weapon finess?

[treehugger20]

is this a feat? I remember having a feat that uses Dex, vrs str for your to-hit. Does DDO have that feat? I was making a rouge/mage, and wanted to have higher dex, and use that skill, but i can't seem to find it.

[Hobgoblin]

is this a feat? I remember having a feat that uses Dex, vrs str for your to-hit. Does DDO have that feat? I was making a rouge/mage, and wanted to have higher dex, and use that skill, but i can't seem to find it.

yes it does, but its not worth it imo

hob

[Meetch1972]

yes it does, but its not worth it imo

hob

^ This. Expanding a little...

The biggest reason to use weapon finesse is if you are completely dumping strength and are relying on weapon procs to hurt things. And you cannot hit the same numbers with dex as you can with strength, so your to-hit on a maxed out character will always be lower.

If as a rule you're not swinging any kind of weapon, and dex synergises with your build, and you can spare the feat slot for finesse for the rare occasion you want to swing weapon for debuffing purposes (destruction/curse/shattermantle etc), then go for it.

Some finesse-able weapons (and maybe certain other rare items?) will also grant you the finesse feat while you're using them.

[cru121]

weapon finesse requires BAB 1, meaning that you cannot select it at the first level for a rogue/mage
http://ddowiki.com/page/Weapon_Finesse

[Ashlayna]

^ This. Expanding a little...

The biggest reason to use weapon finesse is if you are completely dumping strength and are relying on weapon procs to hurt things. And you cannot hit the same numbers with dex as you can with strength, so your to-hit on a maxed out character will always be lower.

If as a rule you're not swinging any kind of weapon, and dex synergises with your build, and you can spare the feat slot for finesse for the rare occasion you want to swing weapon for debuffing purposes (destruction/curse/shattermantle etc), then go for it.

Some finesse-able weapons (and maybe certain other rare items?) will also grant you the finesse feat while you're using them.

To expand on the expansion, the only way a finesse toon will fall behind in To Hit, is if they aren't what's classified as Melee in this game, and that's purely due to BAB, not whether Str or Dex is your To Hit modifier. A 30 Str and a 30 dex with Finesse will add the same To Hit to a bare weapon, if it's Finesseable. The Finesse property on a weapon only applies to that weapon. See something like Onyxhorn, for example. While using that dagger on this toon, I am granted Finesse, for that dagger, it doesn't apply to another weapon if I'm dual wielding it, unless I'm dual wielding 2 of them. A Finesse toon will, depending on Str and weapon effects, fall behind in actual physical dmg, since Str is used to determine all melee damage by default.

On my rogue, see my sig, I don't dual wield. I'm a Mechanic, and when I have to melee, I use a single dagger, with Finesse. I do, however, take full advantage of the Repeater, and yesterday, a kind soul broke me, but sold me an Icy Burst kit for all the plat I had, 35k, and I applied it to my lvl 12 +2 Paralyzer Repeating Xbow. So, in short, yes, Weapon Finesse is in, but you do have to meet the BAB requirement. Yes, it is useful, especially if you're going to have a high dex anyway.

[ArcaneMelee]

I remember playing a 14 Wiz/2 Rog back in the day with Weapon finesse, iTWF, and 2 vorpal sickles. It was very efficient to use the vorps on trash, and save spell points for the boss, but as they raised the cap and neutered vorps and stat damagers alike, it became very frustrating.

It's bad enough to be a finesse build on a class that has other ways of adding damage, but for a wiz/rog? Painful.

[Crann]

To expand on the expansion, the only way a finesse toon will fall behind in To Hit, is if they aren't what's classified as Melee in this game, and that's purely due to BAB, not whether Str or Dex is your To Hit modifier. A 30 Str and a 30 dex with Finesse will add the same To Hit to a bare weapon...

This is true, but there are a great many more ways to add to your strength, than to your dexterity.

Your achieveable strength score, and your to hit utilizing strength, will be higher.

[Ashlayna]

This is true, but there are a great many more ways to add to your strength, than to your dexterity.

Your achieveable strength score, and your to hit utilizing strength, will be higher.

Which is, for a toon where Str would be questionable, such as the OP's Wiz/Rogue, a good enough reason to use those Str enhancements to enhance your damage. Dex will go a lot farther, at least early to mid game to survivability than Str on that combo, and stats are already going to be spread pretty thin, since the build will require both higher dex and int. Depending on the split, anyway. The higher dex, btw, is required more for AC than To Hit, and adding a higher str will simply take away from the build, not add to it.

[Crann]

Which is, for a toon where Str would be questionable, such as the OP's Wiz/Rogue, a good enough reason to use those Str enhancements to enhance your damage. Dex will go a lot farther, at least early to mid game to survivability than Str on that combo, and stats are already going to be spread pretty thin, since the build will require both higher dex and int. Depending on the split, anyway. The higher dex, btw, is required more for AC than To Hit, and adding a higher str will simply take away from the build, not add to it.

You aren't getting anything worthwhile out of a high dex on this build. Not wasting a feat on Weapons Finesse will get you alot further on a character that really doesnt need Dex for anything.

Spend that feat on Insightful Reflexes, Max Int, then Con. Dump Dex, it is worthless on this build.

Forget about a meaningful AC for this character for which it could only possibly be a benefit for a few levels.

[Hobgoblin]

Which is, for a toon where Str would be questionable, such as the OP's Wiz/Rogue, a good enough reason to use those Str enhancements to enhance your damage. Dex will go a lot farther, at least early to mid game to survivability than Str on that combo, and stats are already going to be spread pretty thin, since the build will require both higher dex and int. Depending on the split, anyway. The higher dex, btw, is required more for AC than To Hit, and adding a higher str will simply take away from the build, not add to it.

what are you talking about here? most wiz/rogue builds dump dex and have int/con

str would be better alll around in here

hob

[treehugger20]

what is insitefull reflexes? Does that help with Aim as well?


dumping dex on a rouge doesnt make any sence from this old school dnd point of veiw.. if someone wants to explain that please do.

Basically my thoughts on the play style for this character.. a stealthy mechanic, using a crossbow from range, and stealth often. And using spells to change the tide of battle, and my own survivablity, with illusions and such. I figured i could use magical strength boosts and stone skin, along with blurr or mirror image for the random times i want to add damage with my sneak attack,, or do things like hamstring, Utilizing things like intimidate and diplomacy, bluff..

the idea is a character thats very hard to hit, that can tie up a creature with futile swings staying just out or range, while someone else catches their breath.. and then add in key damage through fire, or other spells when the time is right.

The character is also ment for group play, and will be played with the same group all the time. I say this cause it's definatly not a pug character where things really can be much broader to take up slack at times when a team is not up to par.


I started out, with 10 str, 18 dex, 8 con, 16 int, 10 wis, 14 chr.. (I keep seeing this whole +2 tombs that people use at lvl 7, which would bring me to +12/20/10/18/12/16 If someone can tell me how to get this boost, that would be nice.) I went with higher charisma, cause it will help with my int/bluff/diplomacy, and of course the Use magic item skill, which i want to use some priest type stuff to enhance my group usefullness.


As i was saying, the play style i envision, is something that rarely gets hit and uses magic to help the group. I think of as almost fairy like, poping from place to place, taunting something into frustration while the group takes my distraction cue, to put the smack down and do the real damage.. Or using spells like grease, and web, to enhance my hasty retreats, and poping fireballs while they are stuck in the goo.

I also thought about raising my survivablity, through some racial feats, and magica gear enhancements, vrs the typical stats, which honestly going, droping the other stats, seams like they would only be gaining a few hitpoints over all, unless i really dumped a lot of points into con, which i would have to really drop charisma, and dex to do so, but that doesnt make a lot of sence to me (if you want to explain why it does make lots of sence, please feel free). I dont want to be a battle caster persay.. Much more someone thats hiding in the darkness, that all of a sudden a spell from nowhere appears, and back into the darkness.

One last note, this character will definatly not be charging to 20 and running raids.. If i get to lvl 15 in a year.. that might be nice. its a one night a week, take your time group.

I just want the character to be fun, and viable in the structure of the group, and the playstyle i envision.. If you all have any tips for something that i should think about, please feel free to add.. :)

[xSeverinax]

Wow, where to begin! 8 con? You are going to die, a lot. With that con your hit points will be so low that you will be constantly dying. Many healers will either waste sp healing you and then run out, or simply stop healing you. I know I would on my healer. You really need a 12 con as an absolute minimum. 14 would be better. DDO is a completely different game to pen and paper D&D, sure the basics are the same but in practice it works very differently.

[Olath_Senger]

What, exactly, is your planned level split?

If you want to fill a support roll (buffing, secondary healing) I highly suggest making a Bard. The type of character you want doesn't seem to be viable at all, whether or not you're in a group.

8 Con, don't do it. Bump it to 14.

[treehugger20]

well, my whole plan is to not take damage.. So in my eyes, if someone is healing me im not playing right.. As i was saying, ranged damage, and helpfull spells. Im not exactly sure on the split, was thinking perhaps 12/8 in the end, But id more likely be in the middle road, 4-4, then boost one side a bit.. that will probably last me till the end of the summer atleast.

I could get to 12 con.. that gave me +2 HP, so 10 lvls, that would be 20 HP.. (honestly, I dont see how 20 hitpoints is that crucial to me living or dying?) But if i added tough, I would get another around +20 (im talking middle lvls, not end game), , or the halfling bonus which could add even more,.. yes i could see how if i added all that, which would be close to +50-60 higher at that point, But i guess i just dont get how, missing that +20 is really that huge of a difference?


I guess i just don't get why people can't avoid damage? sure as a fighter its kinda hard, But why can't other group members? does something happen at latter lvls, that all of a sudden you can no longer avoid damage? I havent played the game that high of lvls.. But up to around 10 or soo,, basically all the lower lvl content, i havent had that many issues with surviving. As a rogue on teams, i tend to avoid damage, not take it. Perhaps later something is different?

[treehugger20]

Ok.. i was messing around with the character builder and got.. 10 str, 16 dex, 14 con, 16 int, 10 wis, 12 chr.. then i could use enhancements to get to +18 dex, and INT..

then those tombs would get me to +14 chr, +12 wis for the extra point, and +12 str, which should stack up ok with a spell when needed.. and boost the dex and int to +20

would that be better? I was kinda thinking that i should get to +20 dex.. sooner than later, But if you think that i would be ok, with just 18 dex, maybe i should do that?

[SardaofChaos]

I guess i just don't get why people can't avoid damage? sure as a fighter its kinda hard, But why can't other group members? does something happen at latter lvls, that all of a sudden you can no longer avoid damage? I havent played the game that high of lvls.. But up to around 10 or soo,, basically all the lower lvl content, i havent had that many issues with surviving. As a rogue on teams, i tend to avoid damage, not take it. Perhaps later something is different?

It's rather hard to avoid damage that comes in the form of area-of-effect, especially when said damage has a high or no save associated. Even damage with a low save only needs a misplaced 1.

[treehugger20]

Ok.. well how often does stuff like that happen? I know there are fireballs which are always fun. But is there a way of being out of range of that sorta stuff? No room for ranged tactics and the stealthy approach?

I was envisioning, being at range, using illusion to mask my presence, tumbling out of the way or using diplomacy/bluff as last resorts. Moving in and out for a melee attack on occasion, or an attack of opertunity, before retreating to the safty of range..

I guess my point is, I definatly dont want to be right in the middle mixing it up with max DPS.. If i wanted that i would play a dwarven fighter/rouge. But at the same time, i dont want to be dead either.. :) Is there no room for outta the thick of things character? Are they just not viable to play at later lvls?

[xSeverinax]

Ok.. well how often does stuff like that happen? I know there are fireballs which are always fun. But is there a way of being out of range of that sorta stuff? No room for ranged tactics and the stealthy approach?
Not really, enemy archers can shoot just as far as you can, Kobold throwers can throw pretty far, and the shamen lightning bolts go further than you think. If you are in range to hit them, they can hit you. Low level content, if your stealth is good enough, you can use it to take out mobs, but ranged damage is fairly poor, and on elite you are unlikely to one shot a mob if doing quests at level. Attacking and even reloading a crossbow will break stealth so you risk getting seen. Also it is not often that mobs are entirely on their own and out of sight of their buddies. Don't get me wrong you can lure a single mob off and kill em 1 by 1 - if you are good, but in a party it is difficult as the rest of the group sits around bored while you do it.



I was envisioning, being at range, using illusion to mask my presence, tumbling out of the way or using diplomacy/bluff as last resorts. Moving in and out for a melee attack on occasion, or an attack of opertunity, before retreating to the safty of range..

There is only one illusion spell that will hide you - invisibility, which ends after you make an attack, and can be seen through. I got really fed up with mobs seing through my rogue's invis even with a huge stealth, the reason they can is that many mobs at mid / high level have true seeing, which negates invisibility. It is ok for low levels but remember it is not a definite.



I guess my point is, I definatly dont want to be right in the middle mixing it up with max DPS.. If i wanted that i would play a dwarven fighter/rouge. But at the same time, i dont want to be dead either.. :) Is there no room for outta the thick of things character? Are they just not viable to play at later lvls?

Viable - yes, of course. But just like players use tactics, so do the mobs. They will used ranged weapons and spells to target casters. I imagine that a very well geared and knowledgeable player could keep such a character alive. But how much would they contribute to the group? How much fun would it be to cast a few buffs and then hide away from most of the combats? As for how much difference the higher con makes....

8 con = a -1 to hp. An arcane caster gets 4 hp per level, that -1 means 3 hp per level.
14 con = +1 so 5 hp per level, it may not sound much, but when you are getting hit by arrows doing 1d8 basic damage, those extra 2 hp make it far less likely for you to die from a single hit. (40 hp at lvl 20). Toughness gives you 23 hp at lvl 20 and is needed to unlock racial toughness from AP which will give you another 20 Hp. That comes to 83 extra hp.

Your 8 con wiz at lvl 20 will have 70 hp (without items to boost it), my level 15 barbarian does around 60 - 80 per hit, and over 100 on a crit and he is an under geared first attempt by me at making a barbarian (he also has almost 600 hp).


Ok.. i was messing around with the character builder and got.. 10 str, 16 dex, 14 con, 16 int, 10 wis, 12 chr.. then i could use enhancements to get to +18 dex, and INT..


That is a far better stat spread, far more survivable. You havent said what race you picked either, but rogue dex enhancements can give you up to an extra +2 dex, racial enhancements (elf or drow and halfling) could get you another +2. Your dex item of +6 and your your ship buff of +2 will take your 16 dex to 28 without a tome. You could hit a 26 int without a tome as well. about 95% of DDO questing is fighting, with the remaining 5% being traps and puzzles. Wizard 18 / rogue 2 splits are very good if built well, but a 12/8 split is not so good, your spell casting will be seriously hampered, most high level mobs will save against you , so you won't be able to charm them and your damage will be lower, but mixed with a rogue mechanic with a repeating xbow, it could work. But not with an 8 con. By all means try it if you want - it's your time and money, but I think you will be disapointed if you go with your first stats. Your second ones are soo much better.

[treehugger20]

Ok, thanks you make some viable points...

I'm just from the olderschool that rogues need high dex.. But i guess thats not a huge difference, as i would be gaining +60 HP total right?

I guess as long as i wont be loosing much on the dex end, that would be ok.. thanks for the info.

I thought i did say, but perhaps not.. Im a halfling.. I saw extra spell penetration powers you can enhance. I was thinking perhaps that could make up for some lack of lvls. I think the max i would goto would be 14/6, as that is the minimum lvl needed for mechanic in rogue, and i think i could get enough skills high enough to make me happy.

thought like i was saying.. How long this character takes to get even to the 15 range is anyones guess. So im not really all that concerned with end game raids. I just want something that is gonna be fun for 75%+ of the game.


I saw some spells like sheild, mage armor, blur, and another illusion blur that was even more powerfull. Also with spells like stone skin, id think id be pretty durrable when using magics to augment my powers. Perhaps the self saving magics are not as powerfull as i thought?

[EustaceTrevelyan]

is this a feat? I remember having a feat that uses Dex, vrs str for your to-hit. Does DDO have that feat? I was making a rouge/mage, and wanted to have higher dex, and use that skill, but i can't seem to find it.

Really not considered worth it, since you just lower your tohit and damage where it really counts, when you're buffed up near end game. At that point, even dumping str entirely, with all the stac king str buffs you can still get your str higher than dex, so it's sort of pointless, as you'll still be using str for hit/dmg mod, as it will still be higher.

The reasons for taking it in the past (crit procs, stat dmg, AC) have been steadily deprecated in favor of raw damage.

[Crann]

well, my whole plan is to not take damage.. So in my eyes, if someone is healing me im not playing right.. As i was saying, ranged damage, and helpfull spells. Im not exactly sure on the split, was thinking perhaps 12/8 in the end, But id more likely be in the middle road, 4-4, then boost one side a bit.. that will probably last me till the end of the summer atleast.

Typically, deep splashes involving casters don't work well. The less caster levels you have, the less effective your spells are.

They are especially to be avoided by newer players who do not have the equipment and knowledge of game mechanics to pull it off.

I would suggest playing a pure class to cap, or at least a multiclass designed by one of the experienced builders here on the forums.

If you want to be able to fight, use stealth, and some magic, play a rogue. They will have access to just about as much usefull magic as your 8 levels of wizard will get you through UMD and scroll/wand use.

You may want to look for a mechanic build if you really want to play a stealthy ranged player. You would probably enjoy an Artificer if you really want to blend ranged, support, and casting ability.

And all the other advice on con is sound......never an 8. If you are anywhere that you may take damage....like in a dungeon....you need Hit Points. Learn about fortification now too while your at it, you'll have much less aggravation later.

[Crann]

basically all the lower lvl content, i havent had that many issues with surviving. As a rogue on teams, i tend to avoid damage, not take it. Perhaps later something is different?

Generally, any build can survive the lower levels.

Once you get to the Desert and Gianthold that all changes. Mobs hit harder, both melee and ranged, and casters use area of effect spells.

You will fight in small rooms, and on platforms with no where to hide.

You will eventually be in a big room with a large red creature who will throw meteors at you while whirling blades roam about the room. That is where all your stealth and tactics go right out the window. He's got a special relation with the lag beast, and no matter how good you are at dodging blades and meteors, there is no substitution for having enough Hitpoints.

[Denegrator]

^ This. Expanding a little...

The biggest reason to use weapon finesse is if you are completely dumping strength and are relying on weapon procs to hurt things. And you cannot hit the same numbers with dex as you can with strength, so your to-hit on a maxed out character will always be lower.

Sorry, but wrong. You should NEVER dump strength on a finesse character. The main purpose of choosing finesse is if your dex is significantly higher than str, it makes sense to use finesse. A finesse character who has invested in str can do plenty of damage, a finesse monk for example, or a finesse rogue. A good stat distribution for said characters would be a 14/16 str dex split, with the intention of putting your level ups in dex. It gives you plenty of build points to distribute around. Finesse is not about stat drainers, unless you've gimped str.



If as a rule you're not swinging any kind of weapon, and dex synergises with your build, and you can spare the feat slot for finesse for the rare occasion you want to swing weapon for debuffing purposes (destruction/curse/shattermantle etc), then go for it.

Some finesse-able weapons (and maybe certain other rare items?) will also grant you the finesse feat while you're using them.

Again, you don't need to dump str to use finesse, you can use these de-buffers on a well balanced finesse melee and it'll be a lot more effective than the gimped str version.

[treehugger20]

ok.. After checking out many spells, and lvls and what you have mentioned about penetration and such.. What about swapping? from the 14 wiz/6 rogue to0..

7 wiz/ 13 rogue?

this would give me my fire that i want.. (character concept)

give me some buffs, like the str/dex/int, which i think could come in handy, along with others like tumble/jump.

some magic protections, evil, energy, to name a few, along with sheild, invisiblity, and Blur, Not to mention stoneskin, and dispell, which always can be usefull.

It looks like i would be missing a bit in damage on the sneak side, But if my roll isnt the main damage doer in the group, perhaps that would be ok? I also noticed missing some trap sence, a couple points on saves, and a couple of the special feats. But could i just use some enhancements and different point use to gain those back? I can definatly make up for the saves with racial enhancements

Focus on some magic that isnt dependent so much on caster lvl.. (many of the spells i was looking at it seemed like 10 lvls would max the spell, if not i would only be missing out on a few points damage. (perhaps using some enhancements could gain some of that back?)


then use tough, 14 con, and a few of my racial enhancers to boost survivablity, and a high magic use skill, which could open up higher lvl scrolls, and cleric wands/scrolls

does that sound better?



*edit, another thing i was noticing, what about the heightened feat? the one that decreases the chance for something to resist the spell,. I also noticed that there were enhancements that also improved spell penetration. (does that mean lowers chance a monster can resist?) I guess what im saying, 14 lvls of wizzard, with many feats, and highten, could that overcome the spell lvl deficit? aka, missing 6 spell lvls? Then the rogue side would definatly be less, and id have to really do some thinking on how to deal with that..

[Redicular]

ok.. After checking out many spells, and lvls and what you have mentioned about penetration and such.. What about swapping? from the 14 wiz/6 rogue to..

7 wiz, and 13 rogue?

this would give me my fire that i want.. (character concept)

give me some buffs, like the str/dex/int, which i think could come in handy, along with others like tumble/jump.

some magic protections, evil, energy, to name a few, along with sheild, invisiblity, and Blur, Not to mention stoneskin, and dispell, which always can be usefull.

It looks like i would be missing a bit in damage on the sneak side, But if my roll isnt the main damage doer in the group, perhaps that would be ok?


Your PnP experience is tainting your DDO expectations. you're seriously underestimating the strength of the foes you'll be tackling.

stat buff spells: at the levels they're available to pure wiz/clerics they have a tiny bit of use due to new player finances mainly. but the fact that they don't stack at all with gear you WILL have by the time your multiclass character gets access to them greatly diminishes their import.

shield: for AC its very strong levels 1-8 or so, assuming you are not equipping a shield. but, as many forum users will explain, AC loses nearly all use starting at level 10, and is worthless for non-tanks by level 14. mob to-hit is skewed to be a threat towards pure AC builds who will easily have a 30 or more AC advantage over what your character will be capable of reaching.

Jump: great, but available as potions, scrolls, and clickie*

tumble: not so great, DDO doesn't have attacks of opportunity the way PnP does, so the main use of tumble(moving in combat without triggering an AoO) doesn't exist.

protection from evil: save bonus - good, nearly everything we fight is evil. AC bonus - see shield, in short starts out good tails off quickly

invisibility: has been mentioned before, it can be very useful but it only lasts until you hit something(improved invisibility doesn't exist in game) and foes with "see invisiblity" are incredibly common.

dispell: seems useful, but its an opposed caster level check. again you have the issue with the strength of your foes. your CL will be equal to whatever wizard levels you take plus any bonuses you can come across. typically you'll max out about 4 levels above your number of wizard levels(the practiced spellcaster feat, so integral to caster multiclass, doesn't exist in DDO). Your foes on the other hand will have a CL equal to their CR, and you will face 20+ CR foes as early as character level 10. endgame CRs can easily reach 40. the epic lord of blades is a CR 46. a fully speced wizard, with some of the best of the best gear, MIGHT have a 5% chance to successfully dispel him

* clickie: a piece of equipment(example: a helmet) that can be used as an item to cast a spell. typically they have the lowest caster level possible making clickies that target foes nearly worthless, but they are EXTREMELY useful for casting buffs.


Focus on some magic that isnt dependent so much on caster lvl.. (many of the spells i was looking at it seemed like 10 lvls would max the spell, if not i would only be missing out on a few points damage. (perhaps using some enhancements could gain some of that back?)


then use tough, 14 con, and a few of my racial enhancers to boost survivablity, and a high magic use skill, which could open up higher lvl scrolls, and cleric wands/scrolls

does that sound better?


yes this sounds better. I still think you're taking too many wizard levels though. let me check some things.

you want a stealth focused character, with slight magical abilites mainly focused on buffing, trap skills, and good ranged weapon usage.

if that's right confirm and i'll see what i can do about putting together a build for you. I'm really thinking a bard with a rogue splash might touch all your bases but I want to be sure I'm reading your desires correctly.

[treehugger20]

well, thats not exactly what i was thinking, But you have peaked my interest. But yes, stealthy, spell caster, that has some neat group support tricks, and can deal with traps and locks.,

Btw, is there a knock spell? if so does it open up just about everything like in pnp>?


and yes.. my pnp, and 2nd eddition rules is very much coloring what i think of when i think of multiclass.

[Meetch1972]

Sorry, but wrong. You should NEVER dump strength on a finesse character. The main purpose of choosing finesse is if your dex is significantly higher than str, it makes sense to use finesse. A finesse character who has invested in str can do plenty of damage, a finesse monk for example, or a finesse rogue. A good stat distribution for said characters would be a 14/16 str dex split, with the intention of putting your level ups in dex. It gives you plenty of build points to distribute around. Finesse is not about stat drainers, unless you've gimped str.



Again, you don't need to dump str to use finesse, you can use these de-buffers on a well balanced finesse melee and it'll be a lot more effective than the gimped str version.

I wasn't saying you do need to dump str, just that the biggest reason to go finesse is if you have dumped str and are relying on weapon procs to hurt things. The OP wasn't going monk, so no point in counting their special abilities and the context of the build didn't suggest any real emphasis on strength was going to happen. Strength is still generally required to calculate damage - and the OP is interested in the biggest benefit of dex. And the OP was looking at maximum dex, which generally infers some level of dumping str - especially after reconsidering dumping con a little further down the thread, and investing in int because of those wiz levels...

Of course, you never really want to dump strength - besides determining base damage, how else can you carry around the 6 suits of full plate you just looted without being encumbered??? :) Keep in mind that this toon is not likely to be geared for quite some time, so it's pretty safe to say the strength ain't going to get all that high for quite some time unless the dex rogue idea is dropped.

Something else for the OP - never underestimate the value of toughness feats and enhancements. Those HPs will matter when you get hit with a 500hp disintegrate which your improved evasion (when you get it) reduces to 250... At the higher levels your 300+hp toon will easily come across creatures with many thousands of hit points. Add to that, the various vorpal type effects will only actually kill things that have less than 1000 hp left, and you're in for some hurt when you are forced to go toe to toe with the enemy and your AC isn't impressive enough (or if they roll a bunch of 20's).

I have a dex mechanic rogue who is fun to play - but her optimal play style (primarily kiting) wouldn't sit too well with many group styles especially while PUGging. As you're in a static group, I'm sure the group will build tactics that just work when you're playing together. Be aware that beyond level 10 you will start to need to squeeze points out of AC if you truly wish to remain untouchable, and this means acquiring gear including greensteel items (which takes enough time to be effectively considered rare if you don't play a lot) and other rare-ish stuff. In contrast, with the best available "vendor trash" stat and skill items and max ranks in your trap skills you should have no issues with them at level right up to level 20.

And finally, stealth - it does work pretty darn well - there are youtube videos of people solo stealthing certain epic quests - but just be aware that when you interact with things, like pulling a lever, your stealth is broken! Same for invisibility... beware patrolling mobs - time your reappearances for when their backs are turned and you'll be ok.

[Meetch1972]

well, thats not exactly what i was thinking, But you have peaked my interest. But yes, stealthy, spell caster, that has some neat group support tricks, and can deal with traps and locks.,

Btw, is there a knock spell? if so does it open up just about everything like in pnp>?


and yes.. my pnp, and 2nd eddition rules is very much coloring what i think of when i think of multiclass.

Yes, there is a knock spell. I'm not sure what DCs you can hit with it - but you probably won't need it as any half decent trap monkey will have enough ranks in the skill and the gear to enhance that to open pretty much anything if they roll high enough. (Edit: I say this as you cannot break a lock, but you can make a trap control box explode in your face). Many 1 or 2 rogue splash characters can do it - wizards are particularly good at it due to their high int.

Are you planning on having a pure caster in your static group? Properly built and geared, they are the current top dog as far as DPS is concerned. You just want to have enough bulky bodies between them and the opponent if they can't one-shot kill them. Buffing, crowd control and nuking can be pretty much covered by the one character - but if they slot more offensive spells, pushing the responsibility of buffs onto a secondary support character may be good for the team. Remember not to overlap too much with the divine's buffing abilities too.

And finally, probably the best thing you can do as you plan to multiclass if you haven't already is grab the ddo character planner NOW and play with the level progression to see how you can squeeze out higher numbers where they matter. Follow the link from the first post in this thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=194531 - you can export the build to the forum for feedback if you wish, or just use it as "the plan".

[ferrite]

The biggest reason to use weapon finesse is if you are completely dumping strength and are relying on weapon procs to hurt things. And you cannot hit the same numbers with dex as you can with strength, so your to-hit on a maxed out character will always be lower.

I tend to agree, as a player who leveled a toon from 1 to 20 with finesse, just out of curiosity and boredom, I can tell you right now it ain't worth it, no way no how (twf finesse with imp crit rapiers, so pretty much max critting going on there)

That's not to say it isn't.. interesting, you're basically restricted to certain weapons and must change your mindset to depend on procs in quick succession, rapiers and such. And on paper, it does sound good (as in PnP). But the reality of it is, in DDO its just not worth the effort at all, primarily due to the nerfing of CON weapons, seeker and what little damage you'll wind up doing compared to your neighbor, that guy with the Big Axe who just decimated that mob while you whittle away at your opponent.. whittling and whittling..

The developers have clearly shown, through consistent nerfing of every alternative method (short of the occasional epic finesse oddity) that they prefer brute strength builds over pretty much anything else.. as its the only thing that hasn't seen the nerf bat yet.

At this point I recommend against finesse builds for the reasons stated above.

[treehugger20]

Ok.. im sold on the HP thing.. My latest stats are 12/16/14/16/10/10 *didnt want negitive a wis or chr, and being a halfling, going to 13 str will cost 2 points, so id have to cut down to -1 modifier on both wis and char, to get to 14, and i dont like the trade off.. now im consitering taking tough at next feat just so i can start spending racial bonuses!

Thinking more about weapon finesse, Maybe i should go with ranged weapon and grab some crossbow bonues. Mechanic+pointblank, relaod speed, and perhaps another ranged feat, firing from stealth might help take down something key.


im currious what people think about 7 wiz, vrs 14 wiz. 14 = higher DC, more spells, more effective spells, 7 wiz, a few key spells that dont mater with scaling, a few spells that will scale enough, And i get my magical fire, which i can add about half of all fire enhancements including some nice race bonuses atleast seam nice, and half the ranks get almost 2/3rds the total mod so thats still pretty impresive i would think. atleast number wise seams like it would be pretty damaging.

the 14 rogue, with enhancements, looks like i can cover up some of what im loosing with enhancements if i become more specialized,, the lvl 6 mechanic, would obviously be relying on the spells more with a little rogue play. The range of spells seems decent, but really i guess it all comes down to how much DC i can overcome. Or how many spells will remain effective.. It just has me thiniking that a slightly more focused rouge, with some tricks at high lvl, might be a bit more usefull, than the weaker unless there is enough spells that can be boosted enough, along with a few being able to get enough DC's to make um useable.

as i said though, this character is a static group thing, and ment for tactical play. I'd like to think that unique game play might make it more viable, vrs fitting into the "normal group" game play.

[Olath_Senger]

I agree with Redicular; I think you'd really enjoy playing as a Bard. It's got all the buffing spells you want, plus healing spells, and it'll be incredibly better overall than your proposed 13 Rogue/7 Wizard or 14 Wizard/6 Rogue. Ubongwah has written a couple Arcane Archer bard builds, linked here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=295551). Choose the 2 Rogue/2 Ranger/16 Bard one in the second post. Only thing is that, personally, I'd go 14 Str/16 Dex/13 Con/12 Int/12 Cha as a 28-point. It's a bit tight, but it should work decently.

[NaturalHazard]

yes it does, but its not worth it imo

hob

I have it and I have to agree with hob, often my strength is higher than my dex with all the boosts that are available in game to boost your str into silly numbers.

[Crann]

im currious what people think about 7 wiz, vrs 14 wiz.

Both are horribly underpowered....20 wiz or 18 wiz...no less unless it is on a super tr'ed/geared build.
One wiz could be ok if you are just in need of it for a Pre-like AA, or if you are looking for wand use because you cant get a good UMD.

Your firewall, and fireballs will be ineffective...your dc will be so low that evasion mobs will rarely take any damage, and others will almost always save for half. That means you will need to cast 3, 4, or 5 times as many for the same effect as a pure wiz.....only now you only have half or less of the spell point pool.

Its easy to say that you can just through a Wall of Fire out there, and wait for the mobs to burn in it, but you really need to look at what gives them power. The base spell damage is 2d6 plus one per caster level. This is horrible damage, and would take forever to kill something with hundreds, or thousands of HP.

The power of this spell, and all other damaging spells in DDO lies in amplification. There are many ways to amplify damage, not going into that in detail, but they all rely on levels, feats, enhancements, and/or equipment.

The largest part of this comes from enhancements, that only grow in power as you add caster levels.

Can't say it enough...well, I can one last time.....deep caster splashes are a bad idea for a new player.

Another way to put it is if you bring a 13 Rogue/7 Wiz into a level 20 dungeon, you will be as effect as a level 13 Rogue and a level 7 Wiz. You wouldn't be effective at all.

[Psiandron]

Both are horribly underpowered....20 wiz or 18 wiz...no less unless it is on a super tr'ed/geared build.
One wiz could be ok if you are just in need of it for a Pre-like AA, or if you are looking for wand use because you cant get a good UMD.

Your firewall, and fireballs will be ineffective...your dc will be so low that evasion mobs will rarely take any damage, and others will almost always save for half. That means you will need to cast 3, 4, or 5 times as many for the same effect as a pure wiz.....only now you only have half or less of the spell point pool.

Its easy to say that you can just through a Wall of Fire out there, and wait for the mobs to burn in it, but you really need to look at what gives them power. The base spell damage is 2d6 plus one per caster level. This is horrible damage, and would take forever to kill something with hundreds, or thousands of HP.

The power of this spell, and all other damaging spells in DDO lies in amplification. There are many ways to amplify damage, not going into that in detail, but they all rely on levels, feats, enhancements, and/or equipment.

The largest part of this comes from enhancements, that only grow in power as you add caster levels.

Can't say it enough...well, I can one last time.....deep caster splashes are a bad idea for a new player.

Another way to put it is if you bring a 13 Rogue/7 Wiz into a level 20 dungeon, you will be as effect as a level 13 Rogue and a level 7 Wiz. You wouldn't be effective at all.

^ Good advice here.

First off you'll be amazed at how far 2 levels of rogue goes. At low levels you'll be able to fight/SA fairly well, but all that will dry up as you approach mid-levels. Your ability to use magic will become really potent and I doubt you'll need to be convinced to keep progressing as a mage. Your Int will give you tremendous numbers on Search and DD. You should be able to get well into the 50s on both by the time your 20, assuming a +15 item. I'd take your rogue levels at 1st and say 5th.



*edit, another thing i was noticing, what about the heightened feat? the one that decreases the chance for something to resist the spell,. I also noticed that there were enhancements that also improved spell penetration. (does that mean lowers chance a monster can resist?) I guess what im saying, 14 lvls of wizzard, with many feats, and highten, could that overcome the spell lvl deficit? aka, missing 6 spell lvls? Then the rogue side would definatly be less, and id have to really do some thinking on how to deal with that..


Heighten is great, it raises any spell you cast to the highest level that you can cast, which raises that spell in terms of spell penetration and difficulty check. (If you haven't read these, you should: http://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_resistance and http://ddowiki.com/page/Difficulty_class) Heighten won't really do much if you're only raising a 3rd level spell to a 5th or 6th level spell. It's power comes when you jack that same 3rd level spell to 9th. Funny thing is that bringing a 6th level spell to 9th also makes a huge difference.

Also, there's a lot of other feats that you'll want/need (more good reason to stay away from weapon finesse :)): Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus (You may even want to take them for multiple schools of magic as they raise the DCs of your spells of that school), Spell Pen, Greater Spell Pen (more important for CC wizzies, but always good to have), Quicken (gets your casting over with and keeps you from getting interupted), Maximize (increases spell damage by 100%), Empower (increases spell damage by 50% and stacks with maximize), Extend (double the duration of timed spells like your buffs for example), and Toughness because everyone needs moar HPs.

You may be able to do something more like what you're suggesting when you've TRed a few times as past-life passive feats add up to make you significantly more powerful than a first-life wizzy. Also, if you want to go with a CC guy, going Elf helps a lot as you get Elven Arcanum as an enhancement which only gives you +20 Sp per time taken, but also adds +1 to your spell pen.

Hope this helps. Good luck. :)

[treehugger20]

yes, the links, and everything you all have said has helped a lot, and given me much to ponder about. But you all keep saying things that challenges the gamer in me. I've always enjoyed playing something that is percieved as underpowered and then play the end game with them and do well.

the one thing i do like, is most of the problems i forsee with this type of character are all much later in the characters life, which works for me. It will give me reason to lvl something else along with this one, just incase i decide one day i find that the character no longer works for me and the group. I have no problems abandoning a character ment for the lvl 10 world if i find its just not gonna work. Im an alt-aholic anyway..


I am currious though what people think about the effectivness of a lvl 2 rouge.. what kinds of things do you have to give up?

If you were to do this character as a 2 rouge what kinda stats would you use, And what kinda things would you focus on? with what you were all saying about enhancements, I just see so many that look like they would help, that need more lvls of rouge so what do you do about that aspect?



ohh one other Quick Q, I bought the drow unlock, and used it on another server. (i thought it was unlimited unlocks, but you only get one..) If i delete the Drow i made, can i make another? or does it vanish forever?

[xSeverinax]

Just to give you an idea about roles and different classes, I have a Half Elf toon which is built as Bard - virtuoso (16) / Fighter (2) / Rogue (2). Now admittedly he is a second lifer, and reasonably well geared - though most of his gear comes from life 2, as I was told to rush through life 1 and TR as fast as possible.

However, I can main heal the group in quests at level on Hard, and some on elite with a good group. I can fight with a bow (arcane archer) or hand to hand (20 strength) but prefer not to melee. I can also get traps in epic quests - so far completed Bargain Bazaar, Partycrashers, Snitch and Chronoscope.

With only 2 levels of rogue I have had to make tough choices. My spot is good enough for elite, but not epic. That said, in the epic quests I run, I already know the trap locations. I have yet to run an unfamilliar epic so will wait and see how much of a handicap that will be. Also my sneak/hide are not up to epic standard. On my rogue (first life) I was able to solo eClaw in Red Fens using the steath method, not a chance in hell on this toon. Plus also sneak damage sucks in melee, but then he isn't built for melee in epic or even elite end game content.

All in all it is a very versatile toon, able to give out buffs if there isn't a caster, primary heal if no healer, and can still take down traps, provide cc through songs and dps through arcane archer. Might be something for you to think about. Stat wise you need to get Int, Con and Charisma up as high as possible, can't dump on dex or wisdom either as they are both needed. My build was very tight on stats, and none of them are as high as I have on other toons - my caster has a 48 int when buffed, my highest on my bard is 34 Charisma buffed. Possibly hit 38 when I get a +3 exceptional and either a +4 tome, +7 charisma item or litany.