Artificer build vers2 - Advice please

[the.magister]

Hello,

So, I am at 20 now and planning on TR'ing. My first life was a drow arty, and I am planning on switching to a warforged now that I have enough points to make it worthwhile.

I am also considering not going pure arty this time (20arty), but instead splashing 2 of monk for evasion. Here is a quick view of what I was thinking:

Level 1 (Artificer)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Artificer (free)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot (must have)

Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness (free bonus class feat with monk, instead of having to pay with full feat slot on arty)

Level 3 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Rapid Shot (must have)

Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Lightning Reflexes (or another toughness)

Level 6 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Precise Shot (must have)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Evocation (+runearm / bb dmg)

Level 9 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes (needed for evasion to be worthwhile)

Level 10 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Maximize Spell (dmg / healing bump)

Level 12 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons (must have)

Level 14 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Quicken Spell (instant heals / bb / turrets)

Level 15 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Evocation (further bb / runearm dmg bonus)

Level 18 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell (unsure! This or the Spell Penetration feat I was thinking maybe)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Improved Precise Shot (must have)

**feat concern - a couple of you below have suggested quick draw, does this have a hidden bonus that I am not seeing that increases my dps? or does it simply speed up the rate at which I swap wands / scrolls / bows around? As I WF I won't be swapping that much (emergency heal with recon, remove curse with clicky, or make myself immune to curse with reign of madness item + triple negative GS item = don't have to worry about too much really). I didn't take it on my first life - and honestly I didn't have any issues swapping without it, but I would be willing to listen on WHY & HOW you feel it should be taken and what the benefits are for taking it, and if I were to take it, what would I drop in order to take it - keeping in mind I like to be trap monkey.


----------------------------

I had other things on my first life, such as augment summoning - which overall I found very lackluster in the grand scheme of things.

I am looking to squeeze as much dmg as possible out of this class, as well as being a trap monkey. My first life had zero issues making any roll on any trap / chest / etc in the game - however there are so many traps that I had to run through to disarm the boxes that I really felt evasion was worth taking, not to mention the other bonuses.

So what I am still debating and hence the reason for this post, is if I should splash or not. I was originally considering rogue or monk, but honestly the benefits from monk far outweigh the benefits from rogue, so really the question is, do the benefits from splashing monk, outweigh the benefits from the capstone.

A perfect example of this ... just yesterday I was in a epic - the rogue in our party could evade the traps, but couldn't find the boxes nor disarm them, I could find the boxes and disarm them (with a roll of 3) but couldn't evade the traps and had to be rez'd on the other side ... a very expensive way to disarm traps - let me assure you!


Monk Splash Benefits:

- More hp (we pull huge aggro, this helps loads)
- Monkey path 1 (nice for traps)
- 2 bonus feats (gives me free toughness, possibly x2)
- evasion
- better will / fort saves (very weak on an arty, so actually very useful)

Monk Splash Negatives:

- I lose 2d10 runearm damage (possibly a loss of 3-400 out of 5k+ on max 5 charge crit)
- I lose 2 lv6 spell slots + a lv4 (this honestly is the largest drawback for me personally)
- No capstone (makes all clickies work as lv20 spells)
- 1 Base attack bonus (easily fixed with TR'ing once as a fighter really)


My leveling starting / leveling stats: (already ate +2 tomes for every stat)

Str: 8 +2tome
Dex: 17 +2tome
Con: 14 +2tome
Int: 17 +2tome (all leveling points here)
Cha: 8 +2tome
Wis: 8 +2tome

My enhancements are going to look like this roughly:

Class Unlocks (for Battle Engi / Dmg / etc):

Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Artificer Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Attack I
Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Damage II
Enhancement: Artificer Improved Rune Arm Use IIII
Enhancement: Artificer Rune Arm Overcharge II
Enhancement: Artificer Battle Engineer I


Utility:

Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Use Magic Device I
Enhancement: Improved Use Magic Device II
Enhancement: Improved Use Magic Device III
Enhancement: Improved Use Magic Device IV


Runearm / Spells / Healing:

**Reasoning: I level mainly with acid (peashooter/glorious), and endgame is my lucid dreams, I have no plans on ever using tovens currently, and if by some miracle I do get it - I can easily change my enhancements around)

Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting VI
Enhancement: Force Manipulation VII
Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics V

Enhancement: Deadly Acid I
Enhancement: Corrosive Spellcasting II
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation III

Enhancement: Mighty Reconstruction I
Enhancement: Reconstructive Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Repair Manipulation I

Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I

Stat Boost:
Enhancement: Artificer Intelligence II


**Enhancement concerns - I wonder if I really need to drop 4 pts in runearm overcharge 2 for that extra stable charge(2>3), those 4 points could be dropped into a damage like acod manipulation, capping it out. I guess it would come down to kungfu math skills, comparing the time it takes for that 1 charge to light up, vs, the extra base dmg I would get, of course, that would only matter while using the acid runearm, and would serve no benefit to the endgame force one hehe. Healers friend 2 & Wand/Scroll Mastery 4 are also both possible choices for those 4 pts as well, or changing when I get / if I ever get tovens.

Thank-you in advance for your helpful suggestions,

Cheers.

P.s. for those worried about reflex saves... buffs + insightful reflexes + high int + +10 from reign of madness + monkey + lightning (if i don't take the 2nd toughness), etc etc - getting my reflex up won't be an issue, lots of ways to get it up. I've already got a lot of the items made, it's just deciding if I take evasion or not.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I don't see any reason to splash on a second life character. Grab a GS HP item and buff your reflex save and no trap should be able to kill you. I just had this experience on my wizard when the artificer didn't have the reflex save to get through the traps in elite chains of flames (evasion doesn't help if you're failing your save). It didn't matter though as with 350 HP (L14) and close to +30 reflex (paladin dilettante) I could run through the trap and come out the other side with HP to spare.

Halfelf with rogue dilettante is my choice. You get the dex enhancement to even out your dex, higher int than WF, +3d6 SA, +4 saves vs traps, +5 saves/+25% damage versatility boost and enough spare feats to take construct essence if you need that.

I wouldn't skip capstone and the loss to rune arm damage from splashing makes it not worth it IMO.

[Correlan]

There's no need for spell pen on an arti imo, i'd go with empower, maximise and quicken. :)

[the.magister]

Exactly what kind of damage loss for my runearm am I losing for those 2 levels? I am curious to know how significant it is.

I know the calc for runearm dc is: 10 + {Charge Tier + 1} + {INT modifier} + {Max Charge Tier - 1} + {Evocation Feat Bonuses}

Do you have something similar to show how my arty level effects the damage of it?

Also, I am going to be a warforged - that is set in stone. I want all the immunities, etc that come with the race, saves me a whole heap of hassle.

- Thanks cor, I was thinking spell pen maybe to help the struggling dc's out a little in the later levels - I was also concerned that max + emp would eat up our small SP pool up too quickly.

Honestly that feat can be just about anything, some other ideas I was toying around with were:

Mental Toughness for more sp (110)
Extend Spell (Since I throw out so many buffs)
Empower (more dmg on blade barrier)
Spell Penetration

[wax_on_wax_off]

Exactly what kind of damage loss for my runearm am I losing for those 2 levels? I am curious to know how significant it is.

I know the calc for runearm dc is: 10 + {Charge Tier + 1} + {INT modifier} + {Max Charge Tier - 1} + {Evocation Feat Bonuses}

Do you have something similar to show how my arty level effects the damage of it?

Also, I am going to be a warforged - that is set in stone. I want all the immunities, etc that come with the race, saves me a whole heap of hassle.

- Thanks cor, I was thinking spell pen maybe to help the struggling dc's out a little in the later levels - I was also concerned that max + emp would eat up our small SP pool up too quickly.

Honestly that feat can be just about anything, some other ideas I was toying around with were:

Mental Toughness for more sp (110)
Extend Spell (Since I throw out so many buffs)
Empower (more dmg on blade barrier)
Spell Penetration

Lucid Dreams at full charge does 8-30+1d10 per level. Don't know how that 8-30 is distributed but 5 shots at cl 20 adds up to 645 (which is why we take SF/GSF:Evocation). With only 18 CL it becomes 590. This is a difference of 9.3%. Enhancements/criticals aren't included in this but the % difference between the 2 will remain the same. At level 20 in raids it's expected rune arm contributes 40-50% of your overall DPS so losing out on 2 CL is a big deal.

Why warforged? It's a very popular choice and I realise that I'm a minority who prefers human (for crafting) or helf (for damage) but I'm just curious about your decision for change. I found that bein able to wand heal myself for over 100/pop (even more when I finish gear) was enough.

[the.magister]

Thanks for some hard numbers I can use to make an informed decision =)

Why warforged?

Let's start with the cons:

Cons:

> Less dmg (vs Helf, or 2 less int from Drow)
> 1 Less feat (human)
> less crafting (human)
> only 65% healing from divine spells (can go to 80 - but i won't invest that deeply)
> 6 wis (hurts an already poor wil save)


Pros:

> Immune to Sleep, Hold Person, Energy Drained, Nauseated, Exhausted, Poison, Disease, and Paralyzed effects.
> Immunity to spells targeting a humanoid.
> No need for a underwater action item
> Instant cast repair spells (such as reconstruct) - no need to swap to wand or scroll to heal = more up time = more dmg = less dying =)
> more hit points overall
> bonus 25% fortification
> can be healed by arcane and divine classes (no waiting for a cleric / fvs!)


Personally, the immunities more than anything else make it attractive to me. All those effect that can really ruin a fleshys day, just pass right through me.

This allows me to have an extremely high up time of pumping out dmg, and dmg is king in DDO. This also makes me think that those 2 levels of monk might not be so bad either, giving me higher saves + evasion will allow me to take less dmg, thus less healing and thus more dmg.

Also, The fact I can "oh sh*" heal with reconstruct instantly is just a bonus really. I found it terribly annoying to swap back and forth between wands / scrolls and my bow while kiting. Where as I could have simply hit a single keystroke and had a fraction of a second downtime, rather than 5 seconds of downtime. **side note, saves money on wands / scrolls =)

This also helps with clutter, as an arty I already have an army of clickies I carry around, going warforged helps me free up some inventory space and gives me less hotbar micro-managing, not a lot less, but I'll take what I can get.

I just find warforged to be far more self sufficient and in much less need of babysitting, than fleshy races, which is another big bonus for me. Honestly I kind of wish they allowed WF to be a free race so more new players would take it - and then they could focus a little more on learning fight mechanics and a little less time looking at their hotbars trying to find their remove disease/poison/heal/restore, etc wand/scroll =)

Anywho, that's my thinking.

---------

Getting back to the topic at hand, I think I am pretty comfortable with those 2 levels of loss, at least for 1 life. Now that I see how much damage I am roughly losing, I am willing to give it a go. I plan to TR at least 3 times, to take full advantage of the free arty TR feat.

If the monk splash ends up working out well, I will most likely add in at least 1 level of fighter to get back my +1 attack bonus, and possibly some ranger past lives for some more dmg.

Thanks for the replies

[wax_on_wax_off]

> Immune to Sleep Never been affected by this.
, Hold Person Better will save, Freedom of Movement, Kundarak boots, Spell Absorption
, Energy Drained Deathward (at CL:20 on clicky)
, Nauseated Lesser restoration potion
, Exhausted Lesser restoration potion
, Poison Wand of neutralise poison
, Disease Wand of remove disease
, and Paralyzed effects. See hold person above
> Immunity to spells targeting a humanoid. But you get decon'd and have to deal with rusties
> No need for a underwater action item I never need one anyway (99% of swims don't require it)
> Instant cast repair spells (such as reconstruct) - no need to swap to wand or scroll to heal = more up time = more dmg = less dying =) Construct Essence, Silver Flame pots
> more hit points overall Had 530 HP on my human artificer without a toughness item, how many do you want?
> bonus 25% fortification Heavy fortification is enough, you're not a tank.
> can be healed by arcane and divine classes (no waiting for a cleric / fvs!)Shouldn't wait anyway, artificer should be able to play healer in most content

Comments in red.

Overall I think warforged is a gimmick. You don't need the immunities as they're replaceable by cheap consumables in almost all cases. 2 of the strongest benefits of warforged while leveling are gone; energy drain immunity from beholders and earthgrab immunity no longer exist (pale lavender+deathward=beholders are a joke).

So you're losing almost 10% rune arm DPS from splashing.
You're losing 5% rune arm DPS from lower intelligence compared to half-elf, human or drow.
You're losing crossbow DPS from shorter durations on necessary combat buffs from no capstone (divine power, divine favour).
You don't have the CL:9 Divine Favour that alone makes the capstone worth it for DPS (+3 att/+3 dam).
You don't have versatility: damage or rogue dilettante.

This adds up to a pretty huge shortfall on raid DPS compared to a pure half-elf artificer. Is evasion/immunities really worth maybe doing only 80% of the DPS of a half-elf?

In other news, I'd fit in quickdraw.

[the.magister]

I really don't require quickdraw, because I don't need to be switching weapons out for wands, etc to cure all the stuff that you need to be curing =)

For the odd instance I actually do need to switch - I switch plenty fast enough without wasting a precious feat, I didn't take it my first life, don't really see any reason to take it on my 2nd.

I have some sneak attack damage on my gear, not the full 3d6 the feat gives, but in an already starved AP class, i don't have to spend 6pts to get that dmg either, it can be invested elsewhere.

I will get better will saves splashing monk =)
I do have the kunda boots, but I can't wear those & innocence boots (+5 saves) at the same time, conversely, I could wear +5 resistance cloak, but then i wouldn't be able to wear my upgraded madstone boots for instance, etc etc...

This is part of the reason I prefer warforge.

I don't need to spend time trying to juggle items to get this or that, nor do I have to waste time during a battle to swap to a wand or drink a potion.

Looking at the short side, yes I will do less dmg, long view however ... add up all the time you spend swapping in wands, scrolls, potions, boots, trinkets, etc and then factor in the same amount of time I am dps'ing because I don't need to do any of that.

Construct essence is a useless feat imho. Almost as bad as the improved fortification feat, but not quite and the side effect of silver flame pots are a big no no, i have no idea why anyone would willingly drink one of those (other than a tank in an emergency).

the bonus fort is mostly a benefit at low levels, i can turn that mod fort item into a heavy fort - end game really doesn't matter at all, but a bonus is a bonus.

An arty is in no shape, way or form a replacement for a proper healer =) - yes we can assist, but we are not a main healer no matter how well we scroll or how much utility we have (potion throwing) simple as that, and it's not how I play my class.

I look at my class as a dual wielding trap monkey. Hence why I want evasion.

I might lose out on a small amount of damage (on paper), but quite frankly i am willing to accept that. I would rather be 10-15% weaker than you and be happy with my build, than be 10-15% stronger and be miserable and not enjoy playing the character, and at the end of the day - if your not having fun then why are you playing?

Finally, I will never run with an "elite" 1% hardcore extreme bunch of elitists that require everyone to be min-maxed out the arse in order to join their group. I find those types of people terribly absurd and they make me wish for the ability to cause them great bodily harm via TCP/IP.

I did see your anti-splash arty post =) - Honestly the replies from other people assured me more that my monk splash was viable than your post did to dissuade me =)

Anywho, Thank-you very much for your input and suggestions. It never hurts to have feedback.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I really don't require quickdraw, because I don't need to be switching weapons out for wands, etc to cure all the stuff that you need to be curing =)

For the odd instance I actually do need to switch - I switch plenty fast enough without wasting a precious feat, I didn't take it my first life, don't really see any reason to take it on my 2nd.

I have some sneak attack damage on my gear, not the full 3d6 the feat gives, but in an already starved AP class, i don't have to spend 6pts to get that dmg either, it can be invested elsewhere.

I will get better will saves splashing monk =)
I do have the kunda boots, but I can't wear those & innocence boots (+5 saves) at the same time, conversely, I could wear +5 resistance cloak, but then i wouldn't be able to wear my upgraded madstone boots for instance, etc etc...

This is part of the reason I prefer warforge.

I don't need to spend time trying to juggle items to get this or that, nor do I have to waste time during a battle to swap to a wand or drink a potion.

Looking at the short side, yes I will do less dmg, long view however ... add up all the time you spend swapping in wands, scrolls, potions, boots, trinkets, etc and then factor in the same amount of time I am dps'ing because I don't need to do any of that.

Construct essence is a useless feat imho. Almost as bad as the improved fortification feat, but not quite and the side effect of silver flame pots are a big no no, i have no idea why anyone would willingly drink one of those (other than a tank in an emergency).

the bonus fort is mostly a benefit at low levels, i can turn that mod fort item into a heavy fort - end game really doesn't matter at all, but a bonus is a bonus.

An arty is in no shape, way or form a replacement for a proper healer =) - yes we can assist, but we are not a main healer no matter how well we scroll or how much utility we have (potion throwing) simple as that, and it's not how I play my class.

I look at my class as a dual wielding trap monkey. Hence why I want evasion.

I might lose out on a small amount of damage (on paper), but quite frankly i am willing to accept that. I would rather be 10-15% weaker than you and be happy with my build, than be 10-15% stronger and be miserable and not enjoy playing the character, and at the end of the day - if your not having fun then why are you playing?

Finally, I will never run with an "elite" 1% hardcore extreme bunch of elitists that require everyone to be min-maxed out the arse in order to join their group. I find those types of people terribly absurd and they make me wish for the ability to cause them great bodily harm via TCP/IP.

I did see your anti-splash arty post =) - Honestly the replies from other people assured me more that my monk splash was viable than your post did to dissuade me =)

Anywho, Thank-you very much for your input and suggestions. It never hurts to have feedback.

How do you heal yourself if you are using madstone boots?
Do you not switch items to using divine power and divine favour?
Only gear switching that I did on my artificer was for DP/DF clickies; rest of the time I was DPS'ing as had the HP and heal amp to be up personal with the boss and rely on mass cures.
Being happy with your character is the most important thing.
Artificer can heal most content, the only thing that an artificer can't do is cope with burst AoE or single target healing requirements (which should be restricted to raids or epics). If you choose not to play your character to its potential then that's your choice :)
Make sure that you add up your reflex save, you'll require considerable gear to hit the targets on some elite/epic traps (DC 60 elite monastery anyone? And if you can't do these ... what's the point again?)

[Correlan]

Honestly that feat can be just about anything, some other ideas I was toying around with were:

Mental Toughness for more sp (110)
Extend Spell (Since I throw out so many buffs)
Empower (more dmg on blade barrier)
Spell Penetration

I'd still go with empower, but that's just me :D That extra 110 sp won't last very long in epics, extend is pretty much useless on an arti. Seeing as the most useful buffs are infusions ie: Deadly weaps etc etc and can't be extended. If they could be extended and you were taking 40 mins between shrines you may want to re think your strategy. :)

[Correlan]

As for the whole WF vs any other race. Play the race you wish to play. WF Arti's are fun, okay, you may not be able to hit maximum Dps by splashing with 2 lvls of monk, but in all honesty, It's your toon. You'll have very reasonable saves and will cope with most content with regards to evasion. Monastary elite, is to be quite frank, a 'insert expletive here'. Most traps are avoidable, I've seen rogues and monk/paladin's get sliced and diced on those traps even with stupidly high saves. Go the long way round.

More importantly, enjoy your build. :)

[Dimbo]

Having Run an Arty to Level Twice now..

Unless you are TR ing immediately I see no Earthly Reason to Purposefully Avoid the Capstone.

It is the Singlemost best Capstone in the Game... Arguably.

Quickdraw is a Great DPS booster... And its Actual Function is Most Useful on an Arti.

GL with the Build

:)

[Postumus]

Exactly what kind of damage loss for my runearm am I losing for those 2 levels? I am curious to know how significant it is.

It is not particularly significant. I have no idea how Wax comes up with 645, but you are looking at around 2d10 less per shot on a lucid dreams, so around 10d10 base IF all 5 shots hit. Depending on how you are specced, and what rune arm you are actually using, worst case you might miss out on potentially 300-400 damage when you let loose a fully charged, 5 tier blast IF all 5 shots hit and crit.

The rune arm damage is listed for each runearm in the wiki, so you can see exactly what you will be potentially losing.


Regarding evasion. There are 'sweet spots' for most every trap in the game, but if you don't know where they are, (or constantly forget like I do) then evasion is a valid choice IMO. If you want more feats then the monk levels will help there.

The only thing I think you are really missing out on by splashing is the capstone; but since you have a pure arti now, you should have an idea of how valuable the capstone is to you. If you personally don't see much value in it, and some don't, then splash. Heck, you can always Lesser Reincarnate if you change your mind later on.





I was also concerned that max + emp would eat up our small SP pool up too quickly.

Honestly that feat can be just about anything, some other ideas I was toying around with were:

Mental Toughness for more sp (110)
Extend Spell (Since I throw out so many buffs)
Empower (more dmg on blade barrier)
Spell Penetration

Does extend work with the arti infusion buffs? I know at first it didn't (or didn't seem to) so maybe that has been changed. Most of the arti buffs are based on caster level, so after 6th level, extend doesn't seem very useful to me since it seems like you never go more than five or six minutes without a shrine in most quests.

I max+empower my blade barriers, and usually max+empower my prismatic strike and tactical detonations as well. With an archivists necklace, a twisted talisman, and whatever pots you pick up along the way (not including the multitude of wands and scrolls) I wouldn't think mana conservation would be much of a problem.

[Postumus]

Overall I think warforged is a gimmick.

OK. Well having played both fleshie artis and WF artis I know a WF is much easier to play. It's almost a joke. Construct Essence and SF pots > self healing? No way.




> bonus 25% fortification Heavy fortification is enough, you're not a tank.

I'm pretty sure you know that mobs with rogue levels can bypass up to what 25-30% fortification now? So I'm confused why you would tell anyone 100% fort is enough. Did you think medium fort was 'enough fort' for non-tanks in the past?



> can be healed by arcane and divine classes (no waiting for a cleric / fvs!)Shouldn't wait anyway, artificer should be able to play healer in most content

I agree that an artificer, especially a WF artificer, should NEVER even care if a healer is present or not. I don't know about 'should be able to play the healer in most content.' I suppose if you wanted to burn through your pots and scrolls to heal people less effectively than a bard, sure.

[Machination]

Comments in red.

Overall I think warforged is a gimmick. You don't need the immunities as they're replaceable by cheap consumables in almost all cases. 2 of the strongest benefits of warforged while leveling are gone; energy drain immunity from beholders and earthgrab immunity no longer exist (pale lavender+deathward=beholders are a joke).

So you're losing almost 10% rune arm DPS from splashing.
You're losing 5% rune arm DPS from lower intelligence compared to half-elf, human or drow.
You're losing crossbow DPS from shorter durations on necessary combat buffs from no capstone (divine power, divine favour).
You don't have the CL:9 Divine Favour that alone makes the capstone worth it for DPS (+3 att/+3 dam).
You don't have versatility: damage or rogue dilettante.

This adds up to a pretty huge shortfall on raid DPS compared to a pure half-elf artificer. Is evasion/immunities really worth maybe doing only 80% of the DPS of a half-elf?

In other news, I'd fit in quickdraw.

WaxonWaxoff makes great points here. I was going to make many of the points he made above and so second them, but just a couple of additional comments here:

1. UMD. At cap my human arti life was doing 350hp on a heal scroll. You should be able to use any scroll in the game. Any. I never even bothered either the construct essence

2. That arti capstone is pretty fun, and as a couple of others have said one of the best capstones in the game, once you get to 20. Definitely something I would prefer rather than evasion, especially considering the other downsides of splashing.

3. You never posted your starting and leveling stats.

[Dwithian]

For me, I will NEVER splash my Artificer. I love the capstone too much. Anyone use the sp ring from the sands (forget the name)? 3 charges @ 105sp each (315) compared to 3x 25sp(75).

Don't get me wrong, I love the evasion feat. I love it on my Ranger, I even splash 2 rogue on my WF Barb back in the day when you could pick Crit rage Enhanment, and I still play him from time to time. I also have evasion on my 3rd life Pal/Fig/Monk build.

The Evasion feat would have to be one of my all time fav feats to have on any toon. Oh, how much I would love to have evasion on my Arificer :( But the class has so poor relex saves for evasion to be useful for the cost.

My 2nd life Lv20 Human Artificer had a Dex of 32 & his reflex save sucked compared to my Lv20 Elf Ranger which had a Dex of 36. This is because the Ranger class has a strong reflex base to build on to. The Artificer has a poor reflex save base.

If you are going to splash two levels for the evasion feat, wouldn't it be better to go with a class that fits better with a class the uses Int & Dex as the Artificer does? Like Rogue?? Atleast rogues & artificers share the same class skills. But you still take a hit to your caster levels, in which the Artificer is, a caster.

I've never played a Rogue, but if I did, I would be so glad that Artificers SUCK when it comes to "evading" traps. Otherwise, there goes another reason to take a Rogue over a Artificer in your party where taking a hit from a trap was required to complete a quest/raid.

Regards to Extend feat, 20 min buffs are long enough. My buffs rarely run out before the next shrine & when they do, I have the SP to re-cast without draining my SP pool.

On the whole WF V's Human/Helf/Drow
I have to go with Human, extra feat & skill points.
It all comes down to, what's your "end game" for this guy? Most 'High level' & 'End game' gear can cover all the "pro's" you list for going Warforged. So the question I ask you is, what else are you gaining by going Warforged over say Human? What gear slots are you saving and what are you filling these slots with that a Human will miss out on?

If I was to rate the "Gains" V's "Losses" in numeral value, I would say your giving up 12 to gain 6.

At the end of the day, play what Race/Classes you want. Be it for favor or "best" build possiable. Best of luck to your toon & my the loot gods shine apon us all :)

Edit: Which Artificer spell requires Spell Pen??

[BoolZ]

>snip<
Getting back to the topic at hand, I think I am pretty comfortable with those 2 levels of loss, at least for 1 life. Now that I see how much damage I am roughly losing, I am willing to give it a go. I plan to TR at least 3 times, to take full advantage of the free arty TR feat.

>snip<

Then just play the build you want to play. Try it out. If it doesn't work, or just not as well as you'd like, change it next life.

I would skip ftr past lives though. To hit shouldn't be a problem with the arty clickies/scrolls. Even without capstone they still get boosted a bit. I think scrolls are +5lvls at like lvl13 or so. That + damage from 3 ranger lives could be well worth it though.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Then just play the build you want to play. Try it out. If it doesn't work, or just not as well as you'd like, change it next life.

I would skip ftr past lives though. To hit shouldn't be a problem with the arty clickies/scrolls. Even without capstone they still get boosted a bit. I think scrolls are +5lvls at like lvl13 or so. That + damage from 3 ranger lives could be well worth it though.

The 5th +scroll level at 13 isn't received (bug). Outcome is that the only way you can get the +2/+2 divine favour buff on an 18/2 split is if you find a clicky on an outfit (haven't seen any and I've been keeping my eye out).

That drops it down to +1/+1 which isn't worth gear swaps to activate. Conclusion: +3 att/dam that a splash build loses (so you could do 3 fighter and 3 monk PL's OR you could go pure ... hmm, tough choice). Mind you, you can get +2 luck bonus to attack from recitation but that buff doesn't seem too reliable from others (unless a tank needs it for AC) and more gear swaps for short duration if self cast.

[Shanzookie]

Didn't really see the stats for your first life to compaire to your second, but no matter..


I made a WF Arti leveled it to 20 and quite frankly love it! it's very fun to play (very easy to solo when leveling), End result was. At lvl 20 with a Epic Ring of te Artifice, which if you go WF is a must, and easy to get thru the new challanges, Bracelet of Madnesss from HOX, Quorforged Docet of battle from Mindsunder, Also Epic Docet from turn of tides chain is very nice, Tinkers Set from House C quest (For your Trapmonkeyness), Get a Torc, And make a GS cord-op, and the Epic Spyglass (also for your epic tramonkeyness)

Endall.
550hp+ with raid & ship buffs,Minos (which can be Augmented out with your gear if you for the Epic coinage)
1,500sp
Regen HP/SP from torc/Cord-op
Reconstruct hits you for 300-560+ (Avg/Crit) Depending on how much Enhancemnt focus Repair you take.
Runarm from Mindsunder (Enchantments maxed for force dmg) 2 shot the dummy!
Epic the Xbows from the F2P quest for the expantion = Harry beater + Trash toys
Go Admintine Body + a few Enhancements for WF Insribed Armor Will make youmore tankish when you do get that agro.
Augment Summoning, My lvl 20 Pup Rocks! 880HP raid buffed, Dose decent DMG and has Nice modules (harry beater/portal beater, Smits, Disruptions, banishment, Etc..)

And Just plaine Remeber, an Arti is a supporting class, not much you can do to totally tank it up unless it's a completionest with all the bells and whistles and plus some..

State wise,
First lifer Arti WF 32pnt build
24/16/27/35/12 +2(to all)
No Insightful stat pnts yet - +2 int from spyglass.
just use your insightful spells to go off of your Int Mods. Why you need dex?
IMO only take dex if you go for an evasion class/splash otherwise you should be in a situation that requires you to make a high reflex save.

Generally Always take max your Main stat, Secondary ALWAYS con, never below 16(you can not make a bad build if you do that), ok well you can but it'll be poor management and player skillz to be blamed if you do., and dump your rest into something usefull. depending on class/presteige (like CHA for your UMD, STR is not needed for arti as you have the insightful spells, but done hurt if you go INT/CON/STR(as mine)) Also, you can use insightful on other weapons just not Xbows. Keep that in mind.

I am on cannith, have 14 toons, 5 TR's 7 20's working on completionest, and been playing since 2009. I might have an ideal how to make a toon or two maybe... (shrugs)

Disclaimer: These are of corse just my Opinions, and dose not reflect the people on the Cannith server, or any other server, DDO forums, Posters, Threaders, or anyone else in the world's Thoughts, Opinions, Beliefs....


Thanks
-Shan

Oh P.S. Only have Quicken, & Highten, which is enough, Maximize would be nice for BB.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Didn't really see the stats for your first life to compaire to your second, but no matter..


I made a WF Arti leveled it to 20 and quite frankly love it! it's very fun to play (very easy to solo when leveling), End result was. At lvl 20 with a Epic Ring of te Artifice, which if you go WF is a must, and easy to get thru the new challanges, Bracelet of Madnesss from HOX, Quorforged Docet of battle from Mindsunder, Also Epic Docet from turn of tides chain is very nice, Tinkers Set from House C quest (For your Trapmonkeyness), Get a Torc, And make a GS cord-op, and the Epic Spyglass (also for your epic tramonkeyness)

Endall.
550hp+ with raid & ship buffs,Minos (which can be Augmented out with your gear if you for the Epic coinage)
1,500sp
Regen HP/SP from torc/Cord-op
Reconstruct hits you for 300-560+ (Avg/Crit) Depending on how much Enhancemnt focus Repair you take.
Runarm from Mindsunder (Enchantments maxed for force dmg) 2 shot the dummy!
Epic the Xbows from the F2P quest for the expantion = Harry beater + Trash toys
Go Admintine Body + a few Enhancements for WF Insribed Armor Will make youmore tankish when you do get that agro.
Augment Summoning, My lvl 20 Pup Rocks! 880HP raid buffed, Dose decent DMG and has Nice modules (harry beater/portal beater, Smits, Disruptions, banishment, Etc..)

And Just plaine Remeber, an Arti is a supporting class, not much you can do to totally tank it up unless it's a completionest with all the bells and whistles and plus some..

State wise,
First lifer Arti WF 32pnt build
24/16/27/35/12 +2(to all)
No Insightful stat pnts yet - +2 int from spyglass.
just use your insightful spells to go off of your Int Mods. Why you need dex?
IMO only take dex if you go for an evasion class/splash otherwise you should be in a situation that requires you to make a high reflex save.

Generally Always take max your Main stat, Secondary ALWAYS con, never below 16(you can not make a bad build if you do that), ok well you can but it'll be poor management and player skillz to be blamed if you do., and dump your rest into something usefull. depending on class/presteige (like CHA for your UMD, STR is not needed for arti as you have the insightful spells, but done hurt if you go INT/CON/STR(as mine)) Also, you can use insightful on other weapons just not Xbows. Keep that in mind.

I am on cannith, have 14 toons, 5 TR's 7 20's working on completionest, and been playing since 2009. I might have an ideal how to make a toon or two maybe... (shrugs)

Disclaimer: These are of corse just my Opinions, and dose not reflect the people on the Cannith server, or any other server, DDO forums, Posters, Threaders, or anyone else in the world's Thoughts, Opinions, Beliefs....


Thanks
-Shan

Oh P.S. Only have Quicken, & Highten, which is enough, Maximize would be nice for BB.

Bit confused here, is this a melee build? I don't see you mentioning dexterity and yet you refer to using a crossbow, does that mean you don't have improved precise shot? Do you use bastard swords/dwarven axes as well?

[Maxallu]

IMO, don't splash, go WF. Why switch items and or gear to heal yourself when you can cast a recon? silly if you ask me.

What are the negatives of a wf arty? One less feat then a human? so what, they get plenty of feats. 1/2 healing? so what, they get recon. Skill point penalties? You can still have great umd with low cha. No penalty to Dex/int/con and those are the stats that matter.

Don't listen to the WF haters. WF are the superior race and they make the BEST Artys.

SP is useless on an arty.

PBS, rapid shot, toughness, improved crit ranged, precise shot, improved precise shot, maximize, empower, quicken, Evocation focus, skill focus UMD/greater focus evo.

max out rune arm enhancements, get yourself a lucid dreams and max out force line, you are good to go.

Edit: great reason to not splash: Blade Barrier. Artys have the best BBs in the game, it would be a shame to have to not get BB until lvl 17. Plus, 2 lvls of monk are a waste.

[Postumus]

WF are the superior race and they make the BEST Artys.

SP is useless on an arty.



I agree with the first part, disagree with the second part. With a Lucid Dreams, max force enhancements, max, empower, and a force clicky, artis can do some really great damage with blade barrier, tactical detonation, and prismatic strike.

Mine is sitting on just under 1400 SPs without any mental toughness type enhancements/feats and it is great to nuke when you have to.

[MartinusWyllt]

I love the capstone too much. Anyone use the sp ring from the sands (forget the name)? 3 charges @ 105sp each (315) compared to 3x 25sp(75).

You still get your caster level bonuses for clickies. 4 of them with at least 16 artificer levels. So it is 3x 45sp at CL 8.

[MartinusWyllt]

What are the negatives of a wf arty? One less feat then a human? so what, they get plenty of feats. 1/2 healing? so what, they get recon. Skill point penalties? You can still have great umd with low cha. No penalty to Dex/int/con and those are the stats that matter....

Edit: great reason to not splash: Blade Barrier. Artys have the best BBs in the game, it would be a shame to have to not get BB until lvl 17. Plus, 2 lvls of monk are a waste.

Unless you want the crafting marks, of course, then human is required.

Have you played the monk splash? Lots of fun. While BB before 17 might have had been useful evasion was very useful. Mine hits a 34-36 reflex save without trying very hard. (that one is a WF)

[HungarianRhapsody]

I agree with the first part, disagree with the second part. With a Lucid Dreams, max force enhancements, max, empower, and a force clicky, artis can do some really great damage with blade barrier, tactical detonation, and prismatic strike.

Mine is sitting on just under 1400 SPs without any mental toughness type enhancements/feats and it is great to nuke when you have to.

I believe that Maxallu was saying that Spell Penetration is useless on an Artificer. Spell Points are quite useful since Artis have some very nice spells.

[Shanzookie]

Bit confused here, is this a melee build? I don't see you mentioning dexterity and yet you refer to using a crossbow, does that mean you don't have improved precise shot? Do you use bastard swords/dwarven axes as well?

Your insightful spells take the Mod from int instead of dex (insightfull strike) and STR (insightful DMG), and no i have no precose feats, i've found like i actually enjoy having things be infront of my initial target and hit them too.(on this paticular build anyways). Unfortunitly you can not use borth insightfull spells at the same time, but you can cast one on 1 weapon, and another on a diffrent weapon. And also you can use those spells on Swords! And actually i use great swords with insightful+masters touch, and you can also get yourself a Divine power clickyif need be. But if you are thinking of swinging a terror around i would use str as 3rd stat.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Your insightful spells take the Mod from int instead of dex (insightfull strike) and STR (insightful DMG), and no i have no precose feats, i've found like i actually enjoy having things be infront of my initial target and hit them too.(on this paticular build anyways). Unfortunitly you can not use borth insightfull spells at the same time, but you can cast one on 1 weapon, and another on a diffrent weapon. And also you can use those spells on Swords! And actually i use great swords with insightful+masters touch, and you can also get yourself a Divine power clickyif need be. But if you are thinking of swinging a terror around i would use str as 3rd stat.

Yes, I'm very aware of the mechanics involved; my most recent life as an Artificer was a int/str/con Typhon build (in my sig). Improved Critical: Slashing and Terror was a great quest clearer, Epic Chimera's Fang (with full THF'ing feats) was awesome for bosses and group quests and crossbow was useful for challenges and some specific situations (Epic Hellfire usually which has precise shot).

The only compelling DPS argument for melee weapons on an artificer is if you have full THF'ing feats (doesn't sound like you do), improved critical and dwarven axe/bastard sword proficiency.

Not sure what content you play but Insightful Strikes is very low DPS and you need a decent dex to avoid the low DPS option of Insightful Strikes. (Epic) Doublecross bow might work for you as it already uses int mod for attack but overall this isn't a DPS character (unless you've maxed the bastardsword/dwarven axe avenue).

[Shanzookie]

Yes, I'm very aware of the mechanics involved; my most recent life as an Artificer was a int/str/con Typhon build (in my sig). Improved Critical: Slashing and Terror was a great quest clearer, Epic Chimera's Fang (with full THF'ing feats) was awesome for bosses and group quests and crossbow was useful for challenges and some specific situations (Epic Hellfire usually which has precise shot).

The only compelling DPS argument for melee weapons on an artificer is if you have full THF'ing feats (doesn't sound like you do), improved critical and dwarven axe/bastard sword proficiency.

Not sure what content you play but Insightful Strikes is very low DPS and you need a decent dex to avoid the low DPS option of Insightful Strikes. (Epic) Doublecross bow might work for you as it already uses int mod for attack but overall this isn't a DPS character (unless you've maxed the bastardsword/dwarven axe avenue).

We my xbows do minimal 65dmg per hit not counting the other effects the Xbow might have and since they are repeaters that is base 120dmg + effects, crits range from 160-250, not counting purple crit numbers, and my runarm dose base 250 dmg - 1080 crit per force shot from the mindsunder runearm. Add endless fusillade and your doing dencent dmg/sec for an arti, i would not set all my eggs to use bastard swords(waste of a feat) or dwarven axes (unless you go dwarf) So you do the math, how many shots you get from fusullade+heavery repeater+effects on weapon in 5 seconds + Runearm DMG? then tell me it's not any form of DPS. It's like saying Sorc, or a Wiz isn't DPS (Damage Per Second), Is it a Melee? No... As i stated, Arti's are a support class, like bards. If you want to build a Melee Arti then muti-class, pick diffrent race & stats, and go for it. But for my knowladge i thought this was a discussion on pure arti build, and advice for the young lad.

[wax_on_wax_off]

We my xbows do minimal 65dmg per hit not counting the other effects the Xbow might have and since they are repeaters that is base 120dmg + effects, crits range from 160-250, not counting purple crit numbers, and my runarm dose base 250 dmg - 1080 crit per force shot from the mindsunder runearm. Add endless fusillade and your doing dencent dmg/sec for an arti, i would not set all my eggs to use bastard swords(waste of a feat) or dwarven axes (unless you go dwarf) So you do the math, how many shots you get from fusullade+heavery repeater+effects on weapon in 5 seconds + Runearm DMG? then tell me it's not any form of DPS. It's like saying Sorc, or a Wiz isn't DPS (Damage Per Second), Is it a Melee? No... As i stated, Arti's are a support class, like bards. If you want to build a Melee Arti then muti-class, pick diffrent race & stats, and go for it. But for my knowladge i thought this was a discussion on pure arti build, and advice for the young lad.

2 pure int based melee artificer builds in my sig who have probably close to the same ranged damage as you but much more melee damage (more damage than what any artificer but a half-elf can put out).

Atificers are good DPS when mobs are failing their saves vs rune arm 95% of the time and you are hitting with your crossbow with insightful damage on. If either of these conditions isn't true then it quickly becomes mediocre. I enjoyed the crossbow on my melee artificer, it was very effective in easy content or if the damage didn't matter so much but in difficult content having a proper high AB/DPS option matters. You don't have a high AB/DPS option (unless you have a bunch of PL's and are fully decked out in epic gear but even with epic ravens set etc low dex still doesn't cut it in end game content).

Pure artificer crossbow build=int, dex, con as the priorities. Max int, enough dex for IPS and the rest in con. Nothing else makes much sense.