Chances of Obtaining a Torc: A Simple Calculation

[bhgiant]

Sought after by SP bar users across Eberron, the elusive Torc of Prince Raiyum-de II (http://ddowiki.com/page/Torc_of_Prince_Raiyum-de_II) has eluded even the most persistent of caster for ages. What demon of loot generation and probability has befallen this item. What curse has been cast that requires the destruction of a 6 armed snake over and over and over again in order to obtain it?

The answer isn't complicated. Below I endeavor to illuminate at least some of the reason why.

*please feel free to laugh at my math and point out my mistakes*

Assumptions


The raid is completed on Elite
You are pugging or are in a situation where there is no preference for loot passing except for the roll system
There are 8 melee, 4 casters. All the casters will take the Torc if they pull it and roll on the Torc if one is put up for roll. All the melee put it up for roll.



The chance to get raid loot... [is] 1/4 on elite.
According to the above post, there is a 1/4 chance that someone will pull a named item from the chest in Zawabi's Revenge. There are 16 named items that can be pulled.
1/4 *1/16 = 1/64 chance for someone to pull a torc on an Elite run
Assumption #2 being accounted for, there are 8 melee that will put it up for roll if pulled. You will then have an equal chance against 4 other SP users to win that roll.
1/64 * 8 = 1/8 chance a torc is pulled and will be put up for roll by a melee
1/8 * 1/4 = 1/32 that you will win the roll
So your (simplified) chance of getting a torc on an Elite run is your pull chance + chance of winning a roll
1/64 + 1/32 = 3/64 ~ 4.7% chance of obtaining a Torc in a run
4.7% is almost 5%. Well, hey, that means that if I run the raid 20 times I am sure to get a Torc!! 5%*20 is 100% right?? Wrong. Your chance of getting a Torc remains the same for each run, 4.7%. To find your chances of repeated attempts, you multiply your chances of not getting the Torc by the number of attempts you've made.
61/64 = 95.3% chance of not getting the Torc
(61/64)^20 = 38.3% chance of not getting the Torc in 20 runs
So you see, your chance of getting a Torc is 61.7% (100–38.3%), not very good.

But wait!! There's the 20th completion end reward list!! The list is populated with 10 non-duplicating unique items.
10/16 = chance of pulling a Torc on the 20th completion end reward list ~ 62.5%
So lets make that addition to our probability. Again, we multiply the chance that we won't pull the Torc.
(61/64)^20 * 6/16 = 14.4% chance you will not pull a Torc after the end reward list
So there you go. you are 85.6% likely to pull a Torc in 20 runs if you run it on elite, there are only 4 casters in the group, and there are no idiot melees who think they are going to TR into a caster. Since it IS such a sought after item however, these numbers may not be accurate...

Happy hunting :D

[wax_on_wax_off]

The torc is a significant reason for posting this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=363134) thread. If you are denied the possibility to roll on the torc and can't afford to bid on it then your chances of pulling it are significantly reduced.

Then it's worth considering that if selling of bound loot was acceptable then I'd have no incentive to even post an LFM for my DQ groups (solo elite was possible before torc on my PM but usually have a guildy or two along to help odds) which would mean less opportunity for people who can't solo and prefer not to post an LFM to ever see a torc.

[Xyfiel]

Not all raid loot has the same drop %, nor is all raids 1/4 on elite.

[GotSomeQuestions]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=326299 has the exact chances. In elite DQ, each player has a 20% chance of getting a raid loot item, and a further 6% chance that said item is the Torc. So, a 1.5% chance of pulling it yourself each time you step into the raid.

Also, I typically see more casters than melees in DQ groups, and I rarely see Torc go up for roll outside of epic.

[pleistocene]

so what if 1 out of the 8 melee were to get the sorc and not put it up for roll and instead take it without people noticing it until somebody scrolls up the chat and start raging at you and say why you didn't put it up to roll, and tell them that youa re going to TR into a caster?

what are the loot %'s of that? Because I happen to be an "Idiot" that did that on monk which is now tr'd into a sorc.

[Havok.cry]

56 runs no torc gave up and TRd wizard. Will never run DQ again.

[CanuckWisdom]

^ or, you know, the paladin, ranger or bard. They don't count as the 'four' casters do they?

[sirgog]

^ or, you know, the paladin, ranger or bard. They don't count as the 'four' casters do they?

Exactly - Torc is best-in-slot for all of those classes.

That said, the majority of characters get it within 20 runs. However with how randomness works, a sizeable minority do not get it in 20 or even in 40.

[knightgf]

Is it 'really' that good to pull such a risky item anyways? When you think about it:

It takes up a necklace slot, which means you'll have to be a twitch switcher if you want to use ToD sets or other necklace accessaries.
While the greater spell penetration is ok, it quickly gets outleveled.
You have to be dealt damage before the chance to proc works. That means a hit of zero won't trigger it, but a hit of 1 or more will.
There's a small chance of 15 SP per hit. 15 SP is all. No excuse to just go it with your SP bar, it's not reliable. It might be ok if you have some form of low or non-sp healing(pots, heal scrolls, wands, pale master healing, exc.), but otherwise, I wouldn't rely on it.
Doesn't matter if I have a caster or not, I wouldn't bother with this item unless nobody wanted it, and even then, its probably going to end up wasting space in my inventory or bank.

*Wears ToD necklace for set*

"Uh oh, im running outta Sp, gotta switch to my necklace..."

*Swaps for necklace but dies due to con decreasing*

"FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU..."

[Jaid314]

Is it 'really' that good to pull such a risky item anyways? When you think about it:

It takes up a necklace slot, which means you'll have to be a twitch switcher if you want to use ToD sets or other necklace accessaries.
While the greater spell penetration is ok, it quickly gets outleveled.
You have to be dealt damage before the chance to proc works. That means a hit of zero won't trigger it, but a hit of 1 or more will.
There's a small chance of 15 SP per hit. 15 SP is all. No excuse to just go it with your SP bar, it's not reliable. It might be ok if you have some form of low or non-sp healing(pots, heal scrolls, wands, pale master healing, exc.), but otherwise, I wouldn't rely on it.
Doesn't matter if I have a caster or not, I wouldn't bother with this item unless nobody wanted it, and even then, its probably going to end up wasting space in my inventory or bank.

*Wears ToD necklace for set*

"Uh oh, im running outta Sp, gotta switch to my necklace..."

*Swaps for necklace but dies due to con decreasing*

"FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU..."

obviously you need to learn more about damage mitigation. also, it's more than 15 SP per hit, and it's a 10% chance each time you get hit. that may not sound like much, but in the right circumstances (which can fairly easily be set up), it is a *huge* bonus to SP.

[Tomalon]

you forgot to factor in the ppl that wont put it up for a roll cuz "they need 2 torcs!!". One to epic and one to leave at lvl so they can TR.:eek:

[bhgiant]

Not all raid loot has the same drop %, nor is all raids 1/4 on elite.

Please click on the link.


so what if 1 out of the 8 melee were to get the sorc and not put it up for roll and instead take it without people noticing it until somebody scrolls up the chat and start raging at you and say why you didn't put it up to roll, and tell them that youa re going to TR into a caster?

what are the loot %'s of that? Because I happen to be an "Idiot" that did that on monk which is now tr'd into a sorc.

I would say you are 1/100 my friend. I'm sure the people in that raid would be happy to hear it didn't sit in a bank for the rest of its life.

[sirgog]

Is it 'really' that good to pull such a risky item anyways? When you think about it:

It takes up a necklace slot, which means you'll have to be a twitch switcher if you want to use ToD sets or other necklace accessaries.
While the greater spell penetration is ok, it quickly gets outleveled.
You have to be dealt damage before the chance to proc works. That means a hit of zero won't trigger it, but a hit of 1 or more will.
There's a small chance of 15 SP per hit. 15 SP is all. No excuse to just go it with your SP bar, it's not reliable. It might be ok if you have some form of low or non-sp healing(pots, heal scrolls, wands, pale master healing, exc.), but otherwise, I wouldn't rely on it.
Doesn't matter if I have a caster or not, I wouldn't bother with this item unless nobody wanted it, and even then, its probably going to end up wasting space in my inventory or bank.

*Wears ToD necklace for set*

"Uh oh, im running outta Sp, gotta switch to my necklace..."

*Swaps for necklace but dies due to con decreasing*

"FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU..."

You never, ever, take the Torc off, because it is better than every other item in the game. So the swap issues are irrelevant.

Not trying to get hit? It's 200-odd SP per shine. Stacks with everything.

Going out of your way to get hit? It can be 2000+ SP per shrine. Stacks with everything.

[Jaid314]

You never, ever, take the Torc off, because it is better than every other item in the game. So the swap issues are irrelevant.

Not trying to get hit? It's 200-odd SP per shine. Stacks with everything.

Going out of your way to get hit? It can be 2000+ SP per shrine. Stacks with everything.

woah, hold up there!

there are *clickies* in the neck slot! clickies!!! (at least 2 of which can be extremely useful for either rangers or paladins, and at least moderately useful for divines, though mostly not very great for arcanes).

also, if you're a fleshy and not a pale master, at some point you will probably find it better to wear the silver flame neck.

but uhhh... other than that? only reason i can think of offhand is because you TR'd and can't wear it yet.

[bhgiant]

you forgot to factor in the ppl that wont put it up for a roll cuz "they need 2 torcs!!". One to epic and one to leave at lvl so they can TR.:eek:
Sure I did. All casters roll on the torc all the time :). I wanted to keep relatively simple. There's a lot of things that COULD happen.

[AMDarkwolf]

... and there are no idiot melees who think they are going to TR into a caster. Since it IS such a sought after item however, these numbers may not be accurate...

Happy hunting :D

This phrase alone makes me want to hold onto the torc. As an 'idiot melee' I can see many reasons why it might be of use to me. A statement like that simply makes my tiny 'future possible use' outweigh any use you have. Reduces your chances some more if this is how u treat melee's in your groups.(YAY more math for u to do :D)

[bhgiant]

This phrase alone makes me want to hold onto the torc. As an 'idiot melee' I can see many reasons why it might be of use to me. A statement like that simply makes my tiny 'future possible use' outweigh any use you have. Reduces your chances some more if this is how u treat melee's in your groups.(YAY more math for u to do :D)
I am of the opinion that you do not not roll on loot that you cannot use in this life. IF you are going to TR into something, TR and THEN roll on that loot. Having said that, your loot is always your loot. I have seen too many melees roll on caster stuff and visa versa because they claim they need it to TR and then it's still in their bank 4 months later gathering digital dust.

[tinyelvis]

The probability that a torc appears in the 20th completion list is essentially equal to the chance to pull a torc in 20 runs. All other probabilities are negligible. So, if you can accurately predict that probability, then you have nailed it.

People overstate this items usefulness. Don't get me wrong its a great item. But there are a lot of items I would choose before a torc as items that I could not do without. A lore item for example can lead to up to a 12% increase in crit chance. A spell clickie (like superior or eardweller) can give you up to 75 -100% damage bonus to your spells. These typically increase your effective spell point pool more.

A torc is like an automotive air pump that plugs into your cigarette lighter. Sure this is nice to have if you get a flat tire and are able to stop and pump it up. But it is hardly the most important aspect of your automobile, and if you drive safely and smart you may never need to use it.

[CanuckWisdom]

I am of the opinion that you do not not roll on loot that you cannot use in this life. IF you are going to TR into something, TR and THEN roll on that loot. Having said that, your loot is always your loot. I have seen too many melees roll on caster stuff and visa versa because they claim they need it to TR and then it's still in their bank 4 months later gathering digital dust.

So? Who cares. If you pull an item its yours. If an item is up for rolls and you roll and win and the puller doesnt see a problem/passes it, its yours. No one else has **** on you. You could want it specifically to spite all the casters looking for it, its your business what you do with it and no one can do anything about it.

Maybe, you might, go for completionist on your melee, possibly, and this would be a good item to have for that. Thats your decision, sitting at home in your boxers half drunk, its your decision.

or, my paladin rolls and beats your sorc for it. Are you (anyone) gonna complain about it? IMO, an item that requires being hit to produce SP is more effective for a hybrid class anyways.

My point is that if something is in your inventory, or in your name in a chest, its yours no if and of butts.

[bhgiant]

or, my paladin rolls and beats your sorc for it. Are you (anyone) gonna complain about it? IMO, an item that requires being hit to produce SP is more effective for a hybrid class anyways.
Yeah, I didn't take into account the Rangers, Paladins, Artificers, multiclass... so the actual number of people who roll/take the thing is probably much higher.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I am of the opinion that you do not not roll on loot that you cannot use in this life. IF you are going to TR into something, TR and THEN roll on that loot. Having said that, your loot is always your loot. I have seen too many melees roll on caster stuff and visa versa because they claim they need it to TR and then it's still in their bank 4 months later gathering digital dust.

I'm totally fine with people rolling on loot for a TR, having raid loot to use at it's ML is absolutely freaking amazing and one of the huge perks of TR'ing (just think what it feels like for a melee pulling out his LitIIs at level 12 or whatever). Torc is the equivalent in power to LitIIs for a caster (if not better).

Though I remember this one guy who rolled on the banishing robes for a monk TR that he was "just about to do". I checked up on him occasionally and he hadn't TR'd quite a few months later.

[sirgog]

The probability that a torc appears in the 20th completion list is essentially equal to the chance to pull a torc in 20 runs. All other probabilities are negligible. So, if you can accurately predict that probability, then you have nailed it.

People overstate this items usefulness. Don't get me wrong its a great item. But there are a lot of items I would choose before a torc as items that I could not do without. A lore item for example can lead to up to a 12% increase in crit chance. A spell clickie (like superior or eardweller) can give you 75 -100% damage bonus to your spells. These typically increase your effective spell point pool more.

A torc is like an automotive air pump that plugs into your cigarette lighter. Sure this is nice to have if you get a flat tire and are able to stop and pump it up. But it is hardly the most important aspect of your automobile, and if you drive safely and smart you may never need to use it.

Lore items are nothing compared to a Torc.

Get on a Pale Master and solo an epic dungeon. With a Torc most require no mana potions even with a midrange DC (say 42). Without one, most epics can't be soloed pot-less even on an extremely geared caster (45 DC).

If I had to choose between the Torc and my +7 casting stat item, I'd take the Torc almost every time. It is much better than any other SP item in the game, including the Epic Spell Storing Ring.

[MRMechMan]

Torc is best in slot for just about any blue bar class that doesn't enjoy chugging pots.

And for sorcs/wizzies/fvs/clerics...it's rediculously good :)

Anyone who doesn't agree with that is not playing their caster up to it's potential. You are gonna get hit. Might as well get sp back from that. With 30-40 DR and shield mastery something needs to hit *really* hard (80-100+) to not be able to get sp back. EDQ2 lailat=sp battery

Never expect anyone to put a torc up for roll. Even barbs and fighters, they might TR. It's an absolute game changer for any blue bar.

Odds are about 1-2% each time you run it. Run it with guild if you want a higher chance.

[SoloPhalanx]

Exactly - Torc is best-in-slot for all of those classes.

That said, the majority of characters get it within 20 runs. However with how randomness works, a sizeable minority do not get it in 20 or even in 40.

or 60. or 74. just saying

[danlan]

Lore items are nothing compared to a Torc.

Get on a Pale Master and solo an epic dungeon. With a Torc most require no mana potions even with a midrange DC (say 42). Without one, most epics can't be soloed pot-less even on an extremely geared caster (45 DC).

If I had to choose between the Torc and my +7 casting stat item, I'd take the Torc almost every time. It is much better than any other SP item in the game, including the Epic Spell Storing Ring.

No wizard I know ever "torc up" for 20 min to try to solo an epic quest. (IMO noxious embers might be more important for soloing a boss). Sure it is a nice extra 200sp but imo the best part of it is still great spell penetration 8 from its epic form...

[wax_on_wax_off]

No wizard I know ever "torc up" for 20 min to try to solo an epic quest. (IMO noxious embers might be more important for soloing a boss). Sure it is a nice extra 200sp but imo the best part of it is still great spell penetration 8 from its epic form...

If it takes 20 minutes to recharge then you're doing it wrong. Pull more mobs, get more DR, get more SP recharge. I've got epic ring of the mire, torc, concopp goggles, demons consort bracers, mabar robe and a skyvault shield and in elob with I think 3 archers shooting me I have positive HP regen with aura and a DP clicky active and battery takes maybe 5 minutes to go to full (iirc, only done once so far and wasn't timing it).

[Aurora1979]

..... chance is zero. No ifs or buts. no long equations.

I have been running DQ for years, on multiple chars. I have had 1 torc drop in hundreds of runs, on my barb at the time so rolled it away.

So now the chance is 0. nil, nought. the square root of f*** all.

[Purkilius]

It took 3 runs with my Paladin to get the Torc and all the casters were furious that I did not put it up for role.
I had to explain in large detail that my build was based on quickened heals + a con op item and it would proc often as I was being hit often!

But I have to admit that I sometimes, when the healer is good, put the AA necklace on for the extra +2 to hit.

[MRMechMan]

Yea 20 minutes is fail. More DR, better self heals, more things hitting you=faster regen.

Red alert sins I can get from zero to full 2.7k sp in under a minute. Literally can spam spells as fast as I can during sorc lives and still be gaining sp.

In epic it is harder and slower to torc, as you need to heal yourself more often, but it's still doable.

Not sure how that isn't best in slot. Noxious embers is best in slot for the 1s that you equip it to use clickie. Then switch it out for torc.

[bhgiant]

It took 3 runs with my Paladin to get the Torc and all the casters were furious that I did not put it up for role.
See, I don't understand that. You pulled the Torc, you have a blue bar. Loot drama has and always be childish.

or 60. or 74. just saying
oh man... I'm so sorry...

[arminius]

Is the raid soloable with a self healing caster? I know the pre-raid is, but the groups seem rare on ghallanda for the raid. The raid seems easy enough, but I'm not sure of the degree that experience has been subsidized by the good play of others.

[karnokvolrath]

To the people attempting, and failing, to discount the torcs usefulness....well your just plain wrong.

It is the best neck slot item for every caster, and even some melees. You sould never take it off unless your making space around your neck to hang yourself (hehe, all jokes aside im serious).

[arminius]

To the people attempting, and failing, to discount the torcs usefulness....well your just plain wrong.

It is the best neck slot item for every caster, and even some melees. You sould never take it off unless your making space around your neck to hang yourself (hehe, all jokes aside im serious).

I'd keep it on if I hung myself, personally. One takes constant damage; so one can keep on gaining precious sp right to the end. It might come in handy.

[tinyelvis]

Lore items are nothing compared to a Torc.

Get on a Pale Master and solo an epic dungeon. With a Torc most require no mana potions even with a midrange DC (say 42). Without one, most epics can't be soloed pot-less even on an extremely geared caster (45 DC).

If I had to choose between the Torc and my +7 casting stat item, I'd take the Torc almost every time. It is much better than any other SP item in the game, including the Epic Spell Storing Ring.
12% bonus to lore or Torc, I'd take lore
However, 3% bonus to lore or Torc, I'd take the Torc
75% bonus to spell damage, I'd take the superior clicky.
I have epic and greensteel items with many functions that I would take over torc. My concordant opp/hp wisdom 6 items/weapon, I would take over a torc. Sometimes you guys get fanatical about your point of view and go all looney and ridiculous.

I agree that you can get boosts in your spell point pool from a torc. Its a very nice item. There is rarely a need or time to ever actively turtle up and generate spell points. 200 pts passively between shrines is a good estimate (probably a little high) and a great reason to use a torc. That's a nice three or four more shots from your best sorcerer spells.

However, you dont need a torc to solo most of the epic content with a sorcerer (perhaps with a wizard or earth savant you do). However, you do need good spell DCs. You do need high spell damage buffs. All of house P is easily solo'd, all of the sentinals is soloable, Von 1, 2, and 4 are easily soloable. Wiz king easily solo'able. All epic challenges, easily soloable (in those quests, I wear death block necklace.) There are more that I have not mentioned. The overwhelming majority of epic quests are easily soloable with or without a torc. Sure, if you are a poor player or if your spells function poorly due to sub optimum DC or damage boosts or if you are an arcane with a low spell pool then a torc may be a must to help you overcome these deficiencies.

But, this is silly. 99% of the people dont solo epic or play like this and would be incapable of functioning without a party to back them up. During party play, even stopping 5 minutes to fill up your tank would make you ineffective in any but a noob group.

Torc is great. I would suggest you do everything you can to make room to put it on. If you dont have one and are a caster you should try and get one. But if you are an arcane and you dont have the high kill count between shrines over other non arcanes or you cant solo most epics, then its not because you are missing a torc. Overstating the usefulness of this item achieves nothing more than putting it on the developer radar for nerfing.

[tinyelvis]

Yea 20 minutes is fail. More DR, better self heals, more things hitting you=faster regen.

Red alert sins I can get from zero to full 2.7k sp in under a minute. Literally can spam spells as fast as I can during sorc lives and still be gaining sp.

In epic it is harder and slower to torc, as you need to heal yourself more often, but it's still doable.

Not sure how that isn't best in slot. Noxious embers is best in slot for the 1s that you equip it to use clickie. Then switch it out for torc.

Granted the torc is a great item, one of the coolest, but this is just the sort of nonsense that drives me nuts in these forums. People feel they always need to overstate their case to the point of rediculous.

There are two issues here.

1) 2700 sps in less than a minute? Really. Let's do some quick calculations assuming torc regens has a 20% chance to proc 20 SPs per hit that does damage.

a) At 20 SPs a hit that produces damage then that is 2700/20 = 135 procs
b) Torc is expected to proc 1 in 5 hits, so 135 * 5 = 675 hits that do damage

So over a 60 second period we are then talking 675/60 = 11.25 hits per second.

The actual number of hits would need to be much higher since many hits land for no damage and have no chance to produce SPs. So, you are getting hit more than 11 or 12 times a second? Really? Are you sure were not standing there just a little longer. But even at this stupendous hit rate, you still must pause for a minute. I have a suggestion.

JUST KILL THE STUFF AND SHRINE!!!! It takes 10 - 15 seconds and you get all of your clickies back.

Which brings us to the second issue,
2. Why hesitate even for 50 seconds in a quest. If you have DR to sustain the damage of foes attacking you , then just gather a gazzilion up and kill them and move on toward the shrine (if shrining is even necessary). Shrining takes but 10 seconds to fill your bar and you get most of your clickies back. My lord, there are three shrines in SIns, thats four mana bars to finish one short quest. The torc isnt making this possible here, its your damage reduction and self healing capability. If anything the torc is slowing you down in this example as you hesitate to collect SPs. It's a neat gimmick but is it really necessary here?

P.S. I have noticed now that most of you have backed off of the ridiculous claim that the torc is the best item ever (the point I argued against), and are now taking the much more reasonable position that the torc is probably the best item for the neck slot. Glad to see that at least some of you are not completely clouded in torc hysteria.

[SoloPhalanx]

12% bonus to lore or Torc, I'd take lore
However, 3% bonus to lore or Torc, I'd take the Torc
75% bonus to spell damage, I'd take the superior clicky.
I have epic and greensteel items with many functions that I would take over torc. My concordant opp/hp wisdom 6 items/weapon, I would take over a torc.


I don't even want to go into noxious embers. the fact you value conc-opp over a torc is just hilarious


P.S. I have noticed now that most of you have backed off of the ridiculous claim that the torc is the best item ever (the point I argued against), and are now taking the much more reasonable position that the torc is probably the best item for the neck slot. Glad to see that at least some of you are not completely clouded in torc hysteria.

torc IS the best item in the game. care to tell me which one would be better and more game-changing except maybe a ERoSS?

[Cyndrome]

Granted the torc is a great item, one of the coolest, but this is just the sort of nonsense that drives me nuts in these forums. People feel they always need to overstate their case to the point of rediculous.
...

P.S. I have noticed now that most of you have backed off of the ridiculous claim that the torc is the best item ever (the point I argued against), and are now taking the much more reasonable position that the torc is probably the best item for the neck slot. Glad to see that at least some of you are not completely clouded in torc hysteria.

There is not a single item I have on any of my casters that I value more than my torcs. Most of the effects that I think are important I can find on more than 1 item. I do not know if there is overstatement, but I seldom ever see my blue bar below maximum in quests like Sins of Attrition and Weapons Shipment elite. I can cast whatever I want as often as I want. Infact, I would find it hard to empty my blue bar on either of those quests. Granted, I often have a conc op. weapon and item equipped as well.

[MRMechMan]

Really? Are you sure were not standing there just a little longer. But even at this stupendous hit rate, you still must pause for a minute. I have a suggestion.

JUST KILL THE STUFF AND SHRINE!!!! It takes 10 - 15 seconds and you get all of your clickies back.

P.S. I have noticed now that most of you have backed off of the ridiculous claim that the torc is the best item ever (the point I argued against), and are now taking the much more reasonable position that the torc is probably the best item for the neck slot. Glad to see that at least some of you are not completely clouded in torc hysteria.

Often shrining is not possible in epic quests, hard quests and elite quests. You know...the ones that matter. Because they can only be used once. So it's generally not shrining vs torcing. It's drinking pots vs torcing.

And yes, I would say 11-12 hits/second is reasonable when being ganked by 30-40 orthons and their repeaters.

I've gotten somewhere between 500,000sp and 1,000,000sp out of my torc on my main.

P.S.

It is the best item for the neck slot.

It is the best item for a caster. Bar none.

[tinyelvis]

I don't even want to go into noxious embers. the fact you value conc-opp over a torc is just hilarious



torc IS the best item in the game. care to tell me which one would be better and more game-changing except maybe a ERoSS?

Well, I think you might be pretty new to the game. I lose my conc, and I lose +8 charisma, +6 wisdom, 20% neg energy absorbtion not to mention an occasional proc for spell points and hitpoints. A torc hardly compares to that.

I dont doubt you might think your torc is your best item when all you have on your toon is perhaps that and a +6 stat ring, but there are others of us who strongly disagree. I run with torc, two concs, and a life shield proc item. There are times I take the torc off and put on silver flame necklace. I never dump my conc weapon.

I have no problem with you saying your torc is your best item. However, when you start spouting nonsense about it being the best item for a caster or best item in the game.... I can only laugh at your naiveness.

[tinyelvis]

Often shrining is not possible in epic quests, hard quests and elite quests. You know...the ones that matter. Because they can only be used once. So it's generally not shrining vs torcing. It's drinking pots vs torcing.

And yes, I would say 11-12 hits/second is reasonable when being ganked by 30-40 orthons and their repeaters.

I've gotten somewhere between 500,000sp and 1,000,000sp out of my torc on my main.

P.S.

It is the best item for the neck slot.

It is the best item for a caster. Bar none.

Your the one who brought up sins. I was just pointing out your exagerations. So now you next tactic is to change your comment. "Oh wait I dont mean Sins......." In what bizzaro world game of DDO do you get ganked by 30 - 40 orthons? It sure isnt sins. Even if you somehow managed it, you could only get hit by maybe a dozen at most at a time (if that). I typically run to the first door, or shrine in elite sins and pull every swinging **** outsider that will follow. I have a swarm sometimes 6 deep encircling me. I never get hit close to 10 times a second. I dont even think the game can handle that rate. I can even recon without quicken in that situation. I can run the whole quest by shrining just once (There are three shrines in it). Why on earth would you suggest that torc is necessary to do that.

When is shrining in a quest not possible. It sure is not a common occurance. In fact it is **** infrequent. Which house P epic are you refering too? Which house D epic? Which house K? Off hand the only quest I can think of that might require some good old fashioned stand in one spot and accumulate SP is coolescence chamber or solo epic devil assualt. In both of those cases questing with a party never requires it.

The torc only gives you SPs back. This is a nice quality, but it certainly is almost never needed. Now granted, perhaps you play a low DC low DPS build that requires a ton of SPs. Perhaps you have few if any good items on your toon but do have a torc. I can see in this case you personally stating that the torc is your favorite most important item. I would not argue that. However, there are others, like myself with other much more powerful items.

[FengXian]

/popcorn

[MRMechMan]

Your the one who brought up sins. I was just pointing out your exagerations. So now you next tactic is to change your comment. "Oh wait I dont mean Sins......." In what bizzaro world game of DDO do you get ganked by 30 - 40 orthons? It sure isnt sins. Even if you somehow managed it, you could only get hit by maybe a dozen at most at a time (if that). I typically run to the first door, or shrine in elite sins and pull every swinging **** outsider that will follow. I have a swarm sometimes 6 deep encircling me. I never get hit close to 10 times a second. I dont even think the game can handle that rate. I can even recon without quicken in that situation. I can run the whole quest by shrining just once (There are three shrines in it). Why on earth would you suggest that torc is necessary to do that.

When is shrining in a quest not possible. It sure is not a common occurance. In fact it is **** infrequent. Which house P epic are you refering too? Which house D epic? Which house K? Off hand the only quest I can think of that might require some good old fashioned stand in one spot and accumulate SP is coolescence chamber or solo epic devil assualt. In both of those cases questing with a party never requires it.

The torc only gives you SPs back. This is a nice quality, but it certainly is almost never needed. Now granted, perhaps you play a low DC low DPS build that requires a ton of SPs. Perhaps you have few if any good items on your toon but do have a torc. I can see in this case you personally stating that the torc is your favorite most important item. I would not argue that. However, there are others, like myself with other much more powerful items.

Try duoing or trioing EDQ2 without a torc. Dr or no DR, will be out of sp fast. With torc she just fuels the fire.

Try tanking ELOB on a fvs while DOTing and self healing without a torc. Chains of flame it's really useful, particularly solo. Wizking has a ton of shrines but it's still nice because of the archers.

I don't stand in one place and torc in P/D/K epics generally because those are pretty easy. Torc shines in the hardest content, not the easy stuff.

I mentioned sins because it was one of the best (fastest) places I can recall torcing up. Not saying I skip shrines there when soloing it...although I often do. I *Never* said it was needed. At all. In the slightest. You aren't even TWISTING my words, you are making stuff up. AGAIN. Why do you consistantly and constantly do this during an argument/debate with myself and others? STOP making stuff up.

It was an example, I don't care how many shrines there are, because it was just an example of how fast it can be done. Point out *specifically* where I exaggerated. It might seem like it to you, but I and many others have done awesome things, mostly because of torc.

Torc is the sp regen equivalent of around THREE concops. In one slot. You can slot charisma anywhere. You can slot exp charisma in several spots. You can slot wisdom anywhere. Neg energy absorbtion is situational at best and useless at worst. The hp proc is equal to around 1.25 DR...nice but torc just absolutely outclasses that item, sorry. Utterly and completely.

+75% damage clickies, possibly eardweller are the *only* caster items I might not outright laugh at someone suggesting they are as good as torc...and those aren't even SLOTTED, they are just clickies...maybe Docent of defiance on a wf but really nothing else springs to mind...lesser maximize clickies are nice but torc way more useful in most situations as well.

Orthons have ranged attacks, that are quite fast and do enough damage to break 10 DR but not enough to really hurt. 10-15 times a second is pretty typical. You are right that the game cant handle it though...lag often happens when red alert and that many mobs are on you.

And again, it's often not just "standing in one spot and regening sp". In a typical quest, you are GONNA get hit doing other stuff, and torc will still give you hundreds of sp back per shrine, even if you decide to displace yourself and dodge melee...which once you have torc and selfhealing is counter productive.

I can generate +sp regen off of almost any melee mob in the game...a few epic bosses are the only ones I can't, and a few raid bosses, unless other mobs beating on me too. Without torc can't really generate sp regen off of anything in epics. It really is a game changer, going from never wanting to get hit to wanting to get hit 95% of the time? FROM ONE ITEM!? How is that not awesome?

I do like that backhanded gesture at the end..."if you are undergeared and have ***** DCs, yea torc is great for you. If you don't know how to play and get hit all the time, torc is great." Classy as always elvis. Not good because it ONLY gives sp back?

It boils down to playstyle. Mine is clearly different than yours. (This is the point in your reply where you say they are different, and yours is superior, yes I know your MO well.) But really, really no need to be insulting about it.

[Cyndrome]

I can run the whole quest by shrining just once (There are three shrines in it). Why on earth would you suggest that torc is necessary to do that.


Or you could put on your torc and never shrine- which means you do not need to DDoor or backtrack to the first shrine, go down the hallway for the middle shrine or kill the prisoners for the last shrine.

If you wear a torc you can blast everything all the way through. It is possible with 2 conc ops and no torc, but you have to let stuff hit you a bit longer so you might as well shrine.

[danlan]

My personal experience is in most epics, torc is nowhere as good as abbot raid stuff, if I have to compare. Torc is very useful for shavarath stuff though.

[tinyelvis]

Try duoing or trioing EDQ2 without a torc. Dr or no DR, will be out of sp fast. With torc she just fuels the fire.

You must be talking elite because you are not letting anything hit you in epic DQ without good damage reduction. And elite is pretty easy to solo without the need of a torc, let alone 2 or 3 man. Damage reduction makes that possible.

Try tanking ELOB on a fvs while DOTing and self healing without a torc. Chains of flame it's really useful, particularly solo. Wizking has a ton of shrines but it's still nice because of the archers.

A torc is useful in all quests, OOB is another example. Whoever said it was not useful? I pointed out it was not necessary to have one to solo most quests.

But how is the above act or this class representative of all casters? If the torc was the key to the FVS success above then should it not be independent of class? Should you not be able to write "caster" in place of FVS? You didnt because the torc is not really the key item there but rather damage reduction. Damage reduction plays a huge role there. To hold aggro a tank needs an intimidate somewhere in the 50s. By your logic then since he can do that, the item that makes that possible must also be the best in the game.

Is this really your best argument? Nevermind that neither of these are in any way typical situations or even related to arcane casters.

I don't stand in one place and torc in P/D/K epics generally because those are pretty easy. Torc shines in the hardest content, not the easy stuff.

What, like sins on elite or other shavarath quests. I have news for you, these are not tough quests for very good players.

I mentioned sins because it was one of the best (fastest) places I can recall torcing up. Not saying I skip shrines there when soloing it...although I often do. I *Never* said it was needed. At all. In the slightest. You aren't even TWISTING my words, you are making stuff up. AGAIN. Why do you consistantly and constantly do this during an argument/debate with myself and others? STOP making stuff up.

People write about their experiences and what they perceive as impressive. You wrote, and I quote, "Red alert sins I can get from zero to full 2.7k sp in under a minute," which implies you gather from zero to full spells points via the torc. Where you not standing in one place while you did this? Further, are you saying you then go and shrine after filling your mana bar by "torqing up?" That seems ludicrous to me.

It was an example, I don't care how many shrines there are, because it was just an example of how fast it can be done. Point out *specifically* where I exaggerated. It might seem like it to you, but I and many others have done awesome things, mostly because of torc.

"when being ganked by 30-40 orthons and their repeaters." Another direct quote from you. Where do you encounter 40 orthons in sins? You can run from the table room all the way to the cinder spawn and not pull more than half that many orhons and devils. But even if you could. How in the world could you get that many to have LOS to you (keep in mind at least that many devils would be there too)? Orthons dont have precise shot. I have a torc and two conc items on and cant fill my mana as fast as you suggest. Finally, how do you get your DOO game to keep track of more than 10 hits a second?

Torc is the sp regen equivalent of around THREE concops. In one slot. You can slot charisma anywhere. You can slot exp charisma in several spots. You can slot wisdom anywhere. Neg energy absorbtion is situational at best and useless at worst. The hp proc is equal to around 1.25 DR...nice but torc just absolutely outclasses that item, sorry. Utterly and completely.

Oh, so now you're typically backtracking on your statement. You never said anything about cross slotting. You wrote and I quote again, "It is the best item for a caster. Bar none." If your statement is true then any item I put up, you should easily be able to show without deconstruction, that it is inferior. Obviously you cant. Further, what about the casters who buy pots from the store on a regular basis. These guys get instantly a couple hundred points of mana. I'm betting these folks don't think the torc is their best item. Yet they are casters and fall under your blanket naive statement.

+75% damage clickies, possibly eardweller are the *only* caster items I might not outright laugh at someone suggesting they are as good as torc...and those aren't even SLOTTED, they are just clickies...maybe Docent of defiance on a wf but really nothing else springs to mind...lesser maximize clickies are nice but torc way more useful in most situations as well.

Lets say we enter SINs on elite with characters who can only take one item. I can take a +75 clicky and solo the quest. However, I doubt you could pull it off with only a Torc on, I dont think I could. Without your damage reduction, the torc is not enough help. Plus you would be at a serious disadvantage without spell buffs.

Orthons have ranged attacks, that are quite fast and do enough damage to break 10 DR but not enough to really hurt. 10-15 times a second is pretty typical. You are right that the game cant handle it though...lag often happens when red alert and that many mobs are on you.

I know I am right because I have experienced it.

And again, it's often not just "standing in one spot and regening sp". In a typical quest, you are GONNA get hit doing other stuff, and torc will still give you hundreds of sp back per shrine, even if you decide to displace yourself and dodge melee...which once you have torc and selfhealing is counter productive.

To get 200 spell points back between shrines means you got hit for damage around 10*5 = 50 times. That is a heck of lot of times to get hit. I pointed out this was probably an exaggeration by a person earlier. I do agree though that wearing a torc is a good idea. I think getting hit maybe 20 times between shrines is more reasonable. That is less than 100 points gained. Mobs die too fast to hit you more often.

I can generate +sp regen off of almost any melee mob in the game...a few epic bosses are the only ones I can't, and a few raid bosses, unless other mobs beating on me too. Without torc can't really generate sp regen off of anything in epics. It really is a game changer, going from never wanting to get hit to wanting to get hit 95% of the time? FROM ONE ITEM!? How is that not awesome?

I have a torc. There is no need typically for the extra spell points. Why let things beat on you if you don't need the points? If I had an item that allowed when I was hit for my robe to change colors. This might be cool, but if the color of my robe really did not have a big impact on my game, is it really an important item?

I do like that backhanded gesture at the end..."if you are undergeared and have ***** DCs, yea torc is great for you. If you don't know how to play and get hit all the time, torc is great." Classy as always elvis. Not good because it ONLY gives sp back?

It boils down to playstyle. Mine is clearly different than yours. (This is the point in your reply where you say they are different, and yours is superior, yes I know your MO well.) But really, really no need to be insulting about it.

Those are not my quotes above. That is just you slandering me with miss quotes. If you really accept that it boils down to a playstyle, then how can you claim one item that heavily supports one playstyle (namely yours) is better than any other. Surely you can imagine that some caster somewhere has a playstyle that does not heavily rely on the torc. Why would you presume then that the torc is best for them? You are the one making these all inclusive claims, not me.




Ugh.

[bhgiant]

Why not equip a ConcOpp AND a Torc AND Shrine :rolleyes:

[MRMechMan]

Try duoing or trioing EDQ2 without a torc. Dr or no DR, will be out of sp fast. With torc she just fuels the fire.

You must be talking elite because you are not letting anything hit you in epic DQ without good damage reduction. And elite is pretty easy to solo without the need of a torc, let alone 2 or 3 man. Damage reduction makes that possible.

No, I meant epic. DR is important there yea, but so is how much sp regen you get per hit. 1 concop=1.1sp/hit. 2concops=2.2sp/hit torc=~3sp/hit on it's own. So with 2concops+torc=~5sp/hit.

DR+torc=win DR+no torc=sucking pots till you drown



Try tanking ELOB on a fvs while DOTing and self healing without a torc. Chains of flame it's really useful, particularly solo. Wizking has a ton of shrines but it's still nice because of the archers.

A torc is useful in all quests, OOB is another example. Whoever said it was not useful? I pointed out it was not necessary to have one to solo most quests.

But how is the above act or this class representative of all casters? If the torc was the key to the FVS success above then should it not be independent of class? Should you not be able to write "caster" in place of FVS? You didnt because the torc is not really the key item there but rather damage reduction. Damage reduction plays a huge role there. To hold aggro a tank needs an intimidate somewhere in the 50s. By your logic then since he can do that, the item that makes that possible must also be the best in the game.


Is this really your best argument? Nevermind that neither of these are in any way typical situations or even related to arcane casters.


Arcane casters can get high DR as well. Arcane caster can tank. Tanking on an arcane torc is just as useful as it is on a fvs, or cleric, or anyone with heal/reconstruct. Intimidate is not needed to tank any boss, but is certainly useful. Not entirely sure what the point you are trying to make is. There are MANY items that boost intim. How many items boost sp regen on a caster? Concop, concop and torc. And torc is by far the majority if you have all 3 even. If there was only 1 item that boosted intim, it would certainly be considered best in slot on some builds.

I don't stand in one place and torc in P/D/K epics generally because those are pretty easy. Torc shines in the hardest content, not the easy stuff.


What, like sins on elite or other shavarath quests. I have news for you, these are not tough quests for very good players.


I mentioned shavarath in passing, and never said it was hard. It's not. Try again :)


I mentioned sins because it was one of the best (fastest) places I can recall torcing up. Not saying I skip shrines there when soloing it...although I often do. I *Never* said it was needed. At all. In the slightest. You aren't even TWISTING my words, you are making stuff up. AGAIN. Why do you consistantly and constantly do this during an argument/debate with myself and others? STOP making stuff up.

People write about their experiences and what they perceive as impressive. You wrote, and I quote, "Red alert sins I can get from zero to full 2.7k sp in under a minute," which implies you gather from zero to full spells points via the torc. Where you not standing in one place while you did this? Further, are you saying you then go and shrine after filling your mana bar by "torqing up?" That seems ludicrous to me.

No, I was just giving an example of a place where someone with a torc can get high sp regen. I didn't mention shrines. I didn't say it was faster or slower to shrine. In my original post, I didn't mention anything other than it was a good place to torc"

It was an example, I don't care how many shrines there are, because it was just an example of how fast it can be done. Point out *specifically* where I exaggerated. It might seem like it to you, but I and many others have done awesome things, mostly because of torc.

"when being ganked by 30-40 orthons and their repeaters." Another direct quote from you. Where do you encounter 40 orthons in sins? You can run from the table room all the way to the cinder spawn and not pull more than half that many orhons and devils. But even if you could. How in the world could you get that many to have LOS to you (keep in mind at least that many devils would be there too)? Orthons dont have precise shot. I have a torc and two conc items on and cant fill my mana as fast as you suggest. Finally, how do you get your DOO game to keep track of more than 10 hits a second?

They still seem to register, it just gets a bit choppy. A second is a long time when you are getting gunned down by repeaters. There are 100-150 mobs in sins, possibly more, I don't really go for conquest so not entirely sure. Generally I invis run it so don't have 40 orthons following me...but certainly could if I wanted. Perhaps if you can't fill your bar as fast get some more DR...it really helps. If you hit that "sweet spot" of 1-5 damage you can even go afk and the lifeshield/concop procs keep you alive for quite some time.

Torc is the sp regen equivalent of around THREE concops. In one slot. You can slot charisma anywhere. You can slot exp charisma in several spots. You can slot wisdom anywhere. Neg energy absorbtion is situational at best and useless at worst. The hp proc is equal to around 1.25 DR...nice but torc just absolutely outclasses that item, sorry. Utterly and completely.

Oh, so now you're typically backtracking on your statement. You never said anything about cross slotting. You wrote and I quote again, "It is the best item for a caster. Bar none." If your statement is true then any item I put up, you should easily be able to show without deconstruction, that it is inferior. Obviously you cant. Further, what about the casters who buy pots from the store on a regular basis. These guys get instantly a couple hundred points of mana. I'm betting these folks don't think the torc is their best item. Yet they are casters and fall under your blanket naive statement.

Not backtracking, and I'll say it again as you seem to be hard of hearing. I consider torc to be the best caster item. Many people seem to agree with me. Some do not. That is OK. If someone refuses to slot charisma AND concop anywhere else but their necklace (why?), and are a sorc, then that could be competition for torc. BUT, if someone crafts their greensteel concop item in that slot they are making a huge mistake and are probably pretty uninformed about what else could go there. You can slot concops in any slot. You can slot charisma in any slot. You can slot transform kinetic energy in...well, 1 slot. So if the player is a total dip$hit, yea torc has some competition.

+75% damage clickies, possibly eardweller are the *only* caster items I might not outright laugh at someone suggesting they are as good as torc...and those aren't even SLOTTED, they are just clickies...maybe Docent of defiance on a wf but really nothing else springs to mind...lesser maximize clickies are nice but torc way more useful in most situations as well.

Lets say we enter SINs on elite with characters who can only take one item. I can take a +75 clicky and solo the quest. However, I doubt you could pull it off with only a Torc on, I dont think I could. Without your damage reduction, the torc is not enough help. Plus you would be at a serious disadvantage without spell buffs.

CONGRATS YOU PICKED A SCENARIO WHERE TORC ISN'T THE BEST!

That doesn't mean it isn't overall still better. Sure, torc is put to best advantage when coupled with DR, temp hp procs and blocking. Those are all easy to get.

Anarc of smiting are better vs shroud portals therefor ESoS is not the best 2hander, guys!

Orthons have ranged attacks, that are quite fast and do enough damage to break 10 DR but not enough to really hurt. 10-15 times a second is pretty typical. You are right that the game cant handle it though...lag often happens when red alert and that many mobs are on you.

I know I am right because I have experienced it.

And that means others are wrong? That is the definitition of narrowminded...you see what you see and you judge...you don't assume others see differently and have different experiences...

And again, it's often not just "standing in one spot and regening sp". In a typical quest, you are GONNA get hit doing other stuff, and torc will still give you hundreds of sp back per shrine, even if you decide to displace yourself and dodge melee...which once you have torc and selfhealing is counter productive.

To get 200 spell points back between shrines means you got hit for damage around 10*5 = 50 times. That is a heck of lot of times to get hit. I pointed out this was probably an exaggeration by a person earlier. I do agree though that wearing a torc is a good idea. I think getting hit maybe 20 times between shrines is more reasonable. That is less than 100 points gained. Mobs die too fast to hit you more often.

Again, different playstyles. Any mob that hits for less than about 40 damage is welcome to hit me as much as it wants. So yes I will get hit more than you. And yes often it is more than 50 times. And yes, sometimes much, much more than that.

I can generate +sp regen off of almost any melee mob in the game...a few epic bosses are the only ones I can't, and a few raid bosses, unless other mobs beating on me too. Without torc can't really generate sp regen off of anything in epics. It really is a game changer, going from never wanting to get hit to wanting to get hit 95% of the time? FROM ONE ITEM!? How is that not awesome?

I have a torc. There is no need typically for the extra spell points. Why let things beat on you if you don't need the points? If I had an item that allowed when I was hit for my robe to change colors. This might be cool, but if the color of my robe really did not have a big impact on my game, is it really an important item?

Because often at the highest difficulties (not P/D/K epics...) it's either drink to win or torc to win. I'd rather torc and so would most people. Try concoping to win without torc...not really the same. That shrine lacking in ELOB kinda puts you to a choice...pots or torcing. Comparing sp on a caster to the color of someones robe? If someone is a major mnem addict, maybe...whats next, comparing melees hp to how shiny their boots are? SP matter on a caster. Having a near-unlimited source of sp that is resource free is very very useful. Perhaps you finish every quest with 500sp left and then ride off into the sunset and eat a jelly rainbow but that certainly isn't everyones experience.

I do like that backhanded gesture at the end..."if you are undergeared and have ***** DCs, yea torc is great for you. If you don't know how to play and get hit all the time, torc is great." Classy as always elvis. Not good because it ONLY gives sp back?

It boils down to playstyle. Mine is clearly different than yours. (This is the point in your reply where you say they are different, and yours is superior, yes I know your MO well.) But really, really no need to be insulting about it.

Those are not my quotes above. That is just you slandering me with miss quotes. If you really accept that it boils down to a playstyle, then how can you claim one item that heavily supports one playstyle (namely yours) is better than any other. Surely you can imagine that some caster somewhere has a playstyle that does not heavily rely on the torc. Why would you presume then that the torc is best for them? You are the one making these all inclusive claims, not me.

For some playstyles torc is by far the best caster item. For other playstyles it is merely the best in slot. For the average playstyle/person that has a torc, it is their best caster item.

Limegreen. Merry Christmas.

[SoloPhalanx]

My personal experience is in most epics, torc is nowhere as good as abbot raid stuff, if I have to compare. Torc is very useful for shavarath stuff though.

Torc is more useful by far. Tipically, for an arcane, we're looking at:

Petitioner - Easily surpassed by an Epic Staff of Inner Sight, for the +7 to int, allowing you to use the robe slot for Boon of Undeath.

Litany - Undoubtfully one of the best (if not the best) item for the trinket slot on an arcane, due to granting the chance to up DC by 1. If you're DC is 41 or below, this might be more helpful than a Torc. Higher, I'd take 1 or 2 more fails which can easily be compensated by the SP that torc gives us.

Shroud of the Abbot - awesome if you don't have the Mabar robe, and even then it is pretty good due to the light resist. Still, Boon comes nowhere near the fuel Torc gives you.


Well, I think you might be pretty new to the game. I lose my conc, and I lose +8 charisma, +6 wisdom, 20% neg energy absorbtion not to mention an occasional proc for spell points and hitpoints. A torc hardly compares to that.

I dont doubt you might think your torc is your best item when all you have on your toon is perhaps that and a +6 stat ring, but there are others of us who strongly disagree. I run with torc, two concs, and a life shield proc item. There are times I take the torc off and put on silver flame necklace. I never dump my conc weapon.

I have no problem with you saying your torc is your best item. However, when you start spouting nonsense about it being the best item for a caster or best item in the game.... I can only laugh at your naiveness.

If you had looked at the characters in my sig, I'm assuming you'd have noticed that I'm not the dumbass you think I am. I'm far from uber, but looking at 1 or 2 of my toons you'd be able to tell that i have quite some GS built (~8-10? dunno atm), quite a bunch of epic stuff, including one or two tricky stuff such as Inner Sight, Gloves of the Claw, two 3 piece Abishai sets, all the components for a Tier 3 Alchemical Wraps, etc.

I feel bad for you if after 1 year of playing all you had was a +6 stat ring. *shrugs*

But I'll tell you what. If you post your magnificent gear I'll try to give you some advice as to how you should probably put that +2 exceptional charisma on a ToD ring, and use that final slot for 30% HA (if you're a fleshling) or +2 Exceptional Cons (if you're a Robot).

[voodoogroves]

Is the raid soloable with a self healing caster? I know the pre-raid is, but the groups seem rare on ghallanda for the raid. The raid seems easy enough, but I'm not sure of the degree that experience has been subsidized by the good play of others.

The raid can be solod on Hard DOT tanking, fairly easily with the right prep. After 40 runs on my Bard, then Sorc with no Torc, I started doing this and got it on my 60th list. Good damage boosters and DR are the real key.

Shortman DQs are pretty common as well. Also, since you're not caring about XP, bring the 20s.

I've got a buddy who still doens't have one and I've been thinking about getting one for my Arti and a second for my FVS so I can epic one; you're on g-land so maybe I'll drop you a line when I run it.

[1nth]

I've gotten Lailat down to half on my lvl 17 no evasion, 10 con cleric (gear gets me close to 300 hp). This is ABSOLUTELY doable. DOT, shield block the bbs, twitch around arrows, jump when you cast, ff, 30 striders or haste, fire resist 30, blindness ward... And don't roll a 1 to save vs wrack!

A torc would make torc-farming much easier!

[JeisonBlade]

This is how me and my gang got torcs for our toons

Get a couple friends, we usually 4-6 man it
Run ADQ1 on casual
Run ADQ2 on normal
Get a completion in about 15-20 mins from the time you hit sands till you collect your end reward

By the time we hit 20 completions, 2 torcs had dropped in the chest (along with tons of other named gear, I personally got a half dozen items I wanted and put several others up for roll) and three of us got torcs in the end reward list.

Unfortuanetly one person didnt end up with one, but those are the breaks, he got one on the next round

Not saying its the best or fastest way to get one, but it is easy. It got us our torcs with a minumum of frustration (i have yet to see one drop on epic, not saying they dont, just not for any group i been in) , just need patience.

[tinyelvis]

Torc is more useful by far. Tipically, for an arcane, we're looking at:

Petitioner - Easily surpassed by an Epic Staff of Inner Sight, for the +7 to int, allowing you to use the robe slot for Boon of Undeath.

Litany - Undoubtfully one of the best (if not the best) item for the trinket slot on an arcane, due to granting the chance to up DC by 1. If you're DC is 41 or below, this might be more helpful than a Torc. Higher, I'd take 1 or 2 more fails which can easily be compensated by the SP that torc gives us.

Shroud of the Abbot - awesome if you don't have the Mabar robe, and even then it is pretty good due to the light resist. Still, Boon comes nowhere near the fuel Torc gives you.



If you had looked at the characters in my sig, I'm assuming you'd have noticed that I'm not the dumbass you think I am. I'm far from uber, but looking at 1 or 2 of my toons you'd be able to tell that i have quite some GS built (~8-10? dunno atm), quite a bunch of epic stuff, including one or two tricky stuff such as Inner Sight, Gloves of the Claw, two 3 piece Abishai sets, all the components for a Tier 3 Alchemical Wraps, etc.

I feel bad for you if after 1 year of playing all you had was a +6 stat ring. *shrugs*

But I'll tell you what. If you post your magnificent gear I'll try to give you some advice as to how you should probably put that +2 exceptional charisma on a ToD ring, and use that final slot for 30% HA (if you're a fleshling) or +2 Exceptional Cons (if you're a Robot).

Again being that you seem relatively new to the game let me explain. I carry a conc item, a conc weapon, and a torc (around my neck). Essentially the conc weapon is a +6 wisdom, +6 (stat), +2 exceptional (stat) plus some other minor things. The stat bonuses could have been anything. I chose charisma since I have other stat bonuses covered elsewhere. I never take off the weapon, I occasion take off the torc (see below).

The toon is built to collect SP in game if necessary. I also wear a lifeshield item. That means I proc hps or spell points around every 3rd or 4th damaging hit. Now I am sure you have your little torc and a few other cool items and fancy yourself an expert on all things DDO. However, you cant get many more SP/HP proc'n items on a toon than I have. I have a lot of experience actually using these items (in other words, I am not just repeating things I have heard other people say). Through my vast experience, I have come to learn that passive spell point generation is great, and that rarely is there time or a need to actively collect SPs. Aggressive knowledgeable offensive play circumvents the need. I use stone skins, wear a blurry item, and occasionally use displacement. Spell point regeneration when something manages to hit me between shrines is a nice perk, that is all. I have not needed or even desired to stop and collect spell points in a quest or raid in a long long long time. Occasionally, I will even take off the torc and put on say a silver flame necklace. Recently I did this a lot solo'n epic challenges. I did this as a redundancy to my deathblock item, which I would remove while buffing spells and forget to put back on. I would only realize this when I was insta killed. Since spell points was not a big issue for me in the mansion quests, I would take off my torc and wear the silver flame necklace.

A +6 wisdom, +6 stat, +2 exceptional stat item that has a number of other effects including spell/hitpoint point regeneration, would rate higher on my list of great items than a torc that just simply adds spell points from time to time. Perhaps if DDO was a spell point desert, the torc would rate higher. However, with numerous shrines in most every quest and raid, with spell point potions plentiful in game, with spell point potions available to those who wish to play that way, there really is not a great need for spell point regeneration (for many players). Therefore, it is not only naive but very arrogant and ignorant to make the claim that this item is the best arcane item. The most you could claim is that it is the best item you have (a statement which I don't doubt in the least).

My superior lightning lore, epic bracers of the wind with blurry, air guard, inherent lightning resistance, and other effects with two crystal spots, also beats out the torc on my list of best items.

[Seventoe]

<whine>
I haven't seen a Torc drop in any of my groups, for myself or anyone else. I have seen every item on the loot list drop multiple times except for the bracers, which I've only seen drop once. So while the drop rates linked may very well be correct, they sure don't feel right subjectively.

And what is this hypothetical 8 melee Demon Queen? My groups tend to be something like 1 barbarian, 1 rogue who dies within 6 seconds of Lailat coming down, and 10 torc-starved blue bars.

</whine>

[Matuse]

My first FvS got a torc on a roll from a bard who already had one on my 6th run.

My second FvS is on run #34 and still doesn't have it. My work hours often leave me with few options, so I run my FvS and a second account character (who hides down on a platform in the lava) on elite. So far I've had really good drop rates on named stuff (and even gotten an unbound +2 dex tome, which I didn't think was possible), but no torc. My alt account has gotten Storm, Bramblecasters, and Marilith Chain so far. Heh.

As for the utility of the torc...honestly, if I could have only one item worn on my character and be in my skivvies for every other slot, I'd take the torc.

[SoloPhalanx]

*shortened*

You still went for the insult, and then bragged about 1 GS item and 1 epic item from challenges, and still refused to name your chars.

You are playing this game awefully wrong

[testing1234]

its important that after you done 20 runs and didnt get it at 20th you have same chance of getting the torc as someone whos never done the quest


would suggest a static guild party that keeps on going until all in the party have 1, each person getting the torc means your chance next time it drops goes up exponentially.

this is basically only way to insure yourself against being one of those hit by lightning unlucky guys who does 200 runs and still dont have 1.

[bhgiant]

<whine>
And what is this hypothetical 8 melee Demon Queen? My groups tend to be something like 1 barbarian, 1 rogue who dies within 6 seconds of Lailat coming down, and 10 torc-starved blue bars.

</whine>
Dang rogues. Why do they have to be so potent if done right but so easy to do wrong. As for 2 melee and 10 blue bars... ok, maybe I just need to calculate the chances of it pulling for yourself and add it to the OP, no rolls considered.

[tinyelvis]

<whine>
I haven't seen a Torc drop in any of my groups, for myself or anyone else. I have seen every item on the loot list drop multiple times except for the bracers, which I've only seen drop once. So while the drop rates linked may very well be correct, they sure don't feel right subjectively.

And what is this hypothetical 8 melee Demon Queen? My groups tend to be something like 1 barbarian, 1 rogue who dies within 6 seconds of Lailat coming down, and 10 torc-starved blue bars.

</whine>

Wow, you are an insightful poet.

I personally have never seen a torc drop. However, I was in a 6 man group once. While I waited (on timer) outside refreshing my supplies, the group finished and one person supposedly pulled a torc.

The drop rate is equivalent to the chance of getting the item on your 20s. All other probabilities are so small they are negligible. No one knows for sure what that rate is. Though I applaud the OPs efforts, they are in fact a waste of time. I would guess on average you get the torc by your sixtieth run. Though it would not surprise me to find that the developers change the rate from time to time.

[tinyelvis]

Because often at the highest difficulties, FOR ME, (not P/D/K epics...) it's either drink to win or torc to win. I'd rather torc and so would OTHER people. Try concoping to win without torc...not really the same. That shrine lacking in ELOB kinda puts you to a choice...pots or torcing. .............Perhaps you finish every quest with 500sp left and then ride off into the sunset and eat a jelly rainbow but that certainly isn't everyones experience.

For some playstyles torc is by far the best caster item. For other playstyles it is merely SOMETIMES the best in slot.

?????????For the average playstyle/person that has a torc, it is their best caster item. ??????

Fun with colors. I added in big blue letters words that make your "opinions" irrefutable. Honestly, that is all you can really say. Ideas like, it's impossible to solo most epics without a torc, or hands down its the best caster item just are not based on all of the facts. Don't you see, it takes but one person to stand up and say. I can solo most epic content without a torc. I don't need extra spell points in most quest or raids I run to completely refute your original statement. I am this person. Further, I know I am not the best player out there, so I know there are others.

I am telling you this. Do you deny that I am telling you this or do you deny that I could solo most content without a torc? Perhaps in your experience you cant imagine it, but I assure you it can be done. There is a difference between not being able to imagine someone doing something and something not being able to be done.

I actually thought you were finally starting to get it. In the end you seemed to concede that not everyone thinks or plays like you and for them the torc is not the best item. But then the yellow text came. LOL, so you give up your torc is the best item crusade and now have decided to defend the position by declaring the average player thinks torc is the best.

Actually, you are probably right. I can get on board with this idea. People with average ability, and average effective playstyles, and average game knowledge probably all do think an item like the torc is the best.

[bhgiant]

snip
A glass of cranberry juice in the morning does wonders for the body. Exercise too. Reduces stress like you wouldn't believe.

[FengXian]

@tinyelvis: fist of all, please watch your attitute. You call other people noobs, basically, or ignorant at best. You have already claimed to have "vast knowledge" on other topics and we know how it ended.

Try to run eLoB without a torc. Let me know if the party will be willing to wait on your mana refill with just the 2 conc-opps, or how many pots you'll have to chug.

Also, the fact that you never swap out your conc-opp weapon but you do swap out the torc means nothing. You have your deathblock on neck slot, deathblock is a must in some situations.

Torc on the other hand, is not needed in most content. Easy content, plenty of shrines etc., won't require great items.

Epic claw set is not required in most content either. Same goes for most other amazing items, you can complete the easy stuff without them. They are required for the hard stuff tho, that is where equip really matters.

Torc can't be replaced (unless arti splash). Clickies don't really count since every caster will have those anyway you can craft them easily and amrath belts are very common. Clickies are that good because they don't take a slot.

But what makes casters that good is the ability to have virtually unlimited mana -not by pots, pots are consumable resourses- but thanks to 1)DR 2)unlimited mana refilling items. And guess which item gives you the most mana back? Conc-opp? No.

[bhgiant]

a worthy read
Hear hear! Being relatively new to casting (my sorc is only lvl 18), I found the information you informed us of informative.

[Drekisen]

We would like to think the % system works as easily as if you have a 25% chance of getting something then by the fourth attempt you should get it.

This is absolutely not how loot works in pretty much any MMO.

That being said I got my Torc on the third attempt elite PUG ADQ2.

I find when I expect the % numbers to work out according to logic I am almost always disappointed......when I could care less.....I always get something.

I try to play with it in my mind that foundations make the character....not dessert....which is actually what raid loot is.

[Chette]

Most elite DQs aren't run with a full party, they are usually short manned with whoever is available. Torcs are also highly sought after by bards, and paladins or rangers that are self healing. I would never rely on getting a Torc through the roll system, as it's very rare that it is put up for roll, and when it is, most of the party will be competing.