What happened to the Tor dragons?

[sirgog]

Ran Tor elite at-level in a very solid group today and noticed something odd (other than the bugged trap radius which predictably wiped us in blue and led to us not attempting black).

The dragons hit a hell of a lot harder than the last time I ran it elite (several lives ago), and also seem to have significantly more hitpoints.

Melees were being hit for well over 100 by the blue dragon, including one 121 point hit that was not a critical nor a sneak attack and was on a 100% fortification target. Several other hits were noticed too - 115, and a monk took 91 through Earth Stance 3. I remember them previously hitting for ~65 a swing (although I do remember their breath being a potential one-shot kill on squishies).

This was with five-player dungeon scaling in effect, so presumably we were suffering about 103-105% incoming damage.



Were the elite dragons accidentally (or deliberately) given the attack profiles of the made-but-never-officially-released epic versions?


Edit: I am not complaining. Lots of fun was had in the successful downing of White and the failed attempt on Blue. It is refreshing to just get your behind handed to you in a quest for once and to just have to give up for the day - something that hasn't really happened to me since Epic Offering of Blood first came out (it was a lot harder then).

[rodallec]

About a fortnight ago in there on elite full party i think, acid traps in black dragon room hit for 350~ or something stupid. cant remember how hard the dragons hit us for though.
They should just make tor epic. one epic chest per dragon.

[xveganrox]

Haven't run elite Tor in forever. Sounds like I need to check it out tomorrow though =)

I wish they would've released epic Gianthold =/

[sirgog]

About a fortnight ago in there on elite full party i think, acid traps in black dragon room hit for 350~ or something stupid. cant remember how hard the dragons hit us for though.
They should just make tor epic. one epic chest per dragon.

Yeah the black dragon traps have been lethal for a while but the AoE became bugged in U9 I think. Blue was brutal too - we didn't try a second time as we knew the traps were just going to wipe us after ~40 seconds and we did not have the DPS to knock out a 20k+ HP dragon and a 10k+ HP giant in that time.

It was the dragons themselves that surprised me though. I think even the blue one would cause trouble to a lot of endgame groups (say groups that can beat Epic Into the Deep with hezrou).

[Kmnh]

That sounds like a good thing. I will attempt it later :)

[Raithe]

About a fortnight ago in there on elite full party i think, acid traps in black dragon room hit for 350~ or something stupid.

Yep. Usually about 350 after 30 getting eaten by greater acid resistance.

Unless they actually gave high level players a reason to run Tor with dragons on elite, there isn't going to be a lot of experimentation with the giants or dragons. From previous experience, however, the most dangerous aspects of the blue dragon on elite was its tripping ability which it pretty much spammed.

It could be that being tripped may be considered momentarily "incapacitated" and the dragon could be getting 125% damage on elite. The white dragon will most definitely be getting 125% if you are frozen.

Note that the traps in the blue dragon room will ramp up in damage over time and will eventually do 180 or so damage (minus 30 for resistance would be about 150 damage). At some point in between, 120 points of damage might be typical. And yes, this was a relatively recent change (update 9, I believe) where someone made a complete pass of elite traps and upped the damage profiles.

[sirgog]

Yep. Usually about 350 after 30 getting eaten by greater acid resistance.

Unless they actually gave high level players a reason to run Tor with dragons on elite, there isn't going to be a lot of experimentation with the giants or dragons. From previous experience, however, the most dangerous aspects of the blue dragon on elite was its tripping ability which it pretty much spammed.

It could be that being tripped may be considered momentarily "incapacitated" and the dragon could be getting 125% damage on elite. The white dragon will most definitely be getting 125% if you are frozen.

Note that the traps in the blue dragon room will ramp up in damage over time and will eventually do 180 or so damage (minus 30 for resistance would be about 150 damage). At some point in between, 120 points of damage might be typical. And yes, this was a relatively recent change (update 9, I believe) where someone made a complete pass of elite traps and upped the damage profiles.

Yeah the blue trap killed everyone except the monk and the evasion PM (who were then mangled by the dragon). My wizard was saving against it a lot but still couldn't stay alive spamming Negative Energy Burst on cooldown and having the other PM do the same. It's not that the trap hits were overly high, it's that I was taking two at a time and could not find a place where I'd suffer only one.

The runearms probably drop more on hard and elite than they do on Normal, but doing Tor elite beyond the Gatekeeper is definitely a 'for fun and bragging rights only' thing.

Even if the dragon trip was a stun, that would only be 120% of base damage (players take 105/110/115/120/125% damage c/n/h/e/EP) and IIRC the base damage was mid-60s before.

I'd like to go back with a more prepared group sometime and try this again, but I think I'll have more luck in my attempt at a bravery Stormreaver solo.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Sounds exciting, still don't have an elite completion of this quest at level or possibly even at all that I can recall ... If you want to test further with capped characters look me up.

[Jaid314]

seems like they might be a lot more possible with a bunch of elemental absorption gear.

[Bacab]

Sounds exciting, still don't have an elite completion of this quest at level or possibly even at all that I can recall ... If you want to test further with capped characters look me up.

You mean Tor Elite with dragons at level? Tor itself is easy at level on elite. The dragon are rough. Even the White Dragon can be rough because of those nasty Cometfalls.

What I am getting at...you can do Tor for XP and Bravery Bonus pretty easily at level. Then go back in on Normal for blooding (maybe even casual?).

[Rumbaar]

Didn't you know, L14-16 'raid' content like that are design for geared 20's now. Wait until it's designed for EPIC 25's

[wax_on_wax_off]

You mean Tor Elite with dragons at level? Tor itself is easy at level on elite. The dragon are rough. Even the White Dragon can be rough because of those nasty Cometfalls.

What I am getting at...you can do Tor for XP and Bravery Bonus pretty easily at level. Then go back in on Normal for blooding (maybe even casual?).

Tor Elite is easy of course, I was talking about all the dragons :)

I wonder what would be needed to pull this off?

Black:
GS Acid Absorption sticks for all casters/healers, some sort of acid absorption for melees (epic demon scale)?
Exceptional acid resistance (epic boots of the rock are pretty easy to get)
Balanced party?

Fight both on barrier where you get hit less or split up?

Blue:
33% absorb trinket/ring for all+lightning absorb GS stick for casters/healers?
Exceptional lightning resist (again, epic bracers of wind)
Balanced party?

Fight both on barrier to avoid traps? Does this work?

Is this overkill? Is there an easy button party combination to do this with? Bunch of earth/air savants with a cleric or two for heals or something?

[Noopleh]

I tried tor on elite myself, white dragon is easy enough (casters on dragon cos of aura) melee on giant. Blue dragon is where we wipe since i pug it we get some real squishies and they don't understand not to stand on the gold lmao. i wipe each time at blue :|

[Bacab]

Tor Elite is easy of course, I was talking about all the dragons :)

I wonder what would be needed to pull this off?

Black:
GS Acid Absorption sticks for all casters/healers, some sort of acid absorption for melees (epic demon scale)?
Exceptional acid resistance (epic boots of the rock are pretty easy to get)
Balanced party?

Fight both on barrier where you get hit less or split up?

Blue:
33% absorb trinket/ring for all+lightning absorb GS stick for casters/healers?
Exceptional lightning resist (again, epic bracers of wind)
Balanced party?

Fight both on barrier to avoid traps? Does this work?

Is this overkill? Is there an easy button party combination to do this with? Bunch of earth/air savants with a cleric or two for heals or something?

I agree with your planning...but kinda disagree with your idea of a balanced party.

I think 6 WF Sorcs could beat it. Maybe a divine for FoM?

BTW I would plan for this like I planned for Stealer of Souls on Elite. EVERYONE needs fireshield. Everyone needs to be able to cast protection from elements on themselves. Everyone needs heal/Reconstruct (essentially a fill me back up button). I know you don't have to have all this...but if you do...its way easier (At least for elite Sorjek).

[Sarisa]

Those damage numbers are definitely higher than when I did the dragons on elite at level on my Pali life, probably around u11p1 or so. I was on the Blue dragon, and was only taking at most 70 for each melee shot.

[Esserbe]

If the traps weren't bugged to heck and back, that might actually be a fun fight with the "buffed" dragons, but the traps in the blue and black rooms just makes it very, very, very, very, very difficult, for no extra chance at scales or fun Tor loot like the helms (add helm cosmetic slots please!).


I wonder what would be needed to pull this off?

My FVS/Monk, two monks, a WF FVS and a sorc did it by standing in a corner up against the forcefield, only place the trap at the beginning of the room couldn't hit us (but if we walked forward, it could), after many deaths trying to find a place that was safe.

[Missing_Minds]

Think they could be hit by a double scaling issue that devs mentioned a bit back?

[Rizzia]

Tor Elite is easy of course, I was talking about all the dragons :)

I wonder what would be needed to pull this off?

Black:
GS Acid Absorption sticks for all casters/healers, some sort of acid absorption for melees (epic demon scale)?
Exceptional acid resistance (epic boots of the rock are pretty easy to get)
Balanced party?

Fight both on barrier where you get hit less or split up?

Blue:
33% absorb trinket/ring for all+lightning absorb GS stick for casters/healers?
Exceptional lightning resist (again, epic bracers of wind)
Balanced party?

Fight both on barrier to avoid traps? Does this work?

Is this overkill? Is there an easy button party combination to do this with? Bunch of earth/air savants with a cleric or two for heals or something?

You dont need anywhere near all that stuff, just a lil co-ordination. My past TR, we did 2 silmultanious Tor+ dragon elite groups with only 1 death between them. Unfortunatley it was me^^ (kinda hard to tank the giant while the dragon is cleaving you at the same time).

edit: and yeah the dragons seemed to hit a lil harder than the last time we did dragons elite.

[Monkey-Boy]

Didn't you know, L14-16 'raid' content like that are design for geared 20's now. Wait until it's designed for EPIC 25's

it's probably not WAI. Some dev commentary would be nice.

[Phemt81]

You succeded to kill one dragon on elite? Wow must have been an awesome party.

[In_Like_Flynn]

Ran Tor elite at-level in a very solid group today and noticed something odd (other than the bugged trap radius which predictably wiped us in blue and led to us not attempting black).

The dragons hit a hell of a lot harder than the last time I ran it elite (several lives ago), and also seem to have significantly more hitpoints.

Melees were being hit for well over 100 by the blue dragon, including one 121 point hit that was not a critical nor a sneak attack and was on a 100% fortification target. Several other hits were noticed too - 115, and a monk took 91 through Earth Stance 3. I remember them previously hitting for ~65 a swing (although I do remember their breath being a potential one-shot kill on squishies).

This was with five-player dungeon scaling in effect, so presumably we were suffering about 103-105% incoming damage.

Were the elite dragons accidentally (or deliberately) given the attack profiles of the made-but-never-officially-released epic versions?
Did you all forget to put your heavy fortification items back on after selling/repairing?

Or ... maybe that's just me.

[Dendrix]

Elite Tor Dragons? just say no.

[Sgt_Hart]

I may be wrong.. but I have it in my head a couple patch's ago.. they vamped up "raid bosses" across the board.

Sorjek in SoS was one, despite him being end boss in a QUEST( I stress NOT Reavers Fate Sorjek.. Stealer of Souls Sorjek). I wonder if the dragons didn't benefit from a similar unmentioned beefing.

[Sarisa]

I may be wrong.. but I have it in my head a couple patch's ago.. they vamped up "raid bosses" across the board.

Sorjek in SoS was one, despite him being end boss in a QUEST( I stress NOT Reavers Fate Sorjek.. Stealer of Souls Sorjek). I wonder if the dragons didn't benefit from a similar unmentioned beefing.

My last two Tor elites (one at level, one with 20's) were both done after the u11 raidboss changes. On the at-level one, I tanked the Blue dragon on my Pali and was only getting upwards of 70 per hit in melee, like sirgog experienced before. The other two I was on the giant.

This is a much more recent (and yet again, stealth...) change.

[sephiroth1084]

When I was leveling either this TR or my last one (monk or barbarian, probably barb), I insisted on getting the blooding done on elite. I think it took two tries, maybe three, where people were holding the instance while others rezzed out, healed and buffed and returned.

The blue dragon's traps were really obnoxious, and the acid traps in black were stupid, hitting for a ton and hitting a much larger area occasionally than they should have been. I didn't pay attention to the damage numbers from the dragons, but definitely noticed that I needed more healing than I recalled being standard.

[SupTyr]

... where people were holding the instance while others rezzed out, healed and buffed and returned.

Uhm... there is a forcefield that pops up once someone enters the dragon room, locking out anyone who comes late or reenters. Or did they change this as well?

[Emili]

When the Tor was first released the White was the worry point ... but after time the blue and black took over... the traps were always nasty in those two. If the dragons seem to be hitting harder it may be that sundering or some other fort reducing aspect may be occurring.

[Emili]

Uhm... there is a forcefield that pops up once someone enters the dragon room, locking out anyone who comes late or reenters. Or did they change this as well?

No you could always reenter those when the party dies... when the quest first came out were many party wipes and like runs.

[Emili]

Didn't you know, L14-16 'raid' content like that are design for geared 20's now. Wait until it's designed for EPIC 25's

More like switched from lvl 14-16 to Tr14-Tr16.

[Chai]

Yeap, they hit like epic mobs now, and its about time. For a while there TOR was too easy on the harder difficulties.

[Chai]

Didn't you know, L14-16 'raid' content like that are design for geared 20's now. Wait until it's designed for EPIC 25's

ELITE content is designed for TR 14-16. There are three difficulty settings below that.

I fully expect epic TOR dragons to be similar to the CAD in terms of breath weapon and melee attacks - with a level of HP suited for 6 players instead of 12.

[Monkey-Boy]

Yeap, they hit like epic mobs now, and its about time. For a while there TOR was too easy on the harder difficulties.

Really? A level 14 quest should have mobs hitting like epic mobs? That's appropriate for even level 16 twinked TRs?

Just release Epic GH and scale the elite stuff accordingly.

[Chai]

Really? A level 14 quest should have mobs hitting like epic mobs? That's appropriate for even level 16 twinked TRs?

Just release Epic GH and scale the elite stuff accordingly.

A level 16 when on elite quest BOSS mob hitting like an epic trash mob.

Add another quest to the VERY SHORT list where an AC tank is a boon to the party. If that AC tank happens to have evasion, youre golden.

They are dragons - and should be dangerous when provoked.

[Monkey-Boy]

A level 16 when on elite quest BOSS mob hitting like an epic trash mob.

Add another quest to the VERY SHORT list where an AC tank is a boon to the party. If that AC tank happens to have evasion, youre golden.

They are dragons - and should be dangerous when provoked.

ahhh, mis-understood. Though you were saying epic boss.

[sephiroth1084]

Uhm... there is a forcefield that pops up once someone enters the dragon room, locking out anyone who comes late or reenters. Or did they change this as well?
Not the specific dragon instance, but Tor and your progress. Everyone ends up recalling and returning to restart whichever dragon fight you were on. I did a life on my barb where I only ran elite and didn't repeat any quests, so I didn't want to repeat the first part of Tor.

[Kinerd]

That sounds like a good thing. I will attempt it later :)A 14 quest being more challenging than many 15-20-epic quests is never a good thing. It is only a stupid thing.
Think they could be hit by a double scaling issue that devs mentioned a bit back?I believe that referred to two distinct scalings: increased monster stats (actual or de facto), and increased generation of monsters. The challenges are notorious for this: 2 monsters per incoming on solo, 9000* in a full group.

*possibly slightly overstated

[yawumpus]

A 14 quest being more challenging than many 15-20-epic quests is never a good thing.

If you haven't noticed, the bosses under discussion are optional. You need to kill them to flag, but you can complete the quest without slaying the dragons. This removes even the "make all elite autocomplete" gripes about monostary of the scorpion threads: you can complete in elite (and thus keep your streak alive) and then come back and flag on normal (I believe casual, but at least some places don't work that way).

This is Dungeons & Dragons (or some virtual facsimile), having fierce optional dragons is always a good thing.

[Kinerd]

The point at hand is wild inconsistency, dress it up however you like. It's incredibly demeaning to invent transparent excuses for what is just a poor job on the development side. Call it what it is, encourage them to do better.

[Rumbaar]

ELITE content is designed for TR 14-16. There are three difficulty settings below that.This is just wrong, base content should not require TR status.

[Dendrix]

Add another quest to the VERY SHORT list where an AC tank is a boon to the party. If that AC tank happens to have evasion, youre golden.

They are dragons - and should be dangerous when provoked.

The dragon's aren't the dangerous bits. The traps are the dangerous bits.
White dies fairly easily. blue and blank don't.

Tor Dragons on elite with bravery bonus @ level is not doable.
Reavers Fate on elite with bravery bonus @ level is doable (did it 2 weeks ago, this life)


Didn't some permadeaths try tor dragons on elite, and they all wiped in under 1 min, most didn't even get to attack before the were instant deathed by the traps.

Tor Dragons on elite? just say no.

[sirgog]

When the Tor was first released the White was the worry point ... but after time the blue and black took over... the traps were always nasty in those two. If the dragons seem to be hitting harder it may be that sundering or some other fort reducing aspect may be occurring.



The combat log text pasted indicated that this was most definitely not a sneak attack or critical hit. That's obvious from the log text.


Didn't you know, L14-16 'raid' content like that are design for geared 20's now. Wait until it's designed for EPIC 25's

Optional difficulty setting... If you don't like it, Elite is not for you. Simple. These dragons are easy on Casual and very PUGgable without a healer on Normal.

These were originally designed for melees that had ~300hp (considered good at the level 14 cap), few or no +6 stat items, and +2 Greater Dragon Bane weapons if they were lucky. That's what we had at the 14 cap.




I tried tor on elite myself, white dragon is easy enough (casters on dragon cos of aura) melee on giant. Blue dragon is where we wipe since i pug it we get some real squishies and they don't understand not to stand on the gold lmao. i wipe each time at blue :|

I wasn't standing on the gold but was being hit by two traps. I could not find a safe spot (safe meaning 0 or 1 traps hitting me) before I died, although after I died I think someone else found one.

The last time I did blue, the gold was only an issue if you got tailslapped onto it. Now the whole room is close enough to the gold to kill you.

[Rumbaar]

Optional difficulty setting... If you don't like it, Elite is not for you. Simple. These dragons are easy on Casual and very PUGgable without a healer on Normal.

These were originally designed for melees that had ~300hp (considered good at the level 14 cap), few or no +6 stat items, and +2 Greater Dragon Bane weapons if they were lucky. That's what we had at the 14 cap.So you're saying it's no longer designed for those it was originally designed for? A L14 cannot do this. Like Chronosphere, a 'L6' raid shouldn't be designed for L20's just because it's run by L20's more than L6-8 players.

[sirgog]

So you're saying it's no longer designed for those it was originally designed for? A L14 cannot do this. Like Chronosphere, a 'L6' raid shouldn't be designed for L20's just because it's run by L20's more than L6-8 players.

Elite Chronoscope has been run many times by 6-8th level groups, and has been soloed at level 8. The latter was an accomplishment truly worthy of the title 'elite'.

If you feel it's impossible, run a lower difficulty. Tor dragons were ALWAYS meant to be the hardest fight in the game at level 14, presumably to make up for the raid being so trivial (as it still is, bravery elite groups usually don't even need more than 7 or 8 players).

[Rumbaar]

Elite Chronoscope has been run many times by 6-8th level groups, and has been soloed at level 8. The latter was an accomplishment truly worthy of the title 'elite'.

If you feel it's impossible, run a lower difficulty. Tor dragons were ALWAYS meant to be the hardest fight in the game at level 14, presumably to make up for the raid being so trivial (as it still is, bravery elite groups usually don't even need more than 7 or 8 players).Not sure what the point of this thread was then. You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Either it's 'epic' level damage as per your first post and WAI or it's a welcomed changed and WAI from your last post [for L14 players].

[Rizzia]

I wasn't standing on the gold but was being hit by two traps. I could not find a safe spot (safe meaning 0 or 1 traps hitting me) before I died, although after I died I think someone else found one.

The last time I did blue, the gold was only an issue if you got tailslapped onto it. Now the whole room is close enough to the gold to kill you.

For blue and black we fight near the forcefield, traps arent an issue (well..they kinda are with their ridiculous hit boxes, but your safe-ish) The problem is more the entire party getting cleaved by both bosses. (Or in our case, just the Fvs (me^^)

Twas probably easier for us, since we had a 4 man group (the other instance was a 5 man) I in no-way am trying to brag, we did it on a whim expecting to fail.. White and blue we had zero issues, black was a near wipe, but we somehow pulled through. (0 rune arms, few scales)

Though from reading you were doing it at 14, where-as we did it at 16 (still in elite BB range), the extra hps might have been the difference.

[Cardoor]

This isn't difficult! The older the quest is, the older the dragons become. The older the dragon, the more powerful it is (at least that is how it used to be when I played PnP). :)

[sirgog]

For blue and black we fight near the forcefield, traps arent an issue (well..they kinda are with their ridiculous hit boxes, but your safe-ish) The problem is more the entire party getting cleaved by both bosses. (Or in our case, just the Fvs (me^^)

Twas probably easier for us, since we had a 4 man group (the other instance was a 5 man) I in no-way am trying to brag, we did it on a whim expecting to fail.. White and blue we had zero issues, black was a near wipe, but we somehow pulled through. (0 rune arms, few scales)

Though from reading you were doing it at 14, where-as we did it at 16 (still in elite BB range), the extra hps might have been the difference.

I was absolutely against the barrier in blue. Two traps hit me everywhere I went, although after I was down someone found a spot that was being hit by only one trap (a little perch). We were 15-16.



Not sure what the point of this thread was then. You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Either it's 'epic' level damage as per your first post and WAI or it's a welcomed changed and WAI from your last post [for L14 players].

The traps are bugged and have been (alongside the VON3 marut room 'know the quest or instant wipe' trap) since U9 or so. That's a separate issue to the positive changes to the dragons.

Finally something that has one (just one) difficulty setting that isn't auto-win for level 16s. Something veterans can possibly wipe on, and that new players can aspire to beating one day (maybe at 20, maybe at level with more play experience), something that isn't just a 4-6 minute zerg like elite Eyes of Stone.

[Cyndrome]

I was absolutely against the barrier in blue. Two traps hit me everywhere I went, although after I was down someone found a spot that was being hit by only one trap (a little perch). We were 15-16.




The traps are bugged and have been (alongside the VON3 marut room 'know the quest or instant wipe' trap) since U9 or so. That's a separate issue to the positive changes to the dragons.

Finally something that has one (just one) difficulty setting that isn't auto-win for level 16s. Something veterans can possibly wipe on, and that new players can aspire to beating one day (maybe at 20, maybe at level with more play experience), something that isn't just a 4-6 minute zerg like elite Eyes of Stone.

We did it about a month ago at level on a TR run, and it was challenging, but clearly not what you described. I still died twice in acid, and I should have known better. We had a couple deaths against the barrier on blue after weird trap surges, but the dragons and giants were pretty easy to handle. I'd be interested in hearing if anyone else tries.

[GotSomeQuestions]

We just completed elite Tor with two wizards (level 15 and 16), both WF PMs. Killed all three dragons (white, then blue, then black). White was no real problem, one person out of form for giant. Blue we were up against the barrier, I don't think it was hitting us twice. I died at the last second because I put Niac's up one last time instead of healing myself. For the black, we both went up against the far wall, I got knocked down a bit by the dragon but mostly kept my dots up.

I was tanking all three dragons in form, managing fairly easily with the occasional (or frequent) NEB. They were definitely hitting ~60ish on me:
(Combat): Rhindvutha hit you for a total of 54 points of pierce damage after 10 were blocked by Slash damage reduction.

[Gunga]

Reroll.

[Havok.cry]

Someday I want to assault argonessen, in a raid, on epic, just for fun. The trash would be mobs of the dragons in tor.

[Infant]

A 14 quest being more challenging than many 15-20-epic quests is never a good thing.
You are right, most epics are too easy :).