Natural spell, yea or nay?

[sly_1]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Natural_Spell

Will this feat be in MotU?

Personally I don't think druids are correctly implemented without it, but there is speculation the feat is absent in favor of shape specific sla's.

Join hands and chant with me, brothers and sisters! donkey smell!! give us natural spell!!(ok my chant sucks i couldn't think of anything that rhymes with spell, sue me :P )

[Voldomar]

I can't see a druid in bear form scroll healing the tank in raids, that would be...awkward ^^
But not having Natural spell and not being able to cast in wild shape would be a huge letdown.

I'm still quite optimistic. Maybe the sla will be akin to archmage's spell like abilities, something that's not meant to replace spellcasting altogether: you could buy them with ap and they are tied to a specific wild/elemental form.

Fingers crossed

[JasonJi72]

Not having Nature Spell may be a 'balancing' factor.

If this is the case, then I would hope to see some powerful shapes and useful SLA's associated with them.

Perhaps Druids will be a bit more than gimp cleric/wizards with the ability to shift into a bleh form.

If they make Druids into effective casters in their own right with a powerful shapeshift ability, I can definitely see why Nature Spell would not be implemented.

I just hope they add spears to the game at some point.

[learst]

I can't see a druid in bear form scroll healing the tank in raids, that would be...awkward ^^
But not having Natural spell and not being able to cast in wild shape would be a huge letdown.
Fingers crossed

I always thought Natural Spell only allows you to cast spell when shapeshifted, but not using scroll/wands/pots etc.

Although I'm not too sure going by the description
http://dndtools.eu/feats/masters-of-the-wild-a-guidebook-to-barbarians-druids-and-rangers--44/natural-spell--2035/


Not having Nature Spell may be a 'balancing' factor.

I agree. I don't really mind either way if Natural Spell is implemented or not. As long as the Druids are fun to play. :o

[licho]

I prefer to not see natural spell anytime soon. SImple becouse this will give a choice for druid to stay in flesh and cast, or go to some form to use resistance or extra hp.

From the other side class cost 1500tp, it must sell so it will have natural spell, selfhealing, meleeing, blasts, instakills, and whatever you need.

[Valakai]

I'm sure they will be given all the treats in the beginning to get people to buy and then nerfed heavily in next few updates.

I'm personally leaning a little against it so you have to choose to be either powerful melee or powerful caster and ofc you can switch roles quite fast.

[Shinjiteru]

I hope we don't get that feat. If each shape shifting form has good SLAs and have enough AP to get at least 2 different forms maxed out they are already versatile enough so that giving them selfhealing in wolf/baer form sounds completely overpowered to me.
But yeah... this opinion is based on the implementation of druid class in other games, and there this feat would have made the druid really overpowered. But since DDO isn't much into PvP it wouldn't be gamebreaking if we would get this feat, probably would just raise the fun playing a druid.

[MrkGrismer]

Based on the small amount of information we have seen so far it appears that druids will not have their full spell list when wildshaped, but instead of a 'custom spell list' for each of the four (? is that all ?) forms. IIRC this was similar to what Neverwinter Nights did.

If each of the forms is useful situationally I think that is fine.

Allowing natural spell to allow a druid full spellcasting would certainly be more flexible but it would seem to be much more difficult to balance.

[voodoogroves]

PHB2 introduced a druid variant that could NOT cast while wildshaped and attempted to streamline the issues with Shapechange / Polymorph and similar effects on the druid.

PNP forms are crazy good, and crazy-open ended. DDO has to change something for balance.




I could see them being cosmetic+, similar to Undead forms and each granting some 2-3 basic additional capabilities (trip, maul, shoot fire, bark bees, whatever) ... but where those capabilities aren't more than typical SLAs. I could also see them as having significant capabilities, but then they'd need to lock out others.

[Aesop]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Natural_Spell

Will this feat be in MotU?

Personally I don't think druids are correctly implemented without it, but there is speculation the feat is absent in favor of shape specific sla's.

Join hands and chant with me, brothers and sisters! donkey smell!! give us natural spell!!(ok my chant sucks i couldn't think of anything that rhymes with spell, sue me :P )

Try, "ring the Bell" or "give'em Hell" or "our hearts swell" or "treat us well"


on the other front I'd say a problem with Natural Spell is that it is a no-brainer. Gee I can either take this feat and be twice as powerful in my alternate form or... I can not take this feat and be half as powerful as I could be... TOUGH DECISION...

I think that is where the SLAs for the forms are coming from. Partial access to spell like effects based upon the form you take in place of a required feat.

My question is whether or not Magic Items will be suppressed or used while in Wild Shape. Because of the high power of the items in the game I'd say if not then the Druid will not be hanging out in their wild shapes too often... except as a novelty.

Aesop

[Voldomar]

I always thought Natural Spell only allows you to cast spell when shapeshifted, but not using scroll/wands/pots etc.


Right.
I've should have said: I can see why a druid in bear form won't be able to scroll heal a tank.
My english is rudimentary at best.
Anyway I'm good with that kind of limitations. Not having Natural Spell? Huge letdown.
Some sort of bladesworn transformation+sla won't cut.


Devs could you please clarify if druids are still going to be able to have access to all class spells while in wild shape?
Puppies are dying here!
Thanks

[Talon_Moonshadow]

My preference is that it "Not" be available in the initial release.

Then sit back and evalute Druids in the game. Then decide if they want to add it or not.

[jortann]

From the other side class cost 1500tp, it must sell so it will have natural spell, selfhealing, meleeing, blasts, instakills, and whatever you need.

I'm guessing this ^^

[Aesop]

My preference is that it "Not" be available in the initial release.

Then sit back and evalute Druids in the game. Then decide if they want to add it or not.

I'm kinda with you on this one Talon

Aesop

[xoowak]

My guess is that they will be able to cast, but at an increased spell point cost, possibly with an AP line to reduce the cost. Otherwise I feel the forms would have to be very strong to make of for the loss of casting, armor, and weapons (Seems unlikely to me that they'd go PnP and disable all gear in form) and make it a viable option as anything other than something to do when out of SP.

[sephiroth1084]

My preference is that it "Not" be available in the initial release.

Then sit back and evalute Druids in the game. Then decide if they want to add it or not.
This, except I don't EVER want to see the feat added. Instead, decide if they should be allowed to cast while in wildshape, and if yea, simply allow them to do so, or let them spend a point or two of AP on it. I was never a fan of feat taxes like that.

[dameron]

I don't see the wildshape forms being so much more powerful than the undead forms available to the pale master, which also get SLA abilities as part of the prc, so unless they really knock my socks off I'm going to be very disappointed to have three or four toolbars greyed out when I swap forms.

[Chai]

From the other side class cost 1500tp, it must sell so it will have natural spell, selfhealing, meleeing, blasts, instakills, and whatever you need.

This.

You can bet theres a few people whose job description right now is: Make sure druids dont suck.

[airavon]

I think certain spells should be allowed while in form, not all. I think instead of deciding which ones are good for the form, just decide which aren't. For example, You might not be able to cast Spike Growth in bear form, or cure light wounds in wolf form, etc.

[Xeraphim]

I always thought Natural Spell only allows you to cast spell when shapeshifted, but not using scroll/wands/pots etc.

Although I'm not too sure going by the description
http://dndtools.eu/feats/masters-of-the-wild-a-guidebook-to-barbarians-druids-and-rangers--44/natural-spell--2035/


I agree. I don't really mind either way if Natural Spell is implemented or not. As long as the Druids are fun to play. :o


By the SRD, correct. Scrolls, wands and clickies are a no-no while in Wildshape even with this feat.

[Silverleafeon]

This is the feat that made Druids the most powerful class in 3.5 edition D&D.

Handle with care...

[Indoran]

I always thought Natural Spell only allows you to cast spell when shapeshifted, but not using scroll/wands/pots etc.

Although I'm not too sure going by the description
http://dndtools.eu/feats/masters-of-the-wild-a-guidebook-to-barbarians-druids-and-rangers--44/natural-spell--2035/


I agree. I don't really mind either way if Natural Spell is implemented or not. As long as the Druids are fun to play. :o

Not being able to use scrolls would be a balancing factor... (forget about healing some raids while shapeshifted)

Also I would like to see natural spell in the game...

[sephiroth1084]

Why does everyone want a feat tax on a class that doesn't have bonus feats?

At worst, make Natural Spell an enhancement tax, like the first rank of Inscribed Armor is for WF arcanes. Either druids should be able to cast while wildshaped or they shouldn't; they should not need to take a feat to make one part of their class work with the other part.

[Kielbasa]

Give them natural spell at level 20.

[decease]

if they make shape strong enough to stand alone, then am ok without natural spell. though likely i will not be healing role..

[alexp80]

if they make shape strong enough to stand alone, then am ok without natural spell. though likely i will not be healing role..

This is the point.
I think that animal form could never be strong enough to compensate the loss of spellcasting for druid.
In a melee form such as bear of wolf, which is an adeguate compensation? +20str/+20con?
I think it's not enough and I think the bonus will be lower.

So natural spell is really needed

[DrawingGuy]

Why is it that people think that they should get shape shifts that give bonuses with no penalties? No armor means nothing in a game that AC means nothing. Any move that prevents wands/clickies has always been circumvented by using those items before that move, so it's no penalty. Who cares if you can't use scrolls? If you're supposed to be scroll healing, you simply don't change shape. You're already getting special stats with the shape. You're already getting special spells for the shape. And it's balanced to then still keep all your old spells too? It was OP to do so in PnP (and that was at a feat cost, so to do anything less here would make it even more stupidly OP). It would be even more OP in DDO with the unlimited spell use. I want shape shifts to be fun forms that actually have a tradeoff... not a buff button.

[decease]

This is the point.
I think that animal form could never be strong enough to compensate the loss of spellcasting for druid.
In a melee form such as bear of wolf, which is an adeguate compensation? +20str/+20con?
I think it's not enough and I think the bonus will be lower.

So natural spell is really needed

they could..for example

bear shape-
-your base hit dice become d12
-you gain 2 natural bonus to ac for every 5 druid level
-you gain 1 natural bonus to Intimidate skill for every druid level
-your base attack have a chance to stun your enemy (dc = druid level + 10 + wis mod + stunning weapon)
-your bab equal to fighter of same level
-you gain combat expertise feat

wolf shape-
- 1d6 sneak attack damage for every 2 druid level
-evasion at level 6, improved evasion at 12
-+1 natural bonus to reflex save for every 3 druid level
-+1 natural bonus to hide and move silently skill for every druid level.
-you gain vapor to your attack at level 18
-you gain power attack feat

[Voldomar]

Any move that prevents wands/clickies has always been circumvented by using those items before that move, so it's no penalty. Who cares if you can't use scrolls?
.....
.....
I want shape shifts to be fun forms that actually have a tradeoff... not a buff button.

Wild shape IS a buff button.
It is a powerful ability in pnp and it has many drawbacks. Some of them can be circumvented ( natural spell ) some others can't be. We'll see how it's going to work in ddo.
Not being able to use wands,clickies and scrolls in this game would be a huge trade-off in itself. If you can't see it, than I don't know what to say.

[MrkGrismer]

Wild shape IS a buff button.
It is a powerful ability in pnp and it has many drawbacks. Some of them can be circumvented ( natural spell ) some others can't be. We'll see how it's going to work in ddo.
Not being able to use wands,clickies and scrolls in this game would be a huge trade-off in itself. If you can't see it, than I don't know what to say.

They stated it will work like a stance. (and that is about all they have really stated on it)

[Aesop]

they could..for example

bear shape-
-your base hit dice become d12
-you gain 2 natural bonus to ac for every 5 druid level
-you gain 1 natural bonus to Intimidate skill for every druid level
-your base attack have a chance to stun your enemy (dc = druid level + 10 + wis mod + stunning weapon)
-your bab equal to fighter of same level
-you gain combat expertise feat

wolf shape-
- 1d6 sneak attack damage for every 2 druid level
-evasion at level 6, improved evasion at 12
-+1 natural bonus to reflex save for every 3 druid level
-+1 natural bonus to hide and move silently skill for every druid level.
-you gain vapor to your attack at level 18
-you gain power attack feat

I like the idea though I'd probably parse it out a little differently


Wolf

+2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con
+1d6 Sneak Attack/3 Druid Levels
Threat Reduction 10% +5%/5 Druid Levels
Movement +25%
Evasion
Natural Attack 1d6 19-20/x2
Improve Natural Attack (Druid 9) 1d8 19-20/x2
Greater Natural Attack (Druid 18) 2d6 19-20/x2
Critical Trip: On Critical Hits proc a Trip Attempt with a +2 to the DC
Howl(SLA): Group Buff/Mass Debuff: +2 Morale Bonus to Attack and Damage for allies enemies are Shaken (DC 10 +1/2 Druid Level + Wis Mod)


Bear

+8 Str, +4 Con
Threat Increase 50% +10%/4 Druid Levels
Damage Mitigation 5% +5%/5 Druid Levels
Natural Armor 2+1/5 Druid Levels
Natural Attack 1d8 20/x3
Improved Natural Attack (Druid 12) 2d6 20/x3
Greater Natural Attack (Druid 20) 3d6 20/x3
Critical Stun: On Critical Hits proc a Stun Attempt
Rend (Druid 15): Vorpal strike
IT'S A BEAR!(SLA): Draw Threat like Intimidate skill Will Save to resist (DC 10+ Druid level +Wis Mod)



Then I'd have some Enhancements to add templates to the forms like

Dire Wolf
additional
+2 Str +2 Con
+2 Natural Armor
+2 Trip


Winter Wolf
+2 Str
Frost Ward
Icy Claw (Frost weapon on natural attack)
Breathe Weapon (SLA) 1d6 Cold/2 Druid levels


Dire Bear
+4 Str
+2 Natural Armor
Mangle (Maiming weapon on natural attack)


or something like that ... maybe

Aesop

[fatherpirate]

I see alot of...for balance sake..I don't want to see nature spell feat.

ok, for argument lets do that

Now over to the necro wizzards....NO spell casting in zombie form and drop
int to 1..no spell casting wraith form except listed wraith abilities, casting is allowed
in vamp form but if you go outside during daylight you vaporize instantly.
Lich form can also cast spells

ok back to the reality of DDO, such as it is

Given the loss of gear/armor/weapon bonuses in poly form..if you take away their
spells as well, there is absolutely no reason to change forms...ever.
It would be an instant huge gimp

but but whimper but look at the pluses as a bear ???
and eliminate every plus and bonus you get from your gear...and no spells
Super gimp

[fatherpirate]

Why is it that people think that they should get shape shifts that give bonuses with no penalties? No armor means nothing in a game that AC means nothing. Any move that prevents wands/clickies has always been circumvented by using those items before that move, so it's no penalty. Who cares if you can't use scrolls? If you're supposed to be scroll healing, you simply don't change shape. You're already getting special stats with the shape. You're already getting special spells for the shape. And it's balanced to then still keep all your old spells too? It was OP to do so in PnP (and that was at a feat cost, so to do anything less here would make it even more stupidly OP). It would be even more OP in DDO with the unlimited spell use. I want shape shifts to be fun forms that actually have a tradeoff... not a buff button.

no armor ? I am sorry...no

no armor
no weapons
no helm
no trinket
no cloak
no gloves
no boots
no wrist guards
no belt
no shield
no goggles
no wands
no potions
no scrolls
no clickys

your an animal thats it.

add no spells, then your a trash mob

[decease]

no armor ? I am sorry...no

no armor
no weapons
no helm
no trinket
no cloak
no gloves
no boots
no wrist guards
no belt
no shield
no goggles
no wands
no potions
no scrolls
no clickys

your an animal thats it.

add no spells, then your a trash mob

thats exactly what i was thinking..

[NaturalHazard]

Yes please I would actually most likely not buy druid class if they didnt have this feat...... balance it please though.

Hmmm in 3.5 druids where the most powerful class? well clerics, wizards, favoured souls, and sorcs + a lot of other spell casters where not *that* far behind.

[decease]

hmm how about this? lets solve this issue with both solution

let there be two type of form. one type is very strong and stand alone, which do not allow natural spell. but they grant huge bonus that allow druid to fill the role of minor dps or off tank

let the second type of from be such as caster form, like shroud, which give minor bonus but allow natural spell.

[fatherpirate]

I will go out on a limb

How to have nature spell feat and balance it.

Do keep in mind that you need to take the feat

1. only works with memorized druid spells...no scrolls, wands ect.
2. spell must require no material comp. OR you must also use the meta-magic feat that eliminates the need
if your form is not humanoid. In PnP some druid forms are humanoid..but prob not in DDO.
3. wolf / bear no restrictions on the spell list
4. If you are in elemental form, casting attack spells of the oposite is not allowed
as in, if your a water elemental, you can't throw fire wall.

I would only use these retrictions if you still had all the effects from your gear, minus armor and weapon

I all your gear was turned off...I would put no restrictions

That is just me

One issue would be...this would be complicated.

Side note - druid were considered one of the most powerful classes in PnP
because they could turn into just about anything needed...need a snake..bam snake
need a bird...bam bird, need a shark you get the picture.

In DDO that is not happening so the idea that they are going to be uber powerful
is based on abilities they will not have.

[THOTHdha]

My guess is that they will be able to cast, but at an increased spell point cost, possibly with an AP line to reduce the cost. Otherwise I feel the forms would have to be very strong to make of for the loss of casting, armor, and weapons (Seems unlikely to me that they'd go PnP and disable all gear in form) and make it a viable option as anything other than something to do when out of SP.

Where does this kind of wild speculation come from? I haven't seen anything to suggest any of these things.

More information and more precise confirmation is always a good thing, but everything that has been said so far leads to the use of a handful of SLAs while shape changed. Until it comes from Turbine I would be a bit skeptical about anyone saying that druids will be full-on casting while in forms.

[fatherpirate]

I think someone hit the nail on the head in saying.

He doesn't see the animal forms giving bigger bonuses than the necro forms do.

Most of the folks against druids casting in animal form are assuming some HUGE
stat buffs, huge base hit buff, huge ac buff, huge hp buff ect..
I don't see it happening.

If I can't throw from my spell list in animal...I will not use animal form.

WHY ? As a druid, I don't need to turn into an air elemental to melee...I can summon one
just fine and still retain my spells, armor and gear.

Druid is a PURE spell caster class. Unless your out of mana there is no reason what so ever
to change into a form that robs you of your spells. If your dreaming of building a druid
to become some terror melee beast...make a half orc barbarian...more effective.

But in the end all we can do is wait and see.

I am not worried druids will be too powerful...that is easy to fix, nerf a bit here and there
til it is right

now if you make them too gimp....THATS a problem
folks want refunds
nobody plays them...because they are gimp
no groups want them in their party..because they are gimp
and even if you 'fix' them, the damage is done... the bad rep kills the class.

For some odd reason in MMOs it is easier to take away, then to give.

well, they might throw a curveball at us and druids have almost no relation to
PnP ones...that would be funny.

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