splash rogue level for OL/DD

[darthbbd]

I seen numerous quests where you get XP bonus for disabling traps, I was wandering if I have a fighter (with starting 14 INT and as Rogue for skill points, is it worth doing that or will I get to level 10 or so and realize that my skills aren't uip to par, or will just keeping them maxed and using +5 tools be ok and traps or chests/doors won't be an issue.
BTW, this is 100% solo character so partying with rogue is not an option. And I have 32 pt build, so the 14 INT is no biggie, I can still have decent STR/DEX/CON for the fighter.

[Dragavon]

A fighter gets 2 skillpoints per level + int bonus.

With 14 starting int that means 4 skillpoints, 5 if human.

To be useful as a trapsmith you must have maximum skillpoints in search and disable. That is 4 skillpoints already.

Spot is also good to have unless you know where all trapboxes are.

You can make this work if you take more than one level of rogue.

Two levels of rogue give you evasion, and a load more skillpoints to fill in on your skills. Many people make 18/2 builds where they take the second rogue level around level 7-8-9 to maximize their skillpoints.

You can also take more rogue levels, 13/6/1 is a common build.

But if you want a really versatile and strong melee solo build you should look at the exploiter ranger.

[darthbbd]

But if you want a really versatile and strong melee solo build you should look at the exploiter ranger.

Well I made a character that was 1Rogue/2Ranger and by then I was always dying, I liked the tower shield/dwarf axe/2HF combo for the fighter. Thinking dwarf route since they get +2 on search.

[Asmodeus451]

honestly if you want a solo-capable build with trap skills, consider an Artificer

you can even go crazy and try to make a melee one

[Jendrak]

Well I made a character that was 1Rogue/2Ranger and by then I was always dying, I liked the tower shield/dwarf axe/2HF combo for the fighter. Thinking dwarf route since they get +2 on search.

If your serious about doing this I would go 12ranger/6fighter/2rogue and add tempest2 and SD 1. With all the skill points from ranger, which also has spot and search iirc as class skills it should be very easy to kill your disable, search, and spot maxed. In addition you might even have some skill points left to try and add UMD to the build.

Edit: somehow I mistook THF for TWF so this advice is for a TWF build, sorry.

[darthbbd]

Edit: somehow I mistook THF for TWF so this advice is for a TWF build, sorry.

Yeah I'm not too keen on the TWF style, (I tried it out and it didn't suit me) I like the THF for glancing blows, gonna stick with either dwarf axe/shield or bastard sword/shield. Think I'm gonna go the dwarf route since they get enhancements for attack and damage bonuses on the axe where humans don't,

[Doskko]

Whatever you do, remember to get Rogue (or Artificer) as your first level. You'll get the max number of skill points that way. You cannot simply splash Rogue onto a, let's say, 3rd lvl Fighter and expect to open lock or do traps. It just won't work. Plan ahead and you'll be able to handle locks & traps.

[Ryiah]

I was wandering if I have a fighter (with starting 14 INT and as Rogue for skill points, is it worth doing that or will I get to level 10 or so and realize that my skills aren't uip to par

You can achieve decent skills in handling traps by just throwing more Rogue levels into the build. I'm running around with a 12 Fighter/7 Rogue/1 Barbarian skill during my fighter life of completionist. First rogue level at 1 and then a rogue level every three levels or so allows me to keep Disable Device, Search (can't disarm if you can't search them - spot is only a little "oh there may be a trap here" type of thing), and Use Magic Device at full.

A nice little side advantage to this is you'll end up with some sneak attack which can be landed even while solo due to the slowly increasing number of non-weapon Deception/Improved Deception sources (I use a Ring of Lies, but I believe U13 has a necklace that covers it).

[ArcaneMelee]

Well I made a character that was 1Rogue/2Ranger and by then I was always dying, I liked the tower shield/dwarf axe/2HF combo for the fighter. Thinking dwarf route since they get +2 on search.

No offense is meant, but your statements here make it clear that you do not understand the shift that occurs in game play in higher levels.

A +2 bonus to search is significant when you only have 6 ranks, but is practically worthless when you have 23 ranks, +4 heroism, +15 item, +6 exceptional int skills, +2 luck, etc...

On the other hand, you had the wisdom to ask questions, so you're already at a huge advantage. The suggestion to go with ranger instead of fighter is a good one - not only do they get more skill points than rangers, they also have Search and Spot as class skills.

Good luck!

[Asmodeus451]

another suggestion: Barbarian instead of Fighter

[unbongwah]

another suggestion: Barbarian instead of Fighter
The drawback to rogue / barbs is they can't do anything but hit things & chug potions while Raged; so if the goal is to have trap skills too - and UMD natch ;) - it can be tricky learning when to switch Rage on & off without wasting them.

[unbongwah]

I like the THF for glancing blows, gonna stick with either dwarf axe/shield or bastard sword/shield.
The drawback to this approach is that AC becomes progressively more difficult to maintain; using a shield is as much about the free dmg mitigation from Shield Mastery as the AC, IMHO.

While I don't necessarily advocate it, here's a THF rogue / ftr designed to go S&B / SD while still having UMD & trap skills.
Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 True Neutral Dwarf Female
(12 Fighter \ 1 Barbarian \ 7 Rogue)
Hit Points: 376
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 10
Will: 5

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 24
Dexterity 12 12
Constitution 18 20
Intelligence 12 12
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 6 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 5 15
Bluff -2 -2
Concentration 4 5
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device 5 24
Haggle 2 2
Heal -1 -1
Hide 1 1
Intimidate -2 4
Jump 7 12
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 1 1
Open Lock 5 15
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 1
Search 5 26
Spot 3 3
Swim 3 7
Tumble 5 5
Use Magic Device 2 21

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 3 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+3)


Level 5 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 6 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 7 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1.5)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I


Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 13 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+0.5)


Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+5)


Level 15 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Sunder


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 18 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 19 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender II
Enhancement: Fighter Dwarven Waraxe Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Greataxe Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery II


Normally I'd throw Intim in there too, but that pulls pts away from trap skills. Just don't forget to keep a good greataxe handy too; sometimes the best defense is a strong offense. ;)

[LordMond63]

Keep in mind that your build is almost certainly going to be equipment intensive. Not so much rare stuff I don't think but items such as +maximum to Spot and Search, + maximum to DD, etc. that tend to be farily expensive on the AH yet still sell very quickly. I'm not about to say that it's unfeasible, but it's going to require some careful planning to pull off.

Best of luck to you!

[morticianjohn]

Whatever you do, remember to get Rogue (or Artificer) as your first level. You'll get the max number of skill points that way. You cannot simply splash Rogue onto a, let's say, 3rd lvl Fighter and expect to open lock or do traps. It just won't work. Plan ahead and you'll be able to handle locks & traps.

This could be bad advice depending on the build. What is the point of getting more skill points if you can't put them where you want them. In order to maximize your search and disable on an 18/2 fighter/rogue depending on starting INT you may need to take your rogue levels at a higher level so you can put all skill points into the skills you need.

[Hikup]

if you take fighter first, you get 8 skill points vs 32 if rogue.... unless you eat a +4 int tome before that rogue level it's hard to argue against taking rogue first

[Doskko]

This could be bad advice depending on the build. What is the point of getting more skill points if you can't put them where you want them. In order to maximize your search and disable on an 18/2 fighter/rogue depending on starting INT you may need to take your rogue levels at a higher level so you can put all skill points into the skills you need.
Um... in a word... no.

[morticianjohn]

When I first started playing I had a lvl 7 fighter and was tired of waiting on rogues so I took a level of rogue and another rogue level at (I think) 11. My point is that you CAN just take two levels of rogue on ANY character at nearly any level and still do all traps in the game no problems. We are talking about a total noob to the game who just randomly decided he wanted to do traps. It doesn't even take much effort.

I'm one who has never deleted a character. I'd rather just see things through and TR. Maybe things are slightly more optimized to delete and reroll but there are so many ways to fix things with feat swaps or just advancing to the next level that I recommend the OP just take rogue levels on his current fighter project rather than reroll.

[Doskko]

If you did what you said, that is added Rogue to a lvl 7 fighter, you'd have 8 skill points plus INT mod.. so let's say 10 pts. So you could put 5 in Disable and 5 in Search... no locks. Even with +11 gear, you'd still fail most traps that your lvl 8 character would be in. For example, Spies in the House has trap DCs at normal around 24 to 30. The search DC is roughly 18.
Adding rogue to a character to do traps/locks after it has been created is pointless.

[AbyssalMage]

Maxing DD and Search are the only priorities, OL just requires gear for most things, not all(so far, so a skill of 4 should be fine). Fighter gives you 2 skill points (3 if human) like Dragavon said. Add in you INT modifier (+2) and your looking at 4-5 per level. If your only goal is to do those 2 things you should be fine. Personally I would stay away from a 18/2 Fighter/Rogue split because of the lack of skill points on fighter.

I would second the dropping your shield and going pure 2hf w/great axe if your going dwarf. My other advice/caution is that the new "tree" system for enhancements are around the corner w/U13 or U14(?,If they actually come out) so you may lose a lot of power if you splash too deeply.

Not sure how you kept dieing on a Tempest Exploiter w/32 point build. Play style maybe?

[Jendrak]

This could be bad advice depending on the build. What is the point of getting more skill points if you can't put them where you want them. In order to maximize your search and disable on an 18/2 fighter/rogue depending on starting INT you may need to take your rogue levels at a higher level so you can put all skill points into the skills you need.

Ok a fighter starts with (2+int mod*4) skill points and a rouge starts with (8+int mod*4). Considering that starting out you will have a minimum of 4 skills needed for trapping (search,spot,disable, and open lock) that's 16 points right there. Unless your fighter has an int of 18 (or 16 if human) you won't have the skill points to even start well. The other thing to remember is that a cross class skill cost you 2 points per rank so search and spot will cost you 4 points for 2ranks at creation and you won't be able to train the other to at all. Extra skill points into dumb stuff like haggle and jump is always better than burning all your skill points exactly where you want them and still not getting it done.

[Uska]

This could be bad advice depending on the build. What is the point of getting more skill points if you can't put them where you want them. In order to maximize your search and disable on an 18/2 fighter/rogue depending on starting INT you may need to take your rogue levels at a higher level so you can put all skill points into the skills you need.

its never ever ever ever ever better to take your first rge lvl other than lvl 1 NEVER now your 2nd rge level yes you take that later to help you skills

[HungarianRhapsody]

The drawback to rogue / barbs is they can't do anything but hit things & chug potions while Raged; so if the goal is to have trap skills too - and UMD natch ;) - it can be tricky learning when to switch Rage on & off without wasting them.

I have a Barbarian Rogue and I do enjoy him quite a bit

Most quests have very few (if any) traps. In those quests, I rage and slaughter.

In quests with lot of traps or if I'm actively disabling traps for the XP bonus, I just don't bother with rage. I still slaughter enemies just fine, but it takes a couple of seconds more per fight to finish the slaughter. I still rage at the end of the quest if there is a boss fight.

It's also very nice knowing that full ranks of UMD mean that I'll get to use Heal scrolls eventually - something that isn't available to most Barbarians. I obviously won't be able to use them while raged, but it's still a very nice option to have.

[Asmodeus451]

I have a Barbarian Rogue and I do enjoy him quite a bit

Most quests have very few (if any) traps. In those quests, I rage and slaughter.

In quests with lot of traps or if I'm actively disabling traps for the XP bonus, I just don't bother with rage. I still slaughter enemies just fine, but it takes a couple of seconds more per fight to finish the slaughter. I still rage at the end of the quest if there is a boss fight.

It's also very nice knowing that full ranks of UMD mean that I'll get to use Heal scrolls eventually - something that isn't available to most Barbarians. I obviously won't be able to use them while raged, but it's still a very nice option to have.


this. all of it

i'd also like to add/point out Barbs CAN dismiss their Rage early, if they need to

[HungarianRhapsody]

One more thing to consider: If you want to find and disable traps, you will need "level appropriate" gear that adds to your Search and Disable Device skills. That means the best +search and +disable device item that you can wear based on the minimum level requirement for that skill bonus. You'll also need potions of Fox's Cunning (or a +Int item once you can wear +4 or better) and potions of Heroism for another +2 to all skills.

Gear matters just as much as skill points if you want to successfully find and disable traps. Thankfully, that gear is much easier to acquire now that Cannith crafting exists, but it's still something that you'll have to actively work toward. If you do decide to make a Rogue of some kind (I do like Barbarian Rogues better than Fighter Rogues because Barbarians get more skill points per level and I also like the faster run speed), then make a post in the Marketplace subforum of your server saying that you want to buy some cannith crafted shards of skill bonus for Search, Disable Device and Open Locks. Someone will be able to hook you up for a fair price. If it's on Argonessen, I have a friend that I can pester into making them for you for free if you PM me your character's name once he's created.

[morticianjohn]

If you did what you said, that is added Rogue to a lvl 7 fighter, you'd have 8 skill points plus INT mod.. so let's say 10 pts. So you could put 5 in Disable and 5 in Search... no locks. Even with +11 gear, you'd still fail most traps that your lvl 8 character would be in. For example, Spies in the House has trap DCs at normal around 24 to 30. The search DC is roughly 18.
Adding rogue to a character to do traps/locks after it has been created is pointless.

Ok, you got me. I misread the OP. I thought he had a fighter and was wondering if adding rogue levels would be a good idea when in fact he was thinking of rolling up a new toon. Of course in light of this taking the rogue level first is the best option. My point was merely that there is no need to reroll a toon in progress if you feel the need to do traps on a whim.

I started with 14 int on a fighter for combat expertise. At level 7 I realized that it was going to be way too expensive to get the AC gear (+5 mithral full plate, +5 tower shield etc....) so I decided to respec for dps about that same time I felt it would be nice to be able to do the traps. Too easy, take 2 levels of rogue, lose 1 BAB, fighter capstone, and a few HP's to get trap bonus throughout leveling, evasion (whenever I take the 2nd rogue level) and sneak attack damage. Seems like a no brainer. Why am I going to re roll my 7th level toon when I can get everything I need over the next 3 levels anyway. With 1 rogue level taken at level 8 I had a 6 ranks in search +1 enhancement +4 int mod (with fox's cunning) +7 item, +2 heroism pot, and the human skills boost for +4 when needed. DD is the same with a +7 bonus from +5 thieves tools. I was newerish to the game so I probably wasn't running everything on elite so the traps were well within my range.

This life I splashed rogue on my pally and did many of the traps in elite VoN 5 at level 11. Of course I took my first level as rogue this time around ;)