drow artificer

[evilgijoe]

I will admit it seems that i am among the minority,but i feel drow make decent artificers. This is based on no access to 32 point builds of course. having starting dex,int and cha at 10 is quite nice.the drawback of the low con is a problem if you dont bump it up(i usually go with 14). I've heard alot of drow are squishy comments,and yet im usually not the squishiest in the party. 111 hp at level 6. drow get a bonus to int-primary arti casting stat, dex for the repeater goodness and no penalty to umd with 10 starting cha. So,why all the drow hate people?


flaming to commence in three...two...one..

[HatsuharuZ]

I'm not sure myself, but it could be because drow get less build points than other races.

It could also be that some new players, upon getting access to drow via renown, decide to roll a drow toon because they think that drow are uber, although they really aren't.

And then there are people who hate drow and anything relating to a certain famous dual-wielding drow ranger character from the FR setting.

There is also the fact that drow racial enhancements are a bit meh, unless you have a reason to increase your saves vs. enchantments, dexterity, or you really like shurikens, rapiers and shortswords.

They aren't the *best* race, but they do have their uses.

[nayozz]

i made a test human character for fun... and if you have low money they sux...

at level 1 i had no money for the heal spell
while if you go warforge you got a cheap self repair heal...

drow may be good stat wise... but you have to have money for potions or heal scrolls :P
no idea how it becomes with the feat "half mechanical" and self repair...

but at least level 1-9 warforge is better...
if you cant afford an invulnerability robe + shipbuff... otherwise all the same :D

[evilgijoe]

the construct essence feat is nice for lower levels, but its something i usually feat swap out when i can umd cure moderate wands.and if you use the cure light infusion you usually get more healing than from drinking the potion i have found.

[Thanquil]

I will admit it seems that i am among the minority,but i feel drow make decent artificers. This is based on no access to 32 point builds of course. having starting dex,int and cha at 10 is quite nice.the drawback of the low con is a problem if you dont bump it up(i usually go with 14). I've heard alot of drow are squishy comments,and yet im usually not the squishiest in the party. 111 hp at level 6. drow get a bonus to int-primary arti casting stat, dex for the repeater goodness and no penalty to umd with 10 starting cha. So,why all the drow hate people?


flaming to commence in three...two...one..

Like everything else drow aren't horrible its the people who play them that gives them the bad rep. I ran into a drow sorc level 20 with 125hp also it seems common to see drow sorcs under 300hp at level 20. the common thiong I hear is I 1shot everything before they do any damage to me.

I accept these players because they claim to be uber only to find that they die 30+ times in quest due to lack of deathblock item heavy fort and a decent amount of hp.

on the positive side I have seen drow sorcs with 300+ hp heavy fort death block and they still can 1 shot most things I've even seen drow sorcs crowd control in Epics.

So what i am getting at is Drow do not suck its the player that makes or breaks the race.

[wax_on_wax_off]

If you take 14 con on a drow artificer there you lose their stat advantage, if you don't then it's much harder to not be squishy (but not impossible).

With 14 con and 19 intelligence you only have 5 build points left which isn't enough to bump dex to 17. Only alternative is to start with 9 strength, 17 dex, 12 con and 19 intelligence (17 dex to qualify for IPS). With a +3 dex tome or a legendary build you can start 20 int which is the only way to realise an intelligence advantage over a 32 point human or half-elf.

Overall human, half-elf or warforged are better choices in my experience for their other qualities (versatility: damage, self repairing without a feat, rogue dilettante). Drow might have a slight edge as a challenge build due to how useful spell resistance is in most of the challenges (more likely they're still behind but just not quite as much).

With 28 build points a human can have 8 strength, 16 dex, 13 con, 17 int which ends up -2 intelligence behind drow (but up to +2 constitution). This is considerable so drow is certainly a viable choice for a 28 point artificer but ultimately I'd probably advise against building a 28 point artificer (and if you can afford to buy or have unlocked artificer then you should be able to afford/have unlocked 32 point builds as well).

[evilgijoe]

myself and a rl friend both have artificers bought but no 32 point build.i bought it because i ran with some and it looked fun,my friend ran with my arti and loved it also. But the point of the original post was not that drow make the best,only that they can be just as adequate at arti as any other class. i will admit i never considered 1/2 elf with rouge dilly though.

[Jaid314]

drow artificers will, in general, have higher all-around stats than any other artificer of equivalent value (that is, 28-point drow will have better, not worse, stats as compared to most 32-point build other artificers, and yes that does include warforged; note that drow don't have to invest all the way into int, and only need 18 to match WF and 19 to match human/helf).

this is because other races tend to pay more for dex, and more for int, than a drow (and these stats tend to go up higher than con).

for example, for 18 int (10 points), 17 dex (8 points), a drow is left with 10 points to spend elsewhere (for example, to get 14 con). to get that much, a WF would spend 16 points on int, 13 points on dex, and have only 3 points to spend on con... giving them 13 con. 1 less than a drow. also 4 points lower in charisma.

to compare vs human, a drow would need 19 int (13 points), 17 dex (8 points), and have only 7 points to spend in con (enough for 12 con with 1 left over, probably in strength for carrying stuff). a human would need 18 int (16 points), 17 dex (13 points), and have only 3 points to spend on con... giving them 11 con, 1 point less than a drow. without the benefit of an extra point of strength (and yes, that *is* useful) and 2 charisma that drow has.

the same applies for a half-elf.

other races don't shine because of 32 point builds vs 28 point, at least not when it comes to artificer. this is one of only a few situations where drow is actually going to have better attributes than a similar build of a different race.

as was pointed out, other races shine for other reasons; humans get versatility and adaptability enhancements, which are very nice (although drow do get dex enhancements, which makes it a bit of a wash imo; better to-hit is nice). half-elfs get that, plus dilettante. warforged get immunities, stacking fortification (and yes, that *is* useful due to the drawback of yugoloth int potions), and better self-healing.

but from the perspective of attributes, you probably want drow. this becomes even more true as you gain past lives; a drow artificer on a second life looks even better than a human/helf/toaster on a second life, stat-wise, and ditto for third life.

of course, there's the enhancement revamp which so far is looking like it will come in U15. that may change everything. or it may not. we don't really know yet.

[Memnir]

This is based on no access to 32 point builds of course.Drow make decent versions of a lot of things until one has 32 point builds. Drow are a waystation on the path to 32 pointers, and once you have 32 pointers other races leave Drow in the dust - imho.

[Jaid314]

Drow make decent versions of a lot of things until one has 32 point builds. Drow are a waystation on the path to 32 pointers, and once you have 32 pointers other races leave Drow in the dust - imho.

access to 32 point builds is not a strong argument for artificers to avoid drow. attribute-wise, a 28 point drow is, as i have shown above, *better* than a 32 point human, helf, or WF in terms of attributes.

the decision is whether the better stats are worth more than the additional stuff other races bring, not the attributes (mind you, artificer is one of a very very very few builds you can say that with, and it helps that artificer has well over 80 points of worthwhile enhancements to fill up, even if you don't have any good racial enhancements to spend AP on).

either the other stuff offered by non-drow races is worth more than a few stat points, or it isn't. if it is, it's probably worth more to you regardless of 28 point build or not. if it isn't, then drow remain superior for attributes.

[Memnir]

the decision is whether the better stats are worth more than the additional stuff other races bringThe 32 point build, plus the "additional stuff" is why other races are better then Drow in just about every case. Do Drow make perfectly fine Artificers - yep. If the only point of contention is stat-points. However, stat points are only the very beginning of a build...

Drow are fine as a stopgap till you have 32 point builds - or if one just has an affinity towards dark elves and want to roll them. But it's been a long, long time since I've build a class with a Drow... and I am pretty far from a min/max type.

[Jaid314]

The 32 point build, plus the "additional stuff" is why other races are better then Drow in just about every case. Do Drow make perfectly fine Artificers - yep. If the only point of contention is stat-points. However, stat points are only the very beginning of a build...

Drow are fine as a stopgap till you have 32 point builds - or if one just has an affinity towards dark elves and want to roll them. But it's been a long, long time since I've build a class with a Drow... and I am pretty far from a min/max type.

the 32 point build isn't making as much of a difference though. drow is still better statwise.

the added stuff also tends to be less valuable for an artificer ime. extra feat? meh. i have feats that i spend on stuff i kinda vaguely would like to have already. great self-healing and immunities? meh. i can get the immunities from gear, and all artificers have great self-healing, assuming you're not completely clueless. the human/helf power boost enhancement is nice, but only works on your crossbow damage, doesn't help your rune arm at all afaict... and isn't always on, either. half-elf dilettante can be sorta interesting, and i would say that half-elf certainly has the most temptation to me... but i'm not that excited about sneak attack damage on a build that i tend to use at much longer ranges given the choice, (and having run a repeater rogue before i've had some experience with the limitations of sneak attack anyways).

it's not nearly as big of a difference. the stuff that other races add, for me at least, tend not to be that interesting. they're ok. but i'm not gonna lose any sleep over not having them.

of course, it's worth mentioning... my drow artificer *is* on a second life, so it's 30 point vs 34 point, which muddies the waters a little further.

i do have to admit i'm a bit curious to see the new enhancements they're bringing out though. that could very heavily shift things away from drow if, for example, arcane archer changes to offer something to repeater builds, or if human/helf really do get their pick of prestige enhancements while drow is stuck with tempest (blech, still leaves a foul taste in my mouth that they've proposed to stick drow with tempest, when there are so many prestige enhancements out there which could be useful for a wide variety of builds instead of a narrow selection).

[Memnir]

If you like the Drow build - awesome. :) I'm not trying to talk you into anything, just saying my point of view. One of the things that makes this game great is it's freedom of building what you want in the manner in which you enjoy.

[FranOhmsford]

Drow have +2 Dex, Int and Cha - All main stats for an Arti.

They get Dex enhancements - They should get the choice between the 3 main stats to be honest.

This makes them a good choice for Arti.

Unfortunately Warforged, Humans and H-Elves are all better choices.

I like my Halfling Arti.

I'm sure Dwarf, Elf and even H-Orc Artis are more than playable if made right but in any list of race choices - Human, H-Elf and Warforged will be the top 3 {order subjective of course}.

[Plaidpooka]

I will admit it seems that i am among the minority,but i feel drow make decent artificers. This is based on no access to 32 point builds of course. having starting dex,int and cha at 10 is quite nice.the drawback of the low con is a problem if you dont bump it up(i usually go with 14). I've heard alot of drow are squishy comments,and yet im usually not the squishiest in the party. 111 hp at level 6. drow get a bonus to int-primary arti casting stat, dex for the repeater goodness and no penalty to umd with 10 starting cha. So,why all the drow hate people?


flaming to commence in three...two...one..

I've got a Drow Arti that's level 18 now. Just solo'd Dreaming Dark with doggie and a pocket cleric. I'm not a min/maxer, and I didn't do a lot of build research, but the toon is very playable. The dex, int, and cha to start is very useful, and there are always ways to bring up the HP.
I also have a Drow Pally that's capped. Drow make good pallys, and she's also fun to play.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

It could also be that some new players, upon getting access to drow via renown, decide to roll a drow toon because they think that drow are uber, although they really aren't.

I partially did so : as soon as I had the appropriate favour points, my first thought was : "Make a Drow character !" - And I did so - a (urrently) level 7 wizard.

A few weeks ago I found out that there was a kind of special ... time ? going on where/when one could do an artificer for free - but in order to be able to play it, it still must be bought - so I dabbled a bit in that and indeed created a Drow artificer.

I haven't bought it yet, though. My primary interest right now is growing up my two primary characters.

[Chauncey1]

Drow would make a decent arti. Decent, but not optimal.
I rolled a Drow rogue when I first got the favor.
Never again.
The only Drow toon I'll ever roll will be a caster.

[Hambo]

the construct essence feat is nice for lower levels, but its something i usually feat swap out when i can umd cure moderate wands.and if you use the cure light infusion you usually get more healing than from drinking the potion i have found.

...not to mention the infusions are a "group" effect. I often use them to to off both myself and the Iron mutt.

[Edit] Just saw the above and nearly peed myself laughing so hard at the typo! :D:D:D

I meant to type "...to top off..."

Although a bug in the combat logg says that "You cure your pet with X points of Damage Construct" for some reason. :eek: :D

[Hambo]

The 32 point build, plus the "additional stuff" is why other races are better then Drow in just about every case. Do Drow make perfectly fine Artificers - yep. If the only point of contention is stat-points. However, stat points are only the very beginning of a build...

Drow are fine as a stopgap till you have 32 point builds - or if one just has an affinity towards dark elves and want to roll them. But it's been a long, long time since I've build a class with a Drow... and I am pretty far from a min/max type.

I've had good results with H-Elf Artis.. A large selection of various Stat enhancements... their human half can get two bumps of any stat while their Elf half get INT and WIS, iirc. I then go with an appropriate Helf Dilletaunt.

Since the PrE only has one level, selectable at L6, there's plenty of AP to spread around.

My latest build is a 2 Rog/X Arti. An Arti with evasion is a lovely thing. I got tired of dying in traps, either by having to run through the trap to get to the box or those times when I'm not quite ready to solo the quest on elite. Evasion helps! I also get hit less by mobs.

I also use the Iron Mutt as an agro-magnet... He gets the mobs' attention them I *plink* and *spew* the mobs with Flame Turret, Xbow and Runearm. Good Times! :D

[goodspeed]

Any time I see a drow I figure on 2 things. Either it's a flavor build or they didn't have the coin to buy the helf or wf.

Now depending on what they do to tempest that might change. But unless it's an epic change I think the conclusion will stay the same in the end. It's not the -2 con it's the mandated investment in other stats. One of which will be useless to that class except in the rare occasion where they need them all. And the only class that comes to mind is a 2 weapon pld.

Right now I think the best races for a ranged arti would be human or helf. For a melee arti a dwarf or a WF. Problem with wf is while you will be able to self heal while matched with the boss, their ap's are so tight not even the jaws of death could open a gap. So heal amp might come at an expense.

A dwarf could use an axe free and of course have an easier time of burst heals. But your also relying solely on the healer. Ya that ain't none to fun either. Ive seen some pretty sad healers in something as simple as the shroud. But both will get the steward so lots of hp to.

Your call. In this case a wf can be justified as like a pld you can heal yourself and don't require a mage with reconstruct suckn up spots in place of a quicker kill or more stability.

[Memnir]

I've had good results with H-Elf Artis.My Arti is a Helf as well. :)
This is also how I've come to be hooked on Call Lightning Storm.

[Jaid314]

Now depending on what they do to tempest that might change. But unless it's an epic change I think the conclusion will stay the same in the end. It's not the -2 con it's the mandated investment in other stats. One of which will be useless to that class except in the rare occasion where they need them all. And the only class that comes to mind is a 2 weapon pld.

kindly explain to me which of the following is not beneficial to an artificer:

dex
int
cha

because i am really not seeing it.

also feel free to justify how you can argue that it's only worthwhile if you need all 3 stats, and yet i have already demonstrated, multiple times, that a drow build will consistently have the equivalent of *more* build points than a similar build in WF, human, or half-elf.

[FranOhmsford]

Any time I see a drow I figure on 2 things. Either it's a flavor build or they didn't have the coin to buy the helf or wf.

Now depending on what they do to tempest that might change. But unless it's an epic change I think the conclusion will stay the same in the end. It's not the -2 con it's the mandated investment in other stats. One of which will be useless to that class except in the rare occasion where they need them all. And the only class that comes to mind is a 2 weapon pld.

Right now I think the best races for a ranged arti would be human or helf. For a melee arti a dwarf or a WF. Problem with wf is while you will be able to self heal while matched with the boss, their ap's are so tight not even the jaws of death could open a gap. So heal amp might come at an expense.

A dwarf could use an axe free and of course have an easier time of burst heals. But your also relying solely on the healer. Ya that ain't none to fun either. Ive seen some pretty sad healers in something as simple as the shroud. But both will get the steward so lots of hp to.

Your call. In this case a wf can be justified as like a pld you can heal yourself and don't require a mage with reconstruct suckn up spots in place of a quicker kill or more stability.

First things first This:

kindly explain to me which of the following is not beneficial to an artificer:

dex
int
cha

Secondly Rogue Mech {apart from synergy with Artificer for multiclassing} also makes great use out of Drow base stats.

Then we have Finesse Assassins, Sorcerors, Wizards, Stalwart even {13 int for CE with ease, Nice dex, Cha for Intim and no penalty to Str}.

None of these would be the uber builds of course {except possibly Rogue Mech as Warforged are actually weak as rogues - Thank goodness, H-Elf dilly doesn't give the huge benefit of sneak attack to a rogue and Human even with the extra feat doesn't equal drow for this one build} BUT they'd all be more than playable.

[hecate355]

the 32 point build isn't making as much of a difference though. drow is still better statwise.

the added stuff also tends to be less valuable for an artificer ime. extra feat? meh. i have feats that i spend on stuff i kinda vaguely would like to have already. great self-healing and immunities? meh. i can get the immunities from gear, and all artificers have great self-healing, assuming you're not completely clueless. the human/helf power boost enhancement is nice, but only works on your crossbow damage, doesn't help your rune arm at all afaict... and isn't always on, either. half-elf dilettante can be sorta interesting, and i would say that half-elf certainly has the most temptation to me... but i'm not that excited about sneak attack damage on a build that i tend to use at much longer ranges given the choice, (and having run a repeater rogue before i've had some experience with the limitations of sneak attack anyways).

it's not nearly as big of a difference. the stuff that other races add, for me at least, tend not to be that interesting. they're ok. but i'm not gonna lose any sleep over not having them.

of course, it's worth mentioning... my drow artificer *is* on a second life, so it's 30 point vs 34 point, which muddies the waters a little further.

i do have to admit i'm a bit curious to see the new enhancements they're bringing out though. that could very heavily shift things away from drow if, for example, arcane archer changes to offer something to repeater builds, or if human/helf really do get their pick of prestige enhancements while drow is stuck with tempest (blech, still leaves a foul taste in my mouth that they've proposed to stick drow with tempest, when there are so many prestige enhancements out there which could be useful for a wide variety of builds instead of a narrow selection).

Let me say my opinion about whats meh and what isnt.

Stats: 32p or 28p i dont find it critical for artificers, as long as you have stats 'good enough.' Nothing in game depends on artificer having highest possible dc. there simply arent enough spells that justify going full nerd on spell dc of arties.

Race specific bonuses: Which is why i find these way more important. Quickened reconstruct IS important and convenient(sure you are fine without, but still). So is extra feat for those who plan to fit crafting feats in their arties.

In other words i can roll up 28p non drow artificer and not need to go for any big compromises. It plays just the same PLUS racial bonuses of your choice. Not having dex bonus isnt going to be the issue, loosing 1-2 dc isnt char breaking either. So lets see what else drows have to offer...right spell resistance, but like you yourself said, such things can be replaced with equipment.
....

[Eleia]

Drow artys are great, but . . . they do take knowledge of the game. I just finished my second life as a drow arty. First life I started with 12 con, second a whopping 13 lol. It wasn't easy.

Unbuffed with only 1 toughness feat, I have 402 hitpoints, good spell resist (I still see my blue shield go up) and a nice reflex save.

My bbs do 1k crits of course, and my tactical det does upwards of 742 damage per hit.

Outside of playing with arcanes, I'm usually on the top of the kill count . . . not that it means much, but I have looked. /shrug.

This is the first character I've been able to solo epics so I'm happy.

I think drow as a whole get a bad rep. just due to the fact a lot of new players go to them and don't understand the need for con., false life, and fort. on any character. It's just more noticeable on drow/elves.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

I think drow as a whole get a bad rep. just due to the fact a lot of new players go to them and don't understand the need for con., false life, and fort. on any character. It's just more noticeable on drow/elves.

I instantly saw this as an possible issue and began increasing constitution.

[Jaid314]

i'm confused how anyone can think that DC is completely irrelevant on an artificer, or that 1-2 points are not valuable.

first off, that's about 50% of your boss DPS tied up in your DC. especially if you like to use a rune arm that allows a reflex save, since a few bosses have evasion.

secondly, that's your damage bonus.

thirdly, what the heck are you doing that makes tactical detonation and prismatic strike *not* effective CC? i mean, really... they are extremely strong. i am finding them to be quite effective on my artificer, and i've *still* got some gear farming left to go before i have everything i'd like. i would absolutely love to have more intelligence to boost their DCs even further so that i can continue to reliably CC as needed. furthermore, against evasion mobs, i absolutely think blade barrier benefits tremendously from an extra point of DC, as do various other spells while leveling up.

fourthly... it's not just a dex bonus. improved precise shot is *the* most important feat a repeater build can get (for bow use, it's probably a toss-up between that and manyshot, but since artificers can't use bows, and manyshot won't work with crossbows, it's all the way IPS). qualifying for this feat is a major pain for anyone who doesn't have a racial dex bonus.

you can argue all you want for the other races having things *other* than stats over a drow artificer, but when it comes to stats, it's drow all the way.

(also, drow artificer can get a quickened reconstruct if you really want. i haven't found it needed, and if the devs ever get around to fixing the bug where potion throwing isn't quickened i'll feel even less need for it, if that's possible, but it is available).

[hecate355]

i'm confused how anyone can think that DC is completely irrelevant on an artificer, or that 1-2 points are not valuable.

first off, that's about 50% of your boss DPS tied up in your DC. especially if you like to use a rune arm that allows a reflex save, since a few bosses have evasion.

secondly, that's your damage bonus.

thirdly, what the heck are you doing that makes tactical detonation and prismatic strike *not* effective CC? i mean, really... they are extremely strong. i am finding them to be quite effective on my artificer, and i've *still* got some gear farming left to go before i have everything i'd like. i would absolutely love to have more intelligence to boost their DCs even further so that i can continue to reliably CC as needed. furthermore, against evasion mobs, i absolutely think blade barrier benefits tremendously from an extra point of DC, as do various other spells while leveling up.

fourthly... it's not just a dex bonus. improved precise shot is *the* most important feat a repeater build can get (for bow use, it's probably a toss-up between that and manyshot, but since artificers can't use bows, and manyshot won't work with crossbows, it's all the way IPS). qualifying for this feat is a major pain for anyone who doesn't have a racial dex bonus.

you can argue all you want for the other races having things *other* than stats over a drow artificer, but when it comes to stats, it's drow all the way.

(also, drow artificer can get a quickened reconstruct if you really want. i haven't found it needed, and if the devs ever get around to fixing the bug where potion throwing isn't quickened i'll feel even less need for it, if that's possible, but it is available).

Wf starts with 18, drow 20 int, thats 1 dc. I never said dc is totally irrelevant, my arti is max int wf with spell focus feats. And it DOES have improved precise.

Detonation is nice spell indeed, but does not compete with mass hold. I have yet to see people looking for arti as cc. Prismatic strike isnt bad either...for a single target spell.

1 dc is not 50% of my damage output however tho.

EDIT: ok rolling 28p non drow arti was probably bit too far stretched, may indeed loose some effectiveness.

[goodspeed]

People still have 28 pt builds?

[QNecron]

I think drow as a whole get a bad rep. just due to the fact a lot of new players go to them and don't understand the need for con., false life, and fort. on any character. It's just more noticeable on drow/elves.


I get this a lot when people see my Drow Bardarian. I run with the highest FL I can get, 14 base CON, Heavy Fort, Minos, Toughness, and Toughness Enhancements and I still get this reaction from some players. Though I have found people making comments about my HP before looking at mine VS theirs... always funny when I have a good 30+ more HP than them.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

Drow make decent versions of a lot of things until one has 32 point builds. Drow are a waystation on the path to 32 pointers, and once you have 32 pointers other races leave Drow in the dust - imho.

Well put. Doesn't mean they're inherently flawed, just that there are better choices.

But hey, I made a horc sorc for laughs and he turned out to work just fine.

[Jaid314]

you'd be amazed how much of a difference a single point of DC can make.

and while 1 DC won't make you lose 50% of your DPS entirely, it will certainly have an impact on that 50% of your DPS.

+1 DC is a ridiculously good ability. those who have not had a chance to compare having that +1 vs not having the +1 will have a hard time appreciating it, but i assure you, it is huge.

(also, nobody looks for bards to CC apart from eVoN6. does that mean that bards *can't* CC, or simply that people don't look for them to CC? personally, i don't worry about whether people asked my artificer to CC things or not. if there's a caster i can render a non-threat for 10-15 seconds by casting a spell, i cast the spell and don't worry about whether or not somebody requested that i do so).

[hecate355]

you'd be amazed how much of a difference a single point of DC can make.

and while 1 DC won't make you lose 50% of your DPS entirely, it will certainly have an impact on that 50% of your DPS.

+1 DC is a ridiculously good ability. those who have not had a chance to compare having that +1 vs not having the +1 will have a hard time appreciating it, but i assure you, it is huge.

(also, nobody looks for bards to CC apart from eVoN6. does that mean that bards *can't* CC, or simply that people don't look for them to CC? personally, i don't worry about whether people asked my artificer to CC things or not. if there's a caster i can render a non-threat for 10-15 seconds by casting a spell, i cast the spell and don't worry about whether or not somebody requested that i do so).

Maybe one of these days i go and log my drow arti on secondary server, played both to gap, drow and wf. At least i dont remember any difference, other than scrolls vs reconstruct and ~340 hps vs ~450.

[Jaid314]

Maybe one of these days i go and log my drow arti on secondary server, played both to gap, drow and wf. At least i dont remember any difference, other than scrolls vs reconstruct and ~340 hps vs ~450.

if you've got 340 HP on one and 450 on the other, they are not comparable. that's a 110 point difference where there should probably only be a 40-60 HP difference (and quite likely even less - the second constitution point is *very* expensive to buy, though at least it's a better deal than the third and fourth toughness fenhancements).

presumably the difference is made up with gear... meaning your much better-equipped WF arti feels like it succeeds as much as your ungeared drow arti.

depending where you are on the saving throw die for a given monster, +1 DC can cause the monster to save half as often (save on a 19 = 10%, save on a 20 = 5%, and 5% is half as often as 10%). and yes, it really is a difference. it may sound weird that 1 or 2 points of DC can make a huge difference, but it really truly does.

[hecate355]

if you've got 340 HP on one and 450 on the other, they are not comparable. that's a 110 point difference where there should probably only be a 40-60 HP difference (and quite likely even less - the second constitution point is *very* expensive to buy, though at least it's a better deal than the third and fourth toughness fenhancements).

presumably the difference is made up with gear... meaning your much better-equipped WF arti feels like it succeeds as much as your ungeared drow arti.

depending where you are on the saving throw die for a given monster, +1 DC can cause the monster to save half as often (save on a 19 = 10%, save on a 20 = 5%, and 5% is half as often as 10%). and yes, it really is a difference. it may sound weird that 1 or 2 points of DC can make a huge difference, but it really truly does.

Ok i logged on drow, actual hp difference is 65 hps(totally equal conditions). Less if it would have been 14 con instead of 12. And i give up arguing over 1 dc, dont get me wrong, on my wizard i went after every single dc i can possibly get, currently on 46 sustainable(gear and yugo pots). On my arti i find it much less relevant, it DOES matter, but its not the clear succeed or fail case like it is with instakills.

[Jaid314]

funny, i find it's pretty clear whether i succeeded at knocking an enemy down, or stunned them for 15 seconds, or dealt full damage vs half damage...

[hecate355]

funny, i find it's pretty clear whether i succeeded at knocking an enemy down, or stunned them for 15 seconds, or dealt full damage vs half damage...

And you seem to assume it doesent happend on my wf arti, i dont know what else to read out of your post. There are places where 1 dc matters, and loads of those where it isnt that influential.

Its not that you as drow 90% time execute not saved spell/rune arm hit and i as wf 90% time produce successfully saved hit.

[Jaid314]

And you seem to assume it doesent happend on my wf arti, i dont know what else to read out of your post. There are places where 1 dc matters, and loads of those where it isnt that influential.

Its not that you as drow 90% time execute not saved spell/rune arm hit and i as wf 90% time produce successfully saved hit.

nope, but if 1 DC is worthwhile on a pale master because it makes your spells work substantially more often, the same can be true for an artificer.

i suppose it depends on whether or not you focus on casting a lot, but for me, on my artificer, i find that the 1 DC almost always matters. i seldom find myself in situations where it is not giving me a better success rate; it's much harder to get that super-high save DC on an artificer than it is on a pale master, and even with a super-high DC pale master there are some enemies where more DC would be helpful.