Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[MadFloyd]

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. Again, I invite PMs for those who prefer to voice their opinions that way.

EDIT: See a mockup/explanation on page 29 of this thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4250712&postcount=578

[stainer]

I would do better with a visualization of the new UI. You guys may not have it ready, or have a mock up available though. Doesn't sound outrageous as you presented it.

I think people that still have the "Crit Rage" enhancement line are going to set fire to the forums when they find out about this. Good luck with that Madfloyd. :)

[Trillea]

Thank you for the heads up sir!

[Zess-wolf]

Well, not sure if the thread is for this but Thanks a lot!

Also, a look at the new UI would be nice :D

Cheers

Zess

[LeLoric]

Oh no enhancment changes. We don't wanna lose you like we did Hsinclair.

Ok kidding aside. I think having a look at enhancments would be a good thing. Some new/better choices will be nice. More importantly rebalancing the costs of some is probably more important. Monks and pallys are hit especially hard but there's others too that have issues. Racial enhancments need a really good workover and this would be a great way to even out the racial discrepencies a bit. Would be awesome if this change came with a large investment in prestige upgrades also.

Hard to say a lot more without some more specific ideas on what kinds of changes we are looking at..

Curious what kind of time frame are we looking at on a revamp here?

Im sure there's some crit rage barbarians gonna be upset.

[RedDragonScale]

New UI? Fine.

I have no problem with the current one but if it means you're able to finish the PrEs, by all means, DO IT!!!

[Meat-Head]

reduce pally ap costs plox. :)


Anyway, this all sounds pretty good to me so far..

[ghortagg]

Great news!

I recruited a lot of mewbies in my guild last month and most of them didn't know what a prestige was, inluding some 10+ charcters.

And yes, more option is better

[Vellrad]

Whatever you do, make sure game won't use so much time on resetting and acceping new enhancement setup, and give each enhancement a SEPARATE ICON, WHICH IS NOT USED ANYWHERE IN GAME.

[sacredguyver]

Sounds interesting. I'd also like to request a mock-up of the proposed change, with all the usual "Subject to Change" disclaimers. The resulting input from posting one will probably help refine the design and ease people into the change, so that (at least forum-users) people won't be put off by the sudden change. :D

[NytCrawlr]

Yeah, trying to see all the available options at once is a pain and a half, add a nice face lift as well as some adjustments sounds good to me.

Can't wait to start seeing some of the changes. :)

[dkyle]

Cautiously optimistic about this. The current Enhancement UI is certainly not ideal. Hopefully, we'll be seeing some serious love for the primary Melee classes, particularly in terms of DPS.

I do hope we don't see a proliferation of prereqs, to fit things into the tree. Pre-reqs are fine in moderation, but too many reduces build options. I think what we have currently is about right.

[Montrose]

An ehnacement tree would be nice.

I'm not too concerned about the enhancements themselves changing. They've changed a ton since the game started, and this is just one more iteration. As long as the cost to reset them is sufficiently low (plat and 3 days is reasonable) then it should be all goodness.

[Battery]

do it, and the sooner the better

[Enoach]

Resetting enhancements - Those of us that have been around long enough remember doing that when the Enhancement system was first done. I don't see this as a personal problem, but I also don't have a Barbarian with Crit Rage anymore. This change would be a true end of that Era. Also since I will adjust my AP every now and then to try new stuff I don't see having to do them all over again as a bad thing - especially if your giving me more options. Be sad if my current options cost more than they do now, that I would be sad about yep yep.

To (Pre's anyone?) - the answer is a resounding YES. Finish the current ones and give us the other ones we have been waiting for {closes eyes and chants Warpriest, Warpriest, please give us Warpriest}

[Meat-Head]

Hopefully, we'll be seeing some serious love for the primary Melee classes, particularly in terms of DPS.

I do hope we don't see a proliferation of prereqs, to fit things into the tree. Pre-reqs are fine in moderation, but too many reduces build options. I think what we have currently is about right.


This is yes.

[Scraap]

The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs).

A bit of a mind-dump, but what they hey, didn't see this one coming:

If balance is the intent, I'd personally advocate for higher, but non-stacking ones.

Say:

Progressing the +stat enhancements beyond level 10 to a full +6 by the end, alongside divorcing them from being locked into a pure class (one of my earliest disappointments when I started was seeing +dex for rogue and ranger, only to find out that they were an either/or. Progressing them to the full 20 would net 2 paths for that (pure, or mixed), and making it so its enhancements or itemization would give a 3rd, and free up an item slot if the game were balanced for that.).

Similarly, the elemental resistance enhancement lines for rogues, barbs, and rangers could progress to being the equivalent of having a permanent resist item/spell, which would yield the options for bring a caster, be in a guild, drink pots, wear items, or buy enhancements.


In a different vein, purely talking augmentation, it would be nice for an across the board enhancement rework for those classes that are inherently a mix of melee and casting, so that the limited SP pool and spell selection were the only real differences, and not the effectiveness of the spells as well (baring of course caster level). Say the cures of a paly, and the cures of a cleric, provided the same aps were spent, as an example. Doesn't give em heals, and surely wont last as long, but every bit helps there in differentiating the melee classes.

[dopey69]

i got a bad feeling about this

[Meat-Head]

to (pre's anyone?) - the answer is a resounding yes. Finish the current ones and give us the other ones we have been waiting for {closes eyes and chants warpriest, warpriest, please give us warpriest}


yes!!

[waterboytkd]

I think a facelift sounds awesome. Tree-style will make it a bit easier on newbs (not to be confused with noobs, who will still screw it up, but there's nothing to be done about that) and people less proficient at that kind of micro-management.

What I'm most excited about, MadFloyd, is the concept of NEW enhancements. For example, did you know that monks have no class enhancements at level 1 (aside from Improved [skill] I)? Did you know that many/most/maybe all light monks are just burning AP on stuff they don't want until they can hit that magic AP spent threshold (dark monks have it a bit easier because of the filler prereqs that Ninja Spy has)?

This could also be an excellent time to revisit some prereqs for enhancements, as some are ludicrous (Assassin PrE, Void 4), and in general, I look forward greatly to a vast "enhancement pass" like spells received in U9.

My big question: are we going to be losing enhancements, as well as gaining new ones? If so, could we get a heads up?

I like these Let's Talk threads, Mad! It's awesome to be notified about changes like this (especially big ones), and be given a chance to weigh in.

[Auran82]

Hopefully this will lead to more options in the enhancements, as it is now, there are alot of cases where you are forced to take useless ones just to spend points, and there are alot that you just simply cannot, not take without gimping your character.

[Khellendros13]

This is great news.

Please look at reducing certain AP costs (Pally, Monk) and/or giving us more AP while leveling or even past L20.

Actually gaining AP past L20 (as a massive XP requirement) would be awesome. Even an extra 5 or 10 AP would really help to flesh out and make our builds more unique.

[GoRinNoSho]

One thing as a definite heads up, you will probably want to give out feat respecs/lrs etc. for characters with prestiges that require enhancements and feats.

That's something that I can see would cause harumphing if your feat/enhancement requires prevented you from reseting to what you were.

[Adrian99]

Agreed, the enhancement UI needs tree-based organization. Use as many levels as you can since they'll be easy to open and close.

Example (incomplete display for brevity, multi-classed toon):

- Class: Rogue
- Action Boost
- Haste Boost
Haste Boost I
Haste Boost II
...
- Prestige
- Assassin
Assassin I
Assassin II
Assassin III
+ Mechanic
+ Thief-Acrobat
- Skills
- Disable Device
Disable Device I
Disable Device II
....
+ Open Lock
- Class: Paladin
- Prestige
+ Hunter of the Dead
+ Knight of the Chalice
- Defender of Siberys
Defender of Siberys I
Defender of Siberys II
Defender of Siberys III
- Skills
- Intimidate
Intimidate I
Intimidate II
..
- Race: Half-Orc
- Extra Action Boost
Extra Action Boost I
Extra Action Boost II
...
- Stats
Strength I
Strength II
- Threat
Threat I
Threat II
...
- Toughness
Racial Toughness I
Racial Toughness II


My only other pet-peeve is the mutual exclusivity between class-based enhancements which makes some combinations of prestige enhancements imposssible. For example, if a prestige required Cleric Charisma and another required Paladin Charisma then you couldn't take both of those prestiges. Sorry I can't think of a real example right now, but I know for certain there are such cases.

[Duke-H-]

It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it.

True words.

I approve of any change that makes the UI better.

[Feithlin]

You're not very descriptive about the planed changes, but I recommend taking a look at the AP costs of PrEs, and the utility / AP cost of abilities. All PrEs don't necessarily need the same AP cost for each tier, but the benefits should be on par with the cost.
Also keep in mind that the values have changed a lot since the level cap was 12. The benefits of Energy of the Scholar for example are a bit ridiculous now (+20/30 sp when wizards usually have around 2,000 sp is 1%).
It would be great if some imaginative enhancements were introduced, like a way for rogues to reduce fortification, or to eliminate epic mobs immunity to attribute damage, etc. You could play with enhancements to allow some character to bypass some immunities.

[Rinnaldo]

The current filters kind of suck. Sometimes they don't even work properly (try viewing enhancements, checking unavailable and unchecking trained - it usually doesn't filter your trained ones this way), and it is painful that the filters can't be set and locked. It is also frustrating to have to scan through the whole list of "unavailable" enhancements for every race and class to find the few that will eventually become available to the race and class you're currently playing.

I am really glad to hear about this UI change, and hope that some of these issues will be addressed (if not eradicated, due to a totally different interface)! :D

[Theolin]

My concern would be with cost on trees where I cannot afford things that I have now because the prerequisites become too expensive. Meaning too many things in too many trees with too many prereqs.

BUT fixing --> having to remember what did I need for that enhancement and which was it for that one again ... search .... search ... grumle brumble .. oh there it is ..... again. <-- fixing that would be awesomesauce

[BDS]

Easier way to distinguish what is required to qualify for a pre would be nice. As it is now you have to scroll through tons of enhancements to find you pre (some of which you dont even qualify for, melee with spell dmg lines anyone) or look it up online.

As always not sure how much I'll like change. Guess we will see when more information is available.

[donblas]

I've liked every change you've made to enhancements so far - each has made my toons more interesting.

That said anything that makes the selection more intuitive - it took me 6 months to find the essential "show unavailable" bit - would be welcome.

[nibel]

Enhancements are a mixed bag in my mind. I would love a new UI (I have to use Imitating's enhancement planner (http://ddo.motd.ru/planner) every time I reset mines, or I get lost on the requisites), and I loved the new arcane lines. But on the other hand, there are a ton of "useless" enhancements that to nothing useful anymore. I mean, I doubt anyone ever buyed Sprint Boost IV. It just isnt worthy of 10 APs. Say the same for resist energy lines ( +6 resist is a joke), barbarian DR boost, or fighter/paladin Armor Boost

A complete revamp on the enhancements would remove a lot of useless things that were useful once, and isn't anymore. Eg, monk AP line still "thinks" you need to buy the first tier stances.

Since it's on topic, I'll give some ideas that probably someone will post while I type:


Remove ability bonus enhancements. At all. The only thing they do is adding power creep. Instead, add more class/racial enhancements that cover the niche the ability was covering. Eg, rogues could get a reflex enhancement line instead of a dex enhancement line.
Prestige enhancements should be visible all the time for anyone check pre-requisites without needing to check a box. The tree UI should help on this.
Be sure to not hurt gishes. Not only fighter/wizard and such. Paladins and rangers can be considered "gishes" (Melee with a few magic support), but if they want to boost their magic power (like more SP, higher healing, extend spell, and so on), they lose a lot of melee power. Since the game actually is balanced towards the max hit barbarians/fighters, we have paladins and rangers not doing much against their non-favored enemies.
Racial weapon enhancements should be rebalanced. Not much to think about it. 6 AP for +2 damage is too much.
Remove the iron defender line. Now we have artificers.
Show a screenshot of a quick draft of what you expect the new UI and new enhancements to be, so we can give more precise feedback.


~2¢

[sherbertmachine]

I'd like to see a reduction in cost for bard enhancements. Inspired Attack is outrageous.

[Meat-Head]

Also keep in mind that the values have changed a lot since the level cap was 12. The benefits of Energy of the Scholar for example are a bit ridiculous now (+20/30 sp when wizards usually have around 2,000 sp is 1%).
.


HOLY CR@P That's a good point. +1.

[gloopygloop]

As part of the new Enhancements UI, I'd like to suggest an added feature that brings forth a popup under certain conditions saying something like, "Hey dumbass! You know you forgot to pick up Inscribed Armor?"

There have been several times when I would have found this useful... :)



As long as the changes to the Enhancements UI don't break Handwraps, I look forward to the update.

[esheep]

One thing I would like to see is the ability to swap out a few enhancements -- get rid of one or two things without having to re-do all of your enhancements... a perfect example is my air savant who is maxed out on his electrical spec and his cold spec, I'd like to be able to hop back and forth from air to water savant without having to re-do everything.

And well another nifty thing would be the ability to build from the top down... select say Frenzied Berserker 3 and work backwards...

Thx.

[Calebro]

I don't care how it changes, practically anything else would be an improvement. Augmenting them as well will just be icing on the cake for me.
Ron & Co. may hate the extra work you're volunteering them for, but it will be worth it. ;)

[donblas]

Woot yay - I especially like the idea of the "hey dumbass" UI :)

[blkcat1028]

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. Again, I invite PMs for those who prefer to voice their opinions that way.

It is a very cumbersome interface and could certainly use an upgrade. So... Yay!

From several of the dev posts I've read recently, it seems you folks are excited about something. If that's any indicator, I'm looking forward to the next few updates!

[Xenostrata]

reduce pally ap costs plox. :)

Please, this. Really.

Make DM reasonable, since at the moment the top tier generally requires both 1/8 of a paladin's total AP and a starting charisma of 18.

Make the exalted smite chain worth taking, maybe by giving each tier a reduction to the smite regen time (also adding this to KotC, ofc). Change the Extra Smite line to 1 AP per tier instead of ascending 1/2/3/4.

Make LoHs more powerful, regenerating, and generally more useful. With HElf monks running around with no fail heal scrolls and any caster class having pretty much endless self healing, this ability could use a bump (maybe allow it to function with Devotion effects, and Reconstruction effects for warforged. Both stacking, since HAmp doesn't boost a WF LoH).

Change KotC to something useful against all targets (maybe +3 to-hit/damage to non-goods at t1, +3 to-hit/damage to evils at t2, and +4 to-hit/damage to evil outsiders t3).

Do SOMETHING with HotD to make it worth taking for any situation beyond leveling up and bragging on HAmp builds.

Give Paladins a capstone that can't be passed out by artificers.

Any and all buffing is welcome.

[esheep]

I had just thought of a suggestion about the implementation...

Don't make it a hard forced change... let people have the option of keeping their enhancements the way they were for a bit (I know I know, but listen)...

The reason being, WHAT IF? What if it doesn't work as planned right away? Everyone will be ticked off. Instead if you allow players the option to switch one character over at a time to the new system (so they can enjoy the benefits) you'll still get feedback, but it won't be immediately forced on the entire community -- this allows for a margin of error...

I know that might be harder to implement, but it might be the wise way to go. At least until you are certain that all the kinks are worked out (and it's been implemented on live for several months).

[Xenostrata]

It is a very cumbersome interface and could certainly use an upgrade. So... Yay!

From several of the dev posts I've read recently, it seems you folks are excited about something. If that's any indicator, I'm looking forward to the next few updates!

The Devs were really excited about the challenges, and Maj's "Best Item EVAR" was a clicky that turned you into a kobold.

Expect dissappointment and you end up pleasantly surprised.

[red_cardinal]

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).


I don't expect anything more than grouping children horizontally and showing them as icons. But, that would mean to much icons, say for Sorcerer Glaciation I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII. Maybe you could have simple icons with hover tooltips explaining what icon means. That would conserve space vertically and wouldn't be so much scrolling needed.




We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.


Tree is a tree - it's just how you render it.

Functionality is more important than pretty colors. If I want pretty colors, I go surf the web.

Also, I don't understand why not implement tier III enhancements for classes which have tier II. It's just silly. I understand lack of the whole Prestige for one class, but lacking tier III is silly.
I hope you go all the way - no more "maybe yes, maybe no" attitude!!! (Occult slayer - maybe yes, but tier II only. :P )



It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.


People like changes in theory, but never in practice - no matter how blunt this sounds.
If you are getting new servers, consider giving Tempests their bonus to attack speed back, instead of double strike (same for paladin's zeal).

Also, core point revolving around building toons - FEATS. Please, review them:
-> Shoot on the run - doesn't apply to bow users while moving (borked!),
-> Whirlwind attack - to slow animation,
-> Slicing blow - useless - doesn't scale with character level or any stat modifier,
-> Cleave, Geater cleave, Whirlwind attack, Supreme cleave - all share the same animation - maybe change it to see a difference?
-> Improved shield bash - when attacking with a weapon and a shield (char has this feat) animation looks dorky. Consider making this an active feat so when clicked, it executes an animation like that Skeleton, which likes to dance a lot, does it.
-> Mobile spellcasting - if a caster doesn't have this feat, spells can't be cast while jumping and moving. Add a slow effect there or something. Make this feat viable.
-> Power critical - give me a break. Make it like a Seeker Competence bonus. It's a passive feat so not much fuss about changing it.
-> Rapid shot - no difference when using bows. Make this an active feat so it doubles the rate of firing arrows/bolts at the cost of -4 to attack.

There are also skills in the game which have little sense to take:
- Heal - do something with this feat. Allow using healer/repair kits on self. At least that.
- Hide/Move silently - that's a story for itself. Using an object breaks stealth. Sniper shot breaks stealth. Some love here, please.
- Listen - this skill is almost worthless. Spot is far better. At least use it in some quests as a part of dialog check (like bluff and spot are in Partycrashers).
- Swim - more gauntlets like Crucible with rushing water and stuff,
- Tumble - completely useless. First of all, to tumble you need to hold down shift and then press movement key. Change this so when a movement key is 'double pressed' (like in Unreal), toon does a roll. Also, try to adjust animation so it smoothly fits into attack sequence.

[Galeria]

I love the sound of this because using the existing enhancement UI was one of the most frustrating things about learning the game.

I do hope you will usability test/play test the new UI extensively with real players before you commit to it, though.

This sounds promising.

[KillEveryone]

As long as I can make my characters the way they are now.

I do feel some enhancements should be cheaper like the racial combat DC enhancements, racial armor enhancements. Pretty much the racial enhancements.

A class enhancement I feel is a bit expensive is the bard inspire bravery, mostly because this is just junk and eats up AP and my warchanter already had to spend 2 feats, 1 of which I could slot something better, on a feat starved build.

[red_cardinal]

Prestige enhancements are vital part of DDO. It's a shame that they were neglected for 3 years and all was left on a promise. That aside, if you guys want to have the best thing out there for multiclassing so your Marketing department can brag about it in ads, focus yourselves on this AND the feats that come with it. I understand that not all feats can be useful at all times, but they should make a difference. Same goes for skills.

One thing that catches the eye of a newbie is that they read Path description and they think - wow... deepwood sniper, master of archery... I just like to try to snipe things... And after in the game they discover that it's total ****. And that it's unfinished. The first impression lead to disappointment. That's just astronomically so not cool! :P

[Dagolar]

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. Again, I invite PMs for those who prefer to voice their opinions that way.

Looking forward to it :)

[LeLoric]

Can I suggest the following

Halfling encumbrance I: 0 AP, changes the halfling encumbrance penalty from 50% to 0%

[Aashrym]

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. Again, I invite PMs for those who prefer to voice their opinions that way.

If the work translates into buffing some classes that need it and lays the ground work for more PrE's faster I would have a hard time not thing that is a productive use of development time.

On that note screenshot it or it didn't happen. :D

Can we get some information on the new enhancements or direction you are going with them so we can provide more focused feedback?

[Hafeal]

I don't mind a reworking of the enhancements UI - but it would be VERY nice if it incorporated the ability to cross-reference feats as so many PRe's have BOTH as requirements.

Actually, I would hope this change would be incorporated into an overall character planner. I can't believe there isn't one now to be honest - and I mean that with no offense to Ron's program, which I love. Given the game's complexity and many layered interactions between skills, equipment, feats, and enhancements, especially at level 20, there SHOULD be some way to really map out your character with 'official' sources. I am sure almost every DDO has lived in the Player's Handbook while playing pnp - I think it is a missing element to the UI now.

[Carpone]

If this new interface expedites the release of new prestige class enhancements (Barbarian Occult Slayer, Favored Soul Divine Avenger, Monk Henshin Mystic, etc), I'm all for it.

[Xenostrata]

On that note screenshot it or it didn't happen. :D

All joking aside, could you maybe give us a picture of the new UI? I can totally understand if you can't, but a visual representation would be very helpful in formulating an opinion.

[oberon131313]

Im sure there's some crit rage barbarians gonna be upset.

indeed

[Kushiel]

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. Again, I invite PMs for those who prefer to voice their opinions that way.

What hurts is the points where it takes 6-AP to move an enhancement... that means sitting for 1-and-one-half of a level before getting to see character advancement. That is... depressing

[ComicRelief]

...It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points....

My only "problem" with this (OK, OK - maybe not my "only" problem) is the "AP spending pre-requisite" ("progress") for some of the enhancements (I personally think having the "you must spend 'x' APs before taking this enhancement" is...shall we say, "less than smart") - especially if these requirements have changed from the original taking of the enhancements. As an example, I am contemplating LR'ing my ranger, but in planning out said LR, there is currently no way for me to re-take only the enhancements I currently have WITHOUT taking a few 'extra' ones to satisfy the "AP progress" requirements (meaning that they have changed from the time I originally took my enhancements). So, if my enhancements are reset, AND there have been changes to the progress requirements (since I orginally took the enhancements), how can I be assured I can get the SAME set of enhancements I currently have? I may end-up being a few APs (maybe even just 1 AP) short because of the 'new' progress requirements.

Possible Solution #1: eliminate the "progress" requirements (go ahead and keep the class/toon level requirements and "must have 'this' enhancement" requirements).

Possible Solution #2: after the re-set, TEMPORARILY suspend the "progress" requirements until AFTER the enhancements have been re-taken (or for a definite amount of time, say, three weeks [just an arbitrary number] after the 're-set') to allow people to "get back what they had". (Of course, some will take this opportunity to completely redo their enhancements - but there is no 'perfect' solution.)

My preference would be possible solution #1 (for several reasons, not the least of which is that I can see possible solution #2 being much more difficult to implement).

{Hear's a can being opened, somewhere in the background...perhaps it contains...worms?}
;)

[oberon131313]

I like the idea of updating the enhancements UI, but if you force a reset, I will lose one of my favorite characters.

I have a Crit Rage II Barb. Before the ability to get additional character slots, I deleted him (cap was 14 at the time). The day that the ability to undelete characters came out, I paid to have him undeleted. I was then left with a 12 barb / 1 fighter / 1 ranger toon that I couldn't GR, and couldn't reset the enhancements on. I was ok with that, because I knew that I could still make a toon that I would enjoy playing if I was careful. That toon is now capped, with a 3 piece Abashai set and a +3 supreme tome (As I planned on never TRing him). I have been incredibly careful to ensure that I don't lose the enhancement, as it makes that character different to play, and that is what I find the most enjoyment in; making toons that people wouldn't normally make, and making them 'somehow' work.

With a forced enhancement respec, I lose what makes Ognwe- special.

[Gratch]

A new treelike UI might be nice - though that mostly works in other games because they're a lot less dense with options... and don't have multiclassing.

Recosting enhancements and new enhancements will be nice. Tread carefully if you move enhancement levels... especially if moved upwards... or face the cries of a thousand multiclassed toons.

[LeLoric]

I like the idea of updating the enhancements UI, but if you force a reset, I will lose one of my favorite characters.

I have a Crit Rage II Barb. Before the ability to get additional character slots, I deleted him (cap was 14 at the time). The day that the ability to undelete characters came out, I paid to have him undeleted. I was then left with a 12 barb / 1 fighter / 1 ranger toon that I couldn't GR, and couldn't reset the enhancements on. I was ok with that, because I knew that I could still make a toon that I would enjoy playing if I was careful. That toon is now capped, with a 3 piece Abashai set and a +3 supreme tome (As I planned on never TRing him). I have been incredibly careful to ensure that I don't lose the enhancement, as it makes that character different to play, and that is what I find the most enjoyment in; making toons that people wouldn't normally make, and making them 'somehow' work.

With a forced enhancement respec, I lose what makes Ognwe- special.

Maybe just incorporate crit rage into ravager and release that? Not a perfect solution but it may have merit.

[sirgog]

I somewhat like the sound of this.

Here's a mockup of an idea for how enhancements could be displayed:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l22/sirgog/Enhancements.jpg

Note that this has a few made-up enhancements as well as real ones (or real ones as best as I can remember them). I used Comic Sans purely to be evil, if you don't like it, bite me :)

[Cleanincubus]

Game wide resetting of enhancements is fine, as long as you have a big warning on the main game screen, as well as a big screen after you've logged in. Otherwise people will flip out.

And please, PLEASE, release the new UI on Lamannia well in advance. Basically enough time for changes to be made, before it hits the live server, if things are as bad as when the game's UI was changed. Even if a Beta version is released a whole update before it hits the Live server (i.e. the UI is set to go Live for U14, put it on Lamannia for the U14 preview, but don't send it to Live until U15).

[Vellrad]

I somewhat like the sound of this.

Here's a mockup of an idea for how enhancements could be displayed:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l22/sirgog/Enhancements.jpg

Note that this has a few made-up enhancements as well as real ones (or real ones as best as I can remember them). I used Comic Sans purely to be evil, if you don't like it, bite me :)

Nice, I like it!
But instead of saying 4 per level say each rank, except when you level up, as 4/level may lead to thinking that you get AP in moment of leveling.
Also, add in text search, and its how it could look in game! ;)

[MsEricka]

This doesn't sound bad so I have no real comments other than change is good, unless those changes suck.

[Anthios888]

More racial enhancements!

p.s. halfling sneak attack is 20 AP and half-elf sneak attack is 6?!

[Tocawe]

My Crit Rage II, Kensei I Dwarf just shed a tear :(.

Other than that, I'll welcome any improvements to the enhancement system.

[Kmnh]

Boo, all the crit rage bowbarians will be reset :(

[Sithias]

More PREs please before other enhancements as well as finishing those already implemented :)

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).


This is excellent news! As someone who has helped many hundreds of folks build toons over the 6+ years I've been playing, I'm happy to see you revisit this and clear up some confusion for many (such as what enhancements are required for which PrEs). This should be very well received within the character builders on the forum. Any builder thats worth an ounce of salt will explain that knowing WHY you are making a build decision is paramount to that build's success. Your proposed changes sound like you will really be helping them out...

I would like to know length of time that will occur between rebuilding enhancements and the release of any new PrEs.

Thank you again MadFloyd for the excellent level of communication of late!

[rodallec]

New prestiges are enhancements! do them too !

[Cetus]

I certainly hope that changes regarding pre reqs for PrE tiers can be made more practical and applicable to our goals. Examples of this are fighter attack boosts and critical accuracy for kensai, or picking up inspired bravery for warchanters. Simply unnecessary stuff.

[Vargouille]

My big question: are we going to be losing enhancements, as well as gaining new ones? If so, could we get a heads up?

Some enhancements may perish in the name progress. We're definitely not far enough along to get into that kind of specifics yet. Now is a good time to be giving us general input, though.


One thing as a definite heads up, you will probably want to give out feat respecs/lrs etc. for characters with prestiges that require enhancements and feats.

Good point. We're definitely keeping feat requirements in mind.


Easier way to distinguish what is required to qualify for a pre would be nice. As it is now you have to scroll through tons of enhancements to find you pre (some of which you dont even qualify for, melee with spell dmg lines anyone) or look it up online.

This is a big deal and we agree it's currently a problem.

[totabc]

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).



I'd like for existing PrEs to actually have a full line not just 1 or 2.

Edit: Spelling singer 3 is most important so do that one first.

[rocky007]

Sounds like every other mmo in the world....kinda got a bad feeling about this but i guess time will tell. My biggest concern would be that it locks you into a tree path, meaning that you are now a "Tank" or "DPS" and cant be both. The best part of this game for me and my small, tight nit guild has been the ability to fill many roles and if this prevents that then booo-f'ing-urns.

[sirgog]

Maybe just incorporate crit rage into ravager and release that? Not a perfect solution but it may have merit.

I like this idea.

I'm really hardpressed to see how Ravager would have a different play feel to Frenzied Berserker, however.

- +1 crit range: Roughly equivalent to +1 crit multiplier on 19-20 for Khopesh/Greataxe/DorfAxe
- +2 crit range: Roughly equivalent to +3 crit multiplier on 19-20 for Picks

Ravager is IMO a very hard PrE to design, I don't want to see it mirror FB's "+20 damage per swing, +15% damage, gain Supreme Cleave" feel but would rather see it made more unique.

[voodoogroves]

More racial enhancements!

p.s. halfling sneak attack is 20 AP and half-elf sneak attack is 6?!

It's only 6, but they are such a heavy 6 it feels like 20 ;-)



A pass at enhancements to give a lift to some of the weaker racial options would be awesome. And PREs.

[LeLoric]

Can we do away with the ap spent requirement of enhancements? The level requirement should be enough to limit things as far as acquiring them at a certain time. All the ap spent does is create some rare situations where points must be spent on things that people just don't want or need just to hit a certain ap spent requirement.

[Diyon]

I like the idea that the UI will be redone.

But as others have said, crit rage barbarians are going to be very sad (possibly very angry also). You let them keep their enhancements when you changed them as long as they didn't reset them. Its kind of cool to here about the builds running around still sporting these enhancements. It would be a shame to see investment in these characters destroyed not because of a decision that they needed to go, but as collateral damage from a UI change.

[oberon131313]

Maybe just incorporate crit rage into ravager and release that? Not a perfect solution but it may have merit.

I'd find that to be acceptable. With the changes to Banishing, WOP, and the like, Crit Rage II isn't the overpowered mess it once was. It's great for flavor though.

[LeLoric]

I like this idea.

I'm really hardpressed to see how Ravager would have a different play feel to Frenzied Berserker, however.

- +1 crit range: Roughly equivalent to +1 crit multiplier on 19-20 for Khopesh/Greataxe/DorfAxe
- +2 crit range: Roughly equivalent to +3 crit multiplier on 19-20 for Picks

Ravager is IMO a very hard PrE to design, I don't want to see it mirror FB's "+20 damage per swing, +15% damage, gain Supreme Cleave" feel but would rather see it made more unique.

Many effects that were crit rage breaking have been changed/nerfed anyways (wop, banishing, etc.) A 13-20 esos is a bit concerning though. Also a 13-20 terror could be a bit strong too.

[bkasavan]

New prestiges are enhancements! do them too !
This!!! Please.




As long as the changes to the Enhancements UI don't break Handwraps, I look forward to the update.

Don' worry, im sure they will, as with everything else :)


bought Sprint Boost IV. It just isn't worthy of 10 APs.
my ranger took it for at least 4 levels, so some... noobies... take it.




Since it's on topic, I'll give some ideas that probably someone will post while I type:


Remove ability bonus enhancements. At all. The only thing they do is adding power creep. Instead, add more class/racial enhancements that cover the niche the ability was covering. Eg, rogues could get a reflex enhancement line instead of a dex enhancement line. Hmm. interesting idea. Do you really think they effect (or is it affect?) it that much? if they do, i would hope they still keep at least 1 tier of it, because i often use it to balance out a stat. However, that idea seems quite good.
Prestige enhancements should be visible all the time for anyone check pre-requisites without needing to check a box. The tree UI should help on this.
YES YES YES. Please. This is the major reason why i think the re-haul will wonderful. Whenever i do enhancements on my cleric, I always have to have another window open with the Radiant servant prereq's, which aren't the easiest to find (and other classes too)
Be sure to not hurt gishes. That would be n ice, but are rangers really that under-powered vs Baraarians? I know my ranger, who is not that well equipped, and is a 28 point build, does some quite good damage
Racial weapon enhancements should be rebalanced. Not much to think about it. 6 AP for +2 damage is too much.
Remove the iron defender line. Now we have artificers.
Very much agreed on these two.
Show a screenshot of a quick draft of what you expect the new UI and new enhancements to be, so we can give more precise feedback. Please, if possible, or put it on Lamannia (Lammania?) well before releasing it, though i can see how you would be unable to do that.


~2¢

~4¢ in Red!

[Ganolyn]

Tumble - completely useless. First of all, to tumble you need to hold down shift and then press movement key. Change this so when a movement key is 'double pressed' (like in Unreal), toon does a roll. Also, try to adjust animation so it smoothly fits into attack sequence.


No. There are too many instances where this could go off unintentionally. Make it a key mapable toggle.

[Chai]

Many effects that were crit rage breaking have been changed/nerfed anyways (wop, banishing, etc.) A 13-20 esos is a bit concerning though. Also a 13-20 terror could be a bit strong too.

Hmmm 13-20 X3 eSOS or 15-20 X6 eSOS?

[Ganolyn]

You guys really need to advertise this on the log in (and possibly splash screen) pages when you get ready to do this so that people have a chance to take a screen shot of or write down their current Enhancements. Some players have altoholism and having to remember dozens of character's lists will be a chore.

[nibel]

That would be n ice, but are rangers really that under-powered vs Baraarians? I know my ranger, who is not that well equipped, and is a 28 point build, does some quite good damage

Once upon a time, rangers were the best melee around. +10 damage! Tempest II for multiple attacks. Many skills. Tons of free feats. A dwarven tempest with dual daxes was a monster. Then come the great nerf of TWF.

Everyone agrees that archery is very low DPS compared with a equally-equipped melee. And TWF rangers were nerfed. Add to it more different mobs walking around on endgame (Evil outsiders, Aberrations, Giants, Contructs, Elementals, Undeads, Monstrous Humanoids, Gnolls, Animals... everything appears on epic quests and endgame raids) diminishing the value of Favored Enemy... yep, rangers need a big revamp to be useful again. The only benefit rangers bring to most raids today is a full +5 barkskin if the tank dont have an epic seal of earth.

Paladins are in a similar condition. When Vale/Amrath were endgame, Knight of the Chalice was a no-brainer for any paladin. A paladin on Cannith quests today dont bring much more to the table than a fighter or barbarian. Even less than a ranger (most good paladin buffs are self-only). Fighters are better tanks (because they have more feats, and tanking requires a lot of feats), and barbarians are better DPS.

Obviously, that's just my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

[Chai]

The big one I would like to see:

The AP requirement done away with (class level is enough)

[dkyle]

Hmmm 13-20 X3 eSOS or 15-20 X6 eSOS?

Well, obviously 15-20/x6 would win, but that's not the actual comparison at hand.

For 13-20/x3 vs [15-18/x3 + 19-20/x6], the latter still wins. It's about 2 more multiples of base damage per 20 attacks.

Crit Rage is really not a good choice for any build, mechanically speaking. But it would be a shame to see it forcibly removed.

[Astraghal]

Be very careful how you go about this. It could have a more serious impact on the future of the game than anything we have seen. I cannot stress this enough. This will be a make or break thing for a lot of players.

[sirgog]

Hmmm 13-20 X3 eSOS or 15-20 X6 eSOS?

FB's get 15-18 x3 and 19-20 x6. That's higher in damage than 13-20 x3, but isn't anything like 15-20 x6.

Some on-crit procs do still exist and would favor crit rage over FB (Terror being the really potent one LeLoric pointed out, but at low/med levels even Bodyfeeder is relevant and thanks Voodoo for reminding me of Radiance 2 weapons), but nothing is like the old Crit Rage WoPbarians.


Edit: Oh and I hate grandfathering in old, no-longer-available enhancements like Crit Rage.
Either it is busted and needs to be nerfed (like the stacking tomes from level cap 10 days were, if the rumor is correct), or it is fine and newer players should be able to choose it. Don't leave newer players with forever less build options than vets have.

[voodoogroves]

FB's get 15-18 x3 and 19-20 x6. That's higher in damage than 13-20 x3, but isn't anything like 15-20 x6.

Some on-crit procs do still exist and would favor crit rage over FB (Terror being the really potent one LeLoric pointed out, but at low/med levels even Bodyfeeder is relevant), but nothing is like the old Crit Rage WoPbarians.

Radiance would even be pretty hot for its general irrestibility, plus I want to make an epic Whirlwind now.

[Xenostrata]

The big one I would like to see:

The AP requirement done away with (class level is enough)

I haven't looked at a specific list, but those are there for a reason. Without them, it would be simple to take all of the enhancements you normally take at endgame without taking the low level ones first. While I agree that they should be lowered (any light monk who has to take Improved Concentratjon will probably agree), I don't think they should be done away with entirely.

[pasterqb]

I would love it if you can disable the sight of some enhancements with a reset option of course. I cant tell you how frustrating it is to constantly see enhancements you will never want.

Do people really take Improved Skill enhancements except when they are needed for something and maybe Intim? Wouldnt mind getting rid of alot of enhancements not just skills like caster bonuses for non-casting classes and melee bonuses for casting classes.

[nibel]

Do people really take Improved Skill enhancements except when they are needed for something and maybe Intim? Wouldnt mind getting rid of alot of enhancements not just skills like caster bonuses for non-casting classes and melee bonuses for casting classes.

I got racial improved balance 4 on my WF wizard to reach the non-failure on titan balance. But I agree, there is few reasons to ever get improved <skill> in most builds. Very few skills really benefit from a +1~4 bonus (Mostly, Intimidate, Balance, and UMD for arties)

[Silverleafeon]

...We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work....

Nods happily!

[mourne]

I don't post often, ..... but here it goes. Since certain Dev's have started to contribute, this game has been getting more and more like WoW, other MMO's, and basically being dumbed down. This is a serious issue with many of us who play this game precisely because it is NOT LIKE the above and it requires a bit of thought to play it well.

Given that it was already identified that you are fixing something that is not broke, it stands to reason that a rational person would ask, then why change it?

It is also getting **** discouraging to see things like this, that take a significant amount of resources from developers, being done when there is sooooooo much else that needs to be done. Why not complete the PRE's? How about fixing the bug reporting system? Or here is a novel idea!! How about making more high level content or launch some new epic version of the old content????

This is why people leave. Some of schedule significant amounts of our time to play this game. This is our enjoyment, hobby, whatever. I've been playing since launch, no breaks, dealt with every nerf/change/balance issue and here we go with another one. To say it is not a nerf, then tell folks some enhancements will change.....it is a nerf. You know it, we know it. Will you folks just quite with all this tinkering around the edges and spend some real time developing the future of this game! To spend all this time and significant amount of resources and something the game or the player base doesn't need or hasn't pestered you for for years is really mind boggeling.

This game is on the verge of becoming either completely irrelevant or something completely unique and enjoyable in the world of MMO's. Driving the development into the same UI and other things that are common everywhere else and not finishing the enhancements that are already in at the expense of content does not engender high hopes.

In short, I think this is another death nail in this game. I hope I'm wrong

[mrtreats]

Having played other games like WOW i think you could just do as they all do make 3 trees one for each pre that have what we MUST take and the an extra tree with the extras

[Dopey_Power]

Could we perhaps have categories for the enhancements?

For instance, say I'm working on your stereotypical halfling rogue. There are the racial enhancements, the skill enhancements, etc.
I think it would be sort of nifty if I could uncheck a box, and suddenly all of the skill point enhancements (both racial and class based) get minimized or hidden. Or, say, I pick the "Acrobat" prestige class and everything not related to it is hidden until I say otherwise. I feel that could really streamline things. Most people (IMHO) would probably like a button on their half-elves that makes arcane archer go away while they're under "show unavailable" planning out their characters. Just a thought. I'm excited to see what you guys come up with!

[Elaril]

Good. Maybe you'll decrease the relative cost of some of the enhancements. Also, and I'm only speaking for myself here, if you screw this up, I'm fairly certain that it will be the last straw for me...for at least a month...ok a week.

[sirgog]

I would love it if you can disable the sight of some enhancements with a reset option of course. I cant tell you how frustrating it is to constantly see enhancements you will never want.

Do people really take Improved Skill enhancements except when they are needed for something and maybe Intim? Wouldnt mind getting rid of alot of enhancements not just skills like caster bonuses for non-casting classes and melee bonuses for casting classes.

This. This was why my mockup had different 'pages' for different categories of skills.

It's great that Warforged have the Brute Fighting enhancement, it's a useful build option (or it was in a previous endgame at least). It's just something I do not want to see in my way when selecting a Warforged Sorc's enhancement options.

Improved Skill enhancements could probably be merged somewhat. Spot and Listen, for example, could be combined into one enhancement that boosts both.

[BrianTheHun]

Whatever else you do, please don't take away rogue wand and scroll mastery. I've wanted this added for years, and it's finally here. :)

[fco-karatekid]

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ ....

That would normally be me, but since 1) that UI is one of the "unfinished" things I dislike and 2) you cite augmentation to enhancements; I'm good!

Thank you, and do you have an approximate timeline?

[Primalhowl]

Given that it was already identified that you are fixing something that is not broke, it stands to reason that a rational person would ask, then why change it?
<snip>
In short, I think this is another death nail in this game. I hope I'm wrong

Wow... point missed. I think you are having a bit of a reaction to the idea of a "tree" structure for enhancements (which we already have, even if it is not a visible tree structure). Just because WOW and other games do it, doesn't make it bad.

The enhancement system may not be broken, but the interface, for lack of a better term, sucks major donkey appendage. In fact, I don't think there many people who would disagree with me there.

Furthermore, the Devs have been adding and modifying enhancements with every other content release since the enhancement system was introduced. It is a messy, frankensteined system that could use some reorganization.

We've been through this process once before with enhancements, and people screamed that it was going to make the game just like WOW and the game would die. The *actual* result was a significant improvement to the game.

[smatt]

I have my fingers crossed....

BUT, I have a feelign that if you guys screw the pooch on this one MANY players will walk... After the last 6-8 months of total and compelte mess... This will be the last straw for many.....

I really do hope this goes well.... :)

[CaptGrim]

IF it is mainly just a UI change and making it less difficult to implement PrEs, good.

BUT if you tinker with the way things work, mechanically. Bad.

By going to a "tree" system like every other mmo, it could ruin what is for me the best part of this game and that is freedom of build choices and decisions.

As long as the main system remains I'll be happy and even take some adjustments to values and removal of antiquated enhancements. The UI and selection process is clunky to say the least and does need some user friendly improvements but the system itself is solid and does not need messed with.

[JakLee7]

If new Pre's are available good
if some "useless" enhancements are "fixed" then great
if this is some plot to get us to spend more TP - not cool.

I hope for the best.

[toaf]

ok. i would think if you are gona mess with it. at least make it so people can cange things a few times without having to wait 3 days. and maybe make sure the dicription is good. no more of this **** with taking it then finding out it shares a timer with something no one would ever think of (fusilage and arti % damage boost) thos are a few or my problems i could see popping up and for the love of the GODS make sure if something isnt gona stack. say soo... someone did say " By going to a "tree" system like every other mmo, it could ruin what is for me the best part of this game and that is freedom of build choices and decisions." <---that is soo true
and someone said this "if this is some plot to get us to spend more TP - not cool." also also true

[Ganak]

The current enhancement system is not make or break for a players experience and does not contribute to player retention.

Resources should go towards adding more PrC's, and more content the better. This does affect player retention.

[jkm]

Commentary UI:

I think the most painful UI Control in the game is the one in chest loot for switching from player to player. Making that one a List Control with checkboxes for submittal would be a 100x more beneficial.

New UI Requirements:

1. The ability to print to file -> This could be for all available or for just mine. Something that I can look at it and decide which ones are better.

2. For New Players -> Stars for the top 10 most popular enhancements available to that character, based on a top 10 count on the server.

3. For New Players -> A more intuitive method for explaining that clickable enhancements should go on their bars. Whether it auto-adds it to their bar or throws a bunch of arrows pointing them to drag it to their bar. Something.

4. A better rules engine -> Currently you use Cardinality, Minimum, Requires, and OR but only in a single tier. You definitely need the ability to nest rules as well as probably adding Maximum, AND, Recommends, and XOR to get the rest of the items that you need.

Recommends would make suggestions to new players in a box at the bottom and explain why. It could be similar text from the 101 guides done earlier.


Nesting will allows multiple ways to qualify for enhancements. This will really open up qualifying for enhancement lines for multi-classing by replacing Requires Paladin 6 with Requires Paladin 6 OR (Paladin 4 AND Rogue).


Adding the attribute Maximum will allow you to control overboard enhancement loading. Basically it will allow you to stack points on a set of enhancements if the chain is too overpowered without killing the enhancement line totally. Yes, it creates a more complicated system, but it also provides a method for penalizing min/maxing.


So some examples (random, no implied intent here):


1. Racial Toughness is 1/2/3/4 if base Constitution is <20 but it might be 2/3/5/8 if the base Con of the character is > 20.

edit
5. The ability to Hide Enhancements - Even better if its multi-select :D

[jkm]

The current enhancement system is not make or break for a players experience and does not contribute to player retention.

Resources should go towards adding more PrC's, and more content the better. This does affect player retention.

If you look into what he is saying, the current system is very labor intensive to add new enhancements. Part of the revamp is probably to make this more data driven so that it takes less dev hours to crank out more things.

[CanuckWisdom]

If your (turbine) looking for feedback and ideas here; There is lots to address Im sure but I'd suggest a look at balancing the enhancement cost of HotD with KotC. I cant remember if HotD is just more expensive or if its just that I would not take the prereq's for HotD 3 for any reason but to qualify.

[dkyle]

Adding the attribute Maximum will allow you to control overboard enhancement loading. Basically it will allow you to stack points on a set of enhancements if the chain is too overpowered without killing the enhancement line totally. Yes, it creates a more complicated system, but it also provides a method for penalizing min/maxing.

So some examples (random, no implied intent here):

1. Racial Toughness is 1/2/3/4 if base Constitution is <20 but it might be 2/3/5/8 if the base Con of the character is > 20.

This sounds awful. I see no good reason to have these sorts of punitive rules.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

I'd be absolutely fine with a one-time enhancement reset that makes room for a more intuitive UI and an easier enhancement selection process.

I can never remember when I planned to take specific enhancements, and so every visit to a trainer to do enhancements has me flipping back and forth between a character plan I have in a document file and the game itself. I'd be glad (and grateful) to stop needing to do that.

[dragons1ayer74]

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. Again, I invite PMs for those who prefer to voice their opinions that way.

Please don't force an enhancment reset, unless the player wants to make changes I still have a few characters that have a grand fathered enhancment that can't be choosen and on those few old beloved characters I hope that is not taken away.

[sirgog]

Commentary UI:

I think the most painful UI Control in the game is the one in chest loot for switching from player to player. Making that one a List Control with checkboxes for submittal would be a 100x more beneficial.

New UI Requirements:

1. The ability to print to file -> This could be for all available or for just mine. Something that I can look at it and decide which ones are better.

2. For New Players -> Stars for the top 10 most popular enhancements available to that character, based on a top 10 count on the server.

3. For New Players -> A more intuitive method for explaining that clickable enhancements should go on their bars. Whether it auto-adds it to their bar or throws a bunch of arrows pointing them to drag it to their bar. Something.

4. A better rules engine -> Currently you use Cardinality, Minimum, Requires, and OR but only in a single tier. You definitely need the ability to nest rules as well as probably adding Maximum, AND, Recommends, and XOR to get the rest of the items that you need.

Recommends would make suggestions to new players in a box at the bottom and explain why. It could be similar text from the 101 guides done earlier.


Nesting will allows multiple ways to qualify for enhancements. This will really open up qualifying for enhancement lines for multi-classing by replacing Requires Paladin 6 with Requires Paladin 6 OR (Paladin 4 AND Rogue).


Really like a lot of these suggestions.

The 'Recommended for New Players' could be ones you poll players about (example: Fighter Haste Boost 4 is widely considered one of the best enhancements in the game).


One suggestion that's about enhancement power rather than the UI - Can I suggest that the action boosts that provide a % increase in performance (Haste Boost, Damage Boost, and some others) grant their full power at tier 1, but with limited uses, and higher tiers grant more uses of them?

This would be useful because at present, Damage Boost 1 actually *decreases* DPS if you do not have Quick Draw or break its animation with Cleave.

My suggestion would let players use these enhancements better at low level. A +30% attack speed increase twice per rest is really noticeable, whereas a +15% one five times per rest is not. (IMO this would be a minor increase in character power for multiclass builds overall, but that would be pretty small).

[jkm]

Enhancements Architecture

I'm making this a separate section, because the current overaching design of the enhancement system isn't working. As it stands, the way that they are being utilized is in direct counterpoint to DDO's greatest strength -> Character Customization.

What the enhancement system SHOULD do

1. Create BILLIONS of viable permutations for players - The current implementation limits permutations by only making a few attractive. This is because a class is an order of magnitude better if they take a PrE than if they don't.

1A. There should be multiple ways to qualify for a PrE - Once again we are talking about increasing permutations.

Example:

Tempest 1 -> Ranger 6 or [TWF, ITWF, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise]

1B. They shouldn't be required to play a class


PrE's should provide niche flavor but be no more powerful overall than a character who took no PrEs.
It should also not increase in power over tiers, this provides disincentive to multi-class narrowing permutations further.
Base classes should have abilities that are as powerful as the other PrEs in the class effectively creating a new PrE of the base class (IE Assassin, Acrobat, Mechanic, Rogue). These would be unaccessible if you take a PrE.


1C. Each Tier should have multiple selectable abilities

Assassin 1 has 1 ability
Assassin 2 has 1 ability
Assassin 3 has 1 ability

This leaves us with 4 permutations for Assassins (You don't take it, You take tier 1, you take tier 1 and 2, you take 1, 2 and 3). All of this for thousands of hours of dev/test time. Now, by thinking about maximizing that Dev time here, we do the following for minimal more dev time.

Assassin 1 has 10 abilities and you choose 1
Assassin 2 has 10 abilities and you choose 1
Assassin 3 has 10 abilities and you choose 1

Wow, for probably 2x the investment I just increased our number of permutations to over a 1000. If you did this to all 3 Rogue PrEs as well as adding another PrE of Rogue as well as allowing methods to intermix the 3 PrEs you have millions of permutations. Permutations that buildoholics will try and try again.

1D. Multiclassing should be viable again - Remember the days when everyone complained there was no need to stay pure? Ah, the good ole days. The problem with the current PrEs is that a level 17 Barb is an order of magnitude less powerful than a level 18 Barb. Capstones have given more than enough incentive to stay pure, PrEs shouldn't too.

[noinfo]

Enhancements are what make and break this game and the individuality of all characters both classes and races.

They are ulitmately the reason why one race is more poweful by far than another and why some classes are sigficantly weaker than others in the same category (ie divine vs divine, arcane vs arcane and more clearly melee vs melee)

Taking care of the development and design of these is essential but a redevelopment is long long overdue.

Enhancements beyond 20 should be able to be earned and a wide variety of additional enhancements should be introduced both class, race and general.

And yes points costs on some pre need work.

[jkm]

This sounds awful. I see no good reason to have these sorts of punitive rules.

Variable costs can be rewarding or punitive. The example I was giving was just an example of trying to get the D4 hit point problem taken care of (where they are effectively D8 classes because they aren't penalized for min/maxing). It just gives the devs more tools to help balance classes.

As I said, the biggest issue would be the confusion created by it.

[jkm]

One suggestion that's about enhancement power rather than the UI - Can I suggest that the action boosts that provide a % increase in performance (Haste Boost, Damage Boost, and some others) grant their full power at tier 1, but with limited uses, and higher tiers grant more uses of them?

This would be useful because at present, Damage Boost 1 actually *decreases* DPS if you do not have Quick Draw or break its animation with Cleave.

My suggestion would let players use these enhancements better at low level. A +30% attack speed increase twice per rest is really noticeable, whereas a +15% one five times per rest is not. (IMO this would be a minor increase in character power for multiclass builds overall, but that would be pretty small).

I'd be okay with this as long as they move to more "active" instead of "always on".

[fco-karatekid]

IF it is mainly just a UI change and making it less difficult to implement PrEs, good.

BUT if you tinker with the way things work, mechanically. Bad.

By going to a "tree" system like every other mmo, it could ruin what is for me the best part of this game and that is freedom of build choices and decisions.

As long as the main system remains I'll be happy and even take some adjustments to values and removal of antiquated enhancements. The UI and selection process is clunky to say the least and does need some user friendly improvements but the system itself is solid and does not need messed with.

I never played wow or any other MMO - how'd the tree limit choice (real question, not being snarky)?

First thing I thought of was Civilization's tech tree, so I thought this'd be a good thing from a user perspective.

[Vormaerin]

I'd be okay with this as long as they move to more "active" instead of "always on".

? What is always on about boosts?



Anyway, I am strongly in favor of a revamp of the UI. It really is terrible. I'm not able to make the mental link between our current enhancements and a tree system so I can't really comment on that. But... OMG is taking a fighter splash a good way to make your enhancement list practically unusable.. *ewww*.

I do hope that the changes increase rather than decrease flexibility. Some classes like Bard and Paladin have more good enhancements than they can possibly buy....mostly due to expensive and useless prerequisites.

I don't want everyone to be able to buy everything, though. I'm definitely looking forward to more information on this.

[Ganolyn]

One suggestion that's about enhancement power rather than the UI - Can I suggest that the action boosts that provide a % increase in performance (Haste Boost, Damage Boost, and some others) grant their full power at tier 1, but with limited uses, and higher tiers grant more uses of them?

This would be useful because at present, Damage Boost 1 actually *decreases* DPS if you do not have Quick Draw or break its animation with Cleave.

My suggestion would let players use these enhancements better at low level. A +30% attack speed increase twice per rest is really noticeable, whereas a +15% one five times per rest is not. (IMO this would be a minor increase in character power for multiclass builds overall, but that would be pretty small).

I brought up this very point in my own thread and not only got told it wasn't important (basically because it seems low level toons don't count for anything), I got neg rep for defending my position. Damage Boost is broken because of the % style they implemented and should work more like this:

Damage Boost I = +10% or +2, which ever is greater

Damage Boost II = +15% or +3, which ever is greater

Damage Boost III = +20% or +4, which ever is greater

Damage Boost IV = +25% or +5, which ever is greater

[jkm]

? What is always on about boosts?

Always on = static boosts like +3 crit mod or +10% attack speed just because you take enhancements. Autoattacking shouldn't come close to the dps of an active attacker.

[walkingwolfmike]

If you can add in a new " Summon Kobold Companion " enchancement, we can call it square. No, this is not an attempt to be funny. I want my Kobold Companion!

[Phemt81]

Are you thinking to improve only the enhancements' UI?

I mean, are there gonna be variations about their impact on gameplay?

Surely a good thing anyway. :)

[Flavilandile]

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.


Well with the explanations below it doesn't sound as fixing something that is not broken, that's preparing something not broken but that wasn't implemented the right way for a major update.

That's when things are done out of the blue and without any explanation that we go all nerdrage about fixing things not broken.



We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).


I hate that particular UI too, it's always a pain to find the enhancement you want to take and it's even more painful to find the enhancements pre-requisites ( as by default you don't see the enhancements that you cannot take ). So when you want say Radiant Servant II ( pre-requisite RS I, and a bunch of other things, including a minimim level ) every level, once you have RSI ( with it's own mess of pre-requisites ) you spend a lot of time
moving up and down the list, after activating the 'show all', to select the right stuff... and you have to rinse repeat everytime.



We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).


Might be better... Especially if there's a feature that remember where we want to go.

For example if I want to go to RS II, the tree remember that from one talk to the trainer to the next one, and
suggest me the right enhancements.
Or even better ( in my opinion, though I see that it can have some drawbacks ) once I select a target enhancement to reach and validate the selection, everytime I talk to the trainer to level, the relevant enhancements in between will be automatically selected according to the points I can spend until I reach my targeted enhancement.
( think Civilization Technology tree where you can select the Technology you want and the game will automatically select the relevant intermediate technology to research )



It will also be the foundation for some future work.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.


*shrug*

Already happened once... long long ago... when the enhancement system was changed from what it was originally to what it is now. just make sure the trainers are ready to work overtime.

[Farayon]

Creating skill trees sounds a lot like adding more prereq's and forcing everyone into the same set of enhancements which is dull.

I hope that we'll see more choices, more variety, more differences, more options, more room for oddities and personal preferences.

Races and classes should play very differently and this is an opportunity to improve on that aspect. Balancing the whole thing is where the dev's nightmare comes true.

[bhgiant]

implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).
‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.
this is all I really care about

[sirgog]

I never played wow or any other MMO - how'd the tree limit choice (real question, not being snarky)?


In WOW's pre-Catacylsm system, you had 7 tiers of talents, each in one of 3 categories per class. Example: Beacon of Light was a tier 7 Holy talent for Paladins, Holy being the healing 'tree'.

As a tier 7 talent, to take Beacon you had to have spent 50 points in the Holy tree. (You had a total of 71 points)

Basically this prevented you from taking the best healing and defensive talents on one character - you had to make a choice between, say, Beacon of Light (which was basically mandatory for healers) and Ardent Defender (effectively mandatory for tanks).

What this would translate to in DDO - Imagine if taking 'Favored Soul Life Magic 4' had so many healing-oriented prerequisites that it basically locked out taking 'Favored Soul Damage Boost 3' and vice versa.

Monks almost get this at the moment - it is almost impossible to take Void 4 and also take Ninja Spy 2 or Shintao 2. But in WoW it was standard.

I don't think MF is talking about copying that system, more using a UI that is closer to the WoW talent UI than the mess we have now.

[Havok.cry]

If this makes pale master summons useful I will love you. When I play a necromancer its cause I want undead minions. Id like to do that without crippling myself and them still being next to useless.

Edit: Id also like to add my voice to those worried that these trees would lock characters into paths. One of the biggest draws this game has for me is its versatility. Locking me in like that would be the gamekiller for me. Please please do not do that. I am hoping that by tree you are talking about making the ui simpler to understand by making it more visually accesible that the current lists are. I am hoping your not talking about a WoW like talent tree.

[QuantumFX]

MadFloyd - OK, a U.I. redesign for enhancements. My main concern is “Is it an actual improvement or just changing stuff for the sake of changing stuff?” I can't help you answer that without pics, or maybe a Lamannia build.

[fco-karatekid]

In WOW's pre-Catacylsm system, you had 7 tiers of talents, each in one of 3 categories per class. Example: Beacon of Light was a tier 7 Holy talent for Paladins, Holy being the healing 'tree'.

As a tier 7 talent, to take Beacon you had to have spent 50 points in the Holy tree. (You had a total of 71 points)

Basically this prevented you from taking the best healing and defensive talents on one character - you had to make a choice between, say, Beacon of Light (which was basically mandatory for healers) and Ardent Defender (effectively mandatory for tanks).

What this would translate to in DDO - Imagine if taking 'Favored Soul Life Magic 4' had so many healing-oriented prerequisites that it basically locked out taking 'Favored Soul Damage Boost 3' and vice versa.

Monks almost get this at the moment - it is almost impossible to take Void 4 and also take Ninja Spy 2 or Shintao 2. But in WoW it was standard.

I don't think MF is talking about copying that system, more using a UI that is closer to the WoW talent UI than the mess we have now.


ok, i dig now, and yah - as I was reading, I was thinking "like monks". indeed, that would suck!

+1 if it lets me, thanks!

[morticianjohn]

Sounds good. I was lvl 9 on my cleric before I figured out how to get radiant servant when I was fairly new. It will be nice if it helps new players could understand things more. I will enjoy it also if I don't have to scroll through all the skill enhancements every time.

[red_cardinal]

Some enhancements may perish in the name progress. We're definitely not far enough along to get into that kind of specifics yet. Now is a good time to be giving us general input, though.



yes, but first... GUI.

http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa366/red_cardinal/ddosug1.png
http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa366/red_cardinal/ddosug2.png
http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa366/red_cardinal/ddosug3.png

Some of my suggestions. Nothing special.

My first task on my first programmer job was to do an support multiselected drag&drop operation on a tree control... Wee, how fun!

[Infant]

Probably has been said already:

-- Unique icon for every enhancements (at least for every active one)

-- Prerequisites: Consider redesigning prerequisites for PrE to be at least somewhat useful: Inspire Bravery is needed for WCI but is, in fact, useless. Even if you made Balance.

-- Some PrE are extremely AP-strapped. I think Paladins are part of this. But Spellsingers for sure: it would be kind of nice if Spellsingers could max the healing line (without crits), the scroll healing, their song duration and value (still behind Warchanters!) and pick up spell penetration enhancements. Then they would be able to heal, scroll-heal and CC without being excellent at any of these tasks (except scroll-healing). It would be nice to balance-out PrE or classes for power in this way.

-- Redesigning AP-values for divine spells (like U9 for arcanes) for more flexibility.

Infant

[Deathdefy]

I'm not sold on the need for a new enhancement UI.

I am sold on you taking a look at Enhancements, including a UI change and making it easier to change and add to Enhancements in the future.

Packaging! Put the good stuff first.

[karl_k0ch]

From my personal experience, I see three things where a revamp would help to balance the classes/races.


Halfling Cunning/Guile vs. Half-Elf Rogue Dilly. I know it's not the same, but the bonuses are similar. Yet the requirements for the Halfling are much steeper.
Paladins. The APs on a pally are generally horribly tight, and this does not help the paladins being no match for other DPS classes, such as Barb, Fighter, Monk, or even Ranger. Paladins as DPS need a boost, and relaxed AP costs can help there.
Drow. Drow are generally nice already, but their bonuses pale in comparison to other races. The racial Dex doesn't help for most builds at all. My suggestion would be a mechanic similar to the human adaptability, but only with Dex, Cha and Int. This way, Drow would get an edge over humans, putting them a potential +2 ahead of humans.

[Kathul]

I have never heard a single complaint about enhancements, UI or no. Make a new topic or fix Pre's first , C'Mon man

[magnefique]

As a relatively new player I think this is fantastic. The draw for me to come to DDO with all the choices out there are two-fold:

1. Character customization - best in any MMO I have played.
2. Excellent dungeon running experience.

In the thread on difficulty ( and i was likely off topic ) I went into detail regarding my issues with the enhancement UI and the key is we need to see:

1. all possibilities based on level/char
2. Stat changes etc BEFORE we commit
3. see 1+2 all on the screen at once, that scrolling list is a bit nuts

So glad you are changing this and can't wait to see it !

[wax_on_wax_off]

I've got a bad feeling about this.

Are we going to see some interesting multiclass builds being nerfed?
Are we going to see balancing for PvP?
Are we going to see a reduction in the versatility that builds are capable of?
Are we going to see a reduction in active combat?

The big thing that worries me is that I suspect that all of the changes that I wouldn't want the average punter might actually pay money for. However, revenue now does not equal a quality game. What are the priorities? Make money now? Quality game?

Oh, and what's the time frame for this?

[MnaSidhe]

I think it would be a great improvement, if some PrE choices were not mutually exclusive, because of what is essentially the same enhancement.

For Example:

Hunter of the Dead vs Radiant Servant (for me actually one of the more logical PrE combinations).

HotD requires Paladin Improved Turning
RS requires Cleric Improved Turning...

so one could never be both...

Simple problems like that could be avoided with just having one "Improved Turning" enhancement line... then I would not have had to turn my HotD into DoS... :/

[Tid12]

I think a look at this new UI would be REALLY appreciated Madfloyd. That way, we can give you more feedbacks and that would turn into a real "Let's talk" thread.

Still, I appreciate the efforts to start these threads.

[donfilibuster]

Warning, long text made at 4:00 am. but hopefully comprehensive.
Short version: ditch 'trees' that don't allow multiple selection.



We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).


Kudos for working on the enhancement UI, it definitely needs a brush up, but please clarify if it is just a UI thing or involves mechanics.
Some guildies were talking about this and share the worry about the 'tree' concept, reading this thread makes apparent it is a common concern for us players.

The word itself of 'tree' evokes the 'pathing' issue, where you can choose one branch but not the other.
Organizing the display in leaves might work with flexible prerrequisites if the purpose is to show the player the chain of enhancements that belong to a relation.

It could be semantics but for example, engineering often uses the tree structure for the pathing while designers may be thinking of the expand/collapse of branches.
The latter is more like the idea of trimming the choices but is still a tree and thus not particularily good for complex relations.
I'd suggest ditching it both calling it a tree and making it a tree. Maybe some other thing can be used, like tabs.
Tabs are good to trim down a selection while still allowing options to appear whenever available, conditioned to the relation and not neccessarily to the path.

With tabs i don't mean horizontal tabs like browser tabs but more like vertical tabs, those that expand to the side like a dynamic menu.
You can do multiple selection, not limited to the last children, and definitively able to have multiple parents.

Gonna get back to display options before the end of this post, but want to make sure the UI vs. paths thing is noted.
The 'path' problem seems clear to players of other games, i have not played WoW but the civ tech tree comes to mind.
I'm sure many players choose DDO for the builds and customization, being able to fine tune or try different things.

Build making is a MMO thing, and customization is a big point on 3e D&D.
On 4e they choose paths but for other purposes, such as to make a typical setting on the growing sea of d20 alternatives.
That's fine by itself, just not particularily extendable. Paths also limit your available choices.
(and DDO is already simplified, fairly weighted to MMO roles rather than versatile classes like in PnP)

Character making, on the other hand, has a lot to do with describing the things your hero can do.
The prerrequisites are there to make sense, e.g. if you are stealthy you may be good at hide and move silent.
The rogue vs. thief illustrate that you could be a lot of things, acrobat, assasin, treasure hunter, etc.
A pure rogue would have most of the abilities but a splash would just have a background on them.
Likewise in 3e the class levels won't make the toon, taking a paladin level doesn't make you a paladin unless you want to.
Classes would be building blocks and you'd be the one saying if the hero would be a crusader warrior or a knightly cleric.

To this end the enhancement system work wonders, specially for prestige options.
This is often misunderstood or criticized by PnP players but it doesn't differ in the roots.
The DMG encourages the DM to only choose the prestige classes that fit the setting.
In this light the enchancements are a good way to let us do the builds instead of having to choose from a preset list.
The devs that are like the DM let us do the customization, which are then balanced with the point cost.

With the enhancements we can pick abilities for a role, like in a MMO, or drop the top costly ones to get multiple smaller ones.
You still need to watch the trade offs, but otherwise you pick the building blocks.
The requisites are also relationed, if you can twf (being ambidexterous) it makes sense you have high dex.
But there could be multiple ways to qualify, the easiest of which is a class level, e.g. if you are a ranger.
(a not-so-easiest to get twf, in PnP, is if you have two heads ;) )

With so many options to choose from, which can be confusing to a new player, the paths are indeed one way to trim things down, but need not be the only one.
Obviously the plain list has its problems, and the level and points requisites makes it extra complex.
e.g. when you need to take out a lesser enhancement and you have to start over because you no longer had the action points required for the rest of your choices.
That's lost time that the new player could have spent in finding what works with what and the related options.

Instead, the new display should help you pick the enhancements you want.
An idea would be to be able to pick from the unavailables and list them together with the requisites so you can easily pick them together.
They'd be grayed out rather than removed, so you can activate and deactivate each enhancement until you make them fit (paying the point cost).
This can be as simple or detailed as the devs want to code it, on the simplest form it can be as it is but letting you pick things in advance, on the most detailed form you could sort or group the display by multiple criteria.

e.g. In the current UI, you have one long list to the left and the selections on the right, which works fine if you are taking the enhancements as you level.
But if you reset them you have to begin tinkering and moving enhancements back and forth until you fit em all.
The left panel has no filters nor grouping, you have to scroll up and down a very long list of things you don't know until you read em each.
This left panel can use some group labels such as to get all skills together, etc.
It can also use a table view to list level, cost, requisites, etc. without having to check each one by one.
The right panel is useless as it is, it just lists what you have picked.
This right panel would be more useful if you can pick all the things you want from the long list and only then begin turning them on until you spend the points you have.
No longer you'll have to redo the picking and scrolling multiple times, just get what you want and begin spending points.

There's definitely no easy way to get this on a single box, which i suspect is where the 'tree' comes into.
Let's not be lazy with the UI, if it takes a multiple selection with two or three boxes or panels, so be it.
Same if it'd take tabs, accordion, checkboxes, toggles, drag and drop or whatever. After all it is about usability.
Coding shouldn't be an issue, this is done all the time in websites, etc. that use complex hierarchies.

As an example it comes to mind the menu selection of the dvd of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
It is nothing out of this world yet whoever designed it clearly had to tinker something that was remotely up to the task depicting the guide.
And they did it with colored tabs, so it gave an impression it had tons of options like the guide would have.

I myself would not panic, the dev on this is a flying head with tentacles, which is more than two hands at work :P
The worry is just to not break things as we'd be quick to hint and duly noted by the OP.

If the problem is the UI because it's hard to use, yeah that need fixing, if enhancements need be redone to pave the way for the PrEs, that's good too.
But if it it involves simplyfiing toon building just because it is too bulky to new players, then no thanks, let us keep perusing the long list manually, we need more options in this game not to take them away.

[Trippy]

I know UI is the first step atm, but I would really like a review of how feats and enhancements that overlap interact, because I think a solution would effect the UI. Right now very few enhancements interact with feats and those that do are mostly pre-requisists rather then synergetic interactions.

For example Improved Turning Enhancement and Improve Turning Feat. Feats "cost" more so should either be better, have extra effects or have some reason to get both. In this case though, there is no difference between the two in effect and no paticular reason to get both. Neither of Feat nor Enhancement work with other Turning related Feats or Enhancements either. A whole pile of possible synergy just going to waste.

Possibilites could be making the feat make the enhancement line cost slightly less AP, The turning based enhancements use the cleric's(or paladin's) effective level as part of their math, or the feat just tack on one more effective tier to each turning related enhancement, kinda like the paladin's DoS PRE does with paladin Auras.

With only the PRE's and Toughness enhancements interacting with feats the kinda kludgy way they are handled in the UI works, but I would really like to see more interaction between feats and enhancements and a UI that supported it cleanly.

[Pwesiela]

I'm going to repost this here, for condenseness:


Was thinking about this today and thought I'd give an update as to the progress. It's kindof sad considering it's been 3 years.


Artificer: Battle Engineer, Runic Champion (?), Mastermaker (?) 1/9 - 1 that is 1/3 done, 2 that are just guesses as to the name
Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer, Ravager 1/3 - 1 fully done
Bard: Spellsinger, Virtuoso, Warchanter 2/3 - 3 that are 2/3 complete
Cleric: Exorcist of the Silver Flame, Radiant Servant, Warpriest 2/9 - 1 that is 2/3 complete
Favored Soul: Divine Avenger, Beacon of Hope, Angel of Vengeance 2/9 - 1 that is 2/3 complete
Fighter: Kensai, Purple Dragon Knight, Stalwart Defender 2/3 - 2 that are complete
Monk: Henshin Mystic, Shintao Monk, Ninja Spy 5/9 - 1 that's complete, 1 that's 2/3
Paladin: Defender of Siberys, Hunter of the Dead, Knight of the Chalice 3/3 - all 3 finished, and the only class that is such
Ranger: Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Tempest 5/7 - 2 complete, 1 at 1/3.
Rogue: Assassin, Mechanic, Thief-Acrobat 7/9 - 1 complete, 2 at 2/3
Sorcerer: Acolyte of the Skin, Air Savant, Cold Savant, Earth Savant, Fire Savant 12/15 - 4 complete, 1 not even started (or you could say 1/2 if you lump the savants together as Elemental Savant, but I won't do that here)
Wizard: Archmage, Pale Master, Wild Mage 8/11 - 2 finished, 1 not even started

Human: Cannith Dragonmark Heir, Deneith Dragonmark Heir, Orien Dragonmark Heir, Tharashk Dragonmark Heir 0/12 - none, if you think each will be 3 tiers total
Dwarf: Kundarak Dragonmark Heir, Dwarven Defender [Counts as Fighter] 0/6 - none, even though stalwart defender is in the game and should be easy to move over
Elf: Arcane Archer [Counts as Ranger], Phiarlan Dragonmark Heir 1/4 - since AA technically only has 1 teir at the moment still
Halfling: Jorasco Dragonmark Heir 0/3 - not even started
Warforged: Warforged Juggernaut [Counts as Barbarian] 0/3 - not even started
Drow: Scorpion Wraith [Counts as Rogue] 0/3 - not even started, even though assassin is complete and should be the same PrE (since it count's as rogue)
Half-Orc: Who knows...we don't
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Who knows...we don't. Phiarlan Dragonmark Heir?


You finish these, and people have a reason to play the whole game all over again.


For game re-play-ability, PrE's are key. You want people TRing, LRing, respeccing, featswapping? This is how you do it.

I sincerely hope that when this goes through, you take serious time to add in A LOT of PrEs. Indeed, I'd imagine you'd have a tone of people very happy were there to be a PrE focused update with only minor quest additions (knowing that dev teams work on different things, may as well have the quest people do something.... Maybe add some good xp lvl 11 quests.)

Also, keep in mind that you likely still have crit rage barbarians out there that would be disappointed to have their enhancements automatically respecced. Now, were ravager and occult slayer to be introduced in a completed form, and should one of those integrate some of crit rage, you'd probably forestall all revolt.


In sum...



Add PrEs.

[Nataichal]

I'm cautious about this, largely because I LIKE the ability to regularly reset my enhancements, and can take different things in whatever order I'd like to a certain extent. Also, a 'tree' gives me this feeling that I might lose access to things that I can currently use due to some artificially added branching. Enhancements are one of the best customization abilities in game; don't bork it.

[Urist]

A chieftain stands in his yurt after a successful battle, and asks the assembled generals:
Chieftain: "What is best in enhancements?"
General: "The most effective choices, getting the most bonuses for your AP, minmaxing your DPS."
Cheiftain: "Wrong! Conan, what is best in enhancements?"
Conan: "To choose your PrE, to have the prerequisites selected before you, and to still have AP left for healing amp."

To wit:
My primary concern, when selecting enhancements, is usually the PrE/s I want to take. IMO, these are so important to most builds, that they should on a separate and vastly more prominent part of the UI.
It would be useful, at any level, to select one or more "target" PrEs, and have its prerequisites somehow highlighted (but not automatically taken, due to the otherwise completely useless prereqs most PrEs have). Ideally, this also includes prerequisite feats, though we're then straying into another UI element...


Trees ... branching ... WoW ... reduced customisability ...
I think you're all reading way too much into this. It seemed obvious to me that MadFloyd was clearly just talking about the UI. Newsflash folks - we already have a "tree" structure in the enhancement UI, it's just that there's currently only one level of nesting most of the time.
I suspect the suggested "tree" (UI) design is more to categorise and sub-categorise things, like:
Magic -> Spell Augmentation -> Healing Augmentation -> Prayer of Life
Skills -> Useless skills -> Improved Swim
Combat -> Damage -> Pompius Elven Weapon Damage
Combat -> Abilities -> Rage -> Critical rage (OK, maybe not ;) )

That way, when you first open the enhancements UI, you're greeted with just five or six categories, rather than a list larger than a Greatclub of the Scrag (http://ddowiki.com/page/Greatclub_of_the_Scrag).

[markusthelion]

You guys really need to advertise this on the log in (and possibly splash screen) pages when you get ready to do this so that people have a chance to take a screen shot of or write down their current Enhancements. Some players have altoholism and having to remember dozens of character's lists will be a chore.

/This.

Not only do I have alt-itis, my memory sucks from only playing 3-4 hrs a week now and I just want my characters to be the same as before or better. But new IU is a welcome improvement, but please give me a heads up first!

[learst]

I got racial improved balance 4 on my WF wizard to reach the non-failure on titan balance. But I agree, there is few reasons to ever get improved <skill> in most builds. Very few skills really benefit from a +1~4 bonus (Mostly, Intimidate, Balance, and UMD for arties)

Don't forget the PD players who don't twink or obsess over the AH and hand-me-downs.

I think leaving some enhancements for flavour would be good, not everything has to catered only for a geared/crafting/twinked players.

[PNellesen]

As long as I still can haz mah RSII aura, it's all good :)

And thanks for sharing! Much appreciated.

[Darkrok]

Done well this will be a wonderful addition to the program.

Just don't forget that it's the overwhelming customization available in DDO that makes the character building system so wonderful. I'd highly recommend that the 'trees' are reserved for PrE pre-req's or other spots that they're currently applicable and the ability to pick certain unrelated AP's is preserved.

[Bolo_Grubb]

I am going to go hide in a corner and cry at the thought of having to spend the time redoing the enhancements for all my alts. :P


and make sure I have all my builds up to date so I all the information I need to redo them when the time comes.

[My2Cents]

Thank you very much for giving us the opportunity to give feedback and share conversation with you.

I'm sure many others will address important concepts, but I just wanted to request that...

...any UI decisions be made with the notion of keeping them viable for those who are colorblind and/or visually impaired. Please keep the text large enough and the contrast between text and background stark, or allow a UI option to do so, especially if this will be the interface for future work.

Also please test the new UI for viability in 800x600 screen mode.

Thanks for your consideration.


(Remember, DnD players grow older too - think of all that retirement time, and monthly subscribers!)

(You think I am kidding? In my previous MMO I met many people that fit this....People who have time on their hands because of retirement or disability are a perfect market for, and stabilizing player base for DDO.)

[Ralmeth]

Great idea! I've learned to live with the current enhancement UI, but this would be helpful. Most importantly, balancing class power with these enhancements is going to be the most critical.

[nibel]

Don't forget the PD players who don't twink or obsess over the AH and hand-me-downs.

I think leaving some enhancements for flavour would be good, not everything has to catered only for a geared/crafting/twinked players.

I know. That's why i said "few" reasons. Leveling rogues also benefit greatly from trap skills.

[Meat-Head]

I got racial improved balance 4 on my WF wizard to reach the non-failure on titan balance. But I agree, there is few reasons to ever get improved <skill> in most builds. Very few skills really benefit from a +1~4 bonus (Mostly, Intimidate, Balance, and UMD for arties)


WHAT!? Listen pal, every point of SWIM I can get on my Michael Phelps build barbarian beyond my SF: Swim feat, helps, ok?

If you can't keep up underwater, that's YOUR problem! I'll show you what zergy xp runs of Shadow Guard look like bud.

[GermanicusMaximus]

I don't post often, ..... but here it goes. Since certain Dev's have started to contribute, this game has been getting more and more like WoW, other MMO's, and basically being dumbed down. This is a serious issue with many of us who play this game precisely because it is NOT LIKE the above and it requires a bit of thought to play it well.

Given that it was already identified that you are fixing something that is not broke, it stands to reason that a rational person would ask, then why change it?

It is also getting **** discouraging to see things like this, that take a significant amount of resources from developers, being done when there is sooooooo much else that needs to be done. Why not complete the PRE's? How about fixing the bug reporting system? Or here is a novel idea!! How about making more high level content or launch some new epic version of the old content????

This is why people leave. Some of schedule significant amounts of our time to play this game. This is our enjoyment, hobby, whatever. I've been playing since launch, no breaks, dealt with every nerf/change/balance issue and here we go with another one. To say it is not a nerf, then tell folks some enhancements will change.....it is a nerf. You know it, we know it. Will you folks just quite with all this tinkering around the edges and spend some real time developing the future of this game! To spend all this time and significant amount of resources and something the game or the player base doesn't need or hasn't pestered you for for years is really mind boggeling.

This game is on the verge of becoming either completely irrelevant or something completely unique and enjoyable in the world of MMO's. Driving the development into the same UI and other things that are common everywhere else and not finishing the enhancements that are already in at the expense of content does not engender high hopes.

In short, I think this is another death nail in this game. I hope I'm wrong

There's a lot that I agree with in here. Spending scarce developer resource time (and it must be scarce given the lack of timely bug fixes in this game) on tweaking something that, while less than ideal, is not broken seems to be a misallocation of resources. The last time we went down this road was when the party UI was "improved" in Update 11. Not coincidently, that was when the server population really started to decline at a steep rate. I'd suggest treading carefully here.


Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.


If it actually is an enabler to reduce the overall cost of future game development, its worth doing, assuming the amount of time you spend designing and subsequently tweaking the UI doesn't in the end cost more than your future projected savings. The bigger the changes you make here, the more likely your net savings will be small or nonexistent. Once again, the Update 11 UI changes (and the subsequent rework and impact to the user community) should be reason to step back and reassess what you are about to do.



The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs).

The primary class imbalance issue you have in this game is a lack of divine casters. That is apparent from the LFM panel showing all the groups waiting on a cleric or FvS. Conversely, there is a glut of melee toons in this game. Basic supply/demand rules apply here: buff what is scarce, nerf (or leave unchanged) what is in abundance.

People in this game primarily prefer the path of least resistance. If you doubt that, just recheck your thread on the Shroud and all the cries for nerfing Shroud normal. Melee classes currently provide the path of least resistance in this game. Look at what people do, not what they moan about in the forums.

Buffing the wrong classes here will perpetuate and aggravate the current problems, not solve them.

[Shade]

Sounds like more ways to nerf melee.

Thats what the last major enhancement overhaul did. Many of the best enhancements disappeared or got nerfed without any discussion.

Don't do that again please. Expand melees selection of enhancements, dont limit it.

[ArcaneMelee]

I've got a bad feeling about this.

Are we going to see some interesting multiclass builds being nerfed?
...

I honestly don't see how this wouldn't be an outcome. Cross your fingers, and hope ours dodge the bullet :D

Edit: Considering the size of the impact of an enhancement change, make that a "sawed-off-buckshot".

[GoldyGopher]

My two CP on this discussion:

I realize not everything I say will be popular to the masses.

The UI is majorly outdated. When it was release it seemed like a quick merger of the old four-enhancement system with the new Action Point system.

The UI needs to have a tabbed system, not on my big computer so this is only a text version of my thoughts.

II ALL || Race || Class || Stats || Skills || Combat || Spells ||

Things should be listed under multiple tabs/categories where appropriate. For example “Paladin Toughness” should be under All, Class, and Stats.

Moving into the actual Enhancements
The cost of Enhancements need to be evaluated, sorry but there are some that just don’t seem to be in tune with the game as it has grown from Level 12 cap to level 20 cap. Examples have already been given.

Don’t front load the enhancement. Right now to many players take one of this and one of that because the biggest bang for the buck is the first AP spent. I personally think a Bell Curve is a better model. For example “Sorcerer Wand and Scroll Mastery Line” is currently 25, 10, 10, 10 in percentage increase in my book it should be 10, 15, 20, 10 or maybe 10, 20, 20, 10. Right now there are just too many front loaded enhancements. (And what makes it worse they are not at points where it is easy to spend points).

Look at the Prerequisite costs of each enhancements, some prerequisites don’t make sense 3 AP spent or Level 2. I know low level example but it much clearer when you look at that way. One or the other is fine but not both.

There needs to be more low level enhancements that provide some benefit. Bard, Sorcerer, and Paladin all have dead spots where you end up wasting an AP to get to next level (10 and 40 AP comes to mind).

Every enhancements should be available to every character things like class and race should only reduce their cost. For example if I want to use a Rapier as a human I should have access to +1/+2 to Attack and Damage. Being an Elf should just reduce the cost.
I would add the same concept to Enhancements that have Feat Requirements. Toughness springs to mind, if I have the Toughness feat the Toughness line should be reduced from 3, 4, 5, 6 to 2,2,3,3 and if I have the correct Race 1, 1, 2, 2. You can set the cost of not having something pretty high, but even complicated PrE like Tempest should be available without having the Feats.

PrE should have a PrE 0 (zero) level that has a minimal cost but reduces the cost to get items in that line. Thinking about Sorcerers here for an example, Taking Earth Savant 0 reduces the cost of the Acid attack and damage modifiers by 1 (you would have to increase their cost by 1 to do this).

There should be epic versions of all PrEs.

I am not a fan of removing any Enhancements regardless of how useless most of think they are. I am reminded of the discussion of how useless “Sap” feat was until a solo player popped on and said it great you can do this.

Without seeing how you are going to do “Trees” I can only provide general feedback. I am not adverse to skill trees if it does not limit my choices. There is a big game in which once you make a mistake it takes upwards of hundreds of hours to rectify and I hope DDO doesn’t follow that path. On the other hand I am not averse to making some changes.

I like many others can add more detail as we get more information on what you are thinking about.

[DragonTroy]

Over all, I think you have already gotten what you wanted in the way of feedback Madfloyd, there is a LOT of great ideas in here. And it is quite possible that this could be a really great improvement to the game as a whole.

One thing that would probably help a lot, considering so many people have already mentioned the issues with searching for a certain enhancement, is simply adding a text box somewhere in the UI so someone could find that specific enhancement could help people save a lot of time. Maybe this tree idea will also alleviate said issue, but the addition of one in the auction house was a great improvement. In fact I think I started using the AH more since that was added.

Good luck Madfloyd, Varguille, and anyone and everyone else over at Turbine working on this. I hope we can expect great things

[Hakushi]

I agree the UI for the enhancements needs to be upgraded. Some classes have so much to scroll that it becomes a complete mess. One thing that has to come with it is a complete review of a lot of APs costs. I'll take an example, but there's many more: Halfling Thrown Weapon Damage, the costs are 2/4/6 for only +1/+1/+1 damage. That's a huge amount of Action Points for what we get.

Another thing is some prereqs for some PrEs. Why there's always the need for some completely useless and wasted APS to qualify for a PrE. More ways to qualify would go a long way and that would prevent the: All characters of that specific PrEs all look exactly the same. Some are so tight on their Feat and PrE rerquirements that all characters with those builds are almost exactly the same.

Anyone would would try to convince me that the 12 APs you you need to spend to qualify for Kensai 1-3 arn't useless or wasted in a large portion. They would only be slightly useful very situationnaly if useful at all. Again, anyone would would try to convince me the 6 points you have to spend in Inspire Bravery to qualify for Warchanter arn't wasted?

That's the kind of things that needs to be reviewed.


Can we do away with the ap spent requirement of enhancements? The level requirement should be enough to limit things as far as acquiring them at a certain time. All the ap spent does is create some rare situations where points must be spent on things that people just don't want or need just to hit a certain ap spent requirement.

I definitely agree with LeLoric here. The PrEs and the prereqs solved a part of this problem, but there's room for improvement.

-Edit- I forgot to add this part: Also there's some people who have enhancements that gor nergef/changed over time but they decided to keep the old version. Most popular example is Crit Rage barbarians, also some PrEs got nerfed with time with added prereqs like as an example the rogue thief-acrobat. If the people with these builds currently reset their APs, they currently: Arn't able to get the same things, or have to spend more to get the same thing.

[fco-karatekid]

...SNIP...

OK, while the most distinguished Arcane Archer advocate we have in the forums is theoretically correct; I have to protest that although Arcane Archer is theoretically "complete", by no means do I think the devs should interpret that as "done".

It needs a review and augment (to quote MF) of its damage potential of ~10% to (no more than) 15%. That would keep it lower than Melee, but not have it be the middling contributor to DPS (when off manyshot) it is now.

The change (in Oct, I think) to Improved Precise Shot was a good change - inched us up a bit - but just a smidge more is still needed.

[nibel]

The change (in Oct, I think) to Point Blank Shot was a good change - inched us up a bit - but just a smidge more is still needed.

Fixed.

[Angelus_dead]

It needs a review and augment (to quote MF) of its damage potential of ~10% to (no more than) 15%. That would keep it lower than Melee, but not have it be the middling contributor to DPS (when off manyshot) it is now.
Arcane Archer is probably already way too much damage.

Bow using characters need more DPS, but it should come from making bows more damaging, not buffing specific prestige specialties.

[Aelonwy]

First let me start by saying the changes to Stalwart Defender, and Defender of Siberys were one of the highlights of the game in 2011 for me. Thank you.

Some enhancement changes that IMHO have been necessary for some time:

1. Change to Halfling racial Cunning/Guile lines cost (currently 20AP) to be more fair/in balance with Half-elf rogue dilettante (6AP).

2. Change to Ranger Tempest so that a shield wand does not overshadow the benefit of a Prestige line. (This is just plain silly.) Rangers could also benefit from a short 2 tier class toughness line.

3. I don’t even know where to begin on Paladin enhancement costs but they definitely need to be tweaked a little. Divine Light, Divine Might, and Divine Sacrifice should all be looked at closely in terms of cost and benefit. Most paladins can only afford to take one of the above lines (with everything else that’s necessary to spend APs on as a pally) and for the majority of builds they’re actually completely ignored because the benefits just don’t measure up to the cost.

4. I would appreciate a rebalance of the Cleric/Favored Soul Spell Enhancement lines as was done to the Wizard/Sorcerers. It would be nice if there was a short maybe only 2-tier Spell Enhancement line to benefit blade barrier, destruction, implosion, etc. Whatever changes you make to Divine Light and Divine Might for pallys make sure they carry over to cleric. Please, please, please look into giving Clerics their domains.

5. All spell point lines need changed the cost-benefit ratio is ridiculous. Personally, I never take more than the first one or two, if that, because at endgame an extra 80-110 spell points doesn’t amount to much for a 10AP cost. Only seems to be truly worth it for Sorcs/Favored Souls at 150. I suggest if you wish to stick with the 1-2-3-4 cost you change the amounts to 25-35-50-70 for a total of 180 spell points. Essentially 1-25, 2-35 (10 better), 3-50 (15 better), 4-70 (20 better)… and at no time is the player receiving the same benefit as the initial investment 1AP for 25 spell points. This would work out better for the AP cost. Sorcs/FvS could have theirs go up to 210 at a full 10AP cost, say as 30-45-60-75.

6. Finally, it would be a great benefit to the players, and a selling point for drow if you changed their Racial Stat Enhancement to reflect their racial bonuses such that each player could decide to add +2 cha, +2 int, OR +2 dex via enhancements but whichever line they initially add to would imediately lockout the other two. This would work much the same as the human adaptability enhancements except that it would affix the choice to one particular stat. This would I believe greatly increase the versatality of the race. I have seen the argument that the reason they have access only to dex racial enhancement is because they are still elves but if that were the case then I would argue they should have access to AA prestige line as well. You can’t have it one way without the other.

Thank you for reading and considering this, and for opening up this topic.

[Vazok1]

I have a few suggestions of my own and a few that I liked that have been posted earlier by others

1. make it so you can type in your class combo in a box at the top of the page and filter enhancements accordingly ie, 12xx/6xx/2xx or 18/2 classes and it would remove all those you dont qualify for level wise from the ''show unavailable'' option

2. Also the Elemental Resist lines could use some attention, maybe changing it to a % so for each one you get 2% resist.

3. I'd personally like an option that when you re-set your enhancements the game would memorise what you had previously and display that in bold or with a greyed out background. with an optional filter to turn it on/off of course :)

4. make it so you can hover over an enhancement and see how much ap it will take to get to that point in the 'tree' from the start of said 'tree' and from where your currently up to at the point of hover. also which you need to take temporarily highlighted would be nice but i don't want to ask TOO much of you :)

Also these ideas i thought were very good points

Also keep in mind that the values have changed a lot since the level cap was 12. The benefits of Energy of the Scholar for example are a bit ridiculous now (+20/30 sp when wizards usually have around 2,000 sp is 1%).
Maybe swap this to a % of total, maybe 2%, 2%, 2% and 2% per tier with appropriated costs of course, or 4/1/1/1.


It would be great if some imaginative enhancements were introduced, like a way for rogues to reduce fortification, or to eliminate epic mobs immunity to attribute damage, etc. You could play with enhancements to allow some character to bypass some immunities.
maybe put the immunity thing on void strike? i guess removing immunities on attack in most part would be a big change as those are coded to not be removed i guess. so we cant fod suulo, but the void strike is coded to bypass immunity. just an idea, didn't really think this one through although i do like an idea of having the void strike do a different thing depending on which stance your in. for example, water reduces fort, earth removes immunities etc etc. i dont know if this would be better than the original method. again just an idea :)



p.s. halfling sneak attack is 20 AP and half-elf sneak attack is 6?!
good point, what's with that?

and remember to give yourselves time for changes to be made on player feedback :) most of the time by the time its on lamania its carved in stone unless we practically riot. more time needed.

Either way i hope this leads to new PrE's im very very much looking forward to it. however i have a small feeling my shiny new fun 12/6/2 monk is gonna end up getting the sore end of the deal here lol.

[BananaHat]

I've got a bad feeling about this.

Are we going to see some interesting multiclass builds being nerfed?
Are we going to see balancing for PvP?
Are we going to see a reduction in the versatility that builds are capable of?
Are we going to see a reduction in active combat?

The big thing that worries me is that I suspect that all of the changes that I wouldn't want the average punter might actually pay money for. However, revenue now does not equal a quality game. What are the priorities? Make money now? Quality game?

Oh, and what's the time frame for this?


I hope this game NEVER sees a "balance" for PvP reasons. Seriously. Making spells work differently in PvP areas, sure, whatever, who cares?

DDO has never been a PvP game and I think that is really in keeping with the spirit of DnD.


On the enhancement note, I think more options is a good thing. I hope divines get their healing/negative and alignment/light lines split, I hate paying for stuff I never use. Make it like the arcane lines.

A tree system sounds like a good step forward to just make the UI easier to deal with. Pick enhancement, scroll scroll scroll scroll, pick next enhancement, scroll scroll where is it *grumble* scroll scroll.... you get the idea...

It seems like the devs have possibly maybe finally heard the community's cries for finishing the prestige lines (or at least setting a higher priority on them). I've said it before and I'll say it again, people define their characters by their prestige lines. What are you? A spellsinger, warchanter, or virtuoso? We know you are a bard. We want to know what else you do besides singing and other buffs. Kensai or SD? Light or dark monk? AA or tempest?

Adding in and finishing the prestige lines really let's you know the true balance of the game. If you are constantly trickling them in, you have a constantly fluctuating target. Frenzied Berserker adds something like ~26% more damage for a barbarian just from the better crit multipliers, that is crazy! Factor in the other parts of the frenzy and that is quite a swing in potential DPS. (Greataxe: 19+4 equivalent hits base out of 20 swings, +6 equivalent hits from extra crit modifiers, 29/23 = ~26%) Look at the longevity the radiant servant can give to clerics, spellsinger for anyone with a blue bar, debuffing with an AoV, self-healing with a palemaster, etc etc etc.

Trying to balance the game before and after large shifts in capability seems like a poor way to do things. Set a higher priority for the prestige lines this year. Try to have at least 2 complete lines for all classes and add in the racial lines. More prestige lines means more builds for people to play, this means they stick around longer and have more fun with the game.

[Chai]

I haven't looked at a specific list, but those are there for a reason. Without them, it would be simple to take all of the enhancements you normally take at endgame without taking the low level ones first. While I agree that they should be lowered (any light monk who has to take Improved Concentratjon will probably agree), I don't think they should be done away with entirely.

Not if they leave the class level requirement in and take the AP spent requirement out.

[Barazon]

With all the bugs that Update 12 and its patches introduced, some of which are still around two months later, you want to take on something like this that is probably going to leave several classes without enhancements at all? When is the planned roll-out? I'd prefer never, but hopefully like a year from now after you have time to test it and take the time to LISTEN to the feedback and bug reports and FIX the bugs before release, instead of blindly meeting an arbitrary release date.

What are you going to do for the people who have spent 4+ years using enhancements that no longer exist, that have invested YEARS into building their toons and farming gear based around those enhancements? Or are you doing a little dance of joy that you're eliminating them without making it look like you're specifically targetting those people?

When you say "think augmentation here, not nerfs", all I see coming our way is nerfs that you're going to try to spindoctor as being cool and somehow advantageous.

[FranOhmsford]

Would it be possible to get a change to the Feat UI please?

Basically I'm talking about the fact that the only way to find out exactly which feats you've taken atm is to talk to Fred.

Can we get a checkbox to show only feats actually taken - filtering out all the free ones please.

As for enhancements: If you're changing them then please remember to sort out Drow stat enhancements - Int and Cha need to be available as well as Dex - Taking one would lock out the other two.

[Psiandron]

I think this could be a great idea, provided it's well done.

The current UI is certainly lacking and the prospect of getting the PRE's finished makes this seem an attractive piece of work.

Hey MF, you think you could break out the EtchaSketch and give us a look at what you have in mind?

While I don't think it was incumbant in MF's original statement, I'll join the call that this new system not be in any way locking. I want to be able to customize my toons as I desire. To that end, I have always thought that giving the players options on exactly what the PRE does is a good idea. For example, SLAs: instead of telling the player that he can take this one spell as an SLA, give him an option of 3-5 spells to choose from.

You mentioned possible cost adjustment, I'd really like to see that as some of the enhancements are completely out of whack in terms of their cost to relative benefit. Melees could use a little love these days and if you're going to adjust the enhancements and add/finish PREs now's a good time to start.

If you're going to make us all redo our enhancements, make sure that we are given a lot of notice before this happens. This will take some planning our part, so please keep that in mind. If this ends up being a major revamp and not just a UI reformatting, how about throwing in free feat respecing too? It'd kind of suck to have to rebuild higher level toons enhancements and not be able to take advantage of the new system because all or most of one's feats have already been spent.

TESTING!!!
This is, as you can see, a big deal to people. And if this ends up affecting how the enhancements behave in the game and not just how we access them at trainers, it's going to be a much bigger deal. Get it right! Don't 'finish' this and then plop it out on Llamaland for a 2 week preview and then shunt it to live only to find out that it's completely borked and everyone is ragequitting and then rageposting about it. Test early and often. Test on us players and test on people who have never even heard of the game. Make sure that it functions well and is understandable and doesn't explode under heavy load conditions.

That's all for now. Thanks and best of to you.

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j339/Psiandron/1MF.gif

[CanuckWisdom]

Yea,


Paladin HotD: Requires: Paladin Extra Turning III, Paladin Improved Turning III, Paladin Hunter of the Dead II, and one of Bladesworn Transformation, Silver Flame Exorcism, Undying Call, Unyielding Sovereignty, Vulkoor's Avatar

Paladin KotC: Requires:... Paladin Knight of the Chalice II, and one of Bladesworn Transformation, Silver Flame Exorcism, Undying Call, Unyielding Sovereignty, Vulkoor's Avatar

I'm not comparing to DoS because there is at least one feat required, so its harder to compare.

The more I think about it, the more I think that HotD 3 is a strong PrE, but I dont think its so amazing as to warrant the difference in AP costs on what I consider an already AP 'starved' class.

I am not interested in the faith lines because of how much they cost, but thats an issue for both of the above PrE's

[somenewnoob]

I hope the melees will be getting some love!

:D

[waterboytkd]

Here's some of my thoughts on enhancements in general:

1) AP costs are out of whack. Some are done excellently, some are...well, archaic, holdovers from darker times in this game. For example. The new Sorc/Wiz spell enhancement lines those classes picked up in U9 = cool. I like that it's 1 AP per tier always, and the increase is linear. On the flip side, Halfling Cunning/Guile = uncool. Again, linear increase, but increasing cost. It's hard to justify spending on tier 4 when it's the same benefit as tier 1, but costs 4 times as much. Also, front loading enhancement lines with that same increasing cost scheme seems bonkers. For example, Warforged Healer's Friend. For 2 AP, my wf gets +15% healing. For 4 more AP, that bonus goes up by a whopping 5%, then 5% again for 6 more AP. That's 10 AP for 10%...5 times the amount of AP for less than the original boost!

My general thought here is that I'd like to see enhancement lines with linear boosts have linear AP costs (+X = Y AP at tier 1, another +X = Y more AP at tier 2, for a total of +2X = 2Y AP). If a line had non-linear benefits, then non-linear costs could be okay. But it seems crazy that +10 hp costs 1 AP, but +40 hp costs 10 AP.

Also, PrE costs. It seems strange to me to stack the majority of AP cost on Tier 1. That tends to be the weakest tier. Maybe the intent was to discourage multiclassing with multiple PrEs, but that seems backwards to me. As has been said, one of the strengths of this game is it's true customization with characters. You build a fighter, that doesn't mean you're like other fighters, or even a fighter at heart. Again, since PrEs tend to have linear benefits, I'd like to see the AP costs for them made linear (2 AP per tier, for example).

2)Prereqs for enhancements: as I mentioned in my first post in this thread, some classes need some serious work in their early enhancements. Monk is the worst offender I'm aware of. Part of this problem is AP spent prereqs. The reason I see this as a problem is that it forces players to take garbage enhancements they don't want just to meet prerequisites. That seems bad for two reasons: first, making players do something they don't want to do is a negative play experience (and no matter how small, NPEs do build up and cause players to quit games); second, WHY ARE THERE GARBAGE ENHANCEMENTS? All enhancement choices should be desirable for at least one very common build of that class, but optimally, all enhancements available to a class should be desirable by all builds of that class. That way, players are making real choices about what they have. In my opinion, Barbarian is an offender here (not a huge Barb player, so feel free to disagree with me). It seems like there are obvious choices for a correct way to spend your AP, and anything else is just silly. That, though, might be due to only 1 PrE.

I like the suggestions of getting rid of AP spent prereqs. Keep level prereqs, but ditch the AP spent prereqs. They only serve to restrict characters on what they want to take. Also, consider that if an enhancement never sees play, that it's probably junk and not worth keeping around. Which brings me to:


Some enhancements may perish in the name progress. We're definitely not far enough along to get into that kind of specifics yet. Now is a good time to be giving us general input, though.

General input? Get rid of useless enhancements. It's hard to say what these are (some players might like Imp Swim, or Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost). Also, some currently awful enhancements could be made better just by changing some game mechanics. For example, action boosts not Damage boost or Haste boost could be made decent if Action Boosts all had separate cooldown timers (they could still share charges, then again, maybe not--why not reward players for taking multiple action boosts?). Same with monk Philosophy trees, especially the dark tree: static charge and ilk could be usable if they had separate cooldown timers, especially cooldowns independent of Touch of Death.

This also comes back to useless enhancements and prereqs. Why make junk enhancements prereqs? Why make players spend AP on stuff they don't want or need? Biggest offender in my mind: warforged divines who worship the Lord of Blades. They have to take Bladesworn Transformation just to get their PrEs. Most never even put it on their hotbar. It's sooooooooo bad.

Make prereqs something useful, change enhancements to make them useful, or make mechanics changes to make them useful. Or, as has been suggested, have different sets of prereqs for high end enhancements (you must have x1, x2, and x3, OR y1, y2, and y3).

I'm all for streamlining the UI for enhancements, but I'd be much more fired-up for it if there was a vast 'enhancement pass' that accompanied it that streamline enhancements all-together. They do need a lot of work, and as long as you're messing with em at all, might as well go the whole nine yards and give em the face lift they need and deserve.

EDIT: Oh, one more thing. I'd love to see each class get a section of enhancements that would focus on something besides whatever the class focuses on (dps, heals, etc.), to help that class expand its usefulness, if so desired. For example, melees could get some kind of enhancement line that could make them better at self-healing, so in non-raids, they wouldn't NEED a divine to babysit them, and maybe another enhancement line to give them more CC options to melees. Then, casters could get enhancement lines to make them better at melee (an attack bonus boost? maybe a damage boost?) so less-than-uber casters could have a legitimate fallback if they ran out of sp. Divines wouldn't need much here (clerics would need more than FvS), but more melee boosts would be decent. Also, enhancement lines like that would be a boon to multiclassers, too.

[Carpone]

1. Change to Halfling racial Cunning/Guile lines cost (currently 20AP) to be more fair/in balance with Half-elf rogue dilettante (6AP).

2. Change to Ranger Tempest so that a shield wand does not overshadow the benefit of a Prestige line. (This is just plain silly.) Rangers could also benefit from a short 2 tier class toughness line.

3. I don’t even know where to begin on Paladin enhancement costs but they definitely need to be tweaked a little. Divine Light, Divine Might, and Divine Sacrifice should all be looked at closely in terms of cost and benefit. Most paladins can only afford to take one of the above lines (with everything else that’s necessary to spend APs on as a pally) and for the majority of builds they’re actually completely ignored because the benefits just don’t measure up to the cost.
Agreed!


4. I would appreciate a rebalance of the Cleric/Favored Soul Spell Enhancement lines as was done to the Wizard/Sorcerers.
While my favored soul certainly benefit from this change, I don't see it happening. Dividing up the damage lines into light, good, chaos, law would just show how lacking the offensive divine spell selection is in DDO. Divine casters would go 7/6/6 in light and ignore the others. If Angel of Vengeance III or Exorcist of the Silver Flame are ever released (not holding my breath after years of waiting), then we might see some divine spell additions accompany them.

[Silverleafeon]

What about totally separating feats requirements from enhancements (including prestigue classes)?

This would give a lot more flexablity in builds.

For something that might seem totally necessary to a class (such as empowered healing for a cleric), perhaps offer it purchasable by action points or if you take the feat, you save action points?

How many Dark Monks really really want Dodge?

[squirrl811]

It seems to me that the biggest problem with the current Enhancement UI is in regards to making sure you get the right selections as prerequisites for PRE's. Although not optimal, I've never really minded the current UI for regular enhancement choices, but when I want something with complex prerequisites I end up tabbing between the game and other screens to make sure I make the right selections. Perhaps the available PRE's could be in another section of the Enhancement UI with a feature to easily reference, suggest, or auto-select the prerequisites for them.

I also like the idea of a tree structure, but it seems there is some backlash on here towards it based on experiences with other games. If the tree structure locks you into certain paths, I wouldn't be in support of it as it removes freedom to make your character the way you want to. If the tree structure is more along the lines of just displaying everything in a more logical order and I can still select whatever I want (assuming I meet the requirements), then that is something I'd like to see.

Last, new enhancement choices (and especially PRE's) as a whole would be a great way to add variety and life to the game. It would be a chance to experiment with new ideas and make characters we've dreamed of but could never quite make work.

[Hendrik]

LOVE the idea of a new Enhancement UI!!!

Like many others, I really want to see how it looks!

But one thing;

Make the UI unique to DDO! Please for all that is DDO, do not just make it a copy of Wow-like trait tree's.

[fco-karatekid]

Fixed.

DOH! What he/she said!

[fco-karatekid]

Arcane Archer is probably already way too much damage.

Bow using characters need more DPS, but it should come from making bows more damaging, not buffing specific prestige specialties.

I'd be ok with that as well - just hadn't thought of it from the other archers' perspectives, since I don't have an arti and haven't used bows with any of the other classes.

[Pwesiela]

OK, while the most distinguished Arcane Archer advocate we have in the forums is theoretically correct; I have to protest that although Arcane Archer is theoretically "complete", by no means do I think the devs should interpret that as "done".

It needs a review and augment (to quote MF) of its damage potential of ~10% to (no more than) 15%. That would keep it lower than Melee, but not have it be the middling contributor to DPS (when off manyshot) it is now.

The change (in Oct, I think) to Improved Precise Shot was a good change - inched us up a bit - but just a smidge more is still needed.

I've actually PM'd Eladrin about the AA PrE. Still trying to make him see my way. ;)

But I don't think this is the thread to attempt to derail about ranged damage. I think we'll be getting a whole new thread on that at some point.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Can't wait. It sounds awesome and I fully agree with the opinion that it is kinda clunky and horrible to use, UI wise. The balance changes and new enhancements sounds amazing as well.

[Failedlegend]

The change (in Oct, I think) to Improved Precise Shot was a good change - inched us up a bit - but just a smidge more is still needed.



I think you mean Point Blank Shot.

Note that eladrin WAS talking about a change to IPS to give it a single target mode...actual bonus unspecified

[Natean]

This is how I see it being done. With it being a Tree and all...

Monk Tree. Also some additional ideas like a search bar, Race/Class tree to the side. Obviously you mouse over for details.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d75/nobodynat/monktree.jpg

[MadFloyd]

OK, read up to here.

First of all, just want to say thanks for all the participation and the valuable well articulated feedback.

I appreciate the concerns. There's a couple posts that I will respond to separately, but in general I want to say:

- I will share a mockup of the new UI.

- I am happy to reveal details of various enhancement lines as they become available - and have you guys scrutinize them.

- I need to look into the bowbarian builds.

- Lamannia has already been trending towards earlier builds - ugliness and all; effectively it's becoming a test server, not a preview server. If everything goes as planned you get a chance to play & comment before it's too late to change.

- I consider myself chief of the nerf police. Not going to happen casually on my watch. In cases where it's truly warranted, it will be explained.

- Melee classes need love in general. Changes to enhancements will be made with this in mind.

- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER.

- Yes, many costs (and enhancements themselves) are not as useful as they once were when the level cap was much lower. All this is being looked at.

- Getting all PrE's finished is paramount to us. In an ideal world, they will all be finished when we release the enhancement Re-do.

- The UI is comprised of multiple trees (not just one) based on PrEs and race. You can spend points in multiple trees if you like.

- Your ideas/thoughts on which enhancements are currently of little value as well as suggestions for improvements or new enhancement lines are welcome and encouraged (although I should probably start a new thread for that so they aren't buried!)

- To repeat the goals: improve comprehension, re-balance AP costs, improve or jettison weak enhancements, improve weak classes, finish PrE's.

- All this is subject to change - whether it be due to player feedback, production considerations, or whatever.

Thanks again for keeping the thread productive.
MF

[Thrudh]

change is good, unless those changes suck.

New signature :)

[Xenostrata]

Not if they leave the class level requirement in and take the AP spent requirement out.

Not really. You could level up a level 20 sorc, buy the capstone, and max out two chains of damages, get a PrE with it's prereqs, etc. - the AP spent requirement is to make sure you can't just max out one given skill without having others as well.

[Failedlegend]

This is how I see it being done. With it being a Tree and all...

Monk Tree. Also some additional ideas like a search bar, Race/Class tree to the side. Obviously you mouse over for details.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d75/nobodynat/monktree.jpg

Personally I'd prefer top to bottom but otherwise that seems like something I'd go for ESPECIALLY the breaking up of the Class and race into their own sections (assuming multiple classes = even more sections) with several subsections within.

[MissMoogle]

From my personal experience, I see three things where a revamp would help to balance the classes/races.


Halfling Cunning/Guile vs. Half-Elf Rogue Dilly. I know it's not the same, but the bonuses are similar. Yet the requirements for the Halfling are much steeper.
Paladins. The APs on a pally are generally horribly tight, and this does not help the paladins being no match for other DPS classes, such as Barb, Fighter, Monk, or even Ranger. Paladins as DPS need a boost, and relaxed AP costs can help there.
Drow. Drow are generally nice already, but their bonuses pale in comparison to other races. The racial Dex doesn't help for most builds at all. My suggestion would be a mechanic similar to the human adaptability, but only with Dex, Cha and Int. This way, Drow would get an edge over humans, putting them a potential +2 ahead of humans.


i wondered why the halfling line was so exspensive, and from a race of healer house why dont they get healing AP choices like healing amp? though the +int and +cha for drop maybe a bit OP i can understand with drow Arcane, theres very little gap if any between a fully geared human DC vs full geared drow DC..



I've got a bad feeling about this.

Are we going to see some interesting multiclass builds being nerfed?
Are we going to see balancing for PvP?
Are we going to see a reduction in the versatility that builds are capable of?
Are we going to see a reduction in active combat?

The big thing that worries me is that I suspect that all of the changes that I wouldn't want the average punter might actually pay money for. However, revenue now does not equal a quality game. What are the priorities? Make money now? Quality game?

Oh, and what's the time frame for this?

^ agreed I'm more scared then excited, though looking forward to seeing if versatility > fascist regime of Tree roots. Im pullin for you devs impress us!

[Failedlegend]

OK, read up to here.

First of all, just want to say thanks for all the participation and the valuable well articulated feedback.

I appreciate the concerns. There's a couple posts that I will respond to separately, but in general I want to say:

- I will share a mockup of the new UI. Visual Aids FTW!!

- I am happy to reveal details of various enhancement lines as they become available - and have you guys scrutinize them.

- I need to look into the bowbarian builds.

- Lamannia has already been trending towards earlier builds - ugliness and all; effectively it's becoming a test server, not a preview server. If everything goes as planned you get a chance to play & comment before it's too late to change.
I approve of this just like when I make character builds and post them on the forums theres always at least one or two things that I total missed that someone points out which could have completely ruined the build/experience

- I consider myself chief of the nerf police. Not going to happen casually on my watch. In cases where it's truly warranted, it will be explained. Armed and ready
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KI3IRH6RxSs/TESgLJ-YAiI/AAAAAAAABOk/dRn8m7aA8QU/s1600/nerf-n-strike-vulcan.jpg


- Melee classes need love in general. Changes to enhancements will be made with this in mind. Maybe I'll actually enjoy playing a melee one day :D

- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER. Any chance of multi-class PrEs??

- Yes, many costs (and enhancements themselves) are not as useful as they once were when the level cap was much lower. All this is being looked at.

- Getting all PrE's finished is paramount to us. In an ideal world, they will all be finished when we release the enhancement Re-do. Note: He said it's possible not IT WILL BE DONE

- The UI is comprised of multiple trees (not just one) based on PrEs and race. You can spend points in multiple trees if you like.

- Your ideas/thoughts on which enhancements are currently of little value as well as suggestions for improvements or new enhancement lines are welcome and encouraged (although I should probably start a new thread for that so they aren't buried!)

- To repeat the goals: improve comprehension, re-balance AP costs, improve or jettison weak enhancements, improve weak classes, finish PrE's.

- All this is subject to change - whether it be due to player feedback, production considerations, or whatever.

Thanks again for keeping the thread productive.
MF

Notes in red

[Psiandron]

Giant wall of candy

Well first off...
<looks at giant wall of candy>
Really...
<looks again>
I need to go sit down.

[CaptainSpacePony]

-I agree that enhancements and the EUI need an overhaul.
-I support all of MF’s stated objectives.
-I also ask that you expand the “deity” options. There are 3 race restricted options and 2 open options. Although I am not familiar with Ebberon lore, it seems to me as if each race could use its own, including a human-only option.
-I recommend NOT completing prestige enhancements all at once. There is a lot of work to do here, and rushing it will lead to unfun imbalances. The old stated goal of 1 pre/update was great. Also, new prestige stuff is a sales driver, I’m sure.

[nivarch]

Just to say that this seem awesome.
I love change, and this seem to be a change that may bring a lot of new possible builds.
It will also fix a messy UI.

Double thumbs up on the project. Just don't rush it!

[Memnir]

feel free to share your thoughts and concerns.
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http://i.imgur.com/OApl1.jpg
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Just one or two more...




But really - I am honestly terrified that this will only make things worse instead of better. Even more so since, as you said, it's not broken. This screams to me of Dev Hubris, and that has never worked in favor of the player. I still recall the Turbine Dev who took the time to code out "sit and spin" at shrines simply because he didn't like it. Made him cringe, as it were. This was something that players liked, harmed nothing, and a lot of people still want it put back... So, I have a really dim view of change for change's sake. Let alone change just because a Turbine Dev dislikes something.


I foresee this this as taking away, or at the very least diminishing, one of the best selling points of this game - player preferential customization of their character. I'm willing to bet the farm that this will in some way limit that, or curtail it in unforeseen/unintended ways.


And as I elude to in the pic above... DDO can't afford too many more nails in the coffin, at least as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, I am on a break from logging in - and I see little point or purpose to posting on these forums much anymore - but I had a glimmer of hope for 2012 luring me back.

This just makes me feel like my choices were justified, and that decisions like this one will only reinforce my feelings that my DDO days are done.

[BattleCircle]

I would do better with a visualization of the new UI. You guys may not have it ready, or have a mock up available though. Doesn't sound outrageous as you presented it.

I think people that still have the "Crit Rage" enhancement line are going to set fire to the forums when they find out about this. Good luck with that Madfloyd. :)

Crit Rage in my mind was the first prestige enhancement and never should have been done away with. It is viable and with the last nerf to insta-kills it is in no way over powered.

[Failedlegend]

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http://i.imgur.com/OApl1.jpg
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Just one or two more...




But really - I am honestly terrified that this will only make things worse instead of better. Even more so since, as you said, it's not broken. This screams to me of Dev Hubris, and that has never worked in favor of the player. I still recall the Turbine Dev who took the time to code out "sit and spin" at shrines simply because he didn't like it. Made him cringe, as it were. This was something that players liked, harmed nothing, and a lot of people still want it put back... So, I have a really dim view of change for change's sake. Let alone change just because a Turbine Dev dislikes something.


I foresee this this as taking away, or at the very least diminishing, one of the best selling points of this game - player preferential customization of their character. I'm willing to bet the farm that this will in some way limit that, or curtail it in a major way.


And as I elude to in the pic above... DDO can't afford too many more nails in the coffin, at least as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, I am on a break from logging in - and I see little point or purpose to posting on these forums much anymore - but I had a glimmer of hope for 2012 luring me back.

This just makes me feel like my choices were justified, and that decisions like this one will only reinforce my feelings that my DDO days are done.

Not only directed at you Memnir

ou guys know the enhancements already use a tree system eh? It's shown quite well by Natean..from what I understand their not changing how taking enhancemnts works just giving a more user friendly UI and adding some more/repairing old less used & broken enhancements.

[Ganolyn]

Just one or two more...




But really - I am honestly terrified that this will only make things worse instead of better. Even more so since, as you said, it's not broken. This screams to me of Dev Hubris, and that has never worked in favor of the player. I still recall the Turbine Dev who took the time to code out "sit and spin" at shrines simply because he didn't like it. Made him cringe, as it were. This was something that players liked, harmed nothing, and a lot of people still want it put back... So, I have a really dim view of change for change's sake. Let alone change just because a Turbine Dev dislikes something.


I foresee this this as taking away, or at the very least diminishing, one of the best selling points of this game - player preferential customization of their character. I'm willing to bet the farm that this will in some way limit that, or curtail it in a major way.


And as I elude to in the pic above... DDO can't afford too many more nails in the coffin, at least as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, I am on a break from logging in - and I see little point or purpose to posting on these forums much anymore - but I had a glimmer of hope for 2012 luring me back.

This just makes me feel like my choices were justified, and that decisions like this one will only reinforce my feelings that my DDO days are done.


Did you see these bullet points?




- I consider myself chief of the nerf police. Not going to happen casually on my watch. In cases where it's truly warranted, it will be explained.

- Melee classes need love in general. Changes to enhancements will be made with this in mind.

- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER.

- Yes, many costs (and enhancements themselves) are not as useful as they once were when the level cap was much lower. All this is being looked at.


- The UI is comprised of multiple trees (not just one) based on PrEs and race. You can spend points in multiple trees if you like.




I have a wait and see attitude as well, but at least he is saying that we will get previews and input before it goes live, which is something we have been asking for for over a year or more now.

[Memnir]

ou guys know the enhancements already use a tree system eh?Absolutly.

Call my misgivings more of a bankruptcy of faith in the Dev team then anything else. But also, as I mentioned above, when the Devs change something that is working just for the sake of change - the players have almost never benefited from it in this game and with this Dev team. And hearing that they are tinkering with a system that works and works well makes me cringe.

[red_cardinal]

- I need to look into the bowbarian builds.



Bow damage is an issue because firing rate is slow. And now compared to repeaters it's pathetic.
Increase bow firing rate for regular user - no ranger/fighter capstone, no fast shot feat, no haste of any kind.



- Lamannia has already been trending towards earlier builds - ugliness and all; effectively it's becoming a test server, not a preview server. If everything goes as planned you get a chance to play & comment before it's too late to change.


This is perhaps the best feature available. Feedback received from U9 release for Sorcerer prestiges was great and that's why that prestige turned out nice.

Lammania should have the following:
- NPC to add XP to a new character -> multiclass anything right away,
- NPC to give out new loot (finished and crafted, not just materials) so weapon/equipment effects can be tested out
- Lord Poincelot - give 2500 TP per character per day so if you release new stuff for store, it can be tested out (like new armor kits).



- I consider myself chief of the nerf police. Not going to happen casually on my watch. In cases where it's truly warranted, it will be explained.


If players get a buff, so do mobs. It's not about nerfing or making things overpowered - it's just to make something valuable and usable.



- Melee classes need love in general. Changes to enhancements will be made with this in mind.


True, but Divine spells also need buffs so Cleric/FVS can have damage increases for Firestorm and similar spells. Those spells must be strong - it's not all about blade barrier, divine punishment and implosion.

Ranger summons also must have CR increased. They could act as artificer pets and get a bar... But, that's asking to much. Perhaps, when Druids come out.



- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER.


I agree, but it wasn't so until now. IF you make it to be your bread and butter then focus on it because it really is important. Cross-class caster level increase is also welcome.



- Yes, many costs (and enhancements themselves) are not as useful as they once were when the level cap was much lower. All this is being looked at.
- Getting all PrE's finished is paramount to us. In an ideal world, they will all be finished when we release the enhancement Re-do.


Nobody is expecting an ideal world.



- Your ideas/thoughts on which enhancements are currently of little value as well as suggestions for improvements or new enhancement lines are welcome and encouraged (although I should probably start a new thread for that so they aren't buried!)


Indeed, that's welcome.

[voodoogroves]

Bow damage is an issue because firing rate is slow. And now compared to repeaters it's pathetic.
Increase bow firing rate for regular user - no ranger/fighter capstone, no fast shot feat, no haste of any kind.


Nah, just increase the benefit to Rapid Shot and possibly Rapid Reload.

[Carpone]

- Getting all PrE's finished is paramount to us. In an ideal world, they will all be finished when we release the enhancement Re-do.
Best DDO development news I ever read. Really looking forward to this!

[Scraap]

- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER.


So does that mean we may see things like skill and wand mastery using class totals, rather than specified class levels?
I ask about wand mastery specifically, since there's 2 sets of progressions at present in terms of percentile bump.

[le_goat]

I would love a visual tree to plan out enhancements

But

I would not like to be the dev in charge of planning this !

Beer pinata for whoever does it right!

[Missing_Minds]

I'm going to wait to see the new Tree system before I give out mroe feedback.

And the only reason to keep crit rage is because of bowbarians really.

Heck, even I gave up crit rage. Mostly because I GOT SICK OF WAITING ON THE F'N PRE'S TO GET FINISHED.

[AZgreentea]

I like the idea of the tree's. Its much simpler than scrolling through a list. Of course, the idea that I will have to rethink and redo not only my enhancements, but possibly my skills and feats because of changes and updates is a little scary. It would be like the last two years of development and changes to classes happening overnight, thus making all characters obsolete simultaneously.... Dooooom! :p

As a side note, while you are poking at the enhancements panel, can you take a look at the Adventures tab in the Adventures journal (the one where you can view what quests you have completed)? It was a little out of date before, but with the new bravery bonus, it could really use some love. I thought the suggestion on a few threads that we have a method to view how many times and on what difficulty we have completed a quest would be extremely useful. I know that data has to live someplace, because its tracked for xp purposes when you enter a quest.

[Kilnedric]

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI.

<snip>

Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new.

So, what scares me here is combining 2 very different concerns into one "task". This seems a bad idea to me.

I agree 100% the UI sucks. It sucks so bad it's actually a very large learning curve to people I know coming from other MMOs, without a D&D background. Changing the UI is a GREAT idea! Changing it to a tree view is a GREAT idea.

Changing the *content* of the enhancements is a questionable idea. Changing it to work more like other MMOs is NOT, IMO, a good idea. Please don't lock people into only certain builds because of the "deep tree" talent concept. The relatively "flat trees" we have now are great. So, please be careful doing this. But more importantly, don't tie this to the UI change. They are two different things! :)

Thanks for all the work and for posting.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

There are some who's builds will be forever lost. For example, for those old school barbarians that never switched out Critical Rage (before PrEs were introduced), they will lose their builds forever. On the flip side, Turbine should have never allowed barbarians to keep it in the first place. They should have shut down CR entirely. There's not very many crit rage barbs left, but the ones who want to still hold onto CR will be very, very upset.

As for "Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new" this is the straw thats going to stir the drink. This is certainly treacherous waters for Turbine to be tinkering in. However I see it as Turbines biggest opportunity this year to make the largest number of people happy.

In order for Turbine to get the biggest positive bang for their buck is to promote this, very clearly, very vividly. Precisely, they need to sell this as a necessity in order to finally complete the PrEs. They can and should say they are re-balancing certain enhancements to more closely resemble D&D and even borrowed some great ideas from the DDO community itself (the ddo forums). What a moral boost if they worded it this way and actually followed through, heh?

The enhancements obviously need to be altered in order to fit in the remainder of the PrEs, as many of them were made long before the PrEs were designed. People will be crying no doubt. However, if at level 18, the final PrEs are powerful enough, it will satisfy the great majority.

They really need something BIG to offset some lousy decisions they've made in 2011... as well as the game's obvious shelf-life factor. In order for the 6 year old DDO to survive for the next 3-4 years, it will need to reinvent itself several more times. The question is can they do this without ticking off too many (more) folks in the process?

I think Big T has done a great job with skills, enhancements, and feats, and have somehow managed to translate the great majority of them well for combat purposes. This is a strength of Turbine. Prestiges on the other hand I think are a mish-moshed taped-on glue stick nailed and screwed clusterfunk.

If they sell and do this right, they will excite many, and **** off some. If they do it wrong, I'm out before those nails & screws start popping!

[Kinerd]

I am of mixed feelings.

-Ambition is a good thing. I would even go so far as to call the proposal an aggressive look at revamping enhancements. Good!
-Aggression that's out of control is worse than timidity. You don't score on 100% of the shots you don't take, but you don't score and lose possession on 100% of the shots you put harmlessly in the goalkeeper's mitts.

This feeling of concern is dramatically exacerbated by DDO's recent penchant to fire and forget content, to implement and abandon. An ambitious but flawed project after six months is just a flawed project. I'm not going to prognosticate about whether DDO can handle a flawed project of this magnitude (doom), that is pointless. I will say that of itself it is not a good idea to go on the tightrope without a net.

If the recent trend of abandoning releases is slated to continue, I would rather the staff leave well enough alone. The enhancement system works. Any massive project is going to have problems. If the recent trend doesn't change, those problems are going to be ignored, no matter how major. That would be very frustrating for everyone who uses the enhancement system.

[Pwesiela]

OK, read up to here.

- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER.

- Getting all PrE's finished is paramount to us. In an ideal world, they will all be finished when we release the enhancement Re-do.

- Your ideas/thoughts on which enhancements are currently of little value as well as suggestions for improvements or new enhancement lines are welcome and encouraged (although I should probably start a new thread for that so they aren't buried!)

- To repeat the goals: improve comprehension, re-balance AP costs, improve or jettison weak enhancements, improve weak classes, finish PrE's.

Thanks again for keeping the thread productive.
MF

I will be happy if, at the time this is released, each class has two full PrE's attached to it, with information as to how the third is planned to work.

That having been said, when you post the thread on PrE feedback, I'll be there.

The above, however, is encouraging.

[moops]

Please add something for Offensive casting clerics who are not nannybots:)
And make it affordable. . .

--besides cheaper heighten/quicken/ maximize
I'd like to see maybe something for Necro and Enchantment DCs.

[dkyle]

The followup is certainly heartening. I'm glad to hear your intentions. But I do worry how the implementation turns out.



Please add something for Offensive casting clerics who are not nannybots:)
And make it affordable. . .

--besides cheaper heighten/quicken/ maximize
I'd like to see maybe something for Necro and Enchantment DCs.

No offensive casting anythings need buffs right now. Well, except maybe offensive casting Rangers. The rest are more than sufficiently overpowered as it is.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

This is the right time to power up bards, rangers, clerics, favored souls, etc... cant wait to see what's in store!

There's certainly an uneasy feeling in my stomach because they are messing with fire here. However, if Turbine has learned the biggest wants in each class' communities, this may be a very much appreciated, very excellent upgrade to the game. I'm cautiously upbeat.

[voodoogroves]

This is the right time to power up bards, rangers, clerics, favored souls, etc... cant wait to see what's in store!


And elves, drow and to a lesser extent dwarves and halflings on the AP front.

[Nuralanya]

I got racial improved balance 4 on my WF wizard to reach the non-failure on titan balance. But I agree, there is few reasons to ever get improved <skill> in most builds. Very few skills really benefit from a +1~4 bonus (Mostly, Intimidate, Balance, and UMD for arties)

This may have been pointed out further down the thread (I've only got to this point so far!), but I can see a use for these enhancements in certain groups such as PD players and others who play by self-imposed gear limits. If your rogue can't get the best Disable gear for level unless they get lucky, for example, then being able to add a few points to the skill via enhancements is very helpful and it can be reset to something else when you do finally get the gear you need.

[Thrudh]

I'd like to see more linear progressions...

I dislike the 1,2,3,4 AP costs... especially when the 4th step gives the same power as the 1st step...

I'd like to see more 1,1,1,1 options... maybe even 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...

Dragonmarks enhancements definitely should be lowered to 1,1,1,1... Dragonmarks are way too weak already... costing 10 AP to get 4 more dragonmarks is way too expensive.

[Nuralanya]

(regarding 'AP spent' requirements)


I haven't looked at a specific list, but those are there for a reason. Without them, it would be simple to take all of the enhancements you normally take at endgame without taking the low level ones first. While I agree that they should be lowered (any light monk who has to take Improved Concentratjon will probably agree), I don't think they should be done away with entirely.

I agree that there should be certain requirements - I wouldn't expect to be able to take Skill Boost IV without first taking I, II and III, for example. What makes the current system difficult is that you know what you want to take, but you can't take it until you've spent say 4 more points - but there's nothing available that you want. So you wind up having to take something that's not very useful to your character, just to meet the requirement for the enhancement you really do want. And there's no option to swap out such individual useless enhancements later. Perhaps that's something that could be added in, maybe at level 20 - the ability to switch certain enhancements that you no longer need/want without resetting the whole lot, so long as the system forbids you from removing required lower tiers or pre-reqs?

[Alaunra2010]

I'm eager for changes both to the UI itself and to fleshing out the enhancements available.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

And elves, drow and to a lesser extent dwarves on the AP front.

Definitely.

Boosting/Reshuffling Dragonmarks might also lead to some really cool new builds. I rarely, and I mean rarely build dragonmarks in for people, and find myself recommending against it almost exclusively. Thats a shame, they can be a great deal of fun and shouldnt be too hard on the design team to figure out how to make them respectful. Right now, far too expensive for what you get.

[fuzzy1guy]

Redcated

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I'd like to see more linear progressions...

I dislike the 1,2,3,4 AP costs... especially when the 4th step gives the same power as the 1st step...

I'd like to see more 1,1,1,1 options... maybe even 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...

Dragonmarks enhancements definitely should be lowered to 1,1,1,1... Dragonmarks are way too weak already... costing 10 AP to get 4 more dragonmarks is way too expensive.

Agreed. Especially if they are adding enhancements, they need to make them cost less across the board so people can keep lots of "their build" and add some of the "cool new bells & whistles" on top. Our builds should feel the same, yet be more powerful because of the "new, improved enhancements/PrEs".

In my opi, more customization = win.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

You have a preview server.

This will be the gold key. I'd prefer to see this update break a record. Id like to see it remain on the Lamma servers for a good loooooong time, and see active communication like never before between the dev and gaming communities.

Im not asking for 100% bug free, but I am hoping for 99.99% bug free. A solid effort here, and tight communication will go a long way.

Communication does seem like its really picking up on Turbines side, and for that I thank you Mad! Now for the meat & potatoes, the execution.

[voodoogroves]

Definitely.

Boosting/Reshuffling Dragonmarks might also lead to some really cool new builds. I rarely, and I mean rarely build dragonmarks in for people, and find myself recommending against it almost exclusively. Thats a shame, they can be a great deal of fun and shouldnt be too hard on the design team to figure out how to make them respectful. Right now, far too expensive for what you get.

I'd love to see the DM heir PRE add in alternate capabilities similar to what is in the Dragonmarked book - maybe merging the Dragonmarked Heir w/ the specific DM PRCs in that book.

[Chette]

The only change I really want to see to the enhancement UI is that if I collapse something, that it should stay collapsed after I select an enhancement, instead of resetting everything to be uncollapsed. I hate having to wade through all the enhancements I don't care about each time I spend a single point.

It would also be nice to have a few more higher lever groups. For example all fighter enhancements under one branch, all rogue enhancements under one branch, all racial enhancements under one branch, etc. Selecting show unavailable on a multiclass character can otherwise be a little overwhelming.

As for changing specific enhancements, I look forward to it! I think enhancement changes are one of the easiest ways to go about balancing some of the races and classes. Enhancements add a lot of variety between builds and classes, so having more options here can only be a good idea.

In general, Halflings/Dwarves/Elves/Drow Elves need a lot of work. These classes have almost next to nothing going for them enhancement wise. It would be nice to see some tweaking of Bard enhancements as well to allow for more specialization in either melee, healing or offensive casting (though this would require some useful offensive spells as well...) instead of most bards, arguably the most versatile class in the game, having basically the same enhancements regardless other than PrE requirements.

Some other specific things I'd love to see include:

Change Life Magic and Song Magic similar to how arcane enhancements were changed to have a separate tree for each spell enhancer (Eg. arcane enhancements went from a tree for fire/cold, to a tree for fire and a tree, same should happen for divine enhancers with AP cost reduced appropriately)

Reduce cost of halfling cunning/guile and change the dependence of guile on cunning. Rogue enhancements for SA damage do not require the rogue to purchase the enhancements for SA attack, so it seems silly that the equivalent halfling enhancements are linked.

Add force/untyped enhancements for clerics as a bare minimum. FvS would be nice, but we both know FvS have enough selling points already. This would help balance out clerics.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I'd love to see the DM heir PRE add in alternate capabilities similar to what is in the Dragonmarked book - maybe merging the Dragonmarked Heir w/ the specific DM PRCs in that book.

Oh hell yeah.

"Dragonmarks are a major part of what makes the Eberron setting interesting and distinct from the core D&D experience." - James Wyatt, the D&D Design Manager for Wizards of the Coast Roleplaying R&D

This would be a massive overstatement in DDO terms. I think there is real potential here, for a minimal amount of dev time (in comparison to many other projects I've read about) .

[nibel]

Definitely.

Boosting/Reshuffling Dragonmarks might also lead to some really cool new builds. I rarely, and I mean rarely build dragonmarks in for people, and find myself recommending against it almost exclusively. Thats a shame, they can be a great deal of fun and shouldnt be too hard on the design team to figure out how to make them respectful. Right now, far too expensive for what you get.

Maybe checking a bit of 4e dragonmarks on the enhancement line. Eg, 4e mark of healing gives a free saving throw every time the bearer heals someone. Obviously, 4e saving throws don't exist on DDO, but the idea may be there. Something to incentive HEALERS to get the MARK OF HEALING.

[Rhysem]

- To repeat the goals: improve comprehension, re-balance AP costs, improve or jettison weak enhancements, improve weak classes, finish PrE's.

^^^^ Doing it right.

Just make sure as you change enhancements you go back and do a pass over difficulties. If many tanks take some or all of their intimidate enh lines and those vanish, intim DCs need to change to reflect that.

[grodon9999]

I'd like to see the racial weapons get a SIGNIFICANT increase over what they are now. +4 to-hit/damsge over the current +2 over a SIGNIFICANTLY lower AP cost. And honestly compared to human/helf damage boost and horc general over-poweredness that might not even be enough.

I was very annoyed that my dwarf fighter was left with no choice but to go Khopesh, it's a slap in the face for a dwarf to have to spend 12 AP to do LESS damage than if he just spends 1 feat.

[Phemt81]

- Melee classes need love in general. Changes to enhancements will be made with this in mind.


I honestly find this the most exciting declared change in the "let's talk" threads.

Adjusting melees to balance the game experience compared to casters and modify some particular enhancements like paladin's divine might is definetely the way to go.

Also, in my personal opinion, 10 seconds are a bit too much for a 20 seconds boost, especially for a capped toon. And i am not considering the times you click an enhancement and it does not get casted (but cooldown sometimes works anyway!).

Compared to those things a user interface is not that much worth of concerns, but if you feel it's time to renew the outdated look, i can see your point.

What to say? I am really happy you are travelling on the right road! :)

[mystafyi]

when we release the enhancement Re-do.

Are these upcoming changes planned for U13 or this a longer term project?

Are changes being considered to bring the game more in line with 4.0 d&d?

[arkonas]

i love the idea of a revamp. i do know if anyone will get mad but maybe a tree sorta like the Rift? im not saying exactly but by doing an easy tree anyone can follow but yet gets the job done its really fun :)

[Redicular]

all for an updated UI, the current one really is a bear to work with.

all for enhancement changes, any and all changes really. the reason I play mmos and not singleplayer rpgs is the potential for/expectation that the game I play next month will have only a passing resemblance to the one i played last year

suggestions for the weak end of monk enhancements (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=357201). people who are wondering why we complain about AP progression requirements, read the first 1/2 of that post.

[mournbladereigns]

I like the idea that the UI will be redone.

But as others have said, crit rage barbarians are going to be very sad (possibly very angry also). You let them keep their enhancements when you changed them as long as they didn't reset them. Its kind of cool to here about the builds running around still sporting these enhancements. It would be a shame to see investment in these characters destroyed not because of a decision that they needed to go, but as collateral damage from a UI change.

Actually, if this Nerf's one of Shade's barb's I doubly support this!

I don't care how many monk handwrap's it breaks, I want my PrE's!

Dragongmark Heir PrE's being smexy would be win. also, I want my scorpion wraith!

Improve Racial Enhancements for Elves/Halflings, even Dwarves (If you include Dwarven Defender PrE, you'll see crying dwarves everywhere!) WF Juggernaut so the WF meelees will stop crying.

Biggest thing is, in the name of simplifying, don't totally dumb down/kill Multi-classing options plox. How about that practiced spellcaster feat already.

[waterboytkd]

- Your ideas/thoughts on which enhancements are currently of little value as well as suggestions for improvements or new enhancement lines are welcome and encouraged (although I should probably start a new thread for that so they aren't buried!)

I think you should start a new thread for each class and race. It'll be a lot of threads, but it'll keep feedback and info well organized.

And the sooner those official threads start, the sooner we can start giving you focused feedback. :B

[geoffhanna]

If this has already been brought out then I apologize.

But ...

Why not take this opportunity to get the PrE's out of the game altogether and replaced with actual Prestige Classes?

It will fit much better with your idea of enhancement trees.

Might be kind of hard on the UI, and on the way we look at the game. For instance, does the three-class limit still apply when one of the classes is a Prestige class?

But you are talking about big sweeping changes already. Why not take a few steps back and think about this at the same time - it would be a much more powerful way for us to customize our characters.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Here's a thought that doesnt get brought up enough...

Prestige Enhancements should be broken away from their base classes ....

There's no reason a Fighter shouldn't be allowed to go Tempest, and no reason a Ranger shouldn't be allowed to go Kensai. This concept is already used for Arcane Archer (All Elves can take it, regardless of class). Imagine a drwarven defender Barbarian, fortifying one of their weaknesses... for example...

If you take all the right feats or invest in all the right skills and stats, all PrEs should be available to take for any class as long as you meet the required feat/stat/skill/enhancement abilities.

This was how it was done in PnP and how it should be done in DDO.

The main benefit of course is MORE CHOICES. More ways to build the fighter/caster/healer/custom pimp my ride ___________ that you want to play. The other benefit I see is potentially greatly minimizing game balance issues tied to class PrE vs class PrE and minimize your headaches at the same time "this PrE is for fighters, so we need to balance that with another for paladins"...

[azrael4h]

A few random thoughts:

1 - While I believe the thought is to change the UI to more of a streamlined "can-actually-find-****" model rather than the "big honkin' list" we have now, I think it's important to reiterate many people's concerns: DO NOT MAKE ANY ALTERATIONS WHICH FORCE PLAYERS INTO CERTAIN ENHANCEMENT PATHS. DDO's variety of build options are what makes this game, more than anything. No other MMO allows me to build a raid-healing capable character which is also capable of mixing it up in melee. No other MMO allows a buffing support character to provide either crowd control or melee dps, or in some rare, heavily geared cases even able to operate as a tank. Any change which reduces the number of viable builds is bad for both long and short term player growth and retention. MMOs die because eventually they do not offer anything new to their players, and people leave.

2 - Merge identical enhancements. You did it with Improved Skill enhancements; but many classes share identical enhancements which are not compatible with each other. Others have noted that this can create incompatibilities with certain multi-class builds and PrEs. Stat enhancements, for example. Rather than having Ranger DEX and Rogue DEX, have a single 'Professional DEX' with a level requirement in Rogue or Ranger. Instead of Cleric Improved Turning and Paladin Improved Turning, have "Professional Improved Turning" with x levels of Paladin or Cleric for prerequisites.

3 - Higher-tier enhancements need to have AP costs reduced. Racial/Class Toughness IV is often not taken because it costs 4ap... compared to 1ap for tier 1. I actually like the thought of the first tier costing a bit more, while subsequent tiers are cheaper. Racial Healing Amp is horrendously expensive for the benefit of 10% on the third tier. I could go on. But in general; higher tiers should not cost 3-4x as much as the first but not provide any more benefit.

4 - Some classes need a serious looking into.

4a - Barbarians could use a bit of help, every Barbarian is the same currently. For the 'enhancement pass', may I suggest that one of DDO's most popular classes gets a second, full, PrE. I'm not picky, and I doubt anyone playing one is either, make a Ravager or Slayer, no one will complain as long as it can compare to Berserker. I might also suggest reworking Improved Damage Reduction to be 5% off the top per tier, 4 tiers. This will allow Barbarians to a) not be as squishy as they are now, increasing their lacking means of damage mitigation, and b) offset the gains that Defender Paladins and Fighters got with the upgraded Shield Mastery and Monks with Earth IV.

4b - Monks need some cost reductions for stances and strikes, and something worth spending AP on at the low level so they're not stuck taking Improved Spot for a couple of points.

4c - Paladins need a total-workover on their enhancement list; there is simply no way to take what you want and fit in useful racial enhancements like Racial Healing Amp. HotD is too expensive, AP wise, for a line which has limited value outside of a niche. Right now, the only general Paladin PrE I would consider is DoS, and that only post upgrade. KotC is nice... in specific content. As DDO grows, I hope to see plenty of non-Devil/Daemon content, which the more we get, the weaker KotC becomes. They also need a new capstone, since Artificers basically replace much of the functionality of their current one.

4d - Rangers need love as well; Tempest is border-line not worth taking; I'm on the fence as to whether the minor benefits are trumped by having 4 feats to pick something else instead are worth the trade off. Capstone isn't worth taking unless you're an AA, and Deepwood is definitely not worth taking. Outside of the FE damage/attack lines, I see nothing else the class gets to speak of really.

4e - Fighters need some work just to make their lines readable! Unlike the others, I think Fighter has a strong line of enhancements, but it's painful to even look at.

4f - All primary melee classes should have at least two tiers of healing amp. Throw us Divine players a bone. 'Course, I doubt anyone will give up their precious "DPS" for being 20% easier to heal, but that's expected. They can just sit and cry about not having anyone to hjeal them. 2ap per tier.

5 - Action boosts are a great way to give players a more active job when playing melee dps roles. However, unless you are a Horc Fighter Kensai, you only get 5-7. Even those only get what, a half-dozen more? I suggest reworking the "Extra Boost" lines into recharging boosts instead. Horc's can keep the extra boosts, since I think every class which gets an action boost also gets a class extra boosts line.

6 - Racial weapon enhancements are both too expensive, and too weak. 6ap for 2 to-hit? 6ap to 2-4 damage? To top it off, unless you are Horc and get all THF damage boosted, you're not getting boosts to the most common, high dps weapon type in-game; the Khopesh. Even for THF, the best you have now is a Greatsword. So only Horc's get bonuses there.

My suggestion is to reduce the costs, mainly on the second tiers (see #3). Add a third tier either increasing the critical range, or the multiplier on a natural 20. Perhaps both; though that may be a bit powerful. Then again, we're talking 6ap for each line (attack, damage, with each having a crit enhancement at the third tier). this would give Elven, Drow, and Dwarven melee a bump in dps with their racial weapons.

7 - Drow and Elves, more than any race (though Halflings need a cost reduction, they have good enhancements, and that falls under #3) need some help.

7a - Drow could add their SR enhancement lines back in, allowing them to actually have a higher SR than others. With Epic casters having such a high CR, I don't know where the balance would be at to have "not completely worthless in epic" and "not completely immune to spells in non-Epic".

7b - Mentioned before, by myself and others, here and elsewhere. Give Drow an exclusive racial line for INT, CHA, or DEX, rather than just DEX. This will give them a DC edge as a Sorcerer, Bard, Artificer, or Wizard.

8 - Instead of extra uses of the Dragonmarks, give them regenerating uses instead, via enhancements. Make it expensive, but it would be worth it on say a Halfling. Of course, making the rest of the marks useful and viable for all classes and not just Fighters, Wizards, Artificers, and Monks will still require work, but that's a feat pass, not enhancement pass.

9 - More PrEs!

[Scraap]

Another random thought: if melee are to be the sustained ability sub-group, how about modifying the extra x boost lines to more along the lines of regens? Say, 5 minutes for 1 action boost for the first tier, 3 for the second. Might make that 12 and 16 points spent a bit more attractive.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

Tree style enhancment UI. Awesome.

Screwing up all the enhancements of every single player and making changes in there too... Real bad idea.

Unless you can 100% GUARANTEE it will roll out with 0 bugs. ZERO. not a bunch that take 3 patches and another update to fix like everything else done lately. This **** is not acceptable anymore. You have a beta server. You have a preview server. LISTEN TO THESE PEOPLE ALREADY! And stop pushing bugged content out and fixing it later.
Ddo is not a new enough game to be pulling that bs anymore.

Pretty much sums it up for me too.

A new UI would be great, but it has to be usable. Changing up enhancements, on the other hand...have some fixes for all the feat changes and whatever else. The sorc savant changes with the free dragon blood were very smooth- there's no reason things shouldn't go just as smooth for anything else.

[dkyle]

Why not take this opportunity to get the PrE's out of the game altogether and replaced with actual Prestige Classes?

No, please.

I like PrEs better than PrCs.

[Lalangamena]

Hi,

the weak points in the current UI is that

1) you cant plan the enchancments you need without WIKI.
2) if you toggle the checkbox that shows all enhancements, you get ALL enhancements all the race enhancements that you cant use or get anyway which is very annoying ( like all spell enhancements AA enhancements etc) . removing from view enhancements that you cant take should be first priority.


thnx

[LeLoric]

This is the right time to power up bards, rangers, clerics, favored souls, etc... cant wait to see what's in store!

There's certainly an uneasy feeling in my stomach because they are messing with fire here. However, if Turbine has learned the biggest wants in each class' communities, this may be a very much appreciated, very excellent upgrade to the game. I'm cautiously upbeat.

Paladins is not spelled favored souls. I can't imagine favored souls getting a power up as they are extremely powerful right now.

[mystafyi]

I can't imagine favored souls getting a power up

Maybe a PrE that is ddostore only... I can't imagine turbine making so many changes without selling something in the ddostore :p

[maddmatt70]

I concur Madfloyd the UI for enhancements is terrible and changing that makes alot of sense. The UI is so cumbersome that it makes the enhancement process less fun. Now will this tree format be very different? I do not know, but I definitely agree that the presentation of the enhancements is poor. I like your enhancement system other then its presentation so be careful where you tread on the rest. Working on class balance and prestige enhancements is exciting. I like that Turbine is investing in character development because for me it is one of the best aspects of ddo. I think this will likley be a change for the better, but reserve judgement..

[Scraap]

Maybe a PrE that is ddostore only... I can't imagine turbine making so many changes without selling something in the ddostore :p

Up the character slots to 22?

[eeveefan127]

this sounds great, a tree style will really help with making decisions for AP enhancements.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Paladins is not spelled favored souls. I can't imagine favored souls getting a power up as they are extremely powerful right now.

Oh, Palis can certainly use some more love, why not :) But, I still can build various effective palis, something Im sure you can do very good as well. Im not a big fan of FvS's palette atm. I know they are extremely powerful at end game, but anything is overly powerful in the right hands... Im also not worried about how powerful anything is if they are re-shuffling the game balance. I'd reckon that Cleric vs FvS balance will be part of the equation when they get to that part of the project.

I may buck the odds on this one Leloric, but I favor clerics' versatility (not an intended pun:)) over FvS anyday, but thats just me. With inherently low skills, and lack of spell variety, and only one PrE, I'd like to see more options. Again, the ability to UNTIE PrEs from class would really make for some awesome new healer types.

[lathreborn]

Not to get completely off subject, but have any of you noticed that the only people COMPLAINING are people that have been dealing with the system AS IS for years????

And on to what I wanted to add...



The UI is so cumbersome that it makes the enhancement process less fun.

I have to agree that the UI is very cumbersome. However, most people I know have used the external character generator, myself included, for a long time. I started using it to plan my characters a few years ago, BEFORE the change to the UI that showed all the extra AP lines. I will CONTINUE to use the character generator even if the UI is streamlined. Although it would be nice to not have to look at all the fighter kensai APs on my cleric.

I also have to agree that having ONE AP line for the stat enhancements makes more sense in the long run than forcing players to choose between equally valid, and expensive, options.


Here's a thought that doesnt get brought up enough...

Prestige Enhancements should be broken away from their base classes ....

There's no reason a Fighter shouldn't be allowed to go Tempest, and no reason a Ranger shouldn't be allowed to go Kensai. This concept is already used for Arcane Archer (All Elves can take it, regardless of class). Imagine a drwarven defender Barbarian, fortifying one of their weaknesses... for example...

If you take all the right feats or invest in all the right skills and stats, all PrEs should be available to take for any class as long as you meet the required feat/stat/skill/enhancement abilities.

This was how it was done in PnP and how it should be done in DDO.

The main benefit of course is MORE CHOICES. More ways to build the fighter/caster/healer/custom pimp my ride ___________ that you want to play. The other benefit I see is potentially greatly minimizing game balance issues tied to class PrE vs class PrE and minimize your headaches at the same time "this PrE is for fighters, so we need to balance that with another for paladins"...

Agree totally. Variety is the name of the game when it comes to character creation; if there are not enough options, people will either find a way to get what they want, or go to a different game that DOES give them more variety.

I would be very careful in what gets changed and why. If there is no valid reason to change something, leave it alone.

[Flavilandile]

Reposting something I posted somewhere else and expanding a bit. ( not telling where it was posted, it's Fight Club Material )

To expand further what I suggested... and to try to explain that we already have something tree shapped so, it mostly need to have the presentation layer tinkered with.

First some definitions :
- a Tree : something with a trunk and some branches.
- a Trunk : in our case an enhancement without any requirement.
- a Branch : an enhancement that requires a trunk or another branch.

Note that in such instances I fully expect branches at some point to require several trunks.

So in a previous post I gave a general hint of something that could be nice ( something that works like Civ Tech tree, that is you select what you want to reach and let the game points you the requisites. Note the : WORK LIKE, I want something more complex than the Civ Tree with at least 20 trunks ( base enhancement that opens the others up ).


Now to be honest the enhancement system already more or less tree based, but it's not that obvious, as the trees are reversed :



Improved Heal I Life Magic I Charisma I
| | |
Divine Vitality I----\ Improved Turning I Improved Heal II Life Magic II Empower Healing Charisma II
| | | | | |
Prayer of Incredible Life I<----Prayer of Life I \---->Radiant Servant I <-----------------------------------------------------/ |
| | | |
\------------------------------>Radiant Servant II <------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------/

In the above example : Prayer of Life I, Divine Vitality I, Improved Turning I, Improved Heal II, Life Magic I and Charisma I are Trunks ( no requirements )
Any you end up with a nice Radiant Servant II tree. ;)

So if you look at what could be a tree system :

Prayer of Life is a requirement for Prayer of Incredible life... So Prayer of Life is a Trunk and Prayer of Incredible Life is one of the Branches. And Radiant Servant II is a Branche from multiple trees.

[quijenoth]

Not only directed at you Memnir

ou guys know the enhancements already use a tree system eh? It's shown quite well by Natean..from what I understand their not changing how taking enhancemnts works just giving a more user friendly UI and adding some more/repairing old less used & broken enhancements.

Remember when they changed the group UI? nothing changed in the machanics behind the scenes but its still a bone of contention with many players (especially healers) who find it hard to read (especially mana when ki is there as well).

Changing UI is certainly not one of the Devs strong-points if history serves us.

On specific Enhancement display issues the biggest problem I see is Fighters/Favored souls and weapon specializations, the fact each weapon is detailed gives a MASSIVE list over other classes.

On existing Enhancements Pale Master Skeleton Summon abilities need addressing. Right now they are useless AND expensive.

[Rian]

This will be the second overhaul of the enchancement UI system?
Not counting rebalancing or adding of enchancements, but the way we do enchancements.

It is incredibly irritating to use it as it is.
When I'm doing enchancement respecs I have to keep the character window open so I can see what I want.
Otherwise I may mess it up and have to wait to do it all over again.
It doesn't feel organized either.
It's not really "friendly" I suppose would be the word.

To the divine faith lines as enchancements themselves, there's really nothing beneficial to them except for PrE/AP progression and sucking down 6 APs that could be going to something else. I'd like to see that changed to be more useful. Right now they're all +1 to hit then some activated enchancement that costs 4 AP with a 10 minute cooldown, yet you need them for the PrE (at least for paladins, never played a cleric :p).

I don't think anyone actually uses the Bladesword Transformation, it's basically a paladin/cleric's version of Tensors Transformation to give bonuses that are not worth the penalties. I've only ever used Undying Call or Unyielding Sovereignty because they're actually useful, still not a fan of the timer though. I'd like for them to actually have a reason aside from AP and PrE progession to take them. Maybe allow paladins to increase their damage with their weapon of faith and clerics to increase their casting capabilities based on their faith?


On another note I hear a lot of people hollering about melee, yet so few only for ranged. My ranger has been my favorite character since the Titan first came out and I've adapted him the best I could so that he could fit my playstyle and still serve a purpose in game. I've found that Arcane archer was pretty much a duct tape fix, at least the way I see it anyhow. I feel that AA should be changed so that slaying arrow isn't the only choice endgame. There have been a few suggestions on AA that you could look at and brain storm. A viable Deepwood Sniper PrE too please :D


So in summary: MOAR PREs! LESS BROKEN STUFF! GOOD LUCK!

Hopefully something in this post makes sense! :D

[luvirini]

As for the UI, I definitely agree that it is clumsy to use.

As for changes to enchantments, I see a lot of fury in future..

Few notes on the actual enchantments:

There are few Prestige classes that are definitely sub-par my list of those would mosly be: mechanic and deepwood sniper.

The different spellcasting classes have different methods of enchanting their spells, wizard/sorceror buy them by element, but bard/cleric/fvs buy in "packs". Would make sense if they were the same method.

There are also quite many enchantments where the raising cost does not make sense. Like take the racial fear resistance III for halflings. There is no way it is worth a total of 6 ap to gain +3 to resist vs. fear. So taking a close look at any of 2/4/6 and 1/2/3 and similar cost progression things might be a good idea.

And ofcourse prestige classes in general.. there seem to be a lot of half ready and missing ones. One way to do "easy fix" on the racial one would be to make them like the elven arcane archer is ranger arcane archer. Thus a drow Scorpion Wraith would be assasin, Dwarven Defender would be Stalwart Defender and so on.

[karl_k0ch]

To expand further what I suggested... and to try to explain that we already have something tree shapped so, it mostly need to have the presentation layer tinkered with.


+1 for pointing that out in such a nice way.

While a change in UI might be inconvenient at start, I see that a graphical representation of the enhancements will make things much easier than the current list with listed prerequisites.

[slimkj]

Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.
Agreed about the UI and I can see it being daunting for a new player who hasn't grown up with it. I can only hope/urge that you don't, intentionally or otherwise, reduce build flexibility as this develops, as it's a major pull for the game and what keeps many people coming back after the content is no longer novel for them.