Wisdom or Charisma Based?

[Cajundoc]

Im lookin for advice on FvS`s , i always get confused on Evoker builds - do i go with more Wisdom or Charisma? I know con is always a runner up 2nd place but i can never figure it out.

[Nysrock]

Evoker would be Wisdom to increase the DC's of your spells. Just remember that Charisma gives you SP and Wisdom gives you DC.

[mute_mayhem]

Wisdom without a doubt. The few spell points you'd get from being charisma based are not worth giving up your spell DCs for.

[BladeTricks]

CHA also determines whether or not you can learn and cast nth level spells. You need CHA >= 10 + n

[Isharah]

Wisdom without a doubt. The few spell points you'd get from being charisma based are not worth giving up your spell DCs for.

This is true, unless you dedicate yourself to raid healing at end-game, where your wisdom won't be worth much.

If you're not severely minmaxing, you can go wisdom-based and still be a healbot at end-game. ;)

[Anthios888]

18 WIS unless you're in melee. Casting adds an entire dimension to your character that in practice saves a lot of healing because of your ability to dispach of scary mobs and crowd control. A miniscule amount of spell points will not add any dimension to your character when the only thing you do effectively is heal.

[Anthios888]

This is true, unless you dedicate yourself to raid healing at end-game, where your wisdom won't be worth much.

In what raid is wisdom not worth much? Maybe epic demon queen?

[Cajundoc]

Thank you all who helped! very much helpful.

[Phidius]

The question isn't Wisdom vs Charisma, it's Wisdom vs Strength.

Either way, you want enough Charisma to cast your highest level spell, keeping in mind such things as Dispel Magic and Mordenkeenenenenennene (sp) Disjunction.

[mute_mayhem]

This is true, unless you dedicate yourself to raid healing at end-game, where your wisdom won't be worth much.

If you're not severely minmaxing, you can go wisdom-based and still be a healbot at end-game. ;)

Again, wisdom > charisma for an evoker, regardless of the situation. If those 150ish spell points are the difference between you being able to raid heal and not being able to raid heal, you might have other issues.

[MRMechMan]

Charisma based makes you a very very slightly better healbot.

Wisdom based makes you an engine of destruction that can solo most quests.

[Esserbe]

Difference between a 20 Charisma (easily attainable with 12 base + 6 item + 2 tome) and a silly high like 36 Charisma at 20 is 232 sp. It's a decent amount, but not a decent enough amount to completely give up on offensive casting by killing your DCs, which is what an evoker build is about.

[Braegan]

Charisma based makes you a very very slightly better healbot.

Wisdom based makes you an engine of destruction that can solo most quests.

This.

Wisdom build FTW!

[pHo3nix]

The question isn't Wisdom vs Charisma, it's Wisdom vs Strength.

Either way, you want enough Charisma to cast your highest level spell, keeping in mind such things as Dispel Magic and Mordenkeenenenenennene (sp) Disjunction.

This. 10 base charisma is enough.

[nix_vali]

This is true, unless you dedicate yourself to raid healing at end-game, where your wisdom won't be worth much.

If you're not severely minmaxing, you can go wisdom-based and still be a healbot at end-game. ;)

That is actually not true atall .

The Evoker brings alot more then just heals to any raid .DP for bosses/rednames , slay living/destruction and the implosion wit a high wis insta kills most epic mobs even in elotb lol .



Im lookin for advice on FvS`s , i always get confused on Evoker builds - do i go with more Wisdom or Charisma? I know con is always a runner up 2nd place but i can never figure it out.


You can start with 12 charisma which is more then enough and have 18 in wisdom .

[Carpone]

This is true, unless you dedicate yourself to raid healing at end-game, where your wisdom won't be worth much.
The 28 mana you gain per 2 Charisma does not make a bit of difference in your healing ability. There's zero reason to pigeonhole an fvs into a healing-only role at end-game.

[Gorbadoc]

Wisdom without a doubt. The few spell points you'd get from being charisma based are not worth giving up your spell DCs for.

This point has been made repeatedly, but let's tie some numbers (http://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_point#Bonus_spell_points) to it.

On a level 20 pure favored soul, you're looking at 29 bonus spell points per two charisma. For the sake of an example, let's assume you can get a +2 charisma tome, a +6 item, and the first +1 charisma enhancement (nothing too fancy). That's +9 on top of whatever you had at character creation.

To cast level 9 spells, you'll need to start with 10 base (10+9=19). This is basically what my LoB FvS has, and he sits at about 2400 SP (that's with a decent +SP item, but no greensteel). So, minimalist charisma and readily-obtainable gear gives ~2400 SP.

Let's say you're a no-charisma-adjustment race, and you invest 6 points in charisma at character creation. After all, it's low-hanging fruit, right? That's 14 base, or 4 points more than the previous example. 4 build points = 58 SP.

Let's say you start really cutting into your other stats: you start with 17 charisma, and you give it all your levelups. That's a total 22 base charisma-- 8 more points than the previous example. We can safely assume those levelup points would have gone into wisdom (+DCs) or strength (+melee attack and damage). 7 more build points and -5 str or wis = 116 additional SP.

These numbers just don't sell me on the idea of extra charisma for spell points. Every little bit helps, of course, but if I'm cutting a quest so close that a hundred SP make the difference between success and failure, chances are good that stronger attacks (strength), more hit points (constitution) or better DCs (wisdom) will help more. Besides, for raids that I know are a little beyond my capability, mnemonic pots can help with SP, but not with DCs or damage.

[Matuse]

On a level 20 pure favored soul, you're looking at 29 bonus spell points per two charisma. For the sake of an example, let's assume you can get a +2 charisma tome, a +6 item, and the first +1 charisma enhancement (nothing too fancy). That's +9 on top of whatever you had at character creation.

Capstone, +11.

[Isharah]

Like everyone else, I agree that wis-based is easier to deal with and is also effective in the healer niche at end game. But try to look at it like this: *if* something is good to invest in, but it's very unlikely that you're going to use that "something" anyway, then better not invest in it at all.

Also, on raid bosses divine punishment will be your bling, and it isn't affected by your wisdom in any way.

Looks like quite a few people totally misunderstood my first post. :p So much for "unless" and "if".

[TheDjinnFor]

Like everyone else, I agree that wis-based is easier to deal with and is also effective in the healer niche at end game. But try to look at it like this: *if* something is good to invest in, but it's very unlikely that you're going to use that "something" anyway, then better not invest in it at all.

Conversely, if something is not good to invest in (extra sp for healing), but it's very likely that you'll be using that something a lot (spending most of your time healing raids), its still doesn't change the fact that its probably better not to invest in it at all.

If you're making a healbot favored soul, make a melee favored soul. Dump wis and cha, invest in str and con. Has slightly less sp than a healbot soul, but way more utility in a raid. Just focus quickened mass heals on yourself, DP the raid boss every few 12 seconds, and in the downtime let your auto attacks be of some utility.

[Isharah]

Conversely, if something is not good to invest in (extra sp for healing), but it's very likely that you'll be using that something a lot (spending most of your time healing raids), its still doesn't change the fact that its probably better not to invest in it at all.

The fact that you'll be using that something a lot should already remove it from your "not good to invest in" list, although it's perfectly fine if it's not at the top of your "priority" list.

[TheDjinnFor]

The fact that you'll be using that something a lot should already remove it from your "not good to invest in" list

It depends entirely on how effectively those investments actually contribute toward you doing the job better.

The difference between investing in Cha and Wis on a healbot soul is the difference between investing $1 million in the following ventures:

-one that's got a 2% chance to return $25 million, or otherwise fails horribly with a $0 return (i.e. investing in wis, something that is rarely valuable)
-one that's got a 100% chance to return $500k (i.e. investing in cha, something that has a guaranteed return... that sucks)

As you can see, both investments suck, they just have different causes for doing so.

[Sarisa]

Investing in a few more tiers of Wand and Scroll Mastery makes more of a difference in raid healing (for the tank based scroll healing fests like ToD and LoB) than the 100-150 SP you get from massive investment in CHA.

[nix_vali]

Also, on raid bosses divine punishment will be your bling, and it isn't affected by your wisdom in any way.

I have never said wis affected dp lol...



The Evoker brings alot more then just heals to any raid .DP for bosses/rednames , slay living/destruction and the implosion wit a high wis insta kills most epic mobs even in elotb lol .



Pointed out that the Evoker can do much more then just ur mindless nannybot that usually runs around in most raids.

[good_ole_corwin]

Wisdom all the way. Or at least STR and melee, even though I dont like melee personally. My previous life was a wis-based FvS (3rd life, but only with a cleric and a monk PL, no wiz or sorc), started with 11 charisma. Had admittedly above-average gear in the end, but was running with 42 fully buffed wis, 2950-ish SP, greater enchantment/evo/necro focus items (no SF feats), effective (including AoV aura) spell pen 30. Regularly ran eChrono, eVoN, hard ToD (elite once or twice), hard/elite VoD, LoB (mostly normal, a couple of times on hard), a couple of elite Shrouds (but usually hard), stuff like that - not "uber", but IMHO rather above than below average difficulty and drinking a pot was an exception rather than the rule. Now I could have gone all charisma and have it MAYBE 18 higher (7 at start, 5 lvl ups, the remaining 4 is +2 exceptional and enhancement tier or 2 I didnt take AFAIK) for 261 extra SP at cap. Thats a below average roll on a pot - I spent about 5 months at capt, raiding daily and in that time, that would have saved me maybe 20-30 pots at best.

However, going charisma based would definitely have cost me the ability to
solo eClaw, elite Weapons Shipment
solo eProblem, eVoN1, eCrashers, eSnitch (soloing Crateos must have been the only moment I ever wanted to be a melee divine, lol) - except the end fights, even though I usually didnt actually try that hard (got people in for the end if just for the extra seal chances)
CC the abishai in eChrono, help instakill arties and CC golems in LoB/MA and in general step in the traditionally arcane role when things go south
lead the killcount in eDA (lol, so important, I know)

Theres probably more, but I dont want to reminisce too much, since Im going through a melee life right now and its painful enough as it is. But you get the picture. Also, thats just stuff at cap, not talking about getting there - levelling a non-melee, non-DC FvS must be FUN...

So the only question is, are things like that worth more to you than a pot or two every few raids? Assuming the utility of reasonable DCs didnt save more healing SP than the charisma gives you, which probably is not a correct assumption in the first place.

[Isharah]

*snip*

Apparently you forgot the other half of my reply.


although it's perfectly fine if it's not at the top of your "priority" list.

If you know that you will be healing or DPing 99% of the time at level 20, then I don't think you should rule out the option of getting more SP, moreover since you aren't ruling out that 1% either.


I have never said wis affected dp lol...


Lol I'm not talking to you specifically. :p


This is true, unless you dedicate yourself to raid healing at end-game, where your wisdom won't be worth much.


And with "this", I mean going wisdom-based. Made the post to show the OP the reason why some FvS with the evoker PrE opt to go Charisma-based instead, but apparently people see "wisdom won't be worth much" and prance right away, without considering the premise that I so clearly stated. ;)

Anyhow, I suppose the OP got a strong enough reply from everyone here. XD

Cheers.

[Anthios888]

one that's got a 2% chance to return $25 million, or otherwise fails horribly with a $0 return (i.e. investing in wis, something that is rarely valuable)

Let's see ...

Epic Plane of Night - Did you know that mephits have horrible will saves? No bard needed here on 2nd base with a Greater Command or Symbol of Stunning. Or, right as the party is killing that pillar and maybe some mephits wake up, your implosion will keep the ones off the melees.

Epic Vault of Night (von5) - Did you know that undead can be imploded? Warforged destructed, greater commanded, stunned? That cometfall can knock down groups of monsters as well as dealing 600-1400 damage?

Lord of Blades, every difficulty - Don't let those artificers and sneak attack assassins get you down; get them down. If you have run elite or epic, you will be especially disappointed to be a healbot while easy-to-dispach trash mobs have their way with you and the party. But an effective destruction, slay living, implosion, greater command, symbol of stunning -- all placed in the right spot -- can take these warforged to the wrecking pile where they belong. Also important in this raid is debuffing. Reducing the Lord's saves will amp up your party's DPS if you are running with improved sunder or touch of death characters whose abilities rely on succeeding saves. Reducing the Lord's to-hit is important on any difficulty where your tank is using armor class in any way. A spell Bestow Curse will stack with other types of curses. Even the lowly level 1 spell Bane is like giving your tank 1 additional armor class. Even running to the quest ... did you know that construct balls can be imploded, but not destructed/fingered?

Shroud - Symbol of stunning those part 2 maze or part 4 respawn devils. Destruct/implode everything else. Why stand around relying on others w.aiting for the quest to advance? On difficulties above normal, Harry has evasion. Without decent WIS, cometfall is out of the picture as a nuke spell.

Hound of Xoriat - Destructable trash mobs.

Vision of Destruction - Symbol of stunning extremely effective against teleporting devils. These guys are offensive and need to be dealt with quickly, because the longer they're on the party, the more damage the party will take. Destruction implosion etc. Symbol of Death the bats if you want for an easy conclusion (though I cannot fit this spell in my setup).

Master Artificer - Artificers, assassins, oh my! Destruct destruct destruct. Cometfall can knock down like a million of those golems at the same time.

Abbot - First things first, implode the quells! With good conjuration DCs, your heals are doing double duty as nukes on the Black Abbot.

Demon Queen Lailat - Not much to cast here! You've got me. (cometfall does save for half, though ...)

Tower of Despair - All parts trash mobs can be handled by you. Part 1. Jailer can be cursed. Elementals/dogs should be destructed quickly so that your party can focus on DPS. I've seen so many clerics just stand there getting wailed on by an elemental, crying for a caster to come take care of it. Lame, unless that healer is meleeing. Part 3 - Unless you're torcing, those trash mobs can be quickly taken care of with destruction and slay living, on any dififculty. Suulomedes has evasion, so if your job is to take him somewhere, you'll have to use a different spell than blade barrier.


The role of a cleric or favored soul is almost never merely just to heal in this game. Those +58-87 mana simply do not provide this same kind of power to your party. The FVS I play most often dumped charisma (46 WIS, spell focus necromancy, shield mastery/greater spell focus necromancy) and has 2900-3000 SP depending on buffs.

Charisma-based is all tell and no show. You might get a nice comment when someone sees the mana bar when you join the party, but you're effectively relegating yourself to piker role running from chest to chest and throwing a few heals in between that could have been done by many other classes and many better builds.

Play active, not reactive. I wouldn't switch for 1000 mana, let alone 58-87.

[Isharah]

All I can say now is, you guys can't read. :(

[sweez]

Just a note, Lailat can't be cursed :p

She's not immune to curses per se, but any curse landed on her disappears instantly, like she drank a pot.

[Anthios888]

Just a note, Lailat can't be cursed :p

She's not immune to curses per se, but any curse landed on her disappears instantly, like she drank a pot.

That's right! Curse immunity, my bad. It works in the pre-raid, I think.

[Anthios888]

All I can say now is, you guys can't read. :(

I think people are saying that even if someone "dedicates themselves to raid healing," that job simply requires more to be done well than following people around and hitting the heal button.

[Isharah]

I think people are saying that even if someone "dedicates themselves to raid healing," that job simply requires more to be done well than following people around and hitting the heal button.

...That makes much sense.. *cough*

Not arguing whether a FvS should be a healbot or do other things. I stated dedication to healing as a premise -- if you're thinking of a FvS that does otherwise (which you obviously do) then you shouldn't be replying to my post. :p

[good_ole_corwin]

If you want a FvS dedicated to healing, build a cleric healbot. Aura and bursts will give you SO much more healing than the SP that FvS gets, CHA based or otherwise. Of course building a healbot cleric is just as much a waste as building a healbot FvS, but IMHO the only situation where FvS can do a better job as a healbot than a cleric would be when youre the dedicated tank healer (capstone) and you cant stand close enough to him to get him with aura (and if you know the raid and dont build a squishy, most of the time you can).

[Gorbadoc]

If you want a FvS dedicated to healing, build a cleric healbot. Aura and bursts will give you SO much more healing than the SP that FvS gets, CHA based or otherwise. Of course building a healbot cleric is just as much a waste as building a healbot FvS, but IMHO the only situation where FvS can do a better job as a healbot than a cleric would be when youre the dedicated tank healer (capstone) and you cant stand close enough to him to get him with aura (and if you know the raid and dont build a squishy, most of the time you can).

I really need to see that Sovereign Host capstone in action. It sounds good, but I'm fuzzy on just how much better it is than a mix of Heal Scrolls, Mass Cure Crit Wands, and the occasional Heal spell.

[Sarisa]

I really need to see that Sovereign Host capstone in action. It sounds good, but I'm fuzzy on just how much better it is than a mix of Heal Scrolls, Mass Cure Crit Wands, and the occasional Heal spell.

For tank healing situations (VoD, ToD, eDA Turigulon, LoB), rotating Heal scrolls with the capstone, and a cast Heal if a big damage hit like a Disintegrate or a failed save on DBF is enough to almost infinitely keep a tank up.

The capstone gets Metamagic'ed for free, and can hit for over 100 to a well built tank with good healing amp.

[MRMechMan]

It depends entirely on how effectively those investments actually contribute toward you doing the job better.

The difference between investing in Cha and Wis on a healbot soul is the difference between investing $1 million in the following ventures:

-one that's got a 2% chance to return $25 million, or otherwise fails horribly with a $0 return (i.e. investing in wis, something that is rarely valuable)
-one that's got a 100% chance to return $500k (i.e. investing in cha, something that has a guaranteed return... that sucks)

As you can see, both investments suck, they just have different causes for doing so.

With a 45 implosion DC a divine can get a 100% return on soloing most quests.

With lvls to cha and an extra 200sp a divine can get a 100% return on mediocrity.

Investing in wis is by far and away the most useful thing a divine can do. Str is a somewhat distant 2nd. Constitution builds certainly have their place but for most it isn't worth it.

Charisma should not even be talked about. This thread should not exist :D.

[good_ole_corwin]

I really need to see that Sovereign Host capstone in action. It sounds good, but I'm fuzzy on just how much better it is than a mix of Heal Scrolls, Mass Cure Crit Wands, and the occasional Heal spell.

If the tank is well built and you invest into scroll mastery, the capstone makes the occasional heal spell unnecessary in almost all situations. Scroll, wand, capstone makes for an almost continuous stream of healing. When tank healing hard Horoth w/ Suulu, eChrono or leet VoD 95% of my SP went into DPs instead of heals.

Of course then once out of desperation we took a WF tank for normal ToD and man was that painful in comparison, lol.

[Bacab]

Just a note, Lailat can't be cursed :p

She's not immune to curses per se, but any curse landed on her disappears instantly, like she drank a pot.

Duh...she has 6 arms. Of course she is fast with her potions. When she is talking about Hedgewizards and Half-wits...she is a bartender. Why do you think she has that nice Halter-top?

Gosh you guys just don't pay attention!

[Bacab]

To the OP...

My first character to level 20 was "Bacab" on Ghallanda. Feel free to MyDDO him. First life I was a healbot that was CHR based. I really did not enjoy playing it.

His second life, he was a WIS based toon that soloed Hard VoD and pretty much every raid available (circa 2011ish time period) except ToD. I soloed lotsa epics and "high level" quest for items and farming purposes.

As people have pointed out...its not EVEN close which one is better.

[WruntJunior]

If the tank is well built and you invest into scroll mastery, the capstone makes the occasional heal spell unnecessary in almost all situations. Scroll, wand, capstone makes for an almost continuous stream of healing. When tank healing hard Horoth w/ Suulu, eChrono or leet VoD 95% of my SP went into DPs instead of heals.

Of course then once out of desperation we took a WF tank for normal ToD and man was that painful in comparison, lol.

To second what everyone is saying about the capstone...if you have a bad tank, it's not that useful...if you have a GOOD tank, though, it's amazing.

To the original point of this thread...wisdom all the way. A few hundred extra sp does you no good if your spells won't land...and FvS are not heal bots.

[SirValentine]

Im lookin for advice on FvS`s , i always get confused on Evoker builds - do i go with more Wisdom or Charisma? I know con is always a runner up 2nd place but i can never figure it out.

As others have said, it's Wisdom for a caster, Strength for a melee.

Is there really any reason for anyone ever to go with a Cha-build FvS?

Even if you want to go full-******-useless-hjeal-bot, you're probably better going with a Con build than a Cha build. 20 more HP out of 500 is much more bang-for-buck than 29 more SP out of 3000.

[SirValentine]

Demon Queen Lailat - Not much to cast here! You've got me. (cometfall does save for half, though ...)


Well, I always make a point of stopping to Implode the 4 fire elementals in the first hallway that everyone else runs past. Often worth an Epic fragment, and I even got someone a scroll from one of them once.

[-Zephyr-]

Well, I always make a point of stopping to Implode the 4 fire elementals in the first hallway that everyone else runs past. Often worth an Epic fragment, and I even got someone a scroll from one of them once.

I always thought eDQ2 didn't drop scrolls, at all.
Are you sure of that ?

[SirValentine]

I always thought eDQ2 didn't drop scrolls, at all.
Are you sure of that ?

No, I could be misremembering. But I thought so. Why wouldn't it drop scrolls at all? With so few mobs and the desert's absurd drop rates, it's not suprising they're not seen often, but never? Maybe, I don't know.

[Ilindith]

:p
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/637088thechoiceisyours.jpg

[-Zephyr-]

No, I could be misremembering. But I thought so. Why wouldn't it drop scrolls at all? With so few mobs and the desert's absurd drop rates, it's not suprising they're not seen often, but never? Maybe, I don't know.

I don't know why it's like that, but it does seem not to drop scrolls. Maybe because it has very fast respawning monsters, maybe because it was the very first epic raid (not quest), and considering at that time scrolls dropped to the floor as treasure bags it could have been too much drama in a 12-man party...

But until I get confirmation it does drop scrolls, I will continue saying it does not. Especially since everyone I've spoken with told me it didn't...

[Matuse]

DQ2 has never dropped scrolls.

2 main contributors:

1) Respawners
2) If you finish, all the existing monsters die, which under the old system could mean a gnoll dropping a scroll bag on top of a pillar where it would be unreachable.

[TheDjinnFor]

Apparently you forgot the other half of my reply.

No, not at all.

You said it was a lower priority. I say it doesn't even make it on your priority list at all, because no matter how significant of an investment you make your returns are minute.


Let's see ...

Epic Plane of Night - Did you know that mephits have horrible will saves? No bard needed here on 2nd base with a Greater Command or Symbol of Stunning. Or, right as the party is killing that pillar and maybe some mephits wake up, your implosion will keep the ones off the melees.

Epic Vault of Night (von5) - Did you know that undead can be imploded? Warforged destructed, greater commanded, stunned? That cometfall can knock down groups of monsters as well as dealing 600-1400 damage?

Lord of Blades, every difficulty - Don't let those artificers and sneak attack assassins get you down; get them down. If you have run elite or epic, you will be especially disappointed to be a healbot while easy-to-dispach trash mobs have their way with you and the party. But an effective destruction, slay living, implosion, greater command, symbol of stunning -- all placed in the right spot -- can take these warforged to the wrecking pile where they belong. Also important in this raid is debuffing. Reducing the Lord's saves will amp up your party's DPS if you are running with improved sunder or touch of death characters whose abilities rely on succeeding saves. Reducing the Lord's to-hit is important on any difficulty where your tank is using armor class in any way. A spell Bestow Curse will stack with other types of curses. Even the lowly level 1 spell Bane is like giving your tank 1 additional armor class. Even running to the quest ... did you know that construct balls can be imploded, but not destructed/fingered?

Shroud - Symbol of stunning those part 2 maze or part 4 respawn devils. Destruct/implode everything else. Why stand around relying on others w.aiting for the quest to advance? On difficulties above normal, Harry has evasion. Without decent WIS, cometfall is out of the picture as a nuke spell.

Hound of Xoriat - Destructable trash mobs.

Vision of Destruction - Symbol of stunning extremely effective against teleporting devils. These guys are offensive and need to be dealt with quickly, because the longer they're on the party, the more damage the party will take. Destruction implosion etc. Symbol of Death the bats if you want for an easy conclusion (though I cannot fit this spell in my setup).

Master Artificer - Artificers, assassins, oh my! Destruct destruct destruct. Cometfall can knock down like a million of those golems at the same time.

Abbot - First things first, implode the quells! With good conjuration DCs, your heals are doing double duty as nukes on the Black Abbot.

Demon Queen Lailat - Not much to cast here! You've got me. (cometfall does save for half, though ...)

Tower of Despair - All parts trash mobs can be handled by you. Part 1. Jailer can be cursed. Elementals/dogs should be destructed quickly so that your party can focus on DPS. I've seen so many clerics just stand there getting wailed on by an elemental, crying for a caster to come take care of it. Lame, unless that healer is meleeing. Part 3 - Unless you're torcing, those trash mobs can be quickly taken care of with destruction and slay living, on any dififculty. Suulomedes has evasion, so if your job is to take him somewhere, you'll have to use a different spell than blade barrier.

None of this is relevant to the comment that I made or the discussion that I was having.

An evokers real strength is the fact that investments in Wisdom can kill trash mobs and dumping charisma costs you little, and in non-raid situations that's all you really care about. In raid situations, on the other hand, it's a completely different story: the goal is to take out the boss before the healers run out of resources or someone makes a mistake, in which case a melee soul is much more valuable than a trash-clearing evoker.

If I could afford to be picky, I'd take a melee soul over an evoker in any raid in the game, because 99% of the time the real threat, and the only thing thats going to cost us resources, is the raid boss.

[LeLoric]

DQ2 has never dropped scrolls.

2 main contributors:

1) Respawners
2) If you finish, all the existing monsters die, which under the old system could mean a gnoll dropping a scroll bag on top of a pillar where it would be unreachable.

The only exception is the fire eles at end of first hall they can and do drop scrolls but noone kills them usually.

Many people also dont think that you can get scrolls in evon 6 either but if you actually kill the respawners on the bases they can drop scrolls. Wail/implosion the mephits on base two or fire eles on one instead of fascinate and soon enough youll see this.

[MRMechMan]

snip

Saw a fvs with 3385 sp once. People were talking about it all raid.

Died within 5 seconds of harry dropping down in hard shroud.

Used my fvs' 9-starting-cha 2800sp and then we moved on to part5.

I'd rather take a fvs with levels to str-they can add melee dps.

I'd rather take a fvs with levels to wis-they can control/kill trash if needed, and honestly they tend to be more surviveable than healbots because they solo more and are just better players in general than cha builds.

I'd rather take a fvs with levels to con because they tend to be tankish types that have torc/concop/good reflex/heal amp and are nigh impossible to kill.

The funniest part is that someone that put levels to charisma tends to have a less effective fvs, even at the single, incredibly one-dimensional task that they set out to do at character creation.

People can build their characters how they want, but saying "both investments suck" with regards to charisma and wisdom is incredibly misleading.

I get curious about any fvs that has much over ~3.1k sp...either they are uber and have a ton of sorc/fvs PLs, large guild augment maybe or...they are using bleh pirate trinket, took mental toughness, levels to cha etc.

A couple of completionist fvs I know have/had under ~2500sp at cap...take that for what it's worth. Can still solo heal anything, there are so many sp regen items in the game that total sp just doesn't matter once you are geared.

[pHo3nix]

I get curious about any fvs that has much over ~3.1k sp...either they are uber and have a ton of sorc/fvs PLs, large guild augment maybe or...they are using bleh pirate trinket, took mental toughness, levels to cha etc.


This.

That many sp often means mental toughness/improved metal toughness and high cha, basically a piker for almost everything you can run.

[Chette]

No, not at all.

You said it was a lower priority. I say it doesn't even make it on your priority list at all, because no matter how significant of an investment you make your returns are minute.



None of this is relevant to the comment that I made or the discussion that I was having.

An evokers real strength is the fact that investments in Wisdom can kill trash mobs and dumping charisma costs you little, and in non-raid situations that's all you really care about. In raid situations, on the other hand, it's a completely different story: the goal is to take out the boss before the healers run out of resources or someone makes a mistake, in which case a melee soul is much more valuable than a trash-clearing evoker.

If I could afford to be picky, I'd take a melee soul over an evoker in any raid in the game, because 99% of the time the real threat, and the only thing thats going to cost us resources, is the raid boss.

How many times do you wipe epic lord of blades because the Lord is doing too much damage?

How many times do you wipe epic lord of blades due to trash at the end?

I can tell you that in my experience, the latter is far FAR more common (although neither particularly common these days, heh). I expend about 75% of my spell point bar in the last 2 phases of the raid. The trash is a far bigger threat than this boss.

In every epic lord of blades I've ever run on my wisdom based FvS I have lead the kill count.

I would only take my melee in there if my caster was on timer.

[Matuse]

any people also dont think that you can get scrolls in evon 6 either but if you actually kill the respawners on the bases they can drop scrolls. Wail/implosion the mephits on base two or fire eles on one instead of fascinate and soon enough youll see this.

This is the first time I've ever seen someone mention that scrolls don't drop in VoN6. It's rare, sure, because there aren't many kills generated, but I've seen them happen.

But never in DQ2.


they are using bleh pirate trinket, took mental toughness, levels to cha etc.

"Bleh" pirate trinket is a 100 SP swap-in item (maybe only 71 if your regular trinket is the Litany and it evens your Cha) . I'd look askance at anyone who DOESN'T wear one. There is no better option for your trinket slot before shrining and between quests once you get to a level that you can have archmagi elsewhere (obviously at level 5, a VPIS is better). For something that costs you nothing, why wouldn't you wear one?

[MRMechMan]

"Bleh" pirate trinket is a 100 SP swap-in item (maybe only 71 if your regular trinket is the Litany and it evens your Cha) . I'd look askance at anyone who DOESN'T wear one. There is no better option for your trinket slot before shrining and between quests once you get to a level that you can have archmagi elsewhere (obviously at level 5, a VPIS is better). For something that costs you nothing, why wouldn't you wear one?

Fair point. But honestly I have seen people keeping it on all the time at cap-which isn't the end of the world, but there are certainly any number of better trinkets that most fvs should be using.

As a hotswap at shrine, it's awesome.

As something you use while harry blows your face away because you pumped cha and forgot con...not a huge fan.

[Nephilia]

Cha = few mana points more.
Wis = higher DC ---> less spell point spent to kill with kiting on BB ---> more mana to heal!

Start with 10 on cha or, if u have point to dump, 12-13. Be sure to have enough charisma to cast every spell and that's all :)
And remember that FVS's capstone give u +2 cha and every SP item on u will give u double its bonus!
If u feel the need to have more mana is better to learn how to save sp instead!
A nice mana conservation on a FVS with 2500 mana got better results then spamming useless over healing spell on a FVS with 3200.
My kaetta on her first life as an evoker FVS, for example, usually ran epic Chrono being a dedicater healer/killer with DP, energy drain, symbol of death, destruction, implosion!
And I usually finish the rain with a decent group with 1 shrine still to be used! :)

[-Zephyr-]

In every epic lord of blades I've ever run on my wisdom based FvS I have lead the kill count

As a FvS ?
You should start worrying about the arcanes then.
Leading the killcount on Hard, yes, I've done it.
But on epic ? Arcanes have nothing else to do than killing trash in that raid... They better do it.
Of course, most of my eLoB had either a good necro spec wizard, or that 3 pl-of-each-caster-class-and-completionist sorc who owns the trash (and scroll heals the tank after !), so my point of view may not be the same.

[Anthios888]

As a FvS ?
You should start worrying about the arcanes then.
Leading the killcount on Hard, yes, I've done it.
But on epic ? Arcanes have nothing else to do than killing trash in that raid... They better do it.
Of course, most of my eLoB had either a good necro spec wizard, or that 3 pl-of-each-caster-class-and-completionist sorc who owns the trash (and scroll heals the tank after !), so my point of view may not be the same.

Yeah, the logical conclusion there is that Chette/Raizertron's group must definitely suck if she's getting kills. It couldn't be that a necro-specced favored soul is the bomb ;)

[-Zephyr-]

Yeah, the logical conclusion there is that Chette/Raizertron's group must definitely suck if she's getting kills. It couldn't be that a necro-specced favored soul is the bomb ;)

Just because of the cooldowns, an arcane should get more "killz".
But again, I don't really care how you complete your eLoBs, I'm just saying that even if I killed 1 mob each time one or my necro spell was off cooldown, or 7 with implosion, I still wouldn't lead the killcount in eLoB, because an arcane is doing the same with better spells (namely circle of death/wail with half implosion's cooldown at worst).

[Anthios888]

Just because of the cooldowns, an arcane should get more "killz".
But again, I don't really care how you complete your eLoBs, I'm just saying that even if I killed 1 mob each time one or my necro spell was off cooldown, or 7 with implosion, I still wouldn't lead the killcount in eLoB, because an arcane is doing the same with better spells (namely circle of death/wail with half implosion's cooldown at worst).

I guess all I'm saying is that it doesn't stand out to me as crazy in a raid where monsters aren't conveniently grouped up for wail of the banshee, so slay living and destruction work really well. This is also a place where the Favored Soul -2 saves aura can give a really nice benefit for a casting favored soul, because so much of the raid is mobile and done at close quarters. It's very comparable to a DC 44 necro wizard in that sense. These forums have huge emphasis on "evocation" favored souls, but in my world, I cast the better-targetted destruction and slay living a lot more times every minute while implosion is a one-trick chance (whose DC can be boosted higher through past lives, anyway).

A caster who is really going all out with finger of death/power word kill/wail of the banshee/circle of death/trap the soul could certainly net more kills per minute than a favored soul. Still, I think Chette's basic point that a casting FVS is like adding a second wizard to your party in terms of trash mob management can still hold true for this particular raid. It's not outrageous or even a bad reflection on the casters if she won kill count. And when it comes to getting those artificers and assassins dead instantly, the more the merrier, eh? WIS fvs helps a lot when it really counts.

[Dagolar]

Im lookin for advice on FvS`s , i always get confused on Evoker builds - do i go with more Wisdom or Charisma? I know con is always a runner up 2nd place but i can never figure it out.

Key points to making a caster FvS:

*Wisdom needs to be maxed if you're doing anything involving DCs. Charisma gives very few spell points (I believe roughly 10 per +1 in the stat).

*Charisma ought be maxed for healer builds, as more sp is always handy there, even a small amount.

For combat FvS, you generally don't need either stat.

Evokers tend to worry more about spamming than DCs, so while 18 wis, 16 con, 16 cha for base stats would be quite suitable for a 36pt build, or similar workable for 32 and 34pt, you'll want to consider going 16wis, 16 con, 14 cha, for a 28 pt build.

Just make sure you keep in mind that you need (10+spell level) charisma to cast your spells, though that's easily attainable through items and tomes and enhancements alone.

[Carpone]

:p
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/637088thechoiceisyours.jpg
If you have high DCs and need mana, then you have the option to drink a mana potion.
If you have low DCs and need to instakill mobs, then you have to reincarnate.

[MRMechMan]

Evokers tend to worry more about spamming than DCs, so while 18 wis, 16 con, 16 cha for base stats would be quite suitable for a 36pt build, or similar workable for 32 and 34pt, you'll want to consider going 16wis, 16 con, 14 cha, for a 28 pt build.



eh?

[Chette]

Yeah, the logical conclusion there is that Chette/Raizertron's group must definitely suck if she's getting kills. It couldn't be that a necro-specced favored soul is the bomb ;)

Or it couldn't possibly be that, you know, a high HP warforged sorc is infinitely better at kiting dogs and trash in eLoB than a 44 necro DC palemaster.

(But ya, you guys are all gimps, zomg)