LET'S TALK: Encumbrance

[MadFloyd]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

[Hafeal]

None.

Wouldn't mind at all.

[somenewnoob]

I never used it as a DM in any pnp game. Why, because it's just dumb.

It could go bye bye tomorrow and I wouldn't care one bit.

[KillEveryone]

I wouldn't notice.

If anything, the junk that gets put the collectables and crafting bags should be weightless since there is just soooo much we can or need to get.

[Dwarfo]

get rid of it! especially with ing/collectible bags not being weightless anymore.

[danotmano1998]

Losing encumberance altogether wouldn't hurt my feelings at all.

While I can understand that having SOMETHING to make str worthwhile on some builds is a good thing, to me encumberance is more of an annoyance than a feature.

[Eladiun]

None.

By all means.

[Aaxeyu]

Go ahead and remove it, it doesn't add anything at all.

[Ganolyn]

It's about as useful as permanent damage to items... as in not at all. Both could go bye-bye and I wouldn't miss them.

[Scraap]

Kill it. Good. Nice short talk.

Now back to the enhancements thread. Don't make me get the chain, rolled up news-paper, and caffeine drip again. :p

[Qzipoun]

Like spell components it adds flavor to the game.

You're running around on a high dex, low str halfling being dodgy and quick, then bam you get hit by symbol of weakness. Suddenly your ac drops, you need to alter your tactics

Just one example where it makes the game a little more 'complex' (in a good way)

What isn't good about it is useless stuff weighing you down. Gems, collectibles, ingredients, components etc. shouldn't affect your character's encumbrance

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Remove it. Just like spell components it doesn't add anything good to the game.

[Cam_Neely]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

the only 'encumbrance' that matters is the backpack slots. that is the limiting factor for a huge amount of players. Yes your str can be dropped and slow you down, but anytime that may happen when it matters, its a non-problem.

What isn't good about it is useless stuff weighing you down. Gems, collectibles, ingredients, components etc. shouldn't affect your character's encumbrance
so you want encumbrance to matter, but you want stuff you carry to have no weight?

[arjiwan]

I don't mind if I am getting encumbered on my Strength Dump Stat Cleric if I hoard lots of items, like heavy armors, great swords etc that I don't even need to use. Encumbrance is part of management for me. Too heavy for you? Remove those items, or use only the things you need, or add more Strength.

But what I do mind is, forcing encumbrance in ingredients. Because sadly, there are a lot of ingredients that are needed to be with you most of the times. Also with the House C quest? You can't even choose what ingredients to not get because it is auto collect.

[ArcaneMelee]

If it was worth dumping strength to gain significant defenses through dex, I would say Encumbrance plays an important role in balancing build choices.

As it is, though, there's no reason to "dump" strength in the current game, unless you're a new player that fell for the trap that is Weapon Finesse. But even for them, they'll learn their mistake soon enough, even without the penalty of Encumbrance.

[MaxwellEdison]

We already have a severe enough limitation on inventory just by the number of inventory slots a character has, the encumbrance on top of playing inventory Tetris has never really made much sense (aside from penalizing halfling dex builds more than being a dex build already does).

[Tobril]

Like spell components it adds flavor to the game.

You're running around on a high dex, low str halfling being dodgy and quick, then bam you get hit by symbol of weakness. Suddenly your ac drops, you need to alter your tactics

Just one example where it makes the game a little more 'complex' (in a good way)

What isn't good about it is useless stuff weighing you down. Gems, collectibles, ingredients, components etc. shouldn't affect your character's encumbrance


This.

[MeliCat]

It's quite arbitrary. I mean, like, yeah right I'm going to be carrying around 10 pieces of heavy armor, a bag full of trap parts and other bits and pieces. So why bother having an encumbrance mechanic as it's already insanely unrealistic? Playing Skyrim with more realistic loot vs weight considerations it was just annoying. D&D is about loot. Lots of different types of loot but more specifically LOTS of loot. If you were genuinely going to go full on yes to encumbrance then... no just please don't.

Encumbrance is not a huge deal - except that I need to put often a couple of stat points in str on characters I wouldn't normally bother doing so - and also bother to slot a +6 str item. But if you can do that I rarely feel annoyed by encumbrance. But it would be nice to have those stat points and slot back.

On a monk/monk splash where it pushes you out of stance that's a pain. Doesn't happen a lot and other effects cause that too. Mildly painful but again not that much of a big deal.

Verdict: meh.

[Hendrik]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

It is one of the thing's still tied to PnP in DDO - that has value to me.

You should get encumbered if you only have a low STR and want to carry a half to full TON of gear.

I would mind if it 'went away'.

Rather see Bags become weightless.

And I don't want to see "Spell Components: what value do the really have in DDO" thread MadFloyd. ;)

[smatt]

I don't like the idea to be honest... Sure maybe the bags should be as a bag of holding, but there should certainly be a limitation on low strength builds... Removing encumberance mechanic in total would cause the game to lose even more flavor IMO..... Just one more nail in the coffin of things you need to think about and consider...

[NytCrawlr]

Yep, this is an MMO, and it means squat here.

Be gone with it! :D

[Coldin]

I wouldn't mind at all if it was gone. We're already limited in inventory by how many bag spaces we have. I understand it has a good flavor aspect, but when ingredients and collectables can weigh so much, it's not something that can be easily manageable. At least in DnD, bags of holding, portable holes, and other storage items let players get around the carrying capacity rules.

[Tharlak]

It's about as useful as permanent damage to items... as in not at all. Both could go bye-bye and I wouldn't miss them.

This

[dkyle]

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

I wouldn't mind at all, and I think it's exactly what you should do.

[Missing_Minds]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

encumbered past participle, past tense of en·cum·ber (Verb)
Verb:
Restrict or burden (someone or something) in such a way that free action or movement is difficult.

-------------------------------------

It adds annoyance but honestly it is part of the game.

I've lost track of how often my monk (at low levels) or my arcane would get with an enfeeble ray and become encumbered. Which makes sense.

However....

The turn about is that the mobs are never encumbered nor does the environment ever stop them or slow them down like it does us.

Knee high water? Devs let the mobs move at full speed, but gimp players to half. This is when I normally pick up a book and slap the DM upside the head with it unless there is a darn good reason. Sorry, Mad, but the developers here do not have a good reason for this godmoding other than to be.... less than pleasant to players.

Let the Mobs attack from any situation, even the bottom of a late, while we PCs are stuck swimming. Again, godmoding for the sake of being less than pleasant to the players.

Mobile Casting feat is supposed to allow for 100% normal movement while casting. Players only get 65-75% movement.

Grease on the floor? Doesn't slow mobs down at all. Half of the grease effect and tactical play REMOVED.
Uphill and grease? Players can not move forward. Mobs ignore grease, go right on up without issue.

Uphill/downhill and ankle deep water. Players can't jump. ????

Also in this same vein, "harried" should be removed as well.

So if you are going to remove it, UTTERLY remove it. Either that or make it freaking work correctly on the mobs. Doing such would actually help to promote better tactical game play.

[DANTEIL]

I like encumbrance because it is consistent with PnP D&D, and we always had to worry about how much stuff our characters could carry.

However, in DDO, encumbrance has gotten to be kind of a joke because of the multitude of collectibles/tokens/barter items etc etc that the game has introduced. You would never see these kinds of things at these quantities in a PnP game.

So, I wouldn't mind if encumbrance stayed, but I think it should only be counted for actual gear (armor/weapons etc.). Collectibles, etc. (really, anything that can go in a bag) should be weightless.

[Sarisa]

I like it in that it retains the link to PnP D&D. However, being an MMO, being so heavily gear and consumable based, and with the heavy ingredient nature of the current game, I don't see it adding enough value to remain.

[NXPlasmid]

Get rid of it.

[Cyr]

It holds zero value.

We are not roleplaying and most of what we carry is not useful in quests, but outside of quests in the little 'systems' that you guys seem so found of spewing out.

[grodon9999]

it holds zero value in the game.

but you've gotta be kidding me if you think this issue is important enough for a "Let's talk" thread.

[Artos_Fabril]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'? Since our inventory is supposed to reside in bags of holding/portable holes, I can't see a good reason for it to encumber us.

If it is possible to become encumbered by worn equipment, or there is value in balancing new equipment by causing it to encumber characters or have very high weight, the encumbrance system itself should be retrained.

[Missing_Minds]

it holds zero value in the game.

but you've gotta be kidding me if you think this issue is important enough for a "Let's talk" thread.

Scroll up to my post. It could warrant a lets talk.

[Natashaelle]

Encumberance is useful for people's main equipped gear and loot etc, but as far as collectibles and ingredients are concerned, frankly, in a real RPG these would just be handwaved away into some sort of special area of nonspace where they only exist when you need them.

Nothing inside collectibles or ingredients bags etc should weigh anything, as they are effectively bags of holding anyway ; with the possible exception of gem bags, because gems count as loot.

Some GMs never bother with encumberance *ever*, which is quite understandable ; but I can't see that it should be totally meaningless, especially when it's a computer doing all the tough micromanagement pocket calculating involved ;)

[Hendrik]

the only 'encumbrance' that matters is the backpack slots. that is the limiting factor for a huge amount of players. Yes your str can be dropped and slow you down, but anytime that may happen when it matters, its a non-problem.

so you want encumbrance to matter, but you want stuff you carry to have no weight?

Insignificant stuff, yes, should not matter. 100 gems, 100 balls of bat guano, 100 twigs, 100 Drowshood should not factor into Encumbrance like carrying 25 suits of armor should.

[dkyle]

And I don't want to see "Spell Components: what value do the really have in DDO" thread MadFloyd. ;)

Well then, in the interest of preempting the need for such a thread, so you don't have to see it, I'll just give my feedback on that issue right here:

The trivial-cost spell components are stupid, annoying, pointless, and actually contrary to the 3.5 rules. Just give us a spell component pouch. We can carry it next to our spellbook (i.e., not in our inventory). And use the same rules 3.5 uses: trivial cost components are assumed to be contained in the spell pouch. Heck, the spells could even get their "unique" material components back in the spell description, instead of the generic level-based ones. More flavor, less hassle.

[Missing_Minds]

Since our inventory is supposed to reside in bags of holding/portable holes, I can't see a good reason for it to encumber us.

Not quite. Only the last two, and as such those bags and ALL contents held within there should be a fixed weight. (they aren't currently. they are just treated like a normal bag.)

*waits for someone to mention the paradox of putting a bag of holding into a bag of holding.*

edit: I have no idea what store bought character bag space is considered. Luggage or magical holding?

[Bolo_Grubb]

Like spell components it adds flavor to the game.

You're running around on a high dex, low str halfling being dodgy and quick, then bam you get hit by symbol of weakness. Suddenly your ac drops, you need to alter your tactics

Just one example where it makes the game a little more 'complex' (in a good way)

What isn't good about it is useless stuff weighing you down. Gems, collectibles, ingredients, components etc. shouldn't affect your character's encumbrance
+1 to this

[Qzipoun]

so you want encumbrance to matter, but you want stuff you carry to have no weight?

[Edited, not worth the point]

[Hellllboy]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?


This is the greatest suggestion since the Wheel! :)

Please remove it. Inventory should dictate what you can or can't carry.

[TPICKRELL]

I'd vote that it goes away.

I don't use it in PnP because its such a pain to track. While in terms of game mechanics, it makes sense and it provides a reality check on the amount of kit that can be carried around, it detracts from the playability of the game.

DDO uses Inventory Slots and Bank Slots to limit the amount of kit that is available. Encumberance adds another dimension on top of those limits that primarily comes into play as an annoyance factor not a reality check.

The mechanics of DDO inventory make encumbereance more of an issue that it has any right to be. For example, in order to craft you need to move your crafting bag (that after the last patch may weigh 500 pounds) into your inventory so that you can open it. In PnP you would just go to your permanent storage location, take the items you need out without trying to stick the bag in your backpack and move on.

Encumberance is made both annoying and useless by the DDO's inventory mechanics and further complicated by the seemingly endless number of ingredients and collectibles that are in DDO.

Please get rid of it. It's reality check functions are limited and its annoyance factor is very high.

[Theolin]

the only thing it is useful to me for is when mobs do str damage and I dont' notice till I start moving slooooo.....w. It tells me to hit the restore scroll that is all. Otherwise it is mostly an annoyance(esp for baggable type stuff)

[bhgiant]

It is one of the thing's still tied to PnP in DDO - that has value to me.

You should get encumbered if you only have a low STR and want to carry a half to full TON of gear.

I would mind if it 'went away'.

Rather see Bags become weightless.
This. It makes the game more realistic and adds D&D flavor. I like that when I have a backpack clear full of junk, I might have to drop one of those full plates. I like that enfeeblement makes my sorc run slower. Don't get rid of it, please. I know you're going for a simpler, newbie friendly, more streamlined approach for the expansion, but getting rid of things like this is like not putting citizens in cities. They add no function but add to the immersion.

DO get rid of bag weight. THAT needs to go. It's a freaking bad of holding for crying out loud! That stuff we put in it isn't even in this dimension anymore.

[Hendrik]

Well then, in the interest of preempting the need for such a thread, so you don't have to see it, I'll just give my feedback on that issue right here:

The trivial-cost spell components are stupid, annoying, pointless, and actually contrary to the 3.5 rules. Just give us a spell component pouch. We can carry it next to our spellbook (i.e., not in our inventory). And use the same rules 3.5 uses: trivial cost components are assumed to be contained in the spell pouch. Heck, the spells could even get their "unique" material components back in the spell description, instead of the generic level-based ones. More flavor, less hassle.

Then remove;

Eschew Materials Meta (then free feat swap for all casters)
Inscription Materials
Inscription Skill
Mess with Vendors
Mess with Classes

That does not sound like it has more flavor, sounds bland, boring, and just like everything else.

[Kmnh]

Kill it with fire!

[porq]

It's never added anything but annoyance to low strength characters, though I do like it because it reminds me of pnp and gives a little semblance of punishment for dumping str.


It is a penalty for casters, as it was in pnp too. Either find a place to put a strength item or suffer under the weight of all the gear you just have to have and be susceptible to enfeeblement.

A better fix would be cutting down the weight of the ingredient and collectable bags which is the single biggest gripe we have. Those seem to be treated as bags of holding or portable holes, which should max out at a certain fixed/negligible weight.

Would I care if encumbrance was removed? I wouldn't mind.
Would I care if it stayed? No, but fix the bag weight issues.

[Mithis]

Encumbrance should still exist for gear (armor, weapons, rings etc.) but should be eliminated for everything else IMO.

If it is completely eliminated then any mob that likes to drop ray of enfeeblement or the like would need to get looked at...

[Angelus_dead]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?
How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?
How about this:

Create a spell called Tenser's Floating Disc, which renders you immune to encumberance for 24 hours, and which unlike most buffs isn't removed on death. Then create clickies which cast this spell.

[MaximumCharisma]

I vote to get rid of it. It is nice in theory but a pain in practice. I for one have no clue how my Fighter manages to hotswap through all these khopeshes so quickly but I also would not have voted for crafting and other "MMO" type functions that we have in this game.

As an MMO, inventory space should be the limiting factor, not weight.

[Uska]

Dont want it to go away but the weight on some items should be either adjusted or elimated, weapons and armor should have weight most other items not really

[NytCrawlr]

The trivial-cost spell components are stupid, annoying, pointless, and actually contrary to the 3.5 rules. Just give us a spell component pouch. We can carry it next to our spellbook (i.e., not in our inventory). And use the same rules 3.5 uses: trivial cost components are assumed to be contained in the spell pouch. Heck, the spells could even get their "unique" material components back in the spell description, instead of the generic level-based ones. More flavor, less hassle.

A thousand and one times this! Please!

edit: Eschew Materials can go the way of the dodo too.

[Missing_Minds]

Will removing it reduce lag?

*someone had to. :)

[Captain_Wizbang]

Like spell components it adds flavor to the game.

You're running around on a high dex, low str halfling being dodgy and quick, then bam you get hit by symbol of weakness. Suddenly your ac drops, you need to alter your tactics

Just one example where it makes the game a little more 'complex' (in a good way)

What isn't good about it is useless stuff weighing you down. Gems, collectibles, ingredients, components etc. shouldn't affect your character's encumbrance

Agreed

[somenewnoob]

You know what definitely shouldn't have weight?

Madstone boots.

(glowers at Floyd)

[dunklezhan]

This is very likely not helpful feedback, however:

No.

[Thrudh]

I don't like the idea to be honest... Sure maybe the bags should be as a bag of holding, but there should certainly be a limitation on low strength builds... Removing encumberance mechanic in total would cause the game to lose even more flavor IMO..... Just one more nail in the coffin of things you need to think about and consider...

Yeah I don't like it removing it either... The only reason I give my Wizard any STR at all is because of encumberance...

Every 32 wizard will now be a 8/8/18/18/8/8 build.

[Razcar]

Get rid of it. Serves no purpose really. We are already magically carrying around so much equipment that it could fill an 18-wheeler.

[Phemt81]

I don't like the idea to be honest... Sure maybe the bags should be as a bag of holding, but there should certainly be a limitation on low strength builds... Removing encumberance mechanic in total would cause the game to lose even more flavor IMO..... Just one more nail in the coffin of things you need to think about and consider...

I agree with this.

Make all bags/jars/hireling folders etc. weight 0, but keep the system on.

[smatt]

You know what definitely shouldn't have weight?

Madstone boots.

(glowers at Floyd)


They won't because at most they will all be in the bank... :cool:

[EazyWeazy]

Yeah I don't like it removing it either... The only reason I give my Wizard any STR at all is because of encumberance...

Every 32 wizard will now be a 8/8/18/18/8/8 build.

Exactly. I'm amazed that this is a question even being asked...

[k1ngp1n]

PnP has encumbrance, we have inventory slots.

Encumbrance must die.

Basic spell components must die.

Weapon permanent damage must die.

[Angelus_dead]

Another option:

Make Encumberance apply to equipped items only, not things in inventory. Naturally the thresholds for being encumbered would be lowered way way down, and also there'd be an effective multiplier added to the weight of things in the hands as opposed to worn close to the core.

Basically the primary effect of that change is to make it so that Platemail + Ray Of Enfeeblement = Ouch. It would almost never trigger outside of that kind of situation.

[jcTharin]

I have an 8 base str cleric. that 8 base str was a mistake. lucky bulls strength is a class spell and it does not hurt at all to load it.

However needing to keep myself buffed with bulls strength AT ALL TIMES is getting really annoying.

That being said I would rather have them leave it alone, cause this is really only a problem for characters with a base str of 8, and I like strength damage being a weakness to pure casters.

[Dandonk]

I rarely think about encumbrance, but it does have some effects in game: Casters (divine and arcane both) have to allocate resources to STR in order to be able to carry all their stuff around. Whether this takes build points or gear slots, it's a tradeoff they have to do.
It also limits the amount of 6 str halfling monks in the game, which is nice.

I think it has some value, and like the dilemma it imposes on casters. Still, I'm not "married" to concept - the tradeoff is not so major in the end (and you'll still want STR to protect against helplessness from rays).

[GoldyGopher]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

OK, lets stop here.

Currently a "specific type" of character has an issue with Encumberance, because they are using STR as a dump stat. Making Encumberance go away is a bad idea, IMHO, because STR would become even more of a dump stat for these builds. It doesn't take much (a couple of points during a build and sloting a STR item) to make Encumberance a non-issue. The problem is these Min/Max uber builds lose some of thier uberness.

Improving the BANK UI and shared BANK space would also address this as well as making "INCREDIBLE FRELLING LARGE BAG" BTA as well.

[AMDarkwolf]

Hate being the devils advocate here, but I really think some of you should think this over alittle before u are so quick to dismiss it.

First off, without this mechanic, what use is there for any str, at all? That, basically means more stat points, more gear, etc for casters. Why care about str when you don't need it (Beyond getting helplessness by exhaust)

Also, monks: Its a part of playing a monk to watch your max weight. Being uncentered can be a very, very bad thing.

I really do think, do some point, it should be kept. It 'MEANS' something to watch your max weight, make sure your not a 6 str lugging around 6000lbs of gear, yet being totally unaffected by it?

Really think you should stop trying to make ddo wow part 2, stop trying to make it 'simplify everything' and keep to the basics of what made DDO what it is. Is it really worth selling out to gain 5 million temp accounts, or would you as a company, prefer 500k loyal lasting customers? (This is a small change, but it reflects much of what has been going on, either simplify the game to the point a potato can play it, yet on the other hand make much of the 'end game' too challenging for the competent, yet casual gamer, I think turbine should concentrate on the middle ground, where the game at least remotly reflected/resembled DND.)

[rtgr10]

I believe that taking the weight of the items will change the reality of the RPG. Some items should have zero weight, as spell components, collectible, scrolls - which by the way, should be in bags.
If you take all the weight of all items, will encourage monks, rogues and rangers who need it to ensure evasion.
Another problem that would generate would be that all casters would no longer worry about the attribute strength for nothing, believe it rather unbalances the game.
One suggestion .... I think the space available in the inventory should be measured by strength and not favor.
I would leave anyway to encumbrance, but it should implement the bags of holding, so famous in the D&D for not having any weight for items. And the possibility of placing an item inside of it as armor.

[PNellesen]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

Without some VASTLY expanded bank space or "housing" or some other kind of off-character storage, then it brings no value at all, and I would be quite happy to see it go away.

[danotmano1998]

For those of who say that encumbrance adds flavor, I can totally understand that.
I even agree to a small extent.

It would be fine to leave in if every single ingredient/collectible/junk was entirely weightless.

Or if the bags worked as bags of holding so when we are forced to pick up 4,000 tiny goblets, 8,000 cow udders, and 38,000 kobold babies just to make that one epic item it wouldn't negatively affect our game play.


But am I going to suggest you guys touch the bag scripting?
NO WAY!!!
I just got my gem bags to work again after weeks of them being broke. Leave them be, thanks.


So... Yes, remove encumbrance. Just... dump it. Then we won't complain QUITE so much when we are forced to pick up 80 million collectibles and ingredients and essences like we do now.

[Sardonica]

I have a level 20 cleric that is a 28 pt. build, min-maxed. Strength is 8 base + 6 item. My guild does not have +2 stat shrines (and guild buffs get wiped on death anyhow). I have to carry a lot of spell components and scrolls to function well in higher content. During the last few weeks when bags and jars and quivers weighed only 1 lb. each (i.e. zero content weight) I was fine; it took my picking up several heavy armors to go from light to medium encumbrance. My cleric is slow and has low reflex save under the best of conditions; any additional encumbrance hurts everyone in my ability to react.

When I logged in yesterday, I was still at light encumbrance, but right at the threshold. I see no reason why containers cannot be magic and nullify the weight of their contents. I do not mind encumbrance, really I do not, but all these collectibles, ingredients, cookies and ammo add up. If I could nullify the weight of 9 levels of spell components and scrolls, so much the better! As it stands today, I have no chance of carrying another shield without eating a +2 strength tome.

[sweez]

None.

Wouldn't mind at all.

What he said.

[le_goat]

My halfling monk would hug you?


as i see it, collectables, gems , tools , spell components, etc.. should have no weight.
on that subject, why do we collect gems? why aren't they treated like plat ? I mean there is no use for them as far as i can tell but to sell them for plat. essentially plat we have to carry.why even have them in game?

the only thing carrying weight capacity does is penalize people with low strength. or even those with an arbitrary 3/4 carrying capacity. which no other race has.

[Sarisa]

Not dumping STR will still be important, just a bit less so. Becoming helpless whenever an Arcane Skeleton in the desert even looks at you is NOT fun.

[Chai]

In P&P encumbrance is great. It adds to the player dilema as they cant carry everything they would certainly want right off the bat so they have to choose. They also have to drop stuff in some cases to perform certain feats or keep abilities active.

In an MMO such as DDO encumbrance starts to lose its value for a few reasons.

1. Melee carrying 2 of every perfect weapon for all desired scenarios in the game is already unrealistic.

2. Having backpack slots that you can put one gem into OR one two handed sword into, is already unrealistic.

3. Higher str characters being able to carry tens of thousands of pounds and evade + use monk powers is unrealistic. Theres weight, and theres displacement.


So I feel one of two things needs to happen.

1. Enforce it religiously and realistically. Peopel currently carrying pick up trucks worth of weapons and ingredients will have to pick and choose.

2. Go with the "suspension of disbelief" approach, and all of our characters will now remain "link" from Legend of Zelda - walking around with a ladder, raft, 16 bombs, several wands, 3 swords, a bow and a thousand arrows, 2 boomerangs, and millions of gold pieces.

[karl_k0ch]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

I play mainly melees. As such, they always have decent enough Strength to carry everything they want. The limiting factor in regards to items is inventory and bank spaces.

I wouldn't notice. I wouldn't mind.

[bbqzor]

Encumbrance is a part of DnD and I wouldn't want to see it just wholly removed. Things like Symbol of Weakness or Ray of Enfeeblement are just as core as something like Magic Missile.

That said, arbitrary item spam we have to hoard is not part of DnD. Like, the numerous collectibles and ingredients DDO artificially says you need to gather. Or Spell Components, which in PnP are covered by a 2 lb spell pouch.

IMO you don't need to mess with encumbrance. You need to make all those "pointless" items we need 1000s of simply by virtue of it being an MMO weightless. Problem solved, flavor retained.

New challenges are a prime example. Number of parts needed per item? 1000s, check. Amount they weight? Lots, check. ... Why?

Keep the original games parallels and the fun and danger which goes with them. But be able to distinguish that as separate from an artificial expansion system where each time 100s of lbs are added to each character in the form of more quest material.

If it goes in a bag, or is a spell component, it should weigh nothing. Everything else, can leave as is. Happy Happy Joy Joy achieved. That is all.

[grayham]

Get rid of it.

Objectively speaking it's good for RPG's to consider it, but I don't think it brings anything to DDO.

[cforce]

I'd be happy to see encumbrance just disappear. Never used it in my PnP campaigns because: fighting stuff is fun, packing your bag is not.

While we're at it, get rid of spell components. The *only* thing they add for me is to make me annoyed once or twice a year. Never tracked those in PnP either, for the same reason.

[Psiandron]

You know my initial thoughts were pretty much the same as everyone else's, but I got to thinking about my sorc and him getting popped by 'ray of enfeeblement' and going from a 12 Str to like a 3, which meant he wasn't able to even drag around the 150 odd pounds of stuff he was carrying. That's precisely what the spell is for. Yeah, it drops a melees to hit, but it can be far more devastating to a caster.

Then I read this:


The turn about is that the mobs are never encumbered nor does the environment ever stop them or slow them down like it does us.

Knee high water? Devs let the mobs move at full speed, but gimp players to half. This is when I normally pick up a book and slap the DM upside the head with it unless there is a darn good reason. Sorry, Mad, but the developers here do not have a good reason for this godmoding other than to be.... less than pleasant to players.

Let the Mobs attack from any situation, even the bottom of a late, while we PCs are stuck swimming. Again, godmoding for the sake of being less than pleasant to the players.

Mobile Casting feat is supposed to allow for 100% normal movement while casting. Players only get 65-75% movement.

Grease on the floor? Doesn't slow mobs down at all. Half of the grease effect and tactical play REMOVED.
Uphill and grease? Players can not move forward. Mobs ignore grease, go right on up without issue.

Uphill/downhill and ankle deep water. Players can't jump. ????

Also in this same vein, "harried" should be removed as well.

So if you are going to remove it, UTTERLY remove it. Either that or make it freaking work correctly on the mobs. Doing such would actually help to promote better tactical game play.

Sums it all up brilliantly! Well said sir.

So, I say either remove it, or make it so that everyone, PCs and Mobs and bosses, has to deal with it and other deleterious effects.

Also, as you guys have committed to making us carry around so much miscellaneous junk, i.e. collectables, ingredients, essences, components, items proving that we flagged for 87 different raids, etc., how about making sure that all this stuff fits into one bag or another and making the whole of it absolutely weightless.

I know, I know. Your thinking, "but we make money seeling you guys extra bank and inventory tabs."

I understand that, but firstly, we do have lots of other stuff to tote around. Often things that we really want to have. Secondly, we all want/need inventory space so that we can haul our ill-booten goty back to town. Thirdly, in business you have to sell people things without making them feel like they're continually getting fleeced, or eventually you tick them off and lose customers.

EDIT: I forgot, if you do keep encumberance all weights should be converted to the equivalent weight in gold pieces. ;) :rolleyes:

[rtgr10]

2. Go with the "suspension of disbelief" approach, and all of our characters will now remain "link" from Legend of Zelda - walking around with a ladder, raft, 16 bombs, several wands, 3 swords, a bow and a thousand arrows, 2 boomerangs, and millions of gold pieces.
Agreed. Its D&D guys... please!

[Hordo]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

Not a problem...EXCEPT.....


If someone picks up my soulstone they'd better become encumbered for care of my soulstone is a heavy burden for them to bear*!

;)



*especially while I'm busy /piking the quest :p

[MadFloyd]

You know what definitely shouldn't have weight?

Madstone boots.

(glowers at Floyd)

It only took 53 posts. :)

Post by Genasi re madstone boots (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4281197&postcount=272)

[Ganolyn]

Another option:

Make Encumberance apply to equipped items only, not things in inventory. Naturally the thresholds for being encumbered would be lowered way way down, and also there'd be an effective multiplier added to the weight of things in the hands as opposed to worn close to the core.

Basically the primary effect of that change is to make it so that Platemail + Ray Of Enfeeblement = Ouch. It would almost never trigger outside of that kind of situation.


Oh, yeah, that's what we need: Yet another reason for not wearing heavy armor.

I'm not actually against encumbrance, just excess weight of items. You can carry a large light canoe on your back and still be encumbered. Encumberance should be about the amount of stuff you carry, not the weight of it. Being realistic on weight in this game is silly considering we all carry the contents of a small house with us at all times.

[nivarch]

Inventory management is something that exists in almost all RPG. However most games fail to do it properly.

DDO is one of those games: inventory is a total mess.

Encumberance is a dated mechanism that doesn't add any value to the game. It just creates tediousness (having to sell every other quest) and can be frustrating. Frustrating is not fun.


I would really like to see it completly removed from the game.

[Psiandron]

If someone picks up my soulstone they'd better become encumbered for care of my soulstone is a heavy burden for them to bear*!


Sorry Hordo, but I was under the impression that your soulstone was smooth from wear and had, in fact, become pocket-sized.

:D

Actually, I think my own is moving that direction. :o

[Vilhelm_der_Toller]

Loose the weight. Keep the mass. Minimize the laws of physics being broken.

I'd side with eliminating the weight of items in bags.

I'd also like to see some of the collapsing floor traps have a weight point trigger. An game mechanic reason to keep light or go single file.

[zeonardo]

Inventory slots are enough limitation already.
I think it has some sort of flavor for monks and low str builds. They should have some negative effect when hit by a str damaging spell. Or just make those str damaging spell dmg some CON instead. IDC.

Spell components add to the game too IMHO. There's a Feat for that if you think it bothers you too much. The only thing we're really really missing is spell components bag. Seriously. ASAP.

[Alexandryte]

Letting loot rot because you dont have X Strength to make sure you aren't encumbered to a point where it affects evasion, centered, or AC is not a fun mechanic.

Its one thing if you are hit with a stat effect and your STR dips too low, its entirely another where you have to make the choice of actually collecting your ill gotten loot (because who just asks monsters nicely for this stuff anymore) and being able to continue the quest at full steam.

Bags are a primary culprit. Though personally, if you have the inventory slots (and have paid for extras) you should be able to take advantage of them no matter what goes in there.

That's what Bags of Holding and Handy Haversacks are for, and what I was under the impression we were using to hold onto a bunch of suits of armor and weapons before we visit the vendor. (One of the bags uses a broken portable hole leading me to believe we use the above as our means to carry all out stuff)

[darksol23]

Personally, I wouldn't like it being removed.

It's already a bit disturbing that players carry around a small castles worth of armament and bank vaults worth of collectables and coins in their packs. Removing it completely will encourage STR dump builds more. Sounds like another easy button to me. :(

Ray of Enfeeblement, Wave of Fatigue/Exhastion, Caster mob AI, Stat Damage, Monk Centered'ness, Evasion and more would all need to be looked at. I know I've personally been adversely affected by encumbrance when weakened by enemy mobs. I actually liked that encumbrance mattered sometimes...

[Galeria]

Removing encumbrance would be great. I can't think of anything it adds to the game.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

It only took 53 posts. :)

Post by Genasi re madstone boots (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4281197&postcount=272)

Who won the betting pool? :p

[Dragaer]

I'm encumbered that AC hasn't been discussed with yet....you would rather talk about encumberance? Really? :cool:

[Hordo]

Sorry Hordo, but I was under the impression that your soulstone was smooth from wear and had, in fact, become pocket-sized.

:D

Actually, I think my own is moving that direction. :o

It has become smooth from wear, but over the millenia such a powerful artifact as my soulstone has been possessed by many, but none may keep it for long...or at least after I get back from Wal-Mart.

[Cauthey]

Please do not remove encumbrance. I would associate removing encumbrance all together as an Easy Button that I do not want.

Managing inventory and weight is a part of the game. It's a real reason to prevent casters from dump stat'ing Strength. It also makes sense in terms of loot haul: "Hey barb, I keep finding all of these heavy shields and full plate in the loot chests. Would you mind carrying them for me, please? I'll trade ya for the scrolls, maybe?"

The only caveat is the collectables that pile up. It would be nice if these that are often stacked in the 100s or 1000s didn't weigh so much. However, even if you decide to keep these as they are, I would still be happier with encumbrance than without.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Like spell components it adds flavor to the game.

You're running around on a high dex, low str halfling being dodgy and quick, then bam you get hit by symbol of weakness. Suddenly your ac drops, you need to alter your tactics

Just one example where it makes the game a little more 'complex' (in a good way)

What isn't good about it is useless stuff weighing you down. Gems, collectibles, ingredients, components etc. shouldn't affect your character's encumbrance

This. Flavor and complexity is one of the BIG reasons I don't get bored with DDO compared to other MMOs .. back from SWTOR after not even a month.

[dopey69]

rip incumbrance out of there like starting a lawnmower :)

[Cyr]

It only took 53 posts. :)

Post by Genasi re madstone boots (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4281197&postcount=272)

Great.

Now since you are the head of the team I would like an answer to a simple question?

Why are you having numerous melee focused nerfs coming into the game with U13 when you stated that you wanted to buff melee considerably with the enhancement rework to boost their effectiveness compared to casters?

[Ganolyn]

Great.

Now since you are the head of the team I would like an answer to a simple question?

Why are you having numerous melee focused nerfs coming into the game with U13 when you stated that you wanted to buff melee considerably with the enhancement rework to boost their effectiveness compared to casters?


Haven't you ever heard of raising the price of something 30% so you can have a 20% off sale on it? They're just doing it backwards for melees. ;)

[Therrias]

You only really notice it if you are:

a) a monk
b) a caster
c) a halfling

And it is especially a pain if you are a halfling caster or a halfling monk.

I say keep it in the game as it is one of the only drawbacks to playing a caster.

You should consider making the halfling carrying capacity equal to all the other races though.

Edit: Though if you're really intent on removing links to PnP from the game, why not just do away with AC and have everything hit all the time. The current system is broken; seriously, fix it or get rid of it.

[Missing_Minds]

Great.

Now since you are the head of the team I would like an answer to a simple question?

Why are you having numerous melee focused nerfs coming into the game with U13 when you stated that you wanted to buff melee considerably with the enhancement rework to boost their effectiveness compared to casters?

great... Threadjacking. And you want a simple answer to the question. How about "because". Seriously, you aren't wanting a simple answer. You are wanting a detailed response explaining the direction the game is currently heading which is its own thread.

At least the spell components made sense in why they got brought up because they do add on weight, esp in the large quantities that most carry just so they don't forget them and run out.

[Missing_Minds]

You only really notice it if you are:
a) a monk
b) a caster
c) a halfling

d) a hagglebot.

[Ganolyn]

d) a hagglebot.

Or a mule. I have mule with 18 STR that is over burdened because of all the quivers full of arrows I have loaded him up with. Even with Bull's Strength he can't get over the high weight (5000+ lbs I think). I manage by leaving most of them in the bank and swapping back and forth, but it sure makes off-loading more arrows a chore.

[Avidus]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?
Annoyance and Frustration.

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?
I would be just fine with it going away.

Inventory management is not fun. If it was a Wal-Mart MMO with classes like Inventory Checker and Warehouse Manager would be a billion dollar idea.

People play games like DDO to adventure in a fanatasy world. Not to stack collectables from 32 different systems being oh so careful so their stacks don't topple onto their stacks of crafting ingredients, spell components, 1/2 a dozen two handed weapons, a dozen one handed weapons, and other assorted quest items, plus potions, scrolls, clickies... the list goes on.

Encumberence is the wrong place to be looking for realism, while you are fighting off devil hordes in a time traveling raid. Or traveling to hell to fight the lord of a separate plane of exsistance. Especially when you look at your inventory and say 'oh ****, I am encumbered because that 7th suit of full plate I just picked up put me over 9,000 lbs!'

The limited inventory / bank / shared bank slots are enough to still make gathering up everything a pain.
(While I am briefly on the subject, can we make the TR cache / shared bank have the same UI that the standard bank has instead of the 'bag' view please?)

[MrWizard]

unneeded mechanic, do away with it.
Pretend that we all have horses or donkeys that help carry this stuff to the dungeons...just like we did when playing DnD.

if we are gonna get fancy about encumberance...then we should also be able to use ropes and help each other up surfaces by standing on shoulders.

and it would be cool if attacks and spells affected everyone...:)

[rfachini]

Take encumbrance away. Even in P&P, it's an optional rule.
In a video game, where we don't have housing, beasts of burden, or hirelings to carry things; so you have to keep your belonging either in your bank or inventory, it's really not needed. (Also the game mechanics require several different weapons to effectively fight the various types of monsters we encounter.)

Encumbrance only serves to slow down casters and clerics who are trying desperately to keep up with the zerging barbarians and monks. Time to lose it already.

[SickCat]

Hmmmm...the "6 STR challenge" wouldn't be much of a challenge anymore. There are a couple of spells that would be rendered useless, I think...not that it would bother me much, I just won't have to chug resto pots anymore when I get enfeebled...

I think it's an aspect of the game that adds flavor and complexity...getting rid of it wouldn't tick me off, but it wouldn't ADD anything to the game...that's for sure.

[Flavilandile]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

Player talk : I wouldn't mind at all.

GM Talk : I would definitely mind, it's the way to make sure the characters are not hauling a whole armory with them.

Now it's so much an intrinsic part of the game, STR damage either by poison, spells or weapons can cripple a low STR character that has lots of things in his bag that I'm biased towards the side that want to keep it.

Removing encumbrence would make several spells useless, as well as all the weakening weapons.
( yes mob has encumbreance too )

Now as I'm sure that question is not innocent, would it be possible to elaborate on the reason why it might be removed ?

Answering that question may change my position which is to keep them.

( For example : I never used the encumbrance rules from Rolemaster in PnP because they were a pain to use, as it involved a modifier for every moving and startic maneuvers, including spellcasting and combat... So if you tell me that it's a major source of lag, sure I'll agree to get rid of it. )

[Cyr]

great... Threadjacking.

Mad posted about madstone boots change in the thread. It's not threadjacking if you are following up on a theme brought up by the OP in the thread despite your dislike of asking hard questions to the developers.

[Failedlegend]

Get rid of it...its pointless and only succeeds in forcing characters that don't need Str to waste points in it.

[Tinco]

Simply get rid of it.


slow down casters and clerics who are trying desperately to keep up with the zerging barbarians and monks.

I want to live in your world. ;)

[LeLoric]

Wait isn't getting rid of encumbrance another way to just nerf melee?

I kid yes get rid of it.

[knightgf]

I say encumberance plays a important role in the game that shouldn't simply be 'thrown out'. While characters can definately face issues with it, mostly at low to medium levels, at high levels, the amount of strength that can be gained is so ridiculus it might as well not exist. That's not to say that no issues are faced with encumbrance at high levels, but...it can get really easy to manage.

If anything, I say try and adjust the encumbrance rating so that its reasonable at all levels(I.E.: Nerf how much players can carry). Maybe increase the penalties as well for having medium and heavy encumbrance, but not too much. How much you carry should play a important role in the game not just inventory-space wise, but also weight wise.

If you were to ask me what a rough idea of the weight mechanics would be, I would base it as:

300 lbs base + 50 per strength modifier.

Of course, mind you, its a bit rough and maybe way out of wack given that I don't quite know the weight values for everything, but I figured something like this should be enough to hopefully matter a bit.

[Primalhowl]

I think encumbrance from the miscellaneous junk that goes into bags is totally worthless. Collectables, gems, crafting ingredients, etc. I also think that holds true for spell components (which should also have a bag...hint hint).

But as far as encumbrance effects to movement, I like them. Sure, most of them are easily removable (like enfeeblement), but they add dimension to game play... so long as they are equally applied to both PC and monster (see Missing_Minds post for that critique...)

[dynahawk]

I like all the little things like this that add to the experience, I don't like being weighed down by "TONS" of ingredients and collectables.

[Monkey_Archer]

Encumbrance itself doesn't add any value to the game at all IMO. However, the mechanics of strength damaging effects having an influence on movement speed/ac/etc.. does.
I'd say get rid of the weight/encumbrance system, but modify the strength damage system to keep the penalties associated with a low strength character being hit by a ray of enfeeblement or other strength damaging effect.

Something like:
6+ strength = no encumbrance regardless of weight
3-5 strength = weakened, small movement penalty, max dex penalty, monks become uncentered, etc..
1-2 strength = burdened, same as above but with larger penalties
0 strength = helpless

[blkcat1028]

Get rid of it...its pointless and only succeeds in forcing characters that don't need Str to waste points in it.

This post actually sums it up nicely. If you remove encumbrance, the influx of str dumped builds will be amazing. You could release a new pack and call it "The Ascendancy of the Min/Maxers".

You're going to make this a caster only game.

[Havok.cry]

In every game my GMs got rid of encumberace in I bought a boat and carried it in my backpack. Seeing as how the airships dont take up inventory I can't think of how to break it if you removed encumbrance, so please do!

[Thalmor]

I say keep it in the game. it part of the copnsequence for having a low strenght. If we take out encumberance, then we might as well takeout HP being tied to Constution. At character creation you have choices to make with requards to where you put your stat points, if you gimp on strenght then you should have consequences.

If you character has a starting strenght of 8 there is no way he/she can carry as much as a character that has a starting strenght of 16.

They need to adjust the bags so that no matter whats in them they have a certain weight, 1 LB period. After all they are really a varation on a bag of holding, either that or give us a true bag of holding.

They alread have it that coins do not add to a characters weight, so then can make it so that the bags have a set weight no matter that is in them.

Plus that have already made it easier to find Tomes, and htey are planning on making it so that when you TR you maintain your eaten Tomes. So pretty soon it going to be a lot easier you caster types, haggle Bots and what not to improve your strenght.

If you take encumberance out, than make it so that my Ranger can cast all his spells with a 8 Wis. ( See that sounds silly just as silly as a character with an 8 Str have unlimited carrying capacity.)

[Zenthalas]

1.) Bag of Holding argument for ingredients is spot on, the only weight SHOULD be the weight of the bag itself, not the contents since items in the bag are in extra-dimensional space and not on the material plane.

2.) Scroll cases and Spell component bags when are we getting them if ever should be considered as bags/cases of holding as well.

3.) If your carrying around 5 greatswords, 2 great axes, 5000 arrows, a 40 lb shield, wearing a 70 lb suit of armor (and all the accrutriments; bracers, gloves, swordbelt, helm etc.) ohhh dont forget that Maul and Warhammers for the skeles, 300 cure serious pots, 100 of each silver flame pots, enough Enchanted Ghallanda Rations to feed a small impovrished nation, blindness removal potions, blah blah blah you get the picture. Well with all that stuff you might find it difficult to dance the macarena whilst fity-eleven hobgoblins are swinging at you. Hell it's difficult for me to carry 4 bags of groceries and unlock my front door w/o putting something down. Besides is it that hard to hit up a vendor/bank while your running to the next raid/quest? It takes less time to dump your junk items than it takes most melee's to beat the training dummy down.

4.) Any caster divine or arcane who dosen't put 2 points into str and have a +6 str item is foolish IMHO, you deserved to be encumbered, obviously your primary stat wasn't being used enough cause you didn't have the foresight to think about it.

[dkyle]

Eschew Materials Meta

Sounds great.


then free feat swap for all casters)

All casters? Why? Why not just the two that actually took that terrible feat?


Inscription Materials

Why not? These are less of a pain, though, since you don't need to keep stocked up with them, and they don't waste inventory space.


Inscription Skill

Unlike spell components, inscribing high level spells is not trivial, and thus serves something of an actual gameplay purpose.

While I do think it's still kind of silly, it's less egregious than the spell components.


Mess with Vendors
Mess with Classes

I'm not sure what your point is here. That it would be hard to remove the spell components from vendors, and remove the material component check from the spellcasting code?

[dodger72]

it was in rare instances in PnP that I used encumbrance. In other words, the melee all the sudden have a golf bag with all kinds of weapons that they pull out at the drop of a hat. No....I don't think so.

I ran my games to say, ok...you have limited space to carry your items...tell me where (on your character sheet) you are holding those items. I didn't care how much it weighed...but that you could actually carry it on your person or horse (or other type of mount) or backpack...weight was inconsequential considering some of the str these characters could attain.

The limited space is supplied and applied in this game through the backpack (start with 60, get up to 100 unless you buy more in the DDO store) and 60 in the personal bank (again...unless more is bought) and then...another 20 in the shared bank. Attainable for free through favor total without spending TP's? 180 slots not counting what is equipped. plenty of room.

Throw encumbrance in the mix and a lot of toons are crippled.

You wouldn't hurt my feelings if this went the way of the Dodo.

[Vengeance777]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?


I despise encumbrance wouldn't miss it at all. Most pen and paper DMs ignore the amount of weight a character can carry unless its something obviously too big to carry.. Heck Bags of holding and its brethren were invented so players wouldn't have to spend the boring time adding up weight and could play the game.

Lore wise the coin lords say they are bags of holding/portable hole when they give them to us so shouldn't each backpack's slot be a max of 60 pounds no matter what is put in it? Hmm though Lore wise we should all be dieing horribly when we teleport, ddoor, or visit the portable hole lol.

Anyway the main encumbrance factor comes from the crafting and ingredient bags. Just negating the weight of whatever is in them would be a huge help. Reducing the weight of dragonshards would go a long way as well. 1000 fragments weight 10 lbs, a large bag can hold 5000 fragments which is 50lbs, and a huge bag can hold 10,000 fragments which is 100 pounds. Before you know it in the game your carrying around a few hundred pounds of tiny crystals.

[Thalmor]

4.) Any caster divine or arcane who dosen't put 2 points into str and have a +6 str item is foolish IMHO, you deserved to be encumbered, obviously your primary stat wasn't being used enough cause you didn't have the foresight to think about it.

^^ This!

[Rhysem]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

It doesn't add anything because the rules where it comes from assume things like bags of holding, real portable holes, mules/horses, the floating disk of carry-all-the-junk-to-sell who's name I forget.

Lacking those things in DDO it turns into a minigame, when it isn't supposed to be.

Off with its head!

[Aaxeyu]

So I feel one of two things needs to happen.

1. Enforce it religiously and realistically. Peopel currently carrying pick up trucks worth of weapons and ingredients will have to pick and choose.

2. Go with the "suspension of disbelief" approach, and all of our characters will now remain "link" from Legend of Zelda - walking around with a ladder, raft, 16 bombs, several wands, 3 swords, a bow and a thousand arrows, 2 boomerangs, and millions of gold pieces.

My thoughs exactly. Option 2 makes for a much better MMO.

Who are you and what did you do to Chai? :p

[davidolson22]

Just reduce the wait of bags to about 50 pounds for a large bag, 75 for a huge. Carrying 10 sets of full plate armor should weigh down my 8 strength artificer.

[Ovrad]

I think general encumbrance adds flavor to the game. However, having weight on collectable/ingredient/gem bags do NOT. It only brings annoyance.

The system as of now, is the more you play the game, the more you are penalized. Why? Because all those items you gather in your bags 'can' have a use, eventually, so you keep them all. So on low str characters, you end up with two choices, either being weighted down all the time, or spend half an hour everyday transferring stuff into bags sitting in your bank. Neither are fun.

Just make the magic bags have fixed weight, like they do in pnp... or like it was before this update due to a 'bug'. Don't penalize us for playing the game a lot.


Other than that, it seems normal that your character gets slowed down if he tries to carry a dozen supply crates to a NPC (eg: stormcleave). Or if a halfling gets hits with ray of enfeeblement while hoarding his collection of full plate mails.

[AZgreentea]

I understand that it has a very PnP feel, but it dosent mean a whole lot in the game. The biggest limitation to your inventory is bag space, not weight. The only place it comes into play in a quest is when your 8 or 10 STR cleric gets hit with a ray of enfeeble.

[Darkrok]

I don't mind encumbrance but I also wouldn't mind it going away. I think it's an interesting part of the game and adds some extra thought to builds but it's minor enough that if the best answer is to remove it I wouldn't be heartbroken.

I very much mind the fact that DDO's gone the direction of 1) requiring many MANY widgets and whatsits, spigots and sprockets, this and thatis for everything from Cannith Crafting to challenges to shroud crafting to the initial game collectibles, 2) that you've encouraged us to buy bigger and bigger bags to accommodate all the widgets and sprockets, and 3) that you had the bags reducing weight recently and garnered many sales for real money based on that behavior. If you simply make the bags a small fixed weight (10 lbs? 20 lbs? not sure here) regardless of what's in them that would fix most of the issues people are having with encumbrance right now.

It would also increase Turbine's income because right now the vets to the game are going to be telling new players, "Turbine store bags are a ripoff unless you're on a max-str toon. You can put all you want in them but then you won't be able to move". If it were switched to where bags were the only way to carry all this junk then we'd be telling the new players, "Turbine store bags are a great investment if you've got the Turbine points...they'll reduce your inventory management headaches and make the game more fun". That's a win-win in my book.

[Battery]

about all i play are monks so wouldn't bother me a bit for it to go away

[Missing_Minds]

Mad posted about madstone boots change in the thread. It's not threadjacking if you are following up on a theme brought up by the OP in the thread despite your dislike of asking hard questions to the developers.

My dislike of asking hard questions?

I dislike questions being asked that aren't related to the thread at hand. Your question ideally should be handled in state of game addresses (we've seen just how frequent and useful those are.) let alone in their own thread and NOT just because a developer is paying attention to their OWN thread.

Also how many threads have popped up about the boots, and people making cracks about them? How many others are talking like you are? Yeah, quite the minority right now aren't you.

So yes, thread jacking. I'm done with this topic in this thread.

[DocBenway]

I wouldn't want it to go away, but necessities like spell components and likely carried items like collectibles or ingredients should not have weight.

I kind of enjoyed that my drow wizard had to make 2 trips to the cave for powder crates in Gwylan's (though that's changing) due to being a skinny weakling. It added to the feel that playing different race/class combos is almost like playing a whole new game. I was glad, when those hobgoblins had enfeebled him, that I'd gone wraith form since even incapacitated and unable to cast, I could still float slowly, as a wraith.

Basically I like it being in game, but dislike all the extra weight from necessities/collectibles/ingredients. It only makes sense that my fighter have some kind of effect due to the 24 khopeshes and 3 suits of heavy armor he carts everywhere, but he shouldn't have the same effect from 21 pieces of magic broccoli and 16 piles of sparkly dust.

[Thlargir]

Encumbrance is a game mechanic that adds variety and thereby more decisions to the game, which is a good thing.

Contents of bags should be weightless (aren't they in non-dimensional space?)

Best of both worlds...

Now, what would be really nice if our bags were in fact Hewards Handy Haversacks and always opened to what we wanted to pull out (that was partly achieved when ingredients could be pulled out of bags when crafting)

[twiliteslayer02]

I dont think it should be ignored, but imo, it definately needs to be made to make sense at least by DnD standards.

For example: bag of holding/gem bags/collectible bags/portable hole backpack expansions, All of these need to be made to reflect not the tru mechanical, but the spirit of the idea, as in no weight for anything put in them.

While the standard starting backpack, and or any other beginning equipment should have wieght, and more importantly encumberance, noone should be able to carry 20k and still fight effectively, nor does it make sense that a single character carries 15 different greatswords or greataxes and still moves freely.

I think a few additions to the game should go into effect, one of which: Mounts,, no actual effect/graphic, just a simple extra space for holding /carrying items that would simply be too large for a toon to actually carry effectively and still function. Give an activation time to switch an item from mount to use, and in reverse, and make it so that the mount will only be allowed in certain areas, so that a bit of planning ahead for the gear you are gonna want goes into effect.

Another: Residences/lockers/storage units(seperate from the bank and toon specific only, no sharing btwn toons/accts) Accessible from only one spot, and secured by traps/locks etc.. could even make them so that a clever rogue can attempt breakins, not to steal the actual items, but to be awarded plat as a representation of stealing , the owners lose access for a day or two for every sucessful break-in?

Anyhow, encumberance is necessary IMO, but magic has to work too, would benefit you to offer the lockers and ormounts thru the t-store/favor unlock. and give a new dimension to the play oof the game, not to mention would give rogues something to do as well!

[waterboytkd]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

Burn it! Burn it like it's damned!

[Spoonwelder]

My only character with encumbrance issue is my Str dumped dex/int focused Arti. He's also my crafter and I dump all my collectibles on him.

If the red and green bags didn't weigh anything then even he wouldn't have any issues unless I started carrying around 20 heavy repeaters.

So encumbrance isn't a real issue. Do away with it if it helps keep the hamsters in the servers from working too hard....but don't bother if it's going to take actual dev time.

I loved the change to weightless bags even if it screwed up my gem bags....that headache was even less of an issue to me than encumberance in total.

[bobbryan2]

As with all negative penalties in a video game, there would be many people who would want it simply gone. Why not have 100 pages of backpack space? Why not have monsters only give nonlethal damage? But I think penalties are important.

What really is a problem here is that we're required to have bags and bags of things that make it impossible to even hold full plate. So, I would make a couple of changes.

First: We're getting bags of holding for Coin Lord favor right? The first tier should reduce all encumbrance by about 25%. The second tier should up that to 40%. Alternatively, you could have two tabs that didn't add anything to encumbrance.. but I think an overall encumbrance bonus would be slightly easier without tons of moving items around in the inventory.

Secondly: Treat some/all bags as bags of holding that don't add to encumbrance.

Thirdly: Add a spell components bag. The weight of components is still a bad idea.

[BurnerD]

Not sure if I would miss it. Not a high priority item imo.

I hope one of your future topics will be: LET'S TALK: Inventory UI

I know you have a list of these threads planned. I hope you can add it to the list :)

[Carpone]

Encumbrance doesn't add any meaningful gameplay to DDO. It should just "go away". It's also at conflict with Turbine's DDO Store. No point in buying more inventory space to carry more stuff if I'm too encumbered to carry it.

[voodoogroves]

I'd prefer it was kept, but also that DDO-layer mechanic items have a weight of zero. Sigils. Crafting components. DT runes. Shroud mats.


Drop their weight to zero or make anything in a bag weight zero, keep encumbrance.

[HungarianRhapsody]

If getting rid of encumberance would cause a noticeable reduction in lag, then I'm 100% in favor of eliminating it. Aside from that, I think it should stay.

It make dumping Strength into an actual build decision instead of just being automatic for offensive casters.

It provides an alternative avenue of attack for enemy spellcasters to disable your character instead of attacking your HP (and I believe that's a good thing). This is also one of the few areas where melee types have an advantage over offensive casters.


I do think that a couple of changes should be made, though. When you crunch up 10,000 Khyber or Siberys Dragonshard fragments, you end up with something that weighs less than a pound. As such, individual Khyber or Siberys Dragonshard fragments should weigh less than 1/10,000th of a pound. If you don't have that small of a scale available in DDO, then just making Khyber and Siberys Dragonshard fragments weigh nothing makes the most sense.

Also, because Turbine continues to add more and more ingredients and collectables over time, I think it makes sense to have anything that can fit into a bag have 0 weight. I don't think that the bags themselves should do anything to the weight, but rather that simply anything that could potentially fit into a bag should just have 0 weight (even if it is sitting in your backpack and isn't in a bag at all). If you want people to use the different crafting options in the game, then adding significant roadblocks to those crafting options doesn't seem like a good idea. Making some ingredients and collectables weightless was a good start. Now it's time to do the same for all the rest.

Finally, giving Halflings an encumberance penalty in addition to their Strength penalty seems excessive.

I think that changing those three things would remove most of the annoyance from encumberance while still allowing it to play a reasonable role in the game.

[Cyr]

My dislike of asking hard questions?

I dislike questions being asked that aren't related to the thread at hand. Your question ideally should be handled in state of game addresses (we've seen just how frequent and useful those are.) let alone in their own thread and NOT just because a developer is paying attention to their OWN thread.

Also how many threads have popped up about the boots, and people making cracks about them? How many others are talking like you are? Yeah, quite the minority right now aren't you.

So yes, thread jacking. I'm done with this topic in this thread.

:rolleyes:

No one said that I was unique in noting the inconsistency of stating one goal and then doing the opposite thing.

If I waited for a state of the game address thread by Madfloyd I might wait forever.

He brings it up, it is fair game in thread no matter what you might think.

[Thalmor]

Encumbrance is a game mechanic that adds variety and thereby more decisions to the game, which is a good thing.

Contents of bags should be weightless (aren't they in non-dimensional space?)

Best of both worlds...

Now, what would be really nice if our bags were in fact Hewards Handy Haversacks and always opened to what we wanted to pull out (that was partly achieved when ingredients could be pulled out of bags when crafting)

I use to love my Hewards Handy Haversack... One of the best items ever created for PNP. All you had to do was thing about the item and it would always be the item you would pull out.

[Scraap]

Encumbrance itself doesn't add any value to the game at all IMO. However, the mechanics of strength damaging effects having an influence on movement speed/ac/etc.. does.
I'd say get rid of the weight/encumbrance system, but modify the strength damage system to keep the penalties associated with a low strength character being hit by a ray of enfeeblement or other strength damaging effect.

Something like:
6+ strength = no encumbrance regardless of weight
3-5 strength = weakened, small movement penalty, max dex penalty, monks become uncentered, etc..
1-2 strength = burdened, same as above but with larger penalties
0 strength = helpless

This I could see.

Let's face it, if you really wanted to play munchkin in PnP, you'd have separate bags of holding with wide enough lips to fit 50 great-swords into for one bag, a few hundred sets of armor in another, ect ect.

[dkyle]

It provides an alternative avenue of attack for enemy spellcasters to disable your character instead of attacking your HP (and I believe that's a good thing). This is also one of the few areas where melee types have an advantage over offensive casters.

Encumbrance can never disable you. All it gains them is a second where you down a Lesser Restore pot. An 8-base STR Wizard is at risk of being Enfeebled into helplessness simply due to his STR, not encumbrance.

And while I don't want to see the gap between melee and casters widened, it's just such a negligible effect in regards to balance, in actual practice, that adds more annoyance than it's worth.

[MnaSidhe]

Finally, giving Halflings an encumberance penalty in addition to their Strength penalty seems excessive.


Halflings have an encumberance penalty?
I think we should have an encumberance bonus, because we can hold on ourselves, and position ourselves so that we dont get in your way whilst you are running us around!

Encumberance hasn't bothered me yet. If it stays or goes... well... doesn't really bother me.
But other than encumberance I am sure that there are many more important things to be working on! :)

[Crankymonky]

My initial reaction would be to say yes, remove it, just as many others here have said.

However, this would effect game play in various situations.

Ray of Exhaustion. Currently, if the spell lowers your strength to a point where you become encumbered, you will walk slower.

Symbol of Weakness, as above. However, the abbot has a nifty trick where he likes to cast symbol of weakness, preventing people from casting ice wands or running to the ice platform!

However, I agree that outside of debuffs cast upon players, there should be no limits on encumbrance. Our characters already carry tons more than would be realistic, I don't think limiting our carrying capacity benefits the game. However, I would like to see the above spells (and others that decrease your strength) keep their usefulness for enemy casters.

[Fanatic_Guru]

Game design requires the right kind and amount of player annoyances.

You don’t want to annoy players too much but you don’t want them to be too convenient either.

Having no encumbrance is convenient but so would having a portable hole as a bank and being able to access it from anywhere, or selling from anywhere, or crafting from anywhere, or teleporting to any quest from anywhere, etc. All this could be explained why it is possible in a magical world and it would reduce player annoyances but it is not good game design for DDO.

I believe encumbrance serves a purpose in DDO and provides a proper annoyance but I believe all bags (gems, ingredients, collectables) should act as bags of holding with a set weight unaffected by the contents. Players have pretty much reached their limit on annoyances with ingredients and collectables, encumbrance should not add to the annoyance of these items. Giving the ingredients and collectables a weight of 0 all the time would be fine too if that is easier from a coding perspective as opposed to them having no weight when in a bag.

Nine backpack slots for spell components seems excessive but my casters don’t seem as cramped for backpack slots as my melees so maybe it is some kind of caster/melee backpack balancing mechanic. I am undecided on spell components from a game mechanic stand point but from a logic stand point spell components take up way too much backpack space.

[Silverleafeon]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

I would love to see encumbrance completely removed from the game.

(My halfling cleric just got encumbered this afternoon. She did not dump str, she had a str item on, and her ingrediant bags are not loaded down with tons of stuff. She simply did 2 raids and 5 quests without selling or banking.)

[Aliss7]

I'd be sad to see it go.

Like spell components, it's right on the borderline of that fun/annoying line, but it gives the game flavor you know? DnD flavor. It does seem that this would officially make strength a dump stat for non-strength builds too.

I noticed you recently tweaked some quest to reduce the weight of some items. Why did you do that? What was the motivation to go back and tweak that?

You then brought weight to bags and now you're seeing balancing issues having to be taken care of now.

I can't help but think that what you really want to do is just get rid of encumbrance so you don't have to deal with the coding/balancing issues behind the scenes and you want to just gauge player reactions here to make sure there isn't some huge revolt. I don't mean that in a negative way either. I'm happy here to at least give you my two cents.

[Vormaerin]

:rolleyes:

No one said that I was unique in noting the inconsistency of stating one goal and then doing the opposite thing.

If I waited for a state of the game address thread by Madfloyd I might wait forever.

He brings it up, it is fair game in thread no matter what you might think.

He didn't bring it up. He responded, wryly, to someone else bringing it up.

If you think a "Oh look, only 53 posts to bring up this off topic complaint" type comment is "bringing the subject up... well, lets just say I don't share your style of reading comprehension.

[uthanak69]

I +10 this. Get rid of it please :)

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

I'd almost say get rid of it.

Nothing is more aggravating than being a caster (or, god forbid, a healer) in an elite, at-level irestone and not being able to see those warmages until you're suddenly burdened and helpless. And that's with a couple of points in strength just for gear purposes. So it's handy for teaching new players how they can't just dump a stat because they're not focusing on whatever aspect of combat they think it relates too.

That said, once you get some gear and you're past the handful of quests where enfeeble ray is an issue, it's not as much of a immediate problem as a huge annoyance. I want to say taking out encumbrance and encouraging the use of strength as a dump stat for non-melees would have some implications down the road, but I can't really think of any at the moment.

[katz]

You only really notice it if you are:

a) a monk
b) a caster
c) a halfling


agreed. everyone either has so much strength burden is totally a non-issue (like my horc paladin/monk and my halfling (yes halfling) bard), OR they are teetering on the edge of disaster... pick up one suit of plate armor, or get hit by ray of enfeeblement and yer f-ed. (like my low str AA clonk. i pick up one suit of armor and boom, i drop out of form :( )

it's a huge annoyance. coins already weigh nothing, which is unrealistic. i wouldn't mind much at all if all burden went away.

[jkm]

The biggest issue with encumbrance is that it hammers new players the most (since they are the ones most likely to not understand its impacts). This is good in some ways as it is one of the few early metagaming "teachers" about how the game is totally focused on strength.

So, encumbrance could go away, however you have to redo the character builds and stress to new characters that strength is everything in this game. I honestly think you should do like KOTOR 1 and just give weapon finesse as a default feat.

Caveats: This helps halflings the most. However, the knockdown penalty from Gust of Wind is so harsh on them that this change is net neutral.

[Vormaerin]

Encumbrance at the moment is a joke. A pointless joke. I can carry multiple suits of armor, dozens of weapons, thousands of arrows, etc even on my sorcerer.

The carrying capacity of most characters is so far off the charts that its ridiculous. I can't recall encumbrance ever mattering except when hit by Ray of Enfeeblement. The limitation is always inventory space.

So I say: get rid of it and give Ray of Enfeeblement some other effect to penalize casters (the loss of to hit/dmg is enough penalty on melee). A special effect if it brings your strength below 8 or something.

[Missing_Minds]

I'm going to ask a very bad question...

What effect would the by the book encumbrance rulling do to PvP if it was removed?

As I do not PvP here, I don't really know.

[Ebondevil]

Encumbrance or Limited Inventory Space.

Personally I'd be happy to keep encumbrance if we had unlimited inventory space. Encumbrance fits D&D, limited inventory space doesn't.

But with Limited Inventory Space having Encumbrance as well is annoying.

How about when you get the 150 Coin Lord Favour (or the 400 Coin Lord Favour) you get a lot more inventory space?

I can dream can't I?

[Meat-Head]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?



It has some value. Flavor, helps punish ppl that dump str., one of the few limitations on monks, etc.. But ultimately, I wouldn't care if it went away.

Does it add to lag in any way shape or form? If so get rid of it NOW.


EDIT: I also would dig getting rid of inv slots in favor of encumb. So, I can fill up my inv with full plates or with scrolls and that's the same...?

[quijenoth]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

dunno why but this line made me think of this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7tS74x55pQ

[xxScoobyDooxx]

For all the purists saying keep it ........... 4,000,000 PP .................... think about it.

Just get rid of it.

[Syllph]

Please remove it. It does nothing except annoy me.

Coin Lord Favor - remove Finishing school. Add Bag of holding. 0 encumbrance.

[lugoman]

It only took 53 posts. :)

Post by Genasi re madstone boots (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4281197&postcount=272)

Weird, Genasi doesn't show up in the Dev Tracker for me.

[Calebro]

OK, I seem to be in the extreme minority on this one.
I think encumbrance should stay.
It adds a layer of complexity to the lower levels (and sometimes the higher levels) when dealing with enemy spellcasters. That 8 Str halfling Dex/Int assassin/mechanic/artificer/whatever is utterly useless when hit with certain spells and effects, as well he should be!

Removing encumbrance would effectively remove one of the many layers of complexity to this game, and some of us prefer this game because of that complexity.
Removing encumbrance would dumb the game down.
If any of you have ever posted that you don't want the game dumbed down any more, then I don't see how you could possibly want encumbrance removed.

Please do not remove encumbrance rules. A modification to the weight of some items (ie: collectables, etc) may be in order, but encumbrance should remain.

[patang01]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

Lets face it; strong characters can carry around a arsenal of weapons that would make most regiments envy them - strength is about one thing and one thing only. Hitting stuff - hard.

Encumbrance in games was thrown in for 'realism', but carrying 10 weapons on you is no more real than having a artificial amount defining carrying limits.

People who want to roleplay can do so - just imagine being able one bag only and 2 weapons and there's your reality.

I'm all for letting it go; it fills absolutely no function other than limiting some builds.

[Melcena]

Inventory slots are enough limitation already.
I think it has some sort of flavor for monks and low str builds. They should have some negative effect when hit by a str damaging spell. Or just make those str damaging spell dmg some CON instead. IDC.

Spell components add to the game too IMHO. There's a Feat for that if you think it bothers you too much. The only thing we're really really missing is spell components bag. Seriously. ASAP.

Yay eschew material. Most people dont like it, but I believe that it is here precisely to combat the effects of encumbrance.

Now, on a side note, I think that encumberance is very vital to this game, in all honesty. This mechanic dates back to the old days of pen and paper, and I would be sad to see it go. I think that mechanics need to stay the same. It might actually teach some people some very important lessons, such as why its a bad thing to carry a extremely large amount of gear. To help prove my point, a short narrative has been arranged.

Two halforcs, Bob the Wizard and Rob the Cleric, decided to go assualt a Hobgoblin Village. Bob currently possesses eschew material, allowing him to lighten his load, and as such, only goes into the fray with 45 pounds of deadweight. Rob the Cleric, meanwhile, decides to go into the fray with over 200 major mnemonic enhancers, 200 scrolls of heal, thousands of spell components, his full plate, large steel shield, and bastard sword. Knowing he is carrying quite a bit, Bob bestows him with the strength of a bull. However, Rob still is moving quite a bit slower under his immensely heavy burden.

Shortly after breaking into the village, several Hobgoblin shamans, behind their protective screen of warriors, use their magic to steal away Rob's strength. He collapses under the now titanic weight of his gear and cannot even move to throw some of it off. The hobgoblin warriors descend with glee on their now helpless victim and promptly hack him to pieces. Bob. knowing his cause is doomed, launches a fireball and immolates several of the warriors before the survivors turn and do the same to him.

The End.

To illustrate the point, encumbrance teaches responsibility. If you want to walk into battle with a "small house on your back", then you better be prepared to die because of it.

[Enoach]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

I would mind - If you take it away, those sneaky rogues and pajama monks will be all evasive, even when they are carrying out hordes of Loot...

Those characters that have low strength won't feel the effects of being weakened when they are carrying a moderate load.

I realize this is just a game, but for me part of the fun was in managing what I will take with me so that I don't exceed what I can carry.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Weird, Genasi doesn't show up in the Dev Tracker for me.

Lamannia has a different Dev Tracker than the regular Dev Tracker. Check the list of subforums and Lamannia Dev Tracker is one of the options.

[WruntJunior]

Most melees could comfortably cart around a bus...even casters could lift a car by the time they're well-geared. I don't see encumbrance going away being much of a hindrance to anyone, and it would actually free a few +6 str slots on casters. YAY!

[MadFloyd]

Great.

Now since you are the head of the team I would like an answer to a simple question?

Why are you having numerous melee focused nerfs coming into the game with U13 when you stated that you wanted to buff melee considerably with the enhancement rework to boost their effectiveness compared to casters?

Simple. We aren't.

[Devonian]

Simple. We aren't.

Would you like to expand on that any? If a large number of people say that your acts are to a pattern of behaviour running one way, and you say that your actual goals are running another it may be time to share with us more of yore reasoning on the proposed changes?

I'd Much rather you say "Here is what we are doing, here is why, here is what we want the change to achieve" than the current "Here is what we are doing."

[Cauthey]

Would you like to expand on that any? If a large number of people say that your acts are to a pattern of behaviour running one way, and you say that your actual goals are running another it may be time to share with us more of yore reasoning on the proposed changes?

I'd Much rather you say "Here is what we are doing, here is why, here is what we want the change to achieve" than the current "Here is what we are doing."

Dude, they did that. Did you not see Genasi's post?

Relax! They are listening! They are engaged! Don't let our collective nerd rage chase them off! :D :D :D

[omen33]

Like spell components it adds flavor to the game.

You're running around on a high dex, low str halfling being dodgy and quick, then bam you get hit by symbol of weakness. Suddenly your ac drops, you need to alter your tactics

Just one example where it makes the game a little more 'complex' (in a good way)

What isn't good about it is useless stuff weighing you down. Gems, collectibles, ingredients, components etc. shouldn't affect your character's encumbrance

This ^

But most forum users dont care if it doesnt increase DPS.

[Cleanincubus]

Would you like to expand on that any? If a large number of people say that your acts are to a pattern of behaviour running one way, and you say that your actual goals are running another it may be time to share with us more of yore reasoning on the proposed changes?

I'd Much rather you say "Here is what we are doing, here is why, here is what we want the change to achieve" than the current "Here is what we are doing."

+1 If you Devs aren't going to actively engage in these threads, they are mostly 1 sided conversations. It's turned into, "let's have the players talk about a specific topic". That's something the community can do on their own, and the community already does that. The suggestion forum is already filled with topics. I hate to say it, but maybe if the Devs took the time to actually read all of the threads in that subforum, there would be no need for threads like these in the first place. That, or actually responding to these threads with some detail. With so many people responding to these threads in detail, it would feel more like an actual discussion if the Devs responded in a similar manner.

[rdasca]

It needs to stay, plain and simple.

The only real change should be the bags, they should have set weights based on their size, that's it. Simple idea, simple fix to the real problem (too much stuff to put in bags in the first place) as for coding it well I will let you the devs decide if it is simple or not. :)

[dkyle]

Simple. We aren't.

Madstone boots aside:


Monks and unarmed characters will no longer proc dual wield or double strike attacks when using Trip, Sunder, Stunning Blow, or other special attacks, making them consistent with other classes. Special "monk-only" abilities are unaffected by this change.

Sure, it's bringing "consistency", but it's a wider application of a needless nerf that happened in a previous update. Tactics were one of the few reasons to bother with TWF after U5. And the off-hand proc nerf was on top of the new animations for tactics that severely hurt melee tactics overall.


Monsters with rogue levels and the Sneak Attack ability now have the ability to reduce fortification to personal attacks to some degree. For example, a CR 10 bugbear assassin with 4 Sneak Attack dice will now be able to critically-hit someone with heavy fortification approximately 10% of the time. That same bugbear will be unable to critically hit a character with 110% fortification.

Fortification bypass inherently hurts melee more than casters (or ranged). Especially since the most overpowered casters (WF Sorcs and PMs) have the fortification to spare. I guess this is technically a slight buff for WF melee, in comparison to other melee, but for melee as a whole, it's a disadvantage.

[DrawingGuy]

I'm of mixed opinion in this regard for encumberance. Flavor wise I like it. However game mechanic wise it punishes ONLY ranged-based characters, which are already gimp to begin with. Melee will have the strength to be fine, casters could give a **** about dex and a min of moving slow is just a minor annoyance (and can likely fix it)... the rangers lose their to-hit and thus become worthless.

So with it being a factor that is already marginalized and only hurts those that need the most help, I say zap it.

[Cyr]

Simple. We aren't.

Then you must have a different take on the following changes made in U13 then me.


Fort change from rogue mobs. Consider the following questions (just for your own thought process no need to answer me of course)...Do melee need you to be near a mob to attack or do casters? Who then is more likely to take more hits per dungeon? Now what PrE grants a huge fort increase and is it a melee or caster class? Now are warforged who gain a fort bonus fairly common as casters or are they better as melee?
Madstone boots changes. Following questions again...Did the item detailed buff casters before in any meaningful way that was usuable and would it now? Do casters use SF pots more then melee? Does taking away power from an item that melee primarly used before weaken melee (clearly things like no double stacking, typed bonus, shaken, stat penalties, will save penalty all are nerfs that effect melee when the item possessed none of this to begin with)?
Deadly Weapons change. Following questions again...Is the effect now weaker in U13 then in U12? Is the proposed version better then the U13 version weaker then the U12 version? Is something being worse then before mean it is worse then before?
I really am completely failing to understand why if melee needs a buff compared to casters why we are not seeing things which hit casters more then melee if it hits both system wise or why we are not seeing straight out melee buffs. The above I can not read in any other way then a competitve weakening of melee compared to casters.

Dude, you are going the wrong way on the highway. You are the one who said which direction you wanted to head. Did I misunderstand you? Did you really mean that you thought melee was too powerful?

[Xiadais]

My feeling is that encumbrance (and carrying weight in general) just unnecessarily adds to lag from making more numbers for the servers to crunch.

However, if encumbrance was removed, spells (and other abilities) like Ray of Enfeeblement should still do something other than making you hit lower.

[Xiadais]

Then you must have a different take on the following changes made in U13 then me.


Fort change from rogue mobs. Consider the following questions (just for your own thought process no need to answer me of course)...Do melee need you to be near a mob to attack or do casters? Who then is more likely to take more hits per dungeon? Now what PrE grants a huge fort increase and is it a melee or caster class? Now are warforged who gain a fort bonus fairly common as casters or are they better as melee?
Madstone boots changes. Following questions again...Did the item detailed buff casters before in any meaningful way that was usuable and would it now? Do casters use SF pots more then melee? Does taking away power from an item that melee primarly used before weaken melee (clearly things like no double stacking, typed bonus, shaken, stat penalties, will save penalty all are nerfs that effect melee when the item possessed none of this to begin with)?
Deadly Weapons change. Following questions again...Is the effect now weaker in U13 then in U12? Is the proposed version better then the U13 version weaker then the U12 version? Is something being worse then before mean it is worse then before?
I really am completely failing to understand why if melee needs a buff compared to casters why we are not seeing things which hit casters more then melee if it hits both system wise or why we are not seeing straight out melee buffs. The above I can not read in any other way then a competitve weakening of melee compared to casters.

Dude, you are going the wrong way on the highway. You are the one who said which direction you wanted to head. Did I misunderstand you? Did you really mean that you thought melee was too powerful?

His "simple, we aren't" must have been in reference to boosting melees with the enhancement reworking!!! /omgIFiguredItOutI'mAGenius

[Targonis]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

The problem with the removal of encumbrance would be that there IS the whole idea that overloaded characters that have a ton of stuff they take with them SHOULD burden them. Ray of Enfeeblement and such have uses outside of just reducing the damage output of your enemies, it also means they MAY be slowed down so they can't move as fast(which Turbine may not have implemented for the mobs in the game).

The idea of monks being centered, and some feats only working if the player is lightly encumbered also would just go away if encumbrance were removed from the game. If anything, what would be better would be something that even adds to the complexity of this system. If you have a bunch of weapons, suits of armor, and other stuff, shouldn't the BULK of all that stuff make moving a bit more difficult? Adding things like bags of holding, or upgrades to our inventory space to reduce the bulk(bag of holding for example) would do more than just reduce the weight, but would also address that issue.

So, finding BAGS would be about helping with our storage and the bulk aspect. So, we start the game with regular inventory space, 3 bags worth. Buying magic bags would add to our inventory space, but would leave us with the original 3 bags that don't reduce the weight. Players could then upgrade/replace those with magic bags.

For things like spell components, pouches that CAN go in bags might be available, and some of those might also have a weight reducing effect, things like scroll cases should also be added, and quivers might have a weight reducing property. Add the "bulk removal" aspect to some of these, and people have items that really have VALUE, beyond just being about inventory space.

What many people HATE about encumbrance is when they can't hold enough of the items they want to have with them, and you also run into problems with all of the collectables in the game. Crafting components, or items that various NPCs want you to collect may in theory be TINY, yet they take up as much room as armor, and if you don't think to drop off all those dragonshard fragments in the bank, it is easy to become overloaded. All of this can be put together to satisfy just about everyone, without needing to change one of the core concepts of fantasy roleplaying, the limit to what you can hold at once.

As a final note, try picking up 15 beach balls that are fully inflated. It would be a big challenge, not because of the weight, but because of the amount of space involved. Most games fail at this basic idea where all items take up the same amount of space, from a pebble to a boulder, when magical or even scientific methods could be used to address letting players hold items. If you are looking at the possibility to eliminate encumbrance, why not go all the way and address this issue. Give us bags that actually hold items, and make it so we have just so much space on the body of our characters that we need to make ALL the slots be magic bags that hold this or that.

[Hurryup]

The 5th backpack slot is a portable hole.

So does that make the rest of the backpack slots portable holes.

What if I put all my bags in my heavy armor in my 5th backpack slot. Would that effect my encumberance.

The backpack needs to be rethought when it comes to weight.

I would prefer encumbrance only effect the items you wear and leave the backpack a portable hole with no weight.

[dredre9987]

Keep it. I like inventory management :)

[Ganak]

My feedback on Encumbrance:


If it takes significant development resources/time (defined by developers themselves), then get rid of it.

Otherwise, it does add a little flavor to the game and leave it in.

[kzeast]

I am fine with the bags (or their ingredients/collectables/gems) having zero weight - being magical bags and all.

I am not happy with the removal of the encumbrance system. It is a step down the 'simplification path'.

[Ganolyn]

Would you like to expand on that any? If a large number of people say that your acts are to a pattern of behaviour running one way, and you say that your actual goals are running another it may be time to share with us more of yore reasoning on the proposed changes?


"Abandon the reasoning of yore and look to the future."

-Ancient wise man

[Lost_Leader]

Bag of Holding has a set weight, Portable Hole is weightless. Supposedly our backpack evolves into a Bag of Holding and then a Portable Hole, or that is how I have always interpreted our Coinlord Favor and the repairing of the Portable Hole.

I like the flavor. I enforce encumbrance rules in my pnp game, but I also award Bags and Holes from time to time, because the way I see it, they are so very convenient why wouldn't everyone who could afford one not carry them? There must be crafters out there who make their livings on Handy Haversacks, Bags of Holding, Portable Holes, Quivers, etc., because there has to be a huge demand.

And there is also the "imploding the multiverse" by putting a Hole in a Bag, or vice-versa, or whatevs. Fun. Turn it inside out, wrap it around yourself and walk through walls!

So yeah, my opinion, Do away with encumbrance, rationalize it as following the rules with mass carrying devices that are awarded with coinlord favor.

[Book_O_Dragons]

Items in bags need to be weightless. The rest of the inventory can stay the same but bags are the problem. Well besides the increasing number of ingredients; they seem to come every update.

[Jastron]

Feel free to remove it. The time and effort to determine and enter a weight for every item will save dev time, and the lack of having to constantly compute encumbrance should reduce the load on the servers. The small reduction in inventory management by the players could mean more play time, and thus more LFM's.

What would be lost? Some flavor for sure, and some builds may be irritated they put points into Str when it is no longer needed, but overall it would be a benefit I think to remove encumbrance.

[Primalhowl]

Fort change from rogue mobs. Consider the following questions (just for your own thought process no need to answer me of course)...Do melee need you to be near a mob to attack or do casters? Who then is more likely to take more hits per dungeon? Now what PrE grants a huge fort increase and is it a melee or caster class? Now are warforged who gain a fort bonus fairly common as casters or are they better as melee?
Madstone boots changes. Following questions again...Did the item detailed buff casters before in any meaningful way that was usuable and would it now? Do casters use SF pots more then melee? Does taking away power from an item that melee primarly used before weaken melee (clearly things like no double stacking, typed bonus, shaken, stat penalties, will save penalty all are nerfs that effect melee when the item possessed none of this to begin with)?
Deadly Weapons change. Following questions again...Is the effect now weaker in U13 then in U12? Is the proposed version better then the U13 version weaker then the U12 version? Is something being worse then before mean it is worse then before?


I disagree with your assertion because there have been Dev posts that invalidate two of your three complaints.

The deadly weapons issue has been under discussion since Eladrin indicated that it wasn't supposed to be released. It is well known that the spell has not been working as intended. So the Devs change it and *in advance* say that it will be adjusted back when they get it working.

The Madstone issue is actively under consideration. Gensai has already posted a possible change and asked for input. He also indicated that the intention was to modify the boots to allow clickies but still penalize casters...

I am also unclear how the fort changes affect melee more than casters. A human FTR with 100% Fort and a human WIZ with 100% fort both would experience the exact same reduction from an attack by a mob rogue. How does that affect a melee character more than a caster? Furthermore, there are melee-themed items that boost fort that are not suited for casters, meaning that a melee is more likely to be able to ignore the decrease in fort.

[Caliban]

OK, lets stop here.

Currently a "specific type" of character has an issue with Encumberance, because they are using STR as a dump stat. Making Encumberance go away is a bad idea, IMHO, because STR would become even more of a dump stat for these builds. It doesn't take much (a couple of points during a build and sloting a STR item) to make Encumberance a non-issue. The problem is these Min/Max uber builds lose some of thier uberness.

Improving the BANK UI and shared BANK space would also address this as well as making "INCREDIBLE FRELLING LARGE BAG" BTA as well.

Hard to make it more of a dump stat - 8 is as low as the game will let me go. :)

And between ship buffs, rage, and str enhancing items I very rarely have encumbrance issues - I just have to transfer/crunch all the khyber/syberis shards more often.

The only real downside is that Ray of Enfeeblement can affect him more, but almost never enough to matter.

I say get rid of it - right now it's more of an annoyance than an actual hinderance or drawback.

[Expalphalog]

I like it. It brings the game closer to P&P (good), adds flavor (good), and helps with balance (good).

However, since Dex melee builds are not really viable at the moment, that last point is only in theory and therefore does not really apply. Let me add Dex bonus to damage either through a Feat or PrE or make AC matter and then I'll have a reason to ignore Str for Dex and it will come into play.

BUT, there were two questions here. Above is my answer to what value it brings. My answer to 'would you mind if it went away' is: No not really. As I said, I like it, but it is not a prime 'selling point' for keeping me here and if it went away tomorrow I would not lose any sleep.

[sirgog]

I think Encumberance should go away.

A new player on a 28 point build of a class that does not benefit from Strength (say a Wizard) usually needs a mild investment in Strength just to be able to carry loot. This usually comes at the expense of Con.

I'd rather they have more flexibility to build their toons the way they want.


One thing to keep in mind: This change will make soloing ADQ2 easier, as one of the biggest threats there (on DoT classes) is being Enfeebled to the point that movement is constrained. I have no problem with this.

[Auran82]

All the people saying that it's a tie-in to PnP.

Have a look at your backpack of a character that carries alot of stuff. Now, try to imagine where a person would *actually* put all those things (only 2 out of 5 inventory tabs are magical bags)

If this was PnP, you would be more likely to have a pack mule or horse and cart travelling with the party to carry all the heavy stuff anyway.

I would be in favor of getting rid of it, the number of inventory slots is already the limiting factor. Put more stuff in game that rewards high, or even moderate str (levers for optional stuff, breakable doors that need X str on optional things)

[Niv-mizzet]

I get the feeling he's asking because they're having an issue getting the bags to not have weight equal to the sum of their contents, while still not allowing certain not-to-be-named exploits.

Rather than waste time trying to fix that issue, I'd be perfectly happy if you just took a short cut and said "ok weight is gone, all players are LINK."

[Solmage]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

An enormous value in balancing casters and other 8 strength builds (say ranged artificers), which otherwise would become extremely common with no downsides.

When I put an 8 in it I have to think long and hard how I will survive the symbols of weaknesses, ray of enfeeblements, etc. Removing it removes an important layer of complexity from builds and characters.

What you need to remove is the weight from ingredients and other such stuff in our bags, perhaps make all bags weightless (what a concept, I bet we could never have such bags.. oh wait..) and then adjust down how much encumbrance carrying you gain from strength through a diminishing return curve. (So that barbs can't carry small moons)

In other words, it needs to be looked at, sure, but by no means removed.

[sdrocky]

Magic bags are just that. Magic. Tbey should be weightless. The rest should count towards encumberance.

[SHOCK_and_AWE]

An enormous value in balancing casters and other 8 strength builds (say ranged artificers), which otherwise would become extremely common with no downsides.

When I put an 8 in it I have to think long and hard how I will survive the symbols of weaknesses, ray of enfeeblements, etc. Removing it removes an important layer of complexity from builds and characters.

What you need to remove is the weight from ingredients and other such stuff in our bags, perhaps make all bags weightless (what a concept, I bet we could never have such bags.. oh wait..) and then adjust down how much encumbrance carrying you gain from strength through a diminishing return curve. (So that barbs can't carry small moons)

In other words, it needs to be looked at, sure, but by no means removed.

This is the only supposed downside I can see with removing encumbrance completely. While strength-based characters could ignore it because they could literally carry tons of equipment, casters would have to consider the possible detriment to mobility that low strength could pose through encumbrance. Removing it would act as a buff to casters (little to fear from Ray of Enfeeblement now) but barbarians would hardly notice.

[Dreamshifter]

I get the feeling he's asking because they're having an issue getting the bags to not have weight equal to the sum of their contents, while still not allowing certain not-to-be-named exploits.

Rather than waste time trying to fix that issue, I'd be perfectly happy if you just took a short cut and said "ok weight is gone, all players are LINK."

Definitely this. I don't mind weight mattering overall, but when my Arti (who has base 10 or 12 Str) hits Heavy Encumbrance from just his crafting bags alone, there's an issue. The fact that this thread has come up right after an exploit fix, and bags getting their weight back, says that they are having issues getting both 0 weight bags, and dealing with the fix. Personally, I'd much rather it went away, then have them waste hours/days/weeks getting a new system for bags up and running.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

If encumbrance went away, I would feel that a burden had been lifted from my shoulders.

I get the PnP rationale. But, I see encumbrance as a nearly pointless obstacle to focusing on what's fun, for DDO. If some object, then it seems relevant to point out that there are plenty of simplifications made already. We don't "feed" our characters, we don't potty train them, we don't actually get them to go to sleep, and so on. We don't do those things because most people wouldn't have any fun doing them, which is the same reason why an end to fussing with encumbrance would be a welcome change.

[Hurryup]

The first thing I do when I throw down

Is throw my backpack on the ground.

[Hafeal]

Well, I do not find, and have never found, the encumbrance rule to bring any 'flavor' to D&D. It was a limiting nerf designed to steer players in pnp - if used at all. I always referred it to it as the 'minutiae police' focusing on rules rather than actually enjoying a story. Flavor is music, graphics and the story. "Encumbrance" is nostalgia of a bygone way the game was written and can be cut as part of an MMO.

As for 'realism' - a pretend world of magic used to escape 20+ century Earth is a different 'reality' than Earth, so let's stop trying to take our reality and impose it on DDO. I, for one, am happy to suspend my belief of our real world physics while I am playing a game. You are already suspending your belief in dozens of different ways in this game as to how players act and work, why encumbrance somehow is the one 'reality' we have to hang onto - I do not understand.

With regard to strength affecting spells, I do not find this persuasive. The spells should not be taking into account, in an MMO, everything in your backpack. In a pnp game, you would not be carrying all of the weapons, armor, collectables, widgets etc anyway, the way you do here. The spells will STILL affect you - based on your stat sheet. It just will not take all the intrinsic extras an MMO has that pnp doesn't. Do you really want a 1 page backpack and everyone being *required* to go to the bank and swap out optimal equipment for their next quest? No.

So, upon further review of the subsequent commentary to my initial post, I keep my position that encumbrance is of no use in this DDO mmo as currently structured and I would not be sorry to see it go in the least. :)

[Godsblight]

For the purposes of gameplay encumbrance has been a lightly talked about topic between me and guildies/friends, mostly on how it sucks to be a caster with the current system in place in that aspect. As for removing it, that would be nice if it was removed and the current bag system was taken out for more of an infinite storage system which would work with the 2nd view of the inventory and with the search option wouldn't be that bad to navigate.

[Nataichal]

Not only would I not mind if encumbrance went away, I was actually pretty irritated today when I logged in and found that my caster can no longer carry my shroud ingredients bag without becoming heavily encumbered. I'm not normally the type to gripe about stealth changes, but this one was BS.

[RobbinB]

1'm 100% in support of removing spell comps from the game...I'm only 99.9% in support of removing encumbrance.

I'd rather see it be altered such that you start with a much higher base value of what you can carry and strength has a more marginal effect. My 25+ str monk should not become "uncentred" just because I was hit by one ray of enfeeblement spell.

But if I'm choosing between system as is and removal...yep, remove it.

[TempestAlphaOmega]

I disagree with your assertion because there have been Dev posts that invalidate two of your three complaints.

The deadly weapons issue has been under discussion since Eladrin indicated that it wasn't supposed to be released. It is well known that the spell has not been working as intended. So the Devs change it and *in advance* say that it will be adjusted back when they get it working.

The Madstone issue is actively under consideration. Gensai has already posted a possible change and asked for input. He also indicated that the intention was to modify the boots to allow clickies but still penalize casters...

I am also unclear how the fort changes affect melee more than casters. A human FTR with 100% Fort and a human WIZ with 100% fort both would experience the exact same reduction from an attack by a mob rogue. How does that affect a melee character more than a caster? Furthermore, there are melee-themed items that boost fort that are not suited for casters, meaning that a melee is more likely to be able to ignore the decrease in fort.

I have to agree with you here.

Deadly weapons, we were told it wasn't supposed to let loose into the wilds of live land and that it was not WAI. They could have just shut it off all together but rather gave us a place holder. Is the place holder as good as the not WAI/not intended to be released version? No, but it is better than nothing until they get it WAI.

I was not happy about the original Madstone changes and am glad they are looking into changing those changes so the change is less of an impact to my toons that like to impact things up close.

As you said there are items that add exceptional fortification and the ones I can think of off the top of my head are all more appropriate to a melee rather than a caster toon to wear.

As to the real topic of the thread, just dump encumberance. It will lesson the impact of spells that reduce STR but overall it would probably be easier to just dump it entirely than to re-write a system that allows weight in some back packs and not others (KISS people), actual inventory slot limits (both toon and bank) are enough of a limit for me, now if you want to give me a huge bank or a small home to store the hoards of stuff that I would gather (if this was a PnP game) then so be it but since that isn't what we have here I would vote to just dump it.

[parvo]

What good does losing hit points do to the game? What good does failing a save do? What good do traps do?

So, a low strength character hit by enfeeblement (that has already been nerfed into negligible duration) has no impact. Oh well...keep blazing the trail to challenge-free play. Better games will come along.

[Angelus_dead]

I am also unclear how the fort changes affect melee more than casters. A human FTR with 100% Fort and a human WIZ with 100% fort both would experience the exact same reduction from an attack by a mob rogue. How does that affect a melee character more than a caster? Furthermore, there are melee-themed items that boost fort that are not suited for casters, meaning that a melee is more likely to be able to ignore the decrease in fort.
1. Casters have the option to stay further away from enemy weapon attacks and still be effective themselves, while melee cannot make that choice.
2. Casters have higher Fortification than melees. The highest Fortification on DDO players belongs to Wizards.

[Postumus]

I wouldn't notice.

If anything, the junk that gets put the collectables and crafting bags should be weightless since there is just soooo much we can or need to get.

Since it's barely adhered to anyway, and encumbrance really just gets in the way of the fun stuff, I wouldn't mind if it went away.

But if it did, maybe some items such as heavy armor, tower shields, great axes, etc should have minimum STR requirements to use them. I think there should be SOME downside to dumping str.

[Primalhowl]

2. Casters have higher Fortification than melees. The highest Fortification on DDO players belongs to Wizards.

So because one particular subset of one particular class of a much larger group can get the highest fortification, all casters have higher fortification than melees?

I may be wrong, but that seems like a piece of false logic.

[Combat_Wombat]

People shouldn't be encumbered from all the crafting ingredients they basically have to haul around most of the time. BUT encumbrance is a very important aspect of the game that keeps strength dumped characters in check in many ways and the game would be very damaged by the removal of the system.

All races should have an equal base carrying weight(poor halflings), loot should weight shouldn't change, crafting ingredients should be weightless, and strength draining spells should still mess up strength dumped gimps.

[Sgt_Hart]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

If it vanishes fine. I'd in truth, tenatively call it a bug, as half the equasion(Compared to PnP) is unimplemented (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/floatingDisk.htm)or just plain AWOL (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding), or AWOL & Unlikely (http://forums.ddo.com/www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/horse.htm)..

Well, I guess the question really is: Would it be worth implementing Bag of holding, Horses, or floating disc's (or all) to balance the books?

[zex95966]

I'll be the only one here that will defend it i'm sure.
It gives a reason for casters to invest in strength.
on the other hand, it's not like every stat is important as-is. Wisdom in particular has zero use to anything but divine casters.

I do think they numbers for weight based encumbrance could be raised though.
A 6 strength halfling is unplayable tbh. There is a difference between unplayable and "dam I wish I invested in strength a little."

I think the numbers could be safely doubled for encumbrence.
but then again, maybe I'm just used to carrying lots of things and need to break out of that habit perhaps.

[Claransa]

Seems to me that if we can run around with up to 5 million plat in our pockets you may as well finish what you started and just get rid of encumbrance altogether or make up your minds and fully enforce encumbrance, in which case no one is going to be able to move around due to the all the weight even 1 million platt is going to add up to.

All this talk about realism and consistency with PnP rules is rubbish, just get rid of encumbrance already.

[andy310]

So from reading this thread every DDO player (or to be fair, a vast majority) is a sissy who can't deal with being encumbered.

Encumbrance, at least IMO, is a much needed aspect of the game. It basically makes it so that people can't go around packing 6 million platinum coins.

I like the fact that encumbrance is actually being brought up, as it really does allow for discussing a few things that don't work to a realist's liking within DDO it self.

I'm really all for making the game more like the PnP 3.0/3.5 version, There's a few things that really bug me about the game you can find at the bottom, and just 3 NOT simple things/additions that I would personally love to see happen on the game:


A) Money can be stored in the bank, or the guild's chest (bank vault free for F2P as well)

B) Money and just about everything, weights you down (unless it's in a collapsed portable hole pocket, After-all, that is extra dimensional...)
So, to match that theory, only stuff placed in inventory panels 1-3 and Money and will actually affect weight. Collectables bag will add their conent's weight to the total carried only if contained in inventory slot 1-3 -- And while I'm at it, I'd ask that they'd be fixed so as to allow selling gems again in case they weren't already.

C) Rogue Characters (and everyone else) were granted a new skill, Sleight of Hand; And allowed to pick pockets just like it happens on the good old PnP.
Naturally, this would need to also take into account the fact that one can attack within the city, and therefore can't technically recover his looted coin purse.
To rectify I would suggest that upon a sleight of hand attempt, the player whom the skill was used on should be allowed all it's attacks,spells,etc. which will only affect the pick pocket.
The pickpocket would drop the loot upon a single successful hit, and the coin purse would drop down as a collectable bag already does from monsters.

Doing all this, or something like this, would probably reduce the utter ridiculous amount of plat, or gold that people carry around; Making it so that MAYBE the auction house prices aren't so insane...
I'd like to see some dude carry 200k platinum coins in real life... You'd need a friggin wheelbarrow just to be able to walk about!


Here's the other things that really annoy me personally (which are all OT btw, just need to vent :P ) :
1) Magic Missie's casting/targeting tactics.
In PnP (because it's round based) You can definitely target different targets on your attack. At high levels, your magic missile dealing around 25dmg can actually be deadly to most low level enemies, and when an enemy dies at the first 2 or 3 hits, you waste the remaining missiles, instead of having them automatically redirect onto an enemy.

2) The insane AH costs. The maximums should be locked in on a +200% value of the item.

3) The near total absence of Large collectable (or other types of) bags in game loot.

4) The fact that Tomes don't stack... Really, I think they should add 3 different titles to each of the books/stats After-all, you can learn a lot IRL from reading one single book, and if you read 3 different ones about the same topic you do learn even more...

5) The absence of an "ingredients" bag for your spell components.
as a Sorc/Wiz in PnP My characters always carry a separate bag that is usually very easily accessible (sort of like a quiver if you will) where all the components are stored.
I find the fact that level 1-8 of material components takes up almost a full page of inventory space, They should weight be down, but they should not keep my inventory cluttered, I'd rather see these inv. slots empty!


Anyways, just my 2 cents... I'd hate it but I'll play the game even if encumbrance is gone (or I might ask for a refund on my membership :P) ...

[BDog77]

I never, ever even notice encumbrance...


Ever...

[Hafeal]

Encumbrance, at least IMO, is a much needed aspect of the game. It basically makes it so that people can't go around packing 6 million platinum coins.



Are you aware that coins currently have no weight and do not affect your encumbrance? :confused:

[ThomasMink]

I've dealt with encumbrance in Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, and more.. ..I also deal with it in DDO.

I do agree that the multitude of ingredients, components, and collectibles probably shouldn't have weight.. but I'd likely miss encumbrance if were to just disappear. I'd adapt to it, of course, but eh.. I'm so used to it being there anyway that it almost feels like a nonconcern.

[Hafeal]

It gives a reason for casters to invest in strength.

I know this hard for min/maxers to acknowledge and harder to accept, but many, many players create balanced characters without min/maxing. Not everyone plays the game to reach end game and dominate Epic settings.

IF the ONLY reason to keep encumbrance is some rational that casters are forced to put build points into strength, only new players and 1st lifers are being affected. I fail to see what this adds to the MMO in any respect whatsoever.

[Hafeal]

And I will add, IF you think the encumbrance of a back-pack, designed for MMO purposes, is too heavy, than pretend in your head that when you reach a fight, your character throws it on the ground. *Wala*

Then, if you are hit be a strength affecting spell, and would be encumbered after your fight, pretend you camp out until it wears off.

:)

[goblean]

Only time it was used in PnP, was when someone was manipulating so many other rules in our campaigns. It was like arresting a mobster for tax evasion.

With real portable holes, bags of holding, and handy haversacks (my favorite) missing from the game there isn't the typical way to solve the issue of encumbrance. The other item we have in game is gems. Gems were typically used to carry large sums of money, when encumbrance was used. In DDO there are no high value gems, and plat weighs nothing.

So, in summary encumbrance is not needed along with copper, silver and gems.

[Phemt81]

I get the feeling he's asking because they're having an issue getting the bags to not have weight equal to the sum of their contents, while still not allowing certain not-to-be-named exploits.

I agree.
And that's why getting completely rid of encumbrance would be lame in my opinion.

Just let bags weight zero, only the bags.

[Hafeal]

So, in summary encumbrance is not needed along with copper, silver and gems.

I miss electrum ... :D

[Antheal]

Either remove the encumberance, or give every character model a visual backpack that enlarges in size according to the weight of items in their inventory.

Just where is all the gear being carried, being represented?

[muffinlad]

I would like to see encumbrance removed. In a game where magic is as powerful as it is, and as varied, folks would have dealt with this years ago, either by significantly reducing the weight of armor (to as little as possible) via magic, or giving folks additional carrying ability via bags, sacks, etc.

I would imagine that the removing of the need to calculate the weight of objects on every active toon, and it's impact on movement/skills, etc. would be one less function the game would have to do, and good for everyone involved.

Regards,

muffinstuffin

[GoRinNoSho]

As someone who has played a few chars of the rogue persuasion I've always felt a bit jipped by tearing the strength of a monster down to 0 and they still move at full speed and can attack.

I guess since they aren't affected by encumberance neither should we. ;)

[WruntJunior]

So from reading this thread every DDO player (or to be fair, a vast majority) is a sissy who can't deal with being encumbered.

Encumbrance, at least IMO, is a much needed aspect of the game. It basically makes it so that people can't go around packing 6 million platinum coins.

Coins way nothing, and it's impossible to carry 6 million plat because the plat cap on one character is ~4.3 million plat. In PnP games that I played, weight and encumbrance was either ignored, or (in certain survival-based campaigns I played) circumvented by dropping your backpack/sack/whatever at the beginning of a fight, ensuring you had a light load. Encumbrance doesn't really add anything to an mmo where it is easy to get 20 str with a starting 8, and it disproportionately affects classes...for example, a halfling monk is screwed at low levels, especially if dex based (which is neither a min-max build nor a caster or such) and the people who would normally be worst affected by it start with 12 str anyways to melee at low levels (casters, divine or arcane) and get a +6 str item before cap to have the carrying capacity.


I like the fact that encumbrance is actually being brought up, as it really does allow for discussing a few things that don't work to a realist's liking within DDO it self.

I'm really all for making the game more like the PnP 3.0/3.5 version, There's a few things that really bug me about the game you can find at the bottom, and just 3 NOT simple things/additions that I would personally love to see happen on the game:


A) Money can be stored in the bank, or the guild's chest (bank vault free for F2P as well)

Not a bad change, I'll agree.


B) Money and just about everything, weights you down (unless it's in a collapsed portable hole pocket, After-all, that is extra dimensional...)
So, to match that theory, only stuff placed in inventory panels 1-3 and Money and will actually affect weight. Collectables bag will add their conent's weight to the total carried only if contained in inventory slot 1-3 -- And while I'm at it, I'd ask that they'd be fixed so as to allow selling gems again in case they weren't already.

Too much risk for bugs, too easy to circumvent as easy as level 5 just by having all of your stuff in the last two tabs, and the weight of a million plat would make it where money is dangerous to carry at all...or impossible to carry, even. Also, the gems in bags can be sold normally since 12.3 was released on Wednesday.


C) Rogue Characters (and everyone else) were granted a new skill, Sleight of Hand; And allowed to pick pockets just like it happens on the good old PnP.
Naturally, this would need to also take into account the fact that one can attack within the city, and therefore can't technically recover his looted coin purse.
To rectify I would suggest that upon a sleight of hand attempt, the player whom the skill was used on should be allowed all it's attacks,spells,etc. which will only affect the pick pocket.
The pickpocket would drop the loot upon a single successful hit, and the coin purse would drop down as a collectable bag already does from monsters.

No, this is a horrible idea.


Doing all this, or something like this, would probably reduce the utter ridiculous amount of plat, or gold that people carry around; Making it so that MAYBE the auction house prices aren't so insane...
I'd like to see some dude carry 200k platinum coins in real life... You'd need a friggin wheelbarrow just to be able to walk about!

Nothing you suggested would make auction house prices lower. If it became impossible to carry a lot of coin any distance, people would make banks that only hold plat and use them for their AH purchases and the like. A really nice place in Necro, for example, puts them within easy reach of the AH and the bank without moving.



Here's the other things that really annoy me personally (which are all OT btw, just need to vent :P ) :
1) Magic Missie's casting/targeting tactics.
In PnP (because it's round based) You can definitely target different targets on your attack. At high levels, your magic missile dealing around 25dmg can actually be deadly to most low level enemies, and when an enemy dies at the first 2 or 3 hits, you waste the remaining missiles, instead of having them automatically redirect onto an enemy.

2) The insane AH costs. The maximums should be locked in on a +200% value of the item.

No. Epic scrolls have a base price of 10 plat....that would kill one of the major plat sinks on the auction house, where 30% of plat disappears into nothingness. That's not even touching many rare drops, ingredients, or other valuable things. Change such as this would kill the AH quicker than anything.


3) The near total absence of Large collectable (or other types of) bags in game loot.

4) The fact that Tomes don't stack... Really, I think they should add 3 different titles to each of the books/stats After-all, you can learn a lot IRL from reading one single book, and if you read 3 different ones about the same topic you do learn even more...

It's good that tomes don't stack, and it's in keeping with PnP...things like that would create a huge power divide. A wizard that's been around would easily have an int >10 points higher than a newly capped, but well geared, wizard...meaning either the older wizard is monstrously overpowered, or the new wizard is laughably useless. This directly ruins power balance.

5) The absence of an "ingredients" bag for your spell components.
as a Sorc/Wiz in PnP My characters always carry a separate bag that is usually very easily accessible (sort of like a quiver if you will) where all the components are stored.
I find the fact that level 1-8 of material components takes up almost a full page of inventory space, They should weight be down, but they should not keep my inventory cluttered, I'd rather see these inv. slots empty![/QUOTE]

Agreed.

Overall, encumbrance does not add anything worthwhile to this game as an mmo...and trying to fix weight issues with some things has led to some quite humorously bad exploits. Best to just get rid of encumbrance.

[luvirini]

Would I care if encumberance went away:no

Would I be overjoyfull if the "junk" we get(collectables,ingredients, gems, ammo etc...) would be weightless: Oh YES!


So I would be:
110% in agreement with removing weight from all the ingredients and collectables and sigils and such.
90% in agreement with removing it from things like arrows/bolts/thrown weapons
70% in agreement with remving it from all quest items
50% in agreement with (=Do not care either way) about removing it completely.

[zex95966]

I know this hard for min/maxers to acknowledge and harder to accept, but many, many players create balanced characters without min/maxing. Not everyone plays the game to reach end game and dominate Epic settings.

IF the ONLY reason to keep encumbrance is some rational that casters are forced to put build points into strength, only new players and 1st lifers are being affected. I fail to see what this adds to the MMO in any respect whatsoever.


haha me, a min maxer? my ddo me please - I have very little in the way of named items, my highest is a lvl 15, and I've been playing since my join date. I've also been complaining about the difficulty of the game in another thread here.

no, I defend it because it adds some realism to the game and roleplayers can feel justified if they want to play a musclebound spell caster or whatever.

Oh and I don't roleplay either - I'm saying every stat should be important - not gamebreaking as I mentioned but encumbrance was never game-breaking to begin with. That's why I brought up the wisdom issue as well.

[t0r012]

maybe in the days when 30 str was a metric S ton, encumbrance might have mattered.
before there was the over abundance of epic ites with slots that can slot a str token it might have mattered.

only times I have ever noticed encumbrance was on my dex/wis halfling finesse monk when she was slow in getting to the vendor after a couple loot heavy quests and getting weakened and losing stance. Then it sucked and mattered a lot.

ohh or collecting the darn supplies in stormcleave or containers in gwylands. the dex wis monk did get self encumbered there.
----------

With that said I'd hate to loose the flavor and in fact wouldn't mind seeing encumbrance made a bit more relevant.

yet if there was some big plan that brought this all to mind and encumbrance was a casualty , go ahead and axe it.

[Missing_Minds]

2. Casters have higher Fortification than melees. The highest Fortification on DDO players belongs to Wizards.

huh??? Undead PMs? That is a rather small subset compared to the over all number of players. (I don't knock the power though.)

[Aaxeyu]

no, I defend it because it adds some realism to the game .

How exactly does it add realism to the game? It makes the statement that anyone with 30 strength can carry ~4000kg of equipment. That's extremely unrealistic if you ask me.
Characters can also carry around 100 full plates. How could you ever realistically carry that much on your person?

No, the only way to make it "realistic" is to assume that everything is carried in some magical way and does not have any weight.

[HungarianRhapsody]

How exactly does it add realism to the game? It makes the statement that anyone with 30 strength can carry ~4000kg of equipment. That's extremely unrealistic if you ask me.
Characters can also carry around 100 full plates. How could you ever realistically carry that much on your person?

No, the only way to make it "realistic" is to assume that everything is carried in some magical way and does not have any weight.

No one on Earth has 30 Strength. Olympic weightlifters have 18 Strength. The weight limits for different Strength brackets aren't what's unrealistic. Having that Strength in the first place is unrealistic.

[Aaxeyu]

No one on Earth has 30 Strength. Olympic weightlifters have 18 Strength. The weight limits for different Strength brackets aren't what's unrealistic. Having that Strength in the first place is unrealistic.

Is that so?
Well, my point remains.

[Dreamshifter]

I agree.
And that's why getting completely rid of encumbrance would be lame in my opinion.

Just let bags weight zero, only the bags.

That would be fine with me, but the timing of this thread implies doing that is a problem that won't be easy for the Devs to fix. So the question becomes, is that the best choice if it takes 100 hours of Dev time away from other projects? Or even 10 hours? What if it takes more?

For me, if it isn't an easy fix, I'd be fine with waving good-bye to encumbrance entirely, if that is so easy. In the end, there are a few builds that will benefit, a few that put points in Str that want those points back, and a lot of melee builds that won't even notice.

If they can fix the bags to (near) 0 weight, quickly and easily, without bringing back other problems, fine. If not...

[zex95966]

How exactly does it add realism to the game?

Because your a freaking adventurer! even if your a caster, your traveling through rough terrain everyday, jumping around avoiding all kinds of ****, and are able to at least tank one hit from a freaking GIANT.

you need to have some strength for that. I never mentioned numbers (18 strength on a caster? uh... ok...)

[dkyle]

huh??? Undead PMs? That is a rather small subset compared to the over all number of players. (I don't knock the power though.)

The truly overpowered casters are the self-healing casters, and PMs comprise a rather large proportion of them. WF are the other portion. So, basically, the currently very most overpowered casters, are exactly the ones least affected by the fortification change.

When a "nerf" affects a set of builds less than other builds, then that is effectively a net buff to that set of builds.


No one on Earth has 30 Strength. Olympic weightlifters have 18 Strength. The weight limits for different Strength brackets aren't what's unrealistic. Having that Strength in the first place is unrealistic.

The Olympic world record for an over-the-head lift is 580 lbs, which in 3.5, corresponds to a Strength of about 23. Oddly, in DDO, that Olympic world record would have a Strength of 11, at most. Probably less, since heavy encumbrance allows for far more activity than would be possible for said Olympian while lifting that weight.

But the real issue with "realism" is that carrying a large amount of weight is only half the battle. Even if a set of full plate weighed 1 lbs each, carrying 50 of them would be downright impossible, while performing other actions, even though 50 lbs, in say a backpack, isn't that bad for a physically fit person.

[zebidos]

In my humble opinion its pointless as the amount of stuff that we carry around is highly unrealistic even if we have 50 strength.

Imagine your average halfling, dwarf, half orc or warforged carrying around:

200 cure serious potions
200 rage potions
100 cure curse potions
10 weapons
3 different pieces of armor
collectable bags
random loot, helmets, weapons, braces, boots.

And thats just part of it; add a caster to the mix and you have 1000 peices of bull dung, 1000 hearts of hens, 1000 scrolls...etc...etc

I dont care how much strength you have, if you carry around all the above you would be encumbered regardless. and would barely be able to stand up let alone fight.

Annoying low level players who just looted a few heavy armors doesnt really add to the game imo.

[TiranBlade]

If it reduces the amount of lag and phisycal checks require that cause lag and other coding issues, I'm all for removing encumberance from the game. Especially with your fourth bag slot being a bag of holding and your fifth being a collapsed portable hole, which should make items in them weightless anyways.

[oradafu]

If this idea is being pitched because of the "trouble with the bags", this is the wrong way to go about it then. I believe that if the items that go into the bags and the bags themselves were to weigh nothing, then the problem is solved. This would also include bag like items like the Sigil and Shield stuff from Necro4. I'd go a step further and remove the weight from other "collectible" items that don't fit into the bags, such as Reaver Refugee Essences and Runes.

But as far as I can see, just removing the Encumbrance would be another boost to casters, Wis/Dex monks and Finesse melees (especially halflings). Currently in the game, I believe in that group its Finesse melees and halflings that need a boost, not the casters and monks. But that's just my opinion.

[Missing_Minds]

The truly overpowered casters are the self-healing casters, and PMs comprise a rather large proportion of them. WF are the other portion. So, basically, the currently very most overpowered casters, are exactly the ones least affected by the fortification change.

When a "nerf" affects a set of builds less than other builds, then that is effectively a net buff to that set of builds.

AD specifically said "wizard" not "caster." Of which PM would make up a small set.

Any self healing character obviously isn't going to be effected by the crit change much, nor encumbrance that much.
Heck, picking on a single class is pointless. This will barely effect any strong character, you don't have to be over powered for it to not effect it much.

The nerf hits all builds, just the self sufficient are not effected as much this time though which is to be expected, honestly.

[Kydrou]

Encumberance is not a punishment. It is a LESSON.

LESSONS (A.k.a. "Problem" by most players):

LESSON 1: You get Strenght loss from a temporary source, and encumberance makes you slow/unable to use evasion? Then you should BE PREPARED. Or on the very least, it teaches you that low strenght can be bad for your health.

Solution: Buy a lesser restoration potion. It teaches new players the value of preparation, and old players learn about the weakness of their "perfect builds".


LESSON 2: You get unable to evade/run as fast because you have too much loot! (Namely armors, weaponry, stuff needed for quests)

Solution: Get a Strenght bonus from an item, or even potions can help. Or plainly learn what items are worth keeping. For example, lots of named items are ONLY THAT. Named items. There are versions of randomly found items with the EXACT values of Named Versions. Does your item have nice properties, but you wish they were on some other piece of equipment? Most likely you're just keeping Vendor Trash. And it teaches you the value of certain items. Is this worth keeping, or it's gonna be my rogue/monk's demise? The answer may surprise newer players.


On the other hand, Collectibles are meant to be, redeemed or collected. But to get that beautiful collectible you want for the last ritual, or that potion of exp, you have to go through lots and lots of random collectibles that go straight to your weight pool.
And one thing is certain: No one likes to waste an hour of gaming just redeeming stuff for useless loot.
Solution: Make Redeemables better, or plain weightless. If you're gonna be stuck with hundreds of beetles, while looking for fragrant drowshroud, they might as well be useful, weightless, or at least worth keeping.

[ddobard1]

Encumbrance matters in d&d!

Dont make the game plainer and flavourless!!

[bryntian5]

Get rid of it.

[Yan_PL]

why do you want to nerf melee again
by taking almost the only thing they were good at out of the game?

i wouldn't mind if it disappeared.






this would make "inventory management minigame" easier, faster...

[Madryoch]

Then you must have a different take on the following changes made in U13 then me.


Fort change from rogue mobs. Consider the following questions (just for your own thought process no need to answer me of course)...Do melee need you to be near a mob to attack or do casters? Who then is more likely to take more hits per dungeon? Now what PrE grants a huge fort increase and is it a melee or caster class? Now are warforged who gain a fort bonus fairly common as casters or are they better as melee?
Madstone boots changes. Following questions again...Did the item detailed buff casters before in any meaningful way that was usuable and would it now? Do casters use SF pots more then melee? Does taking away power from an item that melee primarly used before weaken melee (clearly things like no double stacking, typed bonus, shaken, stat penalties, will save penalty all are nerfs that effect melee when the item possessed none of this to begin with)?
Deadly Weapons change. Following questions again...Is the effect now weaker in U13 then in U12? Is the proposed version better then the U13 version weaker then the U12 version? Is something being worse then before mean it is worse then before?
I really am completely failing to understand why if melee needs a buff compared to casters why we are not seeing things which hit casters more then melee if it hits both system wise or why we are not seeing straight out melee buffs. The above I can not read in any other way then a competitve weakening of melee compared to casters.

Dude, you are going the wrong way on the highway. You are the one who said which direction you wanted to head. Did I misunderstand you? Did you really mean that you thought melee was too powerful?



I have a question here. Does melee only mean damage to u ?

Okay to your first question i d like to answer to you with the following. For starters ... how many mobs do u know who happen to be rogues as raid bosses? Who gets targeted with mass heals and cures ? Is that the casters? On top of that u mention the pale master PRE ? lol this is funny ... yes palemasters have that ''advantage'' yet they also are unable to receive healing of any form unless the healer is especially prepped for it and they can't use pots but they have their aura ... So u are mistaken saying that it's really broken that they take double damage from light effects (if u are referring to lvling since that's where the most ''rogue'' mobs i know of are.) And then u mentioned WF? well they have some good stuff but the most powerful caster will never be a WF. WF self heal is a means to achieve something with less effort (scroll heal).

To ur second one .Madstone boots... Well i expect that not many casters would sacrifice casting stats in order to get a ''madstone'' effect so it will most likely still go to the melee as item. Farm the item as everyone else did who has it. I already have it on 2 of my toons and i ve put it up for roll 2 more times as well. If for example u get a -4 stacking twice effect uhm ... i wouldn't sacrifice -8 charisma or int on a toon based Partially on DC.If u aim for raids u ll be using epic corrosion boots as caster probably and the only reason someone would use the item u mentioned would be to shield block torc/conopp in some trivial quest while using blood rage as well...

3rd... What the hell ... Melee need boost? If they need a damage boost then i ll just accept it cause the devs said so. But that doesn't mean i agree. Check your typical party composition. 1-2 arcanes 1-3 healers = 5 members the rest are most of the times melee. You are gonna argue ofc that melee classes are more than ranged... But that also means that by improving melee u improve a lot of classes too. And stop with the stupid mentality that if someone is underpowered insteadof improving that u are suggesting they nerf the ones that are ''balanced''? Spare me with the ''hits'' the melee are taking all the time when blue bars chug pots to keep u up or to do their job in long raids while melee are the people who don't need em and sell em for 20k pp each ? If u want similar damage as melee i want them to implement something that makes u HAVE to spend LOTS of money either store or AH with the frequency casters chug pots in order to get the boosts u mentioned ... I find it hillarious when some of the melee could faceroll and still deal their dps and yet they want to be boosted. If they want to improve melee they should add more things for them to spam , lower their damage from autoattack and make em use special skills with cooldowns that require rotation. That will make melee type toons more interesting to play as well... but wait ... that will no longer be d&d.

Regarding the encumberance thing from bags ... hmm while i tend to agree with u u gotta also admit that monks should have a penalty for carrying heavy weight ... and if half the items in the game can be stuffed into bags then monks won't have any issue ever. Now I also find it stupid that i paid real money to get a Gargantuan bag only to be unable to use it in quests cause it makes me heavily encumbered. I mean what's the point of making a bag that can hold a kingdom's mundane items if u can't carry it around.

[voxson5]

Get rid of it.

No

[zex95966]

no

+1

[monsoon22]

Removing it although granted it can be annoying, is a mistake imho. As said by others it just neuters the flavour even more. It is not a major effect, is easily countered, but yet adds a small dimension to the game.

I feel the same about some of the past changes to be honest like the wearing off of neg levels and mummies rot, curse, etc. Since the change they are largely ignored except in very specific circumstances like demon`s poison that can wipe out your con. Other than those, spells like poison etc are useless and much of the flavour is gone. These were never big items per se as they could be relatively easily countered, but still you had to counter it.

The removal of all this stuff, and maybe now encumberance, is just more steps away from actual challenges (like someone casting enfeeblement and having it be bad as the broken AC system makes that effect of it meaningless) and more towards challenge equating to more hitpoints and fort. Better to have the first rather than the second imho.

[Dagolar]

Like spell components it adds flavor to the game.

You're running around on a high dex, low str halfling being dodgy and quick, then bam you get hit by symbol of weakness. Suddenly your ac drops, you need to alter your tactics

Just one example where it makes the game a little more 'complex' (in a good way)

What isn't good about it is useless stuff weighing you down. Gems, collectibles, ingredients, components etc. shouldn't affect your character's encumbrance

I would miss encumbrance if it went away. Casters would never have to consider strength again at all.. it's the removal of a dimension of play. It negates the primary effect of enemy mob strength-drain spells and abilities. It negates a whole facet of monk considerations.
Honestly, it'd be bad if encumbrance were to be removed- it'd just be an element of streamlining, and in the end, it's not the streamlined things you remember, it's the things with edges. Sure, you may enjoy that book or movie for being a simple, straight to the point, predictable but energetic offering.. but it's the entertainment that offers dimension that we'll remember, and keep remembering.
All too often Turbine forgets this- as update 13's current notes clearly show. Madstone rage not preventing spellcasting? What is the use of the Madstone rod, then? What's the real interest, and theme of Madstone? Changing them to a morale bonus, so we can no longer to rage stack builds?

Seriously, stop focusing on ways to make the game generic. It's getting a bit frustrating.

As far as the quoted bit, dragonshard fragments might benefit from a weight reduction. In fact, shouldn't they be the same weight as their condensed forms, not more? Do we waste that much mass in the process?

Likewise, weight limitations shouldn't jump so sharply. Have you looked at the carrying capacities as you increase strength? It looks like an exponential equation. Some more linearity might be nice there- this is, after all, not 1st/2nd edition anymore, where stats DID work off that mechanism. This is 3rd edition, where bonuses are.. well, linear. Add in the nature of DDO, the lack of pack mules [of equine and npc variety] and.. it suits.

But yes, it's bag slots that are the real inventory issue. I'm fine with melees being able to carry more without being encumbered, but why are casters so heavily penalized for their components, materials, wands, and so forth?
I'll have melees with three bag slots empty, and casters with.. 4 slots empty. That's a big difference, no? And, isn't carrying capacity- that is, strength- supposed to be the limiter of the amount you can carry, not class?

[Aaxeyu]

Because your a freaking adventurer! even if your a caster, your traveling through rough terrain everyday, jumping around avoiding all kinds of ****, and are able to at least tank one hit from a freaking GIANT.

Did you even read my post??
How exactly is it realistic to be " jumping around avoiding all kinds of ****" if you are carrying 100 full plates or a metric ton of loot?

The only possible way that is realistic is if we asume that we keep the loot in some magical space where it has no weight.


you need to have some strength for that. I never mentioned numbers (18 strength on a caster? uh... ok...)

You didn't have to mention any numbers, they are already ingame.
You are defending the realism of a system in which you can carry 100 full plates weighing thousands of kgs on your person and still actively fight. If you ask me that is just ridiculous.