Why hound runs fail

[BoBach]

Hi,

why always the hound raids fail?

1.) Most of the guys dont know the way to the raid entrance
2.) There is at least always one guy in party that is griefing the run
3.) It takes 60min+ to reach the entrance, so nobody has ship buffs in raid
4.) In front of the entrance the party recognizes that they have no tank !
5.) In front of the entrance the party recognizes that nobody can buff the puppies
6.) Even with all the hassle to reach entrance the leader choses hard instead of normal
7.) and many more ...

Please read ddowiki before joining a run, if you dont know the raid.

Regards Bo

[Aurora1979]

I havent run hond of vod in.... 18 months, maybe 2 years.

Got fed up with the walk to the quest and the enevitable mess it would become.

"Like watching a bunch of retards trying to **** a doorknob"

Takes an hour to get there and 3 mins to complete the quest.

[butlerfamilywa]

I almost always wind up tanking on Hound, and to be honest... I'm usually the last one standing, holding beholders, reavers, and all the hounds at the same time.

I honestly find the reason why most hound runs fail to be the fact that beholders get into the center and dispel the puppies. Keeping the BEHOLDERS *#1 problem* out of the center would cause 90% of the failed runs to complete.

[Yunico]

by the time the raid start, some people are so eager to kill something that at least 1 doggie always gets killed, literally always in my experience.

[twiliteslayer02]

Lack of good leadership coupled with less than optimal IQ of pug interlopers makes for the fail card every time.

[MysticElaine]

It really wouldn't be that bad if there was communication and leadership. If someone who knows the way waits for those who don't to lead them or if the whole group waits to go together, then there is that problem solved. Just because someone doesn't know the way, doesn't mean they don't know the quest (like maybe they just learned it but still haven't done it enough to know how to get there). If you take the time to explain just a few simple things or give out some reminders before starting, it should go smoothly.

I say this because I had a leader who took a bunch of newbies to teach them and we completed it just fine. He even let the newbies do the important jobs so that they learned how to. Of course there were some ppl in the group that had done it before, but they were there for guidance. And yes, we did the first run on Normal, but then we did it on hard with no problems as well.

So, imo, the number one reason hound should fail is due to lack of communication, leadership, and willingness to work together.

[Purgatory]

There is only 1 reason a hound run fails that is becuase the guy with the star is bigger idiot then rest of the people that he blindly clicked on the lfm for the group with the only requirement is they are capable of clicking on the lfm.

IF you want to complete the hound there is one sure fire way of doing it

know what ur doing, lead it, and dont accept idiots (if you cant spot a idiot 9 out 10 times then take a long look in a mirror and you will know what one looks like)

If you cant do either of those dont expect to complete it.

[MsEricka]

I've found the cause for most failures is death.

Seriously though, most people don't understand Hound for some reason.

[FuzzyDuck81]

The main reason i've noticed for it is that more people are running it on hard since they introduced that new gear (the thaarak wraps rock hard) & while the "run around outside" tactic is fine on normal, it doesnt work very often on hard so you need to use the barricade tactic.. and people never pay attention when you try to explain it.

[protokon]

Hi,

why always the hound raids fail?

3.) It takes 60min+ to reach the entrance, so nobody has ship buffs in raid


This stuck out to me. ship buffs are NOT needed for this raid. If your blaming your failure because you didn't have ship buffs...something else is wrong.

If anything, the group fell apart because they spent 2 hours trying to re-clear to the raid, after every 15 minutes people wanted to recall and "top off".

It's a 5 minute raid. If you lose your ship buffs before you get there, too bad...

I'm sick of pugs wasting my time (as well as other people in the group's time) always wanting to hold the group up and "rebuff". I have started to warn people if they recall while clearing any raid that requires getting to (hound, lord of blades, master artificer) for buffs, they will be ejected from the group and replaced.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way either.

[mullmachine]

This stuck out to me. ship buffs are NOT needed for this raid. If your blaming your failure because you didn't have ship buffs...something else is wrong.

If anything, the group fell apart because they spent 2 hours trying to re-clear to the raid, after every 15 minutes people wanted to recall and "top off".

It's a 5 minute raid. If you lose your ship buffs before you get there, too bad...

I'm sick of pugs wasting my time (as well as other people in the group's time) always wanting to hold the group up and "rebuff". I have started to warn people if they recall while clearing any raid that requires getting to (hound, lord of blades, master artificer) for buffs, they will be ejected from the group and replaced.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way either.

Agreed.. People have become too reliant on ship buffs, even when they dont have a ship of their own :P

[Rodasch]

The reason most hound runs fail is simple:

People have forgotten (or never learned) WHY they were doing certain things in the raid, and just continue doing the same "tactic" that "always works" without understanding why it worked or how to adapt it when something changes.

The #1 example, and majority cause of wipes is "kill team in east!". Let me explain.

1.) In hound, monsters spawn in the outer ring and patrol around the circle until they find line of sight to a nearby opponent to attack. This means that if they pass by one of the crossroads hallways and see your tank, your pup/tank healers, or random other player within aggro radius, they will go to the center and attack.

2.) The longest hallway is the east-west hallway.

3.) Original strategy of "Kill team in east!" also involves all center folks (tank, charmer, buffer, healers) standing in the east side of center, partially in the eastern hall. This prevents sight-aggro from west, north, and south hallways, and forces all monsters to go to center through EAST, where the kill team will intercept. This allows for simple patrols to run around and kill beholders before they get to east team and dispel all the kill team and cc and what not.

4.) Today, the people who "tank" the center or are buffing, charming, healing, whatever, don't know about this and tend to run straight in and do all their business in the north end of center or south end, and kill team is not adjusting to cover the new aggro avenues.

5.) Tanking Xyzzy in north or south of center is increasing your odds of wipe dramatically. Healers, charmers, buffers, etc standing in view of north-south hallway are also increasing odds of wipe dramatically.

6.) Center team must pick east or west and stick to that side, kill team must set up in outer ring on same side as center team or you will probably wipe (at least on hard or elite, normal is recoverable usually).

That's it. 99% of hound wipes come down to exactly this. If you don't believe me, pay extra special attention next time you're in one and look for these things.

[Missing_Minds]

I've found the cause for most failures is death.

Seriously though, most people don't understand Hound for some reason.

Von: Wait here. We'll be back.
Titan: Wait here and stay alive.
DQ: Stand here, swing weapons.
Reaver: wait here.
Vision: wait 5 seconds, now kill.
Shroud: follow the group and kill what they kill.

Hound: run the outside, do not kill puppies but kill anything else. Don't pick up that shiny that dropped. Now...
a) continue to run laps killing anything you see other than puppies. Call out if you see a shiny drop. Again don't pick it up.
b) go to the inside and kill anything that comes in. Do NOT to running for the healers. (run to healers any way)

See a pattern? Suddenly people have to think. :)

[Elaril]

Hound = easiest raid in the game. For peete's sake, all you have to do is push two buttons as a healer buff as a bard and charm dogs and kill stuff as a melee/arcane. It's not exactly the most strategically difficult raid or anything. 100 percent of the failed runs i've been in are because someone didnt hold up to their end of the bargain.

[Vint]

Hi,

why always the hound raids fail?

1.) Most of the guys dont know the way to the raid entrance
2.) There is at least always one guy in party that is griefing the run
3.) It takes 60min+ to reach the entrance, so nobody has ship buffs in raid
4.) In front of the entrance the party recognizes that they have no tank !
5.) In front of the entrance the party recognizes that nobody can buff the puppies
6.) Even with all the hassle to reach entrance the leader choses hard instead of normal
7.) and many more ...

Please read ddowiki before joining a run, if you dont know the raid.

Regards Bo

If you could please dont make fun of puggers. There are many people on these forums that stick up for even the biggest idiots.

BTW, Dont expect puggers to look at wiki. They are to busy wipping parties in game to read these forums or wiki to improve their own knowledge of the game. It is easier to blame the party leader for taking idiots I guess.

[Brennie]

I find that all to often its #8,

#8, After running to quest entrance, shrining, and entering the quest, a critical raid member (The only person who has loaded buffs for puppies/Sphere/Main Tank/Healer) says something along the lines of "oops, sorry guys, looks like I still have an hour or two left on my timer".

[AMDarkwolf]

HoX fails for one reason, and one reason only.(Assuming all members got INTO the raid of course)

And that's just simply that people do - not - listen.(Or to look at it a different way, expect the other 11 ppl to 'take up their slack')

Ive hosted this raid, and 'pugged' it so many times, and about 1/4 of those 'attempts' succeed (unless its a pre-made group) and the ONLY reason it fails is just because of the above. Its never because someone don't have the buffs, its never because 'we don't have a charmer' (Anyone with a epic rodrics wand can charm), its not because for lack of heals, its not because the 'tank wuz squishy'

It really is a 'SIMPLE' task, but when you get told 'Please do not kill the puppies!' and this translates into 'KILL PUPPIES RAWR, when you are told 'Leave the stones for the charmer to grab' and its translated into 'SHINIES = MONIES, TAKE TAKE, and HOARD' (or if the charmer, 'Someone will bring u the stones, just stand in center and do nothing till your given the stones), and so on.

Its just that. Ive seen people get told, specifically, over chat, over voice, multiple times, 'DO NOT DO -insert action here-!" people WILL DO IT.

So heres a challenge for everyone reading this thread. The next time you go into a hox, make it your OWN personal challenge to LISTEN to what the leader says, to DO what the leader says, and to DO your PART. Hox is a VERY EASY raid, as in elite should (And often IS with a group who LISTENS) be finished with 0 deaths and in less than 15 min.

If your told to run H method, don't cross the north portal EVER. NEVER cross the south portal. EVER. Go Left/Right, Up to top, get stone, go down to south, grab stone, go back up to mid, and into center. Done. Each group should have 2 stones. Charmer charms 2 pups, then accepts trade and takes the other 2 stones.

Healers switch between pups keeping them up. Its not hard.

Buffer.. ya u got that.. buffs the pups.

Tank.. after pups charmed, your prob done from this point, your job is now to help defend the center. Watch for beholders.

Everyone else? Including 'buffers', Same as above, your job is to watch for beholders and defend the center. See a beholder? GET IT, don't wah wah, cry zomg beholder. BUT KILL IT. don't let it get anywhere near middle. If your a caster, u should be able to pewpew it with one shot. By this time, if you have done your job right, and pup's were buffed appropriately(And healed) momma should be about ready to take down. This will be less than 6 min into the raid.

[Phemt81]

Hi,

why always the hound raids fail?

1.) Most of the guys dont know the way to the raid entrance
2.) There is at least always one guy in party that is griefing the run
3.) It takes 60min+ to reach the entrance, so nobody has ship buffs in raid
4.) In front of the entrance the party recognizes that they have no tank !
5.) In front of the entrance the party recognizes that nobody can buff the puppies
6.) Even with all the hassle to reach entrance the leader choses hard instead of normal
7.) and...

7) Players do not stick together in Subterrane
8) Players do not stick together in Subterrane
9) Players do not stick together in Subterrane
10) Players do not stick together in Subterrane

[butlerfamilywa]

If you believe that the people who you usually run hound with don't know the Sub-T well enough to get to the hound raid on their own, then do what I did for my guild awhile back.

Run Sub-T Explorers / Slayers / Learning runs.

There is no reason ANYONE cannot get the runes in the Sub-T.

"Oh, got an Int Rune over here" says the Cleric
"Ok, so throw on a +6 Int item and get it." is the Party Leaders response.

"But, I have an 8 base Int...." You hear the Cleric mumble...

and so on.

An 8 base Int, +2 Int Tome, and a +6 Int Item = 16 Intel. If you got ship buffs on top of that, your Intel hits 18.

You only need a 14 to hit the runes in the Sub-T (For both Int and Wis).

Anyways, basically what I'm saying is this....


If you believe that people don't know the way to the raids (HoX/VoD), then lead some training runs, not for the raid itself, but just on how to get there.

And if you've never gotten all the explorers in the Sub-T... you're missing out on the Eye Tyrant Counsel, the Acid River, and the Mushroom rings... it's actually great fun down there.. take the time to enjoy it and don't let the living spells at the very beginning disparage you.. thats the only place they reside.

[AMDarkwolf]

its not that people get lost. I can make that run 15 times in 20min, trying to get people to the quest. They dont' get lost, since they are following me.


its IN the quest, people expect that the other 11 members of said party, will 'carry them though' so they don't bother to listen, ignore all instructions, and just do 'whatever cuz these guys will get it done'

To everyone reading this, regardless of what server your on, next time u go on a hox, ask yourself 'How can I help this succeed' And you will find the answer is 'Listen to instructions, do what your told' and TRA-LA quest done, everyone wins.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Takes an hour to get there.


Lack of good leadership


It really wouldn't be that bad if there was communication and leadership.

.


There is only 1 reason a hound run fails that is becuase the guy with the star is bigger idiot then rest of the people



.




"people never pay attention when you try to explain it.


The reason most hound runs fail is simple:



.






See a pattern? Suddenly people have to think. :)

LEADERSHIP!
TEAMWORK!

Time to get to quest, 7 minutes MAX,

Time to first message when in raid 5 minutes.

NORM, HARD, LEET, same tactic still works fine.

Only 1 failure since update 11, (that was on norm:eek::eek:), WHY? lack of TEAMWORK.

You need a decent intim that is generating enough of a presence when running into the middle to get all of dogs attention, then the intim itself does what it's supposed to do.
Use at least one fog clickie, let ONE person get stones and the rest keep hunting!


The image below was made 3 years ago! It is the BEST way to complete. Don't believe me? My intim is on timer, we did a 6 minute HoX hard last night, Ill run one tonight with Recap if you need a lesson!

Cant follow orders? Dont join!
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm299/chefricochet/Maps%20Raid/318be3d1.jpg?t=1279131749

[AMDarkwolf]

Cant follow orders? Dont join!
Dude, I think this alone sums it all up. Without this, NOTHING else will matter.

[countfitz]

Everyone's refusal to, like I did, do it 20 times on normal to get your loot, instead of hard and elite for a better chance at getting, I mean, failing it.

Listening to a stupid party leader (my last fail, the leader typed "in middle" two which I and a good portion of the group understood to mean "we're near the end, get to the middle" which was wrong).

Not realizing that once the beholders are up spells don't work, and they need to be killed immediately. Also, by this point most parties are no longer circling together, but are so spread out they have to face each enemy individually.

[Brennie]

Cant follow orders? Dont join!

... Is that an order :D?

[DeltaBravo]

I know this sounds harsh, but if you get the group together yourself, and play a good leader = waiting for people who dont know the way and show it to em, explains in good details whats going to happen and what not to do, then it all goes alot smoother.
Not saying that some people dont listen, but you can 90% of the time spot theese people while you are just running down there. next time you dont have to bring theese guys.

another option is to take people from guilds you know will listen, and then take maybe 1-2 people you dont know. its alot faster to learn a few new people a raid then to try learn a full raid group a new raid.

Good leader ship will get you far.

[sirgog]

This stuck out to me. ship buffs are NOT needed for this raid. If your blaming your failure because you didn't have ship buffs...something else is wrong.

If anything, the group fell apart because they spent 2 hours trying to re-clear to the raid, after every 15 minutes people wanted to recall and "top off".

It's a 5 minute raid. If you lose your ship buffs before you get there, too bad...

I'm sick of pugs wasting my time (as well as other people in the group's time) always wanting to hold the group up and "rebuff". I have started to warn people if they recall while clearing any raid that requires getting to (hound, lord of blades, master artificer) for buffs, they will be ejected from the group and replaced.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way either.

Only time ship buffs are important in HoX is if you are using a 'chew toy' with Intimidate and an AC that is in the 70s (n/h) or 80s (e) and your raid composition is healing-light (say you have a Bard and an Artificer for healing and that is all). The extra 3-5 AC makes the raid far easier in that setup.

But most groups won't attempt the raid without at least one person that can cast Mass Heal, so this seldom comes up anyway.

[werk]

I believe there are two reasons that hound runs fail:

1. Healers let charmed pups die/non-charmed pups are killed.
2. Everyone aside from the healers are too weak and unable to kill trash mobs.

If you can't get to the raid, have ineffective leadership, or any sort of communication disconnect, the above are more likely to happen. While valid complaints, they are not the actual cause of failure, merely contributing factors.

[Purgatory]

I know this sounds harsh, but if you get the group together yourself, and play a good leader = waiting for people who dont know the way and show it to em, explains in good details whats going to happen and what not to do, then it all goes alot smoother.
Not saying that some people dont listen, but you can 90% of the time spot theese people while you are just running down there. next time you dont have to bring theese guys.

another option is to take people from guilds you know will listen, and then take maybe 1-2 people you dont know. its alot faster to learn a few new people a raid then to try learn a full raid group a new raid.

Good leader ship will get you far.

Thats not harsh its the trueth...

It's the leader job to put a hound together with capable players.... yes this means booting/ not accepting people that clearly unable to listen and follow direction...

It all starts with the leader it all ends with the leader...

If the leader puts together a group with no effort or care then that is the type of group he will get alot players that will put no effort or care into the task at hand.

pug hounds dont fail because of bad players they fail because bad leader accepted bad players into his party.

[cwfergtx]

Hi,

why always the hound raids fail?

1.) Most of the guys dont know the way to the raid entrance
2.) There is at least always one guy in party that is griefing the run
3.) It takes 60min+ to reach the entrance, so nobody has ship buffs in raid
4.) In front of the entrance the party recognizes that they have no tank !
5.) In front of the entrance the party recognizes that nobody can buff the puppies
6.) Even with all the hassle to reach entrance the leader choses hard instead of normal
7.) and many more ...

Please read ddowiki before joining a run, if you dont know the raid.

Regards Bo

Tank not knowing which hallway to take the Momma dog to. Too many times it has been to the South hallway where they go in.

Joined an lfm last night for elite, got a tell from the leader can you tank. I said sure I have my clickies. Then two more people joined and he asked them if they could tank. One said yes but only had a clickie with 3 charges. He had (447) 130 less HP than me (577) and 5 less clickies then me (i had 2 items 3/5 for solid fog). Then the waiting game started for healers. After 40 minutes I left and did something else. Checked with the tank later and they had failed, he stated he did not have enough fogs and the healers that they had taken did not have very much SP and no scrolls used.

[royboy]

More than one way to skin a Hound.
Hound may be toughest Raid in game, to pug.
Everyone in this raid is important.
One weak link and its all downhill.

Docsin ~ Disciples of Sin
Leader, of a 3 minute Hound.

[Yetzederixx]

It all comes down to people who listen. I've gone down with a ton of noobs and succeeded, and wiped with a group of geared up half-wits who don't. Frankly I find the noob parties easier, because once you get them to understand how important following directions is, what their parts are, they are not only more willing to do so but are more likely to do it happily. I like this raid because everyone is ultimately important and it's not a total pikefest.