The Myth of Pay To Win

[CountHenri]

"Pay to Win" ~ its a term that gets thrown around a fair bit on the forums I've noticed...

Its an interesting concept ~ if item X is available on the DDO Store for Y dollars Player Z WINS!

How do they win though?

Do they get a Car? a House? a Supermodel? a Unicorn err ok with the pets not best example but you see what I mean...

What does "winning" in DDO actually mean?

There is no ~ Devs joke on the Completionist Feat aside ~ definitive "You WIN DDO" moment...

Before anybody says "well if they could buy everything" ~ they already can...

You've seen it ~ LFMs with "Quest X Paying Y for Z Dont join if you need Z" or at the start of a run someone says "I'll buy Z" or something pops in a chest and somebody asks "Is that for roll?" there is a delay and it gets passed to another player who obviously bought it (OK if its between guildies that is different ~ thats a given running in a group with a high proportion of same guilded players ~ if its non guilded players however)...

So we have our hypothetical player who has bought everything they want ~ do they win?

Umm how about no?

You see the thing with an MMO is that while it has a high population that population is based on a lot of churn at the low end and a relatively small relatively stable population at the high end...

Reputation matters...

You can buy all the gear you want but if you're a tool you're still a tool in eMaralith weilding an eSoS you'd have to be crazy to think otherwise...

In fact the players who have aggressively bought their gear are the ones most blacklisted ~ because they just cant play well...

The only reason I could see for people taking a Play To Win approach in DDO would be to try and break into the high end raiding/epic scene (I assume the acceptance into that would be the Win for them) but these are the people most vigoriously rejected...

Conclusion ~ Myth : Busted...

[Sigava]

"Pay to Win" ~ its a term that gets thrown around a fair bit on the forums I've noticed...


You seem to be taking the phrase "Pay to Win" a bit too literally.

Few people think you can actually Win DDO.

Most people complaining/commenting on Pay to Win are referring to how throwing money at the DDO store can assist in overcoming obstacles or accomplishing goals easier or faster than through skill or hard work alone.

The two most obvious examples of this are Spell Point Potions and the new Tomes of Learning. A healer with $50 bucks to throw away on spell point potions from the DDO store can spam Heal/Mass Heal/Mass Cures till the cows come home and just chug potions to make up the difference. A healer relying on skill, experience and gear alone has to work to increase his or her spell point capacity, and learn how to carefully manage spell points as well as read the encounter. In this situation, the person with a tremendous amount of disposable income has "payed to win" a specific encounter.

Similarly, Tomes of Learning allow one to spend real world money in order to accomplish a goal faster, namely achieving level 20. Tomes of Learning provide a stacks-with-everything bonus to experience gained from quests, allowing one to get to 20 faster. A player relying on hard work has to earn about 10-20% more experience total to make up the difference provided by a Greater Tome of Learning. In this case the player with a tremendous amount of disposable income has "payed to win" a faster trip to level 20, saving a lot of time and effort.

There's nothing inherently wrong or immoral about dumping money into the game to get something easier. Such individuals are the driving force behind new content development as well as keeping the lights on around here. Continuing on the subscription "Everyone gets fair treatment" MMO model, Turbine was probably 12-18 months away from having to shut down some or all of the servers. Converting to the micro-transaction "Pay to Win" MMO model (and some believe pioneering it among major MMOs), Turbine has flourished.

So sure, that freshly level 20 Favored Soul might have pounded 30 Major SP pots (which was only about 1/20th of the number he bought when they were TOTALLY A DEAL AT 20% OFF) to heal his first ToD, but he didn't just pay for himself to win. He payed for all of us to win because it's those people who've only got 90 minutes a night to play cause they have a 6 figure salaried job plus a family that demands most of their time and consequently throw money at the game since their time is more valuable than $50 bucks bi-weekly who pay Turbine's salaries.

[Dandonk]

So, you're OK with it if Turbine starts selling eSOS in the Store?

Pay2Win is, for me, just a short hand way of saying: "Paying RL cash to get raid-equivalent loot or other significant in game bonuses that are not (except for the extremely lucky in some cases) available in the game otherwise (etc)"

You do not feel like you've "won" something when you finally get that eclaw set? or eSOS? or completionist? At least in the sense of accomplishment?

[Urjak]

...

Do they get a Car? a House? a Supermodel? a Unicorn err ok with the pets not best example but you see what I mean...

...



What? I don't get a supermodel when I win DDO??? :O O_O ... guess I need to find some other game :D

seriously though:
P2W means you can just spend some money to be actually better in the game without investing lots of time and having luck ... examples have been mentioned by others^^

ofc in a FTP model with micro-transactions like DDO uses, there is always some degree of P2W ... the important part is balance here ... noone minds Turbine selling plain +2 weapons ... the other extreme would be if they started selling epic gear ... the right point is important and IMO apart from the +3 tomes they did a quite well job here (yeah sp potions might be up for discussion ... but IMO you either drink them like water, then you have to have a really well paid job to buy all those pots ... or you use them liberally ... in the later case, chances are that you will learn better sp management with the time and thus won't need store pots after a while anyways ... IMO not such a big deal)

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

So, you're OK with it if Turbine starts selling eSOS in the Store?

Pay2Win is, for me, just a short hand way of saying: "Paying RL cash to get raid-equivalent loot or other significant in game bonuses that are not (except for the extremely lucky in some cases) available in the game otherwise (etc)"

You do not feel like you've "won" something when you finally get that eclaw set? or eSOS? or completionist? At least in the sense of accomplishment?

Doesn't matter to me. I've never pulled an SoS, or bothered to farm one, and I've done fine without it. And while I do feel a sense of accomplishment (or more often, relief) at pulling this or that rare item or grinding out enough to finish crafting whatever, that doesn't have any bearing on anyone else. And someone's ability to buy stack of pots in the store doesn't diminish how I feel about finding a major pot in an otherwise empty end reward list.

Everything else is just plain envy.

[Kmnh]

If you pull out your credit card and buy a stack of 100 store pots to drag this horrible party to the finish line, you are paying to win. Simple enough. That's not a bad thing. Someone has to pay to keep the servers up :D

[My2Cents]

I win.

You can all go home now.

I win every day that DDO provides me with entertainment, an escape from the outside world, or personals atisfaction, or any combination of the above.

To me, online PVE entertainment is about collaboration and competing with one's own inner goals, or should be, anyway. The only issue with payment is if the payment system creates a situation where important features become substantially unavailable to those who can't or won't pay. In that case, the enjoyment AND support model of the game are threatened. If that problem is kept in check, then it seems a reasonable accommodation has been reached.

But Dats Just Mee!

[varusso]

I couldnt care less what they sell in the DDO store. For all I care they could put an item in there that gives you an automatic quest completion on Elite/Epic, with all applicable bonuses. Doesnt mean I would buy it, and I really dont care if someone else does -- they only short themselves on the actual entertainment value of the game. Of course, such an item WOULD be bought by the buckets full -- by players who would quickly grow bored and move on if they kept doing it, rather like playing with godmode active. <waves fondly> So long and thanks for all the fish!

Fortunately, Turbine does a very good job of thinking store items through and measuring their potential impact on the game. Items that overpower a toon and cause them to lose interest in the game as a result (lack of challenge) are bad for business. They make more $$ by selling non-game-breaking items over and over to people who STAY in the game.

The vast majority of the store items are cosmetic, and those that arent, are focused on convenience rather than real power. Does a stack of SP pots or an XP boost offer an advantage? Of course it does, or it wouldnt be worth buying (since it doesnt make your armor all pretty and stuff). But it is really more a convenience than anything. You dont have to manage your SP as much, and you dont have to farm up the better gear to help you conserve/replenish (SP pots). You dont have to hit Bloody Crypt, Shadow Crypt, VON, Vale, etc. quite so many times to get to cap (XP boosts/tomes).

Are these technically power boosts? From a certain perspective, yes. Do I REALLY care if someone P2Ws their way through a quest, even if i am in it? No, not really. I am about 1000 times more concerned about the mob/trap/chest in front of me than what is in the backpack (or wallet) of the player beside me.

[CR-Shadowborn]

I couldnt care less what they sell in the DDO store. For all I care they could put an item in there that gives you an automatic quest completion on Elite/Epic, with all applicable bonuses. Doesnt mean I would buy it, and I really dont care if someone else does -- they only short themselves on the actual entertainment value of the game. Of course, such an item WOULD be bought by the buckets full -- by players who would quickly grow bored and move on if they kept doing it, rather like playing with godmode active. <waves fondly> So long and thanks for all the fish!

Fortunately, Turbine does a very good job of thinking store items through and measuring their potential impact on the game. Items that overpower a toon and cause them to lose interest in the game as a result (lack of challenge) are bad for business. They make more $$ by selling non-game-breaking items over and over to people who STAY in the game.

The vast majority of the store items are cosmetic, and those that arent, are focused on convenience rather than real power. Does a stack of SP pots or an XP boost offer an advantage? Of course it does, or it wouldnt be worth buying (since it doesnt make your armor all pretty and stuff). But it is really more a convenience than anything. You dont have to manage your SP as much, and you dont have to farm up the better gear to help you conserve/replenish (SP pots). You dont have to hit Bloody Crypt, Shadow Crypt, VON, Vale, etc. quite so many times to get to cap (XP boosts/tomes).

Are these technically power boosts? From a certain perspective, yes. Do I REALLY care if someone P2Ws their way through a quest, even if i am in it? No, not really. I am about 1000 times more concerned about the mob/trap/chest in front of me than what is in the backpack (or wallet) of the player beside me.

^^This +1 to you Sir
As long as the DDO store is balanced then who really cares what they sell in it.
I just don't want to see stuff like Torc's or rings of spell storing and the parts to make them epic available in the store.

[Antheal]

So, you're OK with it if Turbine starts selling eSOS in the Store?

Pay2Win is, for me, just a short hand way of saying: "Paying RL cash to get raid-equivalent loot or other significant in game bonuses that are not (except for the extremely lucky in some cases) available in the game otherwise (etc)"

You do not feel like you've "won" something when you finally get that eclaw set? or eSOS? or completionist? At least in the sense of accomplishment?

Why is that a problem? I mean other than "it doesn't seem fair" why exactly is this A Bad Thing, really?

[Urjak]

Why is that a problem? I mean other than "it doesn't seem fair" why exactly is this A Bad Thing, really?

many reasons:
.) RL wealth should not translate in in-game wealth
.) What's the point of playing end-game at all, if you could simply do some over-hours and just buy it from the DDO-store
.) If you then buy every single piece of epic gear from the DDO store ... why play endgame at all?
.) Then you think some more TRs might make you more powerful ... buy them in the DDO store too ... yay triple completionist bu-ya! => Why TR any more?
.) No point in TRing, no point in running end-game, no point in gaming? ... once you played this game for a certain period of time, the biggest motivation simply is "getting that shiny"^^ ... yeah when everything is new ... exploring is more than enough fun ... but once you ran each and every quest 20+ times ... they are simply becoming stale ... you simply got two options then: quit or try-to-get-all-those-shinies ... if you can simply buy all those shinies ... meh ... also the content would need to be designed only for those that have everything in order to at least keep some of those players => what about those that didn't spend several thousand euroes / dollars / whatever on the store? they would then simply have the choice of either only sticking to low levels or buy all those things too => very very bad design => in the end: those that buy everything won't play (no challenge / new content / other things to strive for), those that don't buy everything won't play either since they won't survive endgame content that is now balanced only for those that have everything => noone plays => DDO dies => won't happen ;)

lastly: don't get me wrong ... those shinies aren't the only motivation^^ ... I mean when level cap was 16 we kept on playing too^^ ... simply because we created one alt after the other ... but most of us who play this game for years have somewhat exhausted those options too^^ ... and yeah the game itself is ofc still fun after 4 (or more) years of gaming ... but just the gameplay itself, without anything to strive for: not enough to keep me playing

you could also compare that to my favorite sports: rock climbing:
the challenge is the interesting thing ... ofc climbing itself is fun too and I often climb stuff that is easy for me ... but in the end? I want to climb hard stuff where I really feel satisfaction when I am finally able to do it ... if I could go in a shop and buy something that all of a sudden turns me in a godlike climber (without any training or side effects), better than anyone has ever been / will ever be ... would I buy it? of course! ... would I have much fun afterwards? probably not ... the very same is true for DDO

since this already got so long again: final words: an mmo needs goals, remove the goals and you have no mmo

[Dandonk]

Why is that a problem? I mean other than "it doesn't seem fair" why exactly is this A Bad Thing, really?

Because it takes the sense of accomplishment and the challenge out of the game. It's just like cheat codes in single player games. Sure, it's cool to have God Mode on and waltz through the game... but then you end up getting bored and not playing it anymore.
That's what I think will happen if too many high-level things become available in the game - people will get bored with DDO, and leave. New players will see that the only way to get geared like everyone else (we already have "be geared" LFMs - if people who do not buy stuff from the Store will start to have trouble getting into PUGs, this will be plainly bad) is to pay - and many will stop, rather than pay to be in on it.

Having convenience stuff and content in the Store is great. With how vanity pets have sold in other games, why not let people buy more of that here?
Turbine should definitely make money. It's ultimately what keeps the game going. But I think selling raid loot-equivalent stuff in the Store is bad for the longer term. Sure, it sells right now - but when people "have it all", many get bored and leave to find new challenges elsewhere.

[zwiebelring]

) If you then buy every single piece of epic gear from the DDO store ... why play endgame at all?
Building a toon with several past lives and keeping the focus on TRing for those past lives while not ''wasting'' time to gather the items you just bought.

Finally, to enjoy whatever you wanted out of that idea, I can imagine, it is playing with a laid back attitude because you saw too much work in all the items. No problem with me, I earn the money, I spend the money and nobody has ever the right to judge over that without being judged himself.

This all is a problem when the actual features or whatever cannot be achieved without spending real money any more. As long as spending money is an option, it is fine, you can utter critics over an option but in the end it is your decision whether taking it or not.

Anyway your question ca be turned easily back on you:
Where is the point in playing for hours for days when you can buy it directly and save yourself time for enjoying endgame?

It is all about personal opinions and playstyle. As long as you can accept others playstyle and group with people who share yours, everything is fine.

[supot]

Some things are game changing,

TORC,
Epic Ring of Spell Storing,
eSOS?

But +3 Supreme Tomes are not that big of a deal. You get 1/2 of +2 Damage, +1 to Hit, +1 DC, +20 HP, +2 AC,

SP Pots can be game changing, but they are consumable, and mostly what you can achieve with pots, someone else can with proper tactics, a good group and no pots. Yes, its paying to win out of convenience when you're undermanned or in a weak group or soloing.

But what you can buy in the DDO Store cannot make you Better than a good group. It cannot make you Godlike. It can make you match or exceed slightly the power of a Good group for a small period of time. That's not too unfair.

There are many other things in the game that are not fair. If you somehow get into a high level guild, you are way ahead. If you have friends that are veteran players who are rich and help you out, then you are ahead. If you have a guild or friends that run raids regularly and teach you, you are ahead. If you have guildies and vet friends who are going to pass you the loot you need, you are ahead. If you have a Crafted friend who's level 150/200, you're ahead.

Similarly, there are also BTA and BTC items, but money isn't BTA and not everything is.

Turbine does a good job in keeping the DDO store and other areas of the game Fair.. Fair enough to be fun.

[Nagantor]

Does if feel less of an accomplishment to get rare items when others can simply buy them? Yes. Does it hurt the game? Yes. (You can't guess experience of the player from equipment anymore.) But would it really destroy the game? Probably not, unlikely it'll ever get put to test as well. They do look out to keep enough carrots in the game.
So, pay2win doesn't really destroy all to much. What would really kill the game (and does it for many other "f2p" games is: pay2play. Many games have the model of get free start and then pay lots of money or you can't compete at all anymore. If you see potions giving special buffs for money only and quests which are 99% fail without those buffs - then you see a bad model. Yes, people can pay to get e.g. xp faster - why would it hurt me? I'm not in a race to reach lvl 20 quicker then others. I feel more offended when a healer chugs a ton of pots in a quest. Because this means either the healer is bad and compensating, or the group isn't up to the challenge and the healers compensate it. If everyone works together, we have fun as a group and get the quest done without major trouble or ressource usage (compensating bad luck, lag or whatever through skill and thought) - then I win ddo.

[mobrien316]

.) What's the point of playing end-game at all, if you could simply do some over-hours and just buy it from the DDO-store
.) If you then buy every single piece of epic gear from the DDO store ... why play endgame at all?


I play DDO because I enjoy it. I assume that is why most people play it.

I agree with the OP. “Pay to win” is a myth, for the most part.

Bad players are annoying to group with. That is a fact. A lot of people who believe that also believe that enabling anyone to buy the +5 Goggles of Awesomeness in the store, when other people get them by running a certain raid 5 times, 50 times, or 500 times, means that bad players will then have access to items that only “good” players should have access to. Now you have a bad player running around with the awesome item that someone else ran a raid 500 times to get, which equals “DOOM!” in a lot of player’s eyes.

My response to that has always been, “So what?” If I am in a raid with eleven other people, and six of them are wielding an eSoS, why would it matter to me how each person got theirs? If one guy ran eVoN five times and got it, and another guy ran it fifty times and got, and another guy ran it once with his guild and had everyone pass him all their stuff to make it, and another guy bought his in the store, who cares?

The only thing that matters is if they can play. If they are idiots who can’t play, I don’t care if they “earned” their eSoS by grinding that raid a thousand times; they are still idiots and I don’t want to group with them. If they are good players, I really don’t care how they got their gear. Why would I? What possible difference could it make to me? If DDO decides to sell raid loot in the store and someone buys something, how does that affect me? There are literally an infinite number of items in DDO; how many items other people have don’t affect my chances of getting one at all.

The only exception would be if you could buy things in the store (for cash only, not for TP that you get for free) that could not get in-game. If Free-to-Play was limited to level 5, and you had to pay to level up past that, I could see the rationale behind labeling that “pay to win.” If you could buy a permanent haste item in the store, or a +10 tome, and you couldn’t get one anywhere in-game, that would be more along the lines of “pay to win” because you have to spend real money in order to get the items. Needless to say, none of that is happening.

I think the “pay to win is DOOM!” philosophy is largely based upon the irrational obsession some players have with other people’s loot. The same philosophy that causes people to freak out over who passed what piece of loot to who, and who rolled on what item despite playing this class or that class, is the same ideation that professes doom by labeling the DDO store as Pay to Win.

If you are in the Harbor with your 4th level character who started at level one, and you join a group with five other 4th level characters, does it matter to anyone how they got there? If one guy earned veteran status through favor, and another guy bought his at the store, and another guy started at level one and used store-bought 30% pots to get to level four, does any of that matter? Of course not. All that matters is if the other players in the group can play. If they can play you will enjoy yourself (or, at least, you should.) If they are lousy players you will get out of that group at the first opportunity, right?

[zwiebelring]

Does it hurt the game? Yes.
No. It only hurts the ego of some people. And it influences the pvp area. But pvp is no big platform in DDO. Actually, with the 3rd time named item reward the term of pay-to-win became obsolete.

I worked for my unlocked Pale Lavendar, first I was lucky to pull it and much much later I found people who made the grinding for essence pieces fun and not work. Then, 6 months later, they changed the reward system and now? Everybody has a little Stone orbiting around his head. Does it hurt me? No, because I had my achievement and fun that time.

It affected solo achievements though because some things are only possible with particular items or stats. But what exactly can you buy to win in DDO? Sio far, I only see longterm items like Tomes which anyway are a one time investment now. Then, next important option are major sp potions.

Hell yeah, when I want to get a quest done for the heck of it I spend money for TPs/pot.s if I want to. That does not give me any incentive to not practise being better it just is a a opportunity cost claculation. I'd rather spend 300 TPs then give up after 2 hours.

[Urjak]

Building a toon with several past lives and keeping the focus on TRing for those past lives while not ''wasting'' time to gather the items you just bought.

Finally, to enjoy whatever you wanted out of that idea, I can imagine, it is playing with a laid back attitude because you saw too much work in all the items. No problem with me, I earn the money, I spend the money and nobody has ever the right to judge over that without being judged himself.

This all is a problem when the actual features or whatever cannot be achieved without spending real money any more. As long as spending money is an option, it is fine, you can utter critics over an option but in the end it is your decision whether taking it or not.

Anyway your question ca be turned easily back on you:
Where is the point in playing for hours for days when you can buy it directly and save yourself time for enjoying endgame?

It is all about personal opinions and playstyle. As long as you can accept others playstyle and group with people who share yours, everything is fine.

first: if you bought all epic items ... why not buy the TRs as well? ;p You see where this leads to?

second: A big problem is temptation ... its similiar to "I should loose weight, but that ham looks sooooo tasty^^" ... once you have the epic stuff in the store, people WILL buy it ... for some people that will be okay ... but for most not ... again: an mmo needs goal or "carrots"^^ ... remove them and players will stop playing ... why? what was the highest number you replayed one and the same single player game? Once? sure. Twice? Rarely. 37 times? NEVER!

[TempestAlphaOmega]

What is P2W?

Everyone has a slightly different view on what exactly constitutes this, that is just human nature, but I expect that before this thread is closed there will be arguments over what it absolutely has to mean.

Is it the ability to "win" by having the best premium items only available for purchase with real funds?
Is it the ability to "win" by purchasing quality or rare items with real funds?
Is it the ability to "win" by having any item that influences game play available for real funds?

I find the first one anoying in a PvP enviroment but in a PvE enviroment such as DDO I really don't care that much (if at all). The second and third versions don't come into play at all.

Too many people try to tell others how they should be playing the game, how they have to do things to find enjoyment, how things have to be for them to be challanged, all based on what they believe is true for themselves.

You want to buy that eSoS go ahead, I really don't care. I find my enjoyment in this game based on my own experiences and anyone else's luck or wallet doesn't excite me (well except for my wife's :)).

I know there are people tempted to explain to me how the way I feel is wrong, I have seen the points made in prior threads about this topic, if you feel the need to repeat them go ahead, that is what forums are for.

hmmm, just realized I need more popcorn, dang it. How do they expect me to enjoy these threads at work when there is no popcorn.

[LightBear]

Pay to win is allready in the game.

The most noticable are the true hearts of wood, buy enough of them and eventually you will win ddo, officially that is.

[zwiebelring]

if you bought all epic items ... why not buy the TRs as well? ;p You see where this leads to?
Because I have different priorities? I want to enjoy the quests but because you need some specific stuff for specific content which is much likely a have-to-grind-item I avoid grinding to enjoy the story arc or grouping in general.

The only thing I fear with buying stuff like eSoS is, if it became not available any longer by normal ingame options (different from instore options ;))

edit:
and you know what? I thought TRing was a store-only option till I stepped into epics and figured that you had to gather 20 tokens...

[Urjak]

Pay to win is allready in the game.

The most noticable are the true hearts of wood, buy enough of them and eventually you will win ddo, officially that is.

getting the hearts can also be done by challenge farming or "oldschool" epic quests farming ... doesn't take that much time compared to the actual TRing

but as I stated in my first post in here: I m fine with the items that are in store now (apart from +3 tomes maybe) ... but adding epic / raid loot? or even plain out completionist? NO WAY!

[sebastianosmith]

first: if you bought all epic items ... why not buy the TRs as well? ;p You see where this leads to?

What I see is a trail of false supposition leading to concerns over events that have yet to transpire or even be vaguely hinted at by Turbine. The "Slippery Slope" argument is generally put forward when no legitimate cause of distress can be reasonably located.

[Urjak]

Because I have different priorities? I want to enjoy the quests but because you need some specific stuff for specific content which is much likely a have-to-grind-item I avoid grinding to enjoy the story arc or grouping in general.

The only thing I fear with buying stuff like eSoS is, if it became not available any longer by normal ingame options (different from instore options ;))

Considering story - arcs:
I can't think of any quest raid that can't be done on normal with just plain random loot gear ... will you need good gear to do everything on epic? True ... but on epic the story arc is the same as on normal difficulty ... if you just want to experience the quests themselves ... the story lines ... RP ... you don't need specific gear for that

[Urjak]

What I see is a trail of false supposition leading to concerns over events that have yet to transpire or even be vaguely hinted at by Turbine. The "Slippery Slope" argument is generally put forward when no legitimate cause of distress can be reasonably located.

AFAIK there have been neither announcement for epic / raid gear in the store nor buying finished past lives ... both are just thing I think would hurt the game a lot (and some posts above someone was asking "why not add eSoS to the store?" ... all these responses were directed to this issue) and thus don't want in the game

the current store is fine (more or less)

[bigolbear]

This ol argument again,

I see it from both sides, What we have in this game is actualy a nice balance.

Those people with lots of spare time generaly have little spare cash. (i curently fall into this category)
Those people with lots of spare cash generaly have little spare time. (i used to fall into this category)

Im curently not working - due to disability not being a slacker, I used to have a well paid job tho and you can bet That in those days if the store was available I would have purchased things like mana pots with real cash rather than spent time grinding the crapola out of giant hold and invaders to prep my self for raids. Yes thats what we used to do - we used to spend a significant portion of our time grinding up resources so we could be preped for raids. Now these days we have a choice, we can either do exactly what we used to (good if you have spare time) or throw cash at it (good if you have spare cash).

Now I would like to add that back in the day, the mele guys used to help out more with mana pots, scroll costs and wand costs, they even used to help us grind out more when reserves were runnig low. The good ones still do btw.

The only issue 'pay to win' has caused is that some people now opperate under the assumption that someone else will pay for them to win, I guess some folks always did tho - its the people, not the game. Just remember what goes around comes around and somethimes we need to help each other out. This stuff flies both ways btw, Party resources are exactly that, whatever form they take.

[zwiebelring]

Considering story - arcs:
I can't think of any quest raid that can't be done on normal with just plain random loot gear ... will you need good gear to do everything on epic? True ... but on epic the story arc is the same as on normal difficulty ... if you just want to experience the quests themselves ... the story lines ... RP ... you don't need specific gear for that
I disagree here. Depending on my playstyle I might want to be prepared and might have problems even on casual. If preparation means crafting and I notice the big amount of time for doing that then I might be taking the easier solution. Auction House is pay-to-win as well btw ;P.

If people complain about p2w then this is the evry first feature they had to ignore. Along with it guild ships and greensteel altars.

I will precise (?) my statement. If I feel the need of buying something out of the store I can accept it and I like having the option if that particular situation is about to happen. If I have(!) to buy something out of the store for something then p2w destroys everything.

Recognizing the options it is an opportunity cost calculation of time I have to spend vs. time I am willing to spend. With the current options I do not see any interference between me who buys stuff like sp pots or +3 Tomes and others.

[Dandonk]

What I see is a trail of false supposition leading to concerns over events that have yet to transpire or even be vaguely hinted at by Turbine. The "Slippery Slope" argument is generally put forward when no legitimate cause of distress can be reasonably located.

My "slippery slope" argument was against the OP's argument that nothing that could possibly be put in the Store would be bad. So I wanted to see if he really meant that selling completionist, eSOS or other things of that ilk would be just fine.

I don't think the Store, as is, is bad. I do think +3 tomes is leaning a little towards my personal line, but it's not a deal breaker for me. Especially the way it was handled was bad, but I'll live.

[mobrien316]

As someone mentioned, I think it is a nice balance that appeals to the broadest possible base of players.


Do you have lots of free time, little money, and want to run this raid or that raid as many times as it takes to get the loot you want? Great - have at it.


Do you have very little free time, sufficient disposable income, and want to buy the loot you want in the store? I say that's great, too.


It doesn't matter to others in DDO how you got your loot. Some people think it does, but it really doesn't. If you are in an eVoN raid with another player who is carrying an eSoS, it truly doesn't matter if he got it by raiding five times, fifty times, five hundred times, or if he bought it in the store. The only thing that affects you is if he can play and work with the group toward a successful completion. If he can, why do you care how he got his sword? If he can't, why do you care how he got his sword?

[Chai]

The english language is rife with slang which has evolved well beyond the sum of the literal meanings of the words in the term. Pay to win is just one of many of those types of slang terms.

Its hilarious, because while people are perfectly willing to accept an increasing degree of pay to win in this game, they dont like the term itself, so they try to redefine it, and act like they arent participating in it, when in fact they are. These threads keep popping up with "no way dooods it aint pay to win" - when they darn well know it is, and it is also progressing in degree.

The reason why people dont like the term is because it has an assumed negative connotation, such as someone lacking skill so they need to pay to more easily attain items. While this is true in most games, in DDO its more often used to circumvent the time factor.

[Ancient]

The english language is rife with slang which has evolved well beyond the sum of the literal meanings of the words in the term. Pay to win is just one of many of those types of slang terms.

Its hilarious, because while people are perfectly willing to accept an increasing degree of pay to win in this game, they dont like the term itself, so they try to redefine it, and act like they arent participating in it, when in fact they are. These threads keep popping up with "no way dooods it aint pay to win" - when they darn well know it is, and it is also progressing in degree.
A faster computer, a better internet connection, a game guide, a gaming mouse, tribute to avoid wagro. RL does impact the game, long before the turbine store. If you want to take a purist stance, then any internet mmorpg game was corrupted long ago. If you start splitting hairs and saying that a store in the game is pay to win and everything else isn't... then you're playing the same game that you find so funny...

The relevant question is where to draw the line and how to enforce it.

[Chai]

A faster computer, a better internet connection, a game guide, a gaming mouse, tribute to avoid wagro. RL does impact the game, long before the turbine store. If you want to take a purist stance, then any internet mmorpg game was corrupted long ago. If you start splitting hairs and saying that a store in the game is pay to win and everything else isn't... then you're playing the same game that you find so funny...

The relevant question is where to draw the line and how to enforce it.

Its not an absolute statement in the first place, but a matter of degree. You cant draw a line and say everything over this line is pay to win and everything on our side is not. Each individual will draw that line in a different spot as far as what they are satisfied with.

MMOs that didnt have a store have plat farmers, and there are a percentage of players who do buy and sell to those websites, even when it is against game policy to do so. Turbine just wizened up and started doing it themselves, because if they are the ones who made the game, and they see a decent demand for easier item acquisition due to money payment, why shouldnt they be the ones to benefit from pay to win.

The fact is, it is still pay to win however, regardless of justification.

[moriedhel]

We live in a competitive cooperative society, that's the way we are educated. That is to say, at work, in our homes and our daily lives we need to cooperate with other individuals in order to achieve goals. But at the same time, we are in constant social competition over who has the best and biggest what (wife, job, family, car, you name it). That social competition is there to replace "survival of the fittest", as we have been educated that in order to posses the things that we want, we need to work for it (instead of doing the PvP thing and going to the dude that has them, trying to kick his ass and take his stuff lol)

In the context of a PvE MMO, the equivalent of pay to win in real life would be someone buying their college diploma, and achieving some or all the prestige and other social or economical perks that come with it, without having actually ever worked to study. If you studied 5 years for your diploma, and someone else just bought it, you can still argue that that doesn't immediately mean you'll lose your job, you'll get paid less or personally be affected in any way. But the majority of society, who doesn't know he/she bought that diploma, will see you both the same: graduates of college X.

What you really should be asking yourself is why do people take these kind of serious issues and translate them into a MMO game :) Then you'll likely find out some of the more deeper psychological reasons behind why people play so much, take mmo's so seriously and get so addicted.

[zwiebelring]

We live in a competitive cooperative society, that's the way we are educated.
Sorry not me.

And I really think this compare of item = college diploma is way out of the line. The competition is not there unless you want to have it. I don't care for competition so I don't care to compete with others. But I want to cooperate with others in a context of this MMO.

And well, to hit your statement of working for what I want to get... I earn the money I spend and if I spend it for an item I sure earned it.

You don't have money? Well, go and get a job ;).

[LOOON375]

This whole issue comes from a certain group of people that fear that others might get what they already have.

It's funny. I don't hear the people that built the DDO wiki complaining that new people have it easier. I don't hear the people that spent the time and resources figuring out the Green steel crafting complaining.

There are a few items that I will buy from the store. But 99% of it I refuse to touch.

Winning in this game and 'pay to win' in this game differs from one person to the next.

The last time I checked, this is a team oriented game, not a 'me versus everyone' else game.

People come to this forum to get build advice or to get their build critiqued. Is that an unfair advantage? Should people turn those people away by saying "I had to learn how to build my own toons, so you are SOL. Go figure it out on your own!"?

All the time, in game and on these forums, I hear "reroll, your build sucks", or "your gear sucks and you can't be in our group", then those same people are usually the ones that complain that those same people get the gear by easier means.

Then Turbine improves the drop rates for some items and that same group of folks jump on here and complain about that. "it was hard for me, why should they have it easier?"

My personal observation about this game, is that a ton of the items in this game are nothing but a status symbol and a reason to brag, or a reason to bash others. A large portion of the epic gear can easily be outdone by non epic gear that drops in the newer content. It's easier to get and not a PITA to get. But ignorant folks will deny those well geared people simply because they don't own a piece of epic gear..."status symbol"

Guild ships make this game tons easier. Is that pay to win? Probably depends on who you ask.

[moriedhel]

Sorry not me.

And I really think this compare of item = college diploma is way out of the line. The competition is not there unless you want to have it. I don't care for competition so I don't care to compete with others. But I want to cooperate with others in a context of this MMO.

And well, to hit your statement of working for what I want to get... I earn the money I spend and if I spend it for an item I sure earned it.

You don't have money? Well, go and get a job ;).

I don't care much for this kind of competition either but just because you or I don't participate I doubt you can deny that it's actually happening between other people.

Yes the comparison is out of line in a sense, the connection shouldn't be made between them but I am pretty sure that people that take the whole pay to win thing very seriously in PvE make similar connections in their minds, maybe not even consciously, but I believe they are there.

As for how you got your money, supposing i only know you from a MMO, i could just as easily believe you just won the lotto or something, You can't prove to me that you worked for the money, but if you screenshot me your /completions you could prove you actually ran 20 shrouds for that cleanser, get the idea now? :p

[phillymiket]

The DDO store seems to save time grinding more then allows "win" I feel.
There is little you can not get in game with a little playing.

Tomes? I buy them for all my toons I must admit but I sell so many on the AH that I pull that I could probably get organized and save them and eliminate that. (+3 tomes is another story)

SP pots? That's the big one. Early on it greatly improved my ability (and slowed the learning curve too). Now I'm pretty sur I find at least as many as I drink (or close to it).

Basically, my point is by the time you gt close to anything that could be considered being a warlock, tiger-blooded Charlie Sheen from Mars in DDO you have progressed beyond needing the store.

It just helps newer players with cash not have their lack of skill impact their performance as badly.

Or in other words New Player w/credit card much better then New Player w/o. Vet with credit card not so much difference.
.

[zwiebelring]

As for how you got your money, supposing i only know you from a MMO, i could just as easily believe you just won the lotto or something, You can't prove to me that you worked for the money, but if you screenshot me your /completions you could prove you actually ran 20 shrouds for that cleanser, get the idea now?
LOL, you got me, +1 for uncovering my loads of lottery money.

Yes, it is happening, but somehow I miss the point where there is a compelling trend towards it. Right now, everything you can buy is an option. As long as something stays an option, the only advantage of buying something is time you get and can use differently. I do not see something bad in that situation.

But the people who had to cycle on a rusty bike, without saddle, squeeking frame, in a Blizzard uphill somehow use a pay-to-win offensive for others who simply have other priorities.

I mean, every VIP does pay-to-win in that regard because a VIP can access every content at once. F2P players are the only people who should complain.

[sebastianosmith]

...I really think this compare of item = college diploma is way out of the line.

Not really. I think the thrust of moriedhel's argument applies equally to either. And frankly, my diploma stopped being of any value before the ink dried on my first W-4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_forms_in_the_United_States#W-4) (link provided for our non-US friends).

[moriedhel]

Right now, everything you can buy is an option.

As my teacher used to say: "in life the only mandatory thing is dying, everything else is an option" :p I understand what you're saying, that the relevance of the cash shop and the in game process of getting items are balanced at the moment, true. I've seen much much worse cash shops.

[Uhtred_Stark]

This whole issue comes from a certain group of people that fear that others might get what they already have.

This. It all boils down to this. Some people feel it slights their characters when other people get the same high equipment they have and they don't feel so elite/exclusive/awesome/whatever. I don't see why people care what other characters have. The only reason I can imagine is that it makes them feel less super powered and that is where they derive their enjoyment of the game.

Turbine is developing an expansion that is all about epic levels. OF COURSE they are going to make it easier for more of the general population play those levels, not just the top 1%. I don't see how that is a bad thing. The 1% shouldn't enjoy all the benefits.

[Chai]

This whole issue comes from a certain group of people that fear that others might get what they already have.

It's funny. I don't hear the people that built the DDO wiki complaining that new people have it easier. I don't hear the people that spent the time and resources figuring out the Green steel crafting complaining.

There are a few items that I will buy from the store. But 99% of it I refuse to touch.

Winning in this game and 'pay to win' in this game differs from one person to the next.

The last time I checked, this is a team oriented game, not a 'me versus everyone' else game.

People come to this forum to get build advice or to get their build critiqued. Is that an unfair advantage? Should people turn those people away by saying "I had to learn how to build my own toons, so you are SOL. Go figure it out on your own!"?

All the time, in game and on these forums, I hear "reroll, your build sucks", or "your gear sucks and you can't be in our group", then those same people are usually the ones that complain that those same people get the gear by easier means.

Then Turbine improves the drop rates for some items and that same group of folks jump on here and complain about that. "it was hard for me, why should they have it easier?"

My personal observation about this game, is that a ton of the items in this game are nothing but a status symbol and a reason to brag, or a reason to bash others. A large portion of the epic gear can easily be outdone by non epic gear that drops in the newer content. It's easier to get and not a PITA to get. But ignorant folks will deny those well geared people simply because they don't own a piece of epic gear..."status symbol"

Guild ships make this game tons easier. Is that pay to win? Probably depends on who you ask.

It is absolutely not having anything to do with fear of people getting what I or anyone else already has.

Its about making a game and not even having to play the game in the first place to get most of the desired items. To what degree is this acceptable? This certainly is different on a person by person basis, but people trying to define the DDO situation as not being pay to win due to it not adhering to the sum of all of the literal definitions of each word in the term is hilarious, because the english language has never worked this way in the first place. http://i40.tinypic.com/24y9uus.jpg

In all of the MMOs that have succumbed to pay to win that I have played, its the people who supported pay to win the most who leave first. At first it seems like a great convenience mechanism for them, allowing them to save time, but the more P2W mechanics are added to the game, and the more the customer uses them, the less the game appeals to them anymore. When having a well geared toon is no longer a challenge and not something people have to earn playing the game, there becomes far less reason to even play. Soon enough it becomes less of a convenience mechanism, and more of a system where someone can have whatever pixels they want by swiping a credit card. The more the game shifts toward this, the less fun it will become. The attrition at the high end is already increasing to the point where the elitists who used to simply group with eachother now have to pug because there isnt enough of them left. We are already experiencing the effects, and this will become more and more apparent as time passes and the game is made too easy due to more P2W.

[Postumus]

first: if you bought all epic items ... why not buy the TRs as well? ;p You see where this leads to?

second: A big problem is temptation ... its similiar to "I should loose weight, but that ham looks sooooo tasty^^" ... once you have the epic stuff in the store, people WILL buy it ... for some people that will be okay ... but for most not ... again: an mmo needs goal or "carrots"^^ ... remove them and players will stop playing ... why? what was the highest number you replayed one and the same single player game? Once? sure. Twice? Rarely. 37 times? NEVER!

The slippery slope fallacy is never a good foundation for an argument. Even so, if players could buy all the high-end content in the game, they'd probably get very bored very quickly and wouldn't be likely to stick around for long anyway. Which is probably why Turbine won't ever sell esos or epic gear.

Similar to players who use the cheat codes in console games. Generally less challenge = less reward = more boredom = less interest.

[Postumus]

This. It all boils down to this. Some people feel it slights their characters when other people get the same high equipment they have and they don't feel so elite/exclusive/awesome/whatever. I don't see why people care what other characters have.


I think this is also the reason some people get so incredibly butthurt when they've run Demon Queen 80 times only to see Joe Firstimer pull a torc and pass it to his buddy without putting it up for roll first.

[Shinjiteru]

Pay2Win... I think most people complaining about pay2win in DDO never really saw what real Pay2Win means. There are several games out there where there is real pay2win. If you spend 200bucks in there or more you can be asure that only other people who spend that much money have a chance to kill you. Everyone else will have to play several months in areas where they will have a really hard time with every pay2win player killing them without taking any real damage.

It's hard to have Pay2Win in a PvE focused game which only has minor PvP elements.

F2P games live from the players which might have less time playing and spend some money to make up for that and be able to keep up with players who can play 24/7.
But without a decent PvP system you can't win anything in a PvE game other than time.
Yes you have more pots to make the first try a success if it's only a matter of time/sp and not a complete party fail, but most of the players who are doing that don't have that much play time to be able to fail each raid 2-3 raid befor they complete it without losing the fun of playing that game. (Ok, there are always some strange people who are able to play 80% of their time at work and still get paid a decent amount of money, but I doubt there exist many of these players)


The main problem is that many people become jealous/envious because they had to spend so much time to get something while others could just buy it in the shop, even though the bought items doesn't give them any real/big advantage.

I wouldn't like it if you could buy an eSOS in the shop(I don't have one), but would it really have an impact on gameplay that the buyers have an advantage? Not unless Turbine balances new epic quests/raids to be a challenge for groups full of players with such overpowered items.
Beeing able to buy Large GS mats would be completely ok for me, since I think shroud is just a time sink without any real challenge unless you do it on elite. I like shroud, especially the puzzle part, but it's nothing really difficult compared to Epic raids or Abbot.

I think DDO has a good balance with its DDO store, but for a game without any real PvP it's easier anyways not to end up beeing completely Pay2Win. ^^
And even with a real PvP system I doubt that the +3 tomes would make you overpowered or significantly increase your success chance in a fight.

[Chai]

The slippery slope fallacy is never a good foundation for an argument. Even so, if players could buy all the high-end content in the game, they'd probably get very bored very quickly and wouldn't be likely to stick around for long anyway. Which is probably why Turbine won't ever sell esos or epic gear.

Similar to players who use the cheat codes in console games. Generally less challenge = less reward = more boredom = less interest.

Slippery Slope is a great argument foundation, if one realizes that its not a discussion of absolutes but one of degree. Too many people try to use it to make absolute proclamations however, and thats when it becomes hilarious.

I see the slippery slopy argument criticized alot by the same people, right up to and until they are the ones whose threshold is crossed and it isnt fun for them anymore. Thats when Im sitting accross the table grinning as I flip the "I told you so" card face up, then link posts from 18 months ago where I clearly explained whats happening today. :p

Everyone has different thresholds of acceptability. Its all fun and games to the people who dont mind, because their threshold hasnt been crossed yet. When the next stage of P2W happens and their threshold is crossed is when the hilarity ensues, because they helped make the bed they are now sleeping in - by supporting P2W right up to their threshold, all the while thinking Turbine wont take the next step because it would be completely absurd of them to do so.

Example:

Many of the people carrying on about artificer not being free from the get go for instance, were the same people telling those making the same complaint about FvS to shut up. Somehow its completely Ok to sell something that has a favor unlock, but its not OK to sell something for a period of time as pay only, and then introduce the favor unlock later. Its all in the semantic details of what people are willing to accept and what they are not. That detail of having favor unlock on day one is a minor thing to some, but that little itty bitty detail was the breaking point for many.

[Dawnsfire]

"Pay to Win" ~ its a term that gets thrown around a fair bit on the forums I've noticed...

It really is stupid. I have seen P2W. My brother plays various FB games where a guy can join on day 1 and by day 2 he has all the stuff he needs to beat anyone and anything in the game. That is P2W, DDO is not. I doubt anyone will actually stop doing it because they are under the impression that it is an effective label. All it tells me when I see it is that folks don't know what they are talking about.

[yawumpus]

I mean, gear and shinies mean nothing in this game. It has no grind, and all we do is run quests for the challenge and plot. PvP or PvE has nothing to do with it, since getting the shinies are just part of the story.

/sarcastic.

[KillEveryone]

Real pay to win is when a quest requires the purchase of a item with real money to complete that quest.

Korthos where you have to purchase the grog. You do get something nice for that purchase but it is still pay to win.

People like to toss out their favorite saying to grab attention.

I don't mind Turbine selling exclusive stuff in the store. What they do sell isn't required(aside from korthos) to complete the quests in the game. If someone wants to drop some money on pots, tomes, spell components, whatever floats their boat, that is fine by me.

As long as I don't have to purchase anything to complete the quest, I don't really care what they sell in the store. Once I have to purchase a item just to finish a particular quest and there is no othere possible way to get that item, then I'll start having issues.

[Drekisen]

I don't really believe in pay to win either.

In the end no one is forcing you to buy any of this stuff...you certainly don't need it....and a lot of people who play games like the thrill of accomplishment, so buying such items just defeats that purpose.

I wouldn't put the Tome's of Learning in the pay to win category so much as I would put it in the very badly need TR leveling relief category.

I don't think these so called "pay to win" items are what people label them...I think some people just actually have the money to buy endless amounts of them....while for the average player they are quite nice to be able to get every once in a while just to have on hand for those "uh oh" moments.

I'm not worried about "pay to win" players, because my game skill will always trump their RL money waste.

[yawumpus]

How much of pay2win is pay to not play? Some examples:

veteran/super veteran status: skip certain levels. If unlocked you can do these in your sleep (and will probably run them anyway for your coin lord favor). But they are in the store to skip content.

Tome of xp: looks like more content skipping goodness (to newbies) - actually looks like tome of "one and done, run as many different quests as possible" to older hands.

+2/+3 tomes: pay2win. +2 tomes might be justified as "catching up to what vets can start a new toon with", but search the threads for the screams on this one. Have to ask if they are holding off paladin buffs because what you can build with a full set of +3 tomes.

beholder beaters: my pet peeve. "In other f2p games, you fight brocholi. In ours you fight beholders. With pay2win, you don't have to fight either.

Raid loot/shroud ingredients: pay2skip grind. The catch becomes: what is the game, and what is the grind? If you are skipping near-endgame play to jump to end-game play, how much of this game are you going to see?

[svinja]

Why is that a problem? I mean other than "it doesn't seem fair" why exactly is this A Bad Thing, really?

Because I remember what progression raiding feels like. It is an awesome feeling when you finally complete a raid after wiping in it for a month. It is probably impossible to understand this feeling if you have never experienced it. And it is impossible to experience it in DDO. Not that pay2win is the only reason for this, but it is one of the reasons.

[Urjak]

I disagree here. Depending on my playstyle I might want to be prepared and might have problems even on casual. If preparation means crafting and I notice the big amount of time for doing that then I might be taking the easier solution. Auction House is pay-to-win as well btw ;P.

If people complain about p2w then this is the evry first feature they had to ignore. Along with it guild ships and greensteel altars.

I will precise (?) my statement. If I feel the need of buying something out of the store I can accept it and I like having the option if that particular situation is about to happen. If I have(!) to buy something out of the store for something then p2w destroys everything.

Recognizing the options it is an opportunity cost calculation of time I have to spend vs. time I am willing to spend. With the current options I do not see any interference between me who buys stuff like sp pots or +3 Tomes and others.


I think you miss my point^^ ... I m fine with what the store atm offers ( apart from the occasional +3 tomes ) ... I m opposed to (as someone mentioned) adding epic / raid gear to the store

AH is not PTW since you use ingame plat not RL-money ... also you can only buy unbound stuff on the AH ... both are serious restrictions that balance it, opposed to just "hey my grandma died and I got 20000 $, lets buy all raid gear, epic gear, triple completionist, <insert random uber stuff here> I could possibly ever need"

And considering the MAJOR PTW I was talking about (not the minor one we currently have, which I think is quite perfectly balanced): eSoS, Torc, eTorc, eRoSS, eMarilithChain, 5 piece eAbishai set, eStaff of Inner Sight, eAG, T3 alchemical, T3 greensteel[cleansed], +3/+4 tomes, litany, Bauble, any T3 epic challenge item (although they are a lot easier to get than the rest of this list), ... Tell me ONE quest/raid where you need those in order to succeed on NORMAL difficulty ... I know none ... if you REALLY think you need those in order to succeed on casual as you mentioned ... you are doing something terribly wrong ... maybe we could discuss your build / quests where you got problems on casual without uber-gear in private messages

lastly: why would using greensteel altars be P2W? because you need to buy the Vale of Twilight pack? O_o

[chrichton]

LOL, you got me, +1 for uncovering my loads of lottery money.

Yes, it is happening, but somehow I miss the point where there is a compelling trend towards it. Right now, everything you can buy is an option. As long as something stays an option, the only advantage of buying something is time you get and can use differently. I do not see something bad in that situation.

But the people who had to cycle on a rusty bike, without saddle, squeeking frame, in a Blizzard uphill somehow use a pay-to-win offensive for others who simply have other priorities.

I mean, every VIP does pay-to-win in that regard because a VIP can access every content at once. F2P players are the only people who should complain.
For many, spell pots are not optional. They rely on them to the point where it definitely changes the way they play (no spell point conservation). For those that buy spell pots and drink them like water - I bet they would not be able to play casters without them.

[LOOON375]

For many, spell pots are not optional. They rely on them to the point where it definitely changes the way they play (no spell point conservation). For those that buy spell pots and drink them like water - I bet they would not be able to play casters without them.When I first started playing blue bars, I drank pots until I learned to play them better. Now I hardly ever drink them. Now I may drink one or two during epics or high end raids. And that's only on occasion, or if Im running static with my guild.

Sometimes, stuff happens......

[varusso]

For many, spell pots are not optional. They rely on them to the point where it definitely changes the way they play (no spell point conservation). For those that buy spell pots and drink them like water - I bet they would not be able to play casters without them.

...and?

For many, they would not be able to play melees without HP pots, haste pots, rage pots, resist pots, remove curse pots, remove poison pots, remove disease pots, clickies for GH, scrolls for healing/raising......

Some of it can be bought/farmed in the game, some can be bought in the store. Same goes for SP pots. If the player "must" chug pots, and they want to buy them from the store rather than farm/buy them from the AH -- so what? So long as they keep themselves supplied and dont play that toon in a group when they are NOT supplied, how is that fundamentally different from grinding out the items that help better manage SP? If they would rather buy some pots than spend their time grinding, let them. As long as they dont run out in the middle of a run with your toon (and if they do they will likely just pop open the store and buy more), it doesnt matter in the slightest.

Just means they helped pay for more game development in the long run.

[scoobmx]

pay 2 win refers to the monk class, and the half-elf and half-orc races, which cannot be used unless bought with real money and are all clearly unbalanced and overpowered

[zwiebelring]

I guess everbody agrees that consumables are accepted but important stuff like named items is not accepted as store option.

Anyway DDO works on the simple reward system of all RPGs or character development games. If Turbine gives you named items out of the store then your incentive to run quests will shrink. You only will play DDO when new content is released.

That will not give them money or a relaible customer base. Conclusion is, the fear of buying named items is not justified.

That's why I don't see a problem in the current way.

[Vormaerin]

I mean, gear and shinies mean nothing in this game. It has no grind, and all we do is run quests for the challenge and plot. PvP or PvE has nothing to do with it, since getting the shinies are just part of the story.

/sarcastic.

It might be sarcastic as a description of your gameplay. But that does describe quite a lot of players.

I play for fun. If I reach a point where its 'work' rather than 'play' to try to get an item, I do without the item. I like have loot, of course. But its only relevant in the sense that it increases the difficulty setting of the quest. If I'm geared/skilled enough that hard is not interesting, I run elite. Or whatever.

So, sneer all you want. Just because gear accumulation is your main goal doesn't mean its everyone's.

[Vormaerin]

Tell me ONE quest/raid where you need those in order to succeed on NORMAL difficulty

How is this relevant to anything?

[Vormaerin]

pay 2 win refers to the monk class, and the half-elf and half-orc races, which cannot be used unless bought with real money and are all clearly unbalanced and overpowered

Because we all know that being a subscriber is clearly paying to win.....

[Chai]

I wouldn't put the Tome's of Learning in the pay to win category so much as I would put it in the very badly need TR leveling relief category.

.

BLAM!!! Hook, line, and sinker, right there.

Turbine creates a TR system. What was stopping them from leaving the XP total required to cap a toon regardless of lives at 1.9M? Answer...NOTHING. Nothing at all. But wait....it gets better. They more than DOUBLED the XP required, and did so in a completely arbitrary fashion. Why? Because we said so that why. Then they waited a couple years while people complained about how much of a grind the TR game is just to create one solid toon.

During that time they provide XP pots you can BUY to lessen the grind, but when that isnt enough, they create XP tomes you can BUY as well to further lessen the grind.

1st life = 1.9m XP to cap and each additional life = 1.9m XP to cap + no XP tomes or pots in the store.

-vs-

1st life = 1.9 XP to cap, 2nd life = 3,139,250 to cap, 3rd and every life afterward = 4,378,500 XP to cap + purchasable XP pots and XP tomes in the store.

Roughly the same grind. Whats the difference. $$$$$$$

1. Increase amount of XP required for 3rd or higher life TR to cap.
2. Put purchasable XP pots and XP tomes into the store.
3. ???
4. Profit.

This was literally DESIGNED to be pay to win. They did it in such a fashion over a large enough period of time where people are THANKING them for it, heh. Conveniently no one seems to remember that the amount of XP needed to cap was jacked up to more than double the normal amount in a completely arbitrary fashion, because it was done long enough ago players just think its the standard. This is akin to ramping up prices on specific items in a department store 200% then putting them on sale at 50% off, but the coupon for 50% off is in a book you have to buy, heh.

[mobrien316]

But TR'ing is not required. I know lots of people who have a first life character (or several) at level 20 and they have lots of fun playing.

[macubrae]

I couldnt care less what they sell in the DDO store. For all I care they could put an item in there that gives you an automatic quest completion on Elite/Epic, with all applicable bonuses. Doesnt mean I would buy it, and I really dont care if someone else does -- they only short themselves on the actual entertainment value of the game. Of course, such an item WOULD be bought by the buckets full -- by players who would quickly grow bored and move on if they kept doing it, rather like playing with godmode active. <waves fondly> So long and thanks for all the fish!

Fortunately, Turbine does a very good job of thinking store items through and measuring their potential impact on the game. Items that overpower a toon and cause them to lose interest in the game as a result (lack of challenge) are bad for business. They make more $$ by selling non-game-breaking items over and over to people who STAY in the game.

The vast majority of the store items are cosmetic, and those that arent, are focused on convenience rather than real power. Does a stack of SP pots or an XP boost offer an advantage? Of course it does, or it wouldnt be worth buying (since it doesnt make your armor all pretty and stuff). But it is really more a convenience than anything. You dont have to manage your SP as much, and you dont have to farm up the better gear to help you conserve/replenish (SP pots). You dont have to hit Bloody Crypt, Shadow Crypt, VON, Vale, etc. quite so many times to get to cap (XP boosts/tomes).

Are these technically power boosts? From a certain perspective, yes. Do I REALLY care if someone P2Ws their way through a quest, even if i am in it? No, not really. I am about 1000 times more concerned about the mob/trap/chest in front of me than what is in the backpack (or wallet) of the player beside me.

^^^This is why you are winning DDO^^^

It isn't about who has 'moar stuffz', it's about wanting to play and have fun. I don't care if the toon next to me has the epic version of the weapon that I'm using, or that his accessories are head to toe GS. I'm not playing against him, we are on the same team. Heck, my HA might even make him envy me a little.

[Urjak]

Because I have different priorities? I want to enjoy the quests but because you need some specific stuff for specific content which is much likely a have-to-grind-item I avoid grinding to enjoy the story arc or grouping in general.

The only thing I fear with buying stuff like eSoS is, if it became not available any longer by normal ingame options (different from instore options ;))

edit:
and you know what? I thought TRing was a store-only option till I stepped into epics and figured that you had to gather 20 tokens...


Considering story - arcs:
I can't think of any quest raid that can't be done on normal with just plain random loot gear ... will you need good gear to do everything on epic? True ... but on epic the story arc is the same as on normal difficulty ... if you just want to experience the quests themselves ... the story lines ... RP ... you don't need specific gear for that


I disagree here. Depending on my playstyle I might want to be prepared and might have problems even on casual. If preparation means crafting and I notice the big amount of time for doing that then I might be taking the easier solution. Auction House is pay-to-win as well btw ;P.

If people complain about p2w then this is the evry first feature they had to ignore. Along with it guild ships and greensteel altars.

I will precise (?) my statement. If I feel the need of buying something out of the store I can accept it and I like having the option if that particular situation is about to happen. If I have(!) to buy something out of the store for something then p2w destroys everything.

Recognizing the options it is an opportunity cost calculation of time I have to spend vs. time I am willing to spend. With the current options I do not see any interference between me who buys stuff like sp pots or +3 Tomes and others.


I think you miss my point^^ ... I m fine with what the store atm offers ( apart from the occasional +3 tomes ) ... I m opposed to (as someone mentioned) adding epic / raid gear to the store

AH is not PTW since you use ingame plat not RL-money ... also you can only buy unbound stuff on the AH ... both are serious restrictions that balance it, opposed to just "hey my grandma died and I got 20000 $, lets buy all raid gear, epic gear, triple completionist, <insert random uber stuff here> I could possibly ever need"

And considering the MAJOR PTW I was talking about (not the minor one we currently have, which I think is quite perfectly balanced): eSoS, Torc, eTorc, eRoSS, eMarilithChain, 5 piece eAbishai set, eStaff of Inner Sight, eAG, T3 alchemical, T3 greensteel[cleansed], +3/+4 tomes, litany, Bauble, any T3 epic challenge item (although they are a lot easier to get than the rest of this list), ... Tell me ONE quest/raid where you need those in order to succeed on NORMAL difficulty ... I know none ... if you REALLY think you need those in order to succeed on casual as you mentioned ... you are doing something terribly wrong ... maybe we could discuss your build / quests where you got problems on casual without uber-gear in private messages

lastly: why would using greensteel altars be P2W? because you need to buy the Vale of Twilight pack? O_o


How is this relevant to anything?

See the above quotes ... this should answer your question to how this is relevant ;) (Zwiebelring insisted on needing epic / raid gear for casual/normal quests ... which I simply don't understand)

[sebastianosmith]

BLAM!!! Hook, line, and sinker, right there.

Turbine creates a TR system. What was stopping them from leaving the XP total required to cap a toon regardless of lives at 1.9M? Answer...NOTHING. Nothing at all. But wait....it gets better. They more than DOUBLED the XP required, and did so in a completely arbitrary fashion. Why? Because we said so that why. Then they waited a couple years while people complained about how much of a grind the TR game is just to create one solid toon.

During that time they provide XP pots you can BUY to lessen the grind, but when that isnt enough, they create XP tomes you can BUY as well to further lessen the grind.

1st life = 1.9m XP to cap and each additional life = 1.9m XP to cap + no XP tomes or pots in the store.

-vs-

1st life = 1.9 XP to cap, 2nd life = 3,139,250 to cap, 3rd and every life afterward = 4,378,500 XP to cap + XP pots and XP tomes in the store.

Roughly the same grind. Whats the difference. $$$$$$$

1. Increase amount of XP required for 3rd or higher life TR to cap.
2. Put purchasable XP pots and XP tomes into the store.
3. ???
4. Profit.

This was literally DESIGNED to be pay to win. They did it in such a fashion over a large enough period of time where people are THANKING them for it, heh. Conveniently no one seems to remember that the amount of XP needed to cap was jacked up to more than double the normal amount in a completely arbitrary fashion.

Really? Oh Noes! I is had to make the pays for something I njoys doing! Welcome to life, Chai.

And before you reply - Don't care. I'm fine with it. Would do it again. When it becomes more than I'm willing to pay for what I get out of it, I'll quietly step away. It's just a game.

Best of luck!

[Chai]

I couldnt care less what they sell in the DDO store. For all I care they could put an item in there that gives you an automatic quest completion on Elite/Epic, with all applicable bonuses. Doesnt mean I would buy it, and I really dont care if someone else does -- they only short themselves on the actual entertainment value of the game. Of course, such an item WOULD be bought by the buckets full -- by players who would quickly grow bored and move on if they kept doing it, rather like playing with godmode active. <waves fondly> So long and thanks for all the fish!

Yeap, weve seen that happen in other games. What you dont mention here is that the degree of P2W has increased since the store was introduced to the game. If it continues to increase this game is heading down that path.


Fortunately, Turbine does a very good job of thinking store items through and measuring their potential impact on the game. Items that overpower a toon and cause them to lose interest in the game as a result (lack of challenge) are bad for business. They make more $$ by selling non-game-breaking items over and over to people who STAY in the game.

What they are doing is allowing the majority of players - the newbies who joined over the past year or so, to get within a small fraction of power less than players with the literal best endgame gear item in each slot by paying for it, if they desire. This will affect different people differently depending on their thoughts of people being able to buy what others had to earn, but it affects the game in a huge way, as you outlined above.


The vast majority of the store items are cosmetic, and those that arent, are focused on convenience rather than real power. Does a stack of SP pots or an XP boost offer an advantage? Of course it does, or it wouldnt be worth buying (since it doesnt make your armor all pretty and stuff). But it is really more a convenience than anything. You dont have to manage your SP as much, and you dont have to farm up the better gear to help you conserve/replenish (SP pots). You dont have to hit Bloody Crypt, Shadow Crypt, VON, Vale, etc. quite so many times to get to cap (XP boosts/tomes).

Mana pots are not a mere convenience. It means you can play the "already the most powerful 2 classes in the game" in a fashion that makes them infinitely more powerful. It proves that if they can make money off breaking the game, it will stay broken.


Are these technically power boosts? From a certain perspective, yes. Do I REALLY care if someone P2Ws their way through a quest, even if i am in it? No, not really. I am about 1000 times more concerned about the mob/trap/chest in front of me than what is in the backpack (or wallet) of the player beside me.

Id be more concerned about the players hitting your LFM. This game already has little to no learning curve. P2W contributes to the lack of a learning curve significantly.

[zwiebelring]

Zwiebelring insisted on needing epic / raid gear for casual/normal quests ... which I simply don't understand)
No, I meant I as potential store user may see the need in different things and if they are avaiable in the store I may buy them.

Still, for some achievements specific items are needed. Further I see no trend towards named items being offered in the store because it will ruin the business for Turbine.

I have the impression that people tend to despise even some consumables and blame those things being pay-to-win where it is just an option, but no significant advantage over others. Again: whenever the time comes you have(!) to use the store for access to something in the game and for that imagine the time back then when we had to have leveling seals. Imagine you got those only in the store. Then you had pay-to-win.

And since Turbine disintegrated this strange kind of game model I am very confident things like that won't happen to named items ever.

[Chai]

Really? Oh Noes! I is had to make the pays for something I njoys doing! Welcome to life, Chai.

And before you reply - Don't care. I'm fine with it. Would do it again. When it becomes more than I'm willing to pay for what I get out of it, I'll quietly step away. It's just a game.

Best of luck!

As I stated before, people redicule the slippery slope style arguments until their threshold is crossed. Your post literally states just what your threshold is, and what your action will be when it is crossed. By the tone of your post, we clearly see your threshold hasnt been crossed yet, heh.

Youre just drawing the line of how you define "enough is enough" in a different place than I do is all.

[varusso]

BLAM!!! Hook, line, and sinker, right there.

Turbine creates a TR system. What was stopping them from leaving the XP total required to cap a toon regardless of lives at 1.9M? Answer...NOTHING. Nothing at all. But wait....it gets better. They more than DOUBLED the XP required, and did so in a completely arbitrary fashion. Why? Because we said so that why. Then they waited a couple years while people complained about how much of a grind the TR game is just to create one solid toon.

During that time they provide XP pots you can BUY to lessen the grind, but when that isnt enough, they create XP tomes you can BUY as well to further lessen the grind.

1st life = 1.9m XP to cap and each additional life = 1.9m XP to cap + no XP tomes or pots in the store.

-vs-

1st life = 1.9 XP to cap, 2nd life = 3,139,250 to cap, 3rd and every life afterward = 4,378,500 XP to cap + purchasable XP pots and XP tomes in the store.

Roughly the same grind. Whats the difference. $$$$$$$

1. Increase amount of XP required for 3rd or higher life TR to cap.
2. Put purchasable XP pots and XP tomes into the store.
3. ???
4. Profit.

This was literally DESIGNED to be pay to win. They did it in such a fashion over a large enough period of time where people are THANKING them for it, heh. Conveniently no one seems to remember that the amount of XP needed to cap was jacked up to more than double the normal amount in a completely arbitrary fashion, because it was done long enough ago players just think its the standard. This is akin to ramping up prices on specific items in a department store 200% then putting them on sale at 50% off, but the coupon for 50% off is in a book you have to buy, heh.

This is tripe. When TRs were introduced, Turbine asked for feedback, and the concensus was that they SHOULD be harder to level in order to balance the power increase. It is absolutely NOT necessary to buy a single XP pot or learning tome in order to lvl a TR2+ toon to cap, provided you have enough content to play through (which of course is P2W in a sense). Especially now, with bravery bonus on top of everything else. Add in Xp shrines (both shrines and airships can be purchased with plat) and the XP-boosting game items like VoM, and you have a veritable gold mine of XP.

There is no "great conspiracy" to "force" players to buy things from the DDO store. There are incentives to get you to purchase the convenience items that help you do it quicker and skip some content you may not want to run, but you dont NEED them to do it.

Every aspect of a F2P model (which always includes P2P content) is technically P2W. Its inherent in its design vs a subscription-based game. Buying an adventure pack is P2W -- it gives you more content to level and loot through. It also gives you access to more favor -- both for TP and for getting favor thresholds (try getting SF pots with no packs). Buying a shared bank gives you the ability to move BTA gear from toon to toon. Buying anything at all uncaps your plat per toon and allows you to fully utilize the AH to earn more plat in-game. Even cosmetic junk like armor kits is P2W, cos it makes you "prettier" than the other guy who has to go out and hunt extensively for his matching set of gear. Without Vale, you have no GS. Are there even any F2P epics -- other than the ones just released? (I own it all so I dont remember).

Anything of actual REAL worth in the store (other than game mechanic stuff like adv packs and bank etc) has a counterpart in-game. You just have to work more for it. None of that stuff in the store is a MUST HAVE thing to "win" DDO. Its just a time-saver -- a convenience. And yes, that *IS* one of the facets of P2W. But as I have said many times before, that in no way makes it a BAD thing.

[BitkaCK2]

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.

1.) I pay money to Turbine.
2.) Turbine uses money to develop new content and buy hamster food to keep the servers running.
3.) I keep playing DDO.
4.) I win.

See? Very simple. Anything else is sauce for the goose.
bitkaCK2

[varusso]

Yeap, weve seen that happen in other games. What you dont mention here is that the degree of P2W has increased since the store was introduced to the game. If it continues to increase this game is heading down that path.
Of course it has increased. The idea is to make $$. Turbine introduced the F2P model to save the game rather than shut it down. So they keep adding more things to the store to entice sales. And yet the majority of the stuff in the DDO store is still fluff, and players eat it up. Sure, some content is designed with the idea of selling store junk (cough, events) but you dont need the stuff to participate.

What they are doing is allowing the majority of players - the newbies who joined over the past year or so, to get within a small fraction of power less than players with the literal best endgame gear item in each slot by paying for it, if they desire. This will affect different people differently depending on their thoughts of people being able to buy what others had to earn, but it affects the game in a huge way, as you outlined above.
There is no significant increase in power for newbies. I HOPE you arent talking about those utter junk wpns and armor they sell? Everything they can buy there (that is relevant), they can buy in-game. With enough patience and time, they can even unlock all of the content with favor farming for TP. Granted it wold take forever these days, but it could be done :D

Mana pots are not a mere convenience. It means you can play the "already the most powerful 2 classes in the game" in a fashion that makes them infinitely more powerful. It proves that if they can make money off breaking the game, it will stay broken.
SP pots *are* a convenience. You can learn to play the "right" way and not need them, or you can buy them and chug them like water. It really does NOT make a difference. Just because you or I are miserly/greedy and want to farm up gear to save the plat or cash, that does not invalidate their playstyle. So long as the heals or nukes or CCs come when they are needed, I really do not care how they got them. I prefer a nice controlled zerg, using my resources efficiently and not chugging a single pot. That guy prefers leaving max/emp on and drinking a pot every 30 seconds. He didnt "win" anything. We both complete, and we both get the relative rewards. His cost more. If he can maintain his expenditures *shrug* This is no different than farming up plat to buy SP pots in stacks on the AH.

And no, I am NOT going to get into yet another silly debate over whether or not SP pots are OP. Despite all the hand waving, I have YET to see a single player doing this mad-dash with endless supplies of DDO-store (or AH)-pots just blowing through content. And it is certainly no where near as rampant as the handwavers would have us believe. SP pots are fine, buying them in the store is fine. Anything currently listed in the store is fine, for that matter.

Id be more concerned about the players hitting your LFM. This game already has little to no learning curve. P2W contributes to the lack of a learning curve significantly.
I havent had any problems with folks in groups -- or rather not as a result of buying stuff from DDO store. I get a fair mix of idjits and heroes, with the balance swinging each way day to day. It has nothing to do with the store; some folks are born to play MMOs, some are not, most fall somewhere in between. Sometimes I wish there were an IQ test during game install, but NOT selling stuff in the store wont increase their brainpower.

And before you start in about how "bad" players would fall off without the store to lean on -- according to you, the store allows them to play at the level of true power players, just by buying the right stuff. Ergo, its not hurting the game at all, since sub-par players can be just effective as long as they are willing to open their wallets.

In reality though, most players do NOT just spend endless sums on the store. They buy somethings here and there, wait for sales and stock up, then use the resources when they feel the need -- or when they just want to blow through something quickly. If i see someone chug a pot (assuming I even bothered to look) I cant tell if it was one they just looted in a chest or if they bought it from the store. And I dont care.

[sebastianosmith]

As I stated before, people redicule the slippery slope style arguments until their threshold is crossed. Your post literally states just what your threshold is, and what your action will be when it is crossed. By the tone of your post, we clearly see your threshold hasnt been crossed yet, heh.

Youre just drawing the line of how you define "enough is enough" in a different place than I do is all.

My line of "enough is enough" does not include what Turbine sells in the store, or what other players think about that, or what characters get as reward, or any perceived "nerfs", or most anything else other than the cost/benefit ratio of my game enjoyment. If I could buy a Completionist Token from the store, I would - Just to see what a character would be like with such a feat. I don't have thousands of hours to devote to this game, nor really the inclination to do so. I just enjoy running about, completing quests, figuring out how things work and spending time with my friends and family while doing so. To me, that's worth a whole lot more than the money I've spent or will spend on this game. It reminds me of those happy, carefree times in my youth when I played P&P, ignorant of the realities of life, unburdened with responsibility and foolish enough to think myself wise. Why would I give that up over a few virtual items available in a store I can't even loiter about?

[Chai]

This is tripe. When TRs were introduced, Turbine asked for feedback, and the concensus was that they SHOULD be harder to level in order to balance the power increase. It is absolutely NOT necessary to buy a single XP pot or learning tome in order to lvl a TR2+ toon to cap, provided you have enough content to play through (which of course is P2W in a sense). Especially now, with bravery bonus on top of everything else. Add in Xp shrines (both shrines and airships can be purchased with plat) and the XP-boosting game items like VoM, and you have a veritable gold mine of XP.

Being necessary or not is irrelevant. The fact is that people pay to lessen a grind that was arbitrarily raised. If people WANTED this grind as you say they did, where were they in the unanimous plethora of threads which complain about grind between then and now? I see ALOT of threads asking for less grind, but none asking for more. People have shown they are willing to pay to attain less grind as well. This opens the door to design more content requiring insane amounts of grind, and then charge people grind relief, heh. Weve already shown as a gaming populace that we WILL pay for this.


There is no "great conspiracy" to "force" players to buy things from the DDO store. There are incentives to get you to purchase the convenience items that help you do it quicker and skip some content you may not want to run, but you dont NEED them to do it.

Again, being forced or not has no meaning whatsoever. The fact is they raised the amount of XP required, then provide purchasable items in the store to increase XP gain, meets the definition.


Every aspect of a F2P model (which always includes P2P content) is technically P2W. Its inherent in its design vs a subscription-based game. Buying an adventure pack is P2W -- it gives you more content to level and loot through. It also gives you access to more favor -- both for TP and for getting favor thresholds (try getting SF pots with no packs). Buying a shared bank gives you the ability to move BTA gear from toon to toon. Buying anything at all uncaps your plat per toon and allows you to fully utilize the AH to earn more plat in-game. Even cosmetic junk like armor kits is P2W, cos it makes you "prettier" than the other guy who has to go out and hunt extensively for his matching set of gear. Without Vale, you have no GS. Are there even any F2P epics -- other than the ones just released? (I own it all so I dont remember).

Yes exactly, and the more this increases in degree, the more attrition occurs. People ask for and support convenience when its given, only to realize later on at some point (different per individual) that it dumbed the game down to being so boring they no longer enjoy it. Read: All threads where people are complaining about having to PUG because theres no one left to group with who matches their skill / gear level. That attrition occurs from the top down, and its occurring at an increased rate.


Anything of actual REAL worth in the store (other than game mechanic stuff like adv packs and bank etc) has a counterpart in-game. You just have to work more for it. None of that stuff in the store is a MUST HAVE thing to "win" DDO. Its just a time-saver -- a convenience. And yes, that *IS* one of the facets of P2W. But as I have said many times before, that in no way makes it a BAD thing.

Again, being a MUST HAVE has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with being pay to win or not. It is obviously where your threshold is as far as what you would tolerate, but its not a defining factor in the term itself. Pay to win is where two people have equal circumstances and money becomes the deciding factor in who has advantage. No one needs to force them to buy anything. This has been the clear definition of P2W for 60-70 years now.

Now go ahead and tell us that someone who completed shroud twice for shards and paid for their ingredients doesnt have an advantage over someone who doesnt pay and therefore farms 20 shroud completions to make one item, simply because no one forced the person who paid to do so. :p

No Chai, the 54 days less grind time the person who forked over cash for mats is in no way advantageous to them whatsoever. /grin

And the P2W factor is increasing folks. Not decreasing. Over the next 18 months or so, many more peoples thresholds will be crossed and they will waffle and begin complaining about exactly what they tried to deny was happening in the first place. Ill be right there to ask them why they supported it the entire time up til now, popcorn in hand, explaining that this wasnt one event that caused all this, but a three plus year trickle of events that when done slowly enough, people dont even realise its happening, or increasing.

[varusso]

Being necessary or not is irrelevant. The fact is that people pay to lessen a grind that was arbitrarily raised. If people WANTED this grind as you say they did, where were they in the unanimous plethora of threads which complain about grind between then and now? I see ALOT of threads asking for less grind, but none asking for more. People have shown they are willing to pay to attain less grind as well. This opens the door to design more content requiring insane amounts of grind, and then charge people grind relief, heh. Weve already shown as a gaming populace that we WILL pay for this.
Ever heard the expression "Be careful what you wish for?" They got their effort vs reward ratio, then realized it wasnt all it was cracked up to be. Their opinions have since changed :D

Again, being forced or not has no meaning whatsoever. The fact is they raised the amount of XP required, then provide purchasable items in the store to increase XP gain, meets the definition.
It is ABSOLUTELY relevant. There are gobs of in-game ways to increase your XP earning. If you want an XP pot, you can get them from collectables. If you want a learning tome, you can farm TP. You are paying for convenience, nothing else. And yes, once again this *IS* still P2W, but I think by now we have established that EVERYTHING in the game falls under P2W in one form or another, since it is no longer a subscription-based game, right?

other stuff (more of the same)
Already addressed, no point repeating same points again.

Now go ahead and tell us that someone who completed shroud twice for shards and paid for their ingredients doesnt have an advantage over someone who doesnt pay and therefore farms 20 shroud completions to make one item, simply because no one forced the person who paid to do so. :p

No Chai, the 54 days less grind time the person who forked over cash for mats is in no way advantageous to them whatsoever. /grin

And the P2W factor is increasing folks. Not decreasing. Over the next 18 months or so, many more peoples thresholds will be crossed and they will waffle and begin complaining about exactly what they tried to deny was happening in the first place. Ill be right there to ask them why they supported it the entire time up til now, popcorn in hand, explaining that this wasnt one event that caused all this, but a three plus year trickle of events that when done slowly enough, people dont even realise its happening.

Never once have i said the P2W folks dont get an advantage -- i have said many times they DO -- an advantage of convenience and time investment. The player who buys his GS ings does not gain an advantage that the non-P2W cannot get. He just gets it faster. They can BOTH get their GS items; one farms, the other buys in-store (as opposed to the player who buys ings in-game after farming plat....) But the player who gets the ings in the store does not get anything the other guy cant get in-game. And honestly, it doesnt even take much effort now to get it IN game. I can typically create whatever GS item I want within 3-4 runs, combining my pulls and my trades. And I get the joy of more "god this noob in shroud today...." material. Cant buy THAt in the DDO store :D

[Chai]

What I am saying is you will staunchly defend this right up til the point where your line is crossed, as will we all, and thats when the waffle truck pulls up. Ill be sure to attend that party. It was hilarious when 75% of the people who told me to can it when I didnt like the fact that FvS werent given to VIP, were on the boards complaining right along side me when VIP werent given artificer either. To them, it was perfectly OK to sell us FvS because there was an immediate favor unlock, but it was not OK to sell us artificer because the favor unlock waited an update to arrive. When I pointed this out, hilarity ensued.

[Chai]

And I get the joy of more "god this noob in shroud today...." material. Cant buy THAt in the DDO store :D

Actually, less learning curve (if thats even possible) is already sold in the store, which is what creates all those "god this noob in shroud today...." moments, heh. :p

[varusso]

The only thing that makes forcing someone to buy something -vs- making it available for them to buy relevant at all, is that you define that as where YOU would draw the line. It has absolutely no bearing on the definition of P2W which is roughly 70 years old now.

What I am saying is you will staunchly defend this right up til the point where your line is crossed, and thats when the waffle truck pulls up. Ill be sure to attend that party. It was hilarious when 75% of the people who told me to can it when I didnt like the fact that FvS werent given to VIP, were on the boards complaining right along side me when VIP werent given artificer either. To them, it was perfectly OK to sell us FvS because there was an immediate favor unlock, but it was not OK to sell us artificer because the favor unlock waited an update to arrive. When I pointed this out, hilarity ensued.

I have said (repeatedly) that this *IS* P2W; the entire game is P2W. I really dont see how you can miss that. That is the model for DDO now. Without it, there would BE NO DDO. The more incentives they give folks to pay, the better -- so long as it is not a strongarm tactic to force players to pony up the cash --- which it is not, and shows no evidence of becoming so.

*ALL* MMOs have an insane amount of grind in them; the games simply dont function properly without it, long term, unless they have something incredibly cool (and renewable) going for them. DDO's unique advantage is that there are ways for players to reduce some of this grind by paying out some scratch IRL. So long as it does not become the only practical way of actually getting anything done in the game, its just fine. If the DDO store did not exist at all, my game would play exactly the same -- content purchases aside of course. Other than the fact that there would be no game...

As for VIPs having to buy races or classes? I agree -- that is horse ****; they should be included. VIP is the F2P equivalent of a subscription. They should get all of that whether or not it can be unlocked with favor. But thats an entirely different issue.

[Halock]

Chai conveniently leaves out in his conspiracy theory about them creating a grind, then forcing people to pay to lessen it, that they have implemented BB bonus, for free, combined with Elite OR hard streaks, for free.

These 2 things also stack.....for free, and greatly lessen the TR grind, or a 1st life grind

[mobrien316]

A slippery slope argument is one where a person says that A may be okay, but because it leads to B, which leads to C, which leads to D, which we all "know" is not okay, A should never be allowed to happen.

If someone says A is not okay by itself, that is not a slippery slope argument. If a "threshold" is crossed (i.e. - whatever is actually happening or about to happen is declared bad, game-breaking, DOOM, or whatever) that is not someone waffling on a slipperly slope argument. Someone could very reasonably (for example) not have an issue with selling +4 tomes in the DDO store, because you can also find them in-game, but might feel that selling +10 tomes in the stores is wrong. That would not be a slippery slope argument from a waffler.

[Hafeal]

In my mind, perhaps pay2win is another way of starting a pnp campaign with high level characters but never having played those characters up the leveling process. In DDO, you can, to an extent, buy items or features to do this. I have always preferred a smell the roses approach to DDO and enjoy the levelling process but I realize others only want to play end game and pass levels as quickly as possible.

That is fine, I get it, different strokes for different folks.

That being said, the DDO store has been, in my mind, on a slippery slope / pay2win course in another fashion. My fear was, and is, that as new content comes out, the new content will become harder and harder because it is built around the maximum you can be using Store resources, not the minimum, thus requiring you to buy from the Store to succeed, particularly if you are a casual player. Even though there MAY be options in game to bypass the Store, the reasonableness (or horrid drop rate of grinding) make it so that the only "real" option is to skip content, not play, or pay. :(

This can mean requiring you to TR, perhaps multiple times, or if you choose not to TR, to carry store bought items, like pots, and other various and sundry items to complete questing, especially at higher levels. Or perhaps, you just avoid content, like raids, because of the intimidation factor of not being geared out.

My original hope was that the store would focus on non-game affecting items. Cosmetic items - like armor, hair dyes, etc. While they have done some of that, the price points, imo, have created underwhelming revenue. Rather than revamp them though, DDO instead began walking the slope of putting more and more game affecting items in the Store - items players now take for granted but weren't there at the start but have been incrementally added: pots, +2, tomes, +3 tomes, elemental weapons, shroud ingredients etc. The idea of the slope is you do not notice how far you have gone until you are at the bottom.

In my mind, DDO is fun, and I really do not care about other players paying money to get to various game points that they enjoy. What I do care about is that DDO continues to make content built around certain assumptions of power gamers that in turn require casual gamers to use the Store. That slippery slope creep is there, imo. Power gamers do not have this problem - they have the time. Casual gamers do not.

[yawumpus]

It might be sarcastic as a description of your gameplay. But that does describe quite a lot of players.

I play for fun. If I reach a point where its 'work' rather than 'play' to try to get an item, I do without the item. I like have loot, of course. But its only relevant in the sense that it increases the difficulty setting of the quest. If I'm geared/skilled enough that hard is not interesting, I run elite. Or whatever.

So, sneer all you want. Just because gear accumulation is your main goal doesn't mean its everyone's.

While I will admit that there are plenty of players who are indifferent to the accumulation of gear (and will assume that they exist in greater numbers outside of fora), I don't see how that makes pay2win a superior system. Consider two cases:

Case A. Player indifferent to gear. Player does not buy win, player may buy content. Player happy.
Case B1. Player allows gearing toons to guide his play. Player buys win, player has less to play for. Player quits.
Case B2. Player allows gearing toons to guide his play. Player does not buy win, watches others zoom pass him. Player rage quits.
Case B3. Player allows gearing toons to guide his play. Marketing keeps pay2win urges under control. Player keeps buying content (needed for gearing, if nothing else). Player happy

In all the threads about "Abbot ate my greensteel" or "bank ate my huge bags" I don't recall anybody saying "yeah, that happened to me. Who cares?". This might just be simple decency, but how often does that happen in an MMO forum?

[Vormaerin]

if you want to know why microtransactions are a superior system, that's pretty easy. It allows far more people to play the game and it produces superior revenue. Lots of people will play a game occassionally and spend a little money on it that would never consider paying a subscription. And microtransactions allow people spend more money than just the sub does.

If you are asking about "pay to win" itself, you still have to provide a convincing definition of "winning" for DDO. There's no pvp of note. There's no way to get a real advantage over other players. How does having 20 extra hours a week to grind differ from spending $200 on grind reducers?

P2W whiners just think there is some innate value to time over money, but there isn't. They are both the same and both still a source of inequality. Its just that "Have no life 2 Win" is more awkward to say :P

Its still an "unfair advantage" either way. Only way it would be "fair" is if everyone got the same amount of time and guild membership.

Seriously, what difference is it to you whether I spend hours grinding work to buy my eSoS or I spend hours grinding in game to get the same result? I can't kill you with it either way.

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

I have a life outside of DDO. Kids, girlfriend, work. It takes up almost all of my time to keep that stuff going. I enjoy playing DDO. The DDO Store has made it easier for me to continue to play the game with restricted game time. I think of it as not "pay to win" but more as "pay to keep up with the kids and unemployed".

[varusso]

In my mind, perhaps pay2win is another way of starting a pnp campaign with high level characters but never having played those characters up the leveling process. In DDO, you can, to an extent, buy items or features to do this. I have always preferred a smell the roses approach to DDO and enjoy the levelling process but I realize others only want to play end game and pass levels as quickly as possible.

That is fine, I get it, different strokes for different folks.

That being said, the DDO store has been, in my mind, on a slippery slope / pay2win course in another fashion. My fear was, and is, that as new content comes out, the new content will become harder and harder because it is built around the maximum you can be using Store resources, not the minimum, thus requiring you to buy from the Store to succeed, particularly if you are a casual player. Even though there MAY be options in game to bypass the Store, the reasonableness (or horrid drop rate of grinding) make it so that the only "real" option is to skip content, not play, or pay. :(

This can mean requiring you to TR, perhaps multiple times, or if you choose not to TR, to carry store bought items, like pots, and other various and sundry items to complete questing, especially at higher levels. Or perhaps, you just avoid content, like raids, because of the intimidation factor of not being geared out.

My original hope was that the store would focus on non-game affecting items. Cosmetic items - like armor, hair dyes, etc. While they have done some of that, the price points, imo, have created underwhelming revenue. Rather than revamp them though, DDO instead began walking the slope of putting more and more game affecting items in the Store - items players now take for granted but weren't there at the start but have been incrementally added: pots, +2, tomes, +3 tomes, elemental weapons, shroud ingredients etc. The idea of the slope is you do not notice how far you have gone until you are at the bottom.

In my mind, DDO is fun, and I really do not care about other players paying money to get to various game points that they enjoy. What I do care about is that DDO continues to make content built around certain assumptions of power gamers that in turn require casual gamers to use the Store. That slippery slope creep is there, imo. Power gamers do not have this problem - they have the time. Casual gamers do not.

There is nothing about the game that "requires" you to have store-purchased items (other than adventure packs etc of course), and nothing in the stores history of development that indicates it is headed in that direction. Its that very "sky is falling" made-up nonsense that creates the whole stigma in the first place.

The game is as open to casual players as it ever was -- more so in fact, with the addition of casual difficulty settings on non-raid quests. Not to mention hirelings (when they work) and readily accessible combat-pets (gems from Cove, clickies that summon pets). According to some, the purchasable stuff in the store actually makes it MORE accessible to casuals, allowing them to fill the power gap a bit between themselves and the more hardcore gamers -- assuming they are willing to pay for it.

But nothing about this scenario in any way requires anyone to purchase anything other than the content itself, which is inherent in a F2P model. And no actions by Turbine thus far have indicated that will change. The newer quests ARE definitely harder than the older ones, in many cases, but that is due to in-game power creep, not store sales. And they are still playable on lower difficulty settings by casual players. If I can solo a quest on norm, surely to god a group of casual adventurers can take norm or casual together.

[testing1234]

you travel halfway around the world and end up in a mcdonalds.
ill let you guess what my point is with this :) has more bearing on the discussion then large number of posts in this tread in my opinion

would be nice if i could pay to be able to erase any posts in the forum i dislike sure would be convenient would make it lot easier to "win" this thread id like to call this pay2erase P2E

[decease]

you win the game when you can solo every epic raid alone without companion nor hireling.

[Hafeal]

There is nothing about the game that "requires" you to have store-purchased items ... According to some, the purchasable stuff in the store actually makes it MORE accessible to casuals, allowing them to fill the power gap a bit between themselves and the more hardcore gamers -- assuming they are willing to pay for it.

But nothing about this scenario in any way requires anyone to purchase anything other than the content itself, which is inherent in a F2P model. And no actions by Turbine thus far have indicated that will change. The newer quests ARE definitely harder than the older ones, in many cases, but that is due to in-game power creep, not store sales.

Thanks for validating everything I said.

Correct - you don't 'need' to - but, my oh my, the Store does just make it easier doesn't it? ;)

[Vormaerin]

Thanks for validating everything I said.

Correct - you don't 'need' to - but, my oh my, the Store does just make it easier doesn't it? ;)

Huh? How did he validate everything you said? At least, I read your post as suggesting that there was power creep in the content already that was a result of the Store.

His whole point was that there was no such thing. There are only a few things sold in the store that directly help with quest completion: pretty much all of them are potions of some sort, besides the anti beholder gizmos. Of those, the only thing that is a real power boost is the mana pots for casters; plus, everything except the beholder stoppers are sold for gold.

There's certainly no content that is designed to require you to buy stuff from the store at the present time.

[Hafeal]

There's certainly no content that is designed to require you to buy stuff from the store at the present time.

Stop being a Turbine fanboi. No one is attacking Turbine anyway.

Turbine wants to make money, bulah for them - I want them to get theirs too. As Chai pointed out, Turbine is using the store as a vehicle to encourage Store purchases; I would add especially for casual players. You are correct, 'required' is the WRONG word. And I did not use it.

Where does 'power creep' come from? It comes from more than just the game aging from new content with new gear. It also comes from finding ways to make players want to use the Store. This includes the way quests are designed and played. Power gamers and long time vets are less affected because of skill or just the sheer time they have (or have accumulated) to grind for the gear to make the content easier.

Think. The whole idea is that you can buy items from the store to finish questing now that wasn't possible 4 years ago in this game or which has been traditionally available in mmos. Normally you play until you figure it out, you know kinda like, well, a good pnp session. Now when you are stuck and don't want to waste time you buy a shrine, or an anvil, or a beholder ray absorber, or mana pots, or a rogue hireling, or an icy burst weapon ... and if you think quest designers do not take those factors into account with every pack since the Store opened, I have some land to sell you in a Louisiana swamp. :cool:

[NaturalHazard]

What? I don't get a supermodel when I win DDO??? :O O_O ... guess I need to find some other game :D



Yeah you do get a super model when you win DDO her name is pam and she has 5 sisters. Since you won and now she is less busy with helping you win ddo she has more free time for you and her to get better reaquainted.

:D.

[alexthegood]

"Pay to Win" ~ its a term that gets thrown around a fair bit on the forums I've noticed...

Its an interesting concept ~ if item X is available on the DDO Store for Y dollars Player Z WINS!

How do they win though?

Do they get a Car? a House? a Supermodel? a Unicorn err ok with the pets not best example but you see what I mean...

What does "winning" in DDO actually mean?

There is no ~ Devs joke on the Completionist Feat aside ~ definitive "You WIN DDO" moment...

Before anybody says "well if they could buy everything" ~ they already can...

You've seen it ~ LFMs with "Quest X Paying Y for Z Dont join if you need Z" or at the start of a run someone says "I'll buy Z" or something pops in a chest and somebody asks "Is that for roll?" there is a delay and it gets passed to another player who obviously bought it (OK if its between guildies that is different ~ thats a given running in a group with a high proportion of same guilded players ~ if its non guilded players however)...

So we have our hypothetical player who has bought everything they want ~ do they win?

Umm how about no?

You see the thing with an MMO is that while it has a high population that population is based on a lot of churn at the low end and a relatively small relatively stable population at the high end...

Reputation matters...

You can buy all the gear you want but if you're a tool you're still a tool in eMaralith weilding an eSoS you'd have to be crazy to think otherwise...

In fact the players who have aggressively bought their gear are the ones most blacklisted ~ because they just cant play well...

The only reason I could see for people taking a Play To Win approach in DDO would be to try and break into the high end raiding/epic scene (I assume the acceptance into that would be the Win for them) but these are the people most vigoriously rejected...

Conclusion ~ :D Myth : Busted:)...
love that end Part!

[Terebinthia]

I don't really care what's in the store as long as it doesn't hurt the LFM scene. BTC raid loot isn't a good idea, or Shards of Power, and I'm a bit on the fence about +3 tomes TBH, since that's one reason people were grinding the older raids (didn't stop me buying them for my casting stats, though, heh ;) ).

As long I can't buy, oh, an Omniescence in the DDO store, or those PK wraps from Hound, or a Torc, we're probably OK. And if people want to drink SP store pots like water, that's up to them - provided that pressure isn't put on other blue bars who don't follow that practice to do the same.

[Postumus]

and if you think quest designers do not take those factors into account with every pack since the Store opened, I have some land to sell you in a Louisiana swamp. :cool:

That's cool... as long as it isn't overrun by those swamp people...

[chrichton]

...and?

For many, they would not be able to play melees without HP pots, haste pots, rage pots, resist pots, remove curse pots, remove poison pots, remove disease pots, clickies for GH, scrolls for healing/raising......

Some of it can be bought/farmed in the game, some can be bought in the store. Same goes for SP pots. If the player "must" chug pots, and they want to buy them from the store rather than farm/buy them from the AH -- so what? So long as they keep themselves supplied and dont play that toon in a group when they are NOT supplied, how is that fundamentally different from grinding out the items that help better manage SP? If they would rather buy some pots than spend their time grinding, let them. As long as they dont run out in the middle of a run with your toon (and if they do they will likely just pop open the store and buy more), it doesnt matter in the slightest.

Just means they helped pay for more game development in the long run.
Someone made the claim that store-bought items are all optional. I suggested they were not all optional.

Your points may be valid, but you side-stepped my point.

[varusso]

Someone made the claim that store-bought items are all optional. I suggested they were not all optional.

Your points may be valid, but you side-stepped my point.

No i didnt. You said that for some, SP pots are not optional; I said the same is true of other classes with other potions and effects -- all of which (including Sp pots) have in-game equivalents. The only real differences are methods of payment (which both come down to time invested in one form or another, in the end) and convenience. If you could open an AH or guild vendor at-will (and for free) and get delivery in-quest, I daresay many players would spot-purchase their goods from there as well.

Whoops, drank my last haste pot -- pulling up the guild vendor real quick. Dang, my quiver is empty -- pulling up the House D vendor. Hmm I may need some extra SP for this fight, and i forgot my pots in the bank -- lets see if the Ah has any reasonably priced.

^^Convenience -- only offered in the DDO store, which is where iI daresay they make a chunk of their micro-purchase profits -- as it is intended..

[Alavatar]

I have to admit that I would pay for Past Lives. Based on the cost of a True Heart of Wood, and the revenue of Experience Elixirs while leveling a TR, I would place the value of a Past Life at around ~$25. I would gladly pay that for each Past Life.

[lhidda]

I have to admit that I would pay for Past Lives. Based on the cost of a True Heart of Wood, and the revenue of Experience Elixirs while leveling a TR, I would place the value of a Past Life at around ~$25. I would gladly pay that for each Past Life.

If that comes, I finally quit ddo.

[Raithe]

It also comes from finding ways to make players want to use the Store. This includes the way quests are designed and played.

Here we go, some sense finally spoken in this thread.

I'm laughing at all the people who use Pay-2-Win in the context of comparing character gear and ability between players. Especially when they go on to make some sort of statement that DDO is "PvE" and has no competitive aspects to it. Winning in this particular phrase is not directly related to beating other players or game mechanics in general at all.

Pay-2-Win is a marketing strategy that opposes subscription-based models. The idea is to make it convenient for people who would pay to achieve what they want out of the game to actually do so (a shortening of Pay-2-Get-What-You-Want). The Free-2-Play part of it is for those who can stomache playing with the first group, but would only do so if the cost was extremely minimal.

It generally works as long as the development company is careful. If they make it so the Free-2-Play no longer care to, they have gone too far and the game can go downhill very fast.

Hafeal's statement above is the only real concern that Turbine and F2P players should be looking at (the rest of you are the stooges that are paying our way, please ignore this post). The issue is that power creep requires power creep, and to keep the payers paying requires ramping up damage and other factors in quests on a continual basis. They have been doing this, and it angers the F2P people because of the technical difficulties it brings. They have also been doing it in rather stupid ways that are not really countering power creep, but rather amplifying issues with lag, griefing, and other fully undesirable aspects of their game (i.e. bladestorm damage increases).

Much of the game is already mostly unplayable by normal game players. While generally these quests (for instance, most of Epic) are completable by a typical normal group, they are so monotonous and full of potential playing issues that they have become very unpopular except in private guild groups of longtime players. That is fine, as long as there are alternatives in gameplay. It really boils down to having enough content to appeal to everyone while keeping the money flowing. That has always been their problem. I think they may have found a good strategy in releasing challenge packs, however, as the gameplay of those seems to be much more solid and long-lasting than their previous offerings.

[Kadran]

I dislike the term pay to win, but i'm glad for the ddo store and microtransactions.

I play the game to be good at it. To have good loot, to have good relationships both in guild nd in the pugging scene, to hve fun, and to pass some time.

However, it's a vicious circle in the standard mmo model. I don't have time to play as much as jobless folks that farm for hours straight while i'm at work. I don't have the appropriate gear as I haven't put in 46 hours of game play this week. Because I don't have the gear, i'm declined from pugs and cannot get into a good guild easily.

Now look at the jobless guy (I used to be one.) Wake up, play ddo. Break for brunch. Play ddo. Break for dinner. Play ddo. Nap (I didn't consider it sleeping.) Play ddo. Repeat.

I'm glad there is a way to close the gap for those of us who can't play for 40 hours a week, but still want to be semi competitive. I've bought mana pots, and i'm not ashamed or embarrassed to say so. I then sell the majors I get in game for plat or trade them for items I want. I only use pots rarely and sparingly anyway. 1 stack of 100 has seen me through 4 lives and I still have 20ish left over.

Were I able to buy shards/seals/etc I probably would, depending on howw elusive it has been to me.

[Vormaerin]

Think. The whole idea is that you can buy items from the store to finish questing now that wasn't possible 4 years ago in this game or which has been traditionally available in mmos. Normally you play until you figure it out, you know kinda like, well, a good pnp session. Now when you are stuck and don't want to waste time you buy a shrine, or an anvil, or a beholder ray absorber, or mana pots, or a rogue hireling, or an icy burst weapon ... and if you think quest designers do not take those factors into account with every pack since the Store opened, I have some land to sell you in a Louisiana swamp. :cool:

The fact that they are selling things people will buy is not the same thing as saying they are designing to content to boost sales.

Its one thing to say "Hmm, lots of players have trouble with beholders, lets sell something to help them out." Its entirely another to say "gosh, we want to move anti beholder gizmos. Lets add more beholders to the game."

I am quite sure they are doing the first thing. I seriously doubt they are doing the second. There's just no evidence for it in the game.

[sebastianosmith]

Hafeal's statement above is the only real concern that Turbine and F2P players should be looking at (the rest of you are the stooges that are paying our way, please ignore this post).

Nah. I think I'll just ignore you.

http://s2.hubimg.com/u/2174761_f248.jpg

Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck.

[varusso]

Here we go, some sense finally spoken in this thread.

I'm laughing at all the people who use Pay-2-Win in the context of comparing character gear and ability between players. Especially when they go on to make some sort of statement that DDO is "PvE" and has no competitive aspects to it. Winning in this particular phrase is not directly related to beating other players or game mechanics in general at all.

Pay-2-Win is a marketing strategy that opposes subscription-based models. The idea is to make it convenient for people who would pay to achieve what they want out of the game to actually do so (a shortening of Pay-2-Get-What-You-Want). The Free-2-Play part of it is for those who can stomache playing with the first group, but would only do so if the cost was extremely minimal.

It generally works as long as the development company is careful. If they make it so the Free-2-Play no longer care to, they have gone too far and the game can go downhill very fast.

Hafeal's statement above is the only real concern that Turbine and F2P players should be looking at (the rest of you are the stooges that are paying our way, please ignore this post). The issue is that power creep requires power creep, and to keep the payers paying requires ramping up damage and other factors in quests on a continual basis. They have been doing this, and it angers the F2P people because of the technical difficulties it brings. They have also been doing it in rather stupid ways that are not really countering power creep, but rather amplifying issues with lag, griefing, and other fully undesirable aspects of their game (i.e. bladestorm damage increases).

Much of the game is already mostly unplayable by normal game players. While generally these quests (for instance, most of Epic) are completable by a typical normal group, they are so monotonous and full of potential playing issues that they have become very unpopular except in private guild groups of longtime players. That is fine, as long as there are alternatives in gameplay. It really boils down to having enough content to appeal to everyone while keeping the money flowing. That has always been their problem. I think they may have found a good strategy in releasing challenge packs, however, as the gameplay of those seems to be much more solid and long-lasting than their previous offerings.

I am neither a top-tier nor bottom-tier player. Once upon a time, I was one of the upper-elite types and could powergame with the best of them; those days are long over with, and now I fit comfortably within the "better than average" range, with a few spikes of awesome :D

I have NEVER ONCE felt the need to purchase in-store power-ups. No content, up to and including epics has EVER made me feel even the slightest, remotest inkling of a desire to purchase any store items to help me complete. I have never even so much as purchased a rez cake. There is absolutely ZERO content in DDO that is "designed" to make players need store goodies to be able to complete it. There are PLENTY of in-game goodies out there to do the job -- whatever the job may be. There ARE some store items that are designed to make it easier/quicker to accomplish your goals, and they appeal to casual gamers who dont want/dont have the time to spend farming up the stuff in-game, and to powergamers who just want to get it done faster. The content does not push the players to do this; their own impatience or lack of real world time does so.

The ONLY real exception to this is events. They are obviously designed to get players to buy junk in the store. But you dont actually need to do so -- all of it that you "need" can be farmed in the event itself.

No matter how much you and others try to conspiracy-theory us into a corner, it wont change the actual facts. DDO is 100% playable without buying any of the Tchotchkes available in the DDO store. The only thing you will ever "have to" buy is the content itself (adventure packs, classes, races, expansions, etc.) -- and that only if you dont want to farm the favor or TP for it. Turbine makes money off all the clap-trap because players are LAZY or under time restraints IRL, not because Turbine has designed the game to REQUIRE it.

[maddmatt70]

I have mixed feelings toward the tome of learning. I feel that it has cheapened in the past what I did to an extent. The rules regarding xp has been set in stone for so long and I played by those rules for many many hours and yet now the rules have been changed and the process of getting xp made much easier. It feels like if a player just waits long enough they capitilize on a rule change and thus benefitting greatly timewise.

Why can not they make these changes retroactive? I mean seriously I earned X amount of xp and today I only need X-20% or so to cap my characters so should not I get an extra 20% bonus on all the xp I previously earned. Just take my level 12 fighter 6 barbarian 2 rogue with one past life which was was a little over 3 mil xp and the original life which was 1.9 so I think that I should get 20% * 6 million = 1.2 milllion xp banked that if I decided to true reincarnate again I get a 1.2 million xp headstart. Where is my 20% xp bonus on all the xp I did before now (not even counting that 50% first time bonus for the tome of learning).

[Alavatar]

I have mixed feelings toward the tome of learning. I feel that it has cheapened in the past what I did to an extent. The rules regarding xp has been set in stone for so long and I played by those rules for many many hours and yet now the rules have been changed and the process of getting xp made much easier. It feels like if a player just waits long enough they capitilize on a rule change and thus benefitting greatly timewise.

O.o

Set in stone? XP has been tweaked since day 1 of launch. Stormcleave used to be a super high XP per minute quest back in the day. Waterworks used to provide much more XP as well. And Gianthold. Did you feel slighted when they adjusted those down? Did it cheapen the XP you had attained since you took advantage of the high XP output of those quests and others couldn't after the adjustment?

Necro I and II used to also be **** for XP. Did adjusting those up affect you negatively as well?

Sorry, Matt ... some of the things I see you post just boggle my mind. Especially since I know you have been around since Head Start.

[LOOON375]

DDO is 100% playable without buying any of the Tchotchkes available in the DDO store.
Yep. As has been said a gazillion times on this forum, nobody is forcing anyone to do anything they don't want, or to buy anything they don't want.

this all falls onto what 'this' person thinks 'that' person is doing or buying.

A couple of posts above mine is stating that he thinks the learning tomes are ruining (cheapening) the game for him. The tomes aren't 'auto loaded' into your toons. You have to choose to use it and then actually click on it.

If you don't want to use something in this game, just don't use it. As has been said, all the devices are already in place.

I for one, appreciate the fact that I don't have to run a certain quest 20 times to TR a toon. Now I only have to run it, say 10 times, to get the XP I want out of it.

This difference between running a quest 10 vs 20 times only means you spent a little less time. Doing it more or less times doesn't make you a better or worse player. If I TR'd multiple toons to multiple past lives, I would be burnt the heck out and probably would quit the game.

All the stuff in the store and the new xp model is still a choice as far as using it. YOU don't have to use any of it. I know I don't need to, and I know that I won't.

Im not playing this game to make myself suffer. Knocking off some of the xp just takes some of the grind out of it. You still have to earn it.

[Vormaerin]

Turbine makes money off all the clap-trap because players are LAZY or under time restraints IRL, not because Turbine has designed the game to REQUIRE it.

I can only assume the people making the argument that content is being ramped up to fuel store sales have never played an actual "pay to win" game. You quite literally reach a point where the grind to do things without the power ups is impossible.

If DDO is trying to push the store through difficulty, they are remarkably incompetent about it. They keep cutting down on grinds with things like the 3rd time list, the desert epic bits trader, and so on. If they were really in the pay to win method, you'd buy those things.

This game is easier than its ever been. They keep adding more and more convenience things to actual game. You guys have missed it completely. They are pushing the store by making the game easier. The people who buy most of the gewgaws in the store are casual players. They make the content more accessible to players who would otherwise just quit and then let them buy conveniences and mistake fixers.

If they were aiming at ramping up difficulty to boost sales, you wouldn't see the top end players begging for some challenging content. You wouldn't see everything getting reduced in difficulty like the Overlord fight.

[maddmatt70]

O.o

Set in stone? XP has been tweaked since day 1 of launch. Stormcleave used to be a super high XP per minute quest back in the day. Waterworks used to provide much more XP as well. And Gianthold. Did you feel slighted when they adjusted those down? Did it cheapen the XP you had attained since you took advantage of the high XP output of those quests and others couldn't after the adjustment?

Necro I and II used to also be **** for XP. Did adjusting those up affect you negatively as well?

Sorry, Matt ... some of the things I see you post just boggle my mind. Especially since I know you have been around since Head Start.

Yes those were minor changes really. The changes to gianthold for e.g. whereas this is a huge change to the whole system. Sometimes posting the truth is well the truth. Why do the players who have this whole time loyally been playing not benefit from the time when they were loyally pumping money into the system? Why do the players of today benefit disporpotionately more compared to the players of yesterday? It is all time based if I spend more time xping now the system is advantageous vs. when if I spent more time in the past. The system should be fair instead of unfair.

[varusso]

Yes, tomes make it easier. No, no one deserves any kind of refund, bonus, or remuneration due to their release. That kind of nonsense keeps a game in a stagnant cycle, with devs afraid to introduce anything new for fear some segment of the population will demand their "investment" prior to the new content be somehow compensated.

The XP curve is fine; recent in-game changes make it alot easier to handle (BB, higher first-time bonuses, etc). And the implementation (unlocking higher dif with a multi-life toon) even gives more incentive to TR. Things like XP pots (which you can get for FREE from chests or collectibles in-game) and tomes only make it easier; they are NOT a necessity. But they DO allow players who are working on completionist or casual players who simply dont have the time, to not fall so far behind their buddies who are working on 1st and 2nd life toons.

And frankly, its a smart move. Turbine is selling something that is not NEEDED but is highly DESIRED. And I severely doubt they set the XP levels for TRs over 2 years ago with the long-term plan of adding tomes NOW to rake in the cash. Especially not while adding all the in-game stuff to ameliorate the grind *BEFORE* adding the tomes -- which would, in effect LESSEN the value of the tomes before they started selling them.

[maddmatt70]

Yes, tomes make it easier. No, no one deserves any kind of refund, bonus, or remuneration due to their release. That kind of nonsense keeps a game in a stagnant cycle, with devs afraid to introduce anything new for fear some segment of the population will demand their "investment" prior to the new content be somehow compensated.

The XP curve is fine; recent in-game changes make it alot easier to handle (BB, higher first-time bonuses, etc). And the implementation (unlocking higher dif with a multi-life toon) even gives more incentive to TR. Things like XP pots (which you can get for FREE from chests or collectibles in-game) and tomes only make it easier; they are NOT a necessity. But they DO allow players who are working on completionist or casual players who simply dont have the time, to not fall so far behind their buddies who are working on 1st and 2nd life toons.

And frankly, its a smart move. Turbine is selling something that is not NEEDED but is highly DESIRED. And I severely doubt they set the XP levels for TRs over 2 years ago with the long-term plan of adding tomes NOW to rake in the cash. Especially not while adding all the in-game stuff to ameliorate the grind *BEFORE* adding the tomes -- which would, in effect LESSEN the value of the tomes before they started selling them.

Turbine might soon upgrade the xp required to true reincarnate such would not surprise me at all. Say now it becomes we need 5 million to double true reincarnate. What then? You like jumping around a wheel like a rat? I want consistantcy with the rule set. This is a core rule that Turbine messed with. What a bunch of folly that is. Make a core rule set and stick with it or make a new game I say.

Turbine lets hear your intent... What is your intent with the tome? what is it really?

[Vormaerin]

I thought it was rather obvious given the restrictions on it. The goal of just about everything introduced in Update 13 or the pre order kits was to make it easier for players to reach high level so they can get involved in the new FR content.

The tome has no effect on lvl 21+ "special epic exp". Its useful if TRing, of course, but its purpose is to get players to the FR zone, since they expect the FR to be a big selling point.

[Mad_ScientistsNH]

Honestly, I've played Pay-To-Win games, and DDO really isn't one of them. I guess there are a few things that could be abused to do so if you want to burn absurd amounts of money on them, but no amount of money is going to get you that Epic Utility Vest or other such useful items.

As for leveling faster, that's not really pay to win because these people don't experience leveling any differently apart from it going by more quickly. If anything, getting more points at character creation is pay to win, but you can earn that in game pretty easily.

[varusso]

Turbine might soon upgrade the xp required to true reincarnate such would not surprise me at all. Say now it becomes we need 5 million to double true reincarnate. What then? You like jumping around a wheel like a rat? I want consistantcy with the rule set. This is a core rule that Turbine messed with. What a bunch of folly that is. Make a core rule set and stick with it or make a new game I say.

Turbine lets hear your intent... What is your intent with the tome? what is it really?

OK we can play this game. They might also drop the XP needed to TR by 1/2. They might also require we gather 23 pink rabbits to feed the tree instead of a heart of wood. They might also increase the number of tokens to purchase the heart to 10000. I find them all about as likely as them suddenly doubling the TR XP just to try and force store items down our throats.

There is no precedence for this kind of silly assertion. Trying to scare players into backing you is a very bad foundation to try and build your case upon.

Such a move would only serve to anger players, and would be a blatant attempt to strongarm players into buying their stuff. Bad business move.

Now epic levels? (which are NOT required to TR) I expect those to be as time-consuming to get to 25 as it was to get to 20 on at least a 2nd life toon, probably more. but the tomes only work on 1-20.

[maddmatt70]

I thought it was rather obvious given the restrictions on it. The goal of just about everything introduced in Update 13 or the pre order kits was to make it easier for players to reach high level so they can get involved in the new FR content.

The tome has no effect on lvl 21+ "special epic exp". Its useful if TRing, of course, but its purpose is to get players to the FR zone, since they expect the FR to be a big selling point.

Nonesense, Turbine chose to not put in under 20 content when they very well could have and probably should have. In the future they probably will put in under 20 content in FR. Regardless, there is 0 evidence that there needs to be bonus xp to get people to level 20 to play FR or that it will work.

Really infuriates me that they changed their core rule set. Lets be honest they should put out a DDO 2.0 just like D&D puts out a version 3.5 or 4.0 Turbine should adhere to the same standards. XP per level is about as core rule as there is. What kind of game are you making Turbine? Double standards...

[Vormaerin]

Really infuriates me that they changed their core rule set. Lets be honest they should put out a DDO 2.0 just like D&D puts out a version 3.5 or 4.0 Turbine should adhere to the same standards. XP per level is about as core rule as there is. What kind of game are you making Turbine? Double standards...

I take it you don't play other MMOs? Because that's what they do as the level cap increases...they grease the slope behind. The tomes are far less of an impact on leveling than the way LotRO exp was revamped after they added another 25 lvls to the cap. I don't play WoW, but I understand that they reduced required xp to level by like 20% after one of the expansions a few years back. And I think they've done some other changes since then.

[Drekisen]

I've leveled all classes to level 20......some on multiple characters......I'm not a completionist tho....even tho I am in a weird sort of way.

Really I like the changes DDO are making...a lot of them anyways.......it's not just the newer players that are capitalizing on these changes......the old players do as well......and we have a ton more experience in the game so I would venture to say we are actually getting way more out of it.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

"Pay to Win" ~ its a term that gets thrown around a fair bit on the forums I've noticed...

Its an interesting concept ~ if item X is available on the DDO Store for Y dollars Player Z WINS!

How do they win though?

Do they get a Car? a House? a Supermodel? a Unicorn err ok with the pets not best example but you see what I mean...

What does "winning" in DDO actually mean?

There is no ~ Devs joke on the Completionist Feat aside ~ definitive "You WIN DDO" moment...

Before anybody says "well if they could buy everything" ~ they already can...

You've seen it ~ LFMs with "Quest X Paying Y for Z Dont join if you need Z" or at the start of a run someone says "I'll buy Z" or something pops in a chest and somebody asks "Is that for roll?" there is a delay and it gets passed to another player who obviously bought it (OK if its between guildies that is different ~ thats a given running in a group with a high proportion of same guilded players ~ if its non guilded players however)...

So we have our hypothetical player who has bought everything they want ~ do they win?

Umm how about no?

You see the thing with an MMO is that while it has a high population that population is based on a lot of churn at the low end and a relatively small relatively stable population at the high end...

Reputation matters...

You can buy all the gear you want but if you're a tool you're still a tool in eMaralith weilding an eSoS you'd have to be crazy to think otherwise...

In fact the players who have aggressively bought their gear are the ones most blacklisted ~ because they just cant play well...

The only reason I could see for people taking a Play To Win approach in DDO would be to try and break into the high end raiding/epic scene (I assume the acceptance into that would be the Win for them) but these are the people most vigoriously rejected...

Conclusion ~ Myth : Busted...

Yeah, I'd agree against Pay to Win mattering in either sense. The literal, in-game buying loot-that-while-everyone-agrees-your-loot-is-your-loot-should-still-be-up-for-roll, and of course the DDO store kind. I've actually had someone (a real gamer, turned me on to rift, which i bought since it was half price, and haven't really played) say that DDO is Pay to Win because of the store, the evil of micro transactions, etc.

I'd say, if you want to just mindless pump scads of cash into the game, all you're doing is making it easier for anyone with you in any particular quest, and making the time spent before you have Moar Stuff lower. If you then TR a bunch, and just throw money at pots/xp boosts/slayer stuff, etc. then ditto. Less time before you get everything you can. And at some point, you'll get bored and move on.

But that's the Power Gamer style in a nutshell. When yer young and poor, but have nothin but time, you just grind liike a mofo, 8 hrs a day, more on days off/sleep-dep days. There's more and more people gaming, so inevitable that people with kids and responsiblities get into it (or the gamers grow up, but don't stop gamin!), who want to get to that ultimate point, but no longer have the time it requires. Enter the Age of Micro, and normal people can have stuff too:) *


*I am in no way claiming to be any sort of normal person:)

[Hafeal]

Pay-2-Win is a marketing strategy that opposes subscription-based models.

Good points. As an aside, your quote above is a great catch - and one which goes directly to the outcry many ViPs have been complaining about the forums. While DDO loves the sub money, their bread and butter is now in the Store. If you are ViP and use the Store, wonderful. Otherwise, the content and gameplay have all emphasized marketing first and foremost to f2p and premium players.



The fact that they are selling things people will buy is not the same thing as saying they are designing to content to boost sales.

Its one thing to say "Hmm, lots of players have trouble with beholders, lets sell something to help them out." Its entirely another to say "gosh, we want to move anti beholder gizmos. Lets add more beholders to the game."

I am quite sure they are doing the first thing. I seriously doubt they are doing the second. There's just no evidence for it in the game.

Uh, ok. Now that swampland I mentioned earlier will make you rich. And I have it for you at such a great price. ;)



If DDO is trying to push the store through difficulty, they are remarkably incompetent about it.

Well, there would be a number of people who would agree with that exact characterization.


They keep cutting down on grinds with things like the 3rd time list, the desert epic bits trader, and so on. If they were really in the pay to win method, you'd buy those things.

*shrug* not necessarily. New content and more diverse content has dictated they revamp places like GH in order to get people back there. When GH was end game, yes, they needed a higher grind. Now, many players skip it altogether. Reducing grind like this or IQ still requires grind but it also encourages players to use the content (i.e., buy it).



This game is easier than its ever been. They keep adding more and more convenience things to actual game. You guys have missed it completely. They are pushing the store by making the game easier. The people who buy most of the gewgaws in the store are casual players. They make the content more accessible to players who would otherwise just quit and then let them buy conveniences and mistake fixers.

The game is easier - for you. It may or may not be for others. Yes, the store makes the game easier - exactly what many in this thread have been saying. And while it makes the game easier for new players, it also makes it easier for vets too - if you choose to use it.


If they were aiming at ramping up difficulty to boost sales, you wouldn't see the top end players begging for some challenging content. You wouldn't see everything getting reduced in difficulty like the Overlord fight.

I do not see many begging for 'challenging' content other than a few vocal forum posters. This game has plenty of challenege if you want to go find it. I find one constant in DDO - there are those who say they want challenege and then those who actually run challenging content. Funny thing, it has been my expereince the latter is much smaller group than the former.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Why can not they make these changes retroactive? I mean seriously I earned X amount of xp and today I only need X-20% or so to cap my characters so should not I get an extra 20% bonus on all the xp I previously earned. Just take my level 12 fighter 6 barbarian 2 rogue with one past life which was was a little over 3 mil xp and the original life which was 1.9 so I think that I should get 20% * 6 million = 1.2 milllion xp banked that if I decided to true reincarnate again I get a 1.2 million xp headstart. Where is my 20% xp bonus on all the xp I did before now (not even counting that 50% first time bonus for the tome of learning).

I made $4000 in 1980. I think someone should give me the extra $6400 to make up for the fact that $4000 1980 dollars would be worth $10400 today.

Why isn't anyone doing this for us, Norg? Why isn't Turbine and our government doing this for us? Is it because they hate freedom?

[Vormaerin]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]The game is easier - for you. It may or may not be for others. Yes, the store makes the game easier - exactly what many in this thread have been saying. And while it makes the game easier for new players, it also makes it easier for vets too - if you choose to use it.


No one is denying you can make the game easier with the store. But that's not what you proposed. You claimed that they have deliberately made the game harder so that you have to buy from the store to maintain the level of "ease" that we had in the past. At least, that is what I understood you to be asserting. If I misunderstood, then I apologize.

But if I did not misunderstand, than you need to do something beside provide silly taunts to support your argument. In what way is the game harder than it was in the past? What challenges do you see in the game that wouldn't be there without the store?

We now have casual difficulty, we have hirelings, we have dungeon scaling, we have no permanent status debuffs, we have the new 3rd time loot rule, we have bravery streak xp, we have nerfed epics, we have ship buffs, and we have much better loot in many of the new quests.

On one hand you claim they are making the game harder, then you turn around and claim they have to add incentives to run the old (ie easier according to you) content because people skip it. That makes little sense.

[mobrien316]

There is no pay to win in DDO, simply because no one can win. Or, alternatively, everyone can win if they have fun while playing.


What some people pay for is time and convenience. Some people have unlimited free time to play, and they enjoy grinding every little thing in the game. Good for them - if that's how they enjoy the game, they win. Some people have very limited free time and sufficient disposable income to buy some things rather than grind for them. If they enjoy playing that way, good for them. They win, too.


If people could forget about this obsession they have with other people's loot, much of this drama would disappear. If there is a guy who is not in your group, not on your server, that you have never quested with, never chatted with, and never met, how could it possibly affect you if he bought something in the store that you ran quests for until you found one? Even if he is in your group, standing right next to you, how could the method by which he acquired his gear possibly affect you in any way, shape, or form?

[LOOON375]

If people could forget about this obsession they have with other people's lootAnd that is the root of this issue. IMHO

On both of my Wizzards, I have eaten +3 intel tomes. Can anyone reading this tell if I spent countless hours grinding for them, or can you tell if I bought them from the store?

No you can't. And because you can't, why does it matter?!?!?! Why? Because it don't matter.

But someone MIGHT be afraid that me or anyone else for that matter might have bought something they didn't buy. Therefore they feel they have been cheated.

If you don't want to buy, don't buy. But some think that what someone else may or may not do MIGHT ruin their game.

If others buy stuff from the store, it doesn't affect YOU one bit.

I do occasionally buy gold seal hirelings off of the store. When I did, did it cause your game to crash? "I felt a disturbance in the force!" hahaha

[HungarianRhapsody]

If others buy stuff from the store, it doesn't affect YOU one bit.

What you buy in the store doesn't have a large effect on other players (because there aren't all that many things worth buying in the store), but it does have an effect.

Every little bit of increased power that players accumulate adds up. Some of that power comes from the store. Turbine has had to scale up several raids in an effort to make them "challenging" to high level players. Some of that increase in "challenge" has come because of extra power that players have bought from the store.

Store purchases haven't been a majority of the power creep that DDO has experienced over its lifetime, but they have contributed. If other buy from the store, it does effect you one bit. Not a large bit, but it is at least a small bit.

[varusso]

What you buy in the store doesn't have a large effect on other players (because there aren't all that many things worth buying in the store), but it does have an effect.

Every little bit of increased power that players accumulate adds up. Some of that power comes from the store. Turbine has had to scale up several raids in an effort to make them "challenging" to high level players. Some of that increase in "challenge" has come because of extra power that players have bought from the store.

Store purchases haven't been a majority of the power creep that DDO has experienced over its lifetime, but they have contributed. If other buy from the store, it does effect you one bit. Not a large bit, but it is at least a small bit.

And if a fly farts in the sewer, the entire city smells worse than before, rgiht?

Sorry but no. The increase in challenge in new content (and revamping of old) is due to player power creep due to players gaining power IN GAME, not in the store. When guilds/friends work together, they can quickly help one another gear up specific toons, making it easier and faster to farm raids and epics for the gear they want. This in turn feeds power right back into the system, making those same players even more powerful. Add in the fact that we have had a static level cap for years, with players endlessly TRing and running back through that same content, each time having more chances at pulling the gear they want, all the while gaining even more power just from their past lives and the warehouses of gear stowed on mules. And this is happening all over each server. And the newer players get towed along right with them, getting their gear from auto-completions with the vets.

The wiki and compendium have all the info you need about how to easy-mode any quest within a week of its introduction to the game. Within a month of introducing a new race or class, every conceivable mix and match min/max build that players can devise is on the forums. Strategy guides, maps, build advice, you name it. Its ALL at the fingertips of anyone with an internet connection and a desire to use it.

THAT is what is causing the power creep and top-end clamoring for more challenge, not the fluff and junk being sold in the store. And no, not even the almighty SP pots being sold there, either. Not even in the tiniest bit.

[lhidda]

Why would I play a game to grind some decent gear and items, when other people just buy it from store?

Roleplaying games are based on leveling and gearing a character until it is decent. Believe it or not, but people compare their toons to the toons of others and sometimes think: Wow, that is a nice wizard, he whails and all stuff around him is dead, even in higher difficulties. Did he grind all that gear and tomes until he got that beautiful wizard or did he just buy it in store?

Stop bringing pay2win content to store.

[hobgoblins]

Do you seriously think that epic LOB would not be easier if there were no spell point potions?
How about elite Abbot? Of the very very few who now complete this quest, how many
would have completed without sp potions?

The existence of spell point potions don't cause a small effect in game tuning, they cause a
large effect.

Sometimes I wonder if people truly believe the weak commentary they used in an effort to nullify
profoundly obvious and non controversial positions. Brain up guys/gals! :)

I do understand that ddo needs to make money, but its just a shame they have to do
it by allowing pay to win.

End pay to win, end cheater potions, end raid tomes in store, and anything the developers
intend to introduce in subsequent updates that make the game even more p2w.
Lets have a game that those who wish to be the best actually have to be talented and
put in the work, not just take an hour of real life work and buy the trophies.

I guess this is just tilting at windmills, as the current thrust in games virtually across the board
is to create the impression that everyone is skilled and a superstar.

Why else do you think they deny us difficult content? Its so everyone can do all the content in the
game if they try hard. Everyone gets a badge, everyone is a hero.
Everyone is allowed to delude themselves into thinking they are the best.

A+'s for all, cause you deserve it! :)

Sorry for all the vitriol, I am a somewhat nice guy in person :)

[zwiebelring]

Why would I play a game to grind some decent gear and items, when other people just buy it from store?

Roleplaying games are based on leveling and gearing a character until it is decent. Believe it or not, but people compare their toons to the toons of others and sometimes think: Wow, that is a nice wizard, he whails and all stuff around him is dead, even in higher difficulties. Did he grind all that gear and tomes until he got that beautiful wizard or did he just buy it in store?

Stop bringing pay2win content to store.
That is their headache if they want to compare. Anyway so far there is no p2w stuff in the store. Stopping the micropayment system wills top DDO now.

[Halock]

What you buy in the store doesn't have a large effect on other players (because there aren't all that many things worth buying in the store), but it does have an effect.

Every little bit of increased power that players accumulate adds up. Some of that power comes from the store. Turbine has had to scale up several raids in an effort to make them "challenging" to high level players. Some of that increase in "challenge" has come because of extra power that players have bought from the store.

Store purchases haven't been a majority of the power creep that DDO has experienced over its lifetime, but they have contributed. If other buy from the store, it does effect you one bit. Not a large bit, but it is at least a small bit.

You're argument falls flat on its face due to the fact that the power did not come from the store, it came from ingame items and a level cap increase along with the extra power that brings along

Also, those raids you mention, were jokes before the store was introduced, were run by toons easily when the level cap was 16 on all difficulty levels

Paying to reduce time is not the same as buying power

[Halock]

Why would I play a game to grind some decent gear and items, when other people just buy it from store?

Roleplaying games are based on leveling and gearing a character until it is decent. Believe it or not, but people compare their toons to the toons of others and sometimes think: Wow, that is a nice wizard, he whails and all stuff around him is dead, even in higher difficulties. Did he grind all that gear and tomes until he got that beautiful wizard or did he just buy it in store?

Stop bringing pay2win content to store.


So if he played 12 hours a day to get all that gear and tomes when you can only play 1 hour a day, that makes the power disparity acceptable for you?

So you're fine with them making it so you can never equal someone who has more time, but not fine with them allowing you to pay to equal them with money?

And i say equal on purpose, because as of now there is nothing in the store you can buy to make yourself MORE powerful than another character, the best you can get is equal and in most cases not even that

[Templarion]

Donating my personal opinion to this thread:

Every microtransaction game has P2W concept.
In DDO, I don't care because I am not competing against the players who pay.
On the other hand, if DDO had valid PvP scene, then P2W concept would be hurting that big time.

[HungarianRhapsody]

You're argument falls flat on its face due to the fact that the power did not come from the store, it came from ingame items and a level cap increase along with the extra power that brings along

Also, those raids you mention, were jokes before the store was introduced, were run by toons easily when the level cap was 16 on all difficulty levels

Paying to reduce time is not the same as buying power

If someone bought items from the store that increased their character's power, then that increase in power came from the store. Now, the increase in power that came from the store is relatively minor compared to the increase in power that came from in-game acquired items, but it is still an increase in power.

If you increase your power with something that you bought from the store, then you have more power than you would have had if you had not bought that thing from the store. I fail to see how this is a complicated concept.

I'm not saying that all or even most of the power creep in DDO comes from the DDO store (although Mnemonic pots are certainly a real contribution to that power creep for blue bars). All that I'm saying is that it's false to claim that the DDO store purchases have no effect on other players. It doesn't have a big effect, but even if you leave out the reduction in perceived value of those purchased objects that comes from their rarity, DDO store purchases of items does have an effect on other players. I'm not saying that it's huge. I'm just saying that it exists.

[HungarianRhapsody]

And if a fly farts in the sewer, the entire city smells worse than before, rgiht?

If you throw a bucket into the ocean, it's not much, but don't say that it isn't anything. Just say that it's not significant.

It's not that hard to be correct.

[varusso]

Do you seriously think that epic LOB would not be easier if there were no spell point potions?
How about elite Abbot? Of the very very few who now complete this quest, how many
would have completed without sp potions?

The existence of spell point potions don't cause a small effect in game tuning, they cause a
large effect.

Sometimes I wonder if people truly believe the weak commentary they used in an effort to nullify
profoundly obvious and non controversial positions. Brain up guys/gals! :)

I do understand that ddo needs to make money, but its just a shame they have to do
it by allowing pay to win.

End pay to win, end cheater potions, end raid tomes in store, and anything the developers
intend to introduce in subsequent updates that make the game even more p2w.
Lets have a game that those who wish to be the best actually have to be talented and
put in the work, not just take an hour of real life work and buy the trophies.

I guess this is just tilting at windmills, as the current thrust in games virtually across the board
is to create the impression that everyone is skilled and a superstar.

Why else do you think they deny us difficult content? Its so everyone can do all the content in the
game if they try hard. Everyone gets a badge, everyone is a hero.
Everyone is allowed to delude themselves into thinking they are the best.

A+'s for all, cause you deserve it! :)

Sorry for all the vitriol, I am a somewhat nice guy in person :)

They have been screwing up Abbot since they introduced the quest; that has nothing to do with the store. It has everything to do with simply not doing due diligence to get it right before releasing their latest band-aid to fix the last fix of the last fix of the last fix. LOB (and other new quests/raids) are harder because they are designed to challenge the capped/near-capped players who have all their pretty little toys and gadgets they have gleaned from running all the other content over the last few years. Once again, the power creep is due to things IN GAME, not in the store.

SP pots are available in the game, and not even really that hard to get, if you have the plat or grind for them. SP pots in the store are the same items, just using RL $$ to get instead. For every person willing to shell out gobs of $$ to buy stacks of these things, there are just as many unwilling or unable to do so. And yet again, I have YET to meet the mythical person who lives off the DDO store pots. So no, I am not buying into the nonsense that the SP pots in the store are causing the devs to make quests more challenging, nor are they the source of player demands for harder content. The players calling for more challenge are the ones that are uber-twinked with in-game gear, or hardcore veterans of gaming period, looking for more challenge. Almost by definition, the players who buy convenience items like SP pots with any regularity are the ones who DONT want their game to be more challenging than it is. Thats WHY they buy them instead of farm them or buy them in-game.

[varusso]

If you throw a bucket into the ocean, it's not much, but don't say that it isn't anything. Just say that it's not significant.

It's not that hard to be correct.

Does the water in the bucket actually change the TOTAL water on the planet? No, it doesnt; that is the actual picture you should be shooting for when talking about things like power creep in the game: the total effect it has on the game itself, not on a small segment of it. You may infinitesimally change the difference in the water level between a lake somewhere and a vast ocean, but you do not affect the total level of water on the planet. God (or whatever) does not make it rain more in the desert due to the bucket of water you dropped in the ocean. In other words, the devs are NOT engineering harder content to account for store purchases; they are engineering harder content to challenge the players who have been farming their power in-game for years.

If you are trying to get to the roof of a 2-story house, and you have 2 ladders, one that is tall enough to reach the roof, and one that barely reaches the second floor, does the second ladder even matter? Did it in any way contribute to your ability to reach the roof? Was it even worth mentioning that you HAD the second ladder?

Absurd fables and anecdotes aside:

When equal or better means are available for players to acquire power, the piddly stuff they can buy in the store are meaningless in terms of actual power; it is convenience and nothing more. They do not give an advantage that cannot be mirrored (or bested) by other items in-game. Two two most "powerful" items in the store are SP pots and stat tomes. A player can get same or better in-game. The store does NOT raise the power level above what is available in-game, so it is not a factor. It is merely a more convenient way (for some) to reach an equal or lower plateau than those who gather it in-game.

So long as Turbine continues to restrict store purchases to cosmetic fluff, and actual "power items" to equal or below the threshold of what players can get in-game, then they are doing just fine.The devs are accused of alot of evil shenanigans in the game and its design, but I believe they understand that introducing items in the store that ACTUALLY allow players to gain real power over what they can get in-game (IE: *real* P2W stuff) it would only hurt the game.

[llyrnionfor]

Look at it this way: You're trading a resource you own for something you want.

That resource can either be time or money. You make your choice depending on which you consider most expendable, i.e., depending on whether you have more time or more money.

Ergo, we're all "paying to win".

As someone else pointed out, they could be selling "Auto-Level to 20 Pots" in the DDO Store, for all I care.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Does the water in the bucket actually change the TOTAL water on the planet? No, it doesnt; that is the actual picture you should be shooting for when talking about things like power creep in the game: the total effect it has on the game itself, not on a small segment of it. You may infinitesimally change the difference in the water level between a lake somewhere and a vast ocean, but you do not affect the total level of water on the planet. God (or whatever) does not make it rain more in the desert due to the bucket of water you dropped in the ocean. In other words, the devs are NOT engineering harder content to account for store purchases; they are engineering harder content to challenge the players who have been farming their power in-game for years.

If you are trying to get to the roof of a 2-story house, and you have 2 ladders, one that is tall enough to reach the roof, and one that barely reaches the second floor, does the second ladder even matter? Did it in any way contribute to your ability to reach the roof? Was it even worth mentioning that you HAD the second ladder?

Absurd fables and anecdotes aside:

When equal or better means are available for players to acquire power, the piddly stuff they can buy in the store are meaningless in terms of actual power; it is convenience and nothing more. They do not give an advantage that cannot be mirrored (or bested) by other items in-game. Two two most "powerful" items in the store are SP pots and stat tomes. A player can get same or better in-game. The store does NOT raise the power level above what is available in-game, so it is not a factor. It is merely a more convenient way (for some) to reach an equal or lower plateau than those who gather it in-game.

So long as Turbine continues to restrict store purchases to cosmetic fluff, and actual "power items" to equal or below the threshold of what players can get in-game, then they are doing just fine.The devs are accused of alot of evil shenanigans in the game and its design, but I believe they understand that introducing items in the store that ACTUALLY allow players to gain real power over what they can get in-game (IE: *real* P2W stuff) it would only hurt the game.

If Turbine actually restricted store purchases to cosmetic fluff, then no one would have actually be having this conversation.

[varusso]

If Turbine actually restricted store purchases to cosmetic fluff, then no one would have actually be having this conversation.



So long as Turbine continues to restrict store purchases to cosmetic fluff, and actual "power items" to equal or below the threshold of what players can get in-game, then they are doing just fine.The devs are accused of alot of evil shenanigans in the game and its design, but I believe they understand that introducing items in the store that ACTUALLY allow players to gain real power over what they can get in-game (IE: *real* P2W stuff) it would only hurt the game.

We would have this conversation if all they sold were vanity pets, because someone would complain that they couldnt get a vanity pet in the game. People already complain that they cant get armor kits for crying out loud.

[learst]

If Turbine actually restricted store purchases to cosmetic fluff, then no one would have actually be having this conversation.

Cool.

Let's have a run-through of some posts which I come across often on the forums:

Premium vs VIP:

It's so much cheaper to go premium! VIP is not worth it!
I can play on and off without worrying about a sub!
I'm not liking the direction of Turbine for now, so I"m not giving them another cent while I continue to play for now.
Advice to new players;

Save up your points for adventure packs only!
Only buy points and items on sale!
Do favour runs on all servers!
Items/weapons/potions on DDO store are rip-off!
DDO store:
What happened to the 50% sales?
Zomg the challenges pack cost 1695 TP! I'm not going buy it even on sale!
Armour kits are too expensive, make them cheaper!If Turbine actually restricted store purchases to cosmetic fluff, there would be no DDO to play, no MOTU expansion (thanks to increased hiring). Does anyone seriously expect the microtransaction/F2P model to actually survive and profit based purely on cosmetics sales?? :confused:

Oh but they can make money from AP, classes and race sales. Well, this things come out every other update and it's typically a once-off purchase. And don't forget, a lot of folks buy TP on sale and as well as the store items on sale, further reducing Turbine's profit margin.;)

tl;dr: There would be no DDO now without P2W, however you define it.

[KillEveryone]

If Turbine actually restricted store purchases to cosmetic fluff, then no one would have actually be having this conversation.

Other than being able to purchase adventure packs to get that gear, nothing in the store actually matters so this conversation is stupid.

[mobrien316]

Why would I play a game to grind some decent gear and items, when other people just buy it from store?

Roleplaying games are based on leveling and gearing a character until it is decent. Believe it or not, but people compare their toons to the toons of others and sometimes think: Wow, that is a nice wizard, he whails and all stuff around him is dead, even in higher difficulties. Did he grind all that gear and tomes until he got that beautiful wizard or did he just buy it in store?

Stop bringing pay2win content to store.

Really?

The only reason you would play a game, I assume, is if you enjoy it. If you enjoy running quests and raiding then you should continue to play DDO.

I don't see how you could possibly let the manner in which other people acquire their loot, especially when you can acquire the exact same item in the exact same manner if you choose to do so, affect your enjoyment of the game.


If you were playing PnP, and enjoying yourself, would you suddenly stop having fun if it occurred to you that someone on the other side of the world, that you don't know and are not playing with, might have slipped his DM five bucks in order to get an item you had to work hard for in order to acquire? Would letting that bother you make any sense at all?

[Jeremiah179]

I am constantly baffled by this thread...

I have been a gamer all of my life...I am a grandparent now. I have a job which requires at times 60 hours of my time. I also have civic responsibilities.

Somehow, many of the posters are saying that, their free-to-play 8 hours a day commitment to the game with their group of ftp friends....grinding everything to dust under their boots and causing most of the problems with out leveling content and whining about the game being boring...

Are more valuable than the pay-to-play 10-15 hours a week or less... VIP, potion buying, tome buying etc. Players...

I think DDO has done a very good job with what they choose to sell... even the +3 tomes. There is absolutely no way to know who is skilled and a thinking, pay attention type player and who isn't... some had some money to pay for things to get them done faster...some had time... but neither equals skill.

You have total control over who you play with...all of the quests are instanced.

I have capped my toon once and am running him through again.... I have spent a couple hundred dollars for VIP and using TP for rez cakes...+2 and +3 tomes, a few gold seals, misc other junk... I have played almost the entire game solo.... been on about a dozen group quests total...

I am not hurting anyone, I am having fun playing DDO...my money helps create new content and keep game alive.

If I had to "earn" everything no matter what... I would of given up a long time ago.

There are just as many players, possibly A LOT more players actually with time and group resources to grind everything is game and have limitless plat...have enjoyed exploits with just a wrist slap etc. And can get nearly anything in the game they want. This is what is pushing stress on game environment way more than PTW.

I doubt there are "A LOT" of players actually breaking the game with purchases....if any. And the few that make purchases often are helping a whole group enjoy the hour or more they just spent together, possibly avoiding a wipe.

Sorry so long... allowing people who do not have time to pay instead, does not break game. The game is a commercial, financial endeavour and needs to be profitable. DDO has ran the store overall in a responsible way.

[Tomalon]

I "pay to win!"

I pay my Sub every month and i log on and play with friends everyday<--- win for me. :D

[Dartwick]

Cluesless OP doesnt understand that different people have differnt concepts of winning.

[AestorTheKnight]

Turbine does a good job in keeping the DDO store and other areas of the game Fair.. Fair enough to be fun.

This! :)

[lhidda]

As someone else pointed out, they could be selling "Auto-Level to 20 Pots" in the DDO Store, for all I care.

If that comes you can instantly buy completionist (auto-level to 20 and druidic heart). Then you can finally pay 2 win ddo. Consider me gone if that happens.

[mobrien316]

If that comes you can instantly buy completionist (auto-level to 20 and druidic heart). Then you can finally pay 2 win ddo. Consider me gone if that happens.

Just out of curiosity (since I don't think Turbine will ever offer Level 20 in the store), why would you leave if that happens? How would it negatively affect your gaming experience or your enjoyment of DDO?


If you see someone with wings now, all that you know is that they TR'd. That's it. It doesn't mean they are knowledgeable, or skillful, or function well as a member of a group. I have encountered complete idiots with multiple past lives, and terrific players on their first life. I have also encountered wonderful players with multiple TR's, and idiots on their first life.

When I join a group, I truly could not care less how the other members of the group acquired their gear, or acquired their levels, or whatever. All I care about is if they can play or not. If they can, great! This will be a good group. If they can't, oh well... I will look for another group when this quest is done.

[lhidda]

Just out of curiosity (since I don't think Turbine will ever offer Level 20 in the store), why would you leave if that happens? How would it negatively affect your gaming experience or your enjoyment of DDO?

It is a game, I dont want that achievements can be bought in store. I do not have a completionist, but that would be slap in the face to all of those who got completionist feat the normal way.

I want people to have equivalent opportunities in a game regardless of how much money they spend in the game. If not, it is not the right game for me. Period.

[Halock]

It is a game, I dont want that achievements can be bought in store. I do not have a completionist, but that would be slap in the face to all of those who got completionist feat the normal way.

I want people to have equivalent opportunities in a game regardless of how much money they spend in the game. If not, it is not the right game for me. Period.

Looks like i gota repeat myself -So if he played 12 hours a day to get completionist when you can only play 1 hour a day, that makes the power disparity acceptable for you?

[llyrnionfor]

It is a game, I dont want that achievements can be bought in store. I do not have a completionist, but that would be slap in the face to all of those who got completionist feat the normal way.

I want people to have equivalent opportunities in a game regardless of how much money they spend in the game. If not, it is not the right game for me. Period.

1. What do you mean, achievement?

My ranger's got all Threnal on elite. Know why? Because a guildie wiz was TRing and I went along with him. We duoed it (along with a hireling for me). I've achieved little in there. My major contribution was as cannon fodder for the beholders, so he could one-shot them.

I probably could just have piked at the entrance, and go watch some videos while he finished it all.

And yet, if there was a "leaderboard", my ranger would show the "achievement" of all Threnal quests on elite.

Actually, if you have generous guildies, you can get all the way to 20 completing almost everything on elite.

I'll tell you what I consider an achievement, on that toon. I finally learned "Tomb of the Wiz King", and soloed it on hard. No big deal, granted, but for me it was an achievement.

2. I want people to have equivalent opportunities in a game regardless of how much time they spend in the game. If not, it is not the right game for me. Period.

[Eleia]

This topic keeps poping up and I still don't understand why some people are worried about what others pay for.

I'm sick so I stay at home. No kids either so don't go there. I have 24 hours a day 7 days a week to play any game I want and I've been playing DDO since the end of 06.

I poke fun of myself on the forums, and can play the "noob" pretty well, but asides from raiding and epics (I've been saving that content tbh) there isn't anything I haven't done or gotten, or looted.

When I want to I can level up a character super quick, with or with out store bought stuff it's just fluff.

I haven't needed content decreased, I didn't need dungeon scaling, casual, bla bla bla, but you dont seem me complaining. Over there years I have worked my arse off for loot, only to see the rules change and it get easier to get.

My point is I have an ungodly amount of time to play. By some people's standards here (just some not all) I'm one of the few people playing this game that has any right to due to the fact that I'm putting time in and time served.

But this isn't a single player game, and content, items and the store have been changed and implemented so the largest amount of people here can play and I'm grateful.

And I buy tones of stuff in the store. I don't need to I just like to.

I like the thought that some guy who is super busy in his life can play ddo, get some xp pots a +3 supreme tome and be playing next to me in a group.

Trust me time spent in a game increases your skill level to be sure. But it doesnt make you better and it doesn't make your time, your character, or your life more valuable than anothers.

just my opinion.

[Xynot2]

For every player in the game, there is a different opinion on how it SHOULD be played. So no one is wrong.

UNLESS!!! You effect the enjoyment of others. My advice? Find a guild who has relatively the same opinions about how the game SHOULD be played so that you enjoy your play time. You cannot didctate or try to have Turbine dictate what people SHOULD do in this case.

I've bought SP pots from the store. Havent done it again because to ME, it's not cost/reward balanced. Would I do it regularly if I had the money to waste? Maybe. Im a stingy SoB so probably not. I dont like the monthly bill of VIP so I buy content. But that's my style.

And what does it matter if bad players buy epic content(not that I have ever seen any in the store)? They're bad players and people that frequently run epic content, arent going to invite people to go with them that aren't good players. Bad players weed themselves out even with epic gear. Period.


Note: My definition of a bad player is one who refuses to read up on builds, gameplay, how different aspects fit into the game- IE the guy who comes into the harbor and shouts *how do I quest* because he's too lazy to explore the game.

[nickzed]

BLAM!!! Hook, line, and sinker, right there.

Turbine creates a TR system. What was stopping them from leaving the XP total required to cap a toon regardless of lives at 1.9M? Answer...NOTHING. Nothing at all. But wait....it gets better. They more than DOUBLED the XP required, and did so in a completely arbitrary fashion. Why? Because we said so that why. Then they waited a couple years while people complained about how much of a grind the TR game is just to create one solid toon.

During that time they provide XP pots you can BUY to lessen the grind, but when that isnt enough, they create XP tomes you can BUY as well to further lessen the grind.

1st life = 1.9m XP to cap and each additional life = 1.9m XP to cap + no XP tomes or pots in the store.

-vs-

1st life = 1.9 XP to cap, 2nd life = 3,139,250 to cap, 3rd and every life afterward = 4,378,500 XP to cap + purchasable XP pots and XP tomes in the store.

Roughly the same grind. Whats the difference. $$$$$$$

1. Increase amount of XP required for 3rd or higher life TR to cap.
2. Put purchasable XP pots and XP tomes into the store.
3. ???
4. Profit.

This was literally DESIGNED to be pay to win. They did it in such a fashion over a large enough period of time where people are THANKING them for it, heh. Conveniently no one seems to remember that the amount of XP needed to cap was jacked up to more than double the normal amount in a completely arbitrary fashion, because it was done long enough ago players just think its the standard. This is akin to ramping up prices on specific items in a department store 200% then putting them on sale at 50% off, but the coupon for 50% off is in a book you have to buy, heh.


Company needs money from customers in order to continue thriving, story at 11.

Also, people with guns shoot things.


Seriously though. This is ridiculous. If this game were competitive at all maybe there would be an issue. What one character has, and how they obtained it, has no bearing on your gameplay experience. It makes no sense. It's like saying you are unhappy playing PC Game X because you pirated it for free, but you know other people bought it, and that ruins your experience as a free player.

[Pfold]

Sure the game isn't competitive however I think folks are more concerned with competence.

The piracy example is pretty bad. A better analogy would be :

Would you rather have a person in party that grinded their character to where it is or a person that bought the account yesterday?


In the end, what this really boils down to is the buying/selling of shortcuts. The main reason I am leery of it all is because it's being done by a company with a poor track record.

[Vormaerin]

Would you rather have a person in party that grinded their character to where it is or a person that bought the account yesterday?
\.

Depends on which one is more fun to play with. Buying doesn't equal incompetence and there are lots of ways to pike through the grind.

[Volaxis]

It's like playing a real game of D&D and one of the players is a girl who says she will have sex with the GM if he makes her character powerful, sure we could come to her level and all go down on the GM, but really its not very sporting.

To my mind +3 tombs is another example of accountants ruining a game for its users. If the only thing turbine got paid for was the packs they put out then you could be sure the game would be much more rich and full of things to do.

Having to buy destinies is a sign that you will have to pay to win more and more, next thing you will have to pay 2cents every time you swing an axe.