Help with Artie Choices

[SiliconScout]

Ok so I dumbly listened to Turbine when they said that it didn't matter who you crafted on and my "crafter" is also my 20th level bastard sword and Shield fighter.

He's going to TR in the near future (once my cleric is at least 18) into an Arti so that leaves me a lot of questions.

Right now his levels are 47-49. Let's say he's a 50 in each when he TR's.

First question is race. WF (survivability), Helf (Dilly enhancements) or human (mark of maker).
Second question is ranged or melee
Third is pure or splash.

I was wondering what you all have seen for an effective arti build. I want to be able to solo and group well because it's easier to get the stuff I need to level up crafting on the toon that is doing the actual leveling than it is to send it all to him in the mail or shared bank.

[Kilnedric]

Ok so I dumbly listened to Turbine when they said that it didn't matter who you crafted on and my "crafter" is also my 20th level bastard sword and Shield fighter.

He's going to TR in the near future (once my cleric is at least 18) into an Arti so that leaves me a lot of questions.

Right now his levels are 47-49. Let's say he's a 50 in each when he TR's.

First question is race. WF (survivability), Helf (Dilly enhancements) or human (mark of maker).
Second question is ranged or melee
Third is pure or splash.

I was wondering what you all have seen for an effective arti build. I want to be able to solo and group well because it's easier to get the stuff I need to level up crafting on the toon that is doing the actual leveling than it is to send it all to him in the mail or shared bank.

There's plenty of builds here. Just browse through the Specialists forums (or search).
1. If you're doing it specifically for crafting, human is probably the way to go. WF is the best self-healing version. HElf is best DPS. (Note, I went human with this in mind. Now I love my arti and regret not being Helf.)
2. Ranged. (IMO melee Arti is for advanced builds with tons of gear.)
3. I have an addiction to evasion. So I splashed. If you are not addicted (i.e. you can dodge everything better than I can :)) stay pure.

[djsonar919]

1. Human for crafting or farming Cannith Challenges. WF for the easy button. Extra damage from Helf rogue dillitante feat is worthless if you solo, and you will grab aggro pretty regularly from others so it's worthless then.

2. Ranged all the way. I have yet to see a melee Arti out damage my ranged arti or go through more than two battles without the need to be healed dramatically.

3. Pure all the way. The capstone is super sweet and more than makes up for evasion. Besides, simple planning while looking at the trap will allow you to survive it to disarm it.

[SiliconScout]

Realistically what level should you hit for personal crafting.

I don't need to make that Greater _____ Bane weapon necessarily but I would like to make say Magi, Holy, Vampirism and the like.

Basically what levels should I be needing to be able to craft gear for my low and mid level toons. that will probably have more to do with my race choice than anything else as he's my crafter toon first and foremost now.

I have been thinking Ranged for sure. Kinda sad in a way because the guy has been sword n board for so long and is geared as such. I have been saving up rune arms for him and have a hellfire but that is about it for arty specific gear. I understand the DPS is a little behind a well geared melee arti but the need for healing (ie survivability) is a little bit higher.

So ranged it is, force focused is my assumption as well. The big question is race and it's a build from there. If I am not going Human I might go Helf mainly because I don't have one. =)

[thunir]

a) If you are confident, go Human. You get the extra feat, and can squeze and extra DC out of HA +1 Int. Your scroll heals should be great if you speck him right. Otherwise go WF, easy button FTW. Would not suggest Helf, your going to need all the APs you can get and Helf will just confuse things, for what I consider very little reward.

b)Go Ranged, gimped melee with gimp rune arm damage = Runic champion. Untill they balance out Rune arm choices with a good Pre line I dont think a mele build will be feasible. Right now Rune arms dont work very well at close range. I would really like the Developers look at the close range rune arms like the Arcing Sky, and ballance out the loss in DPS. In my opinion, for one shot at tier 4, you should be pulling alot more DPS in lieu of having to get closer to the target.

c) Pure, not for the Capstone, It I could do with out. Pure for the lvl 6 Spell slots because some great spells come in at lvl 6. Also you dont really need evasion as a ranged character, much less opportunity than a front line Melee. However I did take Insightful reflexes.

For what it is worth, good luck.

[FooWonk]

If you have already invested in bastard swords, I recommend sticking to them. If you have epic chimera's fang, definitely stick to bastard sword. Even on a melee artificer, don't avoid the repeaters...it is nice added DPS as you close in on mobs.

----

If you are a pure soloist, the ranged builds are probably superior as kiting through blade barriers with IPS & rune-arm AoE provide excellent DPS and survivability.

Both IPS and rune-arms take some practice and work better with mouse-look.

----

People keep saying how much DPS their ranged artificers do. For clearing trash IPS provides nice AoE damage. Against bosses, IPS provides no additional DPS. The only DPS ranged weapon available in DDO is an arcane caster.

Endless Fusillade & manyshot provide nice bursts, but you're better off swinging a melee weapon when on timer.

Comparative weapon DPS with +14 INT mod while having Lucid Dreams equipped:
° Any GS Bastard Sword w/Deadly Weapons => 178 DPS
Base: 112 = (7 enhancement + 14 INT + 5 power attack + 4*4.5 weapon + 12 lucid) * 2 swings/second
Crits: 22.4 = 20% of Base
Glance: 42 = 37.5% of Base

° Any GS Light Repeater => 108 DPS
Base: 90 = (7 + 14 + 2*5.5 + 12 + 3.5 elemental + 3*3.5 greater bane bolt) * 1.55 bolts/second
Crits: 18 = 20% of Base

° Any GS Heavy Repeater => 117 DPS
Base: 97.5 = (7 + 14 + 4*4.5 + 12 + 3.5 + 3*3.5) * 1.5 bolts/second
Crits: 19.5 = 20% of Base

The bastard sword is the clear DPS winner for human, warforged and half-elf artificers. If you play warforged, don't bother with the glancing blow enhancements, they provide minimal DPS for the AP investment. The power attack line is useful if you can still hit on 2+ with it.

Dwaves can choose between bastard sword w/feat or dwarven axe w/master's touch & racial weapon damage for equivalent DPS.

[djsonar919]

People keep saying how much DPS their ranged artificers do. For clearing trash IPS provides nice AoE damage. Against bosses, IPS provides no additional DPS. The only DPS ranged weapon available in DDO is an arcane caster.



So the 1500+ point blasts from rune arms don't count as "ranged weapons?" I'm confused here.

[Malison]

math

Good, except that (1) you left off arti crossbow dmg enhancement required for battle engineer. +2 to each bow's base. (2) heavy repeater shoots 120 shots per minute by my last 3000-bolt test, so your xbow base should be
Base: 134 = (7 + 14 + 4*4.5 + 12 + 3.5 + 3*3.5 +2) * 2 bolts/second
I'll take off the greater bane bolts because I don't know anyone who keeps a stash of them, but it's still
Base: 113
BS might be ahead with glancing blows; but it's certainly not as cut and dried as you suggest. If you're ever moving, on the other hand, xbow comes out ahead.

But the biggest reason not to be a melee arti is because your rune arm never hits at melee range. You could take a step back, losing a charge tier, fire, and step back into melee, but then you lose an attack or three, too.

[FooWonk]

So the 1500+ point blasts from rune arms don't count as "ranged weapons?" I'm confused here.

Lucid Dreams averages around 200-250 DPS. To reach this maximum, you need to stand completely still for 6 seconds, fire only on a full 5-charge, invest in the full force enhancement line and recharge immediately after the cool-down timer.

Any amount of moving causes force & light rune-arm DPS to plummet. The elemental rune-arms drop, but not nearly as rapidly.

As DPS goes, rune-arms are more damage than you'll get with any off-hand weapon. It is not high DPS when compared to other DPS (450 for frenzied barbarian and kensei, 400 for tempest, all with only Lit2 green steel).

If you want to play ranged, dual wield sorcerers. You won't find higher DPS.

[FooWonk]

Good, except that (1) you left off arti crossbow dmg enhancement required for battle engineer. +2 to each bow's base. (2) heavy repeater shoots 120 shots per minute by my last 3000-bolt test, so your xbow base should be
Base: 100.5 = (7 + 14 + 4*4.5 + 12 + 3.5 + 3*3.5 +2) * 1.50 bolts/second
I'll take off the greater bane bolts because I don't know anyone who keeps a stash of them, but it's still
Base: 84.75

Yeah, I missed on the +2 damage enhancements.

You increased the RoF of heavy repeater to the swings/second speed of THF. I corrected and adjusted your numbers accordingly; it's all marked in red.

I keep greater bane bolts specifically for using with endless fusillade.



BS might be ahead with glancing blows; but it's certainly not as cut and dried as you suggest. If you're ever moving, on the other hand, xbow comes out ahead.

If you're target isn't in melee range, shoot it. If it's in melee range, hack it up. Either way, let them come to you so you can charge your rune-arm.



But the biggest reason not to be a melee arti is because your rune arm never hits at melee range. You could take a step back, losing a charge tier, fire, and step back into melee, but then you lose an attack or three, too.

I currently use Tira's Splendor with bastard sword. I agree, it works best at point blank range with mouse-look.

Here is how you use Tira's Splendor in melee w/o mouse-look:
° DO NOT hard target what you want to shoot
° Line the center of the enemy up with the top of your right shoulder.
° If you are unsure about the targeting, fire a 1-charge test shot

When you're learning how to use rune-arms, you need to know how they fire. Here are the rune-arms I've used successfully in melee by firing type:

Breath attacks hit everything in path, whether it's targeted or not:
° Trial By Fire
° Chimera's Breath

Seeking missile shooters hit whatever you have hard targeting or in the path:
° Pea Shooter
° Recoyle
° Lucid Dreams
° Glorious Obscenity, I haven't tested this one

Bolt shooter & streamers hit whatever is in targeting reticle (can be used without mouse-look with practice, see above):
° Chulchannad's Claw
° Coronach, I found this one to be useless no matter how I tried to target
° Tira's Splendor

[inggold]

Yeah, I missed on the +2 damage enhancements.

You increased the RoF of heavy repeater to the swings/second speed of THF. I corrected and adjusted your numbers accordingly; it's all marked in red.



Sorry, but it seems to me either your bolts per second is borked, or your swings per second on the BS are borked, or both. Your "correction" in red is absolutely incorrect for comparative rates of fire/swinging.

I've tested this against a buddy swinging exactly a bastard sword, and WAY outshot his number of swings. How are you getting more swings than bolts in a given time period?

[FooWonk]

Sorry, but it seems to me either your bolts per second is borked, or your swings per second on the BS are borked, or both. Your "correction" in red is absolutely incorrect for comparative rates of fire/swinging.

I've tested this against a buddy swinging exactly a bastard sword, and WAY outshot his number of swings. How are you getting more swings than bolts in a given time period?

Here is the crossbow testing thread:
--> http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=341522

I didn't include endless fusillade as these do run out. With conjured bolts, endless fusillade and quick draw you get:
° 108 bolts/minute for 101.7 DPS

Here is the melee weapon testing thread:
--> http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144
--> http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4037217&postcount=48

Yeah, I took the swings/minute from a build sheet I have for my kensei. I forgot that the speed boosts were included in that spread sheet.

103.3 swings/minute S&B w/haste would lower the bastard sword numbers to 150.76 DPS. This is still 1.5x the DPS of a repeater.

All the weapon effects added in will only increase the gap. Around 7% of your glancing blows will proc weapon effects. For a Lit2, this means additional holy and shock damage on every 17 swings, and an extra lightning strike every 1000 swings.

The safer you are; the lower your DPS will be. This is how the game is designed.

[Malison]

Breath attacks hit everything in path, whether it's targeted or not:
° Trial By Fire
° Chimera's Breath

Seeking missile shooters hit whatever you have hard targeting or in the path:
° Pea Shooter
° Recoyle
° Lucid Dreams
° Glorious Obscenity, I haven't tested this one

Bolt shooter & streamers hit whatever is in targeting reticle (can be used without mouse-look with practice, see above):
° Chulchannad's Claw
° Coronach, I found this one to be useless no matter how I tried to target
° Tira's Splendor

+1 for good tips on landing rune arm shots at close range.


Here is the crossbow testing thread:
--> http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=341522

Trouble with that thread is that it uses BAB values of less than max, while showing clearly that higher BAB means faster rate of fire. If you're on a capped Arti, you have no business having a BAB of less than 20 with how plentiful divine power clickies are. I maintain the 120 shots/minute I personally tested under DP and Haste.

[SiliconScout]

Here is what I come up with

**edit** Actually I think I will start it's own thread as this one has been pleasantly derailed.

Question Rapid Shot + Rapid Reload is good... does Quick Draw do anything more?

[FooWonk]

Trouble with that thread is that it uses BAB values of less than max, while showing clearly that higher BAB means faster rate of fire. If you're on a capped Arti, you have no business having a BAB of less than 20 with how plentiful divine power clickies are. I maintain the 120 shots/minute I personally tested under DP and Haste.

I cannot run a fair test on my level 18 artificer (it is a melee build w/o rapid shot). Here are yours and others tests, with DPS calculations minus weapon effects:

Malison (120/m) .==> 136 DPS w/20 BaB
Cforce (128/m) ===> 144 DPS w/07 BaB
Darkrok (117/m) ==> 133 DPS w/20 BaB

With these numbers, repeater DPS is much closer to the DPS of bastard sword (150), though weapon procs on glancing blows will widen the gap in favor of bastard sword.

IMO, choosing between repeaters and bastard sword is close enough that it should come down to play style preference. One caveat for those choosing melee, you will want a very high concentration for scroll casting.

[FooWonk]

Here is what I come up with (I am going pew-pew as I don't have epic chimera's fang).

Question does quick draw speed up the reload of a repeater ... does it stack with Rapid Shot on repeaters as well?

No. It shortens the pause from when you activate endless fusillade or other boosts. It also removes the 1 second cool-down timer when swapping items.

With Quick Draw: the pause in your attack sequence for activating HV:DB & EF is the same as the pause you'd have for either one alone.

With Quick Draw: you can pull out a wand, whip it, and pull out your weapon with the only delay being the animation for using the wand (and the animation can be interrupted).




feat selection

Below is in reference to a build posted and then deleted by an edit.


I'd suggest you arrange your feats differently and not bother with Quicken or Combat Expertise on a human, ranged artificer.

Level 1 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
Feat: (Human Bonus) Rapid Shot

Level 3 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Augment Summoning

Level 4 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons

Level 6 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 8 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Maximize Spell

Level 9 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell

Level 12 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Precise Shot

Level 15 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Making

Level 16 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Improved Precise Shot

Level 18 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Making

Level 20 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Greater Dragonmark of Making

[MaxwellEdison]

Read thread title as Help with Artichokes

Was confused.

[Ashlayna]

Now I'm kinda glad my dog got stuck in a dungeon, and I had to log out. Checking the feat selection for what I have so far, I guess I was on the right track. I took PBS and Toughness first, and I might have totally missed Augment Summoning. Not like trading feats is an issue, I have a stash built up from drops, but it seems like I had the right idea, so far.

[SiliconScout]

Sorry about that. I musta been editing that when you were doing yours up (wasn't there when I finished the edit)

Hmmm I can't remember why I had combat expertise. I thought there was a feat or enhancement that required it but I don't see any in the list. I could swap that for maximize (or maybe another toughness) but I like quicken there to be able to toss down a turret in the middle of battle when I really need it down.
What about this:

Level 1 (Artificer)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
Feat: (Human Bonus) Rapid Shot


Level 3 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Augment Summoning


Level 4 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons


Level 6 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 8 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Maximize Spell


Level 9 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 12 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Precise Shot


Level 15 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Making


Level 16 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Improved Precise Shot


Level 18 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Making


Level 20 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Greater Dragonmark of Making

[wax_on_wax_off]

This (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4028191&posted=1#post4028191) is my bastard sword specced cannith dragonmarked human Artificer which I'll TR my paladin into soon to max out crafting ranks.

The effective essence discount that you get when leveling crafting skills on account of the free crafting levels from DMs and Artificer class is kind of obscene the way I understand it, I'd definitely suggest it (even if you then TR into a Helf or WF on a subsequent life after you crafting levels are as high as you need them to be).

Epic Chimaera's Fang is the weapon of choice for this build, everything else is just fluff. I'm really looking forward to seeing how this build turns out.

[inggold]

Here is the crossbow testing thread:
--> http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=341522

I didn't include endless fusillade as these do run out. With conjured bolts, endless fusillade and quick draw you get:
° 108 bolts/minute for 101.7 DPS

Here is the melee weapon testing thread:
--> http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144
--> http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4037217&postcount=48

Yeah, I took the swings/minute from a build sheet I have for my kensei. I forgot that the speed boosts were included in that spread sheet.

103.3 swings/minute S&B w/haste would lower the bastard sword numbers to 150.76 DPS. This is still 1.5x the DPS of a repeater.

All the weapon effects added in will only increase the gap. Around 7% of your glancing blows will proc weapon effects. For a Lit2, this means additional holy and shock damage on every 17 swings, and an extra lightning strike every 1000 swings.

The safer you are; the lower your DPS will be. This is how the game is designed.

Go read that thread again on the Xbows.

Look at what BAB is doing, and look and what Rapid shot is doing.

There are multiple people in that post posting ~2 bolt per scond rate of fire, not 1.5 like you keep wanting to use. Sustainable all the time on. Before considering pure arti Divine clickies to push it even further, or the additional 7-8% RoF from haste....

Post 4 shows a lvl 4 with the right feats shooting 46 bolts in 20 seconds.

Post 25 has 75 shots in ~39 seconds, a level 9.

Post 31 shows the same...


Real (a little more real anyhow) numbers are:

° Any GS Heavy Repeater => 143 DPS (plus ~4 from PrE, but I'll ignore as I don't like including bane bolts all the time anyhow)
Base: 97.5 = (7 + 14 + 4*4.5 + 12 + 3.5 + 3*3.5) * 1.9 bolts/second (123.5)
Crits: 19.5 = 20% of Base (Didn't change this, but in your calc example would go to 24.7)

Or is it 1.8 bolts a second? Costs about 6 DPS.

So, somewhere around 140-145 DPS in your calculation for comparisons.


I see you did correct the Bastard sword in this post, bringing the speed down some and putting it around 150 DPS. Still feels fast to me, but can be tested again with my buddy swinging side by side next to me. His build just happens to be a fighter that goes bastard sword and shield for tanking.


Like I said, the numbers just seem borked. I do enjoy the work you are doing as I hadn't even considered melee Arti's viable and it is certainly opening my eyes. But it would behoove us all to get the actual DPS of the weapons right in the comparisons.

[FooWonk]

Sorry about that. I musta been editing that when you were doing yours up (wasn't there when I finished the edit)

Hmmm I can't remember why I had combat expertise. I thought there was a feat or enhancement that required it but I don't see any in the list. I could swap that for maximize (or maybe another toughness) but I like quicken there to be able to toss down a turret in the middle of battle when I really need it down.

What about this:

Looks good.

Re: quicken
* the vast majority of my interrupted spells at low levels have been from being tripped or knocked prone (across about 20+ casters played through level 7)
* maxed concentration, armor of invulnerability & fortification will usually be enough to avoid concentration failures
* good battlefield positioning will help a great deal as well

Flame Turret
* has a very slow casting animation, quicken will help a great deal
* it does not scale in damage or durability ... by gianthold, it dies instantly after getting agro

I like the idea of having quicken for flame turret at low levels. Once your only using the turrets at unopened doors or inside already cast blade barriers, use your free feat swap to get empower. If you're leveling with bravery bonus, that will probably be between levels 11 and 13.

[FooWonk]

Go read that thread again on the Xbows.

I read the entire thread multiple times and several others related to repeater RoF. You seem to have missed my updated repeater calculations.

Here's the link: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4252635&postcount=15

Here are my tests with my artificer, Fuykali:

84 swings/minute -> Bastard Sword w/BaB 13
88 swings/minute -> Bastard Sword w/BaB 18
98 swings/minute -> Bastard Sword w/BaB 18 and AoV
106 swings/minute -> Bastard Sword w/BaB 18 and Haste


90 bolts/minute -> Heavy Repeater w/BaB 13
102 bolts/minute -> Heavy Repeater w/BaB 18
114 bolts/minute -> Heavy Repeater w/BaB 18 and AoV
114 bolts/minute -> Heavy Repeater w/BaB 18 and Haste


I don't have rapid shot, and can't swap it in without LR.