The Crucible Is A Painful Quest

[Kushiel]

However many years it has been around, and however many paltry attempts I've made at running this quest, I've had exactly one (1) attempt at it that I would consider worthwhile. It is a Frelling STUPID quest that would benefit from having some other way for a party to get passed the swim... even if it means several more tough fights (that *the party* can move to encounter *together* instead of standing idly by waiting [hoping!] for one person with enough twitch skills, the "right" character attributes, or tons of HP and stacks of Cure Serious Pots to make it thru... and still encounter a crappy situation they may not be able to stand up to or handle.

It is a base 14 level quest.

The best run I've ever had at it? I think I got dragged thru it above level myself by folks 3-4 levels higher than me, who knew exactly what to do and had the "right" gear and player skills to pull off. Basically, I was there for hasting and buffing.

Mostly that quest, in the times I've tried to run it, has been a Waste of Time. It means gaining No XP due to deaths, re-entries, or the spread of levels of people who can/will do it.

I guess, if i'm lucky, I'm well experienced enough now to make it thru 1/8th of the swim and consume ~30 pots.

It Is Nothing That Is *FUN*. It is UNFUN. It is stupid!

For the love of Ehlonna - if you can't/won't revisit stupid time-sink quests like this, at least don't make any more of them in the future. And in that range of quests from ~12-thru-17 at least try (TRY?!) to make some that are fun to run that don't have borked mechanics, completely PITA bosses, don't take huge swaths of time, nor leave several party members facing lengths of time just watching one other player... *Play* the "Game!"

Yes, I know some of you can do this... even while lacking the HP or the gear or the whatever-else-it-is that others scramble for and still die for having. I bow in your general (superior) direction. I'd just like to have some mid-to-high level content in a *game* I "play" for FUN that isn't a PITA!

[Dwarfo]

I love this quest, and have ran it at lvl..on elite! Took less than an hour and was a heck of a lotta fun. Just have to have a high-reflex person and someone who knows the puzzle and its a piece of cake.

[mobrien316]

The first time I ever did the swim was on my rogue during a guild run. He was level 13 at the time and we were doing it on Hard. One of the others talked me through it.

I was VERY proud of myself when I made it through the swim with no deaths, and the other party members were quite appreciative and positive. I guess that biased me a bit, because ever since then I like doing the Crucible.

[morticianjohn]

Have you heard of casual? I haven't seen a party of 6 who were incapable of getting through casual crucible

[MrCow]

I know when my guild used to run this years ago we would always do the swim together, namely for practice and because we had someone who hated being alone. Whoever felt most confident would go last in the event someone died.

[Kushiel]

Have you heard of casual? I haven't seen a party of 6 who were incapable of getting through casual crucible

There are several quests I will run on Casual. Even under those circumstances they are no fun.

Thanks MorticianJohn, but you were of no help.

Still, again, to clarify, for those who seem to miss it - I'm asking for quests with mechanics like this to have.... Optional methods around PITA UNFUN for Some mechanics.

Subsequent posters... try to note that I recognize Casual exists and do use it. Further pokes at that "tactic" to completion still far short of my enjoying the game and getting worthwhile XP for it in a reasonable RW time, which is the only means of character advancement.

[Caliban]

Meh, I do the swim on Elite, at level, with my wizard.

Practice it on casual until you can make it without hitting any of the spikes - you don't need evasion if you never have to make the Reflex save.

Note: I'm saying use casual to practice, not as an alternative to running the quest normally.

[sirgog]

Crucible is hard for its level on Hard and Elite because of the traps (IMO it's the second hardest level 16 or lower quest in the game to beat on Elite), but if you can put aside several hours to thoroughly explore the quest, you will likely have fun solving it yourself.

I have fond memories of figuring out Inferno of the Damned in a first run that took 1 hour 45, and can now run it in 6 minutes.

[Kushiel]

The first time I ever did the swim was on my rogue during a guild run. He was level 13 at the time and we were doing it on Hard. One of the others talked me through it.

I was VERY proud of myself when I made it through the swim with no deaths, and the other party members were quite appreciative and positive. I guess that biased me a bit, because ever since then I like doing the Crucible.

You are one of those to whom I'd bow in your general direction. And, by every deity ever believed in by every race, I would LOVE to have you (or someone with those capabilities) available when needed/wanted to get thru this quest.

Even better - someone at level, capable of doing it... for XP! Sweet XP would be worth paying PP!

That is an accomplishement and I do truly throw kudos in your dirction for it.

Not all can do that. Not all can do it reliably. Not all enjoy watching that 1 person manage it (or not) alone.

[Elation]

The swim is part of the quest design. The point is you have to do it. Making an easy work around and yes kill more mobs is an easy work around is not more fun its just an easy button.

Oh and in addition you do not even need high evasion to get through it there are paths to follow even in the water to avoid danger. I loved learning it and then doing it on just about every class in the game. Artificer was the most fun though. Getting to the room and dropping a flame turret was fun while my dog decimated the gnolls.

[Kushiel]

Meh, I do the swim on Elite, at level, with my wizard.

Practice it on casual until you can make it without hitting any of the spikes - you don't need evasion if you never have to make the Reflex save.

Note: I'm saying use casual to practice, not as an alternative to running the quest normally.


Bright Goddess, I don't want to have to practice a quest I detest on Casual to get to a portion of it deep in (already passed that stupid maze) to have an attempt (and a timed run back to or reset) for most likely mounting deaths and repair bills and... No XP!! Probably multiple and multiple times.

Taking damage from the spear shafts while moving across them? Not even impacting against the metal points? A little loss of mouse control, relying on a cure serious pot? (Which, The Crucible swim, if anything ever was is a grand argument for the melee of the world (and anyone else) having some access to better heals-in-a-bottle above CSW and/or SilverFlame (crush your attributes) potions.

[Memnir]

For my money, Crucible is one of the best designed and most fun quests in the game.
One of only a true handful in the game that have a true D&D feel.

[Torkzed]

I agree with the OP in at least one respect---it is annoying whenever a quest leaves most of the party standing around while one or two people are doing something. This happens in several places in the Crucible. (Test of reflexes, or some such--the obstacle course with all the traps...)

There are a few other quests where stuff needs to be done by one person, but other stuff may be done in parallel, if the party so desires. (thinking of VON5 here) As I recall, that is not really an option in Crucible.

[Calebro]

For my money, Crucible is one of the best designed and most fun quests in the game.

This.
It's one of the best quests in the entire game.


However many years it has been around, and however many paltry attempts I've made at running this quest, I've had exactly one (1) attempt at it that I would consider worthwhile.

You obviously need to run with different people. I'll even be so bold as to say that "However many years it has been around" is not the same as saying that you've been around for that long. If you had, you'd probably know that quest, the maze, and the swim like the back of your hand and would probably be able to do it with your eyes closed.
Practice and knowledge. You need more of both.

[Hobgoblin]

I love this quest! If I have a toon with evasion, I take it as a challange to my save for it. if I dont i use it to practice my twitch skills.

I like the dialogue, i like the varitiy I like the mobs.

Please dont change the quest!

hob

[Sarisa]

There are two big flaws with Crucible.

One is that there are several parts of the quest that have major downtime for all but one person in the group. This leads to the ones without evasion or high reflex saves, or with high WIS, for instance, lots of sitting around doing nothing while watching others have "fun".

The other is that it's required for flagging. The reason why The Pit, Spies in the House, and Maze of Madness are well done quests is because they are completely optional. If you dislike that type of play (and many do dislike platforming and puzzle oriented quests), you don't have to run them. Crucible is not like that.

Crucible is a well constructed quest, and quite fun if you're one of the ones who actually gets to do something. It isn't without its flaws.

[Kushiel]

For my money, Crucible is one of the best designed and most fun quests in the game.
One of only a true handful in the game that have a true D&D feel.

Keep in mind on a few varied classes I find "Stealthy Repossession" "Proof Is In The Poison" "Swiped Signet" "The Pit" "Invaders!" and even "Dreams of Insanity" Elite at level to be doable (by me)... and even... have *fun* doing them.

The Crucible (to me) is far from one of the best designed or most fun quests in the game. That you are, apparantly, able and capable of having true fun in/from/with that quest is mind-boggling to me.

I think my RW DM's must have been something different, as well, for it is a far cry from what I have experienced in rolling dice and scratching at paper. We always had home-brewed worlds, though, and not modules - and I've heard modules tend to be more... frenetic and less lovingly told tales by a would-be writer playing with telling a story and watching it unfold (rather than end in bloody limbs and torso sections). ;-}

[psi0nix]

I'll be honest here, the first time I did the crucible, it took over 5 hours, had me in a blood rage, I hated it with a passion, I used every swear word I could think of and possibly made a few new ones up.

But, after running it with an experienced group, and watching how to do it, then going back and running it with just 2 of us, I actually like it.

It has all the elements of a good dungeon, (even I can't believe I am saying this lol), but it has that tension when whoever is doing the swim is down there, and the others are up top watching their HP bar, praying with every drop that it's not the -2 HP drop that ends the attempt.

Once you get to know it, it's actually a good one, just give it a few runs to get the knack of it, and yes even the swim is a good one to have a go at, but not on elite unless you have evasion.

[shores11]

Wow, I consider Crucible one of the best designed quests in the game and a throw back to D&D pen and paper play.

[Torkzed]

This.
.... I'll even be so bold as to say that "However many years it has been around" is not the same as saying that you've been around for that long. If you had, you'd probably know that quest, the maze, and the swim like the back of your hand and would probably be able to do it with your eyes closed.
Practice and knowledge. You need more of both.


Uh...the OP is a Founder, and has a join date earlier than yours. He probably has not run the quest as much as you, but, well...just saying...

[Kushiel]

This.
It's one of the best quests in the entire game.



You obviously need to run with different people. I'll even be so bold as to say that "However many years it has been around" is not the same as saying that you've been around for that long. If you had, you'd probably know that quest, the maze, and the swim like the back of your hand and would probably be able to do it with your eyes closed.
Practice and knowledge. You need more of both.

Headstart. I've been here since then. Almost every day - having never let my subscription lapse. But, as for several chunks of the content in the world, I avoid them because (to me) they are no fun.

Some - are stepping stones that *must* be stepped on to get to other places. For me... that does not make them any more fun. Crucible is one... I guess I've never been the "right" class for it. Nor had the "right" attributes. Last life, LOL, on a normal run I (as a Sorc) was the one who oozed out the end of the swim, By More Luck Than Is Healhty To Rely On - charmed everything, grabbed the horn and ran. I didn't enjoy that. It was, deep into the quest having used up already RW time and resulting in no xp for the attempt because of deaths and re-entries, a horrid use of my time for character advancement.

Last life I saved the mission, I moved us along to completion. Sadly, even with the accolades of my fellow players... it is not a thing I would call fun. And that was last life. This life, so far, every Crucible experience has also not been any.. fun!

I can't, obviously, rely on repeating that experience each life. I don't find it fun to attempt it. Provide quests with alternate paths, requiring differnent expenditures by different party make-ups - resulting in a more likely (random collection of random people) achieving.... Completion and XP!

[Kmnh]

I love the Crucible.

The swim IS evil, but it's a kind of evil I can live with.

[karsion]

However many years it has been around, and however many paltry attempts I've made at running this quest, I've had exactly one (1) attempt at it that I would consider worthwhile. It is a Frelling STUPID quest that would benefit from having some other way for a party to get passed the swim... even if it means several more tough fights (that *the party* can move to encounter *together* instead of standing idly by waiting [hoping!] for one person with enough twitch skills, the "right" character attributes, or tons of HP and stacks of Cure Serious Pots to make it thru... and still encounter a crappy situation they may not be able to stand up to or handle.

It is a base 14 level quest.

The best run I've ever had at it? I think I got dragged thru it above level myself by folks 3-4 levels higher than me, who knew exactly what to do and had the "right" gear and player skills to pull off. Basically, I was there for hasting and buffing.

Mostly that quest, in the times I've tried to run it, has been a Waste of Time. It means gaining No XP due to deaths, re-entries, or the spread of levels of people who can/will do it.

I guess, if i'm lucky, I'm well experienced enough now to make it thru 1/8th of the swim and consume ~30 pots.

It Is Nothing That Is *FUN*. It is UNFUN. It is stupid!

For the love of Ehlonna - if you can't/won't revisit stupid time-sink quests like this, at least don't make any more of them in the future. And in that range of quests from ~12-thru-17 at least try (TRY?!) to make some that are fun to run that don't have borked mechanics, completely PITA bosses, don't take huge swaths of time, nor leave several party members facing lengths of time just watching one other player... *Play* the "Game!"

Yes, I know some of you can do this... even while lacking the HP or the gear or the whatever-else-it-is that others scramble for and still die for having. I bow in your general (superior) direction. I'd just like to have some mid-to-high level content in a *game* I "play" for FUN that isn't a PITA!

No, no and no. Cruicible is one of the few very varied quests where there is something for everyone: there are some brain engaging puzzles, some agility based tasks and big fight at the end. Have to agree with Memnir here that it has a real D&D feel: at one time it gives something to do for a monk/rogue, at other time for some wise cleric/fvs(as if they didn't have enough to do) and eventually to melees and arcanes. Not everyone is involved 100% of the time but everyone is needed.

I am all for variety in quests and encourage you to not run the quests you hate with such passion. Even tho it is a flag there is hardly any neccessary loot in Piker's (now even more true with nerf to the Boots). Let other people have some fun too, don't ask the devs to change every quest to suit only yourself. That is the spirit of roeplaying and D&D have fun and let others have fun too.

[Nysrock]

Just have an at level rogue or monk in your group if you can't make the swim yourself. It is one of the few quests were you can benefit from different classes running with you and yet it is still not impossible to solo.

Sorry you don't like the quest but sometimes you have to think outside of the box to complete quests.

[bigolbear]

I'd just like to have some mid-to-high level content in a *game* I "play" for FUN that isn't a PITA!

And Id like to have some more content that challenges us on the way to lvl 20 - in personal (twitch) skills, in character building, and in party co-operation without clearly defined stereotyped roles.

Why cant we both be happy? I find some of gaint hold to be trivialy easy.. and when i say trivial my speed record for trail by fire was 5 minutes, a guildy managed 4.

If its too hard try it on normal, or for goodness sake even casual. Accept that these dificulty settings are for you, and its OK! It wont always be the case, we all get beter with time. Dotn fall into the trap of 'must do every thing on elite'.

Crucible, madstone and to a lesser extent prison of the planes all do this. And they culminate in TOR, a quest that is still a shining jewel in ddo's crown.

Just because you cant do it.. (yet)
Just because you dont have a freind to help you.. (yet)

calm down. get over it. try again.
When you do finaly beat it it will be very satisfying - especaily if you do the swim, the trap dodge and guide the maze.



Any ways.. sit down shut up stop moaning.
heres some tips:
1. check the wiki for the maze - we all have our own methods but the wiki one is fine im sure. Dont jump, look out for snipers.
2. for the trap dodge bit
Do one run first where you scout your optimal path, the barrels can be used to make the jumps easier but with a jump spell its not needed.
when you have entered the secret room above the shrine to grab the horn. WAIT. replenish your health, then grab the horn and run for it as a seconf set of traps will go off.
3.For the swim bit:
apply the folowing buffs:
merfolks, GH, stoneskin, FOM, deathward, aid.

with these buffs, and a LITTLE skill (hold down 'S' to swim against the current to slow your advance, wedge your self on rocks and drink pots to recover health) you can get a 6 con elf wizy through there on normal. Elite is a different story but hey thats fair enough.

4: getting the horn after the swimmy bit:
The trick here is having fom and deathward - that way you can move unhindered and shouldnt die instantly.
any of the folowing methods works well.
1. sneak if good at stealth
2. charm 1 gnoll as distraction, grab horn
3. use a noise maker + sneak works very well
4. summon monster (any including clickies), grab the horn in the distraction

After the fight and now you have the horn heal your self under the water then proceed.

[Caliban]

And if you are on a wizard or sorcerer you can just use DDoor once you get the horn and skip the last part of the swim.

[Calebro]

Uh...the OP is a Founder, and has a join date earlier than yours. He probably has not run the quest as much as you, but, well...just saying...

Join date means nothing. All it means is that he purchased a copy of the game when it was sold in stores and tried it out then.
Neither does a join date of last week matter, because it could be someone playing on a second account, etc.
Join date means nothing at all.

[CheeseMilk]

It's certainly the most aptly-named quest in the game!

It's also the only place where Merfolk's Blessing is cast NOT as a joke or superstition.

[Saravis]

The thing I dislike about that quest is its really just a solo quest that requires a party. The maze section one person runs around while everyone else waits. The swim section one person swims around while everyone else waits. The obstacle section... you get the idea.

[Qhualor]

i dont consider crucible to be a time sink. it ranks up there as one of my favorite quests in game. if it wasnt for the swim, which is what actually makes or breaks success of the quest, i would solo it with hires.

i totally disagree with the OP, but thats perhaps because ive only been in a couple failed pug groups that couldnt get past the swim. this is surprising to me to see complaints of time sink about this quest because i dont think i have come across a single person who had any real issue with it. frustration, yes, but thats because of the maze or all that time wasted and missing out on good xp because the evasion player couldnt make the swim.

[Chai]

Still one of the top 10 quests in the game. Running it with permadeath toons at level on elite is a trip.

[Elation]

Headstart. I've been here since then. Almost every day - having never let my subscription lapse. But, as for several chunks of the content in the world, I avoid them because (to me) they are no fun.

Some - are stepping stones that *must* be stepped on to get to other places. For me... that does not make them any more fun. Crucible is one... I guess I've never been the "right" class for it. Nor had the "right" attributes. Last life, LOL, on a normal run I (as a Sorc) was the one who oozed out the end of the swim, By More Luck Than Is Healhty To Rely On - charmed everything, grabbed the horn and ran. I didn't enjoy that. It was, deep into the quest having used up already RW time and resulting in no xp for the attempt because of deaths and re-entries, a horrid use of my time for character advancement.

Last life I saved the mission, I moved us along to completion. Sadly, even with the accolades of my fellow players... it is not a thing I would call fun. And that was last life. This life, so far, every Crucible experience has also not been any.. fun!

I can't, obviously, rely on repeating that experience each life. I don't find it fun to attempt it. Provide quests with alternate paths, requiring differnent expenditures by different party make-ups - resulting in a more likely (random collection of random people) achieving.... Completion and XP!

Many of us have been around if you dont like the quest dont do it, see simple.

[bhgiant]

I don't particularily enjoy crucible either but it definitely has that D&D feel to it. Quite a unique quest that was well thought out and well designed. It's a gauntlet created to test soldiers and it's one of the few quests that live up to their purpose. If I were better at it, I think I would enjoy it more, that maze at the beginning is a dang pain.

[Gremmlynn]

There are two big flaws with Crucible.

One is that there are several parts of the quest that have major downtime for all but one person in the group. This leads to the ones without evasion or high reflex saves, or with high WIS, for instance, lots of sitting around doing nothing while watching others have "fun".

The other is that it's required for flagging. The reason why The Pit, Spies in the House, and Maze of Madness are well done quests is because they are completely optional. If you dislike that type of play (and many do dislike platforming and puzzle oriented quests), you don't have to run them. Crucible is not like that.

Crucible is a well constructed quest, and quite fun if you're one of the ones who actually gets to do something. It isn't without its flaws.I agree.

I find The Pit to be an excellently designed quest because there is no reason I ever have to run it again. But with Crucible I have to wait around for someone to do a lot of a quest I'd as soon not do at all in order to run Tor, which I love.

[dredre9987]

Evasion , high reflex, nuff said

[Kushiel]

Still one of the top 10 quests in the game. Running it with permadeath toons at level on elite is a trip.

To different response postings, and not posted them because they bog down in either specific responses, maybe out of context to whom I'm attempting to address... or just because they get unweildy.

I wasn't solo'ing it. It wasn't an Elite run. We had an over-level party of regularly questing together folks.

I think, at heart, I want the capacity for parties (players) of wildly divergent attributes and skills to have paths available to them for... Completion and XP! I'd be happy if there were paths that harvested greater XP (and exluded going back and walking the other path for a double harvest). The Crucible is unforgiving in too many places, for too great of a time (for those who aren't the best of the best, of the best, sir!)... to me.

I'm not sure by what criteria, Chai, you deem The Crucible as one of the top 10 quests in the game - but I will readily and whole-heartedly agree with you that to complete it deathless (PermaDeath no less) Elite at level would be quite the trip... I can't envision/feel/imagine/see a condition under which I 'd call that *fun* and I think it would be one of the most horrid experiences to have to "retire" or fully *delete* a character due to a "failure" while *playing* that section of a game.

Huge kudo's to those who have done it. Who continue to do it. My unabashed amazement if you *have fun* while doing it. I don't get it. It is beyond my capacity to understand how you derive fun from that.

On a different note... anyone on Sarlona, for my upcoming lives, who would like to be the one to pull off Elite, At-Level, The Crucible runs... note, I don't wan't to *learn* it ... i just want to get thru it another 30+ times as needed for completions and xp as each life dictates. Don't that sound like *fun*?

And I do intentionally phrase it in this manner because it is from Completions and XP (in a reasonable amount of RW time) that character advancement is seen. That is what I'm chasing along with my fun. XP... which comes from getting (mostly) to the ends of quests. Because with Completions and XP also comes TP, and with quest-garnered Favor comes more TP... and with more TP... the cycle can continue. heh

[sephiroth1084]

For my money, Crucible is one of the best designed and most fun quests in the game.
One of only a true handful in the game that have a true D&D feel.
Yup!

There are two big flaws with Crucible.

One is that there are several parts of the quest that have major downtime for all but one person in the group. This leads to the ones without evasion or high reflex saves, or with high WIS, for instance, lots of sitting around doing nothing while watching others have "fun".

The other is that it's required for flagging. The reason why The Pit, Spies in the House, and Maze of Madness are well done quests is because they are completely optional. If you dislike that type of play (and many do dislike platforming and puzzle oriented quests), you don't have to run them. Crucible is not like that.

Crucible is a well constructed quest, and quite fun if you're one of the ones who actually gets to do something. It isn't without its flaws.
I even disagree with this. I've done all of the tests on my paladin, barbarian and wizard at different times and across different difficulties because we either didn't have someone with evasion, or the person with evasion couldn't get them done.

We have casual and normal difficulties for weak or unprepared groups and it is very doable on those difficulties. I see no problem in their being some quests that groups really have to work at to complete.

[Elation]

I agree.

I find The Pit to be an excellently designed quest because there is no reason I ever have to run it again. But with Crucible I have to wait around for someone to do a lot of a quest I'd as soon not do at all in order to run Tor, which I love.

Really if you dont like it dont run it if you have to run it to get to a quest you want to run then get it done. There is no major down time if you have competant people. Anyone can do the maze if they learn it if you have a great group it can be done by multiple people doing different sections. The agility room can also be done by any class aslong as you can do marginal timing to avoid traps and have decent HPalso the agility room takes max of 45 seconds not alot of standing around. The swim once again not pidgeon holed to any class and once your good at it just a two to 3 minutes. So if your standing around its your own fault.

[Kushiel]

Many of us have been around if you dont like the quest dont do it, see simple.



You fell far (FAR) short. I think I was fairly clear in other of my posts/replies that I do go out of my way to avoid quests I do not enjoy. It is a required stepping-stone to other content. If I could avoid it altogether I gladly would.

In the future, if quests could be envisioned that allow for alternate paths to completion, that would be great.

In the case of The Crucible it is not so *simple* to "don't do it" - it is in a lacking spread of content. It is a required quest for one that is (barring the mechanism of simul-kill the giant/dragon if one is going for blooding) fairly Fun and doable by a very, very motly collection of folks... at many difficulties.

[Zenthalas]

It's an awesome quest used to solo it on elite when the cap was 16 on my gimp drow wizzie.

[Cryohazard]

"...Lord Jorgundal wants no weaklings in his hoard..."

[Zenthalas]

"...Lord Jorgundal wants no weaklings in his hoard..."

^ this

[Zillee]

I used to hate it. Now I'm ... okay with it. Used to feel clueless and useless, so decided to learn the maze and the puzzle so I could contribute more. I've not had to lead the maze part yet as the PUG party leader's always known it, but I'm bang on cue for getting to the right switch at the time to help them through it.

During the agility test, I'm watching the other pikers and having fun guessing who is going to fall into the hidden spike trap first as they dance/tumble about while waiting for the evasion guy to finish.

And being a fighter who's really dumb, I usually get to choose the door to avoid the death thingy.

When it comes to the swim, I get to pike and have a quick smoke outside. Good times!

[Elation]

You fell far (FAR) short. I think I was fairly clear in other of my posts/replies that I do go out of my way to avoid quests I do not enjoy. It is a required stepping-stone to other content. If I could avoid it altogether I gladly would.

In the future, if quests could be envisioned that allow for alternate paths to completion, that would be great.

In the case of The Crucible it is not so *simple* to "don't do it" - it is in a lacking spread of content. It is a required quest for one that is (barring the mechanism of simul-kill the giant/dragon if one is going for blooding) fairly Fun and doable by a very, very motly collection of folks... at many difficulties.

Not every quest is gonna be fun for you so if you want to get to the next one in the chain then do it. It is not as hard or stand byeish as you make it out to be. It is easy by not doing it you miss out on TOR and REAVER. Neither one of them is crucial to game play. They are fun how ever but it does not stop you from leveling in a different area or only running the quests you like out there in giant hold. There is no need for an alternate path since the one in game already is doable by most competant players.

[Kushiel]

I used to hate it. Now I'm ... okay with it. Used to feel clueless and useless, so decided to learn the maze and the puzzle so I could contribute more. I've not had to lead the maze part yet as the PUG party leader's always known it, but I'm bang on cue for getting to the right switch at the time to help them through it.

During the agility test, I'm watching the other pikers and having fun guessing who is going to fall into the hidden spike trap first as they dance/tumble about while waiting for the evasion guy to finish.

And being a fighter who's really dumb, I usually get to choose the door to avoid the death thingy.

When it comes to the swim, I get to pike and have a quick smoke outside. Good times!


To learn the maze what did you do? Access YouTube videos or partially run and re-run the quest? Manage to go with people patient and able/willing to describe what to do (and have the capacity to recall that instruction during future runs)?

I abhor the idea of watching outside-the-game videos... it breaks what little immersion there is. And it seems like the game (as if there was a flesh 'n blood DM behind what was happening) could/should/would provide greater hints or options for their players to reach completion.

I hate the idea of re-running or partially running a quest (and gaining no apprecialbe advancement for the character). If you've done that... and enjoyed it... a tip of the helm to you! ;-}

I'm also, I think, pretty good at standing in one spot and pulling the lever I've been assigned (and providing feedback that I've pulled it as requested). I doubt there is anyone in this conversation who can confirm that... lol... but I do understand and appreciate the value of "at least" being able to do that much.

With my current life's Wisdom of 8... I've also gotten to be the one to read the book. Not great *fun* but nice to contribute something to a place where someone does not have to die. And so much quicker and simpler than either the maze or the swim or the agility test.

What you have done, that several others have utterly failed in, is have a piece of an actual discussion... and provide some conversation. That is several long steps away from "sit down, shut up, and stop moaning." Whether we see the same things, or not, I believe there is at least a chance that you heard me. tyty

[Gremmlynn]

Really if you dont like it dont run it if you have to run it to get to a quest you want to run then get it done. There is no major down time if you have competant people. Anyone can do the maze if they learn it if you have a great group it can be done by multiple people doing different sections. The agility room can also be done by any class aslong as you can do marginal timing to avoid traps and have decent HPalso the agility room takes max of 45 seconds not alot of standing around. The swim once again not pidgeon holed to any class and once your good at it just a two to 3 minutes. So if your standing around its your own fault.So, your saying in your groups everyone runs the traps and everyone does the swim? In my experience it's whoever is best at it while the rest twiddle their thumbs. Hell in the least they could spawn some mobs for the rest or something.

I really don't understand the "get it done" attitude. Do you generally have to eat something you don't like at restaurants in order to be served something you do? Same thing applies here IMO.

[Missing_Minds]

For my money, Crucible is one of the best designed and most fun quests in the game.
One of only a true handful in the game that have a true D&D feel.

It does have a very true to D&D feel to it, but I hardly consider it one of the most fun.

As this is a video game, I wish they'd stick in a lever so we could at least "flush" soul stones out of that swim region so we didn't have to release and come back in other party members can't get you.

Some people can make the swim blindfolded any more. Thing is, most can't.

[Vormaerin]

Bright Goddess, I don't want to have to practice a quest I detest on Casual to get to a portion of it deep in (already passed that stupid maze) to have an attempt (and a timed run back to or reset) for most likely mounting deaths and repair bills and... No XP!! P

Then don't run it. Sheesh. There are hundreds of quests in this game. You can certainly skip the ones you don't like. This isn't a single player game where if you get stuck somewhere, you never get forward.

Tangleroot bores me to tears and I've hated Faithful Departed since forever. Guess what? I manage to reach lvl 20 without them just fine.

There are lots and lots of players playing this game and, believe it or not, they don't all have your interests. The devs put in all kinds of different quests for that very reason. I'm quite good at those floor tile puzzles, even the complicated ones like in that 3BC quest. I'm not very good at mario jumping like in the Pit. One of my guildmates is the opposite. Luckily, both types are in the game so we both have things we like.

[Shadow7375]

The Crucible ... I guess you either love it or hate it ...

I used to hate it, partially cause of the swim. I just couldn't manage to get through to the end and get that darn horn. The spikes got me long before i got even close to the horn. Always thought only evasion builds could do the swim, but hey ... you can do it without if you take it slow and navigate carefully through the spikes. Lots of save spots down there under water (afaik).

And the maze, my oh my ... Always pulled the wrong levers, couldn't find my way back, ect.

But now, after some folks lend me a hand and taught me a few things, i started to like the quest. It is somewhat easy now compared to half a year ago. I can get horns now myself ... Still need some help with the maze though I have to admit but I'll learn that soon enough :-)

Once I understood how all works it became actually fun to run this quest. And best is, it doesn't take hours anymore as it used to to finish it.

[Jingwei]

What I dislike most about the Crucible is that it's almost impossible to learn how to do the quest by simply running it. If you are the guide in the maze, all you really know is that levers sometimes get pulled. If you aren't the guy the the test of reflexes, all you know that the the rogue has to run around and around until he gets it right. If you aren't the one doing the swim, all you know is that the rogue goes into the water, and if he's really good, he doesn't die.

Compared to the Pit, which also has some irritating mechanics: you can follow someone who knows the quest, see what they do, and more or less learn how to do it yourself.

Compare the puzzle mechanics in the Shroud, even if you go in having no idea of how to do the puzzle, it's trivial to watch someone else do the puzzle, and maybe learn how to do them yourself.

Even though I've run the crucible a few times now, if I ever came back as a monk or rogue, I'd have no real idea on how to do the swim or the reflex text because I've never actually seen them done before.

[Calebro]

What I dislike most about the Crucible is that it's almost impossible to learn how to do the quest by simply running it. If you are the guide in the maze, all you really know is that levers sometimes get pulled. If you aren't the guy the the test of reflexes, all you know that the the rogue has to run around and around until he gets it right. If you aren't the one doing the swim, all you know is that the rogue goes into the water, and if he's really good, he doesn't die.

<snip>

Even though I've run the crucible a few times now, if I ever came back as a monk or rogue, I'd have no real idea on how to do the swim or the reflex text because I've never actually seen them done before.

So ask. Ask the guy guiding through the maze to show you what he's doing. Ask the evasion toon to do a dry run with you in tow before he actually goes for the horn. Ask the swimmer if you can go first, and if he'll pick up your stone as he passes so you can see it all if/when you die.
If you don't understand what's being done or why it's being done, it's your own fault. If you asked for it to be explained/shown to you, chances are that it would be explained/shown to you.

[Zillee]

To learn the maze what did you do? Access YouTube videos or partially run and re-run the quest? Manage to go with people patient and able/willing to describe what to do (and have the capacity to recall that instruction during future runs)?



I found a map of the maze, I think it was linked somewhere on here or on the wiki. Then doodled a route over the top of it. Next time I was in the quest after that, the maze became really ... obvious. Probably because I'd studied it. I tend to mostly quest in PUGs so there often isn't time to explore and learn stuff, so it was the only way that would work for me. I'll still have the map handy if I'm going to do the quest, just in case whoever says they 'know it' forgets, or in case I need a quick reminder as to where each crest slots. Just like if I'm doing the tile puzzle in Von5 I'll have that handy too. And the Inferno of the Damned map too - still learning that one really, but its getting more familiar. Only wish the flipping mephits would go all the way into the torch rooms each time now ...

I will often watch youtube vids for quests that I'm stumped by but they often arent immensely helpful as they usually feature blue bar types. Sometimes though, they help. I used to get horribly lost in the Sub if I was split from the party, so finding an instruction vid on how to get to the raids there was brilliant. I find the best time to watch the vids is immediately after a first run of a quest with a group that left you gasping in their tracks - then you can go 'ohhhhh, so that's what happened'! *grins*

I appreciate your frustration with the crucible though. I did used to really hate it too. The only time I've seen the swim is after all the ones we'd pinned our hopes on had died, so the rest of us jumped it to take a look. I've only got as far as that bit where you're meant to swim upwards quickly after snaking around near the bottom at the start. *ding* Maybe I'll see if I can find a guildie willing to do it on casual with me to try and learn the swim. That would be great! Can you imagine it? A gimpy, dumb, non-evasion, non-blue bar fighter doing the swim on elite? Nothing's impossible! My current self-challenge is to try and do ghosts of perdition solo. Mwahaaahaaa.

[sephiroth1084]

As this is a video game, I wish they'd stick in a lever so we could at least "flush" soul stones out of that swim region so we didn't have to release and come back in other party members can't get you.
I like that idea.

Honestly, OP, what do you enjoy, other than a free pass to the end of the quest?

Yeah, you can't just skip the Crucible if you enjoy Tor or Reaver, but an alternative route would probably just become the norm for anyone running the quest.

You know how you run the maze? Pay attention on a few runs with someone who knows it, look up a map to the thing, and do one run where you lead while using the map. BAM!

[Memnir]

As this is a video game, I wish they'd stick in a lever so we could at least "flush" soul stones out of that swim region so we didn't have to release and come back in other party members can't get you.I'm not against tweaks like this... I just don't want the whole quest redesigned and thus losing a lot of the appeal. I like the challenge of Crucible. I don't want to see it homogenized to lose that challenge - as has happened to other quests in the game.


But, a stone-flush like you suggest would make the quest more palatable without taking away challenge.

[Kushiel]

Then don't run it. Sheesh. There are hundreds of quests in this game. You can certainly skip the ones you don't like. This isn't a single player game where if you get stuck somewhere, you never get forward.

Tangleroot bores me to tears and I've hated Faithful Departed since forever. Guess what? I manage to reach lvl 20 without them just fine.

There are lots and lots of players playing this game and, believe it or not, they don't all have your interests. The devs put in all kinds of different quests for that very reason. I'm quite good at those floor tile puzzles, even the complicated ones like in that 3BC quest. I'm not very good at mario jumping like in the Pit. One of my guildmates is the opposite. Luckily, both types are in the game so we both have things we like.

While there may be "hundreds" of quests in the game... there are nine (9!) that are level 14. PoP/Madstone/Crucible are 3 *required* flagging mechanisms for TOR at that range. Inferno/Ghosts/Flesh/Vol are 4 *required* flagging mechanisms for (something I've never run and don't readily know the name of) at that range.

14 is a skimpy level. Trying to continue a Hard or Elite streak makes it even more difficult (but, of course, for the godly forumites for whom everything - no matter their attributes, class, race and skills is somehow *Easy*). Sure... can try to grind into dust Casual and Normal runs, but it is not (as I've tried to say) from there that Favor and XP can merrily be accumulated.

I do, honestly, believe that there are lots and lots of players in this game that do not have my interests. You are absolutely correct, I believe, in that assessment. I would not argue that with you nor think I had "facts" that pointed to a different tally... and I think that has been more than borne out in the cases where I've attempted ongoing "discussions" via the forums.

A thing that is not worked out in the quests we have available, and that I would like to have options for, are multiple and different paths that allow completion (and XP!). Exclusive, varied, hinged upon having someone capable or able fo fulfilling some piece of a quest... but still allowing a wider diversity for getting there than currently exits.

I consider, almost, if I vice-grip my inner-thigh hard enough, it to be worth the effort of having an almost VoN5 get together over the course of an hour... but fall apart for not having 2 people with high enough (arbitrary) Wisdom scores to stand a chance of doing the quest (or landing a Rogue!)... to attempting The Crucible and getting nothing but a repair bill and an electicity usage bump.

[Zillee]

Found it. It's nice and clear.

http://ddowiki.com/page/File:M_crucible_maze.png

[sephiroth1084]

Also, there is a valve in a side room underwater before the swim that has a valve that someone else can hit to make the swim easier for whoever is actually addressing the trial.

[Kushiel]

I'm not against tweaks like this... I just don't want the whole quest redesigned and thus losing a lot of the appeal. I like the challenge of Crucible. I don't want to see it homogenized to lose that challenge - as has happened to other quests in the game.


But, a stone-flush like you suggest would make the quest more palatable without taking away challenge.

Responses like this are like having a conversation. Discussing how one players annoyance can broaded views and explore alternatives. Not squashing a disenting voice can lead to places of which you've never thought... and one can find enjoyment or value there too. Some of y'all could take note...

[Dreamshifter]

Ahh, Crucible. It certainly is a fitting quest, story-wise. I mean, it would definitely weed out squishy people. I can honestly say, though, that it isn't one of my favorites (and this from someone who enjoys The Pit).

Take last lifetime. We had 5 people in there, and two with Evasion. The swim should be easy, right? Especially with one being a Monk. Running it on Elite at 18 (give or take, mostly for favor), should be able to make it, right? Well, the Rogue (she's my wife, so I get to make fun of her, it's somewhere in the marriage agreement) is hopeless, so we are really counting on the Monk. Our first attempt, she dies. On the last set of spikes, between the two gates. Which can only be opened from the other side. What a place to have to restart the quest from. And that's just the last lifetime.

I think, overall, that I'd like quests like this to be optional, non-flagging quests. These, and any and all "protect Coyle" type quests (grrr, Coyle :mad:). I can't say I ever found Crucible any fun, and it's never been a sense of accomplishment once it is done. More like "Oh, thank goodness I don't have to run that freaking quest for another lifetime". Relief that the torture is finally over, really. It was only ever even bearable on my Monk lifetime, and even then, not fun, just bearable. And I was the one doing all the work then.

So, I definitely feel the OP's pain. That said, I couldn't support changing this quest. I could definitely get behind never making anything like this a flagging quest ever again, especially in a level range where there is (still) a severe shortage of quests to run.

[Elaril]

<3 Crucible

<3 forum rage

<3 people tooting their own horn

Like the idea of a soulstone flusher.

Dislike the idea of bypassing Crucible trials using martial means.

[JollySwagMan]

Crucible is one of my favourite quests, mostly for the trap rooms and swim...the end fight is a bit of an anticlimax though compared to the rest of it!

did you know that with enough Swim you can go against the current? :)

[Emili]

I luv the crucible... I think is one of the most fun quests at it's level.

... as for the swim can do it on any class on elite when practiced up some (meaning I run it a few times recently).

[Calebro]

did you know that with enough Swim you can go against the current? :)

Which is precisely why I specifically ask that no one casts Merfolk's Blessing if I'm the one doing the swim. With typical swim speed, you have just enough to hold steady when going against the current, in case you need to pot up. Merfolk's screws that up and makes you backtrack instead.
So some people may like to get Merfolk's cast on them before the swim, I hate it. I usually save the shrine in case someone does cast it against my wishes and against my request. That way I can just shrine and get rid of it.

[Kushiel]

Which is precisely why I specifically ask that no one casts Merfolk's Blessing if I'm the one doing the swim. With typical swim speed, you have just enough to hold steady when going against the current, in case you need to pot up. Merfolk's screws that up and makes you backtrack instead.
So some people may like to get Merfolk's cast on them before the swim, I hate it. I usually save the shrine in case someone does cast it against my wishes and against my request. That way I can just shrine and get rid of it.

And benefits/detriments to doing what someone else thinks is "right" for this quest at any given moment/point.

So "simple" and straightforeward, indeed. ;-}

[Calebro]

And benefits/detriments to doing what someone else thinks is "right" for this quest at any given moment/point.

So "simple" and straightforeward, indeed. ;-}

It's more a preference. The usual preference is to have it cast. The way that I like to do the swim would be considered unusual I suppose. That's why I specifically state that I don't want it. But some people are so used to casting it that they simply do so anyway, which is why I try to save the shrine.
I don't fault them for doing what they're used to doing, but I do try to have a backup in case that happens.

[Vormaerin]

While there may be "hundreds" of quests in the game... there are nine (9!) that are level 14. PoP/Madstone/Crucible are 3 *required* flagging mechanisms for TOR at that range. Inferno/Ghosts/Flesh/Vol are 4 *required* flagging mechanisms for (something I've never run and don't readily know the name of) at that range.

14 is a skimpy level.

The quest you don't know is Litany.

I'm confused. Are you trying to argue that there isn't enough xp to get past lvl 14 without doing Crucible and Tor? Because that's completely false, especially if you are streaking on hard. That was true at one point in the past, but that's not been true for a long time. You aren't talking about a TRx2 or anything, right/

There's tons of xp. And I don't mean by quest repetition either. Around lvl 12 or so, I switch my streak to hard since I mostly play 1st life, untwinked characters in small groups. And I still go through the levels without completing all the quests and without repeating any for xp either. I only repeat quests for loot and not much of that. Rather do without.

Really, the only time I repeat quests a lot is when trying to figure them out and my guildies tend to get frustrated before I do and look it up on the web anyway. So that limits that.

I guess I just don't have a lot of sympathy for "I don't like this quest, so screw everyone who does and change it to suit me."

Btw, hirelings can make the swim. Last time I did the quest, our swimmer made a mistake and got killed. So he used a hireling to swim his stone through the quest and rez him at the end.

[Kushiel]

Crucible is one of my favourite quests, mostly for the trap rooms and swim...the end fight is a bit of an anticlimax though compared to the rest of it!

did you know that with enough Swim you can go against the current? :)

Aye... and with my bubble-belt and a buffed str of 20 I have a good enough swim in places to fight the current. Have gotten a few brief looks around at various places. It is not *fun* enough to attempt multiple times in a life to perfect (with this class, and race, and attribute spread).

But when a lapse of mouse control happens, or my camera angle is not pitch perfect... it's me versus spear shafts (honestly, more often than the pointy bits) and a massive influx of damage that swimming while chugging CSW pots, and maybe having some Aid/Greater Hero/Stoneskin left-overs just don't cut. So little chance to recover so deep into a place. The unforgiving nature - and lack of options for working around/recovering from - sucks huge bloody gobs out of enjoying the attempts. It does not have to change radically, but somehow it could be "better." ;-}

[Calebro]

Inferno/Ghosts/Flesh/Vol are 4 *required* flagging mechanisms for (something I've never run and don't readily know the name of) at that range.

And comments like this one are the reason for my earlier comment.
If you had really been playing almost every day for six years (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4313634&postcount=21) as you claimed, then you would have surely run Litany/Abbot in that time. You would have surely run enough Crucibles that you would have had more than a single worthwhile experience there.

Once again, practice and knowledge. You need more of both. And forum dates mean nothing.

[stoerm]

Also, there is a valve in a side room underwater before the swim that has a valve that someone else can hit to make the swim easier for whoever is actually addressing the trial.

Why this is not mentioned / used more is a mystery to me.


And comments like this one are the reason for my earlier comment.
If you had really been playing almost every day for six years (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4313634&postcount=21) as you claimed, then you would have surely run Abbot in that time. You would have surely run enough Crucibles that you would have had more than a single worthwhile experience there.

To be fair you're wrong. There are many ways to play the game, and doing all content ASAP, or at all, is not what all do. Took me almost 2.5 years before I ran HoX or DQ (done each once). Yet to run Abbot, ToD, Titan, SoS, the Cannith raids, or set foot in Amrath. I play several nights a week on avg, usually more, and have only capped two characters.

If somebody hates a quest I can imagine it's something they begrudgingly bear once on each life. Perhaps they'd learn to like it but it's not something you can force. The OP has a right to his opinion and to enjoy the game how he likes. I personally both dread and enjoy Crucible.

P.S. I set aside a bit of time to learn it better, because I felt like the OP. I soloed it on my capped PM. Having the puzzle map and ddoor helped a lot. I still can't do the puzzle without help, nor swim it easily but I feel more comfortable about it. I think the quest does not need changing.

[Vormaerin]

Athen you would have surely run Litany/Abbot in that time. You would have surely run enough Crucibles that you would have had more than a single worthwhile experience there.



This is really not true. Lots and lots of players play in small, static groups that do one or two quests a night because they don't zerg (through choice or capability) and play lots of alts. And people complain about the Necro packs endlessly. I can easiy imagine someone not bothering to grind the sigil pieces to do Litany.

As for Abbott.... *snickers* I dare say the portion of the population that has done that raid is quite small. Quite a lot don't do any raids at all.

[Kushiel]

And comments like this one are the reason for my earlier comment.
If you had really been playing almost every day for six years (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4313634&postcount=21) as you claimed, then you would have surely run Litany/Abbot in that time. You would have surely run enough Crucibles that you would have had more than a single worthwhile experience there.

Once again, practice and knowledge. You need more of both. And forum dates mean nothing.

Never been in either. Probably done the flagging quests several times (Vol the most (because even without the perfect group at any difficulty, it has a chance of completion and can be amusing), various and several attempts at Ghosts that have ended in various and several ways (most, not fun), Flesh probably not quite once a life, on average, Inferno by a large amount the very least because... it is a PITA!).

Get this... I've never (NEVER) been in Shroud either. I've not even flagged for it each life.

There is, with effort, stuff that can be done to get to 20 (thankfully!). I'd love it if more of what could be done had optional paths and was enjoyable to a wider array of playstyles.

No, honestly, I've had 1 worthwhile experience with The Crucible. You could probably search the forums for that event, Sarlona world, because I tried to effusively express my gratitude to people (~2years ago?) who made it a non-traumatic journey.

We obviously cannot map each others experiences with playing the game over one anothers. I'm of the mind though that The World can be a much broader place for playing differently - and having options to still reach completions and valuable XP without so many, as someone else put it, Root Canals.

[Calebro]

To be fair you're wrong. There are many ways to play the game, and doing all content ASAP, or at all, is not what all do. Took me almost 2.5 years before I ran HoX or DQ (done each once). Yet to run Abbot, ToD, Titan, SoS, the Cannith raids, or set foot in Amrath. I play several nights a week on avg, usually more, and have only capped two characters.

If somebody hates a quest I can imagine it's something they begrudgingly bear once on each life. Perhaps they'd learn to like it but it's not something you can force. The OP has a right to his opinion and to enjoy the game how he likes. I personally both dread and enjoy Crucible.

To be fair, all of that existed for quite a while before you started playing. There was a time when Reaver was endgame, there were only half as many quests, and there was very little to do once you reached cap. There was a time when Abbot was endgame, there weren't nearly as many quests, and there was very little to do once you reached cap. There was a time when Shroud was endgame, there was very little to do once you reached cap, and there were no updates for an EXTREMELY long time.
During that time he would have found himself looking for things to do. Abbot was released four and a half years ago, and much of that time there was little to do once you hit cap, so anyone that actually played (non-PD, which he already said was true) during that time has been inside Litany (and now Shroud as well?!?).
If he says that he's been playing almost every day since headstart, and he also says that he doesn't play PD, and he also says that he's never been inside Litany or Shroud, I am inclined to firmly believe that one of those statements is untrue.
Which one would make the most sense as an untruth?

But I've derailed this thread enough, and I'll be going now.

[Kushiel]

To be fair, all of that existed for quite a while before you started playing. There was a time when Reaver was endgame, there were only half as many quests, and there was very little to do once you reached cap. There was a time when Abbot was endgame, there weren't nearly as many quests, and there was very little to do once you reached cap. There was a time when Shroud was endgame, there was very little to do once you reached cap, and there were no updates for an EXTREMELY long time.
During that time he would have found himself looking for things to do. Abbot was released four and a half years ago, and much of that time there was little to do once you hit cap, so anyone that actually played (non-PD, which he already said was true) during that time has been inside Litany.
If he says that he's been playing almost every day since headstart, and he also says that he doesn't play PD, and he also says that he's never been inside Litany, I am inclined to firmly believe that one of those statements is untrue.
Which one would make the most sense as an untruth?

I went into three different worlds, poked at a variety of builds, and walked all over the available non-end-game content that I enjoyed. I'm not PD. At any particular level-cap [for the available content] I didn't hang out grinding materials nor specific gear.

There is lots of room in the world for what you think may be "untrue" but is yet still real.

I've also experienced the quests in Reavers Refuge and Amrath - and not found much fun in any of those. There are foes or mechanics I find to be severely limiting in enjoying the game. They do, however, both have some pretty nice slayer zones. I think I've also done maybe 3-4 each of HoX and VoD... and never had *fun* doing them although at least 1 of each was successful. The getting there, the people not doing what the leader said, the abilities of the foes, the deadly mess of the Sub altogether... for me, just not fun. Still, on runs to get people their monk pj's - there is some nice slayer XP to be had from bluring and hasting people. ;-}

Oooooh, and the new Cannith slayer halls. Picking up scrolls and killing things thru there has been some good XP at a couple points. Couple halls I wandered into, though, were sudden deaths that took place way way quickly enough for me to know I won't rely on that zone as a source of leveling. Unfun... but hightly avoidable.

[alexp80]

Is it possible that every single quest in the game that has some kind of challenge should be stupid for someone and needs to be nerfed to look like all the other quests in the game?

I've done the swim with no-evasion first life drow wizard with 200hp at norm, long time ago when I didn't even know of pots that could be drunk underwater. Sure was difficult, but far away from an impossible task.

Now with an evasion toon I complete that at level on elite in less then 30min.
So if you don't like the quest, skip that, or flag at lvl20 on casual.
I personally don't like inferno of the damned, but I will not complain the quest itself for sure.

[stoerm]

During that time he would have found himself looking for things to do. Abbot was released four and a half years ago, and much of that time there was little to do once you hit cap, so anyone that actually played (non-PD, which he already said was true) during that time has been inside Litany.
If he says that he's been playing almost every day since headstart, and he also says that he doesn't play PD, and he also says that he's never been inside Litany, I am inclined to firmly believe that one of those statements is untrue.
Which one would make the most sense as an untruth?

What's more likely, that the OP is lying, or simply a casual player? For me it's the latter. Why would he lie? I hear what you're saying ... on average a player from headstart would have done those quests, but with thousands of players there are all sorts included. Not everyone is a hard core player even after years of playing.

[epopotamus]

i have to thank mr cow for helping me with my crucible maze problems when i was learning.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/Ukenburger/DDO%20Catalog/CrucibleMaze.gif

the reflex jump room for the 2nd horn, i learned through trial and error, since the shrine is right there if u die, just run around as a ghost to familiarize yourself with the rooms.

doors of death horn, i only ever bother to do it on a 10wis or lower char, not sure how different it is on high wis chars:
talk to the book, close the window, and it will say something along the lines of "death is behind door number X"
(translation...horn is behind that door)
doors are numbered:

------door------
|=3' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '|=4
|=2' ' ' ' ' B ' ' ' ' |=5
|=1' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '|=6
-----|stairs|----

B = book on the stand

...swim was annoying, i remember following confident ppl through on normal runs, so if i died...which was often, they could grab my stone. trial and error is all there is to it.
i can now do the swim 4/5 times on any char now without getting touched, but i still occasionally get hit/clipped on elite, or when u slide and get multiple hits and ding, not much u can do.

(that stone dump lever would be an awesome addition, maybe make deaths in that area drop into a small room above the 2nd horn shrine, then pulling a lever drops the stones down, similar to reavers fate)

[Xyfiel]

Swim is not a dump stat?:rolleyes:

I love crucible, something for everyone including people with swim and diplomacy. Remember swim buffs and hp buffs, including temp hps. First blade can be gone around on the top of it. Last blades can be timed when they stop. Rest is maneuvering, and doing it a few times will help you memorize it. To elaborate, even though you have completed the quest, run back to the water and go thru it multiple times until you get a good feel for it. Do this after the rest of the party has left to lower dungeon scaling and incoming damage. Can be done for agility also.

Just like Tomb of the Tormented, once you know how to do it, it isn't hard at all.

[Flavilandile]

*shrug*

Crucible is one of the most fun quest in game.
It has challenges for everybody : fights to please the fighters, riddle to please those brainy types, mario stuff to please the mario lovers, and a nice maze.

Side note : Crucible, like all the other Gianthold quests used to be run regularly by LVL 8/9 parties, when it was not locked out to characters under a specific level and when the XP system worked another way. ( Death Penalty, more XP for doing quests way over your level )

At that time nobody whined that the swim was too hard.
Actually it was common practice to /death at the swim part and hitch a ride in the rogue/evader backpack to the chest ( after completion ) and to the horn ( if the rogue/evader didn't feel he could stand up the fight or sneak his way in and out. )

[Dragavon]

It Is Nothing That Is *FUN*. It is UNFUN. It is stupid!

I do so not agree. Crucible is imo one of the best quests in the game. You need to learn it, and know what to do. When you do it is a lot of fun in there ;)

[Puppetian]

Crucible rocks, it's the best quest in GH.

Man up.

[luvirini]

Yes Crucible is one of the fun quests, as it actually requires more than just fighting your way through.

Only bit annoying part in PUGing it is to keep people from killing the archers in the maze.

[zwiebelring]

The Crucible is the very essential thought of DnD. Different classes are needed to succeed and still combat all over the place.

Even if GH is a little dull storywise and presentation, The Crucible is a quest in which you literally need everything throughout the classes. And this is a sign for very good balance. Same with VoN5 and AtDQ1.

Well fun is up to you. No fun for you? Don't run it. Giant Hold is no endgame any more so you are not excluded from high levels. The raid you say? Okay, just flag on casual. The streak bonus? Well, some practise can be expected, right?

[delsoboss]

doors of death horn, i only ever bother to do it on a 10wis or lower char, not sure how different it is on high wis chars:
talk to the book, close the window, and it will say something along the lines of "death is behind door number X"
(translation...horn is behind that door)
doors are numbered:
------door------
|=3' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '|=4
|=2' ' ' ' ' B ' ' ' ' |=5
|=1' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '|=6
-----|stairs|----

B = book on the stand



Ah! So that's the way those doors are numbered! Thank you sir, i've got the pack on the last sale, and i've done the quest only on my capped rogue and the trial of instinct is the only one where i go "meh whatever" and hit the same door over and over evading the traps until i get the horn.

BTW i can just say that in my (limited) DDO experience beating the crucible norm alone (with a hireling) on my capped rogue for the first time no spoilers figuring it out on the way in 110 mins (and 1 reenter 'cause i screwed the puzzle and was locked in) was the thing that made me really almost scream "F**K YEAH" with a true sense of accomplishment at the end of the quest.

After that to help a couple of friends i practiced the maze on casual alone to learn a way to do it with a hireling set on passive at the levers.

The swim is just a matter of practice, the first time on normal i hit all the spikes and enjoyed all the "evade", the last time (6th time doing the quest) i hit the spikes one time getting to the horn and one time getting out.

[Nospheratus]

It still is the best quest in this game!

[MrWizard]

well, to be honest, the swim is the major reason I seldom do this quest.

I have not done it lately and maybe they changed the damage, but it was full of fail for no reason. And if you were lucky enough to have someone with evasion and he died...well, kinda a bummer.

Look, challenge is fun and all, but I am sure if you looked at the number of times that quest is run you will see it much lower than others in the area....for only one single reason.

I think the quest is grand...until we either all die in the traps or have to stand around like dufuses while someone goes around and gets the key.

For newer pugs this quest can be a complete and utter impossible quest to do at level on harder settings... for TRs and experienced not so bad....

wish there was another way around this issue, like the quest, hate having to deal with looking for a specific build or everyone dying....the rest of the quest rocks...

[Yvonnel-1]

nice quest, great design, fighting and thinking (at first at least;)), teamplay and being skilled needed


sorry, but i really cant imagine what else u could expect from a good quest


/this is no joke

[Merrelll]

Now mind you I love this quest. At level, this quest gives alot of xp. Standing around for someone to make a 5-8 minutes swim is no big thing. Or at least it should not be one. And as far as an evasion having to make that swim? My at level Cleric did it. I was the only one in the party who was willing to try doing it. Our Rogue was clueless about what to do. So I showed him how to make a fast successful swim. Now mind you I had plenty of experience with the quest when my cleric made the swim. I knew what was up. Some quests are geared for certain classes to shine. The Crucible happens to be one of those. It all boils down to teamwork. Not having fun with the quest? There will always be some who do not like a quest for various reasons. And others who love a quest. So it may not be for you. Running a quest once and be done with it is what most people do, if they don't like the quest.

[moops]

To be honest, I hate the maze more than anything else in this quest.

On elite I've seen bards, wizs. clerics, sorcs and fvs make the swim. It is not the class it is the person. . ..and even the persons lag issues.

[Antheal]

Just have to have a high-reflex person and someone who knows the puzzle and its a piece of cake.

That right there is half the problem. It completely locks out newer players and those who don't have well-practiced twitch skills.

[Nospheratus]

That right there is half the problem. It completely locks out newer players and those who don't have well-practiced twitch skills.

Newer players don't need to do it on elite. I can't remember, but doesn't this quest have a disclaimer at the entrance stating it's challenge?

On normal you can make several mistakes in the so-called "epic swim" and not die, or with an evasion character, you can probably make all the mistakes and survive!

On elite it's doable without evasion, on hard it doable if you know it and on normal it's just doable. On casual you can probably just let the water current take you and still survive.

[2x4]

However many years it has been around, and however many paltry attempts I've made at running this quest, I've had exactly one (1) attempt at it that I would consider worthwhile. It is a Frelling STUPID quest that would benefit from having some other way for a party to get passed the swim... even if it means several more tough fights (that *the party* can move to encounter *together* instead of standing idly by waiting [hoping!] for one person with enough twitch skills, the "right" character attributes, or tons of HP and stacks of Cure Serious Pots to make it thru... and still encounter a crappy situation they may not be able to stand up to or handle.

It is a base 14 level quest.

The best run I've ever had at it? I think I got dragged thru it above level myself by folks 3-4 levels higher than me, who knew exactly what to do and had the "right" gear and player skills to pull off. Basically, I was there for hasting and buffing.

Mostly that quest, in the times I've tried to run it, has been a Waste of Time. It means gaining No XP due to deaths, re-entries, or the spread of levels of people who can/will do it.

I guess, if i'm lucky, I'm well experienced enough now to make it thru 1/8th of the swim and consume ~30 pots.

It Is Nothing That Is *FUN*. It is UNFUN. It is stupid!

For the love of Ehlonna - if you can't/won't revisit stupid time-sink quests like this, at least don't make any more of them in the future. And in that range of quests from ~12-thru-17 at least try (TRY?!) to make some that are fun to run that don't have borked mechanics, completely PITA bosses, don't take huge swaths of time, nor leave several party members facing lengths of time just watching one other player... *Play* the "Game!"

Yes, I know some of you can do this... even while lacking the HP or the gear or the whatever-else-it-is that others scramble for and still die for having. I bow in your general (superior) direction. I'd just like to have some mid-to-high level content in a *game* I "play" for FUN that isn't a PITA!

I agree with your sentiment. The Pit and Crucible are 2 quests I rarely run. I just capped my TR and never entered either of those quests.

With the added content there are now so many options for level advancement that these two quests just are not needed. This time I used slayer XP more than ever b4. It's nice when you start getting the 17,000 or 18,000 + slayer XP for the high slayer counts in Amrath and the Vale.

My point is the number of options now just allow for a varied path to cap. I think Crucible and The Pit should go away like the "protect the NPC" and the "needing multiple party members to activate a switch."

My 2 Cents

[FranOhmsford]

i have to thank mr cow for helping me with my crucible maze problems when i was learning.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/Ukenburger/DDO%20Catalog/CrucibleMaze.gif

the reflex jump room for the 2nd horn, i learned through trial and error, since the shrine is right there if u die, just run around as a ghost to familiarize yourself with the rooms.

doors of death horn, i only ever bother to do it on a 10wis or lower char, not sure how different it is on high wis chars:
talk to the book, close the window, and it will say something along the lines of "death is behind door number X"
(translation...horn is behind that door)
doors are numbered:

------door------
|=3' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '|=4
|=2' ' ' ' ' B ' ' ' ' |=5
|=1' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '|=6
-----|stairs|----

B = book on the stand

...swim was annoying, i remember following confident ppl through on normal runs, so if i died...which was often, they could grab my stone. trial and error is all there is to it.
i can now do the swim 4/5 times on any char now without getting touched, but i still occasionally get hit/clipped on elite, or when u slide and get multiple hits and ding, not much u can do.

(that stone dump lever would be an awesome addition, maybe make deaths in that area drop into a small room above the 2nd horn shrine, then pulling a lever drops the stones down, similar to reavers fate)

OK so after seeing this amazing GIF I just took my lvl 20 Rogue into Crucible with Wyoh.

So, this quest cannot be soloed at all then?

Wyoh would not remain at I valve even on passive and stand your ground - Valve was removed from my targeter the instant I went round the corner and even if it hadn't been I still have to pick up the rune and get out of the room it's in before I can tell her to turn the valve a 3rd {I think} time anyway.

So how am I gonna flag my rogue for Tor/Reaver's Fate now? What with Bravery causing a lack of over level groups for any and all quests.

[Jeromio]

IMHO, the Crucible is fine as it is. If a group has problems with it, they can always do it on normal or even casual.
I think the main reason why some people complain is that they insist on maintaining the elite bravery bonus, and then cannot handle the quest difficulty.

This is one of the old quests that don't need any dev revisit. Better that they improve quests like Tomb of the Tormented.

[Nospheratus]

Better that they improve quests like Tomb of the Tormented.

What's wrong with it? It's a fine quest with very good exp. IIRC usually do it on elite with over 1k/min xp.

It will take a while to complete if you are doing it for the first time though... Can't see anything wrong with that.

[epopotamus]

OK so after seeing this amazing GIF I just took my lvl 20 Rogue into Crucible with Wyoh.

So, this quest cannot be soloed at all then?

Wyoh would not remain at I valve even on passive and stand your ground - Valve was removed from my targeter the instant I went round the corner and even if it hadn't been I still have to pick up the rune and get out of the room it's in before I can tell her to turn the valve a 3rd {I think} time anyway.

So how am I gonna flag my rogue for Tor/Reaver's Fate now? What with Bravery causing a lack of over level groups for any and all quests.

2 points:

1. soloing the maze (without a hireling) isnt possible anymore since they put an invisible wall at the horn door. used to be able to run through before it closed.

2. soloing the maze (with a hireling) is still possible, but you MUST disable auto targeting and not click on anything with your mouse (press T for fps mode, and use the interact button on your keyboard, while pointing the reticule at the runes so they light up but arent in the focus window works). but u gotta be quite careful to not deselect the valves. ive had some bad experiences where ive deselected the valve then been stuck, luckily i was on an arcane so i could ddoor...but for most it means a recall

if u just want to get flagged, ive had success with just throwing the lfm up as [quick crucible for flag, need a valve puller](14-20) if u can do the trapped room/swim or some other variation. generally if u just need another warm body who doesnt have any responsibilities, ppl seem to join pretty quick lol

[Kromize]

I like crucible. Never really had any problems with it. However the swim is the one part that get's most people. Perhaps if they put a lever at the end of the tunnel you could pull to turn off the torrents for good. That way parties could go in after a reflex twitcher has swam through, and continue the party based quest.

Otherwise, I wouldn't change a thing.

[FranOhmsford]

2 points:

1. soloing the maze (without a hireling) isnt possible anymore since they put an invisible wall at the horn door. used to be able to run through before it closed.

2. soloing the maze (with a hireling) is still possible, but you MUST disable auto targeting and not click on anything with your mouse (pressing T for fps mode, and using the interact button on your keyboard, while pointing the reticle at the runes so they light up, but arent in the focus window works). but u gotta be quite careful to not deselect the valves. ive had some bad experiences where ive deselected the valve then been stuck, luckily i was on an arcane so i could ddoor...but for most it means a recall

if u just want to get flagged, ive had success with just throwing the lfm up as "quick crucible for flag, need a valve puller" if u can do the trapped room/swim, or some variation. generally if u just need another warm body who doesnt have any responsibilities, ppl seem to join pretty quick lol

I can't get past the maze - I barely know the rest of the quest!

Still trying to figure out how I managed to get my Cleric, Paladin and Monk flagged {well the monk got in a good group}.
But I still have 20+ other characters who are gonna need flagging on their first lives and of course each time I TR I have to go through it again - Aaaaarrggh!
Btw - My monk was unable to jump across the shrine room {whilst I was meditating to replenish Ki for Abundant Step the party's Wizzy did it - Also I got through the swim on that monk with advice from the party leader but died against the mobs on the other side, I feel it's a bit unfair that one person - possibly the weakest in the group - has to do this alone}. That was on Normal btw.

[Caliban]

Seriously, the Crucible isn't that hard. If you can't be bothered to learn it after YEARS of playing DDO, then the problem isn't the quest, it's you.

Barring lag issues, anyone can do it with a decently built and geared character.

Seriously, I can do it (including all optionals) on my base 8 str, 8 dex, 6 cha wizard with 0 ranks of swim. And I learned it the hard way - doing the quest and taking it slow.

Now? The DDO wiki has a complete walkthrough of the quest, including maps and pictures.

http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Crucible

[Hellllboy]

I will agree that the swim is hard. I personally can not complete it with out a death due to my lack of Mario Skills and poor Reflex Save.

I am chiming in on this as it is next on my BB list (to complete tonight).

All of you Sarlo's that can make the swim and are with in level-please pm me for help tonight. ;)

The remaining portion of this quest is easy peasy for me-I have played it from the beginning and enjoy the challanges.

IMO its fun!

[Mithran]

When the quest was brand new, a couple members of Twilight Avengers and a couple members of The Hand of the Black Tower and a couple other random veterans went through it in a pug. It took us a few hours to figure it out, get all the chests and get through the maze and swim. We didn't know there was a second chest in the swim, then.

I'm with Memnir, here. This is a great quest, challenging and requiring either practice or exceptional skill.

[Missing_Minds]

To be honest, I hate the maze more than anything else in this quest.

On elite I've seen bards, wizs. clerics, sorcs and fvs make the swim. It is not the class it is the person. . ..and even the persons lag issues.

It is also realizing that the "traps" in the swim will hit you 5-10 feet out from where the points actually are due to the client-server positioning.

As I stated, some people can make it blind folded, but many can not.

I'm not asking that the challenge of the swim be reduced at all. What I hate is the fact that if you can't make it, nor did any one in the party, it is a wipe and you have to release and come back in. Which adds even more time in on it. And some people refuse to make that swim as well.

So.. flush the stones. A gathering mechanism is all I'm asking for to alleviate those issues. Even quests with a penalty box have a method to retrieve people placed within them. This penalty box does not.

[ButtersStotch]

I can get through the maze by myself (with a hireling). I can do the swim and kill the mobs on the other side. I can flit through the trap-infested speed run to the horn behind the door. I can survive the test of 'instinct,' regardless of my Wisdom. I can even gorram -murder- the bosses at the end.

I can do this on any class. With any gear. At any (reasonable) level.
(That might be a -bit- of an exaggeration, albeit not by a lot.)



But it isn't -fun- for me. And it isn't fun for the OP and tons of other players. I don't think he's suggesting that they nerf the Crucible. I don't think he wants them to change it, completely remake it, or remove it from existence entirely (which, to be honest, I wouldn't really mind, myself).

He's simply asking for -alternate routes- when -forced flagging- is required. I love Tor. I like the quest itself, and I -love- the dragons. But I would rather get a lobotomy than flag -another- character for Tor because of the Crucible. If I could exchange the Crucible (and maybe even Madstone) for ten other quests, twice as much work, and three days worth of time sink in order to gain access to Tor, I would do so happily.

It isn't a matter of being -incapable- of doing the Crucible. It's a matter of being -forced- to do something I absolutely abhor in order to open something I enjoy immensely. I'm not sure why having more options should be a bad thing. :(

[Ague]

I have loved Crucible since the first time i ran it... Granted, my first run ended in a wipe, but we were all first timers on that run, so we chalked it up to a learning experience... I tend to like quests like that over the normal DDO hack 'n slash template that's used often... Call me crazy, but it's in my top 5 for fav quests, right along with Pit, Coal Chamber, and Shadow Crypt... :eek:

[WangChi]

...It Is Nothing That Is *FUN*. It is UNFUN. It is stupid!...

Have to disagree here, the quest is certainly not easy, but it can be a lot of fun, and what makes it fun is the total switch-up in style from all the other hack'n'slash type quests.

[Nospheratus]

It is also realizing that the "traps" in the swim will hit you 5-10 feet out from where the points actually are due to the client-server positioning.

As I stated, some people can make it blind folded, but many can not.

I'm not asking that the challenge of the swim be reduced at all. What I hate is the fact that if you can't make it, nor did any one in the party, it is a wipe and you have to release and come back in. Which adds even more time in on it. And some people refuse to make that swim as well.

So.. flush the stones. A gathering mechanism is all I'm asking for to alleviate those issues. Even quests with a penalty box have a method to retrieve people placed within them. This penalty box does not.

Good idea! Wouldn't hurt to have the soulstones dragged to a part of the water, or not, accessible to the characters that are still alive.


I can get through the maze by myself (with a hireling). I can do the swim and kill the mobs on the other side. I can flit through the trap-infested speed run to the horn behind the door. I can survive the test of 'instinct,' regardless of my Wisdom. I can even gorram -murder- the bosses at the end.

I can do this on any class. With any gear. At any (reasonable) level.
(That might be a -bit- of an exaggeration, albeit not by a lot.)



But it isn't -fun- for me. And it isn't fun for the OP and tons of other players. I don't think he's suggesting that they nerf the Crucible. I don't think he wants them to change it, completely remake it, or remove it from existence entirely (which, to be honest, I wouldn't really mind, myself).

He's simply asking for -alternate routes- when -forced flagging- is required. I love Tor. I like the quest itself, and I -love- the dragons. But I would rather get a lobotomy than flag -another- character for Tor because of the Crucible. If I could exchange the Crucible (and maybe even Madstone) for ten other quests, twice as much work, and three days worth of time sink in order to gain access to Tor, I would do so happily.

It isn't a matter of being -incapable- of doing the Crucible. It's a matter of being -forced- to do something I absolutely abhor in order to open something I enjoy immensely. I'm not sure why having more options should be a bad thing. :(

I guess that's something you and the OP must come to terms then. Because if you want to do tor, you have to do crucible. And i seriously hope it doesn't change...

It's like doing shroud without flagging, or abbot, or ToD. It makes sense, even from a storyline PoV, to "flag" for these quests...

[Infant]

Also I got through the swim on that monk with advice from the party leader but died against the mobs on the other side, I feel it's a bit unfair that one person - possibly the weakest in the group - has to do this alone}. That was on Normal btw.

IIRC, maybe I am confusing something, you don't have to fight them. Use an invis clicky, drink a haste pot, grab the horn and jump back into the water. Drink CSW pots underwater before swimming back.

As to the maze: You can do it with hire only. You have to park your hire at a lever, on passive. Then click on "activate on hirelings bar" when you are in position. Sometimes he will ignore you, sometimes he will try to run to another object. Keep clicking, eventually he will use the lever. Changing your targeting settings in the option panel, as someone suggested, might work out better.



I think Crucible and The Pit should go away like the "protect the NPC" and the "needing multiple party members to activate a switch."
Really? Probably more than 80% of the people in this thread like the quest, many consider it one of their most favourite quests. And it just "should go away" because of few people who don't like it? This is why we can't have nice things...

Infant

[ButtersStotch]

I guess that's something you and the OP must come to terms then. Because if you want to do tor, you have to do crucible. And i seriously hope it doesn't change...

It's like doing shroud without flagging, or abbot, or ToD. It makes sense, even from a storyline PoV, to "flag" for these quests...


So then do you suppose it would be better to -pike- a 'flag' than to -work- toward it a different way?

I've held the door for quite a few people to flag Shroud. If those people are happy to stand there and do nothing, then collect a stone and move on to the Shroud, that's their prerogative. I bear them no ill will and, in fact, am more than happy to help. After all, not everyone -enjoys- Let Sleeping Dust Lie in the way that I do.

Would I be opposed to the Vale having a trade-out? Absolutely not. If someone had the option of doing three alternate quests in lieu of doing that -one- quest.. I seriously don't see how that could be a problem. I'd even -pay- for those extra quests on top of my VIP subscription and/or owning Gianthold, Necropolis, or the Vale of Twilight.


I fail to see how having more options for flagging is worse, 'even from a storyline PoV,' than having someone stand in the doorway until completion is granted.

[Nospheratus]

So then do you suppose it would be better to -pike- a 'flag' than to -work- toward it a different way?

I've held the door for quite a few people to flag Shroud. If those people are happy to stand there and do nothing, then collect a stone and move on to the Shroud, that's their prerogative. I bear them no ill will and, in fact, am more than happy to help. After all, not everyone -enjoys- Let Sleeping Dust Lie in the way that I do.

Would I be opposed to the Vale having a trade-out? Absolutely not. If someone had the option of doing three alternate quests in lieu of doing that -one- quest.. I seriously don't see how that could be a problem. I'd even -pay- for those extra quests on top of my VIP subscription and/or owning Gianthold, Necropolis, or the Vale of Twilight.


I fail to see how having more options for flagging is worse, 'even from a storyline PoV,' than having someone stand in the doorway until completion is granted.

It has nothing to do with piking or helping others flag. I'v done it before, a lot of times. I love the quest and I have repeated it to an extent some would call "ad nauseum" when the cap was 14.


I guess it's a choice. Not everyone needs to do every quest in the game...

[In_Like_Flynn]

The Crucible is a masterpiece from a time when quests were created for groups, not soloists.

[Chai]

Crucible and the Pit are two of the better quests that clearly demonstrate this game is not just another MMO clone. Throw coal chamber in there as well. In most MMOs you walk into a linear quest where you kill mobs, move forward, kill mobs, move forward../repeat.

I like taking old WOW and EQ players I used to play with in those games through these specific quests to illustrate that very difference.

DDO has those kinds of linear quests, but it also has quests where you need to backtrack, split up, use different points of entry, find the room that contains the objective (rather than being "walk forward"), open unlocked doors, etc. Its not a game where you mindlessly kill mobs wandering around outdoors and bring their pelts back to quest givers until cap, then raid after cap.

[Elation]

So, your saying in your groups everyone runs the traps and everyone does the swim? In my experience it's whoever is best at it while the rest twiddle their thumbs. Hell in the least they could spawn some mobs for the rest or something.

I really don't understand the "get it done" attitude. Do you generally have to eat something you don't like at restaurants in order to be served something you do? Same thing applies here IMO.

IN some of my groups yes we have multiple do the swim some times not, its up to who ever is in the group. Sorry you stand around thats on you. Think about what your saying you generally let who ever is best at it do it. So that means your just being lazy. You are seeming to believe these individual tasks if thats how you want to view them take hours to do. The point is the maze does not take hours and maybe after along day of what ever you rdoing its to much to remember where the crests or located or how to get to them. You dont want to stand around jump in the water simple. other then that each other test takes 45 second agility come on really complain about that one. Takes less then a minute and can be done by any toon. Wisdom book well low wis ftw if not trial an error. Also less then a minute. the swim oh no its so terrible three minutes maybe 4. Also can be done by anyone.

At a resteraunt and and in game if you dont like it run something else. So you miss reaver move on to necro 4. You dont like salad skip to the pasta. You may still miss out on the great and flavorful dressing though. So "IMO" your point is right on move onto a different area or only eat the parts of the plate you enjoy. If its covered with something you dont like dont eat it.

[ButtersStotch]

It has nothing to do with piking or helping others flag. I'v done it before, a lot of times. I love the quest and I have repeated it to an extent some would call "ad nauseum" when the cap was 14.


I guess it's a choice. Not everyone needs to do every quest in the game...

It -is- a choice, but it isn't one I like to make. I -do- the Crucible because I -have to- in order to get to a quest that I do enjoy. Not because I feel the need to do every quest in the game.

In fact, that is why I asked for more options. So I -wouldn't- need to do every quest in the game. There were people saying that the Crucible is a matter of ultra-skill and phenomenal teamwork -- it isn't. I am not a top-tier player. I don't run with widely acclaimed guilds. And I haven't been here as long as you and many other people in this thread.

But I can still do the Crucible by myself (with a hireling for lever pulling).


If, in the storyline, they were to say, 'Prove yourself to me in the Crucible! Or, if you think you can manage, bring to me five slivers of an idol collected from these five quests!' I would be in love. I can still do the Crucible -if I want to.- And I can still flag for Tor (another way) -if I want to.-

Both require work. Both could be fun. Both could appeal to the masses. :)

[ButtersStotch]

As an addendum, I should like to note that I am not trying to detract from anyone's fun. I don't want the Crucible to be -changed,- and I understand that there are many people who enjoy that quest.

Coalescence Chamber is my favorite Vale quest and, though I find myself to be having a very good time in there, I can understand why other people wouldn't find it terribly pleasant. As such, I think that revisiting flagging mechanics or broadening the options or.. -something- isn't too much to at least consider.

[rdasca]

For my money, Crucible is one of the best designed and most fun quests in the game.
One of only a true handful in the game that have a true D&D feel.

This, I love to hate that quest. One of the best moments in game was when a guildie did the swim and we noticed her HP dropping, bit by bit, she had forgot her underwater item, it was great we still give her **** about it today.

So please Devs do not listen to the OP. Do not change one of the few quest that has something more than hack and slash or a mile long floor puzzle. In fact make a couple of more around the same idea, hack and slash is of course fun, but a little change every now and then makes things fun.

[Crazeee]

Best quest ever! (Or at least in the top of my favorite quests)

[Chai]

It -is- a choice, but it isn't one I like to make. I -do- the Crucible because I -have to- in order to get to a quest that I do enjoy. Not because I feel the need to do every quest in the game.

In fact, that is why I asked for more options. So I -wouldn't- need to do every quest in the game. There were people saying that the Crucible is a matter of ultra-skill and phenomenal teamwork -- it isn't. I am not a top-tier player. I don't run with widely acclaimed guilds. And I haven't been here as long as you and many other people in this thread.

But I can still do the Crucible by myself (with a hireling for lever pulling).


If, in the storyline, they were to say, 'Prove yourself to me in the Crucible! Or, if you think you can manage, bring to me five slivers of an idol collected from these five quests!' I would be in love. I can still do the Crucible -if I want to.- And I can still flag for Tor (another way) -if I want to.-

Both require work. Both could be fun. Both could appeal to the masses. :)

When it came out and people didnt have the metagaming knowledge they do today, no one was soloing this quest. It was designed in an era where this game was all about grouping and forced cooperation. Yes, players who have run it quite a few times over the years have the metagaming knowledge needed to solo it quite easily. complete with dungeon scaling and hirelings to assist.

Nowdays the game is designed for soloing, with traps and mob stats that scale depending on how many members there are in the group, as well as quest difficulty chosen. In 2007, normal difficulty was assumed to have a full group. It did not scale for number of players in the group. It wasnt as easy for one or two players to zerg plow a quest repeatedly then as it is now for XP. We also didnt have hirelings. Need another ever pulled? Toss up an LFM.

There are quests I dont necessarily like but still have to run one per toon. I dont necessarily mind it and would not demand a different mechanic to flag for end game simply because its not my favorite quest.

[Beethoven]

That right there is half the problem. It completely locks out newer players and those who don't have well-practiced twitch skills.

How so? The Crucible existed already when I was a new player. I vividly recall feeling useless the first few times through. I didn't know the maze. I couldn't do the swim. My first toon was a Feric (Fighter/Cleric) who couldn't even read the book for any useful result. It bothered me so much I started research the quest on the internet, asked my wife for help with pulling levers and ran it over and over again until I figured out the maze and until I could do the swim. I got rewarded for all these efforts by not only now being useful in the quest but eventually also pulled a Daggertooths Belt (which, back in the day, was a decent item still).

Today we have hirelings which can pull levers for us. So you don't even need the help of a second player when trying learn the quest. It does not lock out new players. It "forces" new players to decide to either practice the quest or be content with having to find someone to help them through it. The only problem here is the sentiment that everyone should be able to beat any quest simply by turning auto-attack on and running through it (or repeatedly mashing one or two buttons while running it on a caster).

It's a sure way to make sure the new player will always remain a new players. Vets didn't become vets because any time they faced a challenge they decided the quest simply is not for them. They got were they are today because whenever they hit something they couldn't beat the first try they kept trying until they mastered the challenge.


But it isn't -fun- for me. And it isn't fun for the OP and tons of other players. I'm not sure why having more options should be a bad thing.

There are also tons of players who don't think it fun if every quest boils down to swinging an axe / casting lightning bolt. So, to be fair to all their players the devs then need go over numerous other quests to include alternate routes for those players? Then someone doesn't like either option in one quest or another they again have to redo it? The reality of the matter is what's fun for one person may be less so for another.

[Jeromio]

What's wrong with it? It's a fine quest with very good exp. IIRC usually do it on elite with over 1k/min xp.

It will take a while to complete if you are doing it for the first time though... Can't see anything wrong with that.

I'm quite surprised you didn't know that in general it's one of the most hated quests ever. :)

Most people tend to find Tomb of the Tormented extremely boring. You basically do the same thing three times, and the process can be quite painful unless you know how to deal with the caged mobs.

The Crucible on the other hand, is fun action most of the time.

[Elation]

I went into three different worlds, poked at a variety of builds, and walked all over the available non-end-game content that I enjoyed. I'm not PD. At any particular level-cap [for the available content] I didn't hang out grinding materials nor specific gear.

There is lots of room in the world for what you think may be "untrue" but is yet still real.

I've also experienced the quests in Reavers Refuge and Amrath - and not found much fun in any of those. There are foes or mechanics I find to be severely limiting in enjoying the game. They do, however, both have some pretty nice slayer zones. I think I've also done maybe 3-4 each of HoX and VoD... and never had *fun* doing them although at least 1 of each was successful. The getting there, the people not doing what the leader said, the abilities of the foes, the deadly mess of the Sub altogether... for me, just not fun. Still, on runs to get people their monk pj's - there is some nice slayer XP to be had from bluring and hasting people. ;-}

Oooooh, and the new Cannith slayer halls. Picking up scrolls and killing things thru there has been some good XP at a couple points. Couple halls I wandered into, though, were sudden deaths that took place way way quickly enough for me to know I won't rely on that zone as a source of leveling. Unfun... but hightly avoidable.

Ok after reading through your threads multiple times this is what it appears, you like to run almost everyday your vip for aslong as you can remember, you want xp for the quests your doing and if the quest is challanging in a way that causes you to face quick painful death its is not fun for you. It is bothersome to have to run a quest that is challanging so you can get back to the easy quest like tor. You want an easy fix button such as hack and slash your way through to avoid doing any challanges. You are not confident in your mouse and or directional skills due to making a mistake ending your fun. You want xp for hacking and killing things but want to make sure you dont die in the process.

Basically he want easy button by pass of slightly challanging quests. New area are not fun for him due to the fact he might walk into a room and get obliterated. So he needs another set of cake walk quests. Ispired quarters may be his best bet but even there if he has no skill he will get owned there for not fun for him. He likes trial by fire i bet you can bash your way through that one. :)

[Kadran]

I have not read every response to this thread, and have no intentions of doing so. Sorry if this has been mentioned/covered already. It seems in the OP that the swim is the part of crucible that is the PITA for new players. The maze is fun teamwork, the wheel puzzle gets people involved. But the swim is just a suicide mission for most new player characters.

A possible solution to this would be to have a skill option on the caster at the 6 trapped rooms door. Diplo, intim, blud
ff him and he will, with his dying breath, concede that you have bested him and deserve to join the clan. In doing so, he casts a spell which removes some of the spikes in the swim.

Iirc, he is the only npc that you can talk to that does nothing (at that point) in this quest. This will be an "easy button" but will help newer players learn the quest. Maybe even make it only available on normal. I personally like those quests where normal is slightly different than hard or elite.

[Nospheratus]

I'm quite surprised you didn't know that in general it's one of the most hated quests ever. :)

Most people tend to find Tomb of the Tormented extremely boring. You basically do the same thing three times, and the process can be quite painful unless you know how to deal with the caged mobs.

The Crucible on the other hand, is fun action most of the time.

Oh I am aware people dislike it, I guess I just like it! I refered the xp/min quest to make it sound more appealing :p

And I thought the most hated quest ever was Faithful Departed ;)

[Aurora1979]

I have not read every response to this thread, and have no intentions of doing so. Sorry if this has been mentioned/covered already. It seems in the OP that the swim is the part of crucible that is the PITA for new players. The maze is fun teamwork, the wheel puzzle gets people involved. But the swim is just a suicide mission for most new player characters.

A possible solution to this would be to have a skill option on the caster at the 6 trapped rooms door. Diplo, intim, blud
ff him and he will, with his dying breath, concede that you have bested him and deserve to join the clan. In doing so, he casts a spell which removes some of the spikes in the swim.

Iirc, he is the only npc that you can talk to that does nothing (at that point) in this quest. This will be an "easy button" but will help newer players learn the quest. Maybe even make it only available on normal. I personally like those quests where normal is slightly different than hard or elite.

The new player could just run it on casual, which is nothing like a suicide mission, learn the swim then try harder.

If the devs put in an alternate method people would just go via the path of least resistance, which would cut out a large chunk of what is a great, classic DDO quest.

[Thrudh]

In the case of The Crucible it is not so *simple* to "don't do it" - it is in a lacking spread of content. It is a required quest for one that is (barring the mechanism of simul-kill the giant/dragon if one is going for blooding) fairly Fun and doable by a very, very motly collection of folks... at many difficulties.

Yeah, but it is simple to do on casual. Just do it on casual once per life, and don't look back. Learn the maze from the wiki, anyone can do the swim on casual.

[Thrudh]

did you know that with enough Swim you can go against the current? :)

Yes, I actually built a character with decent swim skills once, and had swim +13 boots on. Merfolk's Blessing stacks with a swim item, right?

[Postumus]

So.. flush the stones.

But my doctor told me to try to catch those in that little sieve he gave me.

[Thrudh]

I will agree that the swim is hard. I personally can not complete it with out a death due to my lack of Mario Skills and poor Reflex Save.

I am chiming in on this as it is next on my BB list (to complete tonight).

Crucible is where I usually drop the Bravery Bonus. Elite is too unforgiving unless you have an expert in there. I usually only do it on hard.

It's not that big a deal to drop your BB to hard for a few quests.

[Battlehawke]

I typically run this quest around level 11 or 12 on elite. It is a great quest that actually requires some thought and the use of some tactics. Crowd control, body pulls and paralyzers are your friends. You can Google a map of the maze. That leaves only the swim as the last big hurdle. Here Improved Evasion or Evasion helps. Otherwise a good amount of HP with some cure serious pots are required. Knowing the nooks and crannies on the swim are helpful. This is a great quest and there should be many more in game that are like it.

[Postumus]

BTW i can just say that in my (limited) DDO experience beating the crucible norm alone (with a hireling) on my capped rogue for the first time no spoilers figuring it out on the way in 110 mins (and 1 reenter 'cause i screwed the puzzle and was locked in) was the thing that made me really almost scream "F**K YEAH" with a true sense of accomplishment at the end of the quest.

No kidding. It's one of those 'I hope to god I never have to run this quest again!' quests like Tomb of the Tormented that I now I have grown to enjoy. These do give you a sense of accomplishment - initially because of the difficulty, then later because everyone else dreads it. (Still can't say this about Coal Chamber).




The swim is just a matter of practice, the first time on normal i hit all the spikes and enjoyed all the "evade", the last time (6th time doing the quest) i hit the spikes one time getting to the horn and one time getting out.

I've only done the swim a few times myself, once on elite (at level) on my first life rogue (had to use a cake when I foolishly zerged the gnolls at the end), and most recently I did it on norm on my L13 arti after everyone else went DING! (thank you Bubble Belt). It's no longer intimidating to me except on a non-evasion character on elite.

[ButtersStotch]

When it came out and people didnt have the metagaming knowledge they do today, no one was soloing this quest. /snip

There are quests I dont necessarily like but still have to run one per toon. I dont necessarily mind it and would not demand a different mechanic to flag for end game simply because its not my favorite quest.

I tip my hat to those from a different era. They've endured a lot and they've accomplished even more. The times, though, they are a-changin'. I'm not demanding a different mechanic. I'm asking (nicely, I thought :c) for a different mechanic to be -considered.- While you don't mind suffering through the quests you despise, I -do- mind.

It's like saying that going to the dentist is my hobby -- I pay for it, I want (and enjoy) the end result, but I hate that whole middle part where he drills my face open. If I have the option to brush, floss, and mouthwash regularly to avoid having people chip at my teeth.. hell, I can do that. :P



There are also tons of players who don't think it fun if every quest boils down to swinging an axe / casting lightning bolt. So, to be fair to all their players the devs then need go over numerous other quests to include alternate routes for those players? Then someone doesn't like either option in one quest or another they again have to redo it? The reality of the matter is what's fun for one person may be less so for another.

I'm not talking about -every- quest in the game. I'm talking about -flagging- quests. Quests that you are -forced- to do in order to get to something else. The Vale of Twilight has many things other than 'swinging an axe / casting lightning bolt.' There is the possibility of autofail. A dungeon that is entirely dark. Protect the NPC. Mario jumps. etcetc.

I have a guildling who occasionally lags so horribly that, if he were to come into Coalescence Chamber with it completely devoid of enemies, he would -still- not be able to make it up those ramps at all.. or at least without considerable difficulty. If he had an option of doing X amount of -other- quests to take the place of that -one- quest.. he might enjoy the game more. And why should I hold that against him?

By all means, throw in more puzzles, more uses for Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate/Whatever, more air vent rides, and death-by-trap hallways. But maybe also throw in the -option- of whether you want to do -these- quests or -those- quests in order to flag.

[crimsonrazac]

Tbh the swim is a joke if you get someone to camp out on the valve that shuts off the flowing water right after the maze even on a non evasion toon

[Thrudh]

Tbh the swim is a joke if you get someone to camp out on the valve that shuts off the flowing water right after the maze even on a non evasion toon

I always wondered what that valve was for...

Learn something new every day!

[Impaqt]

Crucible was one of the most difficult quests I ever ran "First Time". Right up there with Invaders and Von3. 300+ Minute first time completion. Many Character swaps, people rage quitting, Multiple re-entries....

now its a 20 Minutes Speed run for Awesome XP.....

At one point, I could do the swim on elite on any character..... Not quite there at this point as its just a passing quest nowadays, but I'm sure I could still do it if I had to.

Its hard to tell someone to "Practice Practice Practice" since its not an end game quest anymore.... Back in the day, we had the advantage of a L14 Cap and Crucible was just another loot run by the time Vale came out. I remember ransacking that quest on Loot weekends for +2 Tomes... Good times....

Its one of the few quests that really encourages a balanced party make up... you cant just grab 6 folks and go do it if your not experienced. a Couple Evasive types are super handy. or, you just gotta do it a few times.

[sephiroth1084]

Been a while since I've been on a run where we used the valve, but I vaguely recall it turning the water off for a short while, and then the current rushes back on and you have a period where it can't be turned off again for a little while.

If you can coordinate with someone, you can swim, shut off the current, and get to a spot where you can hang out for a little bit waiting for it to reset. Then all you really have to worry about are the gnolls, timing on the fan, and being careful with your positioning.

Having a decent Str score and a Swim +10ish item with some buffs is also usually enough to do the swim without the valve being pulled, but it doesn't allow much room for error without Evasion (and ideally Improved Evasion and a super-high Reflex).

[QNecron]

Going to have to agree with the OP here.

As a new comer of sorts my friends and I came to the Crucible and were pleasantly surprised... at first. Everything was fine and dandy and could be recouped if you failed, except the swimming which is why after the one person with swim + high reflex + evasion failed we left and never looked back. It just wasn't worth it, and the time lost was a major let down.

Something needs to be done about the swim portion, the flushing of stones seems to be the best option that wont totally gimp what the Crucible is supposed to be.

Challenging is fun, but the point where you die without being able to reassess what you did wrong and try to correct it at the loss of re-entering or loosing everything that you've done is a major flaw in its design. No other quest we came across did this to us, so why is it OK for the Crucible?

[Enoach]

Crucible is one of my favorite Gianthold quests. I also love to teach it to people as I will run it at all difficulties while I'm at the appropriate level.

The Maze is a Team effort, requires at least one person to pull the levers. The fastest method I found was to take everyone to "I" first and get both crests. If any fit that side we will put them in. Next go to "K". Get last crest, then to "H" and slot crests. Before the horn is removed get everyone not pulling the horn to the end of the maze.

Next horn, evasion is good, but timing, speed and HP can be used as a substitute.

Next the Swim


Also, there is a valve in a side room underwater before the swim that has a valve that someone else can hit to make the swim easier for whoever is actually addressing the trial.

From Back on Page 3. People seem to miss this...

Where is this Valve... It is in a small alcove underwater at the Swim area everyone must cross before you get to the Trap room. This valve temporarily turns off the Fans that cause the current. Planting someone at this valve to hit it every time it elapses will keep the current shut down enough that anyone can make the swim on any difficulty.

When taking new people through I recommend that they get a chance to do the swim. Many have chosen to wait for the end of the quest and using the above mentioned valve I will talk them through.

Bottom line, Turbine the DM did make a way for less then stellar swimmers to succeed in this quest.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Don't like the Crucible? I'll take your runs, then. I love it!

[Kushiel]

Ok after reading through your threads multiple times this is what it appears, you like to run almost everyday your vip for aslong as you can remember, you want xp for the quests your doing and if the quest is challanging in a way that causes you to face quick painful death its is not fun for you. It is bothersome to have to run a quest that is challanging so you can get back to the easy quest like tor. You want an easy fix button such as hack and slash your way through to avoid doing any challanges. You are not confident in your mouse and or directional skills due to making a mistake ending your fun. You want xp for hacking and killing things but want to make sure you dont die in the process.

Basically he want easy button by pass of slightly challanging quests. New area are not fun for him due to the fact he might walk into a room and get obliterated. So he needs another set of cake walk quests. Ispired quarters may be his best bet but even there if he has no skill he will get owned there for not fun for him. He likes trial by fire i bet you can bash your way through that one. :)

But a Key (to me) piece you missed is the time-frame in which it can happen. I don't mind as much a type of quest where you step into a front-loaded challenge and either succeed to move on, or fail and start again. Hold For Reinforcements at-level Elite is terrific when Coyle dies to that very first wave of gargoyles while everyone is buffing and getting settled. Around 10 minutes later when he gets one shotted by a rust monster or zapped by a pk-hound, it is far less amusing.

It is a matter of after spending an annoying amount of time in a quest (or playing around in a zone) - to reach a place where what results is just a repair bill and not progressing along a story line, or seeing some XP roll in permitting character advancement.

You are also correct in a way... I do play and get the most enjoyment from killing critters, taking their stuff, and selling it for plat (and harvesting enough XP along the way to go up levels; over-and-over again). While there are puzzles in the game I *can* do, I don't particularly enjoy them. Thankfully some of them can be avoided (sacrificing a chest sometimes, or a pitance of optional XP) and others don't result in an immediate death... it is just a matter of patience and time (Sane Asylum center chest). Sane Asylum at least has a couple different ways of progressing through it... and it is a good thing to have optional means of reaching completion.

[Hellllboy]

Tbh the swim is a joke if you get someone to camp out on the valve that shuts off the flowing water right after the maze even on a non evasion toon

Thanks for the tip! I will try that tonight! :)

Me being the non-evasion loser that will be pulling the valve. ;)

[Shamurai]

For all those that "LOVE" this quest and find it "so, I easy I can run it on any of my toons on elite in 20 mins" annnd if you're on Thelanis.. please get my Barb GRRONND through it tonight.. tried 3 different groups yesterday.. 2 of which I was the ONLY non TR.. and failed on the swim all three times.

oh and forgive me now for being merely a piker.. I don't know the maze but am good at turning H, I and or K vavles.. I can't do the agility course... Im just dumb enough to assist with the book thing and /sit during the swim, but have uses in the end fight.

Thank you and have a great day!

[sephiroth1084]

Oh, and you do get stuff for running, but failing The Crucible! You can get somewhere around 2500 XP just for doing the dialogues in the beginning and then with one of the gatekeepers later on.

We have too few quests in the game that really require players to work hard at figuring out how to get through them and where failure is a a very real possibility.

[Thrudh]

When taking new people through I recommend that they get a chance to do the swim. Many have chosen to wait for the end of the quest.

I always tell people to do this too... After the quest is over, definitely worthwhile to try the swim for some practice.

[Thrudh]

For all those that "LOVE" this quest and find it "so, I easy I can run it on any of my toons on elite in 20 mins" annnd if you're on Thelanis.. please get my Barb GRRONND through it tonight.. tried 3 different groups yesterday.. 2 of which I was the ONLY non TR.. and failed on the swim all three times.

oh and forgive me now for being merely a piker.. I don't know the maze but am good at turning H, I and or K vavles.. I can't do the agility course... Im just dumb enough to assist with the book thing and /sit during the swim, but have uses in the end fight.

Thank you and have a great day!

What difficulty did your groups try it on?

[RedDragonScale]

Lol! Looks like one of the DDO Mods changed the name of the title of this thread!

[sephiroth1084]

I always tell people to do this too... After the quest is over, definitely worthwhile to try the swim for some practice.
Plus, you can get an extra chest.

[Torkzed]

Join date means nothing. All it means is that he purchased a copy of the game when it was sold in stores and tried it out then.
Neither does a join date of last week matter, because it could be someone playing on a second account, etc.
Join date means nothing at all.


While a join date of last week doesn't mean that one is new to the game, an old join date does in fact indicate a long association with the game. The player may not have played regularly without breaks, and can easily have less total in-game experience than one who joined later. I acknowledged as much in my post when I said he probably hasn't run the quest as much as some others (kind of goes hand in hand with not enjoying the quest). Nevertheless, someone who is posting today, with a join date in 2006, has almost certainly looked in on the game at least time to time, and would have probably been playing when the pack first came out. (In fact, it turns out the OP has played regularly, as he posted shortly after my post.)

However, it was you that decided that he hadn't been around as long as gianthold has been out (feel free to look back at your own post). My point was simply that you were wrong when you suggested that he just hadn't been around long enough to learn the quest---he has--he just doesn't like it.

[Shamurai]

What difficulty did your groups try it on?


Well the TR's I ran it with.. had like BB streaks of 70+ and like 90+ so they insisted to do it elite. As I was only piking basically I agreed... I can't use the "run it on casual" option. TO be honest each of my lvl 20's ran this quest once... pretty much piked... except my fighter/ rogue whom actually completed the swim on normal a looong time ago. So, TBH I don't really even know how to to the quest, but would love to finish flagging for TOR on me barb.

[Torkzed]

And comments like this one are the reason for my earlier comment.
If you had really been playing almost every day for six years (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4313634&postcount=21) as you claimed, then you would have surely run Litany/Abbot in that time. You would have surely run enough Crucibles that you would have had more than a single worthwhile experience there.

Once again, practice and knowledge. You need more of both. And forum dates mean nothing.



And once again, you assume that one who plays regularly will have played the same content that you play. Obviously, you are wrong. Its a big game, not everyone follows the same path.

[Robai]

Evasion , high reflex, nuff said

When I first time did that quest on my Ranger (evasion + reflex 42) I died in swimming part.
Some wizard took my stone and finished the job I was supposed to do (shame on me).

All I can say is that Evasion + Reflex is a bonus, but it doesn't matter that much as the right swimming there.

Later I've learned to swim there and I still don't like it!
Such part shouldn't be mandatory IMHO.

I do like The Pit quest though.

I also like to swim in time consuming and confusing parts of the game like Tomb of the Shadow Guard (http://ddowiki.com/page/Tomb_of_the_Shadow_Guard) quest. It was relaxing and fun to farm Fragrant Drowshood there.

But Crucible is not fun.
I don't mind very challenging swim. But it should be an optional thing or it could be in solo quests, where I could spend hours (and not wasting the time of others).

[sephiroth1084]

Well the TR's I ran it with.. had like BB streaks of 70+ and like 90+ so they insisted to do it elite. As I was only piking basically I agreed... I can't use the "run it on casual" option.
It's your responsibility to assess your own abilities and decide whether you should be joining groups for elite bravery runs, running things on hard bravery, normal, casual, or over-level.

Yes, Bravery has mucked a bit with players of different skill levels grouping together, but you can't complain about your experience in a quest if you don't make an effort to ensure you'll at least have a shot at a good time.

[Shamurai]

It's your responsibility to assess your own abilities and decide whether you should be joining groups for elite bravery runs, running things on hard bravery, normal, casual, or over-level.

Yes, Bravery has mucked a bit with players of different skill levels grouping together, but you can't complain about your experience in a quest if you don't make an effort to ensure you'll at least have a shot at a good time.

I understand what you're saying I had a GREAT time running 4-5 other GH quests with the group I tried to run Crucible on. I got to be involved and had fun... but then we tried Crucible.. sadly I NEED to do it for flagging... I could care less about the BB bonus, I just wanted the quest done.. Maybe tonight.

[Thrudh]

Well the TR's I ran it with.. had like BB streaks of 70+ and like 90+ so they insisted to do it elite. As I was only piking basically I agreed... I can't use the "run it on casual" option. TO be honest each of my lvl 20's ran this quest once... pretty much piked... except my fighter/ rogue whom actually completed the swim on normal a looong time ago. So, TBH I don't really even know how to to the quest, but would love to finish flagging for TOR on me barb.

Why can't you use the "run it on casual (or normal) option"? Put up an LFM for Crucible on normal and try it out. Check out ddowiki (or these forums) for tips on doing the maze...

The rest is pretty straightforward.

[Thrudh]

And once again, you assume that one who plays regularly will have played the same content that you play. Obviously, you are wrong. Its a big game, not everyone follows the same path.

Yeah, I've only run Abbot once... Just not that interested.

[tinyelvis]

People make too big of a deal out of the bravery bonus.

1. Bravery only applies to the base XP.
2. XP is XP whether you get it from an elite or casual quest. If you get half of the experience from running a quest on casual but can run it 3 times faster than normal hard or elite, then you should be running a quest on casual if high xp/min is your goal.
3. For the average player, the trouble with quests increases exponentially with difficulty, while the potential XP only mildly increases.

As for crucible. Learn to solo the quest, and prepare for the swim with items, spells, and potions. Learn to do the swim on any character. Then you wont be dependent on someone else to do this for you.

Once you learn the swim, this quest is a relatively easy one.

[Shamurai]

Why can't you use the "run it on casual (or normal) option"? Put up an LFM for Crucible on normal and try it out. Check out ddowiki (or these forums) for tips on doing the maze...

The rest is pretty straightforward.


Tis a good point.. perhaps I shall post that tonight.. I'd feel weird though posting and LFM for a quest I really don't know very well...

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The Crucible is not that hard really.

But new players should not be doing Elite!

or expecting to solo it.

Actually. If done by a full group of fist timers, I am sure it could be a nightmare.
But since it has been around so long, I don't think most groups are complete first timers.

There always seems to be someone who knows the quest, when I do it.

I hate the maze. I do not know it. But, it also does not seem so hard that I could not solo the maze...eventually.

The trap room, near the shrine can be deadly. But most of my toons with evasion have done it without too much trouble.
Elite is tough though. You can't take time to heal up while doing it. :(

The swim is difficult, but I think they actually lowered the damge of the spikes on elite.
Not positive, but I just did the swim on elite recently and I swear I use to get hit for a lot more damage.

You can drink pots underwater. So if you stay low, you can usually stop and help back up before continuing.

But being in there alone to get the horn is tough. The Gnolls cast some deadly spells very fast.

Anyway, we have Casual for flagging if you find it too difficult.
It is suppose to take a full group.

I find it a fun quest actually.

[Gremmlynn]

IN some of my groups yes we have multiple do the swim some times not, its up to who ever is in the group. Sorry you stand around thats on you. Think about what your saying you generally let who ever is best at it do it. So that means your just being lazy. You are seeming to believe these individual tasks if thats how you want to view them take hours to do. The point is the maze does not take hours and maybe after along day of what ever you rdoing its to much to remember where the crests or located or how to get to them. You dont want to stand around jump in the water simple. other then that each other test takes 45 second agility come on really complain about that one. Takes less then a minute and can be done by any toon. Wisdom book well low wis ftw if not trial an error. Also less then a minute. the swim oh no its so terrible three minutes maybe 4. Also can be done by anyone.

At a resteraunt and and in game if you dont like it run something else. So you miss reaver move on to necro 4. You dont like salad skip to the pasta. You may still miss out on the great and flavorful dressing though. So "IMO" your point is right on move onto a different area or only eat the parts of the plate you enjoy. If its covered with something you dont like dont eat it.In my experience, the maze does take hours. In my experiance, following the best person into the trap run or swim is a good rout to black lists as it just increases the risks.

I'm sorry, but to me a quest the takes learning it is not what I'm looking for and those are the one's that I tend to avoid due to poor first impressions. My personal taste is quests that can be figured out first time through, no guide, certainly no spoilers or studying. Quests like Haunted Library and Keepers Sanctuary are more my style as they were fun to figure out the first run with my, admittedly, at best average skillz.

As for the analogy, it's more a matter of if I don't like the salad I have to eat it anyway or I'm not allowed to eat the steak. Try opening a restaurant with that criteria and see how good a business plan it is. To me, having to endure Crucible in order to play the content I actually like from the adventure pack I bought doesn't encourage me to buy more. Now I can see the reason for flagging requirements, but like others think more options would improve the product.

[Chai]

I tip my hat to those from a different era. They've endured a lot and they've accomplished even more. The times, though, they are a-changin'. I'm not demanding a different mechanic. I'm asking (nicely, I thought :c) for a different mechanic to be -considered.- While you don't mind suffering through the quests you despise, I -do- mind.

It's like saying that going to the dentist is my hobby -- I pay for it, I want (and enjoy) the end result, but I hate that whole middle part where he drills my face open. If I have the option to brush, floss, and mouthwash regularly to avoid having people chip at my teeth.. hell, I can do that. :P

Preventitive maintenance is not congruent to plot line that requires players to pass a challenge before moving on.

Do you really hate the crucible that much where you absolutely despise running it once per life? Lets be realistic here. Suffering through...naaaaaa. More like tolerating, getting through it, so you can run TOR and Reavers. Or, skipping it and running it later - blowing through it to flag for the raid.

Its HUGE XP. It can be run fairly quickly when metagamed. There is still a huge plus side.

I see too many requests to modify the game due to personal opinion. It could be worse - most MMOs use a gate mechanism in one single long plotline rather than different plots that branch off. It could be "run crucible, or dont play the rest of the game" due to the rest of the plot not opening up.

[Chai]

In my experience, the maze does take hours. In my experiance, following the best person into the trap run or swim is a good rout to black lists as it just increases the risks.

I'm sorry, but to me a quest the takes learning it is not what I'm looking for and those are the one's that I tend to avoid due to poor first impressions. My personal taste is quests that can be figured out first time through, no guide, certainly no spoilers or studying. Quests like Haunted Library and Keepers Sanctuary are more my style as they were fun to figure out the first run with my, admittedly, at best average skillz.

As for the analogy, it's more a matter of if I don't like the salad I have to eat it anyway or I'm not allowed to eat the steak. Try opening a restaurant with that criteria and see how good a business plan it is. To me, having to endure Crucible in order to play the content I actually like from the adventure pack I bought doesn't encourage me to buy more. Now I can see the reason for flagging requirements, but like others think more options would improve the product.

D&D is a forced cooperation game. There are very few forced cooperation quests left that stay within the spirit of D&D. I dont support the easy buttoning of DDO to allow people to bypass stuff using easier mechanics because they dont enjoy specific formatting of quests. This is what people are asking for when they say "more options" in this case scenario. Bypass crucible and run some hilariously easy linear quest which takes no thought to figure out in place of it.

[jwdaniels]

This quest really isn't so bad, although I've only done it a handful of times - basically once on elite for the TRs I've leveled with bravery recently. Just have someone with evasion that can swim and don't kill the archers on top of the maze.

Most of the quests that are considered "impossible" in this game by many people (The Pit, Proof is in the Poison, Rainbow in the Dark, Let Sleeping Dust Lie, Inferno of the Damned, etc.) are generally just ones with a slightly different methodology than most that require more thought than just blasting through mob after mob swarming a hallway.

[sephiroth1084]

In my experience, the maze does take hours. In my experiance, following the best person into the trap run or swim is a good rout to black lists as it just increases the risks.

I'm sorry, but to me a quest the takes learning it is not what I'm looking for and those are the one's that I tend to avoid due to poor first impressions. My personal taste is quests that can be figured out first time through, no guide, certainly no spoilers or studying. Quests like Haunted Library and Keepers Sanctuary are more my style as they were fun to figure out the first run with my, admittedly, at best average skillz.

As for the analogy, it's more a matter of if I don't like the salad I have to eat it anyway or I'm not allowed to eat the steak. Try opening a restaurant with that criteria and see how good a business plan it is. To me, having to endure Crucible in order to play the content I actually like from the adventure pack I bought doesn't encourage me to buy more. Now I can see the reason for flagging requirements, but like others think more options would improve the product.
There's scores of other quests that fit your criteria. You can choose to not run Crucible, Tor or Reaver (and Reaver really doesn't fit your criteria as first-time, no spoilers, solvable).

If you desperately want to get to Tor and Reaver, though, run Crucible once through on casual with some people that know the quest, and don't look at it again until you're on another life or character. Yeah, it's a flagging quest for semi-popular, and fun (Tor) content, but the game really doesn't need to cater to the lowest common denominator at every **** turn. Sometimes struggling a bit is okay.

[Delt]

I like the crucible alot (I was pretty choked when they nerfed the XP) -- I also think Hard/Elite traps are a tad unforgiving at level, but it's one of the few quests that gives people a reason to grab an evasion toon.

One thing I would like to see is if you die in the water, it spits your stone out past the gate. I don't think anyone would really disagree that could be a good change and make the experience a little less frustrating for new players, without dumbing it down.

[ButtersStotch]

Preventitive maintenance is not congruent to plot line that requires players to pass a challenge before moving on.

Do you really hate the crucible that much where you absolutely despise running it once per life? Lets be realistic here. Suffering through...naaaaaa. More like tolerating, getting through it, so you can run TOR and Reavers. Or, skipping it and running it later - blowing through it to flag for the raid.

Its HUGE XP. It can be run fairly quickly when metagamed. There is still a huge plus side.

I see too many requests to modify the game due to personal opinion. It could be worse - most MMOs use a gate mechanism in one single long plotline rather than different plots that branch off. It could be "run crucible, or dont play the rest of the game" due to the rest of the plot not opening up.


Yes, I do hate the Crucible that much. So much so that, since I've retired from raiding or grouping with anyone other than my boyfriend, I haven't even bothered to flag any of my newer characters for Tor. If I want to enjoy that quest, I do so on characters that have already been flagged. The massive amount of experience that can be acquired from the Crucible is of no matter to me -- there are -plenty- of other sources of XP.

And while you disagree that new avenues should be explored (personal opinion), I will stand by my own opinion that perhaps things wouldn't be so bad if there -were- new avenues. As for the 'it could be worse' bit, that also is of no consequence to me. It -isn't- 'run Crucible, or don't play the rest of the game.' I highly doubt it will -ever- be 'run Crucible, or don't play the rest of the game,' so that point doesn't really apply here. I shouldn't have to keep my mouth shut about the things I don't like just because 'it could be worse' in a different MMO.



D&D is a forced cooperation game. There are very few forced cooperation quests left that stay within the spirit of D&D. I dont support the easy buttoning of DDO to allow people to bypass stuff using easier mechanics because they dont enjoy specific formatting of quests. This is what people are asking for when they say "more options" in this case scenario. Bypass crucible and run some hilariously easy linear quest which takes no thought to figure out in place of it.

If the Crucible is, for me, rather easy to do.. I'm not sure how asking for more options is the equivalent of asking for an 'easy button.' I don't find the quest, with its non-linear set up, to be incredibly difficult.. just very unpleasant. I am -more than capable- of completing it -- as are dozens of gimps, pikers, and people with poor playstyles. I'd imagine stepping into an already nearly completed quest (or being carried by teammates) simply to get a flag is much closer to 'hilariously easy' than, say, substituting -one- 'difficult' quest for -several- 'difficult' quests.

[tinyelvis]

The crucible is a good design for a couple of reasons.

1. It can be easier to run with a well made party.
2. It can still be run (albeit not always as easy) with any party makeup.

This in my opinion is how quests should be setup (for an example of how not to setup a quest see VON 5). Sure go ahead and put a quest stopping trap in a quest. But give the rest of us non evasion, non trap disabling, non 1k hp folks a way to get through or around it. If that means jumping onto the head of a pin six times in a row, or swimming through windy spike laden tunnel with a strong current then so be it.

[eonfreon]

D&D is a forced cooperation game. There are very few forced cooperation quests left that stay within the spirit of D&D. I dont support the easy buttoning of DDO to allow people to bypass stuff using easier mechanics because they dont enjoy specific formatting of quests. This is what people are asking for when they say "more options" in this case scenario. Bypass crucible and run some hilariously easy linear quest which takes no thought to figure out in place of it.

I like the Crucible. My main Evasion Paladin is pretty much built to easy button quests like that. And what Evasion and high saves can't deal with, my twitch skills and spacial abilities allow me to heal through and avoid extra damage on top of the unavoidable dice failures or hit box miscalcs on my part/computer relay or simple screw up.

Every quest is linear in aspect. Some allow more branching out then others, but generally few have different endings. The part in the middle is as linear as the players and developers want it to be.

I like most puzzles and hate others. I like twitch skills, but get frustrated trying to help people move in say Dreaming Dark or something. Eventually everyone gets it, but not everyone likes it.

I like quests that offer alternatives. Whether it be through skills like Diplo and Intimidate. Or getting an object through other quests that can be used to bypass an obstacle. Think like the Djinni in Wiz King that you can avoid fighting if you pick up an item in another quest. That way a player can farm a quest they might like better to avoid a part of a quest they don't like. The bonus as well is that if a player is in the same group that likes to do that part of the quest, the player with the item to bypass it can save that item instead, saving it for a time when nobody is around that can do that part.

That would be a simpler way to accomodate people who want an easier time through a disliked aspect.

Perhaps the acquiring of the item to bypass could be made tough in itself. But in another way.

Just a thought. Because "forced cooperation" wasn't D&D that I played. It was simply cooperation. Part of that cooperation came from the DM. Whether there was a DM and 1 or 6 other players, the DM was responsible for making a basically tailormade game. The Devs don't have the luxury of that kind of hand to hand gameplay.

I liked everything in GH when it first came out. The Crucible I eventually got used to. And it helped that others figured out the maze for me. I mostly did the Evasion bits and swimming. Depended on what class I played of course.

Although I like it now with how it's built, I wouldn't mind more options being incorporated, if it isn't too much developer time. It's been awhile since I played at that level, but I do remember that Crucible even had Diplo and Intimidate options in the beginning. Perhaps those could be expanded upon.

I think some old quests can be tweaked. But I wouldn't want it to be a priority. I just hope future content will look from some quests in the past that just didn't work out too well and not make those same mistakes again. Examples like some Necro Quests, specifically the Rat Maze I never had any kind of fun in. Done for Favor and left alone.

The Devs can't please everyone. But if they are going to make some quests required, offering alternative ways would help break that too linear aspect of quest design and hopefully allow many more people to have fun the majority of the time.

Even with an alternative method available to the OP, there may come a time when he has to do the quest the dreaded "original intended way", either because he can't acquire the item or doesn't have the time to aquire the item to bypass the mechanic he dislikes.
He may be lucky and be in a group where someone knows exactly how to do it blindfolded and he can do his role of follow and kill or whatever.
Or he may face the disliked maze and swim singlehandedly because everyone else is dead (worst case) and make it by the skin of his teeth.

But with some alternative available he can avoid it. Whether it would be more fun would be up to him. Can't please everyone, all the time.

[Gawna]

I am totally maze deficient, but regardless, I love Crucible. Gianthold quests are my favorite in the entire game. When I am running up a character, like a rogue, that gets its time to shine in a quest, it's awesome! Getting to do something other than run and smash is what makes it fun and different! I would be so sad if they easy buttoned by adding in a side optional fight to get to that last horn.

[Cyr]

The swim is indeed a dumb mechanic. It has lots of the hallmarks of poor design from exceptionally different challenge from the rest of the quest and other content of similar level, solo challenge in a group dungeon that others must wait on you for, strong favoring of certain builds, and a huge reliance on meta-gaming.

The swim really does stand out as a low point in a pack that really does shine as being one of the best releases in DDO's history. The solo thing really was an ongoing design issue at that point in the game's history...one that the developers have been less prone to repeating more recently.

[Memnir]

Maybe it's just me - but I don't find "I don't like the quest, so I'd like an alternative," to be a compelling argument for change. Even if it's a required quest for a raid.

See, I've never liked VoN 4, Haywire's little shindig. I find the enemies annoying, the design obnoxious, the wheel puzzle a pain, and the self-destruct aspect at the end to be ludicrous. But, I run it so I can do the raid. My dislike for the quest is outweighed by the appeal of the further content. I don't want there to be an alternate route to bypass VoN 3 - or any raid flagging quests. My dislike does not preclude other people's enjoyment of VoN 3... or any quest. If I hate a quest enough, I don't run it - rewards be damned. Yeah, I might miss out on some gear as a result, but if I hate it that much - I don't care because I hate the quest(s) involved to such a degree that not running them is preferable.

But, I personally don't wish or want changes made to circumvent those quests I dislike enough to avoid because it's my choice not to run them in the manner in which they were made. End of story.


Tweaking quests to make them more palatable is one thing... ways to outright avoid the quest and still progress in flagging is quite another.

[jwdaniels]

The swim is indeed a dumb mechanic. It has lots of the hallmarks of poor design from exceptionally different challenge from the rest of the quest and other content of similar level, solo challenge in a group dungeon that others must wait on you for, strong favoring of certain builds, and a huge reliance on meta-gaming.

The swim really does stand out as a low point in a pack that really does shine as being one of the best releases in DDO's history. The solo thing really was an ongoing design issue at that point in the game's history...one that the developers have been less prone to repeating more recently.

There's nothing that prevents the entire group from attempting the swim - there's even a chest in there. Sure, that's not how most people do it, but there's nothing saying you can't have all 6 people go for the horn.

[Cyr]

There's nothing that prevents the entire group from attempting the swim - there's even a chest in there. Sure, that's not how most people do it, but there's nothing saying you can't have all 6 people go for the horn.

There is a reason why most people do not do it that way. Having people die for no reason, use extra resources, and/or taking extra time to do something is not generally a good idea.

[Chai]

That would be a simpler way to accomodate people who want an easier time through a disliked aspect.

Perhaps the acquiring of the item to bypass could be made tough in itself. But in another way.

Just a thought. Because "forced cooperation" wasn't D&D that I played. It was simply cooperation. Part of that cooperation came from the DM. Whether there was a DM and 1 or 6 other players, the DM was responsible for making a basically tailormade game. The Devs don't have the luxury of that kind of hand to hand gameplay.



I dont support making the game easier simply due to opinion. Theres already casual mode where you have to try actively to fail, combined with dungeon scaling.

No need to bypass. Its a flagging mechanic based on a specific plot.

Forced cooperation is the entire principle the D&D game is based on. There was an entire chapter in the DMG about when its ok to kill a character or the entire party. It basically highlighted scenarios where the party is not cooperating and stated that it would be perfectly suitable to wipe the party. There are too few quests in the game that live up to this principle, and now people are requesting to not have to run the rest of them.

Tailor made game? Nay. Forced cooperation game. The players realize that they are going to HAVE TO work together to survive, despite whatever IC or OOC disagreements they may have.

Too many requests on the forums nowdays to easy button the game based on opinion of not wanting to be bothered to run even semi challenging content. Too many requests to equate time spent to amount of good gear, bypassing all challenging aspects.

[Chai]

There is a reason why most people do not do it that way. Having people die for no reason, use extra resources, and/or taking extra time to do something is not generally a good idea.

Taking extra time to learn the content is a GREAT idea. Too many people have the "cant be bothered" attitude, but still feel entitled to have the same gear as those who step up to the challenges.

jwdaniels for president '12. :p

[jwdaniels]

There is a reason why most people do not do it that way. Having people die for no reason, use extra resources, and/or taking extra time to do something is not generally a good idea.

My point being that it's not a solo challenge, nor was it necessarily ever intended to be. If you have a party of 6 characters with evasion there's no reason why they can't all go through. Hell, on normal (or casual) there's no reason why a character without evasion can't go through.

[Cyr]

Taking extra time to learn the content is a GREAT idea. Too many people have the "cant be bothered" attitude, but still feel entitled to have the same gear as those who step up to the challenges.

jwdaniels for president '12. :p

Yes and it's a wonderful idea after the quest is over when you don't have others waiting on you or having to go back in for your stone.

[Tyrande]

IMHO, this is one of those quests where the party buffed the high evasion rogue, ranger or monk with blur, haste, rage, elemental resists, protections, merfolk's blessing and pike and hope the rogue or monk has a cloak of night of some sort and some invisibility clickies/potions and cure potions.

It is similar to the Stormreach Blockade quest but less boom and less dramatic.

[sephiroth1084]

My point being that it's not a solo challenge, nor was it necessarily ever intended to be. If you have a party of 6 characters with evasion there's no reason why they can't all go through. Hell, on normal (or casual) there's no reason why a character without evasion can't go through.
There's also really no reason to go through. It's greater risk whose only reward is avoiding boredom for 2-10 minutes.

[Cyr]

My point being that it's not a solo challenge, nor was it necessarily ever intended to be. If you have a party of 6 characters with evasion there's no reason why they can't all go through. Hell, on normal (or casual) there's no reason why a character without evasion can't go through.

Sure and you can have everyone trying to fire the laser in the titan and knocking down pillars too, but the design clearly favors doing something else instead of that.

If doing something takes longer then the design does not favor that behavior.

[Gremmlynn]

D&D is a forced cooperation game. There are very few forced cooperation quests left that stay within the spirit of D&D. I dont support the easy buttoning of DDO to allow people to bypass stuff using easier mechanics because they dont enjoy specific formatting of quests. This is what people are asking for when they say "more options" in this case scenario. Bypass crucible and run some hilariously easy linear quest which takes no thought to figure out in place of it.D&D works as a, generally forced (but not always in my experience), cooperative game due to it being based around static groups for the most part. This works as selling books is where they get their profit, not running the game themselves. DDO is an MMO where the economics are completely different than a P&P game. building the game around a static/balanced group template just leaves it with customers outside of that niche dissatisfied. Making more options for more types of players, while leaving those balanced group challenges in for those who find them enjoyable would seem to be the best way to please the most customers.

Let's just say, IMO, being forced to tolerate quests in order to move on to other quests is a bad mechanic, regardless of how much worse it is in other games. While I see flagging as a necessary evil due to the reward system the devs chose to put in the game (probably another necessary evil due to customer demographics), I would think the game would be better if the flagging mechanics offered options that made them more appealing to individual players. But then I don't care what route anyone takes to get enjoyment out of the game or how "good" they are at it or how I compare to them.

[Chai]

Yes and it's a wonderful idea after the quest is over when you don't have others waiting on you or having to go back in for your stone.

No, its a wonderful idea for all players in the quest to learn all of the content. If they cant be bothered to learn the content, they cant expect to continue on in the plot and obtain gear.

Cant be bothered = not entitled.

[ButtersStotch]

Maybe it's just me - but I don't find "I don't like the quest, so I'd like an alternative," to be a compelling argument for change. Even if it's a required quest for a raid.

See, I've never liked VoN 4, Haywire's little shindig. I find the enemies annoying, the design obnoxious, the wheel puzzle a pain, and the self-destruct aspect at the end to be ludicrous. But, I run it so I can do the raid. My dislike for the quest is outweighed by the appeal of the further content. I don't want there to be an alternate route to bypass VoN 3 - or any raid flagging quests. My dislike does not preclude other people's enjoyment of VoN 3... or any quest. If I hate a quest enough, I don't run it - rewards be damned. Yeah, I might miss out on some gear as a result, but if I hate it that much - I don't care because I hate the quest(s) involved to such a degree that not running them is preferable.

But, I personally don't wish or want changes made to circumvent those quests I dislike enough to avoid because it's my choice not to run them in the manner in which they were made. End of story.


Tweaking quests to make them more palatable is one thing... ways to outright avoid the quest and still progress in flagging is quite another.

I didn't expect anyone to agree with me. And I certainly don't expect any changes to be made. It would be -nice.- For me and, possibly, for other players of a similar mindset. I don't mind that I'm missing out on raid gear either -- I simply don't care for playing with other people, especially -eleven- other people. I don't like my own success or failure to depend so heavily on -them.-

And while I don't care to do Reaver's anymore, I do still enjoy Tor. While I've never done Abbot, I do -love- Litany. The quests in the Orchard aren't particularly fun for me, but I force myself through (some of) them in order to get to what I do enjoy. As far as Tor is concerned? My characters that are currently flagged.. are likely to be the only ones flagged (unless I'm so desperate for favor that I grit my teeth and slither -- with ease, mind you -- through the Crucible). And so, to be fair, I am doing exactly as you've expressed. But when I'm paying to play a -game,- I just.. want more, I guess. I want to -enjoy- _all_ of what I am doing. Otherwise, what is the point?


I must say, though, that I don't quite understand -why- the idea of having alternate options is so vehemently opposed. It isn't an easy button, especially if the alternate quests are considerably 'difficult' as well. Anyone can flag via the Crucible with 'the right group.' It doesn't kill the story, especially if you're just adding fitting lines of dialogue to provide those options. Isn't that the point of roleplay?

And, in another personal opinion, it isn't likely that the quest will be 'tweaked' in any way that will please -any- player, as we've noted from the multiple changes to the Shroud and the Challenges and whatever else people have grumbled about recently.

[KraahgDaAxe]

But a Key (to me) piece you missed is the time-frame in which it can happen. I don't mind as much a type of quest where you step into a front-loaded challenge and either succeed to move on, or fail and start again. Hold For Reinforcements at-level Elite is terrific when Coyle dies to that very first wave of gargoyles while everyone is buffing and getting settled. Around 10 minutes later when he gets one shotted by a rust monster or zapped by a pk-hound, it is far less amusing.

It is a matter of after spending an annoying amount of time in a quest (or playing around in a zone) - to reach a place where what results is just a repair bill and not progressing along a story line, or seeing some XP roll in permitting character advancement.

You are also correct in a way... I do play and get the most enjoyment from killing critters, taking their stuff, and selling it for plat (and harvesting enough XP along the way to go up levels; over-and-over again). While there are puzzles in the game I *can* do, I don't particularly enjoy them. Thankfully some of them can be avoided (sacrificing a chest sometimes, or a pitance of optional XP) and others don't result in an immediate death... it is just a matter of patience and time (Sane Asylum center chest). Sane Asylum at least has a couple different ways of progressing through it... and it is a good thing to have optional means of reaching completion.

I don't know. To me it sounds like you are playing the wrong game, or playing the game in the wrong way. Either way, I feel you are bound to be disappointed.

Kraahg

[Tyrande]

Sure and you can have everyone trying [...]

If doing something takes longer then the design does not favor that behavior.

Guess the rest of the party can light a camp fire, play poker... or sing, "kumbaya..." or tell a good joke while the swimmer do it on elite.

[Cyr]

No, its a wonderful idea for all players in the quest to learn all of the content. If they cant be bothered to learn the content, they cant expect to continue on in the plot and obtain gear.

Cant be bothered = not entitled.

Yeah, because I totally said no one should learn content :rolleyes:

[Cyr]

Guess the rest of the party can light a camp fire, play poker... or sing, "kumbaya..." or tell a good joke while the swimmer do it on elite.

Yup, which is why it is bad design. It encourages people to basically go afk while someone else does it.

[ButtersStotch]

No, its a wonderful idea for all players in the quest to learn all of the content. If they cant be bothered to learn the content, they cant expect to continue on in the plot and obtain gear.

Cant be bothered = not entitled.

I apologize for harping on you so much. Haha. Really, I do, and I hope you don't take it personally.

But this sentiment is part of what makes me feel so strongly about providing options. There are people in this thread who, by their own admission, have -never- done the swim. Have never been -asked- to do the swim. Have never been -interested- in doing the swim. Or the maze. Or the agility course.

But they've still gotten flagged for Reaver's, haven't they? They've still continued on in the plot (they may have not even been bothered to read) and, presumably, obtained raid gear. How are they more entitled to progression than I am? Because they 'could be bothered' to step into the quest? I'm willing to -work for- my progression. I just want to work for it through a different route. :(

[Chai]

D&D works as a, generally forced (but not always in my experience), cooperative game due to it being based around static groups for the most part. This works as selling books is where they get their profit, not running the game themselves. DDO is an MMO where the economics are completely different than a P&P game. building the game around a static/balanced group template just leaves it with customers outside of that niche dissatisfied. Making more options for more types of players, while leaving those balanced group challenges in for those who find them enjoyable would seem to be the best way to please the most customers.

Let's just say, IMO, being forced to tolerate quests in order to move on to other quests is a bad mechanic, regardless of how much worse it is in other games. While I see flagging as a necessary evil due to the reward system the devs chose to put in the game (probably another necessary evil due to customer demographics), I would think the game would be better if the flagging mechanics offered options that made them more appealing to individual players. But then I don't care what route anyone takes to get enjoyment out of the game or how "good" they are at it or how I compare to them.

The economics of DDO are similar to other MMOs. Every other MMO has survived on flagging mechanics. Most MMOs push this issue much further than DDO and use an absolute gate mechanic.

People are not "forced" to run the quests. If they choose not to do so however, they do so with the understanding that they are not entitled to run the content in the plot after that quest or obtain the gear dropped in that content.

Its better to enjoy playing the entire game, rather than seeing 98% of it as something to blaze through just to get back to the 2% of it some players fell are the only parts that matter.

Instead, I see alot of folks turn it into work and only see flagging as a necessary evil that should be taken care of as quickly as possible in order to get back to the point where they can mindlessly farm for gear, then complain that normal difficulty is too tough and should be tuned down so they can take the first 11 and succeed 100% of the time. Now they want the flagging adjusted so it doesnt force them to run quests they cant learn in a single day, and at the same time feel entitled to all the same gear everyone who steps up to the challenges has, so they also ask for gear drops to be mandatory simply due to punching a clock and running one quest on the easiest possible difficulty (which they supported being easy buttoned even further) once every three days 20 times in a row. See where this is going? :p

Cant be bothered? = Not entitled.

[2x4]

Really? Probably more than 80% of the people in this thread like the quest, many consider it one of their most favourite quests. And it just "should go away" because of few people who don't like it? This is why we can't have nice things...

Infant

Infant: Yes it was over the top for me to ask it to go away. And of course it should not. Thanks for reminding me of that.

However, to the point being made by the OP I think all those who come in and say they luv it or offer advice on how to succeed on the swim is very helpfull and good information but certainly is not dealing with the OP's point.

What I read from the OP is the time sink with zero options built into a quest that must be completed for a flag.

We can all agree that it's the best or worst designed quest in the game but I believe that is irrelevant to his point.

The more I think about it, the more I think his point is correct. What other flagging quest has this mechanic? And with the huge time in quest prior to reaching this stage? I can't think of one.

So no matter how much advice we offer as a community to succeed in the swim or how much people post that they love it, it doesn't help him with his point does it.

For me personally, I could do with out the Crucible (And yes I get it, I get the design and how well it's designed. This does not = auto love it).

Memnir mentioned what he dislikes about the Von flagging quests. I'm the opposite actually. I love all the flagging quest but hate the VON raid and have only done the raid once or twice. So go figure.

Could some of you post examples of flagging quests that has the swim mechanic in the same fashion??

[Caliban]

When it came out and people didnt have the metagaming knowledge they do today, no one was soloing this quest. It was designed in an era where this game was all about grouping and forced cooperation. Yes, players who have run it quite a few times over the years have the metagaming knowledge needed to solo it quite easily. complete with dungeon scaling and hirelings to assist.


"Back in the Day" when the quest first came out and the level cap was 14, I was duoing it - and I only needed the other person to pull a lever in the maze for me. (No hirelings back then.)

Of course, back then a caster could solo the final fight simply by dropping firewalls on the bosses just before they activated to get their aggro, using DDoor, then coming back and firewalling them through the gate. (They fixed the "firewall through the gate" thing.)

[Gremmlynn]

There's scores of other quests that fit your criteria. You can choose to not run Crucible, Tor or Reaver (and Reaver really doesn't fit your criteria as first-time, no spoilers, solvable).

If you desperately want to get to Tor and Reaver, though, run Crucible once through on casual with some people that know the quest, and don't look at it again until you're on another life or character. Yeah, it's a flagging quest for semi-popular, and fun (Tor) content, but the game really doesn't need to cater to the lowest common denominator at every **** turn. Sometimes struggling a bit is okay.The game doesn't need to do anything, including succeed as a money making venture, or even exist. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be better if it allows it's customers as much freedom to get the most out of it as they can. I really don't see how allowing more options makes the game worse as long as it leaves the others for those who find them more to their liking. I know I can just skip the quest and live without getting to run Tor. That doesn't make the game better. I also know I can, and do, endure Crucible now, with the players I run with thank you. That doesn't make the game better either.

I really don't see where the opposition to more options comes from. Nobody's saying there is anything wrong with liking Crucible, just that it's not everyone's idea of fun. We play the game for fun after all.

[Infant]

However, to the point being made by the OP I think all those who come in and say they luv it or offer advice on how to succeed on the swim is very helpfull and good information but certainly is not dealing with the OP's point.

What I read from the OP is the time sink with zero options built into a quest that must be completed for a flag.

We can all agree that it's the best or worst designed quest in the game but I believe that is irrelevant to his point.

The more I think about it, the more I think his point is correct. What other flagging quest has this mechanic? And with the huge time in quest prior to reaching this stage? I can't think of one.

So no matter how much advice we offer as a community to succeed in the swim or how much people post that they love it, it doesn't help him with his point does it.

For me personally, I could do with out the Crucible (And yes I get it, I get the design and how well it's designed. This does not = auto love it).

Memnir mentioned what he dislikes about the Von flagging quests. I'm the opposite actually. I love all the flagging quest but hate the VON raid and have only done the raid once or twice. So go figure.

Could some of you post examples of flagging quests that has the swim mechanic in the same fashion??

If it's only about flagging, one can flag on casual with a hire.

If it's about flagging quests being difficult, then there are other difficult flagging quests (or at least some that require learning and research).

The swim is brutal, I have wiped there several times while trying to figure it out. However, I think Crucible is a great quest.

Infant

[eonfreon]

I dont support making the game easier simply due to opinion. Theres already casual mode where you have to try actively to fail, combined with dungeon scaling.

No need to bypass. Its a flagging mechanic based on a specific plot.

Forced cooperation is the entire principle the D&D game is based on. There was an entire chapter in the DMG about when its ok to kill a character or the entire party. It basically highlighted scenarios where the party is not cooperating and stated that it would be perfectly suitable to wipe the party. There are too few quests in the game that live up to this principle, and now people are requesting to not have to run the rest of them.

Tailor made game? Nay. Forced cooperation game. The players realize that they are going to HAVE TO work together to survive, despite whatever IC or OOC disagreements they may have.

Too many requests on the forums nowdays to easy button the game based on opinion of not wanting to be bothered to run even semi challenging content. Too many requests to equate time spent to amount of good gear, bypassing all challenging aspects.

Okay you're against this request. That's fine. But don't tell me what the "entire principle of the D&D game is based on". I don't care about which version you're quoting or which chapter. My AD&D books talked about everything from disruptive behaviors and how to encourage a game of wits, strategy, and puzzle solving AND how to appeal to more rolling dice and chance driven chararacters, who of course also used game mechanics to weigh things in their favor.

A dungeon was made to be dissected at will by the DM and players. Not forced to follow a specific route. There were alternative "boxes" even if you will.

The concept of "kill the party" had to do with total disregard for the fun of the adventure. The adventure itself was to provide rules to allow things to happen at an appropriate rate. Success and failure relied as much on interaction of DM and player as with dice rolls.

As I've said, the game already provides all sorts of alternatives to linear quest and quest progressions. I don't see this as a bad thing or trend or what have you. It allows replay of quests because a player can use an item to avoid a mechanic that another player can just deal with at no problem.

Basically just because you and I want to do the swim doesn't guarantee that any group of 6 will find someone who does. Yes, odds are on the side of finding groups that can have one character who wants to do it. I realize that you want to reduce soloing quests as well. I agree that Casual does indeed do a good job of "training" people while they try to get into more experienced parties, but I don't agree that other alternatives can't be implemented.

Easy button is the least of the game's problems. And it has nothing to do with the OP's request. I ersonally don't care if anything is ever changed to Crucible because I've already learned it and beat it. Several times. I like it.

But if someone were to suggest changes to the stupid Rat Trap quest in Necro I would likely be on board. It was also a stupid mechanic. For all I know it may have been fixed. I don't know, because I haven't stepped in. Luckily I did it for Favor and forgot about it, luckily it didn't affect any other part of the quest chains for me. It's a shame some quests reach this point of limbo to some players.

I believe all it would take is some small change to alleviate this. Then people like the OP can actually run the quest, even halfway the way it was "intended", rather than avoid it like the plague.

In an online game that wants to attract people to run and puchase content, making that content even more robust with options is not a bad thing.

Whatever your version of the DMG says, forced cooperation is not the basic principle of D&D. Cooperation and role play which included roll play of dice as "deciders" was. That was the basic principle. Yes, you killed a party that did everything wrong or just didn't want to play together really. But you did not force them to bang their heads against an obstacle.

"Role" playing is very limited in a video game environment, but that was the principle of D&D. Whenever "forced cooperation" entered the game I don't know, but I certainly won't take your word for it being a "principle" of D&D. At best I could see a tournament game or such getting that label. And that was not a very important aspect to most people who played D&D. At least to me it had no bearing.

[Chai]

I apologize for harping on you so much. Haha. Really, I do, and I hope you don't take it personally.

But this sentiment is part of what makes me feel so strongly about providing options. There are people in this thread who, by their own admission, have -never- done the swim. Have never been -asked- to do the swim. Have never been -interested- in doing the swim. Or the maze. Or the agility course.

But they've still gotten flagged for Reaver's, haven't they? They've still continued on in the plot (they may have not even been bothered to read) and, presumably, obtained raid gear. How are they more entitled to progression than I am? Because they 'could be bothered' to step into the quest? I'm willing to -work for- my progression. I just want to work for it through a different route. :(

Maybe they dont build evasion toons and each time they run someone else is more qualified to do that part of the quest. At least they run the quest however.

And yes I am completely aware that people can be carried through content and pike a flag so to speak, but any other option would not prevent this.

[Missing_Minds]

Yeah, because I totally said no one should learn content :rolleyes:

While I'm fully teasing, it is just so darn tempting to just turn that part alone into a sig. :)

[Postumus]

I have a guildling who occasionally lags so horribly that, if he were to come into Coalescence Chamber with it completely devoid of enemies, he would -still- not be able to make it up those ramps at all.. or at least without considerable difficulty. If he had an option of doing X amount of -other- quests to take the place of that -one- quest.. he might enjoy the game more. And why should I hold that against him?


I really hope that you aren't arguing that quests should be reduced in difficulty/complexity b/c some players have crappy PCs/internet connections. That's what your statement sounds like to me.



By all means, throw in more puzzles, more uses for Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate/Whatever, more air vent rides, and death-by-trap hallways.

YES!



But maybe also throw in the -option- of whether you want to do -these- quests or -those- quests in order to flag.


Have you ever been in a PnP campaign and said to the DM "hey this part of the module's too hard, can we just skip it and go to the end?" Have you ever had a video game you enjoyed where you could just skip the hard levels to get to the rewards of the fun levels?


Some people just hate certain quests - for whatever reason. You can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time. Flag or do not flag, there is enough content that one can skip entire chains and packs altogether and still have a wonderful gaming experience.

[ButtersStotch]

/snip

The more I think about it, the more I think his point is correct. What other flagging quest has this mechanic? And with the huge time in quest prior to reaching this stage? I can't think of one.

/snip

Could some of you post examples of flagging quests that has the swim mechanic in the same fashion??

Swim mechanic, no. Huge time sink before failure, yes.

I once grouped with a Ranger who summoned his lion friend in the middle of the final fight in Let Sleeping Dust Lie. Lol. "Oh, I forgot. Well.. don't worry. It should die soon." And there went all the spiders, miraculously. Where that stupid lion would have otherwise died almost immediately, it lived long enough to brutally murder my poor spiders.

This quest can be particularly bad if you take in griefers. I'm not sure what pleasure people derive from spending a good amount of time with people.. just to screw them over. But, apparently, different people play the game for different things. I don't want Let Sleeping Dust Lie to be changed. I would like options for flagging in a different way, though. :P

[Missing_Minds]

Of course, back then a caster could solo the final fight simply by dropping firewalls on the bosses just before they activated to get their aggro, using DDoor, then coming back and firewalling them through the gate. (They fixed the "firewall through the gate" thing.)

At which point you just loaded up Walls of Fire at the gate before DDing. Agro got so established any way, that the remainders get picked off by the rest of the party.

[jwdaniels]

Could some of you post examples of flagging quests that has the swim mechanic in the same fashion??

It's not the swim mechanic, but here are some raid flagging quests with mechanics that differ from the norm:

1. Let Sleeping Dust Lie - have to avoid killing agressive mobs that are grouped with other mobs

2. Rainbow in the Dark - the quest is dark except for a small area around someone carrying the scepter (one of my favorite quests in the game, incidentally)

3. Inferno of the Damned - you have to bounce back and forth between reality and hell in order to make it through the quest

4. Ghosts of Perdition - two named opponents that must be killed at the same time in order to advance

5. Monastery of the Scorpion - a (virtually) invincible opponent that must be distracted in order to solve a puzzle

6. Prey on the Hunter - a timed maze that must be solved quickly enough to enter a fight and rescue a dragon from a group of giants

7. Litany of the Dead - four bosses, each has to be killed once which requires you to run the quest at least four times

8. Chamber of Raiyum - it's optional, but there are other quests that you can run to acquire seals which make the fights much easier

There are others, but the point is clear - lots of quests required to flag for raids have different mechanics than the typical quest.

[Gremmlynn]

People are not "forced" to run the quests. If they choose not to do so however, they do so with the understanding that they are not entitled to run the content in the plot after that quest or obtain the gear dropped in that content.
Cool, give me the option to run the content without the gear dropping (or the xp even) as that's the real reason for the flagging. Having to endure content I don't like just for the privilege to run the content I do like in a P2P adventure pack just doesn't make good sense to me, sorry. If the quests were bought individually, it would. But as it's an all or nothing proposition thing and I can't run Tor without owning Crucible, I don't see the problem, outside of the loot and maybe xp issue.

But then I guess I'm not forced to buy those adventure packs in the first place and can now just consider it a learning experience.

[eonfreon]

Maybe they dont build evasion toons and each time they run someone else is more qualified to do that part of the quest. At least they run the quest however.

And yes I am completely aware that people can be carried through content and pike a flag so to speak, but any other option would not prevent this.

Exactly. Adding more options would not prevent piking. But it would encourage people who don't like the quest to put up LFms for it. Because they can use another option to avoid the most annoying aspects of a quest, rather than wait and wait for someone else to join. So they know they can just "take the first 5" and go, rather than hope that someone who "can be a guide" or someone who "has the right skillsets" can join.

Especially if it's an option that also requires gameplay, than the game is not hurt by it. More people are willing to run annoying content without waiting for "perfect party makeups" but who will stil appreciate having the "intended skillsets" because it will save their resource. Remember, the "bypass" device need not be "easy".

[Kmnh]

IHave you ever been in a PnP campaign and said to the DM "hey this part of the module's too hard, can we just skip it and go to the end?"

I had it happen to me when I was DMing. I ended one session on a cliifhanger, and my players got so scared of the description of a room and bad guy that they showed up on the other day asking not to fight him. I had no idea what to say :D



Have you ever had a video game you enjoyed where you could just skip the hard levels to get to the rewards of the fun levels?


Yes! Snes games did it all the time. Stuff like Donkey Kong Country and Super Mario World would let people bypass the hard levels with teleporting barrels and pipes and the like. It was a nice way to let all kids get a trophy :)


Is it that hard to do the crucible swim on casual? You can stop at each spiky wall and drink a pot or two. You don't need to do the quest on elite to get your flag.

[Chai]

Okay you're against this request. That's fine. But don't tell me what the "entire principle of the D&D game is based on". I don't care about which version you're quoting or which chapter. My AD&D books talked about everything from disruptive behaviors and how to encourage a game of wits, strategy, and puzzle solving AND how to appeal to more rolling dice and chance driven chararacters, who of course also used game mechanics to weigh things in their favor.

Sorry, but forced cooperation is what D&D is based on - from the mouths of the original authors themselves.


A dungeon was made to be dissected at will by the DM and players. Not forced to follow a specific route. There were alternative "boxes" even if you will.

You can run crucible quite a few different ways. Or you can choose not to run it. What you can NOT DO, is choose not to run it and then still talk about being entitled to gear rewards from later on in the plot.


The concept of "kill the party" had to do with total disregard for the fun of the adventure. The adventure itself was to provide rules to allow things to happen at an appropriate rate. Success and failure relied as much on interaction of DM and player as with dice rolls.


As I've said, the game already provides all sorts of alternatives to linear quest and quest progressions. I don't see this as a bad thing or trend or what have you. It allows replay of quests because a player can use an item to avoid a mechanic that another player can just deal with at no problem.

Right, but choosing not to participate in linear plot progression is choosing to not make it to the end of that plot, and not reap the reward. If I designed a module where the players were supposed to complete X task and they choose to go off on Y tangent, they dont get the loot for completing X task anyway - but they will likely get some other reward for completing whatever they are tangenting off to.


Basically just because you and I want to do the swim doesn't guarantee that any group of 6 will find someone who does. Yes, odds are on the side of finding groups that can have one character who wants to do it. I realize that you want to reduce soloing quests as well. I agree that Casual does indeed do a good job of "training" people while they try to get into more experienced parties, but I don't agree that other alternatives can't be implemented.

How did we complete this quest for the past 4 (almost 5) years. We found someone to do the swim, thats how. Whether its one person who does it, or all 6 people who jump in, that swim gets done.


Easy button is the least of the game's problems. And it has nothing to do with the OP's request. I ersonally don't care if anything is ever changed to Crucible because I've already learned it and beat it. Several times. I like it.

Easy button has everything to do with the OPs request. They dont like crucible because its a type of quest they dont like running, so they are asking for something different.


But if someone were to suggest changes to the stupid Rat Trap quest in Necro I would likely be on board. It was also a stupid mechanic. For all I know it may have been fixed. I don't know, because I haven't stepped in. Luckily I did it for Favor and forgot about it, luckily it didn't affect any other part of the quest chains for me. It's a shame some quests reach this point of limbo to some players.


I believe all it would take is some small change to alleviate this. Then people like the OP can actually run the quest, even halfway the way it was "intended", rather than avoid it like the plague.

They should run the content as intended, or not expect to reap the rewards from quests further along in the same plot.


In an online game that wants to attract people to run and puchase content, making that content even more robust with options is not a bad thing.

With other completely different options yes. With options that dumb the game down by bypassing other already easy options people feel they cant be bothered to complete, no. Those kinds of games get boring real quick and have no replay value.


Whatever your version of the DMG says, forced cooperation is not the basic principle of D&D. Cooperation and role play which included roll play of dice as "deciders" was. That was the basic principle. Yes, you killed a party that did everything wrong or just didn't want to play together really. But you did not force them to bang their heads against an obstacle.

Forced cooperation is THE principle the D&D game is based on - stated by the original authors themselves and reinforced in THE DMG (not "my version of the DMG") - the LITERAL DMG.


"Role" playing is very limited in a video game environment, but that was the principle of D&D. Whenever "forced cooperation" entered the game I don't know, but I certainly won't take your word for it being a "principle" of D&D. At best I could see a tournament game or such getting that label. And that was not a very important aspect to most people who played D&D. At least to me it had no bearing.

Dont take my word for it - look it up. The DMs primary job was to create situations the party had to cooperate with eachother in, in order to resolve the situation. The crucible is one of the last bastion of quests that adheres to this principle.

[ButtersStotch]

I really hope that you aren't arguing that quests should be reduced in difficulty/complexity b/c some players have crappy PCs/internet connections. That's what your statement sounds like to me.

Absolutely not. I love both the difficulty -and- the complexity of Coalescence Chamber. It is arguably one of my favorite quests. Do I expect other people to love it and want to do it just because I do? Negative. But I also wouldn't hold it against someone for choosing an alternate route to flagging, if it were available. For example, if the Vale had the option of trading one of the main flagging quests for three secondary flagging quests, I think it would be a decent trade-off. People who loathe Coalescence Chamber (note: loathe it, not necessarily 'are incapable of completing it') would then be able to run the Shroud without having to waste an hour being miserable.




Have you ever been in a PnP campaign and said to the DM "hey this part of the module's too hard, can we just skip it and go to the end?" Have you ever had a video game you enjoyed where you could just skip the hard levels to get to the rewards of the fun levels?


Some people just hate certain quests - for whatever reason. You can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time. Flag or do not flag, there is enough content that one can skip entire chains and packs altogether and still have a wonderful gaming experience.

Haha. This is the part where I have to admit to never having played tabletop. Boyfriend used to, so what little he talks about it.. is the extent of my knowledge in that department. Most of the video games I play are RPGs that don't really have a set path. I suppose if we timewarp back to Super Mario or Grand Theft Auto days.. yeah. I could take the little green tunnel and skip -right past- a bunch of levels. Or I could do some fancy button pressing and have unlimited weapons to vanquish pedestrians with. I don't expect (nor do I want) that sort of thing in DDO, though.

I'm not concerned with the raid gear, as mentioned in an earlier post. If I can't solo/duo the raid, I don't have any interest in doing it. But I -do- enjoy the pre-raid quests that you have to flag for (flagging in order to flag never made a lot of sense to me). I don't -want- to have to skip Tor because I dread the thought of going into the Crucible. I don't -want- to skip Litany because that undead beholder makes me want to punch small children. It isn't a matter of 'skill' or 'party make-up' or 'learning the quest.' I know both of those quests. I am capable of completing both of those quests, by myself no less. I'd just like an -additional- path, if possible, so that I can avoid what I do not like in order to get to what I do like. A bit selfish, I know.

[eonfreon]

Is it that hard to do the crucible swim on casual? You can stop at each spiky wall and drink a pot or two. You don't need to do the quest on elite to get your flag.

And how does that encourage grouping? Whenever he wants to flag he does /snore Casual mode. And when he wants an Elite Favor run he waits for a way over the level experienced run to occur?

So the meat of the quest becomes largely ignored because a certain mechanic that can make a quest annoying as hell, either in time or resource, works to dissuade people like the OP from ever running it unless they absolutely have to.

Okay, in the end it really isn't "broke" so it doesn't need fixing. The OP can just move past it and "level up" where more quests and gear exist that makes this quest completely unnecessary. But imagine if the quest was a "mandatory" endgame quest (of which it was ;)). That had to be run over and over for what may have at endgame time really wanted.

Oh well, guess it's a drag for the OP. Since I know it like the back of my hand I don't have to worry about it. Sorry OP, sucks to be you ;). Good luck. Haven't played at that level in awhile. But when I do I hope I can help you out.

[Chai]

Cool, give me the option to run the content without the gear dropping (or the xp even) as that's the real reason for the flagging. Having to endure content I don't like just for the privilege to run the content I do like in a P2P adventure pack just doesn't make good sense to me, sorry. If the quests were bought individually, it would. But as it's an all or nothing proposition thing and I can't run Tor without owning Crucible, I don't see the problem, outside of the loot and maybe xp issue.

But then I guess I'm not forced to buy those adventure packs in the first place and can now just consider it a learning experience.

Yeap exactly, and if you can show Turbine through voting with your wallet that this is what the players want, they might actually act on it. Fat chance of that happening however - too many people like the crucible or in the very least dont mind running it in order to flag for other specific quests.

[Towrn]

I stopped reading after I read the OP's third or fourth post.

You hate the quest...we got that.

Many love the quest.

There is but one solution here. Either learn the swim or don't do the quest. As far as you not wanting to have to "practice" a quest; did you know everything you were doing in every other quest the first time you ran them? Or did you have to run them a few times, i.e: practice them?

There are many quests in this game I hate with a passion, you know what I do, I don't do them.

I personally would have to agree with many I know that this is one of the best quests they ever put into the game.

[eonfreon]

Forced cooperation is THE principle the D&D game is based on - stated by the original authors themselves and reinforced in THE DMG (not "my version of the DMG") - the LITERAL DMG.


Fine. Someday I'll care enough to go to my dad's house and look at my DMG and look it up- let me know the page, I'll write it down. Maybe it really was Gary Gygax's idea of THE principle of D&D. I loved the game. But that wasn't what I got out of it.

But in the end even THE DMG is "your version of the DMG", not mine. The rules were read and adapted. The game itself changed and adapted.

And in the end it doesn't have much bearing on this topic. I'm not against "forcing cooperation". The OP is NOT asking to suddenly be teleported to the end.

If he was, I'd say "work for it".

[ButtersStotch]

Maybe they dont build evasion toons and each time they run someone else is more qualified to do that part of the quest. At least they run the quest however.

And yes I am completely aware that people can be carried through content and pike a flag so to speak, but any other option would not prevent this.


Many people have also noted that you don't necessarily need an evasion character to get through the swim. Someone else being more qualified is a good argument, but there's still the option of doing a 'let's learn this quest!' run.. or going back after completion to do it. You argued that people needed to learn the quest and that they were not entitled to any loot or progression, if not willing to learn.


No, its a wonderful idea for all players in the quest to learn all of the content. If they cant be bothered to learn the content, they cant expect to continue on in the plot and obtain gear.

Cant be bothered = not entitled.

Your opinions seem to be conflicting. And, yes, I realize that having a second option would not necessarily mean that piking would be eliminated (moar solo quests? :D), but pretending like everyone who is flagged for Reaver's learned or earned -anything- (the quest, their progression, etcetc) simply by making the decision to walk in is comical. By your own admission, this is not true.

[Cyr]

I stopped reading after I read the OP's third or fourth post.

You hate the quest...we got that.

Many love the quest.

There is but one solution here. Either learn the swim or don't do the quest. As far as you not wanting to have to "practice" a quest; did you know everything you were doing in every other quest the first time you ran them? Or did you have to run them a few times, i.e: practice them?

There are many quests in this game I hate with a passion, you know what I do, I don't do them.

I personally would have to agree with many I know that this is one of the best quests they ever put into the game.

I think dismissing things as do it or ignore it far too simplistic. There are big reasons why I think the swim is poor game design. The biggest one though is the sit around and wait for someone to do it aspect and in reality that is what it is. Either you do it and everyone else sits around or you sit around.

I think the quest would be dramatically improved if the swim was accessible the moment you exited the maze. That would allow someone to jump in while the others carried on with the quest.

[stainer]

So far in crucible I have learned how to stand at I and pull the lever. Go to the middle, climb down, got to the north, climb up, exit the maze. Kill stuff. Wait for someone to get the horn. Kill stuff. Do the Red puzzle wheel (I can do blue or green in a pinch). Kill stuff. Stand at the edge of the water while someone does the swim. Kill stuff. Wait for the end fight to start. Kill bosses. Equip voice. Receive a brazzillion xp,

That is way more than I can do in Abbott. All I know how to do there is /sleep in Asteroids and make sure I die on the platform. Dying in the water sucks.

[eonfreon]

I think dismissing things as do it or ignore it far too simplistic. There are big reasons why I think the swim is poor game design. The biggest one though is the sit around and wait for someone to do it aspect and in reality that is what it is. Either you do it and everyone else sits around or you sit around.

I think the quest would be dramatically improved if the swim was accessible the moment you exited the maze. That would allow someone to jump in while the others carried on with the quest.

Yes, even that would be an improvement. I do like Crucible, but all the parts where you have to "wait here" get a little tedious. Luckily all of my last characters could solo it at level, so I never have to wait LOL.

[Zenthalas]

I think dismissing things as do it or ignore it far too simplistic. There are big reasons why I think the swim is poor game design. The biggest one though is the sit around and wait for someone to do it aspect and in reality that is what it is. Either you do it and everyone else sits around or you sit around.

I think the quest would be dramatically improved if the swim was accessible the moment you exited the maze. That would allow someone to jump in while the others carried on with the quest.

No one has ever said that only 1 person can do the swim at a time, it's smarter to do it that way to minimize risk of a party wipe in the swim. I have taken more than a few people through the swim to teach it to them, usually carrying their stones in the process but mehh it's the learning curve.

[Gremmlynn]

Yeap exactly, and if you can show Turbine through voting with your wallet that this is what the players want, they might actually act on it. Fat chance of that happening however - too many people like the crucible or in the very least dont mind running it in order to flag for other specific quests.Or they could read this thread and have an epiphany, like "hey we could make even more money if we gave customers options that caused them all to vote yes with their wallets". Why does it have to be an either/or issue when it's possible to have both?

[Postumus]

The biggest one though is the sit around and wait for someone to do it aspect and in reality that is what it is. Either you do it and everyone else sits around or you sit around.

I think the quest would be dramatically improved if the swim was accessible the moment you exited the maze. That would allow someone to jump in while the others carried on with the quest.

That's why I think there should be non-stop spawning mobs or deadly traps that relentlessly damage any characters who stand around waiting for a single swimmer. Then everyone would have to do the swim every time, or at the very least they'd have something else to occupy their time.

[Postumus]

Or they could read this thread and have an epiphany, like "hey we could make even more money if we gave customers options that caused them all to vote yes with their wallets". Why does it have to be an either/or issue when it's possible to have both?

So everyone in the group inserts a 'free pass token' (available for 25 tps) into a token repository (like the ones in the challenges) and you just get to bypass that particular challenge?

I think you'd hear a lot more screaming from the P2W!!! folks.

[Memnir]

I must say, though, that I don't quite understand -why- the idea of having alternate options is so vehemently opposed. It isn't an easy button, especially if the alternate quests are considerably 'difficult' as well.Speaking only for myself - I am against it because I think it's unnecessary. Why create new mechanics/totally new quests in order to circumvent a quest or quests simply because a person dislikes running it the way it was intended to be run?

The problem isn't really with Crucible beyond personal preferences. You prefer to run solo, and that is harder to do in Crucible (not impossible, but more problematic). But that preference to run solo does not, and in my opinion should not, equate a need to redesign things so they suit your predilection's.

At least that's my opinion.

[eonfreon]

So everyone in the group inserts a 'free pass token' (available for 25 tps) into a token repository (like the ones in the challenges) and you just get to bypass that particular challenge?

I think you'd hear a lot more screaming from the P2W!!! folks.

Or they play the rest of the content to allow them to bypass other aspects that they dislike about this quest. And thus avoid having to P2W!!

It really isn't all or nothing. The quest itself already has "bypass mechanics". Don't know why originally really. I guess it was to appease those that wanted "skill points" to matter over "hack and slash". I could Diplo and Intimidate to make sure I had less "hack and slash" later on.

Unless I'm confusing the quest with other GH quests, I do remember Diplo options to avoid fights later on.

And for those of you who say "how can he profess to know this quest when he ain't even sure which one it is", it's simple. Just because I haven't done it in awhile doesn't mean I don't have notes on it. As with most quests once I step in I start to think "oh yeah", or worse comes to worse I look it up. I "care" that much.

[ButtersStotch]

Or they could read this thread and have an epiphany, like "hey we could make even more money if we gave customers options that caused them all to vote yes with their wallets". Why does it have to be an either/or issue when it's possible to have both?


Thank you.

[Enoach]

So am I getting this right... The reason some people do not like this quest is because they have chosen to stand around and wait for someone else to do it?

As many have pointed out the swim in Crucible can be done by the majority of the team, if one goes and keeps pulling the Valve which by the way removes the rushing water for an exact amount of time. This means even negative swim skill people can swim and be safe from the spikes. There are enough spots that a person can swim too to be safe from the instant rush of water and than continue to swim.

Do I like every quest in DDO, not hardly. But I still do all of them, why? because I enjoy the game as a whole. To me it's like an apple pie - I love the filling, but i'm not crazy about the pie crust. I still enjoy eating the whole thing.

[Gremmlynn]

So everyone in the group inserts a 'free pass token' (available for 25 tps) into a token repository (like the ones in the challenges) and you just get to bypass that particular challenge?

I think you'd hear a lot more screaming from the P2W!!! folks.No, everyone has the option of running 3 of the 4, or more, flagging quests to get their raid flag. What's pay to win about that? Hell as they wouldn't necessarily lock each other out it just adds more content options to the game by allowing everyone the option, but not the requirement, of running them all if they like.

[Qhualor]

So far in crucible I have learned how to stand at I and pull the lever. Go to the middle, climb down, got to the north, climb up, exit the maze. Kill stuff. Wait for someone to get the horn. Kill stuff. Do the Red puzzle wheel (I can do blue or green in a pinch). Kill stuff. Stand at the edge of the water while someone does the swim. Kill stuff. Wait for the end fight to start. Kill bosses. Equip voice. Receive a brazzillion xp,

That is way more than I can do in Abbott. All I know how to do there is /sleep in Asteroids and make sure I die on the platform. Dying in the water sucks.

i hold this post responsible for buying me a new laptop screen. i spewed my chocolate milk all over it :D

[eonfreon]

Speaking only for myself - I am against it because I think it's unnecessary. Why create new mechanics/totally new quests in order to circumvent a quest or quests simply because a person dislikes running it the way it was intended to be run?

The problem isn't really with Crucible beyond personal preferences. You prefer to run solo, and that is harder to do in Crucible (not impossible, but more problematic). But that preference to run solo does not, and in my opinion should not, equate a need to redesign things so they suit your predilection's.

At least that's my opinion.

I guess it all comes down to an opinion of what is "necessary" then.

If you think it shouldn't be done because it's unnecessary to you, then nothing can ever be done to make you think otherwise, because it will never be "necessary" to you.

It isn't necessary to me. The only reason I would like things like this to be considered is because I would like the OP to have alternatives. They don't have to be easier. In the end the easiest way for the OP to get "through it" is to group with me or others like me and learn the swim. Or the maze. Or the Horn Maze. Or the Wheels, etc.

But any one aspect of the overall quest design/aspect should not be pass/fail. Several? Sure. And even the one can be fail, if no other recourse could be met. But creating other recources should not in of itself be reviled.

At least that's my opinion.

[Towrn]

I think dismissing things as do it or ignore it far too simplistic. There are big reasons why I think the swim is poor game design. The biggest one though is the sit around and wait for someone to do it aspect and in reality that is what it is. Either you do it and everyone else sits around or you sit around.

I think the quest would be dramatically improved if the swim was accessible the moment you exited the maze. That would allow someone to jump in while the others carried on with the quest.


You're argument Cyr makes no sense to me. The second third and fourth "tests" in this quest are done by 1 person while the others sit and wait.

1 person goes into the trap room while others wait at shrine door, 1 person opens the doors while everyone else waits far back so possible traps don't hit them, 1 person makes the swim while everyone else waits.

If the swim was accessible as soon as you got out of the maze, most groups would have to wait for the person doing the swim to do the trap room, so how would this solve the "wait around for the swim guy" problem?

P.S: I like arguing with guildies, it's therapeutic. Log onto TS so I can argue with you there.

[ButtersStotch]

Speaking only for myself - I am against it because I think it's unnecessary. Why create new mechanics/totally new quests in order to circumvent a quest or quests simply because a person dislikes running it the way it was intended to be run?

The problem isn't really with Crucible beyond personal preferences. You prefer to run solo, and that is harder to do in Crucible (not impossible, but more problematic). But that preference to run solo does not, and in my opinion should not, equate a need to redesign things so they suit your predilection's.

At least that's my opinion.


That's fair enough. New content (i.e., new quests/mechanics) is a necessary part of DDO, though. If they were to add -on- to Gianthold, with updated mobs, tactics, dungeon layouts, and all of that jazz.. I'd go for it. Gianthold is, from what I've gathered, quite old. I mean.. when is -anyone- excited to find Steady Handed Armbands or a Skullsmasher? New quests, new loot, new options. This appeals to me. -Especially- if I can flag -those- quests instead of -these- quests. Or a mixture of both. Prison of the Planes is one of my favorite quests, after all.

My problem with the Crucible is not a matter of my being a solo player. I am quite capable of getting through the quest all by my lonesome, and I have done so on many occasions. My preference to run solo is not the reason I want to be able to bypass the Crucible to get to Tor. My hatred for the Crucible is the reason I want to be able to bypass the Crucible.

[Qhualor]

if turbine changes gianthold, which i consider one of the best adventure packs in the game, simply because flagging quests are too difficult for some people to solo or flagging is too time consuming and come up with an easy button way to flag for a raid, than i want to bypass low levels and just jump to level 11 where questing becomes easier for me.

[Memnir]

The only reason I would like things like this to be considered is because I would like the OP to have alternatives.Fair enough - but where does it end if it begins?


I mean, I hate Halflings. Their football shaped head and /laugh both creep me out. But, I love their racial benefits and enhancement lines. Why can't I pay Turbine Points or do a quest so I can have those perks with a Human body-shape?

I also love the Training Dummy, but hate that it takes so long to beat it down with lower-level alts. Why can't I collect enough of X so I can craft a Dummy Disfunctioner, and be able to beat it down and get the buff in two hits regardless of DPS or other gear?

I don't like farming STK 3 for a Ring of Feathers... why can't there be an alternative that doesn't require running through those traps if I'm not on a class that can disable?



All just examples - but they make my point. There will always be cases made for exemptions... and none of them are really necessary, or even in keeping with the design of the game. Options are good, but they are not always suitable for every situation - or are even able to suit everyone's individual preferences. If they did happen to make new quests in GH, or add new collectables to be able to turn in and skip Crucible... would there be more options added the next time a person dislikes both Crucible and the collectable turn in?

[eonfreon]

That's fair enough. New content (i.e., new quests/mechanics) is a necessary part of DDO, though. If they were to add -on- to Gianthold, with updated mobs, tactics, dungeon layouts, and all of that jazz.. I'd go for it. Gianthold is, from what I've gathered, quite old. I mean.. when is -anyone- excited to find Steady Handed Armbands or a Skullsmasher? New quests, new loot, new options. This appeals to me. -Especially- if I can flag -those- quests instead of -these- quests. Or a mixture of both. Prison of the Planes is one of my favorite quests, after all.

My problem with the Crucible is not a matter of my being a solo player. I am quite capable of getting through the quest all by my lonesome, and I have done so on many occasions. My preference to run solo is not the reason I want to be able to bypass the Crucible to get to Tor. My hatred for the Crucible is the reason I want to be able to bypass the Crucible.

Prisoner of the Planes (PoP) was pretty awesome. My favorite still is the Minotaurs and that maze; Maze of Madness maybe. Way back when you could CloudKill the Mobs. Personally, I had more fun being the trap-disabler, Evasion lever puller. Hated the CK method. Glad that got fixed.

Oh well. Too bad you hate the Crucible. It really is fun. Just needs a little tweaking is all. Or the right skillset.

[Memnir]

My hatred for the Crucible is the reason I want to be able to bypass the Crucible.Which, in my opinion, not a compelling reason to redo things.

[Gremmlynn]

if turbine changes gianthold, which i consider one of the best adventure packs in the game, simply because flagging quests are too difficult for some people to solo or flagging is too time consuming and come up with an easy button way to flag for a raid, than i want to bypass low levels and just jump to level 11 where questing becomes easier for me.None of which is what is being asked for that I've read. What is being asked for are options that are more entertaining, to some, in a game that is played solely to entertain the players.

[eonfreon]

Fair enough - but where does it end if it begins?


I mean, I hate Halflings. Their football shaped head and /laugh both creep me out. But, I love their racial benefits and enhancement lines. Why can't I pay Turbine Points or do a quest so I can have those perks with a Human body-shape?

I also love the Training Dummy, but hate that it takes so long to beat it down with lower-level alts. Why can't I collect enough of X so I can craft a Dummy Disfunctioner, and be able to beat it down and get the buff in two hits regardless of DPS or other gear?

I don't like farming STK 3 for a Ring of Feathers... why can't there be an alternative that doesn't require running through those traps if I'm not on a class that can disable?



All just examples - but they make my point. There will always be cases made for exemptions... and none of them are really necessary, or even in keeping with the design of the game. Options are good, but they are not always suitable for every situation - or are even able to suit everyone's individual preferences. If they did happen to make new quests in GH, or add new collectables to be able to turn in and skip Crucible... would there be more options added the next time a person dislikes both Crucible and the collectable turn in?

Once again, it doesn't have to involve TP whatsoever. If you want to run the argument into the ground with whatchamacallit absurdities, then go ahead. I'm sure the asking for more alternatives will never end, you're right there. I look at each instance, not the whole. ALthough I do indeed consider the whole.

Looking at the "whole" I can't see any problem with spending "some" time programming an "avoid the freaking X" mechanic.

How much resource should be spent? A little more than none is my vote.

[ButtersStotch]

if turbine changes gianthold, which i consider one of the best adventure packs in the game, simply because flagging quests are too difficult for some people to solo or flagging is too time consuming and come up with an easy button way to flag for a raid, than i want to bypass low levels and just jump to level 11 where questing becomes easier for me.

Well, lucky for you, you'll soon be getting what you want. With Veteran Status adding a second tier in order to start at level seven, it's only a matter of time before we jump right up to eleven. Especially with those permanent XP increase tomes.


I would appreciate it if everyone (edit: some people) stopped assuming we (at least a couple of us) want existing Gianthold quests changed. I don't want the Crucible nerfed. I don't want Madstone to be made solo-only. And I don't want Prison of the Planes to be nuked from existence. None of these quests are 'too difficult' or 'too time consuming' for me to SOLO (or duo with a hireling for lever-pulling, if people want to get persnickety about the definition of 'solo'). I'm not sure how the option of doing X amount of other quests in lieu of ONE existing quest is an 'easy button.' I'm not drinking a magical elixir that gives me the XP/completion of the Crucible. I'm working (in a different way) for XP/completion of the -flag.-

[eonfreon]

Well, lucky for you, you'll soon be getting what you want. With Veteran Status adding a second tier in order to start at level seven, it's only a matter of time before we jump right up to eleven. Especially with those permanent XP increase tomes.


I would appreciate it if everyone stopped assuming we (at least a couple of us) want existing Gianthold quests changed. I don't want the Crucible nerfed. I don't want Madstone to be made solo-only. And I don't want Prison of the Planes to be nuked from existence. None of these quests are 'too difficult' or 'too time consuming' for me to SOLO (or duo with a hireling for lever-pulling, if people want to get persnickety about the definition of 'solo'). I'm not sure how the option of doing X amount of other quests in lieu of ONE existing quest is an 'easy button.' I'm not drinking a magical elixir that gives me the XP/completion of the Crucible. I'm working (in a different way) for XP/completion of the -flag.-

Or barring skipping the whole quest, would you like to be able to skip certain aspects of the quest, as long as you can meet other parameters?

I know, it's a loaded question. How can one really say they'll prefer the alternative until they know the alternative?

For the "storyline" Crucible is essential. You'd have to prove yourself some other way.

[eonfreon]

Which, in my opinion, not a compelling reason to redo things.

Of course not. Only your own hatred for the same quest would be a compelling reason, right?

[Memnir]

Of course not. Only your own hatred for the same quest would be a compelling reason, right?
Not at all.
If I hate a quest, I don't run it at all and find something else I do enjoy instead. :)

I don't presume that just because I don't enjoy something that it needs to be changed.

[Gremmlynn]

Fair enough - but where does it end if it begins?


I mean, I hate Halflings. Their football shaped head and /laugh both creep me out. But, I love their racial benefits and enhancement lines. Why can't I pay Turbine Points or do a quest so I can have those perks with a Human body-shape? I don't know. why not? It's not like it's a PvP game in which visual clues are important, so what does it matter?


I also love the Training Dummy, but hate that it takes so long to beat it down with lower-level alts. Why can't I collect enough of X so I can craft a Dummy Disfunctioner, and be able to beat it down and get the buff in two hits regardless of DPS or other gear? Again, why not? Every other ship buff is like that, don't see why the dummy doesn't have a 2 hit option for those who just want the buff or even a more than 2 hit option for those who want to test something on it with 2 hits being the default. It's likely how I would have done things in the first place.


I don't like farming STK 3 for a Ring of Feathers... why can't there be an alternative that doesn't require running through those traps if I'm not on a class that can disable? Already in the game. It's called Caneth crafting. One now has an option to get a ring without ever running that quest.




All just examples - but they make my point. There will always be cases made for exemptions... and none of them are really necessary, or even in keeping with the design of the game. Options are good, but they are not always suitable for every situation - or are even able to suit everyone's individual preferences. If they did happen to make new quests in GH, or add new collectables to be able to turn in and skip Crucible... would there be more options added the next time a person dislikes both Crucible and the collectable turn in?If they are cost effective, why not? Making one's product more appealing to more potential customers is usually considered a good business practice.

[Memnir]

point by point analysisI think you missed the point of the following...
All just examples - but they make my point.Meh - whatever. Much like quests - I'm going to go find something else I find more enjoyable. ;)

[Elation]

Absolutely not. I love both the difficulty -and- the complexity of Coalescence Chamber. It is arguably one of my favorite quests. Do I expect other people to love it and want to do it just because I do? Negative. But I also wouldn't hold it against someone for choosing an alternate route to flagging, if it were available. For example, if the Vale had the option of trading one of the main flagging quests for three secondary flagging quests, I think it would be a decent trade-off. People who loathe Coalescence Chamber (note: loathe it, not necessarily 'are incapable of completing it') would then be able to run the Shroud without having to waste an hour being miserable.





Haha. This is the part where I have to admit to never having played tabletop. Boyfriend used to, so what little he talks about it.. is the extent of my knowledge in that department. Most of the video games I play are RPGs that don't really have a set path. I suppose if we timewarp back to Super Mario or Grand Theft Auto days.. yeah. I could take the little green tunnel and skip -right past- a bunch of levels. Or I could do some fancy button pressing and have unlimited weapons to vanquish pedestrians with. I don't expect (nor do I want) that sort of thing in DDO, though.

I'm not concerned with the raid gear, as mentioned in an earlier post. If I can't solo/duo the raid, I don't have any interest in doing it. But I -do- enjoy the pre-raid quests that you have to flag for (flagging in order to flag never made a lot of sense to me). I don't -want- to have to skip Tor because I dread the thought of going into the Crucible. I don't -want- to skip Litany because that undead beholder makes me want to punch small children. It isn't a matter of 'skill' or 'party make-up' or 'learning the quest.' I know both of those quests. I am capable of completing both of those quests, by myself no less. I'd just like an -additional- path, if possible, so that I can avoid what I do not like in order to get to what I do like. A bit selfish, I know.

I do not foresee a reason for the developers to go back and write new content for an established pack. The pack is good as is and will remain so it does not need tweaking when there are other more important things to work on. If they do add an additional way to flag then maybe it should not include xp since your taking the easy button route.

[ButtersStotch]

Or barring skipping the whole quest, would you like to be able to skip certain aspects of the quest, as long as you can meet other parameters?

I know, it's a loaded question. How can one really say they'll prefer the alternative until they know the alternative?

For the "storyline" Crucible is essential. You'd have to prove yourself some other way.

I must admit that I haven't read the storyline in so long.. that I'm not exactly sure -why- it would be essential. Lol. I'd still prefer to have him tell me I could prove myself in the Crucible.. -or- by gathering X things from Y quests (or whatever).

To answer your question, though, I suppose I -would- like that. I don't -really want- there to be a change to the Crucible because I know there are people who enjoy it (immensely) as it is. But if I had the option of collecting things from the walk-ups to turn in (a la Wizard King), or the ability to use some Skill to bypass something (Search for an alternate route through the maze?), or whatever (much more imaginative) people can come up with.. even without knowing what the other options are, I know I would appreciate at least having the options.

[Gremmlynn]

I do not foresee a reason for the developers to go back and write new content for an established pack. The pack is good as is and will remain so it does not need tweaking when there are other more important things to work on. If they do add an additional way to flag then maybe it should not include xp since your taking the easy button route.Um, you know this not yet existent alternative route is the easy button route through superior precognitive ability I'm assuming. Or is something that others might find potentially more entertaining just an easy button by default?

[ButtersStotch]

I do not foresee a reason for the developers to go back and write new content for an established pack. The pack is good as is and will remain so it does not need tweaking when there are other more important things to work on. If they do add an additional way to flag then maybe it should not include xp since your taking the easy button route.


You know what? I'd be okay with that. As I've mentioned -numerous times- in this thread, I don't NEED the Crucible's amazing XP, and I don't NEED anyone's help in flagging or learning the quest(s). I am capable of gathering XP elsewhere, as well as relying only on myself to complete a quest.

Whether or not the pack is 'good' is purely subjective -- I could very easily argue that it is garbage, or that the Vault of Night pack is vastly superior to the Gianthold pack. Does that make it true? No. Does that mean that your enjoyment of Gianthold should be squashed? No. Does that mean it shouldn't be revisited? -No.-

The loot is outdated (as they are obviously well aware, otherwise they wouldn't be implementing changes to the raid loot). But I suppose you aren't interested in any of those Seals since the pack 'does not need tweaking,' right?

It's not an easy button to ask for variety, especially if I'm asking to have to do, say, three quests in place of -one.- Where I come from, they call that an increased work load, not a gorram 'easy button.' Adding new quests to an established area doesn't hurt anyone, so I still have no idea why so many are opposed to the idea.


/edit

I apologize for my frustration. I am just -so tired- of the claim that not wanting to do the Crucible means I am incompetent, lazy (It's a video game! We are all, by the very nature of the video game, being lazy when we play.), in dire need of an easy button, or some other nasty (untrue) thing. :'(

[eonfreon]

Not at all.
If I hate a quest, I don't run it at all and find something else I do enjoy instead. :)

I don't presume that just because I don't enjoy something that it needs to be changed.

Which is great for quests outside a chain. Inside a chain the luxury of "find something else I do enjoy instead" is a little bit limited by how desirable the "end" of a chain is. Does it lead to a Raid? Or another cool quest?

Breaking free from linear requirements doesn't invalidate a different approach from reaching the final destination.
Quest Chains have been loosened up a bit already. They don't have to be alleviated with TPs either. Just add to existing gameplay. I'm for adding simple alternatives that can be easily incorporated into the grand design.

[eonfreon]

I think you missed the point of the following...Meh - whatever. Much like quests - I'm going to go find something else I find more enjoyable. ;)

You always make very good points. I guess we just disagree on what can be changed in the game. Quests to me should be allowed to be completed in many different ways.

I don't think it requires any changing myself. But I am open to it being changed to make it more played. I don't want to see people skip it. But I would like to see people more willing to play it.

[voxson5]

TL;DR the whole thread

Wow... just wow....
people wanting to nerf a quest that is supposed to be a challenge

and is supposed to be about teamwork

---------------

I wish this thread was... elsewhere... so I could verbalize correctly how I feel about people suggesting such things

[Cyr]

You're argument Cyr makes no sense to me. The second third and fourth "tests" in this quest are done by 1 person while the others sit and wait.

1 person goes into the trap room while others wait at shrine door, 1 person opens the doors while everyone else waits far back so possible traps don't hit them, 1 person makes the swim while everyone else waits.

If the swim was accessible as soon as you got out of the maze, most groups would have to wait for the person doing the swim to do the trap room, so how would this solve the "wait around for the swim guy" problem?

P.S: I like arguing with guildies, it's therapeutic. Log onto TS so I can argue with you there.

Yes, those rooms are also kind of silly, but they are also pretty fast. I think all those solo rooms should be non-linear in that quest. Basically the horns should go in the last door and the other doors should be open and the water path at the maze should lead to the swim (in addition to the original location). Basically it would mean people would split up to do those rooms while others went foward. Faster completions, less sitting around...

[Elation]

You know what? I'd be okay with that. As I've mentioned -numerous times- in this thread, I don't NEED the Crucible's amazing XP, and I don't NEED anyone's help in flagging or learning the quest(s). I am capable of gathering XP elsewhere, as well as relying only on myself to complete a quest.

Whether or not the pack is 'good' is purely subjective -- I could very easily argue that it is garbage, or that the Vault of Night pack is vastly superior to the Gianthold pack. Does that make it true? No. Does that mean that your enjoyment of Gianthold should be squashed? No. Does that mean it shouldn't be revisited? -No.-

The loot is outdated (as they are obviously well aware, otherwise they wouldn't be implementing changes to the raid loot). But I suppose you aren't interested in any of those Seals since the pack 'does not need tweaking,' right?

It's not an easy button to ask for variety, especially if I'm asking to have to do, say, three quests in place of -one.- Where I come from, they call that an increased work load, not a gorram 'easy button.' Adding new quests to an established area doesn't hurt anyone, so I still have no idea why so many are opposed to the idea.

Actaully not interested in any of the seals i have a bunch just sitting in my ingredients bag. It is asking for away around doing a quest because you dont like it so you can continue on the story line. So what happens when you do not like the alternative do you then come back and ask for even more alternate routes to as you put it an old out dated pack? That way eventually you will find something you like. never liked the idea of farm this many relics or anything for turn in. Specially here since it is already a part of the chain.

Point being there is no reason to change the quests their difficulty is appropriate for the level range and the xp you can 2500 xp before you even get to the water with no effort. SO there for not a waste either way. I do not see a reason to update there are other things for developers to work on.

[eonfreon]

TL;DR the whole thread

Wow... just wow....
people wanting to nerf a quest that is supposed to be a challenge

and is supposed to be about teamwork

---------------

I wish this thread was... elsewhere... so I could verbalize correctly how I feel about people suggesting such things

Well said. A nerf is indeed the only end result from this discussion. No other options could possibly exist.

Well, I guess the way is split. Any time this is suggested I'll be on the side of "alternative means" being an option. It can involve as much "teamwork" as the "intended path".

To all those that said "Do I really have to do this EVERY time" I say thank you. Thank you for getting the message across so that when the Vale and Shroud came around, I didnt have to deal with reflagging every single time. I liked Vale, but I don't Have to do them again. I liked Desert. But I didn't enjoy having all them ducks in a row every time I wanted to do the Raid.

Glad some things change. I can't think of anything less I care about than what is said Elsewhere. It's a good thing such feelings can be verbalized though. We should be able to do so here as well as elsewhere after all.

[ButtersStotch]

Actaully not interested in any of the seals i have a bunch just sitting in my ingredients bag. It is asking for away around doing a quest because you dont like it so you can continue on the story line. So what happens when you do not like the alternative do you then come back and ask for even more alternate routes to as you put it an old out dated pack? That way eventually you will find something you like. never liked the idea of farm this many relics or anything for turn in. Specially here since it is already a part of the chain.

Point being there is no reason to change the quests their difficulty is appropriate for the level range and the xp you can 2500 xp before you even get to the water with no effort. SO there for not a waste either way. I do not see a reason to update there are other things for developers to work on.

Other things like.. new quests? Because that's what I'm asking for. New quests for Gianthold. And the Sands. And the Vale. And anything and everything that might have flagging mechanics. Because, yes, I do despise the Crucible. If I had an alternative, I wouldn't complain -- even (get ready to gasp) if I didn't like the alternative. Because then at least I have two paths to one destination.

Know why I like the Dreaming Dark island so much? Because it has an option. Because it has an -alternative.- I can get to the Dreaming Dark itself through -either- Mining for Ancient Secrets OR Raiding the Giants' Vault. Do I particularly enjoy the Vault? Not always, which is why it's nice to have an -option.- Do you suffer for that option being there? Does it detract from how you play the game or how you flag for the Dreaming Dark?

Also, Gianthold -is- old. It was released nearly five years ago. The level cap was -fourteen- at the time. The loot -is- outdated, as per other content and Cannith crafting. My problem with the flagging is not in the quest's XP payout or its 'difficulty for the level range.'

[Elation]

Other things like.. new quests? Because that's what I'm asking for. New quests for Gianthold. And the Sands. And the Vale. And anything and everything that might have flagging mechanics. Because, yes, I do despise the Crucible. If I had an alternative, I wouldn't complain -- even (get ready to gasp) if I didn't like the alternative. Because then at least I have two paths to one destination.

Know why I like the Dreaming Dark island so much? Because it has an option. Because it has an -alternative.- I can get to the Dreaming Dark itself through -either- Mining for Ancient Secrets OR Raiding the Giants' Vault. Do I particularly enjoy the Vault? Not always, which is why it's nice to have an -option.- Do you suffer for that option being there? Does it detract from how you play the game or how you flag for the Dreaming Dark?

Also, Gianthold -is- old. It was released nearly five years ago. The level cap was -fourteen- at the time. The loot -is- outdated, as per other content and Cannith crafting. My problem with the flagging is not in the quest's XP payout or its 'difficulty for the level range.'

So then saying your problem is you dont like it why complain about it at all then? Like you said you have other options. Comes back to the main point just dont run it and leave giant hold.

Also other things that are outside of Giant Hold and the sands they dont need more quests crammed in their areas.

[Gremmlynn]

Point being there is no reason to change the quests their difficulty is appropriate for the level range and the xp you can 2500 xp before you even get to the water with no effort. SO there for not a waste either way. I do not see a reason to update there are other things for developers to work on.It could be 25 million xp and it wouldn't make doing the quest any more entertaining. Yes there are other things for the devs to be working on...like new chains with flagging methods with options that make them entertaining to a broader group of players.

[eonfreon]

Other things like.. new quests? Because that's what I'm asking for. New quests for Gianthold. And the Sands. And the Vale. And anything and everything that might have flagging mechanics. Because, yes, I do despise the Crucible. If I had an alternative, I wouldn't complain -- even (get ready to gasp) if I didn't like the alternative. Because then at least I have two paths to one destination.

Know why I like the Dreaming Dark island so much? Because it has an option. Because it has an -alternative.- I can get to the Dreaming Dark itself through -either- Mining for Ancient Secrets OR Raiding the Giants' Vault. Do I particularly enjoy the Vault? Not always, which is why it's nice to have an -option.- Do you suffer for that option being there? Does it detract from how you play the game or how you flag for the Dreaming Dark?

Also, Gianthold -is- old. It was released nearly five years ago. The level cap was -fourteen- at the time. The loot -is- outdated, as per other content and Cannith crafting. My problem with the flagging is not in the quest's XP payout or its 'difficulty for the level range.'

Plus it's just one quest out of a series. It really is not an essential crux. It's just intended to be a part of a whole.

But as part of a whole it should appeal to as many as possible. Since you can't please all of the people all of the time, the idea is to please as much of the people as you can. And when they can't be pleased you don't force them to do it every time. Forced cooperation will only go so far. After a certain point alterantives should exist. Or the alternative becomes that some people will do the quest only as much as they have to. Which means they would rather not have to at all.

[ButtersStotch]

So then saying your problem is you dont like it why complain about it at all then? Like you said you have other options. Comes back to the main point just dont run it and leave giant hold.

Also other things that are outside of Giant Hold and the sands they dont need more quests crammed in their areas.

I'm complaining because I -enjoy- Tor. I -want to run- Tor. I don't care about the raid. I just want to do -Tor.-

To get to this -flagging- quest, I have to -flag.- To flag for the flag, I currently have to run Prison of the Planes (<3), Madstone Crater (eh), and the Crucible (</3), in addition to gathering turn-ins. I could very easily leave Gianthold and, for the time being, that's what I do when I've completed everything else. If I want to enjoy Tor, I do so on a character that was flagged long ago.

But while I've answered all of your questions, you haven't answered any of mine. Have you ever done the Dreaming Dark? Did you feel some strong oppression from having two separate (but possibly equally difficult) paths to the quest? Did it give your characters penalties as a result of someone choosing a different path than you?

I can suck it up and do the Crucible if I -really- want to do Tor on a new character. That's fine. Not integrating new options into Gianthold in the future? That's fine, too. I'll do exactly as you've suggested and -leave- when I get sick of it. But saying there should be no options in flagging added in for future quest chains? Saying that I shouldn't complain for not liking something? I find that to be rather silly. Especially since you're complaining about not liking my complaining..

[KillEveryone]

I love this quest.

It needs no changes at all.