Build Discrimination...

[Oberon_Shrader]

Hello out there!

I just want to address an issue that I have been experiencing in my past few years playing DDO: build discrimination (for lack of a better term).

I have a toon that is a non-traditional build that constantly gets rejected by groups (especially Shroud) for no other reason than that they don't like it. Now, I have played this toon up to cap and it is a very successful and useful build. It has never been a drag on any party that has let me join. On the contrary, I often end up the last man standing and saving the party and it especially shines in long quests like Coal Chamber.

I have two thoughts for this post. First is a question: Are others out there also experiencing this and frustrated by it or is it just me? Second is a request: I hope people who read this post would spread a feeling of acceptance for odd builds; afterall, this is just a game and people should be able to play it the way they want without being put down just because their build isn't traditional.

Thanks!

[SSFWEl]

Come to Orien.

[zwiebelring]

Even there it does happen. Play a pure Paladin and you will see ;). If your toon is no Paladin and still unconventional, come to Orien ;P.

[wax_on_wax_off]

If you're so proud of your character then post it's build here on the forums :)

[Clayness]

I have a healing bard (lovely Oomba on Orien), and its a pain to get accepted as a healer. People are very doubtful about bard healing, and I've tried many times that people say: "Well, lets get a FvS or cleric as well, just in case"

Haven't really tried being in an epic or raid that wiped due to healing, but still people remain very skeptical. You just gotta work at it, and prove your worth and you'll start getting a circle of friends who know what you can accomplish with your character.

[grayham]

Sorry to hear you're having a bad time with some groups. A couple of quick questions..

1. What is the build?
2. What server are you on?

My 'leveller' (14 sorc/1barb/X Wiz) has never been turned away on Thelanis, so either that's a sympathetic community or I have just been lucky. I'm all in favour of flavour, if it works for you then great.

[CoasterHops]

I'm on Khyber and recently I've been able to get into raids on my 12fvs/6pal/2fighter, Half Elf named Bitterpills, so maybe attitudes are changing out there, generally I will send a tell to PUG leaders stating that I am not a healer but a self healing dps build that can also single target heal tanks if need be. (It has no multi target cure spells whatsoever)
I have found that many people are happy to take it in the party and a lot become interested in the build itself.
One of the issues with playing a funky type of build is people will see the Icon and automatically attach a role to it revolving around class, therefore it is important to let your party members know what you are capable of and what your strengths and weaknesses are.

[Bacab]

Some "weird" builds are indeed trainwrecks.

Some "weird" builds are amazing.

I am curious what your build is.

BTW skill and gear go a long way.

On my road to completionist...I have been levelng in weird ways "15SORC/5Past life". I then +5 Heart to get my past life. Funny thing is...my 15SORC/5 whatever can still solo most of Amrath on Hard (some on elite).

Summary: its the player behind the keyboard...not the stats of the toon.

[78mackson]

I have a healing bard (lovely Oomba on Orien), and its a pain to get accepted as a healer. People are very doubtful about bard healing, and I've tried many times that people say: "Well, lets get a FvS or cleric as well, just in case"

Haven't really tried being in an epic or raid that wiped due to healing, but still people remain very skeptical. You just gotta work at it, and prove your worth and you'll start getting a circle of friends who know what you can accomplish with your character.

Bard healers was probably one of the strongest toons you could build.. ...til DOT's totally knocked them down the food chain. Some players(I'd say a good 'ol 70%) might see a FVS/Cleric as a healer - all I see is DPS..

[Doomcrew]

Hello out there!

I just want to address an issue that I have been experiencing in my past few years playing DDO: build discrimination (for lack of a better term).

I have a toon that is a non-traditional build that constantly gets rejected by groups (especially Shroud) for no other reason than that they don't like it. Now, I have played this toon up to cap and it is a very successful and useful build. It has never been a drag on any party that has let me join. On the contrary, I often end up the last man standing and saving the party and it especially shines in long quests like Coal Chamber.

I have two thoughts for this post. First is a question: Are others out there also experiencing this and frustrated by it or is it just me? Second is a request: I hope people who read this post would spread a feeling of acceptance for odd builds; afterall, this is just a game and people should be able to play it the way they want without being put down just because their build isn't traditional.

Thanks!


Yes it does happen. Probably most commonly descriminated against in DDO is the battle-cleric.

If your "untradional" build a bluebar/melee combination that has is great at surviving what else
does it do?. Self-healing and mid-line DPS doesn't bring a lot to the table, group-wise.

This is "just a game" and folks should be able to play "in the way they want", but that is two
sided coin. Taking someone else's poorly build character and carrying it through quest or may
infringe upon the "fun" of said others.

Form your own groups, you'll never get rejected again.

[Clayness]

Bard healers was probably one of the strongest toons you could build.. ...til DOT's totally knocked them down the food chain. Some players(I'd say a good 'ol 70%) might see a FVS/Cleric as a healer - all I see is DPS..

After I tried making a healing bard, I gotta admit, they're pretty great. You can pretty much cast every buff/heal necessary (with the exception of mass deathward, gotta get epic dusk heart for that), and you increase the party DPS alot more than a cleric/fvs. Songs, UMD elemental weapons, hafling heroic companion (tier 4 ofc), haste and rage are all great boosts to party DPS which I think make up for the lack of personal DPS on my bard.

[zwiebelring]

Self-healing and mid-line DPS doesn't bring a lot to the table, group-wise.
Mid-line dps is an average, means sufficient. Combined with self healing it is someone who can watch his own. Since people cry over no self healing ability for some classes someone like your example should be the most wanted group member on every server.

[Doomcrew]

Mid-line dps is an average, means sufficient. Combined with self healing it is someone who can watch his own. Since people cry over no self healing ability for some classes someone like your example should be the most wanted group member on every server.

If this is the case, (and I've correctly assumed the OP's build) the OP
would never be rejected, ever ....

As an arcane/melee or devine/melee, a build isn't going to ever be, "best
in show" for the slot applied for. Known players on a server (known in a good
way) very well may take these type of builds and be the top percentile of
characters. For the most part, they are just average and aren't able to excel
at one role. They may not be a detriment to a party, but just as often they
may slow the process down.

Some parties are all about xp per minute, some are about just completing. Maybe
this is affecting the OP as well, chosing LFM's not suited to the characters assets.

[zwiebelring]

a build isn't going to ever be, "best
in show" for the slot applied for.
*best of the best of the best* does not exclude others being suitable for certain roles. Further I have seen many people slowing down others for their lack of quest knowledge and preparations rather than just combining classes in a different way. A group needs characters who can fill the role. Difficulty setting might be a selective factor then and defining *best*. But in general, a group leader is searching for someone who can carry his weight.

Op states he gets rejected because people don't like his build. Unknown to us, why exactly they do not like it, just some tendencies towards *awkward* multiclassing. Well, in that case I feel sorry for him. People judge too early or judge by flawed tools like hp, MyDDO or killcounts.

As long as there is a possibility to meet those biased group leaders there is the possibility that the OP has found a way to play what he thinks is fun and still contribute to the party. And why would we deny this possibility?

[Alex301]

A lot of players have a very limited view of what particular classes/builds can do and some of these are just wrong. My sorcerer still gets turned down for quests because he's not 'dps' and i still run into people who think rogues are purely for disarming traps and unlocking chests.

Outside of these people, unconventional builds will always be met with some scepticism. In part i think it's because experienced players tend to min/max their toons and play optimal builds for their role so I often wonder if unusual builds are merely the result of inexperienced players who have no idea what they're doing :P I will never decline such builds though, unless i need someone to fill a specific and important role, but i am infrequently impressed by them.

With that said, gear and skill always make more difference than build in my experience. If a player i know is applying for the role of dps with their battle cleric and i know they can perform adequately, then i will accept them over the barbarian i don't know.

[RandomKeypress]

I think there's a 10 wiz 10 sorc I've seen on Argonessen - I'd think twice before inviting that one to do anything strenuous in a raid.

I joined a reaver's fate recently on my cleric. There were three bards, including one that specifically stated that he was healing spec'd. No other healers joined, so I went in with 1 cleric and 3 bards. I ate a disintegrate (got careless with agro and then rolled a 1) and that left the bards to heal. They ran out of mana and everyone ddoored out. Bards can be good healers but I don't feel comfortable betting on it.

[Terebinthia]

I think there's a 10 wiz 10 sorc I've seen on Argonessen - I'd think twice before inviting that one to do anything strenuous in a raid.

I joined a reaver's fate recently on my cleric. There were three bards, including one that specifically stated that he was healing spec'd. No other healers joined, so I went in with 1 cleric and 3 bards. I ate a disintegrate (got careless with agro and then rolled a 1) and that left the bards to heal. They ran out of mana and everyone ddoored out. Bards can be good healers but I don't feel comfortable betting on it.

That sounds like three folk who didn't know how to get their charges rather than an intrinsic problem with bard healing to me, to be honest.

[mobrien316]

If you are on Thelanis hit any of my LFM's. I have never rejected anyone for a build and I doubt I ever will.


If you can play, it doesn't matter what your build is. If you can't play, I couldn't care less what your build is. And the only way anyone can determine how you play is to quest with you.

I have run epics with a low-200's HP rogue who never seems to get hit, much less killed. He (or she) obviously knows how to play. I've also seen plenty of Shroud groups waiting forever to fill because the leader would accept someone and then boot them instantly if they had less than 400 hit points.

[Bacab]

That sounds like three folk who didn't know how to get their charges rather than an intrinsic problem with bard healing to me, to be honest.

I agree with the charge thing...

[Clayness]

A pure bard won't have that much less SP than a cleric, but you do need to put some work into being able to solo-heal with one. Get bauble, vile blasphemy and twisted talisman, keep vigor on yourself at all times, learn to rely on heal scrolls when doing single target healing, try to mitigate group damage by tossing our blurs or displacements. It isn't quite as easy as FvS healing where you have over 3K SP to waste.

On my bard I have so far solo healed plenty of epic quests, close to every epic quest in game. I've also solo healed a hard shroud and a TOD with optional, without spending a fortune in pots.

That being said, a normal melee bard will not be able to heal much, and he isn't really supposed to either. He'll most likely lack the metamagic feats, SP pool, SP regen items and other things to properly heal a raid when a healer dies. He can use scrolls to help keep up a tank in bad situations, or help res people when necessary, but his mass heals will be pretty ineffective.

So when you died, you basically left the raid healing in the hands of one bard, who, it sounds like, didn't know how to get charges and conserve his SP. Sounds more like a player issue than a build issue.

[LOOON375]

Im assuming you are referring to your 11 cleric/ 8 fighter?

[Oberon_Shrader]

Yes, although I had not originally meant that information to be common knowledge (I forgot about the MyDDO page, oh well). Additionally, I will admit that "played him to cap" was a slight stretch. But, as this post was not meant to be a discussion of my build in particular, but rather of people's attitudes, I hope all will be forgiven.

Since the cat is out of the bag, I will address what his build is. He is NOT a battle cleric, at least not the way most people think of it. He is most correctly described as a self-healing tank with caster support (meaning he supports caster/healers with DVs and other things.

He is built for durability and generally outlasts other melees, as he doesn't rely on the healer for healing (additionally, this takes pressure of the healer, since he doesn't need to be healed). I will freely admit that his DPS is not exceptional, but it's better than you might think. He tops the 400 HP range easily and will have a total AC of 52 when completely done, and that is a static AC. While I don't think that is extremely high, I don't think it's anything to sneeze at, either. Finally, he has a lot of DVs and they regen. It makes a difference on those very long, elite quests. All in all, he pulls his weight and adds value to any party.

Anyway, I want to thank everyone for all the responses, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading them and gained a lot of insight into the attitude of the community at large.

[Olath_Senger]

...and will have a total AC of 52 when completely done, and that is a static AC. While I don't think that is extremely high, I don't think it's anything to sneeze at, either.

Yes it is. At level 19, 52 AC is useless.

[Uska]

Yes, although I had not originally meant that information to be common knowledge (I forgot about the MyDDO page, oh well). Additionally, I will admit that "played him to cap" was a slight stretch. But, as this post was not meant to be a discussion of my build in particular, but rather of people's attitudes, I hope all will be forgiven.

Since the cat is out of the bag, I will address what his build is. He is NOT a battle cleric, at least not the way most people think of it. He is most correctly described as a self-healing tank with caster support (meaning he supports caster/healers with DVs and other things.

He is built for durability and generally outlasts other melees, as he doesn't rely on the healer for healing (additionally, this takes pressure of the healer, since he doesn't need to be healed). I will freely admit that his DPS is not exceptional, but it's better than you might think. He tops the 400 HP range easily and will have a total AC of 52 when completely done, and that is a static AC. While I don't think that is extremely high, I don't think it's anything to sneeze at, either. Finally, he has a lot of DVs and they regen. It makes a difference on those very long, elite quests. All in all, he pulls his weight and adds value to any party.

Anyway, I want to thank everyone for all the responses, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading them and gained a lot of insight into the attitude of the community at large.

Sorry ac 52 might as well be zero at cap and for a melee you need to be hitting a lot more than just over 400 hps unless you have evasion and a good reflex save and even then you want a lot more hp and as to dvs meh rahter have a radiant servant with a pumped aura.

depending on the quest and how many others I had applying to lfm I might or might not take you I wouildnt chose you for a healer or melee spot though just as a fill in

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Happens to me all the time. But I long ago realised that the people who would reject me because of my build, are not people I want to play with anyway.... so I move on.

But..... yes. It still bothers me.

[Chai]

With its DOT + its "mid-line" melee DPS it keeps up with pure melee until melee are very well geared on raid bosses, and its more self sufficient by far in regular quests.

Many people in DDO have not been able to look past the traditional tank/heal/CC/damager roles that are much more required to be adhered to in other MMOs for success. This mentality peaked shortly after the game went free to play and took some of the market share from other games that use the role system more rigidly. Its on the decline again as players are realizing that splashed divines can keep raids up and anything that plays a DPS role doesnt have to be builds only focused on DPS. Survivability has its merrits in tough encounters as well.

I find that character building is about building good toons, and not just the 5 or 6 accepted cookie cutter builds. People can suspect the class split all they want, but if they dont know how it actually performs, its their lack of knowledge, and not the player of the "suspect toon" lack of knowledge, that drives the game further and further toward cookie cutter land. They wont gamble and take the "odd build" into their group to fill the DPS slot when they know a pure fighter or barb will perform in the role they need it for, regardless of how it compares to the odd build.

[Cyr]

Yes, although I had not originally meant that information to be common knowledge (I forgot about the MyDDO page, oh well). Additionally, I will admit that "played him to cap" was a slight stretch. But, as this post was not meant to be a discussion of my build in particular, but rather of people's attitudes, I hope all will be forgiven.

Since the cat is out of the bag, I will address what his build is. He is NOT a battle cleric, at least not the way most people think of it. He is most correctly described as a self-healing tank with caster support (meaning he supports caster/healers with DVs and other things.

He is built for durability and generally outlasts other melees, as he doesn't rely on the healer for healing (additionally, this takes pressure of the healer, since he doesn't need to be healed). I will freely admit that his DPS is not exceptional, but it's better than you might think. He tops the 400 HP range easily and will have a total AC of 52 when completely done, and that is a static AC. While I don't think that is extremely high, I don't think it's anything to sneeze at, either. Finally, he has a lot of DVs and they regen. It makes a difference on those very long, elite quests. All in all, he pulls his weight and adds value to any party.

Anyway, I want to thank everyone for all the responses, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading them and gained a lot of insight into the attitude of the community at large.

Perhaps your issue is as much your class breakdown as your explanation of why your build is a good one. 52 AC and 400 hp on a 'tank' build is nothing to brag about.

I certainly would not rely upon a build like this for any critical role in a party, let alone think it added more then the average pugger. I certainly can understand people denying you slots in their parties. Fyi, this is coming from someone who runs deep multiclass builds commonly and guilds with lots of people who have some pretty interesting builds.

Mulitclassing is not a bad thing, but it is the easiest way to make a bad build if you are going into things without a proper understanding of how the game plays.

[LOOON375]

Yes, although I had not originally meant that information to be common knowledge (I forgot about the MyDDO page, oh well).

So you come here playing a victim because people don't like your toon/BUILD, while asking why people would do such a thing........

And then you admit that you had no intention of actually discussing your build......(this to me is strange, since this could actually be the problem) which is why I my DDO'd your toons. And then you admit that you messed up and had intended for your toons to NOT be public.........

If I needed a healer In one of my groups, I would not accept that combo, except as a filler. PERIOD

Now granted, personally I have never rejected an applicant to any of my LFM's.....ever.

After your admission, it seems you already knew the answer to your own question before you posted this on the the forum.

I fail to see an issue.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think there's a 10 wiz 10 sorc I've seen on Argonessen - I'd think twice before inviting that one to do anything strenuous in a raid.

I joined a reaver's fate recently on my cleric. There were three bards, including one that specifically stated that he was healing spec'd. No other healers joined, so I went in with 1 cleric and 3 bards. I ate a disintegrate (got careless with agro and then rolled a 1) and that left the bards to heal. They ran out of mana and everyone ddoored out. Bards can be good healers but I don't feel comfortable betting on it.

How about inviting him for the other eleven spots in the raid? :cool:

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If you are on Thelanis hit any of my LFM's. I have never rejected anyone for a build and I doubt I ever will.


If you can play, it doesn't matter what your build is. If you can't play, I couldn't care less what your build is. And the only way anyone can determine how you play is to quest with you.

I have run epics with a low-200's HP rogue who never seems to get hit, much less killed. He (or she) obviously knows how to play. I've also seen plenty of Shroud groups waiting forever to fill because the leader would accept someone and then boot them instantly if they had less than 400 hit points.

If only I could check their inventories..

I can tell more about the usefullness of a player from the potions he is carrying than anything thing about his build...

[Phidius]

Op, I encourage you to start your own groups. Having the star and stating the terms clearly in the Social Panel is very empowering. Just don't wait until the group's filled - take what you get and get started.


...
I joined a reaver's fate recently on my cleric. There were three bards, including one that specifically stated that he was healing spec'd. No other healers joined, so I went in with 1 cleric and 3 bards. I ate a disintegrate (got careless with agro and then rolled a 1) and that left the bards to heal. They ran out of mana and everyone ddoored out. Bards can be good healers but I don't feel comfortable betting on it.

That says more about the group's strategy than about the bards... when people are competing to get the Reaver's aggro, it can be very difficult to get a charge. When that happens on my healers, I simply stop healing people until I get my charge.

If they can keep up the DPS without me spending SP, groovy.


Happens to me all the time. But I long ago realised that the people who would reject me because of my build, are not people I want to play with anyway.... so I move on.

But..... yes. It still bothers me.

I haven't played a "traditional" build in a very long time, and I get declined/ignored frequently. I stopped being bothered by it, and now view it as an early warning system - it keeps me out of groups that I wouldn't enjoy.

I must admit that I do miss the blind invites, though :D

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Yes, although I had not originally meant that information to be common knowledge (I forgot about the MyDDO page, oh well). Additionally, I will admit that "played him to cap" was a slight stretch. But, as this post was not meant to be a discussion of my build in particular, but rather of people's attitudes, I hope all will be forgiven.

Since the cat is out of the bag, I will address what his build is. He is NOT a battle cleric, at least not the way most people think of it. He is most correctly described as a self-healing tank with caster support (meaning he supports caster/healers with DVs and other things.

He is built for durability and generally outlasts other melees, as he doesn't rely on the healer for healing (additionally, this takes pressure of the healer, since he doesn't need to be healed). I will freely admit that his DPS is not exceptional, but it's better than you might think. He tops the 400 HP range easily and will have a total AC of 52 when completely done, and that is a static AC. While I don't think that is extremely high, I don't think it's anything to sneeze at, either. Finally, he has a lot of DVs and they regen. It makes a difference on those very long, elite quests. All in all, he pulls his weight and adds value to any party.

Anyway, I want to thank everyone for all the responses, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading them and gained a lot of insight into the attitude of the community at large.

Sounds great to me.

You said Khyber? All I have is lowbies there, otherwise I'd say let's go run somethng together.

One reason you are at a disadvantage with him and groups is because people seem to think that Clerics are only good for healing...

.. and people "NEED" a healer.

so they cannot contemplate how your build can "help them" in any way.

/Clr builds have always seemed to have the worst of it with build discrimination.... for some reason.

[Bacab]

I would suggest to the OP getting level 12CLR because Radiant Servant 2 is just that good.

His build certainly is not "optimal". But if he just plans on running some content and eventually TRing...I see a LOT of 12CLR/8Past life builds (eat a +3 Heart to make it 9CLR/11 Past life) for the sole purpose of getting certain PL's.

I have a buddy on Ghallanda who plays weird abomination (sarcasm) builds (like 12WIZ/6FTR/2ROG) or stuff like that. And he absolutely rolls through quests.

The PLAYER>the build.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Mulitclassing is not a bad thing, but it is the easiest way to make a bad build if you are going into things without a proper understanding of how the game plays.

Agreed, but I think that statement is at the root of a lot of the problems we see in the game today.

People gravitate towards "safe" builds -- pure classed level 20s or some build pulled from the forums that is deemed "good". Of course, without the proper gear or knowledge of game mechanics, those builds aren't going to produce any magical results.

Unfortunately, people who know little often believe there is little to know, and greatly over estimate their knowledge. The result is a profusion of cookie cutter builds and a belief that anything that is not a cookie cutter build is automatically gimped.

Couple that with a group leader reading an "ideal" party makeup from some list he found online, and you end up with a game dominated by cookie cutter builds. Hmmm, what massive online game does THAT sound like? :D

Of course, the best way to deal with that is simply to play the game.

Taking my "gimped" 19/1 cleric/fighter into an all caster elite Shroud is always fun, especially when I lead the kill count and get to listen to a bunch of people playing "uber" cookie cutter builds grumble during the entire run.

The most fun I have ever had in this game was an all caster eChrono where I led the kill count, tanked the Conjoined Abishai, and got to listen to someone (poorly) playing a FvS literally shriek into audio chat that all this was completely impossible. Oh, and the FvS died 8 times. :D

DDO is all about build flexibility and player skill. Enjoy it while it lasts, because all signs point to a future DDO that can best be described as WoWjr.

[Oberon_Shrader]

In response to LOOON375:

I did not come here to play the victim, only to voice a concern. I did not come here to discuss my build, because I am satisfied with it and don't want to listen to people tell me how bad it is.

You can have whatever opinion you like of my build; I don't care. Therefore, I see no reason to discuss it.

Please don't misconstrue my intentions or use partial quotes. Please read my first post. I don't think its tone is overly complaintive, though I am certainly not happy when I run into people who don't want to play with me.

Your comment is dismissive and does not speak to the topic I presented when I started this thread. There is no reason for you to post if you only wish to condemn me and my build.

Additionally, I know why people "would do such a thing": they take the game so seriously that they exclude any build that they aren't sure of in the (false) hope of ensuring success.

As an aside, I would never try to be the healer of the group or represent myself as one in any way. Nor would I want to take the place of a primary melee. But even if a group has the four primary roles (healer, tank/melee DPS, caster, trapper) that still leaves two spaces open to play with.

Finally, using this build I have outlived and outlasted melees with 100+ HP more than me; I kid you not. This is because the self healing means I effectively have well over 1200 HP before the healer ever has to heal me. Even if I get hit, I can take it and keep going.

[Cyr]

Agreed, but I think that statement is at the root of a lot of the problems we see in the game today.

People gravitate towards "safe" builds -- pure classed level 20s or some build pulled from the forums that is deemed "good". Of course, without the proper gear or knowledge of game mechanics, those builds aren't going to produce any magical results.

Unfortunately, people who know little often believe there is little to know, and greatly over estimate their knowledge. The result is a profusion of cookie cutter builds and a belief that anything that is not a cookie cutter build is automatically gimped.


People who do not know any better picking safe builds is not a bad thing. It is a good thing. It means they do not feel like they have horrible builds and have to re-roll.

[Oberon_Shrader]

People who do not know any better picking safe builds is not a bad thing. It is a good thing.

I would agree with this to a certain extent. However, I think there are many more people playing DDO that do/should know better, based on their level of experience, than those that don't. Sadly I don't think their knowledge is reflected the way it should be.

[stainer]

Hello out there!

I have two thoughts for this post. First is a question: Are others out there also experiencing this and frustrated by it or is it just me? Second is a request: I hope people who read this post would spread a feeling of acceptance for odd builds; afterall, this is just a game and people should be able to play it the way they want without being put down just because their build isn't traditional.

Thanks!

To your first thought - the person forming a group would be trying to put together the best group possible, without knowing you, or your non traditional build it may not be apparent to the person putting up the lfm that you will be of any use in a given quest.

To your request, I would be hopeful that people that make odd builds would not feel entitled to being allowed into every lfm and understand that they can in fact put up their own lfm very easily.

[Gkar]

Yes, although I had not originally meant that information to be common knowledge (I forgot about the MyDDO page, oh well). Additionally, I will admit that "played him to cap" was a slight stretch. But, as this post was not meant to be a discussion of my build in particular, but rather of people's attitudes, I hope all will be forgiven.

Since the cat is out of the bag, I will address what his build is. He is NOT a battle cleric, at least not the way most people think of it. He is most correctly described as a self-healing tank with caster support (meaning he supports caster/healers with DVs and other things.

He is built for durability and generally outlasts other melees, as he doesn't rely on the healer for healing (additionally, this takes pressure of the healer, since he doesn't need to be healed). I will freely admit that his DPS is not exceptional, but it's better than you might think. He tops the 400 HP range easily and will have a total AC of 52 when completely done, and that is a static AC. While I don't think that is extremely high, I don't think it's anything to sneeze at, either. Finally, he has a lot of DVs and they regen. It makes a difference on those very long, elite quests. All in all, he pulls his weight and adds value to any party.

Anyway, I want to thank everyone for all the responses, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading them and gained a lot of insight into the attitude of the community at large.

Well you specifically mentioned Shroud. In shroud there is almost no one on one healing so self healing is useless unless all your healer types go down in pt 4 somehow.

You DPS is admittedly not great, you HP is average, and your AC isn't enough to make much of a difference at that level (might save you a few hits on norm in Shroud against trash, but the first post trash mass heal erases that benefit anyway).

I'm sure you'd make a fine filler, but you can't, by your own admission, fill either the healing or dps role in shroud.

[Cyndrome]

OP said the problem is mostly with Shroud runs. Other than hoping for a healer or two when I lead a Shroud I take the first to hit the LFM.

[Oberon_Shrader]

To your first thought - the person forming a group would be trying to put together the best group possible, without knowing you, or your non traditional build it may not be apparent to the person putting up the lfm that you will be of any use in a given quest.

To your request, I would be hopeful that people that make odd builds would not feel entitled to being allowed into every lfm and understand that they can in fact put up their own lfm very easily.

I can understant that people might not know me (in fact, they probably don't), but unless they are looking for a particular role to be filled I don't see why they should prevent people from joining. That is, if they are looking for a particular kind of character, I can understand being refused. Otherwise, it just seems inconsiderate, even rude perhaps.

As for feeling entitled, I don't think anyone should feel entitled to require things of others.

[Uska]

I would suggest to the OP getting level 12CLR because Radiant Servant 2 is just that good.

His build certainly is not "optimal". But if he just plans on running some content and eventually TRing...I see a LOT of 12CLR/8Past life builds (eat a +3 Heart to make it 9CLR/11 Past life) for the sole purpose of getting certain PL's.

I have a buddy on Ghallanda who plays weird abomination (sarcasm) builds (like 12WIZ/6FTR/2ROG) or stuff like that. And he absolutely rolls through quests.

The PLAYER>the build.

Having radiant II would make a lot of difference because it is that good

[Luis_Velderve]

I have a strange build. Its a TR 12FVS/1wiz/1fighter DAA. I do quest with guildies about 95% of the time.

I have been rejected two times ATM from groups. First time I said to the leader "ask x if I can do the job " I got the invite fast enough to hear X saying that I can kill and heal decently and at a HOX the raid leader asked me for a full explanation of my build and I did and get his invite.

Point is simple if you got a strange build you better have a reason because chaos can not be your guide. Be prepared to explain your build and do not get mad ;that is the road you paved.

[garlor]

this post is useless without you telling what the heck your build is

the end point is

you can play whatever toon you want

I can accept whoever I want into my party

[Chai]

Point is simple if you got a strange build you better have a reason because chaos can not be your guide. Be prepared to explain your build and do not get mad ;that is the road you paved.

Yeah, the issue there however, is the only thing the leader has to go on the classes and level split. They are perfectly willing to assume that a 20 barb is good or an 18/1/1 ranger is good because those kinds of builds are the accepted cookie cutter builds in the game.

I have seen barbs built for con who cant hit water if they fell out of a boat, and huge HP totals make them look good in group. But hey, no one subjects them to the 3 stage interview process + reference checks and pee test before accepting them into their group, because their class split isnt suspect.

My advice to those with unique builds is make alot of your own LFMs and establish yourself as a known player on your server who handles their own, regardless of how screwed up the class + level split looks in the LFM window. There are several players I can name, some who still play and some who dont, who have done crazy things none of the cookie cutter builds have accomplished, and once they established themselves as a good player on their server, people dont even care what kind of toon they are running - they want the PLAYER in the group.

[GermanicusMaximus]

People who do not know any better picking safe builds is not a bad thing. It is a good thing. It means they do not feel like they have horrible builds and have to re-roll.

They may not have to reroll, but we have reached the point where too many people believe that a "safe" build in and of itself is sufficient to have a viable toon. (See my comment about the over confident FvS who managed to die 8 times. He "knew" he was uber, even when he clearly was not.)

The next step in that chain of events is all the people with supposedly safe builds coming face to face with the fact that their toons are somewhat less than uber, and their conclusion that the game is somehow broken, rather than the reality that their individual toon is just substandard.

These people are now starting to chart the future direction of this game. We saw the first indication of that with the Shroud blades being unnerfed. The resulting cries of "Doom!" from people playing mediocre (or worse) toons resulted in the renerfing of the blades.

Every "X is overpowered, nerf X!" forum thread has its root in people playing substandard toons that utilize a "safe" build. That is the new environment we are in, it is shaping the direction of the game, and not in a direction that is advantageous for anyone who has bothered to learn the game mechanics.

When enough people absolve themselves from any responsibility other than selecting a "safe" build, the game will be dumbed down to the point where that is all that is required.

The delay of the planned enhancement redesign is probably the luckiest break this game has had in its entire history. In the current environment, it looked like the shortest possible path to WoWjr.

[Jsbeer]

Every "X is overpowered, nerf X!" forum thread has its root in people playing substandard toons that utilize a "safe" build. That is the new environment we are in, it is shaping the direction of the game, and not in a direction that is advantageous for anyone who has bothered to learn the game mechanics.


Up to here I was agreeing with you. But some classes are much more powerful than others at the moment. If you think, for example, that a Paladin is in any way as powerful as an FvS, or that (in 95%+ of mid and high level content) pure melee such as Fighters or Barbarians are as versatile or powerful as arcane or divine casters then I think we must be playing different games......

Do good builds make a difference? Yes sure, and any class with a decent build can get to cap fine. But some classes ARE at the present time far more powerful AND self-sufficient than others. And all these classes can be found under the Spellcaster tab at character creation...

[jeremyt]

great read this thread :)

agree with chai and others, best way to overcome adversity is to build a name for yourself as a player with solid skills/preparation/knowledge. Once word gets around and folks start recognizing you your class split becomes inconsequential (check my sig, tons of experimental toons in my capped toon lineup)

But very much unlike some folks in this thread I will decline people quite often. Rude? I think its rude you think its rude. If the LFM poster doesn't know you and your obviously bringing what could be a trainwreck to the table why would you hold such a strong feeling of entitlement that you need access to their playtime?

Also you said myddo/kill counts/hp totals are flawed indicators...how so? And how are kill counts THAT flawed? I mean really. If i run a bunch of quests with some folks and my toon is getting 95% of the kills every quest I would bet money he is in fact contributing quite a bit more to completions than the barb with 3 kills. The cleric with three kills, maybe not depending on the mileage gained from his healing utility ect. And the min HP in shroud that you scoffed at: shroud has points where anyone hitting harry will take XXX amount of damage over 0:0X amount of time. Accepting players with very low HP thresholds means one of several things: A: the player communicated other damage mitigating capabilities their toon possesses to counteract the lack of HP B: they will die. C: the healers will have to expend exponential amounts more SP per second healing the new lowest denominator (faster healing almost always means dipping into mass cures which chew through blue bar multiple times faster than cycling mass heals) D: they wont be in melee range and thus will be piking or ranging. In which case if they cant heal themselves become a drain on the healers yet again. So, killcount info is valid (check), HP is useful information (check) which leaves myddo. granted myddo does have flaws, these flaws are predictable and with some use it becomes obvious when these flaws are present (haggle item worn/extremly old update date ect) and can be compensated for and still gleen wonderfully accurate information (unless the update date is truely horrendous like on my main which was a lev 14 fvs 2 fighter for close to a year even though I had TRed him through something like 12 other classes since that build) ..but if a dude hits my elite coalchamber LFM and i dont know him and myddo shows his gear reflecting an absolute lack of knowledge, i decline. I dont want to play with that speed of a toon/player in elite content where my aim is to kick some ass in a reasonable amount of time (and not just drag pikers)..sometimes I might WANT to take whatever and my piker tolerance is through the roof/ but usually not.

[jeremyt]

okok, typing books tonight, but had a night where my piker tolerance was sky high two days ago. All indicators (kill counts/lack of deaths/wing by name/decent gear) pointed towards one other decent player and 4 newbies doing their best to just not ding. (elite shadow crypt flaggers/elite stormcleave/elite von 1/2 yadda yadda). The decent player makes some mistakes here and there, dings one or twice, generally contributes well and is well prepared (WF sorc). High five, glad to have him, good fun guy to chat/group with.

Some of the less skill players really struggling with the elite content. Some take it well and some laughs are had. Not a single quest goes by where i did not incur a 10% pen. After literally pulling these folks through every avail lev 8 quest on elite I decide I want to continue sans the -10% and bid the folks farewell and split to reform with the sorc for some XP farming. All smiles and thank you's except the arti. The arti was mad.. really really really mad that i wasnt willing to buy a mic to explain instructions more thoroughly (i recently ran over my mic with my chair) and I was unwilling to carry them through more quests. Called me an elitist ******bag actually. Spamming me nasty tells about how I was new once too and yadda yadda. Horrid person really. Why is it rude that i didnt WANT to run with this person anymore and so left? Where is the entitlement coming from with this person (and the OP of this thread) that people are being rude for not wanting to group with them if there is a real or perceived capability gap? Why do you/they think its the star holder's RESPONSIBILITY to run with you? its a game, maybe you suck hard and they feel like busting out quests fast that night. Why is that rude?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

great read this thread :)

agree with chai and others, best way to overcome adversity is to build a name for yourself as a player with solid skills/preparation/knowledge. Once word gets around and folks start recognizing you your class split becomes inconsequential (check my sig, tons of experimental toons in my capped toon lineup)

But very much unlike some folks in this thread I will decline people quite often. Rude? I think its rude you think its rude. If the LFM poster doesn't know you and your obviously bringing what could be a trainwreck to the table why would you hold such a strong feeling of entitlement that you need access to their playtime?

Also you said myddo/kill counts/hp totals are flawed indicators...how so? And how are kill counts THAT flawed? I mean really. If i run a bunch of quests with some folks and my toon is getting 95% of the kills every quest I would bet money he is in fact contributing quite a bit more to completions than the barb with 3 kills. The cleric with three kills, maybe not depending on the mileage gained from his healing utility ect. And the min HP in shroud that you scoffed at: shroud has points where anyone hitting harry will take XXX amount of damage over 0:0X amount of time. Accepting players with very low HP thresholds means one of several things: A: the player communicated other damage mitigating capabilities their toon possesses to counteract the lack of HP B: they will die. C: the healers will have to expend exponential amounts more SP per second healing the new lowest denominator (faster healing almost always means dipping into mass cures which chew through blue bar multiple times faster than cycling mass heals) D: they wont be in melee range and thus will be piking or ranging. In which case if they cant heal themselves become a drain on the healers yet again. So, killcount info is valid (check), HP is useful information (check) which leaves myddo. granted myddo does have flaws, these flaws are predictable and with some use it becomes obvious when these flaws are present (haggle item worn/extremly old update date ect) and can be compensated for and still gleen wonderfully accurate information (unless the update date is truely horrendous like on my main which was a lev 14 fvs 2 fighter for close to a year even though I had TRed him through something like 12 other classes since that build) ..but if a dude hits my elite coalchamber LFM and i dont know him and myddo shows his gear reflecting an absolute lack of knowledge, i decline. I dont want to play with that speed of a toon/player in elite content where my aim is to kick some ass in a reasonable amount of time (and not just drag pikers)..sometimes I might WANT to take whatever and my piker tolerance is through the roof/ but usually not.

Kill counts mean that you killed the most monsters.

It may also be a rough comparison of DPS, but that is only if the other players had roughly the same amount of time of weapons on target. (meaning if you zerged ahead and killed everything before anyone else got there, don't try to brag to me about how much your DPS is compared to everyone else in the back of the room.)

Whether you choose to equate kill counts to contributions of completing quests or not..... well,... what can I say? Your opinion and mine are obviously different.

as is your opinion on what a "piker" is as well.

[Chai]

People who do not know any better picking safe builds is not a bad thing. It is a good thing. It means they do not feel like they have horrible builds and have to re-roll.

As a stepping stone, yes. As a platform to brag about and look down on everyone else from, no. Most of the time when someone looks at a build and denies someone to a group because of it, its due to their own lack of understanding, not the person playing the "suspect builds" lack of understanding.

All too often choosing the "safe build" is interpreted as everything else being flavor or sub par. The "safe build" becomes the box that the player cannot think outside of, and this situation is their roadblock to gaining further build knowledge / playstyle knowledge.

The other issue of course, is that this is how other MMOs work. Find the one combination that works and use it to grind to your hearts content. People that come here from other MMOs expect this game to work just like that, and after they found their one formula to success, they suspect that there is no other method. This is part of the reason why we still see raid groups that have one or two casters, and take casters off the LFM because they "need moar DPS". There absolutely has to be 2 healers, and ONLY one tank etc....

[Chai]

great read this thread :)

agree with chai and others, best way to overcome adversity is to build a name for yourself as a player with solid skills/preparation/knowledge. Once word gets around and folks start recognizing you your class split becomes inconsequential (check my sig, tons of experimental toons in my capped toon lineup)

But very much unlike some folks in this thread I will decline people quite often. Rude? I think its rude you think its rude. If the LFM poster doesn't know you and your obviously bringing what could be a trainwreck to the table why would you hold such a strong feeling of entitlement that you need access to their playtime?

Also you said myddo/kill counts/hp totals are flawed indicators...how so? And how are kill counts THAT flawed? I mean really. If i run a bunch of quests with some folks and my toon is getting 95% of the kills every quest I would bet money he is in fact contributing quite a bit more to completions than the barb with 3 kills. The cleric with three kills, maybe not depending on the mileage gained from his healing utility ect. And the min HP in shroud that you scoffed at: shroud has points where anyone hitting harry will take XXX amount of damage over 0:0X amount of time. Accepting players with very low HP thresholds means one of several things: A: the player communicated other damage mitigating capabilities their toon possesses to counteract the lack of HP B: they will die. C: the healers will have to expend exponential amounts more SP per second healing the new lowest denominator (faster healing almost always means dipping into mass cures which chew through blue bar multiple times faster than cycling mass heals) D: they wont be in melee range and thus will be piking or ranging. In which case if they cant heal themselves become a drain on the healers yet again. So, killcount info is valid (check), HP is useful information (check) which leaves myddo. granted myddo does have flaws, these flaws are predictable and with some use it becomes obvious when these flaws are present (haggle item worn/extremly old update date ect) and can be compensated for and still gleen wonderfully accurate information (unless the update date is truely horrendous like on my main which was a lev 14 fvs 2 fighter for close to a year even though I had TRed him through something like 12 other classes since that build) ..but if a dude hits my elite coalchamber LFM and i dont know him and myddo shows his gear reflecting an absolute lack of knowledge, i decline. I dont want to play with that speed of a toon/player in elite content where my aim is to kick some ass in a reasonable amount of time (and not just drag pikers)..sometimes I might WANT to take whatever and my piker tolerance is through the roof/ but usually not.

I can stand in the back of a party with my arcane archer and snipe the kill shot 75% of the time, mob after mob. Every two minutes when the hallway fills I get all the kills with manyshot as well. Killcount info is_not_valid. It shows absolutely nothing other than who got the last hit the most.

MyDDOing people for coal chamber is a clear cut case of pixelated paranoia. I could care less how people are geared, I want good players. MyDDO cannot tell me the one true indicator of success in this game, which is play quality. All it shows is gear when the player last logged - if youre lucky. Apparently ive been level 16 on two different toons for years now.

Gear does not reflect knowledge or the lack thereof. Ill take a good player on a first life toon over a TR in DT armor and shroud / hound / vod gear that cant follow directions.

Higher HP is not an indicator of play quality. When HP numbers became visable, everyone learned real quickly that higher HP totals make them look like a decent player in a group. Meanwhile, the barb who waited to take toughness is StunPwning® everything in its path, and the one who has toughness with ~70 more HP than the other guy is more of a burden on their healer.

The merrits of MyDDO as a screening tool - minimal to none. The fact that people still fall into this trap and try to justify it is more of an indicator than anything I could possibly learn from looking at a screenshot of what gear they had on last time they logged off.

[jeremyt]

Kill counts mean that you killed the most monsters.

It may also be a rough comparison of DPS, but that is only if the other players had roughly the same amount of time of weapons on target. (meaning if you zerged ahead and killed everything before anyone else got there, don't try to brag to me about how much your DPS is compared to everyone else in the back of the room.)

Whether you choose to equate kill counts to contributions of completing quests or not..... well,... what can I say? Your opinion and mine are obviously different.

as is your opinion on what a "piker" is as well.

Talon: When i play and Im not joining someone elses LFM/group I play my way. which usually means a nice speedy pace. In my opinion DPS includes getting there faster. If the highest DPS toon in the world is manned by a player who refuses to hit the W key they become the worst DPS toon and a piker. Getting there first/killing everything/completing quest IS more DPS/contribution. Your shadowy hints that this is not the case in your view and also hinting that its silly to think differently than you..is just plain SILLY.

And chai, I know kill count sniping. Its fun to run with friends yelling KILL STEAL! back and fourth ECT. what Im talking about is dominating quests. OBVIOUSLY dominating quests while others in the group are obviously doing quite the opposite. I have screenshots, can grab people from thelanis forums ect to boost my ego that your views of the kill count are in fact quite the rarity in a large sample size. Yes maybe a singular quest the kill count can be largely scewed, but get some quests chained together, the sample size grows, the counts become much more relevant of the total DPS (or if counting insta kills/total monster health erased) overall. And like I said in my extreme example (which i see very often) A melee with 300 kills is doing quite a bit more than a melee with 3 kills/ no way around it. Yes if one has 80 and the other 30 it could be lucky swings scewing results, but more often than not its the first example set not the latter that raises my eyebrows and starts influencing my actions.

Also I dont see the relavence in stating kill counts as being useless when your talking about tearing things down with manyshot. My ranger life as a AA/thousand stars elf was outstanding DPS. Measured in both kill counts and being able to hold boss aggro at will. So..your example to refute actually proves. You have a capable toon backed by a player skillfully directing its powerful abilities = kill counts and more DPS.

And chai: on your run down of myddo. I have to say, your myddo skills are either weak or your just choosing to disagree when you know how to read information from myddo. A lev 18 toon which had their myddo updated today with 3 separate +3 strength items, no fort and half a korthos set does not happen by accidentally logging out in 'around town gear'...if you cant gain clues from that info there will never be any source of info which you can use that you will not poke holes in. That information is readily available to a large percentage of toons (albeit usually past 2nd and 3rd TR it gets sketchy but at that point your not needing to screen them anyways) On first life toons it is generally (as in 70 or maybe even 80%+ of the time) up to date and accurate info. I am correcting for fact I can see a haggle item/or time pendant ect. Merrits of myddo as screening tool OUTSTANDING if you open your eyes. And gear DOES reflect knowledge or lack thereof as stated in the multiple stat items other obvious problems. If you cant see that...like i said either you dont know how to open myddo or your just wanting to disagree

[GermanicusMaximus]

But some classes ARE at the present time far more powerful AND self-sufficient than others. And all these classes can be found under the Spellcaster tab at character creation...

Toons which require more effort and skill to play SHOULD be more powerful. Balancing based upon total equality is the formula for a children's game. Balancing that takes into account player skill and effort is the formula for an adult's game.

We are on the path to a game based upon total equality, however. Right now, WoW panders to that market. When we reach parity with WoW, we will have entered the WoWjr phase of DDO: A game targetted to the same demographic as WoW, but with less content, fewer players, and a smaller reveneue stream. It will be the ideal game...for people perma-banned from WoW.

Its likely that someone will hang around to hear the echo of their footsteps as they run through Stormreach, but it won't be me.

[mobrien316]

Kill count can be used to prove someone was not piking, but other than that is really is only good for whatever "status" your group chooses to accord to whomever struck the last blow the most times.

If someone has 50% of the kills and is accused of piking at the entrance for the whole quest, the kill count should be sufficient to show they were an active player. Other than that, I've done epics on my rogue where I led the kill count but was not the first to engage in any combat throughout the entire quest. Does that mean I can brag about having the best DPS? No, it means that after the fighter engaged the enemy and I paused until the fighter established aggro before I joined in, I happened to strike the killing blow more often during that one particular quest. Big deal.


Regarding MyDDO... If they include a checkbox (with guaranteed accuracy) that reads, "Intelligent team player", it would be worth looking to see if that box is checked off. Without that info, who cares what gear someone is wearing? If they are good players their gear and build don't matter. If they are idiots, then their gear and build really don't matter.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Kill counts? Kill counts matter...when you solo kill something. If a bunch of people are working on a mob, who gets the kill is quasi-random, although someone who has the capacity to generate a large crit once the mob is close to dying has an outsized chance of getting credit for the kill.

[Khimberlhyte]

I recall seeing a 12/8 cleric/monk on Orien a few months ago who was soloing elite DA, and hard (I think) Weapons Shipment, then inviting people in for free chests. First life, no raid gear, and some gearing and stat choices that made me suspect that it was their first character in DDO. When I asked if (s)he had a Torc, the reply indicated they had no idea what it even was, and asked where to get it.

I wouldn't expect them to solo heal a raid or anything, but their build seemed to be working very well for them - based on what they were doing on a first life as a new player, they'd probably contribute more to a party than many, if not most conventionally built puggers out there.

To the OP: have fun with your build, and push the limits. It can likely do more than some of the nay-sayers on here could even imagine, although it will never be as optimized or capable at specific tasks as a pure build, or a more conventional splash build. It will always be a square peg in a round hole, but that's the price of being different.

[Diyon]

My advice to those with unique builds is make alot of your own LFMs and establish yourself as a known player on your server who handles their own, regardless of how screwed up the class + level split looks in the LFM window. There are several players I can name, some who still play and some who dont, who have done crazy things none of the cookie cutter builds have accomplished, and once they established themselves as a good player on their server, people dont even care what kind of toon they are running - they want the PLAYER in the group.

This. If you establish yourself as competent in lvl'ing, and smaller stuff, you become a lot less likely to be rejected in the bigger raids and such. You still may get people that question, or decide to take something they are more sure of, but that's the price you pay.

When I look at a weird multiclass, I look at whether it shows they may know what they are doing. For instance, 12 cleric/8 fighter shows potential foresight that in what you are getting at those split points. If I see a 10 cleric/10 fighter however, I start worrying. In this case, you are giving up Radiant servant II or Kensai II for what? A few 5th lvl spells that you can't rely on for damage or good DCs? An extra feat added on to the bunches you already had plus a higher BaB that doesn't matter because you are hopefully using divine power?

My 12 barb/6 rogue/2 fighter still gets rejected occasionally, but not very often.

[Thrudh]

Since the cat is out of the bag, I will address what his build is. He is NOT a battle cleric, at least not the way most people think of it. He is most correctly described as a self-healing tank with caster support (meaning he supports caster/healers with DVs and other things.

Does heal the rest of the group? A melee cleric who doesn't heal the rest of the group, just himself, IS a battle-cleric. A BAD battle-cleric that most people don't want in the group.

Good battle-clerics fight AND heal everybody.


He is built for durability and generally outlasts other melees, as he doesn't rely on the healer for healing (additionally, this takes pressure of the healer, since he doesn't need to be healed).

Most people want YOU to be the group healer.

[Thrudh]

If only I could check their inventories..

I can tell more about the usefullness of a player from the potions he is carrying than anything thing about his build...

Heh, good point.

[Thrudh]

In response to LOOON375:

I did not come here to play the victim, only to voice a concern. I did not come here to discuss my build, because I am satisfied with it and don't want to listen to people tell me how bad it is.

You can have whatever opinion you like of my build; I don't care. Therefore, I see no reason to discuss it.

But you DO want to discuss why your build gets declined from groups.

Clerics aren't heal-bots; but they are expected to heal SOMETIMES. If I saw a character with a cleric icon that only healed himself, I'd probably start declining him to my groups as well.


As an aside, I would never try to be the healer of the group or represent myself as one in any way. Nor would I want to take the place of a primary melee. But even if a group has the four primary roles (healer, tank/melee DPS, caster, trapper) that still leaves two spaces open to play with.

Do you only apply to groups that already have a cleric or FvS? If you're the first cleric/x to join the group, I'm pretty sure they expect you to heal the group.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Talon: When i play and Im not joining someone elses LFM/group I play my way. which usually means a nice speedy pace. In my opinion DPS includes getting there faster. If the highest DPS toon in the world is manned by a player who refuses to hit the W key they become the worst DPS toon and a piker. Getting there first/killing everything/completing quest IS more DPS/contribution. Your shadowy hints that this is not the case in your view and also hinting that its silly to think differently than you..is just plain SILLY.

And chai, I know kill count sniping. Its fun to run with friends yelling KILL STEAL! back and fourth ECT. what Im talking about is dominating quests. OBVIOUSLY dominating quests while others in the group are obviously doing quite the opposite. I have screenshots, can grab people from thelanis forums ect to boost my ego that your views of the kill count are in fact quite the rarity in a large sample size. Yes maybe a singular quest the kill count can be largely scewed, but get some quests chained together, the sample size grows, the counts become much more relevant of the total DPS (or if counting insta kills/total monster health erased) overall. And like I said in my extreme example (which i see very often) A melee with 300 kills is doing quite a bit more than a melee with 3 kills/ no way around it. Yes if one has 80 and the other 30 it could be lucky swings scewing results, but more often than not its the first example set not the latter that raises my eyebrows and starts influencing my actions.

Also I dont see the relavence in stating kill counts as being useless when your talking about tearing things down with manyshot. My ranger life as a AA/thousand stars elf was outstanding DPS. Measured in both kill counts and being able to hold boss aggro at will. So..your example to refute actually proves. You have a capable toon backed by a player skillfully directing its powerful abilities = kill counts and more DPS.

And chai: on your run down of myddo. I have to say, your myddo skills are either weak or your just choosing to disagree when you know how to read information from myddo. A lev 18 toon which had their myddo updated today with 3 separate +3 strength items, no fort and half a korthos set does not happen by accidentally logging out in 'around town gear'...if you cant gain clues from that info there will never be any source of info which you can use that you will not poke holes in. That information is readily available to a large percentage of toons (albeit usually past 2nd and 3rd TR it gets sketchy but at that point your not needing to screen them anyways) On first life toons it is generally (as in 70 or maybe even 80%+ of the time) up to date and accurate info. I am correcting for fact I can see a haggle item/or time pendant ect. Merrits of myddo as screening tool OUTSTANDING if you open your eyes. And gear DOES reflect knowledge or lack thereof as stated in the multiple stat items other obvious problems. If you cant see that...like i said either you dont know how to open myddo or your just wanting to disagree

The game is not a race.
and people who are not running as fast as you are not "pikers".

I admit that if you run ahead and kill everything, than you clearly did more DPS.. in that quest.... than anyone else.

a 6 Str naked halfling who zerges fast enough and kills everything and doesn't die... I suppose by some people's defination, is doing more DPS than the flower sniffer who is still back in the first room breaking barrels.

... but I wouldn't brag about it.

I missed the part about kill count being a contest.
and the losers being pikers....

But... play as you wish.


Now... I "do" compete in kill counts... sometimes.
On My Rogue for instance. (especially if I can outkill the arcanes in the group)
maybe when running with a friend.

and I certainly get a warm fuzzy when I get the highest...

But I don't consider the high kill count as meaning I did more work in the quest... or that other people were piking.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

But you DO want to discuss why your build gets declined from groups.

Clerics aren't heal-bots; but they are expected to heal SOMETIMES. If I saw a character with a cleric icon that only healed himself, I'd probably start declining him to my groups as well.



Do you only apply to groups that already have a cleric or FvS? If you're the first cleric/x to join the group, I'm pretty sure they expect you to heal the group.


These are good points.

not sure if the OP specifically mentioned these or not.

In my case, I rarely care is I have a healer or if he is healing me.
but...

Most people expect the guy with a cleric icon to heal them!
and if you join an LFM that does not already have a healer in it, there is a good chance they expect you to be healing.

But it goes back to what I mentioned before.... the Cleric class/icon is associated (for right or wrong) with healing other party members.

So, a half Cleric who tries to join an LFM presents some confusion on if they "can" or "will" heal people.

It might not even matter if they have other healers.
It might not even matter if they have every role they wish to have already covered.

Their mind is locked in this little "clerics are healers" box, and that is why they think you are useless to them.

I've got a couple multi-classed Clr/Fvs builds right now. I have purposely lvled up in a way that keep another class icon dominant, so that people do not see a Clr/Fvs icon and expect me to babysit them.

I do not join LFMs that do not already have a Clr or Fvs in the group.

But...
I still heal people!
(but then I heal them on any class I am playing that is capable of it)


You(OP) may do this... I do not know.
I am not saying any discrimination is right. In fact, I am totally on your side.
Build discimination sucks!

But.. you can't change the world. so you have to adapt.
Sadly, I have trashed some /Clr builds because of other people's expectations.

I also have a battle cleric, that I prefer to use all of my SP offensively instead of healing people.
But in reality.... I end up using a lot of SP healing others... even after joining a party with another Cleric.
I try to use consumables so I can use my SP for offensive spells.

barely helps.
People get beat up.... I feel I have to heal them. (I do it gladly enough, but it frustrates me that they need so much babysitting that I cannot use my SP the way I want to)

Hmmm...not much else to say...
(Try having 5 lvls of Wizard in your build and see how much confusion THAT causes! :eek: )

[LOOON375]

In response to LOOON375:

I did not come here to play the victim, only to voice a concern. I did not come here to discuss my build, because I am satisfied with it and don't want to listen to people tell me how bad it is.

You can have whatever opinion you like of my build; I don't care. Therefore, I see no reason to discuss it.

Please don't misconstrue my intentions or use partial quotes. Please read my first post. I don't think its tone is overly complaintive, though I am certainly not happy when I run into people who don't want to play with me.

Your comment is dismissive and does not speak to the topic I presented when I started this thread. There is no reason for you to post if you only wish to condemn me and my build.

I am in no way knocking or putting down your build as I am no expert in building toons. I even stated that I would accept your build into a group that I host. But If I were be looking for a healer, I would not take your build. That is my point and what I was referring too.

I have absolutely no problem with battle clerics. One of the best healers I have seen on Argo is a cleric/monk build.

You posed your OP as if you were wondering why you were being "discriminated" against, READ: Looks like a question or an inquiry. But then later you said you didn't want to discuss your build, even though it's possible that that could be the problem. Not necessarily your problem. Probably a problem with other simple minded individuals that play one dimensionally.

You seem to want to know the why of it, but are at the same time unwilling to discuss different possibilities.

[jeremyt]

The game is not a race.
and people who are not running as fast as you are not "pikers".

I admit that if you run ahead and kill everything, than you clearly did more DPS.. in that quest.... than anyone else.

a 6 Str naked halfling who zerges fast enough and kills everything and doesn't die... I suppose by some people's definition, is doing more DPS than the flower sniffer who is still back in the first room breaking barrels.

... but I wouldn't brag about it.


Try to refrain from saying the way i run is wrong. It isnt. Its obviously way different than you. But believe me, it is in no way wrong and its how I enjoy the game most. (most often anyways, i have flower sniffing nights as well)
But I also wouldnt care who joined my lfm for a flower sniffing session. At all, a fresh lev 1 elf rogue that didn't believe in traps can join my elite invaders if I posted the LFM expecting absolutely no contribution from pug slots. I dont think the OP has any problems getting into those groups either.

But you see, while you look down your nose at my playstyle, its when i post LFMs that obviously convey a high level of kicking buttness (BYOH/very fast pace/know it) is when friends and strangers alike it instantly I have expectations of level of involvement/toon and player ability. When I post an LFM asking for people that have the sole goal of really ripping apart a quest...and like your example that one dude is working on breaking his first barrel and the experienced players are finishing the quest...THAT IS A PIKER. He doesn't fit with the speed of my group, hence he doesn't contribute anything and really he should take greater mind to requirements/expectations that I almost always specifically state in my LFMs.



I missed the part about kill count being a contest.
and the losers being pikers....

But... play as you wish.


Same as comment above. Im not saying every player can/should or does fit with the playstyle I enjoy most. But if they are obviously not showing the same level of intensity/pace set forth by myself (and usually a few others) in my group. THEY ARE PIKING. Of course there are many levels and nuances to piking levels and strategies. Heck there is even strategy guides written dedicated to the art of piking.




Now... I "do" compete in kill counts... sometimes.
On My Rogue for instance. (especially if I can outkill the arcanes in the group)
maybe when running with a friend.

and I certainly get a warm fuzzy when I get the highest...

But I don't consider the high kill count as meaning I did more work in the quest... or that other people were piking.

Well, consider when you have fun competing for kills with your rogue. Now imagine that was more of a norm than a rarity. That is my preference. I show up to a quest trying to be the most prepared I can, to bust it out fastest/bestest I can. In these LFMs (which honestly I am much more likely to solo/duo with a friend/post in channel only rather than go through grief of posting for pugs which usually dont work out so smooth) I expect people to come that have a like mind. since i STATED IT in the LFM. Its these LFMs that I wouldn't take a junky geared/poorly built toon played by a stranger I've never ran with. Its called saving myself the grief and keeping the spot open for someone that can/is willing to contribute at the pace I want to run.

[EpiKagEMO]

:)

Its not just you. but usually, khyber is nicer on multiclasses, as i have experienced, since the tukaw, the most fancy build(since it's spellsword) was born in khyber.

Some reasons may be that they people that reject you think, "Oh he's not pure, he's a noob and can't do anything!" or the more "Pro" side to it "hmm... i don't think this will be a good toon on my team..." *shrug*
Its more player than build.

If they reject you next time, it's better off, since they missed a great opportunity.

[shores11]

Since the cat is out of the bag, I will address what his build is. He is NOT a battle cleric, at least not the way most people think of it. He is most correctly described as a self-healing tank with caster support (meaning he supports caster/healers with DVs and other things.

He is built for durability and generally outlasts other melees, as he doesn't rely on the healer for healing (additionally, this takes pressure of the healer, since he doesn't need to be healed). I will freely admit that his DPS is not exceptional, but it's better than you might think. He tops the 400 HP range easily and will have a total AC of 52 when completely done, and that is a static AC. While I don't think that is extremely high, I don't think it's anything to sneeze at, either. Finally, he has a lot of DVs and they regen. It makes a difference on those very long, elite quests. All in all, he pulls his weight and adds value to any party.

This response is ONLY my opinion.

To address some of your points first.
1) To say your build is not a battle cleric may be what you want to call him but he is exactly by the way you describe him what most players call a battle cleric.
2) Many players say these builds takes pressure off of the party's healers but that is not really so is it. Especially at end game most healers worth their salt is using area effect healing a large percentage of the time.

In Summary:
I know many players that have built characters like yours and I have as well. They can be a dominating force in a party at low and mid-level (up to 14-15) as well as be a good solo character even at end game. However when a party is put together at end game and the LFM is looking for a cleric or FvS they are not looking for a character with your build. Based on that alone you are discriminated against on that point. On another point you yourself said it "I will freely admit that his DPS is not exceptional, but it's better than you might think" which means that most barbarians, fighters, paladins, rangers, monks, rogues will out DPS him.

Question - So why on earth would a party take a character that is a part time cleric/part time melee when they can have a full time cleric with a full time melee?
Answer - They would not.

For solo'ing at end game you might have a good character but for a party at end game for most party's you do not.

[gerardIII]

Hello out there!

I just want to address an issue that I have been experiencing in my past few years playing DDO: build discrimination (for lack of a better term).

I have a toon that is a non-traditional build that constantly gets rejected by groups (especially Shroud) for no other reason than that they don't like it. Now, I have played this toon up to cap and it is a very successful and useful build. It has never been a drag on any party that has let me join. On the contrary, I often end up the last man standing and saving the party and it especially shines in long quests like Coal Chamber.

I have two thoughts for this post. First is a question: Are others out there also experiencing this and frustrated by it or is it just me? Second is a request: I hope people who read this post would spread a feeling of acceptance for odd builds; afterall, this is just a game and people should be able to play it the way they want without being put down just because their build isn't traditional.

Thanks!

This guy (http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/lavadiver/) made it to lvl 20 so stop complaining.
Look at the 1st life of this guy (http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/witchdoktor/) too.

[holwic]

Then u are discriminated because you deserve to be :o
You dun have to listen to people here, and u will continue to be discriminated.
Blame no one but yourself :cool::cool:


Clarification edit : when I start a group, I do take weird builds :rolleyes: as long as it's not something like 10wiz/10sorc or 10fvs/10clr



In response to LOOON375:

I did not come here to play the victim, only to voice a concern. I did not come here to discuss my build, because I am satisfied with it and don't want to listen to people tell me how bad it is.

You can have whatever opinion you like of my build; I don't care. Therefore, I see no reason to discuss it.

Please don't misconstrue my intentions or use partial quotes. Please read my first post. I don't think its tone is overly complaintive, though I am certainly not happy when I run into people who don't want to play with me.

Your comment is dismissive and does not speak to the topic I presented when I started this thread. There is no reason for you to post if you only wish to condemn me and my build.

Additionally, I know why people "would do such a thing": they take the game so seriously that they exclude any build that they aren't sure of in the (false) hope of ensuring success.

As an aside, I would never try to be the healer of the group or represent myself as one in any way. Nor would I want to take the place of a primary melee. But even if a group has the four primary roles (healer, tank/melee DPS, caster, trapper) that still leaves two spaces open to play with.

Finally, using this build I have outlived and outlasted melees with 100+ HP more than me; I kid you not. This is because the self healing means I effectively have well over 1200 HP before the healer ever has to heal me. Even if I get hit, I can take it and keep going.

[Memek]

However when a party is put together at end game and the LFM is looking for a cleric or FvS they are not looking for a character with your build.
I dont think the OP meant that he was applying as a healer.


Based on that alone you are discriminated against on that point. On another point you yourself said it "I will freely admit that his DPS is not exceptional, but it's better than you might think" which means that most barbarians, fighters, paladins, rangers, monks, rogues will out DPS him. [/COLOR]
With proper feats and enhancements, such a Cleric will do about as much DPS as a Defender Fighter in DPS mode.
The Fighter gets Haste Boost 4, 10% double strike, +2 attack and dmg from stance and maybe a bit extra from Weapon Spec if he takes it.
The Cleric 12/Fighter 8 gets Haste Boost 3, +3 attack and dmg from Divine Power (/Favor?) and Divine Punishment which should comfortably close the gap to the Fighter's slightly higher melee DPS. And Divine Might if he has it. Furthermore he has an aura, can burst and toss a Heal if need be.

Of course a Defender will make a better main tank, but for hitting stuff in the back you're better off with the Cleric. He does similar DPS, has an aura ticking and isnt tempted to turn on +150% hate gen to gain +2/+2.


Now, on the other side the OP calls himself a "tank" so im not overly convinced that he actually has DPS feats and enhancements (SnB?). But thats a different story and doesnt have anything to do with the level split.


OP, you're being rejected since many players believe that a character that shows the Cleric icon cannot hit anything at all, ever; and that DPS output scales linearly with how many melee levels you have.

[shores11]

I dont think the OP meant that he was applying as a healer.


You are correct he did not. But my point is that end game party's are looking for healers not a hybrid type character.

[akiraproject24]

People always have a preconcieved notions of what a character is and what it can do but in most cases what it cant do...build, class, guild...people will always judge and misjudge...I know Ive been guilty of it in the past and have also been victim...for example an epic 6 man with a caster and rogue that has caster and rogue crossed off and wont take them..I laugh MOST casters and assassins will mow thru those mobs faster than any barb or fighter will... literally mow...therefore just know that you will be judged before you ever have a chance...and there are a lot of GAMERS that think they know it all but really have no clue what their close mindedness is causing them to miss...rant off...I wish you the best

[Nubicus]

Finally, using this build I have outlived and outlasted melees with 100+ HP more than me; I kid you not. This is because the self healing means I effectively have well over 1200 HP before the healer ever has to heal me. Even if I get hit, I can take it and keep going.

Look, I want to make sure this is constructive when I say this, but your self healing ability in this case is a detriment to the party. You point out that you're the last man standing during party wipes, and I can see that, but that's not because you're build is inherently better than a non-self healing melee.

Some things to consider:
-Every time you are healing yourself you are not attacking.
-With a 52 ac, that means you're still getting hit a lot.
-Your BAB is 16, considering you have to spread out the build points quite a bit, I don't see it being very high, which means when you are attacking, you're not hitting as much as a properly built Melee.

This toon in a line of a melee's is among the reasons quests fail. Monsters are not being brought down quick enough, which is taxing a parties proper healer to keep the tanks/dps up. So while you're keeping yourself up with self heals, other people are dying because the beasties are still standing, and the healers's cool downs and blue bar are aching.

Last Man Standing is not an effective position within a party.

Anyone can build to be a the last man standing in the quest, but the side effects of that, is that you're hurting your party's ability to complete. So you get rejected and rightfully so. A lot of people talk about their disgust with cookie cutter builds and gear, but I assure you, a party with well built 'cookie cutters' who serve the roles the classes were designed to fill, will complete more often then a party with weak chains such as 12cleric/8fighter. Toons like that are the reason people have to suck down pots on normal shrouds, or fail at the most basic of quests.

But, I'm not going to lecture you on changing your build. You pay for your account, not me. Play whatever you would like, have fun, enjoy it. Just don't post in the forums that you're being discriminated against because other people, who are paying for their own accounts, don't want to risk their time, fun, and completion on a build which is less effective than a pure or more effective build. If you like the idea of a melee cleric, I would suggest looking at building a clonk, which has far more synergy than 8 levels of fighter and 12 cleric. Or consider a paladin or favored soul.

[Diyon]

-Your BAB is 16, considering you have to spread out the build points quite a bit, I don't see it being very high, which means when you are attacking, you're not hitting as much as a properly built Melee.

Small note, but, divine power spell. Their BAB is 20.

[Nubicus]

Small note, but, divine power spell. Their BAB is 20.

You're totally right.

Let me just fix this portion

Some things to consider:
-Every time you are healing yourself you are not attacking.
-With a 52 ac, that means you're still getting hit a lot.
-Your BAB is 16, considering you have to spread out the build points quite a bit, I don't see it being very high, which means when you are attacking, you're not hitting as much as a properly built Melee.
-You have to cast a spell every 1 minute 12 seconds to get your BaB high enough just to get the swings in to deal damage.

[assimilateur]

being discriminated against because other people, who are paying for their own accounts, don't want to risk their time, fun, and completion

That may indeed be the crux of the issue: having a problem with risking your oh-so-valuable time could be an indication of either taking this game too seriously, or yourself, or both.

I'm not saying it's unreasonable to expect anything from others. Some understandable expectations are being a team player and making an effort, but having an optimized build usually isn't on that list. And this is not just a consideration of courtesy and indulgence, but also related to the fact that most of this game can be beaten by taking the first five to apply (the rest is usually first four plus one healer, the latter being a role the original poster admittedly cannot fill).

[Enoach]

Pure classes are easier for outsiders to understand what they can/cannot contribute

Example - if you accept a level 20 Fighter there is reasonable expectation that they know how to swing a weapon and kill stuff using said weapon. They are not expected to be able to Cast Spell, Buffs with songs or do other Feats of Wonder.

When multi-classing there is one person that knows what your character can actually do, and that is you as the builder (hopefully anyway). However, there are groups of people that have a deeper understanding of building characters (I'm not talking about the flavor of the week crowds, I'm talking the people that have spent time analyzing and weighing build options) These people will have an understanding of what your character is capable of.

I've run with some odd builds in my time playing DDO and no matter how odd it seems, the true measure of it's effectiveness is watching the players performance. I've played along side both well run and poorly run Tuka builds as an example to see this point ground in that it is the player and not the character build that brings the highest percentage of effectiveness.

Deep multi-class builds bear the most burden in "Proving" themselves. Many at End Game, don't understand the trade-offs and only see that you don't have ability X (only attainable with 18 levels of said class), or able to contribute Y. While your character is more flexible then most in the role it can play in a party, it's contribution may be more like a penny in a Jar of silver dollars.

The best way to get yourself know is to put up your own LFMs and run the quests.

Personally I don't turn down someone from an LFM based on their level distributions - I have based on knowing how they play, having experience with them prior.

[Nubicus]

That may indeed be the crux of the issue: having a problem with risking your oh-so-valuable time could be an indication of either taking this game too seriously, or yourself, or both.

If I have 2 hours a day to work on my hobby between work, home, etc., when I log on I want to succeed, not repeat a quest several times because someone had some whacky build. It's not taking the game to seriously, it's called having fun. Wiping in a quest is not fun for me, especially if it could have been avoided by clicking decline.

[jeremyt]

That may indeed be the crux of the issue: having a problem with risking your oh-so-valuable time could be an indication of either taking this game too seriously, or yourself, or both.


Or maybe you need to take a step back and not be condescending to people that want to play with like minded folks, you do note he said fun as well. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean its wrong or even not as good as your views.

[assimilateur]

It's not taking the game too seriously, it's called having fun. Wiping in a quest is not fun for me, especially if it could have been avoided by clicking decline.

Of course that's why I said something about taking yourself too seriously, though calling it conceitedness or elitism would perhaps be more to the point.

I know wipes can be frustrating but not giving the guy a chance based on as tenuous and easily-misleading data as their class composition is hardly the height of courtesy in most situations. I say most because declining half a cleric when advertising for a healer would probably be different.



Or maybe you need to take a step back and not be condescending to people that want to play with like minded folks, you do note he said fun as well. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it's wrong or even not as good as your views.

The impression I get about people who seemingly auto-decline characters with nonstandard class compositions, or "filter" or whatever, is one of looking down on players who don't live up to their lofty standards. I am merely criticizing the lacking courtesy, indulgence, team-spirit, generosity, etc. of this kind of behavior in a non-competitive game.

[Letza]

This guy (http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/lavadiver/) made it to lvl 20 so stop complaining.
Look at the 1st life of this guy (http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/witchdoktor/) too.

I'll bet my paycheck the second guy 2X +5 LRed the 10 sorc levels, and originally capped as a FVS

[Nubicus]

though calling it conceitedness or elitism would perhaps be more to the point.

I'm really getting tired of seeing the phrase elitist on the boards. It's sprouting up on these forums a lot lately, and it's being thrown around too freely. I think it's about time we put it to bed.

I could quote the same (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=368365), old (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=369118) posts, over and over again trying to show some examples of what I'm talking about. But those just don't settle in some peoples heads.

I have goals X, Y, Z that I want to accomplish to have fun. Under my terms of service, I am under no obligation to carry weak builds/players or instruct new players to achieve X, Y, Z. So, when I'm considering how I'm going to accomplish these tasks, I'm going to gather people around me I know can accomplish said tasks, because that's the most expedient route. That doesn't mean I'm an elitist. That doesn't mean anyone in this game, no matter the guild level or frds or esos count, is an elitist. It just means they have goals they want to achieve in the most expedient fashion, with people they know they are going to enjoy running with.

I'm sick of those of us who don't want to 'give this build a chance' or 'carry this weak build to the finish line' being called elitists. I'm not calling people noobs or trying to make players cry because their level 10 Artificer has 90 hitpoints. We all have to start out somewhere, I get that. This also doesn't mean I'm not going to help out some new players every now and then. But those times are going to be on my own terms.

But I certainly wasn't forced on some group of end game players so that they could carry me around because my first toon was junk. When they happened to take me in and I became one of the 10 Percenters, I took my licks and I learned to be better. I don't raise my fist at the sky and cry foul on the forums because some guys who wanted to complete a Hard shroud during the dark days of killer blades didn't accept one of toons into the party. Heck, I don't even consider myself a good player. I have plenty of shards, seals, and scrolls, but not one piece of epic gear I didn't farm out of a challenge. But now that I'm a middling player, I want to play with better people on more difficult content. That's how I have fun.

Elitist is a term used by people who don't get to party with people they consider elitist.

[assimilateur]

I think it's about time we put it to bed.

That simply isn't going to happen as long as the attitude thus described remains common enough to be noticeable.



Under my terms of service, I am under no obligation to carry weak builds/players or instruct new players to achieve X, Y, Z.

And when I am talking about courtesy I am talking about courtesy, whereas bringing law or terms of service into it is completely unrelated. Treating my criticism of a person's lack of indulgence towards those they conceive as ill-prepared as implying they have a positive duty to carry them is a flagrant misunderstanding of my position. I didn't even say it was always unreasonable either, but "filtering" based on the guy's class composition in cases other than when you need a specific role filled and it's the last person to apply, or "filtering" for raids on normal or most at-level elite quests is what I'm criticizing here. And while declining "half a cleric" is not quite the same as putting "don't be a dungeon scaler" or "TR only" in the LFM, it is in the same ballpark.



Elitist is a term used by people who don't get to party with people they consider elitist.

Insulting the other party like that you only embarrass yourself.

[Nubicus]

Insulting the other party like that you only embarrass yourself.

I'm sorry if that struck too close for you.

[assimilateur]

I'm sorry if that struck too close for you.

The wit on you, I swear...


I probably shouldn't dignify as cringe-worthy a comment with a serious response, but here goes: I don't join LFMs with "filtering" BS in the description on principle, so I guess I have relatively little opportunity to find out. But on the occasions I play with people from guilds notorious for their perceived elitism there aren't any problems. Now I don't know whether this is because their bark on the forums is worse than their bite in the game, or because they really have nothing to complain about.

And I won't think less about someone for constructive criticism and whatnot, but if they declined me for having an "unorthodox" class makeup (doesn't apply to any of my toons though, guess I'm not adventurous enough) that would be another story.

[t0r012]

I agree that the OPs build should have no bearing on this discussion.
problem is I see it from a different perspective. If a guy wants to start and LFM he is the king. doesn't matter if he doesn;t want to take the pimped out completionist eSOS , eClaw set wearing, ect, ect, ect UBER killer in to a normal shroud, he doesn't have to.

It is his group, he is the king.
----------------------------

sorry you feel rejected cause of your off beaten path build , that is part of the price you pay to play for your own fun , to your own drummer.

Come hit my shroud LFM and I'll take you warts an all but that is me not the guy that rejected you. It is his party so his call.

=======

its good to be da king

[Doomcrew]

An interesting debate, one side chooses to play the game in a manner that they
find fun.

But then feel put out when the other side chooses to play in a manner that
they find fun.

Virtual world, meet real life.

[Letza]

An interesting debate, one side chooses to play the game in a manner that they
find fun.

But then feel put out when the other side chooses to play in a manner that
they find fun.

Virtual world, meet real life.

Very good point, people trying to push their beliefs on others, kind of sounds like some other groups in the real world...

[assimilateur]

Very good point, people trying to push their beliefs on others, kind of sounds like some other groups in the real world...

Discussing something and criticizing the opposition is not "pushing one's beliefs on others" by any stretch of the imagination. The phrasing you use could serve to describe someone lobbying to make inclusive LFMs mandatory and exclusive ones bannable, but that is so obviously not the case here that I can barely keep a straight face while typing this.

[Kysean]

I'll bet my paycheck the second guy 2X +5 LRed the 10 sorc levels, and originally capped as a FVS
I have bad news for you. That 10 fvs/10 sorc capped that way, no LR involved. Now hand over that paycheck please. :)

[Letza]

Discussing something and criticizing the opposition is not "pushing one's beliefs on others" by any stretch of the imagination. The phrasing you use could serve to describe someone lobbying to make inclusive LFMs mandatory and exclusive ones bannable, but that is so obviously not the case here that I can barely keep a straight face while typing this.

From reading these I'm getting the impression that some are pushing people to believe their ideas.

And you posting that is also trying to get me to change my idea :P

[gerardIII]

I'll bet my paycheck the second guy 2X +5 LRed the 10 sorc levels, and originally capped as a FVS


No he didn't LR, I did Vale with him when he was lvl 16 like a year ago, that's why I remembered his name.

How much money do you earn?

[assimilateur]

And you posting that is also trying to get me to change my idea :P

Yes, that's what having a discussion is generally about. One of the goals is usually to sway minds, but also (hopefully, assuming you have an open mind) to learn something and thus possibly to change your own mind if the opposition's arguments are persuasive. Why do I have to spell out the obvious here?

Terming this "pushing one's beliefs on others" is still ludicrous though. It could be ignored if I could just write it off as hyperbole, but I'm being compared to some unnamed "groups in real life" and I resent what that implies.

[Khurse]

I have two thoughts for this post. First is a question: Are others out there also experiencing this and frustrated by it or is it just me? Second is a request: I hope people who read this post would spread a feeling of acceptance for odd builds; afterall, this is just a game and people should be able to play it the way they want without being put down just because their build isn't traditional.

Thanks!


I also have two thoughts, both expressed before, but I'm bored so...
1) Of course there are other people. Look around the forums, there are dozens if not hundreds of these "OMG whyz are people so mean to me and won't let me play how I want" threads and variations thereof.

2) This is just a game, and people should be allowed to play how they want. This includes not taking a chance on your build,wanting a build that does more DPS in their group, or anything else.

3) (Yeah I can't count) As has been mentioned, you are free to start your own groups. Become the bright shining light of whatever server you're on, taking the outcasts and misfits and crushing all the raids are more difficult quests in the game. <-- This is probably the best solution. Instead of coming here and questioning why it is that people don't take you in their groups. Start your own.

[Candela90]

Well I dont really understand this.... Mayber Im elitist yerk, but I highly doubt it.

Is it bad that I want to have fun and complete challenge, and if X people applies I take those who seems to be the best?
Is it weird that for me FUN doesnt mean 5(or 11 in raids) people who can be one-shooted besides me?
Is it unwise to choose person who will help mine teram the most?


Yeah... I find it idiotic that for shroud normal people post lfms like 500> hp etc.... and tell you to link your min2...
On those quest u just accept first 9/10 + 1/2 divines.

But for epics?
I would probably never accept sorc/wizz, sorc/fvs or sorc/barb.... and probably not any 10/10...
Im still understanding enough to take in wizz/fighter in meleeing zombie form... ;p

[mobrien316]

Regarding the idea that some people seem to want to play how they want while getting upset that others want to play as they want:

Building a character with a non-standard class split is neither foolish nor exceptionally intelligent. A split matters far less than the answer to the question "Can you play?" If the player is a good player his build is likely irrelevant. If he can't play then it really doesn't matter what his build or class split is.


However...

Posting an LFM and excluding certain class splits when all you know about the person is their class split is foolish. If all you can see is their class split you don't know if they can play or not. Their skill at playing is the only thing that matters, not their HP total or their class split.

People are of course free to display their prejudices in any way they like. It is their LFM and they are free to place whatever restrictions on it they think make sense. Excluding certain characters because you have played with them before and you know they are idiots makes perfect sense. Looking at a class split or a HP total and excluding someone without having any idea if they can play or not is foolish.

[Diyon]

But for epics?
I would probably never accept sorc/wizz, sorc/fvs or sorc/barb.... and probably not any 10/10...
Im still understanding enough to take in wizz/fighter in meleeing zombie form... ;p

I've seen a pretty awesomely done wraith form berserker.

[Tyraelus]

You have every right to play whatever build you want and the leaders have every right to decline you.
A shroud group that has a few weird builds at the start fills much slower and will generally attract lower quality players. So if you have a date back in Meridia in 15 minutes, weird builds are not the way to go.

[Cyr]

That may indeed be the crux of the issue: having a problem with risking your oh-so-valuable time could be an indication of either taking this game too seriously, or yourself, or both.


It is everyones right when forming a group to decide what is and is not important to them.

Some things are more silly then others, but complaining because someone values their own time...wow that is just wow...

That is almost the definition of entitled, when you believe that others have to ingore their own priorities for your own.

[assimilateur]

It is everyone's right when forming a group to decide what is and is not important to them.

I'm actually embarrassed to have to spell this out for you (though you're actually not the first person in this thread to be confused on this), but when talking about courtesy the question of rights never comes up. If I called for anyone to be banned for what I perceive as elitism that would be relevant, whereas I only said that I consider their position unreasonable and behavior often discourteous. It's beyond me how this distinction isn't clear to some people.

And regarding entitlement, I feel like that sentiment applies to whoever feels like non-cookie cutter builds, characters with less than an arbitrary number of hit points, people who don't know the quest well, etc., aren't good enough for their groups more than it applies to my side. Again, I don't say anyone has to do anything, just that this whole "filtering" business is silly and unfair more often than not.

[Cyr]

I'm actually embarrassed to have to spell this out for you (though you're actually not the first person in this thread to be confused on this), but when talking about courtesy the question of rights never comes up. If I called for anyone to be banned for what I perceive as elitism that would be relevant, whereas I only said that I consider their position unreasonable and behavior often discourteous. It's beyond me how this distinction isn't clear to some people.

And regarding entitlement, I feel like that sentiment applies to whoever feels like non-cookie cutter builds, characters with less than an arbitrary number of hit points, people who don't know the quest well, etc., aren't good enough for their groups more than it applies to my side. Again, I don't say anyone has to do anything, just that this whole "filtering" business is silly and unfair more often than not.

Yeah that sounds entitled to me.

Just because you don't want people banned from the game for something has little bearing on being entitled.

You are stating that people are being unreasonable by not ignoring their own priorities and adopting your own in parties they are forming. Do you also go over to people's houses and stay as late as you want and tell them that their own time is not important and they are taking themselves too seriously when they try nudging you towards the door?

[Zyerz]

I would only doubt someones build when they make something along the lines of:

Wizzy with sorc splash

6 sorc with 2 fighter levels, 14 str, 16 cha and dump Con, with full plate, tower shield and bastar sword, wondering why he gets spell failure.

Someone with monk levels wearing full plate and a shield, stating they took monk level for evasion and AC, and arguing with me saying I'm wrong when I say evasion only works on light armor and robes.

When someone has cleric +fvs + sorc build.

Etc...

If they are new players, I don't mind giving them advice on their builds, aftr all, a lot of people start DDO without any knowledge on how D&D works. I started out like that. But if its a Lv 12+ 32 pt build character, I'm not even gonna bother. I'll politely decline.

[Nubicus]

[QUOTE=cyr]It is everyone's right when forming a group to decide what is and is not important to them.

'
i c wut u did thar




That is almost the definition of entitled, when you believe that others have to ingore their own priorities for your own.

I agree with this statement.

[assimilateur]

Just because you don't want people banned from the game for something has little bearing on being entitled.

I don't agree but even if that were the case, bringing rights into this is a ridiculous misunderstanding of my position.



Do you also go over to people's houses and stay as late as you want and tell them that their own time is not important and they are taking themselves too seriously when they try nudging you towards the door?

I see what you're trying to do with this comparison, but lofty requirements in group admissions are hardly even in the same ballpark as this. And as I said earlier I'm not criticizing group leaders for having any sort of requirements.

When I criticize a person for elitism it's not because they don't take half a cleric for a raid healer spot, it's when they decline that sort of character for a "filler" spot as was implied by more than one poster here, or when they put "know it" in the LFM because a first-timer possibly slowing them down by a couple of minutes is too much of an imposition, or when they demand a 350 hit point minimum for doing elite Gianthold quest (I wish I was making the last one up).

Maybe it sounds like I'm making a big deal out of this, so to be fair let me clarify this a bit: yes, I think a little less of a person for elitist shenanigans and won't join LFMs that indicate unreasonable "filtering"; no, that does not mean they go on a list of people I won't group with (in fact I don't have such a list). Even then it has crossed my mind that I am being a bit intolerant of them, but the way I see it I'm just being intolerant of intolerance.



'
i c wut u did thar

Funny. I thought earlier that this person may have gotten lost on their way to 4chan.

[Cyr]

[QUOTE=assimilateur;4432297]

'
i c wut u did thar





I agree with this statement.

lol, I didn't notice that.

Yeah, I do make mistakes when posting. I tend to find it a little silly to correct minor posting errors when the meaning of a post is still clear, but to each their own. It's not like their are forum guildlines about that sort of thing after all :)

[assimilateur]

Yeah, I do make mistakes when posting.

We all do, nothing wrong with that. I just hope that when I make mistakes others will show me the same courtesy and correct them; this is how we learn and stay attentive.


I tend to find it a little silly to correct minor posting errors when the meaning of a post is still clear, but to each their own. It's not like there are forum guidelines about that sort of thing after all :)

You conveniently ignored how the rules specifically mention flaming people for making mistakes. Now is pointing something out flaming? Or do you actually have to insult the person for it to be flaming? An insult is not even remotely implied in a mere correction, but of course if your only goal is to make the other side look bad you are going to be as uncharitable in interpreting their posts as possible; I've come to expect nothing less, I'm disappointed to say.

[Letza]

No he didn't LR, I did Vale with him when he was lvl 16 like a year ago, that's why I remembered his name.

How much money do you earn?

-30k a year, college student, so you actually owe me money.

[Eladiun]

The only solution I see is server wide diversity training followed by a big camp fire in the vale where everyone sings Kumbaya and does trust falls.

[Letza]

The only solution I see is server wide diversity training followed by a big camp fire in the vale where everyone sings Kumbaya and does trust falls.

That sounds like fun, but I'll have to pass. :P

[Diyon]

The only solution I see is server wide diversity training followed by a big camp fire in the vale where everyone sings Kumbaya and does trust falls.

I'd cast grease.

[jeremyt]

I don't agree but even if that were the case, bringing rights into this is a ridiculous misunderstanding of my position.




I see what you're trying to do with this comparison, but lofty requirements in group admissions are hardly even in the same ballpark as this. And as I said earlier I'm not criticizing group leaders for having any sort of requirements.

When I criticize a person for elitism it's not because they don't take half a cleric for a raid healer spot, it's when they decline that sort of character for a "filler" spot as was implied by more than one poster here, or when they put "know it" in the LFM because a first-timer possibly slowing them down by a couple of minutes is too much of an imposition, or when they demand a 350 hit point minimum for doing elite Gianthold quest (I wish I was making the last one up).

Maybe it sounds like I'm making a big deal out of this, so to be fair let me clarify this a bit: yes, I think a little less of a person for elitist shenanigans and won't join LFMs that indicate unreasonable "filtering"; no, that does not mean they go on a list of people I won't group with (in fact I don't have such a list). Even then it has crossed my mind that I am being a bit intolerant of them, but the way I see it I'm just being intolerant of intolerance.




Funny. I thought earlier that this person may have gotten lost on their way to 4chan.

For one wanting to educate you really have a close mind to any other view.

On the other side we have people that have put countless hours into making toons play the type of play we want to play, which is high performance, not dinging, properly geared/prepared for quest. And your saying the dude with the obviously under performing setup should be entitled to our high performance runs or we are being mean/not courteous? What about THEY are being mean/ect by feeling ENTITLED (your not reading previous posts saying such is concerning) to spots in a group in which they would not contribute? What if my groups i do not wish to have ANY filler spots but rather 6 people of at least somewhat equal capability/ability/gearing/preparedness to run with? Its now soley on my shoulders for being a a-hole for not wanting to drag a newb or flavor build with me through quests? screw that, when i run my flavor builds (which i have several) I A: try my absolute best to perform better than my build should and B: do NOT feel entitled to ride ANYONE'S coattails ESPECIALLY people I DON'T KNOW. (caps for emphasis) If I dont know a quest, I dont join a random pug and expect them to take the time to teach me, bullox to anyone who EXPECTS this of strangers. LEARN THE DANG THING YOURSELF OR WITH FRIENDS!

[assimilateur]

(...)

I will reiterate one final time that the tolerance I advocate isn't infinite. There are limits even when it comes to build considerations or equipment, but especially when it comes to communication and team play.

Thus I have no quarrel with the person who requires things like boss beaters for the raids they apply to or boots for ToD, or for the people who join them to understand English (or maybe another language they specify in the LFM). But I stand by my position that basically requiring power-gaming from random strangers (and I give them a pass on this in content that is actually difficult) - which scoffing at "substandard" class splits like the original poster's implies - does not foster a friendly atmosphere. It leads to casual players being afraid to join groups lest people "blacklist" them for trivial nonsense like costing the guys with wings 10% base XP.

[ThePrincipal]

Please dont hate on my ranger/wizard/rogue that I just rolled up on Argo... it's da uberest nooblet eva.

[baii]

get to know more ppl, it is who you are that get you into groups , not what your toon is.

[Dagolar]

Hello out there!

I just want to address an issue that I have been experiencing in my past few years playing DDO: build discrimination (for lack of a better term).

I have a toon that is a non-traditional build that constantly gets rejected by groups (especially Shroud) for no other reason than that they don't like it. Now, I have played this toon up to cap and it is a very successful and useful build. It has never been a drag on any party that has let me join. On the contrary, I often end up the last man standing and saving the party and it especially shines in long quests like Coal Chamber.

I have two thoughts for this post. First is a question: Are others out there also experiencing this and frustrated by it or is it just me? Second is a request: I hope people who read this post would spread a feeling of acceptance for odd builds; afterall, this is just a game and people should be able to play it the way they want without being put down just because their build isn't traditional.

Thanks!

I almost entirely play concept builds, yet I only infrequently have such problems- though, when they do occur, they're troublesome: Not for the feelings behind them, which are understandable, but for the attitudes that oft come with.

As with most things in DDO, it all comes down to which groups/guilds you end up running with most frequently (and your luck with PUGs).

[Mathermune]

I'd cast grease.

Not next to the camp fire!!!!



First five to hit the LFM and go, or first four and a pocket cleric if I don't run the quest very often and no-one can provide hjealz

[Diyon]

Not next to the camp fire!!!!

ESPECIALLY next to the camp fire!

[Habreno]

Love joining groups with my pure 20 Cleric.

Love their reaction when the mobs implode. They love it.

REALLY love their reaction when I swing on the back of the boss. They have this utter look of confusion on their face.

2 minutes later, when I have the boss's aggro through DP and melee, they start to really wonder what all this Cleric is about.


And sometimes, when they see my HP not dropping when tanking in Hound, they *really* wonder. Or being swung at by Sully, and just... standing there.



All this while healing them and keeping them alive.




Simplified version: You cannot judge a build by its class split. Some of the most successful builds are the weirdest. Such as my pure Cleric that instakills while meleeing. Or the 13/6/1 Rogue/Fighter/Barbarian... who's tanking VoD (not a WF, either)

Good luck. Be proud of your creations. For they are your successes.