Incite on eChimera's fang

[derping]

After reading numerous contradicting posts I am at a loss to say whether the separate incite bonuses on a 3 sentential DM tank (10%,15%,20%) stack or not.

This is very important to many eFang user tanks, as it frees up a lot of slots on a tank's gear layout. Has anyone tested this? Would appreciate any feedback, thanks

[MaximusParthas]

After reading numerous contradicting posts I am at a loss to say whether the separate incite bonuses on a 3 sentential DM tank (10%,15%,20%) stack or not.

This is very important to many eFang user tanks, as it frees up a lot of slots on a tank's gear layout. Has anyone tested this? Would appreciate any feedback, thanks

I'm still not convinced incite has any effect whatsoever. 10% or 1000%
I've continuously stolen agro on a rogue with -120% and too often lost it on a defender with near 400%.
Until I see a place on my character tab that tells me it's working and how high I will remain unconvinced. There is simply no way to prove otherwise.

[Spoprockel]

-120%

Wait, what?

[QNecron]

I'm still not convinced incite has any effect whatsoever. 10% or 1000%
I've continuously stolen agro on a rogue with -120% and too often lost it on a defender with near 400%.
Until I see a place on my character tab that tells me it's working and how high I will remain unconvinced. There is simply no way to prove otherwise.

Agreed. Even with Subtle Backstabbing (30%) + Treason (80%) I've seen rangers/rogues still pull agro away from my supposed 200% threat generation stalwart.

[MaximusParthas]

Wait, what?

80 treason, + epic ring of venom + 20 subtle backstab

[Izwor91]

Maybe they use (improved) deception and deception mess up with agro.

[jortann]

I am suspect as well. If you play an arcane you can pound a boss with damage non DOT spells and not steal aggro, but drop one DOT on him, just one, not evened stacked, and he will bee-line for you.

something is not right.

[bbqzor]

Incite and threat reduction work fine, and different amounts stack.

Remember, having 200% threat on a defender who only does 100 dps, means he only does 200 threat. That is easy to pass on a 500 dps rogue, even with 50% threat reduction. The percentages alone don't guarantee anything, it still depends on the to-hit and damage values of the people involved. I have seen many, many "tanks" with a ton of ac and threat gear, who miss frequently and do such poor damage, they can't hold agro over a wet noodle.

As for EFang specifically, I haven't tested it extensively, but at least the top value is working as I am getting some increase with mine. As far as I know, all 3 values should be working, but I can't say I specifically vetted that item. The mechanic as a whole though is definitely fine, my main tank (without EFang) has 10, 15, and 30 threat increases and they all work together perfectly.

[Maelphistez]

Just for clarity here... the Treason enhancement found on the weapon Treason from the Reaver's Fate as well as on the Turbulent Epee and the Tinkers goggles reduces threat by 20%, not 80%. Admittedly the Devs chose an odd way to state it, but the text of the enhancement reads: "This item reduces the threat generated by melee damage TO 80% of normal" rather than "This item reduces the threat generated by melee damage BY 80% of normal."

[QNecron]

The mechanic as a whole though is definitely fine...

As I've walked up and swung a few times with a +3 Holy Cold Iron Sickle and stole agro from our Kensai tank dealing over 100 damage each swing. I would definitely say it's not working "fine" lol, and no I hadn't done any offensive spells prior to this. Pretty sure he should maintain threat when hes dealing 100+ dps and I swing a few times and deal ~20 damage each hit (when I do land one).


Also to note taunting/intimidating is a derp mechanic in DDO. Many times I've intimidated something/watch something be intimidated only to have to attack someone else who isn't even targeted/dealing damage to said baddie.

[MaximusParthas]

Incite and threat reduction work fine, and different amounts stack.

Remember, having 200% threat on a defender who only does 100 dps, means he only does 200 threat. That is easy to pass on a 500 dps rogue, even with 50% threat reduction. The percentages alone don't guarantee anything, it still depends on the to-hit and damage values of the people involved. I have seen many, many "tanks" with a ton of ac and threat gear, who miss frequently and do such poor damage, they can't hold agro over a wet noodle.


this is all based on the assumption that said tank dps sux. or said rogue uses no agro management. that is not always the case and it wasn't my problem on either class.
in those cases there is more going on to disprove incite works than the alternative.
I reiterate. based on my experiences I'm not convinced it plays any role at all.


As for EFang specifically, I haven't tested it extensively, but at least the top value is working as I am getting some increase with mine. As far as I know, all 3 values should be working, but I can't say I specifically vetted that item. The mechanic as a whole though is definitely fine, my main tank (without EFang) has 10, 15, and 30 threat increases and they all work together perfectly.
How do you know they work? is this because ddo says so or is there some litmus test I'm not aware of?

[Fomori]

80 treason, + epic ring of venom + 20 subtle backstab

First off, Treason is only a 20% reduction... the effect reads "This item reduces the threat generated by melee damage to 80% of normal"

Secondly the effects are MULTIPLICATIVE not ADDITIVE.

Since a 20% reduction is the same as 80% of normal threat I'll calculate 3 20% reductions this way. (.8 * .8 * .8) = .512 or 51.2% threat.

With incite 30% you are doing 130% threat. Thus if someone is still doing (1.30 / .512) or 2.54 times your damage output your threat increase is meaningless.

[derping]

many rogues can sometimes steal agro if they successfully bluff the said monster, i've had that happen in eDeeps at the final demon

As for the eFang bonus, i'm going to assume they stack, hopefully a dev may confirm this

[bbqzor]

How do you know they work? is this because ddo says so or is there some litmus test I'm not aware of?

Yes, group with people with known dps/agro values and check. One common example is a cleric/fvs using Harm. It does a static amount of damage every cast. Then just swing until you peel agro, and add up the damage in your log. When you have incite, itll flip earlier.

Theres 101 things that could result in agro issues, from deception to tank stats to the rogue in general .. the list is long. But incite is working properly, and EFang is at least applying some bonus. I have seen no reason to believe it is not applying them all, but you are free to test it if you wish. It wont take long, just grab a friend with harm or touch of death or anything with a set value, and a calculator, and let us know.

[wax_on_wax_off]

The way I understand aggro reduction to work is that there are a set of additive and a few multiplicative values.

Treason, Tinkers Goggles etc grant "treason": set your threat to 80% of normal.

Many items and an enhancement grant threat reduction (-10 to -30%).

The way I understand threat on my rogue to work with subtle backstabbing I, assassin set and tinkers goggles is (100-10-20)*.8=56%.

Even with 56% hate generation I've pulled aggro off off tank builds when there wasn't a dedicated tank in an epic or similar quest.

[svinja]

many rogues can sometimes steal agro if they successfully bluff the said monster, i've had that happen in eDeeps at the final demon

As for the eFang bonus, i'm going to assume they stack, hopefully a dev may confirm this

Yeah the demon is really weird when it comes to aggro. I have stolen aggro on my paladin after divine righteousness ran out from a guy who stole it from me earlier when divine righteousness was up and I was intimidating him... Seen a wizard pull aggro off a monk when the wizard only had a single ice storm up on the demon. Seen an intimidate icon on the demon's head without anyone using intimidate... Seen him behave very strangely when rogues are hitting him. Yet at other times, everything goes fine and he never switches aggro. The demon is weird. :D You never see any of these weird aggro switches happen on Horoth, for example, who seems to be a boss with the most basic aggro mechanics (attack the guy with the most threat, period).

[Ryiah]

How do you know they work?

I've seen them work during boss sessions in Tower of Despair on my Monk. During one battle against Horoth I tried it both with and without incite gear. With it on I managed to pull Horoth off the tank and hold it. Removed the tank pulled it back and kept it.

[garlor]

80 treason, + epic ring of venom + 20 subtle backstab

oh good lord, here again people unable to read

http://ddowiki.com/page/Treason_%28weapon%29

treason is a 20%, because it reduces your hate TO a 80%, not IN a 80%

also people is not taking into account how things stack on ddo, from a dev interview on ddowiki

From DDOcast Ask the Devs 9 [1];
Jerry: “Rogues get their subtle backstabbing enhancement, where level one gives you 10% hate reduction, level two is 20% and level three is 30% hate reduction. Treason, the named short sword form the Stormreaver has an ability which is 20% hate reduction. My question is a two-parter: 1. Does Treason stack with subtle backstabbing, so if I have two levels of subtle backstabbing and wielding Treason will I have a 40% hate reduction?”
MadFloyd: Actually it does stack but you have something like a 36% hate reduction, so you would have 20% for the subtle backstabbing and you’d get 20% for treason, but they’re not purely additive so basically it’s sort of like 80% times 80% so you sort of get like 64% as a result.
Jerry: Oh ok, so it would essentially stack on top of that other 20%
MadFloyd: that’s correct.
Jerry: Question 2 here: Does the treason effect affect weapons in your offhand – so wielding treason in my main hand and welding a +2 dagger in my offhand would my offhand gain the benefit of the treason’s 20% hate reduction?
MadFloyd: Yes, it would because basically what that does is reduce threat generated by any melee damage, and that would include whatever your offhand is doing as well.