Im a subscriber and Im feeling more and more unhappy.

[Dartwick]

I know many people will disagree but Ill say this stuff anyway.

I feel like for $15 a month I shouldnt be a relative disadvantage to other players.

I understand paying the the new expansion with new content.
Im cool with people having the option to pay extra for a cute pet, funky clothing, and for even the silly looking mask with a moderately nice bonus.

Im not cool with paying extra for experience tomes at a time when the end game is largely composed to reincarnating.(and its insult to injury to remove epic scrolls thus gutting the only other end game option.)

Its not like creating these xp tomes was an expensive content cost that you need to recoup.
Its a money grab. Money grabs are nice I guess, but Im feeling used when Im already paying you a subscription price and you want more for something so useful that costed you almost nothing to make.

[Player357]

I think experience tomes should be earned through game somehow, favor reward or somesuch. I disagree with having to buy them through ddo store as well, feels like this game is getting too greedy. Make us earn these things not pay real money for it, i already pay to play.

[Chai]

The only thing Im disappointed in is the fact that people are still surprised when they make their next move, and customers have to pay for something they thought they would receive for free due to implications from both previous history in similar matters and current marketing advertisements.

Artifisters was the last "surprise surprise" moment for me, and should have been for just about everyone. VIP should all currently expect to pay for anything new and shiny, and rejoice at the increasingly rare times when we are not asked to.

The transition to full on pay to win is not going to happen in a day, or any other short period of time. It will happen over a long period of time, with the slime factor increasing slow enough where each new incarnation of it is supported and defended by the majority, right up to the point where they get bored playing a game that is too easy because everyone can obtain the best gear with minimal effort. Had we gone from how the game was in 2007 to how it is now in 2 months, no one would be able to deny the impact of the transition. When the mass sudden realization does happen, it will be far too late to revoke all changes made that caused the issues people are unsatisfied with, because each one of those will be accounted for with dollar amounts on a spreadsheet, which will prohibit the decision to do so from being made.

Those are my viewpoints as a player.

As a businessman, I have to applaud Turbine for the impeccable marketing strategy and demonstration of understanding of how to implement it. They are basically pioneering the MMO turn around alot of now defunct MMO management teams wish they could have had a hand in, complete with transitioning from a single payment method dead in the water game, to a multiple payment method alive and well six year old MMO. People are jumping all over the fluff hook line and sinker, as well as showing they are more than willing to pay to attain items much faster than they could possibly do so if they were available in game only. Who would have thought that selling entertainment al-la-carte would have proven itself to be the cash cow it has become, and as quickly as it has done so? Slowly easing folks into "pay to win" was the key, and they nailed it.

Yes it is a money grab. They are a for profit business. What did we expect?

[MaximumCharisma]

The only thing Im disappointed in is the fact that people are still surprised when they make their next move, and customers have to pay for something they thought they would receive for free due to implications from both previous history in similar matters and current marketing advertisements.

Artifisters was the last "surprise surprise" moment for me, and should have been for just about everyone. VIP should all currently expect to pay for anything new and shiny, and rejoice at the increasingly rare times when we are not asked to.

First time I think I've 100% agreed with you Chai!

Finally got rid of my VIP yesterday. Every time I read the screen that says "get the all access pass to DDO" I think that is blatant false advertising. Did a little research and I really can't think of worse examples, but I am sure they are out there.

Again, with artificers being buy it only and now expansions the same way...you are stuck either investing the $140 bucks to get the CE and the 11k points to more or less buy the game OR get some kid to sell you the exp pack and the point code he got from his mama's credit card for your in game items...

[Ungood]

Of all the things to feel robbed going VIP over (and make no mistake, there is quite a bit).. an exp tome?

[Sleepsalot]

Well I am ViP plan to stay so.. Why some would ask. Hard and Elite open,, Access to All content when I want it. Some people I think are confused over what ViP means in the day and Age.. It is not Very Important Person.. It is how ever Very Impatient Person. Yes I ma just that I want what I want when I want it with out waiting.. As for the Tomes some one like me with many alts find it to be a good deal. The pets and the rest are Fluff that some people feel a need to have.. This I don't care about at all.. Just my thoughts on all of it.. Some may disagree and is their right to do so...

Sleeps :D :) :D

[psi0nix]

The only issue I see with being VIP is that some classes / races are not available unless bought, this seems a bit much, why are they not like the WF class ?

Paying the monthly VIP should be "ALL ACCESS" as it's advertised to be, when you drop sub sure those classes are no longer available.

It does seem to be getting very money hungry, moreso than most, and while it can be good for the game to have a decent income, it can also eventually if left to go too far lead to people looking elsewhere. As really we are here to play a game and have fun, not just empty our wallets at every opportunity.

[konexion]

It does seem to be getting very money hungry

somebody's gotta pay fr all those beamers and toys they've bought

[Tianie]

I'm dropping VIP, but give it credit, you get 500 points a month (and sometimes more) to buy all those other things that are not free as a vip, so in a way they are part of the vip program.

[sirgog]

I know many people will disagree but Ill say this stuff anyway.

I feel like for $15 a month I shouldnt be a relative disadvantage to other players.

I understand paying the the new expansion with new content.
Im cool with people having the option to pay extra for a cute pet, funky clothing, and for even the silly looking mask with a moderately nice bonus.

Im not cool with paying extra for experience tomes at a time when the end game is largely composed to reincarnating.(and its insult to injury to remove epic scrolls thus gutting the only other end game option.)

Its not like creating these xp tomes was an expensive content cost that you need to recoup.
Its a money grab. Money grabs are nice I guess, but Im feeling used when Im already paying you a subscription price and you want more for something so useful that costed you almost nothing to make.

Simple solution.

Go to myaccount.turbine.com . Cancel subscription. Buy the highest-tier expansion option, and use the money you would have spent on VIP to buy packs and (on non-TRs) the single use Elite unlock tokens.

Solved.

[Mudcnd]

/shrug
They are in it to make money.
As a vip for 5ish yrs , then I went premi , and bought/unlocked everything I think it was much more of a slap in the face to see that a lot of what I had bought prev came in the big bundle package.

What I dont get is your ****ed about XP tomes ? You can use your monthly turbine allowance to buy them, so I dont get what the trouble is.

[Phemt81]

its a money grab. Money grabs are nice i guess, but im feeling used when im already paying you a subscription price and you want more for something so useful that costed you almost nothing to make.

+1

[Ryiah]

Simple solution.

Considering Turbine continues to encourage going Premium over VIP you would think even the more thick-skulled VIPs who are unhappy (nothing wrong with being VIP if you're happy with it) would go this route. :rolleyes:

[Dartwick]

Some of the comments are good.

But the people saying essentially "they are a for profit business" as a sort of retort are making no sense.

Of course Turbine is trying to make money. My point is xp tomes seem to me to be exploitative to the point that I resent it.
Im not suggesting that Turbine doesnt have the right to do this.
Im saying that it least in my case its making me resentful because it seems they are charging a high price for value based on their exclusive position rather than because they added value to the product.

Im not saying my values speak for everyone. Im saying that Im unhappy with Turbine.

[Ungood]

Some of the comments are good.

If you are considering going VIP, there is a link in my Sig, to help you out with what to expect. It might not be the right move for everyone, or anyone but it never hurts to look at your options.

[Eleia]

@ the OP.

I get you're unhappy with Turbine and I respect that.

BUT . . . as much as I'm drooling over the xp tomes they're not needed. It's a luxury item. Any luxury item in this game is going to be something we have to pay for.

And, (just one more but I promise) you shouldn't be unhappy with Turbine. It's WB who is looking at the bottom line and milking us. Turbine has little to do with it any more.

For some reason it seems to be some weird unspoken thing in this game that I've never seen in any other mmorpg. One company is a gaming company full of good people.

The other is a mega-corporation.

That doesn't mean I think you shouldn't be upset, but I think you should be upset at the right things.

just my two cps. :)

[Nyvn]

Simple solution.

Go to myaccount.turbine.com . Cancel subscription. Buy the highest-tier expansion option, and use the money you would have spent on VIP to buy packs and (on non-TRs) the single use Elite unlock tokens.

Solved.



Did this the month after F2P launched. Easily one of the best decisions I've made concerning the game. I can stop playing for awhile and not feel like I'm wasting money on a subscription.

[yawumpus]

I know many people will disagree but Ill say this stuff anyway.

I feel like for $15 a month I shouldnt be a relative disadvantage to other players.


Unless you are comparing only 3XTR toons against other 3XTR toons, you are leveling twice as fast (and advantage which oddly happened the same time this horrible one month wait occurred). A better question would be why should anyone pay upfront when turbine will give other players such a huge advantage.

This bodes ill for anyone considering paying upfront for the expansion.

[goodspeed]

Theirs a solution. Call your credit card/debit card and have further billing disabled. Then cancel it on the game end. (It is very important to follow both steps as the ladder sometimes (often) forgets you even called.)

[HungarianRhapsody]

Yes it is a money grab. They are a for profit business. What did we expect?

I don't mind when Turbine tries to make a profit. I like when they come up with interesting new things to sell that I find attractive.

I just don't like when I see things that look like a cheap, crass money grab that will fatten up their wallets in the short term while hurting the game in the long term.

Thankfully, I don't think that the Premium model will hurt the game in the long term, so the continual "encouragement" that Turbine gives to VIP players to switch to the Premium payment plan and away from the subscription model doesn't bother me.

[CR-Shadowborn]

Just to clarify Epic scrolls were not "removed" from the game it is a bug that the Devs know about and are working on.

[karsion]

Im not cool with paying extra for experience tomes at a time when the end game is largely composed to reincarnating.(and its insult to injury to remove epic scrolls thus gutting the only other end game option.)

Its not like creating these xp tomes was an expensive content cost that you need to recoup.
Its a money grab. Money grabs are nice I guess, but Im feeling used when Im already paying you a subscription price and you want more for something so useful that costed you almost nothing to make.

So you are not cool with having to pay for xp tomes now yet you were cool with having to pay for xp pots before? Or you are not cool with having to pay less to get more xp? Or with the fact you can use your monthly TP allowance to get the tomes for "free"? Is it me or is there some lack of logic here?




I just don't like when I see things that look like a cheap, crass money grab that will fatten up their wallets in the short term while hurting the game in the long term.


Care to elaborate how xp tomes will hurt the game? Guess it won't be through extra money earned that may be put into game development so...?

[Vormaerin]

Not much reason to pay $15 a month even if you are VIP. $30 for 3 months is a much better deal, even if you don't want to spend the $99 for 12 months to get the best value.

If Turbine is encouraging people to go premium, its certainly because they expect premium players to pay more than VIPs do. The patient, penny pinching sorts can save money via premium, but I doubt most folks do in practice.

Even if they do, I suspect turbine is plenty happy to have your money up front instead of doled out slowly over months.

[Vormaerin]

The only issue I see with being VIP is that some classes / races are not available unless bought, this seems a bit much, why are they not like the WF class ?


Huh? There are no races or classes that are unavailable unless bought.

All the races (WF are a race, not a class) are automatic for VIPs except Drow. You need 1000 favor on a character to unlock those. You don't need money, though.

Monks and Druids are automatic for VIPs. Artificers and Favored Souls are unlocked by favor. The favor unlocks for those are quite a bit harder than for drow, but you still don't have to pay money unless you want to.

[Sleepsalot]

Drow are 400 favor

Favored Soul is 2500 Favor Arties are 150 House C favor so these are sort of out of reach for some at Low Levels

Sleeps :D :) :D


Huh? There are no races or classes that are unavailable unless bought.

All the races (WF are a race, not a class) are automatic for VIPs except Drow. You need 1000 favor on a character to unlock those. You don't need money, though.

Monks and Druids are automatic for VIPs. Artificers and Favored Souls are unlocked by favor. The favor unlocks for those are quite a bit harder than for drow, but you still don't have to pay money unless you want to.

[UltraMonk2]

The only issue I see with being VIP is that some classes / races are not available unless bought, this seems a bit much, why are they not like the WF class ?

Which race/class is not available to a VIP unless they purchase it?

If you are talking about Drow, Artificer and Favored Soul then you just have to accrue the right amount of favor to unlock them. The unlocking a race/class with favor was already in place before DDO became F2P, then it was that the Drow needs 400 total favor to unlock.

In the case of favor unlocking it only unlocks it on the server that you have gained the favor on. The DDO Store option gives you the ability to play it straightaway on all servers regardless of how much favor you have gained on a single server.

[Correlan]

All the races (WF are a race, not a class) are automatic for VIPs except Drow. You need 400 favor on a character to unlock those. You don't need money, though.



Fixed

[Vormaerin]

Fixed

yeah, yeah. I blame the stupid cold I have. :P

[Uma-Quixote]

Just to clarify Epic scrolls were not "removed" from the game it is a bug that the Devs know about and are working on.

That is the funniest thing I've read here since the last update.....how about adding the words "but with very little urgency" to your sentence?

[CR-Shadowborn]

That is the funniest thing I've read here since the last update.....how about adding the words "but with very little urgency" to your sentence?

Just figured that went without saying since for the 2+yrs i have played there hasn't been a lot of urgency to fix many bugs now has there?
Though i do think this one will get fixed sooner rather that letting it sit and fester.

[Berjik]

Just figured that went without saying since for the 2+yrs i have played there hasn't been a lot of urgency to fix many bugs now has there? Unless it benefited the player.
Though i do think this one will get fixed sooner rather that letting it sit and fester.

Lil fixin'

[Chai]

I don't mind when Turbine tries to make a profit. I like when they come up with interesting new things to sell that I find attractive.

I just don't like when I see things that look like a cheap, crass money grab that will fatten up their wallets in the short term while hurting the game in the long term.

Thankfully, I don't think that the Premium model will hurt the game in the long term, so the continual "encouragement" that Turbine gives to VIP players to switch to the Premium payment plan and away from the subscription model doesn't bother me.

The pay to win aspect always hurts MMOs in the longterm. If they advance the concept slow enough, each new incarnation doesnt appear that it will ruin the game by itself, which is why the masses for the most part defend things like being able to pay to remove 2 weeks worth of grind for instance.

When it all finally adds up over the years to becomming absurd is when it starts to hurt the game. The question is basically: How far can they go with it before it gets to the point where the majority draws the line. Advancing pay to win nice and slowly is the key. Games that are released as pay to win games dont go very far, but the paying masses will accept a large degree of it with specific conditions attached. They will also allow those conditions to be violated if its done slowly enough.

For the first year or so the majority of feedback was "as long as we can still earn it in game, they can sell it in the store". After a few years, we now find that "able to be earned in game" = put in a mechanic where an absurdly small percentage can earn it in game, and the rest will pay for it with real money. People will rules lawyer their willingness to participate in full on pay to win based on these hilarious technicalities, as long as we are eased into it slowly but surely, so that each new incarnation of it is only slightly more P2W than the last.

The only real question that needs to be answered is: How far can they take it? The answer is: As far as they want, if done correctly at a snails pace so the decay of the game into a P2W mechanism is never fully realized all at once.

[Thrudh]

That is the funniest thing I've read here since the last update.....how about adding the words "but with very little urgency" to your sentence?

Your comment is pretty funny too, since they just published release notes today for the next patch which contain the fix.

[Chai]

Your comment is pretty funny too, since they just published release notes today for the next patch which contain the fix.

Yeah they cant let that one go too long can they? Now that epics are accessible to alot more players they cant just sit on something that literally brings the majority of endgame gear acquisition to a grinding halt.

The MMOs that fix this kind of stuff alot faster have personel headcount that is many times what Turbine has on staff. They are caught in the game of prioritizing bugs like any other developer.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Care to elaborate how xp tomes will hurt the game? Guess it won't be through extra money earned that may be put into game development so...?

I don't think that XP tomes will directly hurt the game. I think that what hurts the game is when they decide to release XP tomes instead of fixing the rediculous XP situation for third and later lives.

If they fixed the rediculous XP situation for third and later lives AND released XP tomes, then I'd be all for that.

When I referred to "cheap, crass money grab that will fatten up their wallets in the short term while hurting the game in the long term," I was actually referring to things like +3 tomes in the DDO store without actually changing the real numbers of +3 tomes on the live servers (except by accident with an exploit) and also to things like the ill-fated offer wall.

[Algreg]

So you are not cool with having to pay for xp tomes now yet you were cool with having to pay for xp pots before?

not voicing my opinion for or against purchasable xp tomes, but xp pots are extremely easy to acquire in game.

[sheepface]

If you feel like vip isn't worth the money you are paying, then simply cancel it.

[zwiebelring]

Yes it is a money grab. They are a for profit business. What did we expect?
The sheer traditional trust transferred from us customers to some business men who offer something. The honesty of people, tangible persons and not the feeling of being trapped by a business concept in a hobby.

If I am called VIP I want to see this status be confirmed by those who tell me I am a VIP in every regard. This is not given. So don't call the Toastie the Schnitzel please.

[Hambo]

Huh? There are no races or classes that are unavailable unless bought.

All the races (WF are a race, not a class) are automatic for VIPs except Drow. You need 1000 favor on a character to unlock those. You don't need money, though.

Monks and Druids are automatic for VIPs. Artificers and Favored Souls are unlocked by favor. The favor unlocks for those are quite a bit harder than for drow, but you still don't have to pay money unless you want to.

Correction: 400 favor for Drow. Doable in an afternoon of moderate play.

[Chai]

The sheer traditional trust transferred from us customers to some business men who offer something. The honesty of people, tangible persons and not the feeling of being trapped by a business concept in a hobby.

If I am called VIP I want to see this status be confirmed by those who tell me I am a VIP in every regard. This is not given. So don't call the Toastie the Schnitzel please.

However, after being nailed 4 times, coming back for a 5th and being surprised the same thing happens again the same way is well, rather disappointing.

At some point observation skills have to kick in and tally up the times this has happened, then wisdom takes over, and we stop being surprised when the same afore mentioned thing keeps happening the same afore mentioned way.

Im not saying I have to like it, but I will say it doesnt surprise me anymore, after that sheer traditional trust transferred from us customers to some business men who offer something is violated multiple times, I continue to come back for more, and it continues to occur. The fact that people continue to act surprised years after the fact is the oddity here, as reduced VIP benefits have been the norm for a long period of time now.

[Halock]

I'll never understand pay to win comments in a game with no competition......

[Chai]

If you feel like vip isn't worth the money you are paying, then simply cancel it.

Then pay more money up front, to gain the same thing you paid into the system for, for ~6 years now.

Kind of odd, being told to reward them for not delivering on the marketed payment plan we chose in the first place.

My advice: Stay VIP for another year, then cancel. Do not spend ANY of the free points granted.

6000......12 months @ 500 per month.
3000......6 TRs @ 2000 favor earned per TR in that year @ 25 points per 100 favor
-------------------------------------------
9000 TP at the end of the year. You can buy just about whatever you want and go premium at no extra expense while still having the same features and packs you have now.

If you have around 10k points currently because you were smart and sat on your accruals and didnt spend your monthly reward on fluff, you can cancel now and buy all the features and packs back once youre premium.

Keep accruing through favor and NOT spending. This will allow you to buy extra packs when they come out.

[Imatotalnoob]

Well i was p2p for a while and only went vip at christmas for one reason and one reason only

To open Elite....

Watch out turbine, if you take that perk away from me, i'll drop u like a hot lump of steaming.......
u get the picture

[Chai]

I'll never understand pay to win comments in a game with no competition......

Thats because youre thinking too literally.

Pay to win is a term used to describe a situation where "winning" is defined as "having the advantage" - its not a finite term describing one victorious event.

The english language uses non literal slang terms all the time, so I dont see how people still dont understand the concept. When you say youre going to run to the store, are you actually running? When youre driving the speed limit and someone flys past you like youre not even moving, are they actually flying? When you beat someone in a video game and tell them you whooped their butt, did that actually literally happen? If we are going to act like only the literal definition applies, none of us would even understand the English language, rife with borrowed slang terms hundreds of years old, which have laterally evolved over the years to mean something quite different than the sum of their oxford dictionary definitions.

Pay to win is a situation where if two players are equally skilled, money is the deciding factor in who has the advantage.

Example of how P2W pertains to DDO: If we can farm enough shroud mats on one toon to make one double shard tier 3 item in roughly 20 runs, and the same person (eliminating all other variables) can buy most of those materials with real money and do it in 1-3 runs, they are participating in P2W.

[Halock]

[QUOTE=Chai;4364610]Thats because youre thinking too literally.

Pay to win is a term used to describe a situation where "winning" is defined as "having the advantage" - its not a finite term describing one victorious event.

Having the advantage in what?

Where is the competition?

[Halock]

Example of how P2W pertains to DDO: If we can farm enough shroud mats on one toon to make one double shard tier 3 item in roughly 20 runs, and the same person (eliminating all other variables) can buy most of those materials with real money and do it in 1-3 runs, they are participating in P2W.

That's not an advantage, that's equal ground

[Vormaerin]

People have the idea that entertainment media needs to reward time spent more than money spent, even though they are both currency.

Mainly because they are conflating the use of "game" as a competitive activity with 'game' as an entertainment activity.

DDO is an entertainment medium, not a competitive event.

It doesn't matter to my gameplay what anyone else can get or how they get it. Arguments about difficulty increasing to compensate are spurious, because those apply just as much to players who spend an excess of time in the game as those who spend an excess of money.

[KillEveryone]

I'm fine with XP tomes in the DDO store.

I have no problem at all with certain items being DDO store exclusive.

I don't have to buy one if I don't want one.

No one is forcing me to purchase anything.

I don't feel this is a money grab. It is a nice item that is DDO store exclusive and if you purchased the limited edition expansion, I'll have one on every character.

I don't mind purchasing the upgrade either. That is quite fine with me.

If they forced me to purchase something to level my character, then I would have a problem, but they don't so I'm quite happy with them being in the store.

They have to make money some how. This is a convience item that I can purchase and make my leveling more convient or I don't have to and can do the TR grind the old fashioned way.

[Chai]

That's not an advantage, that's equal ground

No, it is not. It allows someone who is willing to pay money to have more decked out toons in less time, that is advantage when playing a game where 90% of all ingredients are either trade-able or BTA. And that advantage self perpetuates from then on in. While the person who was NOT willing to pay to win is still bringing up and shroud level gearing their toons, the person who was willing to pay to win has been in tougher raids and epics 75% of that time.


Where is the competition?

Again you are defining in the literal sense, grasping at a technicality, which the English language, a language comprised of borrowed words that have evolved well beyond the literal for over a thousand years, does not favor.

This is a PVE game. Advantage gained by participating in P2W is the ability to acquire gear far more quickly with much less effort in doing so, all for shelling out RL money.

[Vormaerin]

This is a PVE game. Advantage gained by participating in P2W is the ability to acquire gear far more quickly with much less effort in doing so, all for shelling out RL money.

And how does this matter at all? What difference does it make whether you have boatloads more time than I do or boatloads more money? Its the same thing.

Either way, it makes no difference to me whether someone else has better gear or is a completionist or whatever. Its still me vs the monsters and they generally don't change just because someone else bought an exp booster.

[Elation]

First time I think I've 100% agreed with you Chai!

Finally got rid of my VIP yesterday. Every time I read the screen that says "get the all access pass to DDO" I think that is blatant false advertising. Did a little research and I really can't think of worse examples, but I am sure they are out there.

Again, with artificers being buy it only and now expansions the same way...you are stuck either investing the $140 bucks to get the CE and the 11k points to more or less buy the game OR get some kid to sell you the exp pack and the point code he got from his mama's credit card for your in game items...

I will not be downgrading because well i dont want to. Artificers are not buy it only. They where buy it only due to lack of content when released though. You can get them through the favor for canith method now if you so choose.

That being said there should be no classes or races that VIP should not get immediate access too.

[Vormaerin]

[QUOTE=Elation;4365416
That being said there should be no classes or races that VIP should not get immediate access too.[/QUOTE]

Why? There were favor reward only races before there was ever a premium option. Its not a new thing done to downgrade VIP. It was an element of VIP the day VIP came into existance.

[Elation]

I don't think that XP tomes will directly hurt the game. I think that what hurts the game is when they decide to release XP tomes instead of fixing the rediculous XP situation for third and later lives.

If they fixed the rediculous XP situation for third and later lives AND released XP tomes, then I'd be all for that.

When I referred to "cheap, crass money grab that will fatten up their wallets in the short term while hurting the game in the long term," I was actually referring to things like +3 tomes in the DDO store without actually changing the real numbers of +3 tomes on the live servers (except by accident with an exploit) and also to things like the ill-fated offer wall.

What is the rediculous xp situation?

[Elation]

Why? There were favor reward only races before there was ever a premium option. Its not a new thing done to downgrade VIP. It was an element of VIP the day VIP came into existance.

Since they changed the model of the game why not keep Vips with atleast some stuff. Would it hurt to let those paying subscriptions automatically get those races and classes?

[HungarianRhapsody]

What is the rediculous xp situation?

The hyper-inflated XP requirement at the late levels that ends up with a quarter of the 4 million total XP needed to cap being needed just to take you from 18 to 20.

[Elation]

The hyper-inflated XP requirement at the late levels that ends up with a quarter of the 4 million total XP needed to cap being needed just to take you from 18 to 20.

I could agree with ya accept there is such an abundance of XP in this game that capping even 3rd life more charactors can happen skipping a good prtion of the content.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I could agree with ya accept there is such an abundance of XP in this game that capping even 3rd life more charactors can happen skipping a good prtion of the content.

When you skip 50% of the low and mid level content and watch your leveling speed suddenly fall off a cliff, I think that's a problem.

There is even an easy fix to that problem that wouldn't reduce the total amount of XP needed to cap - just redistribute the XP required so that every level has the same % increase instead of just 10% increase at level 1 and 190% increase at level 19.


...but if doing that might cause some people to skip buying an XP tome, then there's about 0% chance of that happening.

[Elation]

When you skip 50% of the low and mid level content and watch your leveling speed suddenly fall off a cliff, I think that's a problem.

There is even an easy fix to that problem that wouldn't reduce the total amount of XP needed to cap - just redistribute the XP required so that every level has the same % increase instead of just 10% increase at level 1 and 190% increase at level 19.


...but if doing that might cause some people to skip buying an XP tome, then there's about 0% chance of that happening.

Since people including me have been tring multiple times before the xp tomes came out do not think its an issue. There is a bit of a climb but there is also an increase in the amount of xp you can get per quest. You can still skip half the end game content and cap. So seems pretty even.

[MaximumCharisma]

Then pay more money up front, to gain the same thing you paid into the system for, for ~6 years now.

Kind of odd, being told to reward them for not delivering on the marketed payment plan we chose in the first place.

My advice: Stay VIP for another year, then cancel. Do not spend ANY of the free points granted.

6000......12 months @ 500 per month.
3000......6 TRs @ 2000 favor earned per TR in that year @ 25 points per 100 favor
-------------------------------------------
9000 TP at the end of the year. You can buy just about whatever you want and go premium at no extra expense while still having the same features and packs you have now.

If you have around 10k points currently because you were smart and sat on your accruals and didnt spend your monthly reward on fluff, you can cancel now and buy all the features and packs back once youre premium.

Keep accruing through favor and NOT spending. This will allow you to buy extra packs when they come out.

I'm not convinced...

First: There is way more content available right now to add up to 9k. You would be certain to choose between much of it. 10k points just doesn't buy the game like it might have before. In one year from now, who knows...

Second: Every VIP is being forced to buy the new content. No question about it. This along with the arti is a trend. Maybe they will let us buy it with TP, in which case see the first example.

So what to do? Take advantage of the deal currently available. $140 bucks buys the exp pack, along with several adventure packs. The tomes are an obvious cash grab incorporated in this deal, but many VIP's would be wanting these anyway. With the deal you have VON, Fens, Sentinals, Devil Assault pack. Also, Phiarlain Carnival, Attack on Stormreach, and Dreaming Dark + Path of inspiration.

That leaves you with 13k points + whatever you saved/bought before as a VIP. And you choose the content you want. For instance I didn't buy STK but did buy Titan raid. I still have 11k points left over because I had points before...

One final note...I personally am happy with my switch, but I was happier as a VIP. If it wasn't for what I consider a trend of cash grabbing from VIP's (ie must buy EXP pack, must grind a seemingly impossible amount of challenges for arti) I would have stayed VIP. You need to remember that you now as a premium must buy char slots over 4, races, the first shared bank (i think) and also a ton of adventure packs that seems to be growing every day. And you don't have the 500 points influx every month.

Hopefully, this cash grab brings new content, lag/server connection fixes and bug fixes. This has to be the best quarter ddo ever had...

[Elation]

No, it is not. It allows someone who is willing to pay money to have more decked out toons in less time, that is advantage when playing a game where 90% of all ingredients are either trade-able or BTA. And that advantage self perpetuates from then on in. While the person who was NOT willing to pay to win is still bringing up and shroud level gearing their toons, the person who was willing to pay to win has been in tougher raids and epics 75% of that time.



Again you are defining in the literal sense, grasping at a technicality, which the English language, a language comprised of borrowed words that have evolved well beyond the literal for over a thousand years, does not favor.

This is a PVE game. Advantage gained by participating in P2W is the ability to acquire gear far more quickly with much less effort in doing so, all for shelling out RL money.

Your analogy only works if you are putting competition into, your toon is better then my toon. This is a game primarily focused on my toon can kill that monster, or jump that pedestal. Its not a matter of literal or not its what your saying. Also since your trying to say the language is subjective that applies to you also there for what your saying may or may not mean the same thing to different people. Your version of play to win may or may not be correct depending on who you are talking to. It's subjective.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Since people including me have been tring multiple times before the xp tomes came out do not think its an issue. There is a bit of a climb but there is also an increase in the amount of xp you can get per quest. You can still skip half the end game content and cap. So seems pretty even.

People have been TRing multiple times before the XP tomes came out, but that doesn't mean this isn't an issue. The fact that people managed to overcome that issue doesn't mean the issue doesn't exist.

I just think it's tremendously silly that you can go from level 1 to 10 in half the time that it takes to go from 18 to 20.

[In_Like_Flynn]

None of this is about being VIP, it's about feeling entitled.

[Elation]

That seems to be about the same power curve for a normal life.

Hmm mayve im on the minority but i do not feel its a problem. Seems to me you should take a bit longer to get the last few levels then to get the first couple.

[Elation]

None of this is about being VIP, it's about feeling entitled.

OK i am usually on that side of the fence, but here it goes "entitled" what is the defination of VIP to you then?

[In_Like_Flynn]

OK i am usually on that side of the fence, but here it goes "entitled" what is the defination of VIP to you then?
Being VIP is not about price or feature comparisons (http://www.ddo.com/vip). Neither of those has anything to do with value. Being VIP is about value.

If one does not see the value of VIP, he or she is likely not part of the target market segment.

[HungarianRhapsody]

OK i am usually on that side of the fence, but here it goes "entitled" what is the defination of VIP to you then?

I think that a lot of VIP subscribers think that it's supposed to stand for "Most Important Person" rather than "Very Important Person".

[Halock]

No, it is not. It allows someone who is willing to pay money to have more decked out toons in less time, that is advantage when playing a game where 90% of all ingredients are either trade-able or BTA. And that advantage self perpetuates from then on in. While the person who was NOT willing to pay to win is still bringing up and shroud level gearing their toons, the person who was willing to pay to win has been in tougher raids and epics 75% of that time.

Again you are defining in the literal sense, grasping at a technicality, which the English language, a language comprised of borrowed words that have evolved well beyond the literal for over a thousand years, does not favor.

This is a PVE game. Advantage gained by participating in P2W is the ability to acquire gear far more quickly with much less effort in doing so, all for shelling out RL money.

Hope you read the other 2 guys comments about this as well


You still fail to explain how another characters gear affects you, and how that affects your character.

If there is no competition, there is no losers, or winners, hence P2W cries are silly

[HungarianRhapsody]

Hope you read the other 2 guys comments about this as well


You still fail to explain how another characters gear affects you, and how that affects your character.

If there is no competition, there is no losers, or winners, hence P2W cries are silly

Are you actually going to say that there is no competition in DDO?

[Halock]

Are you actually going to say that there is no competition in DDO?

Are you actually going to say there is competition in DDO?

[HungarianRhapsody]

Are you actually going to say there is competition in DDO?

Absoultely. And I'm not talking about PvP in the taverns or on the AH.

Why do you think people go through 3 Monk lives? Why do you think people go through 3 FvS lives even after they've already done 3 Wizard lives? Why do you think people run ToD 100+ times in order to get the "right" ring when they got an "almost right" ring on run 6?

It's because they're competing to have the biggest e-peen.

Maybe that's a competition that you don't care about or participate in, but don't try to pretend that it doesn't exist. That competition is more than half of the end game in DDO.

[Halock]

Absoultely. And I'm not talking about PvP in the taverns or on the AH.

Why do you think people go through 3 Monk lives? Why do you think people go through 3 FvS lives even after they've already done 3 Wizard lives? Why do you think people run ToD 100+ times in order to get the "right" ring when they got an "almost right" ring on run 6?

It's because they're competing to have the biggest e-peen.

Maybe that's a competition that you don't care about or participate in, but don't try to pretend that it doesn't exist. That competition is more than half of the end game in DDO.

All of those things can be answered with - To make their character stronger


There is no E-peen stat in game that i am aware of, please show it too me

When did turbine implement this e-peen competition......what rewards does that bring when you win?

[Chai]

None of this is about being VIP, it's about feeling entitled.

Its about being lead to that entitlement by the way VIP is marketed, only to find out later that the level of entitlement that was being advertised -vs- what is being provided are two different things.

Repeatedly.

[Chai]

Hope you read the other 2 guys comments about this as well


You still fail to explain how another characters gear affects you, and how that affects your character.

If there is no competition, there is no losers, or winners, hence P2W cries are silly

It doesnt need to affect me in order to be P2W.

Again you banter the literal definition of each word in the term equals the definition of the term itself. This has not been the case in the English language for thousands of years now. Pay to win is a term thats been used since the 40s to describe situations where people have equal opportunity, and money becomes the deciding factor in who has advantage. This is not a term that just appeared in the last few years in the video game era, and thus is not solely subject to your definition. Competition is not required in the definition. It may be how you define your satisfaction with the game and the state of being able to purchase your way through 75% of any learning curve whatsoever, but the definition of P2W has been clear now for ~70 years.

The fact that you are perfectly willing to accept pay to win being inserted into the game regularly doesnt make it not pay to win. I find alot of people dislike the term, but dont mind participating in the state the term describes and defines, so they are in denial that the term means anything more than the sum of the literal definitions of its words combined.

[eonfreon]

All of those things can be answered with - To make their character stronger


There is no E-peen stat in game that i am aware of, please show it too me

When did turbine implement this e-peen competition......what rewards does that bring when you win?

The reward is the ability to whine and moan every time someone has it "easier" than you did back in the day walking through snow uphill both ways.

Not a great reward but it's there anyway.

Personally I could not care less how someone acquired their "items".

However, even I can see potential problems for P2W or "Pay to Skip Parts or Do Things Easier than Those Who Don't Pay".

For one, if it becomes a truly lucrative cash cow, then I can see certain aspects of the game being made even grindier, to encourage people to lose patience and just fork over some cash.

So I think it's a fine line that Turbine must tread. Look at Mana Pots for instance. I'm sure the initial design wasn't for mana Pots to be so prevalent, but once it was put in the store and proved to be a money maker, do you think any Dev would dare try to change it?

P2W for me is shorthand for the possibility of a business designing content around a business model of creating excessive inconveniences in-game that one can pay to circumvent.

It hasn't quite gotten there, although it is close in some instances. And for most of us it probably won't. Simply because most folks currently would rather play the game to get the rewards then spend money on it. And I have no problem with folks who want to spend money to shorten some of the grind. But I don't want Turbine designing content around the assumption that people will spend money to alleviate a grind.

I enjoy playing the game, although far less now than I used to, but if it ever becomes truly P2W in the way I've outlined it, I'll quit completely before I give Turbine a penny to fund that kind of game.

[Chai]

P2W for me is shorthand for the possibility of a business designing content around a business model of creating excessive inconveniences in-game that one can pay to circumvent.

It hasn't quite gotten there, although it is close in some instances. And for most of us it probably won't.

Oh but it has already gotten there. They just did it masterfully enough and slowly enough where people dont even realize it, and in fact embrace it.

Observe:

Step one.

Arbitrarily require far more XP to level than it took for first life, to make a toon slightly more powerful than it was past life. Multiple lives added up can make a toon significantly more powerful. This creates an insane grind situation where people take a long time to refine one toon to perfection.

1st life toon takes 1.9M XP to cap.
2nd life toon takes 3,139,250 xp to cap.
3rd life toon takes 4,378,500 xp to cap.
All additional lives take 4,378,500 xp to cap.

Why does it take more XP to level? Because Turbine arbitrarily determined this through their own math formula: http://ddowiki.com/page/Experience_points_after_Reincarnation(s)

English to English translation: For no other reason because they said so.

Step two.

Flood the store with different methods of gaining bonuses to XP, which all stack. Players have the opportunity to pay real money to offset the arbitrarily increased XP requirement.

Step three.

?????

Step four.

Profit. :p

Genius pay to win marketing strategy. Everyone with a TR is jumping at the opportunity to get their hands on XP tomes to lessen the grind.

Now, they could have just made every life 1.9M XP and never put any XP pots or XP tomes in the store, which makes perfect sense from a gameplay standpoint, but makes no sense from a marketing standpoint. Instead, arbitrarily raise the amount of XP required to more than double, then give the grinders a taste of what a real grind to cap level feels like for a while, and when they start complaining about it.... offer stacking pay to win mechanics which offset the arbitrary new requirement, thus lessening the grind.

Money in the bank.

[Halock]

It doesnt need to affect me in order to be P2W.

Again you banter the literal definition of each word in the term equals the definition of the term itself. This has not been the case in the English language for thousands of years now. Pay to win is a term thats been used since the 40s to describe situations where people have equal opportunity, and money becomes the deciding factor in who has advantage. This is not a term that just appeared in the last few years in the video game era, and thus is not solely subject to your definition. Competition is not required in the definition. It may be how you define your satisfaction with the game and the state of being able to purchase your way through 75% of any learning curve whatsoever, but the definition of P2W has been clear now for ~70 years.

The fact that you are perfectly willing to accept pay to win being inserted into the game regularly doesnt make it not pay to win. I find alot of people dislike the term, but dont mind participating in the state the term describes and defines, so they are in denial that the term means anything more than the sum of the literal definitions of its words combined.

What advantage do they have? They can save time and grind to get 'equal' gear, not a gear advantage

Even if they could buy better gear, how does that affect you?

You constantly skip over these points, how does paying to get equal affect you?

In all your examples you describe a situation where player (A) has x gear and player (B) buys x gear skipping the grind, so now player (B) has an advantage
If they are not competing against each other,what advantage does player ( B ) have?

You are the one comparing them in a competitive manner and yet saying they are not in competition with one another

and my point is, if they are not in competition with one another, what does it matter how they got their gear or how strong it is

and if they ARE in competition with one another, please enlighten me as to what the prize is and how they go about winning

[Halock]

@eonfreon - Aye, when they make it so i HAVE to pay to play the game, i'll quit as well, but their a very far way from it really, trust me, i've seen alot of F2p games get it wrong and left them behind

As to chai's post under that, they did not increase the xp at all, it is still 1.9M

There are optional .....'optional' routes to gain more power for your character that need more xp ( alot more ), and the methods to lessen the pain are also optional

Many people do not even partake in that aspect of the game, they craft alts for fun and run them up and re-roll to make new ones to try new builds

As to VIP's getting screwed, Me and quite a few others said this would happen years ago when things switched over, we got neg rep'd like crazy for pointing out how poor the VIP option was then and how much worse it would become in a few months

[Chai]

What advantage do they have? They can save time and grind to get 'equal' gear, not a gear advantage

Incorrect. In equal amount of time they can have better gear - thats the advantage.


Even if they could buy better gear, how does that affect you?

You constantly skip over these points, how does paying to get equal affect you?

I actually answered this question perfectly. It doesnt need to affect me in order to be pay to win. And paahhleeez, its not paying to get equal. If someone can have 10 decked out toons in the time it takes someone who doesnt pay to deck three toons out, thats not equal. They are paying for advantage.


In all your examples you describe a situation where player (A) has x gear and player (B) buys x gear skipping the grind, so now player (B) has an advantage
If they are not competing against each other,what advantage does player ( B ) have?

Again you continually insinuate that the definition requires competition. It does NOT require competition.

Eonfreeon defined it perfectly. Turbine has the ability now to market specific situations that require excessive grind, then SELL methods to reduce that grind. I outlined one case scenario above which is already in the game.


You are the one comparing them in a competitive manner and yet saying they are not in competition with one another

and my point is, if they are not in competition with one another, what does it matter how they got their gear or how strong it is

and if they ARE in competition with one another, please enlighten me as to what the prize is and how they go about winning

Again. Pay to Win definition does NOT require competition to be defined as such.

If player A pays into the system to have an item in 9 days (3 runs) and player B refuses to pay into the system to lessen the grind, in 9 days they dont have the item that player A has. Youre telling me theres no advantage gained there? ROFL

[karsion]

Hope you read the other 2 guys comments about this as well


You still fail to explain how another characters gear affects you, and how that affects your character.

If there is no competition, there is no losers, or winners, hence P2W cries are silly

Couldn't agree more with that. I can't understand why, except out of jealousy, are the people bothered by the fact that others will have better gear or level quicker or whatever because they have paid for it. It's not pay to win cause there is no winning, there is no competition in DDO, except in people's minds. There is no special reward for completing EDQ solo or finishing 3+ TR in 3 days or less.

[nickzed]

Premium customers bring them in more money than VIP, for the most part. Catering to the people who pay you more money is a good business model.

They really just need to re-name VIP to something else. I'm VIP but I do it for a few select reasons, and I'll go back to premium eventually. I still pre-ordered the CE.

[Halock]

Snip

No, you outlined an optional grind, not a required one. When they put in required grinds that you have to pay to overcome, then your point will be valid, not till then.


If player A pays into the system to have an item in 9 days (3 runs) and player B refuses to pay into the system to lessen the grind, in 9 days they dont have the item that player A has. Youre telling me theres no advantage gained there? ROFL

Explain to me, for the 5th or so time, what affect another players gear has on your character? It has none, therefore, there is no advantage gained

[Jsbeer]

Explain to me, for the 5th or so time, what affect another players gear has on your character? It has none, therefore, there is no advantage gained


This would be true if certain raids didn't have people MYDDOing you......
Whether we like it or not the quality of your gear DOES have an effect even in a PvE environment....

[eonfreon]

Oh but it has already gotten there. They just did it masterfully enough and slowly enough where people dont even realize it, and in fact embrace it.

Observe:

Step one.

Arbitrarily require far more XP to level than it took for first life, to make a toon slightly more powerful than it was past life. Multiple lives added up can make a toon significantly more powerful. This creates an insane grind situation where people take a long time to refine one toon to perfection.

1st life toon takes 1.9M XP to cap.
2nd life toon takes 3,139,250 xp to cap.
3rd life toon takes 4,378,500 xp to cap.
All additional lives take 4,378,500 xp to cap.

Why does it take more XP to level? Because Turbine arbitrarily determined this through their own math formula: http://ddowiki.com/page/Experience_points_after_Reincarnation(s)

English to English translation: For no other reason because they said so.

Well, I doubt people really embrace it so much as accept it, but it is a good point and illustration of an aspect of P2W. It is to me a lesser form of P2W, but I do think it is legitimate to think that way.

But first of all; "for no other reason because they said so" is pretty much the right of any game maker as far as I can see. You're right that it's arbitrary in that they are arbiters of the game rules. They decide the rules and we decide if we wish to play under those rules. If we don't, we don't play. Or at least not that aspect of the game.

Personally, I don't care for TRing. Therefore I don't do it. It is there for those who want to refine a character to perfection. I've done pretty good with just First Lifers. Without doubt someone who's done multiple TRs and has as much gear and game experience as I do will have an edge. Few TRs do have that "edge" over me however, unless they are one of the ones who have as much gear and game experience as I do as well.

TRing isn't a necessity, it's rather closer to a luxury; an edge one can acquire to make gaming "easier". However, the game is not yet set up so that a TR is required to accomplish a goal or complete a quest (unless the goal is Completionist; but that's why there's the tongue-in-cheek description of acquiring Completionist and "winning in DDO"). Could it be easier with a TR? Sure, of course, depends on the person though and exactly why they need it to be easier in the first place.


Step two.

Flood the store with different methods of gaining bonuses to XP, which all stack. Players have the opportunity to pay real money to offset the arbitrarily increased XP requirement.

Yes, the part that bulked me was the XP penalty. It does seem unnecessary. But it is what it is. Likely to slow down gamers so that those at endgame would keep playing until more content was made.

But yes, it is a grind that can be largely alleviated by spending money if one desires. But to me it doesn't rise to P2W because content is not yet designed where it is mandatory that you TR at all. Thus TRing is a choice.

If two people decide to TR and one gets XP pots and stuff from the store, his edge is that he gets to play endgame stuff or TR yet again that much earlier than the one who doesn't use XP pots from the store. That's a rather relative edge, because it assumes that it matters which TR levels faster.
Can XP pots be found in-game? That would at least offset some of the cost.


Step three.

?????

Step four.

Profit. :p

Genius pay to win marketing strategy. Everyone with a TR is jumping at the opportunity to get their hands on XP tomes to lessen the grind.

Now, they could have just made every life 1.9M XP and never put any XP pots or XP tomes in the store, which makes perfect sense from a gameplay standpoint, but makes no sense from a marketing standpoint. Instead, arbitrarily raise the amount of XP required to more than double, then give the grinders a taste of what a real grind to cap level feels like for a while, and when they start complaining about it.... offer stacking pay to win mechanics which offset the arbitrary new requirement, thus lessening the grind.

Money in the bank.

Yes, what seems to be an excessive grind is what kept me from participating much in TRing. Just too boring, plus the loss of Tomes before was also a deal breaker for me. But I have seen that guides are written about how to level up a TR efficiently and such, making the XP boosts rather unnecessary, and even more of a convenience item. Granted if you're on a multiple TR and worse yet going through a character class you don't enjoy much, then the boredom may make it seem mandatory, but it really isn't.

The only real issue I see is that Turbine was rather murky in outlining how the business model would be. They inferred promises they really had to have known they couldn't keep. Their promise was that, in the move to a F2P and DDOStore Marketing tier to the game, VIPs were going to be an extension of the "subscription plan" we had paid for to play the game.

A game that had been marketed to us as "grind-free" and that all updates were "free" which included new content, classes and races. But they only whispered the "fine print". The fine print was that DDO:EU was a under a new contract and not beholden to the promises of the old DDO:StormReach game. So there were no more guarantees of free updates, especially of new races and classes, with a paid subscription. I saw it right away with the FvS. But once again not necessary to have it to play the game.

Turbine really should have just flat out just said so.. But I suppose a lie by ommission is better in the marketing world than honesty. Honesty has costs.

So what happens is that VIPs who pay a monthly fee still do have expectations. They pay a monthly fee to guarantee near seemless access to the game and understand that they have to pay extra for some things to help defray some development costs. Although the whole Artificer fiasco could have been dealt with so much better- communication is the key and Turbine's gotten better, but that's mostly because they sucked so bad at communication for so long that anything is better. But at least Artificer's have a real cost in design and art and programming. How much development "cost" can an XP booster really have?

But all this is still a bit from P2W, even in the way I outlined it. Because there are more ways to accomplish the goals. XP boosts are not a necessity unless you deem it so. And high end gear is still largely unavailable in the Store. I do see some stuff making headway into the Store, but in my eyes they are things that should be in the store, and are rather harmless.

If you were in a real race with someone to TR as fast as possible, then yes, you would lose if you didn't want to spend the TP to get Xp boosts and the other person did. But you're not pitted against someone in a race to the Completionist or Perfectly Refined Toon. The only one you're racing against is yourself; how fast do you want to level and how much do you enjoy it?

[eonfreon]

Incorrect. In equal amount of time they can have better gear - thats the advantage.


I agree that P2W is broader than simply "winning". But in this scenario you describe it's rather relative. Because the point of the game may or may not be to acquire X gear in Y time, depending on the individual. And the advantage is relative too.

I don't play solely to acquire gear. That's just an aspect of the game. It is not the sole reason for playing the game. Since I don't really care when I will acquire X gear (so long as it isn't unreasonable) I don't see someone paying real money to acquire better gear in an equal amount of time as an advantage to them. They may think so, but I don't.

I'll have equal gear eventually by playing the game and will have spent less money to acquire it. And hopefully I'm enjoying myself as I play the game. Since someone wanted the gear so much that they're willing to spend real money on it, it actually benefits me, as they pay extra to help further develop the game I play. Seems to me the advantage is in my court, to my playstyle anyway.

If one is obsessed with getting everything as fast as possible then I can see the distaste when someone else beats them to the punch in such an "unfair" manner. But that's on them and their ego. They don't get to tell me that it ruins the game, simply because it ruined the game for them.

What of someone who's in a Guild and someone who isn't? Is it a fair advantage that someone is socially oriented and thus has friends help them acquire the gear and ingredients they need and someone else isn't and plays primarily alone or in PUGS with strangers and gets little if any help thus acquires gear much slower? Where is the fairness line?

But this gear scenario is moot anyway as it doesn't yet fully exist. I do agree that some of the new content, such as crafting, does skirt it as you can buy advantages. But the advantages are minor enough that one is really just buying convenience. The player that doesn't spend the money still has options. It all really depends on what is important to each individual. I do find some of the grinds to be excessive, but some of those grinds existed long before F2P and the DDOStore existed. It's all a matter of perspective and MMOs have to create timesinks to keep people at least interested in logging on. I don't think Turbine is yet trying to fleece their customers intentionally. It's a balancing act. And a tough one. That's why the game's grind changes as the Devs monkey around behind the scenes trying to keep our interest and alienate as few players as possible.

The P2W scenario you outlined about TRs has quite a bit of merit. But as it isn't the only game in town, it still falls short of P2W. But I do think you're mostly right. I simply don't get worried about it because I chose not to participate and there are enough other things to do that I really didn't have to. I tried it, got bored, petered out, and haven't tried to get back to it since. My enjoyment of the game has little to do with how long a TR takes to level and refine his character.

As to the OP's issue; I do agree that it does seem excesssive to package such a nice "advantage" in an additional cost. All I care about is getting the most Basic Package, but I can see why it would stick in a VIP's craw to have to pay for the most expensive package to acuire the most desired items to you, when you already pay a monthly subscription fee.

[zwiebelring]

I like the mentality of spending your earned money on whatever you want whenever you want. If that is something others see as p2w...well I give tiny rats ass and buy again 100 major pots or Tomes if I want to.