No empower

[tekkentroop]

My wiz and my arti dont have the empower spell feat. I dont really like empower, its a lot more inefficient than maximize, and adds only 25% damage when maximize is running. By not taking it, I save a feat and the AP for the improved metamagic enhancements, and in the end, my damage/sp ratio is a lot better.

There are good reasons to use empower, which arent given on my two chars:

-On meta-able SLAs its practically free damage, so evocation archmages, sorcs, clerics (RS burst), and fvs (healing or searing light capstone) gain from empower even if not running it on their main nukes.

-Sorcs and fvs have more sp to burn. They might be able afford empowered spells in many situations.

-Fvs dont have efficient maximize, but do have efficient empower enhancements which closes the efficiency gap between maximize and empower. They should still take both.

Do you run empower 24/7 on your nuking spells? if yes, on which chars?

[Mubjon]

My wiz and my arti dont have the empower spell feat. I dont really like empower, its a lot more inefficient than maximize, and adds only 25% damage when maximize is running. By not taking it, I save a feat and the AP for the improved metamagic enhancements, and in the end, my damage/sp ratio is a lot better.

There are good reasons to use empower, which arent given on my two chars:

-On meta-able SLAs its practically free damage, so evocation archmages, sorcs, clerics (RS burst), and fvs (healing or searing light capstone) gain from empower even if not running it on their main nukes.

-Sorcs and fvs have more sp to burn. They might be able afford empowered spells in many situations.

-Fvs dont have efficient maximize, but do have efficient empower enhancements which closes the efficiency gap between maximize and empower. They should still take both.

Do you run empower 24/7 on your nuking spells? if yes, on which chars?

I only run the meta's 24/7 on my sorc and I have two sets of hot bars set up depending on the situation. If I have a melee running their mouth about how great they are, I turn everything on burn through the SP bar and beat him 10 to 1. If I have a good party that is working together I will just run with the clickies and keep up buffs to the best of my ability. I do run them both on SLA though it is nice seeing almost 1K dmg from an spell that cost 5 sp.

Cleric I run empower and maximize on blade barrier and divine punishment only. And of course I run every meta I can on bursts and auras.

Wizard I run them only on SLA all though my wizard is only level 13 and has just under 1300 sp. The sorc is level 17 almost 18 and has almost 2500. Cleric is level 13 and has just over 900. Sorc is first life, Cleric is first life, Wiz is second life with a cleric past life.

[FooWonk]

Do you run empower 24/7 on your nuking spells? if yes, on which chars?

Favored Soul 20:
° Mass Cure Light Wounds
° Blade Barrier
° Sovereign Host SLA
° Searing Light
° Divine Punishment
° Holy Smite

Pale Master Enchanter 20:
° Ice Storm
° Acid Fog
° Meteor Storm
° Disintegrate
° Negative Energy Burst

Artificer 16 / Monk 2:
° Blade Barrier
° Curative Admixture: Cure Serious Wounds

Before the spell pass, I used Empower on quite a few more spells than I do now.

[sweez]

There's no reason not to have (heavy) investment in at least ice/elec (two dots) and possibly acid (BDB) on even the most DC-oriented wizard. Thus, no reason not take empower. You can't CC/instakill red/purple names, without proper spell DPS you'll be mostly useless against them.

[Darkrok]

I don't have it on my caster at the moment but my build is more targeted at soloing Elite DQ, Weapon's Shipment, and Devil Assault without much effort. Most casters I would want it just so you have that max burn option available to you.

[danotmano1998]

On a sorceror?
Absolutely. 100% on all the time, every single spell. I have 3000 sp and almost never run out.

On a wizard?
Occasionally. When that bad guy has to die really quick, or we're nearing a shrine and I can let loose.

On a cleric?
VERY occasionally. As the group/situation/sp permits.

On a FvS?
No, except on my Divine Punishments. (As my guy is mostly melee specced anyhow.)


But really, what other feat gives you an additional 50% boost to your base damage? (So yes, I always take this feat on a caster.)
(Ok, by your math 25%, but that's splitting hairs, IMO.)

[LeLoric]

Empower is a must for any arcane caster.

[WielderofGigantus]

Empower is a must for any arcane caster.
Not for the CC'ers and the insta-killers.


To the OP: After a certain point, namely once I've gotten enough Efficient Metamagic gear equipped and enough points spent on enhancements to reduce their cost, I just turn on the metamagics and leave them on.

[LeLoric]

Not for the CC'ers and the insta-killers.


To the OP: After a certain point, namely once I've gotten enough Efficient Metamagic gear equipped and enough points spent on enhancements to reduce their cost, I just turn on the metamagics and leave them on.

Yes even then. If you don't have empower as an option for those times you can't cc/instakill you are gimp. Theres no way around it.

Pale masters also want for their neb and wf arcanes for better non recon heals.

[FooWonk]

The efficiency of empower depends entirely on the base SP cost of a spell.

20 SP or less
Both maximize & empower are inefficient; use only when you have SP to burn.

25 SP
Maximize is 100% efficient. Maximize+empower is still close enough with SP/Damage efficiency to be worth using 100% of the time.

30 SP
Empower is 100% efficient. Maximize+empower is a complete win.

35+ SP
Maximize+empower is the only way to cast these spells. Anything else is just wasting SP.

[Nevthial]

Always on a nuker. sp is a non-issue in DDO now.

[-Zephyr-]

Yes even then. If you don't have empower as an option for those times you can't cc/instakill you are gimp. Theres no way around it.

Pale masters also want for their neb and wf arcanes for better non recon heals.

I know some of the necro specc wizzies in my guild have given up Empower, and they're far from being gimps.
I still have it myself because I like things to die fast (even that orange/red named in the epic I'm soloing), but I know it would be more SP efficient to just turn empower off and kite a little longer.

Against purple names, I truly hope your party isn't relying on the added DPS you have from empower. And again, if you happen to use your whole SP bar on that boss, you'll do more damage over the course by having empower off...

All this is counting you have maximize always on, of course.
I know my melee FvS has empower heal instead of empower, even if he has enough hamp to justify switching them.
My cleric doesn't have empower and won't take it, the SP pool is just too short... But he's probably gimp anyway, so won't discuss that one too much.

My evoker FvS on the other hand, swapped empower heal for empower when he got lvl 8, had maximize from level 3, and already never turns them off. But then again, he's level 10 in a guild static party, zerging faster is better.

[OsOscarius]

Yes even then. If you don't have empower as an option for those times you can't cc/instakill you are gimp. Theres no way around it.


I'm gimp to begin with so...:p
I don't use empower atm the moment as a first-life wizzy. I feel like I'd like to have it, but I can't really find one feat to drop.

Still, it's "only" 25% extra damage. Which is alot, I'll give you that, but not really something I've been hurting from so far.
A bigger problem is that I run out of sp before hp. Seeing as I don't really need to burst that often I can't see how I'll be more sp efficient by having empower on.
But I still haven't stepped into the harder epics (House P and eClaw all the way.)

However, once I TR I'll probably be able to fit it in. (SF:Enchant to Past life. gSpell pen to Empower)

[Nevthial]

Against purple names, I truly hope your party isn't relying on the added DPS you have from empower. And again, if you happen to use your whole SP bar on that boss, you'll do more damage over the course by having empower off...

If you factor in crit multipliers, it is enough of a damage boost with maximize and empower both active to make them efficient to use together all the time for this application.

[LeLoric]

I know some of the necro specc wizzies in my guild have given up Empower, and they're far from being gimps.
I still have it myself because I like things to die fast (even that orange/red named in the epic I'm soloing), but I know it would be more SP efficient to just turn empower off and kite a little longer.

Against purple names, I truly hope your party isn't relying on the added DPS you have from empower. And again, if you happen to use your whole SP bar on that boss, you'll do more damage over the course by having empower off...

All this is counting you have maximize always on, of course.
I know my melee FvS has empower heal instead of empower, even if he has enough hamp to justify switching them.
My cleric doesn't have empower and won't take it, the SP pool is just too short... But he's probably gimp anyway, so won't discuss that one too much.

My evoker FvS on the other hand, swapped empower heal for empower when he got lvl 8, had maximize from level 3, and already never turns them off. But then again, he's level 10 in a guild static party, zerging faster is better.

Much of what I say is towards an arcane like I said in my previous post so this generally applies to them not divines.

Sp efficiency is far from the key factor here. I agree with what you said but let's look at what longer fights mean.

More healing, if you heal yourself from your blue bar its sp inefficient otherwise its a tax on others resources.

More rebuffing: The longer the fight takes the more haste/displace/other buffs it takes up meaning you have to rebuff sooner and more often in the quest.

more time: time is a limited resource I value much more than sp empower is more time efficient.

As for purple names some of them I am required to nuke. Shroud I nuke all out part 4 and 5 for most norm and even hard runs I never run out with empower on. Epic Demon queen is a nuke fest. Abbot also. Tod and vod are nuke fests. Using good nuking techniques you likely rarely run out of sp in any of these. If I can be one of the top dps characters in the group during these why wouldnt I. People don't take more than one caster in things like shroud because of gimp casters that don't take empower.

[Kinerd]

There's no reason not to have (heavy) investment in at least ice/elec (two dots) and possibly acid (BDB) on even the most DC-oriented wizard. Thus, no reason not take empower. You can't CC/instakill red/purple names, without proper spell DPS you'll be mostly useless against them.Empower and Maximize is only 25% over Maximize, though, is the point. Is 80% spell DPS really "mostly useless"?

Wizards have a lot of feats but they don't have that many, especially first lifers that need Spell Pen. For instance, my wizard went:
Mental Toughness - AM pre-req
Heighten, SF/GSF Enchant, Spell Pen, Greater SP - CC
SF/GSF Necro (also Spell Pens) - instant kills
SF Conjuration - Web SLA
Maximize - DPS
Toughness, Quicken - stay alive

Which would you drop for Empower? I'm not even sure Empower is the next most useful feat I would take to be honest.

[Kinerd]

People don't take more than one caster in things like shroud because of gimp casters that don't take empower.People don't take more than one caster because they are uninformed.

[LeLoric]

People don't take more than one caster because they are uninformed.

I wouldnt take an arcane without empower into shroud. Those with Ill take as many as I can get. It's like melees without power attack.

[WielderofGigantus]

I'm a bit confused. Why do you guys keep saying that Empower only adds 25%?

[OsOscarius]

Empower and Maximize don't multiply, instead they add together. :)

For example, say that we have maximize on giving us 200% of our normal spell damage.
Now we add empower. You might think that it would add 50% of 200%, making it 300%.

Instead it adds a flat 50%, taking us to 250%. This is an increase of 25% compared to just running maximize (which most use as a baseline. Maximize is that good. :p)

[LeLoric]

Empower and Maximize don't multiply, instead they add together. :)

For example, say that we have maximize on giving us 200% of our normal spell damage.
Now we add empower. You might think that it would add 50% of 200%, making it 300%.

Instead it adds a flat 50%, taking us to 250%. This is an increase of 25% compared to just running maximize (which most use as a baseline. Maximize is that good. :p)

It's statistical manipulation used to make empower seem less.

It could just as easily be said that empower gives a full 50% for 150% total dmg and maximize only adds 66% onto that.

Empower is that good its only 16% behind maximize but at cheaper sp costs :D

See what I did there?

[pSINNa]

My cleric - runs with heighen/maximise/empower/empower heal on at all times, i only really switch quicken on and off as the situation demands.

Same for my fvs (he also has extend and again has that switched on situationaly).

My Wizard, same as my fvs. (no empower heal obviously)

My Arti, same as my Wizard.

When i was doing sorc lives (don't have a permanent sorc) same as my Wizard.

Yup, if it has damage spells, then i run empower and maximise permanently as soon as i hit around lvl 15 or so - by then they're all wearing greensteel and raid loot to boost sp, knowing when and where to cast being better for conservation for me then turning off potential damage when i want it.

My two cents, Coit out~

[good_ole_corwin]

Wizards have a lot of feats but they don't have that many, especially first lifers that need Spell Pen. For instance, my wizard went:
Mental Toughness - AM pre-req
Heighten, SF/GSF Enchant, Spell Pen, Greater SP - CC
SF/GSF Necro (also Spell Pens) - instant kills
SF Conjuration - Web SLA
Maximize - DPS
Toughness, Quicken - stay alive

Which would you drop for Empower?

One of the greater focuses. +/- 1 to DCs of your spells means that out of every 20 things you try to CC or instakill, you get/lose 1 success, statistically speaking. So, 1 less trash mob out of every 20 (making it about 5 mobs per usual quest?), or 25% extra DPS on bosses?

[OsOscarius]

(EDIT: As always I'm a slowpoke. This post is aimed at LeLoric. :p)

Sure, that works. I'm not saying that empower is bad in any sort of way. Like I said, I would like to have it on my wizzy.

I personally see maximize as a must for any sort of offensive caster, it's simply great for the single feat and the spell cost.
Also, the spell cost means that it will be more sp-efficient than empower for the majority of the spells that you will cast.
Meaning that you will most likely never run *only* empower on a spell.

Therefore, I look at it like this: "What will empower give me on my current build?" and the answer is then 25% extra damage.
Or: "What's the difference between running empower+maximize vs. only running Maximize". The answer there being 25% extra or 20% less damage.

It IS good so I promise; I'll take it as soon I get my DC's/Spell pen to reasonable levels. :p

[voodoogroves]

I'm one of those crazy guys that rarely turns off empower or maximize. Or Heighten. Or quicken.

I sometimes turn it off if I'm going to slow-burn epic mobs down from a distance (like, say, scorpion room in eADQ) and I want to conserve SP somewhat. Otherwise, it's basically always on.

[Kinerd]

I wouldnt take an arcane without empower into shroud. Those with Ill take as many as I can get. It's like melees without power attack.This is pretty baffling. Items and enhancements are much more important for spell DPS than Empower. Arcane 1 gets 50% Manip and Superior Element 5 clickies and does 302 DPS before crits. Arcane 2 only gets 20% Manip and Greater Potency but throws on Empower and does 267 DPS. The feat's contributions are just not big enough to overpower other decisions.

If you're saying you would only take an arcane with Empower and sufficient enhancements, why? You're not beating 300 DPS with most melee puggers.
It's statistical manipulation used to make empower seem less.

It could just as easily be said that empower gives a full 50% for 150% total dmg and maximize only adds 66% onto that.

Empower is that good its only 16% behind maximize but at cheaper sp costs

See what I did there?It is most certainly not. Everyone agrees that Maximize is worth getting and using. What is at issue is whether Empower is also worth getting. It only makes sense to use Maximize as the baseline.

Your order of operation would only apply if everyone agreed Empower was worth getting and using, and we were in disagreement over whether Maximize was also worth getting. It's not "statistical manipulation", it's using the numbers relevant to our conversation.

[Kinerd]

One of the greater focuses. +/- 1 to DCs of your spells means that out of every 20 things you try to CC or instakill, you get/lose 1 success, statistically speaking. So, 1 less trash mob out of every 20 (making it about 5 mobs per usual quest?), or 25% extra DPS on bosses?My DC stuff is about 4-6 times as important as my boss DPS, though. My wizard is the only one in the group doing CC (sometimes a monk type chips in), is one of two or three doing instant kills, everyone does boss DPS. There's also a great post here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4201670&postcount=21) by k1ngpin that puts DC increases in a different light: how much more likely am I to get every monster in any given group by increasing DC? It's not just a question of pride, getting every or nearly every monster is frequently of tangible benefit.

[BladeTricks]

Empower is a no-brainer on any arcane. In 1 feat, you get an instant 25% more boss DPS. Divines have other tasks during epic/raid boss beatdown. Arcanes on the other hand...

That's even before the fact that Sorcerers don't pay a sp more for Empower on their SLAs.

[trog_star]

on my cleric i run empower for bursts, BB, cometfall and DP

dont have empower on my lvl 14 PM yet

[good_ole_corwin]

My DC stuff is about 4-6 times as important as my boss DPS, though. My wizard is the only one in the group doing CC (sometimes a monk type chips in), is one of two or three doing instant kills, everyone does boss DPS. There's also a great post here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4201670&postcount=21) by k1ngpin that puts DC increases in a different light: how much more likely am I to get every monster in any given group by increasing DC? It's not just a question of pride, getting every or nearly every monster is frequently of tangible benefit.

Trash mobs dont come in groups of hundreds at the same time, the difference 1 DC makes will be 1-2 trash mobs CCed or not at a time, tops. Thats nothing, unless your group has deeper problems than you missing 1 DC from your theoretical maximum, killing a trash mob is a question of seconds, no real danger to the party. Bosses pose several orders of magnitude greater danger than 1-2 trash mobs in MOST situations and 25% difference in your DPS there can make a significant contribution.

[WielderofGigantus]

Empower and Maximize don't multiply, instead they add together. :)

For example, say that we have maximize on giving us 200% of our normal spell damage.
Now we add empower. You might think that it would add 50% of 200%, making it 300%.

Instead it adds a flat 50%, taking us to 250%. This is an increase of 25% compared to just running maximize (which most use as a baseline. Maximize is that good. :p)

Going by that logic, Maximize is only adds 60%.

[LordPiglet]

People don't take more than one caster because they are uninformed.

Lol, I got into a disagreement with sorc (I was on my paly) about how many arcanes should be in shroud. I was the one in favor of more arcanes...

[SirValentine]

Do you run empower 24/7 on your nuking spells? if yes, on which chars?


Yes, on Clr, Wiz, FvS.

I did at one point think about (and eventually reject) a build that skips Maximize and Empower purely in favor of DCs. I also did a build that did skip both Maximize and Empower, in favor of melee.

But I'm not that interested in half measures; either I'm going to forego nuking, or I'm going to be dang good at it, which wants both feats.

I don't buy the claim not using Empower is somehow more efficient; faster killing is more efficient. Kiting stuff around for a long time because your spell DPS is deliberately sub-par isn't what I'd call efficient.

[Faent]

Um, what feats did you take if you don't have room for Empower? That doesn't make sense. Every wizard has room for Empower.

[LeLoric]

This is pretty baffling. Items and enhancements are much more important for spell DPS than Empower. Arcane 1 gets 50% Manip and Superior Element 5 clickies and does 302 DPS before crits. Arcane 2 only gets 20% Manip and Greater Potency but throws on Empower and does 267 DPS. The feat's contributions are just not big enough to overpower other decisions.

If you're saying you would only take an arcane with Empower and sufficient enhancements, why? You're not beating 300 DPS with most melee puggers.It is most certainly not. Everyone agrees that Maximize is worth getting and using. What is at issue is whether Empower is also worth getting. It only makes sense to use Maximize as the baseline.

Your order of operation would only apply if everyone agreed Empower was worth getting and using, and we were in disagreement over whether Maximize was also worth getting. It's not "statistical manipulation", it's using the numbers relevant to our conversation.

Oh its still manipulation any way you cut it. Just as mie was. Maximize is an additional multiplier just as empower is. To count it as baseline is not really justifyable when comparing the other unless you were forced to take maximize.

The consensus among players is take empower look at every high end caster build in the game right now they all have empower. If you don't you are not capable of putting out dmg as much as someone that does. You are "gimp" when it comes to dmg dealing. To be honest before this thread I didnt really think anyone other than a brand new player would consider not taking empower.

Your dps numbers are incorrect as there is no factor for spell dc. If your talking just no save dots then you aren't dps'ing right for many fights. All but a handful of raid /epic fights generally aren't long enough to make dots worthwhile. Most of those aren't long enough that you can't mix in some other spells. I find you cut melees pretty short on thios too especially since for normal runs at least many raid bosses are running at sub 50% fort.

Most people against empower in this thread cite sp efficiency. For trash mob nuking it should be judged as casts per kill. Fact is with empower on you will kill something almost always in at least 1 less cast per kill. This makes the sp efficiency you lost worthless.

Truth is most mobs are balanced against empower and maximize combined. If using single shot aoe blasts with empower you can often take out a large group in 2-3 casts. Good crits can single shot mobs. This is usually the same throughout the levelling process as hp scale pretty well with max and empowered spells. Without empower you take 4-5 casts. Crits can lower this some but your crits are multiplicatively less without empower.

Resistance is a huge factor in empower's favor too. Many mobs in this game have resistances. Empower helps power through those so much better then multiple casts at lower sp usage. Firewall/icestorm/acid rain are generally useless on many more mobs without empower than with.

As a pale master your best and really only big heal is enough reason to take empower just on it's own. Wf arcanes with max/empowered repair critical as a combo to recon are so much more reliably durable. Ask any wf arcane in epic lob while kiting dogs in a rain of blades how important this can be.

And lastly once again the most precious resource in this game is time. Everyone has a limited amount of time to play and the faster you can achieve things the better you are at conserving time. Empower is better than any other choice at conserving time other than maximize for an arcane caster.

[fuzzy1guy]

Redacted

[OsOscarius]

Um, what feats did you take if you don't have room for Empower? That doesn't make sense. Every wizard has room for Empower.

Currently, as a first-lifer WF PM:

Heighten
Maximize
Quicken
SF/GSF Necro
Toughness


These can't really be dropped.


Spell pen/Greater spell pen


As a first lifer this is also rather hard to drop, dropping one can be easier once I TR


Insightful reflexes
Extend
Mental Toughness
SF:Enchant


Optional things, listed roughly in the way that I'd like to keep them.

I've been loving having a good reflex save.
Extend is sheer luxury. I hate short auras. :p
Mental toughness is for unlocking Wraith aswell as getting the option to re-spec to AM if I want. The 100sp is just gravy (though I like it.)
I might just drop enchant once I get my +2 exc. int. The problem is that many groups will want the wizzy to CC "properly" and my current low DC's don't really help...

[Faent]

Currently, as a first-lifer WF PM:

Drop Mental Toughness. That's obvious.

[pHo3nix]

All my casters run with all their metas active 24/7, except quicken (and extend on my PM) for buffs, never got any sp issues (no, i do not use sp pots, i hate them :) ).

Empower is like PA for melees, a must have.

It all depends on your playstyle: if you unleash your spells on every single mob you see then you are going to run out of sp pretty fast and you are inefficient; if you zerg to red alert and then start killing then you'll see that empower is great and really sp (and time) efficient ;)

[Infant]

All my casters run with all their metas active 24/7, except quicken (and extend on my PM) for buffs, never got any sp issues (no, i do not use sp pots, i hate them :) ).

Empower is like PA for melees, a must have.

It all depends on your playstyle: if you unleash your spells on every single mob you see then you are going to run out of sp pretty fast and you are inefficient; if you zerg to red alert and then start killing then you'll see that empower is great and really sp (and time) efficient ;)

I can imagine that turning Empower off for DOTs makes sense for some long endurance fights where you run out of SP. Maybe elite Shroud?

Infant

[Kriogen]

Both Emp and Max always on.

Its like Power Attack for melee. Do I want to damage or just tickle.

Mana efficiency comes from AoE and "one turn advantage". I don't want to waste mana on a single CR0.25 kobold, I want to nuke a small armada with a single spell. And I don't want to recast it. Maybe "recast" is mana efficient, but its "time". I mean I could drop dead in that time or I'll take damage and then have to heal myself. Heal is also mana.

[nivarch]

I can imagine that turning Empower off for DOTs makes sense for some long endurance fights where you run out of SP. Maybe elite Shroud?

Infant

On endurance fight "your" SP efficiency matters, but making the fight as short as possible do matter too, mainly to save Healers SP/melee actions boosts.
You have to find the right balance between mana dumping and going for the most SP efficient method.

Knowing that Harry has about 60 cold resist on elite, if you cast Niac, you'll need to have empower on (at least on Niac) or it will become *very* SP inefficient.

Note that for fights longer than 3 minutes, you really should turn empower on when you run eardweller.

[stoerm]

To answer your survey.

1st life capped WF PM:
- Empower and Quicken on always only for some spells (<3 Turbine). Situationally put on for all spells.
- Maximize and Heighten always on.

Especially since I solo quite a bit, my own SP conservation is more important than quick DPS. With cheap self heals using the aura, having to kill quickly is not usually an issue.

I think it's situational, so loving the "there is only one true way" tone in some of the posts.

[Crann]

Another vote for Empower....each character I play that casts turns it on and leaves it on. A few situatuonal spells I customize to turn off Empower and Max (Soundburst)

Something that hasn't been mentioned, and seems to get overlooked in the Melee DPS conversations from time to time, is that your DPS statistic is far more important against bosses then it is against trash. Against trash it means 3 hits or casts instead of 4, it is rarely as big of a deal as what happens when you get to the boss.

I like the Power attack analogy, but I'd like to think of it as a Barb who doesn't use take Frenzy because he wants to conserve hit points.

You save hitpoints by ending the fight faster. Same goes for spell points.

[korsat]

on my wiz pm:
empower and maximize ALWAYS on, extended and quicken off only for mass buffs in the beginning of the quest, heighten off only when i'm tanking and i need some negative energy burst without wasting too many sp.

[OsOscarius]

Bah, I own two of those flawless dragonshard and the plat cost for a feat change isn't crippling.
Will try out empower for a couple of days and see how I like it. :)

Will most probably miss wraith form though, even if it's mostly for claw. :p

[Candela90]

Im honestly not using empower, Not on wizzy and not on fvs.
On wizzy i would probably just go out of mana really quickly, and on fvs i have hard time fitting it in.
So.. yeah. think its not worth it so much.
Especially u get an epic dagger from Crystal cove with 3 uses of free maximize. Really usefull while DoTing a boss and all.
But on a sorc I would never drop empower.

[stoerm]

Just because the Master Transmuter's staff doesn't give a +Lore on it doesn't mean it's bad. You don't need to be at the peak of DPS on a PM as you level. Hell, you certainly don't need to be at cap. Instant death spells are going to be your bread and butter. Damage spells are for when they're on cooldown and boss fights.

Discuss in relation to requiring Empower on a PM.

[pHo3nix]

To answer your survey.

1st life capped WF PM:
- Empower and Quicken on always only for some spells (<3 Turbine). Situationally put on for all spells.
- Maximize and Heighten always on.

Especially since I solo quite a bit, my own SP conservation is more important than quick DPS. With cheap self heals using the aura, having to kill quickly is not usually an issue.

I think it's situational, so loving the "there is only one true way" tone in some of the posts.

There is only 1 true way of running quests as fast as possible, and that is with maximize+empower on ;) Sure, you can complete almost anything without metas or running around with mastertouch and a greataxe, but those don't seem 2 efficient ways of getting the job done :)

Soloing on a caster means even more sp: you are the only one in the quest, so everything is attacking you and refilling your sp. It's when you group that torc+conc opp are less valuable, cause the aggro is on other people too :)

[danotmano1998]

Not taking the feat that makes your damage increase 25% (or 50% depending on how you look at it) is a bit silly in my eyes.

I'm not saying that it's absolutely mandatory for all casters..
But on a sorceror who has all those lovely SLA's and the sp cost is a flat amount?

What possible reason could justify throwing away all that extra damage?
This is an honest question!
I'd love to hear a good solid reason why..

Here's a solid number...
Say your polar ray does a very modest 1K damage on a hit. You'd be effectively throwing away 250 points of damage right there. And that doesn't even count crits!!

There's a certain satisfaction when you land that ray on a fire elemental and do over 3 thousand damage. Maybe it's just me, but I like my big numbers. A lot.
Wouldn't trade them for the world.

And then if you decide to invest in the reduction of the metas (AP's) and have a couple of pieces of efficient metamagic gear, you're really only going to save a few measly spell points per cast. Having a field of dead enemies and an empty blue bar is far better than 1/2 the party dead and a nearly full blue bar. But maybe that's just me. (And I have yet to run out on my sorceror, even without a torc!)

My entire purpose as a sorceror is to nuke, nuke, nuke. And when that's done, repeat. Anything that reduces your effectiveness in the primary role of your class is not a good choice in my eyes.

[Raoull]

Hmmm... on my Archmage (necro/conj) I've been waffling on what I wanted my last feat to be. I'm considering:

Greater Conjure Focus (yes, I realize I can't take that at 20 and would need to featswap first): I do love the web SLA, and +1 DC seems worthwhile

Enchantment Focus: Hypno SLA seems good, and my Enchant DCs are a bit low

Empower: moar dots


I was leaning toward Enchantment Focus, figuring the extra SLA would be not only minor cheap CC, but using it on guys in my disco balls would dramatically improve my DCs (1 for feat, 3 for SLA debuff).

I was thinking that DC based stuff (crowd control & instakill) was my main focus so I should keep down that path... but this thread makes me wonder.

I imagine I'd only use it for DoTTing bosses, so I wasn't figuring on taking it. But... I guess as a melee I'd never not take a feat that gave +25% damage (only thing vaguely comparable is first TWF feat)... so I guess I'm now leaning toward empower.

[mrphlegm]

Get yellow/red DA and drop that acid blast/rain wiping everything- max/emp to make sure. can easily hold aggro against barbs with dots and necrotic/polar nuking with my new PM, or even just dots. leveling wf earth savant is just lol

[Kathul]

Running a 2nd life WF PM.

I always keep empower on, for everything.

Why? Because it is effective, especially when i am spamming my necro heals along PM bolt and burst ( which hit for 150 to 400 )

[Spiffyspiffy]

Not taking empower on a wizard has exceeded the threshold of "curious build choice" to "bad design"

Not taking it on a cleric, fvs, or sorcerer has reached "put on do not group list"

[Postumus]

Always take empower for my sorcs. Why would I possibly not want another 25% damage boost? Especially for SLAs?

Usually take empower for fvs and cleric.

I use it as necessary and for spells where the SP cost justifies its use.

[sirgog]

Empower and Maximize is only 25% over Maximize, though, is the point. Is 80% spell DPS really "mostly useless"?

Wizards have a lot of feats but they don't have that many, especially first lifers that need Spell Pen. For instance, my wizard went:
Mental Toughness - AM pre-req
Heighten, SF/GSF Enchant, Spell Pen, Greater SP - CC
SF/GSF Necro (also Spell Pens) - instant kills
SF Conjuration - Web SLA
Maximize - DPS
Toughness, Quicken - stay alive

Which would you drop for Empower? I'm not even sure Empower is the next most useful feat I would take to be honest.


Power Attack adds a lot less than 25% DPS on melees, and like Empower is not always useful. Yet every melee takes it, including most characters that only melee some of the time.

The SP saving from killing a boss or resilient mob quicker and thus needing less healing, less rebuffing and the like often makes up for the extra SP cost of Empower. In fights where it will not - just turn the feat off.

In your case - I'd drop an Enchantment Focus. Heck, I'd drop both Enchantment Focuses and take Insightful Reflexes.

One more thing - on bosses with high elemental resistances, Empower is a lot more than 25% more DPS. A 480 damage Maximized Polar Ray does 255 damage through Turigulon's 225 cold resist. A 600 damage Max-Empped Polar Ray does 375 damage - 45-50% more than the 'max only' one. The gap is even bigger on Niac's Biting Cold, which ticks for 360-225 = 135 Max-Empped, but only 290-225=65 Maxxed. Adding Empower here doubles the damage of your second best damage-per-mana spell in this encounter.

[WielderofGigantus]

Not taking it on a cleric, fvs, or sorcerer has reached "put on do not group list"

Why would I take Empower on my cleric when Empowered Healing is so much better?

[Crann]

Why would I take Empower on my cleric when Empowered Healing is so much better?

Blade Barrier
Divine Punishment
Cometfall
Holy Smite

[SirValentine]

Not taking empower on a wizard has exceeded the threshold of "curious build choice" to "bad design"

Not taking it on a cleric, fvs, or sorcerer has reached "put on do not group list"

Interesting. It seems to me a far worse crime to fail to take it on a Wiz, who has 5 bonus feats to play with, than on a Clr or FvS, who are extremely feat-starved. Could much more easily see a Clr or FvS only having Maximize and not Empower, even though personally I'd prefer to have both.

Or they might not be specced for nuking at all. My Wis-dumped melee Clr didn't have Empower or Maximize. It's not like you need either for healing.

[goodspeed]

I actually had a sorc ask me why a ball of ice costed about 70 sp. I said because it's hightened, it's maxed, and it's empowered.

Then he asked me why I took empower. I said because I like to see the room die in one click instead of 2....

On a wiz I'd still take empower. Mainly for as said before their are 2 spells that should always be there. Niacs and eldar. Even on a fire based sorc taking a hit to cold dmg and spell lvs, niacs would still be great dmg against the purple.

A wizard has the ability to become anything with preperation. They can cc, they can dmg, they can instakill. To rely on one or 2 is cheating yourself. It's not wrong but don't be ****ed when your passed up for some things.

Like harry. Most common real type raid. I couldn't see any reason for a cc or insta kill. Especially in part 4. Jesus **** pales killing all the devils in 1 swoop with all hell breaking loose.

Now a wiz with specc'd cold or lightning casting niacs and eldars is invaluable. It doesn't matter if cold isn't maxed, or that harry has resistance to it. It'll still output a great number. With max and empower you can fill those rolls. Empower is just another situation feat.

[tekkentroop]

OP here...

Thanks all for the fruitful discussion. I still dont think empower is a must-have for all wizards, but I think I will integrate it in later lives of my wizard, just to have the option to crank up damage a little bit more. With the Spell Penetration past life feats, feats will be less tight, and in later lives spellpoints wont be a big issue anymore. I didnt get a torc during the first life (TRed after 20 DQ/shroud completions) but will probably do another 20 DQ this life.

On strong words from some people around here: if a wiz without empower was gimped, a sorc without spell penetration and high necro DCs would be gimped, too... it takes a few past lives and good gear to make an arcane an alrounder (nuke+cc+instakill) but its certainly worth it.

[Kinerd]

Um, what feats did you take if you don't have room for Empower? That doesn't make sense. Every wizard has room for Empower.Listed above. :)
Trash mobs dont come in groups of hundreds at the same time, the difference 1 DC makes will be 1-2 trash mobs CCed or not at a time, tops. Thats nothing, unless your group has deeper problems than you missing 1 DC from your theoretical maximum, killing a trash mob is a question of seconds, no real danger to the party. Bosses pose several orders of magnitude greater danger than 1-2 trash mobs in MOST situations and 25% difference in your DPS there can make a significant contribution.I'm not saying being a DC shy is going to cause a wipe, but neither is one person doing 80% DPS. In my experience as a cleric, I had to spend a lot more effort in runs where CC was almost-but-not-quite than when DPS was almost-but-not-quite. I mean look at Shroud, people still run that with MoPGs. There's just so much more tolerance in the game systems for low DPS.
Oh its still manipulation any way you cut it. Just as mie was. Maximize is an additional multiplier just as empower is. To count it as baseline is not really justifyable when comparing the other unless you were forced to take maximize.Nobody's forced to do anything. You and I agree about taking Maximize. You and I disagree about taking Empower. That is why Maximize is the baseline. If you want to talk to someone who agrees with you about Empower and disagrees about Maximize, feel free, but that person is not me.
Your dps numbers are incorrect as there is no factor for spell dc. If your talking just no save dots then you aren't dps'ing right for many fights. All but a handful of raid /epic fights generally aren't long enough to make dots worthwhile. Most of those aren't long enough that you can't mix in some other spells. I find you cut melees pretty short on thios too especially since for normal runs at least many raid bosses are running at sub 50% fort.The point was that with only two DoTs a very casually geared wizard without Empower outstrips most melees. Of course I mix in other spells when DPSing, but why bother calculating out exactly how much I get from them if the point's already made? If a fight's not long enough to make DoTs worthwhile, it's usually a fight I'm much more useful CCing or instant killing. As for selling melee short, in your experience, how many THF melees in pugs have an eSoS? TWFs with perfect Cannith khopeshes? Conversely, how many are THF dwarf barbs with a +2 MoPG Greataxe, no ToD sets, no epic gear? Let's reference mrphlegm's experience: "can easily hold aggro against barbs with dots and necrotic/polar nuking with my new PM, or even just dots."
No empower? You're joking right?

dammit. No wonder i can pull agro from most of the casters around. I'm the only one with empower going.


Here. Try this. start telling lfm groups you don't have empower. lets see how that works out mkay?I tell lfm groups I have a rogue and they decline me sight unseen saying they need DPS. Let's not rely on lfm groups as a source of incontrovertible truth.
But... I guess as a melee I'd never not take a feat that gave +25% damage (only thing vaguely comparable is first TWF feat)... so I guess I'm now leaning toward empower.
Power Attack adds a lot less than 25% DPS on melees, and like Empower is not always useful. Yet every melee takes it, including most characters that only melee some of the time.The trouble with the analogy is a melee's only job is to do damage (or in rare cases not take as much damage). A wizard's jobs also include CC and instant kill (or instant kill and CC). As has been demonstrated, a wizard built especially for this can still put out comparable or greater DPS to these other classes against what we all agree are the most dangerous targets. In my opinion, no one has explained how "comparable or greater" is equal to "gimp".
Now a wiz with specc'd cold or lightning casting niacs and eldars is invaluable. It doesn't matter if cold isn't maxed, or that harry has resistance to it. It'll still output a great number. With max and empower you can fill those rolls. Empower is just another situation feat.That's just it, though. If you only have Maximize, how is it that you can't capably fill those DPS roles? Not optimally (sorc), but capably? Empower doesn't unlock the Manipulation enhancements, it isn't required to wield a Superior Freeze weapon.

[goodspeed]

true, it just helps drop something quicker. I find the faster the thing dies the better. (Well mostly, a few raids ive found time and slow cc wins the race alot easier) Technically your right. You don't really need emp, hell you don't even really need max either. But it's the human factor that requires them.

The human factor is basically kind of like murphy;s law. Whatever a **** human can do to cause all kinda of hell and require a sped up process or more thinking, will always, without fail, happen.

Like delera's. I know that when 40 things bust out of the ground everywhere all I need is a stoneskin, a displace and to get to a safe spot. From there I can whip a wall of fire unmaxed/ unempowered with only my sup clicky and in 15 seconds time archers and the like are dead.

Now enter the human factor. fighter/ranger/whatever screams WOO LETS KILL EM ALL!!! and rushes into about 50 arrows. All of a sudden hp starts dropping the cleric runs after and she's dieing. And so the mage has to crank it up and wipe out everything quick. (Me id prolly just leave em die but you know.)

Same thing with raids especially shroud. Sure it's easy to avoid the blades, hell we can stand back out of the way. We have all the time in the world. Now enter human factor. Oh no 3 people died. The healer somehow died. People are running all over like headless chickens after just 1 round.

And that's why meta's are important. Because we have to watch over the human factor lol.

[good_ole_corwin]

I'm not saying being a DC shy is going to cause a wipe, but neither is one person doing 80% DPS. In my experience as a cleric, I had to spend a lot more effort in runs where CC was almost-but-not-quite than when DPS was almost-but-not-quite. I mean look at Shroud, people still run that with MoPGs. There's just so much more tolerance in the game systems for low DPS.

In my experience as currently a FvS, effort maybe, resources no. But than again thats probably because CC and instakills I can help with. Especially if using Shroud as an example, thats one of the places where DPS>CC IMHO. Sure its convenient to have somebody instakilling stuff in part 1, sure its faster to bring all the trash into webs/discos in part 2/4. But without CC, you would just change tactics slightly, not pull everything, just kill it gradually, instakills and smaller scale CC can easily by handled by divines too. Killing Harry in one round in part 4 or before blades appear in part 5 brings way more in terms of chance of success and usually when I see him go to round 2, he doesnt have much red bar left, so yeah, 25% of arcane dots output could make a difference sometimes. Especially since dots still dmg him for a few seconds after melees jump out of blades.