Forcing others to play the game the way you want them to

[Alternative]

So as of now, everyone can pretty much play the game the way they want.

If you made an arcane/divine caster and want to blast through with ints kills - you can.

If you want to play with full party with a tank and everyone having some assigned role - you can also.

If you want to get a group of melees and run epics without a caster or healer - yup, you can.

Apparently, at one point devs realised letting everyone play the game the way they want would be a good idea, and thus the epic ward was removed. So why change your mind and bring it back now? Did you forget how A LOT of people hated playing buff bots and disco bots?

[Forzah]

So as of now, everyone can pretty much play the game the way they want.

If you made an arcane/divine caster and want to blast through with ints kills - you can.

If you want to play with full party with a tank and everyone having some assigned role - you can also.

If you want to get a group of melees and run epics without a caster or healer - yup, you can.

Apparently, at one point devs realised letting everyone play the game the way they want would be a good idea, and thus the epic ward was removed. So why change your mind and bring it back now? Did you forget how A LOT of people hated playing buff bots and disco bots?

You can still do any quest with any group composition, even with these changes. It's just went from complete easy mode to a little bit harder. What makes you think otherwise?

[Shade]

There are absolutely no changes to Epic as it exists now on live except to change its named to Epic Normal and make it easier by removing epic ward entirely, removing the timer and lockouts.

Epic hard and epic elite do not exist in live.

Complaining about things getting "nerfed" on beta, that simply do not exist on live is silly. It's beta!

Rule 1 of beta: Expect change.

So no, your op is not accurate:
To do everything you do now on live - It wont change except to be easier.

And the new content, on the modes your are used to, is very easy and doable by every type of group you mentioned.

To run the NEW difficulties they are adding to game? Yea ofcourse they should be harder. It wouldnt make sense for them not to be.

[Grace_ana]

There are absolutely no changes to Epic as it exists now on live except to change its named to Epic Normal and make it easier by removing epic ward entirely, removing the timer and lockouts.

Epic hard and epic elite do not exist in live.

Complaining about things getting "nerfed" on beta, that simply do not exist on live is silly. It's beta!

Rule 1 of beta: Expect change.

So no, your op is not accurate:
To do everything you do now on live - It wont change except to be easier.

And the new content, on the modes your are used to, is very easy and doable by every type of group you mentioned.

To run the NEW difficulties they are adding to game? Yea ofcourse they should be harder. It wouldnt make sense for them not to be.

This would be incorrect if what I have read is right. What I have read is that current epic levels are equivalent to epic hard. And death ward doesn't make it "harder" - it makes it more boring for almost every single player in the game. That's the issue.

[MeliCat]

Luke you've nicely summed up what a guildie was saying today pretty much :/

[Shade]

This would be incorrect if what I have read is right. What I have read is that current epic levels are equivalent to epic hard. And death ward doesn't make it "harder" - it makes it more boring for almost every single player in the game. That's the issue.

Well what you "read" was incorrect.

I unlike the massses of DOOM sayers actuall went in and tested this tonight. It's as I say.

Epic normal gives 100% full favor, loot, regardless, etc as what epic on live does. It infact shows up as "epic" in the compendium as well. Difficulty wise it is very slightly easier, but yea everything is easier in the expansion on a global scale. Heroic difficultlies too. It's mostly due to the overall mass gamewide changes.

Yes its true originally some developers thought to set current epic as "epic hard" but its beta - everythings subject to change.

And your opinion of whats hard doesnt make any logical sense.

Pressing 1 button and having all the monsters aroind you drop dead isnt particularly hard. Preventing that is thus harder. Simple logic.

Is it harder in the way that you want? Perhaps, perhaps not, but its a new setting and a very different game. It's time to try something different for a change if you want to step to teh challenge of these new settings. And allowing insta kills, but only after some damage is dealt is certainly different.

If you dont want to step up to the challenge of these new settings?

Then dont. Continue doing what your doing on epic normal. I don't see why having an "option" is forcing your hand at all. The default remains normal, you are not forced to do hard or elite.

[Grace_ana]

Well what you "read" was incorrect.

I unlike the massses of DOOM sayers actuall went in and tested this tonight. It's as I say.

Epic normal gives 100% full favor, loot, regardless, etc as what epic on live does. It infact shows up as "epic" in the compendium as well. Difficulty wise it is very slightly easier, but yea everything is easier in the expansion on a global scale. Heroic difficultlies too. It's mostly due to the overall mass gamewide changes.

Yes its true originally some developers thought to set current epic as "epic hard" but its beta - everythings subject to change.

And your opinion of whats hard doesnt make any logical sense.

Pressing 1 button and having all the monsters aroind you drop dead isnt particularly hard. Preventing that is thus harder. Simple logic.

Is it harder in the way that you want? Perhaps, perhaps not, but its a new setting and a very different game. It's time to try something different for a change if you want to step to teh challenge of these new settings. And allowing insta kills, but only after some damage is dealt is certainly different.

If you dont want to step up to the challenge of these new settings?

Then dont. Continue doing what your doing on epic normal. I don't see why having an "option" is forcing your hand at all. The default remains normal, you are not forced to do hard or elite.

You clearly did not understand what I said.

Yes, epic normal "counts" as epic. What I am saying is that epic hard, difficulty-wise, approximates current epic difficulty. Given what I have read from people that have tested it on the current beta, it is not as you say. In fact, if anything, they are saying current epic hard is easier than current epic.

You are also completely missing the point. Our complaints have nothing to do with us not wanting a challenge; in fact, it is the opposite. We do not want to have key abilities and gameplay shut out of the challenge of epic hard and elite. Death ward doesn't make it harder, it makes it stupid. Forcing casters to be your holdbots and rogues to be your trapsmiths is not "harder" or "fun" for anyone but a small subset of players.

[Tid12]

You clearly did not understand what I said.

Yes, epic normal "counts" as epic. What I am saying is that epic hard, difficulty-wise, approximates current epic difficulty. Given what I have read from people that have tested it on the current beta, it is not as you say. In fact, if anything, they are saying current epic hard is easier than current epic.

You are also completely missing the point. Our complaints have nothing to do with us not wanting a challenge; in fact, it is the opposite. We do not want to have key abilities and gameplay shut out of the challenge of epic hard and elite. Death ward doesn't make it harder, it makes it stupid. Forcing casters to be your holdbots and rogues to be your trapsmiths is not "harder" or "fun" for anyone but a small subset of players.

You haven't understood what HE said.

Epic normal on beta = Slighty easier epic on live now. We tested it, we didn't read it from other people, we didn't ask to the other people, we didn't ask to the developers. Again, WE TESTED THEM personally in the closed beta.

Epic ward is just on epic HARD and ELITE. Like you are saying, you don't want a challenge, you want to keep running the easier epics on normal. And there you go: you have Epic NORMAL on beta.

Have you a gun pointed to your head that is making you run content YOU DON'T WANT TO run? I don't think so.

Stop this doom.



PS: Epic ward will be changed, don't worry. Trust my words.

[Shade]

What I am saying is that epic hard, difficulty-wise, approximates current epic difficulty.

I fully understood that. and am informing you its false.

Epic hard is harder then "epic" (normal) on live.

I tested several runs of existing quests im extremely familiar with to verify this fact.

If you have not, why are you argueing.

And my caster certainly was not a "hold bot".. He ramained the top of the killcount as he always has and always will be. I dont really ever cast holds much at all, tho I do have the spell as it is a nice and fun spell to cast.

I think your just so used to faceroll zerging quests with insta kills youve lost track of the dozens of other ultra powerful spells casters have at their disposals.

We also ran some CR30 challenges (which like the epics have deathblock). The wizard in our party got a LOT of insta kills. He just happened to not be a face-roll mash the wail of teh banshee key player, and was smart enough to use alternate spells: EG: Trap the soul. Which worked great there because there CRs are not that high. I saw piles and piles of soulgems all over the floor heh.

Casters, along with clrs and fvs remain the best and most important class in challenges, and epic hard and elite. To think otherwise is just silly.

The difference is that classes which lack insta kills actulaly got to have a bit of fun too, instead of being relagated to being useless until the orange/red named shows up.

[Forzah]

The difference is that classes which lack insta kills actulaly got to have a bit of fun too, instead of being relagated to being useless until the orange/red named shows up.

This is exactly what I had hoped for, awesome!

[Grace_ana]

You haven't understood what HE said.

Epic normal on beta = Slighty easier epic on live now. We tested it, we didn't read it from other people, we didn't ask to the other people, we didn't ask to the developers. Again, WE TESTED THEM personally in the closed beta.

Epic ward is just on epic HARD and ELITE. Like you are saying, you don't want a challenge, you want to keep running the easier epics on normal. And there you go: you have Epic NORMAL on beta.

Have you a gun pointed to your head that is making you run content YOU DON'T WANT TO run? I don't think so.

Stop this doom.



PS: Epic ward will be changed, don't worry. Trust my words.


I fully understood that. and am informing you its false.

Epic hard is harder then epic normal on live.

I tested several runs of existing quests im extremely familiar with to verify this fact.

If you have not, why are you argueing.

And my caster certainly was not a "hold bot".. He ramained the top of the killcount as he always has and always will be. I dont really ever cast holds much at all, tho I do have the spell as it is a nice and fun spell to cast.

I think your just so used to faceroll zerging quests with insta kills youve lost track of the dozens of other ultra powerful spells casters have at their disposals.

We also ran some CR30 challenges (which like the epics have deathblock). The wizard in our party got a LOT of insta kills. He just happened to not be a face-roll mash the wail of teh banshee key player, and was smart enough to use alternate spells: EG: Trap the soul. Which worked great there because there CRs are not that high. I saw piles and piles of soulgems all over the floor heh.

Casters, along with clrs and fvs remain the best and most important class in challenges, and epic hard and elite. To think otherwise is just silly.

The difference is that classes which lack insta kills actulaly got to have a bit of fun too, instead of being relagated to being useless until the orange/red named shows up.

This is the kind of stupid stuff I am so tired of hearing.

1. So your response is, "Don't trust what other people are saying, trust us!" And btw, I've been in the closed beta since day one and played some of the content. I haven't gotten on the open beta yet, but what others are saying jives with exactly my experiences.

2. I play an assassin rogue at cap, for the most part, along with a monk. I also have a cleric recently at cap. Do you really think I've been zerg steamrolling epic content on an assassin rogue? You obviously don't play one. I don't even have am arcane caster at cap, because I don't really like to play them. So these changes hurt the classes I play, along with others.

3. We're all well aware that something like this is what Shade has been asking for a long time. We are also well aware that most people disagree with Shade's interpretation of the purpose of casters.

4. If you weren't having fun with casters and their instakills, don't blame the casters. Funny, but even with casters in my group I managed to get plenty of kills on my rogue and monk. We managed to work together just fine. We used tactics when appropriate. Your failure to do so does not mean the rest of us that have done so should get nerfed. Maybe you can learn something about gameplay from those that have been working happily in harmony using the skills of ALL the classes in challenging epic play.

5. This isn't doom. This is a set of extremely valid concerns that you are dismissing because you simply don't care about the gameplay experiences of others. All in the name of team play, of course.

[bartosy]

epic ward was a good thing. like above poster says as a 3rd life sorc im sick and tired of feeling useless untill we arive at the big boss.. while everyone wails and fingers and destruction/implosion away.

I know its annoying for wizards who got top of the hill supereasy instakill power and mass holds but it seriously was time for a change, you have to realise this yourself also if you dont go play a sorc.

this has nothing to do with forcing others to play the game they want and has everything to do with making the game more enjoyable for everyone not just for a select few classes and pre's to hog up all the fun for the rest of the crowd.

Allons enfants de la Patrie,
le jour de gloire est arrivé!


VIVA LA RESISTANCE !

[Tid12]

This is the kind of stupid stuff I am so tired of hearing.

1. So your response is, "Don't trust what other people are saying, trust us!" And btw, I've been in the closed beta since day one and played some of the content. I haven't gotten on the open beta yet, but what others are saying jives with exactly my experiences.


So you have been in the closed beta but you keep saying that you READ stuff. Then now you say you have tested them. Go figure.



2. I play an assassin rogue at cap, for the most part, along with a monk. I also have a cleric recently at cap. Do you really think I've been zerg steamrolling epic content on an assassin rogue? You obviously don't play one. I don't even have am arcane caster at cap, because I don't really like to play them. So these changes hurt the classes I play, along with others.


I play one and if, instead of making assumption, you would have checked my previous posts, you would have seen my suggestion to give rogues and monks the ability to bypass this ward and to get rid of the Hard to Kill ward and cap wail/circle to 4-5 mobs and add 15 secs to their CD. But of course you didn't. :rolleyes:



3. We're all well aware that something like this is what Shade has been asking for a long time. We are also well aware that most people disagree with Shade's interpretation of the purpose of casters.


I play a caster and I don't care about what shade says. Sometimes our opinions are similar, sometimes they are not. If you have something against Shade, talk to him, don't quote me when you are saying these things.



4. If you weren't having fun with casters and their instakills, don't blame the casters. Funny, but even with casters in my group I managed to get plenty of kills on my rogue and monk. We managed to work together just fine. We used tactics when appropriate. Your failure to do so does not mean the rest of us that have done so should get nerfed. Maybe you can learn something about gameplay from those that have been working happily in harmony using the skills of ALL the classes in challenging epic play.


When did I blame the casters? How is it making assumptions about everything? Check the answer to the n°2 and you will see.



5. This isn't doom. This is a set of extremely valid concerns that you are dismissing because you simply don't care about the gameplay experiences of others. All in the name of team play, of course.


This a doom. If you would care about team play, you'd be good with these changes if you were a wizard. Assuming I don't care about the experiences of others is just that, an assumption.

Love when people read your mind and assume everything :D

[Shade]

3. We're all well aware that something like this is what Shade has been asking for a long time. We are also well aware that most people disagree with Shade's interpretation of the purpose of casters.

I'm glad to have you as a fan, really I am. I like that you research and keep track of my suggestions, please research my post history more. You may have missed this one?:

Date:
03-18-2011:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=307339

As you can see, I don't see this being what I asked for. I asked for a dispellable ward. And overall for things to a ton harder then they actaully have become heh.

Or should I show you my achievement posts where I posted the highest necromancy DC of any caster at the time? Yes there was a time when insta kills were my thing too. Perhaps ive changed, a change for the better? you decide.

Keep being "well aware", I appreciate the support.

Remember to subscribe and like/fav my youtube vids :)

[Full_Bleed]

The difference is that classes which lack insta kills actulaly got to have a bit of fun too, instead of being relagated to being useless until the orange/red named shows up.

It is amazing that a few classes (PM's in particular) have managed to dominate this discussion across tons of threads... distorting the heck out of what the devs are doing and the direction that the game it going.

Heaven forbid one class isn't the insta kill god it was in a couple *selectable* difficulty settings in the game. Heaven forbid some other characters get to participate a little more through a portion of a kill. Heaven forbid the hardest settings in the game not be easily soloable. And heaven forbid that intelligent CC actually be a part of the game when the alternative was oneshots and mass kills up to the boss.

This idea of "forcing people to play one way" is silly and narrow minded. The devs are "DEVELOPERS." D&D is a game of ROLES (who put the "role" in "roleplaying"?) The notion that a class or two and a few abilities should so dominate the game as to marginalize all of the alternatives isn't good game design... it's a situation that a good game designer will seek to correct.

That's what's going on with this Update. Nothing more or less.

[Jitty]

as a 3rd life sorc im sick and tired of feeling useless untill we arive at the big boss

What????

[Shade]

It is amazing that a few classes (PM's in particular) have managed to dominate this discussion across tons of threads... distorting the heck out of what the devs are doing and the direction that the game it going.


Might be the vast majority of people who used to play non-insta kill classes eventually just gave up after the U5/U9 game-breaking changes and swapped to insta kill classes or quit the game. So thats all thats left to complain on the forums heh.

I know I certainly did.

Not sure why im back, but I think it came down to the fact ultimately the game is fun because of the community and the players we play with, and ultimately they havent changed even if the game has.

These new difficulty settings will be great in the long run to strengthen that community and create more diverse builds and playstyles to take up the challenge as a team, rather then as a 1-6 man zerg team of insta killers who make no attempt to enjoy the cross-class aspects of this game.

[Kirlian]

We had a discussion about that ward in a guild last night. Thing is there is no 'ward' on epic normal, as a consequence it is player friendly, hard and elite are where this is being implemented. Therefore it is advisable for new players not to run higher setting quests. ;) Especially those who lvl from 8 to 16 in one blink of an eye and all they have to support the group is power6 and greater potency 4 scepters.

Being serious, Devs said some time a go that this will happen, that hard and elite epic will be like old days epics :). I don't mind that change. I die anyway, 2 sec of lag and boom, doom, bah, gone...

[Algulcz]

This a doom. If you would care about team play, you'd be good with these changes if you were a wizard. Assuming I don't care about the experiences of others is just that, an assumption.

I care about team play and I'm not good with these changes. I don't even play PM but enchantment speced AM. And I still thing that this change is horrible.
And Epic Normal is not even close to Epic on Live. Epic Hard is approximate of current Epic and current Epic does not have epic wards. Not since last year or so.

[Tid12]

I care about team play and I'm not good with these changes. I don't even play PM but enchantment speced AM. And I still thing that this change is horrible.
And Epic Normal is not even close to Epic on Live. Epic Hard is approximate of current Epic and current Epic does not have epic wards. Not since last year or so.

Then whats wrong about: Wiz cc, party beats on 3-4-5-10 mobs, they will be at 50%, wiz wails, party kills the remaining 1-2-5 mobs?

I don't see anything wrong, everyone is contribuiting and noones is left behind. This is what happens today on live with necro casters.

[anto_capone]

Its too bad the narcissistic people call all the shots in this game.

[Algulcz]

Then whats wrong about: Wiz cc, party beats on 3-4-5-10 mobs, they will be at 50%, wiz wails, party kills the remaining 1-2-5 mobs?

I don't see anything wrong, everyone is contribuiting and noones is left behind. This is what happens today on live with necro casters.

That is only your experience. I personally never experienced PM just wailing everything.
Right now I have the option to CC large group of mobs and finger archer or caster that is little behind them. If group gets swarmed I have the option to wail and get few of them. All of that is lost with this change.

[Tid12]

That is only your experience. I personally never experienced PM just wailing everything.
Right now I have the option to CC large group of mobs and finger archer or caster that is little behind them. If group gets swarmed I have the option to wail and get few of them. All of that is lost with this change.

My only experience? Lol.

You should check the general forums and the spell casters forum. They are FULL of people claiming wizards and necro arcanes in general are OP. And in game everyone agrees with that.

Also, why would you wail "if the group gets swarmed" ? Why don't you wail right away? Why letting the group take additional damage?

[Palantyr]

Its too bad the narcissistic people call all the shots in this game.

I think this is the truest statement regarding the direction of the game's design I've ever read in this forum.

[Algulcz]

My only experience? Lol.

You should check the general forums and the spell casters forum. They are FULL of people claiming wizards and necro arcanes in general are OP. And in game everyone agrees with that.

Also, why would you wail "if the group gets swarmed" ? Why don't you wail right away? Why letting the group take additional damage?

Those who are unhappy are usually the loudest. Lots of people are complaining, but that does not mean that majority agree. And when they complain, they usually pick the most uber casters. How many of them do you know? I did arcane DC survey a while back. Only very small % of casters are that uber.

Why should I wail right away? I "hold" them right away. That is what I do. I am CC bot, and I like the play style. Necro is secondary for me.

[Ebonta]

its too bad the narcissistic people call all the shots in this game.

+1.

[Tid12]

Those who are unhappy are usually the loudest. Lots of people are complaining, but that does not mean that majority agree. And when they complain, they usually pick the most uber casters. How many of them do you know? I did arcane DC survey a while back. Only very small % of casters are that uber.

Why should I wail right away? I "hold" them right away. That is what I do. I am CC bot, and I like the play style. Necro is secondary for me.

Thats the point! You can still hold them right away and when they are at 50% you can also wail to clear them faster! See? Noone is unhappy! Noone feels left behind like now, noone gets hurt.

Keep in mind that My suggestion is another (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377147) to stop the Necro Kings. This ward is bad specially for rogues, monks and divine casters. They aren't OP.

[Algulcz]

Thats the point! You can still hold them right away and when they are at 50% you can also wail to clear them faster! See? Noone is unhappy! Noone feels left behind like now, noone gets hurt.

Keep in mind that My suggestion is another (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377147) to stop the Necro Kings. This ward is bad specially for rogues, monks and divine casters. They aren't OP.

No, I am unhappy. Because I no longer HAVE the option to wail right away. If the Necro Kings are really that OP as you think they are, then there are better ways to deal with it. Blanked immunity until some other condition is met is not right way to go.

[Tid12]

No, I am unhappy. Because I no longer HAVE the option to wail right away. If the Necro Kings are really that OP as you think they are, then there are better ways to deal with it. Blanked immunity until some other condition is met is not right way to go.

You can't wail right away but you can still do it when the mobs have 50% health.

I can be sure of one thing: Noone wants blanket immunities and my suggestion is a proof that I don't like the ward.

We all asked to dispellable ward or to cap wail, not for this. However, it's already something.


PS: I'm sure they will change this in the next release notes.

[kailiea]

Well what you "read" was incorrect.

I unlike the massses of DOOM sayers actuall went in and tested this tonight. It's as I say.

Epic normal gives 100% full favor, loot, regardless, etc as what epic on live does. It infact shows up as "epic" in the compendium as well. Difficulty wise it is very slightly easier, but yea everything is easier in the expansion on a global scale. Heroic difficultlies too. It's mostly due to the overall mass gamewide changes.

Yes its true originally some developers thought to set current epic as "epic hard" but its beta - everythings subject to change.

And your opinion of whats hard doesnt make any logical sense.

Pressing 1 button and having all the monsters aroind you drop dead isnt particularly hard. Preventing that is thus harder. Simple logic.

Is it harder in the way that you want? Perhaps, perhaps not, but its a new setting and a very different game. It's time to try something different for a change if you want to step to teh challenge of these new settings. And allowing insta kills, but only after some damage is dealt is certainly different.

If you dont want to step up to the challenge of these new settings?

Then dont. Continue doing what your doing on epic normal. I don't see why having an "option" is forcing your hand at all. The default remains normal, you are not forced to do hard or elite.


It is sort or like when barbarians push one button and large groups of mobs die.....cough supreme cleave cough

[Forzah]

It is sort or like when barbarians push one button and large groups of mobs die.....cough supreme cleave cough

Haven't you heard they are nerfing supreme cleave too? :p

[kailiea]

Haven't you heard they are nerfing supreme cleave too? :p

You would think that but my guild mate was hitting 4500+ damage on his his supreme cleave......

[Miow]

You can't wail right away but you can still do it when the mobs have 50% health.

I can be sure of one thing: Noone wants blanket immunities and my suggestion is a proof that I don't like the ward.

We all asked to dispellable ward or to cap wail, not for this. However, it's already something.


PS: I'm sure they will change this in the next release notes.

I think it would be a better pill to swallow if say it were 75% health on hard and 50% on elite?

[Voldomar]

Complaining about things getting "nerfed" on beta, that simply do not exist on live is silly. It's beta!

Rule 1 of beta: Expect change.



Can I repost this in the "Supreme Cleave change" and Fury of the wild threads?

Cause apparently no one is supposed to express their concerns unless it's about something that you care. In that case you can go on, and on, and on....

[Forzah]

You would think that but my guild mate was hitting 4500+ damage on his his supreme cleave......

Holy ****. Buffing melee a bit is ok, but this seems way too much.

[Tid12]

I think it would be a better pill to swallow if say it were 75% health on hard and 50% on elite?

For me, 50 or 75% wouldn't change much. People is complaining that they can't kill 20 pack of mobs as soon as they encounter them.

I made a suggestion in a thread somewhere. I don't like this, but it's not that bad as people claim.

I wanted Wail nerfed, not rogues, divines, casters, monks and everyone else.

[voodoogroves]

Hard to kill doesn't make the quests harder, it limits practical options. If hard to kill was a +10 saves vs magic on hard or +20 on elite someone could still build for it.

All the old epic ward / hard to kill does is mean that fewer and fewer strategies and build styles work.




Shade is absolutely right in that something needed to happen. Hard to Kill, however, doesn't achieve "balance".

[sweez]

Being serious, Devs said some time a go that this will happen, that hard and elite epic will be like old days epics :).

Link please :)

[sweez]

This a doom. If you would care about team play, you'd be good with these changes if you were a wizard. Assuming I don't care about the experiences of others is just that, an assumption.

I see that a lot of people here are again making the mistake of equating two different words, 'teamwork' and 'enabling'. Pre-U9 epics weren't about teamwork, they were all about enabling.

[sweez]

Its too bad the narcissistic people call all the shots in this game.

I don't mind narcissistic, I do find it sad though that relics of a sovereign past like *ahem* some are being allowed to get carried out of quests when they should drop upon exiting adventure :p

The game should be moving forward, or hey, staying as it is, not moving backwards. But eh, it is what it is, people will either adapt or leave, the one constant being that bluebars will *still* contribute more than barbs hehe.

[Voldomar]

I wanted Wail nerfed, not rogues, divines, casters, monks and everyone else.

And I want melee buffed. See the difference? I'm not ******* in your cheerios

Because I know that 5 min after this goes live, the same people who now support "hard to kill" are going to cry because casters "steal" their kills and use Fod on a mob that's at 2% hp left.

I don't know why someone who is complaining right now should be happy to know that he will have to scratch a mob before a caster ( a well geared and build one, mind you, not every fresh, out of the boat, arcane ) can deal with it in the blink of an eye. Is there any sense of accomplishment in this? Won't they complain again after "hard to kill" is in place?
They will. Because "Hard to kill does not accomplish anything. It put even more emphasis on one of the most hated side effect of instakills: kill stealing; it actually encourages this kind of behavior.

[GreatOwl]

You know what the real problem is? That the majority of people, ESPECIALLY the people on the forums (5-10% of the player population let's not forget!) tend to focus, discuss, and take as base the uber players out there.

Sure necro arcanes with 43-45 DC are OP on live today, sure they kill every one mod around them at the press of a button and trivialize content (and are totally unfun to play with) but how many such toons are there?
Personally I've never met one in two years of playing this game. Certainly my own wiz (necro AM) isn't gonna be that uber even on his next life (his 3rd). More than likely, given the abundance of draw population in the exp, I'm even gonna have problems with SR in addition to DCs even on normal WITHOUT the stupid new guard.
[Am I the only one who, despite liking web myself, think it's ridiculous that the best CC spell for lvl20+ content is a lvl2 spell??]

You guys are so self-referential that's laughable. Certainly the average 39-40 necro Dc guy out there was not ruining anyone's game by ATTEMPTING to finger an archer on a ledge or a caster at the far end of a mob. But you don't play with Average Joe, you only play withing your little circle of uber friends, so you wouldn't have the faintest idea.

Hard to Kill was really just a waste of developers time sprung from the complains of a little circle of players. I take issue at that more than anything.

[SSFWEl]

There are absolutely no changes to Epic as it exists now on live except to change its named to Epic Normal and make it easier by removing epic ward entirely, removing the timer and lockouts.

Epic hard and epic elite do not exist in live.

Complaining about things getting "nerfed" on beta, that simply do not exist on live is silly. It's beta!

To run the NEW difficulties they are adding to game? Yea ofcourse they should be harder. It wouldnt make sense for them not to be.

It seems to me you have no idea what Assassins, at least, are having trouble with. Or how the assassinate mechanic works.
The closest analogy, to help you understand how we feel, that I can think of, and would an Assassin whom also plays Barb fix it, is this:

Lets give all mobs over CR20 an AutoRageDebuff. Every time someone whom is Raged hits a CR20, his rage gets removed.
Or maybe:
Give all mobs over CR20 something called AggroWard. You cannot damage the mob unless you are not agroed.

In these cases, who would want to go Barb? No rage? Can't agro?

Well that's how I feel.
Making something harder by removing my capability? NO!

[Kindrson]

[QUOTE=Shade;4507839] And overall for things to a ton harder then they actaully have become heh.

QUOTE]

you know shade, instead of always trying to make the game harder for everyone else to play, why dont you try, just for once, to make the game easier, through you VAST EXPERIENCE BY HELPING others to be as UBER as you so we can enjoy the game too instead of having to respec and reroll every 6 months to make you happy

[Rizzyn]

There are absolutely no changes to Epic as it exists now on live except to change its named to Epic Normal and make it easier by removing epic ward entirely, removing the timer and lockouts.

Epic hard and epic elite do not exist in live.

Complaining about things getting "nerfed" on beta, that simply do not exist on live is silly. It's beta!

Rule 1 of beta: Expect change.

So no, your op is not accurate:
To do everything you do now on live - It wont change except to be easier.

And the new content, on the modes your are used to, is very easy and doable by every type of group you mentioned.

To run the NEW difficulties they are adding to game? Yea ofcourse they should be harder. It wouldnt make sense for them not to be.

I have to stand with Shade on this.

I played a 1st Level 21 Rogue Assassin; Finesse Build; High INT for the Assassinate DC, which I got to 40, and with some gear swapping can push a bit higher. I was not high enough in the Epic Destiny Shadowdancer for it to be a large factor when I encountered Hard to Kill mobs. Also, scaling based on party composition seems to affect the appearance of this, though it did seem to be in quests.

It was harder, absolutely, but not an insurmountable challenge. I do not play alone, typically I am with a tanky Paladin, who at the time was getting some early benefit out of Unyielding Sentinel. Landing an assassinate is obviously more difficult, in larger parties this was made easier with level draining effects, etc. In a duo, I caused enough damage swiftly enough to land Manslayer or Vorpal Strikes pretty consistently.

It IS challenging, as it it meant to be, but according the Devs that have posted in various threads, it's also being looked at for tweaking. It's not a Nerf, because it doesn't exist yet, and it's also not a Nerf because even if it goes live, it will only exist in certain scalable Epic content, and that is still an IF. But, bottom line, I play an Assassin, 1st Life, but fairly well geared. I'm OK.

[eris2323]

Shade could try my other suggestion - play blindfolded and with arms tied behind back.

He will get a challenge.

The rest of us can enjoy the game.

Why these super overpowered people with several thousand forum posts and 18 past lives are complaining about being overpowered is beyond me.

Well, it's not beyond me. I get it.

They think everyone has the time to throw away their real lives in favor of ddo, so they can be uber.

Removing the ability to use a core feature of a class is lazy programming. And yes; it's pandering to a very small minority of players on the forums.

[Paryan]

I'm not going to argue about the benefit of the new ward or not on harder difficulties, but there are posts in this thread arguing that the game is solely being made harder for Shade. There are posts all over the forums that the game is too easy, the game is too hard, casters are OP, ESOS is OP, DEX based rangers are OP (ok....kidding on the last one....) The game is adding harder settings for people that want a harder challenge (might not be implemented in the best way but it does make for a different challenge) just as Epic casual was added for those who want to step into epics without being ready for normal or wanting that level of challenge Heroic casual was added for the same reason...the casual player. The old setting (Epic normal) still exists. It's a tad different but then so is the whole game with spell/AC changes as well.

Whatever level of ability/gear etc. you have, there's a level of play for that. It's unrealistic to believe you should be able to take on harder challenges without some adjustment to play style (I say this hoping for the mob DW cast option rather than 50% immunity myself, but whatever makes it to live is the form we adjust to.) The current play styles that worked in epics still do. Hard and elite are new additions to the systems and shouldn't necessarily be treated as the same thing we already have....because we don't have them.

One thing I love about this game is the flexibility it offers not only in character design but in difficulty. FWIW....I believe we should choose our level of play, not dictate to the devs what levels of play exist for the rest of the player base. I'll admit, I'm not the best player and excited about the epic casual setting, as I'm only beginning to get into epics (other than some of the easier ones....house P, LoD, etc.).

To argue that this game is only catering to one person takes focus of what the dev team has tried to do to accommodate all levels of play. Whether or not the 50% ward will go live or not/is the right or wrong course of action etc, remains to be seen...The point is, harder settings were added, easier settings were added, and for the most part, what we had is still there as well.

[eris2323]

Yeah, for the most part, except that Pale masters, who spec for necro, get bonuses to it, are forced to use feats on it... just can't use any of those in the new epic elites and hards.

How is that at all fair, and how does that make sense whatsoever?

It doesn't.

If you are removing this, I'd like the devs to remove sneak attack damage, rages and make all monsters immune to ALL spells until they are at 50%.

Then we can do all make stupid barbs and melee.

Or we can quit and go to another game that lets casters actually.. you know... be casters.

[Paryan]

Just to be clear, I wouldn't like to this this go live as it does negate the power of a spell/class of spells....Higher saves/better UI, Mass DW etc all make more sense....

That being said, there are plenty of cases where the game forces you to not use a primary ability and change tactics...Undead need to be dealt with a different way for PM's...Red names have blanket immunities to stat damage, LV 4 spell shields on Sully, a mob immune to the lines of elemental damage a caster spec'd for...Not everyone's primary focus should work in 100% of content.

Many of these limitations are dealt with complementing efforts by other players, or using other spells, weapons etc. Just as some melees may need someone to use destruction weapons on Malicia (sp?) or turn off power attack to be able to hit her in EBT, in these new Epic settings, PM's will need to adjust playstyle and use other spells to hold/damage, let others damage then wail/finger etc.).

Now I may be wrong on this next bit and please correct me if I am....This only applies to mobs over CR 20....is the ward still in place if a mob over 20 is neg leveled to below that? If not, this is an additional viable tactic to try. We should need to adjust playstyle for certain situations....this change should not just give all mobs a free pass (as if they were undead etc.) in this case, but something had to be done/added to create a higher level of challenge....More HP mobs that still always die instantly by a finger/wail (except on a 1) aren't any different from a 1hp mob that does. Not saying this was the right change to make, but a change needs to be made at some level of difficulty....

[danotmano1998]

I think that the mechanic "Hard To Kill" is a poor solution to a problem that already has an answer.

Multiple possible answers, even.

Raise the monster DC, Spell Resistance, CR, Resistances, etc..
Mix and match monsters in encounters
Make monsters smarter with AI, new weapons, new attacks, etc..
Make instant death spells hit for a % of monster health in harder difficulties.

Most importantly, class skills, special attacks like assasinate, etc.. Should be viable in any difficulty on ANY trash (non-boss/immune) monster. Maybe it'll be tough to land reliably ? Sure. Immune? No. Just No.


is the ward still in place if a mob over 20 is neg leveled to below that?
Yes. And the ward blocks any death spell damages (WAIL, FOD), not just the killing part. And as it stands now, (bug) it isn't able to be removed at all in some places.

[Paryan]

I think that the mechanic "Hard To Kill" is a poor solution to a problem that already has an answer.

Multiple possible answers, even.

Raise the monster DC, Spell Resistance, CR, Resistances, etc..
Mix and match monsters in encounters
Make monsters smarter with AI, new weapons, new attacks, etc..
Make instant death spells hit for a % of monster health in harder difficulties.

Most importantly, class skills, special attacks like assasinate, etc.. Should be viable in any difficulty on ANY trash (non-boss/immune) monster. Maybe it'll be tough to land reliably ? Sure. Immune? No. Just No.


Yes. And the ward blocks any death spell damages (WAIL, FOD), not just the killing part. And as it stands now, (bug) it isn't able to be removed at all in some places.

I agree with all you've said here. Lots of good examples to raise difficulty on trash. Especially really like the %of monster health....Wail and FoD do neg damage already on a save....Would (somewhat ) of a compromise be allowing the 50% instakill ward, but allow these mobs to be susceptible to neg damage? For that last part (in answer to my question) it would seem that if the ward was supposed to apply to Mobs above a certain CR and we had ways to bring that down, ward should go away....just saying...;)

[Grace_ana]

I'm not going to argue about the benefit of the new ward or not on harder difficulties, but there are posts in this thread arguing that the game is solely being made harder for Shade. There are posts all over the forums that the game is too easy, the game is too hard, casters are OP, ESOS is OP, DEX based rangers are OP (ok....kidding on the last one....) The game is adding harder settings for people that want a harder challenge (might not be implemented in the best way but it does make for a different challenge) just as Epic casual was added for those who want to step into epics without being ready for normal or wanting that level of challenge Heroic casual was added for the same reason...the casual player. The old setting (Epic normal) still exists. It's a tad different but then so is the whole game with spell/AC changes as well.

Whatever level of ability/gear etc. you have, there's a level of play for that. It's unrealistic to believe you should be able to take on harder challenges without some adjustment to play style (I say this hoping for the mob DW cast option rather than 50% immunity myself, but whatever makes it to live is the form we adjust to.) The current play styles that worked in epics still do. Hard and elite are new additions to the systems and shouldn't necessarily be treated as the same thing we already have....because we don't have them.

One thing I love about this game is the flexibility it offers not only in character design but in difficulty. FWIW....I believe we should choose our level of play, not dictate to the devs what levels of play exist for the rest of the player base. I'll admit, I'm not the best player and excited about the epic casual setting, as I'm only beginning to get into epics (other than some of the easier ones....house P, LoD, etc.).

To argue that this game is only catering to one person takes focus of what the dev team has tried to do to accommodate all levels of play. Whether or not the 50% ward will go live or not/is the right or wrong course of action etc, remains to be seen...The point is, harder settings were added, easier settings were added, and for the most part, what we had is still there as well.

No. This doesn't make anything harder. What it does is remove key abilities from use, allowing only certain classes to "have fun." That's the opposite of team play and "fun." And it isn't any harder, as many have already said.

If you want to make it harder, you improve the AI. You mix mobs. You randomize attacks, traps, mazes, etc. All of these have been suggested in the other thread, and they are the best suggestions. They allow for everyone in the group to help each other and strategize. Most importantly, they don't shut out character builds.

[deahamlet]

I think that the mechanic "Hard To Kill" is a poor solution to a problem that already has an answer.

Multiple possible answers, even.

Raise the monster DC, Spell Resistance, CR, Resistances, etc..
Mix and match monsters in encounters
Make monsters smarter with AI, new weapons, new attacks, etc..
Make instant death spells hit for a % of monster health in harder difficulties.

Most importantly, class skills, special attacks like assasinate, etc.. Should be viable in any difficulty on ANY trash (non-boss/immune) monster. Maybe it'll be tough to land reliably ? Sure. Immune? No. Just No.


+1000000000000000000000000
Fully agree.

[Paryan]

No. This doesn't make anything harder. What it does is remove key abilities from use, allowing only certain classes to "have fun." That's the opposite of team play and "fun." And it isn't any harder, as many have already said.

If you want to make it harder, you improve the AI. You mix mobs. You randomize attacks, traps, mazes, etc. All of these have been suggested in the other thread, and they are the best suggestions. They allow for everyone in the group to help each other and strategize. Most importantly, they don't shut out character builds.

In reading my other posts, you'll see I agree full on immunities for trash are a bad idea. That being said, key abilities are often removed in certain cases...What do you do as a PM in wizard king for instance? Again, that's against undead and it should be a change in tactics and again, I'm against the flat out immunity on all trash.

In regard to team play....Team play utilizes the teams strengths to win. This ward kind of does that by now needing to damage mobs before instakills. No more PM running through while everyone else pikes. Again, I'm not saying this is a good idea, but I am saying that it does give more characters more rolls to fill, and change the rolls of casters/divines a bit. Having your role changed from how you normally play can be taken as a sign of added difficultly...even if it sucks.

Edited: And I would argue that removing a character's key ability makes something harder for that character. Not a good idea, but it does make it harder.

[dubyprime]

So as of now, everyone can pretty much play the game the way they want.

If you made an arcane/divine caster and want to blast through with ints kills - you can.

If you want to play with full party with a tank and everyone having some assigned role - you can also.

If you want to get a group of melees and run epics without a caster or healer - yup, you can.

Apparently, at one point devs realised letting everyone play the game the way they want would be a good idea, and thus the epic ward was removed. So why change your mind and bring it back now? Did you forget how A LOT of people hated playing buff bots and disco bots?

I don't see how this has significantly changed.
If you have arcane/divines and want to blast through epic normal in 6 minutes you can.
If you want to take a balanced party and run epic elite in 30 minutes you can.
If you want to take no casters and run through epic norma/hard in 18 minutes you can.

The issue of concern is the droprates. Most likely the drop rates are not going to scale high enough to make epic elite/hard worth the additional time investment if the only concern is gear. If enjoyment is a concern then its worth it. It is a balancing act the devs will have to perform. To much scaling on the drop rates and you ostracize one play style, not enough and you ostracize another. The right scaling can encourage one style over another, but not take away the value of any play styles.


The DOOM scenario is if there is epic elite only drops. Like the elite/hard only drops in hound/vod. This will effectively force a play style in order to get the best gear. Even then it is not dissimilar to Epic LoB and certain challenges. So in then end epic hard/elite ward is just an extrapolation of current endgame content.

[deahamlet]

The DOOM scenario is if there is epic elite only drops. Like the elite/hard only drops in hound/vod. This will effectively force a play style in order to get the best gear. Even then it is not dissimilar to Epic LoB and certain challenges. So in then end epic hard/elite ward is just an extrapolation of current endgame content.

Epic hard/elite also has more XP.

Also... they're supposed to be the "group" difficulties. I see nothing to entice my wizard or FvS to join anything other than groups of friends for these. Zero interest in bot-playing for pugs.