A Comment on Ioun Stones [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

Xenostrata

01-26-2012, 04:58 PM

Desdemonte

01-26-2012, 05:11 PM

/signed

NytCrawlr

01-26-2012, 05:17 PM

"Easily found"? Not sure how much something random, every three attempts, is considered easily found.

The Dreaming Dark

Completing the final quest in this series three times (and every third time thereafter) will offer players a single random Ioun Stone, crafting items, and random loot from its end reward list.

I'm all for special holy grail items, and there are still plenty in this game, but I am also for the kind of loot pass we are finally getting in this next update to be able to kill some of the grind and make some items slightly more available.

LeLoric

01-26-2012, 05:22 PM

I still think the two popular ioun stones will still be fairly rare although not as rare as they are now. Just because theres one that will appear on your end reward doesn't mean theat each will drop equally. In fact all evidence in other parts of the game points to it not being even. I bet the PLIS will easily be the rarest of the items and have a pretty horrific drop rate.

Xenostrata

01-26-2012, 05:22 PM

"Easily found"? Not sure how much something random, every three attempts, is considered easily found.

I'm all for special holy grail items, and there are still plenty in this game, but I am also for the kind of loot pass we are finally getting in this next update to be able to kill some of the grind and make some items slightly more available.

I'm all for killing grind. But giving everyone easy access to an eRoSS isn't killing grind, it's moronic.

You have a 10% chance of finding the ioun stone you're looking for after 3 completions of the QUEST (not the chain). Most people will be able to just run it on casual as many times as they need, and most people will eb able to solo their way to a PLIS in about a day.

Ioun stones are NOT "grind" at the moment. "Grind" implies that you'll be running the same stuff over and over in the hopes of finding it. If anything, they just got MORE grindy - people will actually start running the same stuff over and over in the hopes of finding it.

Some stuff should be left incredibly rare, so that people can feel really lucky when they find it. So long as the item isn't seen as crucial, it's nice to have a little extra something drop randomly every now and then.

Xenostrata

01-26-2012, 05:23 PM

Redicular

01-26-2012, 05:28 PM

huh?

I think it would be best if dropped ioun stones retain their current properties (maybe even get a buff, considering how badly some of them suck)

tems like ioun stones are incredibly useful, highly powerful, but also not at ALL necessary to any character build - "icing on the cake," if you will.

the ones pulled from the end reward list be less powerful

so let me get this straight

some-I assume you mean the stat ones- Ioun stones suck, but they're highly desired, so lets make items that are worse

the only thing that makes ioun stones desired is their rarity and level, to a character that is level 20 already they are almost all worthless, they're a TR tool and having the insane rarity they have is wasted on them anyway

your statement rings of "oh god I had to work for months to get this, everyone else should too" and that is a sentiment I will never support

/not signed

bbqzor

01-26-2012, 05:29 PM

Not signed.

They're already available as a grind. You just grind out 5-7 reds or whatever the going price is on your server, and buy one. It may not have the same wow factor as looting it yourself, but they're readily available to those who are willing to pay with their time.

This (presumably, who knows how the live implementation will go) reduces the grind it takes to get one, and helps the economy by moving towards balance on the supply/demand ratio. As such it makes it something available to all players (more or less), which is fairer to everyone. And tying it to the pack needed to unlock them makes sense, as does using the least run quest from that pack.

As with most 'quest chain' set reward lists, I expect the ones from here will BTA just as loot from waterworks or what not does. If thats the case, it just gives people who want to gather one on their own an avenue to do so, and as a popular item thats a good thing for people to be able to accomplish. Currently, you can run Irestone Inlet or whatever and hope, but thats a shot in the dark and generally frustrating. If anything, completing a quest and finally getting one adds more wow factor for more people than the current situation, while preserving the wow factor of getting a tradeable one.

Just some counterpoint thoughts... I'd much rather people be able to succeed in their goals, than be price gouged or relying on very unlikely lucky drops. Its a game after all, not a lottery or a job, and currently trying to get some of the stones essentially requires either winning the lottery or job-level work. It'll be good to see it as something accessible to the player base in a reasonable format.

LightBear

01-26-2012, 05:31 PM

Not signed.

It's a good thing that now it is within reach for each and every player. To obtain such an item realy is a painfull exercise . On the trade forums the prices are way out proportions.

Ganolyn

01-26-2012, 05:33 PM

I'm more concerned that they won't drop anywhere else but DD now. I know they didn't specifically say that, but they might feel that since they will be giving a steady supply in one place, the random drops can cease.

xoowak

01-26-2012, 05:34 PM

You have a 10% chance of finding the ioun stone you're looking for after 3 completions of the QUEST (not the chain). Most people will be able to just run it on casual as many times as they need, and most people will eb able to solo their way to a PLIS in about a day.

Assuming the third completion mechanic is unaffected by ransack, and the drop rates are equal. I wouldn't expect either of those to be the case.

Also, I would not be the least bit surprised if reward stones were Bind on Aquire.

K_0tiC

01-26-2012, 05:34 PM

Yes I know when I first download a new game and on my first toon @ level 5ish when I loot something that gives me 30sp or whatever or 20absorbs I get over excited, the levels there dropping at currently id say 50% or more of people dont know what there worth and are equiping/using them unupgraded making them btc or in PLIS case wasting them since you cant upgrade it once its charges are eaten iirc much better to have it farmable by someone that knows what it is. Also im sure you dont want to be farming level 5~ quests for random chances @ chests when it can be done in level 20 quests earning loot and renown at level not ml2 junk you dont even pick up. If you want a grind I heard completionist is fun.

Xenostrata

01-26-2012, 05:35 PM

huh?

so let me get this straight

some-I assume you mean the stat ones- Ioun stones suck, but they're highly desired, so lets make items that are worse

the only thing that makes ioun stones desired is their rarity and level, to a character that is level 20 already they are almost all worthless, they're a TR tool and having the insane rarity they have is wasted on them anyway

your statement rings of "oh god I had to work for months to get this, everyone else should too" and that is a sentiment I will never support

/not signed

You completely missed the point. But at least you managed to be righteously indignant about it :rolleyes:

There are 2 highly useful ioun stones. These would be BAD to have readily available to the public.

There are 8 other ioun stones, ranging from moderately useful to completely useless. These could use a buff, and I don't really care if they are easy to find. Also note that they aren't highly desired by the public, they just sell high because they look pretty. Low ML +6 stat items are nice, but those can be easily crafted now.

The whole point of my statement is that I DIDN'T work for months to get it. It dropped for me randomly, and it was awesome to open that chest in WW and see an item worth more than any of the other items on all of my characters combined. That is a pretty fun feeling to have in an MMO. When you make the EXACT SAME ITEM available as an easy reward, that feeling goes away. If the reward ioun stones are made slightly weaker than the found ones (only slightly), then Turbine can have it's cake and eat it too - people get easy access to a cool item, while still feeling awesome when they find the item the old fashioned way.

I WANT everyone to have access to ioun stones - but I also want to keep the inherent value of finding them high. Understand yet?

djl

01-26-2012, 05:36 PM

huh?

your statement rings of "oh god I had to work for months to get this, everyone else should too" and that is a sentiment I will never support

/not signed

This. I imagine people who spent a lot on them will be upset, but that's just the way things go with MMOs. One day an item is highly valuable and the next day it's worth a quarter of what it used to be.

Also, they didn't say how these were weighted. I doubt the scales will be even for every ioun stone so that you have a 1 in 10 shot of a Pale. More likely, pale is something like .02%.

Xenostrata

01-26-2012, 05:37 PM

Assuming the third completion mechanic is unaffected by ransack, and the drop rates are equal. I wouldn't expect either of those to be the case.

Also, I would not be the least bit surprised if reward stones were Bind on Aquire.

Reward lists have never been ransackable, and ioun stones that currently drop on normally BTA lists are unbound (someone recently pulled one off a WW list, and it was unbound).

I DON'T want the drop rates for a PL stone to be excessively low, because I want people to be able to get them reasonably easily. I just think found ones should be more powerful, at least in part to reflect how rare it is to find one.

NytCrawlr

01-26-2012, 05:38 PM

I'm all for killing grind. But giving everyone easy access to an eRoSS isn't killing grind, it's moronic.

Simply subjective, and no one is talking about the epic ring of spell storing. Regardless, I totally disagree that what they are doing with ioun stones will make them so easy to get.

You have a 10% chance of finding the ioun stone you're looking for after 3 completions of the QUEST (not the chain). Most people will be able to just run it on casual as many times as they need, and most people will eb able to solo their way to a PLIS in about a day.

Again, it's random, and a quest you have to run three times to get to even have a chance at a ioun stone, let alone what you want, not considering getting the same one over and over, etc.

Ioun stones are NOT "grind" at the moment.

You're right, they aren't, they are purely luck. Grind only kicks in if you decide to hold level and grind out lower level quests in order to have more of a chance to get them, or raise the plat/items to trade for them.

Never mind the fact that when I talked about removing some of the grind in my previous comment, I wasn't referring to ioun stones.

Some stuff should be left incredibly rare, so that people can feel really lucky when they find it.

I'm glad you were lucky enough to get one, or perhaps even get one that you wanted, good for you, now be a good sport and let some of us unlucky types get a chance to just have ONE, whether it's the one we want or not.

Lifespawn

01-26-2012, 05:40 PM

I'm all for killing grind. But giving everyone easy access to an eRoSS isn't killing grind, it's moronic.

You have a 10% chance of finding the ioun stone you're looking for after 3 completions of the QUEST (not the chain). Most people will be able to just run it on casual as many times as they need, and most people will eb able to solo their way to a PLIS in about a day.

Ioun stones are NOT "grind" at the moment. "Grind" implies that you'll be running the same stuff over and over in the hopes of finding it. If anything, they just got MORE grindy - people will actually start running the same stuff over and over in the hopes of finding it.

Some stuff should be left incredibly rare, so that people can feel really lucky when they find it. So long as the item isn't seen as crucial, it's nice to have a little extra something drop randomly every now and then.

6 years over 50 toons made to above lvl 10 and i have never seen an ion stone

Xenostrata

01-26-2012, 05:41 PM

Simply subjective, and no one is talking about the epic ring of spell storing. Regardless, I totally disagree that what they are doing with ioun stones will make them so easy to get.

Again, it's random, and a quest you have to run three times to get to even have a chance at a ioun stone, let alone what you want, not considering getting the same one over and over, etc.

You're right, they aren't, they are purely luck. Grind only kicks in if you decide to hold level and grind out lower level quests in order to have more of a chance to get them, or raise the plat/items to trade for them.

Never mind the fact that when I talked about removing some of the grind in my previous comment, I wasn't referring to ioun stones.

I'm glad you were lucky enough to get one, or perhaps even get one that you wanted, good for you, now be a good sport and let some of us unlucky types get a chance to just have ONE, whether it's the one we want or not.

So, are you saying you'd rather have

Extremely low chance of pulling a normal PLIS off the reward list (what you are saying)
Even chance of pulling a PLIS, but have it come with 10-15 fewer charges (what I'm saying).

LightBear

01-26-2012, 05:44 PM

On a side note:

I've had my "Oooh" moment.

Just recently I've obtained the highly desired Pale Lavender Ioun Stone.

Now I can also tell you that everytime I show the item someone else kills a kitten.

Ryiah

01-26-2012, 05:47 PM

You have a 10% chance of finding the ioun stone you're looking for after 3 completions of the QUEST (not the chain). Most people will be able to just run it on casual as many times as they need, and most people will eb able to solo their way to a PLIS in about a day.

I think you're making a pretty big assumption by stating that they have a 10% chance of finding the Ioun Stone they're interested in. Just going off what I've observed from trade channels and the auction house, the low value Ioun Stones are also by far the most common.

As an example I'll use the Ring of Spell Storing you're mentioning. I've seen that chest appear roughly as often as I've seen the Firestorm Greaves chest appear. Yet after having farmed both pretty heavily for a couple of years I've managed to pull the Firestorm Greaves three times as often as the Ring of Spell Storing.

Unless the developers say so otherwise, I think you'll find the junkier stones will drop the majority of the time.

mystafyi

01-26-2012, 05:48 PM

you could always hurry up and sell any stones in storage before everyone knows. along with tome pages and +2 tomes. :rolleyes:

NytCrawlr

01-26-2012, 05:49 PM

Reward lists have never been ransackable

You sure about that?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Ransack

http://ddowiki.com/images/thumb/UI_Ransack4.png/250px-UI_Ransack4.png

I have gotten it a few times myself, trust me.

bbqzor

01-26-2012, 05:51 PM

It would not be bad if they were readily available to anyone 18+ who is able to complete the quest. And even if it were, having a few less charges or what not would not make the badness any less bad.

Nor does having the found ones be more powerful reflect on anything. You plainly said you did nothing to earn it... why should characters in an MMO be rewarded with more power at random, how is that fair to anyone.

If you enjoy looting rare items, thats great. Everyone does, its part of why loot is fun in an MMO. But thats no excuse to have random loot be better than static loot. The fun will still be there when you find one elsewhere, as it will always be much better than whatever else waterworks was offering. And, as mentioned before, I would not be surprised if the reward list ones bind, meaning the prestige of a looted one will still remain.

Xenostrata

01-26-2012, 05:51 PM

I think you're making a pretty big assumption by stating that they have a 10% chance of finding the Ioun Stone they're interested in. Just going off what I've observed from trade channels and the auction house, the low value Ioun Stones are also by far the most common.

As an example I'll use the Ring of Spell Storing you're mentioning. I've seen that chest appear roughly as often as I've seen the Firestorm Greaves chest appear. Yet after having farmed both pretty heavily for a couple of years I've managed to pull the Firestorm Greaves three times as often as the Ring of Spell Storing.

Unless the developers say so otherwise, I think you'll find the junkier stones will drop the majority of the time.

My point stands. Even if they unbalance the chances of getting the more powerful stones, I'd rather have an even (good) chance of pulling a slightly weaker PLIS than a seriously ****** chance of pulling a normal one.

I can't help but think most of the people yelling about how elitist I am will agree that this is a good idea, if they took the time to look at it. If the main issue is availability, then why would you prefer to have the stone remain incredibly rare and hard to get rather than slightly less powerful but more easily found?

Xenostrata

01-26-2012, 05:53 PM

You sure about that?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Ransack

http://ddowiki.com/images/thumb/UI_Ransack4.png/250px-UI_Ransack4.png

I have gotten it a few times myself, trust me.

I stand corrected.

However, how many times does it take to ransack a quest? And how long does it take for a ransack to reset? Because I've completed a few quests (mainly VON3) more than 9 times in one week, and I've never seen that message.

NytCrawlr

01-26-2012, 05:54 PM

So, are you saying you'd rather have

Extremely low chance of pulling a normal PLIS off the reward list (what you are saying

Yes. No need to speed a little extra dev time creating a duplicate item, that is slightly less powerful, with a higher drop rate just to appease those that want to complain that they aren't cool anymore just because they rolled lucky on the dice one day.

LightBear

01-26-2012, 05:55 PM

And to make it even clearer why this is a good thing.

You are going to need the PLIS on epic levels, probably even more then one.

Now let that sink in for a second and read it again.

You are going to need the PLIS on epic levels, probably even more then one.

Red it twice? No PLIS means no completion of the new to come epic quests.

Xenostrata

01-26-2012, 05:55 PM

Yes. No need to speed a little extra dev time creating a duplicate item, that is slightly less powerful, with a higher drop rate just to appease those that want to complain that they aren't cool anymore just because they rolled lucky on the dice one day.

Are you disagreeing with me because you don't want to "spend a little extra dev time," because you don't want the stone to be easily found, or because you want to disagree with me?

bbqzor

01-26-2012, 05:58 PM

I can't help but think most of the people yelling about how elitist I am will agree that this is a good idea, if they took the time to look at it. If the main issue is availability, then why would you prefer to have the stone remain incredibly rare and hard to get rather than slightly less powerful but more easily found?

Because your two options are not the choice at hand. The choice is having it simply be more available. Hence, we're not agreeing that its a good idea.

Its not about preferring it to stay rare and hard to get, the two options you list are not the only ones. Just leaving it the way the patch notes read is an option, and one that people generally find appealing judging from this thread.

Redicular

01-26-2012, 05:58 PM

You sure about that?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Ransack

http://ddowiki.com/images/thumb/UI_Ransack4.png/250px-UI_Ransack4.png

I have gotten it a few times myself, trust me.

from farming sustaining symbiot i can agree, reward lists ARE ransackable. now how that plays out with named item style rewards I don't know, because while that has been theoretically possible forever, the time factor made it unfeasible(even 2 threnals in a day, using the trick to avoid re-doing coyle, drove me half batty while going for fernian wraps)

Gratch

01-26-2012, 05:59 PM

Eh... there's people who sack Irestone hard even now as a farm for the miniscule chance of an L2 ioun drop. So it doesn't reduce farming. It just moves it to a more certain location and at high level and with a much higher reward chance.

What if they made the new reward ones BTA iouns. Would that keep a bonus perk for the constant stream of tells in the harbor asking for anyone who's pulled an ioun stone to continue?

I'm happy with this change so far. Plus maybe more people will run Dreaming Dark instead of just one run on hard followed by 40 elite runs to the first optional chest.

NytCrawlr

01-26-2012, 06:01 PM

However, how many times does it take to ransack a quest? And how long does it take for a ransack to reset? Because I've completed a few quests (mainly VON3) more than 9 times in one week, and I've never seen that message.

It's suppose to work just like the chest ransack mechanic.

Farming for the rings in the Madness 2 chain and some of the end rewards for the Syndicate chain have both given me these messages to date. I don't farm a whole lot of anything else on that scale as for as completing quests so there may be exceptions.

Vormaerin

01-26-2012, 06:03 PM

M
I can't help but think most of the people yelling about how elitist I am will agree that this is a good idea, if they took the time to look at it. If the main issue is availability, then why would you prefer to have the stone remain incredibly rare and hard to get rather than slightly less powerful but more easily found?

Actually, I have thought about it and I can't see how its a good idea. Your main issue seems to be the idea that I'll be less thrilled with my IS from Sykros' Jewel now that I know I could just grind Dreaming Dark for it. I don't agree.

NytCrawlr

01-26-2012, 06:03 PM

(even 2 threnals in a day, using the trick to avoid re-doing coyle, drove me half batty while going for fernian wraps)

You poor soul....and I also hate you for reminding me that I need to farm those. :(

NytCrawlr

01-26-2012, 06:06 PM

Are you disagreeing with me because you don't want to "spend a little extra dev time," because you don't want the stone to be easily found, or because you want to disagree with me?

I just find it pointless in general, and what they plan to do is fine.

Xenostrata

01-26-2012, 06:12 PM

Actually, I have thought about it and I can't see how its a good idea. Your main issue seems to be the idea that I'll be less thrilled with my IS from Sykros' Jewel now that I know I could just grind Dreaming Dark for it. I don't agree.

My main issue is that there appears to be three main options.

1. Even chance of dropping a full-powered any ioun stone. Maybe not the case. I might not speak for everyone, but I think the "ZOMG" feeling you get when you pull an extremely rare item will go away when the item can be easily found elsewhere.
2. Non-even chance of dropping the stronger ioun stones. Maybe not the case. I don't like this idea because it doesn't really change anything; the PLIS and VPIS will remain incredibly rare and hard to get, which renders the change mostly redundant since the other ioun stones are pretty much literally useless (low ML +6 stat items are nice, but are now easily available via crafting - same effect, just two ML higher, and they stay BTA instead of being stuck on the one character).
3. Even chance of dropping all ioun stones, but the stones are slightly less powerful. Keeps the "ZOMG" feeling while still letting people get easy access to the stones.

Wraith_Sarevok

01-26-2012, 06:14 PM

Best change eva!!!

Seriously, almost nobody has these stones. They're almost impossible to find and a couple of them are ungodly useful (Pale Lavender, I'm looking at you...). Oh let's say 20 people on the server's forums have them. They're probably hardcore gold farmers with no life outside of the game. That's almost nothing compared to the general population.

Rating on this change: 10/10

Snowborne

01-26-2012, 06:20 PM

I recently pulled one of the elusive Pale Lavender Ioun Stones. Unfortunately, as a Pale Master, it isn't all that useful except in certain circumstances. Each tick of the death aura drains 4 charges from the stone.

Hafeal

01-26-2012, 06:34 PM

I think they are likely doing this in an attempt to pump the sales of this pack in the DDO Store. I think it will work and I like the change.

Infant

01-26-2012, 08:10 PM

/signed so much to OP.

And I dont even have a PLIS

J1NG

01-26-2012, 08:20 PM

I'm personally happy that there is an easier way to try and obtain these TR (and occasionally useful Elite/Epic run temporary boost) items.

I'm sure many more would be more agreeable to the OP idea of multiple types of Ioun Stone's... ASSUMING we've NOT had the usual Turbine level of competence regarding making changes to existing items and then breaking them all to heck and back.

But I don't really need to say more on that front now do I? :p

J1NG

Tinco

01-26-2012, 08:23 PM

Positive: Dreaming Dark will be run more often.
Negative: It will still be blitzed on casual.
Don't care for: Loot lobbyists.

Solution: Let the stones drop from the end chest with a droprate depending on the difficulty so that there's finally a freakin' reason to run this great quest on harder difficulties.

Dark-Star

01-26-2012, 08:25 PM

So NOT signed.

They give us a way to access these stones besides farming irestone Elite at level and people complain about it??

Great thing about freedom of choice, no need to run this if you don't want to, but don't ruin a good thing for those of us that do.

knightgf

01-26-2012, 09:28 PM

If you get Ioun Stones as a reward from doing a chain three times, it should always be bound, no matter what. Should it be weaker? Meh, probably not, because there's still a random chance you won't get the stone your seeking. But definately bound to account, as at least if you 'find' one, it still has valve, abit slightly lower than today. The bound ones could also require more ingrediants to 'unsuppress', but thats up for debate, I could care less if it does or not.

dredre9987

01-26-2012, 09:42 PM

There are 2 highly useful ioun stones. These would be BAD to have readily available to the public.

And why per se is that?

djl

01-26-2012, 09:44 PM

And why per se is that?

Because people who have one won't be able to flex their egos as much? :D

xveganrox

01-26-2012, 10:12 PM

/signed

Although I think making the quest reward Ioun Stones BTC would be a very nice compromise.

slimkj

01-27-2012, 04:36 AM

Being someone who's never pulled an Ioun Stone in six years, nahhhhhh! Sucks if someone paid fifty squillion plat for one, aye, but I don't care la la laaaaa la laaaaa!

sirgog

01-27-2012, 04:41 AM

bartosy

01-27-2012, 04:55 AM

not signed either..

Bar brawls will be lots of fun when everyone got a pale lav ioun stone :).

huzaah !

assimilateur

01-27-2012, 05:01 AM

Low ML +6 stat items are nice, but those can be easily crafted now.

The required crafting level for a bound +6 stat shard is 100, for an unbound one it is 150. Using the word "easily" in this context has to be a joke.

Not to mention that the lowest ML you'd get for such an item is 9.

They give us a way to access these stones besides farming irestone Elite at level and people complain about it??

While I agree with the gist of your post, I'm not getting that part.
1. Wouldn't hard be the best difficulty level for "farming" ioun stones, since the items are ML:5 and the quest is level 5 on hard?
2. What does being at level have to do with it? I've been told that what items you pull is not influenced by character level at all.

nivarch

01-27-2012, 05:08 AM

Pale lavender are very useful for stuff like eLoB, and we can expect they'll be in even more content. Making them somehow easier to get is a very good move.

Silverleafeon

01-27-2012, 05:13 AM

/not signed

Thank you Devs, for making this change.

Bacab

01-27-2012, 05:25 AM

Oki let me give you a similar example OP.

I think Cannith Crafting should be taken out of the game because I got lucky and Pulled an Anarchic Burst Falchion of Greater COnstruct Bane...people crafting it didn't "earn" it!?

I think Green Steel should be removed because I found my Metalline of PG (insert weaon here)!?

Lets all just call a Spade a Spade. OP you just want your rare item to stay rare so your Ego does not get hurt...

Question for you, how many times do you link your Ioun stone in party/guild/public chat? If it has happened more than 3 times...you are just showing it off. Before you say I am wrong...remember you are the one who came to the forums and complained about this.

Turbine is trying to make items more available for everyone. That is a GOOD thing.

Synopsis...

Old Way: Ioun stone used to be "earned" by blind luck.

New Way: Ioun stone is "earned" by targeting higher level content.

morticianjohn

01-27-2012, 05:26 AM

Not signed.

The best rewards in the game should come from running difficult high level content, not Dr Rushmore on CR 5.

Dreaming Dark isn't overly tough, but it's not the dull joke that level 5 quests are.

I think the point of the OP is that currently while people theorize that ioun stones have a higher drop rate in certain low level quests they aren't an item meant to be farmed.

There should be some items in this game that you just randomly get that don't drop in a specific chest or a specific level toon. There is a certain excitement about getting an ioun stone that you don't get with ANY OTHER (useful there may be a few random drop items that no one really cares about) ITEM IN THE GAME. The reason is because they can't be farmed. Even the eROSS is FARMED. You know exactly which quest drops the ingredients and which chest drops the base. It may take forever but you farm for that item. Are there any items left in the game where people ask "how do I farm item X?" we tell them.... "you can't" or "don't bother"?

I do not have either of the coveted ioun stones. This isn't about what I have (as people keep accusing the OP of bringing this up because he already has one and this change will ruin his prestige).

I agree that dreaming dark is a fun quest and should be completed more (because I'm sure it gets run plenty) but IMHO this is not the way to make it more attractive.

voxson5

01-27-2012, 05:27 AM

...
Dreaming Dark isn't overly tough....

But its fun on elite w/o dr breakers :D

(what a mission lol)

Bacab

01-27-2012, 05:32 AM

I think the point of the OP is that currently while people theorize that ioun stones have a higher drop rate in certain low level quests they aren't an item meant to be farmed.

There should be some items in this game that you just randomly get that don't drop in a specific chest or a specific level toon. There is a certain excitement about getting an ioun stone that you don't get with ANY OTHER (useful there may be a few random drop items that no one really cares about) ITEM IN THE GAME. The reason is because they can't be farmed. Even the eROSS is FARMED. You know exactly which quest drops the ingredients and which chest drops the base. It may take forever but you farm for that item. Are there any items left in the game where people ask "how do I farm item X?" we tell them.... "you can't" or "don't bother"?

I do not have either of the coveted ioun stones. This isn't about what I have (as people keep accusing the OP of bringing this up because he already has one and this change will ruin his prestige).

I agree that dreaming dark is a fun quest and should be completed more (because I'm sure it gets run plenty) but IMHO this is not the way to make it more attractive.

Bad example...

Lets remove the Torc from the DQ raid. Lets just put it in chest at a 1/100,000,000 chance and only in chest that are in quests that are level 21 or higher (like Elite Amrath!).

Would that make you happy? Or would you get a little ticked that you can't "target" an item?

I would love to know how many chests in this game I have opened...and never pulled a Ioun Stone. Judging from my join date and the OP's join date...I would venture to guess I have opened more chests.

Ioun stones are like winning the lottery. Would you rather the lottery be your only way to make money? Or would you rather be able to use your skills and determination help change/build your future and get a good job? Yes I am applying RL circumstances with a video game.

Bacab

01-27-2012, 05:36 AM

This is so similar to the thread when guilds first came out.

Do a search for "Korthos Army". It is about rewarding people for running "difficult" content rather than rewarding super easy content.

LightBear

01-27-2012, 05:42 AM

If there is a change made to the ioun stones it should be that the randomly generated ioun stone should remain unbound, even after unsuppressing it's power.

The ones that drop from the quest arc completion are bound to account before unsuppressing it's power and I hope they stay bound to account after unsuppressing it's power.

Aurora1979

01-27-2012, 05:48 AM

I like this change.

I have 2 Ioun stones atm, and sold 2 others in my time. I still think it will be much better having a specific place to look for them, rather then a random crapshoot.

Blackmoors

01-27-2012, 05:52 AM

So, your point is that You think is fair and logical to have one of the rarest and more useful items in the game continue to drop on low/middle level content only and with a weird random drop mechanics...? And your argument is that changing that will unbalance the game because this is the one the "holy grail" items...? I dont get it, your saying the item should remain rare because you actually think as it his now (having a end game item available ONLY in low level quests) makes sense...? Please explain why, having in mind your holy grail item doesn't make much sense, specially when the item will still be very difficult to acquire, requiring grind...

morticianjohn

01-27-2012, 06:03 AM

Bad example...

Lets remove the Torc from the DQ raid. Lets just put it in chest at a 1/100,000,000 chance and only in chest that are in quests that are level 21 or higher (like Elite Amrath!).

Would that make you happy? Or would you get a little ticked that you can't "target" an item?

I would love to know how many chests in this game I have opened...and never pulled a Ioun Stone. Judging from my join date and the OP's join date...I would venture to guess I have opened more chests.

Ioun stones are like winning the lottery. Would you rather the lottery be your only way to make money? Or would you rather be able to use your skills and determination help change/build your future and get a good job? Yes I am applying RL circumstances with a video game.

There are some items within the game that you can go farm. Until now Ioun stones are not those items. They were unique in that way.

So my question to you is...... Should there be LOTTERY items in this game that are rare and useful items that you don't farm but just randomly pop up for you at an extremely rare occurance?

I really enjoy this kind of item. When you see one there is true excitement like you weren't even looking for it but it just happened upon you. This is different than when I got my base ring of spell storing and I farmed the chest 50 times and the feeling was more of a "finally, I got a job after filling out tons of applications and going to interviews" type of excitement rather than that random "I just found a 20 dollar bill in my front yard".

Don't get me wrong I enjoy both types of excitement. I just think that ioun stones were the last (nearly) random drop. If anything I think they should have made it more random. An equal chance in any quest within the game.

Bacab

01-27-2012, 06:07 AM

NaturalHazard

01-27-2012, 06:18 AM

Yeah ioun stones are a grind, its a grind for those people I see spamming the harbour trade offering 20k plat for some of the most valuable and rare items in the game. Myddo them and see that they are wearing redscale and decked out in epic gear. But apparently thats how they make a buik of their resources spam harbour trade to find some sucker fresh from korthos who has made prob the most valuable pull they will ever make playing DDO and rip em off to resell it to 100000% the value they paid for it.

Tsuarok

01-27-2012, 06:23 AM

I can't really get behind the idea. I don't think anything in the game should be attainable only through dumb luck.

I do sort of get that feeling you're talking about, but what about the soul-crushing feeling of knowing you are completely powerless to improve your chances of getting an item? I don't think that 10 people should have this great feeling while 30k people never get to experience it.

zeonardo

01-27-2012, 06:30 AM

/signed

As much as I wish I had a set of unsupp Ioun stones, I think having them dropping like this is a "little too much"!

I'd suggest only widen their chest-level drop. They drop on lower level quests, and a new player or a less experienced one when they first come accross one of those, they will will just vendor trash it because they don't know how much they are worth. Later on, they will wish to die. Painfuly. (My first Pale Lavender. Used then dust.)

I think they should drop only on the IQ and MS quests, but since they already drop everywhere, they should just drop on any chest-level on any quest, in a lower rate. Let's say 1% chance on any chest in the game and 3% on IQ-MS arcs.

Aurora1979

01-27-2012, 06:39 AM

morticianjohn

01-27-2012, 06:43 AM

Sunblades and Dwarven Throwers were like this.

I can say with confidence, that I am glad I can farm Garomol for a Sunblade or Dwarven Thrower now.

I get what you are saying about rare items.

Unbound Ioun Stones will still be rare. The OP is just mad because he can't brag about having one anymore (since they will be common).

If *YOU* like the whole "suprise" thing...don't farm yours from the Dreaming Dark.

Me? I will be trying to farm one up for a TRed toon as soon as this goes live.

This is an example of "My way is the only way to play" attitude. I call this "Live and let live".

I want a pale lavender ioun stone and you better believe should this change go live I will finish dreaming dark more times in a week than I've done since I started playing DDO. That is not the point. It is really nice to know there are some items that you either get or you don't get totally random and you don't have to worry about not having one. No one will fault you for it.

For example something I hear from time to time is people berate others because they don't have good enough gear. If a newly capped lvl 20 joins a master artificer raid and hasn't gotten a minos because maybe he doesn't have the pack, or he never made it out to the orchard (first lives do go very fast) he might hear about it from the raid leader. Maybe a gentle reminder to upgrade his/her gear, maybe something more harsh. Pale lavender ioun stone is now in that category. It is not just a nice thing to have anymore now it will be "get one or get left out" for some things.

Someone mentioned in this thread that maybe it becomes a pivitol piece moving forward into epic content. Maybe completions will depend on one or more people having MULTIPLE pale lavender ioun stones. I don't know. I do hope that ioun stones will be replaced with a new lottery item. I think these items are exciting for new players and old and much of that excitement is lost as it turns into another item you can grind out in the list of easy to farm items that every toon should have.

Just look at how the fabricator's set has turned out. It is AWESOME but now it is expected that melee's have that or the equivalent. I think before it came out there was a lot of variety in melee gear sets but now I see fabricator's set for all but the most highly geared (or poorly geared) melee's out there.

Sarisa

01-27-2012, 07:30 AM

I'd rather run DD, than hundreds of runs of hard Irestone or level 5 Rushmore. It's a single stone from every third list, it's not like it's going to be that much more common.

Galeria

01-27-2012, 07:31 AM

(My first Pale Lavender. Used then dust.)

LOL, I did this too. I had no idea it was a consumable unless unsupressed.

Spiffyspiffy

01-27-2012, 08:19 AM

But, you've taken a "holy grail" item and turned into just another grind.

No, it was a grind. A open ended grind that only ended with a random good luck. You will never, ever, find an stone once you get out of it's very small level range. Meaning, you either had to grind for it as a high level, or pay through the nose for it to some lucky guy who never has - and never will - get out of the harbor.

Now it's an afternoon. I will always vote for "an afternoon" over grinds that can take weeks if not months.

morticianjohn

01-27-2012, 08:28 AM

I'd rather run DD, than hundreds of runs of hard Irestone or level 5 Rushmore. It's a single stone from every third list, it's not like it's going to be that much more common.

3 DD = 1 ioun stone
100 irestone inlet = <1 ioun stone (I'm pretty sure it's significantly more common especially since very few if any actually farmed irestone since there was not much sucess in it. However, many people will farm DD)

I think if they just made it a random drop in any chest of any level at an average drop rate of once per stone per day on each server that would have been a more simplistic solution while keeping the lottery feel of the ioun stones high.

Bacab

01-27-2012, 08:34 AM

3 DD = 1 ioun stone
100 irestone inlet = <1 ioun stone (I'm pretty sure it's significantly more common especially since very few if any actually farmed irestone since there was not much sucess in it. However, many people will farm DD)

I think if they just made it a random drop in any chest of any level at an average drop rate of once per stone per day on each server that would have been a more simplistic solution while keeping the lottery feel of the ioun stones high.

Other than to "feel elite"...

Why do you care what/who/when people have Ioun Stones?

I have Torcs on all 3 of my "serious" toons. Does that mean I don't want anyone else having a Torc? Does that mean I want people to get skunked on their 20th? No, because I like everyone having extra SP so we can complete things faster.

I would want guildies/Puggers having the absorb spell ones (so we can complete stuff faster/safer). I want guildies /Puggers having any Ioun Stone that indirectly helps me.

Syllph

01-27-2012, 08:38 AM

But, you've taken a "holy grail" item and turned into just another grind. Items like ioun stones are incredibly useful, highly powerful, but also not at ALL necessary to any character build

So I have to disagree. It is a simple grind now too. I went into Water works part I and... grind grind grind grind and found it after a few days.

I honestly don't see much difference.

Sarisa

01-27-2012, 09:00 AM

Other than to "feel elite"...

That's the general reasoning for most people who I see oppose these changes. I honestly don't care about their ego.

I supported the desert raid scroll change, even though I bought a Torc scroll 2 hours before sirgog announced it on the forum, and already had two other desert raid items made. I do not regret my purchase, and do not care that more people have Epic Chaosblades and Epic Torcs than there used to. I support any other grind reduction mechanics as well.

Having people in groups better equipped is a GOOD thing overall, and if one person who is flaunting their having "rare" and "expensive" items gets upset and quits because others are able to more easily get it, then that's also better for the game.

morticianjohn

01-27-2012, 09:04 AM

Other than to "feel elite"...

Why do you care what/who/when people have Ioun Stones?

I have Torcs on all 3 of my "serious" toons. Does that mean I don't want anyone else having a Torc? Does that mean I want people to get skunked on their 20th? No, because I like everyone having extra SP so we can complete things faster.

I would want guildies/Puggers having the absorb spell ones (so we can complete stuff faster/safer). I want guildies /Puggers having any Ioun Stone that indirectly helps me.

Maybe it's all in my head but the way I see it the ioun stones were never like a torc. A torc was found in one quest. You ran the quest whenever you could and got a 20th, 40th, 60th end reward list (if you didn't happen loot it). With the ioun stones there was no telling where they would drop. Some said WW, others said irestone. Some farmed these chests to no avail. Others like syllph seem to think that farming these could net you the ioun stone you craved (because it worked for him). I think that while most people are actively trying to get a torc by repeating the same quest over and over when (most) people want an ioun stone they don't do this knowing the futility (or at least that the sucess rate is much much lower than farming for raid gear or most epic items).

I think there is something wonderful and special about an item that you don't seek after but just falls in your lap. I don't have a pale lavender ioun stone as I've said but under the old system it would have been an amazing find should I ever see one. Under the new system I won't feel the same kind of WOW AM I REALLY LOOTING THIS! kind of feeling when I get one. There is a certainty that I know I'll get one and that takes a lot of the fun out of it for me. To me ioun stones were some of the most fun and interesting items in the game and they've turned them into another boring grind.

Hokiewa

01-27-2012, 09:09 AM

I think there is something wonderful and special about an item that you don't seek after but just falls in your lap. I don't have a pale lavender ioun stone as I've said but under the old system it would have been an amazing find should I ever see one. Under the new system I won't feel the same kind of WOW AM I REALLY LOOTING THIS! kind of feeling when I get one. There is a certainty that I know I'll get one and that takes a lot of the fun out of it for me. To me ioun stones were some of the most fun and interesting items in the game and they've turned them into another boring grind.

Not everybody has that "special" feeling. It's only a grind if you make it one. There is no indication that stones won't drop elsewhere. So you can still have that "special" feeling if you loot one in WW or IL or Rushmore or wherever.

morticianjohn

01-27-2012, 09:15 AM

Not everybody has that "special" feeling. It's only a grind if you make it one. There is no indication that stones won't drop elsewhere. So you can still have that "special" feeling if you loot one in WW or IL or Rushmore or wherever.

now that I know where and how to get one, I'm going to go get it. So one thing that I wasn't grinding for I now will be.

Convieniently enough since I'm already running for eardweller every couple of days I can just complete each time I do an eardweller run so it's only adding half of a quest to the grind. Although now that I think about it casual is the way to grind ioun stones and elite is eardweller. They don't mix very well so it just looks like double the grind in the same quest :(

brian14

01-27-2012, 09:43 AM

/signed

I *like* that DDO has some items so incredibly rare "grinding" for them is pointless, and actually finding one is an OMG! moment. (And not terribly overpowered at that.)

MrkGrismer

01-27-2012, 09:49 AM

I got a Bottle of Air on one of my characters in Water Works. It was kind of neat at the time, but it is not a huge deal because what it does can be gotten on other items (although the BoA has no ML). For rare items I like that. Ion Stones are useful and now that they show on characters 'kind of neat', they shouldn't be random super-rare. I prefer the idea of rare random items that don't have significant game-play effects but maybe cool different 'looks' or special 'non-standard slotting' (like Bloodstone™), or ML. But when a super-rare item has a special ability that makes it super desirable it becomes a factor in separating the 'haves' from the 'have nots' and I am not really crazy about that idea.

AylinIsAwesome

01-27-2012, 10:12 AM

Reward lists have never been ransackable

That's not true.

On my first character, before I had purchased any content and the leveling sigils were still required for non-VIPs, I ran Durk's over 30 times trying to get my sigil. The reward list eventually offered me nothing, with the message that I had done the quest too many times to get a reward.

Tarragon12

01-27-2012, 11:28 AM

Bacab

01-27-2012, 11:50 AM

I do not want PLIS (or any other ious stones) available to casual players who can barely survive casual Dreaming Dark. It will make Abbot even more trivial and further destroy any sense of achievement.

Sooooo being able to PWN Water Works a hundred times has something to do with being ready for the Abbot...

GOTYA! You made me totally change my mind.

Carpone

01-27-2012, 11:57 AM

But, you've taken a "holy grail" item and turned into just another grind. [...] I think it would be best if dropped ioun stones retain their current properties (maybe even get a buff, considering how badly some of them suck), and the ones pulled from the end reward list be less powerful.

Loot is meant to be acquired. Not signed.

Sarisa

01-27-2012, 12:08 PM

Or rip off new players, which is how a substantial portion of PLIS's and VPIS's get "bought".

NytCrawlr

01-27-2012, 01:07 PM

So my question to you is...... Should there be LOTTERY items in this game that are rare and useful items that you don't farm but just randomly pop up for you at an extremely rare occurance?

After thinking about it, I am going to have to say no. At least I prefer to be able to farm for it, even if there is a 1/1,000,000 of getting it by farming for it, instead of the random crapshoot whenever you level a new or TR character.

SirShen

01-27-2012, 01:38 PM

I just ran Dreaming Dark 3 times and i got NO stone. SO they do not drop ever 3 runs like most of you are thinking.

NytCrawlr

01-27-2012, 01:42 PM

I just ran Dreaming Dark 3 times and i got NO stone. SO they do not drop ever 3 runs like most of you are thinking.

Reading the release notes again, I think that was the intent, so you might want to bug report that.

Vesuvium

01-27-2012, 04:23 PM

NytCrawlr

01-27-2012, 04:30 PM

Megahurtz

01-27-2012, 04:33 PM

Loot is meant to be acquired. Not signed.

Acquired, yes. Handed to you on a plate, no.

kzeast

01-27-2012, 04:40 PM

umeannothing

01-27-2012, 04:42 PM

First, let me say that I like the idea of making ioun stones more available. They are a useful item, and while I enjoy having one PLIS on my caster, I'd love to have one on each of my characters.

But, you've taken a "holy grail" item and turned into just another grind. Items like ioun stones are incredibly useful, highly powerful, but also not at ALL necessary to any character build - "icing on the cake," if you will. Now that they will be easily found, the only real "holy grail" item left will be the eRoSS. I think having some items be incredibly rare is good for a game, because it gives people that "Holy ****ing ****!" feeling when they find one.

I think it would be best if dropped ioun stones retain their current properties (maybe even get a buff, considering how badly some of them suck), and the ones pulled from the end reward list be less powerful. Not significantly weaker, but noticeable enough that found ioun stones are highly valued. Maybe even consider making found ioun stones BTA, even after upgraded, and making reward ioun stones BTC immediately. PLIS could have reduced charges, VPIS could have a lower level of spell pin (minor VIII?), the ability ones could be upgraded to +1 exc ability instead of skill when found and left at +1 skill when dropped as a reward. I'll admit I have no ****ing clue what to do with the spot/listen one to make it worth it, as a drop OR reward.

Just a thought.

I understand your concerns here, and normally I would be on the fence with the issue.

But what I think people are overlooking lately is the fact there is an expansion coming.

This, for MOST MMO's would also mean gear that is better than anything currently in the game.

And for most MMO's, the generalization is about making OLD gear slightly easier to obtain so that when players advance into the next level of new content (Xpac if you will) they are not going into the content without the chance of being properly geared to at least survive/participate in the content.

I think making gear easier for players to gt at this moment in time is a GOOD thing. It means more players being able to feel ready for the next phase in the journey of their characters.

Nothing would be worse than buying the xpac, and learning that you have to go backwards to Eberron to gather up the gear to be viable in the new content.

Now, I surely hope that with the xpac will come new gear. And I hope the gear is NOT something that is easily obtained. If this same gear pass followed into the expansion, then yes, I agree...........

DOOOOooOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOooooMMMMMMmmmmmmmmM!

~Cavalier9999

01-27-2012, 04:45 PM

Ganolyn

01-27-2012, 04:46 PM

Perhaps you could consider changing the drop rates for PLIS and VPIS? I'm thinking 2% or 3%. Still grindable but maintaining *some* of their rareness.

It is a high level P2P quest series so I don't advocate this. The only thing I could go for would be to make all Ioun Stones BTC (retroactively applied to all existing stones) on aquire if people really think this cheapens them. Then every toon has to farm them for themselves.

Vengeance777

01-27-2012, 04:49 PM

muffinlad

01-27-2012, 04:52 PM

Will take a fair amount of grinding to get the one you want. Seems appropriate.

Please do not make pale lav or vib purple any more rare that that. It is more than sufficient.

Agree.

Further, we need to get people to DO these quest lines...and this is a nice carrot.

muffinstick

TheDearLeader

01-27-2012, 04:57 PM

Agree.

Further, we need to get people to DO these quest lines...and this is a nice carrot.

muffinstick

Exactly. DD is actually a pretty cool quest, but I only see people :

Run on Elite, for side chest, until they get their Eardweller (and don't complete). Then never run it again.
Run on Casual, for Upgrading an item. Then never run it again.
Run on Elite, complete, because they're one of those "I NEED ALL FAVOR!" people. Then never run it again.

The common theme, of course, is it only gets run once by most people, maybe twice if they upgrade a second item.

Giving us something to look forward to via multiple runs is a positive thing.

SirShen

01-27-2012, 05:00 PM

TheDearLeader

01-27-2012, 05:06 PM

Strange i didnt get 1?

Did you do it three times? Just like.. checking.

Auran82

01-27-2012, 05:09 PM

I suspect the reason they have put these into the loot tables like this probably has something to do with how gamebreaking the PLIS *can* be. If they were left as rare as they are now, it possibly limits their design options as you could have content which is difficult without it, but trivial with it (by allowing you to ignore a particular spell which may have formed a vital part of the deisgn)

badbob117

01-27-2012, 05:12 PM

I love this change. Finally can get a few ioune stones for TR'ing!

And hopefully it stops Argo's premiere chat spammer from scamming folks in harbor! Plus they needed to get people to start running dreaming dark somehow. This is a great way to make the pack more popular.

Will be a nice welcomed change. Sucks for all the folks who coughed up millions for them but that's the breaks.

Bring on the stones!

sirgog

01-27-2012, 05:14 PM

In the interest of getting more precise feedback from you all:

- The 3rd completion end reward table for Dreaming Dark has a 100% chance of a single random Ioun stone showing up.
- Each one has a 10% chance.

So the odds of getting a specific Ioun stone is 10%.

Perfect.

The present system encourages capped toons to run Irestone or CR 5 Rushmore to get the big two Ioun Stones despite them being loot really oriented to level-capped characters. Or they would stand in the Harbor and spam trade, looking for gullible lowbies that luck out and pull one to rip off.

Now, level 20 content is THE BEST place to get them.

30 runs on average to get a PLIS (same for VPIS) is still a lot, so these will still be valuable.

One side effect of this change, however, is that 'other' Ioun stones will absolutely plummet in value. I don't mind, but we will see an enormous number of extra +6 stat stones on the market, and likewise the trapskills and +5 AC ones.

Rumbaar

01-27-2012, 05:20 PM

I think the only people that don't like this change are the farmers that sell Pale Lavendar Iuon stones for millions of plat and/or items.

You can grind farm it now, with those with the patience and dedication able to get some nice reward out of it.

/not signed

Aelonwy

01-27-2012, 05:33 PM

In the interest of getting more precise feedback from you all:

- The 3rd completion end reward table for Dreaming Dark has a 100% chance of a single random Ioun stone showing up.
- Each one has a 10% chance.

So the odds of getting a specific Ioun stone is 10%.

Sounds perfectly fine to me. If for some reason ppl insist the PLIS and VPIS must be made more rare, please no less than a 5% drop rate on either.

One side effect of this change, however, is that 'other' Ioun stones will absolutely plummet in value. I don't mind, but we will see an enormous number of extra +6 stat stones on the market, and likewise the trapskills and +5 AC ones.

Makes no nevermind to me. They are already considered by many a plat-trap for newer players so this change effectively decreases both avenues by which newer players (or merely the uninformed) are taken advantage of... that is there should be less ppl trying to purchase the most desirable stones off of newbies with no notion of their value, and less newbies spending more plat then they can easily spare on stones with less than stellar worth in the game.

GotSomeQuestions

01-27-2012, 06:03 PM

In the interest of getting more precise feedback from you all:

- The 3rd completion end reward table for Dreaming Dark has a 100% chance of a single random Ioun stone showing up.
- Each one has a 10% chance.

So the odds of getting a specific Ioun stone is 10%.
Very reasonable numbers, sounds good to me.

I'm not sure why people are saying 30 runs, though--if you're hunting a Pale Lavender, you have about a 50% chance to see at least one after about 21 runs (7 pulls), and about a 75% chance after 39 runs (13 pulls). Some people will certainly luck out, but others will have to run this quest quite a few times to get that stone.

If you'd be happy with Pale Lav or Vib Purp, you need 12 runs (4 pulls) to break the 50% mark, and about 18 (6 pulls) to hit a 75% chance at a "desirable" ioun.

The elite players can still demonstrate their superiority by grinding out five or six of the Pale Lavs and unsuppressing them.

Erikanudan

01-27-2012, 06:47 PM

VPIS bought off pawn broker for 459pp ... (yes, the suppressed one). (pre-cannith crafting).
PLIS pulled in Catacombs during a +1 world loot event while farming essences. (also the suppressed version).

Hate to see the 'Miracles CAN happen!' slogan thrown to the wayside.

Then again, who's to say Turbine isn't adding NEW iouns to game? DD completions could provide source of new higher ML iouns with more powers ... but given the new drop rate on 3rd completions .... and all the existing iouns, what odds to get one of the new ones (if they exist) to drop?

Ausdoerrt

01-27-2012, 06:53 PM

your statement rings of "oh god I had to work for months to get this, everyone else should too" and that is a sentiment I will never support

/not signed

/thread

Vormaerin

01-27-2012, 07:52 PM

Hate to see the 'Miracles CAN happen!' slogan thrown to the wayside.

Has there been any mention of pulling them from the rest of the loot tables? You can still get a miracle, afaik. You can also run DD multiple times to get them. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Lehmu

01-27-2012, 08:21 PM

Getting ioun stones reliably from DD is a good thing, if only because harbor's /trade has seen enough people scamming newbies from their ioun stones.

Silverleafeon

01-27-2012, 08:36 PM

Nods happily.

FranOhmsford

01-27-2012, 09:04 PM

morticianjohn

01-27-2012, 09:29 PM

Ok everyone - First of all /notsigned to the OP.

They have done this to help sell IQ and Dreaming Dark packs - This is a good thing.

I have looted personally 1 vib purp - Butcher's Path {Secret Chest} and 1 Pale Lav - Cerulean Hills Rare Scorpion - Ebony.
I sold both, well traded the purp for a met of pure good when those were 1mil + on the AH and some plat on top.

From what I can see the only bad thing that's gonna come from this is that first lifers will not be able to make such amounts of plat any more.
What else out there can be sold for anything like the value of these two stones and isn't available in the DDOStore {Hearts don't count}?

Good point about hearts of wood. I guess there are still some lottery items out there. I felt like ioun stones were in this category and I wish they had gone that direction with them (make them availible in more chests than just certain low level chests. Maybe just adding IQ to the list of chests they could drop in.) however, seeing how other people felt about these items (running irestone inlet on a high lvl toon. hard to believe people were doing this but I guess if they were then there was need for a change) I can understand why they've been changed a little better.

I think that the implementation is clean and logical. Every 3rd run has an equal chance of dropping any one of the 10 stones. At least this makes sense vs making 2 stones more rare because they're more valued by the population.

Morlen

01-27-2012, 09:45 PM

I'm just here to say that I've been playing this game for almost 6 years, and I have never looted any form of Ioun Stone... I've survived this long.

Vormaerin

01-27-2012, 10:45 PM

(make them availible in more chests than just certain low level chests. Maybe just adding IQ to the list of chests they could drop in.)

I think you are confused. I know I pulled an Ioun Stone from the end reward of Sykros' Jewel last week, so they don't just drop from certain low level chests.

Stormdum

01-27-2012, 10:52 PM

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/2492/screenshot00257i.jpg

bbqzor

01-27-2012, 11:07 PM

In the interest of getting more precise feedback from you all:

- The 3rd completion end reward table for Dreaming Dark has a 100% chance of a single random Ioun stone showing up.
- Each one has a 10% chance.

So the odds of getting a specific Ioun stone is 10%.

This is a good implementation. If anything, I would like to see more chances for them. This is basically about a 50% chance you get the one you're looking for inside 21 runs (closest to 20 divisible by 3), which is kind of comparable to raid loot.

Bumping a little higher would put them closer to 'quest' loot rates, but to be completely frank this is so much better than how it is now, I hesitate to ask for more in case it comes off badly.

Thanks for finally adding something attractive to both that quest, and for ioun stones in general. It will make many players happy.

Faent

01-27-2012, 11:09 PM

Qhualor

01-27-2012, 11:25 PM

Vormaerin

01-27-2012, 11:32 PM

10% chance for 1 of the ioun stones drop every 3 completions is something i could accept. expect people to grind for them though when it hits live. thats not to be meant negatively, its just that everybody is gonna want that spell absorbtion stone mostly and they will find it better to grind dreaming dark quests for it than grinding waterworks.

Well, I think that is exactly the point... THey are making a variety of changes to make the grind less overall for non raid items. This change means that people are running level appropriate quests when they grind. I'm sure the fact that it adds value to an adventure pack doesn't hurt either.

Pewf

01-28-2012, 07:24 AM

I like this! :D

Carpone

01-28-2012, 08:11 AM

Xenostrata

01-28-2012, 12:05 PM

Man. Leave a thread alone for a couple days and it just explodes.

Oki let me give you a similar example OP.

I think Cannith Crafting should be taken out of the game because I got lucky and Pulled an Anarchic Burst Falchion of Greater COnstruct Bane...people crafting it didn't "earn" it!?

I think Green Steel should be removed because I found my Metalline of PG (insert weaon here)!?

Lets all just call a Spade a Spade. OP you just want your rare item to stay rare so your Ego does not get hurt...

Question for you, how many times do you link your Ioun stone in party/guild/public chat? If it has happened more than 3 times...you are just showing it off. Before you say I am wrong...remember you are the one who came to the forums and complained about this.

Turbine is trying to make items more available for everyone. That is a GOOD thing.

Synopsis...

Old Way: Ioun stone used to be "earned" by blind luck.

New Way: Ioun stone is "earned" by targeting higher level content.

Wow. First off, -1. Please don't try to make this personal.

Secondly, your examples make no sense, and you still haven't addressed any of the points I've made. This has nothing to do with the feeling of having an ioun stone, and everything to do with the feeling of getting one - if you can grind out the same item in a day, then finding it the old fashioned way isn't going to do anything for you. How would you feel if suddenly you could just run DQ1 on normal for a 10% chance of dropping the eRoSs shard?

Just to state what I've said before: I think that people getting easier access to ioun stones is a good thing. Having it easier for the average PUGger I group with to get geared is always a plus. However, that doesn't mean I think that all the rare items in the game should be easily found in about a days worth of grinding at level 20. These new stones will have been achieved in a significantly shorter period of time (or effort, if you bought one), and so should reflect this with a SMALL (I'm not suggesting huge nerf here, people) reduction of power.

This isn't exactly a novelty idea, either. There have been plenty of games that changed the way a certain item can be found, and decided to make any items found before the change obviously distinguishable.

Anyway, given that there does appear to be some dev attention, here's what I suggest.
Minor reduction of the power of reward stones and/or minor buff to found ioun stones (retroactive, ofc). Something on the order of 40 charges instead of 50, nothing too dramatic.
Alter the binding rules. Make reward stones be BTA on acquire, BTC on upgrade, and make found stones unbound on acquire, BTA on equip, and keep them BTA on upgrade. That would give them a nice bonus over the reward ones.
Reduce the chance of finding an ioun stone on the end reward, while giving the end chest a 0%/5%/15%/40% chance of dropping an ioun stone. That at least will add some amount of challenge to grinding these instead of 20+ casual runs.

This isn't about ego or elitism or whatever. While I do generally agree that being able to reliably farm something is better than lottery pulls, I only think that about "necessary" items - ioun stones are pure fluff, and as such keeping that "ZOMG" feeling is a good thing. These changes will not only take away the "ZOMG" feeling, but also turn the stones into yet another thing you are expected to have before you join an endgame party, leaving only the eRoSS as a lottery item.

Thrudh

01-28-2012, 12:32 PM

Perhaps you could consider changing the drop rates for PLIS and VPIS? I'm thinking 2% or 3%. Still grindable but maintaining *some* of their rareness.

Average of 30 runs to get it is still pretty rare.

Xenostrata

01-28-2012, 12:48 PM

Average of 30 runs to get it is still pretty rare.

That's not the average. Average is closer to 21 runs for a specific ioun stone. Once you get used to farming casual, that's 1-2 days of farming (regardless of end reward ransack. You can run it on multiple characters, people).

FranOhmsford

01-28-2012, 01:05 PM

Well, I think that is exactly the point... THey are making a variety of changes to make the grind less overall for non raid items. This change means that people are running level appropriate quests when they grind. I'm sure the fact that it adds value to an adventure pack doesn't hurt either.

From what I remember it's not just 1 pack - Pretty sure you can't even start Dreaming Dark till you've completed Mindsunder.
So that's 2 packs IQ and DD.

This change will get many more people to stump up the cash/favour to buy those packs or go VIP.

Expect the prices of them to go up very soon.

Also having to get through IQ isn't exactly the easiest quest chain in the game is it - Might be a bit better with this change thanks to more people needing it.
Never played Dreaming Dark - Think I only have one character who's completed Mindsunder and he TRd soon after.

Xenostrata

01-28-2012, 01:06 PM

You can do DD without IQ. There aren't any packs that require flagging from other packs, I think.

Most people buy bothe because one of the big draws of DD is upgraded IQ loot.

mudfud

01-28-2012, 01:07 PM

Does ransack still give an ioun stone?

Bacab

01-28-2012, 01:47 PM

Xenostrata, go back and read everything you have posted in this thread. If you really do not think you came across as a someone being petulant...I am not sure you can understand why other people in this thread may have perceived that way.

I am not the only person he feels you just want this nerfed because you got lucky on a pull.

Also go back and read what other people wrote. Most of the people on the "don't make this farmable"; it is because to them Ioun stones are a sense of status for them.

What if I said that Torc's shouldn't drop anymore because CoF and WizKing and OOB and ADQ can be completed on "Casual" now? Heck you can still pull a Ioun stone from WW on casual.

I could buy into the idea that a "Casual" Dreaming Dark should not count towards the "3" needed to get a list.

I am not trying to make this personal. But the overwhelming feeling myself and others got was the people against this new implementation was because they wanted THEIR item to remain exceedingly rare. It had nothing to do with game balance.

and the -1...right back at ya

wonko_the_sane

01-28-2012, 02:37 PM

Ioun stones are some of my very favorite flavor items. I remember reading Cugel's Saga the first time and being totally impressed with Jack Vance and his Dying Earth Stories. The Ioun stones were great. ("Nothing is imminent!")

In these stories, the wizards had multiple Ioun stones in use at once. Their relative power was largely due to the number of Ioun stones they possessed.

If I were to buff the less desired Ioun stones, I would make it so we could equip multiple Ioun stones at once and see them all flying around my head. That would be totally fun and true to the source material.

Can we get that please?

;)

bbqzor

01-28-2012, 02:49 PM

That's not the average. Average is closer to 21 runs for a specific ioun stone. Once you get used to farming casual, that's 1-2 days of farming (regardless of end reward ransack. You can run it on multiple characters, people).

Its 21 runs for around a 50/50 shot, more like 30 to be within a standard deviation. Either way, its generally at least a raids run (20+) worth of time in barring luck, and thats a significant investment. Its a similar amount of time one might take getting a Litany, or an Epic SoS, or any number of other "top end" items, regardless of how its spaced out.

The fact you could do it in one day doesn't really have any bearing... you could do 20 ToDs in a day if not for the timer, but that doesn't mean +4 tomes are any more common. Timer spacing doesn't affect the amount of time in the quest, only the amount of real time that passes between them.

We understand you're saying you think there should be a less powerful one because you want the rare one to be rare to preserve the potential of an "oh wow" moment. What many people are saying is, "oh wow" moments generally should not reward people disproportionally to effort expended.

You seem to keep repeating that you don't understand why people don't want "oh wow" moments, and again here's the answer: We do, to varying degrees, but not revolving around dumb luck and disproportionate rewards. "Oh wow" when you pull the ToD ring you need on the first run is appropriate. "Oh wow" when you get an item useful at level 20 from a level 4 quest totally at random is not appropriate.

Obviously, you feel otherwise, and that's fine. But please don't be so mystified other people feel differently. Expecting rewards to be proportionally related to the effort expended, and to appear in quests thematically related to the items, at levels appropriate to the item, is pretty standard fare for MMO logic. I, among many here, feel that is a better choice, and support the devs original implementation here.

Galeria

01-28-2012, 03:16 PM

Very happy with the change and the 10% chance for any stone to appear in your list. That is the way it ought to be.

slimkj

01-29-2012, 10:14 AM

In the interest of getting more precise feedback from you all:

- The 3rd completion end reward table for Dreaming Dark has a 100% chance of a single random Ioun stone showing up.
- Each one has a 10% chance.

So the odds of getting a specific Ioun stone is 10%.
Perfect. I hope you don't let complaints steer you in another direction. As others have said, grinding L5 chests for these is suck.

Ziindarax

01-29-2012, 10:39 AM

MrkGrismer

01-30-2012, 03:59 PM

I have to say one thing; I don't currently run Dreaming Dark, after this change I am going to start running it.

Maybe just on my light monk tho ;) We'll see :D

Blackmoors

01-31-2012, 04:02 AM

Wow. First off, -1. Please don't try to make this personal. Secondly, your examples make no sense, and you still haven't addressed any of the points I've made (...)

Minor reduction of the power of reward stones and/or minor buff to found ioun stones (retroactive, ofc). Something on the order of 40 charges instead of 50, nothing too dramatic.
Alter the binding rules. Make reward stones be BTA on acquire, BTC on upgrade, and make found stones unbound on acquire, BTA on equip, and keep them BTA on upgrade. That would give them a nice bonus over the reward ones.
Reduce the chance of finding an ioun stone on the end reward, while giving the end chest a 0%/5%/15%/40% chance of dropping an ioun stone. That at least will add some amount of challenge to grinding these instead of 20+ casual runs.

This isn't about ego or elitism or whatever. While I do generally agree that being able to reliably farm something is better than lottery pulls, I only think that about "necessary" items - ioun stones are pure fluff, and as such keeping that "ZOMG" feeling is a good thing. These changes will not only take away the "ZOMG" feeling, but also turn the stones into yet another thing you are expected to have before you join an endgame party, leaving only the eRoSS as a lottery item.

Dude, everyone understood your point, "we" just dont agree with it. The change is good and welcome and as you can see, almost everyone (posting here ofc) agrees with it. As said over and over and over on this thread (which you seem to ignore the argument) it doesn't make sense to have a "premium" end game item drop on low level quests/challenges. Furthermore, that "ZOMG" feeling you keep saying is based on your gaming experience, not all experience that! In fact, most players that loot the stones dont know their value and just trade it for a silly amount to someone taking advantage of their inexperience!

So, you dont like the change but as you can see, not only people agree with it but they really like it since its something that makes sense. Also, you know can replicate your so called "ZOMG" feeling since now you have one more item to try and acquire, meaning another "objective" on your to do list which is always good. Before this change you could (1) try and farm rushmore for one or some other silly low level quest, (2) try and trade one in the forum and pay your soul or (3) just go to the harbor and spam the trade channel so you can scam a new player :cool:

Beetlebluebird

01-31-2012, 04:12 AM

I have an upgraded PLIS on my FVS and I fully support the changes. Ioun stones are a great but sadly so rarely seen part of the game and more people should experience them.

J1NG

01-31-2012, 05:54 AM

Xenostrata,

I haven't gone through the entire thread since the early stages when I posted, so I apologise first hand if I'm covering old ground or indeed missed something important out.

With regards to your most recent points, I would like to address some of them here in this post:

1. "Minor reduction of the power of reward stones and/or minor buff to found ioun stones (retroactive, ofc). Something on the order of 40 charges instead of 50, nothing too dramatic."

What you have proposed (duplicate but weaker item set) has (I feel) a few flaws in the desire for this approach.

A. Executing this requires developer time. With The expansion upcoming, taking time to execute this out would take time away from polishing the Expansion. No thank you. I am sure others would agree that the Expansion is more important than to get some old loot to work as you have described when it requires the same resources: Developer and Time.

B. Turbine have shown that their... capability in making duplicate items is... Not quite efficient or indeed... Perfect. Often there are mistakes involved in the process. And for something as "rare" as you put it as an Ioun Stone, plenty of time should be taken to make sure things won't go wrong. After all, would you be happy with Turbine messing around with a duplicate LESSER Epic Ring of Spell Storing for 50th runs but messes both up at the same time? This from what I can tell once again means Developer Time, none of which is really available at this time. Certainly not enough to what we would call reliable resource and time.

C. I am... Uncertain as to why you would think that +6 Con and +1 exceptional Con Skills, or +15 Spot and Search needs a nerf to a secondary duplicate item. Clearly you are most concerned with the Pale Lavender Ioun Stone and the Vibrant Purple. Which is understandable, but when you look at Ioun Stones as a whole, they do not need further development time to making a lesser version since they are already twink items primarily (since you need to Unsupress them to get the best effects you need to be a TR anyway normally to get and use them in Unsuppressed form).

Now, granted, neither A or B is really a reason NOT to go this approach, but since the typical Turbine approach is to implement and if it doesn't cause an issue later with exploits, it then gets left as is until someone gets bored (Dungeon Alert anyone?). By the time Turbine has time to look at what you're suggesting, it will be past the point of no return. Factor in C, and we begin to see that Ioun Stones isn't the real issue, but merely TWO Ioun Stones out of many.

So on a personal view, what you're asking for is not going to happen because you're asking for too much from Turbine for very little in return.

2. "Alter the binding rules. Make reward stones be BTA on acquire, BTC on upgrade, and make found stones unbound on acquire, BTA on equip, and keep them BTA on upgrade. That would give them a nice bonus over the reward ones."

The ONLY Ioun Stone that I know of that would "benefit" from market saturation prevention would be the Pale Lavender Ioun Stone and the Vibrant Purple Ioun Stone. And this appears to be what you are targeting in your most recent posts. Not the other Ioun Stones.

Duplicating the other Ioun Stone's and making them LESSER appears to be a waste of Developer time. +4/5 Con and instead of +6? The time used appears to be more of a waste than anything else. I am sure others would agree here as well. The Ioun Stones as they are right now are fine even for a Quest Chain complestion rewards.

Personally, there is a VERY simply solution to the Pale Lavender and Vibrant Purple Ioun Stone issue that you are raising: Make them BTA on acquire. There is no need to change them further. Since (if you are unaware), these two Ioun Stones become BTC on unsuppressing anyway.

This way, if you want your "wow" feeling, you can totally ignore doing Dreaming Dark series as well as electing not to pick the Ioun Stone as a reward.

To ask for Development Time from the Expansion for a mere two Ioun Stones out of many seems... well. Misplaced.

3. "Reduce the chance of finding an ioun stone on the end reward, while giving the end chest a 0%/5%/15%/40% chance of dropping an ioun stone. That at least will add some amount of challenge to grinding these instead of 20+ casual runs."

Whilst this is just as simple as making the TWO Ioun Stones really at beef here BTA, since the Reward option is already present, a quick BTA change appears to be the more appropriate change to counter the issues you are expressing.

Also, the grind x3 is not necessarily going to reward you with the Ioun Stone you are having issues with. Just like grinding x20 of DQ is not necessarily going to give you a Torc. 80+ runs and counting here. So if you DO get lucky, well... Lucky you. :)

---

Personally, making the Ioun Stones BTA without making further changes appears to be the best solution. The proposal you have is far too complex and time consuming (ie error prone) considering what we know is coming (Expansion).

I hope my points answer your questions and points as to why I am not a fan of what you have proposed.

J1NG

Jasparion

01-31-2012, 06:19 AM

You completely missed the point. But at least you managed to be righteously indignant about it :rolleyes:

There are 2 highly useful ioun stones. These would be BAD to have readily available to the public.

Yes, it would be horrible if we all had access to really useful items...

Wraith_Sarevok

01-31-2012, 06:56 AM

How would that be BAD at all?

The pale lavender only absorbs spells based on SPELL LEVEL. In other words: a level 9 spell will drain 9 charges. And multi shot spells like Meteor Swarm will drain charges for every single meteor that hits you. It's not guaranteed to last longer than a minute against most caster fights.

And fleshies desperately need something to guard against beholders. The anti magic cone is annoying, but the real killers are the level drain and flesh-to-stone attacks. Too many hits or a bad roll can send you right into the helpless state where you can be easily picked off.

SpoilSpot

01-31-2012, 01:01 PM

That's not the average. Average is closer to 21 runs for a specific ioun stone.

No, the average for successfully getting a specific ioun stone is 30 runs (10 pulls).

You have a ~50% chance of getting your first success in 7 pulls or less, and the other ~50% chance of getting it later. Possibly much later, and that factors into the average, which comes out as exactly 10 pulls (because it's 1/probability of success per run, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_distribution ).

And since the pulls are independent, after failing the first (or first many) pulls, there's still an average of 30 runs ahead of you for your first success. Failing ten pulls in a row doesn't make you any more due for your first success :(

/RS

Ruphus

01-31-2012, 11:11 PM

Not Signed

I am for one very happy to see these become more readily available. I have seen 2 Ioun stones drop since I started playing DDO, one was a PLIS, before they upgraded them with "suppressed" and the +6 Strength one. I pulled the +6 strength one from a supply chest in Kobold Island: Kobold Chaos farming them for festivult coins, and I opened well over 1000 of those chests. Did I feel a "ZOMG!" feeling when I looted it? Nah, was more like "Cool, should fetch a few hundred k plat, can't complain!" Can't even say that about the PLIS, they were near worthless when I looted it, saved it forever and then eventually sold it for 2 million plat. Wasn't even a memorable experience looting it, was still so new to the game it was more like, "oh, neat".

What has given me those "ZOMG!" Moments?

- My first and second Torc pulls (7th DQ on caster for 1st, 10th DQ on caster for 2nd gave it away, not seen another since)
- First festivult, got a +4 Wisdom tome from Jester for about 3500 gold coin turn ins
- I pulled a +3 unbound Strength tome a week ago from cr23 Picture Portals supply chest, was a huge surprise, had almost given up trying to get a +3 tome from here.
- My first and only Eardweller (after 40ish runs)
- My first and only Mysterious Bauble (after 70+ runs)
- Every time I loot a Bloodstone, Firestorm Greaves or Ring of Spell Storing.
- My first valuable Epic Scroll drop (was a chaos blade)
- Every Epic Scroll drop that I can actually use (excluding Sands now since the changes)

That said, there are STILL a ton of "ZOMG!" "Wowzers" "Holy S***!" and "WOO HOO!" items out there that can drop just about anywhere.

- Silver/Cold Iron/Adamantine weapons with Medium or Large Guild slots, especially Khopesh, Handwraps, Dwarven Axes, Scimitars, Greataxes, Falchions etc etc etc.
- Any Hearts of Wood
- Epic Scrolls/seals/shards that you are actually looking/hoping for
- Named items you are actually looking/hoping for