Speaking of enhancement lines - WF repair amp

[Riggs]

Repair Serious pots really stink.

With various amp lines for healing, various race/class/equipment combos can get some good mileage out of a cure serious potion - 40/50 points or more.

Drinking a repair potion and getting 18 hp back is very saddening.

Hopefully there will be more and better healing amp lines for WF than there is now soon - the 15%/20%/25% is front loaded, super expensive and not very good at the end.

Also there really should be a racial repair amp line as well. There are like 10 different ways to amp a healing spell/potion, and zero ways to amp a repair one.

[Ravoc-DDO]

That's the trade-off you make for not being a fleshy.

[Combat_Wombat]

Warforged already have enough advantages its bad enough they have started replicating almost every new armor or robe as a docent. They are supposed to play differently not just a carbon copy of squishy races.

[Enoach]

Yes, it does seem to be a trade-off of Healing Amp vs Repairing on the Warforged.

However, lets keep in mind that there is a benefit that Repair Healing line has over the Cure line:

Still works at its full strength even when inflicted with Mummy Curse (1/2 healing), Shroud of Dolurrh (1/2 healing) and Curse from Clay Golems and Boss Devils (0 healing).

Ok, I admit that if you avoid Undead and Necropolis, Clay Golems aren't really a bother, and there is only two raids where this type of curse happens, but still - Its the trade-off.

However, I could see this as an artificer infusion that could AMP up a Warforged's ability to be repaired.

[sephiroth1084]

WF Healer's Friend need to be a little cheaper. Maybe 2 AP per rank. I agree that it shouldn't be too easy for WF to get close to normal incoming healing, but by the same token, healing amp is one of the most important stats in endgame DDO, particularly when raiding, and WF get hit there very hard.

I'd like to see some Repair Amplification items. Not sure how I feel about these being very strong, but maybe if they are placed in spots and with other enhancements that melees find convenient/attractive, but interfere with solid caster items, that will keep things fairly balanced. Something in the neck and goggles slots, maybe, or on weapons?

[Emili]

WF Healer's Friend need to be a little cheaper. Maybe 2 AP per rank. I agree that it shouldn't be too easy for WF to get close to normal incoming healing, but by the same token, healing amp is one of the most important stats in endgame DDO, particularly when raiding, and WF get hit there very hard.

I'd like to see some Repair Amplification items. Not sure how I feel about these being very strong, but maybe if they are placed in spots and with other enhancements that melees find convenient/attractive, but interfere with solid caster items, that will keep things fairly balanced. Something in the neck and goggles slots, maybe, or on weapons?

The better built WF sometimes HEAL better that the fleshy... i.e. (a wf barb) was tanking mark II my heal scrolls were hitting him for 240 and my spells coul top him off easy from low points... he died when the healers (including myself) were knocked down and some DoS human Pally took over ... My scrolls healing the pally for 170 and likewise spell usage was needed more...

Many places I rather toss heal on well built WF rather than Recon them ... is easier cheaper and more efficient.

[Qhualor]

seeing as how a lot of casters dont do anything, like healers improve their heals, to improve their repairs, i could see how this could be useful. little more repair amp would be nice.

[pSINNa]

I have to agree with Emili here.

I just had to attend to this very thing on a WF fvs i've just brought up, and after taking healers friend 1 and 2 (yeh, that #2 really hurt but i really wasn't happy with my self heals before) and putting 20% heal amp on my DT docent, i got to 400hp per heal on myself, with my heal scrolls hitting well over 200 now (scroll mastery 3, for the same reason as above, i needed to be more survivable - dead healers don't heal!)

With every wf character i've played that doesn't have "on board" divine heals, i always go for umd, and hitting urself with a reconstruct (even did this on my tank) is a pretty good self heal for a pure melee.

As far as repair serious pots go, yeh, i agree riggs, they're dinky, and i only ever use them very early in the piece when i don't have access to other means of self healing.

[sephiroth1084]

The better built WF sometimes HEAL better that the fleshy... i.e. (a wf barb) was tanking mark II my heal scrolls were hitting him for 240 and my spells coul top him off easy from low points... he died when the healers (including myself) were knocked down and some DoS human Pally took over ... My scrolls healing the pally for 170 and likewise spell usage was needed more...

Many places I rather toss heal on well built WF rather than Recon them ... is easier cheaper and more efficient.

That has nothing to do with WF, and everything to do with a geared, well-built player vs. a poorly built and outfitted one.

[verad]

Not a bad plan.
When i first played having 3-5 dr was pretty awesome and that was the pay off
of having lower healing ability that WF have.
Things have come along way.....you can get that much dr from items and monsters hit a fair bit harder now.....How about giving WF damage reduction % instead of Dr 1-5
think of the poor melee wf...give them a chance!

[Xenostrata]

Warforged already have enough advantages its bad enough they have started replicating almost every new armor or robe as a docent. They are supposed to play differently not just a carbon copy of squishy races.

How, exactly? Half orcs have all their melee enhancements. Their only advantage is having arcane healing, which (as the thread is about) could use a boost, considering how situationally useful it is. Before u9, sure, it was great - if the healer died, the arcane could focus on reconning any warforged in the party. Now, the arcane is better off just DoTting and letting the WF die.

[verad]

I would like to point out that not a single epic docent....has any sort of healing amp.....and that is very un epic of them...just how many people need a 40 hp docent over a +10%+20% amp one.....
Sometimes I wonder if the people that make the game play it?

[Tsuarok]

I think it would be good on tanking oriented gear, not as an enhancement line. WF arcanes already have it pretty easy.

But the fact is that WF tanks are not chosen to tank certain raids due to their inability to be scroll healed effectively. And with their new pre being defender, it will be pretty silly if they are barred from tanking.

[Emili]

That has nothing to do with WF, and everything to do with a geared, well-built player vs. a poorly built and outfitted one.

So now you have ... repair amp vs healing amp or both? Be my point.

[sephiroth1084]

So now you have ... repair amp vs healing amp or both? Be my point.


Doubtful they'd be able to fit both in at the same time, and allowing them to swap seems okay by me. The WF's healing amp won't ever be as good as a fleshy's, and most raids are built around having at least 1 or 2 divine healers anyway. I don't mind enhancing the WF's flexibility as an option for tanking and such. Mind you, I'm not suggesting giving WF a Repair Amp line of enhancements, just some items.

[Ausdoerrt]

WF repair amp - because WF casters aren't OP enough already! Order yours today!

Sorry, I did read the thread and know it's looking for a way to make WF melees' lives easier, but there's got to be a way to do that without unbalancing the game further elsewhere. As is, repair amp suggestion would only make it worse.

[Ovrad]

Repair Serious pots really stink.

All around 'hp' potions need a boost. Past mid-game, a potion will generally heal you for less than the damage you get from a single enemy hit. The game has scaled up a lot since the release of serious potions, and potions could use a general boost or simply more tiers added (cure/repair critical being one of them).

Having less effective healing is however the price to pay to be able to be immune to everything and bypass healing curses.



Now, the arcane is better off just DoTting and letting the WF die.

That's hardly a problem of repair amp, but rather of how OP DoTs are...



I would like to point out that not a single epic docent....has any sort of healing amp.....and that is very un epic of them...

Meanwhile, monks are still waiting for their first epic outfit, dwarves are waiting for their first epic dwarven axe and the few remaining heavy pick users are probably considering respecing, just to name a few. There's a lot of options lacking in end game items, which is unfortunate considering the multitude of character options you can take just to end up not being optimized. We just have to work with what we have for now, and hope Turbine realizes at some point we don't need a new epic greataxe or arcane robes in every pack.

Dragontouched docent can still net you healing amp for now though.



WF repair amp - because WF casters aren't OP enough already! Order yours today!

Sorry, I did read the thread and know it's looking for a way to make WF melees' lives easier, but there's got to be a way to do that without unbalancing the game further elsewhere. As is, repair amp suggestion would only make it worse.

Agreed, self-repairing arcane can already solo a lot of epic content without too much trouble, repair amp would just unbalanced them even more. Which is why I suggested to boost healing/repair potions instead, to help melees be a little more self-sufficient.

Yes, I know silver flame pots can already somehow fill that purpose, but I would aim for lower content, so that a new player can grab some decent potions at minimal cost, without having to run (almost) every single silver flame quests in the game on elite first.

[Jaid314]

Yes, I know silver flame pots can already somehow fill that purpose, but I would aim for lower content, so that a new player can grab some decent potions at minimal cost, without having to run (almost) every single silver flame quests in the game on elite first.

imo, a lower tier of silver flame potion that causes "only" -5 instead of -10 penalties but heals 50 HP would be a nice option. particularly if it doesn't need that ridiculous 400 favor to get (say, 150 favor?)

[Riggs]

The better built WF sometimes HEAL better that the fleshy... i.e. (a wf barb) was tanking mark II my heal scrolls were hitting him for 240 and my spells coul top him off easy from low points... he died when the healers (including myself) were knocked down and some DoS human Pally took over ... My scrolls healing the pally for 170 and likewise spell usage was needed more...

Many places I rather toss heal on well built WF rather than Recon them ... is easier cheaper and more efficient.


Exactly - it is possible for a Heal to out-heal a reconstruct. If humans can be 'healer friendly', WF should be able to be 'repair friendly'.

However no WF can out heal a fleshy using the same gear. I am not arguing that they should be able to - but that like all the other front loaded enhancements - it is crazy expensive just to get from 15% over 50 to 25% over 50. Like 10 points more for 10% more amp - when the first 2 points gives you 15%.

Not balanced at all.

[Riggs]

Not a bad plan.
When i first played having 3-5 dr was pretty awesome and that was the pay off
of having lower healing ability that WF have.
Things have come along way.....you can get that much dr from items and monsters hit a fair bit harder now.....How about giving WF damage reduction % instead of Dr 1-5
think of the poor melee wf...give them a chance!

Yeah, DR way back was useful - and is still useful until like level 10.

By endgame is it a complete and utter waste of either feats or AP for the value.

"I can take a toughness feat and get 102 hp from it - raising my hp by 20% or more (or a bit less) - or I can get 1 DR with that feat" Which is like maybe a 1.5% increase in survivability - if that.

If each point of DR (barbs too) gave like 2% damage reduction, OR the 1 DR - that would be useful (low levels 2% is nothing, but 1 dr has value).

[Riggs]

I think it would be good on tanking oriented gear, not as an enhancement line. WF arcanes already have it pretty easy.

But the fact is that WF tanks are not chosen to tank certain raids due to their inability to be scroll healed effectively. And with their new pre being defender, it will be pretty silly if they are barred from tanking.

It seems Turbine is planning on changing this from comments - as yeah a 'Defender' racial line for a game that no one takes a WF defender to the high levels now would be utterly silly.

And comments for the WF Juggernaut seem to also trend that way - as they realize how absurd improved fortification is in DDO. So I am guessing the defender lines and dr are going to change.

Regarding arcanes - why not have it as well? There is basically no way to boost Reconstruct with feats, and Maximized/Empowered repair critical say is a expensive and less effective use of sp - unlike any and all healing spells.

People point to WF Arcane as 'already OP and this would be moreso'. That is a problem with the game itself - that arcanes are so OP at soloing, and self healing WF moreso.

No one is arguing that "WF melee will be so OP being able to use repair pots that are 30% better" - which just makes my main point again.

Yeah there is a class problem caster vs melee - but that is completely a separate issue than WF having no options for self healing that do not suck.

"BYOH, be self sufficient" is a common lfm, or a common mentality - and WF is less able to do it - and saying take umd on a melee should not be the default answer to everything. Esp as the game keeps wanting classes to stay pure more often.

WF are no longer 'immune to everything'. Energy drain sure. Poison? Pots. Disease? lots of items can help - or just drink pots after.

For the sake of one immunity to one spell and monster type that is only used in a small % of quests - WF get slapped with a healing issue for every single quest in the game.

There is balance - and then there is balance.

[Munkenmo]

this thread has been done before (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=344852)

like i said in that thread, it's beyond silly that my w/f monk has over 200% healing amp yet has 0 ways of boosting his repair spells.

the argument that boosting repair amp for w/f arcanes isn't a strong one imo, w/f sorcs with quickend reconstructs heal to almost full hp anyway, and wizards are the same or more likely to be a pale master rendering them immune to recon anyway.

Someone said here w/f already have enough advantages going for them? What advantages?

DR ? with crafting most people make an invulnerability ML:1 item to get 5 dr / magic
immunities? they're meant to be immune to sleep / hypno but there's plenty of situations that it's not the case
meant to be immune to negative levels, but tell that to a wight
power attack line? better off with horc, or even helf with versatility
hp? - roll a dwarf, least you don't have the healing penalty

anyone who plays a w/f endgame should have noticed the hit they've taken since the cannith pack was released

over night we got earthgrabbed (i know this was a bug, but honestly w/f needed that boost)
deconstruct came out, and unlike harm, there's no way to protect yourself from it.
a raid came out with a boss that makes you immune to all repair spells anyone is likely to carry.
a raid with so much splash damage you are a burden compared to a lesser geared fleshy.

There's something seriously wrong when an avid w/f fanboy like me is tring his toons into helf, horc or human because even I can no longer argue they're not a flavor choice. Gear and updates have changed so much that the only race worse than w/f now is drow, They need something, and a stalwart defender pre in 6 months isn't going to cut it.

[BlackSteel]

healing amp ITEMS should boost both divine heals and arcane repairs.

couple that with a racial enhancement line for wf repair amp to pair with the improved healing amp line. I would even suggest tossing a repair amp line for artis.

[Ovrad]

Gear and updates have changed so much that the only race worse than w/f now is drow,

I'd say drow, elf, dwarf and probably halfling are all worst than WF. Yes recent changes have made it that half-orcs/half-elves/humans are preferable for melee, yet most casters are still WF. They did lose a bit in potential, but they are still very viable compared to other races that needed love for a long time.

[Munkenmo]

yet most casters are still WF. They did lose a bit in potential, but they are still very viable compared to other races that needed love for a long time.

Most casters are not w/f

We can rule out divine casters being better off as w/f immediately.
We can rule out pale masters being better off as w/f easily
Bards are definately better off as a non w/f race between divine heals and cha as dc stat.

that leaves artificers, archmage wizards
sorcs willing to drop 2 dc over drow or human.

given the boost elves had to spell pen recently they're better for pale master
given drow's int they too are better as a pale master.
halflings like w/f are mostly flavor, but they're less gimped as melee, divine caster, and on par with w/f as a pm.
dwarves are 50% better at tanking due to their healing potential.

[licho]

I agree with the OP, thet some items with repair AMP or enchantment line would be nice.
Or make Healing AMP work on any HP gain.
My reason is that it will benefit all types of WF melees.
WF casters will care less since its already the easy mode.

Alternativly:
- Introduce some heal or reconstruct as the "found only" pots. (similar to mnemonics) The pots which can regen around 100hp.
- Change Repair and Heal skills so they can be used to regenrate health for some serious amount (like SL +1d20 * any amp)

[Ravoc-DDO]

It's all an elaborate subtle marketing strategy by Turbine to promote the horc race sales.

[NaturalHazard]

Agreed, self-repairing arcane can already solo a lot of epic content without too much trouble, repair amp would just unbalanced them even more. .

A lot of fleshy pale masters can as well, not to mention favoured souls.............. what is your point?

[Ausdoerrt]

A lot of fleshy pale masters can as well, not to mention favoured souls.............. what is your point?

So where's the thead for Negative Energy amp then?

[Calebro]

I haven't even bothered to read the thread so I'm assuming that this has already been stated. But I'm going to say it (probably again) just to be safe.
No.
One of the perks of playing a WF is that you can be healed from more sources than any other character in the game. There is absolutely no need for them to have even more healing options than they already have, nor is there a need to make them receive even more HP from repair spells when they are the ONLY ones that can even be repaired excluding a fleshy Arty that falls into the trap and spends a feat to only get half as much use from it.

[Ovrad]

A lot of fleshy pale masters can as well, not to mention favoured souls.............. what is your point?


So where's the thead for Negative Energy amp then?

^this

They are more than fine as is. No need to increase the amp. Non-arcanes though could use a boost.

[NaturalHazard]

^this

They are more than fine as is. No need to increase the amp. Non-arcanes though could use a boost.

Sure, maybe put some recon amp items in the game and have them have some high arcane spell failure or something?

And not too much of a boost either.

[Ausdoerrt]

I haven't even bothered to read the thread so I'm assuming that this has already been stated. But I'm going to say it (probably again) just to be safe.
No.
One of the perks of playing a WF is that you can be healed from more sources than any other character in the game. There is absolutely no need for them to have even more healing options than they already have, nor is there a need to make them receive even more HP from repair spells when they are the ONLY ones that can even be repaired excluding a fleshy Arty that falls into the trap and spends a feat to only get half as much use from it.

Good point actually. Unlike the abovementioned PMs, WF give up ONLY 50% healing for the ability to be repaired.


Sure, maybe put some recon amp items in the game and have them have some high arcane spell failure or something?

And not too much of a boost either.

That's probably reasonable, actually. Make it sort of like a permanent madstone effect to prohibit all spellcasting while wearing it.

[Viisari]

That's the trade-off you make for not being a fleshy.

So the trade-off is that unless you're an arcane caster you're basically gimping yourself for no gain?

Okay then, I guess that's fair...


Meanwhile, monks are still waiting for their first epic outfit

Then how is it possible that my monk has been running around in an epic outfit since U12? No, not a robe, an outfit.

[Calebro]

Good point actually. Unlike the abovementioned PMs, WF give up ONLY 50% healing for the ability to be repaired.

Exactly. Literally every single toon in the entire game that has a blue bar has the ability to heal a WF, so there is absolutely no reason that they need any more options, especially when half of the options that they already have are exclusive to them alone.
There is simply no way that you can convince me that they need even more options.

[Munkenmo]

Exactly. Literally every single toon in the entire game that has a blue bar has the ability to heal a WF, so there is absolutely no reason that they need any more options, especially when half of the options that they already have are exclusive to them alone.
There is simply no way that you can convince me that they need even more options.

go play a w/f melee in LOB

now go play one as a tank and ask the healers what they use on you
ask them what they'd use on fleshy with some heal amp.

unlike pale masters with negative energy you simply can't avoid the amount of damage they do on a melee, comparing the two isn't possible.

[Calebro]

go play a w/f melee in LOB

now go play one as a tank and ask the healers what they use on you
ask them what they'd use on fleshy with some heal amp.

unlike pale masters with negative energy you simply can't avoid the amount of damage they do on a melee, comparing the two isn't possible.

So now a situation has arisen where WF aren't the absolute best choice for every single aspect of the game, and that means that they need a boost?
I'll say it again: there is absolutely no way that you will convince me.
If you want to talk about other ways that WF may need a boost in comparison to the newer half-orcs and half-elves, then that's fine. But viability of healing isn't on the table. Thy already have more healing options than anyone else. They don't need more.

And now that I've actually read the thread, take a look here:


The better built WF sometimes HEAL better that the fleshy...
<snip>

Many places I rather toss heal on well built WF rather than Recon them ... is easier cheaper and more efficient.


And are you really going to complain about WF having problems?


it's beyond silly that my w/f monk has over 200% healing amp yet has 0 ways of boosting his repair spells.

What? Your WF has 200% amp and you somehow need MORE healing?
That's probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

[ArcaneMelee]

That's the trade-off you make for not being a fleshy.

Able to be repaired while cursed was another... wait...


...
Having less effective healing is however the price to pay to be able to be immune to everything and bypass healing curses.
...

Apparently, I need to file a large number of bugs then.


...
I'll say it again: there is absolutely no way that you will convince me.
...

Geez, you could at least pretend to have an open mind.

[bigolbear]

for the sake of balance., and what warforge meles used to be.


suggested enhancemnt line: Warforge construct essance.

2 ap: gain +2 adamantine DR, 10% damage mitigation, 10% repair amp, 20% arcane and divine spell failure(does not apply to scrolls/wands)
4 ap: as above stacking
6 ap: as above stacking

That stops the warforge arcane issue dead in its tracks and brings warforge meles back into the role they originaly held. I too can rememebr the time warforge DR was worth a **** and was a reasonable trade off for healing penalties.

OR juggernaught stance: (prestige thingy) a little more extreme.
4 ap: double your current adamantine DR, gain 30% damage mitigation and 100% repair amp, 100% threat gen and +6 to str and con. prevents spellcasting. prevents healing via positive energy. may not be used in conjunction with any definsive stance.

[Xenostrata]

I would point out that the idea that Repair Amp would unbalance Casters is both ridiculous and easily countered. Ridiculous because mos arcanes are hitting for over half of their HP already anyway, and easily countered by making it a melee only enhancement.

[Calebro]

Geez, you could at least pretend to have an open mind.

Nope, not on this one. :rolleyes:

[Munkenmo]

What? Your WF has 200% amp and you somehow need MORE healing?
That's probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

What's your point? i've got to sacrifice, my gloves, bracers, docent and get past lives to achieve that.

if the strength of w/f is meant to be two seperate sources of healing, why is it that the weaker version is the better one to persue, it's stupid.

[Tsuarok]

What about tying repair amp to the mithril/adamantine body feats? Maybe 50%/100%.

Few arcanes would take them, and if they did they'd have to waste gear slots and ap getting their ASF down, which would reduce their effectiveness in other areas.

But it would provide enough amplification to make scroll healing reasonable. True, the monk wouldn't get any use out of them, but monks already have the healing amp line.

[Xenostrata]

What about tying repair amp to the mithril/adamantine body feats? Maybe 50%/100%.

Few arcanes would take them, and if they did they'd have to waste gear slots and ap getting their ASF down, which would reduce their effectiveness in other areas.

But it would provide enough amplification to make scroll healing reasonable. True, the monk wouldn't get any use out of them, but monks already have the healing amp line.

I'd /sign this idea if the body feats were ever changed to a free feat at level one instead of a buy in (more like the vastly more ptent Dilletante feats, for example). It might work well, but it leaves the Paladins/Barbarians/etc. in the dust due to their feat shortages.

[Calebro]

I'd /sign this idea if the body feats were ever changed to a free feat at level one instead of a buy in (more like the vastly more ptent Dilletante feats, for example). It might work well, but it leaves the Paladins/Barbarians/etc. in the dust due to their feat shortages.

I was going to say that his was actually a semi-decent idea, except that the figures were far too high. 50/100% is far far too much. 15/30% would be more reasonable, and only if it still cost them the feat.
Not for free.

[Tsuarok]

I was going to say that his was actually a semi-decent idea, except that the figures were far too high. 50/100% is far far too much. 15/30% would be more reasonable, and only if it still cost them the feat.
Not for free.

They're kinda low actually. If your goal is to make scroll healing viable that is. 200% total amp (aka 100% extra) is the bare minimum I would want to keep up in longer raids.

While it is ok for WF to not be the best tanks in the game, they should not be excluded from the role.

edit: The numbers are only low if one considers that this would be the only source of repair amp in the game. Regular healing amp is not that amazing per source. It is only the odd way that they stack that makes it a must have ability.

[ArcaneMelee]

What about tying repair amp to the mithril/adamantine body feats? Maybe 50%/100%.

Few arcanes would take them, and if they did they'd have to waste gear slots and ap getting their ASF down, which would reduce their effectiveness in other areas.
...

+50% repair amp for 1 feat and 3 AP?

That's probably too good - I'd totally take it!

Edit: What's a bargain for a 12 Wiz battlecaster might be too expensive for a casting-focused WF, though.

[Calebro]

They're kinda low actually. If your goal is to make scroll healing viable that is. 200% total amp (aka 100% extra) is the bare minimum I would want to keep up in longer raids.

While it is ok for WF to not be the best tanks in the game, they should not be excluded from the role.

There are plenty of decent WF tanks. It just takes a little more work than it used to.


+50% repair amp for 1 feat and 3 AP?

That's probably too good - I'd totally take it!

Exactly.
With 100% they could have the same gear set-up that they'd have now, spend one feat, and literally anyone with W&S Mastery could scroll heal them for 400-500 pts per scroll, but Heal *and* Recon.
100% is WAY WAY too much. Any non-monk (or splash) WF melee in the game would be stupid not to take it. That's means it's too powerful.

[Tsuarok]

There are plenty of decent WF tanks. It just takes a little more work than it used to.

Show me a screenshot of a WF non-monk tanking ELOB. There just isn't enough amp.

[Calebro]

Show me a screenshot of a WF non-monk tanking ELOB. There just isn't enough amp.

I've already answered that, but not with a screenshot.


So now a situation has arisen where WF aren't the absolute best choice for every single aspect of the game, and that means that they need a boost?
I'll say it again: there is absolutely no way that you will convince me.

And for the record: Just because I don't happen to have a screenshot doesn't mean that it will never and has never happened. There is plenty of amp. It just isn't the "easy-button DR beats everything and I don't care about AC or heal amp" situation that you've become accustomed to over the past few years.
Everyone has to work to be a good tank. WF didn't used to even have to try, they simply were. Now they have to work for it just like everyone else.
Get used to it.

[Tsuarok]

Exactly.
With 100% they could have the same gear set-up that they'd have now, spend one feat, and literally anyone with W&S Mastery could scroll heal them for 400-500 pts per scroll, but Heal *and* Recon.
100% is WAY WAY too much. Any non-monk (or splash) WF melee in the game would be stupid not to take it. That's means it's too powerful.

I suppose I'd wanted it high because it was the only source, and, as I've said, I feel 200% amplification is necessary.

However, all tank current tank builds have to pay for their amp, and getting it all in one shot at character creation would be a bit... unorthodox.

So instead, I'd go back to a 4 tier enhancement line that gives 20%, 30%, 40% and 50% repair amp. The line would require mithril or adam. body feats as a prereq. Adam. body would multiply the repair amp by 2.

Don't forget that any build that wanted evasion would be confined to mithril body, so not all non-monks would go for the adam body feat.

[Tsuarok]

I've already answered that, but not with a screenshot.


So now a situation has arisen where WF aren't the absolute best choice for every single aspect of the game, and that means that they need a boost?
I'll say it again: there is absolutely no way that you will convince me.



And for the record: Just because I don't happen to have a screenshot doesn't mean that it will never and has never happened. There is plenty of amp. It just isn't the "easy-button DR beats everything and I don't care about AC or heal amp" situation that you've become accustomed to over the past few years.
Everyone has to work to be a good tank. WF didn't used to even have to try, they simply were. Now they have to work for it just like everyone else.
Get used to it.

As I'd said, they don't need to be the best, but they do need to be viable. As it is, they are not held to be. Is it impossible? IDK. I've never seen it succeed.

You probably aren't the one I'm suggesting these ideas to. I do appreciate your criticism, but if you begin by stating this, there is no real point to the conversation.

Healing potential of a WF tank (non-monk).

Additive
50 base.
25 enh.
10 fleshmaker
85%

Multiplicative
10% DT/other
20% DT/other
30% EClaw/GS
171.6%

171.6% * 85% = 145.6%

If you splash 2 monk (max for defender III pres), and stay centered, and grab Jidz bracers:

1.82325%

Still short of 200%, and you have to be using ki weapons and fire stance.

What am I missing?

Edit: missing paladin past lives. Honestly not sure if they stack additively or multiplicatively. They weigh in at 5% per life, so if they're additive they start the WF off at 100% after fleshmaker and enhancements.

If multiplicative, they'd give 1.05^3 * 1.456 = 168.5502% or 1.05^3 * 1.82325 = 211.06....%

So yeah, you're right, it is possible after 3 lives, and being stuck with handwraps and fire stance.

[ArcaneMelee]

...
What am I missing?

Ship buffs or Pally past life(s)?

[Tsuarok]

Ship buffs or Pally past life(s)?

Ah, the ship buff too. Looking at 230ish% potential.

[Ovrad]

Edit: missing paladin past lives. Honestly not sure if they stack additively or multiplicatively. They weigh in at 5% per life, so if they're additive they start the WF off at 100% after fleshmaker and enhancements.

Pretty sure they are additive to your base amp. So yeah, you'd get a WF with base amp of 100%.

[~Quilny]

Repair Serious pots really stink.

With various amp lines for healing, various race/class/equipment combos can get some good mileage out of a cure serious potion - 40/50 points or more.

Drinking a repair potion and getting 18 hp back is very saddening.

Hopefully there will be more and better healing amp lines for WF than there is now soon - the 15%/20%/25% is front loaded, super expensive and not very good at the end.

Also there really should be a racial repair amp line as well. There are like 10 different ways to amp a healing spell/potion, and zero ways to amp a repair one.
true that

[Tsuarok]

Pretty sure they are additive to your base amp. So yeah, you'd get a WF with base amp of 100%.

ok, if that's the case, we've got 188.76% without monk level with 3PL and ship bonus.

235.95% with fire stance + Jidz.

Still requires a monk splash to break 200%.

[Ovrad]

Still requires a monk splash to break 200%.

Or pally. 171.6% with 2 tiers of HotD = 205.92%

Still, I'm not sure what your point is, most fleshy won't break the 200% amp either.

[Xenostrata]

Or pally. 171.6% with 2 tiers of HotD = 205.92%

Still, [/b]I'm not sure what your point is[b], most fleshy won't break the 200% amp either.

I'm pretty sure it's that getting a reliable HAmp is SIGNIFICANTLY harder on a WF. Max for a WF, with every bit of possible gear/TRs, is less than half of what a fleshy can get. Considering how situational Repair is for WF melees, finding a way to give melees Repair Amp (tying it to ASF was a great idea) would be a good balance.

[Tyrande]

IMHO repair amplification enhancement lines or items would not help the Warforged melees. Having less healing is just the trade off of playing the Warforged.

Mind Flayer Mind Reading Theory 101: Expecting a person rolling an arcane caster for nuking or crowd controlling to use scrolls and spells for reconstruct is just "not fun". They had done it before for Vision of Destruction and Tower of Despair. But, was it fun for them? In my person opinion running three Arcanes, no.

If the person controlling the arcane caster wanted to play a healer type sometimes, they would have rolled a favored soul, cleric or at least a good artificer.

Now, I am talking about PUG groups. If you have a specific guild group or static group that built from the group up to reconstruct melee Warforged; that is an entirely different matter.

[Tsuarok]

Or pally. 171.6% with 2 tiers of HotD = 205.92%

Still, I'm not sure what your point is, most fleshy won't break the 200% amp either.

Sorry, I'd mentioned it only briefly and maybe not clearly; the builds I was looking at were either of the defender PrEs (SD or DoS), which would exclude HotD.

And I wouldn't expect most melees to have this level of healing amp. But I would expect an ELOB tank to.

200% is achievable on a dwarf with no monk levels or past lives.

1.1 fleshmaker

1.1 DT
1.2 DT
1.3 Eclaw/GS

1.1 Guild

207.636%

I do think it is good that lower levels of healing amp are available to WF. I also think that the state of endgame involves a reliance on heal scrolls, especially for tanks. I don't think that that means we should give WF access to equal healing amp, as that really trivializes this interesting difference. I do think that the scroll healing strategy should be viable for WF. For that I suggest that repair amp should be an (expensive) option to allow WF tanks to be viable in all important encounters while remaining unique.

I also think that the concern for uber WF arcanes is a little over the top. I mean, the levels of healing amp that a half-elf divine can get is pretty high, but I've never seen anyone single it out as something overpowered for half-elves. The reason? Their healing is already enough. And the same is true for WF arcanes. I don't think the difference would be all that noticeable.

[ArcaneMelee]

... I do think that the scroll healing strategy should be viable for WF. For that I suggest that repair amp should be an (expensive) option to allow WF tanks to be viable in all important encounters while remaining unique.
...

When I was running my wizard mainly as a re-constructor for a VoD tank on a regular basis, I invested 10 AP into the full line of Scroll Mastery to help ease the pain of drinking pots. It would have been nice if the WF tanks would have been able to share some of that cost.

It would be nice if a Pay2Play race that sounds (to new players) like an ideal melee would be a contestor for Best In Class for at least one melee role.

[Ausdoerrt]

It would be nice if a Pay2Play race that sounds (to new players) like an ideal melee would be a contestor for Best In Class for at least one melee role.

Sorry, "baww I paid for a class and I'm not automatically winning" isn't a proper justification. WF make excellent casters, and more than decent melee FvS (there's your one melee role). Making them The Best Race all around just because they're P2P is a silly idea.

It also sounds to new players that 6 CON is more than enough, and that 10 cleric/10 wizard is a viable split. Should that be fixed as well?

[MaxwellEdison]

I do not see the problem of having a WF be able to hit 200% healing (with pally PLs) and/or 200% repair amp (with enhancements and as yet unavailable gear) when a human or helf can hit 400%?

It's very likely any slots for repair amp would preclude the WF from slotting equivalent healing amp as well without seriously impacting other slots. Tie in a 5% ASF penalty with each rank of of the repair amp enhancement and I wouldn't even consider it on my sorc. I already overheal myself with recon unless I let my hps get down to 30-40% as it is.

If your main argument against this is that the trade-off for being able to be healed by repair spells is the serious (because of multiplicative stacking) penalty to divine healing, I do not understand how you can then argue that the WF shouldn't be able to get repair amp equivalent to what they can achieve for healing amp.

[Daggertooth]

Healing Amp is all over the place...there are people walking around w/ 300% healing amp. With artificers and house Cannith, there is no reason not to have Repair amplification. Common sense says this is nothing more than an oversight. Saying that arcane WF would be overpowered makes no sense. If they choose to slot items that offer increased repair amp that is their choice and they lose those slots to other options.

[Ravoc-DDO]

If one wants a symmetric system across both race types, one has to remain consistent. So I don't mind repair amp items, on the condition that fleshies also benefit 50% from repair spells, improvable with enhancements.

[ArcaneMelee]

It would be nice if a Pay2Play race that sounds (to new players) like an ideal melee would be a contestor for Best In Class for at least one melee role.

Sorry, "baww I paid for a class and I'm not automatically winning" isn't a proper justification. WF make excellent casters, and more than decent melee FvS (there's your one melee role). Making them The Best Race all around just because they're P2P is a silly idea.
...

You should read my comment again... I never said anything about "automatically winning".

But if you really think that melee FvS DPS is even close to a true melee DPS, I suggest you try playing one of each. I'm betting you're just trolling, though.


...
It also sounds to new players that 6 CON is more than enough, and that 10 cleric/10 wizard is a viable split. Should that be fixed as well?

Straw man much?