Beverly Helfbilly Ranged Contender

[tinyelvis]

I was trying to decide what type of ranged toon to TR my multi-lifed sorcerer into. A good ranged toon needs in my opinion a number of things to be a good toon.

* High rate of fire.
* High damage bonus (base item damage really impacts overall damage little)
* Consistent fast movement to kite.
* Self sufficient and healing.

I noticed while running rate of fire tests that a shuriken with rapid shot, Shuriken expertise, and quick draw will have a higher rate of fire than a rapid shot bow. Further, with brutal throw you only need super buff one stat, namely strength (though dex should be as high as possible too for more chances at multi shots). Shurikens are by far the best thrown weapons currently in game. With a high enough damage buff differental over a bow (through things like halfling throwing buffs and strength stat boosts) it was possible theoretically to outperform even a manyshot bow over any 2 minute and 20 second period, especially once 10Kstars was added. See this post below for some practical appliation,

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=274374

However, the more I studied this the more it occurred to me that most all buffs due to strength and what not available to thrown weapons were also available to bow weapons via feats like zen archery and bow strength. Furthermore, making strength your primary stat, like some ranged builds is a nice approach for many reasons. However, since you only net a handful more points of damage over someone else (i.e. 2.5 buff points from stat boost.... ) who makes either dex or wisdom their primary stat while still buffing strength as much as possible, it seemed to me a better idea to make either Dex or Wisdom my primary stat.

So, I decided to return to bow use as opposed to shurikens utilizing Zen Archery. Any bow user IMO would be foolish not to pick up manyshot, which I obviously planned to do. In addition, though, I wanted to implement 10Kstars. This meant wisdom need to be buffed. Dexterity is only needed as a prereq to high end ranged feats. A final Dex of 19 is all that is necessary to pick up manyshot as well as improved precise shot. However, with a good race choice, enhancement buffs, and tomes, a starting DEX of 13 or 14 was all that was needed (I ended up down grading this further as will be seen). And therefore, chose wisdom as my primary stat. A high wisdom (40+) really improves the number of extra 10Kstar shots. This can radically increase rate of fire which is more important than a handful of extra strength bonuses.

Ok, lastly, since I had settled on a bow, I decided to shoot for the moon and add Arcane Archer capability. This ranged toon is loaded down to capacity and bulging with ranged capability like the truck driven by the Beverly Hillbillies. Feats and enhancements are really lean on this build and some corners needed to be cut. So, it is impossible to have all of the other ranged bells and whistles.

Beverly Helfbilly
Race Half Elf with 3 past sorcerer lives.
12 FVS / 6 Monk/ 2 Ranger
rouge dili: For cheap dex buff and back stabs

Starting Stats
S 13
D 16 < - will be buffed to 19 with tomes.
C 13
I 10
W 16 <- spend level stat buffs here
C 12

Feats:
1) Point blank shot; Bow Strength (Ranger)
2) Rapid shot (R)
3) Weapon focus ranged, Zen Archery(Monk);
4) Toughness (M)
6) Arcane Initiate
8) Dodge or Stunning fist (M)
9) Manyshot
12) Maximize
15) Precise shot
18) Improved Precise shot

Enhancements include:
Arcane Archer
10 Kstar
Angel of VEngeance
Ninja Spy I
Ranger Dili enhancements
Stat boosts
Some Light buffs

It was impossible to fit in precise shot and improved precise shot. This is very very regrettable. Essentially the choice is Arcane Archer and rogue bonus sneak attacks vs. Improved precise shot and the human. I elected to go with better burst DPS potential over Trash killing AOE prowess. I am not completely married to the AA approach and might reconsider. I took Dodge for Ninja Spy I and to help hopefully with KI generation (an aspect of this build that I am weakest on). Would welcome any monk advice. As I anticipated, enhancement selection was very tight and confined mostly to offensive buffs. This toon is not a healer (I am sure that will be popular).

This build also benefits from the FVS spell offensive capability which includes blade barrier use, and great self healing. I have never used 10kstars and am not an expert on KI generation, some advice here would be welcome especially toward 6th level monk enhancement selection. I will TR into this build come the update.

*edit: modified the build to include level of wizard. Lost a DC and die of damage off of spells, lost improved crit, but gained improved precise shot and maximize spell. Also reduced starting wisdom from 18 to 16 so I could increase dex enough to take improved precise shot.

*edit: Changed main class to cleric, dropped wiz and added ranger.

*final edit: Returned to the FVS, yeah. Picked up ranger dili and dropped BOW str feat. Now have a divine PRE. Details of this build are shown below.

post final edit: Ranger with rogue dili now and full bow strength is back in.

[wax_on_wax_off]

You need 19 dexterity after tomes but before enhancements to qualify for Improved Precise Shot, enhancements don't count.

Using a wizard level to qualify for AA is a great idea but it excludes Angel of Vengence so I'd go with 2 fighter instead (same amount of feats). This drops you back to 12 FvS though which loses a valuable level 6 slot.

Overall I'd prefer cleric for this build at the moment, I've got an example here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4222951#post4222951).

[tinyelvis]

I really like that cleric build. I might switch over.

WRT your comment, you gain an extra feat with 2 fighters but need to spend one on mental toughness. You also lose another BB die damage. I also realized the mistake on improved precise shot, and need to modify again.

You seem the resident expert in this area, could you elaborate on your angel of vengence comment. AA and AOV are mutually exclusive?

[wax_on_wax_off]

I really like that cleric build. I might switch over.

WRT your comment, you gain an extra feat with 2 fighters but need to spend one on mental toughness. You also lose another BB die damage. I also realized the mistake on improved precise shot, and need to modify again.

You seem the resident expert in this area, could you elaborate on your angel of vengence comment. AA and AOV are mutually exclusive?

To qualify for AA with the wizard level you take energy of the scholar but to get AoV you need energy of the ... favoured soul.

Basically, you can't take the SP enhancement for both classes and that enhancement is required to qualify for each respective PrE. It's totally bogus but that's the way it is, until Divine Avenger is brought out it basically disqualifies Favoured Soul/Wizard Arcane Archer builds.

12 FvS is a horrible cut off point for this build, you have to choose out of blade barrier, heal or mass cure moderate, not very fun. On either build feats are a pain, I'm not sure if I'd prefer IPS or Maximise/empower or maximise and IPS (but no improved critical or empower). My general idea was that with an epic abishai (and, to a lesser extent, chaosrobe) set on the cleric variant you could get CL:17 on blade barrier and divine punishment on a 1 wizard variant (13/6/1). Tough call on whether to include IPS or not though.

[krackythehoodedone]

Ok i like the inventiveness but i have a few points.

For me an ''Archer'' must have PS + IPS. The skill then comes in running about tabbing different enemies and pouring all sorts of nasty debilitating procs through them w/o pulling aggro of them all.

If your going to have a build that delivers one devastating volley against one target. You could do that with a standard melee or the FB111 Bowbarian. At 18/1/1 this delivers a manyshot that will comfortably out DPS anything in the game for 20 seceonds.

Dex. I have a few pointers. Str and Wis are your key damage modifiers. To hit stuff aim for 30 dex at endgame. 36 if your going to go Epic. That is sufficient to hit pretty much everything comfortably.

Ok so with the re-jig what role do you forsee the toon performing in group. Will be party heal capable ? The BB 's will be helpful. So kinda a support toon ?

[tinyelvis]

Based on some good advice, I made the decision to dump a level of FVS and lose improve crit to pick up the wiz level and IPS. Thanks for AA/AOV info. This build is not just feat starved but enhancement starved too. Finding the points to pay for a third prestige line may be tough, but I hate to go without AOV. Maybe I can live without it. Better sleep on it. Went rogue dil instead of ranger for the bonus damage and cheap dex buff, and I want Bow strength feat for the open ended buff there.

I keep hemorrhaging important levels and bleeding off strength to plug holes in the build.

[tinyelvis]

Ok i like the inventiveness but i have a few points.

For me an ''Archer'' must have PS + IPS. The skill then comes in running about tabbing different enemies and pouring all sorts of nasty debilitating procs through them w/o pulling aggro of them all.

If your going to have a build that delivers one devastating volley against one target. You could do that with a standard melee or the FB111 Bowbarian. At 18/1/1 this delivers a manyshot that will comfortably out DPS anything in the game for 20 seceonds.

Dex. I have a few pointers. Str and Wis are your key damage modifiers. To hit stuff aim for 30 dex at endgame. 36 if your going to go Epic. That is sufficient to hit pretty much everything comfortably.

Ok so with the re-jig what role do you forsee the toon performing in group. Will be party heal capable ? The BB 's will be helpful. So kinda a support toon ?

Dex does not play the to hit role here, its wisdom. Dex is set to qualify for feats. I agree with the rest of your points though.

[FengXian]

I was thinking about something similar as a possible completionist life. Would be w/o IPS tho, and waiting on Divine Avenger anyway, to see if it gives some nice bow goodies.

I advice against ninja spy if all you're interested in from it is ki generation. You have to be in sneak mode to increase you ki-generation, the description is not very clear about this. Shadow Fade and 1d6 sneak damage at the cost of 1 feat might not be that good.

edit: this is probably not up to date, but that's what they had in mind for Silver Flame DA


Silver Flame accepts any of the following: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus: Ranged, or Zen Archery, and instead of a melee smite as their Oath, gets a ranged attack, and their Oath mechanic was a little bit different (and wasn't working properly at all ).

[krackythehoodedone]

Shows you how much i know about 10k stars and Zen Archery then. I shall be paying it much closer attention if they make me reset my enhancements.

Both Thrudh and Madmatt have Zen Archery things going on atm and they look promising too

So all you need is enough Dex for IPS. Ofc a high evasion is cool but you cant have everything. It seems fitting everything in is a problem as it is

Their is a really nice synergy between Cleric/Monk/Wis. Much better than FVS.

Post the finished product if you would

[tinyelvis]

I was thinking modifying this a bit. Perhaps

Cleric 11/Monk6/Ranger3

Could have the same feats essentially but get bow strength quicker and have die hard and two weapon fighting as well (not to mention some ranger buffs and favored enemy). Lose the FS AOV and another die on BB, but pick up Divine Might, and have more sixth level spells.

Yes, let me push through the enhancements on the generator but I think this may be what I am looking for. BTW, monk 6 is critical for 10kstar and ninja spy for passive KI generation with the added benefit of speed and extra feat. It takes a village to design a ranged toon.

[slimkj]

Sounds like fun. Are you eyeing primary class of Cleric for the past lives as well as the self-sufficiency? Just wondered if you were looking for a more fun way to get your DC boost before going back to Sorc is all given your past lives on it.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I was thinking modifying this a bit. Perhaps

Cleric 11/Monk6/Ranger3

Could have the same feats essentially but get bow strength quicker and have die hard and two weapon fighting as well (not to mention some ranger buffs and favored enemy). Lose the FS AOV and another die on BB, but pick up Divine Might, and have more sixth level spells.

Yes, let me push through the enhancements on the generator but I think this may be what I am looking for. BTW, monk 6 is critical for 10kstar and ninja spy for passive KI generation with the added benefit of speed and extra feat. It takes a village to design a ranged toon.

I'd go to 12 cleric, radiant servant II is very nice. Problem with ranger is losing another feat. Being a wisdom based build your strength won't be too good anyway so free up a feat slot for by taking ranger dilettante is a strong option I think. It gives the option of improved precise shot and maximise or empower, maximise and improved critical.

A 13 cleric / 6 monk / 1 wizard could have a CL 19 Divine Punishment from the PrE, epic Abishai set and chaosrobe. That along with a decent DC on your blade barrier (from your sorc PLs) and improved precise shot would seem to make for a viable character.

[tinyelvis]

I'd go to 12 cleric, radiant servant II is very nice. Problem with ranger is losing another feat. Being a wisdom based build your strength won't be too good anyway so free up a feat slot for by taking ranger dilettante is a strong option I think. It gives the option of improved precise shot and maximise or empower, maximise and improved critical.

A 13 cleric / 6 monk / 1 wizard could have a CL 19 Divine Punishment from the PrE, epic Abishai set and chaosrobe. That along with a decent DC on your blade barrier (from your sorc PLs) and improved precise shot would seem to make for a viable character.

I originally considered the ranger dilitant. The ranger dili caps out at about a 26 strength, though. I know I can pull in much more strength than that (from items, spells buffs, and other forms) so for me I think I need the bow strength. Also, you don't lose a feat with ranger class if you plan on getting bow strength, so essentially you get 4 free feats to a fighters 2. With three past sorcerer lives to make up for no heighten and very high end game wisdom 40+, the blade barrier will still have a good DC. It should be mid to high 30s.

Divine punishment is one of the main reasons I like the FVS/CLR option. But, additional level only add a +1 base damage. So, I would only net essentially +2 base bonus over an 11th cleric, but would also net 7th level spells. The BB DC is another good point and for me a better incentive.

Stacking Divine punishment, potential BB, and divine might and power backed burst bow DPS will really help boss fights. IPS and BB will help trash mob killing and controlling. I am liking your cleric ideas. This build just might outperform a Bowbarian. Keep in mind, only exclusive Bowbarian strength traits set them apart. All other strength buffs can be had by this build. This doesn't even count the situational 4 sneak attacks (like a 7th level rogue) with equivalent damage boost on average of 14 (equivalent to +28 strngth), or the ranger's favored enemy (equivalent to a +6 strength boost).

If only I could fit in empower.

[tinyelvis]

Sounds like fun. Are you eyeing primary class of Cleric for the past lives as well as the self-sufficiency? Just wondered if you were looking for a more fun way to get your DC boost before going back to Sorc is all given your past lives on it.

If this build falls flat end game, it will at least be a great way for me to level FVS and/or Cleric for completionist and past life buffs (a thing I dreaded doing).

[FengXian]

Ranger 3 will give you no ranger buffs, they get lv 1 spells at lv 4.

I would definitely stop at ranger 2, or maybe even replace it with fighter 2, not sure. Ranger 3 only gives you diehard, pretty worthless unless you want to use it as shintao pre-req, which does not seem to be the case.

You could go ranger 2 for free bow str+rapid shot (and TWF, you'll have to melee at least a bit after all), a FE and sprint boost, or fighter 2 (same bow str+rapid shot, losing TWF but +1 str and haste boost...ranger 2 seems better overall).

So maybe cleric 12 (I wouldn't give up radiant servant II for just 1 level of something), monk 6, ranger 2.

I also would drop IPS on this build, you already have BBs for some AoE, you could spare 2 feats and start with dex 11 instead of 16.

And again, mind NS I passive ki generation works in stealth mode only, it's a pain to keep up in most situations where you'd rather be running, jumping etc.

[tinyelvis]

I will probably dump the ranger 3 for cleric 12.

I don't think losing IPS is a good idea. I also understand your point with ninja I. I will go with ninja I and see how well it works out with the idea of swapping feats later.

[FengXian]

Having played both IPS AA and IPS-less AA, I can tell the main reason rangers or most other AA builds want IPS is because they have no other AoE damage source.
Unfortunately the fact that you need 14 dex for 10kS (and in this particular case, 17 for MS) makes it so that dropping IPS doesn't give you as big an advantage stat-wise as it would if dropping it meant being able to completely dump dex (as it could have been on ranger 11/monk 9 before U12).
You would be able to start with dex 14 (not 11, my bad) instead of 16, which means str/con 16 instead of 14. Nothing special either. I guess the only way to know for sure is testing and seeing if you're ok with just BB or if you actually get a great benefit for IPS despite BB.

I think this kind of build has some potential but as I said I'm gonna wait until Divine Avenger, Warpriest and/or epic levels. This could also be a fun way of making an AA completionist, in order to make use of both melee and caster past lives (at least most of them). In the meantime I'll be waiting for some feedback.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Having played both IPS AA and IPS-less AA, I can tell the main reason rangers or most other AA builds want IPS is because they have no other AoE damage source.
Unfortunately the fact that you need 14 dex for 10kS (and in this particular case, 17 for MS) makes it so that dropping IPS doesn't give you as big an advantage stat-wise as it would if dropping it meant being able to completely dump dex (as it could have been on ranger 11/monk 9 before U12).
You would be able to start with dex 14 (not 11, my bad) instead of 16, which means str/con 16 instead of 14. Nothing special either. I guess the only way to know for sure is testing and seeing if you're ok with just BB or if you actually get a great benefit for IPS despite BB.

I think this kind of build has some potential but as I said I'm gonna wait until Divine Avenger, Warpriest and/or epic levels. This could also be a fun way of making an AA completionist, in order to make use of both melee and caster past lives (at least most of them). In the meantime I'll be waiting for some feedback.

2 ranger is good if you take stunning fist instead of dodge (so light path instead of dark for light side buffs). Stunning Fist on a wisdom based build is pretty brutal and the extra offhand proc from ranger 2 will really help land that. It provides something to other than kite mobs that you get aggro from - quick swap to wraps, stun them etc.

I think while leveling building and having IPS will be more of a liability than an advantage. Plenty of AoE damage is available from Blade Barrier as it is. However, if you want to play the character at cap I think IPS will start to shine if you have CC bows like Alchemical Earth Bow (with water on second tier), Epic Bow of Earth, Epic Frozen Tunic, Crippling Arrowhead etc.

There's a cost though, if you skip IPS and take empower/maximise/empower healing instead then you can plausibly fill a back up healer spot with a combination of bursts and spells (particularly on a 13 cleric / 6 monk / 1 wizard build).

I'd want 14 base charisma on this build if possible for the extra turns for bursts or DMII which is a nice source of damage.

[tinyelvis]

Now that I found a way to get IPS on this build, I am pretty stubbornly set on keeping it. Though I understand your point. I don't really care about party healing or backup healing. There just are not enough enhancement options to make it workable. I imagine most of my leveling will be solo play or with knowledgable folk and friends.

I will have good buffs to charisma, and dont see where I could take points to increase the base value even if I wanted to.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Now that I found a way to get IPS on this build, I am pretty stubbornly set on keeping it. Though I understand your point. I don't really care about party healing or backup healing. There just are not enough enhancement options to make it workable. I imagine most of my leveling will be solo play or with knowledgable folk and friends.

I will have good buffs to charisma, and dont see where I could take points to increase the base value even if I wanted to.

12 strength
19-(tome+possible level ups) dexterity
12 constitution
8 intelligence
14 wisdom
16-(best tome charisma)

This is the starting point for a decent stat spread. Assuming +3 dex and +2 charisma that puts you at 30 points spent.

With gear, self healing and ranged DPS I'd say that a 12 starting con is reasonable (alternatively I might be tempted to start with 14 and then skip toughness - no FvS toughness enhancements to worry about now but that's assuming a +45 GS HP item).

12 strength is the starting point as I'm not sure if you're set on Bow Strength yet or if Ranger Dilettante is an option. If going for ranger dilettante and starting with 12 strength (still reasonably easy to hit the 26 you need to cap it) lets you start with 14 charisma then you'll end up with more damage overall from the +4 damage from Divine Might II.

Left over points straight into wisdom of course - 16 starting is ideal.

[tinyelvis]

Dex does not need be higher than 16. I can easily hit 19 with tome. I think moving charisma with the cleric to 12 is prudent, leaving intel a dump stat.

The cleric has some issues. For one, there is no shot for radiant servant without empowered healing. That leaves divine might as the only decent offensive buff which requires good charisma for the +4 buff. A very high maintenance buff.

The favored soul on the other hand can get 7 or more 20 second action boosts for +5 damage. Plus, I can take the angel of vengeance PRE, which among other things buffs my BB. However, at 12th level there is only one 6th level spell.

So, I could stick with cleric, and
1. Forgo radiant servant
2. or drop maximize for empowered healing, halving my BB damage.
3. or drop improved precise shot, and take both empowered healing, and empower. Reduce dexterity to 14.

Or, go back to FVS and live with sub optimum healing.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Dex does not need be higher than 16. I can easily hit 19 with tome. I think moving charisma with the cleric to 12 is prudent, leaving intel a dump stat.

The cleric has some issues. For one, there is no shot for radiant servant without empowered healing. That leaves divine might as the only decent offensive buff which requires good charisma for the +4 buff. A very high maintenance buff.

The favored soul on the other hand can get 7 or more 20 second action boosts for +5 damage. Plus, I can take the angel of vengeance PRE, which among other things buffs my BB. However, at 12th level there is only one 6th level spell.

So, I could stick with cleric, and
1. Forgo radiant servant
2. or drop maximize for empowered healing, halving my BB damage.
3. or drop improved precise shot, and take both empowered healing, and empower. Reduce dexterity to 14.

Or, go back to FVS and live with sub optimum healing.

I wrote the dexterity and charisma scores trying to make an allowance for a +3 or better tome without assuming it.

Feats as 13 cleric / 6 monk / 1 wizard with ranger dilettante:
7 base: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Ranged, Manyshot, Empower Healing, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot
3 monk: Toughness, Zen Archery, Stunning Fist (or dodge)
1 wizard: Maximise

Feats as 12 cleric / 6 monk / 2 fighter with ranger dilettante:
7 base: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Ranged, Manyshot, Empower Healing, Mental Toughness, Maximise
3 monk: Toughness, Zen Archery, Stunning Fist (or dodge)
2 figher: Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot

Either way you can fit everything in as long as you forgo Bow Strength (what do you expect your end game strength to be anyway? In water stance you'd be looking at 30 max which is only missing +2 damage with ranger dilettante. Rogue dilettante is nice but can't have everything).

[tinyelvis]

I wrote the dexterity and charisma scores trying to make an allowance for a +3 or better tome without assuming it.

Feats as 13 cleric / 6 monk / 1 wizard with ranger dilettante:
7 base: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Ranged, Manyshot, Empower Healing, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot
3 monk: Toughness, Zen Archery, Stunning Fist (or dodge)
1 wizard: Maximise

Feats as 12 cleric / 6 monk / 2 fighter with ranger dilettante:
7 base: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Ranged, Manyshot, Empower Healing, Mental Toughness, Maximise
3 monk: Toughness, Zen Archery, Stunning Fist (or dodge)
2 figher: Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot

Either way you can fit everything in as long as you forgo Bow Strength (what do you expect your end game strength to be anyway? In water stance you'd be looking at 30 max which is only missing +2 damage with ranger dilettante. Rogue dilettante is nice but can't have everything).

There are lots of buff to strength. Rage(s), spells,.... I think the maximum strength in game now is over 100. However, I don't expect to get near that high. 26 strength is a pretty low cutoff though. You have not convinced me to drop the bow strength feat.

I will probably bite the bullet and swap out maximize for empowered healing with the cleric or leave it as is. I just dont see the point of one 6th level spell with the Favored soul.

[maddmatt70]

The build concept sounds good but the comment you are going to get alot is why not just build an artificer. Since your healing aura is based on cleric level not quite sure I like this build even with high healing amp and the like. When you put this build on paper its kind of like why not just build an artificer or why not just make an incredible self sufficient aa like a 11 ranger 9 monk or something build....

[wax_on_wax_off]

The build concept sounds good but the comment you are going to get alot is why not just build an artificer. Since your healing aura is based on cleric level not quite sure I like this build even with high healing amp and the like. When you put this build on paper its kind of like why not just build an artificer or why not just make an incredible self sufficient aa like a 11 ranger 9 monk or something build....

I'll do it for the cleric past life :)

In general, divine power/favour/might/punishment are all decent reasons. Artificer might be better in most ways though :)


There are lots of buff to strength. Rage(s), spells,.... I think the maximum strength in game now is over 100. However, I don't expect to get near that high. 26 strength is a pretty low cutoff though. You have not convinced me to drop the bow strength feat.

I will probably bite the bullet and swap out maximize for empowered healing with the cleric or leave it as is. I just dont see the point of one 6th level spell with the Favored soul.

This is what I have listed for my build:
Str: 26 (14 base +2 tome +6 item +2 rage -2 water stance +2 ship +2 yugo)

Epic Abishai set and +1 exceptional (on kyosho's ring iirc for example) would remove the requirement of rage and yugo - a good thing. Then yugo pots can be backup if ship is lost. Madstone obviously aren't an option (as divine punishment will be a significant portion of DPS). More temporary procs like titan's grip aren't exactly sustainable. Unless I've missed some other obvious massive source of strength?

Putting epic abishai and +3 exceptional onto the build and having all of the above buffs would see your idea having +2 damage over the ranger dilettante option ... doesn't seem worth it to me.

[tinyelvis]

I have not put heavy thought into the max strength, but it surely is much much higher than 26. I am not an expert on the subject but here are some I can think of.

+7 item
+3 exceptional
+ 4 tome
+ 4 cannith combat infusion
+ 2 Rage
+2 Madstone
+2 ship
+2 Store
+2 Yugo
+4 Cookies
+4 Fury effects

Total here is +36.

Add that to my 16 and you get +52. I dont have all of that yet. And many effects are temporary burst effects, but there are times having them is nice. And I do have access to much of it. Plus, there are undoubtedly more and/or more planned for the future. The point is, the potential is there.

I think your ranger dili approach is sound, in fact, it is probably necessary if you want the uber healing side in addition to cutting edge ranged. It would undoubtedly make a more versatile party friendly toon. However, I really want to squeeze as much range as possible out of this guy.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I have not put heavy thought into the max strength, but it surely is much much higher than 26. I am not an expert on the subject but here are some I can think of.

+7 item
+3 exceptional
+ 4 tome
+ 4 cannith combat infusion
+ 2 Rage
+2 Madstone
+2 ship
+2 Store
+2 Yugo
+4 Cookies
+4 Fury effects

Total here is +36.

Add that to my 16 and you get +52. I dont have all of that yet. And many effects are temporary burst effects, but there are times having them is nice. And I do have access to much of it. Plus, there are undoubtedly more and/or more planned for the future. The point is, the potential is there.

I think your ranger dili approach is sound, in fact, it is probably necessary if you want the uber healing side in addition to cutting edge ranged. It would undoubtedly make a more versatile party friendly toon. However, I really want to squeeze as much range as possible out of this guy.

While theoretically these bonuses are sound realistically it isn't possible due to slot limitations or simple absurdity.
You'll have to refresh me on Fury, iirc it is given from a weapon which would uncenter you?
Cookies aren't sustainable (unless you have a significant stack of them personally?)
Store is an option but is it really one you want to use?
Madstone prevents casting and divine punishment is a significant portion of DPS so throw that out.
Cannith Combat Infusion is a 10 second buff with a very low proc rate (1.5%?) the items of which take up valuable slots.
+7 items can only go in a few slots and are unlikely to be included in a maximum DPS setup.
+1 exceptional can definitely go in a slot
+2 exceptional can only go in a few slots - mainly ring but you'd possibly want holy burst here (to generate Ki to power 10k stars).

Show me a gear setup where you are significantly over the strength threshold and I'll gladly concede the point (including -2 strength from water stance).

If, however, a particular setup with ranger dilettante (maybe starting with 12 base strength) let's you start with 14 charisma then you're getting an extra 4 damage from DMIII - equivalent to 36 strength for the times when maximum DPS is important.

Maximise isn't there for party healing so much, it's mainly there for blade barrier and divine punishment. Divine Punishment (CL 18 or 19 possible depending on split) will be a significant portion of this builds single target DPS and kind of trivialises any advantage that bow strength/rogue dilettante has over ranger dilettante.

[FengXian]

If you have a +4 str tome, cool, but +4 CCI, +2 store, +2 yugo pot, +4 cookie (and +4 fury like vengeful fury, blood rage? not sure) those aren't something you want to consider for your sustainable str breakdown (very temporary/occasional as you said). I'd rather count the +6 psionic at this point.

However taking the ranger dilly still means losing some damage since you'll definitely break 30 str even w/o those buffs, and more important, it means losing rogue dilly which is pretty nice.

I would still go 12/6/2ranger. You might even keep IPS and go:

13 str
16 dex (+3 tome)
14 con
8 int
16 wis
13 cha (+3 tome)

Or if you ever decide to drop it, you will have 4 extra points, you could start with str 14 and wis 17 for example. And you'd have enough feats for emp.healing, empower, maximize. And TWF for free.

[tinyelvis]

Your not going to convince me to cap my strength at 26 with a sustainability argument. Manyshot is not sustainable. 10kstars, also not sustainable. Rogue sneak attacks are also not sustainable. Should you not take any of theses options either? Pots and other non sustainable approaches are tools that get pulled out in high need situations (like the first time you run LOB on epic).

I will be sitting at a higher sustained strength than 26 when capped. I will also have the ability to push this value higher in bursts. I don't think its a very good idea to limit the strength in this build to 26 unless I pick up more buffs in the process that directly relate to offensive ranged combat. Going ranger dili reduces strength potential and eliminates my 3 rogue sneak attacks completely. Situationally, that can amount to 10s of less damage point per shot. I think that is a better way to look at it.

One fringe benefit of having some cleric levels is pretty good self healing. It is pretty good here without RS, and the buff to light damage with radiant servant PRE only amounts to +2 points on divine punishment at the cost of 6 action points. The action points would be better spent directly buffing self heal and light damage and crits. The regeneration of turns is nice.. but you cant have everything.

I chose cleric based on good advice and its synergy with the wisdom build (without even considering the radiant servant PRE). I will not miss not having it.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Your not going to convince me to cap my strength at 26 with a sustainability argument. Manyshot is not sustainable. 10kstars, also not sustainable. Rogue sneak attacks are also not sustainable. Should you not take any of theses options either? Pots and other non sustainable approaches are tools that get pulled out in high need situations (like the first time you run LOB on epic).

I will be sitting at a higher sustained strength than 26 when capped. I will also have the ability to push this value higher in bursts. I don't think its a very good idea to limit the strength in this build to 26 unless I pick up more buffs in the process that directly relate to offensive ranged combat. Going ranger dili reduces strength potential and eliminates my 3 rogue sneak attacks completely. Situationally, that can amount to 10s of less damage point per shot. I think that is a better way to look at it.

One fringe benefit of having some cleric levels is pretty good self healing. It is pretty good here without RS, and the buff to light damage with radiant servant PRE only amounts to +2 points on divine punishment at the cost of 6 action points. The action points would be better spent directly buffing self heal and light damage and crits. The regeneration of turns is nice.. but you cant have everything.

I chose cleric based on good advice and its synergy with the wisdom build (without even considering the radiant servant PRE). I will not miss not having it.

What will your strength at level 20 be with decent gear?
Are you going to take Divine Might II?
Have you done a mock up of enhancements yet? (I haven't so you may have a point here.)

In general, this type of build is so marginal and flavoursome that you really have to work hard at getting everything as good as it can be and that probably means utilising the OP Divine Punishment spell which will do much more for your single target DPS than bow strength ever could.

I really do like the TWF'ing given by ranger, it fits very nicely with this build but it's gaining TWF'ing at the cost of maximise or empower healing and I think both of these feats are stronger for this build.

[FengXian]

You could still have TWF, DM II and maximize/emp/emp healing, starting with 14/14/14/8/17/13 on the 12/6/2

[wax_on_wax_off]

You could still have TWF, DM II and maximize/emp/emp healing, starting with 14/14/14/8/17/13 on the 12/6/2

True but IPS is too good to give up if the OP intends to play at cap (while leveling IPS isn't necessary).

I'm suggesting that IPS+Maximise (for bursts and divine punishment)+Empower Healing (for RS to give more DMs and better CL on Divine Punishment) is better than the alternative where you don't get all of these things. At least in terms of single target DPS which is one place that I think the build will struggle (ie, raids).

[tinyelvis]

I see four good approaches.
1. Halfelf (rogue) 12cleric/6monk/2ranger with no divine PREs but open ended STR buff, maximize, and TWF.
2. Halfelf (ranger) 13cleric/6monk/1figher With divine PRE and no maximize
3. Halfelf (ranger) 13FVS/6monk/1fighter With divine PRE and maximize
4. Halfelf (ranger) 12cleric/6monk/2fighter With divine PRE and maximizze

Halfelf (ranger) 13FVS/6Monk/1Fighter {13734}
With Angel of Vengeance II, Ninja Spy I, and Arcane Archer

HP: 264
SP: 1216
AC: 24

SAVES
FORT: 17
REFL: 18
WILL: 20

BAB: +15/+15/+20/+25

STR: 13 16 (+3)
DEX: 16 20 (+5)
CON: 13 16 (+3)
INT: 10 12 (+1)
WIS: 16 25 (+7)
CHA: 12 16 (+3)

No dump stat! Start with 10 intel so I can get UMD and a little jump and balance. 12 Charisma so I can cast 6th level spells eventually. 16 dex so I can get IPS.

Balance: 16
Bluff: 3
Concentration: 25
Diplomacy: 5
Disable Device: n/a
Haggle: 3
Heal: 7
Hide: 7
Intimidate: 5
Jump: 25
Listen: 8
Move Silently: 9
Open Lock: n/a
Perform: n/a
Repair: 1
Search: 2
Spot: 8
Swim: 3
Tumble: 7.5
UMD: 14

Feats:
Point blank shot, toughness (M), Rapid shot (F), Weapon focus ranged, Zen Archery (M), Arcane Prodigy, Dodge (M), Many shot, Maximize, Precise shot, Improved Precise shot.

Enhancements Selected:
Adept of Wind
Arcane Archer (Conjure +2 Arrows)
Arcane Archer (Conjure +3 Arrows)
Arcane Archer (Conjure +4 Arrows)
Arcane Archer (Conjure +5 Arrows)
Arcane Archer (Imbue Acid Arrows)
Arcane Archer (Imbue Explosive Arrows)
Arcane Archer (Imbue Force Arrows)
Arcane Archer (Imbue Slaying Arrows)
Arcane Archer (Imbue Terror Arrows)
Elven Arcane Archer I
Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance I
Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance II
Favored Soul Charisma I
Favored Soul Damage Boost I
Favored Soul Damage Boost II
Favored Soul Damage Boost III
Favored Soul Energy of the Scion I
Favored Soul Energy of the Scion II
Favored Soul Energy of the Scion III
Favored Soul Smiting I
Favored Soul Smiting II
Favored Soul Smiting III
Favored Soul Wisdom I
Fighter Haste Boost I
Half-Elf Ranger Dexterity I
Human Adaptability Strength I
Human Versatility I
Human Versatility II
Human Versatility III
Human Versatility IV
Improved Jump I
Improved Jump II
Improved Ranger Dilettante I
Improved Ranger Dilettante II
Improved Ranger Dilettante III
Improved Tumble I
Improved Tumble II
Monk Ninja Spy I
Racial Toughness I
Silver Flame Exorcism
Static Charge
Ten Thousand Stars

Enhancements are either typically prereqs or important final enhancements. I might drop human versatility IV and pick up some healing amps or another point of wisdom. I like this build and will probably play it. A very solid range build with good blade barrier and Divine Punishment support. He will be fast with wings and solid self healing.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I think only arcane prodigy qualifies for AA, not arcane initiate.

Is the extra level 6 spell slot worth losing empower or improved critical: ranged? IC:R is a significant boost to DPS which is arguably required to be classed as having "solid ranged DPS". On the other hand, empower would significantly boost up divine punishment, blade barrier and cure critical wounds (as a replacement for heal). In the long term you might find also that you don't use BB much at cap so could swap to heal/IC:R.

Please when you post enhancements only post the highest rank in the enhancement.

I think I'd prefer light path to dark on this build, the d6 sneak is nice but the shadow fade won't see enough use as you are very far from a tank (In fact shadow fade will reduce your DPS if your FvS crown is on you). Light path buffs will see some marginal use but importantly will save some AP to get healing amp (which I think is important to make self healing easier) or damage boost IV/extra action boost I.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Oh, regarding your suggested approaches I'd lean towards:
1. Halfelf (rogue) 12cleric/6monk/2ranger with no divine PREs but open ended STR buff, maximise, and TWF.
2. Halfelf (ranger) 13cleric/6monk/1wizard With divine PRE and maximise
3. Halfelf (ranger) 12FVS/6monk/2fighter With divine PRE and maximise (details in previous post)
4. Halfelf (ranger) 12cleric/6monk/2fighter With divine PRE and maximise

I like option 2 or 4 the best but the other 2 can work as well.

Another thought in follow up on previous post, without quicken I don't think that there is a strong enough argument to give up IC:R or empower for heal spell as it will be just as effective to scroll heal and throw an occasional cure critical.

[tinyelvis]

I think only arcane prodigy qualifies for AA, not arcane initiate.

Is the extra level 6 spell slot worth losing empower or improved critical: ranged? IC:R is a significant boost to DPS which is arguably required to be classed as having "solid ranged DPS". On the other hand, empower would significantly boost up divine punishment, blade barrier and cure critical wounds (as a replacement for heal). In the long term you might find also that you don't use BB much at cap so could swap to heal/IC:R.

Please when you post enhancements only post the highest rank in the enhancement.

I think I'd prefer light path to dark on this build, the d6 sneak is nice but the shadow fade won't see enough use as you are very far from a tank (In fact shadow fade will reduce your DPS if your FvS crown is on you). Light path buffs will see some marginal use but importantly will save some AP to get healing amp (which I think is important to make self healing easier) or damage boost IV/extra action boost I.

I might drop the monk pre. The light buffs are pre-reqs for the divine PRE and cant be dropped without dropping the later. People who think improved crit auto qualifies them as a solid ranged have not really thought through the comparison of their build to this one. For one, this build will probably double the rate of fire of most multi classed bow ranged users. Doubling the crit range does not come close to to making up for that.

The advantage of the FVS over the Cleric is that the PRE buffs the offensive spells more. For example, the FVS BB will get as much of a buff from FVS PRE as the empower spell feat. That coupled with the extra die of damage and my guess is that this build would do more damage with BB typically. Plus the FVS PRE can lead to up to a 50% reduction in boss fortification. This can lead to a larger effect on landing criticals than the Improved Critical Feat.

There is always one more feat or one more enhancement to get. Unfortunately, there are only so many points to spend. Wrt your comments on healing. Scroll healing is nice but not as effective as spell healing (even slow WF wiz or cleric/FVS spell healing). When you spell heal, you don't have to swap out your weapon. I am not sure if you have played a scroll healer, but though nice, it is not near as nice as spell healing, even without quicken. Another advantage here is that the FVS can more easily break contact with a mob using wings if necessary to drop a heal.

I think overall the FVS has better offensive oriented enhancements at the levels in question, while the cleric option, though also good, has better healing oriented enhancements.

[tinyelvis]

The following enhancements are required for the PRE's and spells chosen

Enhancements Selected:
Adept of Wind
Arcane Archer (Conjure +2 Arrows)
Arcane Archer (Conjure +3 Arrows)
Arcane Archer (Conjure +4 Arrows)
Arcane Archer (Conjure +5 Arrows)
Arcane Archer (Imbue Acid Arrows)
Arcane Archer (Imbue Explosive Arrows)
Arcane Archer (Imbue Force Arrows)
Arcane Archer (Imbue Slaying Arrows)
Arcane Archer (Imbue Terror Arrows)
Elven Arcane Archer I
Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance I
Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance II
Favored Soul Charisma I
Favored Soul Energy of the Scion I
Favored Soul Energy of the Scion II
Favored Soul Energy of the Scion III
Favored Soul Smiting I
Favored Soul Smiting II
Favored Soul Smiting III
Improved Jump I
Improved Jump II
Improved Ranger Dilettante I
Improved Ranger Dilettante II
Improved Ranger Dilettante III
Improved Tumble I
Improved Tumble II
Monk Ninja Spy I
Silver Flame Exorcism
Static Charge
Ten Thousand Stars

These are the discretionary enhancements
Enhancements Selected:
Favored Soul Wisdom I
Fighter Haste Boost I
Half-Elf Ranger Dexterity I
Human Adaptability Strength I
Human Versatility I
Human Versatility II
Human Versatility III
Human Versatility IV
Racial Toughness I
Favored Soul Damage Boost I
Favored Soul Damage Boost II
Favored Soul Damage Boost III

Not a lot to play with. Ninja spy is expensive. If it does not work out, that will be the first to go netting me about 8 more points to spend. Thats Wisdom II and FS damage boost IV.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I might drop the monk pre. The light buffs are pre-reqs for the divine PRE and cant be dropped without dropping the later. People who think improved crit auto qualifies them as a solid ranged have not really thought through the comparison of their build to this one. For one, this build will probably double the rate of fire of most multi classed bow ranged users. Doubling the crit range does not come close to to making up for that.

The advantage of the FVS over the Cleric is that the PRE buffs the offensive spells more. For example, the FVS BB will get as much of a buff from FVS PRE as the empower spell feat. That coupled with the extra die of damage and my guess is that this build would do more damage with BB typically. Plus the FVS PRE can lead to up to a 50% reduction in boss fortification. This can lead to a larger effect on landing criticals than the Improved Critical Feat.

There is always one more feat or one more enhancement to get. Unfortunately, there are only so many points to spend. Wrt your comments on healing. Scroll healing is nice but not as effective as spell healing (even slow WF wiz or cleric/FVS spell healing). When you spell heal, you don't have to swap out your weapon. I am not sure if you have played a scroll healer, but though nice, it is not near as nice as spell healing, even without quicken. Another advantage here is that the FVS can more easily break contact with a mob using wings if necessary to drop a heal.

I think overall the FVS has better offensive oriented enhancements at the levels in question, while the cleric option, though also good, has better healing oriented enhancements.

Lot of really random stuff in here but I'll try to address your points.

Improved crit is an important feat, basically all other 10k archer builds are going to have it and it represents ~+10% DPS. I generally agree that skipping it is a reasonable decision but the consequence is a reliance on divine punishment for single target DPS and blade barrier for AoE DPS to stay competitive with other 10k stars builds.

Cleric and FvS classes combined with their PrEs have nice offensive contributions to DPS on this build. Cleric receives +2 CL with divine punishment (without gear this is a ~17% DPS increase on Divine Punishment) and +4 damage with Divine Might. Favored Soul gets +2 damage from specialisation and the aura. The aura won't stack with another FvS' aura so any content in which another FvS is around and the main sort of spell DPS is divine punishment will see the cleric build edging out the FvS in terms of DPS. For leveling and soloing the FvS has a big advantage with bonus blade barrier DPS but I don't think that this will actually have a big impact on gameplay (blade barrier is going to make a big impact before epic but PrE level 20 even a wisdom dumped lord of blades gets effective use out of his Blade barriers). Another way of looking at it is that the FvS PrE will just help to make the build competitive with cleric in leveling content during which the superior spell selection and healing of the cleric will really shine.

I think you are confused about light buffs, I meant the light path finishing moves. Smiting line of enhancements to boost up divine punishment should definitely be kept as this is a huge portion of your single target DPS.

My sorcerer is human and scroll heals. I've unlocked Artificer doing significant amounts of solo work in cannith challenges including epics. Scroll healing is definitely the best path for this build with a quick cure critical thrown in when necessary. Though, cleric doesn't have to worry about this at all (though I'd still scroll heal 99% of the time to save SP for divine punishment, blade barrier and combat buffs).

You don't have wings on this build (so your comment about wings seems strange).

In regards to your summary, I think the cleric will have better DPS most of the times that matter due to being able to take IC:R (with 1 wizard or 2 fighter), higher base damage (DMII) and better divine punishment spell. Also, I think 1 wizard opens up force enhancements? Can't recall, I might check tomorrow.

[tinyelvis]

Lot of really random stuff in here but I'll try to address your points.

Improved crit is an important feat, basically all other 10k archer builds are going to have it and it represents ~+10% DPS. I generally agree that skipping it is a reasonable decision but the consequence is a reliance on divine punishment for single target DPS and blade barrier for AoE DPS to stay competitive with other 10k stars builds.



Point 1:
Improved crit is nice. But you are way overstating its importance. It is naive to claim that it adds 10% to your DPS. High end bosses have heavy fort and are highly resistant to criticals, so you statement is just incorrect there. In easy content, you might see an 8 or 9% increase (max for a typical bow) but then its easy content and not as big of a deal. Not to mention a keen weapon effect (like one that appears on a MinII bow) would achieve the same result.

Point 2:
All other 10k star users don't also have manyshot and dont also have good blade barriers and dont also have divine punishment (not to mention spell self healing). The nice bonus that one achieves for improved crit pales in comparison to any one of these effects. Blade barriers, many shot, 10k star and divine punishment reliance wont just make this build competitive with other 10k star users with improved crit, these effects will completely blow them out of the water in damage.

This without even considering the massive amount of extra damage that can be achieved against a foe who has their high fort reduced by a FVS. We are talking up to 50% or more.


Cleric and FvS classes combined with their PrEs have nice offensive contributions to DPS on this build. Cleric receives +2 CL with divine punishment (without gear this is a ~17% DPS increase on Divine Punishment) and +4 damage with Divine Might. Favored Soul gets +2 damage from specialisation and the aura. The aura won't stack with another FvS' aura so any content in which another FvS is around and the main sort of spell DPS is divine punishment will see the cleric build edging out the FvS in terms of DPS. For leveling and soloing the FvS has a big advantage with bonus blade barrier DPS but I don't think that this will actually have a big impact on gameplay (blade barrier is going to make a big impact before epic but PrE level 20 even a wisdom dumped lord of blades gets effective use out of his Blade barriers). Another way of looking at it is that the FvS PrE will just help to make the build competitive with cleric in leveling content during which the superior spell selection and healing of the cleric will really shine.

I didnt say clerics didnt have good bonuses to offensive spells. I said they didnt give as high of a bonus as FVS. First off, you overstate (again) the effect of the CL2 bonus. This results in a +2 bonus, bringing base damage of divine punishment from 16.5 to 18.5 (an increase closer to 12%). A favored soul with AOVII PRE will get a 30% bonus to his blade barrier. +4 divine might is good for a cleric. FVS wont get the specialization you claim at level 13, but they do get a silver flame bonus of +2, and couple this to +5 action boost to damage and in my mind this beats out the cleric divine might.

Blade barriers are used end game plenty, against the hound, Demon queen, shroud boss killing, Reaver, any epic with masses of mobs, or places where kiting is necessary just to name a few instances. This build will have a high enough DC to effect even mobs with evasion.

Now one important thing you did not mention was that a cleric could regenerate his clickies with his PRE. This is very nice, and if it was not for the fact that the FVS heavily dominates the cleric in offensive buffs I would probably reconsider.

[FengXian]

If you use a 19-20 crit bow, IC matters more. But again you prolly won't be relying on those (eThornlord, Unwavering Ardency), since you'd prolly be better off with a lit2 (Min II if you want to carry around crafted bane arrows maybe...otherwise it sucks) due to you damage bonus.

Fort is actually not that high on raid bosses. They get it lowered by FvS's, ISunders, (Imp.) Destructions, you still crit them a lot.

Other 10kS builds will definitely have MS (if we're not talking shuriken builds). They have other sources of damage, and on raid bosses their dps will likely be higher on the long term, considering you won't have that many SP.

This said, the FvS version looks more interesting to me right now, especially because of better (maybe actually viable) BBs. It should get so much better with DA.

P.S.: damage boost IV now is +25% damage, not +5 damage

[wax_on_wax_off]

Point 1:
Improved crit is nice. But you are way overstating its importance. It is naive to claim that it adds 10% to your DPS. High end bosses have heavy fort and are highly resistant to criticals, so you statement is just incorrect there. In easy content, you might see an 8 or 9% increase (max for a typical bow) but then its easy content and not as big of a deal. Not to mention a keen weapon effect (like one that appears on a MinII bow) would achieve the same result.

There is no keen bow that is viable DPS in end game that an archer would ever want to use. LitII, Alchemical Earth/Air, Epic Bow of Earth or Epic Thornlord are your choices.In particular, the Epic Thornlord will get significantly greater effect from Improved Critical and probably remains the highest DPS bow in the game. In addition, at cap you will be focusing more on the CC aspects that IPS brings to the table and Improved Critical has very nice synergy with shimmering arrowhead to apply the crippling effect.

Boss fortification in challenging content is now lower than what it was before. For epic lob, for instance, once the following effects are applied fortification will be 0: weaken construct (blasting chime), destruction, improved destruction (once they are fixed to stack in U13), improved sunder (even my rogue can do this in epic) and a double stack of FvS aura.

Even against 100% fort foes IC:R still adds DPS in the form of bursts (bursting and blasting on LitII for instance).


Point 2:
All other 10k star users don't also have manyshot and dont also have good blade barriers and dont also have divine punishment (not to mention spell self healing). The nice bonus that one achieves for improved crit pales in comparison to any one of these effects. Blade barriers, many shot, 10k star and divine punishment reliance wont just make this build competitive with other 10k star users with improved crit, these effects will completely blow them out of the water in damage.

All 10k star archer builds have manyshot as well. The only builds that might have 10k stars and not have manyshot are melee builds who take 10k stars for a little ranged DPS on the side. 10k star archer builds have other perks to balance out the DPS like kensei specialisation, ranger favoured enemies/rams might or earth stance III enhanced critical modifier. Not having any of these and not being able to fill a healer spot means that you will have to try very hard to compete with these builds and missing Improved Critical: Ranged is going to be a big dampener on your attempts to do so.

On 1 hand a 13 cleric / 6 monk / 1 wizard build can plausibly fill a healer spot in easy epics or as a backup healer with 3 mass cures and 2 feats to back it up. For this cleric build you can get away with gimping your DPS a little as you can bring something besides ranged DPS to the table.

On the other, a FvS build only has ranged DPS and self healing - basically something that any 10k stars build can provide. You need to optimise your ranged DPS and improved critical is a big part of that.


This without even considering the massive amount of extra damage that can be achieved against a foe who has their high fort reduced by a FVS. We are talking up to 50% or more.

This makes the argument for IC:R all the stronger (and kind of screws up your previous point).


I didnt say clerics didnt have good bonuses to offensive spells. I said they didnt give as high of a bonus as FVS. First off, you overstate (again) the effect of the CL2 bonus. This results in a +2 bonus, bringing base damage of divine punishment from 16.5 to 18.5 (an increase closer to 12%). A favored soul with AOVII PRE will get a 30% bonus to his blade barrier. +4 divine might is good for a cleric. FVS wont get the specialization you claim at level 13, but they do get a silver flame bonus of +2, and couple this to +5 action boost to damage and in my mind this beats out the cleric divine might.

Sorry for the miscommunication, I use the terms weapon proficiency/focus/specialisation as I can't be bothered to remember the intimate details of the relationship a FvS has with it's diety.

Blade Barrier is not going to see as much use end game as what you seem to think it will. Anytime that another caster w/BB is around you'll have to put your blade barriers away as in all likelyhood theirs are stronger and they don't stack. Additionally, the actual DPS of the blade barriers is kind of marginal compared to melee DPS so you have to make sure that your kiting isn't preventing melee characters in the party from connecting (or you'll be reducing party DPS).


Blade barriers are used end game plenty, against the hound, Demon queen, shroud boss killing, Reaver, any epic with masses of mobs, or places where kiting is necessary just to name a few instances. This build will have a high enough DC to effect even mobs with evasion.

The DC will be ~3 lower than a similar caster. Unless you have 2-3 sorcerer past lives? If you don't have empower along with maximise and CL:15 (achieved with an epic abishai set) then your blade barriers will be quite mediocre and definitely trumped by a wisdom based cleric or favoured soul or an artificer.

Another point is that cleric can access Cleric Wisdom III for another possible point of DC/more 10k stars love (depending on gear). Not sure if this is possible with enhancements though.


Now one important thing you did not mention was that a cleric could regenerate his clickies with his PRE. This is very nice, and if it was not for the fact that the FVS heavily dominates the cleric in offensive buffs I would probably reconsider.

I assumed you'd done your research.

I don't see any heavy domination in areas that actually matter.

[tinyelvis]

I don't have an epic thornlord bow. Perhaps after a year of grinding and obtaining and upgrading one, then improved critical would be an imperative. However, of the hundreds of shards and seals currently obtained by me and saved in my bags over the years, I dont even have one for this item. Do you even have this epic bow? A person who does definitely designs a build around an item like that.

Actually in this build there is access to three wisdom boosts. However, I am stressing over coming up with a way to take WisII (my third) at a cost of a mere 4 points. Where would I come up with the 6 additional points for WisIII? I am wondering if you have really looked my build over. I posted the enhancements to show how strapped for points I am there. I mentioned a number of times 3 sorcerer past lives as the reason for looking into the divine side of ranged combat.

This build was heavily influenced by your mountain of knowledge. It really only amounts to a small pile added to this mountain. I wonder if you may not be suffering too much from a personal attachment to clerics and your build and play style not to see the benefits and reasons for the choices that were made. In particular the sudden fixation on Improved crit. No mention until recently was made of this feat. I don't see any way to remain a FVS and also have this feat along with the other ranged feats. To do that I would need to add a fighter level and become a cleric.


IF I did that this is what would happen,

I would lose, the silver flame +1 attack and +2 damage. The +5 potential attack and damage boost. I would suffer 1 die and 30% damage reduction in my BB (not to mention other spells). Plus the -2 to saves against divine attacks for mobs in my aura. And I would lose Maximize if I picked up radiant servant (since I would need now empowered healing). This last point would further halve my BB and other spell attacks.

What would I gain? +4 divine might boost, and up to an 8 or 9% increase in weapon DPS due to improved crit. Plus, +2 points to my divine punishment spell if I dropped maximize and also picked up empowered healing. So even though divine punishment was cast at CL+2 damage would be heavily reduced since no maximize was used.
With the build I have my BB will be down only 2 die from max. As a FVS with the sorcerer past lives I will have essentially +5 DC bonus to any in my Aura. That is like the effect of the heighten feat plus two spell focus feats. Only a divine with Maximum wisdom and two focus feats in evocation and heighten will have a higher DC by +1.

I get it. You are heavy into your cleric builds. They are definitely cool. But this is a better approach for me. It does not mean that your builds are bad.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I don't have an epic thornlord bow. Perhaps after a year of grinding and obtaining and upgrading one, then improved critical would be an imperative. However, of the hundreds of shards and seals currently obtained by me and saved in my bags over the years, I dont even have one for this item. Do you even have this epic bow? A person who does definitely designs a build around an item like that.

Actually in this build there is access to three wisdom boosts. However, I am stressing over coming up with a way to take WisII (my third) at a cost of a mere 4 points. Where would I come up with the 6 additional points for WisIII? I am wondering if you have really looked my build over. I posted the enhancements to show how strapped for points I am there. I mentioned a number of times 3 sorcerer past lives as the reason for looking into the divine side of ranged combat.

This build was heavily influenced by your mountain of knowledge. It really only amounts to a small pile added to this mountain. I wonder if you may not be suffering too much from a personal attachment to clerics and your build and play style not to see the benefits and reasons for the choices that were made. In particular the sudden fixation on Improved crit. No mention until recently was made of this feat. I don't see any way to remain a FVS and also have this feat along with the other ranged feats. To do that I would need to add a fighter level and become a cleric.

With the build I have my BB will be down only 2 die from max. As a FVS with the sorcerer past lives I will have essentially +5 DC bonus to any in my Aura. That is like the effect of the heighten feat plus two spell focus feats. Only a divine with Maximum wisdom and two focus feats in evocation and heighten will have a higher DC by +1.

I get it. You are heavy into your cleric builds. They are definitely cool. But this is a better approach for me. It does not mean that your builds are bad.

There's 2 points I'm contending with you at the moment.

Firstly, 12 FvS / 6 monk / 2 fighter is better than your 13 FvS split as you can fit in improved critical: ranged at the cost of the heal spell (which has limited utility lacking quicken compared to heal scrolls). This split will have up to 8% or so better DPS with minimal cost.

Secondly, that 13 cleric / 6 monk / 1 wizard is better due to greater versatility and better DPS in many situations (due to having IC:R, +2 CL on DP and FvS aura not stacking among other things).

I didn't mention IC:R previously as the build you were looking at then had no possibility to fit it in (the one with 2 ranger). Then I was suggesting more crucial feats to include (maximise iirc).

I've played exactly 2 cleric builds to high level and 1 FvS to high level. I'm not emotionally attached to either but it is simple to observe that cleric is a more versatile class for multiclass builds while FvS is a powerhouse when pure.

[tinyelvis]

There's 2 points I'm contending with you at the moment.

Firstly, 12 FvS / 6 monk / 2 fighter is better than your 13 FvS split as you can fit in improved critical: ranged at the cost of the heal spell (which has limited utility lacking quicken compared to heal scrolls). This split will have up to 8% or so better DPS with minimal cost.

Secondly, that 13 cleric / 6 monk / 1 wizard is better due to greater versatility and better DPS in many situations (due to having IC:R, +2 CL on DP and FvS aura not stacking among other things).

I didn't mention IC:R previously as the build you were looking at then had no possibility to fit it in (the one with 2 ranger). Then I was suggesting more crucial feats to include (maximise iirc).

I've played exactly 2 cleric builds to high level and 1 FvS to high level. I'm not emotionally attached to either but it is simple to observe that cleric is a more versatile class for multiclass builds while FvS is a powerhouse when pure.


Feats as 13 cleric / 6 monk / 1 wizard with ranger dilettante:
7 base: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Ranged, Manyshot, Empower Healing, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot
3 monk: Toughness, Zen Archery, Stunning Fist (or dodge)
1 wizard: Maximise

case 1) Is very nice. Comes with 7th level spells (i.e. +1 BB DC). But no improved critical unless you drop one of (maximize, empower healing, or improved precise shot). Of the cleric options, I like this best.

case 2) 12 FvS / 6 monk / 2 fighter essentially trades spell healing for an extra feat. Not necessarily a bad idea. Could take Improved Crit ranged. But I think in this case empower might be a better choice since it would buff DP and BB.

case 3) My current choice
13FvS / 6 monk / 1 fighter or 1 wizard. Now that I think of it, I think I will go wizard instead of fighter for the scroll usage (namely invisibility scroll).

Some other things to consider.
a) Dropping from case 3 to 2 will not only lose 1 die on the BB, but also -1 to DP spell.
b) Going from case 3 to 1 will see in addition to a drop in ranged damage of +3, but additionally a loss of either the cleric PRE and the +2CL bonus to DP,a large across the board spell damage reduction without maximize, or the loss of IPS (though spell damage could improve with the addition of empower).

[wax_on_wax_off]

case 1) Is very nice. Comes with 7th level spells (i.e. +1 BB DC). But no improved critical unless you drop one of (maximize, empower healing, or improved precise shot). Of the cleric options, I like this best.

case 2) 12 FvS / 6 monk / 2 fighter essentially trades spell healing for an extra feat. Not necessarily a bad idea. Could take Improved Crit ranged. But I think in this case empower might be a better choice since it would buff DP and BB.

case 3) My current choice
13FvS / 6 monk / 1 fighter or 1 wizard. Now that I think of it, I think I will go wizard instead of fighter for the scroll usage (namely invisibility scroll).

Some other things to consider.
a) Dropping from case 3 to 2 will not only lose 1 die on the BB, but also -1 to DP spell.
b) Going from case 3 to 1 will see in addition to a drop in ranged damage of +3, but additionally a loss of either the cleric PRE and the +2CL bonus to DP,a large across the board spell damage reduction without maximize, or the loss of IPS (though spell damage could improve with the addition of empower).

Regards to a), yeah but you can cap your blade barrier damage with an epic Abishai set.

Regards to b), where is the loss of 3 ranged damage coming from? I think you mean that one of those things would have to be given up for IC:R? In the case if the cleric split I think IC:R would be the feat to give up (can't get rid of maximise as no other feat can go in the wizard slot and empower healing isn't an option, IMO).

Regards to your options 1 wizard is really nice for the 85% chance on invis scrolls (even 65% chance on fireshield) but I wouldn't choose wizard over righter for just this when fighter gives 16 more HP, haste boost and the possibility to go to 2 fighter for IC:R.

12 FvS/6 monk/2 fighter and 13 cleric/6 monk/1 wizard are both really nice splits.

[FengXian]

Wizard over Fighter gives you one extra feat doesn't it? You can take energy of the scholar I over Arcane Prodigy feat. I don't think invisi scrolls are a good reason since there's plenty of clickies, but Fire Shield ones might be.

[Dendrix]

Regards to your options 1 wizard is really nice for the 85% chance on invis scrolls (even 65% chance on fireshield) but I wouldn't choose wizard over righter for just this when fighter gives 16 more HP, haste boost and the possibility to go to 2 fighter for IC:R.

Doesn't NinjaSpy gives you invis clicky as long as you have a bit of Ki?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Wizard over Fighter gives you one extra feat doesn't it? You can take energy of the scholar I over Arcane Prodigy feat. I don't think invisi scrolls are a good reason since there's plenty of clickies, but Fire Shield ones might be.

Not for a FvS AA. Unfortunately you can't take both energy of the scholar and energy of the scion so it isn't possible to qualify for both PrEs with SP enhancements. 2 Fighter with improved critical: ranged remains the better choice for the OPs split. Empower is a nice choice but it isn't a particularly SP efficient feat and it is only a 25% increase in spell damage over what is provided by maximise. Compared to 10% for free on ranged attacks and better CC given by IC:R and it is a clear choice for me.

Another point is that you don't need an epic thornlord to get very good use out of IC:R. Silver Bow (Church and the Cult), Bow of Sinew (Harbinger of Madness) and Unwavering Ardency (Accursed Ascension) all have expanded critical profiles. I can say for my part that I will definitely make sure that I have an upgraded Unwavering Ardency before I start my archer lives as it is such a sweet weapon. The Shimmering Arrowhead is a reason in itself to pick up the feat. Scroll healing + maximised cure critical wounds is a fine substitute for the heal spell (it might also be a strategy to free up AP if you skip most of the healing enhancements).


Doesn't NinjaSpy gives you invis clicky as long as you have a bit of Ki?

Yes, but honestly I'd take stunning fist over dodge (and go light path).

[FengXian]

Right, forgot about the FvS energy line excluding wizzie's.

What I meant when I said he won't be relying much on 19-20 crit bows, is that his damage bonus (the one that gets multipled in crits) won't be high enough to make those bows a better choice than lit2. That one still benefits from IC: ranged for burst ofc, but not as much as Unwavering Ardency does.

Not sure about how good Shimmering Arrowhead is in end game, is crippling really that nice? I don't think I'd have room for it but if it's that useful with a CC setup I might want one :D

Also, how good would his BBs be? Good enough to solo, say, some eADQ1 fights w/o burning all the mana? Not even sure about how much mana this build will end up with, never capped a healer yet.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Right, forgot about the FvS energy line excluding wizzie's.

What I meant when I said he won't be relying much on 19-20 crit bows, is that his damage bonus (the one that gets multipled in crits) won't be high enough to make those bows a better choice than lit2. That one still benefits from IC: ranged for burst ofc, but not as much as Unwavering Ardency does.

Not sure about how good Shimmering Arrowhead is in end game, is crippling really that nice? I don't think I'd have room for it but if it's that useful with a CC setup I might want one :D

Also, how good would his BBs be? Good enough to solo, say, some eADQ1 fights w/o burning all the mana? Not even sure about how much mana this build will end up with, never capped a healer yet.

Great questions here and I don't know many of the answers.

About 2095 SP with max gear for the level 12 build, 2200 for 13th (including cunning trinket, GS SP, Archmagi and 40 wisdom). Seems enough in general though short terms buffs without extend or high CL will be costly and Divine Punishment will take huge chunks of SP and is a big portion of single target DPS.

In general I'd say you're right about LitII being better though there are enough other modifiers to damage on this build (divine favour, FvS specialisation) to make it worthwhile to keep IC:R if possible (which it is, imo). Even with LitII IC:R is going to give +8% or more DPS against 0% fort and considering the FvS Aura it should definitely be included in this build.

[FengXian]

Roughly 2k SP sounds like enough. 3x PL sorc kinda helps here, did you also count large guild slot 160?

I agree IC: ranged is still useful, in fact I think this build should try to get as much DPS as possible. Despite this I still think IPS should be dropped.

I haven't really tried any heavy CC setup on my AA in epics. Maybe with alchemical earth, frozen tunic and shimmering arrowhead (and maybe imbue fear arrows? has anyone even tried that lately, maybe PK DC is actually good now, and fear itself might be useful; I'll try) you can really have some good CC. So IPS might be more needed than I think now.

However if you could free up 2 feats, wouldn't it help much more? Since you already have a good (I suppose) source of AoE damage, wouldn't it be better to focus on actual DPS output, and more BB damage, through IC: ranged and empower? Also would make you able to save 4 stat points from dex.

I know it was a different build, but I could live w/o IPS on paladin 12 ranger 6 monk 2 (although I did miss IPS on occasion, my dps was much higher than I expected. I actually missed not having any AoE damage, but in this case that is covered).

Plus mass CC doesn't have much synergy with BB, while you could still CC those single targets that won't run through it.

I'm not sure either, I guess the choice is between IPS or maxing the FvS offensive power (+IC ranged). I look forward to see what will come out of this build, and if it will have a chance of beating an Arti seeing all those similarities.

[tinyelvis]

I would give 16 hps up for invis scrolls and probably haste boost. I use them constantly, from level 1 thru capped. They are a must for doing things like running super quick korthos island quest to epic 23 mansion challenges for loot. However, with the way I am building this monstrosity now, I will have pretty high UMD.

I must admit, even with my capped WF sorc, I scroll heal probably 85% of the time. 100% scroll heal is not so bad. Maybe I should give in to your relentless hammering of IC and pick up the two fighter levels. But like was suggested, I think if anything should go, then it should be IPS. I could take IC and Empower. Get a big buff to everything at the cost of hitting multiples. DP would improve, BB would improve, and ranged single target would improve by 9% or more with a better crit bow at all fortitude levels. My main goal was to build a really solid ranged toon. Plus I could use the dex points elsewhere...... Probably charisma or strength.

Gonna try out Ninja spy I and see how it works. Will probably drop it, freeing up like 10 enhancment points. Grab another wisdom and damage boost.

So thats what I am thinking now. **** Can IPS and fighter. Pick up wizard. 13FvS, 6monk, 1wiz. BTW, BBs will be easy high 30s DC. They will be solid even against epic evasion types.

[FengXian]

Since wizard doesn't actually give you the extra feat over fighter, it could be a good choice to actually go fighter. 16 hp are a lot, haste boost I is roughly 7.5% extra damage. If you hit it during manyshot, toghether with damage boost IV from human verastility, it becomes a pretty huge bonus to DPS.

Now I fail to see wizard benefits, aside fire shield scrolls (65%?). You can get fire shield cold procs from frozen tunic. There are also clickies...cloak of ice, bluefire necklace. Pretty rare but obtainable if you want fire shied badly.

Invisi scrolls are easily replaced by clickies too. I got no ML invisi clickie, 3 activations 3 mins each. Not sure how rare such items are but shouldn't be too hard to get. As you get to higher levels, they become more and more common.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Since wizard doesn't actually give you the extra feat over fighter, it could be a good choice to actually go fighter. 16 hp are a lot, haste boost I is roughly 7.5% extra damage. If you hit it during manyshot, toghether with damage boost IV from human verastility, it becomes a pretty huge bonus to DPS.

Now I fail to see wizard benefits, aside fire shield scrolls (65%?). You can get fire shield cold procs from frozen tunic. There are also clickies...cloak of ice, bluefire necklace. Pretty rare but obtainable if you want fire shied badly.

Invisi scrolls are easily replaced by clickies too. I got no ML invisi clickie, 3 activations 3 mins each. Not sure how rare such items are but shouldn't be too hard to get. As you get to higher levels, they become more and more common.

I agree with this. I prefer to have UMD/invis scrolls on all my characters (and in fact all of them do) but I have a nice 5/day invis clicky ring that is fine for my paladin (could presumably do invis scrolls except for ASF but only once or twice have I actually ran out). Nyoko's Necklace is an easily accessible item that gives some higher CL invis clickies too.

Since the conversation came up I've repeated the same point; IPS isn't needed for leveling but in epics it is absolutely essential for creating a worthwhile character. I've played a divine arcane archer without IPS and I was pretty useless in epics as even manyshot wasn't fantastic compared to an eSoS wielding barbarian, assassinating rogue or wailing pale master; at least I could passably heal. This build will obviously have better damage but it is only an increase in matters of percentages.

On the other hand, IPS can bring epic CC to the table with Frozen Tunic, Earth/Water Alchemical Bow and a Shimmering Arrowhead.

Overall, I'd suggest not to build to be the best at DPS; other builds will certainly out-DPS you and doubly so unless you have all the epic gear ready to go when you hit level 20. Instead plan for a bit more versatility as versatility is options and options win quests; IPS fits the bill here quite nicely (it's also what I like about the cleric split).

[tinyelvis]

I thank you guys for your extremely valuable information. I am reading a number of things now that I find amusing and some that make me scratch my head. I know most people dont play like I do, so I will just leave it at that.

IF you are interested, I will let you know how things go. If only the silly mod would come out.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I thank you guys for your extremely valuable information. I am reading a number of things now that I find amusing and some that make me scratch my head. I know most people dont play like I do, so I will just leave it at that.

IF you are interested, I will let you know how things go. If only the silly mod would come out.

Very interested of course, theory crafting can only go so far.

[FengXian]

I didn't realise already had a similar build tested in epics, wax. If w/o IPS it's not good enough, I guess IPS has to stay :)

Yep I'm interested too, I'll probably have to do a similar life for the cleric PL at some point so some feedback can be helpful.

[tinyelvis]

You can only push a build on paper so far. Practical experience with it makes a world of difference. Here is some feedback on this build.

At the last minute I decided to go helf ranger. This locked me into two ranger levels. But enabled me to pick up the rogue dilitant. Both decisions turned out to be incredibly good. I changed the build presented in the first thread to represent this.

I equipped the toon with good crafted items. Notably ranged alacrity at level 1 as well as an acid bursting bow with sneak attack bonus. In addition I alway maintained a +4 or more bonus to important stats thru wands and potions. Finally, I dressed him at level 4 in the frozen tunic. I have leveled him to 10 with the following result.

This toon is simply amazing, high saves, fast, versatile build. I lead the kill count in most any pug but typically solo quests. I would have to say if ever there was an easy button in DDO it is a well built ranged toon. The ability to put out good ranged damage forever essentially is priceless. There have been times in pugs (like proof is in the poison at level) that I ended up carrying the party in my pocket for 20 minutes while I steadily fought my way to a shrine.

Positive Points
1. The rogue dilettante is priceless. The sneak attack procs most first strikes at range. However, it really shines in group play with at least 80% or more of the shots landing as sneak attacks. I shred targets. Only uber built melee can keep up.
2. The ranger levels turned out to be highly useful. I have great jump and balance; Max UMD and Concentration; and a good spot stat.
3. The 10k and manyshot are highly useful (especially the 10k). There are times I land as many as three arrows at a time (I may have landed 4). Bosses melt to this fire, especially if they are aggroed on another party member and I back stab. At 8th level in water stance, my running wisdom was 32.
4. Ninja Spy one was very disappointing at first. I was going to drop it. However, it turned out to be invaluable. I am weakest against regenerating foes with high hitpoints since I really need to manyshot or 10k them. With ninja spy, I can refresh my ki in about 20 seconds, so can always be ready to fight them.
5. I almost never shrine.

Negative Points
1. I am lacking in resistance to magic missile. I do carry a shield wand, but it is not very effective. I also have brooches and such for emergencies.
2. Bosses with high hitpoints who regenerate.
3. No good AOE attack.

My play style is typically elite solo (2 levels above base quest level), however, I do pug from time to time. I am hyper aggressive. I typically charge foes (especially casters) to point blank range then circle and fire. Anyone unlucky enough to get encased in ice gets special attention. In group play, I constantly switch targets focusing on foes that others are fighting. We clear rooms in seconds. Only the melee's higher rate of attacks stops me from blowing the kill count out of the water. Typically even then I gain 30% or more kills. Recently, I gained FvS levels and started mixing command in. This is very effective.

Key to success is the fact that I have all of the best equipment at level. Crafting is a wonderous thing. My main attack bow is now a +4/+6 sneak attack with acid burst. I mix in fire arrows. With my strength bonus, and sneak attacks I do good steady damage and with my speed I can back peddle faster than any mob chasing me. Its odd, but I experience now most quest backwards. I can kite a boss with 15 mobs endlessly and eventually kill everything (this in my opinion is amazing). If the developers do buff ranged further one day, I will be a DDO GOD.

I am now moving to mobs with higher hit points vs my damage output. But I am into the FvS levels now, so hope to augment attacks with spell use. I look forward to BB and Improved Precise shot. I can't imagine running this toon at higher levels without improved precise shot. I just cant imagine it, and wish I had it now.

[ShadowFlash]

To qualify for AA with the wizard level you take energy of the scholar but to get AoV you need energy of the ... favoured soul.

Basically, you can't take the SP enhancement for both classes and that enhancement is required to qualify for each respective PrE. It's totally bogus but that's the way it is, until Divine Avenger is brought out it basically disqualifies Favoured Soul/Wizard Arcane Archer builds.

12 FvS is a horrible cut off point for this build, you have to choose out of blade barrier, heal or mass cure moderate, not very fun. On either build feats are a pain, I'm not sure if I'd prefer IPS or Maximise/empower or maximise and IPS (but no improved critical or empower). My general idea was that with an epic abishai (and, to a lesser extent, chaosrobe) set on the cleric variant you could get CL:17 on blade barrier and divine punishment on a 1 wizard variant (13/6/1). Tough call on whether to include IPS or not though.

Just to nit-pick, Blade Barrier CL=15 (which is good, since that's max dice anyway), and DP is in fact CL=17 with the Greater Abashi Set.

As a point of reference (see boring DP math link in my Signature) CL17 DP will net you approximately 230ish DPS realistically geared for it...

ShadowFlash

[wax_on_wax_off]

Just to nit-pick, Blade Barrier CL=15 (which is good, since that's max dice anyway), and DP is in fact CL=17 with the Greater Abashi Set.

As a point of reference (see boring DP math link in my Signature) CL17 DP will net you approximately 230ish DPS realistically geared for it...

ShadowFlash

CL's:
12 FvS /6 monk /2 fighter: 16 on BB/16 on DP (from epic Abishai and chaosrobe)
13 cleric /6 monk /1 wizard: 17 on BB/19 on DP (as above but radiant servant II as well)

I think this is right?

What's the difference in DP DPS here?

[ShadowFlash]

CL's:
12 FvS /6 monk /2 fighter: 16 on BB/16 on DP (from epic Abishai and chaosrobe)
13 cleric /6 monk /1 wizard: 17 on BB/19 on DP (as above but radiant servant II as well)

I think this is right?

What's the difference in DP DPS here?

Looks right to me, assuming infused chaos robes stack with the greater abashi set. In my testing, I couldn't find a cleric who had lower than 17 levels with the greater abashi set and robes to test (DP caps@20). Anything higher than CL15 on BB is moot, but it is nice with all that wisdom, unlike the typical battle-cleric, DC's are actually nice :)

It's tough to calculate exact DP DPS because of factoring in the 1st 34 seconds to gain the full triple stack and incremental gains based on the HP (read:length of time to kill) of the Boss you're facing. Also, the likely hood of fitting all the gear into a deep splashed build is low. All these variable significantly change the values...more so than 1CL. for example, representing a Level 12 Cleric, with the GA set, Eardweller, Sup Rad, Sup Rad Lore, and maxed smiting lines available at cleric 12 is 155DPS@the 34 second mark, then incrementaly increasing towards the theoretical maximum of 219DPS. My brain hurts too much right now to show more, but the change to cleric level 13 where you can pick up incredible smiting III will raise the DPS more significantly than adding the infused chaos robes CL+1. This leaves the armor slot open for more appropriate gear on a deep splashed toon.

Additionally, Alchemical crafting 1 silver and 1 adamantine kama mystical 2 would net you Sup Rad and Sup Laceration + respective superior lore in each. As a monkcher's melee DPS is already a tad lackluster, these could be used for the ki generation phase AND as centered caster weapons.

If you want specific numbers, I need exact information of gear and enhancements :D

ShadowFlash

[wax_on_wax_off]

Looking back over the OP:

I like rogue dilettante, you mention the dex enhancement though, what's this for? Reflex save?
What do you expect your end game sustainable strengthen be?
You mention spot, did you choose to skip the UMD/Concentration combo that I'd have assumed?
I think I'd have started with lower charisma. Even 8 base is fine (8+2 tome+6 item or 8 base +2 tome +2 ship/yugo +4 eagles splendour in the event of disjunction).


How about the fighter vs ranger question?
Strength shot capped at +8, haste boost, improved critical, +1 strength enhancement, +4 HP
vs
3d6 SA, TWF'ing, 10 extra skill points, sprint boost, FE: evil outsider (+3 damage)

Did I miss anything?
Honestly, not a lot in it either way.
Here's what I think:
1. I enjoy as much variety in end game that I can get so FE:EO is nice but not a deal breaker (if construct was in here too I might have a different opinion).
2. Most of what ranger gives loses it's appeal somewhat at high level.
3. IC:R has CC aspects which is a strength of an AA in epic quests.
4. SA is situational (and doesn't suit my playstyle for this sort of character).
5. I don't see the build having a high strength (14 base +2 tome +6 item +1 exceptional +2 ship +2 yugo -2 water stance +2 rage +3 Abishai =30 sustainable which is only +2 damage over the fighter version. Titans Grip is the only other applicable boost that comes to mind (+6, 1 minute, 3/day). I'd prefer to drop strength and raise other attributes if the final gear set gives flexibility (and use yugo pots only if ship buffs are lost).

If you're level 10 then you're just at the beginning of the true test of the character if you keep up your elite streak. I find level 12 to be the level where things start to get serious.

Anything so far is hardly indicative. I'm playing a fleshy melee pure Artificer (hardly optimal) and most pug groups are simply my audience as I demolish the quest. Last night I tried to join an elite bloody crypt at level 5 and was refused. I sent a tell saying that I was fine and would do my bit. At the end despite there being 3 arcanes I had the second most kills. Moral of this story: gear is everything.

Good luck with the build anyway, I'll look forward to hearing how the build and DPS holds up in raids/epics.

[ShadowFlash]

No AP room to pick up smiting lines on these builds 'eh? That will render DP almost useless. Better to focus on Blade Barriers for gearing then. A shame that the FvS version's smiting pre-req's will go to little use. Radiant Servant Pre-req's are mostly useless anyhow.

ShadowFlash

[wax_on_wax_off]

Looks right to me, assuming infused chaos robes stack with the greater abashi set. In my testing, I couldn't find a cleric who had lower than 17 levels with the greater abashi set and robes to test (DP caps@20). Anything higher than CL15 on BB is moot, but it is nice with all that wisdom, unlike the typical battle-cleric, DC's are actually nice :)

It's tough to calculate exact DP DPS because of factoring in the 1st 34 seconds to gain the full triple stack and incremental gains based on the HP (read:length of time to kill) of the Boss you're facing. Also, the likely hood of fitting all the gear into a deep splashed build is low. All these variable significantly change the values...more so than 1CL. for example, representing a Level 12 Cleric, with the GA set, Eardweller, Sup Rad, Sup Rad Lore, and maxed smiting lines available at cleric 12 is 155DPS@the 34 second mark, then incrementaly increasing towards the theoretical maximum of 219DPS. My brain hurts too much right now to show more, but the change to cleric level 13 where you can pick up incredible smiting III will raise the DPS more significantly than adding the infused chaos robes CL+1. This leaves the armor slot open for more appropriate gear on a deep splashed toon.

Additionally, Alchemical crafting 1 silver and 1 adamantine kama mystical 2 would net you Sup Rad and Sup Laceration + respective superior lore in each. As a monkcher's melee DPS is already a tad lackluster, these could be used for the ki generation phase AND as centered caster weapons.

If you want specific numbers, I need exact information of gear and enhancements :D

ShadowFlash

This is the gearset that I'm planning for my 10k stars monkcher. I might end up going for completionist in which case I'd try these builds with the following gearset at cap:

Head: Epic Helm of Mroranon
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw
Cloak: Wretched Twilight
Boots: Madstone Boots
Trinket: Epic Gem of Many Facets
Bracers: Windhowler Bracers
Belt: GS MinII +45 HP Belt
Necklace: Gilvaenors Necklace/Shintao Cord
Goggles: Epic Raven's Sight
Armour: Epic Frozen Tunic (toughness)
Ring1: Epic Ring of the Stalker
Ring2: Gilvaenors Ring (+2 exceptional strength)/Kyosho's Ring (Holy Burst)
Weapons: Epic Bow of Earth, Epic Thornlord, Earth/Water Alchemic Bow, LitII GS Bow, Air/Water Alchemical Handwraps

However, I would want to swap in Abishai set so it becomes (as a possible example):
Head: Epic Helm of Frost
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw
Cloak: Epic Envenomed Cloak
Boots: Epic Boots of Corrosion
Trinket: Epic Gem of Many Facets
Bracers: Windhowler Bracers
Belt: GS MinII +45 HP Belt
Necklace: Gilvaenors Necklace/Shintao Cord
Goggles: Epic Raven's Sight
Armour: Epic Frozen Tunic (toughness)/Chaosrobe (+10 reflex slotted)
Ring1: Epic Ring of the Stalker
Ring2: Gilvaenors Ring (+2 exceptional strength)/Kyosho's Ring (Holy Burst)
Weapons: Epic Bow of Earth, Epic Thornlord, Earth/Water Alchemic Bow, LitII GS Bow, Air/Water Alchemical Handwraps

The only thing that is missing from this gear lineup (as superior brilliance V clicky and eardweller are swap items) is Lore.

Options for lore (while firing the bow):
Noxious Embers (but lose ranged alacrity)
Blue Dragon Scale (but lose Frozen Tunic CC/Chaosrobe reflex saves)
Alchemical Bow (but lose tier 2 effect which is the strongest)
Cannith Crafted lore item (trinket only, lose Epic Gem of Many Facets and corresponding effects).

Of the 4 the Blue Dragon Scale definitely looks best which is a workable solution though trinket isn't completely out the window either (with corresponding gear reshuffling).

[wax_on_wax_off]

No AP room to pick up smiting lines on these builds 'eh? That will render DP almost useless. Better to focus on Blade Barriers for gearing then. A shame that the FvS version's smiting pre-req's will go to little use. Radiant Servant Pre-req's are mostly useless anyhow.

ShadowFlash

Max in damage (6 AP) and 1 in smiting chance and damage is an absolute no brainer. The rest is less sure. Afaik, you'd be looking at about a 10-12% increase in DP DPS with higher lines on crit chance/damage for 10 AP, not really worth it, imo.

[ShadowFlash]

This is the gearset that I'm planning for my 10k stars monkcher. I might end up going for completionist in which case I'd try these builds with the following gearset at cap:

snip....



I'll work up the math for you tomorrow and PM you with results or do you want it in your monckcher thread? It takes me a while to compute :) Blue Dragonscale is a nice option (and what I think I may use on my battle-cleric), but twin alchemical kamas are your best bet for sure for both BB and DP...with maybe a tier 2 mystical bow for keeping the stack up on DP during 10k/manyshot phases (weapon swap+casting time+weapon swap does hurt bow CC/DPS considerably I'd imagine).

If we were to have changing lore values, I.E. alchemical Rad Lore handwraps, keep the Air 1st tier for +10 stuns if needed and use a clicky for potency, then refresh the stack when on a bow without lore it adds significant timing complexities to calculate, but we could go nuts and try if that's a more viable gearset.

I can't stress enough how big a difference the increased lore (and multiplier) makes to DP.

Just to be clear, we're looking at Cleric 12 or 13?
What enhancements can you squeeze in, any?
No eardweller clicky I assume?
What is the Lore level for Cannith crafting?
I honestly have not gone far enough to tell which enhancements are more important at partial tiers either, so different examples due to AP concerns would help to compare.

And just for reference for those watching :p , my DPS numbers are based off the average of the ENTIRE time DP is running, including the 1st 33 seconds of no triple stack. This is why I always list 2 numbers, the "starting" 34 second mark DPS, AND the theoretical maximum. If you lose the stack...it all starts over, which is why maintaining the stack is most important. IIRC it takes a mob with 45,000 HP's to come close to theortical max DPS (averaged over complete time) due to this mathematical proccess :)

ShadowFlash

[wax_on_wax_off]

I'll work up the math for you tomorrow and PM you with results or do you want it in your monckcher thread? It takes me a while to compute :) Blue Dragonscale is a nice option (and what I think I may use on my battle-cleric), but twin alchemical kamas are your best bet for sure for both BB and DP...with maybe a tier 2 mystical bow for keeping the stack up on DP during 10k/manyshot phases (weapon swap+casting time+weapon swap does hurt bow CC/DPS considerably I'd imagine).

If we were to have changing lore values, I.E. alchemical Rad Lore handwraps, keep the Air 1st tier for +10 stuns if needed and use a clicky for potency, then refresh the stack when on a bow without lore it adds significant timing complexities to calculate, but we could go nuts and try if that's a more viable gearset.

I can't stress enough how big a difference the increased lore (and multiplier) makes to DP.

Just to be clear, we're looking at Cleric 12 or 13?
What enhancements can you squeeze in, any?
No eardweller clicky I assume?
What is the Lore level for Cannith crafting?
I honestly have not gone far enough to tell which enhancements are more important at partial tiers either, so different examples due to AP concerns would help to compare.

And just for reference for those watching :p , my DPS numbers are based off the average of the ENTIRE time DP is running, including the 1st 33 seconds of no triple stack. This is why I always list 2 numbers, the "starting" 34 second mark DPS, AND the theoretical maximum. If you lose the stack...it all starts over, which is why maintaining the stack is most important. IIRC it takes a mob with 45,000 HP's to come close to theortical max DPS (averaged over complete time) due to this mathematical proccess :)

ShadowFlash

I imagine I'd go 13 cleric / 6 monk / 1 wizard and 12 FvS / 6 monk / 2 fighter. I'd stick with either major radiance lore on the trinket or greater arcane lore on the blue dragon scale.

I think that you're overstating the impact of lore/enhancements. 1% of crit chance ~= +1% damage iirc, +.1 crit multiplier equals slightly less than +1% damage. For this reason I'd go full ranks in smiting damage (6 AP), 1 rank in crit chance (1 AP, 3% chance) and 1 rank in smiting damage (1 AP, +.25 multiplier). With Greater Arcane Lore that gives 1d6+level*(1.75+.45)*(2) for base damage (assuming maximise only) and 12% chance to crit for double damage irrc.

I'll definitely have eardweller and superior brilliance V clickies available.

Post it in a thread, the monkcher thread has the cleric and FvS builds in them, not sure how polished they are though mind you so it could go there. I'm sure the OP would appreciate calcs for his build as well. I know that I'd specifically love to know the difference that an epic abishai set will make to my DP.

Cheers :)

[tinyelvis]

I recommend the rogue dilettante over the ranger. Sneak attacks can occur quite often especially when playing with a group. The 3.5 - 10.5 extra damage per shot really adds up (that is multiplied up to 4 for many shot and 10k star, which usually occurs against any unaware foe as the initial shot). Add to this the additional strength over 26 potential. I also definitely recommend ranger levels over fighter. I certainly would not drop bow strength for improved crit.

The divine/monk/x build seems to me to be very powerful and versatile. I like it much better so far than my pure artificer. At this point he sure is much more lethal with better survivability. I anticipate as I level, bow damage vs. mob hit points will drop but FvS spells (especially DP and BB) will play a bigger roll and more than pick up the slack. At that point, I probably would drop the ninja spy and pick up the whole light line.

[ShadowFlash]

Posted some relevant DP math/gear choices in..
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4354934&posted=1#post4354934
It's just easier to keep my math organized on my end if I put it there :)

1 important conclusion is Tier III smite, and Tier II both prayers is better than Tier IV with only Tier I each prayer for the same AP cost (12)

ShadowFlash

[tinyelvis]

Posted some relevant DP math/gear choices in..
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4354934&posted=1#post4354934
It's just easier to keep my math organized on my end if I put it there :)

1 important conclusion is Tier III smite, and Tier II both prayers is better than Tier IV with only Tier I each prayer for the same AP cost (12)

ShadowFlash

Nice optimization of the AP expenditure. I might plot some of this data up and I think i might expand on this for an analysis of the arcane.

[tinyelvis]

Posted some relevant DP math/gear choices in..
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4354934&posted=1#post4354934
It's just easier to keep my math organized on my end if I put it there :)

1 important conclusion is Tier III smite, and Tier II both prayers is better than Tier IV with only Tier I each prayer for the same AP cost (12)

ShadowFlash

I did some calculations. Though this can be true. It is not always true. In general, it depends on the value of your lore item and the size of your enhancement and item bonuses. If I get time, I will write up a little analysis.

Ok lets first write down an equation for spell damage.

Non critical spell damage = (Base spell damage) * (meta magic type effects) * (enhancements type bonuses)

Here,
Base Spell damage (Base) = quoted spell damage accounting for weighted values.
Meta magic type effects (MM) = things like maximize, empower, or sorcerer capstone
Enhancement type bonuses (EB) = Enhancement damage bonus and item bonuses.

If we include criticals then,
Expected damage per event = (1 - critical % chance)(spell damage) + (crit % chance) * (crit damage multiplier) * (spell damage)

Then,
Exp DMG = Base * MM * EB * ((C% * CM) + (1 - C%))

or,
Exp DMG = Base * MM * EB * (Crit) where Crit = ((C% * CM) + (1 - C%))

Now in order for it to be better to take certain critical enhancements that modify Crit over those that fully modify EB in the FvS enhancement line, the following relationship must be true.

EB + .1 < EB * Crit over a particular bound (i.e. going from smiting III to IV).

Let's say EB = 1.3 which represents smiting III bonus and no item bonus, then

Crit > 1 + (0.1/EB) = 1 + (0.1/1.3) = 1.077

In the case where no lore item is present, then taking two tiers of each crit line in smiting (C% = .06, CM = 2) would result in,

Crit = (0.06*2) + (1 - 0.06) = 1.06

Which is less than 1.077. Therefore, since the upgrade to smiting IV cost but 4AP and the upgrade on the crit side cost 6, in this case it would be better to choose smiting IV. It is interesting to note, the higher the value of "EB" the lower the value that Crit needs to be. Also, lore items can increase the value of Crit in two ways. I setup some matrices for Crit based on the different lore items present in the game and produced values for "Crit". These can be used to help determine not only when best to take the critical lines over direct damage boosts but also which individual critical line to take and when. I will probably at some point post a thread and show this data.

Let me know if I made any dumb errors.

[ShadowFlash]

I did some calculations. Though this can be true. It is not always true. In general, it depends on the value of your lore item and the size of your enhancement and item bonuses. If I get time, I will write up a little analysis.

I would be interested in this :) Like I said in my math thread, I just tested for all the gear scenario's laid out. I'm curious where that crossover point is, if there is one. I haven't found a realistic scenario yet that 4/1/1 is better than 3/2/2, but I haven't tested that many combinations. Writing that program for my TI-81 was my best idea in a while :p

ShadowFlash

[tinyelvis]

Again, its a combination between lore item and enhancement buffs. If you have a superior lore item but no item buff, then you are better off going for the damage boost instead of crit. This situation and the one quoted in the previous thread make two cases where you are better off going for the damage line. On the other hand, the same setup with superior brilliance clicky and the crit line is better.

Its this equation,


CRITnew > CRITold * (1 + (0.1 / Eb))CRITold = the current value of your crit enhancements using this equation: (crit% * critmult + (1 - crit%)) = CRITold

Eb = Enhancement bonus + Item bonus

The break off point is the line created by the plot of of CRITnew as a function of Eb. Everything above this lines means the critical situation is better choice (so long as it is costs the same or less than the Eb approach.) I suppose you could incorporate costs directly into this equation by writing the values as functions of cost.

[ShadowFlash]

Plotting is not my forte' to be sure :p, but running your scenario through my program, you are correct. I tested CL's 13-18, and in each case the lack of ANY lore item, brings the 4/1/1 split ahead by almost exactly 2 DPS :) This still assumed a brilliance clicky (who casts DP without one?). I went even further, and came up with this progression (by AP cost and power).

No Lore Item Progression:
4/1/1 = 12 AP
4/2/2 = 16 AP
4/3/3 = 22 AP

ANY Lore Item Progression:
3/2/2 = 12 AP
4/2/2 = 16 AP
3/3/3 = 18 AP
4/3/3 = 22 AP

This was tested with the bare minimum arcane lore. Greater or Superior Lore bring a much larger motivation to go Crit Lines first.

I believe we're saying the same thing now, thanks for the math breakdown. Does this look right to you? If it does, I'll add the basic guildlines to my math thread.

ShadowFlash

[tinyelvis]

I extended your cool study to arcane enhancements with some neat preliminary results. I really need to organize my notes and post a thread. But to spill the beans a little, it seems I was buying enhancements in the wrong order for arcane casting. It seems the best approach often is one point in damage enhancement, then one each in criticals before going back to damage. Finish up with critical line in a non intuitive way. More info later.

The key idea here is that it depends on two things, one.. your enhancement buffs and two, your lore item. Oddly enough it seems the enhancement buffs influence the situation the most. A high enhancement buff shifts the benefit to the critical side. I never would have imagined this.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I extended your cool study to arcane enhancements with some neat preliminary results. I really need to organize my notes and post a thread. But to spill the beans a little, it seems I was buying enhancements in the wrong order for arcane casting. It seems the best approach often is one point in damage enhancement, then one each in criticals before going back to damage. Finish up with critical line in a non intuitive way. More info later.

The key idea here is that it depends on two things, one.. your enhancement buffs and two, your lore item. Oddly enough it seems the enhancement buffs influence the situation the most. A high enhancement buff shifts the benefit to the critical side. I never would have imagined this.

Got to keep this in perspective though. While leveling if you should score a critical it will usually mean lights out for a mob with or without more points in critical damage and in most cases you can 1 shot 95% of trash without any criticals at all.

My level 10 Artificer currently has 5/1/1 in lightning iirc and is using chimera's breath for bastard sword proficiency. It's nice seeing ~150+ crits and even more with lightning motes. For Artificers optimal allocation of APs is especially important but accessing lore is harder (only just now have lightning lore on the rune arm since level 9).

[ShadowFlash]

As I don't graph any of my results, for me now, it's plug the individual parameters, write down the results, and test something else to compare. I wish I could wrap my brain around your formula's better :p I've looked at Artificer's also, and traditionaly it's 4/1/1 and 4/1/1 in 2 lines, but with a lore item equiped, my hunch is it will be better to go 3/2/2 in each as well. I'm way to lazy to test which influences more, the crit %, or the multiplier, when making the hard choice of AP cost (1 AP to spend). I'm anxious to see your results :)

ShadowFlash

[wax_on_wax_off]

As I don't graph any of my results, for me now, it's plug the individual parameters, write down the results, and test something else to compare. I wish I could wrap my brain around your formula's better :p I've looked at Artificer's also, and traditionaly it's 4/1/1 and 4/1/1 in 2 lines, but with a lore item equiped, my hunch is it will be better to go 3/2/2 in each as well. I'm way to lazy to test which influences more, the crit %, or the multiplier, when making the hard choice of AP cost (1 AP to spend). I'm anxious to see your results :)

ShadowFlash

I played around with this once. With the change to the enhancement system it's always better to max out damage before looking at more than 1 in crit chance and damage. 1 extra percentage chance of a crit equates, iirc, to ~+1% DPS and +.10 multiplier to slightly less than +1%.

The order as I see it:
1/0/0
1/1/1 (this changed recently when someone pointed this out to me for which I'm grateful)
7/1/1
7/5/5 (for savant PrE ONLY)

Can go an extra 10 AP for ~10% DPS with the chosen school if desired but honestly I don't see any reason to whatsoever when there are much better things to choose. With superior lore it's probably a bit more than 10% (I was working with major lore).

[tinyelvis]

I post a more thorough analysis here,

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4356706#post4356706

[wax_on_wax_off]

Just saw this (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4357062&postcount=13) post which makes the 1 wizard splash much more appealing for the access to force enhancement for +20% blade barrier damage.

I'm just worried that inwont get around to trying either of the splits that I like before the enhancement overhaul goes and ruins everything (doom!)

[ShadowFlash]

Just saw this (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4357062&postcount=13) post which makes the 1 wizard splash much more appealing for the access to force enhancement for +20% blade barrier damage.

I'm just worried that inwont get around to trying either of the splits that I like before the enhancement overhaul goes and ruins everything (doom!)

Tell me about it...lol...I've got 3 builds planned (all multiclass), and I don't have the guts to roll one, let alone TR right now with the pass coming. My 12fighter/8Bard Tactical Build "probablly" could survive anything they do, as it's only 2 classes, but.......with all the outrage I'm expecting on all the builds it's going to break (my main garunteed), I wouldn't be surprised if turbine was forced to hand out something better than LR+3's to "fix" them. Any deep multi-classes are going to need a slew of +3's, and a whole bunch of timer waiting to repair.

ShadowFlash