Tangleroot Redundancy

[arconalos]

After running Tangleroot from Normal to Elite I have to say that I'm gonna wait to run that one again on any of my other toons for sometime. All the quests are the same basic area and it sucks! ALOT!

Are there any others like this?

[Esserbe]

It's a thematic choice, since your group of adventurers keep draining the hobgoblin forces and pushing them further into the fortress. I think it's a fun quest line.

[DarkAlchemist]

It's a thematic choice, since your group of adventurers keep draining the hobgoblin forces and pushing them further into the fortress. I think it's a fun quest line.
So do I and I run it on every character I make or TR.

[cdr]

After running Tangleroot from Normal to Elite I have to say that I'm gonna wait to run that one again on any of my other toons for sometime. All the quests are the same basic area and it sucks! ALOT!

Are there any others like this?

Several of the original / ancient quest chains are like that. Three-Barrel Cove is probably the worst offender; it makes you run through most of the quests twice with almost no changes.

Threnal is pretty guilty too, but less mind-numbing than 3BC.

[Quetzacoala]

Here is how Tangleroot came to be...

Boss: "Okay folks, here is the plan... we realized that these players will buy just about anything, so we are just going to make a chain that involves running two dungeons over and over again."

Employee: "Boss, why would players purchase this pack if it is going to be so low quality?"

Boss: "Let's throw some nice named items into the end reward list, that will draw them in!"

Employee: "I guess... how will our loyal customers ever forgive us though?"

Boss: "If they are willing to run up and down dozens of flights of stairs for an Archbishop only to discover that he is evil, and receive a lousy end reward as well, then they would be willing to do this for a great end reward."

[Hambo]

Here is how Tangleroot came to be...

Boss: "Okay folks, here is the plan... we realized that these players will buy just about anything, so we are just going to make a chain that involves running two dungeons over and over again."

Employee: "Boss, why would players purchase this pack if it is going to be so low quality?"

Boss: "Let's throw some nice named items into the end reward list, that will draw them in!"

Employee: "I guess... how will our loyal customers ever forgive us though?"

Boss: "If they are willing to run up and down dozens of flights of stairs for an Archbishop only to discover that he is evil, and receive a lousy end reward as well, then they would be willing to do this for a great end reward."

Heh.

All the quests mentioned in this thread were ancient before newbies could "buy" packs, and were once the fast track to hitting the level cap... at 10! :D

[AZgreentea]

To me it dosent seem like the Tangleroot quests were really meant to be run one after another. Granted, that is the easiest way, especially with a PUG.

However, looking at the objective and quest levels, I dont think they were meant to be a continuous series. The first two could be one after another, but then you get to the war plans and then he breeds a spider army a short time later? Where was that spider a short time ago when you were in there?

[arconalos]

Gotta agree that Catacombs is alot alike as well, not nearly as bad as Tangleroot but bad.

I had to run this for the Rune Arm and also the House P favor. Knowing that 3BC is as bad I'm not sure it will be worth it.

le sigh

[Rumbaar]

It's a thematic choice, since your group of adventurers keep draining the hobgoblin forces and pushing them further into the fortress. I think it's a fun quest line.How come I have to fight through the same forces each time then?

[Lithic]

How come I have to fight through the same forces each time then?


Because the hobgoblins aren't stupid and they refortify their front defenses after you leave between quests.

[Beethoven]

How come I have to fight through the same forces each time then?

You don't. What needs to be kept in mind is that Turbine opted against making wilderness areas vast and traveling actually feel like travel (ie: it taking 30+minutes to run from quest giver to quest entrance).

So, the reason these quests don't feel like they make a lot of sense is mostly because Ungurz stands ten feet from the Splinterskull fortress, which makes it odd that the hobgoblins manage to regroup that quickly. Now, you'd assume you are gone for about an hour (in between exiting the quest, talking to Ungurz and returning to Splinterskull fortress) the whole story makes a bit more sense.

You keep raiding their fortress, pushing inside ever deeper. Meanwhile the hobgoblins send more and more (and more dangerous) reinforcements from inside the fortress and if you look at the mobs you end up fighting they are different with every quest and become tougher as the level of the quests increase.

[Rumbaar]

..and those two same spiders I fight each time I run in, they are from extra hobgoblin forces :)

and I have to find that key again ... didn't I just have it?!

[Lithic]

..and those two same spiders I fight each time I run in, they are from extra hobgoblin forces :)

and I have to find that key again ... didn't I just have it?!

You only find the key in pt 5, and then the door lock is broken in pt 6-7 so you don't need the key after.

You may be thinking of the first portcullis which gets reclosed by the hobgoblins when they repopulate the two lever rooms, which makes sense.

There's also a spider nest to the right to repopulate the first spiders

[EllisDee37]

Knowing that 3BC is as bad I'm not sure it will be worth it.Three-barrel cove isn't even remotely the same. It has seven unique quests, all with different flavors. Two of those seven quests obnoxiously require you to run back out and run the same dungeon a second time with a different name. All told, this makes nine quests in your quest log. The other five quest are single-part quests with zero repetition. This poor pack has enough problems without people spreading misinformation.

Sorrowdusk is a half-tangleroot. There are 10 quests in 5 dungeons, so you repeat each dungeon twice. Unlike Tangleroot, there is a lot of running involved to turn in and get back to each repeated dungeon. The two repeats in 3BC also have this problem.

[Vengeance777]

I actually like Tangleroot. A couple of the quests are the best xp per minute at the level. A lot of TRs run through a few of the quests several times.

Most players run this way over level and the whole chain straight through. This chain was not made to be run this way originally. The CR of the quests goes up with each quest, your meant to run the quests of the appropriate level then go elsewhere for a bit till you reach the level of the next quest in chain.

So it makes sense for the Hobgoblins to be higher CR and to have restocked their defenses each time you go back in. And going deeper and deeper into the fortress each time is kind of fun.

This is a classic part of a lot of older pen and paper modules and super dungeons. Raid the first floor of a dungeon go back to town rest up repair, level up, sell etc... A week passes you head back first floor has restocked with some enemies, You tear through them since you are higher level then descend deeper into the dungeon.


There's a few other quests that do this and do it better. Invader's for example does this quite well. Taking the waterworks wilderness you play through at level 4 and having it be overrun as part of the Xoriat invasion at level 11.

[Cardtrick]

I love Tangleroot, but I can't explain why. It's super-repetitive, but something about the pacing keeps it from being boring to me. I run it on every character. I mostly just zerg it straight through these days (I do detour slightly to grab collectables -- I usually make about 200,000 plat from selling collectables from a full Tangleroot run (repeating the invis-run portions a few times).

But it's also great to take slower and explore. I like the little touches like the captive in the pit who gets stung by a scorpion and is then a progressively more decayed undead the next couple of times you see him. Discovering and getting slaughtered by the earth elementals in the underwater cave is one of my fondest newbie-DDO memories. Tangleroot will always have a nostalgic place in my heart.

[arconalos]

Well knowing that 3BC is only running wilderness helps ease my feelings.

The story with Tangleroot is good its just the repetitiveness, would be great if they threw in a couple more named mobs, maybe rare spawns and random traps, give it a better feel of being 'fortified'.

Unfortunately Sorrowdusk was going to be my next chain when I have time.

I guess wash, rinse, repeat is the name of the game at times.

[Zorth]

Make it Epic. The Bracers of Dexterity for example are useless in the game Unless they were made Epic.

Make them Dex plus 8 for Epic and make the Goggles of Deathward last 20 minutes Epic.,etc.

So many cool quest items in the pack.

It would be the ultimate Epic quest btw. You would have to be at your best for it.

Getting past the explorer on Epic would be easy since you can Teleport to the quest. It pretty much is set.

[qoolboxer]

Here is how Tangleroot came to be...

Boss: "Okay folks, here is the plan... we realized that these players will buy just about anything, so we are just going to make a chain that involves running two dungeons over and over again."

Employee: "Boss, why would players purchase this pack if it is going to be so low quality?"

Boss: "Let's throw some nice named items into the end reward list, that will draw them in!"

Employee: "I guess... how will our loyal customers ever forgive us though?"

Boss: "If they are willing to run up and down dozens of flights of stairs for an Archbishop only to discover that he is evil, and receive a lousy end reward as well, then they would be willing to do this for a great end reward."

Maybe that was what happened with Update 12. The Challenge Pack at 1495TP is the most expensive pack with just 4 dungeons, using nice loot as redeeming factor. Nothing else beats this pack for super-repetitive grinds.

But the whole DDO game is thriving on repetition, hamsters on wheels, so Tangleroot isn't as bad as the other repetitive stuff you are already doing in game. I think Sorrowdusk with all the running around in the wilderness is less enjoyable.

[DarkAlchemist]

Maybe that was what happened with Update 12. The Challenge Pack at 1495TP is the most expensive pack with just 4 dungeons, using nice loot as redeeming factor. Nothing else beats this pack for super-repetitive grinds.

But the whole DDO game is thriving on repetition, hamsters on wheels, so Tangleroot isn't as bad as the other repetitive stuff you are already doing in game. I think Sorrowdusk with all the running around in the wilderness is less enjoyable.
LOL :( I actually love Sorrowdusk and run it for the S/R/E and the quests are nice favor and xp too. Not uber but nice.

[Faent]

I guess wash, rinse, repeat is the name of the game at times.

There's been an awful lot of recycling old content recently. The Chronoscope is one nice example. All they had to do was recycle some old graphical content, paint some of it a bit differently, link it all up and and toss in different mobs. Epic content is, of course, just another way of recycling old content. It's lazy game design, but apparently it's good for business. The first time I popped into Chronoscope and saw the Prison of the Planes entrance area recycled and painted a bit differently, I wanted to vomit. Actually, I still want to vomit. That was beyond lame.

[Impaqt]

Here is how Tangleroot came to be...

Boss: "Okay folks, here is the plan... we realized that these players will buy just about anything, so we are just going to make a chain that involves running two dungeons over and over again."

Employee: "Boss, why would players purchase this pack if it is going to be so low quality?"

Boss: "Let's throw some nice named items into the end reward list, that will draw them in!"

Employee: "I guess... how will our loyal customers ever forgive us though?"

Boss: "If they are willing to run up and down dozens of flights of stairs for an Archbishop only to discover that he is evil, and receive a lousy end reward as well, then they would be willing to do this for a great end reward."

"Packs" didnt exist when tangleroot was released.

[Esserbe]

There's been an awful lot of recycling old content recently. The Chronoscope is one nice example. All they had to do was recycle some old graphical content, paint some of it a bit differently, link it all up and and toss in different mobs. Epic content is, of course, just another way of recycling old content. It's lazy game design, but apparently it's good for business. The first time I popped into Chronoscope and saw the Prison of the Planes entrance area recycled and painted a bit differently, I wanted to vomit. Actually, I still want to vomit. That was beyond lame.

It's about art assets and art budget. The Prison of the Planes is a Giant building, and the Chronoscope is also a Giant building. I don't think that's serious enough to make me feel ill, and I don't feel that was lazy asset re-use instead of logical asset re-use.

[MRMechMan]

It's realistic, if nothing else. Same map, but different objectives generally.

And pretty nice xp.

Plus a very handy DW clickie.

All in all, a decent pack to get.

[Faent]

It's about art assets and art budget.

Yep. They need a better art budget so they don't have to keep recycling old textures and models. Let's hope the Forgotten Realms isn't a repainted Gianthold.

[Flavilandile]

To me it dosent seem like the Tangleroot quests were really meant to be run one after another. Granted, that is the easiest way, especially with a PUG.

This.
Tangleroot was meant to be run in between other quests. The first quest is LVL 3, the last one is LVL 7.

Things to remember : Tangleroot was in the original release of DDO, 6 years ago.

At that Time :
- Free To Play didn't exist, only what is now called VIP.
- Level Cap was 10.

At that time Quests were :
- What is now Khortos Quests, they were in what is now Inspired Quarter.
- Harbour, Marketplace, the Houses, Catacombs, Deleras, Tangleroot, Threnal, Sorrowdusk, 3 Barrel Cove, Vault of Night.

There was no explorer area, quest chains in market and the houses didn't exist ( no sentinel, no phiarlan carnival, no market chain ).

You also had to do Waterworks to reach the Market from the Harbour ( or bribe the guard )...
( and you had to either go through sewers or do all the lower harbour quests to be able to enter the rest of the harbour )

So once out of the harbour you did the quests around the Nail, then you went to Catacombs to do the first parts, then you went to Tangleroot to do the first part, then you went to STK, then you graduated to the depth in house Deneith, went back to Catacomb and Tangleroot, and so on.

[learst]

Several of the original / ancient quest chains are like that. Three-Barrel Cove is probably the worst offender; it makes you run through most of the quests twice with almost no changes.

Threnal is pretty guilty too, but less mind-numbing than 3BC.

I agree with the OP, I find TR quite boring and mind-numbing.

I highly disagree on 3BC though. For one thing it is not a chain. Secondly, there is only 1 dungeon that you go through twice - The fire caves.

I also disagree on those who mentioned Catacombs. Again, it is only 1 dungeon that gets repeated. This pales in comparison to TR and Threnal.

[EllisDee37]

I highly disagree on 3BC though. For one thing it is not a chain. Secondly, there is only 1 dungeon that you go through twice - The fire caves.Garl's Tomb is also a two-parter, but your point stands.

[Jay203]

Gotta agree that Catacombs is alot alike as well, not nearly as bad as Tangleroot but bad.

I had to run this for the Rune Arm and also the House P favor. Knowing that 3BC is as bad I'm not sure it will be worth it.

le sigh

imo Scoundrel's Run and Prove Your Worth are two quests everyone should run at some point in their ddo game "life" :)

[Razcar]

Several of the chain quests from game launch are like that. Grey Moon, Cult of Six, Threnal, Tangleroot. Maybe the designers were short on time before launch and just had to get content out. Having lots of quests put into the same dangeon is of course a huge development time saver.


The first time I popped into Chronoscope and saw the Prison of the Planes entrance area recycled and painted a bit differently, I wanted to vomit. Actually, I still want to vomit. That was beyond lame.You see this all the time in DDO. Crystal Cove is the old training area Smuggler's Rest from before they made Korthos. The Korthos quest (except a few) are old Harbor quest from where the Inspired Quarter is now. Invasion! uses the Waterworks map. The circus tent in Big Top is the old Marketplace tent, etc.

You see it on monsters too - they change the skin of an existing mob and call it a new one. For exampel the Red Fens Vine Stalker who is a dressed up troll. Recycling is cheap.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Things to remember : Tangleroot was in the original release of DDO, 6 years ago.

Yes, it seems so.

Tangleroot Gorge & Sorrowdusk Island are the only other non-Stormreach quest areas mentioned in my 2006 printed handbook.

[macubrae]

Because the hobgoblins aren't stupid and they refortify their front defenses after you leave between quests.

^^THIS^^ is why there are only 6 or 8 creatures in the last fight instead of 50.

[Razcar]

Because the hobgoblins aren't stupid and they refortify their front defenses after you leave between quests.
They are stupid. Because if they just had held all their reinforcements back in the throne room, the combined might of 50 hobgoblins would surely had killed any party. But not through force of arms mind you, but due to massive, lethal, merciless... lag.

[Vallin]

Heh, you newbies complaining about 'packs...' Tangleroot as a 'pack' was not a glimmer in me eye when it was released.

You young whippersnappers better go pick on something else.

Hey, get off of my Tangleroot, um, lawn, or something!!

Vallin.

[Beethoven]

Several of the chain quests from game launch are like that.

Hate to sound like a fanboi here, but there is a good reason for that. Turbine did not want to launch DDO back in February of 2006 already because the game was not finished. Atari pushed for the early release. It's not really surprising Turbine cut corners some where but its not like it was their choice. What they could be blamed for is to not remove old content to completely redo it from scratch, but that's probably because enough people buy and play that content still.

Criticizing re-using stuff for 3BC and Chronoscope is a ;little unfair too. There have been a lot of voices asking for the old Smugglers Rest to be brought back. However, Korthos Island made it redundant as starter area. What's to say we (or at least some of us) asked they listened and found a way to put it back on the map.

Chronoscope was released in combination with the anniversary of the market place tent blowing up, which was a major milestone in DDO and meant to commemorate the event. There really is no other way than re-use how stuff looked back in the day.

Personally I rather have them re-use old maps for that kind of stuff and have their creative team do artwork for new content and I really cannot complain about the look and feel of the new content they brought out. My opinion here may change still depending on how Underdark will look like because for 30-80 USD I do have higher expectations.

[Templarion]

I like Tangleroot but there should be some real environmental changes during the quest line, for example: crashed gate, broken barrels, hobgoblin bodies lying all over the place and spiders feasting on bodies, blood trails of the wounded on the floor, barricaded gates, ambush waiting in hallway etc. (atm, the ambushes don't feel like ambushes, just regular mob spawns)

[Aliss7]

I just bought the low-level packs from the sale recently and have been slowly working my way through them.

o I liked that tavern dude can teleport you to splinterskull. Seriously, why can't zawabi do this for you in the sands?

o I liked the theme of heading back to the "dungeon" and getting deeper each time.

o I liked the part in splinterskull where you can spot the directions to the key... unfortunately it seems that the key spawns in the same spot all the time? It seems to me that the eggs and the key could have been random spawn points in the quest and people with certain skills could have found them quicker. Alas, it doesn't seem to work that way.

[Aelonwy]

o I liked that tavern dude can teleport you to splinterskull. Seriously, why can't zawabi do this for you in the sands?



People have been asking for this feature to be implemented, for years now, in so many other wilderness areas! Example: Some quest givers in 3BC, especially the ones you have to go back to a second time. My personal guess is whomever wrote the code for this wonderful convenience no longer works for Turbine and no one else can figure out how to make it work elsewhere.

[BruceTheHoon]

Gotta agree that Catacombs is alot alike as well, not nearly as bad as Tangleroot but bad.

I had to run this for the Rune Arm and also the House P favor. Knowing that 3BC is as bad I'm not sure it will be worth it.

le sigh

I don't know what cdr is thinking of, but 3BC has some of the most unique quests till that level, if You ask me. Only two of them - two mini quest chains - take place in the same environment and even then monster spectrums change noticeably.

[auntjobiska]

You see this all the time in DDO. Crystal Cove is the old training area Smuggler's Rest from before they made Korthos. The Korthos quest (except a few) are old Harbor quest from where the Inspired Quarter is now. Invasion! uses the Waterworks map. The circus tent in Big Top is the old Marketplace tent, etc.


I do quite like going 'back' to places at higher levels, especially from a different angle and doing different things. Another one is that quest that you need to do before you go to Restless Isles. Isn't that in Osgood's Basement or somewhere similar?

AJ

[Flavilandile]

I don't know what cdr is thinking of, but 3BC has some of the most unique quests till that level, if You ask me. Only two of them - two mini quest chains - take place in the same environment and even then monster spectrums change noticeably.

Important bit of wisdom :

3BC has been revamped/retrofitted/enhanced while Tangleroot and Threnal are basically what they have always been since the begining.

3BC used to be a tiny cove town where everything was near the inn. The furthest you had to run to was for the Fire Caves and for Garl's Tomb and it was a less than a minute run from the inn door.
Furthermore Quests : Prove your Worth and Ghost of a Chance didn't exist.
You only had Fire Caves, Garls Tomb, the mine one and the boat attack one in the Original 3BC.

And people complain more about 3BC than about Threnal ( well except for Coyle, but you should have seen when he wasn't knockable and healable ) or Tangleroot.

[Cyr]

Because the hobgoblins aren't stupid and they refortify their front defenses after you leave between quests.

I actually think this is the definition of stupidity. I mean how many times do you have to be trounced by the same people before you decide to stop sending men against them?

[Ancient]

They are stupid. Because if they just had held all their reinforcements back in the throne room, the combined might of 50 hobgoblins would surely had killed any party. But not through force of arms mind you, but due to massive, lethal, merciless... lag.

We take 8 trips sneaking in and out of the dungeon before we figure out hey... we're strong enough to go kick the leader's butt... and they are the ones are who are stupid?

*Hey, totally crushed everything in the fort... lets go outside and start over so we can do it again!*

I much prefer the framework approach :) It would be awesome if assault on splinterskull was 2 longer quests with pretty much the same storyline (break in, explore prison, first boss room, break into 2nd fortress, meet spy, kill 2nd in command, go get first in command).

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

I must admit that I purely love Tangleroot Gorge. It's one of those quests chains I really like, in contrast to The Catacombs, for example.

What I found most interesting was the fate of the prisoner in the cellar. You know, the one next to the scorpions.

I don't want to spoil anyone about it, ut i thought it was a nice "twist".

[BoBo2020]

I mostly just zerg it straight through these days (I do detour slightly to grab collectables -- I usually make about 200,000 plat from selling collectables from a full Tangleroot run (repeating the invis-run portions a few times).

Great collectible farming in this series. Lightning Split Soarwood, Silver Flame Hymanls and Medium Eberron Dragonshards drop frequently.

[HalfOrcBeautyQueen]

I ran Tangleroot for the first time in a year recently (Recently TR'd).
It wasn't as bad as I remembered -
plus I got: 2 Fragrant Drowshood, 1 Silver Flame Hymnal, & 1 Lightning Splitsoarwood.

So I was happy :D

[Kylstrem]

And while we are complaining, move Hragg (in Co6) up closer to the 1st quest entrance.

As it is now, our party spends more time running back and forth between the quest entrance(s) and Hragg than we spend "in dungeon" for the 6 parts.

[WangoFett]

There are some advantages to the design.
a) It is easy to learn.
2) One gets a slight sense of a changing world environment

Sure it is not without drawbacks. The first few encounters do not offer much in the way of replayability.
Even adding a friendly hobgob camp to the quests that moves through the dungeon at each chapter would improve the experience.

[hecate355]

Important bit of wisdom :

3BC has been revamped/retrofitted/enhanced while Tangleroot and Threnal are basically what they have always been since the begining.

3BC used to be a tiny cove town where everything was near the inn. The furthest you had to run to was for the Fire Caves and for Garl's Tomb and it was a less than a minute run from the inn door.
Furthermore Quests : Prove your Worth and Ghost of a Chance didn't exist.
You only had Fire Caves, Garls Tomb, the mine one and the boat attack one in the Original 3BC.

And people complain more about 3BC than about Threnal ( well except for Coyle, but you should have seen when he wasn't knockable and healable ) or Tangleroot.

And it did look UGLY befor revamp. Neon green lump full of goons and handful of quests scattered around.

[Razcar]

We take 8 trips sneaking in and out of the dungeon before we figure out hey... we're strong enough to go kick the leader's butt... and they are the ones are who are stupid?

Nah I was just making a lag joke :) Having 50 mobs in one room would wipe any party, due to not being able to do anything but die.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

I love tangleroot. It's easily one of my favorite quest chains.

Although.. last time I ran it I did something really, really, really stupid!

I went to kill the two ogres who drop keys in the final quest, but neither ogre spawned in the room. Paged a gm and they showed up rather quickly and were surprised by our problem. They said they had no reports of issues with this quest. So they spawned the ogres for us and we grabbed the keys, then went to the final room and there was no boss there!

Then I realized that I was in fact in the 2nd last quest of the chain and took a left where I should have taken a right. Oops.

[dmslasher]

Here is how Tangleroot came to be...

Boss: "Okay folks, here is the plan... we realized that these players will buy just about anything, so we are just going to make a chain that involves running two dungeons over and over again."

Employee: "Boss, why would players purchase this pack if it is going to be so low quality?"

Boss: "Let's throw some nice named items into the end reward list, that will draw them in!"

Employee: "I guess... how will our loyal customers ever forgive us though?"

Boss: "If they are willing to run up and down dozens of flights of stairs for an Archbishop only to discover that he is evil, and receive a lousy end reward as well, then they would be willing to do this for a great end reward."

totally untrue DDO was pay to play for several years. tangleroot was one of the first quests chains they ever made and back when ddo first came out running tangleroot from start to finish was an extreme challenge there were not as many great items out there as there were in that quest. think about it min lvl 5 +3 stat items that you can use almost to cap (witch was only 10 then). heck back then tempest spine and CO6 was end game quests! now there are tons more quests to run but you will need to remember tangleroot will bring you back to this games roots.

[Quetzacoala]

totally untrue DDO was pay to play for several years. tangleroot was one of the first quests chains they ever made and back when ddo first came out running tangleroot from start to finish was an extreme challenge there were not as many great items out there as there were in that quest. think about it min lvl 5 +3 stat items that you can use almost to cap (witch was only 10 then). heck back then tempest spine and CO6 was end game quests! now there are tons more quests to run but you will need to remember tangleroot will bring you back to this games roots.

I understand that it was inaccurate, it was meant as a funny joke!

[Gkar]

Here is how Tangleroot came to be...

Boss: "Okay folks, here is the plan... we realized that these players will buy just about anything, so we are just going to make a chain that involves running two dungeons over and over again."

Employee: "Boss, why would players purchase this pack if it is going to be so low quality?"

Boss: "Let's throw some nice named items into the end reward list, that will draw them in!"

Employee: "I guess... how will our loyal customers ever forgive us though?"

Boss: "If they are willing to run up and down dozens of flights of stairs for an Archbishop only to discover that he is evil, and receive a lousy end reward as well, then they would be willing to do this for a great end reward."

Hi, welcome to the game! A piece of history you missed is there were no loyal customers when this released, these repeating quests were all original content at launch. Now stop being paranoid about the devs being out to get you.

[Strider1963]

Yes, Tangleroot is a very repititious story line, which can be milked for not too bad xp at that level, along with a slayer area... 3BC's quests are actually more fun... especially Rackmans trial.. 3BC's main fault, is that there's NO NAMED loot. If DDO would rework it and make it a series of quests that lead to a end reward with a choice of unique named loot, I'm sure more ppl would buy the pack. Of course, thats only my opinion..

[Flavilandile]

And it did look UGLY befor revamp. Neon green lump full of goons and handful of quests scattered around.

I won't contest it.
they just overdid it during the remake by making an area that is bigger than the vale with no real incentive to go there, and especially no way to reach the quests fast.

[Gremmlynn]

Yep. They need a better art budget so they don't have to keep recycling old textures and models. Let's hope the Forgotten Realms isn't a repainted Gianthold.Anything spent on art isn't being spent other things. Personally, I'd rather just go to a museum to look at art and have more quests and other content in the game.