D3 vs DDO = ddo wins

[al73r]

Tried the open beta this weekend. Can't say I'm impressed. I was a huge d2 fan and d3 is a neutered version of d2. I was expecting d3 to have more abilities as far as character customization goes. They in fact made it so you have less abilities as you play and you cannot change your character stats. Heck you can't even change the appearance of the character.

The game basically is super dumb'd down. There is no thought really in it other than kill and get items. Everything else is taken care of for you.

DDO wins again. (also please don't dumb down ddo anymore)

Sorry d3 you set your self up for gold farmers and nothing more. (see real money auction house in d3).

Alter

[Lotusxyx]

Although I find your thread to be a kind of apples and oranges comparison, I think you do have a valid complaint.
Comparing an MMO to a loot fest game like D3 is a little off. Personally, I think that DDO has spoiled the user base with the lengths it allows us to customise our characters. When we come across other games that don't push the boat out as far, we're a little disappointed. I know I am.
It is clear, though, that too much customisation is a bit of a double edged sword. I'm sure you can attest to the number of gimp toons running around Stormreach. This is, in large, because it's easy for a newer player to shoot themself in the foot thanks to the myriad of differences they can make when rolling a new toon.
I don't think D3 was ever supposed to be about that. I feel it was design to be fun and easy to pick up and play. It'll get you hooked on easy gameplay and shoot-and-loot nature of the game, however on-rails that may appear. I can't really see it drawing away the DDO user base as it doesn't scratch the same itch that DDO does.
I'll probably give the game a fair try out when it's released, but I certainly won't be hanging up my +1 Shortsword of Halfling Bane any time soon.

[Uska]

Unless the game changes a lot between now and release (I don't see that happening) I won't be buying it got pretty bored rather quickly it offered nothing new over D2 and as you said it seems pretty dumbed down


Seems funny that the only game that can keep me playing is 6 years old

[Uska]

Although I find your thread to be a kind of apples and oranges comparison, I think you do have a valid complaint.
Comparing an MMO to a loot fest game like D3 is a little off. Personally, I think that DDO has spoiled the user base with the lengths it allows us to customise our characters. When we come across other games that don't push the boat out as far, we're a little disappointed. I know I am.
It is clear, though, that too much customisation is a bit of a double edged sword. I'm sure you can attest to the number of gimp toons running around Stormreach. This is, in large, because it's easy for a newer player to shoot themself in the foot thanks to the myriad of differences they can make when rolling a new toon.
I don't think D3 was ever supposed to be about that. I feel it was design to be fun and easy to pick up and play. It'll get you hooked on easy gameplay and shoot-and-loot nature of the game, however on-rails that may appear. I can't really see it drawing away the DDO user base as it doesn't scratch the same itch that DDO does.
I'll probably give the game a fair try out when it's released, but I certainly won't be hanging up my +1 Shortsword of Halfling Bane any time soon.


Problem is if the game play is to easy you run the risk of boring your players to quickly the game really felt more like a iPad app than a real game and worth about the same price it just confirmed my choice not to play blizzard games any more

[al73r]

again, I see this time and time again on these boards. I did compare the game to d2 initially. Please don't think i'm making a direct comparison of ddo to d3 because you are right that is apples to oranges.
However from d2 to d3 it has become dumb'd down and neutered.

Alter

[markusthelion]

I'm pretty much always going to play ddo, because it is a 'different' game for me. However Guild Wars 2 looks excellent and I will be playing that. It seems to be a good counter-balance to ddo imo.

[Aaxeyu]

Playing d3 and I'm loving it.

DDO is a very different game, so what are you comparing exactly?

[al73r]

Playing d3 and I'm loving it.

DDO is a very different game, so what are you comparing exactly?

Trolling or did not read.

[teh_meh]

You're being too nostalgic over D2 and giving it too much credit. Stat point distribution in D2 from a min/max standpoint was shallow (enough STR to carry the loot you planned-out, everything else into VIT). This is how you ran hell on almost every build. DEX/EN were flavor allocations, at best...outright nerfing yourself at worst.

In terms of allocating Stat points, that too was a lie. In D2 you were spamming 2 optimized skills 90% of the time which means stat points HAD to follow certain cookie-cutter routes or, again, you were nerfing yourself.

Trust me, we're not missing much having D3 auto-level our stats for us.

Why you are trying to compare DDO to D3 kind of mystifies me because they are not comparable aside from being different options to occupy our time. Like I said, Diablo was never really about role playing. It's about slaying monsters and grinding loot on a very primitive (yet satisfying) level.

You say you tried the open beta this weekend but all the Diablo 3 sites are saying the servers have been in full meltdown mode from the crushing demand...so I'm not sure how you got in and, even if you did, how you managed to play for any meaningful period of time before crashing out.

So I'm gunna call bull on your post, mate.

[MrCow]

Problem is if the game play is to easy you run the risk of boring your players to quickly

One thing to keep in mind with the Diablo III Beta is that it only gives us a glimpse at the beginning parts, which now-a-days are akin to extended tutorials, so it is not much of a surprise if folks currently find it easy.

In comparison to Diablo II, it is likely similar to running the amount of content that allowed you to get to Tristram to save Deckard Cain, which still leaves plenty of mystery on the difficulty and enjoyment of the upcoming parts of the game.


so I'm not sure how you got in and, even if you did, how you managed to play for any meaningful period of time before crashing out.

If it means anything, I was also on the open beta from 11:00PM to 1:30AM EST yesterday, as well as 9:00AM to 11:00AM EST this morning (until they had to bring the server down).

[teh_meh]

If it means anything, I was also on the open beta from 11:00PM to 1:30AM EST yesterday, as well as 9:00AM to 11:00AM EST this morning (until they had to bring the server down).

Roger that. Apology to the OP in that regard.

[Uska]

Playing d3 and I'm loving it.

DDO is a very different game, so what are you comparing exactly?

D3 is boringly easy to play I wasn't expecting much from it but it was even less than I expected

[al73r]

You're being too nostalgic over D2 and giving it too much credit. Stat point distribution in D2 from a min/max standpoint was shallow (enough STR to carry the loot you planned-out, everything else into VIT). This is how you ran hell on almost every build. DEX/EN were flavor allocations, at best...outright nerfing yourself at worst.

In terms of allocating Stat points, that too was a lie. In D2 you were spamming 2 optimized skills 90% of the time which means stat points HAD to follow certain cookie-cutter routes or, again, you were nerfing yourself.

Trust me, we're not missing much having D3 auto-level our stats for us.

Why you are trying to compare DDO to D3 kind of mystifies me because they are not comparable aside from being different options to occupy our time. Like I said, Diablo was never really about role playing. It's about slaying monsters and grinding loot on a very primitive (yet satisfying) level.

You say you tried the open beta this weekend but all the Diablo 3 sites are saying the servers have been in full meltdown mode from the crushing demand...so I'm not sure how you got in and, even if you did, how you managed to play for any meaningful period of time before crashing out.

So I'm gunna call bull on your post, mate.

Sorry to say I played till i hit lvl 8 (got bored). So call bull all you want as I was playing last night.

[Uska]

One thing to keep in mind with the Diablo III Beta is that it only gives us a glimpse at the beginning parts, which now-a-days are akin to extended tutorials, so it is not much of a surprise if folks currently find it easy.

In comparison to Diablo II, it is likely similar to running the amount of content that allowed you to get to Tristram to save Deckard Cain, which still leaves plenty of mystery on the difficulty and enjoyment of the upcoming parts of the game.



If it means anything, I was also on the open beta from 11:00PM to 1:30AM EST yesterday, as well as 9:00AM to 11:00AM EST this morning (until they had to bring the server down).

The beta was enough to show that things hadnt changed enough from D2 to make even worth the price I paid for D1 much less the price it really is

[Uska]

Sorry to say I played till i hit lvl 8 (got bored). So call bull all you want as I was playing last night.

I finished the beta and hit level 10 this morning but had to force myself as I was bored by lvl5

[Uska]

You're being too nostalgic over D2 and giving it too much credit. Stat point distribution in D2 from a min/max standpoint was shallow (enough STR to carry the loot you planned-out, everything else into VIT). This is how you ran hell on almost every build. DEX/EN were flavor allocations, at best...outright nerfing yourself at worst.

In terms of allocating Stat points, that too was a lie. In D2 you were spamming 2 optimized skills 90% of the time which means stat points HAD to follow certain cookie-cutter routes or, again, you were nerfing yourself.

Trust me, we're not missing much having D3 auto-level our stats for us.

Why you are trying to compare DDO to D3 kind of mystifies me because they are not comparable aside from being different options to occupy our time. Like I said, Diablo was never really about role playing. It's about slaying monsters and grinding loot on a very primitive (yet satisfying) level.

You say you tried the open beta this weekend but all the Diablo 3 sites are saying the servers have been in full meltdown mode from the crushing demand...so I'm not sure how you got in and, even if you did, how you managed to play for any meaningful period of time before crashing out.

So I'm gunna call bull on your post, mate.

I played the beta straight through lvl 10 and beat it this morning without any issues

[EnjoyTheJourney]

In DDO there are a lot of beautiful / interesting visuals and new content comes on stream fairly regularly, ready to explore. D3 is unlikely to offer as much of that, and instead offers an intense and steady stream of twitch-combat.

I don't see DDO > D3 or D3 > DDO; I see them co-existing quite nicely with each other in my chosen set of gaming experiences.

[teh_meh]

I played the beta straight through lvl 10 and beat it this morning without any issues

grats, you won the equivalent of Korthos Island over there.

This thread has 17 replies, 6 of which are you spamming single-sentences of hate with the frequency of the 'build your guild' event.

We get it, you don't like it. christ, lol

[Aaxeyu]

D3 is boringly easy to play I wasn't expecting much from it but it was even less than I expected

yeah you would say the exact same about DDO if you only ever played khorthos on normal.

Get some perspective.

[Aaxeyu]

You say you tried the open beta this weekend but all the Diablo 3 sites are saying the servers have been in full meltdown mode from the crushing demand...so I'm not sure how you got in and, even if you did, how you managed to play for any meaningful period of time before crashing out.

Worked fine for me.

[teh_meh]

Worked fine for me.

see post #11

[Uska]

yeah you would say the exact same about DDO if you only ever played khorthos on normal.

Get some perspective.

kothos on normal is 100% better than d3 beta the first time through I will agree kothos has about zero% replay interest. but if you never played it its not bad

[Aaxeyu]

kothos on normal is 100% better than d3 beta the first time through I will agree kothos has about zero% replay interest. but if you never played it its not bad

I disagree.
I have not played it with anyone who didn't find it boring and confusing the first time around.

[ShadowFlash]

Seems funny that the only game that can keep me playing is 6 years old

I STILL play Age of Wonders...the last expansion was 8 years ago, lol...sadly that genre has dissapeared.

ShadowFlash

[Uska]

I disagree.
I have not played it with anyone who didn't find it boring and confusing the first time around.

well diferent tastes for different folks I am sure it will be a huge success but they wont get a dime or another second of time out of me so much search for an alternate to ddo for a break or replacement when it dies goes on

It still nothing new from d2 really other than maybe the upcoming ah.

[Uska]

I STILL play Age of Wonders...the last expansion was 8 years ago, lol...sadly that genre has dissapeared.

ShadowFlash

never really cared for that one much but my friend sure did I prefered Kohan.

[Caliban]

I've played the D3 beta all the way through about 4 or 5 times now - have a lvl 11 monk and a lvl 11 demonhunter. I'm trying to get the beta achievements for some reason, probably OCD on my part.

It basically is a prettier and slightly dumbed down version of D2, at least so far.

But still fun in that mindless clickfest, watch hordes of enemies die kind of way.

Normal mode is way too easy - being able to get to lvl 10 without dying or even using a single healing potion is a bit much. Hopefully Hard/Nightmare will be worth playing in the finished game.

Your stash and the NPC Smith are shared between characters, so you can transfer stuff or have the Smith craft stuff for you to twink new characters, even if you choose to ignore the auction house (like me).

D3 will be fun for a weekend or even a week (maybe a month or so if you are dead set on beating Nightmare mode with all classes), but DDO keeps you playing for years.

[Lotusxyx]

again, I see this time and time again on these boards. I did compare the game to d2 initially. Please don't think i'm making a direct comparison of ddo to d3 because you are right that is apples to oranges.
However from d2 to d3 it has become dumb'd down and neutered.

Alter

I wasn't really having a go at you or anything like that. The bulk of my argument was highlighting the difference in the genres. The comparison you made between the games comes from the very title of your thread, that's all.

[xveganrox]

I spent a massive amount of time playing Diablo 2 as a kid and have been waiting for Diablo 3 for years, and after playing the "beta" for about 45 minutes I cancelled my preorder. I'd heard all the bad stuff from people who have been in the closed "beta" but was hoping it was mostly hyperbolic.

There's no skill and attribute selection. There's no need for healing potions (though they exist) since every other enemy drops a health globe you can get healed by just by walking on or near it. Town portal and identify have been eliminated as scrolls and spells and have instead become intrinsic abilities. The graphics would be state-of-the-art by 2001 standards (when Diablo 3 production started) but are laughable at this point - and worse, their cartoony style prevents the setting from feeling any darker than a Casper the Friendly Ghost cartoon. The real money auction house and the complete reliance on Blizzard servers for any gameplay (even single-player) are just the nails in the coffin. I could go on about the other things I hate (weird emphasis on crafting, the boot-up screen is a WoW log-in screen, etc) but the above is more than enough for me to avoid this game.

As far as I've seen, Blizzard's success in WoW has really hurt their ability to make other games. Starcraft 2 was, in a lot of ways, disappointing (battlenet 2.0 was a huge disaster, there was only 1/3 of a campaign, and unit variety was low) but at the same time, I found it to be a good game at its base. Diablo 3 might be a good game, too, but Diablo 2 does almost all the same things (and a lot more) and does them better, in my opinion.

Just my $.02

[Postumus]

It is clear, though, that too much customisation is a bit of a double edged sword. I'm sure you can attest to the number of gimp toons running around Stormreach. This is, in large, because it's easy for a newer player to shoot themself in the foot thanks to the myriad of differences they can make when rolling a new toon.


I think this is a horrible argument for the 'negative' aspects of freedom of customization. People learn how to build characters by trial and error. Sometimes the errors are so bad they need to re-roll, and I think new players do this quite a bit as they are feeling out the game, but this game is easy enough for most builds to make it to 20 while the player has fun doing so. Non min/maxed cookie cutter build does not equal unplayable.


Building for epics is a different mindset altogether and it would be extremely rare for a new player to reach this goal in his/her first life considering the gear, past lives, tomes, etc always included in 100% of the epic builds posted in the forums.

[Lotusxyx]

I think this is a horrible argument for the 'negative' aspects of freedom of customization. People learn how to build characters by trial and error. Sometimes the errors are so bad they need to re-roll, and I think new players do this quite a bit as they are feeling out the game, but this game is easy enough for most builds to make it to 20 while the player has fun doing so. Non min/maxed cookie cutter build does not equal unplayable.


Building for epics is a different mindset altogether and it would be extremely rare for a new player to reach this goal in his/her first life considering the gear, past lives, tomes, etc always included in 100% of the epic builds posted in the forums.

I never said it was a bad thing XD. I said it was a double edged sword, meaning it has the potential to backfire. Personally, I'm all for customisation. The more the better. It's one of the main reasons I'm still playing DDO, and it certainly shows. In particular, compare it to SWTOR. I feel the customisation in that MMO is superficial at best. Your characters have very strict roles, and you basically pidgeonhole yourself into one of two things with your class/advanced class choice. It made the game feel too restrictive, as far as I'm concerned.

[Pfold]

I haven't played the beta but have seen some stuff on the game play. I can't make an informed assessment without seeing it as a whole. As long as it's comparable to 2 in any way, shape or form I'll pick it up to play it. Basically I'm hoping it's the hack and slash I remember it as.

Making the comparison between D3 and DDO seems illogical to me. Perhaps it's because I see one as simply a multiplayer game and the other as an mmo. The only common thread between the two is the fantasy genre. A similar comparison would be comparing Halo versus SWToR. /shrug.

If the comparison is solely based on what keeps your attention/enthusiasm then the post is just subjective. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, including those replying to yours.

I believe a closer comparison to DDO (subject matter and sub model) would be the the new Neverwinter. Which looks ~ok~ though what I saw is just what was shown during PAX (I believe they said it was in alpha).

[Matuse]

I was excited for Diablo 3...2 years ago. Now? The more I see and learn about it, the less interesting it gets. It seems like Blizzard has gone above and beyond the call of duty to nuke out any semblance of interesting game mechanics. Every time I'd see a bit of information about a feature and I'd say to myself "That seems like a good idea", the next month would be a post from Bashiok saying they removed it.

Definitely not buying it.

[oweieie]

The game basically is super dumb'd down. There is no thought really in it other than kill and get items. Everything else is taken care of for you.

Haven't tried D3, but from what you say it really sounds like D2, not a dumbed down D2. All D2 was was kill and get items. Or perhaps "don't pick the blatently sub-optimal abilities and kill and get items".

Blizzard is releasing the exact same game ever few years but change the name slightly. It's Nintendo's formula and it's worked wonders for them, people have bought 5 different copies of Mario Cart or Brawl or whatever just for different platforms. Why shouldn't Blizzard cash in on people's desire to buy the same game again?

[goodspeed]

Bah theirs no such thing as customization. Solid build templates are constructed by the masses as the best possible choice be it dps or defense or the half and half mix and that's what ya got.

Anything else is unacceptable and if seen is branded as a nub build and they are then egged in the marketplace.

Sometimes theirs the guy that throws the egg shaped stone.

Personally in any new mmo I expect graphics to match great combat and an equally useful ui system. Anything that isn't, ain't worth the time. And for something like diablo 3 I was really sad to see that in all this time they could only really rip off the gauntlet look from the n64 . I mean that thing looks only a hop skip better then diablo for the play station.

[Lotusxyx]

Bah theirs no such thing as customization. Solid build templates are constructed by the masses as the best possible choice be it dps or defense or the half and half mix and that's what ya got.


I couldn't disagree more. You're trying to say that there's only about three viable builds for any given class. Sure, there are flavour builds, and sub-optimal builds, but that doesn't mean that they aren't viable. It really doesn't matter if the community shuns your build, you play it for yourself, not for anyone else.

For example, I have a custom-made Drizzt build. Everyone and their mothers hate Drizzt with a passion. The build is gimpy, I freely admit it. It's totally sub-optimal, it's squishy, and isn't top-flight DPS. He's still my main, though. I played him to cap, gotten him a healthy supply of green steel and have started Epics with him. I'll TR him, too once I've gotten all the end-game gear I want out of him.

I wouldn't want to take that enjoyment away for anyone, dunno about you.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

I liked playing D2 & LOOD, but at one point it because far too repetitive (spelling ?) to me.

And, I began to notice the absolute lack of proper role playing.

I coined my growing disgust into the (cynically meant) saying of "I fight, therefore I play a role". Which implies that every social interaction just does not exist in these Action-RPGs.

It was like waking up from a bad, but yet very, very, very addictive "dream".

Nowadays, I'm a full hater of these games. Especially when I notice the lack of social interaction. I could go ranting on and on, but most incorrectly called "role"-playing games are nothing but fighting games. And they continue in doing as if social interaction was either

- not desired
- not existent
- not necessary for playing a role

Or something like that.

DDO is fun for me as long as it is able to give me a compelling story and at least something in terms of complexity.

In hard contrast to the majority here I'm not playing DDO for gear or for collecting.

I'm almost only playing it for story and "fun". And I define "fun" for me in terms of "fascination", mostly. Yes, to use the Bard's skyll name, DDO in part indeed "fascinates" me - but not in terms of grinding, fighting and collecting.

Blizzard won't ever get my money again. Except when they manage to do a game like Drakensang River Of Time - and that will NEVER be - not according to their history of released games.

[fco-karatekid]

One thing to keep in mind with the Diablo III Beta is that it only gives us a glimpse at the beginning parts, which now-a-days are akin to extended tutorials, so it is not much of a surprise if folks currently find it easy.

In comparison to Diablo II, it is likely similar to running the amount of content that allowed you to get to Tristram to save Deckard Cain, which still leaves plenty of mystery on the difficulty and enjoyment of the upcoming parts of the game.



If it means anything, I was also on the open beta from 11:00PM to 1:30AM EST yesterday, as well as 9:00AM to 11:00AM EST this morning (until they had to bring the server down).

Indeed - now I am not a fan of what's been done to Diablo III (especially single player MUST be online); BUT the comparison is also similar to Getting a feel for DDO by playing the Korthos quests only. Had I not gotten to stormreach harbor, I wouldn't have continued playing. New Ringleader and Durk's Got a Secret were what really got me interested, then Waterworks, believe it or not.

then I went to Tanglerootcanal and wanted to commit suicide - but that's a whole nother topic.

[Lotusxyx]

Indeed - now I am not a fan of what's been done to Diablo III (especially single player MUST be online)

This is how Blizzard roles now. It's their patented anti-piracy measure. Damned be the consequences, they'll have none of this thievery lark. It's a shame that thanks to the piracy lunatics out there trust-worthy gamers get it in the neck.

It's still not as bad as EA's DRM with Spore though. Limited number of installs? One account per game? Total craziness, if you ask me. Just pray things don't get worse.

You never know, maybe developers will come around in future and authorise you to play every time you boot up a game...

[Ryiah]

I can't make an informed assessment without seeing it as a whole.

I'm highly amused by the number of people who are complaining about Diablo 3 as if the meager amount of content available is enough to make a real assessment. They're comparing a game that is in beta stages to a game that has been around for years and has had plenty of time to mature. This thread is pointless.

[Ovrad]

I spent a massive amount of time playing Diablo 2 as a kid and have been waiting for Diablo 3 for years, and after playing the "beta" for about 45 minutes I cancelled my preorder. I'd heard all the bad stuff from people who have been in the closed "beta" but was hoping it was mostly hyperbolic.

There's no skill and attribute selection. There's no need for healing potions (though they exist) since every other enemy drops a health globe you can get healed by just by walking on or near it. Town portal and identify have been eliminated as scrolls and spells and have instead become intrinsic abilities. The graphics would be state-of-the-art by 2001 standards (when Diablo 3 production started) but are laughable at this point - and worse, their cartoony style prevents the setting from feeling any darker than a Casper the Friendly Ghost cartoon. The real money auction house and the complete reliance on Blizzard servers for any gameplay (even single-player) are just the nails in the coffin. I could go on about the other things I hate (weird emphasis on crafting, the boot-up screen is a WoW log-in screen, etc) but the above is more than enough for me to avoid this game.

As far as I've seen, Blizzard's success in WoW has really hurt their ability to make other games. Starcraft 2 was, in a lot of ways, disappointing (battlenet 2.0 was a huge disaster, there was only 1/3 of a campaign, and unit variety was low) but at the same time, I found it to be a good game at its base. Diablo 3 might be a good game, too, but Diablo 2 does almost all the same things (and a lot more) and does them better, in my opinion.

Just my $.02


Well said. Pretty much spot on my opinion.

It just feels like so much has been cut out. No attributes points, no skills points, nope the game does it all for you cause you clearly would screw things up on your own. Only 4 players multiplayer, and hirelings are booted out the instant you got 2 players in the game, making the whole hireling system irrelevant if you plan on not being an hermit. And with only 4 players, they somehow managed to completely clutter up the screen with flashy effects that prevent me from seeing what's happening more often than not.

As for the cartoon-ish horror look, it just makes the whole game seem like a bad clone of a Tim Burton animation: "scary themed", but not scary at all. (Not bashing Burton at all, but it doesn't fit the diablo setting at all imho)

[Dandonk]

I'm sorry, Diablo 3? That's the 3d graphics version of Progress Quest, right?

:)

OK, perhaps not quite that bad, but the more I read about it, the less I want to try it.

I had fun in D2. Played it a lot. D3 seems to have taken everything that was good about it, and thrown it out the window. Then added real money AH, inability to single play without using Blizzard servers, and so on.

No, D2 was not perfect by any means as far as character customization went. But it did have it. Now there's not even the pretense of choice. Hurray?

Methinks I'll go reinstall PS:Torment next time I feel nostalgic, instead.

[Aaxeyu]

There is more customization in d3 than in d2. You will very quickly get over the illusion of vast amount of choices the d2 skill trees and attribute system gives.

[xveganrox]

I'm highly amused by the number of people who are complaining about Diablo 3 as if the meager amount of content available is enough to make a real assessment. They're comparing a game that is in beta stages to a game that has been around for years and has had plenty of time to mature. This thread is pointless.

I'm not judging it based on the content, I'm judging it based on the system that's in place - that much, we've been told, is complete and will carry over in its current incarnation to the full game.


There is more customization in d3 than in d2. You will very quickly get over the illusion of vast amount of choices the d2 skill trees and attribute system gives.

I disagree completely and after years of playing D2 didn't "get over the illusion of a vast amount of choices." Just like in DDO, there's essentially an endless number of builds in D2. D3 (from what I've seen and played) is more like World of Warcraft (albeit even more simplified): your attributes and skills are assigned for you, and you can make slight changes to how the skills work (like talents).

Diablo 2 had infinite choices. Sure, there are only a few completely optimal builds, but that's how every game is. In Diablo 2, much like in DDO, you can make slightly sub-optimal characters of great variety and still have fun and do well. I like having choices. My main DDO build is a lot less than optimal (THF rogue, anyone?) but for me the uniqueness that that brings is part of what makes it fun for me.

[MaximumCharisma]

D3 looks to me like it will be worth it to play through. I think I will enjoy logging in and accomplishing exactly what I want to do, when I want to. Unfortunatly, for many players DDO simply can't offer that. The game can't be soloable for all and at the same time challenging for 12 man raid groups.

To me they are simply not comparable, but after playing D2 a whole lot, D3 will take some getting used to.

As for char customization, I think D2 had DDO beat all the way around. You only noticed the merging of builds at the end of Hell mode when immunities and life totals started to affect "gimpy" builds. But the feel of playing classes was a lot different then that of DDO. I'm glad that Turbine realizes how similar play is amongst its classes and is taking steps to make builds feel different with Lets Talk threads on AC and Enhancements and the like.

[Bufo_Alvarius]

Buy Torchlight 2 instead.

[Lleren]

I gave Diablo 3 a try. It feels like a Diablo game, and that is a good thing. I've already recomended it to folks based on its classic style and feel.

I love that its not based on having a dozen spell long cast order like so many other Online experiences.

[Aaxeyu]

I disagree completely and after years of playing D2 didn't "get over the illusion of a vast amount of choices." Just like in DDO, there's essentially an endless number of builds in D2. D3 (from what I've seen and played) is more like World of Warcraft (albeit even more simplified): your attributes and skills are assigned for you, and you can make slight changes to how the skills work (like talents).

In the real world though, there are very few builds in d2. The difference between 2 builds using the same tree is less significant than using the same skill with different rune in D3.

Yes, every skill is unlocked for you, but that doesn't mean you can use them all at the same time. The customization comes from combination of the skills and runes.

Attributes are a joke in D2. Enough in strength, rest in vitality. That is not customization.

[HalfOrcBeautyQueen]

Unless the game changes a lot between now and release (I don't see that happening) I won't be buying it got pretty bored rather quickly it offered nothing new over D2 and as you said it seems pretty dumbed down


Seems funny that the only game that can keep me playing is 6 years old

I know, I have so much fun playing this game. I'm really looking forward to the expansion so I can play it for the next six years.

[Myrddinman]

I had a change to play D3 last night, but unfortunately couldn't stay interested for more than 30 minutes.

I thought about it a little today, as I was trying to console my expectations ;)
and came to the realization that I will probably still purchase it; however, I am a not as excited about it as I once was. I know that I only had a chance to plod around the tutorial stage, but the overall look and feel just seemed so...vapid :(

I've convinced myself that I've been ruined by DDO :eek:

[goodspeed]

I couldn't disagree more. You're trying to say that there's only about three viable builds for any given class. Sure, there are flavour builds, and sub-optimal builds, but that doesn't mean that they aren't viable. It really doesn't matter if the community shuns your build, you play it for yourself, not for anyone else.

For example, I have a custom-made Drizzt build. Everyone and their mothers hate Drizzt with a passion. The build is gimpy, I freely admit it. It's totally sub-optimal, it's squishy, and isn't top-flight DPS. He's still my main, though. I played him to cap, gotten him a healthy supply of green steel and have started Epics with him. I'll TR him, too once I've gotten all the end-game gear I want out of him.

I wouldn't want to take that enjoyment away for anyone, dunno about you.

Of course I would. When you crush someone elses enjoyment and spirit yours grows stronger. Just like in highlander. Their can be only 1!!!!

[EnjoyTheJourney]

In the real world though, there are very few builds in d2. The difference between 2 builds using the same tree is less significant than using the same skill with different rune in D3.

Yes, every skill is unlocked for you, but that doesn't mean you can use them all at the same time. The customization comes from combination of the skills and runes.

Attributes are a joke in D2. Enough in strength, rest in vitality. That is not customization.Quoted for truth, as attributes in D2 were minutiae that you had to manage, and not an opportunity to customize your character in a meaningful way.

If in D3 you get to focus on making decisions about stuff that actually matters, and aren't called on to spend a significant amount of time managing minutiae, then that sounds like a good thing, rather than the opposite.

[Postumus]

When you crush someone elses enjoyment and spirit yours grows stronger. Just like in highlander. Their can be only 1!!!!

Someone who has embraced the true spirit of the forums!

[fco-karatekid]

...much like in DDO, you can make slightly sub-optimal characters of great variety and still have fun and do well. I like having choices. My main DDO build is a lot less than optimal (THF rogue, anyone?) ...

Or just about any Arcane Archer, given the state of ranged :D :D :D

[fco-karatekid]

Multi-Shot Lightning Enchanted FTW.

Maybe on Drow, given their Spell Resistance sometimes requires manual beatdown... in Jungle of Khyber, mebbe.

[Templarion]

I tried Diablo 3 open beta as well. Tried all the classes and completed the beta "bare hands & nude"-style with my friend (took a lot time but was very satisfying way to simulate harder difficulty :)).

And I have to say that I am impressed! Blizzard has done some really great job!

First I want to say, that Diablo 3 has more choices than DDO. Why? Well, because Diablo 3 developers have done great job removing a good amount of boring calculations from the game. Instead of reading forums to find the most optimal build, you can simply continue your adventure and enjoy the game. And since all the abilities and runes have their place in fight, the player has to constantly think about his strategies how to engage the different type of enemies.

Don't hate Diablo 3 because it doesn't let players to create invalid, gimp builds. That is one thing I have always disliked in DDO. In DDO you have to pay attention and do the calculations yourself. Sorry, but I am not that interested in maths and I could play Sudoku as well if I wanted to do calculations. Calculations are not choices.

Btw, here is a great video explaining choices in video games: http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/choice-and-conflict

What I really like in Diablo 3 is that, while there still are some trash mobs, you are still encountering often enemies with very visible abilities. That means, you have be careful all the time and really pay attention how to play the game itself. So skill is really what matters when you play Diablo 3. The character is very easy to move and seemed to do everything I ever wanted it to do. When I died, it was always my own fault.

And, the best of all, Diablo 3 has hardcore mode!

Personally, I see no reasons to return to DDO after Diablo 3 has launched. DDO does many things well and as I have always said, DDO has a lot better combat system than any other MMO. However, DDO isn't really using all the possibilities that active combat has when Diablo 3 (even though it's not MMO exactly) seems to do better even in the first third of the beta.

[Matuse]

First I want to say, that Diablo 3 has more choices than DDO.

This word, "more", does not mean what you think it does.


And, the best of all, Diablo 3 has hardcore mode!

All games have this.

[Templarion]

This word, "more", does not mean what you think it does.

All games have this.

Did you watch the video about choices? It is pretty interesting and you may learn something new there. I did when I saw it first time.

And no, all games don't have an auto-delete feature for your character and a way to play with people only using this feature. So, all games don't have hardcore mode.

Please, next time argument your post better and we might actually have a discussion.

[ddobard1]

More customization is nice..... DDO´s tough adventures keeps Characters' endless running for better treasure and epic deeds!

[Ew_vastano]

i just finished the beta on D3 and a lot of things you are saying is correct.
However I have the game sat on my hard drive waiting on may 15th and still had to download the beta as the main game would not play.

now what that says to me is the beta is a different game to the main game, you might be right that could be just the tutorial and you are set into a locked build ( wich would suck)

Or they could have made a totaly dumbed down game just so they can test the servers ( wich was what the open beta was; a stress test on the servers. from how long it took me to get on and the amount of server crashes etc was a bl*&^y good thing they did it).

wichever it is from may 15th I will find out.

[Matuse]

Did you watch the video about choices? It is pretty interesting and you may learn something new there. I did when I saw it first time.

I've seen many videos about the game. None of them give any indication that Diablo 3 will have even a fraction of the build potential that DDO has. Runes? No.


And no, all games don't have an auto-delete feature for your character and a way to play with people only using this feature. So, all games don't have hardcore mode.

They all have voluntary deletion. You choose to not do it.

The only reason you would need to have an officially enforced hardcore mode is if you lack the will to do it yourself.

[WruntJunior]

I played the Diablo 3 demo this morning as a Wizard, and I must say...it seems Blizzard will be putting out another game that consumes way too much of my time. There are a few adjustments I would personally like to see made (like, as it seems that abilities can only be put on certain slots, opening that up for more interesting set-ups...)...but even as is, the beta was fun.

I see a lot of potential...I'll have to get my wizard to the level cap to see if it's used to its fullest (not the beta level cap, btw...level 13 is way too low). :P

[Lleren]

They all have voluntary deletion. You choose to not do it.

The only reason you would need to have an officially enforced hardcore mode is if you lack the will to do it yourself

Oh, I don't know about that.

There are reasons to have "Hardcore mode" as an available alternate set of rules. One of those is to make it easier to play with others that are playing by those same rules. Which while guilds can cover that, you often finds folks fudging the results, this way there is a referee.

That the referee is not even part of the guild, and is a part of the programming, eases part of the drama.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Oh, I don't know about that.

There are reasons to have "Hardcore mode" as an available alternate set of rules. One of those is to make it easier to play with others that are playing by those same rules. Which while guilds can cover that, you often finds folks fudging the results, this way there is a referee.

That the referee is not even part of the guild, and is a part of the programming, eases part of the drama.All of this is true.

I'll add another observation, which is that characters were usually played quite differently in "softcore" and "hardcore" mode in D2; in hardcore bosses were given more respect and the overall pace was slower, while in softcore not only was zerg the default way of playing, but their attention to being a supportive member of a team (or at least not putting others' characters at risk) was considerably lower. The social dynamics were different, as well, when playing hardcore, as you might expect.

In D2, mixing softcore zergers and hardcore survivalists on the same team can be a culture clash. I always preferred teaming in D2 (behind a password wall, keeping out griefers) with other players who I trusted not to initiate PvP and who were also playing hardcore, for that reason.

[werk]

You say you tried the open beta this weekend but all the Diablo 3 sites are saying the servers have been in full meltdown mode from the crushing demand...so I'm not sure how you got in and, even if you did, how you managed to play for any meaningful period of time before crashing out.

So I'm gunna call bull on your post, mate.

Then you would be wrong.

I've played twice this weekend, both times for a little over an hour, both times completed the full beta experience.

Servers aren't down, just gotta hit a window.

Not good. I think my main criticism is that it is SO EASY! First time playing diablo and I walked through the thing without breaking a sweat. NO CHALLENGE AT ALL. I also got in a public game with 3 barbars and it was weird having 3 players that all looked EXACTLY the same. This game has exactly zero customization. ZzZzZzz...

It is not even an MMO in my opinion, just multiplayer. If you suck at DDO and have been whinig that there should be another Baldur's Gate, D3 is for you!

[EnjoyTheJourney]

...

Don't hate Diablo 3 because it doesn't let players to create invalid, gimp builds. That is one thing I have always disliked in DDO. In DDO you have to pay attention and do the calculations yourself. Sorry, but I am not that interested in maths and I could play Sudoku as well if I wanted to do calculations. Calculations are not choices.

Btw, here is a great video explaining choices in video games: http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/choice-and-conflict

What I really like in Diablo 3 is that, while there still are some trash mobs, you are still encountering often enemies with very visible abilities. That means, you have be careful all the time and really pay attention how to play the game itself. So skill is really what matters when you play Diablo 3. The character is very easy to move and seemed to do everything I ever wanted it to do. When I died, it was always my own fault.

And, the best of all, Diablo 3 has hardcore mode!

Personally, I see no reasons to return to DDO after Diablo 3 has launched. DDO does many things well and as I have always said, DDO has a lot better combat system than any other MMO. However, DDO isn't really using all the possibilities that active combat has when Diablo 3 (even though it's not MMO exactly) seems to do better even in the first third of the beta.
That video really helped me clarify a key source of dissatisfaction about DDO that I've had for a while. I love the attention to detail in the missions, as there's a real "handcrafted labor of love" aspect to many of them, the visuals are great, many missions have a suitably epic feel to them, and most of the fights are interesting. But, I dislike all the minutiae (ie: calculations, in the video) that one needs to wade through to have a character that can perform adequately well in the parts of the game that are actually fun, as DDO overflows with them and with other forms of administrivia.

I'd been on the fence about timing for getting D3. But, this thread has me convinced to get the demo, and almost certainly the game itself on May 15th.

[...v...]

That's your beta experience, but DDO to Blizzard is like Jack to the Giant. If you ever played WoW or D2 you know about the polish this company delivers, hence why they have such a huge fan base.

[Ovrad]

Not good. I think my main criticism is that it is SO EASY! First time playing diablo and I walked through the thing without breaking a sweat. NO CHALLENGE AT ALL.
While it is true that the beta was mind-numbingly easy, (the only way to die was to get a fairly common lag spike that shot your ping over 2000ms, or fall asleep due to boredom) it's only the very intro of the game so we can't really judge the difficulty yet.


I also got in a public game with 3 barbars and it was weird having 3 players that all looked EXACTLY the same. This game has exactly zero customization. ZzZzZzz...
Agreed, sure one of them might have a pair of boots 1 tier lower or higher, but in the end the only real customization to your character you will ever be able to make, is choosing between male or female.



It is not even an MMO in my opinion, just multiplayer. If you suck at DDO and have been whinig that there should be another Baldur's Gate, D3 is for you!
Wait... are you comparing D3 to Baldur's Gate? O.o

[Uska]

That's your beta experience, but DDO to Blizzard is like Jack to the Giant. If you ever played WoW or D2 you know about the polish this company delivers, hence why they have such a huge fan base.

No they make somewhat pretty games that take little to no thinking to play and sadly instant gratification is what people seem to want now not one of their games is hard to play and that's fine for some but not for me

[Caliban]

You say you tried the open beta this weekend but all the Diablo 3 sites are saying the servers have been in full meltdown mode from the crushing demand...so I'm not sure how you got in and, even if you did, how you managed to play for any meaningful period of time before crashing out.

So I'm gunna call bull on your post, mate.

It was difficult to get on at times, and they did bring the servers down a couple of times to fix some issues, but I was still able to get on and play enough to "beat" the beta with all 5 classes. Now I'm working on getting to level 13 in each class. :)

[gerardIII]

Tried the open beta this weekend. Can't say I'm impressed. I was a huge d2 fan and d3 is a neutered version of d2. I was expecting d3 to have more abilities as far as character customization goes. They in fact made it so you have less abilities as you play and you cannot change your character stats. Heck you can't even change the appearance of the character.

The game basically is super dumb'd down. There is no thought really in it other than kill and get items. Everything else is taken care of for you.

DDO wins again. (also please don't dumb down ddo anymore)

Sorry d3 you set your self up for gold farmers and nothing more. (see real money auction house in d3).

Alter

Maybe the character customization was disabled for the open beta. How do you have less abilities? I played a sorcerer and I got more and more abilities as I leveled up.

[...v...]

No they make somewhat pretty games that take little to no thinking to play and sadly instant gratification is what people seem to want now not one of their games is hard to play and that's fine for some but not for me

Funny, I found raiding in WoW a lot more challenging then anything ddo has to offer. I watched dozens of raid clips to help me understand raid mechanics for new fights where as in DDO anyone can jump into any raid and pretty much hack n slash their way through it. I often found myself reading forums for gear optimization, stat allocation and combat rotations for my characters. I hate to burst your bubble but combat is a lot more involved in WOW then in DDO. However I do like both styles for different reasons.
Just look at all the add-ons for WoW at Curse.com compared to DDO, not to mention all the resources such as WoWheroes.com, ElitestJerks.com, Tankspot.com, L2raid.com, WoWhead.com. It sure has a lot of support for a failed game you claim it to be! Here if there is an article printed about DDO it's pasted all over the forums like if it was a Christmas day parade.
For me it's more like all the failed WoW raiders come and play DDO, this is where they turn on auto attack or hold down the left mouse button and shine.
There is a clear difference in art style in both games, some like pretty shinny things others don't care. I fall into a place where game play and quality is a bigger factor then art style.
If you want real active combat, check out http://www.playneverwinter.com/, http://news.mmosite.com/content/2011-10-19/bless_is_another_unreal_engine_3_mmorpg_with_shini ng_graphics.shtml, http://www.guildwars2.com/en/, http://www.archeage.com/en/pds/media, http://tera.enmasse.com/ all these new games are based on real time action combat.
As for instant gratification, aren't all these games based on quest and reward?

[Myrddinman]

So I played a little more last night with the Demon Hunter, and I had more fun than with the Barbarian; there was a little more strategy involved (Tangling Shot and Cantrips are great).

This said, I am still so disappointed with lack of customization. I thought, that after 12 years, Blizzard could have done so more. It's so frustrating that there is only one level of zoom, and even that is done horribly, as you can not control the camera to move around obstacles in the foreground. And how difficult is it to add some basic level of character customization and not have everyone look exactly the same. Even all of the same type of armors (Cloth Tunic for example) look exactly the same, whether they're magical or not.

I expected so much more from a company that has every developer resource at their disposal and 12 years to make a game :( I'm still going to buy it and have fun playing it, but I'll be crying the whole time whilst feeding my loot addiction ;)

[porq]

Just finished playing through the beta, and overall I am not impressed. I don't want to spend a great deal of time doing a write-up about it, so I'll just mention the things that annoyed me the most:




The sensationalized attack sounds/animations.
Used liberally and without mercy, even used for lowly barrel smashing. It's over the top and got on my nerves. Barbarian was probably the worst offender here.


Lack of distractions from the constant hack & slash.
Could be because DDO has spoiled me in that I didn't find D3 combat satisfying; it became dull and monotonous very quickly. There are no other things to do other than dive into (yet another) crafting system. Or smash barrels. Identifying your own loot and using tomes of town portal go into this category, something entirely left out of D3.


Logging in for a single player game.
Unreliable servers detracted from what should be a 'pick up and play' type of game. This might be moot once release rolls around, but it was a major turnoff. The fact we even need internet access to log in to play a single player game at all is a turnoff as well.


Health balls dropping from every other slain monster.
This is a recent gaming trend thing that I never really liked. I feel like it detracts from immersion and dulls the edge of game difficulty. Combat feels a lot less dangerous when you're rewarded with a full hp bar. Gold star stickers for everyone!


Graphics.
For a brand spanking new game, this looks like a nicely polished console game from 10 years ago. Was expecting a little more, but whatever.


That's my experience with it. Your mileage may vary.

[Pfold]

... and have been whinig that there should be another Baldur's Gate, D3 is for you!

Actually you could have both. Baldur's Gate is getting dusted off. Apparently if the reissue is successful enough then BG3 would be on the horizon.

[Trasak]

Trying to decide if Uska is trolling or not. I'd lean more towards not as he is someone with 16k posts I imagine that he is a little attached to this game.

D3 miss information in this thread:

D3 is super easy:
The beta is currently in heavy testing mode only using the tutorial section and has increase globe drop rates. "from two different friends who have been in the closed beta for months"

Everyone looks the same:
There are a limited number of item skins in the open beta for size reasons.

Skills are locked in:
There is a button in the options that lets you turn on elective mode so that you can slot any skill you want.

I'll add more as I see it come up.

In closing, not trying to jab at Maj or Kookie or 404 but prestige enhancements would not take 2 years to in the end not come out before a total enhancement revamp in a Blizzard game.

[Elation]

Funny, I found raiding in WoW a lot more challenging then anything ddo has to offer. I watched dozens of raid clips to help me understand raid mechanics for new fights where as in DDO anyone can jump into any raid and pretty much hack n slash their way through it. I often found myself reading forums for gear optimization, stat allocation and combat rotations for my characters. I hate to burst your bubble but combat is a lot more involved in WOW then in DDO. However I do like both styles for different reasons.
Just look at all the add-ons for WoW at Curse.com compared to DDO, not to mention all the resources such as WoWheroes.com, ElitestJerks.com, Tankspot.com, L2raid.com, WoWhead.com. It sure has a lot of support for a failed game you claim it to be! Here if there is an article printed about DDO it's pasted all over the forums like if it was a Christmas day parade.
For me it's more like all the failed WoW raiders come and play DDO, this is where they turn on auto attack or hold down the left mouse button and shine.
There is a clear difference in art style in both games, some like pretty shinny things others don't care. I fall into a place where game play and quality is a bigger factor then art style.
If you want real active combat, check out http://www.playneverwinter.com/, http://news.mmosite.com/content/2011-10-19/bless_is_another_unreal_engine_3_mmorpg_with_shini ng_graphics.shtml, http://www.guildwars2.com/en/, http://www.archeage.com/en/pds/media, http://tera.enmasse.com/ all these new games are based on real time action combat.
As for instant gratification, aren't all these games based on quest and reward?

I found wow raiding to be about a boring as it could get. Here push this key dont move and watch your cool down timer repeat. Or set up a bot to do it for you while you watched something on TV.

If you join a raid in DDO and just try and hack n slash your way through it then someone else is carrying you.

[porq]

Trying to decide if Uska is trolling or not. I'd lean more towards not as he is someone with 16k posts I imagine that he is a little attached to this game.



10 posts about how much he hates D3 among 70something replies, impressive indeed.

[Kielbasa]

Funny, I found raiding in WoW a lot more challenging then anything ddo has to offer. I watched dozens of raid clips to help me understand raid mechanics for new fights where as in DDO anyone can jump into any raid and pretty much hack n slash their way through it. I often found myself reading forums for gear optimization, stat allocation and combat rotations for my characters. I hate to burst your bubble but combat is a lot more involved in WOW then in DDO. However I do like both styles for different reasons.
Just look at all the add-ons for WoW at Curse.com compared to DDO, not to mention all the resources such as WoWheroes.com, ElitestJerks.com, Tankspot.com, L2raid.com, WoWhead.com. It sure has a lot of support for a failed game you claim it to be! Here if there is an article printed about DDO it's pasted all over the forums like if it was a Christmas day parade.
For me it's more like all the failed WoW raiders come and play DDO, this is where they turn on auto attack or hold down the left mouse button and shine.
There is a clear difference in art style in both games, some like pretty shinny things others don't care. I fall into a place where game play and quality is a bigger factor then art style.
If you want real active combat, check out http://www.playneverwinter.com/, http://news.mmosite.com/content/2011-10-19/bless_is_another_unreal_engine_3_mmorpg_with_shini ng_graphics.shtml, http://www.guildwars2.com/en/, http://www.archeage.com/en/pds/media, http://tera.enmasse.com/ all these new games are based on real time action combat.
As for instant gratification, aren't all these games based on quest and reward?

Sounds like you've never played a caster or a monk please comment again after you have done so. And trying to redirect people to neverwinter O.o oh that's rich. Seen the videos looks graphically nice but the marriage of cryptic and perfect world is going to be a perfect disaster. Cryptic does nothing but make bad mmos and perfect world does nothing but release ridiculously grindy mmos good luck. Also Tera is not active combat you have to stop moving every time you want to do something other than a basic attack, it plays pretty similar to runes of magic which I played a few years back. Nothing exciting or new to be found in Tera other than the graphics. Can't comment of guildwars2 or archeage since I've never played or seen gameplay of them.

Back to the original topic D3 hardly seems any better than the original Diablo which was great for its time. It just doesn't seems like they have done much to improve the game experience since the original. All you do is dungeon crawl for loot and gold. In DDO I can at least herd kobolds when I get bored of that. Oh yeah and there's puzzles, and levers, and traps. If all I wanted to do was kill mindless things for real world cash then yes I would go play D3 but since I want a richer gaming experience I'll continue to play ddo.

[Aaxeyu]

I found wow raiding to be about a boring as it could get. Here push this key dont move and watch your cool down timer repeat. Or set up a bot to do it for you while you watched something on TV.

If you join a raid in DDO and just try and hack n slash your way through it then someone else is carrying you.

WoW raiding might be boring (mostly because the combat system is horrible), but it is harder than DDO raiding.

[Elation]

WoW raiding might be boring (mostly because the combat system is horrible), but it is harder than DDO raiding.

Its not harder to raid in wow just more tedious.

[Aaxeyu]

Its not harder to raid in wow just more tedious.

In wotlk it was.

[Kabaon]

Normal has, and always will be, easy in any Diablo game. Always has been, always will be. The only reason Hell was so later on in D2's life was because you KNEW HOW TO PLAY and what to watch out for. And bots/hacks XD.

Seriously though, based on what has been revealed for D3 (Inferno mode) it's going to be a terribly difficult game, and lets not forget that you haven't seen all abilities, rune combos, and the vast majority of effects items receive (along with sets and uniques.... or legendarily as they are now called). To base the entire experience off of a few hours of gameplay is shortsighted.

I personally will be picking up the game because it feels like Diablo, and because I thorughly enjoyed my short amount of playtime. (Also my computer can run it XD)

*Edit* Also, what is with this Character Customization ****. In D1 and D2, all characters looked the same. I don't see why D3 should be any different. Each class has their own Origin story (For example, the Barbarian in D3 is the same one from D2, just 20 years older)

[...v...]

Sounds like you've never played a caster or a monk please comment again after you have done so. And trying to redirect people to neverwinter O.o oh that's rich. Seen the videos looks graphically nice but the marriage of cryptic and perfect world is going to be a perfect disaster. Cryptic does nothing but make bad mmos and perfect world does nothing but release ridiculously grindy mmos good luck. Also Tera is not active combat you have to stop moving every time you want to do something other than a basic attack, it plays pretty similar to runes of magic which I played a few years back. Nothing exciting or new to be found in Tera other than the graphics. Can't comment of guildwars2 or archeage since I've never played or seen gameplay of them.

Back to the original topic D3 hardly seems any better than the original Diablo which was great for its time. It just doesn't seems like they have done much to improve the game experience since the original. All you do is dungeon crawl for loot and gold. In DDO I can at least herd kobolds when I get bored of that. Oh yeah and there's puzzles, and levers, and traps. If all I wanted to do was kill mindless things for real world cash then yes I would go play D3 but since I want a richer gaming experience I'll continue to play ddo.

Cryptic studios was a branch in Atari which was sold to Perfect World Studios. I can not say how well they will do without consulting my crystal ball, but it's obvious they had some changes made internally and how it pans out remains to be seen.
D3 has a huge fan base and it's new and people want new games, don't forget variety is the spice of life and it's healthy. When it comes down to it in the end all these games are the same, just a carrot on a stick competing to take up your time in your relatively short life span. I can say with 100% honesty that Blizzard produces some real nice games that Turbine devs can only have wet dreams about.

[...v...]

WoW raiding might be boring (mostly because the combat system is horrible), but it is harder than DDO raiding.

I disagree, I can only dream of having raids like the ones in WoW in a DDO format. That is of course of Harry doesn't end up in the wall or bug out when you summon a monster.

[Aaxeyu]

I disagree, I can only dream of having raids like the ones in WoW in a DDO format. That is of course of Harry doesn't end up in the wall or bug out when you summon a monster.

How many HC raids did you complete then?

[Kielbasa]

Cryptic studios was a branch in Atari which was sold to Perfect World Studios. I can not say how well they will do without consulting my crystal ball, but it's obvious they had some changes made internally and how it pans out remains to be seen.
D3 has a huge fan base and it's new and people want new games, don't forget variety is the spice of life and it's healthy. When it comes down to it in the end all these games are the same, just a carrot on a stick competing to take up your time in your relatively short life span. I can say with 100% honesty that Blizzard produces some real nice games that Turbine devs can only have wet dreams about.

A bad game developer and a bad gaming studio do not all of a sudden make a good game. Neverwinter has very little chance of taking over the halmark for d and d in an mmo space. Cryptic has yet to make a good mmo in my opinion. Every perfect world mmo that I have played has been an unenjoyable grindy asian port. I know some people love the whole open world mmo spawn camp snoozefest which is what Neverwinter looks like form what I've seen so far. DDO succeeded going f2p because it is the exact opposite. Highly instanced and being able to get from point A to Z quickly is very nice. Every adventure pack puts you into a fun short campaign that isn't just pure combat. Adventures with floor puzzles like in Tempest Spine and chess puzzle in Enter the Kobold are some of my favorite quests. Sure blizzard has made some nice stuff their RTS games are a blast, far more enjoyable than wow or the diablo franchise. If all I wanted was a game that was pure combat I bet I would find diablo 3 as entertaining as you seem to find it.

[Elation]

I disagree, I can only dream of having raids like the ones in WoW in a DDO format. That is of course of Harry doesn't end up in the wall or bug out when you summon a monster.

Seroiusly go back to blizzard. Play wow.


Currently in this form i think the beta for D3 was not ready. They released to early.

[...v...]

How many HC raids did you complete then?

HC or do you mean regurgitated? I did a few hcs, nothing special about them. I was really disappointed in evon6 where they added some extra mobs to the bases to cc. For a game that is based on D&D I felt let down in the whole dragon raid experience. It was nothing more then a dragon bobbing it's head around like one of those car window pets.

[...v...]

A bad game developer and a bad gaming studio do not all of a sudden make a good game. Neverwinter has very little chance of taking over the halmark for d and d in an mmo space. Cryptic has yet to make a good mmo in my opinion. Every perfect world mmo that I have played has been an unenjoyable grindy asian port. I know some people love the whole open world mmo spawn camp snoozefest which is what Neverwinter looks like form what I've seen so far. DDO succeeded going f2p because it is the exact opposite. Highly instanced and being able to get from point A to Z quickly is very nice. Every adventure pack puts you into a fun short campaign that isn't just pure combat. Adventures with floor puzzles like in Tempest Spine and chess puzzle in Enter the Kobold are some of my favorite quests. Sure blizzard has made some nice stuff their RTS games are a blast, far more enjoyable than wow or the diablo franchise. If all I wanted was a game that was pure combat I bet I would find diablo 3 as entertaining as you seem to find it.

Did Turbine do something great that Cryptic didn't or Perfect Worlds? If you read about where ddo is heading and listen to the devs they are trying to make ddo feel like one World instead of the "snooze fest" loading screens.
Why did DDO have to fo F2P? The question in it self has an answer.
I do enjoy the puzzles in DDO for the first couple of times and at times when you have to rely on others I tend to hate them. Not everyone is puzzle savy.
WoW is a monster and it hold the king of mmos title and all other games are measured against its success. I really don't need anyone telling how bad they think it sucks, I know for myself it's a good fun polished game and it will hold a page in mmo history. In the mean time Turbine will go down in history as the company that delivered buggy games and their other successful mmo is modeled after WoW.

[Aaxeyu]

HC or do you mean regurgitated? I did a few hcs, nothing special about them. I was really disappointed in evon6 where they added some extra mobs to the bases to cc. For a game that is based on D&D I felt let down in the whole dragon raid experience. It was nothing more then a dragon bobbing it's head around like one of those car window pets.

You guys have the same avatar, confusing!

What did you disagree with exactly? That raiding in wow is harder than DDO or that raiding in wow is boring?

[EnjoyTheJourney]

This thread got me interested, so I went ahead and bought the D3 digital download and tried out the demo. It was very much a trip back to D2, but with the immediately noticeable positive differences of offering better visuals and automatic gold pick-up by going near the gold. It was very easy, much like wandering about Blood Moor in D2. Considering that's where my wizard is in the game, though, I'm not bothered by that.

It won't replace DDO, as it's a fundamentally different game. But, the demo was a lot of fun and I'm really looking forward to D3 now.

[...v...]

Seroiusly go back to blizzard. Play wow.


Currently in this form i think the beta for D3 was not ready. They released to early.

I will go back to WoW and try MoP and when GW2, NWN, The Secret Worlds, Arche Age comes out I will try them to.
I will not sit here and defend Turbine.

[Elation]

I will go back to WoW and try MoP and when GW2, NWN, The Secret Worlds, Arche Age comes out I will try them to.
I will not sit here and defend Turbine.

Thank you, and now you exit stage right. Quickly, now there ya go.

[Ovrad]

Currently in this form i think the beta for D3 was not ready. They released to early.

Cause that worked out so well for Duke Nukem... :D

[Bunker]

Apples vs. Oranges

[Nospheratus]

There is more customization in d3 than in d2. You will very quickly get over the illusion of vast amount of choices the d2 skill trees and attribute system gives.

I stoped reading halfway through this thread to say this:


LOL

[Nospheratus]

Currently in this form i think the beta for D3 was not ready. They released to early.
It doesn't matter if they waited another year or two. The choice to make D3 a dumbed down version of D2 was made a long long time ago.

Also, everything *looks* like it's made after wow, which is sad because it feels like the game is "talking" with you as if you were a 10 year old child... D1 and D2 had something dark about it, D3 has absolutely nothing of that.

I have played the beta I have to admit that the gameplay is quite fluid and good when there is no lag. If there is lag, you can't do anything - literaly!

Personally, I don't like it. I don't like how it looks, I don't like how it is presented and I think that the graphics quality is a bit disapointing sometimes even though this isn't a very important issue.



Overal, I may still buy the game to play with my friends. Not sure yet, considering how bad it is IMO.

[Aaxeyu]

I stoped reading halfway through this thread to say this:


LOL

What an insightful comment.

What people fail to understand about D3 is that just because you learn every ability your class have doesn't mean there is no customization. It's just different from D2 and DDO.


In D2 there were few builds per class, just take the best attack skill/spell and then take every synergy for it. Very simple, what was so great about it?

[Nospheratus]

What an insightful comment.

What people fail to understand about D3 is that just because you learn every ability your class have doesn't mean there is no customization. It's just different from D2 and DDO.
Doesn't mean that there is no customization, but it does mean that there is a lot less customization than in d2. Which is the oposite of what you said. It's also a good joke.


In D2 there were few builds per class, just take the best attack skill/spell and then take every synergy for it. Very simple, what was so great about it?
I have played a lot of D2 and never even roamed any forum for any build. Despite that, and that may amaze you, I have completed the game over and over and over on all difficulties. So, effectively, my custom gimp self-nerfed build was successful and therefore a viable choice. I had more than one character though, so I may have extremely lucky with all of them.

[Aaxeyu]

Doesn't mean that there is no customization, but it does mean that there is a lot less customization than in d2. Which is the oposite of what you said. It's also a good joke.

No it doesn't. When you have all the skills and runes unlocked there will be a ton of customization.



I have played a lot of D2 and never even roamed any forum for any build. Despite that, and that may amaze you, I have completed the game over and over and over on all difficulties. So, effectively, my custom gimp self-nerfed build was successful and therefore a viable choice. I had more than one character though, so I may have extremely lucky with all of them.

You don't have to look on the forums to figure out that the skill in the bottom of the tree is in 99% of the cases the best one.

[Nospheratus]

No it doesn't.
It doesn't mean that D2 has more customization than D3?


When you have all the skills and runes unlocked there will be a ton of customization.
And no you won't... Considering you will have AT MOST 6 skill simultaneously at any moment... And changing one skill gives it a one-time cooldown of 10(?) seconds... So, no, there is no real customization. From those skills, people like you (people that have a lot of dedication to the game - not a bad thing) will narrow them down to the "best" and everyone that checks any forum out will use only those.



You don't have to look on the forums to figure out that the skill in the bottom of the tree is in 99% of the cases the best one.
It's not the best in 99% of the cases.
It's only the best in 99% of the said "forum" builds.

Same with chosing where to spend the stat points. You can't even do that in D3, and in D2 you could. No, I didn't spend all points in vitality apart from the absolute minimum in STR for gear.


So, regardless of what you can say about how good the absolute min-max builds being the only viable (which is absolutely not true), you could actually chose in D2, in D3 you can't.


For example:
In DDO certain builds exist because there is choice. I'm sure you can name a lot more than me of those optimal, or near optimal builds that we can have here that would never exist if we weren't able to multiclass for example. Not to speak of the said "sub-optimal" that many people enjoy in so many different play-styles.

[Aaxeyu]

I suppose if you like to create bad builds diablo 2 had more to offer, but to those of us who min/max, diablo 3 offers more.



And no you won't... Considering you will have AT MOST 6 skill simultaneously at any moment... And changing one skill gives it a one-time cooldown of 10(?) seconds... So, no, there is no real customization

That doesn't even make sense.
Chosing the 6 skills (and runes) is the customization.
Just because it's not same kind of customization as in D2 doesn't mean it's not customization.

[Nospheratus]

I suppose if you like to create bad builds diablo 2 had more to offer, but to those of us who min/max, diablo 3 offers more.




That doesn't even make sense.
Chosing the 6 skills (and runes) is the customization.
Just because it's not same kind of customization as in D2 doesn't mean it's not customization.
I mean that as "only 6", because I clearly remember not having enough shortcut keys to fit all skills I wanted to use in D2.
Besides that, unless you select an "advanced mode", you are locked to the most basic setup.
Left click will always be skill a, b or c, Right click same thing. Keys 1 through 4 are locked too. You can't even chose how to use your own keyboard and mouse.

What's worse about this is: They are LOCKED depending on your level... The limitation is ridiculous...


TBH, not everyone will want to think about customization. Some people just want to sit infront of the pc and mindlessly click the mouse button until nothing moves and/or their number (level, gear, whatever) is at max.


I don't think that is a fundamentaly bad thing, even though it can be the reflex of some other really bad things.

[Aaxeyu]

I mean that as "only 6", because I clearly remember not having enough shortcut keys to fit all skills I wanted to use in D2.

Yeah but you need to put things in perspective. You had 2 shortcuts in D2, so what are you saying, that you had 3 skills you wanted to use?

It was rarely more than 4.

You use more skills more often in D3 than in D2.



Besides that, unless you select an "advanced mode", you are locked to the most basic setup.
Left click will always be skill a, b or c, Right click same thing. Keys 1 through 4 are locked too. You can't even chose how to use your own keyboard and mouse.

So what? Just select that mode then.
Why in the world would you complain about the simple mode when there is an advanced mode right there???



What's worse about this is: They are LOCKED depending on your level... The limitation is ridiculous...
LOL, because in D2 you had every skill at level 1, right? Right?

You D3 haters are so funny.




TBH, not everyone will want to think about customization. Some people just want to sit infront of the pc and mindlessly click the mouse button until nothing moves and/or their number (level, gear, whatever) is at max.

Then let them.

[MRMechMan]

Methinks I'll go reinstall PS:Torment next time I feel nostalgic, instead.

Hell yea!

[Nospheratus]

Yeah but you need to put things in perspective. You had 2 shortcuts in D2, so what are you saying, that you had 3 skills you wanted to use?

It was rarely more than 4.
It was rarely more than 4 skills? For you maybe. You clearly don't know everything about everyone.

I don't know about you, but i used a lot of skills, not just one or two. Perhaps it depends on the character, but it used to be like that.


You use more skills more often in D3 than in D2.
Hmm... no.
At best, with the same frequency.



So what? Just select that mode then.
Why in the world would you complain about the simple mode when there is an advanced mode right there???


LOL, because in D2 you had every skill at level 1, right? Right?

You D3 haters are so funny.
Uau... You really want me to type it all for you? Sure, I will...

Fact is: D3 is dumbed down.
The fact that there is an - almost hidden - option that allows you to select skills in a way other than the predetemined path shows how much effort was put into avoiding customization.

It's not about having the skills, it's about having a way to use them.

In D3, when you get a 4th skill you can only use 3 of them. Literaly... And it would be fine, but it's only a UI restriction. They don't allow you to use keys nr 2, 3, and 4...

I didn't check that out, but are those keys are "set in stone" as well? Left click, right click, keys 1-4.



You D3 haters are so funny.
I'm not a D3 hater - whatever that means. I have my opinion about it, which I stated - not fully though.

The fact that you are using such a statement, to me, shows how small your comprehension about other people's opinions and playstyles is.


Then let them.
Ofc I will. I have no problem with people's choices, never said otherwise either.
I'll return this one to you as well. "let them" have their opinions. Though, facts are facts.


All I did was speak about how dumbed down D3 is and how little choices there are. It is a shame tbh, it could be a great game. IMO it lacks in more than one aspect comparing to it's predecessor.
It will still be successful - from a sales PoV - because it looks good, it's from blizzard and it's predecessor had a lot of fans.

In any case, my point is still the same. The lack of customization and the obvious dumb down is a negative point for D3.

[Dawnsfire]

Well DDO wins by default for me. I spent the 3+ hours downloading the beta only to find out it doesn't support my video card.

[Aaxeyu]

It was rarely more than 4 skills? For you maybe. You clearly don't know everything about everyone.

I don't know about you, but i used a lot of skills, not just one or two. Perhaps it depends on the character, but it used to be like that.


Hmm... no.
At best, with the same frequency.

Some examples then please.




Uau... You really want me to type it all for you? Sure, I will...

Fact is: D3 is dumbed down.
The fact that there is an - almost hidden - option that allows you to select skills in a way other than the predetemined path shows how much effort was put into avoiding customization.

That there is an option to avoid customization only means that there is an option to have customization.



It's not about having the skills, it's about having a way to use them.

In D3, when you get a 4th skill you can only use 3 of them. Literaly... And it would be fine, but it's only a UI restriction. They don't allow you to use keys nr 2, 3, and 4...

What?? Did you not just complain about lack of customization. If you can use all skills all the time then you get less customization!
Since you don't have so many skills at low level there would be no choice about what skills to have ready at low levels, if the skill slots were not locked. Obviously, since the whole point of the system is to make players choose what skills to have ready, it's a good thing that the skill slots are locked.
So skill slots are a part of the character progress, what is wrong with that?



I'm not a D3 hater - whatever that means. I have my opinion about it, which I stated - not fully though.[/qoute]

Yes you are. It is obvious from your incoherent and ridiculously flawed arguments against it.



[QUOTE=Nospheratus;4419099]
All I did was speak about how dumbed down D3 is and how little choices there are. It is a shame tbh, it could be a great game. IMO it lacks in more than one aspect comparing to it's predecessor.
It will still be successful - from a sales PoV - because it looks good, it's from blizzard and it's predecessor had a lot of fans.

In any case, my point is still the same. The lack of customization and the obvious dumb down is a negative point for D3.

I suppose you could get a point for it being dumbed down. But what that means is just that they focused on the core parts of the game that people actually enjoy.
But you are simply wrong about customization.

[Truga]

You don't have to look on the forums to figure out that the skill in the bottom of the tree is in 99% of the cases the best one.

In 2 of the three trees the Sorceress had, the final skill at the bottom of the tree was pretty bad (low % extra damage), so I have no idea what you're talking about here. Fact is, D2 had an awesome build thing going on, much like DDO has, whereas for D3, Blizzard said explicitly that "everyone takes the same build as everyone else, so we're removing that".

[Aaxeyu]

In 2 of the three trees the Sorceress had, the final skill at the bottom of the tree was pretty bad (low % extra damage), so I have no idea what you're talking about here. Fact is, D2 had an awesome build thing going on, much like DDO has

No, the final skill was not bad in any sorc tree. There was 1-2 attack skills per tree that was worth using. Spamming one skill that you had taken all synergies for was most often the best way to go.
Fantastic customization!



whereas for D3, Blizzard said explicitly that "everyone takes the same build as everyone else, so we're removing that".

Exactly, in D2 everyone made the same build. That is what happens when the skills further down the tree is far better than the others. In D3 every skill is meant to be good, so the number of builds that people play will increase drastically.

They also removed the "saving skill points because if I use them now they will be useless when I get a new spell" factor.

[Nospheratus]

Some examples then please.
There's no need for that. People that have played D2 know from the top of their heads what they used with their favourite character:
Amazon
Necromancer
Barbarian
Sorceress
Paladin
Assassin
Druid

If you have played D2 (I assume you have since you compare D2 and D3) you know exactly. And the most interesting thing is that, depending on your choices you would focus on different skills...



That there is an option to avoid customization only means that there is an option to have customization.
No. There is no option to avoid customization of the gameplay/skill choice/stat points. There simply is no customization there, apart from the said runes system that isn't nearly as good in terms of customization comparing to D2.

BTW, if you know the last patch Blizzard released for D2, you know that all skills matter even if you don't use them activelly. While you can still choose to use them...


What?? Did you not just complain about lack of customization. If you can use all skills all the time then you get less customization!
Since you don't have so many skills at low level there would be no choice about what skills to have ready at low levels, if the skill slots were not locked. Obviously, since the whole point of the system is to make players choose what skills to have ready, it's a good thing that the skill slots are locked.
So skill slots are a part of the character progress, what is wrong with that?





I'm not a D3 hater - whatever that means. I have my opinion about it, which I stated - not fully though.

Yes you are. It is obvious from your incoherent and ridiculously flawed arguments against it.
Just because you are unable to accept an opinion or try to understand it, doesn't meant it's ridiculous or flawed. In any case, I accept that I may not be wording my opinion properly, since I'm not a native english speaker.


I suppose you could get a point for it being dumbed down. But what that means is just that they focused on the core parts of the game that people actually enjoy.
But you are simply wrong about customization.

You mean "some people actually enjoy", right?

[Truga]

No, the final skill was not bad in any sorc tree. There was 1-2 attack skills per tree that was worth using. Spamming one skill that you had taken all synergies for was most often the best way to go.
Fantastic customization!Have you even played the sorc? The final skills in fire and lightning trees were +20% damage or some **** like that. Barely even worth noting. You put a couple points in it and that's that.


Exactly, in D2 everyone made the same build. That is what happens when the skills further down the tree is far better than the others. In D3 every skill is meant to be good, so the number of builds that people play will increase drastically.

They also removed the "saving skill points because if I use them now they will be useless when I get a new spell" factor.

The only D2 character I've ever played extensively was the sorceress. I never had the same build, and I finished the game at least 20 times over. I played as tank, scythe melee, orb, blizzard, chain lightning, thunderstorm, fireball, meteor, hydra, blaze, crossbow (more like crossboring), and hybrids of these builds. Every single playthrough (except the crossbow) was as fun as any.

How exactly is this "everyone made the same build" when I alone had 10+?

And saving skill points was a part of a plan. Part of the fun. I want skills x, y, and z to be better than skills a b c and d. I'll save up points for that purpose. If I want skills a, b, c and d, I won't have to save skill points instead.

[Aaxeyu]

There's no need for that. People that have played D2 know from the top of their heads what they used with their favourite character:

No need to support your claim? Right.


If you have played D2 (I assume you have since you compare D2 and D3) you know exactly. And the most interesting thing is that, depending on your choices you would focus on different skills...

D2 is one of the games I have spent most time in.




No. There is no option to avoid customization of the gameplay/skill choice/stat points. There simply is no customization there, apart from the said runes system that isn't nearly as good in terms of customization comparing to D2.

Are you not reading? Selecting skills for the limited slots is customization.



BTW, if you know the last patch Blizzard released for D2, you know that all skills matter even if you don't use them activelly. While you can still choose to use them...

What are you talking about?



Just because you are unable to accept an opinion or try to understand it, doesn't meant it's ridiculous or flawed. In any case, I accept that I may not be wording my opinion properly, since I'm not a native english speaker.

No, it is ridiculous.



You mean "some people actually enjoy", right?

I didn't say "all".

[Aaxeyu]

Have you even played the sorc? The final skills in fire and lightning trees were +20% damage or some **** like that. Barely even worth noting. You put a couple points in it and that's that.

Ok, you CLEARLY have not played as much as you are saying.
Fire mastery is over +200% fire damage with some skillers, lightning mastery is over +300 damage%


So I call BS on the rest of your post.

[maddmatt70]

Funny, I found raiding in WoW a lot more challenging then anything ddo has to offer. I watched dozens of raid clips to help me understand raid mechanics for new fights where as in DDO anyone can jump into any raid and pretty much hack n slash their way through it. I often found myself reading forums for gear optimization, stat allocation and combat rotations for my characters. I hate to burst your bubble but combat is a lot more involved in WOW then in DDO. However I do like both styles for different reasons.
Just look at all the add-ons for WoW at Curse.com compared to DDO, not to mention all the resources such as WoWheroes.com, ElitestJerks.com, Tankspot.com, L2raid.com, WoWhead.com. It sure has a lot of support for a failed game you claim it to be! Here if there is an article printed about DDO it's pasted all over the forums like if it was a Christmas day parade.
For me it's more like all the failed WoW raiders come and play DDO, this is where they turn on auto attack or hold down the left mouse button and shine.
There is a clear difference in art style in both games, some like pretty shinny things others don't care. I fall into a place where game play and quality is a bigger factor then art style.
If you want real active combat, check out http://www.playneverwinter.com/, http://news.mmosite.com/content/2011-10-19/bless_is_another_unreal_engine_3_mmorpg_with_shini ng_graphics.shtml, http://www.guildwars2.com/en/, http://www.archeage.com/en/pds/media, http://tera.enmasse.com/ all these new games are based on real time action combat.
As for instant gratification, aren't all these games based on quest and reward?

Interesting commentary. There is definitely a budgetary limitation in the raiding experience that DDO can provide in comparison to WOW. Von6 is a great example of this. That is a very old raid that DDO instead of just letting the game past it by retrofitted because of its inability to produce more content. The dragon at the end is clearly not satisfactory and never has been satisfactory. There is also always been the issue of trying to give raiding content to all types of players.

The Lord of Blades is a step in the right direction. In terms of boss interaction, varied levels of difficulty, and general experience. The one major problem with the Lord of Blades is the one room fight aspect of the battle. For e.g. it would be fun if you had to split the raid party up and send some of the members of the party back up top to do some tasks while the rest of party continued fighting the Lord of Blades. What the party does up top affects the Lord of Blades reactions below. I have been wanting raids with that type of coordination for a while now. I would also like it to be even more difficult on its highest difficulty with a greater reward of course.

[Nospheratus]

<snip>
I have made my point. You understood my point, but are trying to get me to ... I don't know. Admit my opinion is wrong?

I'm not spending more time/energy with this subject.

Have a good day.

[Truga]

Ok, you CLEARLY have not played as much as you are saying.
Fire mastery is over +200% fire damage with some skillers, lightning mastery is over +300 damage%
Yes. However, the rule reduced return applies. Dipping more than 10 skill points into this is pretty dumb, unless you're trying to amp one or two specific spells.


So I call BS on the rest of your post.

Hahaha, oh wow. Let me guess, WoW is the pinnacle of character customization, yeah?

[Aaxeyu]

I have made my point. You understood my point, but are trying to get me to ... I don't know. Admit my opinion is wrong?

I'm not spending more time/energy with this subject.

Have a good day.

I'm trying to get you to understand that your view on the D3 skill system is wrong, because it is.

[Aaxeyu]

Yes. However, the rule reduced return applies. Dipping more than 10 skill points into this is pretty dumb, unless you're trying to amp one or two specific spells.

You only missed by a factor of 10.

Not amping one or two specific spells is pretty dumb. So it's pretty dumb to not put 20 skill points into them.




Hahaha, oh wow. Let me guess, WoW is the pinnacle of character customization, yeah?

lol, no wow is not better or worse than D2.

[Truga]

You only missed by a factor of 10.

Not amping one or two specific spells is pretty dumb. So it's pretty dumb to not put 20 skill points into them.Have you ever played the game on Hell difficulty, where every second enemy is immune to an element or two?


lol, no wow is not better or worse than D2.

Actually wow is the worst of the two. It doesn't even have customizable stats and bad excuses for skill trees. Or at least it did when I tried it.

[Aaxeyu]

Have you ever played the game on Hell difficulty, where every second enemy is immune to an element or two?

Yes. But bosses are not. It's them you spec for and mf.

I don't believe that you have played D2 very much.



Actually wow is the worst of the two. It doesn't even have customizable stats and bad excuses for skill trees. Or at least it did when I tried it.

Slightly worse perhaps.

[Truga]

Yes. But bosses are not. It's them you spec for and mf.

I don't believe that you have played D2 very much.

Oh, you're one of those people who spec for one boss, then grinds it until their fingers fall off. Well, I never did that. I made characters that could, at a reasonable rate, finish the entire game and clear any area on "players 8" on any difficulty. I never did get into boss farming thing, because... Well why bother?

So again, how did everyone make the same build, when I had 10+ myself, and only played one class?

[Aaxeyu]

Oh, you're one of those people who spec for one boss, then grinds it until their fingers fall off. Well, I never did that. I made characters that could, at a reasonable rate, finish the entire game and clear any area on "players 8" on any difficulty. I never did get into boss farming thing, because... Well why bother?

Really, "why bother farming in D2?" You got to be kidding me.
Why bother? Well, maybe because it was the whole point of D2 when played on ladder?
Farming bosses to get loot is the point of D2.



So again, how did everyone make the same build, when I had 10+ myself, and only played one class?

Because some skills are simply better than others? That is inherent in the tree structure.

[Truga]

Really, "why bother farming in D2?" You got to be kidding me.
Why bother? Well, maybe because it was the whole point of D2 when played on ladder?
Farming bosses to get loot is the point of D2.

So, let me recap:

A small amount of players that plays on this "ladder" thing farms a boss. They use similar (or even the same) builds to do it.

Everyone else plays however they want.

From this we conclude that everyone plays the same build. Am I the only one noticing something wrong with this?

Not to mention that ladder wipes every now and then, so again... What's the point?


Because some skills are simply better than others? That is inherent in the tree structure.

You obviously never saw my awesome static charge sorc.

[Templarion]

There seems to be a lot of debate if Diablo 3 is too easy.

I trust on Blizzard. I have been waiting for this game over 5 years and what I saw during Beta... I have to say they are doing things better than I ever believed they would. This game will be epic! Just check this, it is less than 2 minutes long:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0F2wPZWdYk

If even half of those promises are fulfilled, I am more than satisfied. Also, please, considering that the game really has Hardcore mode for those who really want to ramp the difficulty up.

PS. I actually got myself killed even during the beta. It was because I lowered my guards for a couple of seconds against Leoric.
PPS. However, I was also able to run the beta (1/3rd of the 1st Act) bare hands and nude with my friend and kill Leoric. Then I did not lower my guard at any time and that was **** fun.

[Aaxeyu]

So, let me recap:

A small amount of players that plays on this "ladder" thing farms a boss. They use similar (or even the same) builds to do it.

Everyone else plays however they want.

From this we conclude that everyone plays the same build. Am I the only one noticing something wrong with this?

Not to mention that ladder wipes every now and then, so again... What's the point?

Sigh...
Where did you get that a small amount of players play ladder from?

[Truga]

Sigh...
Where did you get that a small amount of players play ladder from?

The only people left in D2 right now are obviously the hardcores that play ladder. It's the same in every old game.

Back in the day, when people like me still played, ladder was the minority. Not to mention constant ladder resets also drove away a lot of casuals in the first place.

[Aaxeyu]

The only people left in D2 right now are obviously the hardcores that play ladder. It's the same in every old game.

Back in the day, when people like me still played, ladder was the minority. Not to mention constant ladder resets also drove away a lot of casuals in the first place.

Well, I am glad that Blizzard caters to the hardcores then.

[Truga]

Well, I am glad that Blizzard caters to the hardcores then.

I think you're in for a nasty surprise with Diablo 3, sir.

Oh and, I and my "casual" friends still play D2. We just do it off the bnet, where we can use things like expanded stash (diablo stash sucks so much it's not even funny) and can play each-other's characters.

[Trasak]

Some of the arguments in this thread are a bit odd and full of people fervently stating their opinions. There are a few facts that we can go on.

Diablo 2 went to level 99 and you ended up with I think 107 or so build points, can't remember exactly how many quest points you got. Those points were spent on trees to improve abilities in those trees. If you really wanted to you could put one point in each skill but your damage would be really low. After patch 1.11 almost all skills had one synergy or another so you would pick a family of abilities and put most of your points in those skills and a few others that were nearly fully effective with low points. What you ended up with was 4-5 hell level effective abilities and a hand full of situational ones where gear switching as some times required.

In D2 each class, after many patches and an expansion, had 4-6 builds that took up 80% of the points available. That is alot of customation, say 42 total builds that could kill hell Baal, but its not an infinate number as nastalgia would suggest.

D3 on the other hand is brand new and only the freebee demo is available for play with internal limitations on what is available. Initially you only have a few of your skills and the default UI mode is "help me im a noob" mode, the first time I played a druid in D2 I wish someone told me that lots of point in Raven was not a good build.

The real customation in D3 is intended to be the runes, which I am not sure are even available in the beta. The runes rather than just adding damage factors to abilities will add truely different functions to the abilities. The runes are supposed to do things like add push back to the wizards beam attack or stun to the barbarians cleave or blindness to the demon hunters barage. We have not even seen the range of options available in raw skills yet much less the crazy combinations that are available.

I was a little less than thrilled with the skill switching in combat consept but the difference between doing it in town and in the field is relatively minor as you could just run back, change, then return. It would be time consuming but it could be done. What does not change is what runes you have attached to your skills and if you choose to remove them it cannot be used for another skill. Last I heard the runes were not destroyed when removed just keyed to that ability. By changing skills in combat though you will be able to change your tactics when confronted with a difficult champion that your standard skills cant handle or a boss that is immune to one form of attack or another. This is not really that different from gear switching to use the skill that you put your free 20 points in in D2.

Sometimes talking about the merits of different video games, even by the same game house, is more volitile than November Politics.

[Aaxeyu]

I think you're in for a nasty surprise with Diablo 3, sir.

Did we not just agree that for non-casuals the customization in D3 is better than in D2?

[Truga]

Sometimes talking about the merits of different video games, even by the same game house, is more volitile than November Politics.Indeed.

The runes are cool, GW2 is doing the same, but with weapons. But I still don't see how adding something to a skill is character customization at the level older games had. All wizards will have the beam skills, and all of them will have access to all the runes (as long as they can get them). Therefore, no customization. You get everything as long as you grind enough.

Did we not just agree that for non-casuals the customization in D3 is better than in D2?I'm a part-time casual. I like competition, but after a while I get tired of it and move on to make _interesting_ builds that might not be the best for task XYZ, but are fun to play and can still faceroll through content at a decent pace.

This will not exist in D3. Every character will be the same.

Edit: And no, new customization, as far as I can understand, will be completely random. If you get good runes, cool. If you don't, byebye ladder leader title!

[Trasak]

Indeed.

The runes are cool, GW is doing the same. But I still don't see how adding something to a skill is character customization at the level older games had. All wizards will have the beam skills, and all of them will have access to all the runes (as long as they can get them). Therefore, no customization. You get everything as long as you grind enough.

I got the feeling like you could add pushback, penetration, change to a different type of damage, or makes the target explode when they die. You could only pick one effect to add to the beam attack not all 4, though I guess you could have all the runes in your limited bags and switch out which I believe has a cost. Btw I am totaly making up the effects as I have intentionally been ignoring any specifics until the game is one the shelves as Blizzard is apt to remove and add tons in the final stages of beta but the effects are all in that vein.

[Aaxeyu]

Indeed.

The runes are cool, GW2 is doing the same, but with weapons. But I still don't see how adding something to a skill is character customization at the level older games had. All wizards will have the beam skills, and all of them will have access to all the runes (as long as they can get them). Therefore, no customization. You get everything as long as you grind enough.
I'm a part-time casual. I like competition, but after a while I get tired of it and move on to make _interesting_ builds that might not be the best for task XYZ, but are fun to play and can still faceroll through content at a decent pace.

This will not exist in D3. Every character will be the same.

Just no. Every character will not be the same. Just by saying that you show that you do not understand the system.
Get back when you do, will you?



Edit: And no, new customization, as far as I can understand, will be completely random. If you get good runes, cool. If you don't, byebye ladder leader title!

You clearly have not even tested D3, so maybe you should just stop pretending that you know anything about it?

[porq]

The force is strong in this thread.

[Truga]

Just no. Every character will not be the same. Just by saying that you show that you do not understand the system.
Get back when you do, will you?

You clearly have not even tested D3, so maybe you should just stop pretending that you know anything about it?

I've read pretty much everything there is to read on it. There is no character customization, there is only different sets of equipments and runes.

Runes can do pretty much anything to a skill from adding it an effect to completely changing how it works (as far as I could see). High level runes will be rare.

As long as you have the inventory space and/or cash to buy things off the auction (and auction will trade in real cash too, so ingame gold farming ability doesn't really matter), you can make your character into any build.

Therefore, any character can be any build in minutes. It's not necessarily bad, but...

In short: character customization has been replaced by gear customization, rather than being complemented by it.

[Aaxeyu]

I've read pretty much everything there is to read on it.

And you still don't know how the runes works?



There is no character customization, there is only different sets of equipments and runes.

That is still wrong. The customization comes from selecting the skills you use and what runes to use.



High level runes will be rare.

You must be confusing them with D2 runes.



As long as you have the inventory space and/or cash to buy things off the auction (and auction will trade in real cash too, so ingame gold farming ability doesn't really matter), you can make your character into any build.

Therefore, any character can be any build in minutes. It's not necessarily bad, but...

So?

[Truga]

So?

It's not character customization when it's gear customization is it?

[Aaxeyu]

It's not character customization when it's gear customization is it?

What the hell are you talking about?

[Truga]

What the hell are you talking about?

I rest my case.

[Aaxeyu]

I rest my case.

lol. It's for the best I guess, you can only say so much to attack a game that you never even played and when you don't even understand how basic things like runes works.

Ridiculous.

Hint: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/4475014/Skill_and_Rune_Changes-2_18_2012

Next time you maybe shouldn't assume that you know more about a game you don't play than the one who actually play it.

[Truga]

lol. It's for the best I guess, you can only say so much to attack a game that you never even played and when you don't even understand how basic things like runes works.

Ridiculous.

Hint: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/4475014/Skill_and_Rune_Changes-2_18_2012

Next time you maybe shouldn't assume that you know more about a game you don't play than the one who actually play it.

Well thanks for the link. I didn't know they changed that. You could've said something about that, though.

That said, 6 skill slots? Now I'm sure I won't be playing. It's just a non-MMO version of GW2... :<

And still not exactly customization if you have access to everything at all times...

[Aaxeyu]

Well thanks for the link. I didn't know they changed that. You could've said something about that, though.

I told you that you didn't know how runes worked.



That said, 6 skill slots? Now I'm sure I won't be playing. It's just a non-MMO version of GW2... :<

Huh?



And still not exactly customization if you have access to everything at all times...

Yes it is.

[Truga]

Yes it is.


I rest my case.

This. Having the same character as everyone else at a distance of a few mouse clicks isn't character customization. I don't know what kind of world you live in, but in mine it isn't.

Anyway, I'm going to bed now. We'll continue this tomorrow.

And I knew how runes worked before they changed them. If you said they changed them I'd know what you were talking about. You just said I didn't know.

[Aaxeyu]

This. Having the same character as everyone else at a distance of a few mouse clicks isn't character customization. I don't know what kind of world you live in, but in mine it isn't.

Anyway, I'm going to bed now. We'll continue this tomorrow.

Why isn't it? We must mean different things when we say 'customization'.



And I knew how runes worked before they changed them. If you said they changed them I'd know what you were talking about. You just said I didn't know.

I didn't know how runes worked before they changed them. I only knew that what you were talking about was not correct, so I googled some and found that page.

[Elation]

It doesn't matter if they waited another year or two. The choice to make D3 a dumbed down version of D2 was made a long long time ago.

Also, everything *looks* like it's made after wow, which is sad because it feels like the game is "talking" with you as if you were a 10 year old child... D1 and D2 had something dark about it, D3 has absolutely nothing of that.

I have played the beta I have to admit that the gameplay is quite fluid and good when there is no lag. If there is lag, you can't do anything - literaly!

Personally, I don't like it. I don't like how it looks, I don't like how it is presented and I think that the graphics quality is a bit disapointing sometimes even though this isn't a very important issue.



Overal, I may still buy the game to play with my friends. Not sure yet, considering how bad it is IMO.

I agree with ya not much i like about the game, but i do wish them well hope they have some success with it.

[Uska]

Why isn't it? We must mean different things when we say 'customization'.



I didn't know how runes worked before they changed them. I only knew that what you were talking about was not correct, so I googled some and found that page.

you must have a different meaning than anyone else then when it comes to customization then it means having a choice to make a character that is not the same as everyone else's with the auto leveling you dont in d3 and I wouldnt call the rune thing true customization but I am more particular about that then some

[Aaxeyu]

you must have a different meaning than anyone else then when it comes to customization then it means having a choice to make a character that is not the same as everyone else's with the auto leveling you dont in d3 and I wouldnt call the rune thing true customization but I am more particular about that then some

Still not seeing it. There will be a huge number of skill/rune combinations for every class, and most of them will be viable because it's not a tree-like system where only the highest level skills are good.
So you won't be using the same character as everyone else.

[Uska]

Still not seeing it. There will be a huge number of skill/rune combinations for every class, and most of them will be viable because it's not a tree-like system where only the highest level skills are good.
So you won't be using the same character as everyone else.

Doesnt really matter to me wont be playing wouldnt even if it was free its not enough different than d2 was in game play to make it worth while for a sub when ddo is down I'll just play my guitar in those periods now

Not saying it sux just that does for me

[Aaxeyu]

Doesnt really matter to me wont be playing wouldnt even if it was free its not enough different than d2 was in game play to make it worth while for a sub when ddo is down I'll just play my guitar in those periods now

Not saying it sux just that does for me

Whatever. You are free to dislike the game as much as you want.

[Uska]

Whatever. You are free to dislike the game as much as you want.

Oh I do but still say there is nearly zero customization but thats not really that important if people are having fun playing.

[Aaxeyu]

Oh I do but still say there is nearly zero customization but thats not really that important if people are having fun playing.

Well, you are still factually incorrect about that.

[Celastelin]

I think what people are saying is that for the choices you make when you choose what skills you want, you potentially lock yourself out of skills you could have possibly chosen from. So as a sorceress when you go down the lightning tree, you in a sense commit to that rather than committing to for example the ice tree. This is what makes 2 different sorceresses ... different.

In D3 you get access to every rune you need when you need when you unlock them. However you can choose what you need as all the runes become available once you get them. There is no action/consequence when you choose the abilities that you do.

Anyways all of that is just a small tidbit of why I dislike the game. Blizzard teased and tormented us with this game for over 10 years. We all know that a company like Blizzard can make this game in 2 years tops. They have all the money they need. They were just waiting until the cash cow that is WoW becomes less of a cash cow.

Now what happens we get a single player game, or what was designed as a single player game as online only. The main reason for this likely is that they wanted to avoid piracy. Blizzard could have easily stood to have the game pirated as a single player only game and sold the game's online features as part of the game itself. One draw that Blizzard assumes is a draw is that you can spend real live money on in game items. Another cash cow. :)

[Warinx]

Btw, here is a great video explaining choices in video games: http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/choice-and-conflict

Excellent points templarion, and +1 rep for showing me that video. It really cements and gives us the tools needed to discuss choices in games. Calculations, decisions, incomplete information problem, and incomparables.

[Truga]

Excellent points templarion, and +1 rep for showing me that video. It really cements and gives us the tools needed to discuss choices in games. Calculations, decisions, incomplete information problem, and incomparables.

The problem is, choice is something that should matter on the long run. If it doesn't it's not really choice, it's just the illusion of choice. Same with character customization. A character you built yourself should be unique. Instead, here we have a system which is the same as the Guild Wars system was, if you can remember that. As long as you weren't in a combat instance, you had the ability to load any template (build) you wanted. For example: http://gw.gamependium.com/tools/builds/show/8528

I used this build pretty much all the time in guild wars, as were probably a couple more people. That said, nothing ever stopped anyone from simply loading this template at any time and running with it. It's not character customization, it's.. I don't know what to call it.

Character customization is what D&D does, it's what Fallout, and so many of the older games do. You make choices when building your character and you need to live with those choices. You can't just swap everything out when you hit an encounter that your build is bad for (say, fire resistant enemies on a fire elementalist), you need to find other ways to get around it, not just load a different template and breeze through it.

@Aaxeyu, Skill Runes used to be called just Runes in the earlier builds, and were random drops, with higher level runes being rather rare. I guess even Blizzard figured out that making people's access to different skills depend on RNG wasn't a good idea.

[pocki666]

i've also played the d3 open beta last weekend, and i have to say that i liked it a lot. i'm not going to try and explain why or whatever, because everyone's taste differs, even if we all like ddo :)

on the matter of choices and builds there's something that i would like to put into numbers for you, even though i believe i'm bad at math myself.

i opened the skill calculator for the barbarian, and looked at the number of skills/spells you can choose for each of the six slots and the runes. now the runes are 5 for every skill/spell, so that's easy to compute. now there are 4 skills with 4 choices and 2 with 3 choices. so we have 20 different skills/spells for slot 1 (4x5) as well as three others and 15 different skills/spells for 2 of the slots.

that alone makes 36 million different ways to use skills on a barbarian, and that doesn't consider the 3 out of 16 passive skills that put that number into the billions. other classes have more different combination (i believe the wizard has most of them) and some have less, so the number varies

now if the choices you make are permanent, that would mean you would probably delete a very large number of characters before you come across a build that is viable in inferno difficulty, because you might very well need that defensive spell/skill you didn't take up to hell difficulty because you didn't need it.

i personally would rather play the four other classes that reroll the same class over and over till i found the build i like and is viable. i don't see changing skills/spells and runes as dumbing down the game, it just makes you more flexible, just the way a wizard and cleric can just switch spells at a shrine as opposed to a sorc and a favored soul.

also i find the "diversity of characters" particularly funny, because ddo is also a game where people tend to copy builds other people came up with. don't get me wrong, i'm not critizing that, i just find it natural. also if i don't need a character in a game to make me feel unique, because i am unique, and so are you...

[Truga]

The amount of possible build permutations in DDO is even larger, and so was in Diablo2. Do you reroll the same class 15 billion times, or do you make a build you think will work nice?

[Aaxeyu]

The problem is, choice is something that should matter on the long run. If it doesn't it's not really choice, it's just the illusion of choice. Same with character customization. A character you built yourself should be unique.

In the long run, in D2 , you could just reroll your character. Does that mean D2 didn't have choice?
Also, that definition of choice is wrong and just something you came up with yourself.

The uniqueness of the character comes the skills and runes it uses. There will be more options to make a unique character in D3 than in D2 when you figure out that, in D2, if you don't spend your very limited skill points boosting one or two skills that are preferably as far down the tree as possible you will have a subpar character.

Just because there are lots of choices doesn't mean there are lots of meaningful choices.


The amount of possible build permutations in DDO is even larger, and so was in Diablo2. Do you reroll the same class 15 billion times, or do you make a build you think will work nice?

I won't compare it to DDO, but the amount of builds that a min/maxer would actually build is much greater in D3 than D2.

[Truga]

I won't compare it to DDO, but the amount of builds that a min/maxer would actually build is much greater in D3 than D2.

A min/maxer will build one build and one build only: the build excel told him is best.

I would know, I'm an EVE player.

[pocki666]

The amount of possible build permutations in DDO is even larger, and so was in Diablo2.

yeah, i know that the possible build permutations are larger because you can take feats that make absolutely no sense for your class(es) and you can take class combinations that contradict each other, and you have more than twice the classes you have than d3 has.

lots of ways to make a gimpy character don't make a game great, it's the different ways to make your character good that make a (rpg) game great.


Do you reroll the same class 15 billion times, or do you make a build you think will work nice?

that is exactly the point, i don't reroll a class 15 billion times, and of course i will make the build that i believe will work nice. it may very well be a totally different build for normal difficulty than it is for nightmare, hell and inferno difficulty.

and i don't want to find out that my build will just not survive hell or inferno because i don't have something that is required or something i have is not good enough. this is the point where you'd need to reroll if it were like it was in diablo 2. you got married to a skill but you can't divorce it even though it's just not working out. i would know, i'm an eve player too...

[Truga]

and i don't want to find out that my build will just not survive hell or inferno because i don't have something that is required or something i have is not good enough.
And this is, I think we can both agree, bad game design. Requiring something very specific to proceed and not allowing alternate paths (even at somewhat higher time investment, but that won't matter to a non-min/maxer) is just plain bad. It's also why out of all my time in D2 (and that's a lot of time), I played hell least. It only allowed a couple of fun builds to work.

It's like traps in DDO. I like them very much, and they're very D&D, but having a trap you can't pass at all without a trapper is the same kind of bad design. Luckily, these are rare in DDO, but in D2, having certain kinds of builds meant you were locked out of Hell altogether.


i would know, i'm an eve player too...
Then you will know what makes games like EVE and Guild Wars so awesome. It's not the fact that you can change skills (fittings) at will, it's the fact that there's literally hundreds of skills (modules) and thousands of permutations that actually work well enough to get you through whatever you might be doing, and thinking out of the box often has surprising consequences.

D3 seems to have roughly ~30 active skills and half that passive skills per class, which seems a bit low to me. Unless runes really change the behaviour of a lot of skills completely, I don't see there being too much variation at all... It feels kinda like Magicka. There's like a 1000 spells available, but most are more of the same ~50 base spells, with a minor effect added on.

Still, skill runes are miles better than the random drop skill runes they had planned before. I want D3 to succeed, but at the current rate, it just looks like a non-MMO version of GW2.

I'll probably go play GW2 instead. RO and DDO spoiled me. I like my hotkeys now. I like having >10, 20, even 30 skills available at the same time, to be used whenever. GW2 is going to allow that via weapon swapping it seems, so I'll definitely take a look at that. Very disappointed about the distinct lack of free open world PVP in GW2 though. The thing they delivered is vastly different to the thing they were promising early on. Oh well, for that there's always EVE, I guess.

[Lleren]

I'll probably go play GW2 instead. RO and DDO spoiled me. I like my hotkeys now. I like having >10, 20, even 30 skills available at the same time, to be used whenever. GW2 is going to allow that via weapon swapping it seems, so I'll definitely take a look at that. Very disappointed about the distinct lack of free open world PVP in GW2 though. The thing they delivered is vastly different to the thing they were promising early on. Oh well, for that there's always EVE, I guess.

Well, a server that could kill its own players would be at a distinct disadvantage vs other servers during World Vs World Vs World pvp. That bit sounds a lot like a reboot of the Dark Age of Camelot 3 sided pvp system. That one can level and gear up entirely in PvP, or so the claimed goal is, also appears to me to be a thing whose time has more then come.

Mind you, I don't expect to be playing much pvp at first.

[grayham]

Is this a good place to say that UK pre-order for the digital version of this is £45 GBP.

45 quid...... Can I say it one more time? Ok. 45 Pounds sterling. Digital. No DVD/store overheads etc.

Ouch.

[Truga]

Mind you, I don't expect to be playing much pvp at first.

I personally very much enjoy spontaneous PVP. The kind that happens in EVE when you're out, roaming. Suddenly, blob! The lack of said PVP is a disappointment, but since most of the game looks fun from a PVE point of view, I think I'll enjoy it anyway.

The fact that they don't have what WoW clones keep doing now (UI addons and/or full combat logs) is also a big plus. Now I haven't played SWTOR in a while, but I was going to resub once I got burnt out on TRing to take a break from DDO again (and remind myself why DDO owns). Then, today, I discovered http://www.torkount.com/. Now I probably won't resub, unless I get enough close friends to play to form a full party. Playing with pubbies when they have access to everything your character does ever is a nightmare.

[Lleren]

I personally very much enjoy spontaneous PVP. The kind that happens in EVE when you're out, roaming. Suddenly, blob! The lack of said PVP is a disappointment, but since most of the game looks fun from a PVE point of view, I think I'll enjoy it anyway.

The fact that they don't have what WoW clones keep doing now (UI addons and/or full combat logs) is also a big plus. Now I haven't played SWTOR in a while, but I was going to resub once I got burnt out on TRing to take a break from DDO again (and remind myself why DDO owns). Then, today, I discovered http://www.torkount.com/. Now I probably won't resub, unless I get enough close friends to play to form a full party. Playing with pubbies when they have access to everything your character does ever is a nightmare.

Ah surprise PvP while leveling or questing. I go afk to often anymore to play games with that feature, and safe areas pretty much ruin that feature in a game as some just use them to run in and out of for annoyance factor.

[Aaxeyu]

And this is, I think we can both agree, bad game design. Requiring something very specific to proceed and not allowing alternate paths (even at somewhat higher time investment, but that won't matter to a non-min/maxer) is just plain bad. It's also why out of all my time in D2 (and that's a lot of time), I played hell least. It only allowed a couple of fun builds to work.

That is what they are fixing in D3. Their solution is alot better than just making the game easier.

If you think about what you just said then you must surely see why we like the new skill system.

[Warinx]

It's not character customization, it's.. I don't know what to call it.
I think you're talking about persistence here and not choice. Of course it's a choice whether to go kill diablo with that spec or the other.

Persistent characters is another matter, I like that aswell because you get the reputation for being a good tank etc. I think in diablo 3 however that will be more up to gear.

[Truga]

That is what they are fixing in D3. Their solution is alot better than just making the game easier.

I get and understand that. I still think that particularly bad builds shouldn't be able to finish the game on hardest difficulty, and that most builds should be able to finish the game via smart use of the abilities they chose on their way up.

Like, say, fire sorc in D2 was pretty bad for almost everything in higher difficulties (though it did rarely shine). The amount of fire resistant/immune enemies was not even funny (hi DDO). They could have made it so that you get to use your fire in ways other than direct fire damage, like say, putting a point into ice spike and then exploding fireballs next to frozen enemies, converting your fireball damage to blunt damage when they hit the wall/other enemies. It's might be tedious for some, but I love small things like this, where through smart combination of suboptimal skills get you through encounters your character isn't built for.

Anything like that at all would be pretty awesome. Instead, we simply get to swap skills when we encounter an enemy we can't destroy with our current loadout. On one hand, this allows Blizzard to make the game harder, because they don't need to balance it for "lesser" builds ("they can just swap to another skill", the dev thought, and made act X a fire-immune area), on the other hand, certain encounters/areas will be impossible with certain skill loadouts, effectively pigeonholing people into builds they don't like, if they decide to play on higher difficulties.

In the end, the result is quite similar, but with less consequence for choices and planning (or lack thereof) made on your way up.

[Aaxeyu]

I don't think there will be immune monsters. Can be wrong though.

[Truga]

Yeah hopefully Blizz learned from past mistakes. Having enemies immune to two of the three elements on Hell was pretty dumb. I remember my first runs through nightmare and hell with a meteor sorc. It was a pain to say the least, and at least meteor has some physical damage hanged on to it...

[Absolute-Omniscience]

A min/maxer will build one build and one build only: the build excel told him is best.

I would know, I'm an EVE player.

Actually, if you had any gaming knowledge you'd be aware of a game called Guild Wars. It was quite popular, especially on the competitive scene. The thing here was that you had about 100 skills, but could only use 8 at a time (ring any bells). By your logic, there should only be one good build for each class that all min / maxers use. Correct?
Contrary to that belief there were a *vast* amount of different builds used on the different classes. There were 55 hp monks using a skill that made everything deal a maximum of 10% of their hp. D3 is aiming for the same thing, (and succeeding as far as I've seen). That is, if you have a flipload of balanced skills there won't be a "best" build. There'll certainly be bad ones, but my (very) educated guess is that there will be at least 4 *super* builds for each class, probably more. Which is more than there ever was in D2, or ddo for that matter.
In d2 there were about 2 for each character.
Amazon - Multi shot + piercing or lighting spear thingy (2 skills used + buffs)
Sorcerer - Frozen orb, blizzard or fire meteor. ( 1(2 if fire) skill used + buffs)
Paladin - Hammer or Smite ( 1 skill used + buffs)
Barb - Frenzy or whirlwind (1 skill used + buffs)
Druid - Fury, fire claws or hurricane (1 skill used + buffs)
Assassin - Trap or pheonix ( 1 skill used (2 if pheonix) + buffs)
Necro - Poison nova or bone spirit (2-3 skills used + buffs)

And Enigma usage for all those so +1 for all assuming you play like a powergamer and boss farm.

Sure for casuals there were a great deal of choice, but there are a great deal of choices in D3 as well. At least as many builds, even for a casual.

But the biggest thing that's so great about the new skill system is the fact that you'll be using six skills consistenly. Instead of a 2-3.

You may hate it or dislike it as much as you want, but when obviously false "facts" or assumptions are posted I feel encouraged to reply.

[Truga]

Actually, if you had any gaming knowledge you'd be aware of a game called Guild Wars. It was quite popular, especially on the competitive scene. The thing here was that you had about 100 skills, but could only use 8 at a time (ring any bells). By your logic, there should only be one good build for each class that all min / maxers use. Correct?
Contrary to that belief there were a *vast* amount of different builds used on the different classes. There were 55 hp monks using a skill that made everything deal a maximum of 10% of their hp.
I ran a dervish variant of this build. This doesn't change the fact that this was the only build efficient for end-game solo farming on a big number of classes. So yes, a min/maxer will use one build and one build only. In guild wars, you had the freedom of using one build for doing something and another build for doing something else, if your usual best build didn't hold out (namely, enchantment stripping). As for it being popular on the competitive scene, the builds in PVP rotated purely depending on meta-game. FOTM was so prominent that if you didn't roll it you simply wouldn't be competitive at the higher end. Every group _needed_ FOTM counters to not lose, and it needed FOTM to win, because the non-FOTM skill sets weren't powerful enough to destroy the enemy, after you had your FOTM counters in your group.

Like I said, I'd much rather see people be able to use alternate tactics when they encounter something they can't faceroll with their current skill-set, rather than just having to swap some skills and continue facerolling.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I ran a dervish variant of this build. This doesn't change the fact that this was the only build efficient for end-game solo farming on a big number of classes. So yes, a min/maxer will use one build and one build only. In guild wars, you had the freedom of using one build for doing something and another build for doing something else, if your usual best build didn't hold out (namely, enchantment stripping). As for it being popular on the competitive scene, the builds in PVP rotated purely depending on meta-game. FOTM was so prominent that if you didn't roll it you simply wouldn't be competitive at the higher end. Every group _needed_ FOTM counters to not lose, and it needed FOTM to win, because the non-FOTM skill sets weren't powerful enough to destroy the enemy, after you had your FOTM counters in your group.

Like I said, I'd much rather see people be able to use alternate tactics when they encounter something they can't faceroll with their current skill-set, rather than just having to swap some skills and continue facerolling.

There were still a great variety of different fotms. And counters to those. Sure, on the mid-skill level range of PvP everyone kinda used the same builds (you still saw at least two different a class), but at the really high skill level ranges you saw very obscure stuff working really well.

In other words, you like where you are challanged because your build isn't designed for it, and other than that it is easy. I like it when you have to figure out what the best is, and even after doing that, it is pure player skill that takes you through the encounter, not whether you picked the wrong skill or not.
You keep bringing up time as a factor in customization. I.e. a d3 character can swap right there, a d2 has to either reroll or find a way around it. Say if the D2 player rerolls and gets back to exactly where he was and it takes about 1 week. The only difference here between D2 and D3 swapping is that it takes longer in D2. That does not mean that it has more customization. Time is not an existant factor in customization. Having 6 good skills that you use all the time means that you require more skill to fully play your character. And it means that it's about strategy instead of know-which-skill-is-the-best. That is, which 6 skill and runes synergize the best for my playstyle or this encounter. Instead of which skills buff this skill the most so I can run around using this and only this spell. Think frozen orb, you only level ice bolt (and you have to if you want damage) in order to get more damage to frozen orb, not to actually use it.

[Truga]

In other words, you like where you are challanged because your build isn't designed for it, and other than that it is easy. I like it when you have to figure out what the best is, and even after doing that, it is pure player skill that takes you through the encounter, not whether you picked the wrong skill or not.

No. I like it when choices when making a build have consequences, and when encounters are doable in more than one way.

It's the player skill and intellect that matter when your character doesn't have the best possible answer to any situation. The consequences of taking skill x instead of y should be felt during the game. At one time by having less problems with certain encounters by having the right skill, and at another time by _changing tactics_, so that you can work with the skills you choose, because the usual faceroll approach doesn't work out.

Swapping out to the best build for an encounter is what makes a game easy, because no matter how much "player skill" it takes, the game will be completable with any and every character. Act 3 chapter 2? Load this template.

If you built something that facerolls the entire game, but can't faceroll a random boss somewhere midway, you lost at the game. Now this shouldn't happen on lower difficulties, but yes, it should happen on higher ones. And a more tactical approach should get you through such encounters, where you build can't just power through. An approach where you still use your own skills, but use them in more creative ways.

If you can just swap out the skills for that one boss, what's the point, though? Might as well give everyone every skill at any time and be done with it. There will be very little difference from what "customization" exists now. And I personally much prefer just having access to everything over some fake customization.

Ed: And don't get me wrong, I'd always roll weird builds in GW PVP, and people would usually die in masses, because they weren't expecting that, as long as it wasn't some high level PVP guild. But they were still min/max'd builds working towards one thing and one thing only. Whether that was DPS, DOTs, hexes, or whatever doesn't matter. It'd always be a build that was as effective as possible, and was usually a variation of one of the past FOTM builds (because, let's face it: if it works, someone's done it before).

[pocki666]

well, if you don't want to be able to switch skills if your build doesn't work out, don't. shelf your character and restart. constrict yourself with rules that allow this to work with the way that skills and runes are gained and you have what you want. if that gives you the illusion of difficulty, why not?

it's a single player game with a multiplayer option after all, so it shouldn't matter to you what the others do... it's the same as the permadeath players in ddo. there's no ingame support for it and only comes down to what the player does when he died too often

[Truga]

Yeah, so because the game is designed around there being no customization, I'll just shelf all my characters because sooner or later I'll be forced to swap skills to continue or quit the game. Because that's how games are made "hard" now. Not by encouraging people to make a good build, plan it out from the start, figure how everything works etc, and find alternate uses for their skills. Not by encouraging smart builds, where one has to make a build that will be able to even complete the whole game, if playing higher difficulties. Instead, just give them everything, and then introduce silly limitations that make no sense, and call that customization.

I think I'll pass. The more I read about it, the more it looks like a Guild Wars, but with less unique skills and classes.

[pocki666]

that's exactly you wanted, no? yeah maybe the way skills are gained gets in the way, but it was no different in d2... you still needed to get to the skill in the tree to put points in it...

i personally rather log in an play than fantasizing, theorizing and calculating for hours on end before i even start playing, but that's just me. you know, if i want a game that requires plenty of planning before you level, i play ddo. not every game has to be the same as ddo or even the same as it's predecessor. the skilltree system is outdated and they acknowledged that.

also i don't think that the ease of skill and rune swapping prevents you from thinking of the build you want to play before it comes out. you see, there are two ways of finding out what you think is best. one is that you calculate what will be best with the limited set of information available, or you just trial-and-error your way through.

you can level to 20 in ddo and decide that the build sucks and you need to swap feats and some class choices, and you took a useless skill like repair, and you lr into a better build. if you've never ever lr'ed or gr'ed you either run builds others made or you tr when a build sucks. now i think lr and gr are the very same thing as switching skills and runes in d3 only the d3 system doesn't cost you money.

[Truga]

I never LR'd or GR'd. I made all my builds myself, including my first rogue which is now sitting at level 9 because I dumped con and relied on AC and evasion, like I often did in PnP, not knowing it doesn't work like that in DDO.

For my upcoming monk TR I did check the forums, because I literally know nothing about monks, and found out that all the good builds I'd like are outdated now, and not very effective anymore. So I'm making that myself too. I TR'd one drow rogue into a warforged rogue, and I swapped out improved mental toughness with the free feat exchange I got on my wiz. I think that about covers everything I've done to my characters, post the leveling process.

They were all built to survive both early, late and epic levels. I know, it's not hard to do, and since some of them will never even reach 20 it's probably not the smartest thing to do, but I really like theorycrafting about my characters while I'm not playing the game (i.e. when not at home). Like, right now while at work!

Also, I don't mind skill switching too much, really. In fact I used to like it, even. But, there has to be a cost to it. Allowing free swapping back and forth has often lead game designers into thinking that allowing only one possible combination to complete an area was a good thing, and that since one can swap skills, they should do it.

An example of this is my friend's WoW story, where a raid required several members to have both dual spec specs designed for raiding (as opposed to having an off-spec for pvp or solo like most do), otherwise they'd have to change characters or get thrown out of a raid, because an encounter required less tanks and healers, and more dps. And Blizzard, instead of encouraging out-of-the-box thinking (in wow, you can freely re-enter raids, unlike in DDO, so swapping to someone else if you don't want to swap isn't a problem), designed even more encounters like that.

So, you get a bunch of encounters, where every encounter is it's own problem, rather than the whole dungeon/raid/game being a complex interconnected problem, and having to bring a build/group that can tackle the entire complex problem, you bring whatever, and by trial and error clear everything one problem at a time. It's much more forgiving like this. It used to be that if you bring something that can faceroll the boss, if it can't clear the path to it it doesn't even matter. Now you just clear the path to the boss, then swap your skills and faceroll the boss, too. This is much easier to balance though, so I can understand developers going in this direction.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

No. I like it when choices when making a build have consequences, and when encounters are doable in more than one way.

It's the player skill and intellect that matter when your character doesn't have the best possible answer to any situation. The consequences of taking skill x instead of y should be felt during the game. At one time by having less problems with certain encounters by having the right skill, and at another time by _changing tactics_, so that you can work with the skills you choose, because the usual faceroll approach doesn't work out.

Swapping out to the best build for an encounter is what makes a game easy, because no matter how much "player skill" it takes, the game will be completable with any and every character. Act 3 chapter 2? Load this template.

If you built something that facerolls the entire game, but can't faceroll a random boss somewhere midway, you lost at the game. Now this shouldn't happen on lower difficulties, but yes, it should happen on higher ones. And a more tactical approach should get you through such encounters, where you build can't just power through. An approach where you still use your own skills, but use them in more creative ways.

If you can just swap out the skills for that one boss, what's the point, though? Might as well give everyone every skill at any time and be done with it. There will be very little difference from what "customization" exists now. And I personally much prefer just having access to everything over some fake customization.

Ed: And don't get me wrong, I'd always roll weird builds in GW PVP, and people would usually die in masses, because they weren't expecting that, as long as it wasn't some high level PVP guild. But they were still min/max'd builds working towards one thing and one thing only. Whether that was DPS, DOTs, hexes, or whatever doesn't matter. It'd always be a build that was as effective as possible, and was usually a variation of one of the past FOTM builds (because, let's face it: if it works, someone's done it before).

So in other words you do want challange through character creation, not through player skill. In D2 the game was ridiculously easy if you knew how to build, and it will always be that way in a skill tree system. Besides, why can't just someone with your mentality just *not* swap your skills? Choose 6 skills that you like, and 6 runes for those, and then never change?
Havint this system also allows Blizzard to balance the difficulty around people having the possibility to respec without rerolling. I.e. the can design encounters that are actually hard for everyone, not just the gimpy build ones. If you think it's bad that you can complete the game with any character then I really wonder what you're doing on the DDO forums. The very game that defines being able to beat it no matter what you do.

So you basically advocate that people should suffer and have to reroll if they chose a skill that wasn't that great? That the only challange they'll find is when their build fails? Not when their player skill or building strategies fail? Basically: "Read up on every skill, every forum and ever build, or you won't be able to beat the game unless you're lucky with choosing the right skill." Man, that's such a great system!

If they changed the system so that you as you leveled picked one m1 ability and couldn't change, one m2, one 1,2,3 and finally one 4 ability, and that you got to choose one rune for each - would you, or would you not call that customization.

[Truga]

You are twisting my words. I never said anything about player skill. Those difficulties should be next to player skill, not instead of it. Finishing the game on highest difficulty should take both planning and player skill. One does not exclude the other.

And, I don't know about you but I have some friends in DDO that are pretty gimpy and can't really do much on their own. Just because you and me can solo epics doesn't mean everyone can. Heck, half the people I pug with can't even solo normal.

Ed: And yes, people should read up on skills if they want to play on the higher difficulties. Or are you saying that putting skill points in randomly in both normal and nightmare in D2 wasn't a completely viable tactic? It worked for me on more than one occasion, and it was only in hell that these builds stopped working completely.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

You are twisting my words. I never said anything about player skill. Those difficulties should be next to player skill, not instead of it. Finishing the game on highest difficulty should take both planning and player skill. One does not exclude the other.

And, I don't know about you but I have some friends in DDO that are pretty gimpy and can't really do much on their own. Just because you and me can solo epics doesn't mean everyone can. Heck, half the people I pug with can't even solo normal.

Ed: And yes, people should read up on skills if they want to play on the higher difficulties. Or are you saying that putting skill points in randomly in both normal and nightmare in D2 wasn't a completely viable tactic? It worked for me on more than one occasion, and it was only in hell that these builds stopped working completely.

Disallowing easy respec stops the developers from creating overly difficult fights. They won't be designed to be difficult for the super-builds, and thus they'll be cake walk for the super-builds and thus it won't require any skill. See D2 or any other game of the sort.

Soloing in DDO is a difficulty you make yourself, just like not swapping skills in D3 would. The game is designed for a party of 6 (or 12) and I could roll up any character with any stats and still walk through the game with ease.

Except it's impossible to know if a skill will be good or not before you actually take it. The only game I've seen that has such thorough tooltips that allows you to determine exactly how good a skill will be is Bloodline Champions. The rest of the games exclude cast times, cooldowns, delays between attacks, aoe size, and the like. Without knowing that you might end up thinking "oh wow, hydra looks cool". And building for that and ending up pretty much useless compared to a meteor build. Or going thunderstrike thinking "man, gonna rain done so lighting and use only this skill", since it says nothing about the proc rate. But then you take it and realize, oh wow, this sucks. Better reroll and spend another week to get back to this point.

Also, you never answered my question


If they changed the system so that you as you leveled picked one m1 ability and couldn't change, one m2, one 1,2,3 and finally one 4 ability, and that you got to choose one rune for each - would you, or would you not call that customization.

[Truga]

I would call it customization, because it'd make me think about what to take, rather than "I'll just figure things out once I can't steamroll through content anymore".

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I would call it customization, because it'd make me think about what to take, rather than "I'll just figure things out once I can't steamroll through content anymore".

So in other words you believe that time is a relevant factor in customization? That it's not customization if you don't lose a significant amount of *time* to play with the other choice.

[Truga]

So in other words you believe that time is a relevant factor in customization? That it's not customization if you don't lose a significant amount of *time* to play with the other choice.

No, not time. But if I make a character that works like X, I should bear the consequences of that decision. I really can't say it simpler than that.

Like I said above: I'm not against resetting things completely, but it should at least come at some cost. Just like changing a feat in DDO costs some siberys fragments, swapping skills should cost something. Or a cooldown, like with enhancements resets.

Swapping skill sets every couple of seconds doesn't make any sense from an RPGers point of view. Are you a fire wizard or are you a lightning wizard or are you a hybrid? You can't be all three at the same time, with next to no downtime in-between.

And disallowing easy respec doesn't stop anything. It'd just make the game that bit more unforgiving. I really don't see why allowing easy respec has any correlation with game difficulty. If you want to make a game that's difficult for the best builds, make it so, respec or no respec doesn't change this.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

No, not time. But if I make a character that works like X, I should bear the consequences of that decision. I really can't say it simpler than that.

Like I said above: I'm not against resetting things completely, but it should at least come at some cost. Just like changing a feat in DDO costs some siberys fragments, swapping skills should cost something. Or a cooldown, like with enhancements resets.

Swapping skill sets every couple of seconds doesn't make any sense from an RPGers point of view. Are you a fire wizard or are you a lightning wizard or are you a hybrid? You can't be all three at the same time, with next to no downtime in-between.

And disallowing easy respec doesn't stop anything. It'd just make the game that bit more unforgiving. I really don't see why allowing easy respec has any correlation with game difficulty. If you want to make a game that's difficult for the best builds, make it so, respec or no respec doesn't change this.

You must be intelligent enough to realize that the "consequences" are having to roll a new character (or swap a feat or whatever) to try the other thing. And the only thing that stops that is time. The consequences are that you lose time. Period. See it how you will, but that's just plain facts.

And as the definition for customization goes it says nothing about time, nor have I heard of anyone ever believing so until now. So your complains about the game is not that there "is no customization", it is that "there isn't a big enough penalty in doing a mistake in the build decision".
Time being the penalty, as described above.

[Truga]

You must be intelligent enough to realize that the "consequences" are having to roll a new character (or swap a feat or whatever) to try the other thing. And the only thing that stops that is time. The consequences are that you lose time. Period. See it how you will, but that's just plain facts.

Or, the game could be designed so that there aren't any better or worse builds. So that they are balanced, and they all have some advantages and disadvantages, and you choose your builds depending on your playstyle, rather than their strength. And so that any build can get through the game, with enough creative thinking, at roughly the same speed.

And, the game could be designed so that not having the optimal skills doesn't mean you automatically get locked out of anything, but instead just need to work your way around something in a different way, other than brute force. Now I know this isn't D3 MO, they want 100% hack and slash, so I'll give them that. I also get that it's impossible to perfectly balance so many permutations of skills. But they could at least do it to within a couple % of each-other (MMOs seem to have little trouble with this, though at some expense on class diversity), so that even with the "best possible build" you don't get an overwhelming advantage against someone with the "worst possible build".

And, having different skill builds could even get you different optional content! Grouping incentives FTW! DDO lacks this very much. Apart from some rare quests, and traps, it's pretty bland in this part.

Yes, I know D&D is as far from this as possible, where casters own everything else, but I have a thing for D&D, from before I started min/maxing, so I'm here to stay. D&D and DDO are semi-casual pastimes, and I love them for what they are. :P

[Aaxeyu]

Except it's impossible to know if a skill will be good or not before you actually take it. The only game I've seen that has such thorough tooltips that allows you to determine exactly how good a skill will be is Bloodline Champions. The rest of the games exclude cast times, cooldowns, delays between attacks, aoe size, and the like. Without knowing that you might end up thinking "oh wow, hydra looks cool". And building for that and ending up pretty much useless compared to a meteor build. Or going thunderstrike thinking "man, gonna rain done so lighting and use only this skill", since it says nothing about the proc rate. But then you take it and realize, oh wow, this sucks. Better reroll and spend another week to get back to this point.


And even if you know everything about the skill, you can't really make a fully informed decision unless you also know the game.

[licho]

In next issue:
DDO vs BF3 who will win this time?
And week after:
DDO vs League of Legends!

This one, and much more soon on DDO forum!
You cant miss that. :-)

The games are different, D3 is more Arcade, but thats cool. Sometimes when you dont have 6 sets of skillbar which all do one of "boost dmg, prevent dmg, heal' shortering it to 5 clicks can leave more space for actual play.

Also "There is no thought really in it other than kill and get items." hmm clearly DDO is better, we have TR!

[umfri_dolniq]

In next issue:
DDO vs BF3 who will win this time?
And week after:
DDO vs League of Legends!

This one, and much more soon on DDO forum!
You cant miss that. :-)

The games are different, D3 is more Arcade, but thats cool. Sometimes when you dont have 6 sets of skillbar which all do one of "boost dmg, prevent dmg, heal' shortering it to 5 clicks can leave more space for actual play.

Also "There is no thought really in it other than kill and get items." hmm clearly DDO is better, we have TR!

Exactly. I don't remember last time I enjoyed just the gameplay, not worrying swapping equipment 5 times in one dungeon. Getting lost in 10 toolbars I don't classify as FUN

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Diablo III play amounts to nothing more then a "rental" for me. I had to try it because I played Diablo I & II for so many years.

It tries too hard to reach for nostalgia, and just cant hide behind the vail of being a money grab (Auction House being the biggest fail.)

It lacks "Diablo" graphical textures. The game reminds me too much of WoW. There's no dark, gloomy Diablo feel, just that colorful bright WoW look.

Some of the character models leave something to be desired. Monk and wizard models look like ****.

The popup messages. The achievements, waypoints, exp bonus messages, etc are disruptful to the game. They detract from the immersion of the game and story.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

First off many long time Diablo players will miss the customization we had in Diablo II. I think the runes and passives do have some synergy options to them, but in Diablo II there were a TON of customization options for your characters so it just felt lackluster to me.

Maybe the worst thing though (besides that auction house real money BS), is the fact groups are only 4 players in size. I can imagine people feeling left out, as they come from games where 6, 12 and more are the norm. What it means is more pugging for guildies.

Another problem will be the constant spike of the zit-layered babyface playerbase coming over from World of Warcraft. Those kids used to 10/25 man raiding guilds are going to love that. Basically they will be pi$$ing all over everyone trying to get into quests.

Diablo III will probably be a money-maker, but its a big letdown for me. Will not be buying it, and DDO kicks its arse.

[umfri_dolniq]

First off many long time Diablo players will miss the customization we had in Diablo II. I think the runes and passives do have some synergy options to them, but in Diablo II there were a TON of customization options for your characters so it just felt lackluster to me.

Maybe the worst thing though (besides that auction house real money BS), is the fact groups are only 4 players in size. I can imagine people feeling left out, as they come from games where 6, 12 and more are the norm. What it means is more pugging for guildies.

Another problem will be the constant spike of the zit-layered babyface playerbase coming over from World of Warcraft. Those kids used to 10/25 man raiding guilds are going to love that. Basically they will be pi$$ing all over everyone trying to get into quests.

Diablo III will probably be a money-maker, but its a big letdown for me. Will not be buying it, and DDO kicks its arse.

I think the party system is different. 4 player party means you can enjoy the game with friends only, and will not HAVE to quest/raid with babyfaces or morons.
DDO died for me a while ago with the stupid grindfest crafting and almost absolute no item variation at end levels.
I wanted to love DDO more than D3, but especially after the last updates it went down for me.