Another Update without Ranger Luv?

[noinfo]

Not exactly sure the last time Rangers got anything except the shaft (pun intended)

Every single melee class has recieved some upgrade since U11 except Rangers

1. Fighters and Pallies got their defensive PRE upgraded
2. Barbs and other classes with damage boost got it upgraded.
3. Monks got their stances upgraded and alchemical wraps that stack with TOD rings (yes I know wraps are buggy).

Apparently Rangers are king of the game since the last change to them was a nerf that removed both their melee alacrity AND typed their ac bonus to shield.

Yes I saw and approved of what appears to be a great revision of the enhancements for the whole system that will be coming sometime in the next year but seriously give us something now.

I have asked for this before and I still believe its needed: give rangers shield of whirling steel the same DR benefit as monk earth stance. It seems a simple change but one that strengthens a class that has limited HP and often in situations where their AC is not going to be high enough to matter for the shield bonus to be irrelivant (and its half the pre)

Tempest 1 = 5%
Tempest 2 = 10%
Tempest 3 = 15%

It will not make rangers tanks (less hp)
It will add to their survivablilty in a game that is more about HP and DPS than anything else.

Yes I know the devs want to be focusing on their new project but a small pre improvement for a class that has been completely ignored is certainly due. Oh and also take a look at the CE spell point thread, something else that should make it into U13.

[Vormaerin]

Don't expect any enhancement changes until the bathwater is thrown out in the expansion.

Speaking of which, we already know that Tempest is getting additional abilities from the Dervish class, so there's obviously something going on there.

[QuantumFX]

Based on the information in the Let’s Talk: Enhancements thread Tempest Rangers will see some love in the expansion pack. They’re pulling stuff from the Dervish PrC that should add some nice DPS punch to the class.

[LeLoric]

Not a huge boost to rangers but the hold animal change is mildly useful.

It now works on vermin and magical beasts and unintelligent ones get no saving throw.

The last part is the key. Scorps/Most spiders now get a 15 sp 45 second hold with no recurring save. Not widespread useful but it still has some mild uses.

I would love to see some changes to the spell dc's of ranger spells and add entangle into the game. Snare entangle and spike growth with useable dc's along with hold animal would make for a moderate cc package.

[grodon9999]

Not exactly sure the last time Rangers got anything except the shaft (pun intended)

Every single melee class has recieved some upgrade since U11 except Rangers

1. Fighters and Pallies got their defensive PRE upgraded
2. Barbs and other classes with damage boost got it upgraded.
3. Monks got their stances upgraded and alchemical wraps that stack with TOD rings (yes I know wraps are buggy).

Apparently Rangers are king of the game since the last change to them was a nerf that removed both their melee alacrity AND typed their ac bonus to shield.

Yes I saw and approved of what appears to be a great revision of the enhancements for the whole system that will be coming sometime in the next year but seriously give us something now.

I have asked for this before and I still believe its needed: give rangers shield of whirling steel the same DR benefit as monk earth stance. It seems a simple change but one that strengthens a class that has limited HP and often in situations where their AC is not going to be high enough to matter for the shield bonus to be irrelivant (and its half the pre)

Tempest 1 = 5%
Tempest 2 = 10%
Tempest 3 = 15%

It will not make rangers tanks (less hp)
It will add to their survivablilty in a game that is more about HP and DPS than anything else.

Yes I know the devs want to be focusing on their new project but a small pre improvement for a class that has been completely ignored is certainly due. Oh and also take a look at the CE spell point thread, something else that should make it into U13.


I'd go with 5 -10 - 20% - considering how ridiculously OP earth stance is that is FAR from it. I'd also change the SOWS AC bonus to un-typed.

Never would I have suggested this if it weren't for the obscene amount of OP monk changes in the last update.

The offensive stuff leaked in the ENH thread looks promising, fingers are crossed.

[Qhualor]

Based on the information in the Let’s Talk: Enhancements thread Tempest Rangers will see some love in the expansion pack. They’re pulling stuff from the Dervish PrC that should add some nice DPS punch to the class.

sweet! finally some ranger wuv.

[LeLoric]

One thing I would like to see for rangers is better spells at higher levels. 3rd and 4th level spells for rangers are blah. This would help the pure or heavy rangers without giving too much to splashes.

Some level 3 or 4 ideas.

Foebane:

Enhance this spell to not overwrite effects like the pnp version but instead have it give favored bane to your existing weapons +2 enh and 2d6 bane dmg to any of your favored enemies. Doesnt stack with any bane effects already on the weapon.

Tiger's might:

Ram's might but also with 5% double strike. Doesn't stack with rams.

Air mantle:

Gives a miss chance against ranged as well as immunity to cloud/fog effects.

Wounds be gone (I suck at naming things):

small self only heal over time. ~5 dmg every 2 seconds for say maybe a minute. (more than 5 maybe but with heal amp may get too strong)

[Hobgoblin]

Heartstrike:

Enhance this spell to not overwrite effects like the pnp version but instead have it give favored bane to your existing weapons +2 enh and 2d6 bane dmg to any of your favored enemies. Doesnt stack with any bane effects already on the weapon.

Tiger's ferocity:

Ram's might but also with 5% double strike. Doesn't stack with rams.

Ride the winds:

Gives a miss chance against ranged as well as immunity to cloud/fog effects.

minor regeneration:

small self only heal over time. ~5 dmg every 2 seconds for say maybe a minute. (more than 5 maybe but with heal amp may get too strong)

in red for names.

keep it at 5 for rangers - give regeneration and greater regen to druids. have it do 10ish for regen, and 15 for greater as well as auto removing 1 pt or perhaps all stat damage per tick

hob

[EustaceTrevelyan]

sweet! finally some ranger wuv.

Sweet Ranger Wuv would be a good indie band name;)

[LeLoric]

in red for names.

keep it at 5 for rangers - give regeneration and greater regen to druids. have it do 10ish for regen, and 15 for greater as well as auto removing 1 pt or perhaps all stat damage per tick

hob

Foebane is an actual spell so doesn't need shanged most likely but the other's are good.

[EpiKagEMO]

i believe ranger should be getting their double strikes back only on tempest II

[noinfo]

I'd go with 5 -10 - 20% - considering how ridiculously OP earth stance is that is FAR from it. I'd also change the SOWS AC bonus to un-typed.

Never would I have suggested this if it weren't for the obscene amount of OP monk changes in the last update.

The offensive stuff leaked in the ENH thread looks promising, fingers are crossed.

The overall upcoming stuff looks fantastic and I am glad they combined the Dervish stuff in there (I made a suggestion a year or 2 ago with something similar based around weapon finesse or ranger I think)

The problem is that we have no idea when its happening and some love now is long overdue so to all those saying to wait, sorry I have waited and waited and waited, this change is not drastic, and certainly not OP. 20% for tier 3 would not bother me either since its pretty lackluster all round.

[bbqzor]

2. Barbs and other classes with damage boost got it upgraded.
1) TR your ranger into a human or half elf.
2) Combine Versatility Damage Boost with Manyshot.
3) ????
4) Profit.

You can have the same boost everyone else got if you want it. I'm only pointing this out because all too frequently posts are made comparing some things but not others. The reality is, the changes are more broadly applicable than it may seem, and rarely does a class really get nothing. It may not get something directly, or it may not get something an individual wants or was looking for, but most of the time indirect benefits apply at a minimum.

Additionally, as others have said, direct changes are coming with the two biggest ones IMO already cited: the hold animal and enhancement ones. More than just a change to the current enhancements, the overhaul will do wonders for Rangers specifically, with a reduction or elimination of feat requirements for Tempest which is possibly the steepest opportunity cost PRE there is. If anything, Rangers will get the most benefit from this.

Then there's also the new items. The Epic Earth Bow from the Cannith Challenges is very easy to get and generally performs extremely well relative to most other options, in many cases being the best choice or close to it. And in U13 the blunt typed bow is coming which covers another huge gap for Manyshot. Even for Tempests, Manyshot is very powerful and discarding bows because you're not an Arcane Archer is a mistake, while for Arcane Archers the boost is even more noticeable.

I don't really think saying Rangers have gotten nothing has much of a foundation. They didn't get more melee haste, which is what you maybe were looking for, but they certainly have some things coming in.

[noinfo]

I don't really think saying Rangers have gotten nothing has much of a foundation. They didn't get more melee haste, which is what you maybe were looking for, but they certainly have some things coming in.

1. Link to where I suggest anything regarding melee haste? There was a very good mechanical reason for why melee alacrity was removed and doublestrike introduced. The side effect was a net nerf to Tempest in particular, which I pointed out as the last time (along with the typing of the shield bonus) any changes were made to rangers. No one expects rangers to go to the top of the dps ladder though should be good on FE, what we do want is something that compares to the other enhancements offered as part of a PRE.

2. Let me spell it out for you:
Tempest gives bonus to offhand (and small doublestrike at tier 3) AND typed AC and that is all.

3. Most of us who follow the forums know there is going to be an enhancement change down the track and the mock up ranger one looks very good, no one will argue that. As a result I am not asking for a huge change that would require thought as to ballancing, instead I looked at the current trend in PRE and enhancements with SD/DOS and monk stances where the defensive part of theirs class enhancments included a %dr bonus based on using a shield in the case of the first 2 and stance based on monk. Tempest supposedly gains a shield bonus (formerly untyped before nerf) and it would be reasonable for them to gain a similar bonus as a percentage reduction while dual wielding. This is not a major change or game breaking change but would be something to help float a class until the big revamp happens.

[noinfo]

1) TR your ranger into a elf or half elf Kensai 2/3 AA. <-Corrected for you since you seem focused on ranged (some people are confused as to the origin of the name I suppose)
2) Combine Haste and Powersuge with Manyshot.
3) ????
4) Profit.

Fixed it for you.

[Bacab]

Ok I am a bit curious...

Why did Tempest 1 have to lose the Alaclarity?

I have never played a Ranger (atleast not to end game). SO I really wonder what is needed.

I have partied with Grodon (aka BigJunk) a long time ago and he pulled his weight, but I felt it was the player behind the keyboard more than anything.

I have also played with DEX based finesse builds and um...my mom said if you can't say anything nice...don't say anything at all.

But for real...why can't Tempest keep its 10% bonus speed? I am not a coder or anything, so if its a memory/computer issue...just say that.

One other thing that suprises me...no one mentioned rangers lack Toughness Enhancements. Please give them Toughness Enhancements.

The other thing...to me (this is just opinion) there seems to be almost no reason to go past level 6 or 11 maybe 12 ranger.

6 for Manyshot and Tempest 1. 11 for the next tier of dual-wield. I guess if you go to 11, why not go to 12. I understand maybe some spells or other things could be a good reason to level further. But for the most part, it seems to be more "end-game viable" a deep splash of something else seems to be beneficial to ranger. Like some Fighter (Kensai I and II) or Barbarian (Frenzy Berserker) levels.

Am I way off base?

PS... I have heard this in party chat a lot..."My exploiter was super fun to level from level 1-19...then I started raiding and saw how gimped it was compared to other DPSers".

[Brennie]

@OP -

Interesting suggestions. I've been lobbying for Ranger tweaks for a while now, but tanking ability is one aspect I've never really thought about as a potential buff. it certainly makes sense with the barkskin/dex enhancements/tempest buffs and requirements all geared towards AC. Which is rather... annoying, since a pure Ranger would have a very hard time reaching a manageable AC (And would need to make serious sacrifices to do so - High dex, 13 int, combat expertise, leaving less feats and lower strength).

A while ago i made THIS THREAD (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=302409), discussing what i felt were the fundamental flaws facing Rangers, including:


Basic problems with Ranged combat, especially in relation to slow attack speed (Which means bonus damage is less effective to bow users), and the "reload animation" problem with attack speed increases.



Tempest III. With its feat cost, and the relative lack of 'awesome' for Ranger levels 13+ for Rangers, Tempest III needs make Pure Class melee Ranger desirable, rather than a liability.


Capstones. Currently we only have one, which suffers from the "Reload animation" issue, and is utterly undesirable to melee Rangers.



Ranger Spells. So many are awful, or not beneficial to the Ranger. Dcs are a problem. And Ranger level 3 spells are terribad.


Other Issues. Dismiss charm, AA ToD set, Ranger Past Life Active/Passive and Helf Dilli: ranger - More in depth in the linked thread.


Favored Enemy. Now this is what i feel is the most completely imbalanced and restricting feature for Rangers. I put this last so that i can go into more detail.


Currently, the possible Favored Enemy list is a mess. The majority of Favored Enemy types are utterly worthless choices: Vermin, Ooze, Dragon, Plant, Reptilian (Once you get passed the Harbor), Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Orc, Gnoll, Hobgoblin, Animal, Magical Beast, Human (Debatable), Lawful/Chaotic Outsider, etc. I have never seen anyone seriously recommend any of the above outside of very specific instances, or patently bad advice.

So why are these choices considered subpar? Compare them to one of the most popular choices: Undead. Favored Enemy Undead covers all of the "key elements" of what makes a good Favored Enemy:

- Large Level Spread. Undead can be found from 1 to 20, with a strong likelyhood to appear in future content (Underdark especially).

- Multiple Ranks. Undead have notable entries in swarms of cannon fodder, tougher middle-men, bosses, and even Raid Bosses, so they are found in multiple situations.

- Commonality. Undead are found in many different quests, with some content devoted almost exclusively to them.

- Difficulty. Undead have inherent immunities, often with DR, or incorporeality. They also often have very annoying special abilities which can be devestating in prolonged fights.

Many of the "not so good" Favored Enemies lack one or more of these components, while most of the most commonly taken Favored Enemy groups have all of these, or are so heavily stacked in one area that they far overcompensate for their shortcomings (Evil Outsider, for example, has difficulty and Raid Bosses in such abundance that it negates the lack of level spread).

Here is a repost of my "rough draft" idea to rebalance Favored Enemies to be roughly equal to each other, and narrowing their scope so that a pure class Ranger (With 5 favored enemies) can gain their bonus against roughly just under half of enemies faced:


Abberation - As is, plus Ooze and Plant. Ooze and Plant help fill out the fodder role, as well as extending the level spread and increased rarity of Abberation.
Beast - Include Animals, Magical Beasts, and Vermin. Extremely common enemies found at all levels, but lacking many notable bosses or difficulty factor. This category still needs work to be a contender.
Construct - As is, constructs are not quite as common as other groups, but the extra toughness factor helps them stand out as a top pick.
Elemental - As is, plus Mephits. Found at all levels, Common and Tough, but lacking notable bosses (plenty of easy bosses).
Extraplanars - Tieflings, Mephits, Djinni, Tharaak Hounds, anything and everything not covered by either elemental or evil outsider. Good level spread, very common, but lacking in tougher enemies and bosses. (I realize this name is rather generic, and could be confusing if people thought it included Elementals and Evil Outsiders)
Giant - As is, Giants fulfill all criteria nicely, and are already a top pick. Only concern is rarity at higher levels.
Humanoid - Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes. Very common enemies found at all levels, but not very tough, and very few notable bosses. Still a bit unbalanced, but inclusion of Drow and Duergar should help.
Humanoid, Monsterous - As is, but include Orcs, Goblinoids, and Gnolls. Mostly fodder, with a few tough enemies. Found at all levels, though it thins higher up. A few notable bosses (medusa, mostly) but light in that area.
Outsider, Evil - As is. Lacking in low level content, but more than made up for by being common, tough, and having a multitude of bosses and raid bosses. Possibly include Tieflings, unless this would make EO "too good".
Reptilian - Kobolds, Trogs, Medusa and Dragons. This category also needs some help, as it is still not a real contender. This category could perhaps be divided and merged with other groups (dragons into Beast, rest into Monsterous Humanoid?).
Undead - As is. As stated earlier, meets all criteria.

This is of course just a rough draft. Obviously it is not perfect, as some grouping are still obviously better than others, while some are still obviously worse. One suggestion i had in my previously mentioned thread was to allow some of the more common, but less threatening creatures exist in multiple favored enemy groups at once. Tieflings, for example, could be humanoids and evil outsiders or Extraplanars, while mephits could be Elementals and extraplanars.

Solidifying Favored Enemies would help keep Rangers in the swing of things, instead of having wide swaths of enemies where they are effectively -14 damage per hit. It would also allow much more variety in Favored Enemy picks, since the goal of the rebalancing is to make all FE groups equally attractive and useful.

I hope this isn't a derailment! Ranger love, yo!

[noinfo]

Ok I am a bit curious...

Why did Tempest 1 have to lose the Alaclarity?

I have never played a Ranger (atleast not to end game). SO I really wonder what is needed.

I have partied with Grodon (aka BigJunk) a long time ago and he pulled his weight, but I felt it was the player behind the keyboard more than anything.

I have also played with DEX based finesse builds and um...my mom said if you can't say anything nice...don't say anything at all.

But for real...why can't Tempest keep its 10% bonus speed? I am not a coder or anything, so if its a memory/computer issue...just say that.

One other thing that suprises me...no one mentioned rangers lack Toughness Enhancements. Please give them Toughness Enhancements.

The other thing...to me (this is just opinion) there seems to be almost no reason to go past level 6 or 11 maybe 12 ranger.

6 for Manyshot and Tempest 1. 11 for the next tier of dual-wield. I guess if you go to 11, why not go to 12. I understand maybe some spells or other things could be a good reason to level further. But for the most part, it seems to be more "end-game viable" a deep splash of something else seems to be beneficial to ranger. Like some Fighter (Kensai I and II) or Barbarian (Frenzy Berserker) levels.

Am I way off base?

PS... I have heard this in party chat a lot..."My exploiter was super fun to level from level 1-19...then I started raiding and saw how gimped it was compared to other DPSers".

The reason for the alacrity nerf was to cut down on server based calculations, this happened at the same time as twf in general got nerfed from actual separate attacks to proc based attacks.

[Bacab]

The reason for the alacrity nerf was to cut down on server based calculations, this happened at the same time as twf in general got nerfed from actual separate attacks to proc based attacks.

Gotya, and I remember that. That supposedly "fixed" the lag...and it didn't.

So with that being said...the Ranger Class has been spanked due to server latency. That does not seem "fair".

I guess spells and some other things may be the way to re-balance Ranger since attack speed seems to not be the route that will be most likely taken.

I know Ranged Combat and Ranger are not necessarily the same...but I think Power Attack effecting Ranged Attack would also boost the Ranger class a bit too.

[Blank_Zero]

The reason for the alacrity nerf was to cut down on server based calculations, this happened at the same time as twf in general got nerfed from actual separate attacks to proc based attacks.

Update 5 is the reason Smrti TR'd to a Blitz in the first place...

[noinfo]

@OP -

Interesting suggestions. I've been lobbying for Ranger tweaks for a while now, but tanking ability is one aspect I've never really thought about as a potential buff. it certainly makes sense with the barkskin/dex enhancements/tempest buffs and requirements all geared towards AC. Which is rather... annoying, since a pure Ranger would have a very hard time reaching a manageable AC (And would need to make serious sacrifices to do so - High dex, 13 int, combat expertise, leaving less feats and lower strength).

I hope this isn't a derailment! Ranger love, yo!

No not a derailment :D

There was a time when Rangers were kings. Ranger/Monk splashes (particulary halflings) with Wounding of Puncturing rapiers would tear through all content and really only needed help with bosses. Alacrity meant that they could stat damage faster and dex based meant high AC finesse builds that could outkill anything. It was not uncommon to see 6 splash Rangers in most melee builds. At that time the Vale was end game and the number of FE needed was few as almost all major bosses/threat types were evil outsiders, constructs, elementals, undead and probably whatever gnolls fall under. The problem is ever since that time all they have had is nerf after nerf. There is absolutely no danger in things going back to Ranger dominance again and that is a good thing but many of the reasons for many of the decisions that have altered combat in this game have gone.
1. DPS is king, Rangers while killing machines were never the highest dps in town and finesse based were worst. Now with vorpal nerfed on top, you are never going to see a top end killing machine that is dex based.
2. The complete nerf to AC (exploiters) this began with a poorly justified introdution of Grazing Hits that has led to the must have max hp and max heal amp view of things. Both of which downplays the potential of a ranger particulary a splash build.
3. The typing of the Ac bonus to shield was to nerf the high AC of ranger splashes compared to other builds particulary s/b, now with bonuses to SD and DOS who get a stacking AC bonus higher than tempest this is not really needed (not to mention massive hp bonuses)

Now the introduction of Damage Reduction % for defender type builds using shields (very much needed as these were really suffering) and monks (who have not been wanting for some time) and would provide a nice supportive ability for Tempest who are given a defensive buff yet not always able to make the most of it. This way those who dump their dex and go str/con still get some benefit and those who splash for AC can do the same.

I believe that major positive changes will happen with the enhancement changes, what we have been shown for rangers (very early) looks very good. However we have no idea when this is going to come in and regardless the changes suggested use a pre exisitng concept and would add value without coming close to OP while we wait for the big update that is long over due.

[Brennie]

The reason for the alacrity nerf was to cut down on server based calculations, this happened at the same time as twf in general got nerfed from actual separate attacks to proc based attacks.

They also "adjusted" Tempest I specifically because it made 6 ranger/14 otherstuff the most powerful dual-weilding builds, bar-none. Permenant 10% more melee damage from tier 1 of a PrE was simply too powerful to keep.

[Vormaerin]

An apparently little known fact is that this is the Lammania forum, not the Suggestions forum.

It is for feedback on the content produced, not for suggestions for new content. We want the devs to be able to use Lammania as a significant source of testing and feedback. That means it needs to be focused. If it becomes a general suggestion and whining forum (of which we have several already), its ability to function in that fashion degrades sharply. I know it appears the devs pay more attention here, but that won't be true if we flood this with off topic threads.

This would result in less of our input into the stuff they are actually doing before it hits live.

Note: I am not saying that your topic shouldn't be discussed. I am saying that it is in the wrong forum (General is more appropriate, or Suggestion if you propose actual ideas).

[noinfo]

Gotya, and I remember that. That supposedly "fixed" the lag...and it didn't.

So with that being said...the Ranger Class has been spanked due to server latency. That does not seem "fair".

I guess spells and some other things may be the way to re-balance Ranger since attack speed seems to not be the route that will be most likely taken.

I know Ranged Combat and Ranger are not necessarily the same...but I think Power Attack effecting Ranged Attack would also boost the Ranger class a bit too.

Actually the change did get rid of dps lag for the most part, doing part 2 of shroud was something that was swing and hope at times.

[red_cardinal]

Wait for summer. Hopefully, they will revamp every class.

[noinfo]

Wait for summer. Hopefully, they will revamp every class.

Already acknowledged that is happening several times, not the title of the thread. This is a bone they can throw now while we wait as we have waited and waited.

[licho]

I agree that rangers need some attencion, especially melee rangers could benefit from more serious temp III and capstone.

But do not forget about spell selection, which especially at higher tiers is poorly. So it will be good to see:
- Some buff to animal companion so it has more hp.
- Some minor spells like:
surefoot - add a balance +10 to ally target
minor vitality - healing over time (good for druid spell)
elemental weapons - add a chosen element to wielded weapon
mineral dust - add the chosen mineral to wielded weapon
bane weapon - if you have a FE you can make any wielded weapon bane against that kind.
Some debuff abilitty like mark target which will make easier to hit and dmg choosen opponent.

[grodon9999]

Ok I am a bit curious...

Why did Tempest 1 have to lose the Alaclarity?

I have never played a Ranger (atleast not to end game). SO I really wonder what is needed.

I have partied with Grodon (aka BigJunk) a long time ago and he pulled his weight, but I felt it was the player behind the keyboard more than anything.

I have also played with DEX based finesse builds and um...my mom said if you can't say anything nice...don't say anything at all.

But for real...why can't Tempest keep its 10% bonus speed? I am not a coder or anything, so if its a memory/computer issue...just say that.

One other thing that suprises me...no one mentioned rangers lack Toughness Enhancements. Please give them Toughness Enhancements.

The other thing...to me (this is just opinion) there seems to be almost no reason to go past level 6 or 11 maybe 12 ranger.

6 for Manyshot and Tempest 1. 11 for the next tier of dual-wield. I guess if you go to 11, why not go to 12. I understand maybe some spells or other things could be a good reason to level further. But for the most part, it seems to be more "end-game viable" a deep splash of something else seems to be beneficial to ranger. Like some Fighter (Kensai I and II) or Barbarian (Frenzy Berserker) levels.

Am I way off base?

PS... I have heard this in party chat a lot..."My exploiter was super fun to level from level 1-19...then I started raiding and saw how gimped it was compared to other DPSers".

The Ranger 6 Splash was over-powered, it got too much too early. A nerf of this was understandable as even with it the "monster" 12/6/2 builds are still every good.

Tempest III was never over-powered compared to kensai or FB (having just levelled up a pally I can say Tempest is better than KoTC, but that's a different conversation). The U5 nerfs were disproportionate with Tempest III losing the most amount of swings. The double-strike of 5% is too low, should be either a straight higher number or 5% + DEX bonus.

Tempest III's best strength right now it to-hit. A Tempest III with OTWF has NO TWFing penalties. Combine that with the Tempest set from ToD and something that gives you a +4 Competence or un-typed bonus and you can solo base 1 in EVON6. When tanking the bosses in EDA I can hit them on a 2 while I have aggro, a deeper splash (and I know from experience having had a 15/3/2) will have more problems with that.

And the 18/1/1 is still excellent in post level 20 play but you need gear. But then again EVERYONE does (except casters . . .) to not suck in epics. When you're 30ish STR and don't have any raid loot you do not belong in epics, when you're 40ish STR and have you raid loot and good to-hit you'll do just fine. Get your raid loot first.

Focus on different stuff, where your AC doesn't work your displacement scrolls and blue-bar self-healing does. Most of the big hits in this game that can potentially one-shot toons have a save, you have the potential of an excellent reflex save so most of that will not hit you. 500 HP and a 40+ reflex save helps a lot, whether it's running up to the Abishai in eChrono for the casters in EVON3, or hell so many situations to mention.

Build the right weaponry, take advantage of the fact that you get the most swings so weapon procs really work in your favor. I'm a few shards away from a Triple Earth Alchemical that should be a hell of a lot of fun in epics, earth-grabs work fantastic also.

My stable of toons is much larger than it used to be but mine is still my go-to guy if we don't need a special role filled. He's also my go-to guy for joining questionable pugs.

[voodoogroves]

I don't really think it's right to compare rangers fully to Fighters and Barbs, it's too apples and oranges.

But comparing to monks is fair game and the amount of OPness that has hit monks in recent updates (especially the stance changes from the last up) is baffling. Shade's completely right on this.

I do hate the nerf to TWF monk tactics no longer proc'ing on the 2nd swing; that was a bit painful.

I don't think monks are OP. I think they are the bar, and we need to raise the others.

Tempest attack speed or doublestrike or whatever they get should scale linearly so that splash trade-offs aren't as absolute. I'd like to see the real choice between Tempest 2 / Something else 1 and Tempest 1 / Something else 2 be serious. Tempest 3 should be the absolutely crazy fast attack/doublestrike/whatever.

[noinfo]

I don't really think it's right to compare rangers fully to Fighters and Barbs, it's too apples and oranges.

But comparing to monks is fair game and the amount of OPness that has hit monks in recent updates (especially the stance changes from the last up) is baffling. Shade's completely right on this.

While it was limited to SD/DOS shields I could live with just having the AC revert to untyped but with monks stances this request should be a no brainer.

Rangers should be comparative to monks and I completely agree on this, and to a degree Pallies though Rangers are more versatile than they are, they have severe limitations as well (Hp being the major one)

[CheeseMilk]

Wounds be gone (I suck at naming things):

small self only heal over time. ~5 dmg every 2 seconds for say maybe a minute. (more than 5 maybe but with heal amp may get too strong)

Regrowth. (http://ddowiki.com/page/Regrowth)

Already in-game on an item, and it was on Festivult Cookies a couple of years ago. Not great, but with some healing amp and devotion lines, it would basically be a personal radiant servant aura. Fits with the ranger (and Druid!) theme, too.

[Thrudh]

That supposedly "fixed" the lag...and it didn't.

You make yourself less credible when you say stuff like that...

[grodon9999]

You make yourself less credible when you say stuff like that...

it really didn't

I was on the Lamania tests where 10 Tempest Rangers still bogged a shroud down with SO much DPS lag I though my PC was going to catch fire.

it wasn't until Turbine raised the bandwidth cap per player that DPS lag got better.

The U5 TWFing changes didn't help in that regard, it was a nerf and nothing more.

[Crann]

Ok I am a bit curious...

But for real...why can't Tempest keep its 10% bonus speed? I am not a coder or anything, so if its a memory/computer issue...just say that. They did say that

...

PS... I have heard this in party chat a lot..."My exploiter was super fun to level from level 1-19...then I started raiding and saw how gimped it was compared to other DPSers".



They blamed the lag problem, in part, on the additional collision detections caused by the attack alacrity of tempests, monks and others.

They introduced the doublestrike mechanic the fix it, only they forgot to give it to Rangers, except for the paultry 5% Tempest 3 recieves.

My Exploiter was super fun to play to cap, until I leveled a fighter and a barb, and learned what DPS really was.

[Chai]

I don't really think it's right to compare rangers fully to Fighters and Barbs, it's too apples and oranges.

But comparing to monks is fair game and the amount of OPness that has hit monks in recent updates (especially the stance changes from the last up) is baffling. Shade's completely right on this.

However...

Monks were kicked alot harder than rangers and for a longer time. Handwraps have been broken on and off for years, rangers running around with greensteel khopesh all over the place for 2 years before TOD came out, then monks have to burn their ability to get exceptional stats so they can have more damage mods they should have gotten on wraps in the first place.

I just think monks got their love before rangers and paladins did, and not in place of rangers getting theirs.

All they had to do IMO in U5 was switch tier 1 of tempest with tier 3 of tempest. Want that haste? - Take 18 levels of ranger to get it, and not a mere 6 levels.

[Chai]

You make yourself less credible when you say stuff like that...

Hardly. Their measuring tools show that it had a positive impact on one cause of lag. Just like DA, there were better ways to alter the physics checks as demonstrated in other games, that have historically worked, than an overall nerf to attack speeds (which they then came out later on and waffled on anyhow by stating that the nerf and the physics checks were two different things, and the fact that they were tied to the same update does not mean one had to happen when the other did).

[rtgr10]

I was reading this post and thought of a better thing about rangers. Why not expand the list of favored enemies and improve the damage against them? (which should be automatic and not enhancements) I think it's a way to improve the class in general. In D&D there are hundreds of races in the list of favored enemies ... has little in DDO.
Just an idea.

[Thrudh]

it really didn't

I was on the Lamania tests where 10 Tempest Rangers still bogged a shroud down with SO much DPS lag I though my PC was going to catch fire.

it wasn't until Turbine raised the bandwidth cap per player that DPS lag got better.

The U5 TWFing changes didn't help in that regard, it was a nerf and nothing more.

There are multiple causes of lag. No one fix is supposed to "remove lag". You can't say "hey we still have lag, that fix obviously did NOTHING."

I'm a server administrator. I collect performance metrics. I have baselines to compare against. If I tell you that a change reduced lag, it reduced lag. It may not have eliminated lag, but I can tell if a change helps.

I sometimes wonder about the devs decisions myself, but I dislike it when you guys call them liars.

[grodon9999]

There are multiple causes of lag. No one fix is supposed to "remove lag". You can't say "hey we still have lag, that fix obviously did NOTHING."

I'm a server administrator. I collect performance metrics. I have baselines to compare against. If I tell you that a change reduced lag, it reduced lag. It may not have eliminated lag, but I can tell if a change helps.

I sometimes wonder about the devs decisions myself, but I dislike it when you guys call them liars.

Wasn't calling them a liar, you can be wrong and not be a liar if what you think you're saying is true.

Just saying . . . when we did the tests on U5 lamania the lag was so bad before they increased the bandwidth per player that calling that a lag fix is just far from reality.

Increasing the bandwidth per player did fix the DPS lag.

Were both steps needed? I can't say but it would have been interesting to test it out with the increased bandwidth and the old alacrity.

[Vormaerin]

I sometimes wonder about the devs decisions myself, but I dislike it when you guys call them liars.

Very much this. There is way too much "assumption of malice" type posts and outright accusations of lying that go on here.

[NaturalHazard]

. Shade's completely right on this.

Blasphemy !!!!!!:D

[noinfo]

Blasphemy !!!!!!:D

Expect that to end up in someones signature :D

[Ausdoerrt]

I agree that rangers need some attencion, especially melee rangers could benefit from more serious temp III and capstone.

But do not forget about spell selection, which especially at higher tiers is poorly. So it will be good to see:
- Some buff to animal companion so it has more hp.
- Some minor spells like:
surefoot - add a balance +10 to ally target
minor vitality - healing over time (good for druid spell)
elemental weapons - add a chosen element to wielded weapon
mineral dust - add the chosen mineral to wielded weapon
bane weapon - if you have a FE you can make any wielded weapon bane against that kind.
Some debuff abilitty like mark target which will make easier to hit and dmg choosen opponent.

Rangers in DDO don't have animal companions. Buffing their summon spells to the point where they're comparable to arcane summons of the same level would be welcome, but is a separate issue from the availability of pets.

Rangers should get a good selection of new spells after druids get released. It'll be complete BS if they don't.

IMO, ranged combat issues require more thorough and more immediate attention than the state of melee combat for rangers.

[noinfo]

Rangers in DDO don't have animal companions. Buffing their summon spells to the point where they're comparable to arcane summons of the same level would be welcome, but is a separate issue from the availability of pets.

Rangers should get a good selection of new spells after druids get released. It'll be complete BS if they don't.

IMO, ranged combat issues require more thorough and more immediate attention than the state of melee combat for rangers.

Ranged combat issues are not limited to rangers though and require extensive changes.

[Ausdoerrt]

Ranged combat issues are not limited to rangers though and require extensive changes.

True, but considering that rangers have effectively the only ranged-based PrEs (arguably also Kensai but w/e), this hurts them the most.

[noinfo]

True, but considering that rangers have effectively the only ranged-based PrEs (arguably also Kensai but w/e), this hurts them the most.

Actually I seem to be seeing more kensai elf AA more. Though I would argue that the melee needs the attention first I certainly won't say the ranged part is far behind. My issue is that my suggestion would be a quick implementation as opposed to the more extensive rework of ranged that is also long overdue.

[Bacab]

You make yourself less credible when you say stuff like that...

I experienced the same thing Junk did with the huge lag. Like running up the stairs in Part one of the shroud and clicking on the chest...and then all of a sudden...I am at the bottom of the stairs.

But you are also right...it did "help the lag a bit". I guess "fix" was the wrong wording.

[Bacab]

Kinda a synopsis...

Turbine/the Devs need to figure out which way they want Ranger to go.

If they want it to be a really strong DPS class...they need to maybe give it some more double-strike or add more Favored Enemy damage or something.

If they want it to be more versatile (which is really cool too), maybe add more spells. One other thing I like and it is in "Pathfinder" RPG PNP. Allow rangers to "share their Favored Enemy". Maybe not give the whole bonus the ranger gets, but add an aura or a spell similar to "silver weapons or deadly weapons". Like that "FoeBane" spell that was listed earlier, but make it not just self only. If a Ranger could share its FE damage...they would be really attractive to raid parties for that buff. I can see it being game-breaking too though. So it would probably need to be re-worked.

[NaturalHazard]

True, but considering that rangers have effectively the only ranged-based PrEs (arguably also Kensai but w/e), this hurts them the most.

arti's and rogues? you know repeater rogues unite? Also the elf race which opens up AA to anyclass?



. Allow rangers to "share their Favored Enemy". Maybe not give the whole bonus the ranger gets, but add an aura or a spell similar to "silver weapons or deadly weapons". Like that "FoeBane" spell that was listed earlier, but make it not just self only. If a Ranger could share its FE damage...they would be really attractive to raid parties for that buff. I can see it being game-breaking too though. So it would probably need to be re-worked.

Shade would love this!!!

Bard/Arti/favoured soul/ Ranger the new axer package.

[licho]

Shade would love this!!!

Bard/Arti/favoured soul/ Ranger the new axer package.

Well this will actually made a point of inviting ranger to the party.
Also it will open great ranger pike opportunites.
Thumb up! :-)

But more seriously its not so bad idea.
Maybe give rangers some high level ability: "Show weakness" - which will mark enemy (must be FE) as more vulnerable for allies, and ggive him some -2 to hit/saves/dmg/ac so it will be easier to fight it. THat would make rangers more useful, and also more active (fun) to play.

[GoRinNoSho]

IMO one quick thing would be a reversal of the tempest attack speed up to doublestrike. My logic behind that is during the time of the debuff, the only way to get a similar effect melee speed bump was from Jorgundal's collar or docent of quickening.

Now there is jorg's, docent, fabricator's gauntlets and the 10% melee alacrity bump that can go on weapon and trinket. (the ability is fairly common now)

Additionally, they were kind enough to provide the doublespeed haste in challenges. With those bumps "forward" there hasn't been, at least based on my findings, a jump in "DPS lag".

[azrael4h]

Shade would love this!!!

Bard/Arti/favoured soul/ Ranger the new axer package.

1 Ranger only, must have XX Favored Enemy.

[Grailhawk]

The enhancement change in the summer is going to give us the hast boost line. They should just give us that now and to hold us over till then.

[Brennie]

I was reading this post and thought of a better thing about rangers. Why not expand the list of favored enemies and improve the damage against them? (which should be automatic and not enhancements) I think it's a way to improve the class in general. In D&D there are hundreds of races in the list of favored enemies ... has little in DDO.
Just an idea.

Personally, I am against Rangers getting buffed soley in the Favored Enemy department. Right now, a pure Ranger has 5 favored enemies and +14 damage against them. Right now, Rangers struggle to keep up with Fighters and Barbarians in fights against the Ranger's Favored Enemies. More FE damage would help them be as-good DPS against FEs, but then that becomes the balancing point of Rangers, and they are doomed to be -18, -20, or -25 damage *per hit* versus the large majority of enemies who are not on a Rangers FE list! It will pidgeonhole Rangers into only being useful in certain content, and a wet noodle who passes out FoM in anything else.

Additionally, if you were to add MORE Favored Enemy groups, then instead of having 5 of 20 enemies in the game on a Rangers FE list, you'd have 5 of 30, or 40, or 50! Rangers would be even more niche, and severely weakened in even MORE content.

As i said before in this thread, Favored Enemies are a mess. Moreso, Favored Enemies are a "feature" that makes balancing Rangers extraordinarily difficult. I feel that Rangers should be good all-round DPS who offer some common, if redundant (Since almost every Ranger spell is duplicated on another caster's list... as barkskin will be when Druids come out), party buffs. Their DPS should be slightly behind pure DPS characters such as fighters and Barbs, but should catch up when facing FEs (Especially FEs who are uncrittable or have high DR or whatnot).

However, Favored Enemies still remain broken. Here is my rough-draft proposal on regrouping FEs to balance them against each other, and to offer slightly more versilitilty to Rangers in general:


Abberation - As is, plus Ooze and Plant. Ooze and Plant help fill out the fodder role, as well as extending the level spread and increased rarity of Abberation.
Beast - Include Animals, Magical Beasts, and Vermin. Extremely common enemies found at all levels, but lacking many notable bosses or difficulty factor. This category still needs work to be a contender.
Construct - As is, constructs are not quite as common as other groups, but the extra toughness factor helps them stand out as a top pick.
Elemental - As is, plus Mephits. Found at all levels, Common and Tough, but lacking notable bosses (plenty of easy bosses).
Extraplanars - Tieflings, Mephits, Djinni, Tharaak Hounds, anything and everything not covered by either elemental or evil outsider. Good level spread, very common, but lacking in tougher enemies and bosses. (I realize this name is rather generic, and could be confusing if people thought it included Elementals and Evil Outsiders)
Giant - As is, Giants fulfill all criteria nicely, and are already a top pick. Only concern is rarity at higher levels.
Humanoid - Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes. Very common enemies found at all levels, but not very tough, and very few notable bosses. Still a bit unbalanced, but inclusion of Drow and Duergar should help.
Humanoid, Monsterous - As is, but include Orcs, Goblinoids, and Gnolls. Mostly fodder, with a few tough enemies. Found at all levels, though it thins higher up. A few notable bosses (medusa, mostly) but light in that area.
Outsider, Evil - As is. Lacking in low level content, but more than made up for by being common, tough, and having a multitude of bosses and raid bosses. Possibly include Tieflings, unless this would make EO "too good".
Reptilian - Kobolds, Trogs, Medusa and Dragons. This category also needs some help, as it is still not a real contender. This category could perhaps be divided and merged with other groups (dragons into Beast, rest into Monsterous Humanoid?).
Undead - As is. As stated earlier, meets all criteria.

More explanation of that can be found HERE (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4290378&postcount=18), with my old suggestion thread of otehr Ranger issues found HERE (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=302409)

[konexion]

Right now, Rangers struggle to keep up with Fighters and Barbarians in fights against the Ranger's Favored Enemies

speak for your own ranger. i have no issue keeping up with barbs and fighters and even surpassing them on my ranger

[NaturalHazard]

speak for your own ranger. i have no issue keeping up with barbs and fighters and even surpassing them on my ranger

wow you must run with some real gimp fighters and barbs.

Yeah on my ranger I keep up with and surpass a lot of fighters and barbs, but thats more often because hes way better geared than them or they made some build mistakes or are not playing their charactor closer to the best of its abilities.

[grodon9999]

speak for your own ranger. i have no issue keeping up with barbs and fighters and even surpassing them on my ranger

See below.


wow you must run with some real gimp fighters and barbs.

Yeah on my ranger I keep up with and surpass a lot of fighters and barbs, but thats more often because hes way better geared than them or they made some build mistakes or are not playing their charactor closer to the best of its abilities.

My ranger is "maxxed" gearwise and will out-DPS most of the barbs/fighters he encounters in his adventures in pugland.

Against another fighter or barb who is also maxed gearwise it's not a contest.

Gear > Class except when gear is equal.

[konexion]

My ranger is "maxxed" gearwise and will out-DPS most of the barbs/fighters he encounters in his adventures in pugland.

winner winner chicken dinner. i've stolen and kept agro on mine in hard and elite VOD's and several other epic runs along with non epic raids.

[grodon9999]

winner winner chicken dinner. i've stolen and kept agro on mine in hard and elite VOD's, epic chono, and several other epic runs along with no epic raids.

Over who?

Just because something has a Axe as their character symbol doesn't mean they do good DPS despite the nonsense perpetuated on the forums by certain fanboi posters.

As I said before . . . Gear > Class. If you were a fighter with your gear your DPS would be better. You would hit harder, have more swings with better boosts, have more boosts, actually have tactics, etc . . .

My ranger's tanked eChrono over 100 times (I'm not kidding), elite VOD, sulu in Elite TOD and Horoth in hard. Many others have done the same thing, as have monks, FVS, and even a few bards/rogues.

[konexion]

over who? over barbs and fighters swinging epic antiques, linking eclaws in party chat etc. if i proc my stuff often, it's not hard to do the same if not more. i have a very well geared barb and prefer my ranger over it in most runs cause it does about the same and is much more fun to play

[NaturalHazard]

over who? over barbs and fighters swinging epic antiques, linking eclaws in party chat etc. if i proc my stuff often, it's not hard to do the same if not more. i have a very well geared barb and prefer my ranger over it in most runs cause it does about the same and is much more fun to play

Ive stolen aggro off a water savant dot tanking the ECAD while he was in fire form.............. but wait he was knocked down, and was experiancing lag issues. But I took aggro off of him so I must haz moar dps. :rolleyes:

[grodon9999]

over who? over barbs and fighters swinging epic antiques, linking eclaws in party chat etc. if i proc my stuff often, it's not hard to do the same if not more. i have a very well geared barb and prefer my ranger over it in most runs cause it does about the same and is much more fun to play

An EGA is a good weapon, but it's not a great weapon.

One of the big flaws in this game is that THFing is drastically behind if the wielder is not holding an ESoS. it's bad to balance an enitre style on one extremely hard to get weapon but it is the reality that is DDO.

Against an ESoS barb or equal geared Khopesh Kensai it won't happen.

[konexion]

Ive stolen aggro off a water savant dot tanking the ECAD while he was in fire form.............. but wait he was knocked down, and was experiancing lag issues. But I took aggro off of him so I must haz moar dps. :rolleyes:

why thank you for that moment of uberness. we all bow before you and burn incense in your belly button and place fish heads between your toes

[NaturalHazard]

why thank you for that moment of uberness. we all bow before you and burn incense in your belly button and place fish heads between your toes

You roll a 1 on your sarcasm check.

[NaturalHazard]

An EGA is a good weapon, but it's not a great weapon.

.

When I see a barb/fighter tank using a EGA I do give them a bit of a head start, I take it slow on the manyshots, don't do it too early and of course if someone else is tanking I take off all my threat gear. Don't have eclaw so don't have threat gear stuff that I need to have on to do more dps when im not tanking.

[konexion]

You roll a 1 on your sarcasm check.

touche

[grodon9999]

When I see a barb/fighter tank using a EGA I do give them a bit of a head start, I take it slow on the manyshots, don't do it too early and of course if someone else is tanking I take off all my threat gear. Don't have eclaw so don't have threat gear stuff that I need to have on to do more dps when im not tanking.

Claw set off, tharnes set on, spam bluff which gives you a threat reduction even if you fail the roll. You gain more DPS getting your sneak attack anyway.

if you still pull aggro you have the right to make fun of them :)

[Qhualor]

on my tempest ranger:

tank died in echrono when chrono monster was down 1/4. he turned on me and i tanked him until my deathward was debuffed or ran out (not sure which) and i died when he was at 1/4 health. group was solid with every class in the game. party leader did a gear check before letting people into the group.

tank died in tod while tanking horo. horo came after me. all i heard was, "stay still and block until the tank gets rebuffed". i did as told, but funny he didnt go after the suluu tank or any of the other barbs or fighters.

in snitch, i get on the back of crateos (however its spelled). going fine and crateos is beating the snot out of the fighter tank using a construct bane sword. health is at half, crateos turns to me and beats on me. tank cant get it back. i lose the aggro when the caster lays in the dots when crateos is less than 1/4.

a lot of the epic quests are like that. bigtop, partycrashers, von 1, last stand. it doesnt happen EVERY time, but it happens common enough.

my ranger didnt become an "aggro stealer" until he got some epic weapons and items. its not intentional, i dont want the aggro. i built him to be a support toon for the heavy hitters and casters, but still put up good dps numbers. the above were just some examples and i have plenty more. he does wear tharnes goggles and bracers (20% threat reduction), but i think i need to add more since i see this happening too often for my liking on this toon.

and no, thats without manyshot.

[NaturalHazard]

on my tempest ranger:

tank died in echrono when chrono monster was down 1/4. he turned on me and i tanked him until my deathward was debuffed or ran out (not sure which) and i died when he was at 1/4 health. group was solid with every class in the game. party leader did a gear check before letting people into the group.

and no, thats without manyshot.

He debuffs you, you have to keep an eye on your death ward and ask for a new one if you cant provide it for yourself.

Ive tanked him a fair bit on my ranger.

[NaturalHazard]

touche

What I intended to say is pulling aggro isnt always an indicator of dps, read on what I said and how it happened. Sometimes there is other factors is all.

[Aashrym]

Claw set off, tharnes set on, spam bluff which gives you a threat reduction even if you fail the roll. You gain more DPS getting your sneak attack anyway.

if you still pull aggro you have the right to make fun of them :)

How much fun do I get to make of them pulling the aggro off a fighter on a caster based spellsinger? :D

[BOgre]

Well, one thing Rangers will like is this:

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n534/basilvino/ScreenShot00188-1.jpg

Epic Bow of the Silver Flame (sorry it's chopped, you know, tall tooltip popups on a short res screen)

Dropped in tonight's Lamma event.

[Yan_PL]

Epic Bow of the Silver Flame

as far as I've been told, this bow isn't really best option VS enemies other than abbot, and even vs abbot it struggles against other bows, such as tripos GS.

[BOgre]

as far as I've been told, this bow isn't really best option VS enemies other than abbot, and even vs abbot it struggles against other bows, such as tripos GS.

Well, I suppose i could be completely wrong, but this bow is a NEW U13 epic item, never seen before this update, so i don't see how anything you've just claimed could have been tested. Again, I could be completely wrong...

Besides, what I'm stoked about is the addition of the 'Blunted Ammunition' mechanic to the game. I'm hoping we'll see it pop up in other places now that it's here.

[Ausdoerrt]

Well, I suppose i could be completely wrong, but this bow is a NEW U13 epic item, never seen before this update, so i don't see how anything you've just claimed could have been tested. Again, I could be completely wrong...

You don't need to test something you can calculate. There was a thread on that. There's exactly 3 enemies in the game where the bow is actually useful: Abbot, hard/elite Sorjek in SoS, and eWizKing. Alles.

It's a bow that'll dust in the bank/inventory 90% of the time unless you religiously farm WizKing for some reason.

[WolfHealr]

as far as I've been told, this bow isn't really best option VS enemies other than abbot, and even vs abbot it struggles against other bows, such as tripos GS.

Not sure who's telling you, but I'd wager they're wrong. Ignoring the fort reduction proc, the epic version should be about even with a triple pos bow somewhere in the mid teens - meaning it pulls ahead against the Abbot at any difficulty, Sorjek in SoS, eWizKing, etc.

Add in the fort reduction proc, and it's a party-wide increase in DPS. Heck, I'll probably wind up crafting the epic repeater on my wiz just for that to get a proc between casting BDB and spreading firewalls around since they gave the Abbot evasion :/

[BOgre]

Not sure who's telling you, but I'd wager they're wrong. Ignoring the fort reduction proc, the epic version should be about even with a triple pos bow somewhere in the mid teens - meaning it pulls ahead against the Abbot at any difficulty, Sorjek in SoS, eWizKing, etc.

Add in the fort reduction proc, and it's a party-wide increase in DPS. Heck, I'll probably wind up crafting the epic repeater on my wiz just for that to get a proc between casting BDB and spreading firewalls around since they gave the Abbot evasion :/

^This. And since Rangers seem to be the ones taking up the Fort reduction role, to free melees to do their job, eBSF seems to me to a really nice fit. And again, Blunted Ammo... that's the really nice part. I'da liked to see Greater undeadbane for the epic version, like most have said in the lamma U13 thread, but it's still nice.

What's more, you can't compare this with GS or any other item AT ALL, since it (and it's other U13 counterparts) are the first F2P epic items ever... right?

[Ausdoerrt]

What's more, you can't compare this with GS or any other item AT ALL, since it (and it's other U13 counterparts) are the first F2P epic items ever... right?

I'd prefer if they made it P2Pand ungimped the bow...

[quickgrif]

Would full offhand damage and a melee haste clickie narrow the gap in some areas?

I know the full off hand damage was mentioned by the devs and many are thinking the melee haste clickie in place of the increased attack speed of the Dervish.

[NaturalHazard]

^This. And since Rangers seem to be the ones taking up the Fort reduction role, to free melees to do their job, eBSF seems to me to a really nice fit. And again, Blunted Ammo... that's the really nice part. I'da liked to see Greater undeadbane for the epic version, like most have said in the lamma U13 thread, but it's still nice.

What's more, you can't compare this with GS or any other item AT ALL, since it (and it's other U13 counterparts) are the first F2P epic items ever... right?

So even when manyshot is off timmer my tempest is going to be expected to plink away at raid bosses with this bow?

[BOgre]

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. This bow is the Ranger's Excalibur and you will never have to use any other weapon.

[JasonJi72]

Yes, but Rangers aren't the best at ranged combat anymore.

I do think the new enhancement system will help Rangers substantially. Remember, they were at the top for a long time, and they may get there again soon.

[Yan_PL]

18/1/1 barbarian half elf can get manyshot, can get slayer arrows from racial PrE, massive bonuses to str, and glorified barbarian crits. Rangers are not the best at ranged combat, possibly. Half elf fighter monks with zen archery/10k stars, as some alternative to manyshot when it's on timer.

[NaturalHazard]

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. This bow is the Ranger's Excalibur and you will never have to use any other weapon.

why waste being a ranger to use the bow? why not roll up one of those monk/AA or kensai/AA builds they would make much better use of that bow.

I made mine to be a tempest, yes to use his bow when manyshot is off timmer but not to have his bow welded to his hand, stuff that.

[noinfo]

over who? over barbs and fighters swinging epic antiques, linking eclaws in party chat etc. if i proc my stuff often, it's not hard to do the same if not more. i have a very well geared barb and prefer my ranger over it in most runs cause it does about the same and is much more fun to play

I have a ranger hybrid that is very very well geared and has done all sorts of stupid things just because he can and surive. He has solid dps due to gear and in a PUG in most situations he is going to dominate heavily, however against my barb in a dps situation? It is not even close and I will be honest here IF an Equally geared ranger in melee without loading up with all the threat gear under the sun pulled agro off my Barb over an extended period I would re-roll, its not even close. Sure you might get lucky with burst effects early on but in an extended period not so much.

There are enough dps calculations that can and do show this to you and while calculations don't show the whole story there is just not enough fuzy math in the world to back your statement up. (not the you having agro but your dps)
To add insult to injury, the barely adequate dps of the Ranger takes a relative downturn when the barb in question decides to use his damage boost adding another massive % to his damage output.

[noinfo]

Yes, but Rangers aren't the best at ranged combat anymore.

I do think the new enhancement system will help Rangers substantially. Remember, they were at the top for a long time, and they may get there again soon.

Rangers were not on top for a very long time, ranger 6 splashes were (for melee cause no one bothered with range at all).

[noinfo]

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. This bow is the Ranger's Excalibur and you will never have to use any other weapon.

Cool since everyone can get manyshot I will take this to mean that everyone is going to dump their feats and take up ranged? I look forward to trading my Barbs eSOS for this nice new shiny.

1. There are so many other classes that make better ranged than rangers the statment is just...
2. Ranger does NOT mean ranged. They get the ranged feats but that provides some degree of versatility for melee rangers.

[noinfo]

why waste being a ranger to use the bow? why not roll up one of those monk/AA or kensai/AA builds they would make much better use of that bow.

I made mine to be a tempest, yes to use his bow when manyshot is off timmer but not to have his bow welded to his hand, stuff that.

This is exactly right. Rangers were the king of 2WF in DND long before there were fancy feats in 3rd Ed.

[BOgre]

why waste being a ranger to use the bow? why not roll up one of those monk/AA or kensai/AA builds they would make much better use of that bow.

I made mine to be a tempest, yes to use his bow when manyshot is off timmer but not to have his bow welded to his hand, stuff that.


Cool since everyone can get manyshot I will take this to mean that everyone is going to dump their feats and take up ranged? I look forward to trading my Barbs eSOS for this nice new shiny.

1. There are so many other classes that make better ranged than rangers the statment is just...
2. Ranger does NOT mean ranged. They get the ranged feats but that provides some degree of versatility for melee rangers.


double sarcasm check fails. :(

And I'm well aware that a Ranger isn't the best range-er (which is a shame). I would never have capped at all if I thought that... But even with my gimpy 28pt TempTrapmonkey I make a decent range-er, when the need arises. Anyways, beside the point. All I was saying, for those that somehow missed it, is that blunted ammo is nice, and seeing the effect in a u13 weapon brings me some hope for the future of ranged combat in general.

[NaturalHazard]

double sarcasm check fails. :(

And I'm well aware that a Ranger isn't the best range-er (which is a shame). I would never have capped at all if I thought that... But even with my gimpy 28pt TempTrapmonkey I make a decent range-er, when the need arises. Anyways, beside the point. All I was saying, for those that somehow missed it, is that blunted ammo is nice, and seeing the effect in a u13 weapon brings me some hope for the future of ranged combat in general.

The ranger class is not named after ranged combate. Never was, something that so many people don't get.

My favourite charactor is my 28 point ranger.

Anyway I don't see why a ranger has to be the *best* possible class for ranged combate, make it so that AA's are up there and Ranger AA's are comparably viable with the other types and that would be enough for me.

[grandeibra]

The ranger class is not named after ranged combate. Never was, something that so many people don't getThis! So true. Even native English speakers seem to confuse these two words.

[noinfo]

double sarcasm check fails. :(

And I'm well aware that a Ranger isn't the best range-er (which is a shame). I would never have capped at all if I thought that... But even with my gimpy 28pt TempTrapmonkey I make a decent range-er, when the need arises. Anyways, beside the point. All I was saying, for those that somehow missed it, is that blunted ammo is nice, and seeing the effect in a u13 weapon brings me some hope for the future of ranged combat in general.

Which is fair enough, the problem is that people are always misassociating the name that that is very annoying.
Blunt ammunition is nice but has completely nothing to do with a Ranger buff at all.

[BOgre]

Which is fair enough, the problem is that people are always misassociating the name that that is very annoying.
Blunt ammunition is nice but has completely nothing to do with a Ranger buff at all.
misassociating? really?

Ranger:http://ddowiki.com/images/thumb/Ranger.png/50px-Ranger.png

Prestige Enhancements

Arcane Archer
Deepwood Sniper


Advancement Table

1st Bow Strength
2nd Rapid Shot
6th Manyshot
11th Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot

It's pretty clear that the Ranger class was intended to be DDO's Ranged Combat specialist. We all know it didn't quite work out that way, but to say we're misassociating the word is wrong.

And saying 'completely' and 'not at all' in reference to a ranger buff, also wrong.

[kutscd01]

And now that they have the Arty pets in the game, when can we expect to see animal companions for Rangers?!? Clearly it is doable now and what's a ranger without an animal companion? Oh yeah, a fighter...

[licho]

misassociating? really?

Ranger:http://ddowiki.com/images/thumb/Ranger.png/50px-Ranger.png


You skipped Tempest! But considering state of Temp III and lack of capstone i understand it.

As a side note, just if one of class features cover some aspect it dosnt mean that class is dedicated to perform this action, or the action is limited to this only class.

For example Wizzards have CC spells, and enhancement (like Archimagi Conj/Ench) but that dont mean that CC is a sole purpose of Wizard, or the CC is allowed to be performed only by Wizies.

In the same way is with ranged combat and rangers.
They have ranged tools, but it dosnt mean that every ranger must use bow more than 20% of the time.
Also it dosnt meant that only rangers should be able to use bow effectivly.

And the big fail/flaw of the game is a design in that opposite way.

I suppose most ppl wish that:
- Ranged (bow) combat was just a style choice, similar to going 2wf or 2hf. And with similar effect considering expendes.
- We will see around Bards/Rogues/Divines/Monks... and every other class with a bow. And it will be not a worse choice than walking around with axe are one of named sword.
- Arcane Archer will be just a PrE, but not the only way to build meaningful bow user.
- Even with close to 0 investment range and bow using will be the option, in the same way as anybody can pick a axe and use it effectivly.
- Each feat will count, and if you spend 9 feats you will actually get something more than style with just a 5.
- The Ranger class will be usefull to something. And you can go pure ranged and still dont suck.
- The dps of ranger will be comparable, and when it comes to FE exeed other classes.
- The Rangers will have a way to buff/support/boost in other way performence of the group. And have spells/abilities for that.

[NaturalHazard]

misassociating? really?

Ranger:http://ddowiki.com/images/thumb/Ranger.png/50px-Ranger.png

Prestige Enhancements

Arcane Archer
Deepwood Sniper


Advancement Table

1st Bow Strength
2nd Rapid Shot
6th Manyshot
11th Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot

It's pretty clear that the Ranger class was intended to be DDO's Ranged Combat specialist. We all know it didn't quite work out that way, but to say we're misassociating the word is wrong.

And saying 'completely' and 'not at all' in reference to a ranger buff, also wrong.

So what? rogues have a ranged prestige as well, so does that mean that rogues where *meant* to be ddo's ranged specialists? In d&d rangers could choose between two different paths, ranged or two weapon fighting. In ddo they gave them both and took away the animal companion. If anything they might of intended rangers to be special because they where meant to be good at both fighting styles in DDO. With two prestiges for more power in ranged combate and one to be more powerful in melee combate.

[lopkon]

misassociating? really?

Ranger:http://ddowiki.com/images/thumb/Ranger.png/50px-Ranger.png

Prestige Enhancements

Arcane Archer
Deepwood Sniper


Advancement Table

1st Bow Strength
2nd Rapid Shot
6th Manyshot
11th Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot

It's pretty clear that the Ranger class was intended to be DDO's Ranged Combat specialist. We all know it didn't quite work out that way, but to say we're misassociating the word is wrong.

And saying 'completely' and 'not at all' in reference to a ranger buff, also wrong.

But maybe getting all this feats and PrEs easily (without 19 base Dex even) is the main benefit rangers are supposed to get for ranged combat? Not saying rangers are overpowered or anything, but they surely have the easiest access to somewhat useful ranged combat abilities (okay we can argue about Artificer, but thats like comparing a monk to a palading, really). So while I agree that rangers could use a general boost, I disagree that they should be top ranged specialist, for me their strongest point is the inherit abilities in ranged and TWF combat, without any feat investment.

[NaturalHazard]

their strongest point is the inherit abilities in ranged and TWF combat, without any feat investment.

True but they do have to invest in some feats if they want to get tempest or AA.

[Thar]

it really didn't

I was on the Lamania tests where 10 Tempest Rangers still bogged a shroud down with SO much DPS lag I though my PC was going to catch fire.

it wasn't until Turbine raised the bandwidth cap per player that DPS lag got better.

The U5 TWFing changes didn't help in that regard, it was a nerf and nothing more.

I don't have a link... but one of the devs at the time did confirm that the TWF change had nothing to do with lag but was more for class balance.

If I wasn't lazy i'd look it up but I remember being highly annoyed at the time after reading that.

Seriously, if an extra 10% calculations are dragging down your servers then you have a bigger problem. I'm sure that we've lost way more people than that to swtor so there should be absolutely no lag... no that's not the problem...

The other changes they put in at the same time did help lag so it was seemless.

[lopkon]

True but they do have to invest in some feats if they want to get tempest or AA.

Indeed. The PrEs are even quite feat intensive, which is especially bad since some of the required feats are not really useful.
Just saying the basic abilities are there. Getting all the feats for either ranged or TWF (especially ranged) on a non-ranger is rather feat intensive and slims the build choices by a lot, getting both is even worse (except for fighters).

[Memek]

Artificers show that pewpew is just supposed to be a past time for characters - Artificers are real casters and gain a stronger ranged option than Rangers, just so.
Rangers are real melee and gain a ranged option too, big deal...
AAs gain the strongest burst damage for slightly weaker melee (IPS+MS+Slayer Arrows, and Tempest rather sucks) so that is a viable trade-off. DS should just be removed and exchanged for a tank or heal Ranger PrE.

It's done. Artis are best ranged, and they are real, full-blown casters. Suck it pewpews, start meleeing.

[Vormaerin]

It's pretty clear that the Ranger class was intended to be DDO's Ranged Combat specialist. We all know it didn't quite work out that way, but to say we're misassociating the word is wrong.


The name "Ranger" has nothing to do with the function of "ranged combat." It derives from "ranging" as in traveling, not shooting. The class has been named "ranger" since long before there was any association between the class and archery. As you probably realize, it was lifted from LotR's rangers (none of whom showed any especial interest in archery.

As for DDO specifically, there is nothing to indicate the devs ever expected rangers to be the best archers. They actually deviated from p&p design to make sure even archer focused rangers had melee capability.

[Aesop]

I'd still like to see Ranger get some new spells that augment their combat ability.

Arrow Storm (attack all enemies within 1st range increment... Maybe have arrows do AoE damage or something)
Blade Storm (attack all enemies within reach... I'd just make it a Double Strike chance similar to Zeal)

Foebane (add Bane effect vs Favored Enemies)
Hunter's Eye (1d6 Sneak Attack Damage per 3 caster levels)


Sniper Shot (Sneak Attack and Point Blank at any range)
Exacting Shot (Auto Confirm Crits vs FE)

Aesop

[MeliCat]

Sheesh noinfo - you cut it pretty fine tanking Horry on your ranger - we almost didn't get our Suulu chest cos we almost hadn't managed to kill him fast enough. Usually it's the healers wanting to know how much left on Suulu but it was amusing to hear you call out to know to slow down. And it wasn't particularly weaksauce on Suulu either.

[noinfo]

Sheesh noinfo - you cut it pretty fine tanking Horry on your ranger - we almost didn't get our Suulu chest cos we almost hadn't managed to kill him fast enough. Usually it's the healers wanting to know how much left on Suulu but it was amusing to hear you call out to know to slow down. And it wasn't particularly weaksauce on Suulu either.

Sure he has enough gear to do pretty much anything I want him to but he is also a deep splash build with only 12 levels of ranger and if I had been on Cro (my barb) he would have been dead in half the time and you would have lost the sulu chest :D though alot more healing intensive and if I was on my SD kill time would have been close or similar and much much less damage would have been taken due to shield masteries etc.

It was fun though since we were racing against time for the server going down :D

[Brennie]

The name "Ranger" has nothing to do with the function of "ranged combat." It derives from "ranging" as in traveling, not shooting. The class has been named "ranger" since long before there was any association between the class and archery. As you probably realize, it was lifted from LotR's rangers (none of whom showed any especial interest in archery.)

Though the name Ranger comes from LOTR rangers, their implementation seems to closer to Legolas in action, what with the dual wielding and the archery as the focus of their combat lines. The most famous "Ranger" in LOTR Singleweilded a bastard sword (I think?) for a majority of his time, and didn't have any particular magic bond with nature.


As for DDO specifically, there is nothing to indicate the devs ever expected rangers to be the best archers. They actually deviated from p&p design to make sure even archer focused rangers had melee capability.

You mean, except that two of their three PrEs are Ranged focused, their only Capstone affects only Ranged combat, and their class icon is a bow?

Granted, these are circumstantial, but clearly show the Devs intend Rangers to be able to choose a Ranged-Focus build and excel at it. And, frankly, the only reason other classes can meet or exceed Rangers in Archery ability is the Elf/Helf access to the Ranger PrE Arcane Archer. Cause a level 20 AA ranger is cool, but a Full AA with Longbow Kensai III and Fighter weapon specializations/haste boost/power surge etc kinda tips the balance, doncha think?

[Aesop]

I'd like to scratch AA as a ranger PrE and just leave it as an Elf/H.Elf PrE

Then come up with some other PrE for Rangers that doesn't focus on one of their specific Combat Styles. Maybe something like Beastmaster or Highland Stalker or some PrE dedicated specifically to Favored Enemies.

Race PrEs as things different than Class PrEs opens up better options and possible synergies while not punishing a class for taking it.

Aesop

[NaturalHazard]

Though the name , and didn't have any particular magic bond with nature.



[],?

He was a skilled tracker though, it has *him* and legolas that tracked the hobbits after they where kidnapped by the orcs. He has a lot of wilderness survival lore.

[FengXian]

I'd like to scratch AA as a ranger PrE and just leave it as an Elf/H.Elf PrE

Then come up with some other PrE for Rangers that doesn't focus on one of their specific Combat Styles. Maybe something like Beastmaster or Highland Stalker or some PrE dedicated specifically to Favored Enemies.

Race PrEs as things different than Class PrEs opens up better options and possible synergies while not punishing a class for taking it.

Aesop

This would be nice. Since AA is the only racial PrE atm, rangers would be "disadvantaged" by the introduction of other racial PrEs, since they would effectively end up with one less PrE than other classes (2 ranger, 1 ranger/racial, while I assume fighters would have 3 fighter PrEs, and dwarven defender "stacking" with stalwart defender, but I might be wrong).

Anyway, we need a reason to go 20 ranger on an AA, it's a shame to waste that capstone^^ (maybe fixing it to actually increase your attack speed by 25%, too...reload speed is not affected from what I recall and it ends up being a 12-13% instead...)

[Brennie]

I'd like to scratch AA as a ranger PrE and just leave it as an Elf/H.Elf PrE

Then come up with some other PrE for Rangers that doesn't focus on one of their specific Combat Styles. Maybe something like Beastmaster or Highland Stalker or some PrE dedicated specifically to Favored Enemies.

Race PrEs as things different than Class PrEs opens up better options and possible synergies while not punishing a class for taking it.

Aesop

H-elf 20 ranger with full AA and full (Non sucktastic) Deepwood Sniper... *drool*

This shouldn't be any more unbalanced than full AA and Kensai III longbow, or other synergistic combos. This was also something that i had concerns with, when hearing about the proposed Racial PrEs no longer being carbon copies of Class-cased PrEs.

However, given that AA is already 'done', this is probably going to end up being low priority compared to creating PrEs for races that have none. I certainly hope it won't, since elves need as many positive balancing factors as possible, but I'm cynical at this point (Frankly, I have no idea how they plan to knock out so many PrEs at the same time, when they have been barely trickling in over the past few years, but thats another discussion altogether)

(Forgive my typing, I'm recovering from an eye surgery from earlier this week, and it is making my typing skills and self-corrections rather inadequate)

[barecm]

Step One:

Rangers should not have both melee AND ranged free feats. So step one is to force a split at lvl 6 to go either ranged path or melee path. That can tie into choosing Tempest or AA / Deepwood, but the split needs to happen so that each path can be boosted without overpowering the class. Plus, it follows the traditional rules of DnD.

Step Two:

As I said, step two would be to boost each path. I would like to see a ranged stance similar to power attack and a twf stance that is similar to power attack but maybe boosts offhand damage / double strike chances sacrificing "to hit" in both cases.

Step 3:

As stated throughout this post is more spells. The ranger spell suck. No cute way to put it. There are really only a handful of spells that are worth while and pretty much every lvl 20 ranger has the exact same spells in their list as the next. Maybe matching some spells to compliment the ranged or melee paths.

Step 4:

Quiver love. My biggest thought for improvement is making some high lvl and/or epic quivers. I don't think it should be too over powered, but perhaps make a quiver that adds 1d6 elemental damage (different quivers have different ones) and maybe Epic could add like silver or holy or something along with a slot. The only quiver worth having is the Abott Quiver and it is still something a lot of casual players have no chance of getting, let alone the upgraded version. The other quiver from the harbor series is bleh....

Step 5:

Make it more worth tempting to be a lvl 12+ ranger. The pure lvl 20 ranger has become less and less viable with zen archery and elf AA builds along with the ranger splash for tempest. I would like to see something for the higher lvl rangers and reworking the capstone. It currently is not all that awesome that you wont mind giving it up for extra damage you can get multiclassing. Also ties in with better lvl 3/4 spells.

[NaturalHazard]

Step One:

Rangers should not have both melee AND ranged free feats. So step one is to force a split at lvl 6 to go either ranged path or melee path. That can tie into choosing Tempest or AA / Deepwood, but the split needs to happen so that each path can be boosted without overpowering the class. Plus, it follows the traditional rules of DnD.

Step Two:

As I said, step two would be to boost each path. I would like to see a ranged stance similar to power attack and a twf stance that is similar to power attack but maybe boosts offhand damage / double strike chances sacrificing "to hit" in both cases.

.

Quite a few rangers are having trouble with too hit in epics, this might discourage people even more about taking rangers into epics. Whats special about rangers? what makes them different than most other physical damage classes? one thing in DDO is that they have both 2wf and decent range and can specialise in more in one than the other but every ranger has manyshot and any ranger has the twf feats. Take that away and they lose what little lustre that they had.

I like the idea about adding some more useful spells though. But I think some of your ideas will ultimately be a nerf and I don't like nerfs and limmiting options, In not going with the *traditional* D&D way with the rangers paths I think DDO actually did something right.

[Aesop]

Step One:

Rangers should not have both melee AND ranged free feats. So step one is to force a split at lvl 6 to go either ranged path or melee path. That can tie into choosing Tempest or AA / Deepwood, but the split needs to happen so that each path can be boosted without overpowering the class. Plus, it follows the traditional rules of DnD.

Step Two:

As I said, step two would be to boost each path. I would like to see a ranged stance similar to power attack and a twf stance that is similar to power attack but maybe boosts offhand damage / double strike chances sacrificing "to hit" in both cases.

Step 3:

As stated throughout this post is more spells. The ranger spell suck. No cute way to put it. There are really only a handful of spells that are worth while and pretty much every lvl 20 ranger has the exact same spells in their list as the next. Maybe matching some spells to compliment the ranged or melee paths.

Step 4:

Quiver love. My biggest thought for improvement is making some high lvl and/or epic quivers. I don't think it should be too over powered, but perhaps make a quiver that adds 1d6 elemental damage (different quivers have different ones) and maybe Epic could add like silver or holy or something along with a slot. The only quiver worth having is the Abott Quiver and it is still something a lot of casual players have no chance of getting, let alone the upgraded version. The other quiver from the harbor series is bleh....

Step 5:

Make it more worth tempting to be a lvl 12+ ranger. The pure lvl 20 ranger has become less and less viable with zen archery and elf AA builds along with the ranger splash for tempest. I would like to see something for the higher lvl rangers and reworking the capstone. It currently is not all that awesome that you wont mind giving it up for extra damage you can get multiclassing. Also ties in with better lvl 3/4 spells.

3 4 & 5 sound about right.

steps 1 and 2 I'm not sure about overall.

Rangers should have pets similar to Arti pets (though those still need some tweaks to be good)

How about a modification of that.

improve both paths overall but make it so you chose one as primary and the secondary path you get at a lesser level...or rather not full power.


Maybe instead of the current spread:

1. Bow Strength
2.TWF Rapid Shot
6. ITWF Many Shot
12. GTWF Precise Shot Improved Precise Shot

we make 2 path and two lesser paths

Greater Path Archery

2. Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
6. Many Shot, Bow Strength
12. Improved Precise Shot, Precise Shot

Greater Path TWF

2. TWF, TWD
6. ITWF, ITWD
12. GTWF, GTWD

and take half those bonuses and make lesser paths that the ranger gets when he chooses the other greater path.

Lesser path Archery

2. Point Blank Shot
6. Rapid Shot
12. Many Shot

Lesser Path TWF

2. TWF
6. TWD
12. ITWF


This way the ranger still gets a decent balance of benefits but can focus outside of specific PrEs... If I had my way Rangers would have a PrE that wasn't revolving around their specific Combat Style that could be chosen.

As for the specific PrEs

Tempest should have full off hand strength damage added into it and something to improve their defensive abilities perhaps a Shield Mitigation bonus.

AA should be removed and made just a Racial PrE and a new Ranger PrE should be added in preferably something that improves an Animal Companion aspect or something that emphasizes their FE.

DWS should get some severe attention and become an actual full PrE with good overall benefits.

Aesop

[Ravoc-DDO]

The name "Ranger" has nothing to do with the function of "ranged combat." It derives from "ranging" as in traveling, not shooting. The class has been named "ranger" since long before there was any association between the class and archery. As you probably realize, it was lifted from LotR's rangers (none of whom showed any especial interest in archery.

As for DDO specifically, there is nothing to indicate the devs ever expected rangers to be the best archers. They actually deviated from p&p design to make sure even archer focused rangers had melee capability.

Then why the bow class icon?

[noinfo]

Then why the bow class icon?

For the same reason my Barb has an axe one yet uses a Great Sword. Because thats what they chose.

[noinfo]

Step One:

Rangers should not have both melee AND ranged free feats. So step one is to force a split at lvl 6 to go either ranged path or melee path. That can tie into choosing Tempest or AA / Deepwood, but the split needs to happen so that each path can be boosted without overpowering the class. Plus, it follows the traditional rules of DnD.

Step Two:

As I said, step two would be to boost each path. I would like to see a ranged stance similar to power attack and a twf stance that is similar to power attack but maybe boosts offhand damage / double strike chances sacrificing "to hit" in both cases.


The problem is that the game does not follow traditional rules of DND even closely in most areas. If we dropped enhancements and PRE completely then maybe Rangers would be dangerous having ranged and melee. But in this game it is the enhancements that make a class powerful and the ranger ones are less than stellar.

Your Step 1. already happens in reality when they choose their PRE they must go either ranged or melee even if elf so I don't believe this arguement floats.

[Ravoc-DDO]

For the same reason my Barb has an axe one yet uses a Great Sword. Because thats what they chose.
You're using a great sword because that piece is heavily OP and should never have existed in the first place. Absolute weapons are abominations in a game that should strive for versatility.

[Aesop]

Then why the bow class icon?

that stupid icon has caused far too many of these conversations.


Turbine please change the icon to a Cross Hair Icon instead. or something else.

Aesop

[noinfo]

You're using a great sword because that piece is heavily OP and should never have existed in the first place. Absolute weapons are abominations in a game that should strive for versatility.

Thank you for telling me what I should use, I will keep it in mind. Sorry even an eSOS is not the only weapon in game particulary unless you have an unlimited supply of devil/demons ruin crystals.

Please keep to the topic of rangers as per my OP.

[Vormaerin]

Then why the bow class icon?

By that reasoning, fighters are supposed to be sword and board and paladins should fight with fists. :rolleyes:

[NaturalHazard]

By that reasoning, fighters are supposed to be sword and board and paladins should fight with fists. :rolleyes:

And bards have to wait till they get the mad lute before they can even hit anything :D.


Duuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhh *drools*............ buuut duuuuhhhh symbol thingy has a bow on it, it means bow........... so you have to use a bow 24/7...............duuuuuuuuhhhhhhhh yeah. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Aashrym]

And bards have to wait till they get the mad lute before they can even hit anything :D.

We need an ML4 version. The irked banjo. :D