How do you get to 20 without knowing the basic abilities of your class?

[NaturalHazard]

Last night before I was going to log off I saw a lfm up blood stone farming need guide, it was a level 20 cleric. I thought ok I can show him where some of the desert chests are. I join.............. he states that he will be right there he has to repair he was getting his butt handed to him by the mobs out in the desert and hes happy to get a guide and someone to help fight the mobs as hes not a fighter and struggles to take them down.:eek::eek::eek:.

Cool, so I take him in there, I ask him to load implosion, and blade barrier before we go in. He does, we get to the undead I tell him to use one of his healing aura bursts, he does and hes amazed as he pwns them. I show him where the bloodstones and ss ring chests are, the shrine then I take him to the gnolls for the fire storm greaves, cast implosion dude. He does and is pleasantly supprised when he turns them inside out.

I also tell him about dots for boss fights.

He was a nice guy, willing to take and ask for advice, how the hell did he get to 20 without knowing that clerics have offensive spells? He thanked me profusely not only for showing him where the chests where but letting him know that his charactor could do more than just be a jhealz bot.

His stats where not that bad either, he had 395 hp without a greensteel hp item and 1600 sp missing sp greensteel,and some other items, he said he regreted making the mistake of starting with 9 con, but I told him as long as he has heavy fort, glf and a greensteel hp item he should be sitting around 450 hp enough to run some easyier epics to get 20 tokens then to tr, or he could just use the toon for normal shroud farming.


But yeah im just supprised at how many level 20s I see like this cleric, paladins that don't know about LOH, that they have cure spells, rangers that dont know about manyshot or that they have cure spells.In contrast on my way to 20 on my first toon I ran into plenty of people willing to give me good advice. Is this a new trend then?

[djsonar919]

Pike. It can easily get you to 20 on a 1.9.

[NaturalHazard]

:confused:
Pike. It can easily get you to 20 on a 1.9.

I don't even have a cleric but I knew those basic things, this guy had a good attitude, im just supprised this whole time no one took the time to help him out, but I suppose everyone would be happy as long as he kept the hjeals comming.

[dkyle]

A lot of people don't react well to advice, especially if it contradicts their expectations of what their character is "supposed" to be. If a Cleric is keeping the party healed well enough, it tends to not feel worth the hassle to tell him to do more.

Was in a group with a Bard recently that was the absolute worst Bard I'd ever seen. Sub 250 HP, 19bard/1sorc split, no IC enhancements taken at all (so a whopping +3/+3 IC; yes, barely better, and sometimes worse, than a GH plus Good Hope). But honestly, where was I going to begin to give advice on that mess?

[ArcaneMelee]

...
He was a nice guy, willing to take and ask for advice, how the hell did he get to 20 without knowing that clerics have offensive spells? He thanked me profusely not only for showing him where the chests where but letting him know that his charactor could do more than just be a jhealz bot.
...

Not surprising at all. I'd imagine that the majority of the population he had met in PUGs think of clerics as hjeal bots, and made sure to tell him he was doing it wrong if he swung his mace or cast a spell.

Especially being a nice guy - it takes experience for one of those type to stand up to people who seem to know what they're talking about.

[Adrian99]

No class can pike to 20 as well as a cleric. Why it is that pugs tend to keep a perfectly good 5-man party on hold waiting for a piker is beyond me.

[Aeolwind]

:confused:

I don't even have a cleric but I knew those basic things, this guy had a good attitude, im just supprised this whole time no one took the time to help him out, but I suppose everyone would be happy as long as he kept the hjeals comming.

I hazard to guess that he didn't have a D&D Background and had NO idea what implosion did or cared what it did. Probably didn't know that RA damaged undead, or at least didn't take notice. Once I got Implosion my buddies found heals came far more rarely lol.

Amazingly enough, it is possible to get to 20 and not consult the wiki. He was probably one dang good healer though.

[Enoach]

Also of all the classes when in a group 90% of the time he would be the only Cleric. If the Cleric was his only character than it would not be until he Raided that he would get to meet another Divine - which 90% of the time would be doing... Party/Tank healing.

Forums are usually a good place to help get advice, but they can be intimidating especially if your not use to Trolls.

Bottom line, this poor fellow just didn't know any better. But thanks to you he is now on the path to enlightenment. BTW did you at least give him the appropriate link to the forum thread and encourage him to do some light reading?

[My2Cents]

(pardon my ignorance...what is a glf?) (I know I'm gonna kick myself...)

[Enoach]

(pardon my ignorance...what is a glf?) (I know I'm gonna kick myself...)

Greater Life False... the new misspelling of gfl Greater False Life...

[Memek]

Reminds me of a certain Cleric i once met.
I was running eDA and everything was fine until 2nd and 3rd boss. Before that the PM carried the quest and the Cleric didnt really have to heal (on my Dwarf Monk life btw, not FvS obviously). Sure enough we were rather confident when the boss dropped. However, that Cleric was completely INCAPABLE of keeping 1 guy healed while the boss was on him. During the fight, he even bought mana potions in the store (which i found rather silly, i''d rather have given him pots but what can you do...) but that didnt really matter because mana or not, he simply couldnt single target heal. It was a Cleric with mana from store bought mana pots, and anyone who had aggro died nontheless (except the PM who finished the boss with SLAs).
Eventually i asked him why he wouldnt be casting single-target-heal and he stopped moving for a minute or so - i suppose he entered his spell screen to drag Heal on his hotbar.
Apparantly, the only spell he had it on his bars had been Mass Heal.
This was a pretty big reason why i TRd from a Dwarf Monk to a HElf. Because, never again...

He was a jolly good fellow for sure, was very happy about it all and even after he had downed several store pots, he seemed oh so thankful to me sending him 100 Heal scrolls (he had never seen one of those, obviously).

But that isnt the point of my post... Why dont we tell people earlier on "how to play"? Simply because some people completely and utterly FREAK OUT if you say anything. That happens once or twice and you rather just shut up. First time i had someone turn hysterical was in Xorian Cipher where the caster would throw a Fireball at the scorpion just to see it burow before it hit, and again, and again... So i dared to mention "why not use Firewall?" which was answered by a hysterical tirade of "OMG dont tell me how to play".

And im done with "telling people how to play". I do that on the forums but i really cant stand seeing a grown man start crying in game because i would mention "Firewall" or "Dude, Heal scrolls?". Just not worth it... I'll rather send 100 Heal scrolls than be subject to a casual's hysteria. Never again. I'll just shut it...
In game? You can crash your head running against the wall, i'll send you some scrolls and i'll certainly keep my yap shut.
Exception if you're directly stepping on toes. Ie VoD, you're fighting in the cleaving area, yeah, i might mention your name and warn you about death before i cut the line. But more than that? So not worth it.

Everything ends, and some things end rather abruptly.

[Jasparion]

Pike. It can easily get you to 20 on a 1.9.

I know someone who in a matter of weeks has got to level 18 as a Cleric and doesnt even know how to buff or heal. He gets invited by TR groups because very occasionally they need a heal or a rez when something goes wrong.

The most interesting thing is he has an incredible collection of gear because the TR groups tend to pass it all to him because they already have all they need.

So he will get to 20 without ever having been challenged.

The interesting thing will be when he joins PuGs and is expected to carry his weight. I see fun times ahead. However, he may well continue to get invited to TR groups to heal even tough content simply because they dont need much help.

TLDR: If you cant play, play a healer and hope to get invited to stuff by people who can.

[Cauthey]

Reminds me of a certain Cleric i once met.
I was running eDA and everything was fine until 2nd and 3rd boss. Before that the PM carried the quest and the Cleric didnt really have to heal (on my Dwarf Monk life btw, not FvS obviously). Sure enough we were rather confident when the boss dropped. However, that Cleric was completely INCAPABLE of keeping 1 guy healed while the boss was on him. During the fight, he even bought mana potions in the store (which i found rather silly, i''d rather have given him pots but what can you do...) but that didnt really matter because mana or not, he simply couldnt single target heal. It was a Cleric with mana from store bought mana pots, and anyone who had aggro died nontheless (except the PM who finished the boss with SLAs).
Eventually i asked him why he wouldnt be casting single-target-heal and he stopped moving for a minute or so - i suppose he entered his spell screen to drag Heal on his hotbar.
Apparantly, the only spell he had it on his bars had been Mass Heal.
This was a pretty big reason why i TRd from a Dwarf Monk to a HElf. Because, never again...

He was a jolly good fellow for sure, was very happy about it all and even after he had downed several store pots, he seemed oh so thankful to me sending him 100 Heal scrolls (he had never seen one of those, obviously).

But that isnt the point of my post... Why dont we tell people earlier on "how to play"? Simply because some people completely and utterly FREAK OUT if you say anything. That happens once or twice and you rather just shut up. First time i had someone turn hysterical was in Xorian Cipher where the caster would throw a Fireball at the scorpion just to see it burow before it hit, and again, and again... So i dared to mention "why not use Firewall?" which was answered by a hysterical tirade of "OMG dont tell me how to play".

And im done with "telling people how to play". I do that on the forums but i really cant stand seeing a grown man start crying in game because i would mention "Firewall" or "Dude, Heal scrolls?". Just not worth it... I'll rather send 100 Heal scrolls than be subject to a casual's hysteria. Never again. I'll just shut it...
In game? You can crash your head running against the wall, i'll send you some scrolls and i'll certainly keep my yap shut.
Exception if you're directly stepping on toes. Ie VoD, you're fighting in the cleaving area, yeah, i might mention your name and warn you about death before i cut the line. But more than that? So not worth it.

Everything ends, and some things end rather abruptly.

I certainly hear ya, there.

People can be sensitive. Some are self proclaimed know-it-alls. A couple of bad trips with them in a party and making one small remark can break one from offering advice ever at all.

Me? I ask for advice all the time. Just last week I learned that there's an Iron Key in the lava pool near a locked door in the VoN pre-raid. Who knew?! I certainly didn't! (Thank you, Mitwo! :D ) Funny - I learned that while filling a wildcard spot in a guild's teaching raid. The teacher was ever so grumpy because other participants weren't listening. I listened with rapt attention, and compared notes against what I new about the raid.

I think that one of my favorite things about DDO is that there's always something to learn, and there are always new ingenious tactics that you haven't picked up yet.

If someone starts waxing on and on and on with free basic advice, I usually just *nod* and tune them out. Or, I might send them a /tell letting them know I've been around the block and know many of the simpler bits.

But, I would never react with a "OMG dont tell me how to play." Cause who knows? They might know something about playing a Pale Master that I don't! :D

[MeliCat]

I wonder if it's partly because they've only ever played with other people who don't know what a cleric is capable of?

Playing with the Larafay hireling - I can't help wondering if the way see gleefully cometfalls, greater commands and destructs is not just helpful, it's also meant to demonstrate what a divine caster can do. Coupled with the fact she runs out of sp and you have to pay attention and take her to a shrine and really miss her CC when she's out of sp, she's a great hireling for player base demonstration purposes if people haven't had the chance to group with knowledgable players.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Maybe, it was a few left over leveling sigils from 2 years ago?

[Paleus]

If all someone ever did on their cleric was to use cure spells and raise dead then 90%* of the player base would be just happy with them. Thus, with no instruction manual and no desire to look at wikis or forums a person can level to 20 adequately well enough without fully capitalizing on the abilities of their class.

When I first read the title I was going to respond with: Because they play a monk. (btw I like my monk its just that seems to be one where a lot of stuff can slip by people's notice).

*90% of statistics are pulled outta my -censored-

[QuantumFX]

I blame other MMOs that force classes into “Roles”.

“Cleric = Hjealer”
“Wizard = Mezzer”
“Fighter = Tank”

On the plus side though, once a player gets past that nonsense they usually grow into a better player.

[mystafyi]

to avoid cleric bashing, I must inform of the TR'd level 20 ranger that did not know he could use a bow and manyshot.

I asked him to pew pew the marilith in buying time and kite her. He stated that he was a tempest ranger and couldnt use bows. Luckily he was a nice enough chap and listened to advice, He just didnt know.

[mystafyi]

Playing with the Larafay hireling

Heh, Larafay (lvl15 drow cleric hireling) is better then the vast majority of players. I can state this as fact since nobody on the forums will dare disagree :D

[Jasparion]

The teacher was ever so grumpy because other participants weren't listening. I listened with rapt attention, and compared notes against what I new about the raid.

I think that one of my favorite things about DDO is that there's always something to learn, and there are always new ingenious tactics that you haven't picked up yet.

Doing eSnitch the other day the FvS talked about how you just have to tag each of the oozes before turning on the fire, and you get the chance for a scroll (previously I had been told that you turn on the fire 'til they are on low health and then finish them off - but tagging first then fire is a much safer way to guarantee the kill). Then when we did ePartyCrashers she said that you tag each of the illusionary mobs before taking down the Mark and you also get a chance at a scroll. An extra few seconds on each encounter for a much bigger chance for scrolls.

Now, I have no idea if this is true or myth, but it certainly sounded logical.

That said, in 50+ epics I have still only gotten 3 scrolls, and all of them are ones you can buy on the AH for 100k plat or less. I have been in 10+ runs without seeing anyone get a scroll. Though I have also been in 2 epics in a row when someone got an Antique Great Axe scroll, and someone I play with has picked up 2 of these as well.


to avoid cleric bashing, I must inform of the TR'd level 20 ranger that did not know he could use a bow and manyshot.

I repeatedly told a friend of mine to use his bow more, but he kept telling me he's Tempest and doesnt need to. Now at level 18 he pulls it out and uses Manyshot and cant believe how much DPS it does for those 20 seconds.

I dare say he'd be doing even more damage if he used his Human boost for +5 to hit or +5 to damage, as well as his Rogue Haste (2 things I have no doubt he never uses - because he doesnt like clickies or anything which involves clicking).

[whomhead]

It's easy as pie to get to level 20 on a cleric or FvS* without knowing about the offensive capabilities of your class. This doesn't mean that you're piking. All of the groups this guy went with would most likely be completely content with a cleric that simply kept their red bars full. They most likely would have been grateful for it. Offensive casting on a healer can be incredibly powerful, but any PuG will care about pretty much just one thing, and it sure isn't his implosion DC.

*Perhaps less likely on a FvS since they're not easily free to play.

[UnderwearModel]

There are lots and lots of level 20s in this game that have no idea how to solo. Not just clerics.

Shows how easy it is to get to level 20 is all.

As long as they are having fun, good for them.

[NaturalHazard]

A lot of people don't react well to advice, especially if it contradicts their expectations of what their character is "supposed" to be. If a Cleric is keeping the party healed well enough, it tends to not feel worth the hassle to tell him to do more.

Was in a group with a Bard recently that was the absolute worst Bard I'd ever seen. Sub 250 HP, 19bard/1sorc split, no IC enhancements taken at all (so a whopping +3/+3 IC; yes, barely better, and sometimes worse, than a GH plus Good Hope). But honestly, where was I going to begin to give advice on that mess?

Is this bard on khyber? I know one like that, spellsinger?

[hecate355]

:confused:

I don't even have a cleric but I knew those basic things, this guy had a good attitude, im just surprised this whole time no one took the time to help him out, but I suppose everyone would be happy as long as he kept the hjeals comming.

what surprises me personally more, is the fact that he somehow didnt find those things out on his own, at least some of em??

its not about mentorship or teaching, it seems to be more about being generally curious and trying to understand various things you run into.

Piked to 20 or not, he must had seen other people use bb/impolsion/destruction and such, in which case he would had faced the question, what the heck just happened on my screen.

[Khellendros13]

Doing eSnitch the other day the FvS talked about how you just have to tag each of the oozes before turning on the fire, and you get the chance for a scroll (previously I had been told that you turn on the fire 'til they are on low health and then finish them off - but tagging first then fire is a much safer way to guarantee the kill). Then when we did ePartyCrashers she said that you tag each of the illusionary mobs before taking down the Mark and you also get a chance at a scroll. An extra few seconds on each encounter for a much bigger chance for scrolls.

Now, I have no idea if this is true or myth, but it certainly sounded logical.

That said, in 50+ epics I have still only gotten 3 scrolls, and all of them are ones you can buy on the AH for 100k plat or less. I have been in 10+ runs without seeing anyone get a scroll. Though I have also been in 2 epics in a row when someone got an Antique Great Axe scroll, and someone I play with has picked up 2 of these as well.



I repeatedly told a friend of mine to use his bow more, but he kept telling me he's Tempest and doesnt need to. Now at level 18 he pulls it out and uses Manyshot and cant believe how much DPS it does for those 20 seconds.

I dare say he'd be doing even more damage if he used his Human boost for +5 to hit or +5 to damage, as well as his Rogue Haste (2 things I have no doubt he never uses - because he doesnt like clickies or anything which involves clicking).

Utter BS.

I have gotten scrolls from the Illusionary mobs without touching them.

[Callavan]

How do you get to 20 without knowing the basic abilities of your class?

:DLike this. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=249273):D

[Jasparion]

Utter BS.

I have gotten scrolls from the Illusionary mobs without touching them.

So if the Mark is destroyed and the mob hasnt been tagged you still get a chance for a scroll?

Anyone able to confirm this, because I have never seen this happen before.

[Tuney]

I've gotten scrolls from mobs dieing that aren't even 'active yet.' A place to test this , the mushroom part of Partycrashers. With good jumping SKILLS , you can avoid setting of the barrier and if luck can one shot the rune hehe.

[justagame]

As others have said, too many clerics hear from their pugs that they should be healbots, that any non-healing or non-buffing spell is a waste of mana.

[MsEricka]

All level 20's

I've seen favored souls not know they have wings
I've seen paladins not know that unyielding sovereignty does what it does (neg levels, death penalties etc)
I've seen paladins not know that divine sacrifice exists or that they have it but never use it because they don't know what it does
I've seen wizards take force of personality because they didn't know protection from evil blocked the command spell
I've seen arcanes that didn't use potency because "potency is for healers"

And the list goes on...

[dredre9987]

My bet is on an bought account

[Nibor]

I was level 15 before I activated the Bluff skill on my pure rogue.

[Healsavant]

Last night before I was going to log off I saw a lfm up blood stone farming need guide, it was a level 20 cleric. I thought ok I can show him where some of the desert chests are. I join.............. he states that he will be right there he has to repair he was getting his butt handed to him by the mobs out in the desert and hes happy to get a guide and someone to help fight the mobs as hes not a fighter and struggles to take them down.:eek::eek::eek:.

Cool, so I take him in there, I ask him to load implosion, and blade barrier before we go in. He does, we get to the undead I tell him to use one of his healing aura bursts, he does and hes amazed as he pwns them. I show him where the bloodstones and ss ring chests are, the shrine then I take him to the gnolls for the fire storm greaves, cast implosion dude. He does and is pleasantly supprised when he turns them inside out.

I also tell him about dots for boss fights.

He was a nice guy, willing to take and ask for advice, how the hell did he get to 20 without knowing that clerics have offensive spells? He thanked me profusely not only for showing him where the chests where but letting him know that his charactor could do more than just be a jhealz bot.

His stats where not that bad either, he had 395 hp without a greensteel hp item and 1600 sp missing sp greensteel,and some other items, he said he regreted making the mistake of starting with 9 con, but I told him as long as he has heavy fort, glf and a greensteel hp item he should be sitting around 450 hp enough to run some easyier epics to get 20 tokens then to tr, or he could just use the toon for normal shroud farming.


But yeah im just supprised at how many level 20s I see like this cleric, paladins that don't know about LOH, that they have cure spells, rangers that dont know about manyshot or that they have cure spells.In contrast on my way to 20 on my first toon I ran into plenty of people willing to give me good advice. Is this a new trend then?

Now he will think he is a battle cleric in ELOB! haha, good question, MAYBE just MAYBE he got with soem crazy die hard TR crazy toon like Sulimusmaxim or Velletri and leveled in like a week and just didnt have time with the fast grinding of some of these TR's to learn his character. Either way Good job helping others, My issue is when ppl dont tell you they are new and dont know what they are doing, never seems to end well.....

[Slink]

/snip

And tell me, how did you get your first few alts to 20?
yah figures :)

[NaturalHazard]

And tell me, how did you get your first few alts to 20?
yah figures :)

I leveled them up 1-14 was with a group of people who where first timmers I met in kortho's. I got build ideas from the forums, and advice on how to play from other people in game.

Anyway welcome back havent seen you around in a while.

[sephiroth1084]

Reminds me of a certain Cleric i once met.
I was running eDA and everything was fine until 2nd and 3rd boss. Before that the PM carried the quest and the Cleric didnt really have to heal (on my Dwarf Monk life btw, not FvS obviously). Sure enough we were rather confident when the boss dropped. However, that Cleric was completely INCAPABLE of keeping 1 guy healed while the boss was on him. During the fight, he even bought mana potions in the store (which i found rather silly, i''d rather have given him pots but what can you do...) but that didnt really matter because mana or not, he simply couldnt single target heal. It was a Cleric with mana from store bought mana pots, and anyone who had aggro died nontheless (except the PM who finished the boss with SLAs).
Eventually i asked him why he wouldnt be casting single-target-heal and he stopped moving for a minute or so - i suppose he entered his spell screen to drag Heal on his hotbar.
Apparantly, the only spell he had it on his bars had been Mass Heal.
This was a pretty big reason why i TRd from a Dwarf Monk to a HElf. Because, never again...

He was a jolly good fellow for sure, was very happy about it all and even after he had downed several store pots, he seemed oh so thankful to me sending him 100 Heal scrolls (he had never seen one of those, obviously).

But that isnt the point of my post... Why dont we tell people earlier on "how to play"? Simply because some people completely and utterly FREAK OUT if you say anything. That happens once or twice and you rather just shut up. First time i had someone turn hysterical was in Xorian Cipher where the caster would throw a Fireball at the scorpion just to see it burow before it hit, and again, and again... So i dared to mention "why not use Firewall?" which was answered by a hysterical tirade of "OMG dont tell me how to play".

And im done with "telling people how to play". I do that on the forums but i really cant stand seeing a grown man start crying in game because i would mention "Firewall" or "Dude, Heal scrolls?". Just not worth it... I'll rather send 100 Heal scrolls than be subject to a casual's hysteria. Never again. I'll just shut it...
In game? You can crash your head running against the wall, i'll send you some scrolls and i'll certainly keep my yap shut.
Exception if you're directly stepping on toes. Ie VoD, you're fighting in the cleaving area, yeah, i might mention your name and warn you about death before i cut the line. But more than that? So not worth it.

Everything ends, and some things end rather abruptly.
It really sucks that people react so poorly so even simple, polite advice.

Was running an elite Hound the other day and asked the artificer if he had Deadly Weapons. He said he did, but didn't have it prepared, because he needed the slots for other stuff. I asked him what he was carrying there instead, and then requested he prep DW at the shrine before the quest. It was unclear whether he had run HoX ever...he had run VoD, was a TR, and made some comment about having played DDO for a few years but never ran HoX, but I couldn't tell whether he was being sarcastic or not.

Then he started going on about how Deadly doesn't stack with greensteel, and how he doesn't need it how it's really not that useful. I, and others in the party, said first that it wasn't for us, it was for the puppies, and had nothing to do with greensteel, or him for that matter, but that it does stack with greensteel in any case. This went back and forth for a few minutes, with him eventually calling me a noob who needed DW to be effective, despite us explaining how the raid worked and that I could care less whether anyone in the group got Deadly so long as the dogs did. Then he started getting really nasty. Sigh.

On the other hand, though, I've had just as many experiences where I'd made a comment about doing something more effective that ended up leading to an hour-long conversation about what someone could do to play better, maximize their character's abilities or gear up more suitably. Sometimes you get **** thrown in your face and sometimes you get someone willing to learn.

[Galeria]

A cleric who only knows how to heal and has been quickly leveled up by pugs... you want to know how it happened?

Is there really a question here?

I'm sure the guy got blind tells whenever he logged in, was told it's no problem he doesn't know the quest, had people escort him through the slayer areas to the quest even if he was last to join and offered ship buffs without question.

On top of that, he was told repeatedly what an awesome cleric he was, many quests ending in "great heals, tx!" Especially if no one died. Even the stupid ones because he chased them around because that was "his job."

If he mentioned feeling frustrated that he couldn't kill stuff, he was told not to worry, not his job. Just keep everyone healed and things will be great.

And they were!

[Galeria]

Oh, and I walked a level 16 monk through putting finishing moves on her hotbar. She had no idea what they were or how to use them.

This game is vast with complex rulesets and mechanics. I know people who've been playing a while forget that, but there are no training wheels in game. Ok, there are premade paths but they don't teach you anything about skills, feats, enhancements or spells- they just fill them in for you. There's some vague reference to finishing moves but not enough to be intuitive.

And people who are new to this don't instinctively "know" about the forums or ddowiki... and even if they do, they can be overwhelmed when they try to find information because often they aren't exactly sure what they need to know in the first place.

I don't know why you'd harass anyone over their first ever toon. Help yes, harass and ridicule, no. There is a lot to learn. Which is a big part of what makes it fun; it's not simple.

[SSFWEl]

EASY!

PUG with zergers. With TR's who run through the quest. Many PUGs zerg, it's just the way it is.

I did about 50% zerging and 50% slower with non-zergers.

I did not use Assassinate until I was lvl 17ish, when some nice rogue explained to me how to sneak -> assassinate etc.

[Vint]

And tell me, how did you get your first few alts to 20?
yah figures :)

I paid attention to what was going on around me, but that was in beta.

What I find ammusing is how some people cant tell you the difference between a Sneak attack and evasion but they know how to buy 30% pots, guild renown pots and gems of fortune.

They wont take time to learn the game, but they have no problem figuring how to get to end game.

[Gremmlynn]

Heh, Larafay (lvl15 drow cleric hireling) is better then the vast majority of players. I can state this as fact since nobody on the forums will dare disagree :DNot to disagree, but Larafay's not a cleric, she's a favored soul.

[Ivan_Milic]

This game takes longer to learn it than other mmos,much longer.
When I started playing it was just too much information,too many items and other stuff and for people with no d&d background(like me) I think its even harder.
I was playing barb(pretty straightforward) and still didnt use dmg boost,power attack or any other clickies because I wasnt used to that.

[Koowluh]

I'm one of those clerics. I now mapped destruction, implosion, slay living and blade barrier to my keys on my gamepad, and when I'm solo-ing, I'm happily throwing them around. Nothing is more satisfying than seeing 10 monsters drop within 10 seconds after casting implosion.

I got to admit though, I'm getting my behinds handed to me in the shroud, even on normal. Getting to Harry; cool, but as soon as he appears (well, more like 10 seconds after), I'm in the timeout booth.

So what can a lvl 18 elf cleric with 294 HP do? My character's name is Aevillion, so you can look me up on MyDDO. I suggest sitting in a sturdy chair with handles so you don't fall out of it.

Things I won't do: DDO store tomes. I don't buy anything consumable from there and I do have intentions to TR this character (the monk seems really attractive).

Things I will do: gear, the basic kind. One thing that is bothering me (and you probably too) are my rings. I have a heavy fort ring in my bank and I wouldn't mind putting it on swap with my water breathing ring. That way, I get my armor slot free and I was thinking of putting an adamantite plate there to get some much needed DR.

One other thing that is bothering me is that I am slow. I feel like a brick. I was thinking of getting at least a striding item, but they only come in rings and boots it seems.

In a group, I'm mostly there for hjeals.

I would love to get my gear and my survivability up, but perhaps the best advice is to get to 20 asap and TR. I'd love to hear from you.

[NaturalHazard]

I'm one of those clerics. I now mapped destruction, implosion, slay living and blade barrier to my keys on my gamepad, and when I'm solo-ing, I'm happily throwing them around. Nothing is more satisfying than seeing 10 monsters drop within 10 seconds after casting implosion.

I got to admit though, I'm getting my behinds handed to me in the shroud, even on normal. Getting to Harry; cool, but as soon as he appears (well, more like 10 seconds after), I'm in the timeout booth.

So what can a lvl 18 elf cleric with 294 HP do? My character's name is Aevillion, so you can look me up on MyDDO. I suggest sitting in a sturdy chair with handles so you don't fall out of it.

Things I won't do: DDO store tomes. I don't buy anything consumable from there and I do have intentions to TR this character (the monk seems really attractive).

Things I will do: gear, the basic kind. One thing that is bothering me (and you probably too) are my rings. I have a heavy fort ring in my bank and I wouldn't mind putting it on swap with my water breathing ring. That way, I get my armor slot free and I was thinking of putting an adamantite plate there to get some much needed DR.

One other thing that is bothering me is that I am slow. I feel like a brick. I was thinking of getting at least a striding item, but they only come in rings and boots it seems.

In a group, I'm mostly there for hjeals.

I would love to get my gear and my survivability up, but perhaps the best advice is to get to 20 asap and TR. I'd love to hear from you.

Do you have the necro 4 pack? if you do you could get taps to farm out your mino's legens helm heavy fort and toughness 20 hp on your helm slot.

[CanuckWisdom]

If your not using a heavy fortification item because you dont want to give up water breathing, use the heavy fort, and swap into water breathing when you need it. Put both items on your hot bars to switch between with a mouse click. For me, accepting that I had to set up my gear on the hotbar to swap between it sometimes was a big step forward. I still feel the compulsion to try and fit as much as possible onto my gear without having to swap.

Striding is great. I consider it essential except for on characters that can cast long lasting movement speed buff spells.

In my opinion, though flaming may ensure, if your in a group, you are the best healer so if healing is what the group needs to succeed, thats you (first, not entirely by any means).

[Koowluh]

Do you have the necro 4 pack? if you do you could get taps to farm out your mino's legens helm heavy fort and toughness 20 hp on your helm slot.

Yes, I do have necro 4 and I gathered some tapestries. My helmet slot is currently used for a Wizardry something item, just to get a little more SP on my character. I'm not sure if it's a wise move replacing a slot where a lot of SP is on with heavy fort. It does clear my armor slot, but takes out a chunk of my SP too. I would probably end up under 1500 SP, which does not seem a lot (and I did put all my ability points in WIS).

[Koowluh]

If your not using a heavy fortification item because you dont want to give up water breathing, use the heavy fort, and swap into water breathing when you need it. Put both items on your hot bars to switch between with a mouse click. For me, accepting that I had to set up my gear on the hotbar to swap between it sometimes was a big step forward. I still feel the compulsion to try and fit as much as possible onto my gear without having to swap.

Striding is great. I consider it essential except for on characters that can cast long lasting movement speed buff spells.

In my opinion, though flaming may ensure, if your in a group, you are the best healer so if healing is what the group needs to succeed, thats you (first, not entirely by any means).

I have the same feeling, I would like to swap as little as possible. 8 str on my toon is not helping me either, so I'm trying to carry around as little as possible. I've already got an invis clicky ring which seems to help me a bit too, but I don't want to end up swapping rings and end up swapping my FF ring in midair (FF seems pretty essential). Water breathing; meh. You only need it a few times.

As for striding, the most it is on is boots. I'm wearing boots of corrosion there. I can buff that resist though, unless I'm fighting beholders.

[Cendaer]

He was a nice guy, willing to take and ask for advice, how the hell did he get to 20 without knowing that clerics have offensive spells?

Probably because he was force-relegated to a heal-bot role in every PuG he joined on the way to 20.

His guild likely used him for the same purposes, because by the time he joined them, he was already trained to think that's what is "expected" of him (or perhaps he joined early, and that's what they trained him to be).

It's likely all he'd been taught was what others believe to be the "basic" abilities of his class. Since he's such a nice guy, he probably took them at their word.

Chances are, he hadn't been allowed to explore the more potent nuances of his own class.

How unfortunate.

Glad to hear you took the time to let him explore what he's capable of. Very nice of you.:)

[Memek]

I'm one of those clerics. I now mapped destruction, implosion, slay living and blade barrier to my keys on my gamepad, and when I'm solo-ing, I'm happily throwing them around. Nothing is more satisfying than seeing 10 monsters drop within 10 seconds after casting implosion.

I got to admit though, I'm getting my behinds handed to me in the shroud, even on normal. Getting to Harry; cool, but as soon as he appears (well, more like 10 seconds after), I'm in the timeout booth.
Mouse and Keyboard would probably allow better movement.
I suppose it's a Meteor Swarm that kills you. If you are running circles around Harry, those should miss. Cast while jumping, and cast quickened. Always quickened...
Keep Fire Prot up, UMD Fireshield Cold if you can. Get a Jump buff, maybe wear an item (Jump more or less caps out at 40)..
Buff your (and others') Reflex save - GH, Recitation, Holy Aura, Dex item (a Cat potion if you cant fit in an item), alchemical ritual for saves etc. Clerics do have a weak Reflex save but you should be able to pump it high enough to save somewhat reliably.
The (non-Devil) blades spawn at the wall so stand somewhere between Harry and the wall. Then, when the blades cycle in, just step back through the gap. And dont forget to dodge his spells by running circles.

Lots to do at once but Clerics have been running Shroud with less than 300 HP since the raid came out so it can be done.

Alternatively, stand such that spells aimed at you would be blocked by the melees. But be aware that a lot more spells will come flying when the melees pull out (because they arent blocking them anymore).

Of course ideally you'd have enough HP to stand in melee range so that you can use your Aura and Bursts.

Gear wise, Shavarath would be good. Torin's Choker for potency and back-up Wizardry, an Archmagi belt to be switched out with an Con+6 GFL belt. Ardor clickies (Ardor boosts Heals more than Potency so you'll want to use clickies even if you have Potency equipped).
And Minos, stuff like that. Nothing fancy. Gotta have Heavy Fort - you really dont need to wear a Waterbreathing Ring all the time.

[NaturalHazard]

Slink has a point though, when I was leveling my first guy I got a ton of help from pugs, it seems that pugging as a first timmer at the momment seems tougher now then it was for me, that cleric was not the only one like that who i have run accross recently. There was another guy playing a ranger in a hard VOD with no fort, and he had been in a higher level guild for a year he told me, it was kind of disapointing that his guild couldnt even help him with a mino's or something, but that could be because he plays in a totally different time zone to most of them.

But yeah im thinking I had it easy. :(

[Nospheratus]

This is a bit off topic, but i'll leave some suggestions here anyway.


I have the same feeling, I would like to swap as little as possible. 8 str on my toon is not helping me either, so I'm trying to carry around as little as possible. I've already got an invis clicky ring which seems to help me a bit too, but I don't want to end up swapping rings and end up swapping my FF ring in midair (FF seems pretty essential). Water breathing; meh. You only need it a few times.

As for striding, the most it is on is boots. I'm wearing boots of corrosion there. I can buff that resist though, unless I'm fighting beholders.
First impression, not too bad (i have definitely seen a lot worse! :)). And thumbs up for asking for advice!
You seem to have the basics covered: Heavy fort, wisdom, sup pot 6, WIS/CON item. So far so good!


There are striding items as rings, boots and even a rare raid loot quiver. This is probably one of the most important items for you so you can rush ahead everyone else :p

Feather fall and water breathing are both situational - have them but as swap items.


If you are willing to run some raids to get a few pieces of meaningful loot, try Vision of Destruction for the Bracers of the Glacier (http://ddowiki.com/page/Bracers_of_the_Glacier) - with those you get 200 sps and can replace your helm with minos. It might take some time though... depends on your luck :)

There is a lot of good gear, and you have to consider how much effort (ie: time mostly) you are willing to put into getting it.
Good place to start looking: http://itemwiki.cubicleninja.com/ or http://ddowiki.com/ (check Items and Crafting)

For crafting, start with greensteel - I suggest a Concordant Opposition (combination of Negative/Positive) item (not a necklace though, so you can use the Torc (http://ddowiki.com/page/Torc_of_Prince_Raiyum-de_II) later on). There are plenty of GS planners out there, you just have to find the one that you like most.


Good luck!

[Koowluh]

Thanks for the advice guys(girls too!), I know it's a little off topic, but it chimed in with this topic nicely, at least that's what I figured.

As for keyboard/mouse movement; when grouping, I will use that exclusively. My gamepad is only used for the "simple" work. Casting a lot of spells on different character is not simple. Playing on my barb or solo, the gamepad shines.

My guess is that your guess on the shroud is right; I was always in melee range (I figured I had to burst/mass heal). As stated, I really want to reduce my squishiness. I've already done so by taking a toughness feat and the racial toughness enhancements, boosting my HP considerably.

The bracers look awesome, but not too sure how often they drop. They seem pretty rare.

As for running raids, I'm game; I will always state how experienced I am with them and thus people can anticipate pretty well.

Again, thank you for helping us help you help us all. Don't hesitate to tell me something ingame too if you feel there's improvement to be had.

[fuzzy1guy]

Redacted

[SkyEyes_Sorceress]

And then there are Barbs who don't know they could have both Frenzy and Death Frenzy active at the same time. Oh, and also reading their charsheet as having Strength of 52+21 = 73 ..

[Ivan_Milic]

And then there are Barbs who don't know they could have both Frenzy and Death Frenzy active at the same time. Oh, and also reading their charsheet as having Strength of 52+21 = 73 ..

lol

[Thrudh]

I got to admit though, I'm getting my behinds handed to me in the shroud, even on normal. Getting to Harry; cool, but as soon as he appears (well, more like 10 seconds after), I'm in the timeout booth.

So what can a lvl 18 elf cleric with 294 HP do?

Move around a lot so when he throws a meteor swarm, you're not just standing there. Keep Protection from Fire up on yourself at all times. If you get hit, heal yourself, and recast Protection from Fire right away, even before healing the group.

If you can find an Ice Cloak on the Auction House, you can use it to cast Fire Shield on yourself (50% protection from fire)


One other thing that is bothering me is that I am slow. I feel like a brick. I was thinking of getting at least a striding item, but they only come in rings and boots it seems.

So get some striding boots.

[Thrudh]

cast quickened. Always quickened...

Oh yeah you definitely want Quicken on if you're new to healing in the Shroud.

[Thrudh]

My guess is that your guess on the shroud is right; I was always in melee range (I figured I had to burst/mass heal).

Oh no no... Don't be close to Harry... Stand way back, avoid the blades, move around a bit (so you're not caught just standing there when he throws a meteor swarm at you), and cast quickened mass cures and mass heals on the group.

You're not going to be able to use your aura or your healing bursts next to Harry with 294 hps.

[Such755]

I tell you how he got to 20: He's a healbot.

Now hopefuly he'll learn that he can be more than that. Good for you for enlightening the man =)

[Astraghal]

I don't know but I've had a capped Bard for a few months now and just realized yesterday that the to-hit bonus from Inspire Greatness stacks with the to-hit bonus from Inspire Courage.

[MrWizard]

this is an extremely complicated game for a newer player, from builds to spells to stacking,etc.
there is no manual.

a new person coming in has no concise official manual to go and learn. If they are into research then they can try to learn the whole game from the wiki and forums...but not many new players are going to invest endless days on a new game doing research.

A lot of this type of thing could easily be handled by a short overview manual for each class telling people things they can do, expected play, and lead them in the direction of research should they want to build that class up.

Even long time players learn something they never knew now and then.

I think this game is different enough that new people who play other games (wow) have no clue there are other options or ways of doing things.

good job helping a new player.

[PNellesen]

Oh no no... Don't be close to Harry... Stand way back, avoid the blades, move around a bit (so you're not caught just standing there when he throws a meteor swarm at you), and cast quickened mass cures and mass heals on the group.

You're not going to be able to use your aura or your healing bursts next to Harry with 294 hps.

Well, you CAN, but not for very long... ;)

[voodoogroves]

Funny story.


Guy I know in DDO land. Decent guy, not a moron, but well known to simply "miss" things because they are not within the lens of his immediate focus.

Last night we're running Mired in Kobolds on elite for the streak. He's a multi-TR (sorc-sorc-sorc-wizard I think so far). He's wondering if we can take the mom just the 3 of us (I'm on a monk-archer, another on a bard). We can bring along Larafay to kill all the initial kobolds and then a few other hires to keep the fleshies alive.



... keep that in mind ... it's important ... multi-TR but predominantly as a fleshy sorcerer. This means he's ignored largely how other classes, feats, abilities may work that are not as important to him as a sorc. He read Aspenor's guide, but unlike us with lots of time to read everything and learn everything, he hasn't and doesn't bother. Need to know and he doesn't need to know it. Even reading the guide, if it says "you may want this as a WF, but don't bother on a fleshie" that is compartmentalized into the ignore-bin.




So I say "If you can DoT tank her and heal yourself I think we're golden. We can park the hires just out of range and can set them to help if you need as well."

We go in, he dies nearly instantly and dragon goes on a bit of a rampage. Bard tosses a d door up, we snag his stone and the hires who've died and head out.

I'm having my doubts we can pull this off any easy way - I mean I can probably earth stance / ninja fade it but that'll take a while and I'm sure my WIS-archer isn't going to hold aggro very well against any serious arcane DoTs. I run through a mental checklist.

"Were you shield blocking?" ...
... yes ... just kept failing concentration checks
"Quicken on?" ...
... I don't have quicken. Should I pick that up in my next slot?

This is his first life as a wizard and honestly he's new to WF and self healing as well (having been fleshie initially). He completely and totally missed the connection there. And here I was wondering why he was playing like a dancy drow with the running jumping kiting **** and not just blocking.


My other buddy and I mocked him and made fun of his manhood, as is fitting and just.

Still, totally outside his experience ... and true to his nature, running as a wizard life he's learning as he goes. He won't miss it on his next life and will probably take it at 12 since that's when I said I thought he should take it. He's got it now ... but really didn't even enter his mind before.

[Nagantor]

My favorite experience so far. VoD hard, we get into the actual raid with little trouble. Once inside, our 19 Rogue/1 Fighter states: I'm not a trapper rogue, my Search/DD is like 4. We wiped.

[Ancient]

Heh, Larafay (lvl15 drow cleric hireling) is better then the vast majority of players. I can state this as fact since nobody on the forums will dare disagree :D
She's a fvs, and a very good one at that.

[sweez]

quicken story

Hmm, I take quicken at 18 or 20 on my wizzies, before elite amrath/epics full ranks in concentration plus a concentration item (plus stoneskin if you can be bothered) = no fail casting/scrolling :p

[Riggs]

:confused:

I don't even have a cleric but I knew those basic things, this guy had a good attitude, im just supprised this whole time no one took the time to help him out, but I suppose everyone would be happy as long as he kept the hjeals comming.

Most pugs expect a cleric to sit back and hjeel. Most pugs get mad when the cleric dares to kill stuff - that mana is for HEALING not killing, you are not doing your job if you are outkilling the other party members.

Have posted in other places - like the 'how hard is DDO' thread - and lower to mid levels are stupidly easy now and so easy to pike that many people do sleep their way to 20 and dont know how their character or the game works.

I posted a couple years ago about the need for 'training missions' where there is one for each class/function - like the old old ones but not so silly low level. They should either go up, or be selectable rating up to level 10, and to complete - solo - requires a player to be able to do class functions properly. It could come with class specific pop up tips, and a rating on how well/fast you complete the 'challenge'.

Quests now(below higher levels) have no requirement of the group being competent at all - all that is required is that at least one of the party members be capable of killing stuff - and I have personally witnessed over many leveling characters that many people do indeed drift their way to 20. Some take advice, ask questions, and learn, and a lot also do not - but they still get the xp at the end just the same.

[Chauncey1]

HA!
I thought this thread was about my first toon!

[darkzane]

I'm one of those clerics. I now mapped destruction, implosion, slay living and blade barrier to my keys on my gamepad, and when I'm solo-ing, I'm happily throwing them around. Nothing is more satisfying than seeing 10 monsters drop within 10 seconds after casting implosion.

I got to admit though, I'm getting my behinds handed to me in the shroud, even on normal. Getting to Harry; cool, but as soon as he appears (well, more like 10 seconds after), I'm in the timeout booth.

So what can a lvl 18 elf cleric with 294 HP do? My character's name is Aevillion, so you can look me up on MyDDO. I suggest sitting in a sturdy chair with handles so you don't fall out of it.

Things I won't do: DDO store tomes. I don't buy anything consumable from there and I do have intentions to TR this character (the monk seems really attractive).

Things I will do: gear, the basic kind. One thing that is bothering me (and you probably too) are my rings. I have a heavy fort ring in my bank and I wouldn't mind putting it on swap with my water breathing ring. That way, I get my armor slot free and I was thinking of putting an adamantite plate there to get some much needed DR.

One other thing that is bothering me is that I am slow. I feel like a brick. I was thinking of getting at least a striding item, but they only come in rings and boots it seems.

In a group, I'm mostly there for hjeals.

I would love to get my gear and my survivability up, but perhaps the best advice is to get to 20 asap and TR. I'd love to hear from you.

Drop boots of corrosion. The 10 inherent acid resist is nice but you can cast your own resists. Beholder can't dispel ship buffs if you have access to those.

Get a set of 20-25% striders preferably with a guild augment slot. Small guild aug is +10hp, medium +15hp, large +20hp.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Guild_Crafting

They may take a while to find but are worth the trouble. If you can't find any striders but something with an augment slot you can get someone to craft an unbound 20% striding shard and make your own.

You don't have a false life item that I can see? Try to get a belt or ring with Greater False Life (+30HP).
Until you can sort that out drop the scorched bracers and get the Nightforge Armbands from A Relic of a Sovereign Past.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Nightforge_Armbands

+20HP and 3 heroism clickies.

Get a magi (100sp) scepter or mace or something. Equip in your offhand instead of your shield before you enter a quest or shrine. You can use the 100sp for buffing, summoning or to get the first heal or two off and then swap to your shield.

Swap the helm for Minos. You really want that +20hp from toughness. The heavy fort frees up your armour or ring slot.

Get the Sustaining Symbiont from The Sane Asylum for +1 exceptional con. If you have access to a +1 con ship buff this will give you another +20hp and has Greater False Life on it for another +30hp (does not stack with bracers).

Finish up giant hold quests on elite. Do the reavers refuge quests. Get 150 Agents favour for the Draconic Vitality feat for an extra stacking +10hp.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Draconic_Vitality

Make some green steel goggles with HP and con op.
http://perfectweb.org/ddo/crafting/base_crafting.php?base=15&tier1=59&tier2=132&tier3=168&tier4=167&bonus1=20&bonus2=65&altC=0&type=i

You can make the tier 1 and tier 2 very easily with small and medium ingredients. If you ask around your guild or just on runs people may be able to help you out with these. A lot of people have more than they know what to do with as they farm for larges.

Tier 2 greensteel will give you +25 stacking HP. Tier 3 will give you +45.

Get the Alchemist's Pendant from Blown to Bits. It has +6 con, +20 stacking hp (does not stack with t3 green steel) and will give you an extra turn undead.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Alchemist's_Pendant

Use superior ardor V potions to boost your aura and bursts by +75% instead of the +50% from potency.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Ardor

You can buy them in the house of wizard in house J.

My FVS melees in shroud with 450 HP and uses quickened mass heal. Seems to work fairly well.

Do a lot more playing around with your cleric before you decide to TR. Try out a monk on another character and see how it plays for you. Clerics can be a lot of fun! :)

[Hafeal]

In addition to the excellent comments below, I would add that DDO has grown increasingly a game to solo or duo. The 'requirement' to group has reached such a low level, that many players miss the learning that went on when you were more often in full groups.

Add to it the increase in game size and corresponding complexity and lack of 'official' training resources (Like a character planner and decent Character sheet (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=358046)), a player's age, maturity and attention span, and DDO's tendency to 'change the rules' from time to time, it is no wonder it can take players through a TR or two before they really learn their character.

So, overall, yes, I think there is an increase in this situation and I don't see it diminishing any time soon.


Oh, and I walked a level 16 monk through putting finishing moves on her hotbar. She had no idea what they were or how to use them.

This game is vast with complex rulesets and mechanics. I know people who've been playing a while forget that, but there are no training wheels in game. Ok, there are premade paths but they don't teach you anything about skills, feats, enhancements or spells- they just fill them in for you. There's some vague reference to finishing moves but not enough to be intuitive.

And people who are new to this don't instinctively "know" about the forums or ddowiki... and even if they do, they can be overwhelmed when they try to find information because often they aren't exactly sure what they need to know in the first place.

I don't know why you'd harass anyone over their first ever toon. Help yes, harass and ridicule, no. There is a lot to learn. Which is a big part of what makes it fun; it's not simple.


this is an extremely complicated game for a newer player, from builds to spells to stacking,etc.
there is no manual.

a new person coming in has no concise official manual to go and learn. If they are into research then they can try to learn the whole game from the wiki and forums...but not many new players are going to invest endless days on a new game doing research.

A lot of this type of thing could easily be handled by a short overview manual for each class telling people things they can do, expected play, and lead them in the direction of research should they want to build that class up.

Even long time players learn something they never knew now and then.

I think this game is different enough that new people who play other games (wow) have no clue there are other options or ways of doing things.

good job helping a new player.

[hecate355]

Yes, I do have necro 4 and I gathered some tapestries. My helmet slot is currently used for a Wizardry something item, just to get a little more SP on my character. I'm not sure if it's a wise move replacing a slot where a lot of SP is on with heavy fort. It does clear my armor slot, but takes out a chunk of my SP too. I would probably end up under 1500 SP, which does not seem a lot (and I did put all my ability points in WIS).

Dead people dont benefit from mana

[dkyle]

Yes, I do have necro 4 and I gathered some tapestries. My helmet slot is currently used for a Wizardry something item, just to get a little more SP on my character. I'm not sure if it's a wise move replacing a slot where a lot of SP is on with heavy fort. It does clear my armor slot, but takes out a chunk of my SP too. I would probably end up under 1500 SP, which does not seem a lot (and I did put all my ability points in WIS).

You only really need your SP item when you shrine. By the time you rebuff yourself, let alone the party (if you couldn't before shrining), you should be far enough down that taking it off costs you no SP.

HP, and even more importantly Heavy Fort, are vital in combat. Having extra max SP above your remaining SP generally isn't.

Even if you can't fit the Minos, you need Heavy Fort somewhere else. It simply isn't optional past level 14 or so.

[NaturalHazard]

My favorite experience so far. VoD hard, we get into the actual raid with little trouble. Once inside, our 19 Rogue/1 Fighter states: I'm not a trapper rogue, my Search/DD is like 4. We wiped.

ive done it a few times without the traps being disarmed they can be avoided. But yeah all those times occured because of some similar situation.

[Jasparion]

My favorite experience so far. VoD hard, we get into the actual raid with little trouble. Once inside, our 19 Rogue/1 Fighter states: I'm not a trapper rogue, my Search/DD is like 4. We wiped.

I have a Bard which will have a few Rogue levels for Evasion and SA but wont be developed for trapping (want the Social skills to all be high), but to go 19 levels and not bother with trapping is just plain bizarre.

Even with 8 INT you'd have more than enough skill points.

[Koowluh]

Wow, this thread exploded with tips and tricks. Thanks for them all.

Don't get me wrong; I have heavy fort. It was the first thing I bought when it came available to me. It's just on a ring slot at the moment (and on my armor slot, but I wanted to replace that with a gleaming adamantine plate, or perhaps a niftier armor from RR/GH), and I can easily swap out my other ring slot for what I need (FF, WB, invis).

As for my boots, I've seen 30% stridings for sale on the AH and I can easily buy them. Money shouldn't really be an issue unless we're talking about the 6 digit numbers.

I've actually finished a shroud run yesterday. I ended up in timeout again, but lasted quite a bit longer on Harry because of the tips here (it was a blade that got me, not Harry).

It seems important to get HP up as high as possible. I've always figured that the items that come with GFL will make me sacrifice something else that I need. I wouldn't want to give up 6 wis or 6 con in exchange for GFL for example. The 6 con will give me about 100% more hp than a GFL item and the wis, well... I'm a cleric, they kinda need it. :/

I'm still interested in going for the combo minos legens & bracers of the glacier. That way, I'm able to wear another ring, which will probably be something along the lines of a +STR & GFL. Still gotta get those items though...

[NaturalHazard]

It seems important to get HP up as high as possible. I've always figured that the items that come with GFL will make me sacrifice something else that I need. I wouldn't want to give up 6 wis or 6 con in exchange for GFL for example. The 6 con will give me about 100% more hp than a GFL item and the wis, well... I'm a cleric, they kinda need it. :/

I'm still interested in going for the combo minos legens & bracers of the glacier. That way, I'm able to wear another ring, which will probably be something along the lines of a +STR & GFL. Still gotta get those items though...

Theres belts from amarath that give you gfl and +6 con, but yeah have to find some friendly people to run you out there.

as for the armour 100%fort, and gfl slotted somewhere is going help you more than 3 dr. imho

[Koowluh]

Theres belts from amarath that give you gfl and +6 con, but yeah have to find some friendly people to run you out there.

as for the armour 100%fort, and gfl slotted somewhere is going help you more than 3 dr. imho

I'm actually trying to have my cake and eat it too. 100% fort, GFL and the 3 DR. I know the 3 DR won't mean much and will happily replace it again for anything better.

A belt in Amrath you say? I'll keep an eye out for LFMs there. Perhaps I'll run into it.

[Denegrator]

I paid attention to what was going on around me, but that was in beta.

What I find ammusing is how some people cant tell you the difference between a Sneak attack and evasion but they know how to buy 30% pots, guild renown pots and gems of fortune.

They wont take time to learn the game, but they have no problem figuring how to get to end game.

What he said.

I've always been a firm believer in learning a character from the ground up, and here's a tip; never be affraid to ask questions.

And my little trinket of the day: Stagger and store attacks in your chain as a melee. Using the 3rd or 4th attack as your opening attack carries a higher to hit bonus, combine that with a special attack, and bingo. (eg. stunning fist {or in this case stunning round house kick to the face}, sunder, trip, hamstring) ;) To stagger the chain you need to use singular mouse clicks instead of auto attack, and tumble between each click, or after 1, 2, or 3 clicks. To store, use the stagger technique, but don't attack after the last tumble, then you can run around, climb ladders even, jump, but don't use things like cleave, or drink potions, change weapons, or attack while moving, etc., then before you attack your next mob, tumble towards it, you should have your attack still stored.

(hope that isn't an exploit, been using this for years)

[Ugumagre]

So I guess you are happy now, NaturalHazard.
You converted a happy satisfied hjealer into an abusive battle cleric.
You should have told him to dump con in the TR. That would be good advice.