Disruption of Greater Undead Bane? That is the question.

[Chauncey1]

Personally, I like disruption.

Uh...yeah...that should be OR, not OF.

Though that would be a sweet weapon.

[JeisonBlade]

not even a contest; disruption is basically like combining the extra damage of a greater undead bane with a vorpal effect. THe only thing GUB gets is an enhancement bonus, but thats hard to compare to an instant-kill/100 bane damage effect.

[redspecter23]

There might be some situations where GUB is better than disruption. If you have a low attack bonus for some reason and need the +hit from the GUB, maybe while leveling up a first lifer. In epic lord of blades on my monk I swap off of my smiter wraps and use GCB if I've just died and lost all my buffs and have a penalty and I want to keep power attack on.

[JeisonBlade]

There might be some situations where GUB is better than disruption. If you have a low attack bonus for some reason and need the +hit from the GUB, maybe while leveling up a first lifer. In epic lord of blades on my monk I swap off of my smiter wraps and use GCB if I've just died and lost all my buffs and have a penalty and I want to keep power attack on.

i understand your point but the smiters are doing extra damage from the vorpal proc even if they dont insta kill, your basically saying keep power attack on for damage, and swap out higher-damage wraps for higher-attack ones to keep it balanced...

it seems simpler to just turn off power attack and keep the higher damage wraps on. Then thats one less piece of gear to carry around.

[Riggs]

Assuming both weapons are +5;

One does 4d6, +100/20 swings, or +5 damage per hit (unless something is under 1000 hp but if you are running high levels or epics that can take a while)

The other is 3d6, but being a +9 weapon does +4 damage each and every hit.

The disruption seems to do an average of 4.5 per hit more damage. So it pretty much comes down to whether you are hitting on a 2 or not.

If you are, the disruption is better. If you are missing even some of the time - the greater bane means more hits = more overall damage.

[Chauncey1]

Assuming both weapons are +5;

One does 4d6, +100/20 swings, or +5 damage per hit (unless something is under 1000 hp but if you are running high levels or epics that can take a while)

The other is 3d6, but being a +9 weapon does +4 damage each and every hit.

The disruption seems to do an average of 4.5 per hit more damage. So it pretty much comes down to whether you are hitting on a 2 or not.

If you are, the disruption is better. If you are missing even some of the time - the greater bane means more hits = more overall damage.

Thanks!

[redspecter23]

i understand your point but the smiters are doing extra damage from the vorpal proc even if they dont insta kill, your basically saying keep power attack on for damage, and swap out higher-damage wraps for higher-attack ones to keep it balanced...

it seems simpler to just turn off power attack and keep the higher damage wraps on. Then thats one less piece of gear to carry around.

Sometimes it comes down to putting on the higher to hit wraps and also taking off power attack. Basically if you hit on a 2 then Disruption is the way to go. If your hit bonus is an issue for any reason, then you could be better off with GUB.

[Silverwren]

Either one.

Add Ghost Touch to it and you've got a great undead killer.

[MindCake]

Assuming both weapons are +5;

One does 4d6, +100/20 swings, or +5 damage per hit (unless something is under 1000 hp but if you are running high levels or epics that can take a while)

The other is 3d6, but being a +9 weapon does +4 damage each and every hit.

The disruption seems to do an average of 4.5 per hit more damage. So it pretty much comes down to whether you are hitting on a 2 or not.

If you are, the disruption is better. If you are missing even some of the time - the greater bane means more hits = more overall damage.
You can semi-easily craft holy of GUB, or holy/anarchic adamantine of GCB, but not the disruption/smiting versions.

[ainmosni]

as others have stated-

Depends on your to-hit.

[Postumus]

Assuming both weapons are +5;

One does 4d6, +100/20 swings, or +5 damage per hit (unless something is under 1000 hp but if you are running high levels or epics that can take a while)

The other is 3d6, but being a +9 weapon does +4 damage each and every hit.

The disruption seems to do an average of 4.5 per hit more damage. So it pretty much comes down to whether you are hitting on a 2 or not.

If you are, the disruption is better. If you are missing even some of the time - the greater bane means more hits = more overall damage.

No offense intended to Riggs, but I think it is a bit of an oversimplification to try to turn weapons with a lot of burst damage, especially insta-kill effects, into an 'average' number per swing as has been done above. 4d6 +(100/20) is not very accurate since the disruptor can essentially effectively do up to 1000 damage by instakilling an undead with 1000HPs or less.

In effect, the disruptor could be doing 4d6 + (100/20) on average or 4d6 + (1000/20) on average depending on the undead's CR level.

There's definitely a tipping point where the odds favor disruptors over GUB, but I've never tried to calculate what that number of hits/swings is.

My WAG is that if you can kill the undead in 5 hits or fewer on average, then the disruptor probably won't be noticeably more effective. If it takes you closer to 15 hits to kill it, then you should see mobs dying more quickly with a disruptor, because you have a 5% chance to insta-kill anything undead under 1000 HPs EVERY SWING.

Even missing on a 3, 4, or 5, depending on the CR level of the creature, you still might find the disruptor more effective if you're taking down the mob in fewer swings.

[jwdaniels]

If you can't hit the opponent, your damage is zero no matter what you swing. GUB is better if you need the to-hit bonus to connect, disruption is better if you hit on 2+.

[Snarglefrump]

In epic lord of blades on my monk I swap off of my smiter wraps and use GCB if I've just died and lost all my buffs and have a penalty and I want to keep power attack on.

For what it's worth, Smiting gives an undocumented +2 bonus to attack (http://ddowiki.com/page/Smiting) against constructs.

[Chilldude]

Fishing for a 20 can be a very effective means of DPS on a character whose primary concern is not melee damage. I had plans of having this high AC, melee, healing, and spell casting FVS. I figured that although the focus was spread thin, gear could help tilt the build in one direction or another in times of need. Ultimately I was less than satisfied by the results and rerolled, however, I found vorpal effects exceedingly useful.

With a non vorpal/smiting/distrupting weapon I could pound on something all day long, even if I had a matching bane effect. However, with a vorpal weapon I knew that in most cases the bad guy was going to die in 20 swings or less. So the numbers really became irrelevant, I was merely fishing for a 20.

I wouldn't recommend this style, I only mention this to support Postumus' point that you can't just look at the damage of a vorpal in terms of DPS, it would more aptly be considered in terms of swings per kill.

[Dragavon]

I made a +5 ghost touch flametouched iron GA of GUB for my warchanter for incorporeal undead. And a triple pos maul for everything else :D

[Arlathen]

I made a +5 ghost touch flametouched iron GA of GUB for my warchanter for incorporeal undead. And a triple pos maul for everything else :D

Hmm, nice weapons, but I'd go +5 Ghost Touch Flametouched Iron xxx of Greater Incorporeal Bane. Maximum effect against all incorporeal enemies, including Quori ones in IQ/DD/Lord of Blades.

Then have the Triple Pos for all other Fleshy undead.

Those two weapons would cover all undead pretty much, except Silver DR Breaking on Vampires. Instead of the Triple Pos, you could always 'settle' for a +5 Holy Burst Silver XXX of GUB.

[zwiebelring]

Greater Incorporeal Bane
I guess I missed something here: Can you craft GIB?

[Robai]

If you have Ghostly item (like Spectral Gloves or Mabar Cloak) then triple good maul is probably the best universal undead beater (except for zombies).

For various ghosts I loved to use this weapon while leveling (most ghosts do get damage from ice):

http://i44.tinypic.com/35hpsv9.jpg

[Arlathen]

I guess I missed something here: Can you craft GIB?

Definitly. Via Cannith Crafting. Level 82 Arcane, approximately. Although there is no lesser or standard bane recipe available.

[Astraghal]

I prefer Holy, Good Blast, Good Burst?, and Greater Disruption. Cheap and easy to make and a free Raise Dead clicky on the side. Comes in a weapon of your choice.*

*Handwraps not included. :)

[Arlathen]

I prefer Holy, Good Blast, Good Burst?, and Greater Disruption. Cheap and easy to make and a free Raise Dead clicky on the side. Comes in a weapon of your choice.*

*Handwraps not included. :)

Yeah... *Looks at stable of Lvl 20 Monk based characters* *Sigh*

[Nagantor]

On a Monk, simply use a triple pos quarterstaff. And guess what? With all that added damage, raise clicky and disruption effect, it's still a great weapon. You're not going to stun undead anyway.

[Chauncey1]

I prefer Holy, Good Blast, Good Burst?, and Greater Disruption. Cheap and easy to make and a free Raise Dead clicky on the side. Comes in a weapon of your choice.*

*Handwraps not included. :)


Whoa, whoa, WHOA!!!
Hooooold on just a gosh darn minute there!

"Greater Disruption"?

Does this wonderful thing actually exist? Or are ya just funnin us?

[Backley]

Whoa, whoa, WHOA!!!
Hooooold on just a gosh darn minute there!

"Greater Disruption"?

Does this wonderful thing actually exist? Or are ya just funnin us?

Yes, the 'Triple Positive Greensteel' others have mentioned here is the only source of Greater Disruption (6d6 pet hit, 100 or kill on vorpal).

Like this maul (http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~delallea/ddo/shroud/cgi-bin/shroud.cgi?item=item&weapon=maul&effects=holy,_good,__good,great_disr_&altar=3).

[Chauncey1]

Yes, the 'Triple Positive Greensteel' others have mentioned here is the only source of Greater Disruption (6d6 pet hit, 100 or kill on vorpal).

Like this maul (http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~delallea/ddo/shroud/cgi-bin/shroud.cgi?item=item&weapon=maul&effects=holy,_good,__good,great_disr_&altar=3).

Very very nice! TY!

[Riggs]

No offense intended to Riggs, but I think it is a bit of an oversimplification to try to turn weapons with a lot of burst damage, especially insta-kill effects, into an 'average' number per swing as has been done above. 4d6 +(100/20) is not very accurate since the disruptor can essentially effectively do up to 1000 damage by instakilling an undead with 1000HPs or less.

In effect, the disruptor could be doing 4d6 + (100/20) on average or 4d6 + (1000/20) on average depending on the undead's CR level.

There's definitely a tipping point where the odds favor disruptors over GUB, but I've never tried to calculate what that number of hits/swings is.

My WAG is that if you can kill the undead in 5 hits or fewer on average, then the disruptor probably won't be noticeably more effective. If it takes you closer to 15 hits to kill it, then you should see mobs dying more quickly with a disruptor, because you have a 5% chance to insta-kill anything undead under 1000 HPs EVERY SWING.

Even missing on a 3, 4, or 5, depending on the CR level of the creature, you still might find the disruptor more effective if you're taking down the mob in fewer swings.

Anything a level 20 geared out character is missing on more than a 1 is probably an epic monster with 1000s of hit points.

If you are missing something on a 1-5 - that is 25% less overall damage you are doing - for the sake of 100 damage every 20 swings.

You can argue with the math monsters in dps threads if you want - but yes if you get 100 damage only every 20 swings that works out to almost exactly 5 damage per hit.

If you are fighting things with under 1000 hp that you can easily hit - it wont really matter much.

However it is also a lot easier to craft, or even find a slightly lesser set of unbound crafted weapons on an adamantine of (x) + bane or greater bane than it is to wait the years it can take to loot a +5 adamantine smiter in the weapon of your choice.

And it is something with a good ac - like say the lord of blades or epic marut - then addy/holy/gcb or anarchic/gcb will do more damage overall because you will be hitting more - and you cannot 'smite' red names when they get under 1000 hp.

[Astraghal]

Whoa, whoa, WHOA!!!
Hooooold on just a gosh darn minute there!

"Greater Disruption"?

Does this wonderful thing actually exist? Or are ya just funnin us?

You can make a Mournlode weapon in the Cannith Challenge pack. That's got Righteous, Greater Undead Bane, Brilliance and Radiant Blast. They are really easy to make too.

[EllisDee37]

First and foremost, against undead, triple positive is king. Every melee should at very least put one at the end of their to-do list. (Fortunately it doesn't take a full 5 LDS to make.) The question then becomes, what should you be looking for as an interim undead beater while working on your triple positive?

Assume hit on a 2, and 1 crit for burst effects only. (Ignoring destruction, et al.)

Mauls (vs undead)

19*bonus + 988....Triple Positive
19*bonus + 918....Epic Mournlode Tier I
19*bonus + 622.....+5 Holy Burst of Greater Undead Bane
19*bonus + 561.....+5 Disruption
19*bonus + 485.....+4 Holy of Undead Bane

*Mournlode damage includes double damage from light. I also included the effective +2 enhancement bonus from righteousness even though it is currently bugged and not working. Mentally subtract 38 for the actual damage number without righteousness.

Mournlode gets impressively close to a triple positive, and it's quite easy to grind out a tier I epic. A few good days worth of free tokens should be sufficient. Tier III adds a couple epic augment slots and bumps the enhancement bonus from +5 to +6, which you can easily do without. Tier III also adds blinding flash, but to quote wiki: "This effect is unlikely to land on mid-high level monsters due to its very low DC." The big downside to the mournlode option is that it's ML20, compared to ML12 on the triple positive.

The actual math behind the numbers above:

Triple Positive
2d6 holy, 1d6 good, 6d6+5 disruption per hit, 8d6 burst on crits
Base damage: +5 weapon with 9 base damage = 14 + damage bonus
On-hit effects: 9d6+5 = 36.5
Crit effects: 8d6 = 28

Damage after 20 rolls
19*(14+bonus) + 19*36.5 + 1*28
19*bonus + 266 + 693.5 + 28
19*bonus + 987.5


Epic Mournlode Tier I
2 righteous, 3d6 bane, 2d6 light per hit, 4d10 light burst on crits, 7.65 light blast per hit
Base damage: +11 weapon (+5 base +2 righteous +4 bane) with 11 base damage = 22 + damage bonus
On-hit effects: 3d6 + 2d6 + 7.65 = 25.15
Crit effects: 4d10 = 22

Damage after 20 rolls
19*(22+bonus) + 19*25.15 + 1*22
19*bonus + 418 + 477.85 + 22
19*bonus + 917.85


+5 Holy Burst of Greater Bane
2d6 holy and 3d6 greater bane per hit, 4d6 burst on crits
Base damage: +9 weapon (+5 base +4 bane) with 5.5 base damage = 14.5 + damage bonus
On-hit effects: 5d6 = 17.5
Crit effects: 4d6 = 14

Damage after 20 rolls
19*(14.5+bonus) + 19*17.5 + 1*14
19*bonus + 275.5 + 332.5 + 14
19*bonus + 622


+5 Disruption
4d6+5 Disruption per hit
Base damage: +5 weapon with 5.5 base damage = 10.5 + damage bonus
On-hit effects: 4d6 + 5 = 19

Damage after 20 rolls
19*(10.5+bonus) + 19*19
19*bonus + 199.5 + 361
19*bonus + 560.5


+4 Holy of Bane
2d6 holy and 2d6 bane per hit
Base damage: +6 weapon (+4 base +2 bane) with 5.5 base damage = 11.5 + damage bonus
On-hit effects: 4d6 = 14

Damage after 20 rolls
19*(11.5+bonus) + 19*14
19*bonus + 218.5 + 266
19*bonus + 484.5


You need the following ingredients to craft any epic tier I Mournlode weapon: (Maul, warhammer, etc...)

600 Orthon Metal Scraps (maybe 3 decent runs of Short Cuts)
600 Crystallized Magma Shards (~4 farming runs of Time Is Money if focused on parts/minute, or 1-2 runs if focused on parts/run)
600 Necromantic Charms (probably 4-6 decent runs of The Disruptor)

The best part of this is that the three challenges that give the three parts needed are some of the easiest challenges there are. If you own the pack or are vip, a few practice runs on each and you can easily solo the parts you need. If you need to rely on the free daily tokens -- 5/day on one toon and 1/day on the rest of your alts -- you can pug them all fairly easily. Note that while the free daily tokens are BtC, the parts themselves are BtA so you can pool your resources.

The Magma Shards are particularly suited to free token farming since you can buy more time during the challenge to net you more parts per run.