XP Penalties for epic levels

[MadFloyd]

I want to clear up something about how XP penalties work for epic levels.

For the purposes of determining whether there will be an XP penalty, we calculate a player's level this way:

# Heroic Levels + # Active Destiny Levels

(or 20 + active destiny level)

We do this to provide flexibility. This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24.

Conversely a level 25 player can switch to a new destiny and be considered level 20 for the purposes of XP penalties.

We welcome feedback on this, especially the constructive kind. :)


EDIT: Based on feedback, this change will be reverted. Thanks for the feedback!

[Drwaz99]

I may be a little naive when it comes to this, so bear with me, but why even bother with XP penalties in epic quests? Sure, I can see a 18 running with a 24, you should get dinged hard (but wouldn't be allowed in an EPIC quest so it's kind of moot for those quests). But can you elaborate on the reasoning behind 20-21 having a penalty for running with a 24-25?

I just see this as another thing that has more potential to cloud and confuse people. Maybe it's because I'm still over-whelmed with everything else.

[nivarch]

I have a few concerns:

1/ Aren't some destiny enhancements supposed to have a minimum level?
If yes, how do you handle this? It would be bad to be considered level 25 because you have a level 5 active ED, but can't use any of the top tier enhancements since you are only level 20.

2/ Items still have a ML based on character level, level 25 characters will probably be much more powerful than level 20 because they will have access to end game gear.
Can't this be an issue?:
- A level 20 TR with a level 5 ED will be considered level 25 but won't be able to equip his gear (and don't tell me to change ED, there is a time where you'll have all ED capped...) so he will have a penalty in lower level quests and won't be strong enough for higher level ones
- A level 25 with a level 0 ED will be considered level 20, but will be able to steamroll any level 20 content because of his gear (this is not a major concern tho)


However I love the fact that you could swap ED to be able to lower your level to run with friends. Yet this won't work eternally since, as previously mentioned, you'll cap all destinies one day or another.

Edit: Best solution for me would be to completly remove penalty. It's only 5 levels, so shouldn't be a big deal, and would avoid the worst issue (the one where people with a high ED level take an xp penalty while they are still leveling their character level).

[Chai]

Its going to be kind of hard to see right off the bat.

Currently if I want to maintain an elite streak for instance, I can look at the LFM and see everyones levels in a group and see if that qualifies or not.

In this system are the active ED going to show up in the LFM? If not, how will I know what level we are counted as for penalization BEFORE I join? Its better to know this before joining, than having to join and pull up the quest detail sheet to see that someone qualifies as a level 25 and therefore is heavily penalizing the rest of the 20s and 21s in the group.

[Coldin]

Seems like a great idea to me. It should mean leveling up with friends is easier too once you get to Epic Levels.


What I'm more curious and concerned about is how things like Bravery Bonuses, and Repetition penalties will work with Epic quests. Bravery Bonuses I assume are going to be a first time only thing, with the first time completion only resetting after a TR.

The repetition penalties might get a bit ugly, since now with 10 different destinies to potentially level, there needs to be a lot of potential xp in the game. Will there be repetition penalties in Epic content? And if so, is there a plan to address quests only giving meager xp for characters working on many epic destinies?

[Ertay]

Do repitition penalties still apply regardless of active ED or do they reset with it?

[redspecter23]

Is this for xp purposes only? As mentioned above, if I have a bunch of newly acquired level 23+ gear, does it all fall off when I switch destinies and start leveling another one?

[Drwaz99]

The repetition penalties might get a bit ugly, since now with 10 different destinies to potentially level, there needs to be a lot of potential xp in the game. Will there be repetition penalties in Epic content? And if so, is there a plan to address quests only giving meager xp for characters working on many epic destinies?

You make a good point here. Have Epic XP required (between levels) been locked down? I know they say that they aren't in the Notes, so I can only assume no. Certainly would be curious as to how much we are going to have to repeat quests.

[sephiroth1084]

I want to clear up something about how XP penalties work for epic levels.

For the purposes of determining whether there will be an XP penalty, we calculate a player's level this way:

# Heroic Levels + # Active Destiny Levels

(or 20 + active destiny level)

We do this to provide flexibility. This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24.

Conversely a level 25 player can switch to a new destiny and be considered level 20 for the purposes of XP penalties.

We welcome feedback on this, especially the constructive kind. :)
This discourages the activating of destines, which is a bad idea. Please just have them tied to Heroic level + Epic level.

For someone that TRs with some ED abilities unlocked, getting to level 20 should be cause for celebration, as you get to once more claim your epic abilities, not dread as you have to decide between using the cool stuff you had unlocked last life and leveling thanks to XP counting you as level 24 even though you are actually level 20.

[danotmano1998]

This discourages the activating of destines, which is a bad idea. Please just have them tied to Heroic level + Epic level.

This, PLEASE!

Destinies shouldn't be counted as levels, IMO. They are basically epic enhancements.
A level 21 character should be a level 21 character, period.

Anything else is unnecessarily confusing and un-needed, IMO.
A level 20 can be counted as levels 20-25 ? Why?!?

No, please. Things are already confusing enough. Destinies =/= levels.

Anyone who doesn't have the destinies should NOT be penalized for playing with those that do. Please avoid further segregation of the player base between the haves and have nots.


Is this for xp purposes only? As mentioned above, if I have a bunch of newly acquired level 23+ gear, does it all fall off when I switch destinies and start leveling another one?
Argh.. didn't even think of this wrinkle..

See? Keep it simple guys!

Thank you!!

[stainer]

Is there going to be a penalty for a lvl 25 grouping with a lvl 20, as in the lvl 20 taking a "power leveled" hit?

[Coldin]

This discourages the activating of destines, which is a bad idea. Please just have them tied to Heroic level + Epic level.

For someone that TRs with some ED abilities unlocked, getting to level 20 should be cause for celebration, as you get to once more claim your epic abilities, not dread as you have to decide between using the cool stuff you had unlocked last life and leveling thanks to XP counting you as level 24 even though you are actually level 20.

Not sure I get why this is an issue...

Overall, the epic levels don't make a huge difference, compared to what Epic Destinies offer. And if you're worried about maximizing the xp you get while working on Epic Levels, you could always just work on a new destiny, which still brings benefits.

[Ovrad]

Oh dear, I can already imagine how grouping would work:

[Post a lfm saying "max ED lv 2, we want bravery streak"]
[Group fills up]
[We all fight our way through the explorer area, and step into the quest]
[Look at xp panel, there's a level 23 in, no Bravery bonus]
- Ok who has 3 level of ED?
[Nobody speaks up]
- Come on, who is killing our streak? We want xp!
[Silence]
...
[Leave group, start over with 20 mins wasted]


Sounds like good times.

[hiryuu42]

Seems like a great idea to me. It should mean leveling up with friends is easier too once you get to Epic Levels.

Could you expand on this a bit? I see this as making it harder.

For example, two TRs duo together in Heroic levels. They should reach level 20 at roughly the same time (some variation for ship/pot XP bonuses). One wants to finish up their current ED, and one wants to drill over to another sphere. Now one is "level 24" and the other is "level 20" and gets whacked with power leveling penalties.

[stainer]

Could you expand on this a bit? I see this as making it harder.

For example, two TRs duo together in Heroic levels. They should reach level 20 at roughly the same time (some variation for ship/pot XP bonuses). One wants to finish up their current ED, and one wants to drill over to another sphere. Now one is "level 24" and the other is "level 20" and gets whacked with power leveling penalties.

If that is true, that is a terrible mechanic. Levels 20-25 should be able to group together without issue. There are several reasons. Content is limited at those levels. Those levels are the end game. I could go on, but I hope you (someone) gets the idea.

[RobbinB]

KISS.

If you really need to have an xp penalty, then how does simply using heroic + epic level not work?

I would take things a step further and ask if it's really essential to have any xp penalties at all in Epic. Can't a newly-capped lvl 20 still contribute to the success of a group containing five level 25s with maxed destinies?

If we aren't scared of dual boxed powerleveling (with complete piking) why are we scared about the potential of powerleveling here?

[patang01]

I want to clear up something about how XP penalties work for epic levels.

For the purposes of determining whether there will be an XP penalty, we calculate a player's level this way:

# Heroic Levels + # Active Destiny Levels

(or 20 + active destiny level)

We do this to provide flexibility. This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24.

Conversely a level 25 player can switch to a new destiny and be considered level 20 for the purposes of XP penalties.

We welcome feedback on this, especially the constructive kind. :)

For me the XP penalty remains the one drawback to actually soloing content as I'm not going to waste resources by running on hard or elite (especially with dumb hirelings) in which case I'm constantly forced to suffer XP penalties when my char hits level 22 and above.

This system is not very effective. Please make it level 25 across the board or something. There shouldn't be any XP penalties at all. You devs have stated that causal and normal is for soloing and hard and elite closer to how the old epic diff was.

[Cyr]

Problems with this (not meant to be all inclusive list)...


You actually do gain some power from epic levels regardless of the ED you have slotted.
You gain ALOT more power from higher level ML items (which are tied to your epic levels not your ED tiers).
Actually makes grouping with friends more convuluted depending on where people are on their ED...a similar situation would be if you were power leveling people with your TRs depending on if they were 1st life, 2nd, 3rd, 4th...it's all hidden and worse in ED case can be changed to optimize for a dungeon which could mean different level penalties...
Makes balancing content for epic levels basically not possible below the current level cap. The gear swing is going to be a killer for this sort of thing. It would be like trying to balance for players who have eSoS, eabishi sets, and tod sets compared to guys with crystal cove ML 16 gear for the same quest level.
The shell game of what level someone really is will be a nightmare for groups.

[Sandpredator]

You also have to take into consideration that Epic Destinies are only available to people who purchased the XPack. There will still be F2P people leveling to 25 that will take a significant hit when leveling with tr's that have full ED available.

[Coldin]

Could you expand on this a bit? I see this as making it harder.

For example, two TRs duo together in Heroic levels. They should reach level 20 at roughly the same time (some variation for ship/pot XP bonuses). One wants to finish up their current ED, and one wants to drill over to another sphere. Now one is "level 24" and the other is "level 20" and gets whacked with power leveling penalties.

I guess I viewed it more as...

One player has been questing at level 20, with his level 5 epic destiny. One of his buddies just reached epic levels. Now the first player can jump into a new epic destiny, and go questing with him, still making progress on something and not hurting any xp by being overlevel.

[Cyr]

You also have to take into consideration that Epic Destinies are only available to people who purchased the XPack. There will still be F2P people leveling to 25 that will take a significant hit when leveling with tr's that have full ED available.

Well under this system they would be permanently power leveled more or less at near endgame play :)

They would have no tiers of ED so level 20 max...

[redspecter23]

I guess you need to look at the pro's and con's of using destiny level vs. character level

Character level = character level

1. It makes more sense and is in line with how heroic works.
2. Discourages anyone from taking level 25. You'll have a pile of 23's and 24's running around so they can group with their guildies and friends to earn destiny xp. The cap would essentially be 23 until you have all the xp you need, then you take 25 and get shut out of most groups because of the penalty you apply.
3. Soloists will stay at level 22 and 23 as long as possible because of the need to run level 21 quests. Level 22 and higher seem to be meant for grouping only, so your solo options only go up to level 21. High level soloists are screwed for xp.

Character level = Heroic level + active destiny level
1. If you want to group with people, you have some flexibility to "change" your level to allow for more grouping options
2. It's confusing as **** trying to put a group together to maintain xp
3. It discourages players from using their capped destines all together. You'll be told to spec out of it, or just not come because you'll be applying an xp hit.
4. Soloists will find it difficult to max out destiny lines without grouping and running epic hard and epic elite for xp as long as most (all?) epic normal quests are flagged as level 21. On a similar note, more casual players will be forced to run higher difficulties of quests in order to proceed. For heroic tiers, we have normal to run from 1 -20.

[danotmano1998]

Two biggest problems with the suggested implementation:

1. Those that do not have the xpac are going to be segregated from those that do. BAD IDEA. Please consider this.

2. This is an unnecessarily complicated and convoluted system that makes little to no sense. Character level is character level. Destinies are nothing more than the action points Turbine decided to make pay only that SHOULD have come with epic levels anyhow.

I can't stress enough how bad the proposed idea is!! :eek:

Suggestions:

1. Get rid of lvl 21-25 level penalties alltogether.
For all intents and purposes, anyone that is 20-25 should be treated epic xp wise as equals. Period.

Failing that,

2. Make heroic level + epic level = character level.
This is simple, intuitive, and logical.

[B0ltdrag0n]

If this is just to see xp penalty for the quest level. I could get behind it except for the "Hard to Kill" changes on epic hard/Elite, but understand the purpose and think it is ultimately ok.

If it is to apply to xp penalties for running your 25 with your level 20 friend. I do not like it at all.

[Jastron]

What he said. Involving epic destinies that some have access to and others don't, that can be easily switched from day to day and without being noticeable when grouping would make joining an LFM rather hit or miss. Can you imagine the confusion if a L20 with 5 levels of ED is grouped with a Level 25 who didn't purchase the ED pack, and the L25 is power levelled? The scenario will be possible in the future if ED levels are added to heroic levels, but epic levels are not. So get rid of the penalties or remove ED's from the calc in some way.


Suggestions:

1. Get rid of lvl 21-25 level penalties alltogether.
For all intents and purposes, anyone that is 20-25 should be treated epic xp wise as equals. Period.

Failing that,

2. Make heroic level + epic level = character level.
This is simple, intuitive, and logical.

[MrkGrismer]

I want to clear up something about how XP penalties work for epic levels.

For the purposes of determining whether there will be an XP penalty, we calculate a player's level this way:

# Heroic Levels + # Active Destiny Levels

(or 20 + active destiny level)

We do this to provide flexibility. This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24.

Conversely a level 25 player can switch to a new destiny and be considered level 20 for the purposes of XP penalties.

We welcome feedback on this, especially the constructive kind. :)

So those people that decide to never buy destinies are forever capped at 20, as far as xp goes...

I would be most in favor of ditching all the level-based penalties for epic, they just don't make a lot of sense there.

[psteen1]

geeezzzzzzz.... This is kinda confusing. How about we are called whatever level we are currently on? Kinda logical......... We are getting actual levels from 21-25, aren't we??? ;)

[redspecter23]

geeezzzzzzz.... This is kinda confusing. How about we are called whatever level we are currently on? Kinda logical......... We are getting actual levels from 21-25, aren't we??? ;)

Level 21 - 25 are for technical and aesthetic purposes only so that we can't claim Turbine is charging both f2p and VIP's to actually progress through the sale of epic destinies where the actual power lies after level 20.

Ok, that's my "tin foil hat" comment for the day.

[oradafu]

We do this to provide flexibility. This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24.



I have a few concerns:

1/ Aren't some destiny enhancements supposed to have a minimum level?
If yes, how do you handle this? It would be bad to be considered level 25 because you have a level 5 active ED, but can't use any of the top tier enhancements since you are only level 20.

2/ Items still have a ML based on character level, level 25 characters will probably be much more powerful than level 20 because they will have access to end game gear.
Can't this be an issue?:
- A level 20 TR with a level 5 ED will be considered level 25 but won't be able to equip his gear (and don't tell me to change ED, there is a time where you'll have all ED capped...) so he will have a penalty in lower level quests and won't be strong enough for higher level ones
- A level 25 with a level 0 ED will be considered level 20, but will be able to steamroll any level 20 content because of his gear (this is not a major concern tho)


However I love the fact that you could swap ED to be able to lower your level to run with friends. Yet this won't work eternally since, as previously mentioned, you'll cap all destinies one day or another.

Edit: Best solution for me would be to completly remove penalty. It's only 5 levels, so shouldn't be a big deal, and would avoid the worst issue (the one where people with a high ED level take an xp penalty while they are still leveling their character level).

As Nivarch stated, this will penalize people who TR. Wasn't it stated in Beta that the Destinies would not be penalizing TRs? Wasn't some of the concerns about TRing after unlocking and advancing Destinies then TRing was the inability to access the unlocked abilities?

If you are adding penalties for accessing Destinies and TRing, then you are backtracking from your original position. Either remove the penalties or allow TRs to access to all the unlocked abilities in the Destiny.

[THOTHdha]

Anyone who doesn't have the destinies should NOT be penalized for playing with those that do. Please avoid further segregation of the player base between the haves and have nots.


This does indeed seem obscenely unfair to the F2P or Premium who are still working on getting their EDs enabled. Having to buy / grind out the TP in order to advance your character isn't such a big deal. This is a business, after all, not a charity. But it won't take too long before all of the LFMs want 22-25 in this proposed system. Leaving anyone who does not have their Epic Destinies unable to join the majority of LFMs for the content that they have already purchased.

It was stated before that there would be no power leveling penalties for epic levels. What is the reasoning for changing this? You say that it is to provide flexibility, but originally we were told that level 20s and level 25s would be able to group together without issue. That seems a lot more flexible than this. It is kind of hard to think critically about this without understanding why there is this departure from what was already stated.

[Avidus]

I want to clear up something about how XP penalties work for epic levels.

For the purposes of determining whether there will be an XP penalty, we calculate a player's level this way:

# Heroic Levels + # Active Destiny Levels

(or 20 + active destiny level)This is very unintuative.
What about those that don't have ED's purchased? Will they be perma-capped at 20 as far as epic xp penalties go?
Will we be able to set lfm's for specific destiny levels?
Will we be able to inspect a character and see their ED level?
Will we see the active ED level when applying to an lfm or looking at those applying?


We do this to provide flexibility. This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24. In order for this 'level' 24 character to not take a penalty they have to run level 24+ content. This would be ok IF certain abilities in the ED's weren't tied to actual levels and if gear ML was calculated this was as well. As it is now a character that hits 20 and activates a level 4 destiny has to run level 24+ content without some of the abilities that supposedly make them level 24. Their gear would also not be able to be equipped as they are still level 20 and ML gear is calcualted by heroic level + epic level = character level needed to equip.


Conversely a level 25 player can switch to a new destiny and be considered level 20 for the purposes of XP penalties.This is nice, but what happens when all your unlocked destinies are tier 3? Also I really don't want to switch to an unsynergystic ED just to get into groups.

I think the best solution would be just to make all characters at levels 21 and higher count as 'epic' characters applying no penalties for xp'ing with any other 'epic' character while still applying the epic level + heroic level = character level appropriate penalty to heroic characters in the group. That way 21's can party with 25's at no penalty while also applying a penatly to any 17's that said character groups with.


We welcome feedback on this, especially the constructive kind. :)Hopefully the earlier part won't sound to negative but those are the questions that popped into my head when I read your post.

P.S.
Is anything being done with the epic timer(I'd like to see it removed or reduced to 2 hours)?
Or will we have a fixed number of quests(until a whole bunch more are released at a later date) we can run each day for epic xp before we need to run epic challenges?

[danotmano1998]

Is anything being done with the epic timer(I'd like to see it removed or reduced to 2 hours)??

When I ran both the closed and the open beta, timers on epics did not exist.
I was even able to recall out of an epic quest, and immediately go back in. (Did this just to test.)

[Violith]

I want to clear up something about how XP penalties work for epic levels.

For the purposes of determining whether there will be an XP penalty, we calculate a player's level this way:

# Heroic Levels + # Active Destiny Levels

(or 20 + active destiny level)

We do this to provide flexibility. This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24.

Conversely a level 25 player can switch to a new destiny and be considered level 20 for the purposes of XP penalties.

We welcome feedback on this, especially the constructive kind. :)

I was under the impression that character levels 21-25, and destiny teirs werent combined in anyway, apart from the exp gained from a quest went to both the destiny and character equally. so why base a penalty off of a destiny instead of just the character levels?

if you go heroic leve + epic level, then people could use their destinies (any tier that they wanted) based on their actual character level and thus make grouping with people easier and more fun. I for one would like to have a t5 destiny without causing anyone to take a hit to xp or getting a hit myself (by the proposed method I'd be lvl 25 when determining a penalty, Yet my character level would most likely be much lower since a destiny tier doesnt equal a full level).

It'd be better off as heroic levels + epic levels, Leave the destiny tiers out of it.

[Grace_ana]

It should be heroic levels + epic levels, and there should be NO xp hit when grouping with levels 20-25. Honestly, with the open beta changes, I'd swear Turbine is trying to kill grouping completely.

[Violith]

Also, according to reports from this thread: (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377241) Ranks are accounted for the xp penalty instead of actual level now, I hope that this isnt WAI, and merely a bug resulting from the proposed method of epic exp.

[MRMechMan]

It should be heroic levels + epic levels, and there should be NO xp hit when grouping with levels 20-25. Honestly, with the open beta changes, I'd swear Turbine is trying to kill grouping completely.

This.

Just make grouping with 20-25 no penalty at all.

[Avidus]

When I ran both the closed and the open beta, timers on epics did not exist.
I was even able to recall out of an epic quest, and immediately go back in. (Did this just to test.)
Thank you for paying attention to that. I completely missed it. I hope this is intended and stays this way.

[Nibor]

We do this to provide flexibility.

I just want to chime in and agree with the others here - the massive confusion this will cause is not worth the gain in flexibility. Epic character levels are already strange enough, but to all of a sudden make people need to look at epic destiny levels...it's really confusing.

Either treat everyone 20+ as 20, or make character level = character level. Neither is ideal, but they are better than the proposed system.

[CaptGrim]

I dont understand why at this point in the games life all 20+ are treated the same. I mean there are still repatition penalties right?

[Deadlock]

I want to clear up something about how XP penalties work for epic levels.

For the purposes of determining whether there will be an XP penalty, we calculate a player's level this way:

# Heroic Levels + # Active Destiny Levels

(or 20 + active destiny level)

We do this to provide flexibility. This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24.

Conversely a level 25 player can switch to a new destiny and be considered level 20 for the purposes of XP penalties.

We welcome feedback on this, especially the constructive kind. :)

This sounds like the sort of random decision that is floated in a meeting just so that everyone can disagree with it, and it's then withdawn as a highly visible act of "listening and taking your feedback onboard" that can later be referred to as the "see, we do listen to you" example.

Unless I'm really missing something, this has to be filed under "Unnecessarily Convoluted" and buried somewhere. KISS.

[Postumus]

If that is true, that is a terrible mechanic. Levels 20-25 should be able to group together without issue. There are several reasons. Content is limited at those levels. Those levels are the end game. I could go on, but I hope you (someone) gets the idea.

100% agree.

[MRMechMan]

This sounds like the sort of random decision that is floated in a meeting just so that everyone can disagree with it, and it's then withdawn as a highly visible act of "listening and taking your feedback onboard" that can later be referred to as the "see, we do listen to you" example.

Unless I'm really missing something, this has to be filed under "Unnecessarily Convoluted" and buried somewhere. KISS.

Yea....there is no way an idea this bad hits live. Your explanation sort of makes sense.

On the other hand I would not be suprised if it DID hit live, either.

[danotmano1998]

Quick update:

Leveling up XP not being able to be banked is a bug, confirmed by dev. Check the thread, too lazy to copy/paste.

[voodoogroves]

I'm pretty dense and need this explained more clearly.

Is this going to affect
- BB / streak
- level-based penalties
- over-level / power-leveling
etc.

Just one? Multiple? all?

[Sgt_Hart]

# Heroic Levels + # Active Destiny Levels

(or 20 + active destiny level)

We do this to provide flexibility. This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24.

Conversely a level 25 player can switch to a new destiny and be considered level 20 for the purposes of XP penalties.

We welcome feedback on this, especially the constructive kind. :)

Just to confirm.. that means that 1d5 epic levels will never be counted. While 1d6 EpiDes Level's will be?

I'm not sure I like the potentially bigger range one can choose to be in. Frankly.. I think it could make Pugging epic stuff ini say.. 3 month's a right bloody nightmare to work out the level of everyone in the group, and what destiny their on, and what level it is.

Intention: I approve of.

Suggestion for improvement: Track Epic levels, and Allow a player(Case by case basis)to trade in 10% of XP to be treated as a lower level. Or not 10%, figure out whatever the bonus amount is to run it at level Vs the hit they would give the group.

I.E. Tom(21 Ftr), ****(23 Clr) and Harry(24 Dvl) choose to run Quest X. It's 22 on selected difficulty, so Harry is a 2 level difference, **** is a 1. Let them choose to Take the XP hit PERSONALLY only, and spare the Tom(**** & Harry's choice)/****(Harry's choice) from it.

[MadFloyd]

Thanks for the feedback.

It's obviously clear that you prefer the simpler method so I will happily revert this change.

[CaptGrim]

Thanks for the feedback.

It's obviously clear that you prefer the simpler method so I will happily revert this change.

That good to hear.

But to clarify: If a lvl 25 toon ran a lvl 25 quest, with a fresh epic lvl 20 guy. No one would get an xp penalty correct?

So no power level penalties just over level penalties?

[Sgt_Hart]

Thanks for the feedback.

It's obviously clear that you prefer the simpler method so I will happily revert this change.

I love the intent. I'm just preemptively ****ing my pants at the notion of the drama when setting up epic level raids and People wanting their Max XP, and their "Good" EpiDes...

[Eladiun]

Is this calculated level going show on the LFM? Friends List? Guild List? Character?

If no you are going to have some angry people when they take a giant unexpected XP hit because of this phantom level.

[patang01]

Thanks for the feedback.

It's obviously clear that you prefer the simpler method so I will happily revert this change.

Good to hear; it's not like unlocking all those destinies and leveling for millions of XP is enough grind - having to get penalized just because you can't hard or elite everything makes for frustration.

[oradafu]

Thanks for the feedback.

It's obviously clear that you prefer the simpler method so I will happily revert this change.

Ok, you got me. What's the catch here? This was a pretty hasty retreat. So what exactly is "the simpler method" so everyone is on the same page now?

Because right now it feels alot like this:


This sounds like the sort of random decision that is floated in a meeting just so that everyone can disagree with it, and it's then withdawn as a highly visible act of "listening and taking your feedback onboard" that can later be referred to as the "see, we do listen to you" example.

Unless I'm really missing something, this has to be filed under "Unnecessarily Convoluted" and buried somewhere. KISS.

[hiryuu42]

I hope that's the case. The other explanation is they're throwing random ideas at the wall two weeks before release and hoping they magically won't be buggy messes.

[danotmano1998]

Thanks for the feedback.

It's obviously clear that you prefer the simpler method so I will happily revert this change.

Thank you ever so much. :)

[Grace_ana]

Uh, what just happened?

1. So how exactly will levels be calculated now?

2. Will there be xp penalties in grouping with 20-25, or not? (I vote not, for the record.)

[Aritukus]

We do this to provide flexibility. This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24.

Conversely a level 25 player can switch to a new destiny and be considered level 20 for the purposes of XP penalties.

So, if I understand this correctly, then if I have settled down to my fully leveled and perfected epic destiny that I always wanted for my build, I will be <forced> either to swap my currently active, perfected and long-wished (in some cases) epic destiny to one of those I havent even xped before <IF> I want to play with my friend who just say capped his toon to lvl 20 and is starting advancing forth, or I am <forced> to log my other character (who may have the same problem) or I <may> simply ignore him, if I am to respect his xp gain from epic quests. This was not here before and it is, sincerely, very bad mechanism.

I believe that some sort of XP penalty is in place, becouse fully advanced epic destiny is, as I understand, very powerful in, say, epic normal.

But in this certain situation (that I find myself often in), if im up to help a friend whos lvl (for purposes of XP penalty) is 21, I simply have to abandon epic destiny I want to play with my current character I want to help with if I am to respect his XP gain.

[danotmano1998]

Uh, what just happened?

1. So how exactly will levels be calculated now?

2. Will there be xp penalties in grouping with 20-25, or not? (I vote not, for the record.)

1. I *think* this means that heroic level + epic level = character level.

2. My *guess* would be yes, just like regular questing, but I strongly hope not.

At least with levels calculated not to include epic destinies, the division between level 20 always (no destinies) and level 20-25 (with destinies) vanishes and becomes a non issue. The way it was initially proposed, actually TAKING your destiny would become a level and XP liability. Now we can feel free to pursue whatever path of power we choose without negatively impacting our ability to group or get experience.

[MadFloyd]

Is this calculated level going show on the LFM? Friends List? Guild List? Character?

If no you are going to have some angry people when they take a giant unexpected XP hit because of this phantom level.

It would have show up in these places as additional value in parentheses.

[MadFloyd]

Ok, you got me. What's the catch here? This was a pretty hasty retreat. So what exactly is "the simpler method" so everyone is on the same page now?

Because right now it feels alot like this:

The simpler method is heroic level + epic level with the same XP penalties as on live servers today.

We save a lot of work by reverting the change. The intent was to provide more flexibility for players, example you're level 25 and now you start a new destiny. You're less powerful and would prefer to play lower level content; you can do so without penalties.

It was also the reason you can switch destinies as many times as you like.

That said, there are some complexities with this scheme - appropriate feedback everyone is one of them - and it's a big one. The other complexity is that some people (as pointed out here) may not have epic destinies (a scenario we sadly have to support). There are a couple other complexities that I won't get into, but suffice to say reverting this is much easier and unless all of you were going to really appreciate the new scheme (which you don't), it's simply not worth it.

And of course, there is a lot of value in 'KISS'.

[Synthetic]

The simpler method is heroic level + epic level with the same XP penalties as on live servers today.

We save a lot of work by reverting the change. The intent was to provide more flexibility for players, example you're level 25 and now you start a new destiny. You're less powerful and would prefer to play lower level content; you can do so without penalties.

It was also the reason you can switch destinies as many times as you like.

That said, there are some complexities with this scheme - appropriate feedback everyone is one of them - and it's a big one. The other complexity is that some people (as pointed out here) may not have epic destinies (a scenario we sadly have to support). There are a couple other complexities that I won't get into, but suffice to say reverting this is much easier and unless all of you were going to really appreciate the new scheme (which you don't), it's simply not worth it.

And of course, there is a lot of value in 'KISS'.

You had a small response to the idea 2 pages personally I liked it, but didn't respond because it seemed like a good solution to the xp curve vs using epic levels - which don't scale your character power level as much as a full destiny - and never expected such a heavy we don't like it response ( need to respond to the haunting thread to make sure my view vote is thrown in too after this)

I also suspect that most responses were thinking woohoo I can have someone else power level me through my epic destinies, which isn't really playing the game it's gaming the game.

[Synthetic]

It would have show up in these places as additional value in parentheses.

This covers the one scenario I was concerned about.

[sephiroth1084]

Will the character dead-out display what destiny people are in?

[Coldin]

The simpler method is heroic level + epic level with the same XP penalties as on live servers today.

We save a lot of work by reverting the change. The intent was to provide more flexibility for players, example you're level 25 and now you start a new destiny. You're less powerful and would prefer to play lower level content; you can do so without penalties.

It was also the reason you can switch destinies as many times as you like.

That said, there are some complexities with this scheme - appropriate feedback everyone is one of them - and it's a big one. The other complexity is that some people (as pointed out here) may not have epic destinies (a scenario we sadly have to support). There are a couple other complexities that I won't get into, but suffice to say reverting this is much easier and unless all of you were going to really appreciate the new scheme (which you don't), it's simply not worth it.

And of course, there is a lot of value in 'KISS'.

I guess I get that. Though...this still hasn't addressed my other concern about repetition penalties for xp. With both solutions, we'll still have to deal with increasing penalties every time we run a quest.

[bigolbear]

Constructive feedback.

This is a good change for the folowing reason:
It allows lvl 20 to 25 characters to run with lvlv 16+ heroic characters, this enables people to continue their freindly 'raid nights' and allows every one to gain some xp.

What should be done to encourage this:
Swithching destinies should not have a timer and the plat cost should be minimal (or none).

Eventualy players will fill out their destinies: under these circumstances there needs to be an option to switch to a 'null destiny'.

[THOTHdha]

The simpler method is heroic level + epic level with the same XP penalties as on live servers today.

We save a lot of work by reverting the change. The intent was to provide more flexibility for players, example you're level 25 and now you start a new destiny. You're less powerful and would prefer to play lower level content; you can do so without penalties.


If that is the intent, then why not stick with what we were told before and not incude any penalties for level 25s grouping with level 21s?

The idea of raising the level cap by 5 in a game with such heavy penalties for being 5 levels away from other players is absolutely ridiculous.

[Ovrad]

If that is the intent, then why not stick with what we were told before and not incude any penalties for level 25s grouping with level 21s?

The idea of raising the level cap by 5 in a game with such heavy penalties for being 5 levels away from other players is absolutely ridiculous.

Yeah why not simply cap the effective level to 20 for xp purposes? It would allow anyone in level 20+ to play together without huge penalties, and prevent the 'locking yourself out of xp by leveling too high'. As far as I know, most of the new quests are only in the low 20 so there is little incentive to level all the way to 25 if you want to put some xp in destinies.

I thought it was the initial idea anyway...

[Auran82]

I guess I get that. Though...this still hasn't addressed my other concern about repetition penalties for xp. With both solutions, we'll still have to deal with increasing penalties every time we run a quest.

That is a major concern for me, as it is, we are expected (well, not exactly expected, but its been touted as a major 'awesome feature') to level multiple destinies but after more than maybe 2, it might end up more like trying to level a TR by running through quests you are already over-leveled and at hefty repetition penalties for.

It's sorta the problem that comes hand in hand with having 2 separate, yet concurrent leveling systems in place that serve no purpose other than to give the people who haven't purchased epic destinies somewhere for that xp to go. I know there is more at work here, with extra feats, skill points etc, but essentially they have separated the base system (levels) with the enhancements (Epic Destinies).

If we could have an 'active' destiny and a 'training' destiny (where the xp you get is funneled into) it wouldn't really be an issue, but it's not the case. Hell, once all this goes live we are going to have situations where level 25 characters are going to need to swap into their already capped healing/tanking epic destinies in order to fulfill a role in a difficuly quest/raid and essentially forgo any experience while others might still be able to have a destiny active that isn't capped. If we get to a point where any experience is at a premium (due to repetitions, first time bonuses etc, why disadvantage these people?

[Auran82]

Yeah why not simply cap the effective level to 20 for xp purposes? It would allow anyone in level 20+ to play together without huge penalties, and prevent the 'locking yourself out of xp by leveling too high'. As far as I know, most of the new quests are only in the low 20 so there is little incentive to level all the way to 25 if you want to put some xp in destinies.

I thought it was the initial idea anyway...

If holding xp works as it does now, where you can sit at 18 while actually having enough xp to take 20, I can see alot of people sitting at level 23 so they don't outlevel the content or other people too much. But isn't this just kinda dumb? You would have the cap at 25, but you are essentially actively discouraging people from taking those levels, the extra feat/stat point/skill points are nice and all, but we have lasted long enough without them already.

[Thordarr]

IMO, the best solution would be to give the XP penalty a decay function.

From the Devs point of view, I guess there needs to be some form of farming penalty to avoid a situation where players find the 'most optimal quest' and farm that exclusively a bazilion times.
From the players point of view, given there are so many Destinies, there should be enough decent XP to keep plodding through them without being forced to TR or run challenges back to back.

If something like the current 'repeated run' penalty remains in place this would solve the first problem. As it is rumored the current epic timers are going, I suggest a timer that removes 1 off the repeat counter every 24 hrs (subject to change, some may say 3 days).

This gives deminishing returns for excessive farming, but gradually restores the XP potential out there as players move around the conent.

Thoughts?

[noinfo]

Thanks for the feedback.

It's obviously clear that you prefer the simpler method so I will happily revert this change.

While some may be less epic than others with a 5 level range total why not just let them all group together and forget powerleveling for it.

[arkonas]

i do prefer the simple method when it comes to the xp hits. 20+ the epic level. instead of trying to figure out the destiny on everyone. at least we will know how to setup our lfms like we always have if it stays the way it normally is

[voodoogroves]

The simpler method is heroic level + epic level with the same XP penalties as on live servers today.

We save a lot of work by reverting the change. The intent was to provide more flexibility for players, example you're level 25 and now you start a new destiny. You're less powerful and would prefer to play lower level content; you can do so without penalties.

It was also the reason you can switch destinies as many times as you like.

That said, there are some complexities with this scheme - appropriate feedback everyone is one of them - and it's a big one. The other complexity is that some people (as pointed out here) may not have epic destinies (a scenario we sadly have to support). There are a couple other complexities that I won't get into, but suffice to say reverting this is much easier and unless all of you were going to really appreciate the new scheme (which you don't), it's simply not worth it.

And of course, there is a lot of value in 'KISS'.

Please apply this to haunting and hard to kill ... KISS

[Krell]

The simpler method is heroic level + epic level with the same XP penalties as on live servers today.

We save a lot of work by reverting the change. The intent was to provide more flexibility for players, example you're level 25 and now you start a new destiny. You're less powerful and would prefer to play lower level content; you can do so without penalties.

It was also the reason you can switch destinies as many times as you like.

That said, there are some complexities with this scheme - appropriate feedback everyone is one of them - and it's a big one. The other complexity is that some people (as pointed out here) may not have epic destinies (a scenario we sadly have to support). There are a couple other complexities that I won't get into, but suffice to say reverting this is much easier and unless all of you were going to really appreciate the new scheme (which you don't), it's simply not worth it.

And of course, there is a lot of value in 'KISS'.

Maybe count epic levels as half a level in the XP range calculation, which would mean 19-25's could group without power leveling penalties. The over dungeon level penalty would still be there.

Alternatively, .66 would mean 20-25's could group.

[patang01]

The simpler method is heroic level + epic level with the same XP penalties as on live servers today.

We save a lot of work by reverting the change. The intent was to provide more flexibility for players, example you're level 25 and now you start a new destiny. You're less powerful and would prefer to play lower level content; you can do so without penalties.

It was also the reason you can switch destinies as many times as you like.

That said, there are some complexities with this scheme - appropriate feedback everyone is one of them - and it's a big one. The other complexity is that some people (as pointed out here) may not have epic destinies (a scenario we sadly have to support). There are a couple other complexities that I won't get into, but suffice to say reverting this is much easier and unless all of you were going to really appreciate the new scheme (which you don't), it's simply not worth it.

And of course, there is a lot of value in 'KISS'.

So the one thing I didn't want - you're penalized for soloing normal because you happen to run Epic. Lets face it - you have 2 different type of things going on here - regular leveling 21-25 with this odd choice of difficulty levels spanning not only 1 or 2 levels but many including something like level 19 on casual. so that means that if I hit 25 but still want to level destinies I'm going to constantly have to get hit with xp penalties because I'm not grouping with people running hard or elite.

That's just telling me that IF I want to be able to level more than one destiny I better NEVER take anything above level 22 until I'm completely done. What you've created is a invisible level cap for anyone without a guild running everything all the time. Awesome.

Here's a simple idea - make all casual level 21, normal level 23, hard 24 and elite 25. If I want to run everything on normal i incur the most minial XP penalty even as 25 and If I want to run on casual I get a little more. If I group on elite or hard I never incur a XP penalty.

Honestly; if I have to grind this much penalized XP simply because you're creating 2 complicated systems of levelling with a limited amount of quests and where you had to make Epic casual and normal because otherwise no one would be able to solo it; I assume you're not going to find that many play that often past a point. This is like TR treading water. Constantly swimming against the stream because you dont have to fortunate good group to run with. This is what creates frustration amongst players who WANT to play these quests.

[redspecter23]

The reverted method is simpler and preferred due to the confusion that would ensue when trying to put a group together with the original method. My only concern with using epic levels + heroic levels is the MASSIVE incentive to hold at 22 as long as possible and never level past 23. Not only to maximize the xp you receive, but to minimize the hit to other players in the group.

The game would allow you to go up to 25 but when you do so, you cut yourself out of leveling groups. Let's face it. With so many destinies and people wanting as many as possible, who would want to cut themselves out of xp. In heroic levels, you're never forced into hard or elite, just to keep penalties away. Sure you could level to 24 and 25 and solo, but the easiest to solo content, especially for newer players is level 21. Staying at 23 gives you the most options while leaving you with a minimal 10% penalty for easy to solo experience.

So, the original proposed method, while it was wretched as far as grouping was concerned, at least addressed this problem.

As others have mentioned, you could remove the powerleveling penalty and allow 20-25 to freely group together, but that still doesn't solve the problem that once you get high enough, you NEED to run hard and elite epics to receive unpenalized xp. Again, the original proposal at least partially solved this problem by allowing you to adjust your "level" on the fly. I get why you wanted to go that way, because if you can get around the "putting groups together issue" and the fact that it's so convoluted, it does work.

I'd say for starters adjust some of the level ranges on new epic quests so that normal ranges from 20 - 24 perhaps depending on the quest, with hard and elite scaling up as appropriate. In addition, remove the powerleveling penalty while in epic quests. Anyone 20+ gets full xp regardless of the level split as long as you're in epic. While not the most elegant solution, it does solve the two main issues at hand. The need to hold 23 almost forever and the ability to put groups together more easily by removing power leveling at epic level.

[Krell]

The reverted method is simpler and preferred due to the confusion that would ensue when trying to put a group together with the original method. My only concern with using epic levels + heroic levels is the MASSIVE incentive to hold at 22 as long as possible and never level past 23. Not only to maximize the xp you receive, but to minimize the hit to other players in the group.

The game would allow you to go up to 25 but when you do so, you cut yourself out of leveling groups. Let's face it. With so many destinies and people wanting as many as possible, who would want to cut themselves out of xp. In heroic levels, you're never forced into hard or elite, just to keep penalties away. Sure you could level to 24 and 25 and solo, but the easiest to solo content, especially for newer players is level 21. Staying at 23 gives you the most options while leaving you with a minimal 10% penalty for easy to solo experience.

So, the original proposed method, while it was wretched as far as grouping was concerned, at least addressed this problem.

As others have mentioned, you could remove the powerleveling penalty and allow 20-25 to freely group together, but that still doesn't solve the problem that once you get high enough, you NEED to run hard and elite epics to receive unpenalized xp. Again, the original proposal at least partially solved this problem by allowing you to adjust your "level" on the fly. I get why you wanted to go that way, because if you can get around the "putting groups together issue" and the fact that it's so convoluted, it does work.

I'd say for starters adjust some of the level ranges on new epic quests so that normal ranges from 20 - 24 perhaps depending on the quest, with hard and elite scaling up as appropriate. In addition, remove the powerleveling penalty while in epic quests. Anyone 20+ gets full xp regardless of the level split as long as you're in epic. While not the most elegant solution, it does solve the two main issues at hand. The need to hold 23 almost forever and the ability to put groups together more easily by removing power leveling at epic level.

I agree, remove the powerleveling and overlevel penalties for anyone 20+.

[DeadRabbat]

Though not pertaining to XP scaling.... I ran through a lvl 20 challenge Dragons Horde to make boots. On live at lvl 20 i was getting 130+ armor fragments at level, but as a 20/5epic character now..it went down to 20.
So much for getting those boots today.

[Atremus]

There should be zero XP penalty for Levels 21-25. Having a penalty will discourage grouping and raiding for anyone that is less than L22 due to the XP penalty

[voodoogroves]

Is there an official word on how existing "epics" are going to be handled, now that there is no longer an "epic", just levels?

Will Snitch be level 21 on normal? etc.

[terrenceknight1]

Having an xp penalty for epic levels seems like a bad idea given the dev's intent for players to level up multiple destinies. By the time you have 2 Epic destinies capped you should be 24-25ish Epic. So thats -really- going to cut down the number of available quests to run without getting the xp penalty if you don't want to run epic hard/elite.

[danotmano1998]

Levels 20-25 characters should be able to group together without experience penalties.

Since we're on the same page regarding K.I.S.S., and since it's already been promised that this will be the case, can we continue this and just remove 20-25 xp penalties from the game entirely?

Then I think we will have a system that will be not only very simple, but very well received as well.

[Full_Bleed]

Allowing power leveling is never a good thing to have in an MMO. DDO has a fair system in place to discourage it. As is, without Destinies counting towards your level there is a defacto power-leveling option built in without penalty... putting epic 21-25 on top of that without the traditional restrictions would just compound the issue.

At the end of the day, people will take their 24th and 25th levels for the same reasons they used to take their 19th and 20th. If what's available at 24-25 lacks incentive or content that demands it, then they should incentivize it... not open the whole power-leveling can of worms so that people can further trivialize post 20 advancement.

[Ovrad]

At the end of the day, people will take their 24th and 25th levels for the same reasons they used to take their 19th and 20th.

I disagree. On live, people take 20 because once they reach it, there is NO reason not to, as in they no longer gain any xp. An xp hit for lv 20 on live is meaningless as it doesn't affect you. With the new system, you still need xp for destinies, even if you reach lv 25, so the xp penalties actually hurt you a lot.

This would be a moot point if there was a lot of lv 23-25 quests, but the new quests seem to be mostly 20-22 (Which is understandable as they can't make an infinite number of new quests in this new range of levels). So maybe they can put the penalties back once we get more epic quests, but for now, the penalties are a huge roadblock that needs to either be removed or lessened because they make taking lvl 24-25 more harmful than beneficial.

EDIT: Don't forget those that didn't buy epic destinies as well, they (like in the old system) have no incentive to hold lv 25 once they reach it, because they no longer need any xp. However, they will be rejected from groups as they will kill the xp gains of those that are trying to fill their destinies.

[danotmano1998]

EDIT: Don't forget those that didn't buy epic destinies as well, they (like in the old system) have no incentive to hold lv 25 once they reach it, because they no longer need any xp. However, they will be rejected from groups as they will kill the xp gains of those that are trying to fill their destinies.

This is one of my biggest concerns as well.
Opening lvls 21-25 or even 20-25 in terms of XP advancement just encourages grouping, alleviates some of the concern that there isn't enough end content to get all your destinies unlocked, and further reduces any divsion between all the players.

I haven't seen a really solid argument yet as to how keeping XP penalties at those levels is any kind beneficial idea.

[THOTHdha]

At the end of the day, people will take their 24th and 25th levels for the same reasons they used to take their 19th and 20th. If what's available at 24-25 lacks incentive or content that demands it, then they should incentivize it... not open the whole power-leveling can of worms so that people can further trivialize post 20 advancement.

Except that people generally do not take level 20 until there is no reason not to. They remain at level 18 until they are capped on XP, because there is often very little advantage gained at level 19. Once they hit 20 there is no more XP to be gained and so there is no longer any reason not to take it. Under the new system they will likely hold at either level 23 or 24 until they have finished leveling their Epic Destinies, depending on how badly they want that Epic Feat for their build. There is very little reason to take 25, although that may change as we see more of the top shelf items.

The claim that power leveling is bad is not one that should be ignored. But exploiting the system in order to keep from being very heavily penalized is not really a good state for a game to be in either.

[Ranncore]

Except that people generally do not take level 20 until there is no reason not to. They remain at level 18 until they are capped on XP, because there is often very little advantage gained at level 19. Once they hit 20 there is no more XP to be gained and so there is no longer any reason not to take it. Under the new system they will likely hold at either level 23 or 24 until they have finished leveling their Epic Destinies, depending on how badly they want that Epic Feat for their build. There is very little reason to take 25, although that may change as we see more of the top shelf items.

The claim that power leveling is bad is not one that should be ignored. But exploiting the system in order to keep from being very heavily penalized is not really a good state for a game to be in either.

dude, get a hold of me :) what server are you on?

[Systern]

How about keeping Epic levels and Epic XP as the original design?

A separate, independent system that heroic content isn't aware of? Putting players in the position where they're penalized for not Paying Turbine for the new content is bad. Under the old paradigm, If you didn't want to buy U11, that's fine. The game didn't change and you continued on at cap doing what you've done and you're happy. Maybe you're inclined to get it because some of your friends had and you want to play the new experience with them. Under this new paradigm, You're increasing cap, extending all the drawbacks, but not giving any of the benefits unless Turbine gets paid. Ummm... No. Bad! Don't do that.

Originally we were told that the powerlevelling penalty wouldn't apply to Epic levels because the power discrepancy between a Level 25 with a single Tier 5 Destiny Tree is greater than a Level 25 with 5 tier 1s, or a TR that has destinies already, and balancing all those permutations was impossible. We were also told that Epic levels and Destinies have no effect in heroic content; they shut off. So you're saying that If I'm level 25, with a maxxed out destiny, I get no benefit during the Guild Raid of ToD, but I'm still penalizing the level 18 because it knows I'm level 25?

How about doing away with XP Penalties? It's not like there's so much content available that you do not repeat the quests you enjoy. This could also loosen design restrictions on quest design. Abandon the concept of "balanced party" that is the measuring stick, and make more Monastaries and Claw of Vulkoors for those that want a sandbox for roguely stealth skills. The design philosophy that everyone should be able to do everything in the game is flawed. You want an immersive game world, but in the world we know, you can't do everything. Remove the restriction that you have to do everything because you're penalized for repeating the things you enjoy. And if some powergaming 54th life TR prefers to run Information is Key at 1300 xp in 1 minute and 13 seconds a bazillion times, who cares? Bravery Bonus, as much as I dislike the overall effect of polarization, is good that it incentivizes diversity, instead of penalizing doing what you enjoy repeatedly. a TR team has gotten their 3rd+ life TRs from 1 to 20 in just over 15 hours. 15 Hours! Yes, they're the exceptional, elite team, and not indicative of baseline play, but if Streak can enable that, why is the penalty still in place?

XP Repetition Penalties are also counter intuitive to most of the game's design where you're farming and grinding for gear. You must repeat this X times to get the thing you want, but you're getting less and less out of it every time you do. Drawing a parallel, you want a raise at work, but every day you show up, your salary decreases until you get it. How long before you find a new job?

Less Stick, More Carrot. This is a game, after all.

[Cyr]

That said, there are some complexities with this scheme - appropriate feedback everyone is one of them - and it's a big one. The other complexity is that some people (as pointed out here) may not have epic destinies (a scenario we sadly have to support). There are a couple other complexities that I won't get into, but suffice to say reverting this is much easier and unless all of you were going to really appreciate the new scheme (which you don't), it's simply not worth it.


Yeah, which you guys put in with the ham fisted destiny design for epic level advancement.

That is the cause it should be the route that you seek to rectify what will still be a messy and unfun process which is the aquisition of epic destiny lines beyond the first.

The problem, simply put, is that epic destiny lines need to be leveled, need to be slotted to level, and you can not slot more then one destiny line at a time.

So you are a level 25 toon and you want to be more powerful so you slot for your build a horribly gimped destiny line at tier 1 to get more fate points. Your level 25 toon is now gimp sauce compared to another level 25 toon with their proper fully ranked destiny slotted. Really it is the same idea in reverse of the bad proposal early floated.

Solution to this messy situation...


Allow destiny lines to be slotted for leveling purposes only. These you would gain XP from, but your other destiny line would be the one that you gained actually benefits from.

[Ovrad]

Here's an idea:

In heroic quests : Keep all xp penalties, so that a lv 25 can't plow someone through a lv 18 quest or something.
In epic quests: Remove xp penalties. Only 20+ can enter them anyway right?

KISS!

[Rumbaar]

Wow less than 1 page of feedback [who doesn't set their page view to 100?] and you reverted it or changed direction.

That would indicate it wasn't intended to be put into place, in the first place. You've had greater responses to greater changes and it's been 300+ responses and still no change. I find it strange such a change was proposed and reverted so quickly.

[Morlen]

The simpler method is heroic level + epic level with the same XP penalties as on live servers today.

We save a lot of work by reverting the change. The intent was to provide more flexibility for players, example you're level 25 and now you start a new destiny. You're less powerful and would prefer to play lower level content; you can do so without penalties.

It was also the reason you can switch destinies as many times as you like.

That said, there are some complexities with this scheme - appropriate feedback everyone is one of them - and it's a big one. The other complexity is that some people (as pointed out here) may not have epic destinies (a scenario we sadly have to support). There are a couple other complexities that I won't get into, but suffice to say reverting this is much easier and unless all of you were going to really appreciate the new scheme (which you don't), it's simply not worth it.

And of course, there is a lot of value in 'KISS'.

So there are still going be be (effective) levels 21-25? I think this is what most people are concerned about... Once you are level 20, you want to be able to group with everyone in an epic. If you are a level 20 just starting a new destiny, you can't join an epic group with someone who is (effectively) level 25 without taking a power level penalty?

Just looking for clarification.

[artistx]

Just wanted to point out Exalted Angel lvls are not granting caster lvls as a 18/2 cleric/monk my spell durations are still 18 minutes at Exalted Angel 5

[SisAmethyst]

So there are still going be be (effective) levels 21-25? I think this is what most people are concerned about... Once you are level 20, you want to be able to group with everyone in an epic. If you are a level 20 just starting a new destiny, you can't join an epic group with someone who is (effectively) level 25 without taking a power level penalty?

Just looking for clarification.

I read it like that and somehow I dislike that a level 20 can't effectively play together with a level 25 one, even if both start with a fresh Destiny :(

I further agree with Rumbaar that it is bizarre that it was dropped like a hot potato after less then 50 answers, with the most likely issue that the original design wasn't understood or compared to the other option.
Doesn't liking something not necessarily mean the other option is the better option. If you just want a yes-no answer without discussion we can just do it with a poll...

Also MadFloyd, you put several things in one spot. The formule itself is probably not the issue:


# Heroic Levels + # Active Destiny Levels (or 20 + active destiny level)

But this:


This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24.

In other words that you just got back to level 20 and being assumed as 24 with a Destiny that you probably can't even use at that level due to certain restrictions.

... but maybe I miss something ...

[terrenceknight1]

I for one am not at all looking forward to over level penalties+ repeat penalties as I work through the different epic destinies to earn fate points. Being level 24-25 running the available Level 20-23 quests (I solo alot so epic normal only) doesn't sound like a fun time to me.

Also a minor suggestion of setting up a separate epic tab in the adventure compendium instead of tacking on the 21+ quests on the normal quest list then putting all quests with epic availability in that tab with their epic level showing. As it stands I don't know what level the Stormreach epics are unless I run up to them and click on the quest.

[Shinjiteru]

Ok... I didn't reply to this thread earlier because at first sight I didn't like the change and everyone else seemed to have the same opinion.
But after doing some challenges and leveling up my ED in the first 1-2 levels and getting my first epic level I don't think the current and simpler version is really better.
Compared to my monk on the live server it didn't feel like a big improvement when getting my first epic feat, but this might be caused by improved martial arts feat still not working properly?
But my first 2 levels in my ED boosted me much more. Without having EDs it feels unfair beeing penalized for having 1-2 epic levels, especiall when the EDs have a much greater impact on the strenght of a character/toon.

Some people were saying using ED levels would cut out people who didn't buy ED... ED aren't that expensive and I am sure every player who likes endgame content is going to buy ED anyways. So the only people without ED will be very new players, they get cut out of LFMs anyways... most leveling groups are 'TR only/prefered', 'be awesome', 'know the quest', 'be your own healer', 'no noobs' and what much more.
Why would these people take someone in their group who hasn't EDs if they can fill the group with people who have EDs who are much stronger compared to people without them?
And why would you spend TP on the new quests without buying EDs first?

All the new items in the new quests aren't that powerfull that they will be more important than EDs. Especially the new red dragon scale robe with minlvl 24 seems to be weaker for some classes than the old one which can be used with lvl 20 already.

I see that using ED levels would be more complicated for grouping and knowing who is at which level. But although using plain epic levels might make this easier it is an unfair rating of the characters strenght.
Do we really stick to an unfair system only because it's easier?

I would suggest don't raise the character level at all for quest penalties and so on, since I prefer to have no rating than a rating which is unfair/wrong. A character with 1 epic level and 2-3 levels in his ED is much stronger than the rated lvl 21 and a level 25 is with no ED is much weaker than the rated lvl 25, especially compared to a toon with lvl 24 and a maxed out ED who is only treated as beeing lvl 24...

And yeah, if you say ED are optional a character with 1 epic level is weaker than a character with 5 epic levels. But you have to scale the dungeon with ED is mind anyways, because most people are going to have EDs and they have a much greater impact on character strenght than the epic levels.
So if the dungeons are scaled with EDs in mind the characters level should be rated with EDs in mind too. ;)

[MrkGrismer]

And yeah, if you say ED are optional a character with 1 epic level is weaker than a character with 5 epic levels. But you have to scale the dungeon with ED is mind anyways, because most people are going to have EDs and they have a much greater impact on character strenght than the epic levels.
So if the dungeons are scaled with EDs in mind the characters level should be rated with EDs in mind too. ;)

The problem is that a TR that makes it back to level 20 can turn on his 5th level ED, but not actually be able to use all the abilities because many are level gated. So using HeroicLevel + EDlevel would not be a good representation.

The best solution, IMO is to not have any penalties for epic level quests, or to modify the penalities such that only level 26 characters have problems grouping with level 20s (so nobody has problems until the level cap goes up yet again).

[Feralthyrtiaq]

I mean it IS new...

We can't get anything new without getting a load of stupid S(stuff) with it...

Just DROP the penalties and let us ALL get along....

[Shinjiteru]

The problem is that a TR that makes it back to level 20 can turn on his 5th level ED, but not actually be able to use all the abilities because many are level gated. So using HeroicLevel + EDlevel would not be a good representation.

The best solution, IMO is to not have any penalties for epic level quests, or to modify the penalities such that only level 26 characters have problems grouping with level 20s (so nobody has problems until the level cap goes up yet again).

That's not true anymore, all tier 6 ED enhancements only require level 20 atm on lammania. So a level 20 TRed monk would have instant access to all tiers of his ED and it's ridiculous to rate him as level 20 for xp penalties if someone who just started his ED and has one epic level is rated one level higher.

I don't think the EDs should require any level above 20 anyways. You need to level up your EDs to get the enhancements, why should there be any other (epic) level requirements be included/needed? Only for TRing purposes? Seems Turbine thought this too and changed it.


But yeah... I still think either stop raising character level beyond 20 or use the EDs, but using epic levels is not a valid character level rating atm.

[CaptGrim]

The problem is that a TR that makes it back to level 20 can turn on his 5th level ED, but not actually be able to use all the abilities because many are level gated. So using HeroicLevel + EDlevel would not be a good representation.

The best solution, IMO is to not have any penalties for epic level quests, or to modify the penalities such that only level 26 characters have problems grouping with level 20s (so nobody has problems until the level cap goes up yet again).

+1 to this i was just about to post somthing very similar. Change the power level thing to 5 lvls in epic and we are g2g.

[Voldomar]

05/05/2012:

1) There won't be any penalties for level 20's playing with level 25's if that's what you're asking.

I hope this is still accurate

[Shinjiteru]

That doesn't solve the problem that epic levels still raise your character levels for comparing your character level to the quest level.

Especially for challanges this would benefit players who make a toon only to farm challanges, never take any epic levels and max out their ED(s).
A level 20 with maxed out EDs could easily farm challanges at quest level rating of 25+ although beeing rated as beeing level 20 and getting a huge amount of bonus mats.

Don't forget, all EDs enhancements lost level requirements which were higher than 20.

Epic levels should in no way be the only way to rate your character level. Epic levels have less of an impact on the strenght of the character than levels of EDs and the equipment which requires 4 epic lvls isn't raising your characters scores/abilities much compared to current geared out toon. The new gear only gives +2 stats compared to the current items if you managed to get a hand on +7 stat items. (insightful +3 shouldn't stack with insightful +2)

First epic level might be the strongest because you also get an epic feat. As a monk you would probably take improved martial arts, that's +1[W] +1 BAB and +10HP. First Level of ED can be 1,5[W] + 1 spell resistance, +10 max ki and a new ranged attack.
Would say the ED is stronger, but might depend.
The second epic level only gives +10 HP and +1 Saves. Second Level of ED gives +6% double strike in wind stance and raises your movement speed by 30% (not stacking with haste), if you want to put your APs there...
Think no one could say the epic level would be at least half as good as the level of the ED and you need less xp for the levels of your ED although they make you stronger than the epic levels which need much more xp...

Would say the whole system is not balanced out, but whatever... think this shows good enough that rating a characters level by his epic levels is not a good idea.

But yeah, I prefer to stop character level rating beyond lvl 20 as long as there is no reasonable rating possible. And using epic levels is not a reasonable character level rating.
And with the changes to the ED requirements using levels of ED to determine character level would be better if you want/need something like that beyond lvl 20.
Just make it so you can't switch your ED inside the quest and there would be less problems and a balanced character level rating beyond 20.

[Auran82]

Quest levels above 20 should all be considered 20 for purposes of working out xp penalty, the level should just be used to determine difficulty (to give people an idea of which are harder etc) and loot. Over level penalties and power levelling should only look at heroic levels.

[MrkGrismer]

That's not true anymore, all tier 6 ED enhancements only require level 20 atm on lammania. So a level 20 TRed monk would have instant access to all tiers of his ED and it's ridiculous to rate him as level 20 for xp penalties if someone who just started his ED and has one epic level is rated one level higher.

I don't think the EDs should require any level above 20 anyways. You need to level up your EDs to get the enhancements, why should there be any other (epic) level requirements be included/needed? Only for TRing purposes? Seems Turbine thought this too and changed it.

But yeah... I still think either stop raising character level beyond 20 or use the EDs, but using epic levels is not a valid character level rating atm.

I missed that change, and even tho I so far haven't TR'd I like that they did that as I could see that as a major disadvantage for TRs.

In which case I would have been fine with the HL+EDL formula they abandoned so quickly, but I do think the better idea is to just increase the powerlevel gap to 5 instead of 4, thus making it only a concern for level 20s with level 26s, and making it a non-issue until the next level cap raise.

Alternately, it could be based on the quest level only, so if the party has somebody too high of a level to get xp from the quest then nobody gets xp from the quest, otherwise the highest level character just asks as an 'xp cap' for the quest.

The power leveling penalty makes sense for heroic level stuff, and for keeping sub-20 out of epic stuff, but it shouldn't penalize level 20s who want to play with their 25th level friends.

[Furbitor]

Thanks for the feedback.

It's obviously clear that you prefer the simpler method so I will happily revert this change.

Hmm. I hope its soon. As of last night, I confirmed its still working like this:

My guildy and I was running Unquiet Graves, I was on my lvl 21 monk ED 1 and he was on a lvl 20 with ED 0 caster. Both of us for the first time. quest exp was like 1600 for both of us on epic normal. Extremely frustrated, we started again. This time I brought a lvl 20 arti with ED 0, NOW, We getting 35k exp!

Don't penalize us for power-leveling when we aren't!

[whereispowderedsilve]

Hmm. I hope its soon. As of last night, I confirmed its still working like this:

My guildy and I was running Unquiet Graves, I was on my lvl 21 monk ED 1 and he was on a lvl 20 with ED 0 caster. Both of us for the first time. quest exp was like 1600 for both of us on epic normal. Extremely frustrated, we started again. This time I brought a lvl 20 arti with ED 0, NOW, We getting 35k exp!

Don't penalize us for power-leveling when we aren't!

Requoted. Hoping for a Dev response to this(since impacts all players).

Keep up the great work! Expansion next week HOLLA! :P! :)! Lolz! xD!

[THOTHdha]

I see that using ED levels would be more complicated for grouping and knowing who is at which level. But although using plain epic levels might make this easier it is an unfair rating of the characters strenght.
Do we really stick to an unfair system only because it's easier?

This is kind of an issue with how the question was presented. In this thread we were asked "Would you like this scenario, where Epic Destiny levels are used for character's post 20 level?", call it option C.

People responded "No, that does not sound good!". Many of them said that remembering this, option B:
05/05/2012: Originally Posted by MadFloyd
1) There won't be any penalties for level 20's playing with level 25's if that's what you're asking.

So it was then changed to "Alright then, everyone will just use their epic class levels to go from 21-25." Option A.

And people responded "Hey, wait a minute.... A long time ago you said that wasn't going to happen! There was a big discussion about it, and the players made strong arguments about why that would be a bad thing, given the large level cap increase. You said that all Epic characters would be able to group together without penalty. That is what we thought we were choosing over option C!"

I think that people would generally rather have ED levels count instead of the generic character levels for epic progression. But even more than that option, I think that they would like to simply have all epic level characters be 'epic' and not impose level based penalties on the epic content. I am rather confused as to why this was promised, and then retracted without any discussion.

[MrkGrismer]

This is kind of an issue with how the question was presented. In this thread we were asked "Would you like this scenario, where Epic Destiny levels are used for character's post 20 level?", call it option C.

People responded "No, that does not sound good!". Many of them said that remembering this, option B:
05/05/2012: Originally Posted by MadFloyd
1) There won't be any penalties for level 20's playing with level 25's if that's what you're asking.

So it was then changed to "Alright then, everyone will just use their epic class levels to go from 21-25." Option A.

And people responded "Hey, wait a minute.... A long time ago you said that wasn't going to happen! There was a big discussion about it, and the players made strong arguments about why that would be a bad thing, given the large level cap increase. You said that all Epic characters would be able to group together without penalty. That is what we thought we were choosing over option C!"

I think that people would generally rather have ED levels count instead of the generic character levels for epic progression. But even more than that option, I think that they would like to simply have all epic level characters be 'epic' and not impose level based penalties on the epic content. I am rather confused as to why this was promised, and then retracted without any discussion.

You mean, something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4TVRPvFGt0

[Morlen]

05/05/2012:


I hope this is still accurate

Thanks, I missed that somewhere. ^_^