No Rogues in my ToD

[TheDearLeader]

Are you this player? Because you might be.

The past week, I've applied to three ToDs with my Rogue, Oschkosch. He's in my signature, if you're curious about him.

When I applied, these ToDs had 4, 6, and 9 people already in them, respectively.

I apply.
And I wait.
And I wait.
One had the decency to actually say something. The other two just let my request sit there until "You have been declined because XYZ's part is full..." popped up.

So, I decided I'll make my own ToD LFM today, with blackjack. And hookers.

Counting myself, we ended up with three Assassins in party. And we just rocked that quest. Fast completion, 0 deaths, all that good stuff.

So go ahead, Party Leaders of Sarlona. Keep doing the soft-decline of Rogues. Because I'll take 'em all.

(Special thanks to Defense Guild for coming along for the ride.)

[Meetch1972]

... at least until I get the last ingredient for my boots. :D

I wish I knew what the fuss was about, but there's always a spot for a piker in any raid - especially when not elite. Not that I've seen many rogues who actually pike.

[TheDearLeader]

... at least until I get the last ingredient for my boots. :D

I wish I knew what the fuss was about, but there's always a spot for a piker in any raid - especially when not elite. Not that I've seen many rogues who actually pike.

Only piker I saw was that Suulomades guy. He did hardly anything the whole raid!

[Shadow7375]

Always amazes me how at low level everyone is always desperate for rogues and once you get towards high-end / end-game stuff they suddenly don't want them anymore ... even though there's a lot of good rogues out there with good hp and awesome dps.

[parowan]

Reminds me of the guy who turned me down for his half-full eChrono because he needed "real DPS."

Rogues: Pretending to deal damage since February 2006.

[TheDearLeader]

Reminds me of the guy who turned me down for his half-full eChrono because he needed "real DPS."

Rogues: Pretending to deal damage since February 2006.

Yeah. Meanwhile, we have to wear Aggro-Reducing items, and take Subtle Backstabbing Enhancements, so we don't pull the hate from the supposed "Real DPS". :)

[Havok.cry]

If you want I can PM you whenever me or mine run a ToD. I like rogues running along side me.

[Habreno]

Yeah. Meanwhile, we have to wear Aggro-Reducing items, and take Subtle Backstabbing Enhancements, so we don't pull the hate from the supposed "Real DPS". :)

+1, very sadly true.

[Ayseifn]

This happens a bit on Cannith too. I remember once when two good players got rejected from ToD so started one of their own, even had one of them tank shadows because my FvS was too gimp to use fireshield scrolls.

[Bacab]

I would say its pretty easy....

I would accept someone...and if they had 250 HP....I would drop em pretty fast and then take em to tells explaining why.

[bhgiant]

ib4 thread becomes full of rogue fanboi posts

[Lavek]

declining anything for a tod, on normal, rofl!

[Kirris]

I wonder if they are related to the people who wont take a sorc because they have enough casters and need more dps?? :confused: :D

[TheDearLeader]

I wonder if they are related to the people who wont take a sorc because they have enough casters and need more dps?? :confused: :D

I seriously had a Wizard drop a Shroud I was hosting because of "too many casters". I cracked up.

[SSFWEl]

there was a general thread recently about the the jerks who don't have the decency to at least hit the decline button.
Last night I also got a soft decline (nice term, first time I heard that). I moved on, but it's so darn annoying.

I think that at higher levels players just blow through traps, and there are simply less traps overall. Of course then you get to some of the quests WITH traps and boom "trapper plz".

I still can't believe that most players have no clue.

[Miow]

Sadly this **** happens a lot on Sarlona, i also had to convince my friend how much damage my rogue can really do...not including assassinate....he's slowly coming around even though he tends to stick to his ways.

[Sarisa]

Sadly, a lot of people are scarred by the hordes of 6 con Drow rogue 1-hit-wonder trapmonkies. Fear of getting one makes them reject all rogues out of principle.

Rogues and Palis are both classes that should not be available to 28 point builds because of the stat difficulties, and we can avoid some of that.

[Kages]

WHAT... ROGUES AREN'T REAL DPS?!?! Bubba's going to be sooo disapointed!

[morticianjohn]

This happens a bit on Cannith too. I remember once when two good players got rejected from ToD so started one of their own, even had one of them tank shadows because my FvS was too gimp to use fireshield scrolls.

Just last night I joined a ToD. When I noticed the party leader carefully screening applicants I dropped group started my own and took first 11. Three were rogues and all was well.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Just last night I joined a ToD. When I noticed the party leader carefully screening applicants I dropped group started my own and took first 11. Three were rogues and all was well.

I like your style. :cool:

[Tobril]

Rogues can't contribute to a raid, everyone know that.

[Taimasan]

As a monk feel like my only real competition in epic quests/raid as the well played assassins and arcane/divine's most of the time.

[Tyrande]

Not to worry, my ranger and TR wizards got the soft silent rejects all the time for TOD.

I have to applaud certain famous guilds for taking my ranger and wizards as they would take anyone.

Guess what, I TR'd my rogue to a fighter and she got less rejects but now she's getting rejects because people said they don't like the way the character with the fighter icon multi-classed with a level of wizard and some monk.

May be she should have TR'd into a pure barbarian and no one should have any complains, no?

[Ghibly]

Are you this player? Because you might be.

The past week, I've applied to three ToDs with my Rogue, Oschkosch. He's in my signature, if you're curious about him.

When I applied, these ToDs had 4, 6, and 9 people already in them, respectively.

I apply.
And I wait.
And I wait.
One had the decency to actually say something. The other two just let my request sit there until "You have been declined because XYZ's part is full..." popped up.

So, I decided I'll make my own ToD LFM today, with blackjack. And hookers.

Counting myself, we ended up with three Assassins in party. And we just rocked that quest. Fast completion, 0 deaths, all that good stuff.

So go ahead, Party Leaders of Sarlona. Keep doing the soft-decline of Rogues. Because I'll take 'em all.

(Special thanks to Defense Guild for coming along for the ride.)
Too many people don't understand this game.

Rogues rock and your rogue is more than suitable for Elite ToD.

Don't care of them and keep doing what you did: put your LFMs up.

[Beethoven]

Yeah. Meanwhile, we have to wear Aggro-Reducing items, and take Subtle Backstabbing Enhancements, so we don't pull the hate from the supposed "Real DPS". :)

Now, imagine the horror. Imagine the utter humiliation if your rogue still steals the aggro from the supposed real dps no matter how hard he tries not to.

There is a very simple way for a "real" dps to make sure a rogue will not take aggro. Make sure no rogue is in the group. Problem solved. And you wonder why they don't want Oschkosch.

[Llewndyn]

When I am the healer I used to tell everyone in shroud I was centering all of my heals on the rogue. Very easy completions plus it offers some fun griefing opportunities as that one that said "as soon as I die AFK for a drink" and I refused to let him die, great times. Take that Low CON rogue!

What were we talking about again?

[Ilindith]

**** rouges are so gimp!

[KingOfCheese]

Here is my infallible and indisputable list of reasons why rogues should not be allowed into ToD runs:

1) artificers can get all the traps even better than a rogue.
2) it is essentially impossible to get a rogue over 300 hps - making them too squishy to survive part 3.
3) rogues have no STR - so they can't even break DR on the fire ellies on part 1--which is the only enemy in there that they could, in theory, be matched up against (with their evasion).
4) many rogues are halflings - and halflings should not be allowed in ToD.
5) the game isn't so much about builds as it is players - and essentially everyone that plays a rogue is a bad player.

These are simply scientific facts. I will vigorously debate anyone that feels differently using even more proofier evidentials.

[TheDearLeader]

Too many people don't understand this game.

Rogues rock and your rogue is more than suitable for Elite ToD.

Don't care of them and keep doing what you did: put your LFMs up.

Thanks. I appreciate the genuine support from someone from a completely different server. Now if only I could get my server thinking right.


Now, imagine the horror. Imagine the utter humiliation if your rogue still steals the aggro from the supposed real dps no matter how hard he tries not to.

There is a very simple way for a "real" dps to make sure a rogue will not take aggro. Make sure no rogue is in the group. Problem solved. And you wonder why they don't want Oschkosch.

Well, you do have a point...


Here is my infallible and indisputable list of reasons why rogues should not be allowed into ToD runs:

1) artificers can get all the traps even better than a rogue.
2) it is essentially impossible to get a rogue over 300 hps - making them too squishy to survive part 3.
3) rogues have no STR - so they can't even break DR on the fire ellies on part 1--which is the only enemy in there that they could, in theory, be matched up against (with their evasion).
4) many rogues are halflings - and halflings should not be allowed in ToD.
5) the game isn't so much about builds as it is players - and essentially everyone that plays a rogue is a bad player.

These are simply scientific facts. I will vigorously debate anyone that feels differently using even more proofier evidentials.

I loled.

[Munkenmo]

I seriously had a Wizard drop a Shroud I was hosting because of "too many casters". I cracked up.

Yes, keep believing that was the real reason why I dropped :p

[Bakarne]

Is this the thread where everyone affirms their complete and utter hatred for artificers? Bah, I see it's another rogue thread. How disappointing.

With one AC tank, for ToD normal, I feel pretty confident with one healer (for part 2) and 2 or 3 UMD capable toons. Rogue fits the bill, but idk what percentage of rogues actually use heal scrolls. And don't get me started on artificers - all those bonuses to UMD and nobody ever carries any useful scrolls.

[moops]

Part 2 never failed because of a rogue, but has often been saved by one.

[stoopid_cowboy]

With one AC tank, for ToD normal, I feel pretty confident with one healer (for part 2) and 2 or 3 UMD capable toons. Rogue fits the bill, but idk what percentage of rogues actually use heal scrolls. And don't get me started on artificers - all those bonuses to UMD and nobody ever carries any useful scrolls.

Do I count if I have used (more than twice) my barbarian to scroll hjeal the sully tank/party, not to mention a tank in part 2? :D
Oh yeah, 18brb/2rog. I guess that counts.

yuda :D

[Zonixx]

I accept rogues and then wait until they join and I see that they have 274 hp before I kick them.

[Varashad]

Here is my infallible and indisputable list of reasons why rogues should not be allowed into ToD runs:

1) artificers can get all the traps even better than a rogue.
2) it is essentially impossible to get a rogue over 300 hps - making them too squishy to survive part 3.
3) rogues have no STR - so they can't even break DR on the fire ellies on part 1--which is the only enemy in there that they could, in theory, be matched up against (with their evasion).
4) many rogues are halflings - and halflings should not be allowed in ToD.
5) the game isn't so much about builds as it is players - and essentially everyone that plays a rogue is a bad player.

These are simply scientific facts. I will vigorously debate anyone that feels differently using even more proofier evidentials.

http://i.qkme.me/3556xc.jpg

[Lifeblood]

Sadly, a lot of people are scarred by *Hordo The 6 con Drow rogue 1-hit-wonder trapmonkies. Fear of getting one makes them reject all rogues out of principle.

Rogues and Palis are both classes that should not be available to 28 point builds because of the stat difficulties, and we can avoid some of that.

* Fixed

[TheDearLeader]

(IMG)

He's not serious. It's Sockpuppet. He's da baws.

[danlan]

The key is ... myddo.

[Terebinthia]

Do I count if I have used (more than twice) my barbarian to scroll hjeal the sully tank/party, not to mention a tank in part 2? :D
Oh yeah, 18brb/2rog. I guess that counts.

yuda :D

But it's wonderful to see the brain implosion going on when the person with the barb icon goes "hang on, I'll switch to scroll healing" :D

(I did a Barb 10 / Bard 8 / Rogue 2 build for my barbarian life :) )

[TheDearLeader]

But it's wonderful to see the brain implosion going on when the person with the barb icon goes "hang on, I'll switch to scroll healing" :D

(I did a Barb 10 / Bard 8 / Rogue 2 build for my barbarian life :) )

You want a brain explosion.

Try the Horoth Tank, a no-AC Barb/Rogue 18/2, scroll healing himself.

I'll give you a teaser; it didn't work out too well for him.

[Munkenmo]

But it's wonderful to see the brain implosion going on when the person with the barb icon goes "hang on, I'll switch to scroll healing" :D

(I did a Barb 10 / Bard 8 / Rogue 2 build for my barbarian life :) )

personally i preferred my 11barb 7bard 2 rogue, enough for haste / displace, what's the 8th bard level get ya?

@ TDL - that sounds like a perfect way to pike a tod, IMO it worked out perfectly for him - and now me, thanks for the idea.

[stoopid_cowboy]

personally i preferred my 11barb 7bard 2 rogue, enough for haste / displace, what's the 8th bard level get ya?



I just wee-nee'd out and went 18/2 FB3 horc. I hit 52 self buffed UMD, can hit 54 with rogue skillz boost. High enough to no fail any scroll in game.
I still love at the end of DQ1, "GT on meh!" Bakarne will attest the "Wut!?" factor. :D

yuda

[Sarisa]

I just wee-nee'd out and went 18/2 FB3 horc. I hit 52 self buffed UMD, can hit 54 with rogue skillz boost. High enough to no fail any scroll in game.
I still love at the end of DQ1, "GT on meh!" Bakarne will attest the "Wut!?" factor. :D

yuda

I can confirm the "double take".

[CheeseMilk]

You want a brain explosion.

Try the Horoth Tank, a no-AC Barb/Rogue 18/2, scroll healing himself.

I'll give you a teaser; it didn't work out too well for him.

CON(centration) is NOT a dump skill!

[qwert_yuiop]

Reminds me of the guy who turned me down for his half-full eChrono because he needed "real DPS."

Rogues: Pretending to deal damage since February 2006.

cough cough... barbarian alert

[MaximumCharisma]

It might not have been anything against Rogues or you personally. I get denied to join groups with that special message 2-3 times every day. Sometimes it is inexperienced players who don't want my class for something (wizard because "we have 2 casters for this shroud").

Most of the time, I think its just that people are too lazy to update their lfm with "guildies only atm" etc. And if they are too lazy for that, they certainly are too lazy to click 'O' hit 'create party' and either unclick 'advertise as looking for new players' or decline those in the applicants box.

I consider it to be BM but its the standard which sarlona seems to hold to.

[Hendrik]

Sadly, a lot of people are scarred by the hordes of 6 con Drow rogue 1-hit-wonder trapmonkies. Fear of getting one makes them reject all rogues out of principle.

Rogues and Palis are both classes that should not be available to 28 point builds because of the stat difficulties, and we can avoid some of that.

Quoted for truthyness.

:)

[LafoMamone]

Sadly, a lot of people are scarred by the hordes of 6 con Drow rogue 1-hit-wonder trapmonkies. Fear of getting one makes them reject all rogues out of principle.


What is wrong with booting from group if you accept someone who turns out to have 200 HP and 0 fort?

For many people it is just easier to generalize and not accept anyone from a low HP class, which is very wrong IMO.

[Terebinthia]

personally i preferred my 11barb 7bard 2 rogue, enough for haste / displace, what's the 8th bard level get ya?

@ TDL - that sounds like a perfect way to pike a tod, IMO it worked out perfectly for him - and now me, thanks for the idea.

More time on the spells / songs, since I front loaded the bard levels and rogue levels as much as I could, I think it was 1 rogue, 2 barb, 8 bard levels, 1 level of rogue again, 9 barb. Did I mention I was completely underwhelmed by the concept of a barb life?

(I know I could LR etc but I'm cheap :P)

[Chai]

People who exclude others due to class are doing the server a favor by showing us whose LFMs not to join.

[Rogann]

If its been a couple mins i proceed to send them a tell saying: "I got 44 str unbuffed" or "Im max geared" Then the leader usually accepts me.

However if im leading a tod i 'My DDO' every rogue that hits the lfm. 7/10 times its usually a non-geared dex/int rogue which i decline.

[Dozen_Black_Roses]

Sadly, a lot of people are scarred by the hordes of 6 con Drow rogue 1-hit-wonder trapmonkies. Fear of getting one makes them reject all rogues out of principle.

Rogues and Palis are both classes that should not be available to 28 point builds because of the stat difficulties, and we can avoid some of that.

(bolded for emphasis) You know I immediately thought of this post last night when I saw an lfm from a Pally running IQ quests, stating they had the chest buffer feat and let them open the chests. I couldnt myddo them to see if it was a 28 pt build or exactly how much of a disaster they were as their toon had a myddo error but Im fairly confident it would have been a disaster.

[TheDearLeader]

(bolded for emphasis) You know I immediately thought of this post last night when I saw an lfm from a Pally running IQ quests, stating they had the chest buffer feat and let them open the chests. I couldnt myddo them to see if it was a 28 pt build or exactly how much of a disaster they were as their toon had a myddo error but Im fairly confident it would have been a disaster.

Yeah, Chest-Buffing (any class) scares me, but Paladins...really?

Funny thing is, this dude would probably be accepted into party more easily than, say, a Rogue. :)

[Sarisa]

(bolded for emphasis) You know I immediately thought of this post last night when I saw an lfm from a Pally running IQ quests, stating they had the chest buffer feat and let them open the chests. I couldnt myddo them to see if it was a 28 pt build or exactly how much of a disaster they were as their toon had a myddo error but Im fairly confident it would have been a disaster.


Yeah, Chest-Buffing (any class) scares me, but Paladins...really?

Funny thing is, this dude would probably be accepted into party more easily than, say, a Rogue. :)

Had a Barbarian with the three chest buffing feats in my Reaver's Fate yesterday too...

[tasslehofff]

heres one for you my 561 hp pure rogue got declined for a VoD cause he had no DR breakers
glad he got declined if the leader thinks i need DR breakers and how would he know what i have in the bank or my backpack

[TheDearLeader]

heres one for you my 561 hp pure rogue got declined for a VoD cause he had no DR breakers
glad he got declined if the leader thinks i need DR breakers and how would he know what i have in the bank or my backpack

Quick question... why *wouldn't* you want to break DR?

If you had them, why not link them?

I'm kind of confused what you're getting at in this statement.

[tasslehofff]

i did have DR breakers he never asked just declined me i sent a tell and asked him why i was declined he said no dr breakers

[Lavek]

was it normal?

if it was...rofl for need of DR breakers (even hard)

[tasslehofff]

yes it was on norm

[TheDearLeader]

was it normal?

if it was...rofl for need of DR breakers (even hard)

I just don't know why in this day and age of Cannith Crafting you *wouldn't* have DR Breakers. I mean sure, the DR's not that high on Normal, but I hate yellow numbers.

Edit : Then again, I can't remember the last time I did a Normal VoD.

[Lavek]

I just don't know why in this day and age of Cannith Crafting you *wouldn't* have DR Breakers. I mean sure, the DR's not that high on Normal, but I hate yellow numbers.

Edit : Then again, I can't remember the last time I did a Normal VoD.

because I like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d7OBluielc

if the lfm was normal, yellow numbers are meaningless towards the dps lits give
you can live through as a rog on hard too

for elite you would rather like to have dr breakers

[quantamech]

try apply as a caster, and get used to the "soft reject", acception is a surprise. even in a fast paced battle like edq, most of the rl not want sor take a dps spot, where a cold servant can easily out dps most melees.

[Melcena]

Sadly, a lot of people are scarred by the hordes of 6 con Drow rogue 1-hit-wonder trapmonkies. Fear of getting one makes them reject all rogues out of principle.

Rogues and Palis are both classes that should not be available to 28 point builds because of the stat difficulties, and we can avoid some of that.

Isn't that a little harsh? I mean, come on. There are some fairly good 28 point builds for all classes out there. Yes, there are some problems along the con lines with those builds, but that is no reason to suggest that we take away important classes to new players.

[slarden]

I usually avoided quests/raids where the leader said "picky", "I'm a picky jerk" in the lfm because I didn't really know what they wanted and didn't really want to deal with it.

Recently I joined a few raids where the leader said "picky" and was accepted each time. What I found is that those were some of the worst run raids I've participated in and while they succeeded each time, they really didn't go any better than other raids and were probably worse. When you have a very critical leader nobody wants to speak up and ask questions or acknowledge that they don't know something. In one of the raids the leader and a few others were criticizing a team member for what appeared to be no reason at all - that person recalled and although we succeeded the cleric kept taking pots. A little more dps would have certainly helped.

I've only participated in one of Tobril's new player raids, but it went much better than the same raid advertised as "picky". I didn't hear a single criticism of a player from Tobril and if people had questions they just asked and everyone benefited.

I once asked eony what he was looking for in an epic quest I never ran on epic before - and I told him clearly I never ran it before on epic. His response "I am looking for players". I never heard him once criticize a player in the times I've run with him. I've never been in a failed quest with him.

I certainly won't criticize the people advertising that they are "picky", I think there are some epic quests/raids where being picky is absolutely necessary, but Tobril, Eony and others like them are the people in this game I respect the most. They can take most quests with mostly random players and succeed. They also succeed in a way that makes everyone feel welcome and valued.

[Sarisa]

Isn't that a little harsh? I mean, come on. There are some fairly good 28 point builds for all classes out there. Yes, there are some problems along the con lines with those builds, but that is no reason to suggest that we take away important classes to new players.

I'd rather see 28 point builds go away completely. Give everyone 32 to start, it doesn't do much to the most powerful classes (extra STR or CHA for casters, maybe a couple more skill points), but it would greatly help the weaker classes.

[cdr]

I'd rather see 28 point builds go away completely. Give everyone 32 to start, it doesn't do much to the most powerful classes (extra STR or CHA for casters, maybe a couple more skill points), but it would greatly help the weaker classes.

Anecdotally, I see new players buying 32 point build pretty often. It probably makes Turbine a decent amount.

[Llewndyn]

Here is my infallible and indisputable list of reasons why rogues should not be allowed into ToD runs:

1) artificers can get all the traps even better than a rogue.
2) it is essentially impossible to get a rogue over 300 hps - making them too squishy to survive part 3.
3) rogues have no STR - so they can't even break DR on the fire ellies on part 1--which is the only enemy in there that they could, in theory, be matched up against (with their evasion).
4) many rogues are halflings - and halflings should not be allowed in ToD.
5) the game isn't so much about builds as it is players - and essentially everyone that plays a rogue is a bad player.

These are simply scientific facts. I will vigorously debate anyone that feels differently using even more proofier evidentials.

I was saving that +1 for someone who DIDN'T make me snot in my lunch!

[Chai]

I'd rather see 28 point builds go away completely. Give everyone 32 to start, it doesn't do much to the most powerful classes (extra STR or CHA for casters, maybe a couple more skill points), but it would greatly help the weaker classes.

The issue is the decision making when building a first toon. A new player doesnt have the metagaming knowledge to understand that they can dump most of their stats on a rogue and still get the hardest traps in the game when buffed and geared properly.

So they start with 14 wis, 14 int, 12 con...etc. Their stats end up being bunk for being a damage dealer.

Once they learn the metagame and what gear they need, most wisen up and LR or TR into maxed out str, min maxed dex for the tome they can get, and decent con. They also still get all the same traps they used to be able to get.

[Chai]

Here is my infallible and indisputable list of reasons why rogues should not be allowed into ToD runs:

1) artificers can get all the traps even better than a rogue.
2) it is essentially impossible to get a rogue over 300 hps - making them too squishy to survive part 3.
3) rogues have no STR - so they can't even break DR on the fire ellies on part 1--which is the only enemy in there that they could, in theory, be matched up against (with their evasion).
4) many rogues are halflings - and halflings should not be allowed in ToD.
5) the game isn't so much about builds as it is players - and essentially everyone that plays a rogue is a bad player.

These are simply scientific facts. I will vigorously debate anyone that feels differently using even more proofier evidentials.

http://gifs.gifbin.com/012010/1264091579_kirk_rofl.gif

[allaanon]

OP...

I am typically one of those raid leaders who just drop rogues off my list as soon as I put it up. Just for reference I'm talking eChrono, eDQ2, etc.

To be honest I don't know how much dps you do. I've seen videos of fighters, barbs, etc. and have a lvl 20 fighter. I know how hard they hit, and for the most part they typically have 600+ hp. Rogues, typically but not all of course, have <550hp, and most I've invited are sub 500.

So, door is open. Please educate us on the dps and show me why you should be there over another beater.

[KingOfCheese]

OP...

I am typically one of those raid leaders who just drop rogues off my list as soon as I put it up. Just for reference I'm talking eChrono, eDQ2, etc.

To be honest I don't know how much dps you do. I've seen videos of fighters, barbs, etc. and have a lvl 20 fighter. I know how hard they hit, and for the most part they typically have 600+ hp. Rogues, typically but not all of course, have <550hp, and most I've invited are sub 500.

So, door is open. Please educate us on the dps and show me why you should be there over another beater.

eChrono damage from a twf rogue that is swinging crazy fast--having average buffs (no special buffs, no ship buffs): http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3713322&postcount=52 Back in the day when we were doing eChrono speed runs, we loaded up with rogues for dps. I think we had 12-13 minutes completions (it was one minute off the all time world-wide record). Rogue damage is killer in eChrono (and eDQ2).

[allaanon]

Interested in actual dps long term over a fight... not best case scenario crit if the guys in this form before fort patch with the breeze from the north and only on the 2nd Tuesday of each month, etc.

[KingOfCheese]

Interested in actual dps long term over a fight... not best case scenario crit if the guys in this form before fort patch with the breeze from the north and only on the 2nd Tuesday of each month, etc.

Those are typical numbers.

Assuming no fort--about 200 damage per swing averaging crits and non-crits. Full TWF chain--with 6 clickies of haste boost--which will last all of a dq2 boss fight and all of or most of the boss fights for ToD and eChrono (similar situation to a Kensai in terms of haste boost use--although it is easier for a Kensai to get more clickies).

For boss fort--subtract out the appropriate amount (depending on fort, debuffs, etc)--keeping in mind that the sneak attack is < 50% of the overall damage output.

Still big numbers--keep in mind that with no fort, rogue dps is highest.

I haven't done or seen the calculations since the changes to boss fort--so I can't say %-wise which is highest barb vs. kensai vs. rogue vs. other for eChrono or eDQ. But I can say that rogue dps is sufficiently high that if all the group dps was only rogues, the bosses will go down as fast as you'd care to take them down.

Which is fastest? I don't know. But all are more than fast enough. Rogues are still in the "high" dps category with barbs and kensai. I'll take them interchangeably and will notice no meaningful difference in boss-killing time. The issue with rogues isn't damage output--its survivability. Of course they can be very survivable. But its not as easy to get there as it is with barbs and fighters.

[delsoboss]

Here is a glimpse of rogue DPS: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4321001&postcount=50

[TheDearLeader]

OP...

I am typically one of those raid leaders who just drop rogues off my list as soon as I put it up. Just for reference I'm talking eChrono, eDQ2, etc.

To be honest I don't know how much dps you do. I've seen videos of fighters, barbs, etc. and have a lvl 20 fighter. I know how hard they hit, and for the most part they typically have 600+ hp. Rogues, typically but not all of course, have <550hp, and most I've invited are sub 500.

So, door is open. Please educate us on the dps and show me why you should be there over another beater.


Interested in actual dps long term over a fight... not best case scenario crit if the guys in this form before fort patch with the breeze from the north and only on the 2nd Tuesday of each month, etc.

I have a final tonight (quarters instead of semesters >.<), So I'm a bit too busy to cater to your personal sense of self-entitlement regarding edification of a Rogue's potential. So, if you're looking for a "Highlights" reel of my Rogue in action, you're just going to have to wait.

I have multiple videos of my Rogue up on my Youtube channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/connlaoi). Sadly, most of them are testing very specific parameters regarding SA to Hit, Damage, Helplessness, etc., and are not about showing "max values", or even "regular values" regarding damage. Most of them, I am unbuffed, or barely buffed, whereas these Fighter/Barb videos love to show the toons at their absolute best.

So, for the moment, take this as you will: I have 6 level 20 toons in my Signature. One a KotC (Paladin, 34-point), one a Kensei (Fighter, 34-point), and the Rogue Oschkosch Has a Past Life: Barbarian if you cared to look. They're all there, open for public perusal whenever. MyDDO has my other two level 20s.

I've done the other "Melee DPS" classes, aside from Tempest (Edit : oops, and Monk). What I've found?
The only toon of mine that does more raw single-target damage than Oschkosch is my Water Savant. Oschkosch also gets to be the guy that can manage any (and every) trap in the game, tosses Resurrection (not your piddly Raise Dead) scrolls, and can one-shot a lot of trash mobs just for funsies, including the Orthons in ToD Part III.

Maybe I will do a video sometime in the next few days, when Exams wind down and I have some free time.

In the mean time, why don't you actually "open the door", as you pretend to be doing.

Go MyDDO Public - stop hiding behind the anonymity of a forum persona.
Post your own builds/toons.
Post yourself some Youtube videos - FRAPS to Record, VirtualDub to Encode are my suggestions.

I commend you for coming here and posting at all - but don't do it halfway and expect me to be satisfied.

[allaanon]

given the option between taking Sockpuppet into elite raids or the new construct-heavy U11 content versus a top-geared barb or kensai--one can better maximize group dps by leaving Sockpuppet at home.

Thanks Sock for sharing your numbers, but I believe this comment of yours in another thread still seems true by the numbers I'm seeing so far. I'm truly interested so I'll keep reading on as you folks post but imo they need to buff your dmg a bit after the fort change.


So I'm a bit too busy to cater to your personal sense of self-entitlement regarding edification of a Rogue's potential.

Yeah, not going to get in a flame war with you for no reason. Love to talk numbers/figures/calculations with you but not worth it for comments like that.

[KingOfCheese]

Thanks Sock for sharing your numbers, but I believe this comment of yours in another thread still seems true by the numbers I'm seeing so far. I'm truly interested so I'll keep reading on as you folks post but imo they need to buff your dmg a bit after the fort change.

I've actually changed my tune on LOB, in part. Sockpuppet tears it up on norm. I'd still leave him behind on epic (unless the raid group was set up with the appropriate debuffs--which generally isn't the case).

For dps on norm, I actually prefer Sockpuppet now over my Kensai. Both have sufficient hps to take a drop down blow from the boss. Both do massive damage. But Sockpuppet, unlike my Kensai, can solo heal the tank in a crisis, raise people, and no-fail scroll cast other useful spells (prismatic ray, break enchantment, etc.).

For ToD (most people still run norm or hard), rogue damage eats it up. I'd have to get off my lazy butt and do the calculations, but the numbers certainly seem comparable (and better on norm?) than my Kensai.

[Llewndyn]

I have a final tonight (quarters instead of semesters >.<), So I'm a bit too busy to cater to your personal sense of self-entitlement regarding edification of a Rogue's potential. So, if you're looking for a "Highlights" reel of my Rogue in action, you're just going to have to wait.

I have multiple videos of my Rogue up on my Youtube channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/connlaoi). Sadly, most of them are testing very specific parameters regarding SA to Hit, Damage, Helplessness, etc., and are not about showing "max values", or even "regular values" regarding damage. Most of them, I am unbuffed, or barely buffed, whereas these Fighter/Barb videos love to show the toons at their absolute best.

In the mean time, why don't you actually "open the door", as you pretend to be doing.

Go MyDDO Public - stop hiding behind the anonymity of a forum persona.
Post your own builds/toons.
Post yourself some Youtube videos - FRAPS to Record, VirtualDub to Encode are my suggestions.

I commend you for coming here and posting at all - but don't do it halfway and expect me to be satisfied.

EXACTLY what was going through my head. Run something with a bunch of assassin rogues and post a screenshot of you leading killcount, or even being fast enough to make it in the same room before the dead body animations go away and I will be impressed.

[allaanon]

Your kill count has nothing to do with your dps when it matters and you know it. Being able to attack faster or assassinate does not mean you have more dps on LoB's back.

[LOOON375]

Im not nearly as experienced and knowledgeable as some in this thread. I don't know all of the in's and out's of DPS, nor do I crunch numbers.

Having said that, while delivering sneak attack damage, it sure seems that any of my 3 rogues do more damage and drop bad guys quicker than my Barb and my Kensaii. This includes my halfling assassin that is wielding dual daggers.

While not getting SA damage, my barb and my kensaii own the day however.

But Im of the opinion that Assassin's rule in situational (SA) damage. If you can learn to manage aggro, you will kill everything in site.

During high end raids, my rogues can and will steal aggro from the tank and the other "heavy DPS" if Im not careful.

[bhgiant]

This includes my halfling assassin that is wielding dual daggers.
This made my night, thank you :D

[TheDearLeader]

Yeah, not going to get in a flame war with you for no reason. Love to talk numbers/figures/calculations with you but not worth it for comments like that.


Your kill count has nothing to do with your dps when it matters and you know it. Being able to attack faster or assassinate does not mean you have more dps on LoB's back.

I've sent you a PM while you were still online, first apologizing for the nature of my post, promising you some data, and thirdly asking that you provide this thread with your toons.

Since you were still online and posting, I'm assuming you read the PM. I've yet to see you respond in this thread, or via PM. Should I take this to mean you'd like us to prove ourselves to you, without providing us a frame for reference? (That is, your toons)

[Hendrik]

I like turtles.

That is all.


;)

[allaanon]

I've sent you a PM while you were still online, first apologizing for the nature of my post, promising you some data, and thirdly asking that you provide this thread with your toons.

Since you were still online and posting, I'm assuming you read the PM. I've yet to see you respond in this thread, or via PM. Should I take this to mean you'd like us to prove ourselves to you, without providing us a frame for reference? (That is, your toons)

Don't often check PM's, sorry. Been out most the night so not sure how I was still online. Often browse these forums but obviously by my post count I don't often chime in unless it's a topic I'm very interested in, such as this.

Anyway, I don't need you to prove anything. This is a game which you are taking way to personal. This is nothing against you and I'm not saying rogues suck. All I'm saying is that I've seen hundreds of videos of fighter/barb dps and have a lvl 20 fighter so I know that damage. I am looking for a frame of reference to compare but so far all I've seen is "specific situations", "0% fort" and so on.

My current 20's are Fightnight, Ifhbiff and Ignight, all on Thelanis. How that is relevant to rogue dps I do not know.

Thanks.

[TheDearLeader]

Don't often check PM's, sorry. Been out most the night so not sure how I was still online. Often browse these forums but obviously by my post count I don't often chime in unless it's a topic I'm very interested in, such as this.

Anyway, I don't need you to prove anything. This is a game which you are taking way to personal. This is nothing against you and I'm not saying rogues suck. All I'm saying is that I've seen hundreds of videos of fighter/barb dps and have a lvl 20 fighter so I know that damage. I am looking for a frame of reference to compare but so far all I've seen is "specific situations", "0% fort" and so on.

My current 20's are Fightnight, Ifhbiff and Ignight, all on Thelanis. How that is relevant to rogue dps I do not know.

Thanks.

Okay. My final is done. Well...*that* final is done.

Thanks. I'd actually already found your Alts, but it's good to see that you'll put them out there.

Let's address :


I'm not saying rogues suck

- That's good. Except in your first post in the thread, you stated that you turn the Rogue Icon "off" in raids if you're party leader. You may not say rogues suck, but if you're not bringing them along to the party, well that is a statement within itself. If you feel you're receiving heat in this thread (from me or anyone else), it's probably that.

So, as I've said, I also have a Kensei. He tends to use eXuum, since he's a Falchion guy. Looking at Fightnight, you have 3 more Strength than my guy. We both have eClaw Sets. If the eAntique is any indication, you're a Greataxe Kensei, so x3 Crit Mod. You do slightly more sustained damage due to WF Great Weapon Aptitude + WF Power Attack, I do slightly more Burst Damage due to being able to simultaneously rock Fighter Haste Boost IV + Human Versatility : Damage IV. Being that eXuum is x3 Crit mod, like a Greataxe, but crits much more often, I think that easily makes up for the difference in base damage.

All in all, though, I'd say Fightnight and Kiarnan would do similar enough damage to compare. If you disagree, well, fell free to, but I'd like to know why.

So if you bring your own toon to the party, you assume he's "up to par" for being in the party. Well, as I've said once already, I'm fairly sure Oschkosch ends up being more Party/Raid DPS than Kiarnan, as well as having the added benefit of Utility beyond being a sack of "go hit stuff".

More to come.

[allaanon]

I'll gladly take good rogues I've grouped with before.

However, 99% of the pugs that hit my groups tend to end up being in a clerics bag as Razor Arm trashes their hp. :)

[Grieve]

Allaanon,

Honestly, you seem to have issues with accepting rogues and say they are lacking in DPS even if the issue is that their DPS is somewhat situational, but please don't write off an entire class just because you feel they don't match up to your melee standard, especially, when you admit you've never played one. If you haven't played the class or are willing to understand how much potential they can actually bring to the table, don't pass judgement on it. Based on what you've said, I would challenge you to go build a Strength-based Assassin Rogue equip it with proper DPS gear, play it for a while, and understand the class. After you've done that, I would say you would have grounds for making such a harsh opinion of one of the more complex classes in the game. Until then, I'd recommend being a little more open-minded about classes you have not played yourself.

[TheDearLeader]

I'll gladly take good rogues I've grouped with before.

However, 99% of the pugs that hit my groups tend to end up being in a clerics bag as Razor Arm trashes their hp. :)

But can't that be said of any class?

At least where HP is concerned, that's something you can see. What I'm more worried about tends to be DPS. I've seen Mountains of HPs on Barbarians... only to find they didn't have Power Attack, FBIII (or any PrE, obviously), Healing Amp, etc....they literally were just meat.

I don't see what that has to do with character class.

[allaanon]

It has to do with my personal experience with 300 or so pugged raids.

Yes, a fighter CAN have crappy hp, but my experience has that percentage very low. My experience with pug rogues is that the majority have extremely low hp.

I'm willing to look past a couple hundred hitpoints if the dps more than makes up for it, and it should. I just have never seen it and I would like to.

[Munkenmo]

Don't often check PM's, sorry. Been out most the night so not sure how I was still online. Often browse these forums but obviously by my post count I don't often chime in unless it's a topic I'm very interested in, such as this.

Anyway, I don't need you to prove anything. This is a game which you are taking way to personal. This is nothing against you and I'm not saying rogues suck. All I'm saying is that I've seen hundreds of videos of fighter/barb dps and have a lvl 20 fighter so I know that damage. I am looking for a frame of reference to compare but so far all I've seen is "specific situations", "0% fort" and so on.

My current 20's are Fightnight, Ifhbiff and Ignight, all on Thelanis. How that is relevant to rogue dps I do not know.

Thanks.

how about this.

on average a fighter is ~4-6 str ahead of a similarly geared and well built rogue.
this fighter is likely to have both specialization feats granting +4 damage
focus feats offering +2 to hit
enhancements granting +2 damage
if kensai 3
+2 to hit
+4 to damage
+8 critical damage
increased critical threat range by 1
the fighter is likely to have 80hp more from levels
probably 40hp more from toughness feats
+8 str during power surge
+3 more action boosts.
+4 to hit from bab

A rogue has
17d6 sneak attack (if assasin)
the ability to bypass 10% fortification on all bosses
+12 sneak damage from enhancements
+4 to hit whilst sneak attacking from enhancements
ability to drop construct fortification (for everyone) by 30%
(improved) evasion
umd class skill
ability to insta kill non red named mobs.

if i'm ever iffy about the healers in a raid, i'd much rather have a rogue than a fighter, as the rogue can help scroll heal in a pinch.
in lob 1 rogue with max wrack construct is a godsend, that 30% debuff is amazing for the parties overall dps.

in a decent group with melee using improved sunder, and now destruction / improved destruction all lower fort, a rogue will always be more dps than a fighter on a raid boss.

[allaanon]

say they are lacking in DPS

Just to get one thing straight. I believe rogues do good damage, what I don't believe or am looking to find out is that the damage is worth the liability.

Some rogues that is not an issue. A lot of the ones I've experienced it is an issue.

Getting back to the original point of this thread, that is the concern of the people you are speaking of. Our experience with the class is not positive overall and it leads to those decisions.

[allaanon]

Thank you ftdomen, that lays it out very nicely. Much appreciated.

[TheDearLeader]

Just to get one thing straight. I believe rogues do good damage, what I don't believe or am looking to find out is that the damage is worth the liability.

Some rogues that is not an issue. A lot of the ones I've experienced it is an issue.

Getting back to the original point of this thread, that is the concern of the people you are speaking of. Our experience with the class is not positive overall and it leads to those decisions.

And as I've offered you in rebuttal, can't that be said about any melee class? There's much more to the "liability" equation than a HP value.


how about this.

Thanks for stopping by, Mo. I was going to mention the part about the LoB, but I'm still trying to figure out his Fortification values per difficulty.

-10% Opportunist
-20% Epic Blasting Chime

So by himself, the Rogue has lowered that Construct's Fortification by 30%.

If we add more party members:
-10% Improved Sunder
-4% Destruction DT (Or the same Rogue, if it suits their taste.)

The Construct now sits at 54% lower Fortification than it did when we walked in.

Now, if this is LoB and we have a FvS, even a single stack of Shield of Condemnation is on him, the Lord of Blades is at a 54% Fortification Value. Meaning Rogues will often get Sneak Attack. (This includes Epic, where Devs have confirmed a Fortification Value for the eLoB of 80%)

That doesn't sound situational to me.

[Ayseifn]

Last time I was in LoB on a rogue wrack didn't work on purple named mobs, when did this change?

[TheDearLeader]

Every Pit Fiend and Horned Devil raid boss' fortification is currently 50% on normal, 65% on hard, and 80% on elite. Epic Velah's fortification is 50%. Epic Lailat's fortification is 80%. Even the Lord of Blades left his heavy fort item at home, and is sitting at 80% (even though he really should have the Improved Fort feat).


Further regarding Fortification, I'm going to use this for reference.

Velah + Pit Fiends and Horned Devils -

50%? Joke.

-10% Improved Sunder
-10% Opportunist
-10% Shield of Condemnation
-4% Destruction DT
= 16% Fortification.

Demon Queen's a little more difficult, although one could safely assume that the Shield of Condemnation would be getting a Full-Stack on her, since she attacks so frequently. I'd offset the lower HP by saying that a Rogue would tend to have a Higher Reflex Save, and therefore the Rogue would stay standing and keep doing sustained damage, while the Fighter/Barb may be laying on his rear due to Cometfalls.

eChrono - I'm not sure about the Bloodplate/Razor Arm/Devastator Fortification values.


Last time I was in LoB on a rogue wrack didn't work on purple named mobs, when did this change?

Corrected values in post above. Apparently I was having a very off night. Brain fried after the exam, I guess.

[Lavek]

Further regarding Fortification, I'm going to use this for reference.

Velah + Pit Fiends and Horned Devils -

50%? Joke.

-25% Improved Sunder
-10% Opportunist
-10% Shield of Condemnation
-8% Destruction DT
= Again, it ends up being a negative Fortification Value.

Demon Queen's a little more difficult, although one could safely assume that the Shield of Condemnation would be getting a Full-Stack on her, since she attacks so frequently. I'd offset the lower HP by saying that a Rogue would tend to have a Higher Reflex Save, and therefore the Rogue would stay standing and keep doing sustained damage, while the Fighter/Barb may be laying on his rear due to Cometfalls.

eChrono - I'm not sure about the Bloodplate/Razor Arm/Devastator Fortification values.



Even if Wrack *doesn't* work - I admit, I don't spend a lot of time in LoB - the LoB would only be sitting at 7% total Fortification. Hardly a value I'd be worried about.


just a few corrections

dt rune is -4% fort unless somehow it has changed to improved destruction
and indeed wrack doesnt work on lob


and to all rog haters out there on sarlona...kalopsia is always happy to come and prove you wrong

[destiny4405]

had wrack construct II for quite some time and wasn't happy at all. first, it doesn't proc on bosses. well, would be too good and extra damage was ok, but, the deal breaker is that it doesn't proc off hand attack, so it's not really extra damage.

once u13 came out i dumped it, took HGA str and ate my +4 str tome :)

[destiny4405]

I've actually changed my tune on LOB, in part. Sockpuppet tears it up on norm. I'd still leave him behind on epic (unless the raid group was set up with the appropriate debuffs--which generally isn't the case).

LoB has same fort on all difficulties, 80% (i mean 70% :)), so you're doing same damage on normal and epic.

[Lyle_Vertigo]

I like turtles.

That is all.


;)

Yus.

[brzytki]

OP...

I am typically one of those raid leaders who just drop rogues off my list as soon as I put it up. Just for reference I'm talking eChrono, eDQ2, etc.

To be honest I don't know how much dps you do. I've seen videos of fighters, barbs, etc. and have a lvl 20 fighter. I know how hard they hit, and for the most part they typically have 600+ hp. Rogues, typically but not all of course, have <550hp, and most I've invited are sub 500.

So, door is open. Please educate us on the dps and show me why you should be there over another beater.

The thing why we all see poorly performing rogues more often than other classes is very simple: It's waaaaaaaay easier to notice a poorly built rogue than other melee classes. Rogue means versatile, and on 28-32pt builds you don't have much choice and you definitely won't have everything you want from your character. Add 1d6 hp per level, massive damage even with threat reduction and it's very easy to die if you are not cautious.

You want to have a peek on rogue's damage? Others already gave you some insight linking to other threads and pics. I'll provide you with a link to the "famous" Shade's DPS Challange (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300873). Rogues were excluded from it from the beginning to around 3 months ago. So far, my time (1:50) is the fastest melee you can see. It's ~17 seconds better than the best melee from the "regular" ranking, although i didn't have Shintao set, eClaw set and eStalker Ring then. You can even see that the DPS of not fully geared finesse rogue easily matches with that of barb or fighter.


-25% Improved Sunder
It's -10% actually. Only the penalty to fort save stacks.

[TheDearLeader]

It's -10% actually. Only the penalty to fort save stacks.

Weird, you're right. Funny enough, I have and use it on my Kensei. Wonder how/when I got the numbers mixed up.



dt rune is -4% fort unless somehow it has changed to improved destruction


Man, I really was off my game last night. Thanks.

[KingOfCheese]

LoB has same fort on all difficulties, 80% (i mean 70% :)), so you're doing same damage on normal and epic.

I did not know that. Off to eLOB I go.

[FooWonk]

If its been a couple mins i proceed to send them a tell saying: "I got 44 str unbuffed" or "Im max geared" Then the leader usually accepts me.

I would rather not run raids led by someone that either doesn't understand game mechanics or is lazy. My bet is that in most parties you join after sending a tell, you'll contribute far more than the party leader does.

[Tiemmothi]

I accept rogues and then wait until they join and I see that they have 274 hp before I kick them.

Whew glad my Rogue has 275HP...

[levy1964]

Here is a glimpse of rogue DPS: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4321001&postcount=50

Here is a complete glimpse rogue DSP :
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/5026/screenshot00590.jpg
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3449/screenshot00589.jpg

than remember....never trust this class xD