The Spirit Trade and Turbine's Walk of Shame

[maddmatt70]

I enjoy the Lord of Blades quite a bit and lead and run a fair number of those raids a week. I am getting really really tired of the continued lack of Turbine response to current bugs which are hurting me and other players following the rules. I led two pug lord of blades yesterday and several spirits dropped. In one of the raids I pulled an air spirit which I eventually put up for roll on one of my healer's because I could not use it on that specific character, but not before asking if I could trade it for the raid party wizard's fire spirit. That wizard looted his/her fire spirit and then when I put up for roll the spirit I had pulled rolled on that spirit. The wizard did not win the roll thankfully. That wizard will get banned from any future runs I lead. If Turbine can not enforce its own rules well I guess I will have to try to.

What is even more sad is despite 12 or so spirits dropping on the two runs combined no other spirits were put up for roll. My guildy commented after the run with the wizard that likely half the players who looted spirits were trading/selling them and not even keeping them. I am tired of honest players being penalized. I am sick of Turbine's lack of response. Yeah Forgotten Realms, new ehancements, epic levels, etc. is great, but what about your players right now who are getting hurt because you can not do something. Why should I lead pug raids? I led a flawless raid, nobody drank pots, I tanked the LOB on my FVS for godsake. Why the heck should I be getting penalized for being honest and following the rules and giving other players a chance to join a LOB raid and then executing it flawlessly?

[Kmnh]

At this point, Turbine would be better off calling the whole thing a feature. If you think you are being penalized now, look again when they "fix" it and the bar for a good character is much higher.

Remember: The "bar" isn't about getting in groups, it's about getting to play your character as you want to. Your tank will always be DPS instead, your caster will be kiting trash while the "real" one does CC, and so on.

[Muspellsheimr]

This has been discussed before. The simple answer is - their loot. I don't give a **** what you think you may be entitled to; if it doesn't drop in your name, you don't have any claim to it whatsoever.

Putting an item up for roll is a player being generous with something they may not need, and you have no real way of knowing what other players are doing with their loot.

Final note - I have not used the current expoit (have had no reason to), but I fully support it. The Bound mechanic, in my opinion, simply should not exist. I have never seen it help a game, and the best games I have played are those without it. Put simply, it should be removed; the only reason to have it in this game is an excessive importance placed on a character's equipment (meaning gear is to much of a factor in a character's effectiveness) and generating grind - neither of which are good.

[gloopygloop]

Didn't you already post this same thread about a month ago?

[RedDragonScale]

Didn't you already post this same thread about a month ago?

Yeah, he did.

[Lux-Aeterna]

This exact thread shows up again, and again, and again.

The issue here has nothing to do with any exploit, bug, or oversight on Turbine's part.

The issue here is yet another person who thinks they have a right to what drops in someone else's name.

You don't. No matter how nice you think you are by leading raids and giving away your items, you still have no right to anything that drops in anyone else's name.

I also have no idea how anyone could make the connection between a wizard rolling on an air spirit and exploiting. Do Wizards not use lightning spells?

(Edit) Also, I do not think you know what the word "penalized" means. Please look it up.

[maddmatt70]

This exact thread shows up again, and again, and again.

The issue here has nothing to do with any exploit, bug, or oversight on Turbine's part.

The issue here is yet another person who thinks they have a right to what drops in someone else's name.

You don't. No matter how nice you think you are by leading raids and giving away your items, you still have no right to anything that drops in anyone else's name.

I also have no idea how anyone could make the connection between a wizard rolling on an air spirit and exploiting. Do Wizards not use lightning spells?

.

The same thing happened in the set of lord of blades raids I ran before this one. There was an artificer who pulled a 2nd tier air instead of putting it up for roll. The doublestrike does not work with ranged on 2nd tier air, the lightning strike effect occurs on Toven's hammmer which is the best runearm in the game so this second tier air had very little value for an artifcer. It is happening on every raid I have led in the last several weeks. I lead alot of raids..

[NXPlasmid]

This exact thread shows up again, and again, and again.

The issue here has nothing to do with any exploit, bug, or oversight on Turbine's part.

The issue here is yet another person who thinks they have a right to what drops in someone else's name.

You don't. No matter how nice you think you are by leading raids and giving away your items, you still have no right to anything that drops in anyone else's name.

I also have no idea how anyone could make the connection between a wizard rolling on an air spirit and exploiting. Do Wizards not use lightning spells?

(Edit) Also, I do not think you know what the word "penalized" means. Please look it up.

Your interpretation is incorrect as is your analysis of Matt's complaint. The problem with the current ability to trade things that should be either BTA or BTC is that, especially in the case of BTC items, when they drop in raids, rather than being put up for roll, or sale right then, or whatever, people who are inclinded to participate in trading BTA or BTC items will do so later with said item. This option should not be available to them, and as such it reduces the probability of someone in the raid getting the BTC item that they are looking for. That would a "penalty" to all of the players in any given raid or quest.

But I would also add that sometimes with these things I loot what I get because I am not familiar enough with what I want to know if I should keep it, thus sometimes I end up with things on toons that are of little or no use. I do think this is my perogative, and I am sure Matt would agree that it is OK to do.

[Maelphistez]

I'm going to support maddmatt on this one. No, not the "why wouldn't you put your loot up for roll?" portion of it. None of us know what a particular person my be building towards or why and if it dropped in his name, it's his.

But I do agree that Turbine has totally borked this one. It's a bug and an exploit. How do we know? Threads about it tend to disappear. If it's a bug, Turbine needs to hotfix it NOW and get it fixed. If they don't intend to fix it, they should let us know that it's WAI so that people who try to follow the rules can participate in the capitalism of the process.

[Paleus]

The sad thing is that this thread probably rubs up against Turbine's policy of even remotely publicly discussing exploits. Which is a shame since this one's nature and long endurance has fundamentally shifted how some segments of the population approach raid loot which deserves open discussion at this point given its longevity. It highlights long-standing problems people have had with bound mechanics encouraging grind and the gap between new players and established players. So I see no reason that the OP cannot bring up his point of view to discuss.

[Darknark]

The doublestrike does not work with ranged on 2nd tier air, the lightning strike effect occurs on Toven's hammmer which is the best runearm in the game so this second tier air had very little value for an artifcer. .

I seem to remember seeing a screenshot of a double lit II proc (Ie: item + tovens).... so it does have some value (sorry no link, lost all my PC data in an "unfortunate smelting accident" a couple days ago...)

Additionally it has +2 dex alchemical, giving +1 to hit for any arti using the "Insightful damage buff", lessening the to-hit penalty they get for gaining int mod to damage.

Getting a ~9.15 damage per hit and +1 to-hit is definitely decent.

[Bakarne]

There is very little incentive to play my Wizard or Cleric in LoB when the spirits are BtC, and for these classes, I have no interest in the Alchemical Weapons, which only have the illusion of customization. If the spirits were switched to BtA, like what Turbine recently did with the challenge ingredients, you could simply run the class that the raid group needs the most, rather than 10 monks that are all looking for air spirits.

That being said, I'm glad I don't play on Khyber. You guys must need to equip Underwater Action constantly just to swim through the Marketplace flooded with Norg's tears.

[Lux-Aeterna]

The same thing happened in the set of lord of blades raids I ran before this one. There was an artificer who pulled a 2nd tier air instead of putting it up for roll. The doublestrike does not work with ranged on 2nd tier air, the lightning strike effect occurs on Toven's hammmer which is the best runearm in the game so this second tier air had very little value for an artifcer. It is happening on every raid I have led in the last several weeks. I lead alot of raids..

Are you serious? This is as much legitimate a proof for an artificer exploiting as your initial wizard lightning example.

An artificer has no need for Alchemical Dexterity +2? Every artificer always has a Toven's hammer or assumes that they will be able to get one easily? Really? You can not make these kind of assumptions.

Also, you only responded to one out of many points that were raised against you.

[maddmatt70]

There is very little incentive to play my Wizard or Cleric in LoB when the spirits are BtC, and for these classes, I have no interest in the Alchemical Weapons, which only have the illusion of customization. If the spirits were switched to BtA, like what Turbine recently did with the challenge ingredients, you could simply run the class that the raid group needs the most, rather than 10 monks that are all looking for air spirits.



I actually think that this is the best loot for clerics/fvs in quite sometime. I have been working very hard for a superior devotion 9, +2 alchemical wisdom, and spell penetration 9 weapons for my cleric/fvs, but anyway what have yeah.



That being said, I'm glad I don't play on Khyber. You guys must need to equip Underwater Action constantly just to swim through the Marketplace flooded with Norg's tears.

In order to wade through my tears you will first have to wade through all the illegal trades in marketplace general chat which on my server not unlike the other servers are spammed constantly.

[hobgoblins]

Right on Matt, the honest players support you.

Lets not degrade ourselves with responses to those who will try to reject the obvious.
They know as well as we do its unfair. They are just posting to cloud the issue.
This should not be surprising since they cheat at games.

We should make sure to keep the discussion in such a way that the moderators don't
shut down this thread.

<sarcasm
After all, turbine takes violations of the term and conditions of its web sites and game very
seriously.
sarcasm>

Perhaps we should start to discuss changes in the way raid leaders could mandate loot allocation.
Maybe the LFM's should say "all spirits are auctioned" or some such method.
Or maybe "Non Exploiter run", or "Name what you are looking for in chat when you join".

[dakkon75]

In order to wade through my tears you will first have to wade through all the illegal trades in marketplace general chat which on my server not unlike the other servers are spammed constantly.

Don't forget they also have to wade through the amazing amount of draz left all over the marketplace and chat channels, man we khyberians have to wade through some pretty unusual stuff on a daily basis. We all probably need to update our vaccinations on general principal.

Draz

[maddmatt70]

Right on Matt, the honest players support you.

Lets not degrade ourselves with responses to those who will try to reject the obvious.
They know as well as we do its unfair. They are just posting to cloud the issue.
This should not be surprising since they cheat at games.

We should make sure to keep the discussion in such a way that the moderators don't
shut down this thread.

<sarcasm
After all, turbine takes violations of the term and conditions of its web sites and game very
seriously.
sarcasm>

Perhaps we should start to discuss changes in the way raid leaders could mandate loot allocation.
Maybe the LFM's should say "all spirits are auctioned" or some such method.
Or maybe "Non Exploiter run", or "Name what you are looking for in chat when you join".

/signed. I agree with your approach in posing the question of what can we the playerbase do to police things since Turbine is unwilling to police or do something. It is time to put up in the lfms things like no exploiter run or name ahead of time what you are looking for lfm. It is going to be hard with how widespread this exploit is, but if people know what the rules are ahead of time they may just follow the rules so that honest people do not continue to keep getting penalized.

[NXPlasmid]

Don't forget they also have to wade through the amazing amount of draz left all over the marketplace and chat channels, man we khyberians have to wade through some pretty unusual stuff on a daily basis. We all probably need to update our vaccinations on general principal.

Draz

There definitely needs to be a Khyber ship buff "protection from Draz" or "Globe of Draz immunity" something...

[somenewnoob]

I just wish they would change all this stuff to unbound. The cats out of the bag (You decide if that pun was intended!) and now there is really no reason to keep this stuff bound, since the only people it's hurting is the honest players who won't use the exploit.

[Diyon]

Your interpretation is incorrect as is your analysis of Matt's complaint. The problem with the current ability to trade things that should be either BTA or BTC is that, especially in the case of BTC items, when they drop in raids, rather than being put up for roll, or sale right then, or whatever, people who are inclinded to participate in trading BTA or BTC items will do so later with said item. This option should not be available to them, and as such it reduces the probability of someone in the raid getting the BTC item that they are looking for. That would a "penalty" to all of the players in any given raid or quest.

But I would also add that sometimes with these things I loot what I get because I am not familiar enough with what I want to know if I should keep it, thus sometimes I end up with things on toons that are of little or no use. I do think this is my perogative, and I am sure Matt would agree that it is OK to do.

I think this sums up the whole point rather nicely here.

With exploit:
-Loot only when needed
or
-Loot when not needed (to just let it rot or sell/trade/whatever, same end result)

Without exploit
-Loot only when needed
or
-Loot when not needed

In both situations, the results of the options on other players is the same: They either get a chance at it, or they don't. The difference with the exploit is that it is influencing the decision making process when they have loot: Those using the exploit may be more inclined to "loot when not needed" than they normally would, which creates loss to anyone else in the group that doesn't use the exploit compared to the situation where the exploit doesn't exist. With the exploit, there is a net loss to those that don't use it.

Also, this exploit will make people decide to roll on items I put up for roll that I want to go to someone who is going to use it, so when these people win rolls, those who want to legitimately use the item lose out, and they are the people it was intended for.

The problem is not wanting other peoples loot, its that an exploit is effecting what people do with loot.

The using of the exploit initially, that is tossing around stuff people already had, didn't have this problem, because it was stuff they already had prior to the exploit (mostly). Now we're getting into the long term and this decision effect is coming out stronger.

I don't care what they do about the exploit, whether its made a feature, eliminated, whatever. There just needs to not be an exploit so that people following the rules have the same opportunities as people currently breaking them.

[danotmano1998]

Congrats on your most excellent LOB run, OP!

[RedDragonScale]

The same thing happened in the set of lord of blades raids I ran before this one. There was an artificer who pulled a 2nd tier air instead of putting it up for roll. The doublestrike does not work with ranged on 2nd tier air, the lightning strike effect occurs on Toven's hammmer which is the best runearm in the game so this second tier air had very little value for an artifcer. It is happening on every raid I have led in the last several weeks. I lead alot of raids..

Again...not your loot. Sure you can have private emotions at the time the person doesn't let YOU roll on THEIR loot but, in the end, it's not YOUR call and you just need to, a) suck it up, b) get over it and, c) move on.



Your interpretation is incorrect as is your analysis of Matt's complaint. The problem with the current ability to trade things that should be either BTA or BTC is that, especially in the case of BTC items, when they drop in raids, rather than being put up for roll, or sale right then, or whatever, people who are inclinded to participate in trading BTA or BTC items will do so later with said item. This option should not be available to them, and as such it reduces the probability of someone in the raid getting the BTC item that they are looking for. That would a "penalty" to all of the players in any given raid or quest.

But I would also add that sometimes with these things I loot what I get because I am not familiar enough with what I want to know if I should keep it, thus sometimes I end up with things on toons that are of little or no use. I do think this is my perogative, and I am sure Matt would agree that it is OK to do.

I'm glad you know what's best for ALL of us and the Game. They should make you the Commissioner of Everything™.



Who in particular are you addressing with this statement?

I would like to know this too.



I think this sums up the whole point rather nicely here.

With exploit:
-Loot only when needed
or
-Loot when not needed (to just let it rot or sell/trade/whatever, same end result)

Without exploit
-Loot only when needed
or
-Loot when not needed

In both situations, the results of the options on other players is the same: They either get a chance at it, or they don't. The difference with the exploit is that it is influencing the decision making process when they have loot: Those using the exploit may be more inclined to "loot when not needed" than they normally would, which creates loss to anyone else in the group that doesn't use the exploit compared to the situation where the exploit doesn't exist. With the exploit, there is a net loss to those that don't use it.

Also, this exploit will make people decide to roll on items I put up for roll that I want to go to someone who is going to use it, so when these people win rolls, those who want to legitimately use the item lose out, and they are the people it was intended for.

The problem is not wanting other peoples loot, its that an exploit is effecting what people do with loot.

The using of the exploit initially, that is tossing around stuff people already had, didn't have this problem, because it was stuff they already had prior to the exploit (mostly). Now we're getting into the long term and this decision effect is coming out stronger.

I don't care what they do about the exploit, whether its made a feature, eliminated, whatever. There just needs to not be an exploit so that people following the rules have the same opportunities as people currently breaking them.

No. People are not "entitled" to anything including chances to acquire (through rolling on or trading for) other peoples' loot.

Regardless of a possible existing exploit, if I want to keep my loot whether I need it or not, that's MY call. Not yours or anyone else's.

[goodspeed]

hey look, another ban the exploters thread.

As far as loot, it's theres. Take shroud a guy could have all the greensteel he needs, in clothing and weapons, and he could still loot all those shards and vender em off. I think they're worth about 2 grand.

Wanna have some real fun? How about when a chest is clicked everything is bound to the character or account's name that it comes up in with no way of trading it in the box? There we go boys I just fixed the give me your lootz problems.

[gloopygloop]

/signed. I agree with your approach in posing the question of what can we the playerbase do to police things since Turbine is unwilling to police or do something. It is time to put up in the lfms things like no exploiter run or name ahead of time what you are looking for lfm. It is going to be hard with how widespread this exploit is, but if people know what the rules are ahead of time they may just follow the rules so that honest people do not continue to keep getting penalized.

Unfortunately, Turbine makes things like this very hard to do because of their policy of punishing players who point out when people have cheated, lied or exploited because it might make the cheater/liar/exploiter feel bad.

I suppose there is a point to that, though. I mean, Maddmatt70, if you had exploited, would you give your permission for people to point out times when you cheated? I imagine that it would cause all sorts of drama on the forums.

[Diyon]

No. People are not "entitled" to anything including chances to acquire (through rolling on or trading for) other peoples' loot.

Regardless of a possible existing exploit, if I want to keep my loot whether I need it or not, that's MY call. Not yours or anyone else's.

You misunderstand. I agree completely that that is YOUR call, not mine or anyone else's. I'm saying that it is bad that this exploit is influencing people's decision making process in making that call, that's leaning the results towards losses for people going by the rules. Edit: I'm not saying that someone should give away their loot. I'm saying it's bad that an exploit is changing some people's decision from "I'll put this up for roll" to "I'm looting it and going to use an exploit with it." It's only bad because there are still people following the rules. If Turbine makes it so they are unbound, this goes away. If they just fix the issue it goes away too.

[Thrudh]

I'm going to support maddmatt on this one. No, not the "why wouldn't you put your loot up for roll?" portion of it. None of us know what a particular person my be building towards or why and if it dropped in his name, it's his.

But I do agree that Turbine has totally borked this one. It's a bug and an exploit. How do we know? Threads about it tend to disappear. If it's a bug, Turbine needs to hotfix it NOW and get it fixed. If they don't intend to fix it, they should let us know that it's WAI so that people who try to follow the rules can participate in the capitalism of the process.

I have to agree with madsdmatt too... People are putting a lot less loot up for roll. I'm the only person in my groups putting epic seals and shards up for roll... because I'm the only person dumb enough to not cheat I guess.

[Kaytis]

The similarities with America's Prohibition era are pretty striking. Telling people they can't consume something so easily obtained and so desired, is bound to failure. All Prohibition really accomplished was to make criminals out of otherwise honest people. The game is different obviously, because Turbine can actually enforce the rule if they wanted to. But even if they did, now everyone that used the exploit is officially a "cheater" and since certain people will forever view them as such, there isn't much point for the so-called "cheaters" to not take advantage of the next exploit. This needs to be addressed.

I think that the solution to the problem is much like the solution to Prohibition. Decriminalize the behavior. Rather than attaching the label "cheater" to everyone that used the exploit, remove the BTA/BTC attribute on all ingredients. It won't make people like the OP happy -his beef seems to be with a specific symptom, i.e. no one puts their BTx ingredients up for roll anymore. But it will destigmatize the behavior, and let people legitimately do what they want to do with their loot without testing the waters of the dark side.

Plus we could get rid of four shines in each of the Cannith crafting halls -which would hugely de-complicate an over-complex system. I vote for a bar in the empty slots (keeping with the Prohibition theme!)

[somenewnoob]

I have to agree with madsdmatt too... People are putting a lot less loot up for roll. I'm the only person in my groups putting epic seals and shards up for roll... because I'm the only person dumb enough to not cheat I guess.

I'm that dumb too. Why I continue to remain dumb with all these "smart" guys running around is beyond me.

[RedDragonScale]

You misunderstand. I agree completely that that is YOUR call, not mine or anyone else's. I'm saying that it is bad that this exploit is influencing people's decision making process in making that call, that's leaning the results towards losses for people going by the rules. Edit: I'm not saying that someone should give away their loot. I'm saying it's bad that an exploit is changing some people's decision from "I'll put this up for roll" to "I'm looting it and going to use an exploit with it." It's only bad because there are still people following the rules. If Turbine makes it so they are unbound, this goes away. If they just fix the issue it goes away too.

I understand your reasoning but the truth is people have always kept loot they don't need (either because they didn't understand the stuff was BtC, only useful to certain classes, or because they were going to TR).

Your suggestion is that the existence of a possible exploit is responsible for people not giving it away or trading it away or, at least, making it less likely to happen.

What I'm saying is it doesn't matter because a) people have ALWAYS had the option to keep their loot, and b) there's no PROOF the possible existence of an exploit has caused people to exercise the option in part "a" of this statement any more than they did previously.

So the whining and complaining, to me at least, wreaks of pure jealousy and selfishness.

[Diyon]

No one is being penalized really.

I think the key thing here is this:

"With the exploit, less bound items are being put up for roll than without the exploit."

In other words the game environment, with exploit gone, has a greater amount of things going to people using the rules. With it, that amount drops, that can be called a "penalty." Its only a legitimate penalty because the penalty comes about because of rule breaking. If it became not against the rules, the penalty would be offset by the benefits gained by the cause of the penalty (trading of bound stuff). As it stands right now, everyone gets the penalty, but some breaking the rules get benefit.

[Diyon]

I understand your reasoning but the truth is people have always kept loot they don't need (either because they didn't understand the stuff was BtC, only useful to certain classes, or because they were going to TR).

Your suggestion is that the existence of a possible exploit is responsible for people not giving it away or trading it away or, at least, making it less likely to happen.

What I'm saying is it doesn't matter because a) people have ALWAYS had the option to keep their loot, and b) there's no PROOF the possible existence of an exploit has caused people to exercise the option in part "a" of this statement any more than they did previously.

So the whining and complaining, to me at least, wreaks of pure jealousy and selfishness.

Right, the option is there either way like I said, this is just skewing some people towards one option where they might not have before. I can't prove it, but we both know that people are taking bound stuff to sell with this exploit, we've seen people say they've done it, been offered, etc. I'm willing to say that not all of those people would normally have just looted these things when they didn't need them anyway, so there is a difference.

[NXPlasmid]

No one is being penalized really.

Again, you are not entitled to anyone else's loot. You have no claim to it whatsoever. You have no right to have your trade offers entertained nor do you have a right to roll on someone else's loot despite the fact they don't "need" it.

As corollary to this, you DO have the right to not include anyone in particular in your raids. No one has a "right" to be invited into your groups.

I suggest you exercise the rights and privileges you "actually" have.

Your arguement is invalid. Of course whoever loots any item has the right to do with said item, anything they wish to do with it. However, with the current exploit an option that should not be available, trading said items later, is available. This creates a shunt pathway for the distribution of BTC and BTA items that lessens the probability of all players recieving these items. This is direct and very real reduction in BTA and BTC loot obtained by all players currently in the game. That is a penalty regardless of how you want to look at it. The "your loot is your loot" discussion is not relevant to this discussion and really shouldn't be brought up... T

[mudfud]

I enjoy the Lord of Blades quite a bit and lead and run a fair number of those raids a week. I am getting really really tired of the continued lack of Turbine response to current bugs which are hurting me and other players following the rules. I led two pug lord of blades yesterday and several spirits dropped. In one of the raids I pulled an air spirit which I eventually put up for roll on one of my healer's because I could not use it on that specific character, but not before asking if I could trade it for the raid party wizard's fire spirit. That wizard looted his/her fire spirit and then when I put up for roll the spirit I had pulled rolled on that spirit. The wizard did not win the roll thankfully. That wizard will get banned from any future runs I lead. If Turbine can not enforce its own rules well I guess I will have to try to.

What is even more sad is despite 12 or so spirits dropping on the two runs combined no other spirits were put up for roll. My guildy commented after the run with the wizard that likely half the players who looted spirits were trading/selling them and not even keeping them. I am tired of honest players being penalized. I am sick of Turbine's lack of response. Yeah Forgotten Realms, new ehancements, epic levels, etc. is great, but what about your players right now who are getting hurt because you can not do something. Why should I lead pug raids? I led a flawless raid, nobody drank pots, I tanked the LOB on my FVS for godsake. Why the heck should I be getting penalized for being honest and following the rules and giving other players a chance to join a LOB raid and then executing it flawlessly?

I have yet in this post to see what exactly it is you want? You said that following the rules is hurting you. How is that person taking his spirit hurting you? How is it hurting you that he rolled on it after he looted his? All I see is speculation of what you think is going to happen. So again, how and what do you want?

BTW congrats on running the raid flawless.

[RedDragonScale]

I think the key thing here is this:

"With the exploit, less bound items are being put up for roll than without the exploit."

In other words the game environment, with exploit gone, has a greater amount of things going to people using the rules. With it, that amount drops, that can be called a "penalty." Its only a legitimate penalty because the penalty comes about because of rule breaking. If it became not against the rules, the penalty would be offset by the benefits gained by the cause of the penalty (trading of bound stuff). As it stands right now, everyone gets the penalty, but some breaking the rules get benefit.


To be "penalized" you would have to be entitled to the benefit in the first place.

I've made clear my stance on being "entitled" to someone else's loot (or being "entitled" to roll on it or being "entitled" to have their trade offers considered) previously.

[Thrudh]

I think the key thing here is this:

"With the exploit, less bound items are being put up for roll than without the exploit."

In other words the game environment, with exploit gone, has a greater amount of things going to people using the rules. With it, that amount drops, that can be called a "penalty." Its only a legitimate penalty because the penalty comes about because of rule breaking. If it became not against the rules, the penalty would be offset by the benefits gained by the cause of the penalty (trading of bound stuff). As it stands right now, everyone gets the penalty, but some breaking the rules get benefit.

Exactly. Make all these items tradable, OR Turbine tell us it's not an exploit anymore so we can do it too and then us honest folk will no longer be penalized.

I don't necessarily want to see the cheaters punished, but I do want to see this RESOLVED for us honest players as well.

[Thrudh]

To be "penalized" you would have to be entitled to the benefit in the first place.

I've made clear my stance on being "entitled" to someone else's loot (or being "entitled" to roll on it or being "entitled" to have their trade offers considered) previously.

This issue has nothing to do with "your loot is your loot". Quit trying to steer the discussion in that direction.

[porq]

The same thing happened in the set of lord of blades raids I ran before this one. There was an artificer who pulled a 2nd tier air instead of putting it up for roll. The doublestrike does not work with ranged on 2nd tier air, the lightning strike effect occurs on Toven's hammmer which is the best runearm in the game so this second tier air had very little value for an artifcer. It is happening on every raid I have led in the last several weeks. I lead alot of raids..

I don't understand. Are you saying that artificers are locked into xbow+runearm as their only option for weaponry? Is there no possibility that they want to build some other sort of weapon? What about if they preferred to be force specced for blade barriers and Lucid Dreams?

Looting t2 air spirit on an arty != exploit. I'm not sure why you wildly assume this to be the case.

[NXPlasmid]

I understand your reasoning but the truth is people have always kept loot they don't need (either because they didn't understand the stuff was BtC, only useful to certain classes, or because they were going to TR).

Your suggestion is that the existence of a possible exploit is responsible for people not giving it away or trading it away or, at least, making it less likely to happen.

What I'm saying is it doesn't matter because a) people have ALWAYS had the option to keep their loot, and b) there's no PROOF the possible existence of an exploit has caused people to exercise the option in part "a" of this statement any more than they did previously.

So the whining and complaining, to me at least, wreaks of pure jealousy and selfishness.

Your logic is terribly faulty. It's essentially saying that 1+3 = 4 as does 2 + 2 = 4 so clearly any time you add two numbers the result is 4, but of course we all know this is not true.

[somenewnoob]

Exactly. Make all these items tradable, OR Turbine tell us it's not an exploit anymore so we can do it too and then us honest folk will no longer be penalized.

I don't necessarily want to see the cheaters punished, but I do want to see this RESOLVED for us honest players as well.

Yup yup. Couldn't agree more. Personally I'd freaking love all this stuff to be unbound or to be able to trade it......now just tell me it's ok if I do so I can get on with it! Because I won't intentionally take advantage of something like this.

[stainer]

In one of the raids I pulled an air spirit which I eventually put up for roll on one of my healer's because I could not use it on that specific character, but not before asking if I could trade it for the raid party wizard's fire spirit. That wizard looted his/her fire spirit and then when I put up for roll the spirit I had pulled rolled on that spirit. The wizard did not win the roll thankfully. That wizard will get banned from any future runs I lead.


This issue has nothing to do with "your loot is your loot". Quit trying to steer the discussion in that direction.

I respectfully disagree.

[Postumus]

I enjoy the Lord of Blades quite a bit and lead and run a fair number of those raids a week. I am getting really really tired of the continued lack of Turbine response to current bugs which are hurting me and other players following the rules.

I think it was in Maj Malphunction's most recent thread that he says the first bug patch will address the things that got broken in Dec.

[Diyon]

To be "penalized" you would have to be entitled to the benefit in the first place.

I've made clear my stance on being "entitled" to someone else's loot (or being "entitled" to roll on it or being "entitled" to have their trade offers considered) previously.

I disagree. I would say that a reduction in what people were getting due to something that is against the rules is a penalty. I don't have a right to any stuff in particular except what drops for me, but an exploit IS causing people to get less (Which like I said, it would be fine except that those using the exploit, while getting the penalty, are getting a benefit and by doing such cause the penalty).

[Thrudh]

I don't understand. Are you saying that artificers are locked into xbow+runearm as their only option for weaponry? Is there no possibility that they want to build some other sort of weapon? What about if they preferred to be force specced for blade barriers and Lucid Dreams?

Looting t2 air spirit on an arty != exploit. I'm not sure why you wildly assume this to be the case.

maddmatt got side-tracked by stating such a thing... There should not ever be a "Hey that guy doesn't need that loot" argument. I agree with everyone else that we should never make that judgement, especially now that TRs exist.

[Thrudh]

I respectfully disagree.

You're right... maddmatt made a very poor argument.

Well, for me, it's not about loot... All I know is, I still put up my duplicate seals and shards for rolls, and others used to also...

Now I'm the only who does so... I haven't seen anyone else put up an epic seal or shard for a month.

[NXPlasmid]

I respectfully disagree.

Lolth suck up.

[stainer]

Lolth suck up.

Your monks will barely fill her belly. All Hail!

[maddmatt70]

maddmatt got side-tracked by stating such a thing... There should not ever be a "Hey that guy doesn't need that loot" argument. I agree with everyone else that we should never make that judgement, especially now that TRs exist.

Fair enough. Just believe me this whole situation is very frustrating. This stuff is getting traded all over the place. What is worse is me and my guild have been running this raid a ton and are one of the best groups at running the raid on my server. So random people join the lfms for normal fast lobs we post frequently contribute alot less to the raid's success and then practice the exploit so they get a better share of the loot. I mean come on.

[RedDragonScale]

If you trade BtC and BtA loot with other players, yes. But that was a generic "you" in my statements.

Ok, understood. Thanks for clearing that up. :)

[fuzzy1guy]

All i see here is more of the usual "wahhhh someone looted something i wanted"
Bound or not. It was never yours. You have NO way to judge what they are going to do with it.

Heck maybe the guy just thought you were a spastic whiner and thought 'no way am i letting that guy roll on it'. Which from your thread here is a non zero possibility.


Really wish turbine would just hide everyone's loot. If you wanna trade it you post a link and let people look at it / roll on it / assign to others. And anything you don't link won't ever be seen by anybody. Instantly cut half the loot whining out of the game.

It's nice when people put stuff up for roll. but by any stretch do they HAVE to? even if they have no use for it at all that you can think of? Hell no.

Especially spirits.. They don't exactly drop like plat. The time taken to tr into a class that will want it is alot less than the time it might take for it to show up again for that guy.
Even assuming it will be traded/sold with the exploit... How is that greed any different than your greed in expecting it to be up for roll because the guy 'cant use it'.

Nope. nothin here but the same ol same old..

[gloopygloop]

The hypocracy in this thread is astounding.

[Postumus]

Your interpretation is incorrect as is your analysis of Matt's complaint. The problem with the current ability to trade things that should be either BTA or BTC is that, especially in the case of BTC items, when they drop in raids, rather than being put up for roll, or sale right then, or whatever, people who are inclinded to participate in trading BTA or BTC items will do so later with said item. This option should not be available to them, and as such it reduces the probability of someone in the raid getting the BTC item that they are looking for. That would a "penalty" to all of the players in any given raid or quest.

But I would also add that sometimes with these things I loot what I get because I am not familiar enough with what I want to know if I should keep it, thus sometimes I end up with things on toons that are of little or no use. I do think this is my perogative, and I am sure Matt would agree that it is OK to do.


I agree this isn't really a 'your loot is your loot' issue. The bug has more ramifications than can be ascribed to simple loot envy.

[Gremmlynn]

Final note - I have not used the current expoit (have had no reason to), but I fully support it. The Bound mechanic, in my opinion, simply should not exist. I have never seen it help a game, and the best games I have played are those without it. Put simply, it should be removed; the only reason to have it in this game is an excessive importance placed on a character's equipment (meaning gear is to much of a factor in a character's effectiveness) and generating grind - neither of which are good.From the perspective of a player the whole bound mechanic is of little use. From the perspective of a "serious" player the same goes for gear dependency.

Now from the perspective of a game developer, both make sense. Bound items increase grind and therefor act as time sinks that extend the usefulness of content. While gear dependency helps reduce the effect player skill has on game balance, thus allowing the game play to be normalized across a broader spectrum of players.

[Diyon]

The hypocracy in this thread is astounding.

Just keep in mind hypocrisy only really applies when one speaks against what they do, not necessarily what they have done. A thief who decides that they are wrong and speaks out against stealing is not a hypocrite.

[Postumus]

I disagree. I would say that a reduction in what people were getting due to something that is against the rules is a penalty. I don't have a right to any stuff in particular except what drops for me, but an exploit IS causing people to get less (Which like I said, it would be fine except that those using the exploit, while getting the penalty, are getting a benefit and by doing such cause the penalty).

I have a feeling the exploit will probably be cleared up by the next bug fix.

Maybe Stainer would know, he seems to be the lead prognosticator these days.

[DragonMageT]

All i see here is more of the usual "wahhhh someone looted something i wanted"
Bound or not. It was never yours. You have NO way to judge what they are going to do with it.

Heck maybe the guy just thought you were a spastic whiner and thought 'no way am i letting that guy roll on it'. Which from your thread here is a non zero possibility.


I don't think that is the case here.

Logical we can assume (and from experience) people are trading, selling, or moving to other toons the BTC spirits.
So Matt has a valid point and there is evidence to support it.


I was in a LOB recently, where it was openly stated in voice chat. Hey, I will trade you X spirit for Y spirit. If not, I will just loot it and use it else where.