying to them, either. I realize that I may be way too laid back and unconcerned for their taste/style, and I have no problem accepting that. But, as I don't have a set time I get on every day or even every week, it's easier for me to solo than to find a static group of like minded people, and I've lost interest in the "box of chocolates" that is the pug.

So, when Turbine comes up with a way to change the players rather than the game, I'll fully support this, but as it is I'm perfectly happy taking my time and knowing it's my own fault when I fail, then working to improve my skill, my tactics and my gear so I can try it again.


This is D&D online!

Very true, but... D&D is a tabletop game that's generally played in a small room with a group of friends... It's not a game that you play in the food court of the mall with random strangers sitting down at random times to join a particular quest. You know the people you play D&D with and you're just as familiar with their attitudes as they are of yours, and that makes things much easier.

[Saravis]

What sort of damage were you doing, OP?

I ask this because your choice of class rose some flags, the druids have been reported to be doing absurd (and likely broken) amounts of damage. Now I haven't any personal experience with this, I've only heard from various sources, namely people that I run with regularly, but if it is true, then perhaps the epic wasn't too easy for you, you were just too powerful for it.

Pardon if this question was already asked.

[Zorth]

Why?

[Machination]

I think Epic Levels should encourage grouping and scaling should be toned way down or even turn off across the board. Being able to solo a level 20, 21, 22 quest should be an achievement like it used to be, not the norm. I also agree perhaps you should find a different name to call Epic Level quests, sure in a few months we'll be used to it, but we will forever see Epics as what we currently have on Live.

P.S. Thanks for letting me poke you!

Well, here is what I think:

1. I am really glad there is a normal/hard/elite Epic settings. This allows for a lot more diversity in the way one quest (content) can be played.

2. It was always a reason I would TR immediately after a couple of days of Epic runs after hitting 20. I hate waiting around for groups. Especially at non "US Busy" times, like Tuesday 3am EST time. Getting Epic raid together then? Yeah, not in 10 minutes which is the most time I want to wait around staring at the ship. That being said now a lot of Epics are already too easy. But after this new difficulty selection option, while putting together or waiting for Elite Epic whatever, I can be soloing in Normal Epic whatever and plan to complete, whatever class I am playing. That's attractive. There is an argument that even Elite EPic should be solo-able, but I am going to refrain from that argument and just be happy with Elite Epic will require a full group, and be very difficult. It should be more difficult than Epic on any Epic quest today.

3. Keep the word "Epic" for any quest lvl 20 and above. Its fine. And "Elite" as the hardest difficulty. Not sure what reasoning is behind the friction that some players are giving over this. It is a silly argument "what to name the difficulty settings". Who cares what its called, as long as it is challenging, fun, and requires a group they could call it "Dragon Spam Difficulty" for all I care. People will forget what Epic meant and cling to what it now means, almost immediately.

4. Elite Epic ANYTHING, should be almost impossible, if not impossible, for any groups that are not lvl 25 to complete. Set the bar high. Norm/Hard yeah whatever, just make Elite a real stumper something that really requires good builds to complete. Something that only 1-3% max of the player base will be able to do over the next year. If its too easy and anyone can do it, I hope there is a massive pipeline of content, because as soon as masses start running Elites, new content needed ;)

[Zorth]

Epic no longer has anything to do with difficulty. Elite is the toughest difficulty.

Epic simply means level 20+.

Thus, Epic Normal is really just Normal.

That said, if Normal may be to easy - after all this is beta and we're still balancing.

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.

Epic Elite should be very difficult and the feedback we are getting it that it is.

You make no sense!

With all do respect you make no sense.

[Auran82]

You make no sense!

With all do respect you make no sense.

As I said earlier, people need to dump any preconcieved notions of what Epic *used* to mean, epic is now simply 'Level 20+' or in the case of Heroic quests with an epic mode 'Scaled to level 20+'

Epic normal, is 'normal mode on a level 20+' quest, nothing more, no special 'for the best of the best' rubbish that it used to have.

Epic was possibly the worst name they could have given what we have been running for the past couple of years, maybe at the time they didn't think it was an issue because the game probably didn't look like it was going to last long enough to get another cap raise, but here we are, drop old ideas on what 'epic' means, and move on.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

What sort of damage were you doing, OP?

I ask this because your choice of class rose some flags, the druids have been reported to be doing absurd (and likely broken) amounts of damage. Now I haven't any personal experience with this, I've only heard from various sources, namely people that I run with regularly, but if it is true, then perhaps the epic wasn't too easy for you, you were just too powerful for it.

Pardon if this question was already asked.

I was using Firewall most of the time..so fire damage..
If you mean the damage numbers. It was pretty much like a wizard casting Firewalls without using a good combustion item and no lore item. So pretty weak..around 150-200 per tic i would say.

-----

But since alot of people seem to have missed it again in the whole thread here...

I was playing a new Druid charakter! He had no good gear! Not even a heavy Fort item! And he was blasting through that Quest like its a level 18 quest on casual.

I was killing Sobrien with a +5 plain quarterstaff! On a Druid! a pretty much bad melee. He had a +2 Strenght item..and thats it.

If you really think that this should be the difficulty of a level 21 Quest for a ungeared level 21 Charakter....well then this game has lost already...

Noone will be challenged with that...not even my grandmother if she would start playing :)

Edit: And to make it clear again. I dont think it is the fault of the Quests. I think the main reason for this is how bad scaling works. The difficulty decrease is way too big when you compare 6 people to 3 people to solo.

[Shade]

This is something I am really concerned about when the expansion goes live, will there be enough XP to realistically:

- Level to 25
- Cap more than 2 or so Epic Destinies

Without having to go through extreme repetitions to getting over level penalties. Levelling an ED is going to end up a massive grind otherwise if we are doing quests for a couple of thousand XP each run. Unless they are trying to push people to *need* to TR in order to reset their quest repition count to level any more EDs.

Hell, if the same system regarding holding XP stays, I can see alot of people staying at 23 or 24 instead of actually levelling as level 25 doesn't really do anything.

Enough xp? lol thats not a concern.

Just running probably half of the quests once on each difficulty with only moderate bonuses should get you 25, and 1.5-2 destinies.
The rest you can easily get through some more quests, and there also some pretty huge xp to be had on certain challenges. Also keep in mind challengs have no repeat penalties, and there are FOUR INSANELY LARGE explorer area, each of which goes up to 7500+ or higher on slayers.. So no, you willl indeed be able to cap every destiny without any "extreme" repetition.

"enough" xp is never gona be a concern.

XP without penalties tho, that will be. Even if its still fast enough, its just not fun to see negatives that you generally cannot prevent in nearly everything you run.

Even most old epics are set to a measly lvl21 base. EVen the mighty "extreme challenge" epic DA is lvl21.. Which means even set to elite, theres inevitably gona be a -10% for all but the trailblazers.

Would rather see high numbers, with lower xp, then take penalties. Just "feels" better.

The lower lvl epics will also most likely have a negative impact on renown, as the calculation is based on char level vs quest lvl.. Which in the past was +5 over in all epics, and it now minus 1-4.

[Auran82]

Just running probably half of the quests once on each difficulty with only moderate bonuses should get you 25, and 1.5-2 destinies.
The rest you can easily get through some more quests, and there also some pretty huge xp to be had on certain challenges. Also keep in mind challengs have no repeat penalties, and there are FOUR INSANELY LARGE explorer area, each of which goes up to 7500+ or higher on slayers.. So no, you willl indeed be able to cap every destiny without any "extreme" repetition.

I thought the star bonuses were a one off high amount of xp, then a small amount for following runs, or was that changed?

I know 5 staring a challenge the first time on live gives like 40k and the times after that will give closer to 10k or just over

[Shade]

Epic normal, is 'normal mode on a level 20+' quest, nothing more, no special 'for the best of the best' rubbish that it used to have.


Not exactly true. There are still gona be heroic vs epic modes, evne for new quests.

EG: Into the rift offers both modes, and the overall CRs don't vary much, but the challenge increases very slightly.

So Epic Normal will be slightly harder then Heroic Normal for the same quest, even if its' a very marginal difference.

Was fairly easy to tell this when the forest tended to offer both modes due to a bug, there were slightly difference. Maybe ~5% more incoming dmg. Very minor.

[Shade]

I thought the star bonuses were a one off high amount of xp, then a small amount for following runs, or was that changed?

I know 5 staring a challenge the first time on live gives like 40k and the times after that will give closer to 10k or just over

Yea the first time bonus is still there.

Just saying the 2nd to 90000th run will be the same, if you 6stard the first one. And they arent too bad xp wise on later runs, at least certain challenges..

And think more like 160k xp first time instead of 60k on live ones. Though numbers are likely still in flux.

[Auran82]

Not exactly true. There are still gona be heroic vs epic modes, evne for new quests.

EG: Into the rift offers both modes, and the overall CRs don't vary much, but the challenge increases very slightly.

So Epic Normal will be slightly harder then Heroic Normal for the same quest, even if its' a very marginal difference.

Was fairly easy to tell this when the forest tended to offer both modes due to a bug, there were slightly difference. Maybe ~5% more incoming dmg. Very minor.

I thought some of the starting expansion quests were level 19 instead of being over 20? I know the hospital one was. Which would explain why they had both modes.

[patang01]

QFT. If our only source for balancing Normal difficulty was these boards we'd be out of business pretty quick. :)

I've found normal hard on some classes and like normal on others. I don't find anything easy with the current amount of caster spam going on. As long as hard and elite ramp up difficulty as said normal as is seems like it should.

I think people who claim that normal is too easy also compares Epic to how Epic used to be - soloed only by the absolutely elite geared caster types, all others better run in packs.

If that was the case no one would be able to solo this new content. Which is still true on some classes.

[patang01]

Speaking of quest levels:
I think they should be buffed. They are all 1 too low imo.
As is, there is not a single level24 quest in the pack (raid is, but thats not exactly where people will be getting much xp). The cap is 25.. Thus no matter WHAT players run, if they join a pug for normal difficulty - 95% of the time if not more, they will suffer a -10% xp penatly due to having a 25 in the group. I don't think thats fair, and its never happened in the past.. EG:
Module 9 (cap up to 20)
Max quest level: 19 - no penalty grouped with capped chars
Module 6, (cap up to 16)
Max quest level: 16

I agree - and I'm no elite player; anyone soloing or duoing content after level 23 will be slow screwed - especially running older Epic content as most is level 19 casual and 21 for normal. Then if anyone want to level a second destiny the effect gets worse.

In Beta after the third reset I ended up leveling my FvS running mostly normal quests with a constant XP penalty.

[knockcocker]

Very true, but... D&D is a tabletop game that's generally played in a small room with a group of friends... It's not a game that you play in the food court of the mall with random strangers sitting down at random times to join a particular quest. You know the people you play D&D with and you're just as familiar with their attitudes as they are of yours, and that makes things much easier.

Sigh. I wish more people got this.

[Vallin]

QFT. If our only source for balancing Normal difficulty was these boards we'd be out of business pretty quick. :)

LOL Irivan, you have been qft by a dev... It may be a record for someone with as big a hidden red stick as you to achieve this honor :P

Anyway, you are correct - example being my 5th life TR FvS - running through caster lives on elite content at all levels solo and duo and rarely being in danger except when I do something stupid or risky, or if I am playing too late and zerg face first into a trap that I should have avoided.

I have maintained some very limited perspective on game difficulty because I keep recalling that I could not do what I am doing now when I started this game six years ago. I know that my original ranger struggled to get past the stupid wolf and kobold on the way to ww. I have no freaking idea what I was trying to do at the time but I hated that encounter. LOL!! So we all had difficulty when we were learning this game and for the most part we have forgotten.

I'm cool with devs bypassing my opinion on normal difficulties. I trust they have a room of noobs and newbs that they can survey for those purposes. That would be most healthy for game development IMO. We need the noobs and newbs to become vets eventually, and hopefully they won't fill the forums with garbage when they get to that point.

Vallin.

[Postumus]

Mad, don't listen to these people who are making claims that the new content is super easy, that is not true, not at all, they have lost sight.

Most of the people playing the new content on Llama are the games hardcore players.



And already the same people complaining that the new content is too easy are now complaining some of it is too hard. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=378150)

Love it.

[SockMonkey]

If these people on the boards didn't stick with you through the down years with no updates and no hope, you would already be out of business.

QFT - "Vast and mysterious" 'Nuff said.

[nayozz]

Mad, don't listen to these people who are making claims that the new content is super easy, that is not true, not at all, they have lost sight.

Most of the people playing the new content on Llama are the games hardcore players.


/signed...


when veterans find out bug, broken things it is fine, instead when they say :" omg with my uber op epic raid gear, completionist and such i find this normal quest too eazy1y1y1y1y1"
just do not listen in that case :D


edit: so, what i should be forced to do ? say to a generic player: sorry i can no longer group with you, cause a veteran boasted on a beta forum to unfaily raise normal difficulty and this quest just can't be done with subpar people like you, but only with overgeared and tr characters... i best solo it than face a 100% failure cause of you being in my party, raising the dungeon scaling up a notch and making quest on normal impossible to complete.

[JOTMON]

With Scaling... it may be more of a challenge with a party rather than solo

^This.


I suspect the new epic content is not as easy as people are boasting them to be.
A uber geared caster soloing a scaled dungeon is not a fair representation.

Dungeon scaling for soloing vs a party is a huge difference.
Even 2 manning becomes an easy button vs a full party run.

To me it appears the dungeon scaling is broken.

I can run elite cannith challenges 2man melee (was running Progenitor crystal.. the protect the kobold with the big crystal) with no issues, mobs are manageable. Was going so well we decided to invite a couple more people to get them through it.

4 man party(no casters -2 protecting the foreman did not wander, the other 2 were at the cat path) as soon as the kobold picked up the crystal we went from no alert to full on red dungeon alert. As melee's we could not run, superslowed and mobbed to death.

Thought it must have been a bad instance tried 2 more times then said screw this and changed to two 2man parties both of which completed several runs without any issues.

I definitely notice a big difference questing wise between running a full party and soloing epic quests.

So when I see braggards boasting about how they solo'ed an epic quest.. it is a meaningless achievement.

Solo It with without Dungeon Scaling (a party of 5 pikers in the quest) and I'll recognize that as epic worthy.

The whole Dungeon Scaling needs to be scrapped.. either run it with a party or be uber enough to short man it.

Red dungeon alert also needs to be scrapped or changed, it doesnt hurt zerging casters they can throw down an AOE and still kill everything around them since spells are not impacted in any way, only melee's who cant move or hit mobs are detrimentally impacted.

At least change this DA by removing the existing effects and change to a blue bar 50% spell damage reduction penalty for Red DA.. that would hurt caster zergs who are saving SP by running past mobs. Center the DA on the offender, the quest wide impact of DA screws the entire party who end up red DA and are nowhere near the active mobs aggroed on a rogue zerger or lost soul running for his life in the wrong direction.

The game is supposed to be geared to party play not catering to soloists who can't solo unscaled content.

[JOTMON]

Speaking of quest levels:
The cap is 25.. Thus no matter WHAT players run, if they join a pug for normal difficulty - 95% of the time if not more, they will suffer a -10% xp penatly due to having a 25 in the group. I don't think thats fair, and its never happened in the past.. EG:
Module 9 (cap up to 20)
Max quest level: 19 - no penalty grouped with capped chars
Module 6, (cap up to 16)
Max quest level: 16


The way I see it..
Epic levels 21 to 25 - some are destiny/twist xp'ing, some will go straight to 25 without twists.
Epic 21-25 will be running the same/similar content on a regular basis and it is unreasonable to apply XP penalties to parties mixed in this range.

Any Epic party running levels 21-25 should not receive any XP penalties.
Bring a Epic 21+ into a 20epic and let the 10%penalty apply.
Bring a Epic 21+ into anything below Epic 20 and let the big penalties apply.

[Spartywinz]

Clr/Fvs that insist that carrying healing scroll does not increase their healing potential because they "have potions"







With unlimited potions on lama, even on epic elite you only need scrolls if you have below average melee. I'm just trying to help you be the best you can be.

[praetor]

i hopped on lam and did a few of the old epics on normal. all i suggest is that the naming be changed. because epic is one of the last words i'd use to describe it. the devs clearly have an agenda in mind as evidenced by their responses so far, so at this point instead of trying to make suggestions about actual game improvement, we could instead help them with renaming. clearly, epic is the new casual.

[tanzer]

QFT. If our only source for balancing Normal difficulty was these boards we'd be out of business pretty quick. :)

If you publish half the changes proposed to live you'll be outa business pretty quick ;)

[danotmano1998]

^This.
To me it appears the dungeon scaling is broken.

I can run elite cannith challenges 2man <snip>


Yes, but challenges are twice over broken, and admitted to by a dev. (Madfloyd??)
These have 2 kinds of scaling going on in them, which is NOT WAI.

[Krell]

The way I see it..
Epic levels 21 to 25 - some are destiny/twist xp'ing, some will go straight to 25 without twists.
Epic 21-25 will be running the same/similar content on a regular basis and it is unreasonable to apply XP penalties to parties mixed in this range.

Any Epic party running levels 21-25 should not receive any XP penalties.
Bring a Epic 21+ into a 20epic and let the 10%penalty apply.
Bring a Epic 21+ into anything below Epic 20 and let the big penalties apply.

I think there should be no powerlevelling or over level penalties for quests and players in the 21-25 range. Maybe 20-25 range since it seems some of these quests on normal will be 20. Let Epic players play together without the need to exclude certain players or quest difficulties.

The four level range wasn't bad when the cap was lower. If you keep a static number like four and continue to increase player levels, you are chopping the player base pie into smaller pieces. This further restricts the number of online players available to group with you which increases the difficulty of forming no-penalty groups, and I don't think we want that. I vote for bigger pie pieces. Strawberry-Rhubarb would be nice.

[Ivan_Milic]

For people that did epic normal,whats the scroll drop rate,is it the same as live epics?

[Machination]

I don't really care about the name. As long as "Elite Epic" is more difficult than "Epic" on all the existing quests today. "Epic" is already a silly name for a lot of "Epic" difficulty on quests on live servers right now. Considering "n/h/e Epic" difficulty will be available on all existing quests, just make elite a real challenge, as I posted before should be something only a really competent group of 25's with full gear can do, "Elite" has lost its meaning in 99% of the game already. "Epic" is already an extremely tarnished name in my mind as well. Name changes don't really help anything....do they?

There is an entire other argument, which a lot of people don't talk about on forums much, which is just STOP messing with all the old content (everything that has been released to date) only leaving at most bug fixes for that content (we don't need three difficulty settings for old content we've all run 100's of times), and focus only on new content and new challenges.





i hopped on lam and did a few of the old epics on normal. all i suggest is that the naming be changed. because epic is one of the last words i'd use to describe it. the devs clearly have an agenda in mind as evidenced by their responses so far, so at this point instead of trying to make suggestions about actual game improvement, we could instead help them with renaming. clearly, epic is the new casual.

[akash]

That said, if Normal may be to easy - after all this is beta and we're still balancing.

Please also balance the epic token things, if Epic Elite doesn't drop at-least one full token, that will left lots of sad faces.

[garlor]

This is already the problem with heroic levels-no need to group..grouping just makes all quests harder.

no, grouping with bad players makes the quests harder, grouping with good players makes em easier

the OP got 21 token fragments in what, 8-15 minutes?, you can get 1 token every 10 minutes in the challenges, 1 token in like 10-15 mins in lords of dust or etides, and I'd like to see the chance for scroll drops on epic normal

[Rizzia]

Im maybe the only one who thinks it, but I feel theres a difficulty missing. Theres a HUGE gap between EH and EE. I find EH easier than current live epics and EE over the top. (Some EEs I can see me doing, others are just plain HP bloat). Its certainly a bigger gap than heroic hard-elite.

Maybe Ive spoken up about this too late, who knows, but since lam has been down Ive had time to reflect on this, and I fear Im going to be stuck failing EE, cause I want a challenge and not getting anywhere^^.

Im in no way asking for EE to be dumbed down, just wish EE was say nightmare mode, and EE was inbetween.

[SpiralArchitect]

Im maybe the only one who thinks it, but I feel theres a difficulty missing. Theres a HUGE gap between EH and EE. I find EH easier than current live epics and EE over the top. (Some EEs I can see me doing, others are just plain HP bloat). Its certainly a bigger gap than heroic hard-elite.
Couldn't agree more. EH is just ridiculously easy. Whether solo or with a full party. And I've thought this since before any of my characters had any of the newest gear (and before anyone asks, no I wasn't geared out with more than a couple epic weapons/items among all of my chars).

[loki_3369]

yep well seems with all this "oh epic content is to hard" dumming down

Elite epic is probably gonna be about 50% easier then it is now

epic eleet to hard plz nerf.

[stoerm]

When I could take a fresh level 20 with **** for gear, and do it solo, I think there is something wrong.

I believe that's intentional, just like you can take a fresh level 1 into a level 2 normal quest.

[stoerm]

Couldn't agree more. EH is just ridiculously easy. Whether solo or with a full party. And I've thought this since before any of my characters had any of the newest gear (and before anyone asks, no I wasn't geared out with more than a couple epic weapons/items among all of my chars).

Please specify which epics. I can easily solo epic hard snitch on my wizzy, but found epic hard EDQ1 and VoN1 too tough at least on first try.