Savant with AA as alternate damage, need help

[bendarel]

The basic idea of this build is to rely on spells most of time but still have an alternate way to still generate damage when SP are getting low or when you don't need to cast that much spells but don't want to just sit on your hands waiting for the rest of the group to clear everything out.

And well, obviously I need help with it. The stats are spreads a abit everywhere, it does provide a nice touch for the Silver Flame healing pots but that aside, I feel that I could raise the CHA to 18, I am just unsure about lowering too much CON or DEX since they both help a bit in the survability, specially at lower lvls.

I guess WIS and INT could be used as dump down to 8 both and raise CHA up to 18.

The Pally dilly is obviously for the small save bonus as my current build has 2 pally and rest goes into Sorc and I love the high save value as I don't get it as often on spells with saves allowed.

The AA part gets bumped only during the last few levels and I felt that since my AB would suck the chrome out of a antique car bumper I was thinking I could rely on the Salying Arrow for a bump in damage during non boss/unique/raid encounters.

Anyway, I am listening to all possible advices or have another build pointed to me for a Sorc with non SP alternate DPS.



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.12.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 True Neutral Half-Elf Male
(20 Sorcerer)
Hit Points: 182
Spell Points: 2023
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 10
Will: 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 10 10
Dexterity 14 14
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 14 14
Wisdom 10 10
Charisma 16 24

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 2 8
Bluff 7 11
Concentration 6 6
Diplomacy 3 7
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 5 9
Heal 0 0
Hide 2 2
Intimidate 3 7
Jump 0 0
Listen 0 0
Move Silently 2 2
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 2
Search 2 2
Spot 0 0
Swim 0 0
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 5 9

Level 1 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Paladin
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 2 (Sorcerer)


Level 3 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Conjuration


Level 4 (Sorcerer)


Level 5 (Sorcerer)


Level 6 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Earth Savant I
Enhancement: Corrosive Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Corrosive Spellcasting II
Enhancement: Glacial Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Deadly Acid I
Enhancement: Deadly Ice I
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation I
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation II
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation III
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma I


Level 7 (Sorcerer)


Level 8 (Sorcerer)


Level 9 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration


Level 10 (Sorcerer)


Level 11 (Sorcerer)


Level 12 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity I
Enhancement: Improved Paladin Dilettante I
Enhancement: Improved Paladin Dilettante II
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Earth Savant II
Enhancement: Corrosive Spellcasting III
Enhancement: Deadly Acid II
Enhancement: Deadly Acid III
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation IV
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation V
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma II


Level 13 (Sorcerer)


Level 14 (Sorcerer)


Level 15 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Eschew Materials
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Arrows
Enhancement: Sorcerer Improved Maximizing II
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +2 Arrows
Enhancement: Corrosive Spellcasting IV
Enhancement: Corrosive Spellcasting V
Enhancement: Deadly Acid IV
Enhancement: Deadly Acid V
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation VI
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation VII


Level 16 (Sorcerer)


Level 17 (Sorcerer)


Level 18 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Acid Arrows
Enhancement: Improved Paladin Dilettante III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +3 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +4 Arrows
Enhancement: Sorcerer Earth Savant III
Enhancement: Corrosive Spellcasting VI


Level 19 (Sorcerer)


Level 20 (Sorcerer)
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Explosive Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Burst Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Slaying Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Terror Arrows
Enhancement: Sorcerer Bloodline of Power
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +5 Arrows
Enhancement: Deadly Acid VI

[DeathsApprentice]

I have zero experience at playing an AA, so I have no idea how uber the damage can be

I think you sacrifice a lot to get (probably) sub-par DPS of archery. I see 2 feats (WF and PBS) of your 7 feats used for what? You don't have precise shot or many shot (which are essential on a ranged build, so I've heard) so you aren't really going to do a lot of damage.
You then go on spending a feat on eshew materials? Really? Spell components are really cheap.

I'd go pure savant-nuker. Get the Empower spell feat. Your SLA's don't pay an extra cost for metamagic feats. Those alone provide more than enough DPS to qualify as an 'alternate damage source' and they are cheap enough to be basicly free. Especially with Echoes of Power.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while you are firing a bow, you won't be holding a superior potency item. So that's 50% extra damage from your spells lost.

An additional source of damage you could consider is: Master's Touch + Falchion + Bull's Strength + Blur + Haste + Heroism + ... and mix it up in melee. My lvl8 wizard does most of his dungeon crawling this way. At lower levels, the difference in dps between a fighter and a buffed caster is pretty small.

[Mubjon]

I am not sure I would go Sorc for an Arcane archer, not enough feats to get your spell dmg feats as well as the feats needed for arcane archer.

I might consider a Wizard for that role though, as they have more feats to play around with. My sorc has very little problem with SP management. It takes a lot of spamming to deplete that SP pool he has, I am sitting at around 2400 though at level 18. Not sure how many you have and I maxed Charisma at the start. Although I took FvS dilly which I will swap out with the paladin dilly when my UMD gets high enough.

I would suggest as the guy above me suggested use the SLA's I have air savant so I can use the lighting loop SLA if I do happen to run out of sp as the echos of power regenerate enough to cast it over and over til I get to the shrine and with the free buffs from the metas on it it can do some nice dmg and stun mobs occasionally.

[FengXian]

The very minimum for splashing AA is WF, PBS and ManyShot. On sorc you might need mental toughess as prereq, too. Consider that even if you give up Bow Str (thus losing damage) you might still rely on procs like slayer, lit2 bow, for damage.
But you have to hit stuff, so you need dex.

A sorc is possibly the harder class to go AA with. I would drop sorc levels to 16, and splash 2 fighter and either 2 monk or 2 ranger. You NEED more feats to make AA work, with 4 extra feats it's easier to afford Manyshot, Rapid Shot etc.

I would also drop charisma since you won't be relying on DC spells, just on damaging ones (and it's ok on a sorc). Put some points in con, dex (will need 30+ to hit decently), cha and str (if you take bow str).

I didn't spend much time thinking about this build so I might be wrong, but I see no other reason to build one than flavour/experiment with AA. I might build one if I ever go for AA completionist. Sorc is easy to level regardless, can hardly be a total gimp with 16 sorc levels. But again, it looks definitely sub par. If you're not interested in min-maxing, it could be fun :)

[djsonar919]

Anyway, I am listening to all possible advices or have another build pointed to me for a Sorc with non SP alternate DPS.




If you want a non-SP alternate DPS source then don't be a Sorc. Sorcs have the most SP for a reason. It's to use it for SP nuke-DPS.

[bendarel]

Eschew Material was mostly used for the lvling time, I was supposed to change it later for when lvl 20 would be there and well I kind of forgot about it.

As for the AA part, Mental Toughness is not needed since I have the Dragonblood Enhancement, as for the 2 other feats like Many Shots and Rapid shots, those are needed if you plan on really relying on the Ranged part, I just want something that would hit on some semi regular basis which I could use not as last resort but as low HP mob finisher instead of wasting SP for that.

I am currently playing a AiS sorc 13 pal 2, so far I quite like it and while the saves are sky high I still feel that my SP are being eaten away like no tomorrow, I haven't got any con opp stuff nor the Rayum Torc to have a relative easy income of SP, the best I can do right now is still to have a Clerc with Divine Vitality with me but that option is not always possible.

Also, I don't get the feeling that I need that feats much as a Sorc nuker, what else could I need on feats beside the spell and greater spell school and maximize ? Extented seems like a nice one but it is not that much needed on later levels, Heightens is nice if you have plenty of mob control spells which could be my case but I can work around that part too.

Taking Rapid Shots instead of the Eschew and Many shots at lvl 18 instead of Toughness, but yeah I agree that AA sorc is far from being even close to anything decent, I just don't like to rely that much on my SP as once it runs out I can just sit on my hands and hope that I live long enough to see the light of a resting shrine.

I will ponder it some more and if I can't get any other decent alternative I guess I would just scrap this build before it would take form and find something else or just get even better SP management than what I currently do.

[FengXian]

Currently bow w/o manyshot is a waste. The idea behind light AA splashes usually is MS for 20 seconds, then do something else, MS again when it's up.

IF the problem is you're running out of SP, try to manage the bar more carefully, currently if you have a torc + con-opp (and con-opp weapon too, but it's not WAI I think), it's pretty easy to refill your sp bar. Also DOTs are very mana efficient.

A melee sorc can be built but a pure sorc is easier to build and to play imho :)

[Spud42]

My helven sorc. is a battle sorc. that wears armour and uses the bow as a another source of damage.
It is a flavour build but it still has the sorc. grunt. It did have AA and I am going to take it back to AA soon but I am currently procastinating over some feats. I found, I was always waiting for the manyshot cooldown timer, so It
will have AA without manyshot.

I can provide more info if you like, but I have to go to work, so it will be later.

[LeLoric]

Powering sla's off echoes of power is better than using a bow on this build. Ditch the aa stuff it's hurting you. You don't have the feats available to be a good sorc and a good aa.

[bendarel]

I do not mind dropping the AA part but I really don't see what else could be that useful to me as Sorc Nuker, as said before, Maximize or Empower with both the school and greater school focus, Heigthens for some of those mass control spells but the rest in the feats is not that much needed, it provides nice additions but they are not needed.

That's the reason I decided to come up with the AA part, it would provide me some means of hurting the baddies at range, saving me some of the SP before I can get to wear either the Torc or the con opp stuff and afterward it would still be a nice trick to have.

[Spud42]

Hi,

My sorc. dps is based on SF-con (or evo), maximum and empower (I could drop this). The rest is in gear
and enhancement APs. I use no-save spells.

I basically play challenge series and little else with this toon. It has L25 1(0) challenge scores (with empower off).

The gear consists of a mixture of T3/T2/T1 challenge gear, House C, Cove and madness gear.

The toon started maxed 18 con with all levelups in con. My egarb dc is 43 which could be higher but I am
happy with this.

It's Cha is 26 and with this type of build it is more relevent for umd.

It's saves can be 36/35/32 depending on gear.

It has the ranger dil and not the pally dil. The pally dil would give very good saves but it requires AP to be
spent on for the Long bow prof. The ranger dill gives all ranged prof, +2strength dam, and 1 dex if you want it.
Either one would work for longbows as the pally dil also gives 1 ab for the 2 ap.

When it had AA the other 4 feats was WF-r, PBS, Rapid and manyshot. I think you need certain amount of dex 17 for
some of these. I suggest in game enhancement or wiki check to make sure.

Note no toughness, with gear 430/440 hitpoints.

As I said above my intentions are to go back to AA but without manyshot, WHY?

a) Because despite all the current forum heat on arcane dps, it can be ZERO. You just have to
run an L21 challange quest and find out that your no-save melfs SLA does ZERO damage, 100% negated
by the mobs acid resist.

b) With the right bow and arrow set most mobs can be damaged if your ab is high enough ( this is the
fun part of this and any battle sorc. build. My toon ran 30/40 for a bow and with work could be higher).

c)It's fun and amusing using different bows and looking through the game ruleset and gearsets.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Archery does 3 things well. Firstly, it lets you hit things far away. Secondly, it gives you burst DPS in the form of manyshot. Thirdly, it gives you area of effect damage in the form of improved precise shot.

You want to know what sorcerers are naturally good at? Hitting things far away with big bursts of area of effect damage. AA+wiz/sorc=bad idea :)

Bard, fighter, rogue, ranger, cleric, favoured soul, monk can all work decently well with Arcane Archer, perhaps have a look at one of these ideas?

[Spud42]

Ok Golems are a bit of a strain for low cha sorcs. A high cha sorc. can spam disintegrate and cyclonic blast
with really great success.

But the low cha l18+ earth sav. has egrab. Egrab Golem and with the right bow delete it up close with pbs.

I think the op is seeking a low level non arcane damage option, is a 750 dam slayer on a egrab mob
not enough? Come up with some other options not naysaying.

[Madryoch]

As was mentioned before to u when u are idling as u said or out of sp casting frost lance or lightning bolt combined with the other 2 SLAs per savant line empowered maximized at minimal cost that regenerate after a few seconds will by far outdps any arrow thingies u might decide to throw at ur enemies especially since u won't be having manyshot. So what is the point in this? Regarding the feats well i find that even as a human with 2 wizard psat lives soon i still lack the feats i wish i had in order to make my toon more powerful and yet u say u are okay with 5 ?

[bendarel]

As was mentioned before to u when u are idling as u said or out of sp casting frost lance or lightning bolt combined with the other 2 SLAs per savant line empowered maximized at minimal cost that regenerate after a few seconds will by far outdps any arrow thingies u might decide to throw at ur enemies especially since u won't be having manyshot. So what is the point in this? Regarding the feats well i find that even as a human with 2 wizard psat lives soon i still lack the feats i wish i had in order to make my toon more powerful and yet u say u are okay with 5 ?

Yep, because currently I do not see what other spells feats could enhance the damage dealing beside Empower/Max, Enlarge works on that many spells that I find it almost a waste to take unless you plan on going Crow Control, Heigthens, for the same reasons, Mental Toughness is relatively useless considering the SP I have as Sorc, could be fun for some extra 100ish SP at lvl 20 but otherwise not that much needed.
The Spell Penetration line is also useless since here all the damaging spells are not stopped by the SR, thus again it goes for the CC casters and that leaves me with Mobile Casting, it's fun to have but again with good placement you really don't need that part.
Quicken is also not needed for a Sorc aside those long casting CC spells, I still don't see the point of having it.

As a mage, yeah, I would need more feats than just 5 on a nuke Sorc, no argument there.

But please, if I am missing something on the feat list of a Nuke Sorc, do share the knowledge, I am not that stubborn nor that knowledgeable about the DDO world.

[LeLoric]

Ok Golems are a bit of a strain for low cha sorcs. A high cha sorc. can spam disintegrate and cyclonic blast
with really great success.

But the low cha l18+ earth sav. has egrab. Egrab Golem and with the right bow delete it up close with pbs.

I think the op is seeking a low level non arcane damage option, is a 750 dam slayer on a egrab mob
not enough? Come up with some other options not naysaying.

Since golems started taking elemental dmg one of the best ways to deal with high hitpoint ones is not untyped dmg spells but cold/lightning dots. Who cares about the low hitpoint ones sla's can deal with them easy enough for a sorc. Don't be afraid of resistances on a sorc you can usually just burn through them.

[Xoan]

Something I noticed about this build, if I am not mistaken a AA requires a past life, so you would be a 34 point build minimum. Other than that I do not have a lot to add yet, as I have not built one yet... though it is high on my list to do.

[Mubjon]

I have been thinking on it and if you are set on a Sorc for your AA choice I would splash 2 ranger to get some free feats in there, mainly bow strength/rapid shot and maybe a fighter level 2 or so you can get some free melee feats to help with the damage you would do with the bow when using it.

2 ranger will get you rapid shot and bow strength. 2 fighter you can take many shot, precise shot, weapon focus and other useful melee/range feats that will help.

If you do want many shot though you will need 17 dex (base + tomes or level ups) so keep that in mind. You can do without it of course, but you will want to add some strength to the character so when you do use the bow you are doing at least a little bit of damage.


You do not need the fighter at all if you do not want to do damage with the bow, but I could not see giving up 2 levels of sorc just to use a bow. Better to get the sinew bow and flame arrow spell and go that route on a 20 level sorc.

[bendarel]

I have been thinking on it and if you are set on a Sorc for your AA choice I would splash 2 ranger to get some free feats in there, mainly bow strength/rapid shot and maybe a fighter level 2 or so you can get some free melee feats to help with the damage you would do with the bow when using it.

2 ranger will get you rapid shot and bow strength. 2 fighter you can take many shot, precise shot, weapon focus and other useful melee/range feats that will help.

If you do want many shot though you will need 17 dex (base + tomes or level ups) so keep that in mind. You can do without it of course, but you will want to add some strength to the character so when you do use the bow you are doing at least a little bit of damage.


You do not need the fighter at all if you do not want to do damage with the bow, but I could not see giving up 2 levels of sorc just to use a bow. Better to get the sinew bow and flame arrow spell and go that route on a 20 level sorc.

I have been indeed thinking of a 18/2 splash, just like my current build that has pal 2 mixed in, I just wanted a build that could allow me some minor damage, the issue I encounter is that I work on the graveyard shift on regular basis, which leads me to some issues when looking for playmates, my usual group of players are fairly busy so I tend to outlevel them and I have to keep my level somewhat otherwise I wouldn't even be able to play with them.

Thus I end up playing alone with those shady streets clerics that I pay to keep me alive when they do feel like healing me in the first place....
Anyway, I am already using the maximized SLAs, they are fine as they are, specially the Air Savant one, but with only one of them being ranged and the other that require to be close to the enemy, those 3 sec cool down look **** long when you are getting swarmed, which happens more and more often on 'solo' play starting lvl 15.

The goal of this build was really to have something to patch in between those SLA or have some of the meat minced a bit before firing some spells to really end it well because let's face it, on a decent computer the ranged weapons reach a lot father away than any damaging spells and since I hate running out of consumable for damage the AA Sorc popped into my mind.

I guess that I could use a more recent version of Tukaw's build or even keep the original one but it seems quite heavy gear intensive and the learning curve does look quite steep, I have plenty of years of gaming twitch on MMO gaming but still, I don't really see myself throwing into learning the ropes of such a complex build without at least correctly mastering the Sorc class.

All in all, I guess it's back to the drawing board for me, either I do go for the AA path or change toward a bastard child of the Tukaw's build.

[Crann]

I think the op is seeking a low level non arcane damage option, is a 750 dam slayer on a egrab mob
not enough? Come up with some other options not naysaying.

750 damage Egrab slayers are a low level damage option?

As stated previously in this thread, no/low cost Sorc SLA's > Archery damage on a Sorc.

Its not naysaying when obvious build flaws are pointed out by experienced players.

I also agree that Sorcs don't have any feats to spare. To get good ranged damage, you need to invest alot into feats.


I think the OP's base idea is solid, but it comes from a lack of higher level experience. At the lower levels, probably up until the Desert or Gianthold, mobs just don't have alot of HP, and adding in an archery dps option isnt a horrible idea.

A better idea is to learn SP management, and how to get the most damage out of your spells as possible through feats, enhancements, and items.

Once you run into the higher HP mobs, you really need to be focused on your dps, in whatever form, to be effective. Splitting your limitted resources between arcane damage, and archery damage will render both ineffective.

[Spud42]

Ok there seems to be some confusion in this thread, I was discussing a battle sorcerer build, which
in my version of fantasy lore wears armour and uses some form of weapon (in this case a bow due to
elven and helven lore) as well as being able to cast arcane spells. There are many niche builds in this type of setting and they are imo as valid as the more standard ones.

I don't really care what does the most situational dps, who thinks they are experienced players or whether a
reader doesn't understand some of my comments. In fact I don't actually really care about this forum. So I'm not
dropping game but I am dropping this forum, cya.