Somewhat confused as to purpose of Epic Templar's Docent

[sirgog]

The item is here: http://i.imgur.com/XvdNi.jpg

+6, DR 5/evil, SR 30, Light Guard (100%, 1d6 Light damage), Radiance Guard (15%, 4d6 Light damage plus long duration blindness, rednamed and higher immune), Blue Slot.

My question is - as this is clearly guard-oriented armor, why does it have the +6 enhancement bonus at all?

For most people, the +6 AC will have absolutely no effect. But for players with a borderline AC (say someone that hits 85 in an Epic Red Dragonscale Docent and is thus at 82 in this one), being missed occasionally will lower the effectiveness of the guards.

It's not AC armor (as it does not have Reinforced Plating at all, so the very rare WF that cares about AC is much better off in Cannith-crafted '+5 of Reinforced Plating 3'). So I actually think it would be (marginally) stronger for its apparent purpose if the '+6' mutation was removed entirely.

For most people it would not matter, but for the minority of WF that have a marginal AC, it would give them more options.

[RedDragonScale]

Because by the Epic Level Handbook's rules, for a weapon or armor to be considered "Epic" it MUST have at least a +6 Enhancement Bonus.

[TheDearLeader]

And also, as a result, increases durability and hardness?

[sirgog]

Because by the Epic Level Handbook's rules, for a weapon or armor to be considered "Epic" it MUST have at least a +6 Enhancement Bonus.

Or +11 equivalent in other effects. Like every Greensteel weapon of tier 2 or higher probably does.

[MrCow]

The general rule of thumb that Genasi tries to stick by when making docents off of matching armor (since ~Update 1):


If it derived from a robe or outfit, give it no Enhancement Bonus to armor.
Examples: Flamefrost Docent, Infused Chaos Docent, Diabloist's Docent, Docent of Shadow

If it derived from light armor, medium armor, or heavy armor, give it an Enhancement Bonus to armor.
Examples: Bladesmark Docent, Gorgon Docent, Mournlode Docent

This is in contrast to when Graal did the itemization of earlier DDO, where every Docent that was magical was expected to at least have a +1 Enhancement Bonus to armor (Robe of Acid vs. Docent of Acid).

[bbqzor]

As the guard itself applies a miss chance, I think its fair to assume anyone in the armor will, at some level, want to be missed. Were it solely damage guards, maybe I'd feel otherwise, but with Radiance Guard generally its the blindness portion which is useful.

Also as an aside, I think its somewhat of a mistake to have "no ac" and "max ac" itemization. DDO is one of the few rare games where you can mix and match items to arrive at a broad range of values. With an impending AC pass coming, I'd rather hedge my bets that the binary all or nothing situation will receive some mitigation in the future, and stick to what is both the PnP and DDO standard thus far, with Epic items being +6. As was mentioned, it affects the durability values, and gives people who want it a way to obtain more moderate value stats for different occasions.

I'd be far more interested in seeing AC items paired with things like Threat modifiers, than worrying about Guard items also granting nominal AC values. Being missed even if you have guards isn't so bad, it just means the fight is longer in real time but will offer the same procs/combat total. But holding threat while trying for a high AC tends to be far more closely related, and hard to do. Just a thought.

[sirgog]

As the guard itself applies a miss chance, I think its fair to assume anyone in the armor will, at some level, want to be missed. Were it solely damage guards, maybe I'd feel otherwise, but with Radiance Guard generally its the blindness portion which is useful.

Also as an aside, I think its somewhat of a mistake to have "no ac" and "max ac" itemization. DDO is one of the few rare games where you can mix and match items to arrive at a broad range of values. With an impending AC pass coming, I'd rather hedge my bets that the binary all or nothing situation will receive some mitigation in the future, and stick to what is both the PnP and DDO standard thus far, with Epic items being +6. As was mentioned, it affects the durability values, and gives people who want it a way to obtain more moderate value stats for different occasions.

I'd be far more interested in seeing AC items paired with things like Threat modifiers, than worrying about Guard items also granting nominal AC values. Being missed even if you have guards isn't so bad, it just means the fight is longer in real time but will offer the same procs/combat total. But holding threat while trying for a high AC tends to be far more closely related, and hard to do. Just a thought.

Radiance is somewhat of a special guard, however, IMO.

Consider a WF rogue with some AC (perhaps the classic Hurtlocker build, which while outdated now still does perform). That build would probably use max-AC armor (Red Scale Docent, DT or Cannith-crafted +5 Reinforced of Nimbleness if they don't have Red yet) in situations where staying alive is the priority.

When they want to kill stuff fast, they want something like a 0 AC Epic Templar's Docent, then to get in the middle of a bunch of mobs. Radiance Guard's blindness effect is a huge DPS increase in this case - but it's much better if you are being hit on a 5 than if you are being hit only on an 11.

I'm not that fussed as I don't have a Hurtlocker or anything like it (and will not wear this armor on any of my toons except maybe very situationally). Just thought that this armor seemed a little weird in a way that other Epic armors that have some AC but are not max AC (say the Blademark's Docent) don't. On the Blademark, the +6 is never a penalty - on this armor, it situationally will be one.

[Momsboys]

How did you get the epic one....?

[Flavilandile]

How did you get the epic one....?

he probably asked

[Yan_PL]

How did you get the epic one....?

thanks to Kookie :) he was running around dropping stacks of u13 items; he included epic docent in them.

As for actual docent: it better gets some reinforced plating, as it was derived from mithral full plate with +9 AC before enhancement bonus. If we want docnt and armor to match, this needs to be "AC docent" too.

don't you guys think that DR 5/evil is a bit underpowered? especially that there exist blademark docent that gives dr 5/epic or few full plates with DR 5/-. o that warchanter gets DR 5/- song, or stalwarts get DR 6/- for shield use. Or that major raid bossess hit you with evil aligned weapons anyway.

[Solmage]

As the guard itself applies a miss chance, I think its fair to assume anyone in the armor will, at some level, want to be missed. Were it solely damage guards, maybe I'd feel otherwise, but with Radiance Guard generally its the blindness portion which is useful.

You'd be assuming wrongly I think.

You want this armour for only one of two purposes, to tank, and thus have the light damage go off all the time, doing purple numbers thanks to a FvS' champion ability, or to blind creatures so you can get sneak attacks, not because you don't want to get hit. In both instances, you want to be hit, a lot.

[bbqzor]

You'd be assuming wrongly I think.

You want this armour for only one of two purposes, to tank, and thus have the light damage go off all the time, doing purple numbers thanks to a FvS' champion ability, or to blind creatures so you can get sneak attacks, not because you don't want to get hit. In both instances, you want to be hit, a lot.

There are much better tanking/dps/threat options, purple numbers or not. And even in that case, generally speaking the AC value on this isn't enough to make any boss level mob miss any more than it would otherwise as the OP has also pointed out.

As for a rogue trying to blind while under attack in order to sneak attack, perhaps. My experience has been that under such conditions on my rogue, I'd still rather have the AC. As I said before, having the AC does NOT affect how many hits (thats hits, not swings) it takes to proc, and thus it does not affect how many HP you lose before the radiance guard shows up. All the AC does is slow down how fast those hits occur in real time. More real time in a clutch situation is generally better, as it allows a player more opportunities to react, use potions, maneuver, etc.

Yes, if the blind landed faster from never being missed, you could start DPSing faster, but then you'd also be suffering damage faster. Generally, slowing things down so you have more options is more appealing to me. However thats my opinion, and perhaps most people feel the other way. If so, that's fine I can't say I'm not an outlier on this in any respect.

But I can say I do not like the idea of "no ac" and "max ac" itemization polarities, because it means the Devs would basically be making character build choices for you, and as I said before I prefer the more gray-scale approach where moderate values exist for those who want them. YMMV, and all that, but I strongly feel its not as clean cut a binary choice as its being presented. Especially in Epic content where this item is from, the AC even on a rogue won't "hurt" by causing misses, but if you drop down to do some lower level stuff for favor, to help guildies, etc... having the AC there can be nice. Why take away options? My 2 cents.

[Auran82]

It's one of those things that really highlights the issues with the AC system as it stands, and really illustrates why other MMOs use things like 'armour rating' mitigating certain amounts of damage (translates to DR in DDO I guess) while having other stats to determine the chance to dodge/parry etc. While also, having everything scale in parts of a percentage point.

The D20 system works well enough in PnP as it's easy to calculate quickly, in an MMO where things are constantly changing (and realistically, you want to constantly have new stuff to strive for to improve your character) The Hit/miss system in use, where the minimum increase or decrease translates to +/- 5%.

This docent really isn't alone, any (endgame) item with some kind of bonus to AC that isn't the highest bonus possible, almost might as well not have that bonus at all. I really hope some kind of AC pass is coming fairly soon (I know it's been mentioned in the past that it is being discussed) as well as the general 'defense' system that characters have available to them. DR starts to look a bit silly when the max you can get is what, 40ish (been a while) and that is while you are doing nothing but hiding behind a shield.

I have some ideas on how to fix AC, but am currently waiting for it to get a "LETS TALK" thread, which I expect to quite literally explode.

[sirgog]

...
don't you guys think that DR 5/evil is a bit underpowered? especially that there exist blademark docent that gives dr 5/epic or few full plates with DR 5/-. o that warchanter gets DR 5/- song, or stalwarts get DR 6/- for shield use. Or that major raid bossess hit you with evil aligned weapons anyway.

LOB can't break DR/evil, although Harry, Suulo and many others can.

[Yan_PL]

LOB can't break DR/evil, although Harry, Suulo and many others can.

still, most LoB tanks nowadays will have more than that; either it's stalwart variant with 6/- from shield... or barb with their 7-9/- at 20... unless it's monk tank, but then again, won't be using something analogous to full plate... (then again, it's a docent, meaning WF monk could use it). two light guards make it rather desirable vs bosses (luckily they aren't another case of "I'm so blind i can't even see I'm CC'd", which always bothers me whenever i play with radiance assassins).

Bump the DR of epic version to 7-8/evil (armor as well). add reinforced plating +2 or +3.