More Feat slots for the Ranger class

[Svartelric]

That is what I want.

[Krelar]

That is what I want.

You might want to, I don't know, explain why? You already get a large number of useful free feats and are getting yet another one when the expansion goes live.

[AbyssalMage]

You might want to, I don't know, explain why? You already get a large number of useful free feats and are getting yet another one when the expansion goes live.

Hmmm...
The TWF feats are nice but useless if you truly want to be an AA. Most AA's want a Range Revamp not TWF feats but they take what they get. And AA's have a few Feats that are pre-req's that aren't terrible useful and so the free feats are a "wash".

So just looked up the pre-req's for AA. Looks like they only have 1 wasted so they have a +2 net gain.

If you are a Tempest, you have to take 3 feats that are basically useless (Well until the new AC changes go live, then it may still be debatable) which would be the same three TWF you get for free (1 for 1 exchange = no net gain in USEFUL feats atm).

So if you go AA, I definitely agree with you; if you go Tempest like me, I agree with the OP.

[Teharahma]

Hmmm...
The TWF feats are nice but useless if you truly want to be an AA. Most AA's want a Range Revamp not TWF feats but they take what they get. And AA's have a few Feats that are pre-req's that aren't terrible useful and so the free feats are a "wash".

So just looked up the pre-req's for AA. Looks like they only have 1 wasted so they have a +2 net gain.

If you are a Tempest, you have to take 3 feats that are basically useless (Well until the new AC changes go live, then it may still be debatable) which would be the same three TWF you get for free (1 for 1 exchange = no net gain in USEFUL feats atm).

So if you go AA, I definitely agree with you; if you go Tempest like me, I agree with the OP.

You're looking a given horse in the mouth. Stop whining.

[Purgatory]

Tempest are getting a huge boost since all there prereqs are getting boosts like , mobile spring attack.

Whirl wind gonna be a good feat too.

[t0r012]

bow strength(ignore prereqs and get sooner than anyone else can)
rapid shot (ignore prereqs)
two weapon fighting (ignore prereqs)
die hard
many shot(ignore prereqs)
improved two weapon fighting (ignore prereqs)
evasion
precise shot(ignore prereqs)
improved precise shot (ignore prereqs)
greater two weapon fighting(ignore prereqs)

plus standard feats at 1,3,6,9,12,15,18


yeah them poor feat starved rangers need some more feats , please

[FranOhmsford]

The Annoying thing for me is that Ranger AAs have to take a useless feat - Mental Toughness.

Whereas other classes can use enhancements to gain Elven AA.

This seems backwards to me - Elven AA should require the feat in my view NOT Ranger AA.

But I'd settle for Rangers being able to use an enhancement instead of Mental Toughness.

[herzkos]

Me want. that's reason enough. and if don't get me mad!

seriously op, if you want to make a change try justifying it or at least explaining the rational.
i'd be much more likely to support an "extra" feat for pally, bard, barb, sorc, or fvs well before
ranger.

otoh, i want to roll up my elven AA/tempest EXPLOITER(emp added). AA through racial and tempest through
ranger (if the game will let me) so i'll take all the feats i can get :p


The Annoying thing for me is that Ranger AAs have to take a useless feat - Mental Toughness.

Whereas other classes can use enhancements to gain Elven AA.

This seems backwards to me - Elven AA should require the feat in my view NOT Ranger AA.

But I'd settle for Rangers being able to use an enhancement instead of Mental Toughness.
It makes sense to me because of elves natural affinity for magic. But (iirc), elven AA still need to
burn a feat on it. That feat may not be mental toughness but the requirements for elven arcanum
(at least for rangers) is another feat or a class splash. your bard/wizzy/sorc won't have to burn a feat and
in the case of bard/sorc that is a real good thing because they don't have feats to spare at all.

[FranOhmsford]

Me want. that's reason enough. and if don't get me mad!

seriously op, if you want to make a change try justifying it or at least explaining the rational.
i'd be much more likely to support an "extra" feat for pally, bard, barb, sorc, or fvs well before
ranger.

otoh, i want to roll up my elven AA/tempest EXPLOITER(emp added). AA through racial and tempest through
ranger (if the game will let me) so i'll take all the feats i can get :p


It makes sense to me because of elves natural affinity for magic. But (iirc), elven AA still need to
burn a feat on it. That feat may not be mental toughness but the requirements for elven arcanum
(at least for rangers) is another feat or a class splash. your bard/wizzy/sorc won't have to burn a feat and
in the case of bard/sorc that is a real good thing because they don't have feats to spare at all.

Bards, Wizards, Sorcs, Clerics, FavSouls and Artificers can all take Elven AA at the cost of an enhancement that they're all going to take anyway - It's not even an enhancement they wouldn't normally take.

I'm not talking about melees here - A Fighter, Rogue, Barb or Paladin AA must burn a feat and splash yes.

Rangers already have a hard time fitting feats in early - On a None Human if you want AA at 6 you're gonna be leaving Toughness till 9 at the earliest.
Btw even Elven Rangers don't get an enhancement choice - So what happened to that natural affinity for magic eh?

They've basically made Elf an inferior choice to Human or H-Elf on a Ranger AA - This is wrong in my opinion.

Oh and of course H-Elves are already a superior choice for every other AA build.

[Vulgari]

bow strength(ignore prereqs and get sooner than anyone else can)
rapid shot (ignore prereqs)
two weapon fighting (ignore prereqs)
die hard
many shot(ignore prereqs)
improved two weapon fighting (ignore prereqs)
evasion
precise shot(ignore prereqs)
improved precise shot (ignore prereqs)
greater two weapon fighting(ignore prereqs)

plus standard feats at 1,3,6,9,12,15,18


yeah them poor feat starved rangers need some more feats , please

Yet even with those "free" feats, I would still consider Rangers the most irrelevant class in DDO since anything they can do, some other class can do better. AAs may excel at dealing bow damage, but if I needed ranged damage, I'd prefer an Arcane or even an Arty for the greater utility they bring to a party. As for Tempests or DWS, I'm not even sure a serious case can be made for them being top choices for any party running a high level raid or epic.

Have you taken a ranger to cap and through epics and high level raids?
What quests and raids have you been in where the party is waiting specifically for a Ranger to join?

[Vulgari]

Tempest are getting a huge boost since all there prereqs are getting boosts like , mobile spring attack.

Whirl wind gonna be a good feat too.

Huge boost in relation to what other class?

Will Tempest Rangers get better damage mitigation than Rogues, Monks, Paladins, Fighters, or Barbarians?

How useful will Whirlwind be for the Tempest Ranger in managing aggro in epics?

[Jay203]

Bards, Wizards, Sorcs, Clerics, FavSouls and Artificers can all take Elven AA at the cost of an enhancement that they're all going to take anyway - It's not even an enhancement they wouldn't normally take.

they also need to spend their feat slot for:
Rapid Shot
Many Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Bow Strength

on top of:
Improve Critical
Toughess
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus
and even Zen Archery for some

and since they won't get enough feat slots to get all of them....
seriously, Rangers are the last to be in the place to ask for more feats

[FranOhmsford]

they also need to spend their feat slot for:
Rapid Shot
Many Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Bow Strength

on top of:
Improve Critical
Toughess
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus
and even Zen Archery for some

and since they won't get enough feat slots to get all of them....
seriously, Rangers are the last to be in the place to ask for more feats

So make Weapon Focus the feat requirement - It already is for Deepwood Sniper

Mental Toughness is just plain wrong as a feat requirement - It has no benefit for Rangers who shouldn't be running out of SPs anyway.

Or make it a choice of Mental Toughness, Weapon Focus Ranged or Zen Archery then your Arcanes can use MT, Divines get to use Zen Archery and Rangers and Artis can take Weapon Focus: Ranged as their PreReq.

Don't get me wrong - Rangers aren't as feat starved as some {Paladins} BUT they're not exactly overflowing with feats either {Fighters/Wizards/Artis}.

[Jay203]

So make Weapon Focus the feat requirement - It already is for Deepwood Sniper

Mental Toughness is just plain wrong as a feat requirement - It has no benefit for Rangers who shouldn't be running out of SPs anyway.

Or make it a choice of Mental Toughness, Weapon Focus Ranged or Zen Archery then your Arcanes can use MT, Divines get to use Zen Archery and Rangers and Artis can take Weapon Focus: Ranged as their PreReq.

Don't get me wrong - Rangers aren't as feat starved as some {Paladins} BUT they're not exactly overflowing with feats either {Fighters/Wizards/Artis}.

mental toughness does make sense in that it "strengthens" your mind for the arcane aspect of the Arcane Archer
Weapon Focus is already a requirement for AA as well as Point Blank Shot

[FranOhmsford]

mental toughness does make sense in that it "strengthens" your mind for the arcane aspect of the Arcane Archer
Weapon Focus is already a requirement for AA as well as Point Blank Shot

Sorry only remembered that it was a requirement for Deepwood.

But this is perfect - Move Weapon Focus: Ranged from Mandatory to Optional PreReq.

It's another weak feat overall anyway.

Keep Point Blank Shot as Mandatory and if you really must have 2 Mandatory Feat PreReqs add Toughness {Rangers are meant to be Wilderness Warriors after all}.

As it is a Ranger AA has to take Point Blank at Lvl 1, Weapon Focus at Lvl 3 and Mental Toughness at Lvl 6 - This means that Toughness cannot be taken before Lvl 9 at the earliest {unless you're Human}.
H-Elves get the dilletante feat - Rogue usually on a Ranger.
Elves get kicked in the unmentionables yet again.

[Jay203]

Sorry only remembered that it was a requirement for Deepwood.

But this is perfect - Move Weapon Focus: Ranged from Mandatory to Optional PreReq.

It's another weak feat overall anyway.

Keep Point Blank Shot as Mandatory and if you really must have 2 Mandatory Feat PreReqs add Toughness {Rangers are meant to be Wilderness Warriors after all}.

As it is a Ranger AA has to take Point Blank at Lvl 1, Weapon Focus at Lvl 3 and Mental Toughness at Lvl 6 - This means that Toughness cannot be taken before Lvl 9 at the earliest {unless you're Human}.
H-Elves get the dilletante feat - Rogue usually on a Ranger.
Elves get kicked in the unmentionables yet again.

and why would getting toughness at lvl 9 instead of lvl 6 matter?
and weapon focus does need a makeover now especially since the change to combat and stuff... make it +5 % :p
but aside from that, i don't see a reason to make any other changes

you want to bring the racial feat starvation?
WF has it the worst, in order to have any sort of armor heavier than robes, WF has to spend a Feat for it. not to mention the devs aren't really giving WF their advantages by adding the Reinforced Plating on the new docents

[Svartelric]

In case anyone wants to do a tempest build: Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack are required - subtract these from the free Feats total; also, if you are a Tempest, you could care less about archery Feats (and if you're AA, it's the other way around).

Someone mentioned Whirlwind Attack. Pleas, if you don't know how a Ranger build works, don't get all smug like I wasn't explaining enough in my first post: the problem is clearly your ignorance - while it's true I need 3 of the prereq for WA, I'd have to expand one slot for CE (which in case I'm aiming for max DPS instead of AC is useless) and one slot for WA itself, which is another very debatable Feat.

Also, the max number of Feat slots on a Ranger is 8, plus some free Feats. Ok, let's talk about Tempest:
- you have Evasion as a free Feat, which already has its built-in downside (light armor);
- you can get the Tempest PrE to use the 3 free TWF Feats, the downside is you have to take 3 Feats (3-3=0, learn math pls);
- Favored Enemy Feats are circumstantial bonuses, which only make sense if you spend all of you APs on the boosting Enhancements;
- unless you take one (1), two (2) or all (3) of EWP: Khopesh, OTWF, Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons, you probably won't be doing any decent DPS - subtract the ones you choose from the Free feats;
- Tempest don't care about Bows that much - seriously, why would you use a bow, if you want to do Tempest? - so please don't count the archery Feats as free Feats, they're more like "oh, I have this in my char sheet k thx" feats which are hardly ever used.

So, an ideal list for a pure Rgr 20 Tempest build is:
- Dodge
- Mobility
- Spring Attack
- Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
- Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
- Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh

then what? We go for the useless Combat Expertise + Whirlwind Attack combo? No room for Toughness, then? Ok.
Or do we take Power Attack and Cleave? Still no room for Toughness. Ok.
Do we take Toughness, and what else? Weapon Focus?
Rangers as melee have not enough HP to just skip Toughness, IMO, and their DPS isn't the best of all classes, to use an euphemism; if they aim for AC, the fall even more behind other melees, and Tempest don't have special abilities like Slaying Arrows or Assassinate, or great spells to help in combat - I mean Barkskin is +5 AC, see above; Ram's Might is quite meh; FoM? Resists? Ok.

Now, AA are a completely different thing. Do you need to be a Ranger to be AA? Mh???

The thing I'd like to see, is rangers to be forced to choose a path between archer and melee in early levels, and be granted the appropriate feats only - it really makes no sense that a seasoned dual wielder innately learns how to shot 3 arrows at once after all his experience with, what, swords? How f**king stupid is that?

[Alfhild]

- Tempest don't care about Bows that much - seriously, why would you use a bow, if you want to do Tempest? - so please don't count the archery Feats as free Feats, they're more like "oh, I have this in my char sheet k thx" feats which are hardly ever used.FYI, you do not speak for all Tempests ;)

[Chai]

- Tempest don't care about Bows that much - seriously, why would you use a bow, if you want to do Tempest? - so please don't count the archery Feats as free Feats, they're more like "oh, I have this in my char sheet k thx" feats which are hardly ever used.


Manyshot is the single best 20 second damage burst in the game. Even when you dont have slayer arrows, you are playing half your class if you dont use a bow as a tempest. Any ranger worth their salt uses those feats for 20 seconds out of every 2 combat minutes.



The thing I'd like to see, is rangers to be forced to choose a path between archer and melee in early levels, and be granted the appropriate feats only - it really makes no sense that a seasoned dual wielder innately learns how to shot 3 arrows at once after all his experience with, what, swords? How f**king stupid is that?

Its not stupid at all actually.

There is no "innate" knowledge at all. Rangers are trained in both. The reason ranger is still even remotely a good class is because it cultivates a ranged and a melee option. Theres also no reason to nerf something that is already considered bottom of the pile DPS when not bursting.

[Tiemmothi]

Manyshot is the single best 20 second damage burst in the game. Even when you dont have slayer arrows, you are playing half your class if you dont use a bow as a tempest. Any ranger worth their salt uses those feats for 20 seconds out of every 2 combat minutes.

SO true. And be happy that you dont have to choose your path and they GIVE you both trees, Melee AND Ranged.




Its not stupid at all actually.

There is no "innate" knowledge at all. Rangers are trained in both. The reason ranger is still even remotely a good class is because it cultivates a ranged and a melee option. Theres also no reason to nerf something that is already considered bottom of the pile DPS when not bursting.

A GOOD ranger will use all his options and a BAD ranger will hobble along with one while ignoring the other. Box yourself into melee or ranged and be a bad ranger.

[Svartelric]

Just so you know, I was actually hoping for the ranger to be made more similar to its PnP counterpart (3.5) - you either choose archery or melee, you can't have both.

Now, if you want to have a ranger which is not specialized in one or the other combat styles, feel free to sheeply accept it the way it is now. Personally, I'd like to see Ranger become more expert in Bows or Swords, but with more Feats or other options to make this specialization viable.

The argument raised by some of you is cyclical: Ranger is Ranger because is Ranger; I don't care for how the devs envisioned it; Tempest, as it's now in game, is broken, because it's not as it should be, nor it's on par with other melee classes - if your answer is, "also use the bow", you are utterly ignoring the point.

[Purgatory]

In case anyone wants to do a tempest build: Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack are required - subtract these from the free Feats total; also, if you are a Tempest, you could care less about archery Feats (and if you're AA, it's the other way around).

Someone mentioned Whirlwind Attack. Pleas, if you don't know how a Ranger build works, don't get all smug like I wasn't explaining enough in my first post: the problem is clearly your ignorance - while it's true I need 3 of the prereq for WA, I'd have to expand one slot for CE (which in case I'm aiming for max DPS instead of AC is useless) and one slot for WA itself, which is another very debatable Feat.

Also, the max number of Feat slots on a Ranger is 8, plus some free Feats. Ok, let's talk about Tempest:
- you have Evasion as a free Feat, which already has its built-in downside (light armor);
- you can get the Tempest PrE to use the 3 free TWF Feats, the downside is you have to take 3 Feats (3-3=0, learn math pls);
- Favored Enemy Feats are circumstantial bonuses, which only make sense if you spend all of you APs on the boosting Enhancements;
- unless you take one (1), two (2) or all (3) of EWP: Khopesh, OTWF, Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons, you probably won't be doing any decent DPS - subtract the ones you choose from the Free feats;
- Tempest don't care about Bows that much - seriously, why would you use a bow, if you want to do Tempest? - so please don't count the archery Feats as free Feats, they're more like "oh, I have this in my char sheet k thx" feats which are hardly ever used.

So, an ideal list for a pure Rgr 20 Tempest build is:
- Dodge
- Mobility
- Spring Attack
- Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
- Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
- Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh

then what? We go for the useless Combat Expertise + Whirlwind Attack combo? No room for Toughness, then? Ok.
Or do we take Power Attack and Cleave? Still no room for Toughness. Ok.
Do we take Toughness, and what else? Weapon Focus?
Rangers as melee have not enough HP to just skip Toughness, IMO, and their DPS isn't the best of all classes, to use an euphemism; if they aim for AC, the fall even more behind other melees, and Tempest don't have special abilities like Slaying Arrows or Assassinate, or great spells to help in combat - I mean Barkskin is +5 AC, see above; Ram's Might is quite meh; FoM? Resists? Ok.

Now, AA are a completely different thing. Do you need to be a Ranger to be AA? Mh???

The thing I'd like to see, is rangers to be forced to choose a path between archer and melee in early levels, and be granted the appropriate feats only - it really makes no sense that a seasoned dual wielder innately learns how to shot 3 arrows at once after all his experience with, what, swords? How f**king stupid is that?

LMAO you have no idea how to play a ranger... is ok We all are noob once.


want a tempest ranger? you splash usualy good to splash monk for 2 free feats and some nice enhancments.

you completly ignoring fact rangers are not a one trick pony nor where they ever meant to be even if they build for tempest or AA they still should be able to do both range and melee.

Only thing a tempest ranger should be worryied about is not being able to fit in maxamize and empower healing for self healing.

but still if you go human take 2 lvl monk, should be able to fit in dodge, mobilty, spring attack, toughness, combat expertise, maxamise, whilrwind, empower healing, power attack, and kopesh.

That looks like a prety nice tempest ranger to me. cure serious wounds should hit for 300 ish easy.

whirlwind might be meh so hey pick up quicken then or oversized 2wf. or 2wf defense.

maybe you dont care that you die all the time or need a healer where ever you go so drop empower healing and maxamise...

now you got 2 more feats to play with. ofcourse id probly lol at you and shake my head if you droped those 2 feats for something else since strong self healing is the most powerful ability in game.


I love what they are doing for tempest rangers indirectly by buffing up the required feats a bit.

It might not be enuf but its better then makeing them over powered again, so im sure they keep adding tell they hit a good balance again.

They are going in the right direction and look forward in playing tempest rangers again.

[herzkos]

Bards, Wizards, Sorcs, Clerics, FavSouls and Artificers can all take Elven AA at the cost of an enhancement that they're all going to take anyway - It's not even an enhancement they wouldn't normally take.
ok, maybe i'm missing something on how ÜBER mental toughness is:
I've rolled up lots of clerics and wizzies and I don't really recall taking mental toughness.
It's just not worth it (imo) except at very low levels. On a FVS/bard/sorc that feat isn't even a
consideration unless it's a pre-req for something else (at least to me).

I'm not talking about melees here - A Fighter, Rogue, Barb or Paladin AA must burn a feat and splash yes.

Rangers already have a hard time fitting feats in early - On a None Human if you want AA at 6 you're gonna be leaving Toughness till 9 at the earliest.
you have a point about fitting in the feats. as a ranger you want toughness but from my standpoint it'd be
pushed back to 12 because at lvl 9 i'm taking imp crit (ranged/slashing/piercing whatever). So that actually
strengthens your point.

Btw even Elven Rangers don't get an enhancement choice - So what happened to that natural affinity for magic eh?
Wait a minute, in your initial post you were arguing that elves get it for an enhancement not a feat.
I support that idea even though it isn't the current requirement. So, Yay, we agree on that.
They've basically made Elf an inferior choice to Human or H-Elf on a Ranger AA - This is wrong in my opinion.

Oh and of course H-Elves are already a superior choice for every other AA build.
yeah, i dislike when they make p2p classes significantly more advantageous than the
original intent in dnd. (being serious here) Unfortunately, Turbine wants people to buy them.
In my preferred setup, all three classes (human, h-elf, elf) would be about even overall.
alas, that is not currently the case.

responses in red

on the hopeful front:
perhaps when they redo the enhancements some of the feat requirements will go away. I'll not hold my breath due to
the lack of love that rangers get but maybe, just maybe :).

[Jay203]

responses in red

on the hopeful front:
perhaps when they redo the enhancements some of the feat requirements will go away. I'll not hold my breath due to
the lack of love that rangers get but maybe, just maybe :).

that's true, but the enhancement pass seems so far away :(:(:(:(

[FranOhmsford]

responses in red

on the hopeful front:
perhaps when they redo the enhancements some of the feat requirements will go away. I'll not hold my breath due to
the lack of love that rangers get but maybe, just maybe :).

Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
Bards, Wizards, Sorcs, Clerics, FavSouls and Artificers can all take Elven AA at the cost of an enhancement that they're all going to take anyway - It's not even an enhancement they wouldn't normally take.
ok, maybe i'm missing something on how ÜBER mental toughness is:
I've rolled up lots of clerics and wizzies and I don't really recall taking mental toughness.
It's just not worth it (imo) except at very low levels. On a FVS/bard/sorc that feat isn't even a
consideration unless it's a pre-req for something else (at least to me).

Mental Toughness IS A PreReq {ArchMage} -But I was talking about the enhancements that everyone else gets to use as PreReqs for AA - Every single one of them is going to be taken by that class anyway.

Btw even Elven Rangers don't get an enhancement choice - So what happened to that natural affinity for magic eh?
Wait a minute, in your initial post you were arguing that elves get it for an enhancement not a feat.
I support that idea even though it isn't the current requirement. So, Yay, we agree on that.
They've basically made Elf an inferior choice to Human or H-Elf on a Ranger AA - This is wrong in my opinion.

Again You miss the point - Elven AAs of ANY OTHER Class get to use Enhancements - Elven Rangers DO NOT!

Oh and of course H-Elves are already a superior choice for every other AA build.
yeah, i dislike when they make p2p classes significantly more advantageous than the
original intent in dnd. (being serious here) Unfortunately, Turbine wants people to buy them.
In my preferred setup, all three classes (human, h-elf, elf) would be about even overall.
alas, that is not currently the case.

P2P Classes have to be worth buying - P2P Races DO NOT - You're buying the race because you want to play that race in the first place {I would buy Kobold playable race even if it was the gimpest race possible - I'd be annoyed yes but I'd still buy and play it}.
In my view though H-Elves have been given far too much of Elves natural abilities {further gimping Elves - As H-Elves are pretty much always the superior choice}.
elves should be amongst the best Archers, Wizards and Sorcs in my opinion - They should also be good in melee combat and as Divines BUT DDO's focus on HP rather than AC has destroyed that.

Responses in Yellow


and why would getting toughness at lvl 9 instead of lvl 6 matter?
and weapon focus does need a makeover now especially since the change to combat and stuff... make it +5 % :p
but aside from that, i don't see a reason to make any other changes

you want to bring the racial feat starvation?
WF has it the worst, in order to have any sort of armor heavier than robes, WF has to spend a Feat for it. not to mention the devs aren't really giving WF their advantages by adding the Reinforced Plating on the new docents

Actually I agree with you here {D@mn I want to puke now} WF do have ridiculous feat requirements - WF Armour feats should be enhancements - Unfortunately WF already have too few disadvantages - I'd change things around to make the Armour an advantage for WF and put the disadvantages elsewhere myself - It seems ridiculous that a race that was created for Battle isn't strongest as a melee combatant

BTW H-Orcs should be stronger as Barbs, Humans and Dwarves should be better Paladins. BUT WF should be better Fighters.

[Khatzhas]

The thing I'd like to see, is rangers to be forced to choose a path between archer and melee in early levels, and be granted the appropriate feats only - it really makes no sense that a seasoned dual wielder innately learns how to shot 3 arrows at once after all his experience with, what, swords? How f**king stupid is that? It sounds like you'd actually be more comfortable playing a twf fighter than a ranger.
A "seasoned dual wielder" who only has experience in swords sounds a lot more like the focus of a fighter than a woodsman who uses spells, special abilities and a mix of fighting styles. That would solve many of your other issues with the class as well: Light armour, lack of HP etc.

If you funnelled the ranger into only a single fighting style, there would be even less to distinguish them from a fighter: the P&P differences are less pronounced in a MMO.

With the new combat system, the Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack feats are actually quite good for a light-armoured melee combatant: DDO is not one of those MMOs where you can get away with focussing on "Max DPS!" at the expense of your defences.

[FranOhmsford]

It sounds like you'd actually be more comfortable playing a twf fighter than a ranger.
A "seasoned dual wielder" who only has experience in swords sounds a lot more like the focus of a fighter than a woodsman who uses spells, special abilities and a mix of fighting styles. That would solve many of your other issues with the class as well: Light armour, lack of HP etc.

If you funnelled the ranger into only a single fighting style, there would be even less to distinguish them from a fighter: the P&P differences are less pronounced in a MMO.

With the new combat system, the Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack feats are actually quite good for a light-armoured melee combatant: DDO is not one of those MMOs where you can get away with focussing on "Max DPS!" at the expense of your defences.

Rangers in DDO are nowhere near PnP - Rangers magical abilities in DDO are far too few in my opinion - We don't have Animal Companions, Our Summons are stupidly weak - And worst of all Fighters make better Two Weapon Fighters and Better Archers.

Deepwood Sniper is completely broken.
Arcane Archer should be removed from the Ranger list entirely and placed in the Elven list {Not H-Elf} - Deepwood needs to replace AA as the Ranger Archer.
Tempest needs a huge Boost to surpass a Fighter wielding 2 weapons {OR A Ranger's other abilities should make being a Ranger more useful.}.

P.S. Someone said that a Tempest should have two levels of Monk {I think that's in this thread even}.
A Ranger should not be forced into multiclassing {ESPECIALLY Not into Monk! A class that should have no synergy whatsoever with the ideal of a Ranger}.

[Synthetic]

Rangers in DDO are nowhere near PnP - Rangers magical abilities in DDO are far too few in my opinion - We don't have Animal Companions, Our Summons are stupidly weak - And worst of all Fighters make better Two Weapon Fighters and Better Archers.


Magical abilities in PNP weren't that great either - on the upside with druid spells added rangers got some new ones and some improvements. Animal companions were weak in PNP low level unless you took feats and summons were the same.

As to fighters they make better TWF or Better Archers, but rangers get the better versatility do too the huge amounts of free feats and they can dump dex for more str - actually not sure about better TWF do to rangers getting 100% off hand and 10% double strike and with ED they can pickup haste boost the one thing that I know of which makes fighters marginally better.

[herzkos]

words

nevermind.
good luck with your gaming.

/edited

[BOgre]

Its not more Feats we need, since there are already options out there to make Feat-perfect AA's and Tempests. It's more spell slots. The new spells we're getting are nice and all, but they require giving up too many 'must-have' Ranger spells to use.

currently we get: what I'd like:


lvl8: 2 1 - - 2 1 - -
9th: 2 1 - - 2 2 - -
10th:2 2 - - 3 2 - -
11th:2 2 1 - 3 2 1 -
12th:2 2 2 - 3 2 2 -
13th:2 2 2 - 4 3 2 -
14th:3 2 2 1 4 3 2 1
15th:3 2 2 2 4 3 2 2
16th:3 3 2 2 4 4 3 2
17th:3 3 2 2 5 4 3 3
18th:4 3 2 2 5 5 4 3
19th:4 4 4 3 6 5 4 4
20th:4 4 4 4 6 6 5 5

This would let pure Rangers AND splashes use a good selection of old+new spells, at the levels where they matter without severly overpowering their casting ability. Specifically with summons (and their buffs).

[BOgre]

Its not more Feats we need, since there are already options out there to make Feat-perfect AA's and Tempests. It's more spell slots. The new spells we're getting are nice and all, but they require giving up too many 'must-have' Ranger spells to use.

currently we get:.............................what I'd like:


lvl8: 2.....1..... -...... -.........................2.....1.....-.....-
9th: 2.....1.....-......-.........................2.....2.....-.....-
10th:2.....2.....-.....-.........................3.....2.....-.....-
11th:2.....2.....1.....-.........................3.....2.....1.....-
12th:2.....2.....2.....-.........................3.....2.....2.....-
13th:2.....2.....2.....-.........................4.....3.....2.....-
14th:3.....2.....2.....1.........................4 ..... 3.....2.....1
15th:3.....2.....2.....2.........................4 .....3.....2.....2
16th:3.....3.....2.....2.........................4 .....4.....3.....2
17th:3.....3.....2.....2.........................5 .....4.....3.....3
18th:4.....3.....2.....2.........................5 .....5.....4.....3
19th:4.....4.....4.....3.........................6 .....5.....4.....4
20th:4.....4.....4.....4.........................6 .....6.....5.....5

This would let pure Rangers AND splashes use a good selection of old+new spells, at the levels where they matter without severly overpowering their casting ability. Specifically with summons (and their buffs).

Alternately, more spell slots, up to 7,7,6,6, gained at epic levels 21-25.

[Svartelric]

Rangers in DDO are nowhere near PnP - Rangers magical abilities in DDO are far too few in my opinion - We don't have Animal Companions, Our Summons are stupidly weak - And worst of all Fighters make better Two Weapon Fighters and Better Archers.

Deepwood Sniper is completely broken.
Arcane Archer should be removed from the Ranger list entirely and placed in the Elven list {Not H-Elf} - Deepwood needs to replace AA as the Ranger Archer.
Tempest needs a huge Boost to surpass a Fighter wielding 2 weapons {OR A Ranger's other abilities should make being a Ranger more useful.}.

P.S. Someone said that a Tempest should have two levels of Monk {I think that's in this thread even}.
A Ranger should not be forced into multiclassing {ESPECIALLY Not into Monk! A class that should have no synergy whatsoever with the ideal of a Ranger}.


Completely agree.

[Nessann]

I would love the new stances ect, if it hadn't messed up multishot. Ever since choosing the epic lvl's i have not been able to use the multishot. Is this a known issue?

[FranOhmsford]

Magical abilities in PNP weren't that great either - on the upside with druid spells added rangers got some new ones and some improvements. Animal companions were weak in PNP low level unless you took feats and summons were the same.

As to fighters they make better TWF or Better Archers, but rangers get the better versatility do too the huge amounts of free feats and they can dump dex for more str - actually not sure about better TWF do to rangers getting 100% off hand and 10% double strike and with ED they can pickup haste boost the one thing that I know of which makes fighters marginally better.

ED is Lvl 20 + if as I believe you're talking about Epic Destinies.

Tempest Rangers may get slightly better Two Weapon Fighting skills than an equal high lvl fighter.
However they get LESS HP
LESS AC without a Monk Splash {No Med/Hvy Armour unless you want to lose Evasion {Dump Dex and Evasion is pointless anyway}.
Self Healing that doesn't cut it unless you go all out. And a Fighter can take UMD and Scroll Heal just as well.

Animal Companions and Summons may have been weak in PnP BUT Everything has been boosted to incredible Levels in DDO compared to PnP - Everything that is apart from Summons/Companions.

Paladins NEED new spells - Lvl 2 I'm looking at you {Bull's Str, Eagle's Splendour etc. + Angelskin - I'm not going to use ANY current Lvl 2 Paladin Spell by the time I get them.
Well Angelskin may come in handy for Spider/Scorpion fights BUT that's about it {And Invulnerability does the same thing - Only better}.

Rangers spell slots are already taken - Yes they've got a few weak spells BUT they don't have the slots to worry about those spells anyway.

BTW Back in 1st and 2nd ED. AD&D Paladins and Rangers got to take their spells from the same list as Clerics {Deity of choice of course} - They just got those spells later.

[Aashrym]

responses in red

on the hopeful front:
perhaps when they redo the enhancements some of the feat requirements will go away. I'll not hold my breath due to
the lack of love that rangers get but maybe, just maybe :).

We were told in the enhancement feedback threads that feat requirements would be going away. Not just some of them. We were also told there would be some enhancements in those trees that affected specific feats and in those cases it would be necessary to have the enhancement.

That and the bonuses for tempest that were listed looked pretty good. ;)

Given the expected drop in feat req's and the number of bonus feats rangers actually get I'm going to call them not feat starved at that point. Ranged does need a lot of feats that are provided and free TWF without the dex req's are both pretty big bonuses. ;)

[Vormaerin]

And worst of all Fighters make better Two Weapon Fighters and Better Archers.



Fighters were already better two weapon fighters and archers than rangers. That's what's special about fighters: they are the best at whatever they focus on. There is nothing in PnP that makes a ranger better than anyone else at dual wielding or archery.

What makes rangers special in p&p is the spells and skill points. Unfortunately, the prevalence of clickies, consumables, and shipbuffs greatly reduces the value of the ranger's spell list, while skills less valuable also.

Its only because of DDO's class based prestige enhancements that anyone thinks the ranger is supposed to be the best at dual wielding or archery. But they aren't. They are supposed to be a versatility class: able to switch between melee and archery as needed, provide their own buffs/healing, and use stealth/spot/search.

It just happens that like most MMOs, the specialists are better than the generalists because of the way parties work.

[Vulgari]

Its only because of DDO's class based prestige enhancements that anyone thinks the ranger is supposed to be the best at dual wielding or archery.

Actually, the DDO official description for the Ranger class states pretty explicitly that Rangers are supposed to be the best at TWF.

"They are the best class at two-weapon fighting, using a weapon in each hand."

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Ranger

For whatever reason, the devs have decided to no longer honor the class description.

[Svartelric]

<snip!>

Ever since I started plying I've tried several Ranger based builds; the self-healing one is my least favourite, because it's not effective and specializing in healing on a Ranger is the best way to prevent it from doing any damage, or have any AC, or be of any use at all to a party. Also, I had an Exploiter build for quite some time, and while the AC was pretty nice, had some cool skills and whatnot, DPS wasn't how it should be on a Tempest Ranger, and it didn't feel right.

The point I am trying to make, even to a rude and uneducated arrogant such as you, is that I'd like to see Tempest in DDO be more similar to what it was in PnP, and what in theory the devs wanted it to be, that is the best TWF melee of all. Period. Rangers, when they become Tempest, should be the single best class on TWF.

You can call me noob all you want, and whine on how you're the only one who knows hot to play a Ranger, but you're clearly clueless to what the point of the matter is, so please try and stay on topic and make useful suggestions, otherwise take some medication for your PMS.

[FrozenNova]

[Arrogant sounding tripe]

If you think a tempest ranger, with 30 point resists, freedom of movement, manyshot, good to great self healing, evasion, stealth or trap skills, should be dealing more TWF damage than a TWF fighter who *just* has his TWF, then you are wrong.

Rangers are generalists. It's nonsense for them to outdamage a fighter.

What needs to happen is to have their utility become actually useful to parties.

[FranOhmsford]

Fighters were already better two weapon fighters and archers than rangers. That's what's special about fighters: they are the best at whatever they focus on. There is nothing in PnP that makes a ranger better than anyone else at dual wielding or archery.

What makes rangers special in p&p is the spells and skill points. Unfortunately, the prevalence of clickies, consumables, and shipbuffs greatly reduces the value of the ranger's spell list, while skills less valuable also.

Its only because of DDO's class based prestige enhancements that anyone thinks the ranger is supposed to be the best at dual wielding or archery. But they aren't. They are supposed to be a versatility class: able to switch between melee and archery as needed, provide their own buffs/healing, and use stealth/spot/search.

It just happens that like most MMOs, the specialists are better than the generalists because of the way parties work.

Dungeons & Dragons has been through many changes over it's 35+ year lifespan.

I'm remembering when Rangers were the ONLY class in the game to even get Two Weapon Fighting/Ambidexterity.
Yes these both became skills available to all BUT other classes incl Fighter had to specifically take them.
Rangers got them free.

Now a Weapon's Master Fighter {Kensai} could become better at wielding his specific weapons even Dual-Wielding them than an equivalent Ranger.
BUT that took a lot of work and the difference was never as much as in DDO.

I didn't say btw that I believe Tempest's should be the best - I do believe that they should be equal to a Kensai on this point.
The Kensai after all does have the choice to specialise in Two Handers like Greatswords and Falchions.
Or in any single handed weapon and wield Sword and Board.
Or in Scimitars/Khops or Long Swords and Dual-Wield.

The Tempest can't specialize in any of these - He/she doesn't get Kensai Specializations.

The big problem here is that you're equating being able to dual-wield with being the best with a weapon - A fighter may be better with a Khopesh than a Ranger BUT in PnP the Ranger got Two Weapon Fighting FREE.
The Fighter had to pay for it by losing something else {In DDO the fighter doesn't lose anything by taking Two Weapon Fighting feats as he/she has more than enough feats to compensate and TWF is the undoubted King of Melee DPS as things stand.}.

Fighters will still be the best for wielding Sword and Board {of course this needs boosting to actually provide DPS}.
Barbarians will probably always be the best with Two Handers BUT Kensais aren't far behind.
Paladins....Errr?

[Svartelric]

If you think a tempest ranger, with 30 point resists, freedom of movement, manyshot, good to great self healing, evasion, stealth or trap skills, should be dealing more TWF damage than a TWF fighter who *just* has his TWF, then you are wrong.

Rangers are generalists. It's nonsense for them to outdamage a fighter.

What needs to happen is to have their utility become actually useful to parties.

Read the post above ^

[FrozenNova]

Read the post above ^

That's the one I was quoting, and I don't see your point. If you don't find their utility useful, then don't play them - that's the core of the class in DDO. If you don't like their utility and want to deal more damage, then, well, you've just described a fighter.

"Self healing builds"? I don't see how you can call them "not effective" or claim that they require specialization. Human tempest rangers have a spare feat from their monk or fighter splash, this means you can take emp healing or maximize depending on preference. You easily have enough skillpoints to take concentration. Rangers have devotion enhancements, humans have heal amp, healing amp gear exists, as does torc, conc opp, bauble and greensteel spellpoint gear. Ranger spell healing is just as good as paladin spell healing, barring the fact that paladins can take quicken if they choose (and this applies to rangers too if they give up trap skills). It is incredibly effective, and a ranger who doesn't use spell healing is wasting a considerable part of his class. You don't lose any significant damage by spending one non-crucial feat on a metamagic.

[Vulgari]

If you think a tempest ranger, with 30 point resists, freedom of movement, manyshot, good to great self healing, evasion, stealth or trap skills, should be dealing more TWF damage than a TWF fighter who *just* has his TWF, then you are wrong.


Let's break down your argument point by point.

1. 30 point resists - Airship buffs and others in party can cast also.

2. FOM - By the time Rangers can get this spell, many divines are already auto casting on party members or asking who needs fom?

3. Manyshot - How well is that going to work after level 20? http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377250.
When the tempest Ranger is using his bow, he is not using his primary method of attack. Now if Manyshot added to his melee DPS simultaneously, now that would be a neat trick.

4. Self-healing - Even you concede that to get better healing, the Ranger will have to trade some of his meager DPS. Or if not explicit DPS, at least a toughness feat for a class that already lags others in hit points. Though there is a prevelance of BYOH in leveling quests, melee DPS are wanted in elite ToDs, EVON6s, and EADQ2s for their ability to maximize their DPS not for their self-healing.

5. Evasion - Any class can get this by getting 2 rogue or 2 monk.

6. Stealth - Really?

7. Trap skills - I must have missed the part where Rangers get Disable device as a class skill. Ironic that for the Ranger to have utility, the Ranger has to get a level of a different class. Do Rogues have to get Ranger levels to be better Rogues or more useful characters?

Telling the tempest Ranger to get monk or perhaps fighter for additional feat to gain utility speaks further to the weakness of the Ranger class (especially tempest). Which brings us to what the OP was requesting. Additional feat(s) for the Ranger. To say that the Ranger doesn't need additional feats because they can get it by not being a Ranger just validates the OP's argument.

Ok now to some of the stuff you left out in comparing Fighters to Rangers.

1. Fighter hit points > Ranger hit points.
2. Fighter to-hit > Ranger to-hit, once available feats and enhancements are taken into account.
3. Fighter Strength > Ranger Strength.
4. Fighter bonus feats means Fighters can pick what they get.
5. Fighter Tactics e.g., Stunning Blow. What is the tempest Ranger equivalent?

If a Fighter isn't satisfied with TWF, he can always go THF or go S&B. What viable melee options are there for Rangers other than TWF?

[FranOhmsford]

Let's break down your argument point by point.

1. 30 point resists - Airship buffs and others in party can cast also.

2. FOM - By the time Rangers can get this spell, many divines are already auto casting on party members or asking who needs fom?

3. Manyshot - How well is that going to work after level 20? http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377250.
When the tempest Ranger is using his bow, he is not using his primary method of attack. Now if Manyshot added to his melee DPS simultaneously, now that would be a neat trick.

4. Self-healing - Even you concede that to get better healing, the Ranger will have to trade some of his meager DPS. Or if not explicit DPS, at least a toughness feat for a class that already lags others in hit points. Though there is a prevelance of BYOH in leveling quests, melee DPS are wanted in elite ToDs, EVON6s, and EADQ2s for their ability to maximize their DPS not for their self-healing.

5. Evasion - Any class can get this by getting 2 rogue or 2 monk.

6. Stealth - Really?

7. Trap skills - I must have missed the part where Rangers get Disable device as a class skill. Ironic that for the Ranger to have utility, the Ranger has to get a level of a different class. Do Rogues have to get Ranger levels to be better Rogues or more useful characters?

Telling the tempest Ranger to get monk or perhaps fighter for additional feat to gain utility speaks further to the weakness of the Ranger class (especially tempest). Which brings us to what the OP was requesting. Additional feat(s) for the Ranger. To say that the Ranger doesn't need additional feats because they can get it by not being a Ranger just validates the OP's argument.

Ok now to some of the stuff you left out in comparing Fighters to Rangers.

1. Fighter hit points > Ranger hit points.
2. Fighter to-hit > Ranger to-hit, once available feats and enhancements are taken into account.
3. Fighter Strength > Ranger Strength.
4. Fighter bonus feats means Fighters can pick what they get.
5. Fighter Tactics e.g., Stunning Blow. What is the tempest Ranger equivalent?

If a Fighter isn't satisfied with TWF, he can always go THF or go S&B. What viable melee options are there for Rangers other than TWF?

Thank you for writing this ^

I couldn't {and didn't} manage to put it as well.

BTW I was running my Tempest yesterday {Lvl 15 Pure Elf Ranger}.
With Imp Devotion 3 She was Curing herself with Cure Serious for 40-45 pts.
Empower Healing is +50% right? - That would put it to 60-67 pts.
Maximise is double so We'd get 80-90 pts with that.
Put Emp and Max together and how does it work? Which comes first? Or do they both go off the base?

Anyway - What I'm saying is How the Heck do you get 300pt cures on a Ranger?

[FrozenNova]

3. Manyshot -
When the tempest Ranger is using his bow, he is not using his primary method of attack. Now if Manyshot added to his melee DPS simultaneously, now that would be a neat trick.

Just because it's not his "primary method of attack" doesn't mean that he doesn't have it available. Manyshot is there to allow a melee ranger to briefly use ranged, to clear a whole room without taking damage using IPS or focus casters down at the start of a fight without needing to hurl himself into the middle. It is a powerful piece of utility available only to rangers.


4. Self-healing - Even you concede that to get better healing, the Ranger will have to trade some of his meager DPS. Or if not explicit DPS, at least a toughness feat for a class that already lags others in hit points. Though there is a prevelance of BYOH in leveling quests, melee DPS are wanted in elite ToDs, EVON6s, and EADQ2s for their ability to maximize their DPS not for their self-healing.

It's true, the way these raids are designed, what's wanted is a mass beatdown, not melees who can take care of themselves. This is a problem, but I don't think the solution is "make rangers the same as fighters".


5. Evasion - Any class can get this by getting 2 rogue or 2 monk.
Just down there \/ you talk about how balancing for splashes is unreasonable, but oh well. Most classes lose a lot for doing this. Fighters lose their doublestrike. So, depending on how you're conducting the comparison, having evasion inherently is varyingly useful to rangers.


6. Stealth - Really?

In PnP you chose ranger because they have a billion skillpoints, not because they could outdamage the barbarian. This is an example of how their utility does not translate well to DDO gameplay.



Telling the tempest Ranger to get monk or perhaps fighter for additional feat to gain utility speaks further to the weakness of the Ranger class (especially tempest). Which brings us to what the OP was requesting. Additional feat(s) for the Ranger. To say that the Ranger doesn't need additional feats because they can get it by not being a Ranger just validates the OP's argument.

Giving rangers extra feats won't stop them from splashing. They will take the extra feats and splash anyway, unless for some reason they are provided at level 19/20. The fact that melee rangers can splash very easily is a part of the class, in much the same way that monks have a much harder time justifying those small splashes. Taking this away by putting buffs on 19/20 would be a shame, imho - the added utility from the splashes is half the fun. Your typical ranger gets to choose two out of three; healing, traps, AC. That's not an unreasonable choice.


Ok now to some of the stuff you left out in comparing Fighters to Rangers.

1. Fighter hit points > Ranger hit points.
2. Fighter to-hit > Ranger to-hit, once available feats and enhancements are taken into account.
3. Fighter Strength > Ranger Strength.
4. Fighter bonus feats means Fighters can pick what they get.
5. Fighter Tactics e.g., Stunning Blow. What is the tempest Ranger equivalent?

Ranger damage is less than fighter damage, yes. I reckon we got that far.
Tactics is the key example here - tactics is the fighter's form of utility, and its use is both evident and powerful. This is what rangers need more of - utility that is actually useful in the game's key situations.


If a Fighter isn't satisfied with TWF, he can always go THF or go S&B. What viable melee options are there for Rangers other than TWF?
I'm not seeing this bit. A fighter can't use all three at once. He respecs his entire feat lineup, at which point he is essentially a different character. His choice is permenant, just like the choice when you first pick ranger.

Also, healing:
CSW base is 3d6+6+15 is 31.5 base.
Running an ardor clickie with devotion II (3 AP) is 1+0.75+0.2 = 1.95 multiplier.
Running empower heal is 1+0.5 = 1.5 multiplier.
Healing amp on a human wearing dragontouched is 1.3*1.1*1.2 = 1.716 multiplier.
31.5*1.95*1.5*1.716 = 158 average per cast.
If you used maximize instead, you'd get 210 per cast instead.
And with some epic 1.3 amp from claw gloves too, you're up to 274, which is as close to 300 as you're going to get (and you will break 300 with good rolls, up to 340).
And is pretty **** good for a spell with 5s cooldown, considering you're also casting CMW to complement it.

Is that a lot of investment? Maybe. That's all the healing amp enhancements, devotion II, a spare feat for maximize, three minutes in the crafting hall for some ardor clickies, a bunch of rune crunching for the DT armor, and some epic fens for what is a great melee item anyway. It's still a lot of return, though.

If you didn't pick human, you lose out a lot - but you knew that when you started, I'm sure. Let's see what you should be healing for.
31.5 base (CSW caps at 15) * 2.05 (Devotion III and ardor) * 1.5 (emp heal) = 96 per cast, with no healing amp. Once you get your DT, this becomes a lot more useful, but it's still not human standard.

Being silly for a moment:
As a human with max amp, max amp gear and finger necklace, devotion 4 and maximize, and empower healing, you're getting
31.5*2.15*2.5*(1.4*1.1*1.2*1.3) = 406 per cast.

[CarpeNoctu]

1. 30 point resists - Airship buffs and others in party can cast also.

2. FOM - By the time Rangers can get this spell, many divines are already auto casting on party members or asking who needs fom?

True. But what happens when, for whatever reason, you don't have access to a ship? And, why not save the arcane or the cleric their SP? Since casting is not the main purpose of the Ranger, why not toss out the resist when I can?


3. Manyshot - How well is that going to work after level 20? http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377250.
When the tempest Ranger is using his bow, he is not using his primary method of attack. Now if Manyshot added to his melee DPS simultaneously, now that would be a neat trick.

1. With that link, are you really trying to use the fact that there's a bug in the beta to prove that something will be and remain useless on live? Sorry, I don't see it...

2. When the Tempest Ranger is using his bow, he is being a Ranger. Perhaps the enemy is out of reach, perhaps the Manyshot is ready and the enemy/ies is/are far enough away that they can be taken out quickly and easily. Perhaps the Manyshot is being used to cover the Rogue while he's disabling a particularly nasty trap or simply scouting ahead and takes a bit of aggro. Perhaps the Manyshot is used to make a quick kill or, at least pull some aggro when it's faster than running to the caster that's in trouble. Perhaps the Ranger is running Dust an is using his bow to avoid the spiders... See? There are many times that the use of the bow is absolutely relevant and Manyshot is a good thing, even for a Tempest.


4. Self-healing - Even you concede that to get better healing, the Ranger will have to trade some of his meager DPS. Or if not explicit DPS, at least a toughness feat for a class that already lags others in hit points. Though there is a prevelance of BYOH in leveling quests, melee DPS are wanted in elite ToDs, EVON6s, and EADQ2s for their ability to maximize their DPS not for their self-healing.

Personally, I don't take metamagics on my Rangers. I don't bother with heal amp for my spells. If I wanted to be a top notch party/raid healer, I'd roll a Cleric or a Favored Soul. I'm not interested in being a healer, but in being an adequate backup and self healer for the times that it's needed. And, please don't forget wand whipping, whether my Ranger is multiclassed or not.


5. Evasion - Any class can get this by getting 2 rogue or 2 monk.

True, but why multiclass for Evasion if you don't have to? I know many Fighters and Barbarians who have multiclassed for Evasion... Do you think they'd do that if they didn't have to?


6. Stealth - Really?

Stealth - Really. Equal to a Rogue? Not at all, though it's not supposed to be. Although, Hiding in Plain Sight is a nice bit of help.


7. Trap skills - I must have missed the part where Rangers get Disable device as a class skill. Ironic that for the Ranger to have utility, the Ranger has to get a level of a different class. Do Rogues have to get Ranger levels to be better Rogues or more useful characters?

Telling the tempest Ranger to get monk or perhaps fighter for additional feat to gain utility speaks further to the weakness of the Ranger class (especially tempest). Which brings us to what the OP was requesting. Additional feat(s) for the Ranger. To say that the Ranger doesn't need additional feats because they can get it by not being a Ranger just validates the OP's argument.

Would you say the same to the Wizard who takes 2 levels of Rogue for Evasion, Trap Skills and UMD? Or the Cleric? Or the Favored Soul? Or any other class? We build multiclass builds for fun and utility, not necessarily because we must. The fact that the Ranger Capstone is more useful to the AA than the Tempest simply makes it an easier choice for the Tempest.

Speaking of UMD. My main was a Tempest (Ranger 18/Rogue 1/Fighter 1) before I TR'd into a Sorcerer... There were many times that his high UMD allowed him to res a dead cleric.


1. Fighter hit points > Ranger hit points.
2. Fighter to-hit > Ranger to-hit, once available feats and enhancements are taken into account.
3. Fighter Strength > Ranger Strength.
4. Fighter bonus feats means Fighters can pick what they get.
5. Fighter Tactics e.g., Stunning Blow. What is the tempest Ranger equivalent?

Absolutely irrelevant as Rangers are not Fighters. Simply put, if you want to roll a Fighter, by all means, do so. But don't go messing with the Ranger because you don't like it as is.

Most of us who play Rangers do so knowing that they're not as strong as fighters, as skilled as Rogues, as fast as Monks, as powerful as Clerics or as helpful with buffs as Bards... But show me one other class... Just one... That, as is, incorporates so many elements of those classes into one package. THAT is what Rangers are all about.

As for the suggestion of more feats... I'd love to have more feats for my ranger. Actually, I'd love to have more feats for all my toons. Give me 3 feats per lvl and I'll build a god, and it doesn't really matter what class or race. More feats would be nice, yes... But imo, they're absolutely not 'necessary'.

[mikesharpshooter]

rangers are very good as they are.
but archery does not work

[Svartelric]

snip

Ok, that's the way YOU like to play a Ranger, but it's not the best, the only or the supposed basic version of what a Ranger should be. It should be the best TWF class. Period.

It also has a lot of things that other classes do waaay better than Ranger, so your point is to specialize in one of those, and be subpar but decent in, say self heal, and be mediocre but happy? PFFFF.

[FrozenNova]

Ok, that's the way YOU like to play a Ranger, but it's not the best, the only or the supposed basic version of what a Ranger should be. It should be the best TWF class. Period.

According to what? The DDO release manual? That was true, for a time. Rangers were heralded as the strongest twf dps. The game changed. The manual's no longer particularly relevant.

[Thrudh]

In case anyone wants to do a tempest build: Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack are required - subtract these from the free Feats total; also, if you are a Tempest, you could care less about archery Feats (and if you're AA, it's the other way around).

You're doing it wrong if your Tempest never pulls out a bow, or your AA never pulls out two weapons.


I'm aiming for max DPS

Yeah, seriously wrong. If you're going for a max DPS Tempest, and you don't EVER use your free Manyshot and IPS feats, you're failing at your goal.

[Zenako]

One thing that often becomes clear in threads like this is which players have pretty much only run in "full groups/raid" and which have also spent time soloing. You can get away with being one trick ponies in groups/raids. You tend to end up as a soul stone with the same approach when by yourself.

Many of the features of the Ranger class that often get discounted by some are those same features which make them so survivable when solo or short manned.

I have run with awesome killing machine meatpuppets who would have a 7 second half life without a fully amped cleric slave on their butt 24/7. What they have to understand is that by doing so, they are cutting down the GROUP dps by needing the nanny tenders. This is one reason oft overlooked when groups used to compare times in speed runs of places like the shroud and had trouble understanding how ranger crews could do so well. No wasted slots.

[Jay203]

You're doing it wrong if your Tempest never pulls out a bow, or your AA never pulls out two weapons.

situational :p
if there's already another ranged member in party kiting the mob, it's better if you stay on ranged rather than trying to chase it down :D:D:D:D

[Zenako]

situational :p
if there's already another ranged member in party kiting the mob, it's better if you stay on ranged rather than trying to chase it down :D:D:D:D

Or if it is appropriate start nailing that sucker with effects to weaken its attacks and defenses. Cursespewing of Improved Destruction can help ensure the kiter keeps that aggro. Some other effects often are useful too. Run down the gamut of mods to drop on that dude. (heck just the normal amped up arrow and archer damage alone helps, swapping bows for effects can be a useful contribution if you don't want to nick the aggro away.)

There is a reason I typically have around 10 hot bars on screen on most characters...options...situations...right tools for the job...

[Jay203]

Or if it is appropriate start nailing that sucker with effects to weaken its attacks and defenses. Cursespewing of Improved Destruction can help ensure the kiter keeps that aggro. Some other effects often are useful too. Run down the gamut of mods to drop on that dude. (heck just the normal amped up arrow and archer damage alone helps, swapping bows for effects can be a useful contribution if you don't want to nick the aggro away.)

There is a reason I typically have around 10 hot bars on screen on most characters...options...situations...right tools for the job...

i have 4 hot bars at most at any given time
don't need more than that :):):)

[Zenako]

i have 4 hot bars at most at any given time
don't need more than that :):):)

In that case its my Ranger/Rogue with a bunch of twf sets as well as a row of situational bows, tons of clickies swaps for my fun and amusement and gear swaps as needed to make the rogue side effective. Then when needed, potions, scrolls (UMD for RD and HEAL scrolls), spells, and feat/enhancement clickies as well. (Lately I end up with a bar or two for quest do dads like Crystal cove or the various Cannith ones where you need to set torches or what nots...(big monitor helps with space issues...)

[FranOhmsford]

Also, healing:
CSW base is 3d6+6+15 is 31.5 base.
Running an ardor clickie with devotion II (3 AP) is 1+0.75+0.2 = 1.95 multiplier.
Running empower heal is 1+0.5 = 1.5 multiplier.
Healing amp on a human wearing dragontouched is 1.3*1.1*1.2 = 1.716 multiplier.
31.5*1.95*1.5*1.716 = 158 average per cast.
If you used maximize instead, you'd get 210 per cast instead.
And with some epic 1.3 amp from claw gloves too, you're up to 274, which is as close to 300 as you're going to get (and you will break 300 with good rolls, up to 340).
And is pretty **** good for a spell with 5s cooldown, considering you're also casting CMW to complement it.

Is that a lot of investment? Maybe. That's all the healing amp enhancements, devotion II, a spare feat for maximize, three minutes in the crafting hall for some ardor clickies, a bunch of rune crunching for the DT armor, and some epic fens for what is a great melee item anyway. It's still a lot of return, though.

If you didn't pick human, you lose out a lot - but you knew that when you started, I'm sure. Let's see what you should be healing for.
31.5 base (CSW caps at 15) * 2.05 (Devotion III and ardor) * 1.5 (emp heal) = 96 per cast, with no healing amp. Once you get your DT, this becomes a lot more useful, but it's still not human standard.

Being silly for a moment:
As a human with max amp, max amp gear and finger necklace, devotion 4 and maximize, and empower healing, you're getting
31.5*2.15*2.5*(1.4*1.1*1.2*1.3) = 406 per cast.

OK - My example - Elf Tempest lvl 15 - So no I didn't pick Human.

I get 40-45 hp back from Cure Serious Wounds {with Devotion III}
No Ardour
No emp Heal

Are you telling me that emp heal and Ardour more than double that on their own?

DT is from a pack that is rarely recommended.
I'm VIP yet it will be a long time before I do enough runs out in Reaver's to get the Armour sorted.
Epic Claw gloves? Really?


LMAO you have no idea how to play a ranger... is ok We all are noob once.


want a tempest ranger? you splash usualy good to splash monk for 2 free feats and some nice enhancments.

you completly ignoring fact rangers are not a one trick pony nor where they ever meant to be even if they build for tempest or AA they still should be able to do both range and melee.

Only thing a tempest ranger should be worryied about is not being able to fit in maxamize and empower healing for self healing.

but still if you go human take 2 lvl monk, should be able to fit in dodge, mobilty, spring attack, toughness, combat expertise, maxamise, whilrwind, empower healing, power attack, and kopesh.

That looks like a prety nice tempest ranger to me. cure serious wounds should hit for 300 ish easy.

.

Easy he said - Talking about Build - Not gear.

From what you're saying 300HP Cure Serious is pretty much maxed out with gear - Nothing easy about it.

[FrozenNova]

OK - My example - Elf Tempest lvl 15 - So no I didn't pick Human.

I get 40-45 hp back from Cure Serious Wounds {with Devotion III}
No Ardour
No emp Heal

Are you telling me that emp heal and Ardour more than double that on their own?

Yes.
The numbers are right there for you.
If you want the spell damage formula, it's in the second combat mechanics post in my sig.


DT is from a pack that is rarely recommended.
I'm VIP yet it will be a long time before I do enough runs out in Reaver's to get the Armour sorted.
Epic Claw gloves? Really?

I'm not seeing the problem. DT armour isn't hard to get, by any means, and you'll start in a level or two. Takes a little time, sure, but it's not difficult.
I don't understand your incredulity. Epic fens is one of the easiest epic packs. Moreover claw gloves are usually best in slot for most melees. Or is it just "Oh wow epic gear I'll never get that just because it's epic"?


Easy he said - Talking about Build - Not gear.

It was an estimate.
I don't blame the guy. Do you?
Moreover I deliberately left out guild healing amp buff. Base easily hits over 300 with that.


From what you're saying 300HP Cure Serious is pretty much maxed out with gear - Nothing easy about it.
Maxed out? DT armour and one epic item is 'maxed out' for you? Have fun.
Moreover it's not as though you need gloves to cast cure. You get a large chunk of that without the added 1.3 amp.

[Skavenaps]

That is what I want.

strong arguments.

i will use the same and i will say..

more feats for all classes but ranger.

[Aritukus]

I run my tempest with great love. I agree, they could use one more feat slot, due the incredible (incredible) feat prereq. for their PrE, which are all neutral-to-good feats (being very good in expansion set), yet it takes a lot free slots - or if not one free slot, then Rank 3 PrE could not be bound to any feat, in example.

Guys here give you all the needed strenght tempest (or ranger) has. Its melee jack-of-all-trades.


Let's break down your argument point by point.

Lets break down your, for now.


1. 30 point resists - Airship buffs and others in party can cast also.

I believe that Im not the only one who accidently (due to lag /irony) dies in a quest. Yes, shippies are open for everyone, but having the ability to cast Neat 30 resistances and then neat elemental absorbtions, its pretty much good for me. Also - perhaps stick to one famous forum quote: "If you need ship buffs, you are gimp." Not my opinion, but founds my opinion.


2. FOM - By the time Rangers can get this spell, many divines are already auto casting on party members or asking who needs fom?

Absolutly wrong attitude. You see, from all buffs you come across, one that ranger has (FoM, Resistances, Absorbs) are very powerful buffs. Yes, I could imagine having Death Ward (/irony) as well. Then, you forgot Barkskin (usefull buff, at least for my tempest) and Rams Might! A perfect, perfect selfbuff.


3. Manyshot - How well is that going to work after level 20? http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377250.
When the tempest Ranger is using his bow, he is not using his primary method of attack. Now if Manyshot added to his melee DPS simultaneously, now that would be a neat trick.

Yes, perhaps now in latest beta (or was), is Manyshot broken, but I find it very, very strong. When I pull out my bow, lets say one of +5 Holy Burst of Greater <something> Bane with Holy arrows and I pop out my manyshot with Human Versatility Damage Boost, I see very, very lovely damage output with range weapon of my choice. If you are not using manyshot+bow, you are doing something wrong.


4. Self-healing - Even you concede that to get better healing, the Ranger will have to trade some of his meager DPS. Or if not explicit DPS, at least a toughness feat for a class that already lags others in hit points. Though there is a prevelance of BYOH in leveling quests, melee DPS are wanted in elite ToDs, EVON6s, and EADQ2s for their ability to maximize their DPS not for their self-healing.

This is statement with absolutly no foundation. Did you EVER played tempest? With some-to decent healing amplification and very easy-to get Ardor Clickies or potions, Tempest without any METAMEGIC feats is absolutly great healer on-every-level and on-cap as well. I ALWYAS fancy any sort of self-healing, and ranger does it good. If yours not enough, you are doing something wrong.


5. Evasion - Any class can get this by getting 2 rogue or 2 monk.

Every class doesnt get it FOR FREE!


6. Stealth - Really?

Dont argue here. I dont use it.


7. Trap skills - I must have missed the part where Rangers get Disable device as a class skill. Ironic that for the Ranger to have utility, the Ranger has to get a level of a different class. Do Rogues have to get Ranger levels to be better Rogues or more useful characters?

Now, were you not saying that all class can get evasion by simply trading 2 levels for monks or rouges? How empty your argument is. Yes, he was aware of that rangers dont get the skill. But Tempests are FREE TO DUALCLASS actually up to 2 levels (current metagame, or if you wish - current capstone is not that important for tempests). Just one of this level gets you FULLY OPERATING TRAP MONKEY. Simply as that. Only one level. Still got your evasion for two levels - and you argue here with such statement?


Telling the tempest Ranger to get monk or perhaps fighter for additional feat to gain utility speaks further to the weakness of the Ranger class (especially tempest). Which brings us to what the OP was requesting. Additional feat(s) for the Ranger. To say that the Ranger doesn't need additional feats because they can get it by not being a Ranger just validates the OP's argument.

No, it speaks for its versatility, which RANGER class is. Choose to take two FRTs, you have two spare feats to play with (perhaps maxi. and quicken for your VERY LOW heals - please dont start on telling me you cant pick those on FRT bonus feats, as I know that, as well as you know you can barter with other feats in progress of leveling your tempest.), OP is pointless. Ranger DOES NOT NEED EXTRA FEATS if you FOUND your and OPs opinion on these drama-making arguments. It simply doenst.


Ok now to some of the stuff you left out in comparing Fighters to Rangers.

1. Fighter hit points > Ranger hit points, pointless. >>> Is 650 not enough for a tempest?
2. Fighter to-hit > Ranger to-hit, once available feats and enhancements are taken into account. >>> Perhaps in expansion it will matter, but I had literally never a problem to land any of my hits.
3. Fighter Strength > Ranger Strength. >>> Only case is the Kensei for Power Surge, other is like what? If your tempest is running around with 36 STR, you are doing something wrong.
4. Fighter bonus feats means Fighters can pick what they get. >>> I proved you with solid arguments that YOU DO NOT NEED THEM. They sure would be handy though, as for every class in-game.
5. Fighter Tactics e.g., Stunning Blow. What is the tempest Ranger equivalent? WHAT does prevent you from taking SB on your tempest? I have it, and its fantastic. YOU, again, are doing something wrong.


If a Fighter isn't satisfied with TWF, he can always go THF or go S&B. What viable melee options are there for Rangers other than TWF?

You see, again. Your arguments are with no fundation to your goals. Ranger can swap to bow and it adds to him more versatility then to a Kensai starting S&Bing over the place. Its just that simple.

To sum it up. Rangers could use a little lower PrE prereq., thats for sure. But they dont really need extra feats. It would be neat to have them, but its just pure speculation and fundamentaly drama-crying result of my-class-isnt-good-enough-becouse-I-play-it-wrong.

Now what you ARE DOING wrong is that you play your tempest AS PURE DPS class, which is bad thing to do. Ranger, any ranger, goes way beyond absolutism of a singel combat type.

[FranOhmsford]

Yes.
The numbers are right there for you.
If you want the spell damage formula, it's in the second combat mechanics post in my sig.

I'm not seeing the problem. DT armour isn't hard to get, by any means, and you'll start in a level or two. Takes a little time, sure, but it's not difficult.
I don't understand your incredulity. Epic fens is one of the easiest epic packs. Moreover claw gloves are usually best in slot for most melees. Or is it just "Oh wow epic gear I'll never get that just because it's epic"?

It was an estimate.
I don't blame the guy. Do you?
Moreover I deliberately left out guild healing amp buff. Base easily hits over 300 with that.

Maxed out? DT armour and one epic item is 'maxed out' for you? Have fun.
Moreover it's not as though you need gloves to cast cure. You get a large chunk of that without the added 1.3 amp.

DT Armour isn't hard to get? Maybe not for you.

Monastery and SoS are Very Very Hard quests. {SoS is Super Hard to get a group for in the first place}.

I have 4 Capped Characters
Others apart from my Tempest closing on Cap
And still more coming up behind.

I've so far cleansed one Greensteel item {My Goggles on My Cleric}.
{Not counting Crystal Cove} I've made exactly ONE Epic item {The Utility Vest for my Trap Monkey}.

Epic Fens may not be the Hardest Epics - I believe it comes in ahead of Carnival and Sentinels though in difficulty.
Isn't E-VoN 1 supposed to be easier too?

I've been hearing plenty about Ardour clickies going down the drain when the Expansion comes out - Not really an issue for me as I've never used em - My Cleric's/Souls and Bards don't need em thank goodness {Too many clickies in this game already}.

When you defend him by talking about Hard to get End-game gear yes I do actually - It's just wrong to come out with exaggerated totals and say they're easy to get.

I keep hearing this talk about Everybody being able to heal up to full with Cure Serious/Critical - Then I keep seeing these rundowns that include Feats that are unlikely to be taken, Gear that is hard to get and Ship Buffs that aren't always on {or even available to many}.
Also Rangers don't get 1000s of SPs - Even at cap you're probably looking at somewhere in the region of 600-700 {a bit higher on an AA - Forced into taking Mental Toughness}.
Paladins are constantly using their SPs for Short Term Buffs too.

If I go Pure 20 Tempest Ranger I get 7 Feats as an Elf.
First 5 are taken up with:

Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Toughness
Improved Crit: Slashing

I believe Oversized Two Weapon Fighting is also a non-free feat {one of the two}.

Which leaves one feat.

Why is it that Multiclassing is so heavily favoured for Rangers?
Because they're too weak comparatively to other classes Pure.

[alexp80]

DT Armour isn't hard to get? Maybe not for you.

Monastery and SoS are Very Very Hard quests. {SoS is Super Hard to get a group for in the first place}.

solo them casual. to get dt you don't need kill Sorjeck



I have 4 Capped Characters
Others apart from my Tempest closing on Cap
And still more coming up behind.


this tells me you have no interest in working to make better toons.
It's a matter of dedication, if you are not interested don't whine about that.



I've so far cleansed one Greensteel item {My Goggles on My Cleric}.
{Not counting Crystal Cove} I've made exactly ONE Epic item {The Utility Vest for my Trap Monkey}.


instead of spending time leveling your nth toon, farm epics



I've been hearing plenty about Ardour clickies going down the drain when the Expansion comes out - Not really an issue for me as I've never used em - My Cleric's/Souls and Bards don't need em thank goodness {Too many clickies in this game already}.


You're knowledge of the game is really poor.
If you are not interested in put some dedication just play a barb and move on.



When you defend him by talking about Hard to get End-game gear yes I do actually - It's just wrong to come out with exaggerated totals and say they're easy to get.


They are quite easy to get actually, not QUICK.





Why is it that Multiclassing is so heavily favoured for Rangers?
Because they're too weak comparatively to other classes Pure.

No, because it's a class focused on ranged + melee. Many are not interested in the ranged features, so they mix up.

I see TONS of multiclass rogues, monks, fighters, barbs, bards. They are all weak too?

[FrozenNova]

DT Armour isn't hard to get? Maybe not for you.
Monastery and SoS are Very Very Hard quests. {SoS is Super Hard to get a group for in the first place}.

If you think so, okay. Maybe having good gear just isn't for you. I had no trouble. Sure, SoS is hard to group for, but healing amp isn't a soverign rune. You don't need to run it more than once on casual. Even you can manage that, surely.

Not really an issue for me as I've never used em - My Cleric's/Souls and Bards don't need em thank goodness {Too many clickies in this game already}.
The following may or may not be pure opinion: not taking a free additional 0.25 boost to your gear spell multiplier and freeing up a slot in the process when there is no downside to doing so is foolishness.


When you defend him by talking about Hard to get End-game gear yes I do actually - It's just wrong to come out with exaggerated totals and say they're easy to get.
I'm sorry, would you prefer we kept all talk of balance restricted to the range of your level 15 elf?
They're not exaggerated if they're typical. The last number I posted was "exaggerated" (hell, it can get higher if you want it). That's why I called it silly. The previous numbers were typical results for competant rangers.


I keep hearing this talk about Everybody being able to heal up to full with Cure Serious/Critical - Then I keep seeing these rundowns that include Feats that are unlikely to be taken, Gear that is hard to get and Ship Buffs that aren't always on {or even available to many}.
Also Rangers don't get 1000s of SPs - Even at cap you're probably looking at somewhere in the region of 600-700 {a bit higher on an AA - Forced into taking Mental Toughness}.
Paladins are constantly using their SPs for Short Term Buffs too.

Feats that arn't likely to be taken? If you play a melee ranger without splashing and taking a metamagic, then you've done the equivalent of building a paladin without toughness. Dumb choices arn't supposed to be rewarded.
Gear that is hard to get? Guess what, for a barbarian to be the best he can be, he needs gear that is hard to get too. As does a wizard. And a monk. And.. everyone. Complaining that you need gear to bring out a class' potential is among the silliest things I've heard recently.

(Why do you think I did the original numbers without the airship buff? -.- people complain anyway.)

I've done the bit where I geared up a self healing melee with exactly the same kit you want on a ranger. It wasn't hard. It was somewhat slow, but it certainly wasn't difficult.


If I go Pure 20 Tempest Ranger I get 7 Feats as an Elf.
First 5 are taken up with:
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Toughness
Improved Crit: Slashing
I believe Oversized Two Weapon Fighting is also a non-free feat {one of the two}.
Which leaves one feat.
Why is it that Multiclassing is so heavily favoured for Rangers?
Because they're too weak comparatively to other classes Pure.
This is not how logic works.
Rangers multiclass into fighter / monk for extra feats extremely well. Balancing rangers in terms of giving them free feats and ignoring their capacity to multiclass would defeat the point of balancing: you have to consider what is actually being played. On the other hand, balancing rangers by buffing 19/20 and hence removing their capacity to multiclass takes away the primary appeal of the class, and is really rather pointless.

[Purgatory]

OK - My example - Elf Tempest lvl 15 - So no I didn't pick Human.

I get 40-45 hp back from Cure Serious Wounds {with Devotion III}
No Ardour
No emp Heal

Are you telling me that emp heal and Ardour more than double that on their own?

DT is from a pack that is rarely recommended.
I'm VIP yet it will be a long time before I do enough runs out in Reaver's to get the Armour sorted.
Epic Claw gloves? Really?



Easy he said - Talking about Build - Not gear.

From what you're saying 300HP Cure Serious is pretty much maxed out with gear - Nothing easy about it.

1. sorry you picked a horrible race for a tempest. (that was your choice live with it)
2. Max and emp healing is not from gear....
3. Superior potency IV Ring is a bit rare but the pots that give 60% boost are not.
4. getting all the healing enhancments does not come from gear.

These 4 things alone should get you into the 200ish range if you want get into the 300 your going to need gear for healing amp.

200 is a whole lot better then 50 last time i checked. and eventualy u can work towards the 300 while you gear up.

and yes ador and emp healing alone will put you into the low 100's

[bigolbear]

So make Weapon Focus the feat requirement - It already is for Deepwood Sniper

Mental Toughness is just plain wrong as a feat requirement - It has no benefit for Rangers who shouldn't be running out of SPs anyway.

Or make it a choice of Mental Toughness, Weapon Focus Ranged or Zen Archery then your Arcanes can use MT, Divines get to use Zen Archery and Rangers and Artis can take Weapon Focus: Ranged as their PreReq.

Don't get me wrong - Rangers aren't as feat starved as some {Paladins} BUT they're not exactly overflowing with feats either {Fighters/Wizards/Artis}.

your one of THOSE rangers arent you.. the ones that dont know they have a blue bar or just what they can actualy do with it!

honestly the biggest problem with rangers is peoples insistance that they should all be bow weilding elves that never swing a mele weapon and forget they actualy have spells. The alternative 'im a tempest dual weilder and i have no use for a bow or a sheild' is just as bad.

Ranger is one of the most versatile classes out there - if played right and utilising ALL its abilities it is a fantastic class. The big issue is the players, people not realising how to use all the class's advantages in a synergistic fashion.

Regarding feats: rangers certainly dont need more feats, they actualy get a heck of a lot as part of the class. Come the enhancement pass I think rangers should get class toughness but thats it realy.

Ranger isnt weak, its just hard to play well.

[FranOhmsford]

I'm sorry, would you prefer we kept all talk of balance restricted to the range of your level 15 elf?
They're not exaggerated if they're typical. The last number I posted was "exaggerated" (hell, it can get higher if you want it). That's why I called it silly. The previous numbers were typical results for competant rangers.

Feats that arn't likely to be taken? If you play a melee ranger without splashing and taking a metamagic, then you've done the equivalent of building a paladin without toughness. Dumb choices arn't supposed to be rewarded.
Gear that is hard to get? Guess what, for a barbarian to be the best he can be, he needs gear that is hard to get too. As does a wizard. And a monk. And.. everyone. Complaining that you need gear to bring out a class' potential is among the silliest things I've heard recently.

(Why do you think I did the original numbers without the airship buff? -.- people complain anyway.)

I've done the bit where I geared up a self healing melee with exactly the same kit you want on a ranger. It wasn't hard. It was somewhat slow, but it certainly wasn't difficult.

This is not how logic works.
Rangers multiclass into fighter / monk for extra feats extremely well. Balancing rangers in terms of giving them free feats and ignoring their capacity to multiclass would defeat the point of balancing: you have to consider what is actually being played. On the other hand, balancing rangers by buffing 19/20 and hence removing their capacity to multiclass takes away the primary appeal of the class, and is really rather pointless.

I'd prefer if people actually considered other levels other than 20 when talking about the game - My Lvl 15 was an example - There are 18 other Levels as well as 15 and 20 you know.

Rangers SHOULD NOT HAVE TO SPLASH! - That is what this thread is about - The fact that you're so adamant that a Pure Ranger is totally gimped just proves it.

As for Ardour - Well I'm sorry but continuously drinking Pots {I assume you're talking about pots as clickies most certainly don't free up item slots} isn't my idea of fun.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of Primary Appeal - Considering the number of people who roll up gimped rangers {by your standards} I'd suggest that this isn't the Primary Appeal at all.
BTW I had played almost every other class in the game before I finally got around to playing a Ranger as the kiting idea is something I've never been a fan of.
I still don't have an AA - I've tried Deepwood for flavour {basically a Tempest in Disguise as from Lvl 7 onwards I'm taking Fighter levels.}.
Rangers are in trouble atm in DDO - They need help - Suggesting that they're fine because everyone Knows to splash Fighter or Monk on them is a joke.


your one of THOSE rangers arent you.. the ones that dont know they have a blue bar or just what they can actualy do with it!


Ranger Spells:

Ram's Might - I have on permanently
Longstrider - I use this till Striding gear covers it.
Jump - Obvious {This replaces Longstrider}.
Resist Energy - Mandatory to have at hand {On bar}

Prot: Energy
Barkskin

Cure Mod
Neutralize Poison

Summon Monster IV or FoM
Cure Serious

Yes I know what my Blue Bar is for.

Pity Rangers have no real choices when it comes to spells.

With 253 Spell Points however I'm not going to get very far with Cure Mod/Serious. {Especially if I try to Emp them}.
Yes this is before SP gear so add another 100 for Magi and 50 for the Cunning Trinket + a +6 Wis item
Still barely clearing 500 sps there
AND I have a base 12 Wis + a +2 Tome. {I didn't dump Wisdom as is so often recommended}.

[Delssar]

With 253 Spell Points however I'm not going to get very far with Cure Mod/Serious. {Especially if I try to Emp them}.
Yes this is before SP gear so add another 100 for Magi and 50 for the Cunning Trinket + a +6 Wis item
Still barely clearing 500 sps there
AND I have a base 12 Wis + a +2 Tome. {I didn't dump Wisdom as is so often recommended}.


So at level 20 you'll have how much sp? Because my ranger who's a str/dex pure AA has around 750sp and I started with I think 10 or 11 wis. (dont quote me)

[FranOhmsford]

So at level 20 you'll have how much sp? Because my ranger who's a str/dex pure AA has around 750sp and I started with I think 10 or 11 wis. (dont quote me)

AAs are forced into taking Mental Toughness - It's a PreReq.

AAs will always have more SP than an equivalent Tempest.

[FrozenNova]

As for Ardour - Well I'm sorry but continuously drinking Pots {I assume you're talking about pots as clickies most certainly don't free up item slots} isn't my idea of fun.

Of course they do. Swap clickie weapon in, use clickie, swap clickie weapon out. It takes all of two seconds.
Using one clickie every three minutes ruins your day? Well, never play a paladin, I guess. Or a monk. Or a barb. Or a caster. Or a ranger.

Then again, this is going to be invalid once the expansion rolls out, at which point it's looking like you'll no longer be able to avoid freeing a slot for a devotion item.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of Primary Appeal - Considering the number of people who roll up gimped rangers {by your standards} I'd suggest that this isn't the Primary Appeal at all.
This is the forums, and the forums play the metagame. The ranger's place in the metagame is "that self healing fighter with traps, evasion, umd and manyshot". If someone wants to play a pure tempest for the distinctly lacking ranged atkspd boost on their capstone, that's up to them.


Rangers are in trouble atm in DDO - They need help - Suggesting that they're fine because everyone Knows to splash Fighter or Monk on them is a joke.

This is true, to an extent. They need to contribute more meaningful damage to a party even against non-favored enemies. A Tempest III ability to target an enemy and label it as a temporary favored enemy until the next rest would go a long way towards this. Yet, this is despite their capacity to splash, not an alternative. People don't splash because ranger is bad - they just wouldn't play ranger. People splash because ranger 19/20 is not useful to a Tempest, and there's nothing wrong with that. Your alternatives are: not buff 19/20: everyone still splashes; or, buff 19/20: rangers don't get any stronger, since in recieving the buffs they lose traps, haste boost, and/or self healing. People will splash on tempests because it's part of the class until made otherwise.

[Svartelric]

Rangers don't do traps, rogues do. The point is: why are ranger forced to splash or spec ina way that makes them be something other than what a ranger should be? I would like to see a Ranger class that is viable even without being splashed or heal spec'd or whatever else... is that so unreasonable?

[FranOhmsford]

Of course they do. Swap clickie weapon in, use clickie, swap clickie weapon out. It takes all of two seconds.
Using one clickie every three minutes ruins your day? Well, never play a paladin, I guess. Or a monk. Or a barb. Or a caster. Or a ranger.

Then again, this is going to be invalid once the expansion rolls out, at which point it's looking like you'll no longer be able to avoid freeing a slot for a devotion item.

This is the forums, and the forums play the metagame. The ranger's place in the metagame is "that self healing fighter with traps, evasion, umd and manyshot". If someone wants to play a pure tempest for the distinctly lacking ranged atkspd boost on their capstone, that's up to them.

This is true, to an extent. They need to contribute more meaningful damage to a party even against non-favored enemies. A Tempest III ability to target an enemy and label it as a temporary favored enemy until the next rest would go a long way towards this. Yet, this is despite their capacity to splash, not an alternative. People don't splash because ranger is bad - they just wouldn't play ranger. People splash because ranger 19/20 is not useful to a Tempest, and there's nothing wrong with that. Your alternatives are: not buff 19/20: everyone still splashes; or, buff 19/20: rangers don't get any stronger, since in recieving the buffs they lose traps, haste boost, and/or self healing. People will splash on tempests because it's part of the class until made otherwise.



Rangers don't do traps, rogues do. The point is: why are ranger forced to splash or spec ina way that makes them be something other than what a ranger should be? I would like to see a Ranger class that is viable even without being splashed or heal spec'd or whatever else... is that so unreasonable?


In fact - Rangers SHOULD be able to do traps {Snares especially} - Search, Spot and Listen are all Ranger abilities - I'm really not sure why Disable isn't also a Ranger ability.
Keep Open Locks as Rogue/Arti only - Wizards, Sorcs and Bards should all get Knock {Can't remember if Bards get it tbh but they should}.

I've got nothing against Ranger/Rogues - It should be a viable build BUT:

It SHOULD NOT be 100 times better than Pure 20 Ranger!

I'm not asking for 18/2, 12/6/2 etc. builds to be made obsolete - I'm asking for PURE 20 builds to be made useful.

[Svartelric]

In fact - Rangers SHOULD be able to do traps {Snares especially} - Search, Spot and Listen are all Ranger abilities - I'm really not sure why Disable isn't also a Ranger ability.


So far all traps in DDO have been mechanical, why would a ranger know how to disable them? But that's beside the point, for the rest I agree with you 100%.

[bigolbear]

Ranger Spells:

Ram's Might - I have on permanently
Longstrider - I use this till Striding gear covers it.
Jump - Obvious {This replaces Longstrider}.
Resist Energy - Mandatory to have at hand {On bar}

Prot: Energy
Barkskin

Cure Mod
Neutralize Poison

Summon Monster IV or FoM
Cure Serious

Yes I know what my Blue Bar is for.

Pity Rangers have no real choices when it comes to spells.

With 253 Spell Points however I'm not going to get very far with Cure Mod/Serious. {Especially if I try to Emp them}.
Yes this is before SP gear so add another 100 for Magi and 50 for the Cunning Trinket + a +6 Wis item
Still barely clearing 500 sps there
AND I have a base 12 Wis + a +2 Tome. {I didn't dump Wisdom as is so often recommended}.

Well as a comparison:
My ranger: (pointblank - WF tempest) Character i played on devourer, transfered to galanda.
Had 500+ sp, I was warforge and thus skipped the self healing potential of ranger, but im aware this is posible on a ranger, especialy for humans and half elves, especialy if metamagic feats have been taken.

Thats a warforge ranger with a dumped wisdom stat... most of those sp came from gear - importantly gear i could swap out after buffing.

At the start of quests Id buff the party with 'appropraite resists', barkskin for those with decent ac, FOM for all, jump on request, mass longstrider, prots as and when needed during the quest.

You see back before ship buffs that was one hell of a contribution - it was frankly 300+ sp the cleric didnt have to spend on buffs. now we have ship buffs I guess the resists portion is some what mitigated.

It also meant that the other meles, could change to more offensive/defensive gear - with me taking care of their runspeed for example it generaly freed up their boot slots or one of thier ring slots.

Infact probably the biggest proxy nerf to rangers and paladins was ship buffs, previously a ranger or pally could simply cast the resists they needed - whereas a fighter or barb would have to wear gear for that. The same goes for striding and natural armour on a ranger and deathblock on a pally.

Ok so clearly you do know you have a mana bar, but in comparison to other aspects of your character you have done little with it. Thats what im getting at. Rangers can be effective party buffers, and given sufficient heal amp/devotion items can be competant off healers. Hell in my example character - I had the healing spells and a devotion item, so even tho my own self healing sucked i could rescue the squishies.

[FranOhmsford]

Well as a comparison:
My ranger: (pointblank - WF tempest) Character i played on devourer, transfered to galanda.
Had 500+ sp, I was warforge and thus skipped the self healing potential of ranger, but im aware this is posible on a ranger, especialy for humans and half elves, especialy if metamagic feats have been taken.

Thats a warforge ranger with a dumped wisdom stat... most of those sp came from gear - importantly gear i could swap out after buffing.

At the start of quests Id buff the party with 'appropraite resists', barkskin for those with decent ac, FOM for all, jump on request, mass longstrider, prots as and when needed during the quest.

You see back before ship buffs that was one hell of a contribution - it was frankly 300+ sp the cleric didnt have to spend on buffs. now we have ship buffs I guess the resists portion is some what mitigated.

It also meant that the other meles, could change to more offensive/defensive gear - with me taking care of their runspeed for example it generaly freed up their boot slots or one of thier ring slots.

Infact probably the biggest proxy nerf to rangers and paladins was ship buffs, previously a ranger or pally could simply cast the resists they needed - whereas a fighter or barb would have to wear gear for that. The same goes for striding and natural armour on a ranger and deathblock on a pally.

Ok so clearly you do know you have a mana bar, but in comparison to other aspects of your character you have done little with it. Thats what im getting at. Rangers can be effective party buffers, and given sufficient heal amp/devotion items can be competant off healers. Hell in my example character - I had the healing spells and a devotion item, so even tho my own self healing sucked i could rescue the squishies.

Let's say your talking about lvl 20 here ^.

I'll assume this was before Crystal Cove - So No Cunning Trinket for an extra 50 sps.

I'll also assume you were using a Wizardry VI item max {Not an Archmagi item}.

That means that no matter what - Once you put your actual questing gear on - You had a maximum of 350 sps.

Probably a lot less if you were truly using all those buffs on entire parties.

That really isn't much for healing use - Especially if you wish to save some for short term buffs {More a Pally problem this}.


Still - The main thing for me is that no-one here is saying Pure 20 Ranger is a good build {Heck from what I've seen anyone choosing to play a Pure 20 Tempest is gonna be seen as gimped}.
YET anyone asking for a boost to Pure Rangers is jumped on as though they'd suggested nerfing Chocolate!

[Aerendil]

This thread should never have made it past the first page. Wow.

Melee Rangers can be just as feat as starved as every other melee TWF class (except Fighters and Monks, who have a bit of an advantage). However, if you're struggling to fit all the feats you want on your Ranger, try a TWF Paladin or Bard sometime :)
(eg. Bard Warchanter prereq's = weapon focus and power attack. Throw in the 3 TWF feats, toughness, and improved crit, and that leaves you with enough feats for....hmm...nothing).

As others have mentioned, splashing a monk or fighter level (or 2) helps solve this, and is a common way to getting around it. Melee Bards do the exact same thing.

With luck, the upcoming enhancement pass will take the heat off feat pre-reqs for PrEs, and focus moreso on wise spending of APs and stat/level pre-reqs. If/when that comes into effect, that possibly frees up 3 feats for you should you decide you no longer want dodge/mob/spring attack.

[Svartelric]

This thread should never have made it past the first page. Wow.

Melee Rangers can be just as feat as starved as every other melee TWF class (except Fighters and Monks, who have a bit of an advantage). However, if you're struggling to fit all the feats you want on your Ranger, try a TWF Paladin or Bard sometime :)
(eg. Bard Warchanter prereq's = weapon focus and power attack. Throw in the 3 TWF feats, toughness, and improved crit, and that leaves you with enough feats for....hmm...nothing).

As others have mentioned, splashing a monk or fighter level (or 2) helps solve this, and is a common way to getting around it. Melee Bards do the exact same thing.

With luck, the upcoming enhancement pass will take the heat off feat pre-reqs for PrEs, and focus moreso on wise spending of APs and stat/level pre-reqs. If/when that comes into effect, that possibly frees up 3 feats for you should you decide you no longer want dodge/mob/spring attack.


And again, I'll repeat that I'd like to see Rangers be more like they're supposed to be (both in P&P and in DDO), that is the best TWF class of all; Rangers shouldn't have to splash to be viable (poor game design); having to choose between a decent dodge % and other feats is a solution.. how?

Please, provide intelligent answers next time, or don't bother replying to the thread, as it "should never have made it past the first page"; btw, that might mean that a lot of people care about the subject, whether or not my first post was (clearly) a provocative way to start a conversation - if you don't care, what do you want? Do you want us to agree with you and that's it?

[Aerendil]

And again, I'll repeat that I'd like to see Rangers be more like they're supposed to be (both in P&P and in DDO), that is the best TWF class of all; Rangers shouldn't have to splash to be viable (poor game design); having to choose between a decent dodge % and other feats is a solution.. how?

Please, provide intelligent answers next time, or don't bother replying to the thread, as it "should never have made it past the first page"; btw, that might mean that a lot of people care about the subject, whether or not my first post was (clearly) a provocative way to start a conversation - if you don't care, what do you want? Do you want us to agree with you and that's it?

Trust me, I care. I've lobbied for certain changes to DDO for a long, long time (to no avail, not surprisingly). Some of them involving Rangers.

My point is that several other classes have it worse than Rangers for feat-starvation, and making this a "Rangers need more feats!" issue makes Rangers look like whiners.
We're feat-starved if we want a full setup of great feats, yes. But we also get 9 free feats, plus Evasion and Hide in Plain Sight, favoured enemies, etc. We're in a MUCH better situation than some other classes.

I do agree it's a sad state that certain feats have become "must haves" due to the way DDO has been implemented, making your character far less viable if you don't have them. But there generally is still some semblance of choice, even if it is limited to a mere 1 feat.

I'd like 20 feats on my Ranger too, but I can't have everything :) So I've had to compromise.

PS - Rangers in PnP aren't necessarily the "masters of TWF". They're naturally better at it, yes, but anyone can TWF, and some of the abilities others can pair with TWF make them just as deadly, if not deadlier.

[Svartelric]

PS - Rangers in PnP aren't necessarily the "masters of TWF". They're naturally better at it, yes, but anyone can TWF, and some of the abilities others can pair with TWF make them just as deadly, if not deadlier.

I can see your point and agree on most of what you said, except maybe for this last statement... anyway I'm glad a lot of people, whether they simply wanted to add their take or express their disgust (thank you all!) at my original post, have kept the discussion going and on top of the page... who knows, maybe some dev will look at it and think that Rangers and other classes need attention, instead of thinking about pets and whatnot.

[Aashrym]

And again, I'll repeat that I'd like to see Rangers be more like they're supposed to be (both in P&P and in DDO), that is the best TWF class of all.

I disagree with this statement. There is no reason a ranger should be better at TWF than a fighter simply because the feats were free. Rangers do have other benefits granted to them.

I agree rangers could use some attention but more feats isn't really the direction I would go with looking at how many feats they actually do get for free. The changes to the enhancements would be the place for some ranger love, and I still vote for giving them actual pets like druids and artificers.

[Aerendil]

I disagree with this statement. There is no reason a ranger should be better at TWF than a fighter simply because the feats were free. Rangers do have other benefits granted to them.

I agree rangers could use some attention but more feats isn't really the direction I would go with looking at how many feats they actually do get for free. The changes to the enhancements would be the place for some ranger love, and I still vote for giving them actual pets like druids and artificers.

Yep, agreed.
And I believe the enhancement pass will be where we'll see the changes, based on the few tidbits we've seen from Eladrin and the other devs.

(i.e. last time it was brought up in the enhancement overpass thread, it was let slip that Tempest's "capstone" of sorts will be full offhand str damage. Fyi for those unaware. Oh, and obviously subject to change before it hits open beta or whatever on Llama).

[Svartelric]

There is no reason a ranger should be better at TWF than a fighter

The reason is: that's what the Ranger is all about in D&D (and technically that was also intended for DDO- read here: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Ranger).

Also, note that Ranger gets both fighting style as a compensation for not having an animal companion, not because it a free gift to the class; the devs should start working on fixing this, as companions are apparently something that DDO can handle (see Artificer and Druid).

So, what I think is:

- only one fighting style, but more feats;
- animal companion;
- improved spells/spellcasting.

That should do it. If someone has to say that Rangers are much better off than other classes, they should probably voice their concerns about those classes in another thread, unless they are trying to show off their difficulty (as in loss of attention or poor logical mental processes) at following the subject of a conversation. And I don't say this with the intention to offend anybody, it's just that I'm really annoyed by the constant "what do you have to complain about rangers? other classes are worse" in a thread which is obviously about Rangers and how I'd like the Ranger class to be fixed.

[Dagolar]

All Rangers need is the ability to choose two of three paths [Two-Weapon, Ranged, Animal Companion].
That ought cover them.

[Enoach]

I find when people are discussing being "Feat starved" or needing more feats usually has less to do with the number of feats a class gets and more to do with the number of "Customization Feats" they get.

Not including the normal feats everyone gets from 1 to 20, or Racial Feat bonus such as human or half-elf

This list is based off of 20 Levels in class

Artificer: 16 Total Feats - 11 not customizable, 5 Are customizable from a list of 16 feats
Barbarian: 9 Total Feats - not customizable
Bard: 11 Total Feats - not customizable
Cleric: 1 Total Feats - not customizable
Favored Soul: 8 Total Feats - 1 not customizable, 4 are Subject to Religion Choice, 3 are limited to one of four Elements
Fighter: 12 Total Feats - 1 not customizable, 11 customizable from a list of 63 Feats
Monk: 29 Total Feats - 26 not customizable, 3 customizable from a list of 21 Feats
Paladin: 9 Total Feats - Not customizable
Ranger: 18 Total Feats - 13 not customizable, 5 Favored Enemy from list of 23 Types
Rogue: 11 Total Feats - 7 not customizable, 4 from a list of 6 Feats
Sorcerer: 1 Total Feat - not customizable
Wizard: 7 Total Feats - 2 not customizable, 5 from a list of 18 feats


As can be seen from the Class Extra Feats, ranger is not near the bottom of the list. However, the feats granted do not always contribute to the Build. What is a possible change for this?


Change Ranger back to Pen and Paper, where the Path is chosen - Thus a Bow Ranger forgo's Melee Feats and TWF Ranger forgo's Bow Feats - of course this would mean Rangers would lose feats, but wouldn't be burdened with Feats they won't use.
Make these feats that the ranger gets customizable based on a list of TWF and Bow feats and possibly Survival Type Feats

[Thayion516]

I find when people are discussing being "Feat starved" or needing more feats usually has less to do with the number of feats a class gets and more to do with the number of "Customization Feats" they get.

Not including the normal feats everyone gets from 1 to 20, or Racial Feat bonus such as human or half-elf

This list is based off of 20 Levels in class

Artificer: 16 Total Feats - 11 not customizable, 5 Are customizable from a list of 16 feats
Barbarian: 9 Total Feats - not customizable
Bard: 11 Total Feats - not customizable
Cleric: 1 Total Feats - not customizable
Favored Soul: 8 Total Feats - 1 not customizable, 4 are Subject to Religion Choice, 3 are limited to one of four Elements
Fighter: 12 Total Feats - 1 not customizable, 11 customizable from a list of 63 Feats
Monk: 29 Total Feats - 26 not customizable, 3 customizable from a list of 21 Feats
Paladin: 9 Total Feats - Not customizable
Ranger: 18 Total Feats - 13 not customizable, 5 Favored Enemy from list of 23 Types
Rogue: 11 Total Feats - 7 not customizable, 4 from a list of 6 Feats
Sorcerer: 1 Total Feat - not customizable
Wizard: 7 Total Feats - 2 not customizable, 5 from a list of 18 feats


As can be seen from the Class Extra Feats, ranger is not near the bottom of the list. However, the feats granted do not always contribute to the Build. What is a possible change for this?


Change Ranger back to Pen and Paper, where the Path is chosen - Thus a Bow Ranger forgo's Melee Feats and TWF Ranger forgo's Bow Feats - of course this would mean Rangers would lose feats, but wouldn't be burdened with Feats they won't use.
Make these feats that the ranger gets customizable based on a list of TWF and Bow feats and possibly Survival Type Feats


This tells me Rangers are exactly OK. Actually they have more feats then most. Only Monks have more. 5 other classes have NO choices at all!

Only addition i could possible see is Enhancement Toughness 1 and 2. Justified by being a physical damage dealing class.
OR
Tempest 2 and 3 = 10hps + 10hps.

The reason that the Best Tempest Ranger build in game is not 20 ranger is that the Capstone is ****. Levels 19 and 20 bring NOTHING to the table. and LOOSING those 2 levels have ZERO NEGATIVE effect on the class. So guess what? your dahm right ill trade them for 2 levels that will improve my class.

Been playing rangers for 3 yrs now, Exploiter Ranger as my main. He functions great in all content as far as im concerned. As the game changes i will rework his lives/gear/build to fit the season, but he Always be a Ranger primary build. And he is neither Melee or Ranged... He is Both, as a good Ranger should be.

But then again.. I'm Awesome! BAM!!