Assasin Rogues and PVP

[mdgiest2314]

Am i the only one who really enjoys playing a assasin build rogue and is absolutly livid that they are EXTREMELY screwed when it comes to any kind of pvp??? mainly being that the sneak skill which would be ridiculously fun in CTF or even DMN arena doesnt work at all??

[SableShadow]

I've yet to see a PvP implementation of stealth that didn't annoy people. It always seems to end up "too good" or "utter garbage".

my 2cp.

[Quarterling]

I've yet to see a PvP implementation of stealth that didn't annoy people. It always seems to end up "too good" or "utter garbage".

my 2cp.

Wait, do you mean that stealth/sneaking actually worked in PvP in DDO way back when DDO was new, except that it was over-powered?

[SableShadow]

Wait, do you mean that stealth/sneaking actually worked in PvP in DDO way back when DDO was new, except that it was over-powered?

Referring to other games.

It's either utter garbage (e.g. Assassins at AoC launch) or OP (e.g. early Stalkers in CoV).

Pretty much nobody likes being jumped from stealth, unless it's a "fair fight" even when the jumped player is caught with his pants around his ankles and needs a minute to wipe his cheetos stained fingers.

[mdgiest2314]

I've yet to see a PvP implementation of stealth that didn't annoy people. It always seems to end up "too good" or "utter garbage".

my 2cp.

i do agree with that i remember when WoW first came out rogues were beasts in 1v1 pvp but in arenas it was equaled out in the long run i just see it as a build required skill that wouldnt be to hard to get up and going i mean look at the ioun stone for spell absorbtion vs casters in pvp renders them pretty much useless but its still there i just want it to "work" in some way even if i gotta take skill point penaltys or scaling to make it semi fair to toons with no spot "basically everyone but trappers :P" or no see invisible

[SableShadow]

i do agree with that i remember when WoW first came out rogues were beasts in 1v1 pvp but in arenas it was equaled out in the long run i just see it as a build required skill that wouldnt be to hard to get up and going i mean look at the ioun stone for spell absorbtion vs casters in pvp renders them pretty much useless but its still there i just want it to "work" in some way even if i gotta take skill point penaltys or scaling to make it semi fair to toons with no spot "basically everyone but trappers :P" or no see invisible

It would need to be some kind of temporary buff that had no other restrictions on it other than a short timer, a reasonable cool down, and a break-on-attack functionality ... think the Mabar cloak invisibility except it breaks when you attack. Something like that. And please, please don't put it in PvE, unless it's separate from regular stealth. :)

[Kawai]

So lets say they heed the demand.
Im for it. Lets say they fix the Rogues sneak in pvp...
You enter the arena...
A Ranger with High Spot riddles you to shredz from across the room.
Then, we're right back here reading more pvp complaints about nerfing Rangers...
...and so it will go on and on and on and on.
Bottomline: PVP is a niche thing that is nice to have, Its good to get a feel of how well your toon can do against others, but in the end, someone will ALWAYS have your flavor of Kryptonite in thier pocket.
With sneak and even Inviz being damaged as they are, they can only give us so much.

-Tarelyn -Achillesia, Thelanis

[mdgiest2314]

It would need to be some kind of temporary buff that had no other restrictions on it other than a short timer, a reasonable cool down, and a break-on-attack functionality ... think the Mabar cloak invisibility except it breaks when you attack. Something like that. And please, please don't put it in PvE, unless it's separate from regular stealth. :)

well the sneak is already break on attack but the timer idk about because that is much needed to be able to "sneak up" on some one for the assassinate or sneak way to the flag then of course be unable to use till flag was dropped or returned.....i think a good way to "nerf" this ability would be just to add a reasonable cool down timer (for pvp only) and increase the sneaking toons chance to be seen more within the oppenates front facing line of sight and make the lighting in the map increase the visabity way more than it is in normal dungeons making you have to stick more to the shadowie areas of the map any more major changes or nerfing would deaden the skill to much to make it effective for a assassin and the assassinate abilty

[mdgiest2314]

So lets say they heed the demand.
Im for it. Lets say they fix the Rogues sneak in pvp...
You enter the arena...
A Ranger with High Spot riddles you to shredz from across the room.
Then, we're right back here reading more pvp complaints about nerfing Rangers...
...and so it will go on and on and on and on.
Bottomline: PVP is a niche thing that is nice to have, Its good to get a feel of how well your toon can do against others, but in the end, someone will ALWAYS have your flavor of Kryptonite in thier pocket.
With sneak and even Inviz being damaged as they are, they can only give us so much.

-Tarelyn -Achillesia, Thelanis

id rather be destroyed by someone who had the spot that go into pvp and have a tank with 2 spot see me and destroy me or any toon with 2 spot i kno there will be the weakness there but id rather have a ability with a few weaknesses than no ability at all

[madmaxhunter]

Why is this even a topic? Any player worth his salt would have a heavy fortification item, negating sneak attack damage.

[mdgiest2314]

Why is this even a topic? Any player worth his salt would have a heavy fortification item, negating sneak attack damage.

because if all you have is 100% fort when your going up against a assassin build that turns in to a min of 75% because of the assassins -25% fort to "oppenate" skill not to mention any other fort reducing items the rogues oppenate could be using....any player worth his salt would know bout the rogues -25% to fort.....

[Dandonk]

because if all you have is 100% fort when your going up against a assassin build that turns in to a min of 75% because of the assassins -25% fort to "oppenate" skill not to mention any other fort reducing items the rogues oppenate could be using....any player worth his salt would know bout the rogues -25% to fort.....

You mean the 10% from Opportunist feat?

[Lonnbeimnech]

Even if they did 'fix' this, deathblock and heavy fort would still make sneak attack and assassinate useless, most of the time.

[count_spicoli]

Not to mention assissinate is fortitude save nothing to do with fort. Although not sure.if deathblock or death ward negates. But I agree rogues should get full use of their abilities. If someone has high spot and listen than ok they deserve to syop sneak.

[mdgiest2314]

You mean the 10% from Opportunist feat?

i had forgotten about opportunist i was refering to the use of the precision feat that some "PURE assassins" will take for use with rogues built in vorpals so the precision and opportunist would be 35% if they stack not sure on that...

[mdgiest2314]

and at the same time sure it would be able to block but what else does a assassin build have he does 3 things sneak and assassinate disarm traps and dps BUT ONLY IF SNEAK ATTACKING IT IS EFFECTIVE and you cant diplo a player and if your going toe toe sneak attacks are pretty much out so with current pvp workings assassin build rogues HAVE NOTHING but meehh dps if they get luck im just saying gotta give us something

[Qezuzu]

Assassinate is negated by deathblock/ward, and rogues can usually only negate 20% fort with opportunist and armor piercing weapons (e.g. Evenomed Blade). You could also include Destruction weapons.

But sneaking in brawl would give me a whole new way to mess with people. I would support that. Note that getting +70 sneak skill isn't very hard.

[Ungood]

It's very easy to get to 125% fort, and most melee have it already, while most Wizards are around 200% fort and Divines use Death Block.

But as it has already been said, Sneaking in every PvP game I have played is either OPed or Junk. In DDO, it's Junk. Life goes on.

[Dandonk]

i had forgotten about opportunist i was refering to the use of the precision feat that some "PURE assassins" will take for use with rogues built in vorpals so the precision and opportunist would be 35% if they stack not sure on that...

Who on Earth would take Precision?? I mean, it'll literally cut your DPS in half...

[Mastikator]

But sneaking in brawl would give me a whole new way to mess with people. I would support that. Note that getting +70 sneak skill isn't very hard.

The fun part is that even with this Rogues would still be one of the weakest class in PVP.
High str melees can still trip + kill quickly, rangers can still many-shot/imbue death, monks get either kukan-do/tomb of jade or touch of death. Don't even get me started on the blue bars.

[RedHost]

Who on Earth would take Precision?? I mean, it'll literally cut your DPS in half...

No, it cuts your base damage in half. With +25% fortification reduction that means that anyone who's bonus from criticals and sneak attack damage is more than 4x the base damage of their attacks, which is going to be true even for STR based rogues, Precision is a pretty large DPS increase.

But that said.... we are still talking about Sneak in PvP. I mean, even if stealth was functional it still wouldn't give you any sneak attack damage or anything like that except on your first swing. In order for that to work they have to not be targeting you. Seems like a lot of to-do about nothing.

[Dandonk]

No, it cuts your base damage in half. With +25% fortification reduction that means that anyone who's bonus from criticals and sneak attack damage is more than 4x the base damage of their attacks, which is going to be true even for STR based rogues, Precision is a pretty large DPS increase.

But that said.... we are still talking about Sneak in PvP. I mean, even if stealth was functional it still wouldn't give you any sneak attack damage or anything like that except on your first swing. In order for that to work they have to not be targeting you. Seems like a lot of to-do about nothing.

No, it cuts sneak attack in half, too. So it's a useless feat.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I would probably actually enjoy PvP if stealth (and other tricks) worked.

I get no enjoyment from trying to prove how much better my DPS gear is than someone else's; but I would really enjoy outsmarting someone else.

[Qezuzu]

The fun part is that even with this Rogues would still be one of the weakest class in PVP.
High str melees can still trip + kill quickly, rangers can still many-shot/imbue death, monks get either kukan-do/tomb of jade or touch of death. Don't even get me started on the blue bars.

I wouldn't care about WINNING, just goofing around with super stealth.

[Forzah]

Ambush, backstab, backstab, dead! Oh, that was another game :D

[Stormvent]

Assassinate is negated by deathblock/ward,


I don't normally post but this is so wrong I just had too.

[MalarKan]

and at the same time sure it would be able to block but what else does a assassin build have he does 3 things sneak and assassinate disarm traps and dps BUT ONLY IF SNEAK ATTACKING IT IS EFFECTIVE and you cant diplo a player and if your going toe toe sneak attacks are pretty much out so with current pvp workings assassin build rogues HAVE NOTHING but meehh dps if they get luck im just saying gotta give us something


hehe... "meh dps"? My human rogue is very respected in pvp, and sometimes respect in a brawling area is earned by deliberate use of brute force :P And for well geared rogues, fortification is not a big issue.. been able to dispatch players in a few seconds thanks to bluff or improved deception items, fortification reduce items (like a blasting chime + wrack cosntruct + destruct on a warforged enemy)... And now that it is a lvl 25 rogue dreadnought been able to defeat players in a couple strikes.

Just saying that fortification is no longer an issue post u14... but yeah, in pvp is where an Acrobat can defeat an assasin easily

[Uska]

Wait, do you mean that stealth/sneaking actually worked in PvP in DDO way back when DDO was new, except that it was over-powered?

Stealth never worked in pvp in ddo and when ddo was new there was no pvp

[Uska]

It's very easy to get to 125% fort, and most melee have it already, while most Wizards are around 200% fort and Divines use Death Block.

But as it has already been said, Sneaking in every PvP game I have played is either OPed or Junk. In DDO, it's Junk. Life goes on.

Heck its easy now for a wf to get 135% or more

[Aashrym]

I would probably actually enjoy PvP if stealth (and other tricks) worked.

I get no enjoyment from trying to prove how much better my DPS gear is than someone else's; but I would really enjoy outsmarting someone else.

I doubt I would enjoy it more but if there was something in PvP worth fixing stealth would be on the list. I'd like to see more uses for stealth in PvE too. It seems rather underused overall.

[riskyraines]

My rogue (risk raines) had 550 hps and 60 ac and slapped a fighter (hapsai) 100 ac and 1000 hps, right in his mouth last night in PVP no sneaking needed. Rogues definitely arent weak in pvp. I didnt instakill either. I used good tactics and my terrain to win. Also the cockiness of my foe was his downfall :)

[Turbeleg]

Referring to other games.

It's either utter garbage (e.g. Assassins at AoC launch) or OP (e.g. early Stalkers in CoV).

Pretty much nobody likes being jumped from stealth, unless it's a "fair fight" even when the jumped player is caught with his pants around his ankles and needs a minute to wipe his cheetos stained fingers.

Hence they would have to develop a spot skill, as, in my view, it would work just as if the hostile PC was a 'monster".

[Turbeleg]

So lets say they heed the demand.
Im for it. Lets say they fix the Rogues sneak in pvp...
You enter the arena...
A Ranger with High Spot riddles you to shredz from across the room.
Then, we're right back here reading more pvp complaints about nerfing Rangers...
...and so it will go on and on and on and on.
Bottomline: PVP is a niche thing that is nice to have, Its good to get a feel of how well your toon can do against others, but in the end, someone will ALWAYS have your flavor of Kryptonite in thier pocket.
With sneak and even Inviz being damaged as they are, they can only give us so much.

-Tarelyn -Achillesia, Thelanis

If they ranger has such a high spot that he sees me, then I need to develop a higher hide/move silently skill.

[Turbeleg]

Why is this even a topic? Any player worth his salt would have a heavy fortification item, negating sneak attack damage.
As there is now the ability/gear to reduce the percentage of fort that your target has, it is a viable thought.

[Qezuzu]

Stealth would be fun as balls in PvP. I'm in the brawl pit like .001% of my play time but I'd go a lot more often if I could troll with stealth. Because of Tavern regen I could keep Sneak of Shadows up indefinitely, so +100 stealth the entire time is pretty easy.

Just swing at people every so often then go back in stealth :)