Fortification...Better get 125%-150%

[Theolin]

This could make some mobs in Amarath & IQ very very painful to low HP toons.... and even some average HP toons as well.... I don't even want to think about some epic rogue mobs :eek:



Monsters with rogue levels and the Sneak Attack ability now have the ability to reduce fortification to personal attacks to some degree. For example, a CR 10 bugbear assassin with 4 Sneak Attack dice will now be able to critically-hit someone with heavy fortification approximately 10% of the time. That same bugbear will be unable to critically hit a character with 110% fortification.

[Bacab]

or...don't expect to take low HP toons into end-game-ish stuff?

[Xenostrata]

or...don't expect to take low HP toons into end-game-ish stuff?

I don't even want to know how many sneak attack dice a CR 38 rogue gets.

[BlackSteel]

yay for making enemy rogues actually threatening. granted they'll be extremely streaky. not necessarily a bad thing



it actually gives me an idea for a 'caster nerf'

[Ytteri]

I don't even want to know how many sneak attack dice a CR 38 rogue gets.

19d6, and that's assuming they don't have any enhancements like sneak attack training, assassin or the capstone.

[ainmosni]

19d6, and that's assuming they don't have any enhancements like sneak attack training, assassin or the capstone.

Add in a critical hit for a with full dungeon scaling in effect and we're in for some fun times up ahead.

[Bacab]

Yeah, it will make Crowd Control more important...

It will also make WF the best again...which is where they belong...since it is my favorite race!

j/k about the last part...sorta. WF are my favorite race, but they don't deserve to be number 1 because of this.

Though, I do think this may have people making WF again more. Also it will make WIZ, SOR and ART that have reconstruction enhancements more important. I always enjoyed playing my WIZ like a CC Cleric (in WF parties). I would toss out mass holds and disco balls and recon the WF melees.

[Xenostrata]

Yeah, it will make Crowd Control more important...

It will also make WF the best again...which is where they belong...since it is my favorite race!

j/k about the last part...sorta. WF are my favorite race, but they don't deserve to be number 1 because of this.

Though, I do think this may have people making WF again more. Also it will make WIZ, SOR and ART that have reconstruction enhancements more important. I always enjoyed playing my WIZ like a CC Cleric (in WF parties). I would toss out mass holds and disco balls and recon the WF melees.

Lots of drow rogues. Not so easy to crowd control those little buggers.

[Jiipster]

You know what other mobs also have sneak attack? Bearded Devils.

[grodon9999]

It's another melee nerf.

WF casters and PMs have nothing to worry about.

Melees once again get the shaft.

[redspecter23]

Well the simple answer is just to avoid taking melee altogether and stick with casters that generally don't have to engage in close combat to be effective. Perhaps that was just a bit too "tin foil hat" of me, but this comes at the same time as a madstone nerf and a deadly weapons nerf (or fix depending how you look at it). It sure doesn't seem like a good time to be a melee at all. Didn't the major say they were looking at ways to balance melee/caster a bit more? Perhaps the caster nerfs are still to come :eek:

[sephiroth1084]

yay for making enemy rogues actually threatening. granted they'll be extremely streaky. not necessarily a bad thing

Agreed.

To all those complaining about this:

We've merely become too complacent with the game, because everyone from level 11 onward is immune to crits and immune to sneak attacks. The devs counter this a little by giving some monsters excessively high standard damage. We lose the randomness of spikes in favor of a much higher general amount of damage coming in, and have adjusted accordingly. That, to me, is not very good for the game. It's uninteresting and uniform.

We have ways to bypass enemy fortification, and they should have ways to bypass ours.

[Kabaon]

All I can say is... glad my pale master will have 200% fort XD

Edit: Sorry, HAS 200% fort XD

[Quarterling]

What Sephiroth said. It seems like rogues finally get some love; albeit NPC rogues, but I have a deep personal connection with them and am for one happy they will finally get some sneak attack goodness. Better start investing in spot/listen! :)

[grodon9999]

Agreed.

To all those complaining about this:

We've merely become too complacent with the game, because everyone from level 11 onward is immune to crits and immune to sneak attacks. The devs counter this a little by giving some monsters excessively high standard damage. We lose the randomness of spikes in favor of a much higher general amount of damage coming in, and have adjusted accordingly. That, to me, is not very good for the game. It's uninteresting and uniform.

We have ways to bypass enemy fortification, and they should have ways to bypass ours.

If AC worked as a means of damage mitigation in all levels of play I'd have no issue with this.

As it stands now it's simply a melee nerf that doesn't affect casters, nothing more.

[Quarterling]

If AC worked as a means of damage mitigation in all levels of play I'd have no issue with this.

As it stands now it's simply a melee nerf that doesn't affect casters, nothing more.

To be fair, we've been critting on mobs while they haven't been critting on us ever since level 11 (or sooner if you get that ML 9 Nightforge Gorget). It would be really nice though if some enemies started to carry multiple weapons. For example, if they see a pale master, they would attack with disrupters.

I must say this though, at least it's not nerfing melee's damage output...

[Angelus_dead]

We have ways to bypass enemy fortification, and they should have ways to bypass ours.
However, it would be better if the system for obtaining and bypassing Fortification was designed for better gameplay, primarily by scaling better with character features.

The current method of every player pretty easily getting 100% or 125% Fort, but it being very difficult to increase any beyond that... isn't very good. A better Fortification system would probably be tied into the AC system, or otherwise use opposed 20 rolls between the attacker and defender.

Aside from that, it would probably be better gameplay if these monster Rogues didn't wind up with a 5-20% chance for HUGE extra damage on top of their regular hit, and instead they got 5-20% of their normal Sneak Attack bonus applied to all qualifying attacks. That method would provide enemies with the same DPS, without making them as likely to randomly explode a less-lucky player.

[sephiroth1084]

If AC worked as a means of damage mitigation in all levels of play I'd have no issue with this.

As it stands now it's simply a melee nerf that doesn't affect casters, nothing more.
How does it not affect casters? It doesn't affect PALE MASTERS, but that's it. Melee WF are just as unaffected, or lightly affected, as WF casters. Fleshy sorcerers and non-PM fleshy wizards are just as affected by this as melees are.

Really, the specter of caster/melee imbalance is getting over-used on the forums.

One can hope that AC gets addressed in a real way soon, but we've also been getting a few items that grant exceptional Fortification. Everyone was scoffing at Omniscience, but it doesn't look so bad now, does it? The Epic Chimera's Fang grants a big stacking bonus to Fort. I think there are a couple of items that grant stacking 10% Fort also, aren't there?

Monsters have been able to do this to us since the changes to Improved Sunder and Destruction, haven't they? Were people whining about this stuff then?

[sephiroth1084]

However, it would be better if the system for obtaining and bypassing Fortification was designed for better gameplay, primarily by scaling better with character features.

The current method of every player pretty easily getting 100% or 125% Fort, but it being very difficult to increase any beyond that... isn't very good. A better Fortification system would probably be tied into the AC system, or otherwise use opposed 20 rolls between the attacker and defender.
Agreed.


Aside from that, it would probably be better gameplay if these monster Rogues didn't wind up with a 5-20% chance for HUGE extra damage on top of their regular hit, and instead they got 5-20% of their normal Sneak Attack bonus applied to all qualifying attacks. That method would provide enemies with the same DPS, without making them as likely to randomly explode a less-lucky player.
Isn't this what they did? Don't "striker" types have big melee damage? I feel like the rogues in Mindsunder have much higher damage/swing than the fighter types in there do.

[LeLoric]

How does it not affect casters? It doesn't affect PALE MASTERS, but that's it. Melee WF are just as unaffected, or lightly affected, as WF casters. Fleshy sorcerers and non-PM fleshy wizards are just as affected by this as melees are.

Really, the specter of caster/melee imbalance is getting over-used on the forums.

One can hope that AC gets addressed in a real way soon, but we've also been getting a few items that grant exceptional Fortification. Everyone was scoffing at Omniscience, but it doesn't look so bad now, does it? The Epic Chimera's Fang grants a big stacking bonus to Fort. I think there are a couple of items that grant stacking 10% Fort also, aren't there?

Monsters have been able to do this to us since the changes to Improved Sunder and Destruction, haven't they? Were people whining about this stuff then?

I agree if this didnt affect casters then why do caster wear fort items anyways?

As far as monsters being able to do this to us via improved sunder though they can't. They get an ac debuff on us when they land it but no fort reduction. Verified both live an don the new lamannia that ccame up today.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

Don't like the idea of being crit again, but I accepted that when they implemented Inspire Recklessness.

Basically any non-WF is susceptible to this mechanic even with a Heavy Fort item. I'm gonna TR my Barbarian into a Half-Orc soon anyway, so it's no big deal to me. It actually makes things more random and interesting.

I strive to become invincible, but I never want to reach it. I'd never know what to do when I got there and things would just be so boring that I'd stop playing altogether.

[Angelus_dead]

Isn't this what they did? Don't "striker" types have big melee damage? I feel like the rogues in Mindsunder have much higher damage/swing than the fighter types in there do.
That's a different design choice that already happened in the past. What I was referring to was an alternate way of implementing the new feature under discussion here, where enemy Rogues get a 10% chance to bypass Fortification.

If monster A has a 20% chance for +9d6 damage and monster B adds 20% of 9d6 to every attack, then they both gain exactly the same DPS from Sneak Attacks. But monster A's damage comes in surprising bursts, instead of being evenly distributed, giving it a good chance to occasionally squash someone with 1-2 lucky sneaks.

Since high-level monsters have already been designed with high damage (on the assumption that they will NEVER crit anyone), giving them occasional higher burst damage won't be helpful.



Monsters have been able to do this to us since the changes to Improved Sunder and Destruction, haven't they? Were people whining about this stuff then?
Usually when a monster Sunders me, I still have 100% Fortification.

[sirgog]

That's a different design choice that already happened in the past. What I was referring to was an alternate way of implementing the new feature under discussion here, where enemy Rogues get a 10% chance to bypass Fortification.

If monster A has a 20% chance for +9d6 damage and monster B adds 20% of 9d6 to every attack, then they both gain exactly the same DPS from Sneak Attacks. But monster A's damage comes in surprising bursts, instead of being evenly distributed, giving it a good chance to occasionally squash someone with 1-2 lucky sneaks.

Since high-level monsters have already been designed with high damage (on the assumption that they will NEVER crit anyone), giving them occasional higher burst damage won't be helpful.




Almost all endgame mobs have been designed with 'soft' crits. Only Epic Velah crits really hard (and the Lord of Blades has two special attacks that crit hard, but players only get hit by them at all if they have made a mistake).

Try taking off your Fortification item to see how hard a boss crits you. The worst spike damage in the game comes from failing saves on spells, not from taking melee critical hits.


Examples:

Elite Arraetrikos:
DBF: 250 average on failed save
Melee crit: 180ish

Elite Suulomades:
Chain Lightning: 250ish on failed save
Melee crit: 200ish

Elite Horoth:
Disintegrate: 500ish on failed save
Meteor Swarm: 280ish through 30 resist on quadruple failed save (400 if you are silly enough to engage without fire resist)
Melee crit: 280ish

Turigulon:
Disintegrate: 200ish
Melee crit: 200ish

Epic Lord of Blades:
Cometfall: 300ish
Melee crit, standard attack: 300ish
Crit, 'Jump to the sky and land on your head' attack: 900ish (ouch, you should probably dodge this one)


It's really the bosses and trash EARLIER in the game that have devastating crits. Gianthold trash often crits for 120 on Elite.


Oh and on Sunder: The monster version of Imp Sunder doesn't drop Fort. The monster version of Destruction does, but I can think of only one mob (Kai-Teng Fairuza) that uses it.

[GeneralDiomedes]

In principle, this is welcome news. Variable enemy damage adds an element of excitement to combat that is mostly missing from the game. Obviously there are some balance issues that need to be worked out.

I do wish they take this line of thinking further and consider reworking other immunities such as
- Deathward offering % immunity against energy drain
- Deathward offering % immunity or resist X against negative energy
- Shield offering % immunity or resist X against magic/force/chain missile
- Freedom of Movement offering % immunity to holds
- Holy Aura offering % immunity to enchantment effects

[Faent]

I don't even know what to say. The mind boggles.

[sephiroth1084]

I'd rather see overall damage lowered a tiny bit, and get some more spikes in than simply add spikes to the existing damage.

[bhgiant]

Time to reroll my 13con Drow into a 16Con dwarf. I'm going to miss my inherent spell resistance and rapier damage boosts...

But on a less "Doom"ish note, they've had exceptional fortification items long before now with absolutely no use to them. We will all adapt, get the extra fort, and move on. The end.

[Razcar]

Now I would like to see this applied to PC rogues please. If an NPC gets a 10% Fortification bypass at 4 sneak attack dice, give PC rogues 2,5% bypass per S.A. dice as well.

[Quarterling]

Now I would like to see this applied to PC rogues please. If an NPC gets a 10% Fortification bypass at 4 sneak attack dice, give PC rogues 2,5% bypass per S.A. dice as well.

That is irrelevant for player characters since almost all trash mobs (and most red-named bosses even) have zero fortification. By the time rogues are level twenty, they automatically get 50% bypass which is really overpowered given it's completely free of charge.

[slimkj]

we're in for some fun times up ahead.
Indeed! A welcome change.

[Postumus]

19d6, and that's assuming they don't have any enhancements like sneak attack training, assassin or the capstone.

owwwwwwiieeee. That's gonna hurt.

So how much fort will be 'enough fort' or 'minimum fort' now?

[Razcar]

That is irrelevant for player characters since almost all trash mobs (and most red-named bosses even) have zero fortification. By the time rogues are level twenty, they automatically get 50% bypass which is really overpowered given it's completely free of charge.
We are getting 50% automatic bypass? Can you link please? Or are you talking about my suggestion above? You worded it like it is a new ability coming.

17 S.A dice would be 42,5% bypass, yeah, maybe a bit too much, but not "free of charge" - that would cost 19 levels of rogue. Lower it to 1,5% per SA dice then. There's lots of raid bosses that have Fort now, especially on harder difficulties.

[voodoogroves]

19d6, and that's assuming they don't have any enhancements like sneak attack training, assassin or the capstone.

CR does not equate to character levels. A half dragon half fiend drow rogue may be CR 38 but only have 20 ish rogue levels. A CR 38 Ogre rogue would only have 34 or so Rogue levels (the others from hit dice).


Of course, DDO mucks this pretty well anyway ... so who knows how they scale it.

[aerendhil]

Epic Chimera's Fang just got that much better.
(so does the Fabricator Set)

[grodon9999]

I'd rather see overall damage lowered a tiny bit, and get some more spikes in than simply add spikes to the existing damage.

I'd be okay with that.

[somenewnoob]

So maybe high AC or heavy armor could lessen the fort reduction.................just throwing it out there! :D

[Syllph]

this is awesome! Bring some fear of the Gods back into us. Being immune to sneak attack has been sweet but kind of silly. We should fear enemies and not be immune to everything!

Good job on this

[grodon9999]

However, it would be better if the system for obtaining and bypassing Fortification was designed for better gameplay, primarily by scaling better with character features.

The current method of every player pretty easily getting 100% or 125% Fort, but it being very difficult to increase any beyond that... isn't very good. A better Fortification system would probably be tied into the AC system, or otherwise use opposed 20 rolls between the attacker and defender.

Aside from that, it would probably be better gameplay if these monster Rogues didn't wind up with a 5-20% chance for HUGE extra damage on top of their regular hit, and instead they got 5-20% of their normal Sneak Attack bonus applied to all qualifying attacks. That method would provide enemies with the same DPS, without making them as likely to randomly explode a less-lucky player.


Fortification should simply work as a negative seeker effect, that's how it would work in a better designed game.

[grodon9999]

I agree if this didnt affect casters then why do caster wear fort items anyways?

As far as monsters being able to do this to us via improved sunder though they can't. They get an ac debuff on us when they land it but no fort reduction. Verified both live an don the new lamannia that ccame up today.

Okay, this affects that 4% of fleshie non-PMs and sorcs who aren't noobs off of Korthos. For the other 95% of end-game casters who are either PM or WF this fortification change doesn't affect.

It's another melee nerf in a game that doesn't need any more melee nerfs.

[somenewnoob]

It's another melee nerf in a game that doesn't need any more melee nerfs.

This a million times. (and a +1 when I can again)

[Scraap]

Some of us still have the odd 'forged melee (what, I'm already working on 2 TRs). Heal amp loss + deconstruct vulnerability vs fewer crits and SA damage. Might even out. Probably wont, but might.

[Emili]

I agree if this didnt affect casters then why do caster wear fort items anyways?

As far as monsters being able to do this to us via improved sunder though they can't. They get an ac debuff on us when they land it but no fort reduction. Verified both live an don the new lamannia that ccame up today.

Yes casters wear heavy fort so they do not get crit by that one or two hits they might take in a bad unruley encounter. Most the time casters rarely take any mob melee strikes at all.

Be in essence this change really only affects those who are toe-to-toe with melee type mob to begin with.

Personally I have no issues with this... provided they adjust the mob damage to accomodate.

I do not believe in melee with multiple toughness feats - fighters should not be even considering more than one - but turbine made most the basic feats in game pretty much ****... I think it been a far flung thing that HP buffer become the main concern in this game for every class. Be totally ridiculas

[Cyr]

So this is yet another melee nerf with lesser effects on casters for this mod.

The developers are going in the wrong way on class balance.

Who is steering this ship at Turbine?

[Kaldaka]

Warforged this, caster vs melee nerf that ...

Shenanigans! This is a nerf that affects healers the most.

[somenewnoob]

So this is yet another melee nerf with lesser effects on casters for this mod.

The developers are going in the wrong way on class balance.

Who is steering this ship at Turbine?

http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q528/chriscuster/monk2.jpg

[grodon9999]

Who is steering this ship at Turbine?

Elminster, he's taken over. First FR and not this.

Either that or somebody who REALLY doesn't like Shade :)

[Kaldaka]

... And based upon conversations I had yesterday with some folks, it seems this change is already in effect on the LIVE SERVERS in Madstone Crater (maybe elsewhere??) ...

[quijenoth]

I'm all for this TBH, yes PMs and Warforged will have an easier time of it overall but as someone said, we will adapt.

What does concern me is the rogue type mobs that have a high base damage but dish out a lot more DPS due to duel wielding. I'm looking at Bargain of Blood and other sentinels quests as an example, the DPS from the rogues in there is equal to regular fighter mobs but increased by their attack rate. if they now get sneak attack chances in addition to the inflated damage this could prove very painful for everyone.

Please turbine if you going to give the mobs increased chances at burst damage, reduce their constant damage compared to other mobs.

[elraido]

My main already has 150% fort...he isn't afraid of no stinking rogue. :D

[voodoogroves]

I'm actually kinda happy that this is also a pseudo nerf on yugo pots or will require casters to devote more gear to fort.

[grodon9999]

I'm actually kinda happy that this is also a pseudo nerf on yugo pots or will require casters to devote more gear to fort.

Not PMs.

[Sarisa]

Warforged this, caster vs melee nerf that ...

Shenanigans! This is a nerf that affects healers the most.

Sadly true. Won't hurt most WF casters. Won't hurt PM's. Will hurt lower HP characters. Will hurt anyone who has to heal the new major increase in spike damage.

[somenewnoob]

I think with this change it's about time we got some higher dr and more stacking dr.

Damage output has increased so much, and most people are still stuck at dr 5.

That's a little out of whack IMO. All that keeps happening is more and more reliance on healers.

[voodoogroves]

Not PMs.
If the debuff stops at 10% sure ... but if there are more and more sunders, sneaks, etc. coming PMs would need to slot full fortificiation.

[Ayseifn]

Anyone test how it works yet? Do you need to face them and not be incap/blind/etc. to be immune or have them targeted or does it always work?

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Lots of drow rogues. Not so easy to crowd control those little buggers.

One word. Web. Super easy with a DC 43+ (which is easy to achieve on an AM Wiz)

[grodon9999]

If the debuff stops at 10% sure ... but if there are more and more sunders, sneaks, etc. coming PMs would need to slot full fortificiation.

SO what? everyone else slots 100%. 200% isn't enough for a PM as a base? If the mops get enough fort debuffs to put PMs in danger the rest of us are all dead anyway.

Look, we might all be over-reacting if this is part of a larger defensive/AC/fortification change that we're not aware of. But on face value without knowing anything else our reaction is completely appropriate.

It's a nerf that affect melees a lot more than it affects casters.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Not PMs.

Only affects INT pots, as a matter of fact.

[grodon9999]

One word. Web. Super easy with a DC 43+ (which is easy to achieve on an AM Wiz)

And yet another reason melees need a caster holding it's hands to not be worthless.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

And yet another reason melees need a caster holding it's hands to not be worthless.

And casters need melees to kill meaningful, non CC-able mobs? What's your point? It's a team-based game, you know.

[voodoogroves]

Look, we might all be over-reacting if this is part of a larger defensive/AC/fortification change that we're not aware of. But on face value without knowing anything else our reaction is completely appropriate.
You're probably right on this


It's a nerf that affect melees a lot more than it affects casters.

My mindset is that I keep seeing more and more things that improve fortification that'd be slotted on a melee or part of a PRE, but less things that a caster would take. My initial reaction was "maybe this gives a cost to DoT tanking".

I'm all for reducing the usefulness of DoT tanking. It's like the old intimitanking boringness.

[grodon9999]

And casters need melees to kill meaningful, non CC-able mobs? What's your point? It's a team-based game, you know.

On what planet do casters need melees for to do this? DOT and shield-block.

[Havok.cry]

I primarily play casters. My freinds mostly play melee. My caster doesn't have much fun when my freinds are not playing cause its not fun for them anymore. Stop nerfing my casters fun please.

[Thrudh]

Either that or somebody who REALLY doesn't like Shade :)

That doesn't narrow it down much.... ;) I kid, I kid!

[DrakHar]

I primarily play casters. My freinds mostly play melee. My caster doesn't have much fun when my freinds are not playing cause its not fun for them anymore. Stop nerfing my casters fun please.

Agreed... does Turbine even want us to play melees? I humbly request that they just be removed from the game. It's obvious they don't want us playing them.

What gets me is that they dont understand this is a melee nerf when it's obvious to the playerbase less than an hour after seeing it. They desperately need to hire someone who actually PLAYS the game.

[maddmatt70]

There is going to be more fortification gear obvoiusly. You all aready saw the new short sword which is a fort reducer. There will be at least one fort item enhancer in the other two quests. Melee are going to have to wear a higher fortification item at least situationally when they battle alot of rogues. I would find it ironic if the new fortification was boots which would be easier to slot what with the nerf to madstone. This means a little less dps for melee, but they have to be congnizant of more defensive factors thus rewarding awareness.

[somenewnoob]

snip
This means a little dps less for melee, but they have to be congnizant of more defensive factors thus rewarding awareness.

Because if there is anything that needs to happen to melee dps......it needs to be reduced!
:rolleyes:

[Theolin]

Well this created a lot of excitement .... and all I was doing was pointing it out so those who read these things can go and get the items so we can pick on those who don't :D

Will agree, this does hit melee harder than it does arcanes and messes with healers in the pots

[grodon9999]

There is going to be more fortification gear obvoiusly. You all aready saw the new short sword which is a fort reducer. There will be at least one fort item enhancer in the other two quests. Melee are going to have to wear a higher fortification item at least situationally when they battle alot of rogues. I would find it ironic if the new fortification was boots which would be easier to slot what with the nerf to madstone. This means a little less dps for melee, but they have to be congnizant of more defensive factors thus rewarding awareness.

Then allow body-piecing because until I can put on ring on my junk I don't have any more gear slots.

The last thing melee needs at this point in time is a DPS reduction or ANY nerf whatsoever.

[voodoogroves]

There is going to be more fortification gear obvoiusly. You all aready saw the new short sword which is a fort reducer. There will be at least one fort item enhancer in the other two quests. Melee are going to have to wear a higher fortification item at least situationally when they battle alot of rogues. I would find it ironic if the new fortification was boots which would be easier to slot what with the nerf to madstone. This means a little less dps for melee, but they have to be congnizant of more defensive factors thus rewarding awareness.

Or as junk mentioned we could be over-reacting because the new melee and race-based enhancement trees may have fort increasing options.

If every Tempest has a bit of Stalwart, it's less of a deal.


........... but we're in kinda react mode.

[somenewnoob]

Then allow body-piecing because until I can put on ring on my junk I don't have any more gear slots.

The last thing melee needs at this point in time is a DPS reduction or ANY nerf whatsoever.

No kidding.

Jesus devs.....THROW THE MELEES A BONE (pun intended in reference to grodon's junk) EVERY NOW AND THEN!

[maddmatt70]

Or as junk mentioned we could be over-reacting because the new melee and race-based enhancement trees may have fort increasing options.

If every Tempest has a bit of Stalwart, it's less of a deal.


........... but we're in kinda react mode.

True they will likely put this in enhancements as well. Really the overreaction on these forums is tiresome. The devs are dramatically changing the game in 7 months so complaints about madstone and fortification being nerfed and the rampant conclusions that the devs are purposesfully nerfing melee seems silly when they could be giving melee a huge buff in the expansion. Lets see what the landscape will be like in 7 months before making an analysis.

[somenewnoob]

True they will likely put this in enhancements as well. Really the overreaction on these forums is tiresome. The devs are dramatically changing the game in 7 months so complaints about madstone and fortification being nerfed and the rampant conclusions that the devs are purposesfully nerfing melee seems silly when they could be giving melee a huge buff in the expansion. Lets see what the landscape will be like in 7 months before making an analysis.

Ah yes, the "continue to take it because later I might get a reach around" approach.

[grodon9999]

True they will likely put this in enhancements as well. Really the overreaction on these forums is tiresome. The devs are dramatically changing the game in 7 months so complaints about madstone and fortification being nerfed and the rampant conclusions that the devs are purposesfully nerfing melee seems silly when they could be giving melee a huge buff in the expansion. Lets see what the landscape will be like in 7 months before making an analysis.

BS - our "the devs are nerfing melees" conclusions are completely reasonable based on Turbine's track record. These are the same people who made this mess in the first place.

If they told us more, asked for feedback, etc . . . then you might not have a point but I cannot put much faith in Turbine making all of this right if all I see are the nerfs.

[Tomalon]

:eek:
All I can say is... glad my pale master will have 200% fort XD

Edit: Sorry, HAS 200% fort XD

Till you drink that YUGO INT pot.......:eek:

[sweez]

And casters need melees to kill meaningful, non CC-able mobs? What's your point? It's a team-based game, you know.

Ever heard of dots?

[LeLoric]

Or as junk mentioned we could be over-reacting because the new melee and race-based enhancement trees may have fort increasing options.

If every Tempest has a bit of Stalwart, it's less of a deal.


........... but we're in kinda react mode.

From the few hits I took on my ranger in the new epic content it's not really that big of deal. For some reason most mobs use 19-20/x2 weapons and forgot to take imp crit. 10% of the time they crit and another 10% of that they bypass your fort that means they get crit hits 1% of the time. And when they do it's not that big of dmg spike.

Sneak attacks are a bit different but theres no mob running around with 19d6 sneak attack dice + another 20 from enhancements and gear. Solo sins may only be slightly harder now.

I actually would like to see a more dynamic fortification scale in which very few can obtain full crit immunity.

[Thrudh]

Ah yes, the "continue to take it because later I might get a reach around" approach.

LOL... I wish I was brave enough to sig that!

[voodoogroves]

I actually would like to see a more dynamic fortification scale in which very few can obtain full crit immunity.

Sure, a more focused investment in gear. If you want to "withstand", be built to "withstand".

[somenewnoob]

LOL... I wish I was brave enough to sig that!

heh heh.....hey I've made 2 sigs today, I'm on a roll!

I need to pull a George Costanza and just leave work now on a high note.

[Cyr]

True they will likely put this in enhancements as well. Really the overreaction on these forums is tiresome. The devs are dramatically changing the game in 7 months so complaints about madstone and fortification being nerfed and the rampant conclusions that the devs are purposesfully nerfing melee seems silly when they could be giving melee a huge buff in the expansion. Lets see what the landscape will be like in 7 months before making an analysis.

That is about as backwords as it can get.

Nerf someone who is behind because in the future you are going to buff them through another system.

How about just not buffing them quite as much with the new system if your initial plans look a little drastic? I mean really it is that simple. You do not nerf something pre-emptively because you are going to overbuff it in the future. That is not even close to logical.

[grodon9999]

From the few hits I took on my ranger in the new epic content it's not really that big of deal. For some reason most mobs use 19-20/x2 weapons and forgot to take imp crit. 10% of the time they crit and another 10% of that they bypass your fort that means they get crit hits 1% of the time. And when they do it's not that big of dmg spike.

Sneak attacks are a bit different but theres no mob running around with 19d6 sneak attack dice + another 20 from enhancements and gear. Solo sins may only be slightly harder now.

Let me know how EDA goes with CR38 Bearded devils running around :)



I actually would like to see a more dynamic fortification scale in which very few can obtain full crit immunity.

I would to, and I wouldn't mind getting critted once in a while if I could get MISSED more than 5% of the time in epics.

As part of a huge holistic change this might not be that bad but Turbine needs to show us the full monte and let us know what else they have in mind. Otherwise it's just another nerf to us.

[maddmatt70]

That is about as backwords as it can get.

Nerf someone who is behind because in the future you are going to buff them through another system.

How about just not buffing them quite as much with the new system if your initial plans look a little drastic? I mean really it is that simple. You do not nerf something pre-emptively because you are going to overbuff it in the future. That is not even close to logical.

The logic is having a non static fortificaton variable adds another defensive variable to the equation and rewards player awareness which is a good thing.

The logic for madstone is it is an overpowered level 14 item that is used by many as a clicky and favors some classes over others. The devs decision to nerf this item and make it more useable to other classes is valid.

This is not a huge nerf to melee but a couple of tiny ones haha. Go overdramatic forums. Come this summer we get a massive melee bump.

[LeLoric]

Let me know how EDA goes with CR38 Bearded devils running around :)



I don't turn off recklessness in there and it's not a problem. It's the same thing 10% bypass. Mobs do not get the same kind of scaling to their sneak attack of 1d6 per two levels.

[somenewnoob]

This is not a huge nerf to melee but a couple of tiny ones haha. Go overdramatic forums. Come this summer we get a massive melee bump.

Well unless you want to share your foresight and knowledge, everybody is WELL JUSTIFIED in being ****ed.

But by all means, please share with the rest of us. Unless you are just talking out of your ass or going off one vague post.

[Astraghal]

This could be a way for Turbine to add in Fortification increases at set level incriments for Barbarians and Fighters when they redo the Enhancements. For example, a Fighter gains 20% stacking Fortification at level 12, or a Barbarian gains 5% stacking Fortification every 2 levels etc. There are lots of ways the melee classes which need a power increase could get it. Especially with existing effects already in the game, like Fortification.

[Cyr]

The logic is having a non static fortificaton variable adds another defensive variable to the equation and rewards player awareness which is a good thing.

The logic for madstone is it is an overpowered level 14 item that is used by many as a clicky and favors some classes over others. The devs decision to nerf this item and make it more useable to other classes is valid.

This is not a huge nerf to melee but a couple of tiny ones haha. Go overdramatic forums. Come this summer we get a massive melee bump.

A. Madstone is OP...BS it's been in the game for a very very long time and back then it made a MUCH BIGGER percentage increase in scores. Now it actually does less for you at cap and even at the same level. If it was not broken for the years it was in game and having a bigger effect then now then it's not OP now. Oh and they are a being changed to be better for FvS dot tanking which is one of the most powerful builds out there.

B. It's not a reward when you have to sacrifice things to counter act it. In this case gear slots and/or possible AP in the future. Meanwhile a warforged arcane or FvS would be good to go and the first one is generally going to be hit alot less then melee to begin with. So no that is not 'better'. It's dumb design because it adds more variability requiring sacrifice from those who are more at the middle/bottom of the heap. The time for this type of thing is when melee actually is top of the pack.

C. No come this summer we are told that we will get a melee boost. We have seen zero system driven reasons why this is actually going to be true though anymore then it is going to boost the top of the pack builds. So we are told 'hey we know that melee is weak now so we are going to buff them' and then we find out that nope the opposite is happening before hand. Does that really make you believe that the devs know what they are doing and/or are being honest about their intentions?

[Qzipoun]

Skipped most of the thread but can someone confirm that if you have an enemy rogue targeted they CANNOT SA you? Since they would have your 'aggro'

If so, then as long as the % chance is reasonably low, this isn't as big of an issue. But if it gets to a point where high level rogues are doing significantly more damage than non-rogues I think it would be a problem

[ainmosni]

/vote make velah an assassin rogue.

[NaturalHazard]

This could be a way for Turbine to add in Fortification increases at set level incriments for Barbarians and Fighters when they redo the Enhancements. For example, a Fighter gains 20% stacking Fortification at level 12, or a Barbarian gains 5% stacking Fortification every 2 levels etc. There are lots of ways the melee classes which need a power increase could get it. Especially with existing effects already in the game, like Fortification.

please dont forget the Paladins,rangers,monks,rogues and heck even bards, when it comes to discusing melee its always barbarians this, fighters that, but they are not the only classes that use melee combate for as a large portion of their playstlye.

[-Zephyr-]

My human evoker FvS and my yugo-pot using WF AM disagree that "casters will once again be totally unaffected while melees take all in their face".

Aside from that, maybe more people will learn that you can slot up to 20% fortification in guild slots...

[Astraghal]

please dont forget the Paladins,rangers,monks,rogues and heck even bards, when it comes to discusing melee its always barbarians this, fighters that, but they are not the only classes that use melee combate for as a large portion of their playstlye.

Those other classes all have their benefits, so I think that they should stay around where they are now in terms of power. Bards could use a tweak to Enhancements, Paladins and Rangers could use a slight boost. Monks and Rogues are overpowered compared to the other so-called melee classes. Barbarians and Fighters are the definitive traditional melee classes, so they have almost no abilities beyond swinging a weapon at a target. So they need to be head and shoulders above the rest at doing that. The Barbarian needs to excel at durability and damage-dealing, the Fighter at combat tactics and controlling his enemies.

[Ausdoerrt]

The way it's worded makes me wonder... Is it a static 10% bypass, or is it 1% per 1CR? If it's the latter, then well, the game will need buffs to gear and new spells.


Those other classes all have their benefits, so I think that they should stay around where they are now in terms of power. Bards could use a tweak to Enhancements, Paladins and Rangers could use a slight boost. Monks and Rogues are overpowered compared to the other so-called melee classes. Barbarians and Fighters are the definitive traditional melee classes, so they have almost no abilities beyond swinging a weapon at a target. So they need to be head and shoulders above the rest at doing that. The Barbarian needs to excel at durability and damage-dealing, the Fighter at combat tactics and controlling his enemies.

You DO realize that if, as per your suggestion, ONLY fighters/barbs get +%fort enhancement line, nobody will want to take a melee of another class into challenging high-level content? I'm sure there are people that'd be happy if any classes other that fighter/barb would be eliminated, and healers/bards would do nothing but stand back and keep them up, but I daresay not the majority.

Paladins, in particular, are also a primary melee class and by now a DnD staple. Yes they get special abilities to make up for the "lost" fighter feats, but they should be otherwise on the same level as fighters and barbs.

Rogues are overpowered? Say that to 50+% fort endgame mobs and bosses.

[delsoboss]

... Rogues are overpowered ...

BUAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHAH!!!!

....

BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

......

Oh my ... really? Really?!?!?

[Astraghal]

BUAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHAH!!!!

....

BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

......

Oh my ... really? Really?!?!?

Hehe, yea really. :rolleyes:

[delsoboss]

Hehe, yea really. :rolleyes:

Then i want to be in your parties, and i want to see your LFMs stating "need DPS" and having only the rogue icon lit.

[Vormaerin]

Fleshy sorcerers and non-PM fleshy wizards are just as affected by this as melees are.




No such thing. All forum discussion must revolve around the gameplay style of people who actually want to be elite. And if you play one of those gimps. you obviously don't....

[Cetus]

This is rediculous already!

Anyone who says that casters aren't getting the advantage here is plain ignorant. Forget for a minute that PM's and wf already start above 100%, the fact that casters don't need to stand toe to toe with their enemies to destroy them already makes this a proxy boost to casters.

Oh, now lets remember the extra fortification that some casters have, and we can say goodbye to the melee players in general.

So, whats the list now? The unwarranted madstone boots NERF, the deadly weapons "FIX," and now crittable melees? Or...lose some valuable gear to just not get crit, which brings you back to where you are now, but weaker.

I guess I'll take a break from the game until the devs figure out how to make me want to play the character I invested 19 lives into again. This is terrible.

[Phemt81]

Hehe, yea really. :rolleyes:

What is your personal opinion about... uhm... arcanes?

Back on topic, well, they better do 1% less fortification each 2 CR mobs level, or epics will be even more frustrating than they are (yeah, i know you can solo them all on your 4th life sorcerer, ok...).

Well, i can get 110% fortification at level 5. But that's just me! :cool:

[Aesop]

So... if NPC rogues get this auto fort bypass... can PC rogues get similar?

Even 1% Fort bypass per Sneak Attack Die would be nice. Opportunist can still up that some.


always looking out for my rogues :)


Aesop

[Phemt81]

so... If npc rogues get this auto fort bypass... Can pc rogues get similar?

Even 1% fort bypass per sneak attack die would be nice. Opportunist can still up that some.
Always looking out for my rogues :)

aesop

+1

[Ganolyn]

If AC worked as a means of damage mitigation in all levels of play I'd have no issue with this.

As it stands now it's simply a melee nerf that doesn't affect casters, nothing more.


I haven't read the entire thread, but here's an idea (and forgive me if I botch some types as I am going from memory) -

What if armor from medium grade on up (one grade lower for Mithril of course) gave more incremental Fortification protection something like this:


Chainmail Shirt = +10% Fortification

Chainmail (Hauberk), Breastplate = +20% Fortification

Scalemail, Splintmail = +30% Fortification

Half Plate, Banded Mail = +40% Fortification

Full Plate = +50% Fortification


Combine this with the idea that heavier armors should give natural DR/magic and a shield DR and we might begin to see some traditional S&Bers crop up.

[Astraghal]

Then i want to be in your parties, and i want to see your LFMs stating "need DPS" and having only the rogue icon lit.

Most of the Rogues I group with in random pugs lead the kill count for the melee group. Rogues are trash demolishing machines. Rogues get insta-kills, do insane DPS, have Evasion and UMD. If you think Rogues aren't among the top melee classes, you're doing it wrong.

[Aesop]

I haven't read the entire thread, but here's an idea (and forgive me if I botch some types as I am going from memory) -

What if armor from medium grade on up (one grade lower for Mithril of course) gave more incremental Fortification protection something like this:


Chainmail Shirt = +10% Fortification

Chainmail (Hauberk), Breastplate = +20% Fortification

Scalemail, Splintmail = +30% Fortification

Half Plate, Banded Mail = +40% Fortification

Full Plate = +50% Fortification


Combine this with the idea that heavier armors should give natural DR/magic and a shield DR and we might begin to see some traditional S&Bers crop up.

numbers are too high; theory isn't terrible though.

heck keep it simple.

Light Armor +5% Fort
Medium Armor +15% Fort
Heavy Armor +25% Fort

or go with the Mitigation concept that Shield has (though should be changed a bit)


Armor Mitigation = The Armors AC bonus with Base Heavy Armor (before material type) gaining a +5% bonus and Medium gaining a +2% bonus.

Shield Mitigation = The Shields AC Bonus with Tower Shields gaining a +5% Bonus. Remove the Shield Mastery Feats (as they aren't in the books as far as I recall) add in Shield Specialization which is in the Players Handbook 2 let that improve Mitigation by 5% and Bash by 10%.

This won't negate the Criticals that bypass Fortification but will reduce their impact

Aesop

[Ganolyn]

numbers are too high; theory isn't terrible though.

heck keep it simple.

Light Armor +5% Fort
Medium Armor +15% Fort
Heavy Armor +25% Fort


That may be a might too simple. Remember that Mithral counts as one step lower so Mithral Full Plate would only give 15% and regular Full Plate would give 25%. It has to be based on the type of armor, not its encumbrance rating.

[Yan_PL]

I like the idea of stacking fortification coming with heavier armor types, but as it was pointed out, mithral armors should not get penalized by this in same manner they are being hurt by Stalwart Max Dex bonus increase.

[slimkj]

It's a nerf that affect melees a lot more than it affects casters.
Nah, it affects healers most, as others have said.

I'm looking forward to a game with a bit of variety in it instead of the surround 'n' pound, heal-through-all borefest combat can be at the mo.

[Aesop]

That may be a might too simple. Remember that Mithral counts as one step lower so Mithral Full Plate would only give 15% and regular Full Plate would give 25%. It has to be based on the type of armor, not its encumbrance rating.


That's not an actual problem just count it before taking into account the Material type.

Full Plate is Full Plate, Mithril or not

Aesop