The Epic Ranger Hate Continues...

[TheLegendOfAra]

WARNING: Slight wall of text here. :)

So last night I go to join a Echrono PUG(LFM said DPS) in Argo on my pure (Elf)Ranger AA, and I get the following conversation:

Raid Leader: AA or Melee DPS?
Me: AA, and Melee DPS.
Raid Leader: AA or Tempest?
Me: I'm an Arcane Archer. But I also have melee DPS.
Raid Leader: Sorry not taking Gimps!

After which he would no longer respond to my tells. And I really needed to run said Echrono; So I switch toons and grabbed my Monk(Pure (elf)Dark monk, dex/wis build) And hit the LFM. With no tells, or anything the Raid Leader accepts me right away and we start the raid. We finish with little to no difficulty and every one has a good time, right? Wrong. I was extremely annoyed with the Raid Leader for not accepting my AA who has better gear, more survivability, brought more to the party buff-wise, could self heal so as to save the Healers SP/pots. As well as having more DPS than my monk in this case since my monk currently is lacking any DR breakers.

Now, I would have understood if the party leader had MyDDO'd me and decided my build wasn't up to snuff for the raid, but that was obviously not the case. This was purely a case of "Ranger AA's are gimp" attitude. Now while I'll admit that a Pure elf Ranger AA isn't exactly top-notch DPS and can be out DPS'd bye it's correctly built/played 10K stars counterpart, I can not understand why they get so much hate.

A little info on my builds for perspective:
Araphina Skycrow:
Ranger AA, Elf.
Chaotic Good

Str: 29
Dex: 38
Con: 24
Int: --
Wis: 20
Cha: --

HP: 437
SP: 790

Being a Premium play my gear set-up may not be optimal, but it does the job and does it well. (still farming out some gear Hence the Echrono run. Come one gauntlets scroll!)

Helm: Alchemist Crown
Goggles: Tharnes/Epic Goggles of Time-Sensing
Trinket: Sustaining Symbiont/The Blood Stone
Cloak: Epic Phiarlan Mirror Cloak/ +45HP GS/SP conc-op(still farming LDS to finish)/ Epic Mabar cloak
Necklace: Alchemist Pendant
Belt: MinII GS
Wrist: Fabricators Bracers/WindHowlers
Gloves: Fabricators Gauntlets
Rings: Tumbleweed and Omnisience
Boots: Propulsion Boots/Madstone
Outfit: Still farming my DT so using my Icy for now.

As far as weapons I have all the obvious things; Both challenge bows, LitII bow, Epic Silver Flame bow, Random loot gen bows with icy/force ritual kits, LitII Khopesh's, various other melee stuff for fun.
----------

Arathaes Skycrow
Dark Monk, Elf.
Lawful Good.

Str: 31(Max I can reach atm)
Dex: 40
Con: 18(Max I can reach is 28)
Int: --
Wis: Depending on my stance either 30 or 34
Cha: 8 or 14 if I want to use Shining star ;p

HP: 427 in Wind Stance, 447 in Ocean, an 467 in Mountain
Ki: Somewhere around 300

Helm: +45 HP GS
Goggles: Tharnes/ Epic Goggles of Time-Sensing
Trinket: The Blood Stone
Cloak: Epic Mabar cloak
Necklace: Wis+6
Belt: HF of GFL
Wrist: Fabricators Bracers
Gloves: Fabricators Gauntlets
Rings: con+6 and Omnisience
Boots: Madtsone
Outfit: Icy/Garments

Typical Monk stuff for weapons, Thaarak wraps, stunners, smiters, Destruction/imp destruction, alch wraps, Mabar wraps, Silver Kama's/Alch Kama's for zombie DR, Random loot gen stuff with icy/force ritual kits
-------

As you can see, I've spent much more time gearing/playing my Ranger, and while my Monk isn't gimped she doesn't stand up to my rangers DPS in Echrono due to no DR breakers and a low str.

My grief here is, why all ranger hate? (This is NOT by any means the first time this has happened on my ranger, and most likely will not be the last. )

[voodoogroves]

People are dumb.

Rangers are in a better spot than rogues. I've been playing my Rogue a ton lately, and she's getting good traction with some but still getting silly declines. Not the best geared rogue on the server, but she's pretty well decked out with raid / epic / whatever loots you might imagine. My only current contemplation is if I take my current abishai bits and give her the full 5, or break them up across multiple toons.

I also have a FVS who, for a variety of reasons, is still largely wearing is TR and raid gear. ML 11, 12, 13, 14 stuff.



You know which one gets autodecliend, and which one doesn't right?

I also have another non-full-caster I've been running through raids/epic PUGs lately - a Monk 7 / Ranger 11 / Fighter 2. I've got him geared in solid, but entirely BTA gear. T1 Epic Ring of the Stalker (Rogue has T3 with both slots used). T1 Epic Frozen Tunic. T1 Cove Brawling Gauntlets. etc.

Between the ranger and the rogue, you know which one gets autodecliend, and which one doesn't right?




People can be foolish, ignorant and judgmental.

[Miow]

Really sucks but having to deal with ignorant raid leaders is a fact a of ddo...nothing you can do if he won't listen to reason....

[Dematto]

I haven't played a ranger. I barely ever think about them unless they're in my party. I just wonder if he would have given you the boot if you'd said one answer instead of two.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I haven't played a ranger. I barely ever think about them unless they're in my party. I just wonder if he would have given you the boot if you'd said one answer instead of two.

The best Rgrs are melee AND ranged.

and IMO, AA way out does Tempest. (at least Slayer Arrows do.)




I would also argue that the very fact that any asks a Rgr "melee or ranged" "AA or Tempest"...etc.... says something about the person asking the question...

(it usually says to me that I would be happier if I just drop group as fast as possible)

[PNellesen]

I've got 2 Ranger/Fighters, and they get rejected all the time, and usually the leader doesn't have the grace to even decline the request, just lets it sit there. Both have >500hp, both have various Epic weapons/gear, both are STR based. I've grown to expect to be declined, and not take it personally. I'm likely better off not being in a group that "misinformed" ;)

"Too many Rangers" has become a running joke in our guild runs now. Even if it's just me ;)

[Kmnh]

Your character would be a lot better if you had your dex and str scores swapped. STR helps both your melee and ranged damage. The utility of DEX caps once you are hitting mobs on a 2.

Aside from that, keep farming gear. ToD sets are a major help for rangers. The ravager set alone is 2d6 damage per swing.

[goodspeed]

If a ranger of any kind, especially a helf wasn't pulling out a bow every 120 seconds or whatever it is, they'd be gone. Even without any ips you can right well hammer into anything for thousands and thousands of points of dmg in those 20 seconds.

The raid leader was a dumbass. It's like standing there and explaining how an arti isn't dps. Ya they basically have a roll 20 slayer arrow every 6 seconds blasting force. Topped with at least 180 dmg to every 2 or 3 melee swings. With a boosted 20% fausade.

Ah well, wait a few months and you'll be a tempest and an arcane archer lol.

[96th_Malice]

Your character would be a lot better if you had your dex and str scores swapped. STR helps both your melee and ranged damage. The utility of DEX caps once you are hitting mobs on a 2.

Aside from that, keep farming gear. ToD sets are a major help for rangers. The ravager set alone is 2d6 damage per swing.

I was going to comment on this as well .... As a player here since day one I have slowly worked up my collection of Elven Arcane Archers and Archers to a quantity of 23.

I have learned that 32 is high enough dex to hit just about everything. The only toon I have a have a higher than 32 DEX with is my bowbarian and the ONLY reson I am keeping her Dex @ 36 is cause I cant respec her as I'd lose ddo nerfed crit range feats.

If I may make a suggestion .... If you have the ability to re-incarnate your toon ( meaning just re-do your 20 lvls ) DONT re-level through the XP grind !!

Anyways ... with whatever tomes and items you have .. redo your dex so it sits @ 32. Put all of the points you have available into STR. It doesn't seem like much BUT going from 26ish str to 36-42 is a HUGE difference especially over 20 seconds of manyshot.

If you were on Khyber I'd throw ya some turbine points to purchase the heart of wood to try it out.

Good luck with your toons ..AND with "jerk-ish" raid leaders.

There is ALWAYS room for AA's in RAIDS ... the party leader just didn't want to loose his kill count to an archer ( maybe let him/her know that next time ) :p

Later

[Clayness]

How can you not have DR breakers for chrono on a monk? Just use the search function in the Auction House, search for holy and/or good and/or righteousness, pick the cheapest one, and voila, for probably around 1.000 plat you've got yourself a DR breaker for chrono.

And about rangers, I'm in the same boat as everyone else, I usually give them a shot at least. I do have some AA rangers on my "friendslist", but they've been given a chance and were found wanting. Either they were of the horrible low HP variety (see that alot with AA rangers unfortunately) who couldn't make up for their lack of HP with skill (which is possible, I've seen 300 HP AA's survive an elite shroud just fine), or they were of the "kite everything" variety, that keep dragging mobs across with map with the melee pack frantically trying to keep up.

Worst I've met was the AA ranger who we did dreaming dark with. 5 man party had been doing norm runs, getting it down to 9-10 minutes. AA ranger joins, we get to boss, he immediately activates manyshot, agroes the boss and starts running him in circles. Our three melee chase the boss but are incapable of landing any swings, two of them give up and just idle around, waiting for the ranger to finish. We kill the boss, but our 9-10 minute runs just went to a 18 minute run.

I'm always suspicious about AA rangers, and for good reason, but most of the time I'll give them a chance at least. After a bit of MyDDO'ing if I'm in doubt (plenty of 8 Str AA's out there who don't seem to read the description of Bow Strength).

[96th_Malice]

After a bit of MyDDO'ing if I'm in doubt (plenty of 8 Str AA's out there who don't seem to read the description of Bow Strength).

Hahaha .... I have to agree with that

[TheLegendOfAra]

The main reason my ranger is dex based isb because it was my very first toon in ddo. And atm its only a 28pnt build.. when i tr her afer cc i will be more str based as a 12/6/2 build. I was thinking ranger/barb/rouge.

Also thank you for your responses. Im glad to see that there are some ranger/AA fans out there besides myself.

And sorry for the short reply, but i,m on y tablet in the back of a cad atm, and for some reason everything is in german!

[Lithic]

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/240106/331272974v3_460x460_Front_Color-Black_padToSquare-true.jpg

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/ISLANDERS-HATE-RANGERS-PERFECT-HOCKEY-SHIRT-NEW-YORK-/18/!CE2myPgBWk~$(KGrHqJ,!jYE1JUCsPlRBNTP7eYQM!~~0_35. JPG

The above were on the first page when you googgle "ranger hate" heh

[wax_on_wax_off]

I try not to be judgemental but I tend to cringe at the prospect of taking multiple unknown rangers into a raid.

Just too many bad builds out there that are too easy to cap by staying at the back and pewpewing all the way to level 20 without anyone noticing.

If I have the time I'll occasionally myDDO an applicant and I'm never surprised to see <350 HP, <100% Fortification and <30 strength. Maybe this is ok in a normal shroud but anything else?

[Arlathen]

One day, every DDO player will understand that Rangers are a Specialist class that can do viable Melee & Ranged DPS.

And on that day - The DDO Design team announce DDO2, where Rangers will only TWF or Range *face-palm*

In all seriousness, I have a Ranger, and I love him to bits for his versatile Melee or Ranged approach.

So, Ranger Love +1 here.

[78mackson]

These days, in theory, Tempest are the geemps, and the AA's the solid choice. As long as the ranger knows how to stand still while grouped.

[Sarisa]

Ranger just happens to be one of the classes that are attractive to players who come from more "fixed role" MMO's. Because of that, you get far too many who think that pumping DEX, dumping CON, not self-healing, and never switching out of a Bow is what a Ranger is about.

Paladin (permanent shield, never using their smites, no buffing, little self healing), Rogue (dump CON, pump INT/DEX, dump STR, the "I never get aggro" excuse, and overly specializing in traps), and to a lesser extent "Battle" Clerics (don't yet know when to fight and when to heal, don't cast CC spells, little buffing, not healing anyone but themselves) also have bad reputations.

It's sad when you have to worry about every unknown Ranger, Rogue, Pali, or Fighter splashed Cleric joining your group, but there just happens to be far more of the "bad" ones than the good ones.

[78mackson]

Ranger just happens to be one of the classes that are attractive to players who come from more "fixed role" MMO's. Because of that, you get far too many who think that pumping DEX, dumping CON, not self-healing, and never switching out of a Bow is what a Ranger is about.

Paladin (permanent shield, never using their smites, no buffing, little self healing), Rogue (dump CON, pump INT/DEX, dump STR, the "I never get aggro" excuse, and overly specializing in traps), and to a lesser extent "Battle" Clerics (don't yet know when to fight and when to heal, don't cast CC spells, little buffing, not healing anyone but themselves) also have bad reputations.

It's sad when you have to worry about every unknown Ranger, Rogue, Pali, or Fighter splashed Cleric joining your group, but there just happens to be far more of the "bad" ones than the good ones.

You forgot the cleric who is a healer and nothing else. you can tell who they are while shrouding or ToDing, full or almost full mana bar constantly...!

[Adrian-Korvedzk]

That guy? Yeah, total idiot. I was glad to meet you in game, and even though you did out kill me, it was fun(I think it was Tear of Dhaakan?). Anywho, if I were leading a raid, and saw you pop up, I wouldn't ask, nor would I do this "MyDDO" thing people keep ranting about. I'd accept you and boot a barb.

Have fun,
Miyatsu

[96th_Malice]

The main reason my ranger is dex based isb because it was my very first toon in ddo. And atm its only a 28pnt build.. when i tr her afer cc i will be more str based as a 12/6/2 build. I was thinking ranger/barb/rouge.

Shoot me an in game message .... If you are interested in ranging I can help you a ton . BUT yes if you can get yourself 32 point builds first that would be handy( I wouldnt know how to build a 28 anymorte hehe )

You can check a few of my toons in myddo ( khyber ) All are AA's

Katnyss
Alexsys
Alexzia
Danicca
Nattalie
Kaeylee ( old school Bowbarian )
Orianthii
Ashleagh ( gonna be rogue BUT broken ATM .. hehe )

Talk to ya soon

[Doxmaster]

I used to not understand this. Now I do.

Pure Dex, 5 minute kiting fest, 10 con rangers screwed the rest of us over. I've seen at least one per server, just the same as 8 con, pure dex rogues.

One or two sucked and he will remember the one or two that sucked for the rest of his game career. Humans, by nature remember bad things more easily that good things, so he remembered that bad ranger next time he saw a new ranger and every time after that. When we assume something, we can easily forget when we're wrong, or pass it off as being a minor deviance. (This is a fact. Proof? Politicians, News stations, Spouses, Parents.)

It goes something like this:
-Ranger 1 was bad.-
"Ok. Rangers kinda suck"

-Ranger 2 was ok.-
*Didn't do anything terrible, so he is remembered as 'ok' for a while, then forgotten.

Ranger 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10...26 were ok.
*Did not even realize there was a ranger in the party*

-Ranger 27 was bad.-
"OMG, I KNEW Rangers sucked." *Abruptly remembers Ranger 1.*

-Ranger 5078 was bad-
"Never grouping with these gimps again."
--------------------
It certainly doesnt help that being bad due to low hp and damage may result in xp loss for TRs.

Every single person here can link MyDDO to their own ranger, a 19th lifer with more con than most people have HP and more DPS than there are characters in DDO.

We are 5% of the game population. Of that game population, we fall into the 'best' 10%, with the best gear, strongest characters, best builds, most efficient XP plans and best character setups to be powerful and, on occasion, fun. There is even a dude here that still has an outdated Barbarian Rage enhancement from ages ago.

It's nice that we have these cool things, but that doesn't change the other 90% of the game population, especially when both sides of a problem occur in that 90% and we are victims to wandering in at bad times.

[zeonardo]

/ranger hate on

When you unlock the last door in VoN5 and one person zergs ahead to speak to the dwarf and locks 10/12 people outside... it was a ranger.

When you're about to finish disabling that trap box while evading multiple blades and spikes and fire, and you get interrupted by a hit when 98% done... it was a (skele) ranger.

When you just finished that perfect XP BB Elite run, with rans + conq + ingen + all the bonuses and after killing the boss all you have to do is to talk to a NPC or interact with an object, and someone deliberately runs to the spike pit and *dings*... it was a ranger

When you put up an OOB farm pug and 5 ppl are standing at the entrance and the 6th is on the Spawn of Vulkoor's entrance and asking for a share... it was a ranger

When the tank goes ahead to intim a large crowd of mobs and those mobs spread out and run past him just before he gets close enough... it was a ranger (maybe a sorc, but you got my point =D)

When you say "DO NOT KILL SPIDERS" and 10 seconds later you've failed Sleeping Dust... it was an Improved Precise Shooter ranger

When you have a deadly/corrosive scroll of Greater Heroism... it was an Artificer

When... well...

/ranger hate off

All rangers are gimp kiters
All battleclerics are selfish, dumb, worthless bastards
All divines are hjealers
All rogues are gimp trapsters and can't dps
All paladins' dps sux (well... what can I say)
All artificers should be skilled trappers (and ddly pls)
All wf have poor heal amp.
All frodolings are cute. true.
All your base are belong to us
All haters gonna hate

And so on...

Just let it go...
Let them gimp and limit themselves inside this little world of theirs.

[Zyerz]

These days, in theory, Tempest are the geemps, and the AA's the solid choice. As long as the ranger knows how to stand still while grouped.

I believe its the otherway around. But I do believe Rangers need more Love.

[voodoogroves]

There is even a dude here that still has an outdated Barbarian Rage enhancement from ages ago.
More than one. I think one is a freaking bow-barian too.


It's nice that we have these cool things, but that doesn't change the other 90% of the game population, especially when both sides of a problem occur in that 90% and we are victims to wandering in at bad times.

Some truth in this. Also truth in the fact that it isn't the folks here who are likely declining somewhat arbitrarily most often.

[slarden]

The AA ranger hate is based on two simple things

1) bow attack speed is roughly 2/3 of melee weapons when the ranger is not many-shotting and the capstone 25% attack speed bonus is really only around 15% so you are still only getting about 78% efficiency compared to a sword.
2) rangers that kite bosses are reducing group dps (do you really see this in epics... I don't)

Both are reasonble concerns, but dps is a mathematical formula, A well built arcane archer can and should have high dps.

I have a 5th life AA with 3 ranger past lifes and I am waiting to see what new epic enhancements we get when the beta opens. I am expecting a nice boost for AA.

If Rangers don't get a reasonable boost, I may TR into a helves angel, although the math shows me that a ranger 20 AA beats helves angel dps if the 25% speed increase capstone was actually 25%. This is due primarily to amped manyshot making up for the dps differentlial during the non-many shot period with both using swords. Many people forget that every boost during the manyshot period is effectively x4.

As for echrono which is the quest you wanted to join, that is not a place where AA rangers really shine since the only real possible failure point is the end battle with either bad dps (only seen in it once in maybe 30-35 runs when using my cleric), the wrong tank, or sub-optimal play. Still eChrono almost always succeeds. The leader probably just didn't want to take any chances on dps although I get your frustration. He is assuming your dps is bad not based on you, but his past experience with arcane archers. It's not that a well built AA is bad there, it's just that it takes a stonger build/gear than most other classes to be as effective as a monk/fighter, and the assumption is that fighters/barbs/monks will also have good gear/builds.

I think some of the statements about AA ranger here are blown out of proportion and don't stack up to mathematical evaluation. Too much emphasis is put on the non-manyshot period as if manyshot didn't matter at all.

Look at all the places where AA shines. In CC I have either been running torches or clearing/scouting. When clearing I was able to take out the undead from range before they ever got to me with manyshot. I went to maces when manyshot was on a timer. I never needed to ask for heals or help. The fighters/barbs are always complaining about the healing and could do little more than guard the center - and only if a healer was there.

When we completed our 200 shards above quota requirement and were waiting in the middle, it dawned on me how much damage/elimination I could do when the hobgoblins were charging the middle before the melees ever took a swing.

When running torches I would sometimes run into a group of spawned hobgoblins or a boss. Quick str buff, many shot and goodbye.
So AA rangers can out-dps/outperform fighters/barbs situationally, but not in eChrono.. Even with my 3 past life ranger feats and good gear I will leave eChrono to my other toons, although I think my ranger would perform just fine there. Artificers aren't always welcome in echrono either even though according to my math they contribute very strongly. The ability to buff others weapons is not as good as it used to be with the deadly weapon nerf, but adding 1-8 force damage to 7 melees isn't an insignificant contribution. There is always someone that needs good added to their weapon and the tank always wants energy infusion.

One place AA rangers do very well is epic challenges in house c. This is due to the need/benefit to split up in most challenges and the self-sufficiency strengths of a ranger. Again the ability to do significant damage/elimination before the melee battle even starts is a huge benefit. A ranger can perform most roles well.

So I'll accept some AA ranger hate from people to keep the flexibility/benefits I get. I'll just limit the epic activity to those quests where ranged-focused toons are especially helpful.

[svinja]

Most of the ranger hate is because there are so many terrible AA rangers out there. When I see a guy with a bow in his hand and he has a fighter or monk icon I am not worried at all. If he has a ranger icon I regret accepting them. I am not sure why the difference is so huge as I don't even have a ranger myself (except a low level one) and have never done any kind of math on it but monk and fighter archers are almost always good, and ranger archers are almost always bad. There are always exceptions, but there is a clear difference on average.

A large part of the reason might be that plenty of people come to DDO and instantly make an archer ranger because they're a legolas wannabe child, so ranger AAs are more likely to be people's first characters than a helves angel or monkcher is, these builds are usually played by more experienced players and built as non-flavor builds.

[centuar1963]

Wow... I forgot Rangers were still in the game!... See, you can learn something in the forums.

[Tyraelus]

Firstly, if you don't like the raid leader or his understanding of the game and classes, feel free to lead your own group. As a leader you have every right to pick you team. Sadly, most people think they have an uber build that
everyone MUST have in the party and tend to argue with the leader while he's trying to fill the party, which is very annoying.

As for rangers, in most cases I only take those that I know to be geared.

[zeonardo]

/ranger hate on

When you unlock the last door in VoN5 and one person zergs ahead to speak to the dwarf and locks 10/12 people outside... it was a ranger.

When you're about to finish disabling that trap box while evading multiple blades and spikes and fire, and you get interrupted by a hit when 98% done... it was a (skele) ranger.

When you just finished that perfect XP BB Elite run, with rans + conq + ingen + all the bonuses and after killing the boss all you have to do is to talk to a NPC or interact with an object, and someone deliberately runs to the spike pit and *dings*... it was a ranger

When you put up an OOB farm pug and 5 ppl are standing at the entrance and the 6th is on the Spawn of Vulkoor's entrance and asking for a share... it was a ranger

When the tank goes ahead to intim a large crowd of mobs and those mobs spread out and run past him just before he gets close enough... it was a ranger (maybe a sorc, but you got my point =D)

When you say "DO NOT KILL SPIDERS" and 10 seconds later you've failed Sleeping Dust... it was an Improved Precise Shooter ranger

When you have a deadly/corrosive scroll of Greater Heroism... it was an Artificer

When... well...

/ranger hate off

All rangers are gimp kiters
All battleclerics are selfish, dumb, worthless bastards
All divines are hjealers
All rogues are gimp trapsters and can't dps
All paladins' dps sux (well... what can I say)
All artificers should be skilled trappers (and ddly pls)
All wf have poor heal amp.
All frodolings are cute. true.
All your base are belong to us
All haters gonna hate

And so on...

Just let it go...
Let them gimp and limit themselves inside this little world of theirs.

Ummmm
Your sarcasm-metter must be broken, fellow.

Just let it go...
Let them gimp and limit themselves inside this little world of theirs.
Means that people who think this, are gimping and limiting themselves and you should just not listen to them. You should let it go.
Read it again and I'm sure you will see it. If you don't:

Read the sig below --------V

[axel15810]

I'm sorry that all the bad rangers out there ruin it for you.

Not gonna lie I tend to discriminate too. But that's only because when pugging I tend to see at least 5 poorly built rangers for every good one. I never go as far as declining them into my groups though. I just sigh a litle bit when I see a request from a ranger to join my group. I think other people have the same bad experiences with rangers...thus why they get so much hate. I also think it's an extremely popular choice for new players (bad players), especially with all the LOTR fans and such. That adds to it too.

[kurglar]

There's a simple way to not show the hate, just uncheck ranger or artie or whatever you won't accept from the lfm DUH!!!! That way no ones feelings get hurt. of course if you like instantly clicking deny then be my guest but don't be surprised when you get the tell "are you afk?"

[Oliphant]

I don't have a problem with any class. If anything, the game gets generic feeling, especially on level 20 for a while, and I welcome variety over easy wins. I do notice that some classes provide greater opportunity for players to do things that have negative consequences in terms of strategy. As a healer, I sometimes notice rangers (or any ranged/caster) grab too much agro and get damaged too much while far away from group healing. That is an efficiency issue for healers that people probably aren't thinking about all the time. I have to decide if I enough sp to send the loners single heal shots or focus on the bigger group. That's a challenge but it requires you to be aware of your surroundings, think and make decisions, and that's fun. In general, if I think I may run out of sp resources and it will likely determine the fate of the party, I will focus on group healing and people usually adapt to that.

Regarding earlier comments about healing-only healers and spotting them by their full hp bar, that does not sound like the signature of a healing-only toon. That's the signature of do-nothing. I am definitely not a healing-only cleric, but I also understand that healing is a valuable resource that needs to be conserved often to win the hardest quests. In general, buffs are always worth the sp cost. If I'm in a hard quest and the group has good dps, I would probably mostly buff and heal for the sake of the party. If the dps is a little low I'll throw in some divine punishment. That's the approach for the hard stuff. For the common trash, it really does not matter; you can swing, blade barrier, CC, heal, whatever. Extremely rarely, a party is so weak that I even abandon healing them altogether and pump divine punishment and/or blade barriers to win.

The good thing about a cleric is you never have to explain yourself to get in the group. But when things go wrong, you sometimes get unfairly blamed. Good trade off in my opinion.

[countfitz]

Ranger hate comes from them kinda being the worst class. Not saying they suck, mind you. DDO is, for all it's worth, decently balanced. I mean, yeah, casters and divines are way overpowered, but other than those 4 classes, the rest are all equally gimp in my opinion. Still, Rangers are the gimpest. Low HP, weak spells, ranged fighting has all kinds of problems, like widely varying DPS, meaning you'll do no DPS one second, and so much you gain aggro the next, forcing you to kite when 11 other people just want to beat on someone, and little to no role in most quests where you have something specific to do.

Now yeah, yours is really well geared, seems like he has enough HPs, more than enough SPs, and probably is great soloing and a nice addition to groups. But I wouldn't know that.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

You Ranger haters crack me up. :cool:

[Rogann]

I would have declined you ranger in a heartbeat(I myddo every melee that hits lfm) seeing you weren't up yo snuff. And prob would declined your monk aswell.

[Shade]

Instead of complaining here, why not think about the weaknesses of your build and how you can improve it so raid leaders could be more inclined to take you along and be confident in their decisions.

If you often like to join raids, especially as a DPS.. Why not become more of a proper DPS?

EG: Not a dex build, thats a pretty huge red flag for any raid leader checking your stats. Just from experience I know 95% of rangers with a dex so much higher then str rarely contribute much dps wise. You may be an exception, but should I take that risk and hope you are one of those 1 out of 20 players? It's not hate, it's a precaution based on years of experience.

I mean you could LR, drop your dex a few, max str and youd do a ton more dps. Because even at a dex as low as a 30, you'd hit everytime in echrono. Ranged gets away with lower to hit stat for the simply fact there is no ranged power attack, or twf penalty.

So a 30 dex is equivalent to a 44 strength minimum, usually more if you play a strong dps race, like one that with power attack bonuses. And people with 44+ str tend to not get declined, and hit things just fine.

With the upcoming epic levels, and easier epic difficultiles, one can only expect player to-hit values to go up, and ACs to drop, so dex will be less and less relevant to a dps build on epic raids.

[Delt]

High dex on a ranger always makes me cringe -- most of the time it's not even amounting to a decent AC payoff anyway, so it's just wasted points for the most part. It's usually a sure sign they rarely put away the bow too. High dex on a monk is more forgivable -- blinged out, monks do sick DPS anyway and the AC usually pays off.

I have one rule that's helped me enjoy new toons -- if I benefit from taking Weapon Finesse, I am probably building it wrong. People will disagree, but it's served me well.

I just TR'd an AA last night that is similar to the OPs. Going 12monk/6ranger/2rogue (or 13/6/1...haven't decided. 1dex+1tohit+30%scrolls vs Diamond Soul). So that's the loophole to my Weapon Finesse rule I guess...just making the same old mistakes, cept this time with WIS. On the plus side, I won't get declined like a ranger would, lol :cool:

[alexthegood]

i take rangers into my normal guild shrouds ever since im solo healing it, just cuz i hate fom-ing XX meeles/casters :D

[Faent]

High dex on a ranger always makes me cringe -- most of the time it's not even amounting to a decent AC payoff anyway, so it's just wasted points for the most part. It's usually a sure sign they rarely put away the bow too.

If you've MyDDO'd the Ranger to figure out his DEX, you should already have a pretty good idea of whether or not they'll put away the bow and whether or not they can achieve high AC.

[Delt]

If you've MyDDO'd the Ranger to figure out his DEX, you should already have a pretty good idea of whether or not they'll put away the bow and whether or not they can achieve high AC.

It's a general rule. I don't myDDO anyone. As an aside though, I'm not sure if myDDO can give you a good indication if someone is strapped to a bow 24/7. The higher the dex, the more likely, sure but even my dex-gimp AA had melee sets out most of the time.

[wax_on_wax_off]

With the upcoming epic levels, and easier epic difficultiles, one can only expect player to-hit values to go up, and ACs to drop, so dex will be less and less relevant to a dps build on epic raids.

Way to go to spread misinformation, better check your maths again on that one; AB is going to be much, much more important in U14 than it has been in a long time from all the information that I've seen.

[Chai]

Ill take a good player with a reputation for following directions over class + build + stats. Most of this endgame content doesnt require us to be on our mains, so if someone is bringing their first life ranger, its cool. If people actually believe not taking the class is what success of their raid hinges on, its the leadership, and not the ranger, that is questionable.

[flute136]

[QUOTE=TheLegendOfAra;4423685]The main reason my ranger is dex based isb because it was my very first toon in ddo. And atm its only a 28pnt build..

Same with my ranger.. A 28pnt, 20 elf ranger, dex based at start, starting 12 con, but i eventually got gear to allow me 549hp, 930sp same str as dex(38 self buffed sustainable). I also benefit from ravens/claw w/gem of many facets, and a +4 con tome. Pure rangers may not be good unless you spend the time to farm the gear out. MyDDO Snipedyou if you want, thats my ranger.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

Well, definitely rude to just "Gimp!" you like that. And of course a well played anything brings a lot to the table. I love ranged characters and nukers, but i've worked with a lot of bad ones who just start throwing down immediately without regard for aggro, and then either kite or die. That's one of the reasons i don't much like playing a healer.

It's just that the bad ones give the whole ball of wax a bad name. And it's so much easier to be bad than good. I have a tempest parked at 9/2 ftr, and a rog (mechanic repeater experiment, tried folllowing bunks build, but really just felt like i was piking damage wise. A lot of the time, killing stuff fast is all you're doing, and melee or of course a good caster can do that faster.)

So that's it, the explanation for ranged hate, and especially AA, who aren't seen as a major buffing class, unlike arti.

[krackythehoodedone]

Hi

My tuppence worth.

Firstly PL was ignorant.

However you must be prepared for the prejudice against ranged. This has been propagated by many sub standard AA players pulling loads of aggro and running about screaming for help with half the mobs in the scenario chasing them.

The best way to get round this is to get known and perform, especially if you can get a berth in a group with one of the top guilds on your server. Then after a few months you will find yourself getting in to all the top groups with the best players.

Looking at your toon you are fairly average atm. I'm not being rude and you asked for a critique. Hit Points could do with a boost. Not sure if ur healing specced but that is a great Ranger sideline if you can spare a feat. Your Dex is to high at the expense of Str which is massively important. 40 dex at lvl 25 with all the destinies and extra items about would be a doddle if your Dex was quite a bit lower than it is now. I think you have been putting level ups into Dex at the expense of Str.

Equipment wise, I think you already pointed out this is work in progress. But GS and Epics (if you plan to run them) will greatly enhance your effectiveness. E Mari Chain is now a light armour and the Alchemical Bow is easy to make. E Thornlord is a bit of a poison chalice because it is taking at least a year on average to grind for.

The good news is it isnt really the equipment that makes a ranged toon it is the way you play it. Managing aggro,use of IPS and manyshot make playing a ranged toon well one of the most difficult styles of play in the game to master.

A well built,equipped and played ranged toon is worth their spot in any group in the game even amongst the best of the best. Dont let anyone else persuade you different.

GL

Zexxi

[Aliss7]

Raid Leader: Sorry not taking Gimps!


Well, at least he said sorry. :rolleyes:

[Hilltrot]

Really sucks but having to deal with ignorant raid leaders is a fact a of ddo...nothing you can do if he won't listen to reason....

Don't play with them. Maybe just maybe if you're learning the ropes of the raid. Otherwise, start your own raid.

The reason why these raid leaders keep staying around is that people play with them.

[Symerith]

Imo classes like paladins & rangers with less DPS potential gained a lot with the expansion. Being able to fit in 30% haste boost or 30% dmge boost adds a lot to any build.

The burst DPS of AAs is pretty nice, with manyshot+slayer for 20 seconds, then switch to TWF with 30% haste boost, combined with the self healing, useful spells.

ANY class can be powerful, it just comes down to the dedication you have for your character, the build, split, feats, ED or twists that you chose.

[Entelech]

LOL.

You think you've got problems?

One of my toons is a 12 Cleric / 6 Fighter / 2 Monk Half-Elf Arcane Archer. It's faster to just go solo epics with him than to try to find a group.

I bet if I TR'ed him into 12 Favored Soul / 6 Fighter / 2 Monk though, he'd get groups with no trouble.

[PsychoBlonde]

EG: Not a dex build, thats a pretty huge red flag for any raid leader checking your stats. Just from experience I know 95% of rangers with a dex so much higher then str rarely contribute much dps wise.

Okay, explain this to me. I've been getting ranger past lives on my cleric for the +6 ranged damage. First life, I did a TWF ranger, expecting that this would be superior for fast leveling.

BOY was I ever wrong. Worst life I've done on this character thus far.

So, then I did a 19 ranger/1 monk ranged build instead. I maxed wisdom for SP and to-hit (Zen Archery). Picked up Maximize and Empower Heal. Str 22, Dex 30, Wis 38.

I didn't have problems with "low" dps. I also didn't have problems staying alive, either. I didn't really build it to be useful for endgame stuff, but I hit King's Forest at the end just to get the explore XP and I was decimating the mobs far better than my endgame monk.

This is why my cleric is an AA. Yes, it's feat-intensive. That's why she has 15 past lives so she doesn't need to compensate for low spell pen or low DC's or low SP with feats. She also has enormous burst damage + spell damage + massive healing. And evasion.

The only rangers I decline are the same as the other characters I decline. I don't care if you're a CLERIC. If you have 200 hp at level 15, you are not joining my group (if you're a fighter/paladin/barbarian and under 400, not coming.) If you're level 15 and still wearing Chronoscope or Korthos gear, guess what? Not coming. It's not that I object to you personally. You're just not ready to help me get my elites done, and I'd like to get this latest past life finished some time this year.

[Kennyburns]

People are dumb.
Rangers are in a better spot than rogues. I've been playing my Rogue a ton lately, and she's getting good traction with some but still getting silly declines. Not the best geared rogue on the server, but she's pretty well decked out with raid / epic / whatever loots you might imagine. My only current contemplation is if I take my current abishai bits and give her the full 5, or break them up across multiple toons.
I also have another non-full-caster I've been running through raids/epic PUGs lately - a Monk 7 / Ranger 11 / Fighter 2. I've got him geared in solid, but entirely BTA gear. T1 Epic Ring of the Stalker (Rogue has T3 with both slots used). T1 Epic Frozen Tunic. T1 Cove Brawling Gauntlets. etc.
Between the ranger and the rogue, you know which one gets autodecliend, and which one doesn't right?
People can be foolish, ignorant and judgmental.
Ya, Rogues = #1 DPS, only problem is making them survivable which the average pug isn't

[DevHead]

People are indeed silly. I've never auto-decline anyone b/c of their build and I've seen some weird stuff sometimes. Some of them work well, some don't; the point is that I'll always give them a chance b/c it's what I'd want with my weird build for my cleric life (12 cleric/6 ranger/2 monk), and she actually does ok. Not amazingly, but it's fun...and it's just a TR life.

[Oliphant]

So that's it, the explanation for ranged hate, and especially AA, who aren't seen as a major buffing class, unlike arti.

I was going to ask why the hate against rangers but not artis. Is that the only reason, because artis can buff?

[goodspeed]

I think the explanation can be assumed by what someone actually had the gull to admit in the chat box a day ago.

I'd said something about waiting on 20's on a ranger. And the guy came out and said at lv 20 without a bow your ranger is gimp.

hahaha just blew my mind. I didn't even think he was serious and was just being sarcastic. But damned if he wasn't 100% stone eyed. He even argued it.

And we're not talking a 10k stars build, no this is a 18/2 or pure ranger. So you want your answer? It's prolly guys like that that go 5 seconds and fire 10 shots, where something else is swing just 10's of times with a couple weapons and haste. That's not even factoring any kind of haste boosts to just shoot dmg up like my ranger alt has with the fighter splash.

Even an arti is firing off 30 rounds, even more so with fausade and blasting away for prolly 800 minimum saves all around with the arm.

[AzB]

People are indeed silly. I've never auto-decline anyone b/c of their build and I've seen some weird stuff sometimes. Some of them work well, some don't; the point is that I'll always give them a chance b/c it's what I'd want with my weird build for my cleric life (12 cleric/6 ranger/2 monk), and she actually does ok. Not amazingly, but it's fun...and it's just a TR life.

Half the fun is taking a group of folks and making it the best they can be. Cherry picking groups is efficient, I suppose, but not nearly as much fun as every run is going to be the exact same thing.

To each his or her own. I would rather not be in a group with that kind of attitude anyway. There are plenty of groups that are friendly, interesting, funny, and fun. Not just interested in "getting it over with" so they can have mo' better stuff. I was in a group the other night with my low level where a guy was guiding some lesser experienced people through the pit. That man had the patience of a saint, and it did take quite a while. But it was fun, and some of those awkward newbies were really starting to get the hang of timing the traps and jumping on the pipes. With no pressure to keep up with the zergs, they had a chance to really figure things out. It was a lot of fun.

Az

[Pendraagon]

I try not to be judgemental but I tend to cringe at the prospect of taking multiple unknown rangers into a raid.

Just too many bad builds out there that are too easy to cap by staying at the back and pewpewing all the way to level 20 without anyone noticing.

If I have the time I'll occasionally myDDO an applicant and I'm never surprised to see <350 HP, <100% Fortification and <30 strength. Maybe this is ok in a normal shroud but anything else?

Been away for 4 months.....seems to be lots of bad everything one life no tr gimps of all classes.
Cheers for gimped epic hard quests and epic normal raids or they would all be dead.

Half-elf level 24 AA

epic ravens,3 pc chrono,gem of many,stalker ring, tod ring,vemon necklace grims braclet,gloves of claw/spectral gloves 45hp gs which i wish i didnt need so i could shoe horn another epic. tier 3 alchemical bows etc etc....just looking for belt of mhoran to finish gear for now.

44 str
32 dex
682 hp without ship buffs
rogue deli for backstab damage
maximize for self heal.

Chances are I can out dps your gimp raid leader
Cheers

[Inouk]

This CAN be legitimate on occasion. I have turned down AA on a shroud run because I didn't have enough melee to contain Harry.

That said it sounds like this was just a case of bull-headed discrimination, which there is all too much of. I got turned down playing an arcane for shroud once because "we already have an arcane" when I've run shrouds with 4-5 arcanes that went super smooth (in fact I prefer having 3 or more arcanes for shroud). I got turned down on my fighter for EH Zawabi's because my holy cold iron outsider bane weapon wasn't good enough. That same fighter is a tempest build now (currently 12 ranger/2 ftr) and I fully expect I'll get this again at some point for being a ranger despite being a half-orc strength based build *shrug*. I'm not terribly concerned by it, I mostly run solo or with guild so it matters little to me. And yeah, even on a STR based tempest, many shot + haste boost is a room clearer.

I think mostly it comes down to some people need to feel important/elite. It makes them feel better if they can act superior to others. Sure, the perfect group of perfect toons will rock the content, but 95% of the time an imperfect groups of imperfect toons will as well.

[HastyPudding]

I think this whole hate thing comes from the fact that people have been playing DDO for so long and ranged dps has been horrible for so long, now that ranged dps is becoming viable people are slow to realize it. Heck, people are just now starting to understand monkchers (which I personally don't care for as it's an exploiter build).

I also blame this on the fact that DDO is a MMORPG. Ignorant people only want dps, dps, and more dps, and anything that isn't all-out dps is either gimp or a healbot (which, oddly, seems to be more accepted than a ranged ranger). This mindset is appallingly detrimental to the spirit of D&D. Yes, I know PnP and DDO are quite different, but it doesn't excuse this brute force way of doing everything.

That being said, I TR'd my rogue into a ranger the other day and intend on going pure 20 AA, and I'm enjoying it immensely. I was pure 20 ranger my first life, and went rogue mechanic on the second, and am looking forward to trying out shiradi and fury of the wild destinies once I hit 20.

The fact is, most of these 'gimp' rangers people are talking about are the ones who don't know when to put the bow away. No, I'm not saying activate manyshot and then go melee for 90% of the quest. I'm saying range when it's to your advantage; take into account the amount of mobs in an encounter and decide if it's better to stay range or melee. Also take into account the type of mobs; if there's a lot of AoE being thrown about or cleave-happy mobs like devils or barbarian-types, it might be better to stay ranged and out of the fray. Your healers will thank you. The ranger's advantage, tempest or AA, is their ability to switch on the fly to what's needed, and people seem too ignorant to do that.

A huge problem with ranged dps is that the ranger's ranged dps class is broken; the deepwood sniper. The arcane archer is okay, but they're not the hardcore ranged damage prestige that the sniper can be. Once turbine finally decides to fix the sniper, peoples minds will hopefully change.

People forget how to pull/lure mobs to them. The point of the bow is to grab a mob (if you get aggro, that is) and pull them to you, then wail on them in melee if their HP is still above half. I do this on my ranger and I don't even need to melee, seeing as the crits he deals usually brings a mob down to below half HP when I steal aggro, and he just kills them with a couple shots. I stay out of the fray, I don't need healing (of which I can heal myself), and I kill my share of mobs (which is usually higher than others, excepting barbarians and sorcerers).

And yes, I say 'when I steal aggro'. People undervalue those who don't steal aggro. Your dps might be slightly lower but not having aggro means not getting hit, not being a burden on healers, and no need for kiting (which people shouldn't be doing, anyway). The more durable people are taking the aggro and I'm adding my share of the damage, as well as spot-healing and passing out buffs like barkskin or resist energy to those who want it.

People also tend to forget that rangers are one of the most self-sufficient classes and always have been. They can heal themselves, and can be good spot healers if it gets nasty in a group, provided they know what they're doing. Heck, even the shiradi champion, which is the ranger destiny, comes with an aoe heal over time ability. They come equipped with their own elemental resistance/protection buffs. They have FoM and jump and can remove poisons and diseases. They are second only to rogues in sneaking and actually have spells to help them in this. In early-middle levels they can take animals/beasts out of a fight or make them fight for you.

Although, in my opinion, rangers are missing a crucial component to their class; their animal companion. Replacing this with a useless, weak animal summon is an outrage. A core advantage of the ranger class is having a pet that you can control and have them do things for you like open doors or switches/levers. Having an uncontrollable, weak pet is ridiculous. If artificers and druids have a decent pet, rangers should have one, too.

[Arlathen]

Play-style, Player Skills and Character Build > Gear & Class Deficiencies.

To each there own, but I've been happily making 'gimped' character classes work for me for too long now to auto discount anyone, in any situation, based on purely there class choice.

Also, after seeing the Artificer & Druid pets, while occasionally useful, I prefer having my dual skill set of Melee and Archery on my Ranger.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think this whole hate thing comes from the fact that people have been playing DDO for so long and ranged dps has been horrible for so long, now that ranged dps is becoming viable people are slow to realize it. Heck, people are just now starting to understand monkchers (which I personally don't care for as it's an exploiter build).

I also blame this on the fact that DDO is a MMORPG. Ignorant people only want dps, dps, and more dps, and anything that isn't all-out dps is either gimp or a healbot (which, oddly, seems to be more accepted than a ranged ranger). This mindset is appallingly detrimental to the spirit of D&D. Yes, I know PnP and DDO are quite different, but it doesn't excuse this brute force way of doing everything.

That being said, I TR'd my rogue into a ranger the other day and intend on going pure 20 AA, and I'm enjoying it immensely. I was pure 20 ranger my first life, and went rogue mechanic on the second, and am looking forward to trying out shiradi and fury of the wild destinies once I hit 20.

The fact is, most of these 'gimp' rangers people are talking about are the ones who don't know when to put the bow away. No, I'm not saying activate manyshot and then go melee for 90% of the quest. I'm saying range when it's to your advantage; take into account the amount of mobs in an encounter and decide if it's better to stay range or melee. Also take into account the type of mobs; if there's a lot of AoE being thrown about or cleave-happy mobs like devils or barbarian-types, it might be better to stay ranged and out of the fray. Your healers will thank you. The ranger's advantage, tempest or AA, is their ability to switch on the fly to what's needed, and people seem too ignorant to do that.

A huge problem with ranged dps is that the ranger's ranged dps class is broken; the deepwood sniper. The arcane archer is okay, but they're not the hardcore ranged damage prestige that the sniper can be. Once turbine finally decides to fix the sniper, peoples minds will hopefully change.

People forget how to pull/lure mobs to them. The point of the bow is to grab a mob (if you get aggro, that is) and pull them to you, then wail on them in melee if their HP is still above half. I do this on my ranger and I don't even need to melee, seeing as the crits he deals usually brings a mob down to below half HP when I steal aggro, and he just kills them with a couple shots. I stay out of the fray, I don't need healing (of which I can heal myself), and I kill my share of mobs (which is usually higher than others, excepting barbarians and sorcerers).

And yes, I say 'when I steal aggro'. People undervalue those who don't steal aggro. Your dps might be slightly lower but not having aggro means not getting hit, not being a burden on healers, and no need for kiting (which people shouldn't be doing, anyway). The more durable people are taking the aggro and I'm adding my share of the damage, as well as spot-healing and passing out buffs like barkskin or resist energy to those who want it.

People also tend to forget that rangers are one of the most self-sufficient classes and always have been. They can heal themselves, and can be good spot healers if it gets nasty in a group, provided they know what they're doing. Heck, even the shiradi champion, which is the ranger destiny, comes with an aoe heal over time ability. They come equipped with their own elemental resistance/protection buffs. They have FoM and jump and can remove poisons and diseases. They are second only to rogues in sneaking and actually have spells to help them in this. In early-middle levels they can take animals/beasts out of a fight or make them fight for you.

Although, in my opinion, rangers are missing a crucial component to their class; their animal companion. Replacing this with a useless, weak animal summon is an outrage. A core advantage of the ranger class is having a pet that you can control and have them do things for you like open doors or switches/levers. Having an uncontrollable, weak pet is ridiculous. If artificers and druids have a decent pet, rangers should have one, too.

I like a lot of what you say.

I have seen a lot lot of high DPS archers out there lately.
I do think they kite a little too much, but the mobs are dying very fast so there can be no doubt as to their DPS.

it continues to amaze me that so many people still think Rangers are gimped somehow.

They do need their pets.
No excuse now that we have Druid pets.

[hermespan]

Don't want to sound like a broken record or anything, but if you want to do a raid, just start your own group. It's so much less frustrating ;)

OTOH I kind of understand the raid leader's position on AAs. There are a lot of poorly played rangers. That being said, 1 or 2 poorly built, equipped and played rangers aren't going to kill your raid, so really it doesn't matter a whole hellofalot. I don't turn them down.

Rangers do get singled out a little more though. Rogues? I just don't understand that one. Assassins have some wicked dps even if you don't have decent weapons. It's one of the least gear dependent classes, which by definition makes them an excellent addition to the dps component of your raid pretty much without needing to examine them.

I tend to just look at a rogues HP. If it's 228, I don't want them in my raid. 450+ and you're in. I'd happily take an all rogue melee dps contingent. Stuff goes down _fast_.

I'm not saying I'd play a melee character with less than 500 HP, but 450 + improved evasion is Good Enough(tm)

[pyntsized]

i might just be a bad raid leader, but in all the shrouds and chronoscopes I have directed, I accept anybody until there are 2 slots left for healers. Only then will I decline people, and I make sure to send them a tell saying that last slots are for healers. Thats how I ended up running a shroud w/o casters (had 2 healers). Have to say, it had some of the best dps in all my shroud runs and by far it was the most fun

[Purkilius]

Ranger just happens to be one of the classes that are attractive to players who come from more "fixed role" MMO's. Because of that, you get far too many who think that pumping DEX, dumping CON, not self-healing, and never switching out of a Bow is what a Ranger is about.

Paladin (permanent shield, never using their smites, no buffing, little self healing), Rogue (dump CON, pump INT/DEX, dump STR, the "I never get aggro" excuse, and overly specializing in traps), and to a lesser extent "Battle" Clerics (don't yet know when to fight and when to heal, don't cast CC spells, little buffing, not healing anyone but themselves) also have bad reputations.

It's sad when you have to worry about every unknown Ranger, Rogue, Pali, or Fighter splashed Cleric joining your group, but there just happens to be far more of the "bad" ones than the good ones.

Well said :)

I have quested and raided with Ara lots of times and she is usually among the best players of the group.

[HastyPudding]

I have to say, I'm still enjoying my pure ranger. He's lvl 13 now, and I've been frequently commented on how well I do in groups. Kill counts don't mean anything but I'm frequently in the top 2. I don't claim to be top notch DPS, but a properly built and geared AA ranger seems to be underestimated. I can't wait to try out Shiradi Champion and Fury of the Wild builds once I hit 20.

I think where a bow ranger can shine is critical hits, since longbows have a x3 critical multiplier. If you get seeker items and things to help score big on critical hits, your damage might be mediocre, but your criticals will be spectacular. Bows are also useful for crowd control and on-hit effects, such as stat damage, blind, etc, especially paralysis.

Once again, it seems like strength is they key, as well. There's no need to have 40+ dex, to-hit is not that bad in DDO. I think people neglect to put points in strength, thus causing their damage to lag behind; this is probably the most common reason people say rangers suck.

[hermespan]

Once again, it seems like strength is they key, as well. There's no need to have 40+ dex, to-hit is not that bad in DDO. I think people neglect to put points in strength, thus causing their damage to lag behind; this is probably the most common reason people say rangers suck.

This!

I'm a big fan of tempest and TWF so I built a melee ranger (a few years ago, one of my first characters). Before the alacrity nerf (huge melee attack speed decrease) it was top tier dps, and I focused on str naturally. But even with a 28(fully geared and buffed) dex he has _no_ problem hitting anything with a bow. An AA definitely wouldn't.

I bet that between ranger and rogue there are more build points wasted on dex in this game than any other stat.

If you have an AA, and crazy high dex, take off your +8 item. I bet it doesn't make one iota of difference in your actual hit probability while playing. 36 is probably more than you'll ever need.

[Stoner81]

I am building an Arcane Archer atm who has 2 Rogue levels for traps, locks and hopefully UMD (if I can squeeze it in which I doubt) some great information in here about Dexterity which I will be using to make mine better :)

Thank you.

Stoner81.