VIP/Prem/Expansion packs payment comparison

[HalfORCastrator]

1. Let's remove the notion that Premium is buying and VIP is renting. If Turbine shuts the servers down, you don't get to keep playing. As a Premium, if you stop playing, you're still "paying" because you payed in a lump sum. Whereas VIP has to keep paying, but hasn't payed nearly as much as you already have, and VIP can just get on subscription again when that person gets back.
2. Despite my listing the other options, I'll be using 20% off as the baseline for comparison. 30% off is pretty rare these days and 75% off, I think we can agree, is once every 20 blue moons. 20% off seems to be the Goldilocks point.
3. The bundle of $60 for 8850 TP will be my baseline for TP value. It's put in store often enough. That's 147.5 TP per USD.
4. I assume people will get 3k favor on all servers, but I ignore TP rewards from that favor earning. (For Drow, FVS, etc)
5. I will use 4 character slots as the average for Premiums and VIPs. I know a lot of you have many more, but 4 seems a good average.
6. My timeline will reach until the break-even point of costs between Mr. VIP, Mr. Premium, and Mr. Expansion, for all "necessities". I'll assume they all started playing March 1st 2012.
7. For the VIP monthly rate I'll be using the $100 for 12 months deal. Comes to 8.34 USD per month, rounded up.
8. I listed Artificer for completeness's sake, but just take off 696 TP, 796 TP, or 995 TP from totals where applicable, since VIPs and Premiums both need to buy it.

Catacombs: 250 / 63
Seal of Shan-to-Kor: 250 / 63
Tangleroot Gorge: 550 / 138
Sharn Syndicate: 350 / 88
Three-Barrel Cove: 650 / 163
Delera's Tomb: 850 / 213
Sorrowdusk Isle: 450 / 113
Lowbie packs=3350 / -75%=838

Phiarlan Carnival: 450***
Necropolis Bundle: 1495
Sentinels of Stormreach: 450***
Devil Assault: 350***
Ruins of Threnal: 550
Vault of Night: 750***
Red Fens: 450***
Restless Isles: 550
Demon Sands: 850
Attack on Stormreach: 550***
Ruins of Gianthold: 950
Harbinger of Madness: 450
Vale of Twilight: 850
Reaver's Reach: 450
Reign of Madness: 450
Path of Inspiration: 450***
Dreaming Dark: 450***
Devils of Shavarath: 650
Secrets of the Artificers: 650
Rest of packs=13545 / -30%=9482

=16895 total for packs


Vaults of the Artificers: 1495

Shared Bank: 1495

Races and Classes:
Warforged: 795
Half-bloods Bundle: 1995
Monk: 995
Artificer: 995
=7770 odds/ends, -30%=5439

All old stuff=24665

(-30% old stuff=17266)
(-20% old stuff=19732)
(-75% lowbie packs, -30% rest=14921)
(-75% lowbie packs, -20% rest=17890)


MOTU packs: 2495
Epic Destinies: 995
Druid: 1495
Additional Challenge Pack: 695
New stuff: 5680 / -30%=3976


ALL TOGETHER: 30345
(-30%=21242)
(-20%=24276)
(-75% lowbie packs, -30% rest=19735)
(-75% lowbie packs, -20% rest=22434)

Using the 20% off result, we would need about $165 USD for all packs, specials, what have you.


$80 MOTU prepay+$60 11k TP deal(for total 13k tp):

Don't need:
Classics bundles: 3900
New stuff: 5680

Need:
20765 for old stuff (without Classics)
(-30% off=14536)
(-20% off=16612)
(-75% lowbie packs, -30% rest=13029)
(-75% lowbie packs, -20% rest=13932)

Using the 20% off result, we would need about 3.6k TP to get the rest with the other 13k. That would take about $25, adding to the $140, making the total $165 for the $80 Prepay package, the special TP bundle, and for a little more beyond that.



Now, let's take a look at VIPs:
The prepay package marketed to them is the $30 base package, and the fact that I'm only examining costs of necessities, I'll be using this prepay package for the VIP cost.

What we get with the $30 Prepay Package:
MOTU packs: 2495
Epic Destinies: 995
Druid: 1495 (Free to VIPs, so X this out)
Additional Challenge Pack: 695 (Free to VIPs, so X this out)

This adds up to 3490 TP worth of stuff, or about $24.


Seeing as how the cost point seems to be $165 for Premiums, we'll use that for VIPs and the timeline. (You sly, sly devils, Turbine. ;)) Using the aforementioned VIP monthly rate, the $165 stretches to over a year and 7 months(19.8 months) for a Premium. But wait, the $30 of the Prepay package, let's take 3 months off(16.2 months) to make the math simpler. That comes to a year and 4 months.

So, Mr. Premium has everything Mr. VIP has. What does Mr. VIP get that Mr. Premium doesn't get? 16 months of 500 points and Elite unlock are what most would consider noteworthy. (Again, I'm using 4 used character slots as the rule) The extra TP comes out to 8000 TP.

But, I'm only tracking the costs up to the expansion. How about I do some math regarding the future? How much time do we have left? 4 months of that 16 months will be gone by the time of the expansion. I've heard that U14 is coming in August, 2 months after the expansion is released(or at the same time the expansion is DDOStore-buyable).

I'm going to assume the coming adventure packs will be 600 TP, a fair estimate in my opinion. After those 2 months, I'll assume an update with a buyable adventure pack will come out every 3 months, and calculate for every third month after that. So, March 2012 being Month 1, June 2012(expansion) being Month 4, August 2012(U14) Month 6. After that, there are 10 months left, so 3 more adventure pack updates(excluding Turbine shenanigans). That totals 4 adventure packs at 600 each, coming out to 2400 TP. Even more, let's assume that 2 races and/or classes accompany those four updates and we'll value them at 795 TP each, totalling 1590. Adding the four updates and the races/classes the TP ends at 3990, -20%, becomes $22.





So after all is said and done, what's the difference?
- Premiums spend $22 more by the end of the 16 month period.
- VIPs are not in the hole, and have 8000 TP to play around with.

prepost edit: Due to my notes down there, let's see how it ends up after 24 months. That's 8 more months, or 2 more buyable adventure packs at 600, no other classes/races. 1200-20%, 960 total for Mr. Premium and Expansion.


Extra notes:
- To keep the monthly rate the same throughout the timeline, Mr. VIP would need to buy 24 months of VIP, bringing his total to $230. Ending with a positive TP of 12000.
- Mr. Premium would need to buy three $60 bundles to maintain the tp:$ ratio, bringing his total to $180. Ending with a positive TP of 2112.
- Mr. Expansion would also need to buy a $60 bundle to maintain the tp:$ ratio, bringing his total to $200. Ending with a positive TP of 5076.
- VIP has everything Mr. Premium and Expansion have, but ends ahead of the game with 12k TP.

Bias:
VIP+ The premium dudes have to wait, and wait, and level with overleveled packs. Much less quality for your playing time.
VIP+ Elite unlock saves SO MUCH TIME and hassle. Even less quality playing time(if you're the type that goes elite or wants quick favor)
VIP+ Can spend all that TP on various hearts of wood once you get to that point, or Lesser/Greater xp tomes.
VIP+ 600 TP seems to be on the lowend for Pack pricing these days, same with races/classes at 795 TP. (1495 for Druid anyone? Obv cash grab is obv)
VIP+ This all assumes 20% discount on everything. The expansion and hypothetical future packs are all new content, it'll be a LONG while before there's any discount.
VIP+ I didn't assume that Mr. VIP can just buy the expansion with his monthly TP, and future expansions if they come.
VIP+ I didn't take into account the extra character slots, bank and inventory slots(I think, I'm premium unfortunately).
VIP+ Sometimes VIPs get 1k TP per month for 3 months, an extra 1500. Not bad.
VIP/Exp+ This is assuming you're only starting now. For premiums who have already bought a lot or most or all of the packs, this is not nearly as good for them. VIPs can just pickup right now under this hypothetical and it won't be a bother, nor for vet VIPs.
Prems+ 20% off total is the worst discount for the Premiums, so they can get better.
Prems+ 8.33 is the lowest VIP deal, so it can be worse, but this deal is always around, so I feel justified.
Prems+ This is the 2 yr mark for VIPs, 3rd year is another $100, where Premiums will only need another $60 bundle, if that. Totals: VIP $330 with 18k tp, Prem $240 with 10962 tp, Exp $260 with 13926 tp, all not including more packs/classes/races/costs/xpacks of 3rd yr.
Prems/Exp+ Artificer costs for VIP. Less than $6.
Exp+ The XP Tomes! But VIP can afford it with monthly TP...


P.S. Let me know what you think or any discrepancy in my math(did all this ~3am a few days ago).

[jwdaniels]

Mr. Premium who already has everything and periodically gets an infusion of TP from leveling his TR so he can continue to buy everything he wants: further spending $0.

Mr. VIP who continues paying for his subscription - no matter how you slice it, >$0.

Perceived value is all in how you look at it.

[HalfORCastrator]

Mr. Premium who already has everything and periodically gets an infusion of TP from leveling his TR so he can continue to buy everything he wants: further spending $0.

Mr. VIP who continues paying for his subscription - no matter how you slice it, >$0.

Perceived value is all in how you look at it.
That's what I'm trying to get at. When does that "continued payment" surpass overall premium payment for value. I didn't calculate the favor TP to make the math simpler and both groups get the TP, but yes, Premiums do gain more from being able to reduce their cost from the favor TP.

Let's say Mr. Premium/Expansion/VIP has played for four months and can now do TRs in a week(which is far above average in skill and/or time and/or motivation). In those four months he's gotten to 3k favor(as I assume for all in my OP), attaining 1200 favor(first time bonus TP). Now let's take my 1 yr, 6 month and 2 yr timelines, calculating 1 tr per week for 12 months after those first four months. I'll assume 2k favor per tr. Subtracting the TP for packs at their respective timeline points, this comes out to 22008 TP profit for 16 months, 37048 TP profit in 24 months, and 34160/43200 for VIPs.

But like I said, that's way above average. For 2 week TRs it comes down to (13200-3192)10008 for 16 months, and (21200-4152)17048 for 24 months. For 4 week TRs that becomes (7200-3192)4008 at 16 months, and (11200-4152)7048 at 24 months. Even at 2 years, 20 TRs is stretching. You'll still want to grind for equipment, experience the new packs, new classes/races, maybe with multiple characters, play with non-TRing friends, it won't all be TR leveling 24/7.

Ultimately, each person will need to decide what each factor is valued at for themselves. (Hoping for discounts at the right time, waiting for an opener, having the right packs to level quickly during first lives and TRs, how much time you'll be spending with the game, how much time you have to play weekly, your income, etc) I'm just curious about the values of Premium and VIP payment for the average player.

[Ryiah]

Let's say Mr. Premium/Expansion/VIP has played for four months and can now do TRs in a week(which is far above average in skill and/or time and/or motivation).

The issue with doing a TR in a week is that you need a True Heart of Wood. This requires either spending the time to farm 20 Epic tokens or burning those earned TP on one in the store.

I'm doing completionist with a static group that is running practically every quest in the game on elite. According to DDOWiki the current maximum favor achievable is just over 4K. That's 40 ticks of 25 favor each or 1,000 TP. That should easily cover most of the individual updates with a little bit left over for any races or classes that come out. I would estimate we're managing a TR life every three months or so which is roughly how often the updates are emerging.

I think I've spent maybe $200 for the content in this game but that's just a rough estimate because I seldom bothered waiting for packs to go on-sale and only occasionally bought points on sale. Someone who does both should easily be able to buy the game's content for that price and then if they manage a TR every three months, running all the content they own, they should be able to earn enough to keep buying most new content simply from that.

[Matuse]

1. Let's remove the notion that Premium is buying and VIP is renting.

We would only do that because it's the lynchpin of your entire concept. If we don't remove that notion, your entire argument falls to pieces.


If Turbine shuts the servers down, you don't get to keep playing.

Funny how you don't factor in this aspect when talking about the "free" store points that VIPs get. How about if the servers shut down and the VIP-4-Lyfe player has 12,000 store points laying around? How's his deal then?


As a Premium, if you stop playing, you're still "paying" because you payed in a lump sum.

You have a very odd definition of paying.


Whereas VIP has to keep paying, but hasn't payed nearly as much as you already have, and VIP can just get on subscription again when that person gets back.

Spurious logic, as you do not know how much the premium person has paid.

[a lot of assumptive math removed]

The problem with your comparison is the base assumption that a premium will buy their way to total VIP parity. My experience is that this does not happen. Some people hate certain packs, and do not buy them. Some people have no interest in Monk, Warforged, or half-breeds. By not buying these things that are not wanted, you're looking at saving thousands of TP from premium price.

Turbine has been going out of their way for a very long time to discourage people from being VIPs. Honestly, I just cannot comprehend how anyone can fail to see this.

[wax_on_wax_off]

2 factors that make premium superior, imo.

Firstly, premium is flexible in pay schedule. You can pay a little here, you can stop paying there. I spend $6.50 in the first 10 months of playing and then spent $70 over the Christmas period due to all the 50% sales. That flexibility I appreciate.

Secondly, premium is flexible in access. Turns out that I don't need to have everything on every server or 10 character slots or many of the other "perks" that VIP offers. Instead, I purchase the things that I do need; adventure packs, races, classes, shared bank, 1 extra character slot and I'm done. I've now got access to everything that I could want (all favour unlockable options on my server unlocked, all races, all classes, all adventure packs bar 3 - just waiting on a decent sale - and 6k TP in the bank to pay for the expansion in August).

So when I compare the $76.50 that I've spent as premium with the $300 that I could have spent as VIP, I'm pretty sure I know which approach I prefer.

I'll add that most of the disadvantages of premium/freemium approach - waiting for sales, elite unlocks - are diminishing over time and weren't a big deal when I was experiencing them as I was too inexperienced with the game to pay attention anyway.

[JOTMON]

VIP is a renter with access to all the facilities. has access to everything but has nothing to show for it at the end.

Premium is a Modular home owner, buys addons as desired. They may not have all the upfront perks a VIP has, but once purchased is theirs forever on every server.

If at any point a Premium decides to go VIP, nothing changes they can VIP up before big releases/new packs whatever....then drop back down enjoying all the perks of VIP for that duration( like being on holidays staying at a resort) then go back and enjoy everything they purchased as a Premium.

If a VIP decides to go premium because they are tight for cash, going to be away from the game more than they are on or whatever... they lose access to everything and have to purchase packs even if they were a founding player, those years of support have no end value.. even things that are purchased like extra bank slots (shared bank is free to VIP) are no longer accessible until you buy the base bank space..

Many purchased packs like Drow, 32 Point build Vetern Status, etc.. once purchased unlock these on every server no favour required. on the flip side... Earn it with favour on one server(without buying it) and it is only available on that server, go to another server and you are back to 28point build, no Drow, etc... ( is a moot point for most as it is atypical to server hop, but it does demonstrate superior benefit to purchased vs earned).

VIP's become trapped into staying VIP since VIP's do not have access to purchase packs. They are incapable of pre-purchasing packs as they go on sale in case they were thinking of dropping to premium at some future date.

[JOTMON]

The issue with doing a TR in a week is that you need a True Heart of Wood. This requires either spending the time to farm 20 Epic tokens or burning those earned TP on one in the store.


Farm the Cannith Challenges on Epic level 21 and you will have enough tokens for a TR in 2 hours. Turn in 300 Epic ingredients for a Epic Token ( I was averaging 300 in 5 minutes or less). Great thing with the Cannith challenges no Epic timers, lots of them are 5 minutes or less to run, quick rinse repeat, you know you have a bad instance in the first minute.. just shrine exit and start next instance( dont even have to break party to reset instances). Why would you buy a True Heart of Wood or run a 45 minute EDA for 2 tokens when you can farm the challenges.

[MartinusWyllt]

The problem with your comparison is the base assumption that a premium will buy their way to total VIP parity. My experience is that this does not happen. Some people hate certain packs, and do not buy them.

Purchasing 6 character slots was omitted, so, no, not parity. Elite unlocks on a per-quest basis was also omitted.

The buy/rent argument isn't even specifically germane to the analysis. If the assumption is, in their model, that both players are playing for a 16/24 month period then it doesn't actually matter at all aside from perceived value...to which you can't assign either a dollar or turbine point amount to.

Over a longer period of time or for a "hard-core" player I expect premium does come out far ahead. If you have those 10 slots and they're all at least TR2 then you are equivalent to a subscriber assuming earned TP is used to purchase future content and expansions will take the same amount of cash for any player.