Ship Buffs - Wasteing Everyone's Time. [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

AestorTheKnight

01-23-2012, 12:18 PM

Guild Airships were introduced to DDO in Summer 2010. They were heralded as a kind of "Houseing" Mechanic for Guilds, a private space where Players could meet, organise or just hang out. Cool! :)

But they also brought one other important addition to DDO - Ship Buffs.

There are lots of things that could be said about Ship Buffs. Some people like them, some people dont, most people use them.

But there is one thing that I think we can all agree on - Ship Buffs have been taking 5-10 Minutes to get at the start of every party for the last year and a half.

A Party forms, and instead of everyone moving to the Quest, almost everyone hurries off to the nearest Guild Air Ship Portal to get Ship Buffs. This ussually takes between 5 -10 minutes, every hour.

Then you do the quest, and if someone dies, they lose their Ship Buffs. They often moan and complain "Oh no I've lost my ship buffs... booo hoo..." And then for sure after finishing that quest, they will be wandering off to the nearest Guild Airship Portal to get new Ship Buffs before the start of the next quest. Another 5-10 minutes.

How much players time do you think this has wasted in approximately the last 500 days? A lot.

And why??

I can see no good reason.

So... why not just have Ship Buffs being permanant, but lost on Death? Since any self respecting player keeps his Ship Buffs active at all available moments, why not just have them last continuously?

Or how about a 6 Hour Timer on Ship Buffs like Guild Augment Slots - that would be a lot better.

But please, somehow, Turbine - change this sillyness cos its Wasteing Everyones Time.

Thank you. :)

djl

01-23-2012, 12:27 PM

The problem is people don't have any courtesy for their fellow party members. You don't need every single goddam buff on the ship, yet many people go around getting them all. The ones that matter most are the resists, con, and whatever stat your class uses for damage. For any DPS class, the Dhakiri Vigor (+2 damage) is also nice. Otherwise, that's all you need. You don't need the training dummy, and that is unfortunately what many people waste most of the time on.

Altogether, it should take less than two minutes to get ship buffs and report to the dungeon to start the quest/raid (that is one minute for buffs, one minute for travel). If you're one of the last people to join the party, you should suck it up and go without buffs. They are a luxury, not a necessity. If you can't do something without ship buffs, you need to reevaluate your build.

SkyEyes_Sorceress

01-23-2012, 12:33 PM

My guess it was designed such way.

On the other hand, there is nothing do to anyway while waiting for last healer in ToD ..

somenewnoob

01-23-2012, 12:33 PM

I don't think the problem is with teh buffs themselves or their length, it's with a lot of players general lack of self sufficiency.

I like to grab ship buffs, all those resist 30's are pretty nice, not to mention a +2 con and a few others. BUT.....if I am the last to join and they're waiting on me, I can go to the quest, throw on a cloak and a ring and chug a couple resist pots and have buffs that are nearly as good as the ships, because I choose to be prepared and as self sufficient as possible on any toon I have.

So I think it's not the buffs that are the problem, but players who over rely on them. (These are usually the same players screaming for rage and haste all quest long.....hey, they make clickies and pots for that?")

I don't think changing the length of them would cure the over reliance on them, that's treating the symptom imo.

Dragavon

01-23-2012, 12:36 PM

I'll reply right away, just getting ship buffs :D

aberent

01-23-2012, 12:42 PM

My guess it was designed such way.

On the other hand, there is nothing do to anyway while waiting for last healer in ToD ..

I agree, waiting for a healer takes way longer than any ship buff runs.

EddieB_TBC

01-23-2012, 12:43 PM

On a positive (?) note we no longer have people queued up in house P waiting for the last person in their party to say they are ready before all grabbing the 30 minute resist 20 buffs and hauling it for the quest in hopes we would get the quest completed before the buffs ran out.
:D

Kushiel

01-23-2012, 12:53 PM

Longer timers would be nice.

Lasting 'permanently' until death would be great!

More simple and usable layouts to the boats (and/or the capability of placing the hookpoints as desired) sure would not hurt.

Maybe tie the longer timer or permanent implementation to various guild levels of that dead-zone of "Rewards" 33-45? And not make it all tied to spending TP in the store for Gold-Seal items.

In_Like_Flynn

01-23-2012, 12:55 PM

I like the idea of ship buffs being permanent until death.

Tid12

01-23-2012, 12:55 PM

You don't need the training dummy, and that is unfortunately what many people waste most of the time on.

The training dummy isnt needed (like ALL the buffs of the ship) but it is for sure nice for those builds lacking to-hit, specially if you are doing an Echrono or ELob, or any other Harder raid on harder difficulties with somewhat high AC bosses.

Thou, I agree anyway, ship buffs arent needed and I personally just get them for Abbot or Elite/Epic Raids.

I avoid them for normal questing or easy raids like Reavers (really?)

sebastianosmith

01-23-2012, 01:06 PM

kingfisher

01-23-2012, 01:14 PM

imo there should be an achievement that unlocks the ability to get all the buffs on your ship at once. this would save so much time.

sk3l3t0r

01-23-2012, 01:15 PM

Generaly speaking, games shouldn't be designed around bad players. If they lack the courtesy and respect for your time, don't include them in your party. This is not bad game design, this is bad behaviour.

Grosbeak07

01-23-2012, 01:16 PM

I agree.

One of my guilds is addicted to ship buffs. They have to "refesh" them AFTER EVERY SINGLE STINKING RUN. :mad:

Unless I happen to have some strange need to be on the guild ship, I almost never get ship buffs.

licho

01-23-2012, 01:18 PM

I agree that the ship buff could be made working untill death or log off.
There is no logic reason to do otherwise, exept "we like lots of timers simply running ship buffs is not part of gameplay we should support since its not fun.

The other solucion (do not explude):
- Make the axer package avaiable in 1st mate. (like "get all ship buffs onboard) as i said cliking all shrines we want (even if its like 5xres + con + primary stat + orc + silverflame (or whatever) ) is not really exiting.

And since we r talking about buffs, maybe its good idea to make House P buffs 1 hour?
The 30 min is very inconvienient, and to have it i need to literally stay there and wait till group form up.

EDIT:
Sorry, but inconvienience of global buffs is bad game design. Its game aspect, if something is introduce in game officially we can assume its intended to use it. If the ship buffs it means players could use them, and doing it is ok. Now, if using game mechanics take longer than polite its problem of the game design. Especially if its not impossible to fix that. And there is a simple solucion to solve the problem - make ship buffs perma till death or logoff.

grodon9999

01-23-2012, 01:23 PM

A 6-24 hour timers or until death would be preferred.

AestorTheKnight

01-23-2012, 01:25 PM

I like the idea of ship buffs being permanent until death.

This is really the purpose of my Post.

Making Ship Buffs Permanent until Death, or at least last for 6 hours, would mostly eliminate the frankly pointless and frustrating problem of waiting for people to Ship Buff, and also wasting 5 minutes of players time every hour.

It would give players the freedom to play the game, and not worry about their Ship Buff Timers...

somenewnoob

01-23-2012, 01:28 PM

It would give players the freedom to play the game, and not worry about their Ship Buff Timers...

Just skipping ship buffs does that as well!

Man, how easy do things need to be?

You effers who are advocating this, I better not see you posting in a shroud blade thread talking about how challenge is good and you like the blades! :p

AestorTheKnight

01-23-2012, 01:28 PM

EDIT:
Sorry, but inconvienience of global buffs is bad game design. Its game aspect, if something is introduce in game officially we can assume its intended to use it. If the ship buffs it means players could use them, and doing it is ok. Now, if using game mechanics take longer than polite its problem of the game design. Especially if its not impossible to fix that. And there is a simple solucion to solve the problem - make ship buffs perma till death or logoff.

Completely agree with this. :)

FranOhmsford

01-23-2012, 01:28 PM

OK - Let's take Tangleroot as an example - Some groups can zerg this of course but most will take more than an hour to do all 10 parts.
Let's say 90% of those take less than 2 hours though.

2 hours should be more than enough time for any quest or chain in the game.

I'd also like to see House P and J buffs get this same 2 hr timer.

I'd also like to see House J get some different buffs for 150 favour - Why do they give you exactly the same as House P gives at 75?

AestorTheKnight

01-23-2012, 01:29 PM

Just skipping ship buffs does that as well!

I personally almost never use Ship Buffs (I played DDO long before they existed and dont feel the need for a crutch to support my gameplay.) - But 95% of the players I play with do. And it frustrates me to no-end to wait for them.

Postumus

01-23-2012, 01:31 PM

grodon9999

01-23-2012, 01:31 PM

I personally almost never use Ship Buffs (I played DDO long before they existed and dont feel the need for a crutch to support my gameplay.) - But 95% of the players I play with do. And it frustrates me to no-end to wait for them.

I frustrates me more when people ask for an elemental resist when they could have buffed while the group was forming.

grodon9999

01-23-2012, 01:32 PM

I agree.

The timer is completely arbitrary. May as well make it last 8 hours or until death. I would think that would be minimal coding just resetting the timer expiration time vs trying to create a 1st mate buff that calculates all the individual buffs on your ship.

8 hours or until death would be fine.

danotmano1998

01-23-2012, 01:32 PM

Ship buffs are not the problem, IMO.

The problem lies with the people that wait until the last minute to do their buffing.

Just skip them if its time to start the quest. Really. It's that easy.
Most of what you can get on the ship you can do with potions, clickies, etc..

Courtesy is never a bad thing.

AestorTheKnight

01-23-2012, 01:33 PM

I frustrates me more when people ask for an elemental resist when they could have buffed while the group was forming.

No-offence - But I think thats the wrong way to look at it, for various reasons too long and complex to explain here. What if the person is guild less?

grodon9999

01-23-2012, 01:35 PM

No-offence - But I think thats the wrong way to look at it, for various reasons too long and complex to explain here. What if the person is guild less?

Then it's okay, but when you're in a level 80+ guild and we're waiting a few minutes for that last member or two you have no excuse for not picking up resists.

Or if and airship invite is offered and you decline, again while waiting a few minutes for a group to fill, you shouldn't ask for a resist.

It takes me all of 90 seconds to grab what I need and get to wherever i need to go, i wish the rest of the game would be as fast doing it but not everone can teleport.

AestorTheKnight

01-23-2012, 01:38 PM

Then it's okay, but when you're in a level 80+ guild and we're waiting a few minutes for that last member or two you have no excuse for not picking up resists.

Fair enough. :)

Captain_Wizbang

01-23-2012, 01:46 PM

taking 5-10 Minutes

Ive timed this on a capped toon & a lvl 10 melee on A guild lvl guild 100 ship.

2 minutes for the capped toon (15 second dummy)

3 minutes for the lvl 10.

That being said, when filing pugs, dont bother with buffs till full, if you need to fill that is.

Let's look at a ToD, lately filling ToD's take around 15 to 20 minutes to fill.

Why arent people griping about that here?

Because it's part of the game. Deal with the fact that when using an lfm you cant control how fast you fill nor should you worry about people slowing you down to start a quest, Tod's, Shrouds are different because of the lockout timer.

This is another thread that promotes the "Easy Button" concept, so.
Your point has been posted many times, and once again I personally don't agree with it.

Airships & buffs are fine the way they are. IMO

ArcaneMelee

01-23-2012, 01:47 PM

Ship buffs are not the problem, IMO.

The problem lies with the people that wait until the last minute to do their buffing.
...

That's because they start to decay immediately. I think that Ship Buffs & Guild Slots shouldn't decay in public areas. That way, everyone can get buffed up and wait by the launch point.

It would also be cool if Ship Buffs were split into categories to limit their use. For example, getting Fire Resist 30 should replace any existing [Elemental] Resist 30.

My guild is only level 40, so I only use the Kobold Shaman (3 dragons), Hobgoblin something-or-other (+ damage) and Training Dummy (+ to-hit). I wouldn't mind if I only got to choose one.

somenewnoob

01-23-2012, 01:51 PM

That's because they start to decay immediately. I think that Ship Buffs & Guild Slots shouldn't decay in public areas. That way, everyone can get buffed up and wait by the launch point.

I'd be on board with this for sure. Don't know how many times I've been standing in the tod hallway waiting for a healer and one by one, brb refreshing buffs.

I guess I don't see a need for an extended timer for a couple reasons:

I don't rely on ship buffs on any toon. I get them when I have time to, and have pots/spells etc. for when I don't.

It doesn't bother me waiting a couple minutes for people to get buffs. I'm a patient guy, if you need a couple minutes to get buffs that will make the quest go more smoothly I'm all for it. (Especially when I'm on my cleric and love that healing amp buff guy!)

baronlager

01-23-2012, 01:53 PM

countfitz

01-23-2012, 02:06 PM

They do save time buffing in quest, which saves about one minute right there, not to mention crazy SP. They save even more time per quest depending on how many shrines you plan on using and how long the quest is. In a 5 part raid, like shroud, where you rebuff four times, they save a bunch.

Consider part 5 of Shroud. Everyone dies, everyone rebuffs. How long does it take on average? 2-3 minutes. Now imagine that EVERY TIME YOU SHRINE, IN EVERY QUEST, and that's the time wasted without ship buffs.

I do agree that you should be ship buffed BEFORE you click the last spot in a group, and if you don't make it oh well. But for anyone else, waiting around for that last spot anyway, why not?

They save time in the long run. Time running for XP (about 4% for my guild) time dying and retrying a quest, time buffing in quest.

I do also think they are crazy OP at low levels though, and that could be looked into. +2 stats at level 1, with what count as IMMUNITIES (not resists) at levels 1-5, that needs to be addressed.

Still, the benefits far outweigh the costs.

grodon9999

01-23-2012, 02:15 PM

get them when I have time to, and have pots/spells etc. for when I don't.

What pot/spell gives you +1/2 DCs on spells?

What pot/spell gives melees +3 to-hit/damage?

somenewnoob

01-23-2012, 02:17 PM

What pot/spell gives you +1/2 DCs on spells?

What pot/spell gives melees +3 to-hit/damage?

None, but I can still live without them. ;)

Jsbeer

01-23-2012, 02:22 PM

Niv-mizzet

01-23-2012, 02:31 PM

I think my biggest annoyance is "brt-buffs" from GUY NUMBER FREAKING 12 IN AN EASY RAID like reaver's or shroud. Had a reaver earlier today where we had all we needed, still had a couple open spots, and I put on the LFM "going in 1 minute." Sure enough. Another cleric joins and ctrl-v's his "brt-buffs" message.

Instantly I want to strangle him. There's no way he's not carrying resist energy in one of his EXTREMELY not-valuable level 2 spell slots on a 20 cleric, while still qualifying as a sentient being. The raid itself GIVES YOU SP, so its not like THAT'S the issue. He sure as hell doesn't need +1 DC's for the random mass cures he's throwing...and yet sure enough, we step in, and we stand there and wait for mr-waste-everyone's-time to decide to finally grace us with his ship-buffed presence.

So yeah. I hate ship buffs. If I suddenly ran DDO, ships would be locked as soon as someone stepped in the quest, and anyone still on them gets /death'd.

Seriously though. Make the buffs last until death. I wish to stop having murderous intent towards guy 6 (or 12) the instant he joins.

hit_fido

01-23-2012, 02:34 PM

Introduce a 5% individual XP bonus for finishing a quest without ever having had a ship buff while inside.

Call it the "More Bravery and Less Delay" bonus.

somenewnoob

01-23-2012, 02:35 PM

Gawdzilla

01-23-2012, 02:37 PM

I agree they don't need to be longer just to not run while in public instances. XP pots, jewels of fortune and many other pots and such already run on this timer so I would have to think implementing this would not be an issue at all.

Chai

01-23-2012, 02:43 PM

Niv-mizzet

01-23-2012, 02:49 PM

Hmmm no timer perminent buffs that cannot be dispelled?

Sounds a bit overpowered to me. People already account for ship buffs in their builds which I find hilarious. If they made them one full day, might as well add completionist and 30 points to all resists, 10% heal amp, +3 to hit, etc to everyones toon.

Yeah in all honesty I wish that they would've never put the things in. But they're here. And people have them on all the time anyway, so I might as well just go for the only possible improvement and ask for them to just be permanent until death so that I can stop waiting on party members to rebuff after every 2 quests. That's the only current difference between them lasting an hour or being permanent. The fact that you have to wait for the party to get back to playing the game every 40-50 minutes.

Cendaer

01-23-2012, 02:49 PM

Ive timed this on a capped toon & a lvl 10 melee on A guild lvl guild 100 ship.

2 minutes for the capped toon (15 second dummy)

3 minutes for the lvl 10.

That being said, when filing pugs, dont bother with buffs till full, if you need to fill that is.

Let's look at a ToD, lately filling ToD's take around 15 to 20 minutes to fill.

Why arent people griping about that here?

Because it's part of the game. Deal with the fact that when using an lfm you cant control how fast you fill nor should you worry about people slowing you down to start a quest, Tod's, Shrouds are different because of the lockout timer.

This is another thread that promotes the "Easy Button" concept, so.
Your point has been posted many times, and once again I personally don't agree with it.

Airships & buffs are fine the way they are. IMO

Indeed.

If you don't like the way airships and their buffs function, the solution is simple: do not use them. DDO does not require that you be airship-buffed before entering a quest.

The problem is really not the timers on the buffs. The problem with airship buffs is that people are building their characters to require them.

If you've built your character to require airship buffs, that's your own decision. DDO has afforded you that luxury; however, IMO, asking for your easy-button to be made even more easy, is nothing more than the request of bumbling noob who doesn't know how to build a character which doesn't rely, heavily, on airship buffs.

No extended timers on airship buffs, thank you.

Urjak

01-23-2012, 02:57 PM

well there was already a thread on this some months ago ...

main reason they are in game: time sink => the more players spend their time not questing, the longer they need to grind out all their stuff, the more time turbine has to bring out new content

on a personal note: i would like to get them fixed in one of two ways:
a) (prefered choice): simply give everyone all ship buffs available every time you enter a public instance and let them last until death, also unify them into one buff icon saying shipbuffs ... this would not only give you the buffs you have on your ship but literally ALL buffs .. thus there is no need for ship invites or everyone needing to be in a very large guild to avoid being excluded from difficult content (in this case renown and ships would need to get revisited in order to provide some other benefits for high guild levels)
b) remove all ship buffs altogether ... we were able to run hard stuff before they were introduced ... we will be able to again if they get removed as well

Niv-mizzet

01-23-2012, 02:58 PM

Indeed.

If you don't like the way airships and their buffs function, the solution is simple: do not use them.

The problem is that its not you yourself using them that wastes your time. Its the **** last guy insisting that he needs them even though we're all waiting for him, or the guy who decides that he wants them and runs AWAY from the quest to go get them.

Whether or not I choose to use them, the problem still exists and still directly affects me, because others will choose to use them.

I think I'm just gonna start putting "be standing at the quest ready before applying" in my LFM's.

Rumbaar

01-23-2012, 03:02 PM

An additional time sink introduced by Turbine to extend the play time of an endless game ... shock horror!

I'm more disappointed the big hype for guild and guild related material didn't really herald anything past it's initial release.

sk3l3t0r

01-23-2012, 03:09 PM

I have found this thread interesting, people complaining about other players wasting people's time yet nobody tries to change the behaviour, instead they want the game deisgner to change the game. Yet people continue to enable this bad behaviour by not standing up and telling the other player to smarten up or be excluded. This sounds like a typical discussion I would have with one of my kids about being responsible, or having a talk with a junior team member in my team about organisational skills and preparedness.

From what I understand, these buffs are a benefit but not required. People seem to get by without them from what I have read just fine. I wouldn't know myself, I am new to the game, not in a guild, and never had the opportunity to use these things. Maybe I might need these in the future (my toon is only level 8). However, maybe I'm just weird or I value people's time and things like that...heck common courtesy seems to be extinct in this day and age.

Perosnaly speaking, when I plan on joining an event, I show up prepared, not show and delay people and waste their time.

But if I was in a situation where I was waiting for people to join my group and they started wasting time I would just not include them and start without them. In other games I have played, when we plan for events, we take 5-10 minutes up front to gear up / buff up, and off we go. We don't wait around for last minute people that show up unprepared, those people only get one chance in our group and then they get black listed. maybe it's different in DDO guilds, but when I played Runescape, the guilds I participated in we normally had the event posted well in advance of the date on a guild website with specifics like time and expected gear / buffs, etc ...

What about simple organisational skills? if you are part of a guild, I imagine there is some sort of leadership and standard practice when prepping for an event? Yes? No? I know if I was organising a raid or a questing party with fellow players that are part of a guild I am in, I would lay out the ground rules up front...make sure you have your gear, buffs, etc ... ready because we are starting at this time, if you are not ready too bad so sad for you...

Sure if you are organising a random party and nobody really knows each other, I can see one, maybe two people forgetting to do something or being rushed to catch up, that is understandable. In such a case, then lets all buff together and meet up somewhere. But at least be prepared with a contingency plan (because that's what good leaders do) in case of a worse case scenario.

In the "real world" if people are late for a business meeting and show up unprepared, the meeting starts without them (and most likely they would get reprimanded or warned). If you are getting together with your buddies to go see a movie that starts at a specific time and someone forgets their discount coupon, or a sweater, or "insert something somewhat important but could be done without item here", most likely as a friend you would help them out with extra money if they are short, or a sweater if you don't need it, etc ... You would not re-schedule or delay the meeting because of somoene who is unprepared. In the case of a group of friends going on an outing, you would cover their back and help them out, but you wouldn't be late for the outing because of something that can be mitigated.

IMO changing the game design for this is simply working around people who lack courtesy and respect for others, or to mitigate poor organisational skills.

Dcurd

01-23-2012, 03:12 PM

For those keeping score at home, airship buffs were added in Update 5

The pausing timers mechanic on hirelings and renown/xp pots wasn't added until Update 7.

This makes it somewhat reasonable to request the timers pause in public areas since you could argue the only reason they weren't designed that way in the first place is the mechanic didn't exist yet.

The only thing that would be unbalanced by pausing public buff timers are events like mabar and crystal cove. I'm not sure if anyone sees these public events as a rigorous test of combat prowess, but if they do this could be a reason against public pausing.

Extending buff duration? Not entirely reasonable. Some quests and chains can take longer than an hour already (any of you thinking 'no u' make sure you factor in less skilled parties. Just because a vet can do it, doesn't mean the average player can). The result of this would make the ship buffs gain a huge increase in power.

That would be a reasonable suggestion if the suggestors were requesting an increase in power, but they aren't. To make it reasonable they would need to justify the increase in power. Convenience is not a justification.

Tumarek

01-23-2012, 03:17 PM

I wouldnt mind seeing the ship buffs beeing dumped altogether... they waste time, trivialize lots of low level content and are there only for some people.

Make more crafting thingies, teleportation stuff, maybe more storage... stuff like that.

bigolbear

01-23-2012, 03:21 PM

Well said.

I would also advocate that ship bufs are in many ways bad for the game. Id suggest a move from what we have now to 'permanent ship bufs' -but severely limited in number - say 3 ship bufs of your choice which dont have timers, lost on death - swapable every 3 days.

StarlancePanther

01-23-2012, 03:50 PM

sephiroth1084

01-23-2012, 04:21 PM

Remove the antiquated wait time for using levers, altars and doors that aren't locked, and this problem is largely solved.
Change the ships to be a single instance, instead of two separate instances of the upper and lower deck, and you shave off more time.

countfitz

01-23-2012, 04:52 PM

Another thing (which has been said, kinda). If you REALLY get upset, send a polite tell:

"Hey, super easy run, don't worry about any buffs but the Con shrine and XP shrine, you won't need anything else."

This lets players know two things. You want them to hurry up (but are still not a d-bag, because you're fine with them getting the only beneficial shrine, the XP shrine) and CON IS NOT A DUMP STAT.

Simple as that.

If they don't listen, start the quest without them and if you can't do it alone for a few minutes then stop complaining at all.

Krell

01-23-2012, 05:01 PM

I used to see these threads about House P buffs. In general I don't think longer durations would hurt. It would be nice to run a number of quests in a row without people wanting to break for a buff refresh. I think people would still break for the sell/repair here and there but that is pretty quick. The only time I get a little agitated is when a group of sub level 10's are all taking turns on the practice dummy with no one around to toss any buffs. That is like 10 minutes sometimes.

Enoach

01-23-2012, 05:14 PM

This is a topic that has two extremes and a middle ground.

First I would like to cast my opinion on the "Ship Buffs are nice, but not needed" side

Most quests up-to level 15 rarely go over 45 minutes - Caveat is that at least one person knows the quest and the rest of the group follows the lead. Reason I point this out is that getting buffs after joining a group that is still waiting to fill will still give you ample time even if you have to wait 15 to 20 minutes.

If you are the last one to join a group or after you join, party leader states, ok lets go. Don't use the ship for anything more than a fast travel method. Next, If you don't have a ship or a GOODER ship. Don't be asking for +2 buffs when you join.

If offered buffs, be courteous and accept them during the first offer. However, do allow for those who have decided to opt out of ship buffs... They already realize that resists, etc. will be their own responsibility.

Many people have brought this up - Wait time for party to fill > waiting for ship buffs. The problem is FILL. Turbine originally created quests around the concept of a party of 4 - funny note: PnP campaigns generally targeted party make-up of 4 members, with DM guides on how to adjust for smaller or larger groups. If you make it a goal to get at least a 4 man team you can reduce your wait time. Of course the big issue being need for a primary healing type, but that is another subject.

Maybe my main point is Buffs are good, not always needed. Allow for them when needed, skip them if they cause un-needed delay, be courteous of your fellow players.

As a Party leader I allow party members time prior to leaving for the entrance. I call out, "Ok, lets meet at the quest entrance. I'm starting in 3 minutes."

ThePrisoner

01-23-2012, 06:03 PM

The last person or two to join a group can often be inconsiderate enough to make the group wait for five minutes while they buff or sell. I consider this more a failure on the part of the player. They need to hit the resists and quick buffs, leave the dummy alone, and move with a sense of urgency.

Ship buffs that last until death are certainly enticing but wouldn't make much sense for Turbine. If everyone was able to ask for an invite to an equipped airship once a week or so and be set, few would be encouraged to buy astral diamonds or upgrade their smaller guild ships. It wouldn't make much business sense and airships were clearly introduced as both a player resource and a way to increase profits.

At the same time, I understand your frustration at having to wait long periods of time for people to ship buff. If the ship buffs lasted a bit longer it might help. Mainly, however, I feel that if players were more self aware and conscientious, they would be ship buffed before they hit LFMs in the first place (not always possible, I know) or would choose their buffs carefully and move like everyone is waiting. Since they are.

HackSlashKill

01-23-2012, 06:27 PM

I am sorry. I don't understand this concept of waiting for people while the lfm fills that you people speak of. Unless it is a raid, my lfms always include two letters... IP. In Progress. So, if you want to get ship buffs, if you want to craft some ****, if you want to transfer stuff/plat through the bank, if you want to smell the roses, if you want to kill a couple of rares, if you want post in trade chat, if you want to shop through the ddo store, if you want to add an armor kit to your outfit, if you want to check your mail, if you want to get a refill, if you want to take a bio, if you want, if you want, if you want...

I am not waiting.

In fact, I have completed quests before the person has even entered. So, if you want to take your sweet ass time, it isn't while I wait.

Special thanks to Nepalm for showing me the light years ago, and teaching me how to kick ass and chew bubble gum, and I'm all out of bubblegum.

Narmolanya

01-23-2012, 06:51 PM

I am sorry. I don't understand this concept of waiting for people while the lfm fills that you people speak of. Unless it is a raid, my lfms always include two letters... IP. In Progress. So, if you want to get ship buffs, if you want to craft some ****, if you want to transfer stuff/plat through the bank, if you want to smell the roses, if you want to kill a couple of rares, if you want post in trade chat, if you want to shop through the ddo store, if you want to add an armor kit to your outfit, if you want to check your mail, if you want to get a refill, if you want to take a bio, if you want, if you want, if you want...

I am not waiting.

This is the same place I am coming from.

I don't understand why everyone is waiting for people then getting upset about it. Just let them catch up or be left in the dust.

Ashlayna

01-23-2012, 07:45 PM

This is the same place I am coming from.

I don't understand why everyone is waiting for people then getting upset about it. Just let them catch up or be left in the dust.

Then tell 'em how, after 25 consecutive runs, Muck showed up, and everyone got Muck's Bane. Too bad they were too busy to actually get in on the chest, eh?

Lithic

01-23-2012, 08:06 PM

I'd rather they eliminate the buffs completely and make airships a source of convenience items only (travel, banks, etc).

The ship buffs (especially the resists) make a lot of content a joke. At low levels, I can go in on elite and sit there afk with 3 witch doctors and safely come back 10mins later to a perfectly alive character.

At later levels, its almost as bad, as it saves people hundreds of spell points that would have been used for buffs, which means the quests are either way easier (anything before ship buffs) or were made to assume ship buffs (recent stuff).

Qhualor

01-23-2012, 08:10 PM

i really dont see the big deal in ship buffs. they are useful if you solo, help blue bars who dont need to buff element resists, they are not over the top like a 1 hour haste buff, if blue bars are stingy/low mana/not enough mana/"im not a buffbot" than at least you have something and lasts longer than pots and helps undergeared players.

what i do see a big deal with is people clicking an lfm and running to a ship portal from gianthold slayer area and taking 10 minutes just to buff. i always wait to hit the lfm when im already at least half buffed or its still going to take time to fill, but im at least near a ship portal.

if people are going to complain about ship buffs than i have a couple suggestions.

1. in your lfm say "no ship buffs"

2. in your lfm say "be at quest within 2 minutes after party fills" that way the last guy has a chance to get to the quest also.

i can see maybe lowering the ship resists to the level appropriate, but maybe be allowed to have 20 resist 2 levels below when you would normally be able to get it. same at 30 resist.

just my thoughts

Falco_Easts

01-23-2012, 09:28 PM

/Shrug. Instead of of asking Turbine to do it, party leaders start doing it yourself. Either start without them or just boot them. Eventually continually running up to empty chests or LFG will teach them not to waste others time.

EllisDee37

01-23-2012, 09:51 PM

Meh. If I'm the last join and I want my xp shrine I'll immediately say "hey all, omw, get started i'll catch up." If they wait for me it's on them, not me.

Much of the ship buff complaints sound no different to me than "in my day we walked to school, barefoot, in the snow, uphill both ways."

Leistes

01-23-2012, 10:01 PM

It happens from time to time that, in the middle of the night, I get thirsty or need to remedy the results of having previously been thirsty. Not wanting to wake up anyone else in the house and, arguably more important, not wanting to deal with a brief retinal shock, I avoid turning on any lights. Besides, its my home; I know where everything is. I can make my way to the kitchen, bathroom, etc. in the dark.

So, I make my way towards the kitchen/bathroom/wherever. Then it happens! OUCH! I stub my toe on the living room footstool, a dinning room chair, or the door frame heading into the bathroom. My instant reaction: Stupid ottoman! Dumb Chair! Effin frame!

But the truth of the matter is that it wasn't the ottoman, the chair, or the door frame. They were simply there, to be used when they need to be used and for the time that they are intended to be used. The problem was that I was a little irresponsible in getting to my destination.

What's my point? Don't blame the ottoman, chair, door frame, or ship buffs for human irresponsibility.

quijenoth

01-24-2012, 04:03 AM

Some interesting thoughts here... What I would like to see...

Add timers to Ship Buffs similar to hirelings, let people buff and hold until they actually enter a quest.

Provide higher guilds with general shrines for specific builds, 1-click-and-go for multiple buffs.

Removed Guild invites from those outside your guild but allow invites via the Portal beacons. Add bound to character portal beacons to a vendor onboard high level ships. lower level guilds can still buy in the DDO store.

Add guild passage ability to airships that lets members of your party use an airship and its navigators to travel to other zones but only as a "Passenger". As a "Passenger" they are prevented from using the guilds other Amenities.

AestorTheKnight

01-24-2012, 04:07 AM

The problem is that its not you yourself using them that wastes your time. Its the **** last guy insisting that he needs them even though we're all waiting for him, or the guy who decides that he wants them and runs AWAY from the quest to go get them.

Whether or not I choose to use them, the problem still exists and still directly affects me, because others will choose to use them.

This.

Uma-Quixote

01-24-2012, 04:44 AM

Ship buffs are handy...but no, you don't need all of them, all the time.
However, as with so many other threads, do I detect a note of inverted snobbery here?
There are a lot of people whose comments could be encapsulated as:
"I don't use ship buffs because it means my build is so much better/I am a better player than anybody who does use ship buffs- at least in my own mind"
This may or may not be true....and often it isn't.

(What I'd really like to see is a spirit binder on a ship...THAT might save time occasionally)

darthhento

01-24-2012, 04:57 AM

First thing: the whole game is a waste of time.

Second thing: being polite goes a long way. If you're the last in the group being polite goes a long way.
"Hello, thx for accepting, do I have time to get shipbuffs?"
Now this usually will let you know weather you actually need them for the quest and are others willing to wait 5 mins for you to get them. And you can always ask for resists in the quest from fellow casters if they're in a hurry, also in a polite manner. "Rezists hage fom GH DW. NOw dude!" doesn't work.

XO, Darthwolf

Ausdoerrt

01-24-2012, 05:06 AM

The problem is people don't have any courtesy for their fellow party members. You don't need every single goddam buff on the ship, yet many people go around getting them all. The ones that matter most are the resists, con, and whatever stat your class uses for damage. For any DPS class, the Dhakiri Vigor (+2 damage) is also nice. Otherwise, that's all you need.

And picking the buffs you need rather than grabbing everything is faster how? Especially if you're on someone else's ship and don't know what's where. That, and most people don't know which buffs do what. Heck, I'm still having trouble telling some of them apart, there's so many of them.

You don't need the training dummy, and that is unfortunately what many people waste most of the time on.

Dunno what you're talking about, takes my archer 7 seconds on average :p

---------------------------
As for the perma-buff (even if until death) idea, it's the quintessential "easy" button. So no.

MRH

01-24-2012, 05:15 AM

I want everyone to remember (if you were here) when there was no ships

Remember what we had to do then?

Yes , bluebars had to buff everyone up then run the quest till they found a shrine or potted...

So if your a caster or divine putting a party together with this mentality of "last guy" or people having to get ship buffs before they get to quest.... are you going to buff them all up with all resists , gh's , blurs, etc etc... and rebuff especially the quests with beholders and you have to rebuff once or more after each encounter.

Think about it..... blue bars have it so much nicer than before ships and mana conservation on your character proved the type of player you are.

Seriously put a group together and tell everyone there will be no ship buffs and everyone that has buffs will buff everyone inside the quest. Please do this for a shroud/hox/vod/tod and tell me what reaction you get.

Now lets get to the part about people putting up LFM's in progress and then being so nice to let people join , then get upset at them for having to stop and get some buffs otw to the quest. Again are you going to buff them if they don't get buffs? Didn't think so.

So everyone is in such a hurry nowadays , they spend all day or all the hours they can each day on DDO for months or years...... and they friggin can't wait few mins or 5 for someone to get to your in progress quest ? LOL

If you want to run a quest in progress, then what does it matter if they join and then say "brt ship buffs" or they go and get buffs then hit your lfm in progress...... would have been the same amount of time they were not in quest while you are solo'n or shortmanning it anyway right?
The latter you would have never known they got buffs....

If not then put up an LFM and wait till it fills before buffing or starting quest as a group like it always should be done.

Ship buffs are a great bonus to each character and helps limit the amount of spell points the blue bars have to use on party members, which enables them to have more sp's and use them to deal damage or heal. If you don't want them then make sure you buff your party members up with your own spell points.

Spoprockel

01-24-2012, 05:22 AM

As for the perma-buff (even if until death) idea, it's the quintessential "easy" button. So no.

Why would you consider a way to save the whole party a lot of time outside of a quest an "easy-button"?

There is no challenge, no chance to fail, no fun in running around a ship grabbing buffs.

It's not making it any easier to get them because it isn't hard to get them in the first place. It just wastes peoples time.

Would you call the phiarlan pendant of time an easy button too because it makes it "easier" to travel through public areas?

Faster/permanent ship buffs =/= easy button.

Forzah

01-24-2012, 06:02 AM

Introduce a 5% individual XP bonus for finishing a quest without ever having had a ship buff while inside.

Call it the "More Bravery and Less Delay" bonus.

Hmm; 5% gives too little over people that grab an exp shrine from the ship, but I like this idea! A 10% bonus for not having shipbuffs would be ideal.

huffandpuff

01-24-2012, 06:34 AM

usualy people try to improve their charcter in anyway available to them, be it gear\buffs\multiclass\whatever
fact: improving ur toon takes time (i think we can all agree to that).
tell me where else i can get the same +2 ''stat'' bonus that i can get from ship buffs?
does it come from a pot\clicky\gear?
i'de love +2 damage buff that lasts an hour that stacks with anything else to improve my dps, where can i farm it?

seriously, people farm out epic gear untill their eyes bleed waiting for that shard\seal\scroll just to get a +3% increase in dps\hp\saves or something... why berate someone who wants to be more effective at what they do?
sure, its not NEEDED, but so is a +5 holy burst GEOB weapon: u can easily make due with a +1 flametouched metaline one for any and all content...

FengXian

01-24-2012, 06:43 AM

/signed make them permanent and just lost on death or 6hrs or something, huge waste of time and everyone takes them every time anyway (including myself, unless I'm the last to join etc...).

MaximusParthas

01-24-2012, 06:57 AM

This is definitely NOT a new conversation (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=353565).
At some point the math has to come into play. How much time is simply wasted over a month long period per person?

Bimbelbo

01-24-2012, 07:52 AM

I totally agree with the OP. What annoys me the most, 5 people waiting at quest entrance, 6th man joins party and writes: "Hi, ship buffs and omw" -.-

Ashlayna

01-24-2012, 08:17 AM

I totally agree with the OP. What annoys me the most, 5 people waiting at quest entrance, 6th man joins party and writes: "Hi, ship buffs and omw" -.-

To which you can reply, sorry, got another guy that's standing right here that needs to do it too, see ya' later, and boot. Ship buffs are a luxury, and if I'm looking to join an LFM, and had ship buffs, I'd get them before joining. Why would I think that somebody wants to wait longer for me in addition to what they already waited to fill?

Ungood

01-24-2012, 08:17 AM

Wow.

Turbine puts in this awesome benefit for us. We can get buffs no matter what class we are, 30 resists, +2 Stats, Extra Melee Damage, Higher DC's, Healing Amp and so much more.

Not only can we get these game augmenting buffs, we can once on the ship, travel to many locations to make getting from where we are to where we need to be, just that much faster.

These buffs last a full hour, as opposed to the blue bar dumping their spell points into 15 min buffs, and, they can't be dispelled which is totally awesome against mobs like beholders.

So we have these amazing augments at out disposal, to make running the quest that much easier and people have the audacity to complain about them?

Now, if the people who have an issue are that much a zerger that 5 mins means that much to them, then I would expect that one shot of ship buffs they should be able to run the quest 10 time, Oh,, wait.. we had to wait 5 min for the last guy to get here, we can only run this quest 9 times in quick succession now, the horror.

If this is about raids, we waited a half hour for it to fill (maybe longer) I think we can wait 5 min more for the last person to get here augmented to their best abilities and ready to fight, we would have waited that long for them to get here anyway, as they ran from zone to zone to get to the quest, now they hit the ship, grab buffs and hit the zone of the quest in almost the same amount of time.

Astraghal

01-24-2012, 09:04 AM

MartinusWyllt

01-24-2012, 09:13 AM

"I don't use ship buffs because it means my build is so much better/I am a better player than anybody who does use ship buffs- at least in my own mind"

No, what they're saying is "We did just fine before ship buffs came along so we don't need to waste time waiting for you to get ship buffs." This is far less "elitist".

As for myself if I'm going to get ship buffs I get them before clicking on a LFM. If the LFM I was interested in disappears before I'm ready then at least I wasn't slowing anyone else down.
I don't get particularly annoyed with people going for buffs, either, though.

herzkos

01-24-2012, 09:21 AM

Crazeee

01-24-2012, 09:38 AM

The reason why ship buffs run out and have to get refreshed, is the very same reason why you have to run raids 10000 times, is the very same reason why crafting takes so long, is the very same reason why you have to run long distances to get from A to B to C back to A, is the very same reason why you have to..... to generate game time!

sk3l3t0r

01-24-2012, 09:41 AM

I enjoy having the facility to ship buff being in a Guild that has a big enough ship to offer about 10 different buffs.

Agreed it can take a time to collect them all especially if the ship is multidecked but..

My suggestion is this:

Leave the anchor points unchanged with the buff stations on them but have a master station at point you enter the ship that you click once and all buffs that are on the existing achor points are applied at once.

Probably using a mass spell mechanic similar to mass resists or mass protects and that way you get everything at once, if you dont need it then thats fine. If you want to run around and single buff at each anchor point thats fine too.

Im sure if this was implemented then all you would do is board ship, buff mass then leave ship and go questing in no time :)

That way not having adjust timers, not having to wait the 5-10 minutes for someone to buff and allows the players to concentrate on doing the quests.

now that would be a good re-design and encourage teamwork :) seems in line with what you would exepct from a guild !!

EDIT: adding more detail...

i look at it this way, centralise the buffs (as mentionned), get your group to stand in the local area (mass spell effect)... voila, buffs applied to party, everyone on the same timer, everyone starts the quesst together.

I agree with previous posters stating facts about generating game time, so being able to generate more game time would be to increase the enjoyment of the game, not encourage grinding.

If people enjoy the game more and have better gaming experiences in guilds and group activities, you will have more groups that play together and generate said game time. Encouraging people to grind is like over-working your employees, you generate injuries, absences and over-worked, stressed out people who give you mediocre results majority of the time. People don't play games to grind without end if there is no enjoyment in their time sinks. Make the time sinks more enjoyable, even at the cost of reducing the time it takes of completing certain activities and you will in the long run end up getting more generated game time out of your gamers and a more satisfied customer who is bound to extend their subscription or purchasse more TPs

It still doesn't address the abuse and grief we give each other, but at least as a community it will give us one less thing to complain about and be critical about each other's behaviour and the value they place on our time.

Ashlayna

01-24-2012, 10:06 AM

The best thing ship buffs achieved was making sure players had basic resists, which mitigate a ton of damage. I find that you can't rely on players to attend to their own buffs, so if everyone gets at least the resists, it saves a ton of SP in passing them, healing unmitigated damage, or raising dead players. On my Bard I tend to just pass out GH, Blur and FoM after each shrine. Add ship buffs, Deathward and Magic Circle against Evil and the group is almost invincible from common attacks.

Edit - The game difficulty has increased since airships were introduced as well, so ship buffs are more relevant now.

Although they are still largely not required. My arti (http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/termina/) just ran all of the Red Fens quest line yesterday, on Hard, with a cleric hireling. I don't even have a guild ship yet, let alone ship buffs. I also didn't build it to rely on getting max level ship buffs. If I posted a screenshot of it's stats, you'd be able to see the top of the screen, instead of a line of buffs, because I built it, am building it, to be self reliant. Note that I had to do Last Stand twice, as I failed it the first time.

So, since I can, and do run at level content w/out having to have outside buffs, I don't see the need to either wait for somebody else to pick them up, or to cause somebody else to wait for me to get them. They are a luxury, and as such, are nice, but they are far from required to be successful.

Miow

01-24-2012, 10:26 AM

I always grab buffs before joining a group...problem solved.

Norean

01-24-2012, 10:30 AM

noneill

01-24-2012, 10:59 AM

I think the timer should pause when you are in public areas, just like hirelings, jewels etc. That would cure 90% of the wait time issues without getting any more advantage in quests. You could buff when you log in and then find a group.

Raithe

01-24-2012, 11:10 AM

If you guys don't like wasting time then why do you play video games? What do you think is happening to your time when you're beating up a virtual orc with your virtual stick? If you don't want to waste your time then turn off your games and write a book or invent something or do something else that contributes to society.

Wasting time is a relative analysis, not an absolute. For people who value the resources of a rain forest, cutting a wide swath through it is not wasting time. For people who value the natural aspects of the rain forest, cutting a wide swath through it is worse than wasting time. For some people, getting to fight virtual critters may not be wasting time at all. It may be exactly what they want to do in this life. For other people like myself, problem solving and complex analysis of complex systems is precisely what I want to be doing with my life.

This has been said but I would like to reiterate. Ship buffs save the sp of the casters in the party. Or, if the casters don't want to buff you, then it saves you plat that would be spent replacing the potions you quaff instead.

Ship buffs have done nothing to save my casters spell points. If a resist is highly beneficial to a quest, I pass it around even if the spell doesn't take due to ship buffs - I'm not about to sort through everyone's examine window checking to see whether they have the useful buff. If buffs/resists are not that essential, I generally just pass jump and gh, both of which have no corresponding ship buff (jump to those classes I know don't have the spell). Displacement after I see who is taking damage or if we are facing teleporting mobs.

Many casters are still over-buffing, even with ship buffs.

The real problem, as Lithic commented earlier, is that the buffs are not graduated based on level. The lowbie game of DDO is utterly destroyed, due to buffs, massive amounts of sp, and a playerbase mostly focused on grinding to get to their next TR.

Templarion

01-24-2012, 11:35 AM

-Perma until death.

-Autobuff every time you enter a quest or raid.

-6 hour timer

-all buffs from 1 vendor

-just hang in the ship X mins to get all buffs

-remote buffer (takes 1 inventory slot, X charges, can be used to anyone, grants all buffs)

There are so much better options. Some of them are faster to implement than others. But even the quickest one to do (6 hour timer) would be better than nothing.

Norean

01-24-2012, 11:41 AM

Wasting time is a relative analysis, not an absolute. For people who value the resources of a rain forest, cutting a wide swath through it is not wasting time. For people who value the natural aspects of the rain forest, cutting a wide swath through it is worse than wasting time. For some people, getting to fight virtual critters may not be wasting time at all. It may be exactly what they want to do in this life. For other people like myself, problem solving and complex analysis of complex systems is precisely what I want to be doing with my life.

Ship buffs have done nothing to save my casters spell points. If a resist is highly beneficial to a quest, I pass it around even if the spell doesn't take due to ship buffs - I'm not about to sort through everyone's examine window checking to see whether they have the useful buff. If buffs/resists are not that essential, I generally just pass jump and gh, both of which have no corresponding ship buff (jump to those classes I know don't have the spell). Displacement after I see who is taking damage or if we are facing teleporting mobs.

Many casters are still over-buffing, even with ship buffs.

The real problem, as Lithic commented earlier, is that the buffs are not graduated based on level. The lowbie game of DDO is utterly destroyed, due to buffs, massive amounts of sp, and a playerbase mostly focused on grinding to get to their next TR.

First of all, tree hugging hippies are a waste of time, space, and everything else and that's an absolute, not a relative. Secondly gathering resources from the rain forest isn't comparable to shadow humping a kobold. You're actually producing something when you're cutting that swath. (Although both acts technically do involve wood...).

There's a magical way to determine who does and doesn't have ship buffs that doesn't involve examining all the party members one by one. It's a spell, like hocus pocus, that I'm going to teach you now. Now repeat after me, "Who needs buffs?".

Raithe

01-24-2012, 12:10 PM

First of all, tree hugging hippies are a waste of time, space, and everything else and that's an absolute, not a relative.

I am quite certain that you yourself are a tree-hugger. If all the trees on the planet were to disappear overnight, you would be dead in a matter of weeks. If someone were to cut the tree in your yard down right after you hung a swing and built a treehouse, you would be at least mildly irritated. The hypocrisy seems to be that you are fine with trees being cut down when someone else has to take the brunt of the damage. It seems to reek somewhat of relativity.

There's a magical way to determine who does and doesn't have ship buffs that doesn't involve examining all the party members one by one. It's a spell, like hocus pocus, that I'm going to teach you now. Now repeat after me, "Who needs buffs?".

This made me laugh. If you understood the nature of my gameplay, you would laugh too. I could examine everyone's buffs and pass out only the efficient spells if it mattered at all, and it would be much, MUCH faster than actually asking and waiting for a reply. Plus, it would change the topic of conversation.

See, for many people the name of the game is enjoyment, entertainment, and FUN. It's not an ego-boosting competition to prove our worth. Basically there are only two modes of gameplay for me - questing and conversation. Ship buffs do not interfere with either, because if I'm questing I'm hardly going to wait very long for any particular groupmate to overbuff, and if I'm conversing the distance separation doesn't seem to impact the chat window much.

There is this thing call dungeon scaling that seems to be working in most every quest except epic non-challenges, which are already a colossal waste for just about everyone since the inclusion of epic challenges that are truly entertaining.

Norean

01-24-2012, 12:14 PM

I am quite certain that you yourself are a tree-hugger. If all the trees on the planet were to disappear overnight, you would be dead in a matter of weeks. If someone were to cut the tree in your yard down right after you hung a swing and built a treehouse, you would be at least mildly irritated. The hypocrisy seems to be that you are fine with trees being cut down when someone else has to take the brunt of the damage. It seems to reek somewhat of relativity.

This made me laugh. If you understood the nature of my gameplay, you would laugh too. I could examine everyone's buffs and pass out only the efficient spells if it mattered at all, and it would be much, MUCH faster than actually asking and waiting for a reply. Plus, it would change the topic of conversation.

See, for many people the name of the game is enjoyment, entertainment, and FUN. It's not an ego-boosting competition to prove our worth. Basically there are only two modes of gameplay for me - questing and conversation. Ship buffs do not interfere with either, because if I'm questing I'm hardly going to wait very long for any particular groupmate to overbuff, and if I'm conversing the distance separation doesn't seem to impact the chat window much.

There is this thing call dungeon scaling that seems to be working in most every quest except epic non-challenges, which are already a colossal waste for just about everyone since the inclusion of epic challenges that are truly entertaining.

You think I was serious about my crack about tree huggers? Oh well. I was just trying to suggest a better way to check who needs buffs other than checking each member individually. If you can't be bothered to ask then so be it.

Qhualor

01-24-2012, 12:28 PM

thing is, people in general are in too much of a hurry to get quests done. "only 150k till cap! zzzeeerrg!!" before there were airships, all people really cared about mostly was the basic buffs. a lot of people didnt have the patience to wait for any "extra" buffages. you better believe though that people stood around for 5 minutes asking the caster for gh, blure and hage and wouldnt move until they got it or complained not getting it the rest of the quest. nobody REALLY needs buffs. its just helpful and can be a mana saver. if you dont want to wait around for people getting ship buffs, party buffs or anything along those lines, than i suggest saying that in your lfms. i, for 1, like my buffs and the more i have the better i can be in a quest and maybe in the long run, not be such a mana drain. my toon can do just fine without them, but i still like them and will still get them, but i wont hold up the party and i wont be the whiner asking and insisting on buffs constantly.

Domfig

01-24-2012, 12:32 PM

Getting shipbuffs falls under player courtesy the same as with 'shrplz' in my mind. I don't pug a lot because I have a good static group but when I do I tend to
1) Check lfm panel.
2) See quest I fancy doing.
3) Get buffs.
4) Make sure I have quest/flagging or that giver is next to entrance.
5) Apply to lfm.
6) If lfm filled by that stage I might put up my own lfm or repeat 1,2,4 and 5 for
different quest .

Yes the buffs are 'ticking' but I have never had them run out before entering a quest and mostly they will last for most of it.

Ausdoerrt

01-24-2012, 12:50 PM

Why would you consider a way to save the whole party a lot of time outside of a quest an "easy-button"?

There is no challenge, no chance to fail, no fun in running around a ship grabbing buffs.

It's not making it any easier to get them because it isn't hard to get them in the first place. It just wastes peoples time.

Would you call the phiarlan pendant of time an easy button too because it makes it "easier" to travel through public areas?

Faster/permanent ship buffs =/= easy button.

1) There are certain quests/raids which can take over an hour to complete. It's a nice reminder for those over-reliant on ship buffs. So no, it's not a simple matter of convenience.

2) It is debatable whether the perceived amount of time ship buffs waste is equivalent to the actual time difference. For example, it's faster to grab resists on a ship than to cast them all in-quest (or, God forbid, as someone to pass). Having ship-buffs will also likely save more completion time than the two minutes it took to get them.

Finally, from a purely aesthetic perspective, having buffs auto-cast and be permanent would remove the feeling of "buffs" from them. They might as well just give all characters a permanent +2 to all stats.

Fenin

01-24-2012, 01:59 PM

I can see the sense in the current buff process set-up if we were all on the monthly sub billing plan model. It's a time sink that would extend play. Some guy in a WB Business Unit could point on a graph to the extra cash due to all the extra hours played by the player base. But on a store model plan you'd think that WB would be incentivized to remove all time sinks and get you into the game so you're spending money.

Visit ship, automatically pick up buffs seems like the way to go. I agree keeping the hook points and current method for slotting and changing those is fine.

Similarly, more travel options seems like a no brainer. How game breaking would it be if any teleporter/planescaller/etc could send you to any location? I'm fine with starting with a limited list and then earning (through favor, guild renown or whatever) the ability to unlock locations. At least for the love of God, can we please move the Sahuagin Guide inside the Reaver's Refuge? After the first time or two getting the Fly Spell cast on you loses it's luster. And only slightly less useless is that guy in Merida (at least he's easy to get to).

AestorTheKnight

01-25-2012, 01:09 AM

A lot of posts and a lot of Waffle.

The Fact remains - Going to the Ship to get Ship Buffs wastes 5 minutes of someones time every hour. Its stupid and pointless and I think it should be changed.

6 Hour timer on Ship Buffs would be awsome!

Spoprockel

01-25-2012, 01:47 AM

1) There are certain quests/raids which can take over an hour to complete. It's a nice reminder for those over-reliant on ship buffs. So no, it's not a simple matter of convenience.

2) It is debatable whether the perceived amount of time ship buffs waste is equivalent to the actual time difference. For example, it's faster to grab resists on a ship than to cast them all in-quest (or, God forbid, as someone to pass). Having ship-buffs will also likely save more completion time than the two minutes it took to get them.

Finally, from a purely aesthetic perspective, having buffs auto-cast and be permanent would remove the feeling of "buffs" from them. They might as well just give all characters a permanent +2 to all stats.

Alright, to not make them overpowered in these certain quests/raids, leave them at one hour. Just stop the timer in public.

I don't think there's many quests that require all four resists, and if that's the case there will be more than one caster to pass them out on the run.
If it's a tough quest/raid i'm happy to wait a few minutes for people to grab undispellable resists.
But people usually don't just grab the resists, they grab everything once they made it to a large ship.
Even if they don't need half of the buffs for the current quest or at all.

I don't care about the "feeling of buffs", but i do care about people joining the last spot in an lfm and making 11 other people wait 10 minutes because they think their 8str cleric needs the training dummy to run a normal shroud.

Ugumagre

01-25-2012, 01:49 AM

A MMORPG is about time sink, immersion, and balanced rules.

Some weeks ago, somebody asked the possibility to enter a quest without having to run to X point, as it was a waste of time.
There are some people complaining about flagging, and the raid timers. I can also remember an amazing post, as somebody complained about the ransack system.
Every two weeks we have some post complaining about the cannith crafting grind, it takes to long, it should have donowhat button to make it faster.

I think the developers were thinking as they programmed the Dummy to have XXX hitpoints, so that a lvl 5 fighter would need one minute or two to beat it down. Why haven´t they done it like a shrine? You click on it and you get the buff. I think the developers try somehow to make it look like a world with their own rules, and that the guildship feels like a guild ship, and not like a buff machine: click on ship, get all buffs.

There is a saying: Time is a present from the gods. Give it away generously. When I play DDO I take my time, I speak with my friends, and I have my fun.
I don´t see the need to make some strange changes, that directly contradict the intern world rules, just to satisfy some impatient people, or some power players, or zergers.

huffandpuff

01-25-2012, 02:23 AM

having it permanent untill death is too much IMO, like someone mentioned, some quests last more than an hour (lob\ma slayer areas anyone?), which mke people recall out and rebuff or just go without for the quest itself.
now i dont think that's good game design, but my point is there ARE long quests in which those buffs run out.

idealy, having them pause in public area is what i would want most.
or as an idea: if ur in a guild then u get those buffs for X time more then if u invite someone (2 hours instead of 1)
that would let anyone have them with an invite, but if ur a member of the guild u get a perk (+time on ur OWN buffs)
this will encourage people to start\join a guild = more DoLaRzz for turbine!

SSFWEl

01-25-2012, 02:35 AM

Seriously, DDO is way better than some other MMO's in terms of distance to quests. There is nothing in DDO that will take you more than 5, maybe max 7, min to get to, from any point. Many quest givers and quest entrances are right next to each other.

Wilderness areas are a pita sometimes, and getting to some of the quests in them are painful - the size of Sands and Orchard can be downsized for instance - but even those are not horrendous.

Anyone who played say the now defunct Star Wars Galaxies, can tell you a thing or two about how long it takes to get to a quest / mission. Say 10-20 min real time.

The reason why ship buffs run out and have to get refreshed, is the very same reason why you have to run raids 10000 times, is the very same reason why crafting takes so long, is the very same reason why you have to run long distances to get from A to B to C back to A, is the very same reason why you have to..... to generate game time!

Norean

01-25-2012, 03:13 AM

I think the best idea I've seen so far in this thread is to make ship buffs pause while in public areas. I /sign that idea. Also sorry if I was a jerk earlier in this thread. I'm sick and grumpy.

Astraghal

01-25-2012, 04:40 AM

Although they are still largely not required. My arti (http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/termina/) just ran all of the Red Fens quest line yesterday, on Hard, with a cleric hireling. I don't even have a guild ship yet, let alone ship buffs. I also didn't build it to rely on getting max level ship buffs. If I posted a screenshot of it's stats, you'd be able to see the top of the screen, instead of a line of buffs, because I built it, am building it, to be self reliant. Note that I had to do Last Stand twice, as I failed it the first time.

So, since I can, and do run at level content w/out having to have outside buffs, I don't see the need to either wait for somebody else to pick them up, or to cause somebody else to wait for me to get them. They are a luxury, and as such, are nice, but they are far from required to be successful.

That's nice, I solo'd the whole fens chain on elite at level 5 on my Fighter. What I post is usually relevant in the context of epics or raids. I just assume everything else is too easy to bother discussing. Have you faced any difficult content in DDO yet?

Ugumagre

01-25-2012, 04:59 AM

That's nice, I solo'd the whole fens chain on elite at level 5 on my Fighter. What I post is usually relevant in the context of epics or raids. I just assume everything else is too easy to bother discussing. Have you faced any difficult content in DDO yet?

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/wimpow/Humor/topper1.jpg

Narmolanya

01-25-2012, 05:43 AM

Then tell 'em how, after 25 consecutive runs, Muck showed up, and everyone got Muck's Bane. Too bad they were too busy to actually get in on the chest, eh?

By the time you get to Muck the quest is basicly done. What took that individual so long to get there?

Are you suggesting it's better to waste 5 people's time because one person decides they need ship buffs for a level two quest?

I have nothing against waiting for everyone to arrive before the quest starts and will abide by the group leaders decision. If the quest is listed in progress and someone joins it when they are going to be 5 minutes or more before the get there is just not a smart move.

All I ment to say in my post you responded to is if someone has a problem waiting then the simple solution is to not wait.

silvermesh

01-25-2012, 06:22 AM

While I feel the pain of waiting for some yahoo to buff when he just joined and everyone else has been waiting at the entrance for several minutes, the real issue may just be the leader who decided we should wait for him. If you are running content where you think that guy didn't need the buffs, why were you waiting for him in the first place?
Be a leader, start the quest, run the content. if he makes it in time for completion, great for him.

Getting into a group of fully buffed TRs in the harbor is like playing DDO on crack. it will be all you can do to follow them from quest to quest and make it to the end by the time they complete. This is the situation where it's really worth the wait for the buffs because the downtime is worth the time it shaves off those completions. It's not that these guys(or anyone) needs the buffs, it's that it really speeds up completions, and the faster you go the more completions you can squeeze in before rebuffing.

As for the attitude that you need to fix the players, not the mechanic? yeah good luck with that one. I'm not here to be a parent, nagging spouse, or angry boss, I'm here to play a game. Giving someone a rant about how they play said game is more likely to get them to drop group than change their behavior. You can give hints here and there, but someone raised on those buffs is gonna want those buffs regardless. The only real solution to that is to never PUG, which some of us have the freedom to do, and to others this simply means always playing solo(which while doable isn't as fun). I don't have a ship with buffs, but in my experience you join a group and most of the time if one guy wants to buff, just about everyone in group wants buffs, and whoever has the nicest ship invites everyone on board before the questing begins. I used to just stand by the quest entrance and wait for everyone else, but i figured I might as well join in if they're handing out invites.
It really is one of those things you just deal with. any number of things could fix the mechanic. my idea is to just make the ship have an aura that hits you when you step on board. every buff station is just there for looks, they augment the aura. hit the boat you get all the buffs on board. its not really gonna change much in the ways of how long it takes(more of the time wasted is running back and forth to the boat in my experience), but at least it consolidates on ship time to next to nothing.

Denegrator

01-25-2012, 06:25 AM

I never use the ship buffs, I see them as unecessary fluff. I do really like the fact you can have crafting and banking etc. on them though, kudos for that. I guess I'm just too stubborn and grumpy to change how I play. And I agree with the OP, waiting around is a pain in the backside.

Dartwick

01-25-2012, 07:05 AM

Ship buffs are wasting way to much time for groups and ultimately making the game less fun.

Its not a problem to buff yourself when yo log on. But it is a problem when you consistantly need to wait for other players to buff.

Bad game design.

Machination

01-25-2012, 07:11 AM

The resources to execute/complete a quest would be:

1. time
2. pots, scrolls, wands
3. clickies
4. blue bars

The resources to prepare for a quest would be:

1. time
a. to purchase resources needed
b. ship buff
b. clear inventory
c. get niche items needed for quest from bank
d. get quests from NPC, travel in public areas
e. LFM and assemble party
f. read up on quest if you know know it
g. re-familiarize with quest if you have not done it in a while
h. explain quest to party members who don't know it
i. swap spells
j. etc.etc.
2. plat (to buy pots, scrolls, wands, [and clickies if you don't have them])

Now whether or not taking the time to ship buff saves resources during the preparation vs. during a quest depends upon the quest and the party. And what ship buffs are actually required for a quest are subject to all sorts of variables such as player style, player build, equipment at hand, party make up, experience with the quest, strategy for the quest, etc.

Now, if it is a quest one knows well, and you know there is no acid damage, skip the acid shrine. But if there is any question at all, considering the current game norm is to not pass out acid resistance, hit the acid shrine. This applies to any and all buffs.

But, on the other hand, if a player joins the party and wants to ship buff, that extra 30 seconds to hit EVERY shrine as oppossed to just 30% of the buffs, is acceptable to me because it will probably save quest execution time (and potential xp from deaths, failure, etc.)

My only single requested change on shrines is.....MAKE JUST ONE SHRINE THAT GIVES ALL SHIP BUFFS.....but that probably won't happen because the system at present is designed to slow down the process of leveling unless you know exactly what you are doing;)

Ugumagre

01-25-2012, 07:21 AM

UnderwearModel

01-25-2012, 07:26 AM

Why is it only players with guild ships that can have access to ship buffs get rewarded with permanent buffing?

Some players are not in guilds.
Some players can do the quests without ship buffs.
Some players can do raids without ship buffs.

Where is the reward for those players? Shouldn't players that don't waste other peoples time be rewarded for their courteousness to not waste other players time?

Dartwick

01-25-2012, 07:41 AM

Ashlayna

01-25-2012, 09:31 AM

They are called guild rewards you know?

Yep, and if a guild is big enough to have 'em, they should certainly be able to use 'em. However, if they want to join an IP LFM, and then go use 'em, they shouldn't come here whining about either being kicked, or the party finishing before they got done beating up the dummy. I don't particularly have anything against ship buffs, per se, just inconsiderate people, or people that figure their time is worth more than my time, simply because their guild is bigger. Hey, I'm in a guild, it has 5 people in it. The problem is, all 5 people are me, and I don't dual box, so all 14 levels have been added by me. My lvl 20 guild ship is paid for, just grinding out the levels, and once I get 'em, buffs won't be the priority. However, the shortcuts, and discount hirelings, you know, things that nonguild/lower level guilds don't have access to, will still be perks, and the main reason I wanted a ship in the first place. It's the only thing I miss about being in a higher level guild, and frankly, I can fix it On My Own.

Astraghal

01-25-2012, 09:37 AM

My lvl 20 guild ship is paid for, just grinding out the levels, and once I get 'em, buffs won't be the priority. However, the shortcuts, and discount hirelings, you know, things that nonguild/lower level guilds don't have access to, will still be perks, and the main reason I wanted a ship in the first place.

I think most players who log on mainly for raids and epics see ship buffs as tools that exist to be used as a means to an end, rather than perks or a reward.

Astraghal

01-25-2012, 09:39 AM

double post

Ashlayna

01-25-2012, 10:59 AM

That's nice, I solo'd the whole fens chain on elite at level 5 on my Fighter. What I post is usually relevant in the context of epics or raids. I just assume everything else is too easy to bother discussing. Have you faced any difficult content in DDO yet?

I skipped this post initially because my reply was too snarky. However, now that I've had some coffee, and a bit of perspective; so what you're saying is, you took your first life fighter, with gear you found on the way to lvl 5, and completed lvl 10+ content solo. I knew all those posts about melee needing help were just "QQ, I can't nuke like an Arcane", because evidently, since Fens quests are lvl 10 on Hard, and you can run a first lifer through there on found gear on Elite, which is prob what, lvl 12, there's no way melee needs any help.

Of course, if what you're saying is you took a second or third life 34+ point base build, with all the guild ship buffs a high level guild will provide, and all the gear that comes with it, then why did you even bother to post? Because frankly, if you're not doing this on a first life toon, with no perks of either a high level guild, or past lives worth of gear to pass, you're comparing apples to oranges. I, at least, provided proof of my accomplishments, not just I said so.

zwiebelring

01-25-2012, 11:16 AM

Yep, and if a guild is big enough to have 'em, they should certainly be able to use 'em. However, if they want to join an IP LFM, and then go use 'em, they shouldn't come here whining about either being kicked, or the party finishing before they got done beating up the dummy. I don't particularly have anything against ship buffs, per se, just inconsiderate people, or people that figure their time is worth more than my time, simply because their guild is bigger. Hey, I'm in a guild, it has 5 people in it. The problem is, all 5 people are me, and I don't dual box, so all 14 levels have been added by me. My lvl 20 guild ship is paid for, just grinding out the levels, and once I get 'em, buffs won't be the priority. However, the shortcuts, and discount hirelings, you know, things that nonguild/lower level guilds don't have access to, will still be perks, and the main reason I wanted a ship in the first place. It's the only thing I miss about being in a higher level guild, and frankly, I can fix it On My Own.

This is contradictionary. At least to me. If I post an IP LFM I give a tiny rats arse about the people who join, I just proceed. They may enter or may not, who cares? It is their time not mine they are wasting, the dungeon scaling doesn't even adapt as long as they are outside. Again, why would someone care while being in progress? If I am nice, I wait till someone enters before i open chests but in general, why would I kick somebody who knows I am progressing and he might get or might not get latecomer penalty as well as less chests? Why would he waste my time?

People who accept others and then kick them because of elitist reasons which were not clear by the LFM in advance are the only people wasting other people's time ;).

Emili

01-25-2012, 02:15 PM

I think most players who log on mainly for raids and epics see ship buffs as tools to be used as a means to an end, rather than perks or a reward.

Pretty much so... to buff an entire raid party is costly in mana...

Fact being quests like Epic Lob being a pain in the arse to get to and await people to "rebuff" has most our guild thinking send those wishing to rebuff as we get half-ways sdown to the quest.

Do shipbuffs matter? Let's see... undispellable (well unless ya died), mana effiecient, yes saves a ton of SP for casters who typically get pinched into doing so... +2 to most stats are the difference between getting something done or not ... like a wail DC +1 makes a difference between the spell being useful... a single +1 in save is the difference between a trapbox or not, and 30 resists are 30 less hp need healed on every spell of those types comming in.

Tight questing ... where the difficulty matches or exceed the character's capabilities at the party's pace is where ship-buffing shows to prove viable.

TR's all TR's love the 5% xp shrine ... can't say I blame anyone on multiple lives for wanting it... brings me to wonder... You see non-buffed toons move thru content "Slower"... more healing, buffing and squabling inside the quest otherwise... i.e. the pm... /t "Hey can you hit me with a fire resist?" /r "well sure but gee four others asking the same ya takin' up my bleedin time and my xp buff timer. Done told ya while I was on ship to come get them."