Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Aashrym]

Wow, thank you SO much. I'd rep this post if I hadn't already hit one of your other ones but I was completely wrong in how I read things.

I repped it for getting the clarification. So you are covered. :)

[kingfisher]

I really doubt many want to see a huge stacking OP change, followed by months of rebuilding characters - "omg I'm so uber now" - followed by all the new monsters, and half the old ones - getting huge buffs to challenge the new benchmarks of power - followed again the nurf bat making half the builds weak again, followed by another round of tweaking that gets things somewhere in a more balanced state. All of which will be accompanied by pages and pages of people complaining about other people being too powerful, then more people complaining after the nurfs, and complaints about - shocker! - monsters getting massively buffed yet again.


riggs this paragraph describes playing an mmo more accuratly than anything i have ever seen. we are all either dumb or crazy.

[Ganak]

One thing that occured to me...

We probably won't see any new PrC's until this new enhancement system is in right?

It would make sense to hold off on releasing them, but with a 6+ month ETA given, that's longer than I hoped before seeing some new PrCs.

[Aashrym]

Every indication is that PrE tiers will retain their class level prereqs.

Which brings up archmagi and arcane archers. They don't follow 3 tiers currently. Might be some big changes there.

[grodon9999]

Holy moly did this thread blow up, I take a day off from "work" and decide to grind up my TR and this has expanded like the Greek National debt . . .


I was in the middle of a post and hit preview, then accidentally deleted it. (My Forum-Fu is weak tonight!) But LeLoric sums up what I was writing pretty well.

Favored Damage is critical to some builds currently as the best way for Rangers to get additional damage, but with the new system there are new channels to get that sort of thing. Arcane Archers will be able to tier up their imbues. Tempests will have a little something as well to ramp up their damage from the new Dervish style enhancements.

The devil is in the detail, if any of these "details" leads to a tempest ranger doing less DPS than they do now please just remove the class from the game.

Or spill more details so we know if it's time to panic or not. This is starting to smell like U5 . . .

[Aashrym]

Holy moly did this thread blow up, I take a day off from "work" and decide to grind up my TR and this has expanded like the Greek National debt . . .



The devil is in the detail, if any of these "details" leads to a tempest ranger doing less DPS than they do now please just remove the class from the game.

Or spill more details so we know if it's time to panic or not. This is starting to smell like U5 . . .

I'm envisioning bards losing their capstone benefits and taking another unintentional nerf to bard casters in the supposed buffing of classes that need it. Details would be nice.

[grodon9999]

I think most rangers would actually be fine with this as long as they gain similar bonuses elsewhere. If tempest gets the same or more dps without the favored enhancements they will probably be happy as that means they are less focused on just a few enemy types.


That would be okay IF that is the case, lowering Tempest DPS would just be absurd considering where they fall in line on the DPS food-chain.

[Chai]

Or spill more details so we know if it's time to panic or not. This is starting to smell like U5 . . .

Solution: Buy stock in pitchfork manufacturing companies and popcorn machine parts distributors.

Come summertime, you might be a kajillionaire.

[grodon9999]

Solution: Buy stock in pitchfork manufacturing companies and popcorn machine parts distributors.

Come summertime, you might be a kajillionaire.

Already in the plans, as well as shorting Warner Bros. :)

[Aelonwy]

Its somewhat noteworthy that after all the dev interaction and feedback yesterday... not so much as a single "read to this point" comment today. Hopefully, they are discussing the feedback from yesterday before getting back with us further.

[slimkj]

I PM'd MadFloyd this question, since I thought it would get buried, and he just PM'd back confirmation that #1 is indeed correct. We will have access to 3 PrE trees only, including the Racial PrE you can buy from the Racial tree.
Hmm. This does seem like current mutts are going to take a hit then. :/

[Chai]

Its somewhat noteworthy that after all the dev interaction and feedback yesterday... not so much as a single "read to this point" comment today. Hopefully, they are discussing the feedback from yesterday before getting back with us further.

Id rather they do the work and comment on it once in a while than read and post all day, letting the work sit idle. These popcorn bonds arent going to mature themselves!!! :p

[toaf]

just had this idea. maybe let us reset say.. 20 AP a day or something. something like that might make any changes not so bad. it is a pain to reset them all at once. just another 2 cents worth

[ComicRelief]

I can see not actively spending points or feats on a prestige line for someone who really wants to be a generalist. I cannot, however, see someone being upset at the thought of having PrE bonuses added to the character for no cost when their generalist AP spending sets them over one of the thresholds.

It's like punching out the waiter for bringing a free dessert.

You're right - in the sense that "free is good" - but that's not how I understood what was being stated.

One thing's for sure - whatever and however things are changed/implemented, it's going to be...interesting (to say the least).
;)

[kingfisher]

Hmm. This does seem like current mutts are going to take a hit then. :/

not if they seperate the base class trees from the pre trees. things like fighter haste boost and barb sprint and ranger fe dam, and rogue sneak attack damage do not have to be tied to a pre ONLY, even if they help you qualify for that pre.

[Aeolwind]

I PM'd MadFloyd this question, since I thought it would get buried, and he just PM'd back confirmation that #1 is indeed correct. We will have access to 3 PrE trees only, including the Racial PrE you can buy from the Racial tree.

I was kind of hoping the answer would be 2 or 3, but I'm glad to know exactly what it is we should be discussing.

Interesting, Aren't there enough enhancement points that right now, someone could get an Elf/Half-Elf Fighter/Rogue/Monk a Kensei/Mechanic/Shintao/Arcane Archer?

Not saying anyone should mind you...

I'm stuck at work with no access to the planner; so I can't tinker with it myself. If my scenario above is the case, Racial PrE should be independent.

[Rog]

OK, read up to here.

First of all, just want to say thanks for all the participation and the valuable well articulated feedback.

I appreciate the concerns. There's a couple posts that I will respond to separately, but in general I want to say:

- I will share a mockup of the new UI.

- I am happy to reveal details of various enhancement lines as they become available - and have you guys scrutinize them.

- I need to look into the bowbarian builds.

- Lamannia has already been trendinfirst off i like the wayyou seensg towards earlier builds - ugliness and all; effectively it's becoming a test server, not a preview server. If everything goes as planned you get a chance to play & comment before it's too late to change.

- I consider myself chief of the nerf police. Not going to happen casually on my watch. In cases where it's truly warranted, it will be explained.

- Melee classes need love in general. Changes to enhancements will be made with this in mind.

- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER.

- Yes, many costs (and enhancements themselves) are not as useful as they once were when the level cap was much lower. All this is being looked at.

- Getting all PrE's finished is paramount to us. In an ideal world, they will all be finished when we release the enhancement Re-do.

- The UI is comprised of multiple trees (not just one) based on PrEs and race. You can spend points in multiple trees if you like.

- Your ideas/thoughts on which enhancements are currently of little value as well as suggestions for improvements or new enhancement lines are welcome and encouraged (although I should probably start a new thread for that so they aren't buried!)

- To repeat the goals: improve comprehension, re-balance AP costs, improve or jettison weak enhancements, improve weak classes, finish PrE's.

- All this is subject to change - whether it be due to player feedback, production considerations, or whatever.

Thanks again for keeping the thread productive.
MF
first ty for not nerfing the bowbarbian on a whim. now for the reseach factor they made this build when range attack was a joke very few choose to make a range build even fewer stuck with it to a point where at level 20. finding 1 is a statement of a asome group they stand out in any party just bescouse it cant be done now and to do it was taboo. if you enjoy making toons that say you and not cookie cutters then pull out your uber bowbarain and watch the guilds in the 90's take notice and welcome u to any party becouse u achived what they stand for. builds that can stand alone

[Thrudh]

And yet if you had more than 3 panels then any pure characters would lack for options compared to a multiclass toon.

This is a good point...


3 is a great number if you consider the fact that each class has 3 pre's and you can't have more than 3 classes on a multiclass toon. You can do 1 panel for each PrE, 1 panel for each class or any combination in between.

That's fine if EVERY PrE of a class has the basics... So if I'm a 12/6/2 fighter/ranger/rogue, I can get a PrE in fighter, ranger, and a few rogue enhancements. But if the fighter basics (like Haste Boost, STR +, Toughness) are spread among the three fighter PrEs suddenly multi-classing is going to cost a lot more than it used to...

Multi-classing has always been about trade-offs... I just want them to make sure that the trade-offs don't get so painful that it stops making sense to multi-class.



If you go back to Meat-Head's post on page 55 he outlines a concept in which you can make sure enough general enhancements are included and shared between each PrE so that nobody feels like they NEED to take all 3 of a classes tree to do similar to what 12point rogue may have had access to for example.

Yep, I like that proposal.

[oradafu]

That's fine if EVERY PrE of a class has the basics... So if I'm a 12/6/2 fighter/ranger/rogue, I can get a PrE in fighter, ranger, and a few rogue enhancements. But if the fighter basics (like Haste Boost, STR +, Toughness) are spread among the three fighter PrEs suddenly multi-classing is going to cost a lot more than it used to...

Multi-classing has always been about trade-offs... I just want them to make sure that the trade-offs don't get so painful that it stops making sense to multi-class.


This is why I can only see two options if the general class enhancements are only available in the prestige classes.

1) They are available in all the prestige classes of the class (your fighter example Haste Boost, STR and Toughness) and they lock out that choice in another prestige class when chosen.

2) They are available in all the prestige classes of the class and can stack but in smaller portions. So the pure class has access to them, but the multiclass would lose the full power of the general class enhancements as a tradeoff for access to another classes prestige class.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I'm envisioning bards losing their capstone benefits and taking another unintentional nerf to bard casters in the supposed buffing of classes that need it. Details would be nice.

I think Bards are all getting a boost. I doubt there's even room for yet another "unintentional nerf" to bard casters. If the capstone gets nerfed in the least, there better be one heck of an explanation in the prestiges... let alone granting some of the wishes the bard community let known in your now legendary thread.

Seriously, if we take another hit, I'm done with the class.

[Meetch1972]

One question with regards to the three trees thing of which I see a lot of mention...

How much overlap is going to be allowed between them?

There could be a strict dependency chain in one tree, while being optional in others. (Say, acrobat requires skill: tumble to be taken twice, while the other chains have it there with no prereqs).

[Auran82]

This is a good point...

That's fine if EVERY PrE of a class has the basics... So if I'm a 12/6/2 fighter/ranger/rogue, I can get a PrE in fighter, ranger, and a few rogue enhancements. But if the fighter basics (like Haste Boost, STR +, Toughness) are spread among the three fighter PrEs suddenly multi-classing is going to cost a lot more than it used to...

Multi-classing has always been about trade-offs... I just want them to make sure that the trade-offs don't get so painful that it stops making sense to multi-class.

Yep, I like that proposal.

If you really think about it, there is a limited number of enhancements for each class that you would need to ensure people can access even if they only have one Tree selected for that class.

Rogue:
Sneak attack/damage
Skill increases
Varying boosts

Fighter:
Varying boosts
Tactics enhancements

Bard:
Song attack/damage
Song length

etc etc

It shouldn't be too hard to fit these couple of enhancements in so they are available in each tree to a varying extent (warchanter having extra attack/damage options, Kensei probably having extra tactics enhancements etc) leaving the rest of the enhancements for the more specialised stuff for the pre, the stuff that's nice to take, but isn't paramount for every character of that class.

It would be important though to look at the class enhancements we have now and work out which are absolutely core to every character of that class and which really are bonuses that can be tied to specific PRE trees.

For 1 race tree and 3 class trees to work for the majority of characters, each tree has to be able to stand largely on it's own.

[MalarKan]

as long as you would give us a cool Thief Acrobat III prestige i will be happy ^^ ... besides, who wouldnt like to be like Morah!




"This thin golden band was worn by Morah, a vaunted performer in the marketplace of Stormreach. Such was
her acrobatic skill that she could cross the marketplace from end to end without ever touching the ground."
(Morah's band (http://ddowiki.com/page/Morah%27s_Band) description text)



prety pleeaase? :D

[Aashrym]

I think Bards are all getting a boost. I doubt there's even room for yet another "unintentional nerf" to bard casters. If the capstone gets nerfed in the least, there better be one heck of an explanation in the prestiges... let alone granting some of the wishes the bard community let known in your now legendary thread.

Seriously, if we take another hit, I'm done with the class.

I'm hoping for the boost, but with what looks like capstones based on PrE tree who loses what from the existing capstone? Other classes might be in the same boat. Wizards have a good capstone, artificers have a good capstone.

I wouldn't want a lot of bards to come out of this losing 3 DC's on their spells and 2 points of spell penetration, for example. That would be another nerf. That's why I am very interested in the details.

[CaptainSpacePony]

While this thread is about enhancements specifically, a lot of the meaty talk is related to game balance. Along those lines I'd like to raise the issue of 2nd and later life Drow characters. Can they have a meaningful reason to exist too?

[Gratch]

General Thoughts after mulling this over:

Pros:

It's time for a shakeup on Enhancements as well as completion on PRE's that has been stalling. Will embrace the changes hoping that there's at least a month of test (WITH TURNAROUND) on Lama before they blast onto live.
Was getting ready to TR my Barbo because he was so boring compared to my fighter and monk. Might leave him where he is now to see the changes.
Lotsa time will be spent respec'ing
Hopefully a lot of new build choices. Too many PRE's currently heavily pigeonhole the feats and AP's creating replicas all over. (Paly Defender 3, KotC 3, Frenzy 3, and the Necro3 are the worst at this).
Redo and hopefully fix bards. Make sure the sp regen song works on wfged while you're at it.


Cons:

A lot of multiclass level breakdowns are due to PRE levels. This could seriously rake a number of builds. Along with all the normal respec tokens that are going out - a +3 Heart per account might smooth things over with the community. Call it an anniversary bday present.
Lotsa time will be spent respec'ing
Lotsa new bugs?
No PRE changes until this all hits... I'd guess.
Target Update? U14? U15? What's in U13 btw?
MajMal (just calling him a con. He is a Pats fan. They're all cons. I heard (starting the rumor) that MajMal con'ed Flimsy out of his nacho plate just last week).

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I wouldn't want a lot of bards to come out of this losing 3 DC's on their spells and 2 points of spell penetration, for example. That would be another nerf. That's why I am very interested in the details.

Caster bards cannot sustain a -3 DC / -2 SP loss. That's just one reason why I feel we've reached "rock bottom." There HAS to be light at the other end of this rainbow for bards. I'm going with Turbine's word that there will be "many more choices" in relationship to bards. No doubt they'll need to do more for bards (as well as some other classes of course) than just polish and add a PrE, which is an understatement in relationship to bards.

That being said, I'm 100% with ya, I too am very interested in the details.

[Havok.cry]

Caster bards cannot sustain a -3 DC / -2 SP loss. That's just one reason why I feel we've reached "rock bottom." There HAS to be light at the other end of this rainbow for bards. I'm going with Turbine's word that there will be "many more choices" in relationship to bards. No doubt they'll need to do more for bards (as well as some other classes of course) than just polish and add a PrE, which is an understatement in relationship to bards.

That being said, I'm 100% with ya, I too am very interested in the details.

By many more choices eladrin was refering to his totally awesome kensai warchanter arcane archer... it is awesome.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

By many more choices eladrin was refering to his totally awesome kensai warchanter arcane archer... it is awesome.

Heh heh heh. Thats a funny :D

I am kinda surprised Im not up in arms but I'm really not. I know why people are getting nervous, Ive been a gamer since the Commodore Amiga days for cryin out loud (ok fine the C64!).

There's no need to get anxious - yet. Its far, far to early. I think Turbine is learning a lot however from the tears of elation, the nervous reactions, and the tears of doom. There's some great ideas in this thread from almost everyone posting.

Me? Im chillin with my bucket of popcorn and enjoyin' the read.

[Blank_Zero]

So here is the mockup that was promised.

To make it easier to digest, I’ve copy-pasted a section direct from Eladrin’s spec below. Again, all of this is subject to change.

In practice, the trees will probably look different, with more sideways arrows, etc but it should give you a pretty good idea of what we have in mind.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/MadFloyd/EnhancementMockup.jpg

A single classed character will have their racial tree and the three trees that are associated with their class displayed. These trees correspond to the three Prestige Enhancement lines tied to the class.

A multiclassed character can change a class enhancement tree with 0 points spent in it to a different class tree that is available to them using the drop down menus. For example, if this character multiclassed into Wizard, it could change the Rogue: Thief-Acrobat tree into Wizard: Archmage, Wizard: Pale Master, or Wizard: Wild Mage. Trees that have points spent in them cannot be changed to other trees. The racial tree cannot be swapped out for a different one.

Each race will have an enhancement that adds another specific enhancement tree to the character’s available list of trees. Elves and Half-Elves, for instance, gain access to the Arcane Archer tree if they take the racial enhancement to unlock it. Dwarves gain access to Stalwart Defender. The player can choose to unlock the tree and then not use it, if they so desire. Trees unlocked in this way use the character’s total character level instead of class level for prerequisites and effects.

Initially, players will have the bottom row of enhancements available to them. As players spend enhancement points within the current tree, additional tiers of enhancements will become available to them. Enhancements will no longer have a “total action points spent” prerequisite, this is replaced by a “total action points spent in this tree” prerequisite, and is defined by the tier the enhancement is on. (5 * [Tier of Enhancement – 1])

Most enhancements will be able to be selected multiple times – the player will do this by selecting the same enhancement repeatedly, incrementing the number of times it has been taken, giving greater effects, up to a limit. (For example, Sneak Attack Damage can be taken 5 times.) High tiers of most enhancements will have class level requirements.

Enhancements that are unavailable to the player are greyed out. Enhancements can still have feat or class level prerequisites – if a player does not meet these prerequisites, a red border or lock display is added to the icon. This should not be subtle, it should be absolutely clear to the player that there’s something wrong here, and they need to do something if they want this enhancement. Players can figure out what requirements they’re missing by viewing the tooltip.

Some enhancements have other enhancements as a prerequisites chain. These are shown in the mockup with arrows in between them. Knife Attack leads to Knife Damage, which then leads to Knife Specialization. An enhancement that has another as a prerequisite cannot have a rank higher than its prerequisite, so to get Knife Damage III, the player must have Knife Attack III. To get Knife Spec IV, the player must have both Knife Attack IV and Knife Damage IV. Most enhancements cost 1 Action Point. Rare ones will cost more. Costs do not increase each time you take an enhancement.

Each enhancement tree will have a line of enhancements that are automatically granted to the character based on the number of points spent in that tree. For example, when a character puts any 10 points in the Assassin tree, they will gain the Assassin I enhancement if they meet all other prerequisites. (Rogue level 6 in this case.) If they do not meet the prerequisites, then they will NOT gain the enhancement until they do. (Any time a player modifies their feats or gains a level, we’ll have to check access to the auto-granted enhancements.) These are shown in the mockup as the horizontal row of enhancements beneath the tree name.

Players should be able to spend action points anywhere in the world by opening up the Enhancements UI, without needing to seek out a trainer. Enhancements can be reset on a tree-by-tree basis using the “Reset Enhancements” button near the bottom of each pane, which is only available in public areas. This has a platinum cost associated with it based on the number of points currently spent in the tree.

I like it.

I also invite you all to take a look at Rift's skill tree, although by looking at this, it seems you already have.

[sirgog]

Been thinking more about this.

Right now DDO has 12 classes, and your class level split is usually the most defining thing about your character. After this change, PrE choice(s) will take over.

In a way, it will feel like we have thirty-something classes.

The 'Barbarian' that joins your group will be less of a 'Pure Barbarian 20' and more of a 'Frenzied Berserker 46/Occult Slayer 30/Ravager 4' multiclass.

And the Rog13/Ftr6/Mnk1 with the quarterstaff will be more of a 'Acrobat 30/Kensai 20/Assassin 15/Half-Orc Ravager 15'.


While this will likely bust up some builds fairly badly I expect - especially Rog2/4/7 splashes (the Haste Boost + Sneak Attack enhancement splashes, like Blitz builds) - I expect it won't be as significant a buildbreaker as some other recent changes. Remember what the Update 9 changes to Epics did to Heavy Pick melee, or what the Update 11 raidboss physical DPS increases did to Warforged melee tanks?

[Aashrym]

By many more choices eladrin was refering to his totally awesome kensai warchanter arcane archer... it is awesome.

Which has nothing to do with a caster bard unfortunately. Implementing a class that utilizes CC in it's main features (which include a lot of spells) when the game mechanics lend to melee is counter intuitive.

I have high hopes I can have a spellsinger capstone with realistic caster potential and enthrall and either nice IC or some archmage SLA's if I can slip that in as a choice for human racial PrE somehow.

I would be concerned if we lost that capstone, and possibly concerned that we lose the full song duration enhancement line because it's in the virt tree (cutting effectiveness of vigor significantly) and cannot afford IC enhancements at all because they are in the war chanter tree.

Not to mention which tree gets wand and scroll.

I thought I better voice my concern before I learn the hard way.

All that still remains to be seen and some builds really might not be viable or some might be improved in ways I don't know yet. What it really means is I cannot wait to see what is coming, and then we can make better assessments.

I can't imagine what is in store to compete with the artificer capstone. ;)

[voodoogroves]

Been thinking more about this.

Right now DDO has 12 classes, and your class level split is usually the most defining thing about your character. After this change, PrE choice(s) will take over.

In a way, it will feel like we have thirty-something classes.

The 'Barbarian' that joins your group will be less of a 'Pure Barbarian 20' and more of a 'Frenzied Berserker 46/Occult Slayer 30/Ravager 4' multiclass.

And the Rog13/Ftr6/Mnk1 with the quarterstaff will be more of a 'Acrobat 30/Kensai 20/Assassin 15/Half-Orc Ravager 15'.


While this will likely bust up some builds fairly badly I expect - especially Rog2/4/7 splashes (the Haste Boost + Sneak Attack enhancement splashes, like Blitz builds) - I expect it won't be as significant a buildbreaker as some other recent changes. Remember what the Update 9 changes to Epics did to Heavy Pick melee, or what the Update 11 raidboss physical DPS increases did to Warforged melee tanks?

I've got a 12/3/5 split on one toon who I know is going to be wonky; he's wonky-ish now.

That's ok. I'll survive.



HOWEVER



The social panel will need a bit of work. If I need a tank, I need a tank. If that isn't just fighter, pally or possibly monk anymore ... well ... we need a way to call that out. Sure there's text, but if we're really going to make the class icons unimportant ... remove them and give us more space for the text.

etc.

[Meat-Head]

I
Fourth.) this is not a complaint without suggestion post, (i hate those) so here is a small suggestion pardon me if its been said before. why not give each class 3 trees to start with; racial, base class, and pre, and then when they take a level of another class, they get that classes base tree. when they take enough levels in that class to qualify for a pre, they get the pre tree too. when they dip a third class, same rule applies, class base tree first, then pre tree if applicable. theat would give a 3-class 6 trees, but they would only be reaching the top tier of ONE pre, the racial one, if any. this is what we have now, as designed, intended, and implemented by turbine for years. please tell me how having access to only 3 trees instead of 6 is 'MORE CHOICES'? i dont understand why this would even be an issue, why limit it at all? as stated above, you start at the bottom of each tree and there are only 80 AP's to spread around. if a someone wants to splash barb for the sprint boost or fighter for the martial weapon usage who cares? its another tree with like 2 ap's used at the very bottom. if they want to splash wiz for the free meta magic feat and a few enhancements, big deal. if you are a fighter that dips rogue for evaision and a couple ap's worth of sneak attack damage why on earth would it HAVE to be one of your main trees? so what if you were born on the wrong side of the tracks and stole a copper or two before enlisting and starting your career as a fighter? that's gonna keep you from learning how to be a fighter at the highest level? really?

Cinco.) Suggestion 2, you could seperate the enhancement lines even further into tabs, like say you have a racial tree tab (1 tree) and then a class tree tab (up to 3 trees if you take 3 classes), and then a pre tree tab (up to 3 trees). the pre's would have to be selected whereas the class and racial trees would always be there. a 3-class would have harder choices, akin to the sacrifices made in the name of customization. pures would have less choices and flexibility but could attain higher tiers in their class pre's. this would give distinct advantages to both pure and multiclass builds and would allow for maximum custimization. same stacking rules as stated above to guard against overpowering. basically what we have now. only prettier to look at, easier to use, with a new UI. lol. (ie. MORE CHOICES!)

Lastly.) for reference - i have a dozen or more 3-class toons so obviously if this change ends up limiting them it will kill DDO for me. just sayin.

These, more or less, have been suggested already.

Boils down to:

1. Have an EXTRA general enh tab for your class(s)
2. Have each tree have ALL the general class enhs available within it

[sirgog]

Which has nothing to do with a caster bard unfortunately. Implementing a class that utilizes CC in it's main features (which include a lot of spells) when the game mechanics lend to melee is counter intuitive.

I have high hopes I can have a spellsinger capstone with realistic caster potential and enthrall and either nice IC or some archmage SLA's if I can slip that in as a choice for human racial PrE somehow.

I would be concerned if we lost that capstone, and possibly concerned that we lose the full song duration enhancement line because it's in the virt tree (cutting effectiveness of vigor significantly) and cannot afford IC enhancements at all because they are in the war chanter tree.

Not to mention which tree gets wand and scroll.

I thought I better voice my concern before I learn the hard way.

All that still remains to be seen and some builds really might not be viable or some might be improved in ways I don't know yet. What it really means is I cannot wait to see what is coming, and then we can make better assessments.

I can't imagine what is in store to compete with the artificer capstone. ;)

Pretty sure Spellsinger will get the wand/scroll enhancements. That's fine, my Warchanter will take them regardless.

I would not be surprised to see Spellsingers get an ability, very 'deeply buried' in their tree, to cast Mass Hold Monster and/or Heal, allowing them to continue in their role of 'I'm half a caster/healer and I make every other caster/healer much better'.

[Meat-Head]

If you go back to Meat-Head's post on page 55 he outlines a concept in which you can make sure enough general enhancements are included and shared between each PrE so that nobody feels like they NEED to take all 3 of a classes tree to do similar to what 12point rogue may have had access to for example.

Post # 1096 for people that don't use the default number of posts per page. :)

[Artos_Fabril]

We're still figuring this stuff out. If you have opinions on which way to go, let us know!
Why not pull the general enhancements out of the PrEs completely.

Instead of forcing general expenditures into PrE qualifiers, break them out, and shorten the PrE qualifier trees by, say 10 points each. PrEs are already going to be gated by character levels, and if necessary PrE qualifying enhancements can be given base-class pre-reqs (as acrobat is now with Rogue Dex, for instance. Although I would remove that specific requirement, unless acrobats start gaining much more benefit from dex).

There may be a concern about the ability to gain multiple "capstones" if the trees are shortened from 40+ points each. Two possible ways to prevent this are by making sure there are base class pre-reqs that force the cost up so that a pure build couldn't have multiple capstones, or to code the PrE enhancements as free but selectable and put a limit of one capstone per character. (or one per pure class + 1 for racial PrE)

Alternatively, you could shorten the trees and allow a character to take multiple PrEs, if they have the qualifiers. You'd still be looking at a significant point expenditure, giving up a lot of general and racial enhancements in favor of PrE enhancements.

[Aashrym]

The social panel will need a bit of work. If I need a tank, I need a tank. If that isn't just fighter, pally or possibly monk anymore ... well ... we need a way to call that out. Sure there's text, but if we're really going to make the class icons unimportant ... remove them and give us more space for the text.

I think that would true of the class forums too. Roles is a better way to differentiate what we are looking for in the social panel, I agree.

[Meat-Head]

Why not pull the general enhancements out of the PrEs completely.

Instead of forcing general expenditures into PrE qualifiers, break them out, and shorten the PrE qualifier trees by, say 10 points each. PrEs are already going to be gated by character levels, and if necessary PrE qualifying enhancements can be given base-class pre-reqs (as acrobat is now with Rogue Dex, for instance. Although I would remove that specific requirement, unless acrobats start gaining much more benefit from dex).

There may be a concern about the ability to gain multiple "capstones" if the trees are shortened from 40+ points each. Two possible ways to prevent this are by making sure there are base class pre-reqs that force the cost up so that a pure build couldn't have multiple capstones, or to code the PrE enhancements as free but selectable and put a limit of one capstone per character. (or one per pure class + 1 for racial PrE)

Alternatively, you could shorten the trees and allow a character to take multiple PrEs, if they have the qualifiers. You'd still be looking at a significant point expenditure, giving up a lot of general and racial enhancements in favor of PrE enhancements.


I get this, but is it really too tricky to have a required general class enh for a PrE? Maybe the required box can have a yellow border or something. The tooltip on the PrE could show your progress toward the PrE, etc.

What you have proposed here is probably more complicated than they will do even though it's not THAT bad.

[sirgog]

I think that would true of the class forums too. Roles is a better way to differentiate what we are looking for in the social panel, I agree.

DDO is far too varied for 'class roles' to make sense.

I mean, is my Wizard an insta-killer, a crowd controller, a single-target ranged DPS, a healbot for WF, an AoE DPSer, or are they a tank? They can do all of those to some extent.

[voodoogroves]

I think that would true of the class forums too. Roles is a better way to differentiate what we are looking for in the social panel, I agree.

Absolutely.


And you know I'm jazzed if I can run an Air Savant bard and call it a Lyric Thaumaturge or Stormsinger. I'm nuts that way.

[voodoogroves]

DDO is far too varied for 'class roles' to make sense.

I mean, is my Wizard an insta-killer, a crowd controller, a single-target ranged DPS, a healbot for WF, an AoE DPSer, or are they a tank? They can do all of those to some extent.

Yeah but you get the point right?

LFM ... well, I need a tank. What classes do I ask for in this new model?

[Aashrym]

DDO is far too varied for 'class roles' to make sense.

I mean, is my Wizard an insta-killer, a crowd controller, a single-target ranged DPS, a healbot for WF, an AoE DPSer, or are they a tank? They can do all of those to some extent.

Tank, dps, healing, crowd control, ranged/artillery support seem like reasonable choices for roles. There could be more but I agree with voodoo that the class list is much less indicative of what we will be getting than roles would be that we need covered.

Some are obvious but others are not so much. In your example, if voodoo posted he wanted a tank and your wizard can do that you know what he's looking for and what you are applying for.

[waterboytkd]

Been thinking more about this.

Right now DDO has 12 classes, and your class level split is usually the most defining thing about your character. After this change, PrE choice(s) will take over.

In a way, it will feel like we have thirty-something classes.

The 'Barbarian' that joins your group will be less of a 'Pure Barbarian 20' and more of a 'Frenzied Berserker 46/Occult Slayer 30/Ravager 4' multiclass.

And the Rog13/Ftr6/Mnk1 with the quarterstaff will be more of a 'Acrobat 30/Kensai 20/Assassin 15/Half-Orc Ravager 15'.


While this will likely bust up some builds fairly badly I expect - especially Rog2/4/7 splashes (the Haste Boost + Sneak Attack enhancement splashes, like Blitz builds) - I expect it won't be as significant a buildbreaker as some other recent changes. Remember what the Update 9 changes to Epics did to Heavy Pick melee, or what the Update 11 raidboss physical DPS increases did to Warforged melee tanks?

I like this way of looking at it. You're not taking 2 levels of rogue. You're taking 5 AP worth of Assassin...

BUT

Regarding the need for a General ability tree, here's something to think about: the reason we have general enhancements right now (as in enhancements everyone of that class takes) is because there aren't enough good enhancements in that class. Every fighter takes Haste boost because it's the best, and there's nothing else to take to replace it. Every ranger takes FE stuff because there's nothing else to take.

It's very possible that this won't be true under this new system. I mean, how many 12/6/2 builds taking 6 ranger also want haste boost? Guess what, they can get that from Tempest tree now. My point is that the NEED for a general tab may not even be there. Every tree might have something you want in it anyways. When you have your mutt builds, you might find that every tree is awesome, and you don't have enough AP to get everything you want out of 2 trees, let alone 6.

In that small glimpse we got of Tempest, I think 4 enhancements were listed, only 1 of them we ever heard of, and zero of them are current ranger enhancements.

This is an excellent opportunity for us to voice our concerns to the devs, but is a terrible time to give prescriptive feedback, because we have no idea what all is going to be in the new system. Being worried that a 3 classed toon will be locked out of good enhancements because of the 3 tree limit is a legitimate concern. But there may not be a need for a general tree because it may turn out 3 trees of enhancements is already more than you can chew (as in it'll have everything you want, especially with smart tree selection).

[Aashrym]

And you know I'm jazzed if I can run an Air Savant bard and call it a Lyric Thaumaturge or Stormsinger. I'm nuts that way.

Sounds like a way to get stormsingers in there. With the comment about using dervish to improve tempest I was hoping to see some additions like lyric thaumaturge, sublime chord, seeker of the song to flesh out bards a bit anyway. That's on my optimistic side.

[kingfisher]

I like this way of looking at it. You're not taking 2 levels of rogue. You're taking 5 AP worth of Assassin...

BUT

Regarding the need for a General ability tree, here's something to think about: the reason we have general enhancements right now (as in enhancements everyone of that class takes) is because there aren't enough good enhancements in that class. Every fighter takes Haste boost because it's the best, and there's nothing else to take to replace it. Every ranger takes FE stuff because there's nothing else to take.

It's very possible that this won't be true under this new system. I mean, how many 12/6/2 builds taking 6 ranger also want haste boost? Guess what, they can get that from Tempest tree now. My point is that the NEED for a general tab may not even be there. Every tree might have something you want in it anyways. When you have your mutt builds, you might find that every tree is awesome, and you don't have enough AP to get everything you want out of 2 trees, let alone 6.

In that small glimpse we got of Tempest, I think 4 enhancements were listed, only 1 of them we ever heard of, and zero of them are current ranger enhancements.

This is an excellent opportunity for us to voice our concerns to the devs, but is a terrible time to give prescriptive feedback, because we have no idea what all is going to be in the new system. Being worried that a 3 classed toon will be locked out of good enhancements because of the 3 tree limit is a legitimate concern. But there may not be a need for a general tree because it may turn out 3 trees of enhancements is already more than you can chew (as in it'll have everything you want, especially with smart tree selection).

which brings up the real question about multiclass toons, will this make them unnecessary? perhaps, butoo early to tell. feats and class abilities are still the main reason for splashing classes. but if say a full dos pally or an fb barb can also be a full tempest without taking any ranger levels, well that might make rangers even more underwhelming no? depends on what enhancements end up being tied to the racial pre's. there has got to be enough seperation from the real class that a racial pre on another class does not become always better than the original class.

[Yaga_Nub]

OK, read up to here.

First of all, just want to say thanks for all the participation and the valuable well articulated feedback.

I appreciate the concerns. There's a couple posts that I will respond to separately, but in general I want to say:

- I will share a mockup of the new UI.

- I am happy to reveal details of various enhancement lines as they become available - and have you guys scrutinize them.

- I need to look into the bowbarian builds.

- Lamannia has already been trending towards earlier builds - ugliness and all; effectively it's becoming a test server, not a preview server. If everything goes as planned you get a chance to play & comment before it's too late to change.

- I consider myself chief of the nerf police. Not going to happen casually on my watch. In cases where it's truly warranted, it will be explained.

- Melee classes need love in general. Changes to enhancements will be made with this in mind.

- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER.

- Yes, many costs (and enhancements themselves) are not as useful as they once were when the level cap was much lower. All this is being looked at.

- Getting all PrE's finished is paramount to us. In an ideal world, they will all be finished when we release the enhancement Re-do.

- The UI is comprised of multiple trees (not just one) based on PrEs and race. You can spend points in multiple trees if you like.

- Your ideas/thoughts on which enhancements are currently of little value as well as suggestions for improvements or new enhancement lines are welcome and encouraged (although I should probably start a new thread for that so they aren't buried!)

- To repeat the goals: improve comprehension, re-balance AP costs, improve or jettison weak enhancements, improve weak classes, finish PrE's.

- All this is subject to change - whether it be due to player feedback, production considerations, or whatever.

Thanks again for keeping the thread productive.
MF

Don't release this until you have all the PrEs finished. Period. End of Story.

Yaga has spoken.

[Vormaerin]

Which brings up archmagi and arcane archers. They don't follow 3 tiers currently. Might be some big changes there.

Actually, I think it will be the other way around. I expect the other PrEs to be broken up into little bonuses like Archmage, Arcane Archer, and Kensai sort of are now.

There isn't going to be a point where you say "ahah, I'm Kensai 2 now". Look at the Tempest example. There were five or six points where they got some "free" bonus for total points invested in the tree.

Class levels will be needed to meet certain enhancement requisites, either because the enhancement has a level restriction or because its a feat booster and the prerequisite feat requires a high level.

[Auran82]

At this point its almost worth losing the name 'Prestige enhancement' and call them something like 'Tree synergy bonuses' because people are still getting confused with what is being suggested.

From what I can tell, there is no such thing as a prerequisite to get access to the old PREs, you simply spend x points in the tree on whatever you want. It sounds like for the most part, they are completely removing feat requirements, and just having certain parts of the old PREs be purchasable if you have those additional feats (like the supreme cleave enhancement requiring cleave on the new FB tree)

I am hoping for the best with this, and it's really good they are getting this out there nice and early to get lots of feedback. The current enhancement system as it is, was introduced when the cap was 12 (just before GH) and really hasn't seen many changes since, stuff has just been piled on top of it. (there have been a couple of re-shuffling enhancement costs, but mostly very little change) I suspect they want to make getting each AP more rewarding and make it so you can see your progression better, as opposed to now, where for the first few levels you look at what enhancements are available and see nothing at all interesting, then having stuff seemingly appearing at random when you hit differing 'AP spent' levels. The current interface is ugly and unweildly at best and I guess they figured that while they were looking at it, they might as well redo the whole thing.

I can imagine one of the things making it more difficult to implement the other PREs was trying to jam them in the middle of a system that really, hasn't changed since it's inception.

I just hope they don't throw out the bathwater, then realise "Oh, there was a baby in there"

[Vormaerin]

w but if say a full dos pally or an fb barb can also be a full tempest without taking any ranger levels, well that might make rangers even more underwhelming no? depends on what enhancements end up being tied to the racial pre's.

You are ignoring the costs. What do you mean by "Full DoS Pally"? and "full tempest"? They obviously can't have both capstones. Do you mean ~30 points of the respective trees?

That sounds great. Except you are paying extra (unknown amount, but probably 2-5% of your total points) to open that up by racial tree instead of class. You also may run into problems with Feat enhancers. I doubt that a Drow will get the Favored Enemy and Wild Empathy Feats just for opening the racial PrE tab.

And you now have to give up one of your Pally lines. So if your Smite and Divine Sacrifice are in the KotC line and your DM and LoH enhancements are in Hunter of the Dead, which are you going to give up to get Tempest? It may not automatically be better.

If you are a race with actually useful racial lines (ie not an elf or drow), then you have to consider that any points spent on that won't tier you up in any PrC. Human Versatility, Human Healing Amp, Racial Toughness, Racial Stats... even if they are all 1pt a piece for the existing tiers, you've just spent 12 pts, plus your 2-4 pts on opening your "race pre" (at a guess), before you start ranking up any PrE.

If you try to Tier III two PrEs, you are very likely to be pretty gimp. Capstone + Tier III leaves you 9 pts (before the racial PrE fee) to spend between racials and your third line. Don't think that's going to cut it on most builds

[Meat-Head]

At this point its almost worth losing the name 'Prestige enhancement' and call them something like 'Tree synergy bonuses' because people are still getting confused with what is being suggested.

From what I can tell, there is no such thing as a prerequisite to get access to the old PREs, you simply spend x points in the tree on whatever you want. )




This is not correct. In order to get Kensei II, for example, you will have to have purchased X amount in the Kensei tree AND be level 12 fighter.


Quote from Eladrin via PM: "A 2 level splash could replace all three of their trees with those from the splash class, but due to level restrictions on enhancements they'll probably be restricted to the bottom two rows of enhancements, and won't get the free ones. (Those require levels 3/6/9/12/15/18/20.)"


Bottom line, aside from SOME feat reqs. There is still a min class level req in addition to the AP spent req. for PrEs

[Aashrym]

Actually, I think it will be the other way around. I expect the other PrEs to be broken up into little bonuses like Archmage, Arcane Archer, and Kensai sort of are now.

There isn't going to be a point where you say "ahah, I'm Kensai 2 now". Look at the Tempest example. There were five or six points where they got some "free" bonus for total points invested in the tree.

Class levels will be needed to meet certain enhancement requisites, either because the enhancement has a level restriction or because its a feat booster and the prerequisite feat requires a high level.

Yeah, I was going by the tier I at 10, tier II and 20, tier III at 30 but giving the other bonus outside of the actual PrE named tiers it does look like a total of 7 levels per PrE tier. Big changes all around.

[BlackSteel]

sooooooooooo

I'm sure somewhere you guys have a nice general mockup of what trees we'll be seeing. Any chance of just getting the names of the 3 prestige trees for Artificers?? Battle Engineer + X + X

[Melcena]

Well, most of what I want to say has already been said. I do think that certain abilities need to stay out of just 1 tree, but that does not seem likely. They will most likely make certain abilities available to all trees within a prestige. However, considering what few tid bits have been tossed our way, there is nothing to get overly excited about.

Yes, you may only be able to get one capstone, but considering the enthusiasm in our programming staff, I think that one capstone might be a good thing from a balancing point of view. Honestly, I am just more curious right now on just what is getting modified on the wizard front over what trees I will choose.

Frankly, I am just more concerned at this point about the gap between a new player and veterans such as myself. Honestly, I think that this could be a step towards a future where veterans and new players finally stare across from each other on an even footing.

[Artos_Fabril]

I get this, but is it really too tricky to have a required general class enh for a PrE? Maybe the required box can have a yellow border or something. The tooltip on the PrE could show your progress toward the PrE, etc.

What you have proposed here is probably more complicated than they will do even though it's not THAT bad.
The problem is less one of having certain enhancements required for a given PrE, it is that certain enhancements, for example Sneak Attack Training (increased SA damage) for rogues is highly desirable regardless of PrE, even though it is only required for Assassin. Putting it in the Assassin Tree essentially forces all rogues to put points in that tree, unless there is an equally powerful and mutually exclusive enhancement in both other trees.

If there is an equally powerful, but mutually exclusive enhancement in both other trees, where does an Assass/robat or Assass/aninc spend their secondary tree points?

Worse still, if Haste boost (currently required for acrobat) is in the acrobat tree and sneak attack damage (currently required for assassin) is in the assassin tree, do mechanics get equally powerful enhancements in their tree, or are they "forced" (in order to have an acceptable build) to take all 3 trees? That would be a huge blow to multi-classing.

Same deal with fighter strength and toughness, barbarian rage enhancements, sorc/wiz/clr/fvs spell power lines, etc.

If you copy them across all trees, they either have to stack, or be mutually exclusive, but unless all low tier enhancements are the same across all trees, you restrict build choices for any character who wants a secondary tree in their main class to taking the low-tier enhancements they haven't locked out in order to get the higher tier enhancements they want.

Until we actually see it, we can't know how good/bad it will actually be. But since Vargouille plainly stated that they are still working that out, it seems like a great time to speak up and say, "Do not pigeonhole basic class abilities into specific trees"

I don't see how, for instance, creating a "Rogue" tab alongside the "Acrobat", "Assassin", and "Mechanic" tabs is any more difficult than trying to determine which abilities go in which tabs, and how to balance them against each other so that players are not locked out of multi-classing some classes, or otherwise constrained to certain build choices in order to not "gimp" themselves out of groups and raids.


This is not correct. In order to get Kensei II, for example, you will have to have purchased X amount in the Kensei tree AND be level 12 fighter.

Interestingly, even if you only have 2 rogue levels, you'll have full access to the rogue trees. BUT, you would never get the PrEs because you would not qualify based on class level.
[...]
Bottom line, aside from SOME feat reqs. There is still a min class level req in addition to the AP spent req.
I don't believe that all enhancements within a class are going to be available regardless of class-level. It is more reasonable to assume that class-level requirements will remain similar to what they are now even for basic enhancements, so no splashing 1 fighter for full fighter strength, toughness, and haste boost lines. You might be able to spend 10-15 points in a class with only a 1-2 level splash, if all you wanted was all of the lowest class-level required enhancements.

Your last sentence seems to state the same thing, but is contradicted by the assertion that a 1 level splash could take all three splash class trees, AND manage to spend 80 AP between them.

[oradafu]

If there is an equally powerful, but mutually exclusive enhancement in both other trees, where does an Assass/robat or Assass/aninc spend their secondary tree points?

Worse still, if Haste boost (currently required for acrobat) is in the acrobat tree and sneak attack damage (currently required for assassin) is in the assassin tree, do mechanics get equally powerful enhancements in their tree, or are they "forced" (in order to have an acceptable build) to take all 3 trees? That would be a huge blow to multi-classing.



My guess is that Mechanic will get Rogue Skill Boost in their tree, since it's a requirement. So I can forsee Wizard18/Rogue2 builds will do better traps than acrobats and assassins with the changes,

[Meat-Head]

I don't see how, for instance, creating a "Rogue" tab alongside the "Acrobat", "Assassin", and "Mechanic" tabs is any more difficult than trying to determine which abilities go in which tabs, and how to balance them against each other so that players are not locked out of multi-classing some classes, or otherwise constrained to certain build choices in order to not "gimp" themselves out of groups and raids.

Agree. General consensus appears to be: Have a separate class tab OR have all general class enh available through each of the class trees.



I don't believe that all enhancements within a class are going to be available regardless of class-level. It is more reasonable to assume that class-level requirements will remain similar to what they are now even for basic enhancements, so no splashing 1 fighter for full fighter strength, toughness, and haste boost lines. You might be able to spend 10-15 points in a class with only a 1-2 level splash, if all you wanted was all of the lowest class-level required enhancements.

Woops.. You're right. I mis-remembered Eladrins response to me in a PM. Here it is:

"A 2 level splash could replace all three of their trees with those from the splash class, but due to level restrictions on enhancements they'll probably be restricted to the bottom two rows of enhancements, and won't get the free ones. (Those require levels 3/6/9/12/15/18/20.)"

[Vormaerin]

I think that shallow splash multi classing will take a mild hit, because you won't get nearly as much enhancement joy out of 1 or 2 levels as in the past.

However, I don't think that's the same thing as multiclasses are doomed. If taking that rogue level for 1d6 sneak attack, all the class skills, trapsmithing feat, and evasion isn't enough without getting the Rogue boosts, then it will be a bad choice.

But most splashes are about the class abilities and the enhancements are gravy.

Many people are freaking out as if not getting all the same enhancements that are considered "The best" now is the end of the world. There's going to be a lot more enhancements and a lot more options for mixing and matching. You are going to get more abilities overall if the Tempest example is typical.

You do realize that hard choices are actually a boon for diversity, right? If you set up a "general" tab with all the good enhancements, then you are contributing to cookie cutter sameness. The way to create diversity is to have a variety of useful things that each player can only have a portion of. If everyone takes 90% the same enhancements, that's not diversity.

[Vormaerin]

This is not correct. In order to get Kensei II, for example, you will have to have purchased X amount in the Kensei tree AND be level 12 fighter.

Bottom line, aside from SOME feat reqs. There is still a min class level req in addition to the AP spent req. for PrEs

But that doesn't mean quite the same thing it does now. You need to meet the level requisites to get those bonus abilities, but its not clear how many (if any) of the tree's enhancements will have level requisites.

[Auran82]

I think that shallow splash multi classing will take a mild hit, because you won't get nearly as much enhancement joy out of 1 or 2 levels as in the past.

For the most part, you really don't get access to many useful enhancements from a 2 level splash, other than toughness and sprint boost, anything major I am missing? Any other enhancements you take from those 2 levels are usualy just because there is nothing else useful to take in your main class(es) and you need to spend another point to get to X points spent so you can take some other enhancement.

[sephiroth1084]

For the most part, you really don't get access to many useful enhancements from a 2 level splash, other than toughness and sprint boost, anything major I am missing? Any other enhancements you take from those 2 levels are usualy just because there is nothing else useful to take in your main class(es) and you need to spend another point to get to X points spent so you can take some other enhancement.
Sprint Boost
Haste Boost
(class) Str/Dex/Con/Wis/Cha/Int
Sneak Attack Accuracy
Sneak Attack Training
Skill Boost
Crossbow Damage
Improved Rune Arm Use
Toughness (class)
Improved Trap Sense
Power Attack
Extra Song
Inspired Damage
Lingering Song
Wand and Scroll Mastery
Extra Turning
Improved Empower/Maximize/Empower Healing/Quicken/Enlarge
Strategy (Stunning Blow/Trip/Sunder)
Animal Paths
Favored Damage
Faster Sneaking

[dkyle]

But most splashes are about the class abilities and the enhancements are gravy.

I'm not too concerned about splashes, but I do think effectively blocking their enhancements from being even remotely viable options is a negative to build customization, and I think, ultimately fewer tough decisions. The obvious choice of not spending one of your three trees on a two level splash means we don't get to make the non-obvious choices of whether to spend APs in a dead-end tree we'll never get PrE bonus ranks from.

My biggest concern is deep multiclassing. Those splits are almost always about PrEs, and I doubt that will change. If anything, I expect enhancements to get even more important, and feats and class features less important by comparison. Giving up not only the higher tier PrE of a primary class, but an entire third of the rest of the enhancements of the primary class, raises the bar significantly on how powerful a TierI has to be in order to be worth the costs. I'm not sure any current TierIs really fit the bill.

[Artos_Fabril]

You do realize that hard choices are actually a boon for diversity, right? If you set up a "general" tab with all the good enhancements, then you are contributing to cookie cutter sameness. The way to create diversity is to have a variety of useful things that each player can only have a portion of. If everyone takes 90% the same enhancements, that's not diversity.
You are confusing "basic" with "good". Sneak attack damage, sneaking (hide & MS), and trap skills are basic features of the rogue class (In the current SotG it's more like: SA Damage, UMD, more damage, with trap skills and sneaking tied for 6th or 10th place). If the Dev team can't come up with something more interesting for the PrEs than "more SA damage", "More trap skills", "increase dex" for the PrE trees, this whole plan is a failure. If only one fighter Tree got access to STR enhancements, or only one wizard Tree got access to INT enhancements, now you have a tree that's virtually mandatory, because you lose 1-2 points on all of your DCs and some other benefits by not taking it. That reduces diversity by locking up 2 out of 3 trees instead of one, compared to, say a tempest ranger who doesn't care that the dex enhancements are in the deepwood sniper tree.

There are only so many roles and spots in a party or raid, If a baseline rogue doesn't bring a baseline DPS capability to the table, why would you bring them in a group or on a raid? Especially now that artificers bring the same trap skills and massive versatility as class features, regardless of their enhancements.

So if certain classes are affected more strongly than others by the splitting of basic enhancements off into trees (which I still contend is an arbitrary decision without justification or benefit) it is a de facto nerf to those classes, compared to the classes whose abilities are already more compartmentalized.

This is the biggest balance difference between PnP and DDO: In PnP you make a group at the start of a campaign, and barring extraordinary circumstances you have the same group the whole time, or at the very least every player got to contribute to every adventure regardless of their build. In DDO, if a character is clearly inferior and doesn't bring a necessary unique ability, you don't bring that character. In PUGs, that largely means you don't bring that player at all.


For the most part, you really don't get access to many useful enhancements from a 2 level splash, other than toughness and sprint boost, anything major I am missing? Any other enhancements you take from those 2 levels are usualy just because there is nothing else useful to take in your main class(es) and you need to spend another point to get to X points spent so you can take some other enhancement.
Haste Boost, +1 stat increase, +1 to tactics or damage, or minor improvements to other basic class features.
But in general you're right, a 2 level splash is designed to get you class features, in the form or either granted or select-able feats and skill options.

[grodon9999]

Rather that wax poetically about hypothetical . . . let's see what we actually won't and won't be able to do under this proposed system. Let's see what builds are changed, and will those changes necessarily gimp a build.

We won't be able to do that without a LOT more detail that we have now. It's time to show us the full monte.

[Aashrym]

I'm not too concerned about splashes, but I do think effectively blocking their enhancements from being even remotely viable options is a negative to build customization, and I think, ultimately fewer tough decisions. The obvious choice of not spending one of your three trees on a two level splash means we don't get to make the non-obvious choices of whether to spend APs in a dead-end tree we'll never get PrE bonus ranks from.

My biggest concern is deep multiclassing. Those splits are almost always about PrEs, and I doubt that will change. If anything, I expect enhancements to get even more important, and feats and class features less important by comparison. Giving up not only the higher tier PrE of a primary class, but an entire third of the rest of the enhancements of the primary class, raises the bar significantly on how powerful a TierI has to be in order to be worth the costs. I'm not sure any current TierIs really fit the bill.

I think that is just going to turn into a choice on what race to take to even it out, tbh. Racial PrE combines total levels so deep splashes end up with the potential of 1 capstone PrE still and 2 other PrE trees. The end result is no build regardless of splashing, deep splashing, or pure classing is denied a capstone and the potential for a lot of choices in the other PrE trees. It limits some options but opens up higher level options previous unavailable in the enhancements.

Horc 12/6/2 split can still take ravager III and capstone, for example, and hit tier II in another PrE. This costs 41 AP plus the cost of opening ravager and 20 points spent for the tier II. That should leave a few more for some customization. Dropping the ravager capstone going tier III ravager frees 11 more AP for a tier I PrE in one class. A tier III, tier II, and tier I on a 12/6/2 split was very much impossible before and a possibility looking at the change. If the goal of the split was the PrE's that still looks possible to me.

No matter how we look at it every character is still limited to 3 trees. Multi-class at least get more choices in the trees available.

If Turbine does it right this is better for the deep splashes because in theory those higher level enhancements should be better than lower level enhancements from the other classes. That part intrigues me.

I can see a lot of builds losing something but expect what they gain to be worth more in the long run if I am understanding it after the clarifications.

[Artos_Fabril]

I think that is just going to turn into a choice on what race to take to even it out, tbh. Racial PrE combines total levels so deep splashes end up with the potential of 1 capstone PrE still and 2 other PrE trees. The end result is no build regardless of splashing, deep splashing, or pure classing is denied a capstone and the potential for a lot of choices in the other PrE trees. It limits some options but opens up higher level options previous unavailable in the enhancements.
Woops.. You're right. I mis-remembered Eladrins response to me in a PM. Here it is:

"A 2 level splash could replace all three of their trees with those from the splash class, but due to level restrictions on enhancements they'll probably be restricted to the bottom two rows of enhancements, and won't get the free ones. (Those require levels 3/6/9/12/15/18/20.)"
So no capstone for non-pure classes (unless racial PrEs offer capstones), no tier 3 PrE with fewer than 18 levels, etc.

Another possible option would be to shift abilities up or down in other trees, rather than remove them altogether. For instance:

Sneak Attack Training
Assassin: 5 ranks, at 1/3/6/10/15
Acrobat: 3 ranks, at 10/13/17 plus some low-tier enhancements for q-staves specifically.
Mechanic: 3 ranks, at 14/17/20 plus 2 ranks X-bow/repeater only at 3/7

A full mechanic/assassin would end up with even more SA than they could currently get, but wouldn't have many points to spend outside of those two trees. Eladrin mentioned something similar about assassin dex I and II existing alongside acrobat dex I and II.

[dkyle]

I think that is just going to turn into a choice on what race to take to even it out, tbh. Racial PrE combines total levels so deep splashes end up with the potential of 1 capstone PrE still and 2 other PrE trees.

And I don't like this, because it make racial choices obvious and inflexible.


Horc 12/6/2 split can still take ravager III and capstone, for example, and hit tier II in another PrE. This costs 41 AP plus the cost of opening ravager and 20 points spent for the tier II. That should leave a few more for some customization. Dropping the ravager capstone going tier III ravager frees 11 more AP for a tier I PrE in one class. A tier III, tier II, and tier I on a 12/6/2 split was very much impossible before and a possibility looking at the change. If the goal of the split was the PrE's that still looks possible to me.

Racial PrEs provide absolutely no benefit to 12/6/2 splits that 18/2 splits also don't get. It's backwards to look at that tier III racial PrE, and pretend it somehow encourages 12/6/2 splits. An 18/2 could have the same tier III racial PrE, plus possibly another Tier III class PrE, plus, perhaps, another tier I class PrE.


If Turbine does it right this is better for the deep splashes because in theory those higher level enhancements should be better than lower level enhancements from the other classes. That part intrigues me.

The more back-loaded PrEs get, the more deep-multiclasses become non-viable. Again, you're looking at it backwards. A deep multiclass gets less access to higher level enhancements. If high level enhancements are the best, it encourages 20 and 18/2 builds.


I can see a lot of builds losing something but expect what they gain to be worth more in the long run if I am understanding it after the clarifications.

My reading is, pure builds gain a ton, with little loss. Deep Multiclass builds gain the same benefits from racial PrE, but lose out severely due to the three-tree limit, for a net loss compared to pure builds.

I really see absolutely nothing about the new system that encourages deep multiclasses in comparison to pure or nearly pure builds, and many things to discourage it. We might see front-loaded PrEs that encourage deep multiclasses, but they would be even more desirable if we were keeping the current system.

[Aashrym]

So no capstone for non-pure classes (unless racial PrEs offer capstones), no tier 3 PrE with fewer than 18 levels, etc.

Racial PrE unlocks a class PrE tab and uses character level instead of class level. That was posted long ago in this thread. That would unlock full PrE and capstone. If it did not it would be a pointless feature.

[Artos_Fabril]

Racial PrE unlocks a class PrE tab and uses character level instead of class level. That was posted long ago in this thread. That would unlock full PrE and capstone. If it did not it would be a pointless feature.
I don't think you can legitimately argue that out-of-class access to tempest, SD, or assassin, even without the capstone, would be a pointless feature.

If it costs more than 9 points spent in race tab to unlock racial PrE, you absolutely lock out Capstone + tier 3, even if you only take one class, or import no trees from an 18/2 splash.

This really emphasizes the importance of race/class synergies. I don't know that's a good thing or a bad thing, but under this concept, it is very much a thing.


The more back-loaded PrEs get, the more deep-multiclasses become non-viable. *Again, you're looking at it backwards. *A deep multiclass gets less access to higher level enhancements. *If high level enhancements are the best, it encourages 20 and 18/2 builds.
An option that could encourage deep multiclassing would be to put more benefits in the 9 and 12 tiers: Do you stop at 11 ranger levels when you've got the full TWF chain so you can pick up a second PrE to the level 9 tier, or do you go to 12 for tempest II? Stop at 14 and pick up another tier 1 PrE in an offclass, or sacrifice that level 6 PrE for the benefits of a level 15 tier PrE?

[Aashrym]

And I don't like this, because it make racial choices obvious and inflexible.

Racial benefits tend to be obvious choices for builds now in some cases. Some people might not like the change but it does open up opportunities.


Racial PrEs provide absolutely no benefit to 12/6/2 splits that 18/2 splits also don't get. It's backwards to look at that tier III racial PrE, and pretend it somehow encourages 12/6/2 splits. An 18/2 could have the same tier III racial PrE, plus possibly another Tier III class PrE, plus, perhaps, another tier I class PrE.

I'm not saying encourages or discourages; I'm saying it opens up an option that was not previously there and I can see that making it good for some builds. The 18/2 would not have the same benefits, however. The 18/2 split provides for a racial PrE and 1 class PrE. Could be 2 tier III's possibly but not even 3 tier I's because of the level limitations. The multi-classes have more opportunities for actual PrE's.

How good they are remains to be seen.


The more back-loaded PrEs get, the more deep-multiclasses become non-viable. Again, you're looking at it backwards. A deep multiclass gets less access to higher level enhancements. If high level enhancements are the best, it encourages 20 and 18/2 builds.

I would agree they could. They have that issue now however as well. A 12/8/2 does not have access to any 13th+ level enhancements. The new system overcomes this with racial PrE's. This could place a huge stress on race but overlooking how important that becomes it still opens up those high level enhancements that would not otherwise be available.

If human can select from a wide variety then human might be the new race of choice in a lot of ways just for that reason.


My reading is, pure builds gain a ton, with little loss. Deep Multiclass builds gain the same benefits from racial PrE, but lose out severely due to the three-tree limit, for a net loss compared to pure builds.

Pure builds are risking losing the existing capstones. It looks like only 1 PrE will be carrying it even if it does remain in it's current form. That is a potential loss for some.

Pure builds might also be risking losing access to higher level enhancements in the PrE's within their own classes due to AP cost requirements within the specified skill tree. Spending 41 in one tree and 20-30 in a second tree doesn't leave a lot for the third tree. To hit the top row of enhancements we need 20 spent in either of the other 2 to hit that 5th row. That means by taking any capstone we are locking out the best enhancements available in 1 tree regardless, let alone developing them.

Pure builds have a 3 tree limit too. Not splashing locked out a lot of options. ;)


I really see absolutely nothing about the new system that encourages deep multiclasses in comparison to pure or nearly pure builds, and many things to discourage it. We might see front-loaded PrEs that encourage deep multiclasses, but they would be even more desirable if we were keeping the current system.

I think that is the key right there. What we will see will be because race will still open up higher enhancements. Those classes might not be worth the deep splash depending on what the PrE's do offer at what level. I can't really dispute that without seeing; I can only note what the racial PrE's look like they might open.

It's hard to say what is gained or lost yet because it's all still speculation. I can definitely see your concern on the deep splashes not getting higher tier enhancements but they don't get those now anyway.

I would also like to point out that isn't really different from what could happen introducing new PrE's and finishing them using the existing enhancement system. That would be just as likely to produce some higher level PrE enhancements that invalidate existing builds. That can't be avoided IMO. That would also be true of pure builds with the addition of more PrE's and capstones -- they would get more than the splashes. The tree system or not doesn't change that.

I don't think we can finish off all the PrE's and introduce more capstones without seeing some builds lose effectiveness in comparison no matter the change to the interface or not. I'm not about to advocate not finishing those off because of it unfortunately.

[Aashrym]

I don't think you can legitimately argue that out-of-class access to tempest, SD, or assassin, even without the capstone, would be a pointless feature.

If it costs more than 9 points spent in race tab to unlock racial PrE, you absolutely lock out Capstone + tier 3, even if you only take one class, or import no trees from an 18/2 splash.

If it costs 1 AP it's fine. A person can't use an arbitrary number to decide it will lock out the capstone to state that will be the case. My point on useless would be if it did not take character level into consideration instead of class level because that would limit the PrE to enhancements with no level requirements.

If it cost 9 points that still leaves 71 to apply 41 to the capstone, however, and 30 to other enhancement trees. It would need to cost 40 to lock out the capstone. If that were the case no one would take it. Ever. ;)

[dkyle]

Racial benefits tend to be obvious choices for builds now in some cases. Some people might not like the change but it does open up opportunities.

Racial choices are very rarely obvious currently. Certainly not to the degree Racial PrEs will be.

Once your Race determines your Racial PrE, and your Racial PrE counts more than your multiclass split, a certain Race will absolutely required for most builds. Only alternative option might be Human or Half-elf. Currently, most builds can work with most races. One might be generally favored, but in most cases, others have at least something to offer.

For example, I expect to see (outside of flavor builds) no Half-orc Barbarians, no Dwarven or WF Fighters, no Drow Rangers. Why? Because those race-class combos squander the Racial PrE. It would take absolutely massive racial benefits, aside from the PrE, to make those builds make sense.


I'm not saying encourages or discourages; I'm saying it opens up an option that was not previously there and I can see that making it good for some builds. The 18/2 would not have the same benefits, however. The 18/2 split provides for a racial PrE and 1 class PrE. Could be 2 tier III's possibly but not even 3 tier I's because of the level limitations. The multi-classes have more opportunities for actual PrE's.

18/2 allows for one racial PrE, and up to 2 class PrEs. Same as the multiclass. They're just from the same class. But they can go higher.

Again, it's possible that some combination of PrEs will make multiclassing worthwhile. But the system makes that much more unlikely than the system we have now. There are far greater inherent penalties to multiclassing. So based on what I've seen so far, I can only conclude that these changes are likely to reduce multiclassing.


I would agree they could. They have that issue now however as well. A 12/8/2 does not have access to any 13th+ level enhancements. The new system overcomes this with racial PrE's. This could place a huge stress on race but overlooking how important that becomes it still opens up those high level enhancements that would not otherwise be available.

Racial PrEs don't overcome that at all. Because the pure class gets it as well. The Racial PrE is not a net gain for either type of build, because both types of build gain equally (or at least, the 12/6/2 gains nothing the 18/2 doesn't).

I am not comparing 12/6/2 builds now to 12/6/2 builds in the future. Yes, I anticipate most will improve, relative to now. I expect huge power increases across the board for almost all builds, except the ones that are outright broken. But that's not a relevant comparison. People won't be choosing present 12/6/2 vs future 12/6/2. They'll be choosing between future 12/6/2 and future 18/2 or future pure 20. And for that comparison, racial PrEs simply do not favor the 12/6/2, because all of them get them. If anything, the 12/6/2 loses out, because the trees are so much more contested, so setting aside one for the Racial PrE is a greater opportunity cost.


Pure builds are risking losing the existing capstones. It looks like only 1 PrE will be carrying it even if it does remain in it's current form. That is a potential loss for some.

Again, the relevant comparison isn't current pure build vs future pure build. It's the various future builds against each other. The capstone is nothing but a benefit for pure builds.


Pure builds might also be risking losing access to higher level enhancements in the PrE's within their own classes due to AP cost requirements within the specified skill tree. Spending 41 in one tree and 20-30 in a second tree doesn't leave a lot for the third tree. To hit the top row of enhancements we need 20 spent in either of the other 2 to hit that 5th row. That means by taking any capstone we are locking out the best enhancements available in 1 tree regardless, let alone developing them.

Pure builds "risk" losing access to higher level enhancements.

Multiclass builds will be losing access to higher level enhancements.

Again, favor goes to pure builds. The option of taking or not taking the capstone is a benefit to pure builds, not a detriment.


It's hard to say what is gained or lost yet because it's all still speculation. I can definitely see your concern on the deep splashes not getting higher tier enhancements but they don't get those now anyway.

That's not my concern at all. Precisely because that's how it works now.

My concern is the cost of a tree to multiclass. Currently, going 12/6/2 instead of 18/2 costs the 13-17 level enhancements. In the future, going 12/6/2 will carry that same cost, plus an additional third of the enhancements from the primary class, while gaining the only the same amount of enhancements as currently. 12/6/2 will be strictly more costly than it would be with the current system, for the same amount of benefit. That's the problem.


I would also like to point out that isn't really different from what could happen introducing new PrE's and finishing them using the existing enhancement system.

There's a big difference between some specific PrEs discouraging some specific builds, and a system-wide, fundamental game design that will act to discourage all deep multiclassing.


I don't think we can finish off all the PrE's and introduce more capstones without seeing some builds lose effectiveness in comparison no matter the change to the interface or not. I'm not about to advocate not finishing those off because of it unfortunately.

Of course not.

That doesn't mean we should accept a system that is inherently designed to punish multiclassing more than it already is punished.

[Artos_Fabril]

If it costs 1 AP it's fine. A person can't use an arbitrary number to decide it will lock out the capstone to state that will be the case. My point on useless would be if it did not take character level into consideration instead of class level because that would limit the PrE to enhancements with no level requirements.

If it cost 9 points that still leaves 71 to apply 41 to the capstone, however, and 30 to other enhancement trees. It would need to cost 40 to lock out the capstone. If that were the case no one would take it. Ever. ;)
If it cost 10 (the first whole number more than 9) points, for instance if it was the granted ability (or PrE) of putting 10 points into the racial base tab, you would not be able to take the racial PrE to capstone and get another Tier 3 PrE.

That's not arbitrary, that's basic math. I was not claiming that it would be impossible as it will be finally implemented, I am raising a legitimate concern that should be examined when balance decisions are being made.


I'm not saying encourages or discourages; I'm saying it opens up an option that was not previously there and I can see that making it good for some builds. The 18/2 would not have the same benefits, however. The 18/2 split provides for a racial PrE and 1 class PrE. Could be 2 tier III's possibly but not even 3 tier I's because of the level limitations. The multi-classes have more opportunities for actual PrE's.
You've missed something here: A pure class has access to 3 PrEs + racial, the same as an 18/2 or a 12/6/2 or a 7/7/6 split. The difference is, a pure class has access to 3 PrEs from the same class, compared to the other splits being able to exchange trees from other classes.

So taking your earlier HOrc example:
A pure fighter HOrc could be a Ravager/Kensai/Stalwart/Purple Dragon Knight, with a capstone in any of the 4 PrEs, and 0-39(less the cost of unlocking ravager) points in each of the others.

An 18/2 fighter/monk HOrc could be Ravager/Kensai/Stalwart/PDK, but could only take the ravager capstone, and would have 0-39(less the unlock cost) points to spend in each of the others... unless he wanted a monk enhancement, in which case he'd have to give up an entire fighter tree.

That's still not not such a bad choice, he probably didn't want abilities from all 3 fighter trees, right? Or that monk enhancement was just that good that it was worth giving up a tree he'd have otherwise invested points in.


I would agree they could. They have that issue now however as well. A 12/8/2 does not have access to any 13th+ level enhancements. The new system overcomes this with racial PrE's. This could place a huge stress on race but overlooking how important that becomes it still opens up those high level enhancements that would not otherwise be available.
Now lets go to the 12/6/2 (12/8/2, by the way, is 22 levels. Gonna have to put that build on the back burner for a while. :D )
Now we're getting into real trade-offs. We've got our 12/6/2 HOrc. Just for fun, let's say Fighter/Barb/Rogue, I'll explain why shortly, but first: The Breakdown.
X points to unlock ravager
41 for capstone
20 points for tier 2 PrE (Stalwart)
10 points for tier 1 PrE (Occult Slayer)
0-9 points remaining? Maybe we're over-budget already! We still don't know the cost to unlock the racial PrE.
3 out of 4 trees locked in.

Our HOrc has dumped 41+ points into unlocking ravager and got some cool stuff out of it, but we want to be able to tank too, that's why we went Fighter and Stalwart. We've got the feats and lots of HP for tanking, but all the tanky Barb stuff is in the occult slayer tree, not to mention 1/3rd of the rage enhancements, so we've gone back and picked up 6 levels in a class that we already had for a racial PrE, so that we could actually use it.

Ravager Is a bonus tree, it just cost some AP to unlock it, We took rogue at first level (obviously!) and at second we grabbed barb and swapped out all of the rogue PrEs for the Barb ones, later on, we took some fighter levels swapped out Ravager for Kensai, since it fell behind what was being offered in the racial tree anyway. Glad that was an easy decision... wait back up a second, what do you mean Kensai?! Well there's not a lot of tanking going on at level 12, so we grabbed some extra DPS to level up. Our Evasion Kensai-FB Ravager really rocked for a while, but now we hit Amrath we'd really like some more HP, %damage reduction and the spell defense from OS, so we swap to the our (more or less) Final build.

Stalwart Defender at tier 2 for HP and % damage reduction.
Occult Slayer at tier 1 for spell defense benefits and rage synergy with ravager
Now what do we take for the 3rd PrE tree? Haste boost is in Kensai, but STR is in PDK, or we could grab the FB tree for more rage bonuses, because there isn't a general tab for barbs and 1/3rd of the rage enhancements are in ravager and OS each...

Well, the ravager capstone isn't the best for tanking, lets drop the top tier abilities to free up some AP, we still have ravager III for DPS... Man now that we've got some extra AP, I sure wish there was a general tab (even if it was just for the class i had the most levels in) so I could get haste boost and Fighter STR. Hmmm...

Well, I got a little carried away there, but anyway. You don't have more or fewer actual PrE options as a pure class than a multi-class, you get 3 each way. You just have to pick your 3 more carefully if you're a multiclass. In fact, being able to take more than one PrE from the same class swings things more in the direction of going pure. Especially if Kensai STR I, II stacks with Purple Dragon Knight STR I,II and Stalwart defender STR I,II.

P.S. Don't compare multi-class now to multi-class after this change, and then say it's more powerful than pure-class after the change, without comparing pure-class post change and multi-class post change against each other. Two of the relics of the current system is that the bulk of enhancements are not associated with a specific PrE, and most non-PrE enhancements are available at level 12 (haste boost 4, class stat +3, class toughness n). which encourages, or at least accommodates, splashing 6-8 levels for another class and another PrE.

[kingfisher]

Racial benefits tend to be obvious choices for builds now in some cases. Some people might not like the change but it does open up opportunities.

booya for wf rangers

[Riggs]

Racial choices are very rarely obvious currently. Certainly not to the degree Racial PrEs will be.

Once your Race determines your Racial PrE, and your Racial PrE counts more than your multiclass split, a certain Race will absolutely required for most builds. Only alternative option might be Human or Half-elf. Currently, most builds can work with most races. One might be generally favored, but in most cases, others have at least something to offer.

For example, I expect to see (outside of flavor builds) no Half-orc Barbarians, no Dwarven or WF Fighters, no Drow Rangers. Why? Because those race-class combos squander the Racial PrE. It would take absolutely massive racial benefits, aside from the PrE, to make those builds make sense.



18/2 allows for one racial PrE, and up to 2 class PrEs. Same as the multiclass. They're just from the same class. But they can go higher.

Again, it's possible that some combination of PrEs will make multiclassing worthwhile. But the system makes that much more unlikely than the system we have now. There are far greater inherent penalties to multiclassing. So based on what I've seen so far, I can only conclude that these changes are likely to reduce multiclassing.



Racial PrEs don't overcome that at all. Because the pure class gets it as well. The Racial PrE is not a net gain for either type of build, because both types of build gain equally (or at least, the 12/6/2 gains nothing the 18/2 doesn't).

I am not comparing 12/6/2 builds now to 12/6/2 builds in the future. Yes, I anticipate most will improve, relative to now. I expect huge power increases across the board for almost all builds, except the ones that are outright broken. But that's not a relevant comparison. People won't be choosing present 12/6/2 vs future 12/6/2. They'll be choosing between future 12/6/2 and future 18/2 or future pure 20. And for that comparison, racial PrEs simply do not favor the 12/6/2, because all of them get them. If anything, the 12/6/2 loses out, because the trees are so much more contested, so setting aside one for the Racial PrE is a greater opportunity cost.



Again, the relevant comparison isn't current pure build vs future pure build. It's the various future builds against each other. The capstone is nothing but a benefit for pure builds.



Pure builds "risk" losing access to higher level enhancements.

Multiclass builds will be losing access to higher level enhancements.

Again, favor goes to pure builds. The option of taking or not taking the capstone is a benefit to pure builds, not a detriment.



That's not my concern at all. Precisely because that's how it works now.

My concern is the cost of a tree to multiclass. Currently, going 12/6/2 instead of 18/2 costs the 13-17 level enhancements. In the future, going 12/6/2 will carry that same cost, plus an additional third of the enhancements from the primary class, while gaining the only the same amount of enhancements as currently. 12/6/2 will be strictly more costly than it would be with the current system, for the same amount of benefit. That's the problem.



There's a big difference between some specific PrEs discouraging some specific builds, and a system-wide, fundamental game design that will act to discourage all deep multiclassing.



Of course not.

That doesn't mean we should accept a system that is inherently designed to punish multiclassing more than it already is punished.

on the mark - esp in red.

[Riggs]

A little bit more thinking on the subject and a few thoughts;

People are very concerned with locking out access to key enhancements – like ONLY being able to take sneak on a certain pre, or str in a fighter etc. I don’t remember if it was players or devs that posted it – but I was under the impression that any general lines could count for any of the pres for that class – once you take them – you can decide which pre they will qualify you for, and then they are locked out for other pre lines.

So you could take ftr str for any line – but then you cant use ftr str as a pre-req for a second line at the same time – and also cannot, or should not be able to take ftr str twice or three times – that would be OP esp for wiz int, sorc cha etc. A monk that could get +9 to wis instead of +3 would have a lot more stuns going on for example. Triple stacking barbs would be stupid. A drow wiz/pm/arch/wildmage with 58 int? Silly.

I believe maybe the initial quote from Eladrin was they would stack, but the amount of people saying this is a bad idea should hopefully quell that stacking feature.

Other;

In general, in pnp – Prestige classes were not tied to class except at low levels. This concept should be kept. Most prestige classes were primarily multiclass builds. They were interesting, and gave a power boost to non-pure classes (most classes other than fighters already had a good reason to stay pure, moreso with capstones, so they didn’t need extra powers). Pure classes did, or should, get increasingly powerful with level, which left multiclasses much weaker at higher levels.

To repeat a point I made like 20 pages ago – racial lines should NOT allow, by themselves, tier 3 access.

The old idea of ‘favored classes’ gave a reduction of the xp penalty for multiclassing. A elf ftr/wiz could level up without the penalty, where a gnome or halfling would take an xp hit for that multiclass. Or back in 2nd edition – increased the levels you got multiclassing for specific favored classes – so an elf wiz/ftr would be a higher level wiz than a dwarf wiz/ftr, while the dwarf would probably be a higher level ftr. (I don’t remember the exact charts anymore).

How this should translate into DDO is to not allow tier 3 access – but make tier 3 access cheaper for favored lines/classes/prestige lines.

Take arcane archer for example. The only real requirement is supposed to be – be able to cast spells, and have bow feats. That could be a ftr/wiz, pure ranger, monk/ranger, rogue/wiz that spent feats on bows etc. You get to access tier 3 arcane archer without being level 18 in any particular class – being an elf, or being a ranger just makes it easier and/or cheaper.

Kensai for example – should not require being a fighter 18 to get tier 3. It should require a certain bab, some feats (which really makes it easier for fighters to get). Period. Thematically there is no reason a monk should not be able to take kensai with fists – regardless of race. The cost of AP would lock out other monk lines – but then if you just want to hit stuff with your fists, maybe you dont care if you can jade strike certain monsters.

The point above from dkyle re races making some class/race combos obsolete is a very real danger under what is being proposed. No more horc barbs? Well Halflings make better dpsers! A dwarf pally that has access to ftr defender AND pally defender lines? Maybe that becomes the must have tank? Or human pally with ftr defender line because they get amp and can access anything, with a splash of ravager thrown in? Under the current proposal race is going to go from flavor and minor benefits (except for WF which are not longer considered tanks), to certain races being required for certain roles.

While many will decry the ‘required’ idea – most people who think this is not the case spend less time at high level play than they think, and don’t realize what is going to happen to monster power levels, and don’t really get the idea that people that want to complete high level raids want to COMPLETE high level raids and content – not fail in a fun way.

So again – I suggest very strongly, that race should not open tier 3, and maybe not even tier 2 lines in and of themselves. They should make certain favored lines cheaper in cost, and maybe open up tier 1 – but that’s it.

What should open up lines is not pure classing – but meeting requirements in a cost of feats, bab, spellcasting, etc. A ravager 3 might be an 18 barb, or it might be a 6 barb/12 fighter. From the Sword and Fist book:

Requirements
To qualify to become a Ravager, a character must fulfill
all the following criteria.
Alignment: Chaotic evil, chaotic neutral, neutral evil.
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Feats: Dirty Fighting, Power Attack, Sunder.
Intimidate: 3 ranks.
Knowledge (religion): 3 ranks.
Wilderness Lore 4 ranks.

No where in that list is “Barbarian levels”. A wizard could become a ravager at level 10 if they wanted – they would just be a weaker one than a fighter or barbarian, and a weaker wizard too – but they would be a very focused melee build that could still work.

Ninja of the Cresent Moon, Requirements;
Base Attack Bonus: +6.
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Quick-Draw.
Move Silently 10 ranks. Hide 10 ranks.
Other: Evasion class feature

Again, a wide variety of classes can, and should be able to access this pre.

I realize that changing the current system away from the current ‘class required’ part would be even more work than what is being proposed – but with the idea of moving away from it already why not just go a bit further?

What should qualify you for tier 3 or a capstone should be; BAB 12 say, plus certain feats, 7d6 of sneak damage (which could make a Halfling dark monk get access to tier 3 assassin line), or being able to cast (x) level of spells.

However for casting prestige lines – it is harder to rationalize being able to be a full archmagi without full wiz levels…a 12 wiz/6 fighter /2 rogue really cannot justify being called an ‘archmage’. But maybe a 12 wizard/8 cleric could? Or 8 sorc (I know it’s a stupid build) – but just make the requirement ‘18 casting levels, of which at least 12 are wizard levels’. Not 18 wizard levels.

The requirements for each pre should be such that simply all races and classes cannot take any and all pre lines up to tier 3 – that would be silly. But with the ’41 for capstone’ already listed, and by simply making favored class/race combos somewhat cheaper to gain entry into a pre, and non-favored having to spend more – that would effectively limit the possible stacking OP silliness that is going to probably result from racial tier 3 access now.

The cost of racial lines? Maybe say they get up to level 6/tier 1 enhancement lines for their favored classes/pres. An elf fighter could access wizard, or ranger enhancements to level 6. A Halfling fighter or monk or whatever could still get level 6 rogue lines. But not level 12 or 18 or 20.

A race with the favored class – could access each tier for 2-3 points less say. So a Halfling rogue would get tier 1 at 7 points, not 10, tier 3 at 21 points, and capstone at either 32, or 29. Under this system, they wont be able to qualify for ANOTHER capstone on top – unless you want to allow taking 2 class pre lines – (which is currently not allowed). So a WF rogue could only get 1 rogue capstone, and tier 2 of something else, but a halfling rogue (or human) could get assassin AND acrobat say?

Personally I think multiple tier 3 lines should not be allowed regardless of cost. And cost not be made the barrier – but simply once you take a tier 3 line – you get that one and only tier 3 line, and capstone. You can have multiple tier 2’s and 1’s maybe, but only one tier 3/capstone period even if you have the points for it. In my above example of the Halfling dark monk – if they could qualify for Assassin, they can either take tier 3 Assassin, or tier 3 Ninja – not both. But they could be a Ninja 3/Assassin 2, or vice versa.

And this is assuming that the power levels of tier 1-2 for most lines are not so OP to make not taking multiple tier 2 lines gimp your character in relation to everyone else that did. If the AP are that powerful - the other things you should be able to put them into - the basic class/race lines should be actually useful enough that if you spend 20 points on Tempest 2, or spent the 20 points on just Fighter lines - you get 20 points worth of benefit - not one is crazy useful and the base enhancements are trash.

Anyway, its late and I am repeating myself.

[Aashrym]

Racial choices are very rarely obvious currently. Certainly not to the degree Racial PrEs will be.

Once your Race determines your Racial PrE, and your Racial PrE counts more than your multiclass split, a certain Race will absolutely required for most builds. Only alternative option might be Human or Half-elf. Currently, most builds can work with most races. One might be generally favored, but in most cases, others have at least something to offer.

For example, I expect to see (outside of flavor builds) no Half-orc Barbarians, no Dwarven or WF Fighters, no Drow Rangers. Why? Because those race-class combos squander the Racial PrE. It would take absolutely massive racial benefits, aside from the PrE, to make those builds make sense.

Racial choices open up PrE options but they would still be missing the base class abilities. It might not be that cut and dried. If a player makes a horc barbarian they don't need to spend the points to unlock 1 tree and can choose from 3 barbarian trees and have actual barbarian class abilities. Those barbarian class abilities are missing if he were to make a fighter with some ravager enhancements.

Splashing that barbarian means the horc can still have full ravager plus additional benefits added on from whatever he splashes, deep or not but with a 2nd barbarian tree like frenzied still available.


18/2 allows for one racial PrE, and up to 2 class PrEs. Same as the multiclass. They're just from the same class. But they can go higher.

Again, it's possible that some combination of PrEs will make multiclassing worthwhile. But the system makes that much more unlikely than the system we have now. There are far greater inherent penalties to multiclassing. So based on what I've seen so far, I can only conclude that these changes are likely to reduce multiclassing.

The class with the 2 levels will allow access to 3 potential skill trees to choose but I thought we had confirmation that there are also level limits attached to those PrE's and enhancements in the trees. 2 levels would not meet a whole lot. That leaves 1 race (with no inherent class abilities) and 1 class.

Going higher in 2 trees means almost completely ignoring that 3rd tree or racial enhancements and still giving up potentially a lot. Actually using all the trees even a bit would effectively prohibit 2 deep PrE's I would think.


Racial PrEs don't overcome that at all. Because the pure class gets it as well. The Racial PrE is not a net gain for either type of build, because both types of build gain equally (or at least, the 12/6/2 gains nothing the 18/2 doesn't).

Not having access to high tiers in the skill tree and a capstone or not having access to high tiers and a capstone. It is only possible to do that because of the racial PrE. Not having that restricts the options more.


I am not comparing 12/6/2 builds now to 12/6/2 builds in the future. Yes, I anticipate most will improve, relative to now. I expect huge power increases across the board for almost all builds, except the ones that are outright broken. But that's not a relevant comparison. People won't be choosing present 12/6/2 vs future 12/6/2. They'll be choosing between future 12/6/2 and future 18/2 or future pure 20. And for that comparison, racial PrEs simply do not favor the 12/6/2, because all of them get them. If anything, the 12/6/2 loses out, because the trees are so much more contested, so setting aside one for the Racial PrE is a greater opportunity cost.

A future 12/6/2, future 18/2, and future 20 all have the option to get a capstone or go heavy into one tree, and then spend point among 2 more trees. The 18/2 or 20 might have the option to go heavily into a second tree but that mean they are almost totally ignoring racial enhancements and that 3rd tree.

What it boils down to is choosing the class we want to focus on, choosing a race we want to get an enhancement tree for that will help the class, deciding what other enhancement trees will help with that, if those are in the class then we don't deep splash, if there are some that do look better than the trees we won't be able to afford in class we do splash for them.

That is still not really any different than the decisions we make now with the exception that deep splashes can provide higher level enhancements with a race unlock option. That is a benefit of the proposed change. Giving a deep splash higher tier options that would only be available to pure or small dips is a benefit.


Pure builds "risk" losing access to higher level enhancements.

Multiclass builds will be losing access to higher level enhancements.

They don't have higher level enhancements to lose. The change provides the potential to add higher level enhancements. The same option to take or not take the capstone will exist for multis too. That is not a benefit for pure classes if they can both have access to the same choice.


My concern is the cost of a tree to multiclass. Currently, going 12/6/2 instead of 18/2 costs the 13-17 level enhancements. In the future, going 12/6/2 will carry that same cost, plus an additional third of the enhancements from the primary class, while gaining the only the same amount of enhancements as currently. 12/6/2 will be strictly more costly than it would be with the current system, for the same amount of benefit. That's the problem.

You gain tree at the cost of a tree. It's even the choice of a tree. The cost of not multiclassing is only have 3 trees without that choice. Not only that, going heavily into 1 tree still prohibits going into all 3 so much. There is no effective difference in losing access to a set of enhancements over not being able to afford them in the first place.

So far it looks to me like focusing in any tree regardless of if it is a class tree or not could be removing existing class enhancement options as they get moved into various trees at various tiers.

Currenly you lose 13-17th enhancements but in the future that option can be removed with a racial PrE unlock. That advantage is limited but will exist where now it does not outside of arcane archer. That is full of potential.


That doesn't mean we should accept a system that is inherently designed to punish multiclassing more than it already is punished.

Here is the thing. I don't think the new system looks like it punishes multiclassing any more than the existing system would if we were to add more capstones, higher level enhancements, and complete PrE's. That lack of higher level enhancements would still exist.

[Aashrym]

on the mark - esp in red.

No, because taking the actual class also adds the actual class abilities and access to 2 more class trees. And frees up the unlock AP.

[Aashrym]

Now we're getting into real trade-offs. We've got our 12/6/2 HOrc. Just for fun, let's say Fighter/Barb/Rogue, I'll explain why shortly, but first: The Breakdown.
X points to unlock ravager
41 for capstone
20 points for tier 2 PrE (Stalwart)
10 points for tier 1 PrE (Occult Slayer)
0-9 points remaining? Maybe we're over-budget already! We still don't know the cost to unlock the racial PrE.
3 out of 4 trees locked in.

To make this short and sweet so I can go to sleep, how is that different than paying the AP for not being a deep splash utilizing the racial PrE?

41 for capstone, 20 for Pre II other class tree, 10 for Pre I on the 3rd class tree, 9 left over for anything else. That locks out the 3rd tree just as much as a multi.

[red_cardinal]

I don't care what they do now or how. To me it's the same old thing with a shiny new UI and cost changes to existing enhancements. I'd much rather see what I've been saying all the time in this thread and I guess players wanted to see for years:

- add unfinished prestiges,
- fix bugged abilities (Void 2, Sniper shot, ...),
- fix broken feats and enhancements,
- buff rarely used,
- add new interesting feats.


To me, the above impacts gameplay and multiclassing the most.
Lack of unfinished prestiges reduced multiclassing.
Bugged expensive ehnacements disappointed me when I got them.
Broken/unused/missing feats reduce interesting tactics.

[Morlen]

I'm pretty darn excited... There could be room for a lot of fun and viable custom builds.

One thing seems certain... I see a spike in Heart of Wood sales in the future. :rolleyes:

Question though: As people have mentioned, the racial PREs you have used as examples are the same as current class PREs. Would a part of this have to do with making them work with ToD rings?

[Akianna]

Now this question may have been asked already, and I did try to read the thread before posting, but before I knew this thread turned into the equivalent of being written in Greek for me. I was just curious, is this up on Llama land yet?

[Riggs]

I don't care what they do now or how. To me it's the same old thing with a shiny new UI and cost changes to existing enhancements....
I'd much rather see what I've been saying all the time in this thread and I guess players wanted to see for years:

- add unfinished prestiges,
- blah blah blah

Clearly you do not see what the changes will mean, or care. So why are you posting so much?

If you actually read more than this week's worth of dev tracker - you would know that Turbine has said [COLOR="Red"]repeatedly they are working on several updates at a time - like a year out. So when an update hits Lam it was not just done a month ago and they are all willing to change everything from player feedback - it was being worked on for a year, is basically 95% DONE, and very little changes until after it is released and complaints pile up. once in a while stuff gets changed to a greater degree - but usually not.

So the fact that this whole thing is even being considered for mid year means it has been on the books for 6 months. The fact that one the first day of posting this thread - Eladrin was already in here with projected changes for Tempest already said and done - subject to change, but already done. Madfloyd already has the mockup UI ready - on day 1.

The change is coming - whining and bellyaching about missing Pre lines also means you have not even read all the dev posts in THIS thread. Because that was addressed. So do yourself a favor - read more and post less - since you just said above you dont know and dont care what these changes actually mean.

[Riggs]

I'm pretty darn excited... There could be room for a lot of fun and viable custom builds.

One thing seems certain... I see a spike in Heart of Wood sales in the future. :rolleyes:

Question though: As people have mentioned, the racial PREs you have used as examples are the same as current class PREs. Would a part of this have to do with making them work with ToD rings?

I said a long time ago Tod rings should be de-coupled from prestige lines.

You find one of 6 rings, Str/Dex/Con etc.
You take 1 trophy + ring + crafting altar - you add the +1 exception stat of your choice.
You take say 3 more trophies, and add the prestige line of your choice.
You take 6 (or maybe still 9) trophies, and add whatever tier 2 GS bonus you want to that ring.

So you can make your Str +1 str ring a kensai ring, or a shintao ring, or palemaster if you want.

People will immediately jump on the fact that every melee will make a Shintao ring - because the set bonus is better than every other melee set bonus.

This only points to the fact that most of the Tod set bonuses are trash, and the stat and set bonuses are useless to 90% of the classes they are supposed to be for. Not that the mechanic is bad to craft them.

Alternatively - you loot a prestige ring. THEN you add whatever stats you want with crafting. But that doesnt change the fact that most of the sets are trash and people only want a couple out of the 30 or so.

[Riggs]

No, because taking the actual class also adds the actual class abilities and access to 2 more class trees. And frees up the unlock AP.

A barb doesnt get assassin lines. A halfling does. A horc barb doesnt get kensai, a human barb can.
A horc that can access ravager gains nothing unless the tier 3/capstone costs less than it would otherwise - making horc a useful race for a barb - but then we get OP silliness like double capstone horc barbs, double capstone elf arcanes, double capstone human or dwarf tanks - which is simply too stupidly overpowered to be allowed in the game.

[Riggs]

Now this question may have been asked already, and I did try to read the thread before posting, but before I knew this thread turned into the equivalent of being written in Greek for me. I was just curious, is this up on Llama land yet?

Read the dev tracker first.

1. because a dev answered that question already - and the tracker takes you right to their posts.

2. If it was on Lamannia - that would be in the dev tracker too - and you would already have your answer now no?

[red_cardinal]

Clearly you do not see what the changes will mean, or care. So why are you posting so much?


I don't care what they do and there is no way to influence them since they have a straight line ahead of them. After all, THEY ARE DESIGNERS and PROGRAMMERS.



If you actually read more than this week's worth of dev tracker - you would know that Turbine has said repeatedly they are working on several updates at a time - like a year out.
So the fact that this whole thing is even being considered for mid year means it has been on the books for 6 months. The fact that one the first day of posting this thread - Eladrin was already in here with projected changes for Tempest already said and done - subject to change, but already done. Madfloyd already has the mockup UI ready - on day 1.



I DID READ IT ALL, that's why I'm posting so much. Spending 6 months on this seems a lot, if not to much. They are only rearranging existing elements in the new UI - adjusting costs and prerequisites. Do you really think that they will make something totally new - unseen before in this game?



The change is coming - whining and bellyaching about missing Pre lines also means you have not even read all the dev posts in THIS thread. Because that was addressed. So do yourself a favor - read more and post less - since you just said above you dont know and dont care what these changes actually mean.

I don't care in a way it's my company or my game or that my job depends on it, but I did put myself in that position in theory which is why some of my posting is like that. If that angers you or somebody else, I'm fine with that. I'm a programmer myself. I'd never make a new UI like they did. I'd rather finish off what's missing and ajdust/fix what seems that it needs fixing/adjusting. That's my standpoint.

I won't quote myself, but what I outlined before in yellow is what the core of the problem is. UI itself is a different thing and doesn't matter to much.

[Auran82]

I don't care what they do and there is no way to influence them since they have a straight line ahead of them. After all, THEY ARE DESIGNERS and PROGRAMMERS.



I DID READ IT ALL, that's why I'm posting so much. Spending 6 months on this seems a lot, if not to much. They are only rearranging existing elements in the new UI - adjusting costs and prerequisites. Do you really think that they will make something totally new - unseen before in this game?



I don't care in a way it's my company or my game or that my job depends on it, but I did put myself in that position in theory which is why some of my posting is like that. If that angers you or somebody else, I'm fine with that. I'm a programmer myself. I'd never make a new UI like they did. I'd rather finish off what's missing and ajdust/fix what seems that it needs fixing/adjusting. That's my standpoint.

The red part more or less proves you have either not read it all, or you have not understood anything they have said.

[Riggs]

I don't care what they do and there is no way to influence them since they have a straight line ahead of them. After all, THEY ARE DESIGNERS and PROGRAMMERS.

Ha. Dont care, but keep asking to stop what they are doing? And...no way to influence them? No you really have no idea what goes on on this forum - you really dont.

I DID READ IT ALL, that's why I'm posting so much. Spending 6 months on this seems a lot, if not to much. They are only rearranging existing elements in the new UI - adjusting costs and prerequisites. Do you really think that they will make something totally new - unseen before in this game?

If you actually read the dev tracker - Madfloyd said that they want to finish all the unfinished lines as a PART of this change. So...yeah you say read it, but keep asking Turbine to finish the unfinished lines...which this will do..."Dont do what you are doing, but finish the lines!". If you are trying to say I, and Turbine, is wrong about the 6 month thing - then no - you have not spent a lot of time reading the dev tracker. Whether you read it or not - its still in there.

I don't care in a way it's my company or my game or that my job depends on it, but I did put myself in that position in theory which is why some of my posting is like that. If that angers you or somebody else, I'm fine with that. I'm a programmer myself. I'd never make a new UI like they did. I'd rather finish off what's missing and ajdust/fix what seems that it needs fixing/adjusting. That's my standpoint.

You must work for a very small company where you get to tell yourself your own planning schedule a year out and have no bosses to tell you a different plan. And have no marketing department that pushes for big splashy releases, not "2012! Year of the bug fix!"

And "Hey - lets plan a massive update - we need what? a month? two months to plan/design/write/test/debug/test again/announce/release on Lam/final debug? No problem - U13 in 2 months!"

yeah. sure.

[red_cardinal]

And "Hey - lets plan a massive update - we need what? a month? two months to plan/design/write/test/debug/test again/announce/release on Lam/final debug? No problem - U13 in 2 months!"

yeah. sure.

Yes, I am for one such update. That's my point.
U13 in 2 months

- bugfixes only,
- undone enhancements and prestiges only.

Period. And after that watch the Hears of wood sales go over the top.

[red_cardinal]

I do understand that this whole enhancement this is the vital part of the game and that it has to be looked at seriously and that a certain amount of time, money and manpower needs to be spent.

But my rants/sniveling/yakking/nerd-raging/begging/being-an-illogical-prick/whatever is directed to the point to make U13 not a adventure pack update, but only a bug fix and enhancement update and to deliver it as soon as possible. Nothing else.

How will execution/marketing plans/etc. change? I don't know.
What their next adventure pack/class/race will be - I can merely vote or suggest at "Suggestions&Ideas" forum.

I've been trying to show reasons to prove my point - in this thread and in others. It all appears to me that you hit me with a brick instead of helping me. I'm merely expressing here what I've seen in other threads - give us bugfixes, give us undone prestiges.

Is that to much or to little for one update?

[Riggs]

Quote:
If I do a Barbarian/Fighter Multi-class, would the Fighter and Barbarian Toughnesses stack with one another?

Probably. I'm trying to avoid having selections made in one tree lock out enhancements in another.


That was the one I remembered - and leading to all the stacking worries.

Taking class toughness, or intim, or int, or spell dc - should absolutely lock it from any other class duplicate enhancements.

No stacking. For the love of Eberron, please no more stacking.

[red_cardinal]

That was the one I remembered - and leading to all the stacking worries.

Taking class toughness, or intim, or int, or spell dc - should absolutely lock it from any other class duplicate enhancements.

No stacking. For the love of Eberron, please no more stacking.

Isn't this as it's working now? Ranger DEX I and Rogue DEX I - don't stack. Now they're pondering to make it stack.
Same goes for other class enhancements, not racial, which grant passive bonuses.

Changing this rule isn't something that should be considered. Rule should stay the same. Better would be to add tier III for all bard prestiges. (there I go again - :D)

[Sidewaysgts86]

Apologies if this has been mentioned and I merely missed it- There are after all 68 pages in here. If this has been mentioned before, think of this as merely a vote to support a previous notion.

Im liking the idea of the new skill tree overall, but obviously have some "concerns". My paladins build has a lot of enhancements from all over the board that im worried about being able to mimic (assuming id even WANT to) after this change has taken place. Tier 3 divine sacrifice, Tier 4 of Divine Might, Tier 4 extra smites, Exalted smites, etc.

Id LOVE it if this enhancement system had a page that was "General to your class(es)". Will paladins still be able to take extra Lay-On-Hands? DO i Have to spec heavily into one tree that I dont want simple for this enhancement line? I guess only time will tell.

[oradafu]

That was the one I remembered - and leading to all the stacking worries.

Taking class toughness, or intim, or int, or spell dc - should absolutely lock it from any other class duplicate enhancements.

No stacking. For the love of Eberron, please no more stacking.

Since all the general/generic enhancements are being folded into the one of the three prestige class trees, I think your worries about too much stacking might be misplaced. The reason I say that is the Rogue example that one of the Devs gave, where Dex from Assassin will stack with Dex from Acrobat. Currently, as a rogue, you can get up to Dex III. In the new system, I'm guessing that Rogue Dex III will be divided between the three prestige classes and stack. If you want all three of the Dex, you must choose from the three Rogue prestige trees. However, if you multiclass and have a Barbarian prestige class tree instead of one of the Rogue trees, then you can only gain two of the Dex but you gain the chance to pick one Barbarian Str.

[FengXian]

That was the one I remembered - and leading to all the stacking worries.

Taking class toughness, or intim, or int, or spell dc - should absolutely lock it from any other class duplicate enhancements.

No stacking. For the love of Eberron, please no more stacking.

I think one of the points of this change is a boost to the power of the builds you'll be able to make. If you can take 2 (or 3) PrE's of the same class I wouldn't be surprised if almost everything else stacked too.

[oradafu]

Apologies if this has been mentioned and I merely missed it- There are after all 68 pages in here. If this has been mentioned before, think of this as merely a vote to support a previous notion.

Im liking the idea of the new skill tree overall, but obviously have some "concerns". My paladins build has a lot of enhancements from all over the board that im worried about being able to mimic (assuming id even WANT to) after this change has taken place. Tier 3 divine sacrifice, Tier 4 of Divine Might, Tier 4 extra smites, Exalted smites, etc.

Id LOVE it if this enhancement system had a page that was "General to your class(es)". Will paladins still be able to take extra Lay-On-Hands? DO i Have to spec heavily into one tree that I dont want simple for this enhancement line? I guess only time will tell.

That last question is one of my concerns that hasn't really been answered without seeing the full system in place. From the way things have been presented so far, it seems that those general Paladin enhancements are going to be given to one particular prestige class that you must spend points into to receive them. But without seeing specific layouts, its hard to know what exactly is being planned.

[Sidewaysgts86]

That last question is one of my concerns that hasn't really been answered without seeing the full system in place. From the way things have been presented so far, it seems that those general Paladin enhancements are going to be given to one particular prestige class that you must spend points into to receive them. But without seeing specific layouts, its hard to know what exactly is being planned.

Another HUGE concern I have for this, is that a change like this might enforce more "general" (ie cookie cutter) builds. I loved how this game allowed you to easily blur the lines and really customize your char- its what this game did best and is why i love playing it so much.

[mystafyi]

Yes, I am for one such update. That's my point.
U13 in 2 months
- bugfixes only,
- undone enhancements and prestiges only.

U13 wont have enhancement or prestiges changes, since it is due out around the end of feb. I would say it will have the base weapon damage die changes, a new race and a small amount of new content.

all these changes to enhancements and added pre's wont be added till the late may/june update if they make it.

[TheDearLeader]

Looked at the mock-up, and read the Dev-Tracker chatter on the matter in general.

New Enhancements... could be great? Could be a disaster.

So far, I'm liking how most of it sounds. I'd love it if we could actually *hear* more about currently unavailable or incomplete PrEs, at least initial Developer thoughts for them. And, of course, knowing how our current PrEs that we know and love will change would be nice, as well. I've seen a decent amount of talk on the Ranger side, but I didn't read much about other classes/PrEs.

Increased Customization sounds *nice*. I'd like to think, for example, Knight of the Chalice could get stuff like Extra Smite, Divine Sacrifice, etc. and have it count for their PrE instead of the Spell Point Enhancements. I'd like to think that builds can fit a little *more* in, especially the non-casters. Not that I don't often wish my Water Savant/Pale Master had more AP...but who doesn't want "just a little more"?

One trap - Madfloyd said the n word. Nerf (what were you thinking?). This means someone won't like this change. Let's try and be careful with what we take away from players, yes? I hear things cried out as OP on these forums often, when they often have a good reason for being at the power level they are.

Conversely, filling out each and every PrE is going to be a waste of time - unless you make sure they're all good. And while I like where you Dev-like folks seem to be taking this, it's hard to create such a robust product without any mulligans. If you don't make Bard Tier III PrEs worth it, or improve on the current "Hunter" of the Dead, or make the other Favored Soul PrEs compare to AoV, etc etc., why put time into it? Which, again, is why I'd love to actually hear more of the down and dirty, no-code-yet ideas that are hatching on your ground floor.

Tell us more. Yes, each and every bit of this is subject to change. I know I'm not the only one that still wants to hear it.

I want to echo one last thing : Capstones - Make them amazing. Multiclassing often has perks that are completely outside of the "Enhancement" portion of the game (evasion for starters? :) ). Let those who stay pure have a quantifiable benefit.

[ormsbygore]

I haven't read the full thread yet, but I wanted to get this down before I forgot.

I haven't played a WF Melee toon as of yet, mainly because of Healing Amp dificulties I've seen playing throughout the game. I've also been waiting for the unleashing of WF Juggernaut, which was hinted at in here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166967


Prestige Enhancements planned over the next few modules are:

Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer, Ravager
Bard: Spellsinger, Virtuoso, Warchanter
Cleric: Exorcist of the Silver Flame, Radiant Servant, Warpriest
Favored Soul: Divine Avenger, Beacon of Hope, Angel of Vengeance
Fighter: Kensai, Purple Dragon Knight, Stalwart Defender
Monk: Henshin Mystic, Shintao Monk, Ninja Spy
Paladin: Defender of Siberys, Hunter of the Dead, Knight of the Chalice
Ranger: Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Tempest
Rogue: Assassin, Mechanic, Thief-Acrobat
Sorcerer: Acolyte of the Skin, Air Savant, Cold Savant, Earth Savant, Fire Savant
Wizard: Archmage, Pale Master, Wild Mage

Human: Cannith Dragonmark Heir, Deneith Dragonmark Heir, Orien Dragonmark Heir, Tharashk Dragonmark Heir
Dwarf: Kundarak Dragonmark Heir, Dwarven Defender [Counts as Fighter]
Elf: Arcane Archer [Counts as Ranger], Phiarlan Dragonmark Heir
Halfling: Jorasco Dragonmark Heir
Warforged: Warforged Juggernaut [Counts as Barbarian]
Drow: Scorpion Wraith [Counts as Rogue]

I know it's an old post, and that almost everything a Dev says is subject to some form of disclaimer or another. But this is Eberron, and replacing Juggernaut with Stalwart Defender as the Warforged racial PrE, is kinda saddening...

A while back I posted my version of what I thought the Juggernaut should look like under the current Enhancement system, here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=290889. I have edited the post with an updated version of my idea, as to not convelute this topic with a large post about the Warforged Juggernaut.

As for the other races of DDO...I base my opinion of the ideal PrE, upon the Favored Class of each race from PnP.

Favored Class, taken from PnP 3.5 Books
Dwarf: Fighter
Warforged: Fighter
Halfling: Rogue
Half-Orc: Barbarian
Elf: Wizard
Drow: Wizard, Cleric
Human: Any
Half-Elf: Any


I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Dwarven Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender --> Juggernaut (Considered a Fighter PrE not Barbarian)
Halfling: Assassin (Assassin is a better PrE, but Theif Acrobat fits better, imo)
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer --> or Archmage
Drow: Tempest --> Pale Master or Radiant Servant
Human: Pick one. --> Kensi, Virtuoso, or Elemental Savant
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf --> Arcane Archer, Archmage, Kensi, Virtuoso, or Elemental Savant

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)
...snip...

Edit in yellow. Coments below

Dwarf: Perfict Choise, just spelled wrong...fixed it...hehe
Warforged: Right class, but missing the eberron flair.
Halfling: Fine choise, but I'd go with TA for flavor.
Half-Orc: Perfict!
Elf: Fitting, but I think the extra option of Archmage will bring more attention to the underutilized Elf(maybe...)
Drow: Way off, for melee balance purposes maybe...but if that's the case Assassin fits the Drow better, imo.
Human: Fitting...I think I've slimmed the choises down to the few that "say" Human the most, as far as flexability or boringness...
Half-Elf: Fitting...I just applied my Human and Elf responses to Half-Elf(but maybe give the Half-Elf a choise based on their Dilettante)


Well...after a few hours of brainstorming(mostly on the Juggernaut in my linked post)....there's my 2CP.
~Nim

[orakio]

I think they purposely avoided the caster PrE's for racial PrE's due to the overall power of arcane/divine casters compared to melee on live. The dev's also mentioned that not all PrE's will necessarily be available to human or halfelf in the last part of that second post you quoted.

Juggernaut would be fun but with its focus on charging (not in game really) and problems with being healed by divines it also would cause a lot of issues that they are trying to avoid. Also unlike all of the other racial PrE's it isn't a currently planned PrE for any of the classes.

[Darkrok]

So no capstone for non-pure classes (unless racial PrEs offer capstones), no tier 3 PrE with fewer than 18 levels, etc.

Another possible option would be to shift abilities up or down in other trees, rather than remove them altogether. For instance:

Sneak Attack Training
Assassin: 5 ranks, at 1/3/6/10/15
Acrobat: 3 ranks, at 10/13/17 plus some low-tier enhancements for q-staves specifically.
Mechanic: 3 ranks, at 14/17/20 plus 2 ranks X-bow/repeater only at 3/7

A full mechanic/assassin would end up with even more SA than they could currently get, but wouldn't have many points to spend outside of those two trees. Eladrin mentioned something similar about assassin dex I and II existing alongside acrobat dex I and II.

I could get behind an idea like this as well. It keeps the stacking but does so in a way that's not likely to cause any balance issues.

[grodon9999]

I think they purposely avoided the caster PrE's for racial PrE's due to the overall power of arcane/divine casters compared to melee on live. The dev's also mentioned that not all PrE's will necessarily be available to human or halfelf in the last part of that second post you quoted.

Juggernaut would be fun but with its focus on charging (not in game really) and problems with being healed by divines it also would cause a lot of issues that they are trying to avoid. Also unlike all of the other racial PrE's it isn't a currently planned PrE for any of the classes.

Casters do not need ANYTHING to make them more powerful.

Juggernauts would be fun for 5 minutes until Arcanes had to be used to hjeal and wouldn't bother.

[dkyle]

Racial choices open up PrE options but they would still be missing the base class abilities.

They'll have one third of the base class abilities.


If a player makes a horc barbarian they don't need to spend the points to unlock 1 tree and can choose from 3 barbarian trees and have actual barbarian class abilities. Those barbarian class abilities are missing if he were to make a fighter with some ravager enhancements.

The only situation where a Horc barbarian makes sense is:

1) The Horc race has outstanding synergy with the Barbarian class. Far more than currently.
2) Every Barbarian tree is fully desirable to the Barbarian, and no Racial PrE is more desirable than any of them

That's a pretty darn slim set of circumstances, that I doubt we'll see. I expect Occult Slayer to be the weak link for most DPS-barbs, and for Tempest, at the very least, to be too good to pass up.


Splashing that barbarian means the horc can still have full ravager plus additional benefits added on from whatever he splashes, deep or not but with a 2nd barbarian tree like frenzied still available.

Spending a tree on a 2-level splash will almost never be a good idea.


The class with the 2 levels will allow access to 3 potential skill trees to choose but I thought we had confirmation that there are also level limits attached to those PrE's and enhancements in the trees. 2 levels would not meet a whole lot. That leaves 1 race (with no inherent class abilities) and 1 class.

I don't understand what you're saying here. If you're saying that taking a tree from a 2-level splash is a bad idea, then I agree. But I don't think that's what you're saying.


Going higher in 2 trees means almost completely ignoring that 3rd tree or racial enhancements and still giving up potentially a lot. Actually using all the trees even a bit would effectively prohibit 2 deep PrE's I would think.

Capstone + TierIII, TierIII + TierIII + TierI, TierIII + TierII + TierII are all possible on Pure builds, assuming the Racial overhead is 9 or less for the first one, 10 or less for the others.

For 12/6/2 multiclass builds, Capstone + TierII + TierI is basically the only best choice, using the Race plus a PrE from the level 12 class, and a PrE from the level 6 class. Dropping the Capstone to TierIII or TierII allows for no increase to the others.


Not having access to high tiers in the skill tree and a capstone or not having access to high tiers and a capstone. It is only possible to do that because of the racial PrE. Not having that restricts the options more.

Huh? I don't understand what you're saying here. What's the difference between "high tiers in the skill tree" and "high tiers" in that first sentence? They seem the same to me, but that makes both sides of the "or" say exactly the same thing.


A future 12/6/2, future 18/2, and future 20 all have the option to get a capstone or go heavy into one tree, and then spend point among 2 more trees. The 18/2 or 20 might have the option to go heavily into a second tree but that mean they are almost totally ignoring racial enhancements and that 3rd tree.

OK, but they have the option of doing that. The deep multiclass does not have that option. This is a win for pure builds.


That is still not really any different than the decisions we make now with the exception that deep splashes can provide higher level enhancements with a race unlock option. That is a benefit of the proposed change. Giving a deep splash higher tier options that would only be available to pure or small dips is a benefit.

It's a benefit that in no way favors deep multiclassing. For any comparison you do between 18/2 and 12/6/2 builds, they can both get the same Racial PrE. When both things get the same things, that cancels out. The only difference is the multiclass split, and the PrEs that split enables. My belief is that the new system heavily penalizes the 12/6/2 vs the 18/2, much moreso than the current system. To illustrate:

Current system:
12/6/2 gains: Access to an additional TierI PrE, the full set of level 6 enhancements from the secondary class, the level 6 class features of the secondary class.
12/6/2 loses: The TierIII PrE of the primary class, the 13-17 enhancements and class features of the primary class

New system:
12/6/2 gains: Access to a different (not additional) TierI PrE, a subset of the level 6 enhancements from the secondary class, the level 6 class features of the secondary class.
12/6/2 loses: The TierIII PrE of the primary class, all 13-17 enhancements and class features of the primary class, one third of the level 1-12 enhancements of the primary class.

Under the new system, the 12/6/2 gains strictly less than under the current system, while losing strictly more. This is inherent to all possible PrE combinations.

Now, might some specific PrEs be so outstanding at TierI and lackluster at TierIII that it still makes sense to do the multiclass? Sure. But that would be a case of some specific PrEs overcoming the natural penalties incorporated into the system for multiclassing. That doesn't mean those penalties don't exist, and that more multiclassing would be viable without them.

By analogy, suppose the NFL decides to reduce the space between the the field goal verticals by half. Given this info, and this info alone, what would your prediction be on field goal success rate? On average distance of attempts? I would think the obvious answer would be: a significant reduction to both. Now, is it possible that some amazing star kicker could emerge that has a success rate against the new verticals higher than anyone else did against the old verticals? Of course, but that doesn't change that the narrower verticals act to suppress field goal success and attempts.


You gain tree at the cost of a tree.

You gain a lower level tree at the cost of giving up a higher level tree, and giving up the highest levels on your primary class's tree. It's unlikely to be an even-or-better swap. Could it be? Sure. But there's a lot for that TierI to overcome to be worthwhile. More so than currently.


Here is the thing. I don't think the new system looks like it punishes multiclassing any more than the existing system would if we were to add more capstones, higher level enhancements, and complete PrE's. That lack of higher level enhancements would still exist.

And under the new system, that same lack of higher level enhancements exists, plus lack of a third of the primary class's remaining enhancements. The penalty is strictly greater. How is that not punishing multiclassing more?

[Cyr]

I PM'd MadFloyd this question, since I thought it would get buried, and he just PM'd back confirmation that #1 is indeed correct. We will have access to 3 PrE trees only, including the Racial PrE you can buy from the Racial tree.

I was kind of hoping the answer would be 2 or 3, but I'm glad to know exactly what it is we should be discussing.

Oh wow. I was hoping that this was a misunderstanding and the total tabs became five...

That just kicks multi-class builds in the junk even harder then. There really is an overwhelming incentive to go 18-20 then in almost every build I can think and with the stacking for similar benefits even more reason to make sure that the builds are built to one purpose (ie not tank plus dps).

[grodon9999]

Question if anyone figured this out regarding splashing . . .

Would a 1 or 2 levels of rogue toon be able to take haste boost 1 or would that be locked out?

would a two splash be able to get that one stat-point?

[die]

U13 wont have enhancement or prestiges changes, since it is due out around the end of feb. I would say it will have the base weapon damage die changes, a new race and a small amount of new content.

all these changes to enhancements and added pre's wont be added till the late may/june update if they make it.

actually back in this post they said they wont release this till "mid year' that sounds like summer too me

[Zaodon]

We're still figuring this stuff out. If you have opinions on which way to go, let us know!

If the Enhancement is just class-based (and not PRE-related), why not stick it in all 3 PRE trees?

[dkyle]

with the stacking for similar benefits even more reason to make sure that the builds are built to one purpose (ie not tank plus dps).

Yeah, I'm especially concerned about Divines. Currently, Clerics and FvS can be top-of-the-line Raid healers with very little build focus on it. If all the healing enhancements get shunted into a single Tree, then in order to be good healers, they'll have to spend one of their tree picks on that tree. And if Healing Racial PrEs are available, there'll be a lot of pressure to drop a non-Healing-focused Class PrE to pick it up. We could quickly reach the point of "healbot or GTFO" for Clerics and FvS in the highest level Raids. Not just "you'll play like a healbot for the tank during this Raid", but "you must be built as a healbot, so get used to that role at all times".

[dkyle]

Question if anyone figured this out regarding splashing . . .

Would a 1 or 2 levels of rogue toon be able to take haste boost 1 or would that be locked out?

would a two splash be able to get that one stat-point?

You would have to swap one of your primary class's trees out for the Rogue tree (most likely Acrobat) to pick it up. I have serious doubts that swapping out a level 18 or 19 deep tree will ever be worth what you get from a level 1 or 2 deep tree.

I did an example (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4251129#post4251129) earlier with my Bard. Thanks to her two splashes, she actually pulls from enhancements that are likely to be split into 8 different trees. Given that she has to take the Warchanter tree, she's probably going to want to keep the Virtuoso tree (for song enhancements), and I'd be daft to forgo a Racial PrE, those splash enhancements aren't even worth considering.

[Niab]

I hate being forced to take useless AP .

Sometimes there are none you want or need listed because of prereqs but you still need to spend points on "something".

[grodon9999]

You would have to swap one of your primary class's trees out for the Rogue tree (most likely Acrobat) to pick it up. I have serious doubts that swapping out a level 18 or 19 deep tree will ever be worth what you get from a level 1 or 2 deep tree.

Haste Boost 1 on a class without this boost is THAT GOOD.

it's silly that all ENH of a class need to be tied to a PRE, I hope that's not what we see when this goes live.

[dkyle]

it's silly that all ENH of a class need to be tied to a PRE, I hope that's not what we see when this goes live.

To be honest, I don't mind it, in and of itself. We just need to get past the current notion of a PrE as a very specific specialization, and look at them as broad aspects representative of what the class is about. PrEs have never really been "special", because everyone takes them, anyway.

The real reason the lack of general class trees is a problem is the three-tree limit, and that limit is downright disastrous for deep multiclasses. Get rid of it for their sake, and splashes get their handfuls of enhancements back as well.

[grodon9999]

The real reason the lack of general class trees is a problem is the three-tree limit, and that limit is downright disastrous for deep multiclasses. Get rid of it for their sake, and splashes get their handfuls of enhancements back as well.

So say you were a horc fighter 12/ranger 6/rogue 2 (note very hypothetical as my guildie has one of these . . .)

Tree 1: Kensai II
Tree 2: Tempest I
Treer 3: Ravager III (racial)

Assuming you have all the APs . . . you can do this? just won't be able to put any APs into any of his rogue stuff?

[honkuimushi]

That was the one I remembered - and leading to all the stacking worries.

Taking class toughness, or intim, or int, or spell dc - should absolutely lock it from any other class duplicate enhancements.

No stacking. For the love of Eberron, please no more stacking.

I'm a bit worried about this as well, but there are ways to make it work. The key is to make it so that a character like a Fighter / Barbarian gets only as many Toughness enhancements as a Pure Fighter or a Pure Barbarian. This might be done by a single line that appears in multiple tabs or perhaps spreading the enhancements throughout all 20 levels. So taking 12 Fighter levels gives you acess to 3/5 (or whatever) Toughness enhancements and level 8 Barbarian gives you 2/5. A level 20 Barbarian or level 20 Fighter would both get 5 enhancements in their tab.


Ability scores would seem to be tougher. I remember the old system where a 10th level Rogue could get +2 or 3 to Dex and a 10th level Ranger could get +2 or 3 to Dex, but a level 6 Ranger/ 4 Rogue character would be limited to +1 Dex. (Though I doubt I'm remembering the numbers correctly. ) It's not as bad now and the ability lines are less powerful, but characters that have 2 classes with the same granted stat can only take one line and that slows their advancement in that line. Making it so that your combined levels count for unlocking stat modifiers would be a nice boost to multiclassed characters. The trick would be in coding this and finding the right place for these enhancements.

[Cyr]

So say you were a horc fighter 12/ranger 6/rogue 2 (note very hypothetical as my guildie has one of these . . .)

Tree 1: Kensai II
Tree 2: Tempest I
Treer 3: Ravager III (racial)

Assuming you have all the APs . . . you can do this? just won't be able to put any APs into any of his rogue stuff?

Yes, assuming that the racial cost to get ravager unlocked is 20 AP or less (can't imagine it is that expensive).

[Avidus]

The locking of three total trees is a bit disappointing to me...

I was hoping for 1 racial tree, 1 Class tree with a dropdown selection for multiclass characters and the last tree being for all the PrE's selectable via dropdown. This way you only see 3 trees at a time but could potentially have access to 13 trees on a 3 class build (1 race, 3 class and 9 PrE). This way splashes still can get the benefit of the class without locking in a tree.

The 3 tree total limit seems like 18/2 or pure is the way to go for racial tree plus main PrE plus splash. I guess we'll really have to wait and see but it is becoming more and more like Underwater Combat is coming! and Half-elves are our most beautiful race yet! Without more details this is the way I feel about the upcoming change now.

Lets temper the excitement over finally finishing the PrE's and cleaning up the enhancement UI with all of the things that we might not like about this new system. Will three steps forwards for 2 (or more) steps back be acceptable?

Caution and patience must be counseled here.

[Riggs]

More thoughts about divorcing class from the prestige lines.

Make a different, and more appropriate set of prerequisites for each pre line. Skills for skill heavy classes like rogue, feats for melee pre lines, and metamagics or casting levels for arcane/divines. For example;

Assassin 3 - requires 12 ranks in hide/move silent (making it impossible for a non-rogue to get as cross class), plus say 5d6 sneak damage.

How could a halfling get this? Make certain skills class skills for racial favored skills.

So halflings get sneak, jump, tumble, balance as class skills regardless of class. Halflings get sneak damage - each tier would count as 1d6 for a prerequisite.

So a rogue could qualify as Assassin without spending AP on these things, or a Halfling could as a different class if they spent a bunch of AP on sneak/sneak damage.

Or as a human fighter - say humans can choose any 3 skills (not umd) as class skills, but they dont get sneak - so a human would have to take at least 9 levels of rogue, and the skills, to get the line - but they would not need 18 levels of rogue as would be now - so they could be a 9 rogue/11 ftr or 9/11 wiz, or 9/11 cleric if they wanted. There is no reason why a part wizard or cleric should not be able to try assassinating should there?

Acrobat 3 same thing, requirement 12 ranks in jump, tumble, balance - easy for a rogue, hard for anyone else.

Each pre would/should have a set of prerequisites that make it easy for the main class to get it, and possible, but harder and costlier - for a different class or multiclass to take it.

Kensai 3 - need say 4 feats, weapon focus/specialization, greater both, and a bab of (12-15). Easy for a fighter to take, much harder for any other class, except maybe monk.

However there is also no reason logically for the old pnp 'fighters only can take weapon specialization' - that is old thinking for an old balance that no longer exists - esp not in DDO. There is no reason why a wizard that blows 4 feats cannot be better with a sword than a wizard that focuses on being a wizard. No one in their right mind is going to argue a wizard with +2 to hit and +4 damage is an OP melee.

For casting classes, it makes more sense to stay pure - there is no way around an Archmage needing to be able to cast level 9 arcane spells, and be a wizard - as it is the antithesis of the lack of versatility a Sorc has. So archmage needs 18 wiz levels...no way around it.

But say there are three lines, make 1 casting pre class specific, the other two possible for another class to take. So you could have a Sorcerer PM - it just takes at least 3 feats say, so much harder to give up other feats on a feat starved class, but easy for a wiz.

Likewise, make one sorc line - like dragonblood, sorc specific, but why not an earth savant wizard?

For barbs, and rangers, given the lack of outdoor skills - a min level 6 in the class seems reasonable - but 18 levels of any melee pre really should not require pure classes. Or at most 12 levels. A fighter 12/6/2 or 12/8 anything else should be able to qualify for Kensai or SD 3. 12 barb/8 whatever could still be a FB or Ravager.

Divine lines would follow the same pattern as arcanes. One pure, two possible to mix from other classes. Warpriest would be the perfect example of not needing 18 cleric levels to qualify for tier 3.

The other bonus from this would be the concept of racial class skills - opening up more options even without going into pre lines. A sneaky halfling cleric, a dwarf with search and spot and disable device - and no rogue levels, humans pick any 3 etc.

People would probably like this option better than simply having 3 pure class pre lines I think.

[Cyr]

Yeah, I'm especially concerned about Divines. Currently, Clerics and FvS can be top-of-the-line Raid healers with very little build focus on it. If all the healing enhancements get shunted into a single Tree, then in order to be good healers, they'll have to spend one of their tree picks on that tree. And if Healing Racial PrEs are available, there'll be a lot of pressure to drop a non-Healing-focused Class PrE to pick it up. We could quickly reach the point of "healbot or GTFO" for Clerics and FvS in the highest level Raids. Not just "you'll play like a healbot for the tank during this Raid", but "you must be built as a healbot, so get used to that role at all times".

I am thinking more along the lines of what happened when the toughness enhancements were released...every toon suddenly got a large percentage increase in their hit points, but in this case only on the specialist toons.

Imagine toughness enhancements (with a flat cost because Eladrin likes flat costs) across three PrE trees and a racial tree with 2-4 steps in each tree (to match current game) with all of them stacking. That would be alot of extra hit points for our tank toons without even thinking about stacking con enhancements or defender stances.

The power creep potential here is just enormous and really comes in a manner which could lead to even more refined toons having much larger comparative stats then others (hit points/dr/dps/dcs/spell damage/....)

[Gulain]

Yeah, I'm especially concerned about Divines. Currently, Clerics and FvS can be top-of-the-line Raid healers with very little build focus on it. If all the healing enhancements get shunted into a single Tree, then in order to be good healers, they'll have to spend one of their tree picks on that tree. And if Healing Racial PrEs are available, there'll be a lot of pressure to drop a non-Healing-focused Class PrE to pick it up. We could quickly reach the point of "healbot or GTFO" for Clerics and FvS in the highest level Raids. Not just "you'll play like a healbot for the tank during this Raid", but "you must be built as a healbot, so get used to that role at all times".

I can see that you would be concerned about the "healbot or GTFO" however I don't see why all FvS and Clerics wouldn't be able to take the full heal line + another full prestige line that lets them play in their own style?

In your own words in a previous post a pure (or 18/2) should be able to get:
Tier3 + Tier3 + Tier1
or
Tier3 + Tier2 + Tier2.

So Full Heal + Offensive style of choice + minor points in other type for first situation. Or Full Heal + Moderate Boosts to both other play styles
Or Full Boost to other playstyle, moderate heal boost, moderate other playstyle boost (similar to what you see out of AoV FvS now).

Any healer with less than 18/2 already pays for their versatility now in their healing output/selection as it is (all the Clonks out there) so I don't see a status quo change there. If anything FvS and Clerics are getting more opportunity to play they want to now while still having the solid healing required for endgame.

edit: As opposed to making another post with my viewpoint on this entire thread I'll just append it here...

I'm very excited to hear about the plans for all of this, and while I believe that there will still be weak links among all the classes I really think that the flushed out PREs will lead to much more playstyle choices for EVERY class. We'll have to wait and see where things stand and it is a near certainty that some current builds will be broken. However, all in all it should be a rather positive change that will address some major concerns this community has had for years.

I do generally think that 12/6/2 builds will fall off a little bit from where they are now. As others have pointed out there will be a limit to the total PRE tiers that they can get now compared to full pure builds of a class. However, I find that an acceptable cost considering that generally deep multiclasses are also getting major class features added in as well in doing so. Bonus feats, evasion, sneak attack dice, class skills are all still major reasons for these deeper splits. Being able to take advantage of multiple new racial PREs also really helps flush them out and will make these builds still extremely viable (if no longer necessarily the go-to builds that some of them are now).

These splits will generally still be best on classes that generally have trees that have very different purposes that a character may not be designed to exploit. Instead they can multi-class to other classes to absorb more major benefits. {specifically talking about tempest rangers, fighters, paladins}.

[dkyle]

I had CC'd Eladrin on my PM to MadFloyd yesterday, and I just got this back, with some interesting new info:


#1 is what we're currently looking at. 1 Racial tree, 3 Selectable trees. There are various ways to add trees to your list of selectable ones. (Take a level in a class being the easiest one, the racial unlock being another, and with this system we've got the tech to theoretically do things like favor or feat based unlocks as well.)

Now, I wouldn't read too much into the theoretical tech. I'm sure there are lots of theoretically possible things in the game that aren't used. But the notion of a favor-based PrE is... interesting. I'm not sure how to feel about that. I think my instinct is that granting a PrE competitive with Racial/Class PrEs would be way too much for a favor reward, and that if it isn't competitive, it'll just be a waste of dev time to put in.

EDIT: for reference, here is the "#1" option I sent him:


1. A Racial tree, plus 3 Class PrEs, one of which might be swapped out for the Racial PrE purchased by AP on the Racial tree.

[Riggs]

Yeah, I'm especially concerned about Divines. Currently, Clerics and FvS can be top-of-the-line Raid healers with very little build focus on it. If all the healing enhancements get shunted into a single Tree, then in order to be good healers, they'll have to spend one of their tree picks on that tree. And if Healing Racial PrEs are available, there'll be a lot of pressure to drop a non-Healing-focused Class PrE to pick it up. We could quickly reach the point of "healbot or GTFO" for Clerics and FvS in the highest level Raids. Not just "you'll play like a healbot for the tank during this Raid", but "you must be built as a healbot, so get used to that role at all times".

That is a huge argument for the idea that lines not be restricted to one prestige tree.

Healing would be/should be one of the 'general' cleric enhancements - and qualify for any or all of the three theoretical possibilities. Otherwise - yeah builds become way more cookie cutter - and in the case of clerics - super limited.

[dkyle]

I can see that you would be concerned about the "healbot or GTFO" however I don't see why all FvS and Clerics wouldn't be able to take the full heal line + another full prestige line that lets them play in their own style?

In your own words in a previous post a pure (or 18/2) should be able to get:
Tier3 + Tier3 + Tier1
or
Tier3 + Tier2 + Tier2.

So Full Heal + Offensive style of choice + minor points in other type for first situation. Or Full Heal + Moderate Boosts to both other play styles
Or Full Boost to other playstyle, moderate heal boost, moderate other playstyle boost (similar to what you see out of AoV FvS now).

But if we can stack together Healing PrEs, then the "Healbot" with two, or even three, healing PrEs becomes much better at healing than than the Melee/offensive-casting-focused Divine. Whereas currently, Healbots gain very little healing power over more well-rounded builds.

[Riggs]

Yes, I am for one such update. That's my point.
U13 in 2 months

- bugfixes only,
- undone enhancements and prestiges only.

Period. And after that watch the Hears of wood sales go over the top.

Ok this will be my last response to any more gibberish you say.

You are replying to posts - and not even reading them. You have zero idea what timelines Turbine operates on, despite Turbine telling everyone what they are, and despite it being posted in here.

Obtuse by design, or obtuse by ability - you are not making a single rational point because you choose not to read what other people write - including Turbine.
/squelch on

[dkyle]

So say you were a horc fighter 12/ranger 6/rogue 2 (note very hypothetical as my guildie has one of these . . .)

Tree 1: Kensai II
Tree 2: Tempest I
Treer 3: Ravager III (racial)

Assuming you have all the APs . . . you can do this? just won't be able to put any APs into any of his rogue stuff?

Yes, that build would work.

But, it's competing against a Drow (or maybe Human/Half-elf) pure Barbarian TempestIII/FBIII/RavagerI.

[grodon9999]

Wait a tic . . . so it's racial tree and up to three class based trees?

[Razcar]

Wait a tic . . . so it's racial tree and up to three class based trees?
No, racial (if picked) replaces one of the three class trees. Edit: Sorry, PrE, not tree.

[dkyle]

Wait a tic . . . so it's racial tree and up to three class based trees?

Racial tree, which is not the Racial PrE tree, plus three class-based trees, one of which could be your Racial PrE tree.

The Racial tree is where you purchase your Racial PrE (so that you can swap a class tree for it), or other general racial enhancements (like Scimitar/Bow damage for Elves, assuming those lines are kept).

[orakio]

@Dkyle

Under the old system multiclass characters were almost universally better as you had a better ability to pick pure dps boosting enhancements instead of wasting points on useless enhancements just to get to the next step of enhancements. Under the new system the relative value of the split is all dependant on what the actual enhancements are and their requirements under the new tree. Also don't forget that multiclassing lets you take advantage of things like class bonus feats (monk/fighter), inherent feats(ranger), or unique feats that you can't otherwise acquire like evasion (monk/rogue/ranger). That is a massive advantage if you also get to include superior enhancement selection.

A pure character is not able to get any higher in it's total ranks of PrE's than a multiclass character in the new system. They don't have more tree slots, and they don't have the old capstone bonuses that helped to bring incintive to pure characters. They have new capstones that require 41 points in a tree but those last 11 points trade off for 2 ranks of a PrE bonus (level 5 and 10) and may even prevent more than that depending on the costs of unlocking racial PrE's.

You could be correct, it could be that high level enhancements are so good that you are really missing out on something by not staying 18+ in a class. You could also be entirely wrong if those high level enhancements are just limited to higher ranks of stuff you were already picking up (like in live version) and don't have the same AP cost.

The problem is you are creating a hypothetical situation in which heavy multiclass characters are inherently weaker because thats how you feel it is going to be with no data to back that up at the moment. If you want to voice an opinion it is ok to say "I am worried that 3 trees won't be enough or fair to heavy multiclasses but i need to see", but stating "3 trees isn't enough for heavy multiclasses and pure characters are going to be better" has no real ground to stand on. Voice the opinion, make sure the developers hear your concerns but don't automatically assume that they haven't taken it into consideration already considering multiclassing is such a big part of DDO and D&D.

[grodon9999]

Yes, that build would work.

But, it's competing against a Drow (or maybe Human/Half-elf) pure Barbarian TempestIII/FBIII/RavagerI.

Will the feat requirements even make that possible? has that been explained at all? I missed like 10 pages of this thread as I was actually playing the game on a day off as opposed to trolling the forums at work.

Tempest III right now is 4 feats, plus you'll need the TWFing stuff if you ain't getting them for free as a ranger. Sure fighter could fit this all in . . . but no way in hell could an FBIII with barbarian as the main class.

[Cyr]

Wait a tic . . . so it's racial tree and up to three class based trees?

I don't think so based upon the responses we have so far.

It is a racial tree (that is NOT a racial PrE, but instead stuff like human healing amp) which you can spend point in to unlock the ability to set one of the three selectable PrE trees to your racial PrE.

So you are limited to three PrE tabs which could be a racial plus two class or three classes.

[Riggs]

Wait a tic . . . so it's racial tree and up to three class based trees?

That sounds like a new change from yesterday even. or else two different people posting slightly different thoughts on the matter.

*edit...too many new posts - clarified now - same as yesterday then

[Cyr]

Will the feat requirements even make that possible? has that been explained at all? I missed like 10 pages of this thread as I was actually playing the game on a day off as opposed to trolling the forums at work.

Tempest III right now is 4 feats, plus you'll need the TWFing stuff if you ain't getting them for free as a ranger. Sure fighter could fit this all in . . . but no way in hell could an FBIII with barbarian as the main class.

Depends on how lose those feat requirements get. If they do not loosen up a decent amount racial PrE's will in certain cases be next to worthles though (like drow tempest).

[dkyle]

Will the feat requirements even make that possible? has that been explained at all? I missed like 10 pages of this thread as I was actually playing the game on a day off as opposed to trolling the forums at work.

Tempest III right now is 4 feats, plus you'll need the TWFing stuff if you ain't getting them for free as a ranger. Sure fighter could fit this all in . . . but no way in hell could an FBIII with barbarian as the main class.

We've been told that feat requirements will be scaled way back. I think "flavor" prereqs, which Tempest has the worst of, are going away.

The only example of feat prereqs staying we've been given have been for enhancements that literally enhance that feat. Like Cleave -> Supreme Cleave, which would not be a required enhancement for FB (just one among many that could count towards it).

[Gulain]

But if we can stack together Healing PrEs, then the "Healbot" with two, or even three, healing PrEs becomes much better at healing than than the Melee/offensive-casting-focused Divine. Whereas currently, Healbots gain very little healing power over more well-rounded builds.

There's no indication anywhere that either of the current divine classes is going to have 2 seperate healing PREs. The last data we had on planned PREs, while no longer current or necessarily accurate for classes (and certaintly incorrect on races) indicated only a single healer prestige line for either of these classes.

Yes, stacking healing enhancements from 3 trees if they all received the same bonuses and locked out would certaintly make for a stronger healer. But current healing level shouldn't change if you go 30points into the appropriate healer tree for either divine class.

If you can stack together Healing PrEs from seperate classes you are talking about a multiclass healer (as there is no confirmation regarding either of these PREs being achievable by any of the races) which means you are casting at MUCH lower caster level. Undoubtedly this is still a total deduction at healing output and you'd have to ask if the enhancements you can pick up from a split would cover this. Just going on the information we have from current enhancements I'd say in no way giving up 6+ class levels for a healer going to make you heal BETTER even assuming combination of enhancements.

[dkyle]

That sounds like a new change from yesterday even. or else two different people posting slightly different thoughts on the matter.

No, it's consistent. Eladrin's response just becomes a bit confusing on it's own if you don't realize the difference between Racial tree and Racial PrEs. I should've included my query to him as context. Here's the original #1 that he confirmed:


1. A Racial tree, plus 3 Class PrEs, one of which might be swapped out for the Racial PrE purchased by AP on the Racial tree.

[Cyr]

There's no indication anywhere that either of the current divine classes is going to have 2 seperate healing PREs. The last data we had on planned PREs, while no longer current or necessarily accurate for classes (and certaintly incorrect on races) indicated only a single healer prestige line for either of these classes.


Which would then lead to two healing PrEs on a half elf or human character.

[grodon9999]

We've been told that feat requirements will be scaled way back. I think "flavor" prereqs, which Tempest has the worst of, are going away.

The only example of feat prereqs staying we've been given have been for enhancements that literally enhance that feat. Like Cleave -> Supreme Cleave, which would not be a required enhancement for FB (just one among many that could count towards it).

See . . . I'm not so sure if this is a good thing. Right now that's a huge balancing factor that you just won't be able to take everything because of lack of feats. The FBIII Kensai III monstrosity just doesn't look like it'd be possible if you kept the current feat requirements.

Or it could mean I'd have a few more feats to play with on my guys, not sure if I like this idea or hate it.

best thing to do is a LONG beta where we see what we can come up with to "break" things. What'll be the next 18/1/1 or 12/6/2 ubber combo . . . how OP is it . . . etc . . . and then adjust.

Changes this big will have unintended consequences.

[Gulain]

Which would then lead to two healing PrEs on a half elf or human character.

Except that you are ASSUMING that's possible. Not sure why everyone things Human or Helf can take EVERY PRE possible. I believe Eladrin already posted that they were planning on limiting this.

I'm going to go with only melee (or physical weapon-based) type PREs are being planned for racial PRE (as indicated by their list) and Human's/H-elves will most likely be restricted to this same list of racial PRE.

edit: Here's a link to where Eladrin talks a little about Human/H-elf situation: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4249263&postcount=307

More or less they have acknowledged the propensity for disaster if these races were to have open PRE selection. I would think that they would keep situations outlined by DKyle and yourself in mind if they are making "lists based on class" as he tossed out. Open to change but pretty sure they have these things in mind or were made aware of them by posts by the community.

[Riggs]

No, it's consistent. Eladrin's response just becomes a bit confusing on it's own if you don't realize the difference between Racial tree and Racial PrEs. I should've included my query to him as context. Here's the original #1 that he confirmed:

yeah too many new posts, after my reply was like 10 more posts already - same as yesterday then.

[Claymorep]

Let me say I like the base idea exposed by Devs, but...
After years (from advent of DDO) in which class balance was miles away to be balanced You are suggesting to start it again from "start" and sincerely I doubt a lot You'll do a better work in balancing them and considering the recent jobs all these changes will have a so great bugs impact that probably 6 monthes later we'll have a no-bug work and we'll have to whine some others years about class balance with another competition about more class whining win...

I repeat that I like the idea, but this change will be a great change with some new bugs, some new class unbalances and some new request to balance them...

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

See . . . I'm not so sure if this is a good thing. Right now that's a huge balancing factor that you just won't be able to take everything because of lack of feats. The FBIII Kensai III monstrosity just doesn't look like it'd be possible if you kept the current feat requirements.

Or it could mean I'd have a few more feats to play with on my guys, not sure if I like this idea or hate it.

best thing to do is a LONG beta where we see what we can come up with to "break" things. What'll be the next 18/1/1 or 12/6/2 ubber combo . . . how OP is it . . . etc . . . and then adjust.

Changes this big will have unintended consequences.

Oh, this HAS to sit on Lamma for a good remainder of '12, and thats if they plan to have it out for play testing in mid summer. 3-4 months is my guess.

[Dagolar]

Unless "No idea just yet." is in answer to his first question....than you still haven't answered the question about what happens to the general class enhancements that were not previously tied to any particular PrE of the class, whether or not they will end up being shared by the new PrE tabs, whether or not they will count for both, whether or not they will lock out same-type enhancements in other tabs. All questions we would like answers to, for several pages of this thread by now.

We're still figuring this stuff out. If you have opinions on which way to go, let us know!

Making racial PrEs take up a PrE tab adds tactical functionality while still offering versatility. Assuming that paths still tie to class level, tying those to overall level further adds to the value. So that's a solid set.

The problem lies in with core class enhancements. By dividing them among PrEs, you risk limiting current versatility for multi-class builds, while at the same time promoting multi-class build use. Certainly, that structure seems fun enough, but it seems a stepping-stone to becoming too narrow in builds, which I recall was a specific element mentioned by devs earlier in this thread as NOT being wanted.
So, the simplest approach to this seems as if it would be adding another thin row below the enhancements tabs. Like the total-points-spent column above it, it would form a straight line of tiered icons tied to a numeric requirement- in this case, core class level.
The columns in the bottom would remain empty until levels of the core class were taken; Racial PrE unlock could add an additional column below the racial enhancements tab, assuming no duplication of class, allowing further variety, as well as value to unlocking without pursuing.

I believe it was mentioned that the total points spent columns unlocked automatically upon gaining of x points, so this new row/new columns would differ in requiring points to be actively spent on the enhancements, thus retaining the generic access versatility of per-class enhancements.




We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.

May want to improve Great Cleave and Supreme Cleave's functionalities, then, most people seem to consider them as alternates of cleave, not upgrades.


Oh, this HAS to sit on Lamma for a good remainder of '12, and thats if they plan to have it out for play testing in mid summer. 3-4 months is my guess.

Patience is a virtue. For all involved.

[Failedlegend]

Dwarf: Perfict Choise, just spelled wrong...fixed it...hehe
Warforged: Right class, but missing the eberron flair.
Halfling: Fine choise, but I'd go with TA for flavor.
Half-Orc: Perfict!
Elf: Fitting, but I think the extra option of Archmage will bring more attention to the underutilized Elf(maybe...)
Drow: Way off, for melee balance purposes maybe...but if that's the case Assassin fits the Drow better, imo.
Human: Fitting...I think I've slimmed the choises down to the few that "say" Human the most, as far as flexability or boringness...
Half-Elf: Fitting...I just applied my Human and Elf responses to Half-Elf(but maybe give the Half-Elf a choise based on their Dilettante)


Well...after a few hours of brainstorming(mostly on the Juggernaut in my linked post)....there's my 2CP.
~Nim

Agree with some but personally I'd go with this

Dwarf:

Dwarven Defender (even if it's a straight duplicate of Stalwart defender just call it this :D)

Warforged

Juggernaut works IF you go with Ormsbygores idea or something similar (Titan form is cool but the immunity to healing which makes it useless)...if you go with the PnP version it's useless..on the other hand it would be funny to make Occult Slayer the warforged racial...being that melee warforged have been allegedly so far behind their arcane brethern that they decided to just start killing them off.

Alternatively you could go with Reforged which is essentially the opposite of Juggernaut...IIRC it's all about striping away the metal components and getting closer to a flesh and blood race (more tree-like i guess) it would remove the ASF, the divine healing Penalty but you'd lose the improved fort, the ability to take an armor feat and your ability to use repair spells would be reduced but they get to keep all their immunities.


Halfling


I'd be ok with Assassin it doesn't really fit halflings but honestly none of the current PrEs available really do...although I'd love if Dino-Rider was added :D

Half-Orc

Ravager works..no argument here

Elf

AA works sure but I honestly think elf NEEDS more and I think the one thing that could make them a race used again is a Gish PrE..Eldritch Knight for example...basically have it reduce ASF, Increase Caster Level (Maxed at 20) and early on have it make it so attack uses Int/Cha (whichever is higher) for attack and damage. Capstone would nullify any ASF and make BAB 20.

Drow

No real comment here never really played, probably never will so I'll let the drow lovers decide what they like.

Human

This fits perfectly actually...very much reflects their versatile nature.

Note: Humans should NOT have access to some racially SPECIFIC PrEs like Juggernaut (need to be warforged to make sense) or Eldritch Knight (This would make elves useless again as you'd just go Human instead)


Half-Elf

Their Racial PrE should be reflected in their Dilettante choice ie. Choose Paladin Dilly get your choice of Paladin Prestige...as well as AA of course...although NOT Eldritch KNight only Elf should have access to that

[Cyr]

Except that you are ASSUMING that's possible. Not sure why everyone things Human or Helf can take EVERY PRE possible.

I am only responding based upon what has been said so far. I have seen no indication that only melee or ranged based PrE's will be available as racial choices for humans or half elves.

[Dagolar]

Agree with some but personally I'd go with this

[...]

Human

This fits perfectly actually...very much reflects their versatile nature...except ONLY elf should have access to Eldritch Knight


Half-Elf

Their Racial PrE should be reflected in their Dilettante choice ie. Choose Paladin Dilly get your choice of Paladin Prestige...as well as AA of course... [...]

To the first part: Yes, there have to be some PrEs that are racially specific.. if, for no other reason, that Juggernaut and Scorpion Wraith would be absurd to try and explain away on another race.

To the second: YES. Tie the HE bonus PrE choice to their Dil. It's a smooth solution, it still allows them human-like versatility on the matter, and it adds tons of flavor.

[dkyle]

Under the old system multiclass characters were almost universally better as you had a better ability to pick pure dps boosting enhancements instead of wasting points on useless enhancements just to get to the next step of enhancements.

I don't think this at all true. Pure builds and 18/2 builds are very common. We have deep multiclassing, but they don't dominate. If anything, I wish the new system would encourage them more, but this goes the exact opposite direction.


Also don't forget that multiclassing lets you take advantage of things like class bonus feats (monk/fighter), inherent feats(ranger), or unique feats that you can't otherwise acquire like evasion (monk/rogue/ranger). That is a massive advantage if you also get to include superior enhancement selection.

Class features are rarely the impetus for deep multiclassing currently, and I doubt that will change.

Splashes, sure, but I don't think splashes will be hurt nearly as much as deep multiclassing.


A pure character is not able to get any higher in it's total ranks of PrE's than a multiclass character in the new system. They don't have more tree slots, and they don't have the old capstone bonuses that helped to bring incintive to pure characters. They have new capstones that require 41 points in a tree but those last 11 points trade off for 2 ranks of a PrE bonus (level 5 and 10) and may even prevent more than that depending on the costs of unlocking racial PrE's.

A pure character can take more total ranks of PrEs (assuming you're talking about the bonus ranks). Consider the 7 ranks (available at levels 3/6/12/9/15/18/20)

A pure, without racial PrE, could go 7/6, for 13 total PrE ranks. Or, 6/6/2, for 14 total PrE ranks. Other splits are possible, but 14 is the max. Add in racial PrE, then as long as the overhead is 10 or less, it'll cost one PrE rank, for a max of 13.

An 18/2 that doesn't take a tree from their splash, nor their Racial PrE, is capable of the same numbers of ranks, although they lose the option of the capstoned 7/6 split. If they take their Racial PrE, again, assuming no more than 10 AP overhead, that reduces their possible ranks to 13. Now, if they do take a tree from their Splash, they are now only able to go 6/6, whether they take their Racial PrE or not, for 12 ranks.

A 12/6/2 gets complicated:

For 2 primary class PrEs, plus 1 secondary class PrE: 4/4/2 is the highest possible layout, for only 10 PrE ranks. What's worse, dropping one won't even allow them to raise another.

For 1 Racial PrE, plus 1 primary class PrE, plus 1 secondary class PrE: 7/4/2 is the highest possible layout, for 13 PrE ranks. But note two things: anything other than a capstoned Race is suboptimal, because the other trees can't be increased further, so there are fewer choices than the Pure or Splash, and the Racial PrE actually means more than the PrEs from actual class levels. This points to race+class combos being much more important than multiclassing for versatility. I don't think that's a good thing.

For 1 primary class PrE, plus 2 secondary class PrEs: 4/2/2 is highest possible, for only 8 PrE ranks.

For 1 Racial PrE, plus 2 secondary class PrEs: 7/2/2 is highest, for 11 PrE ranks. But this one isn't even likely, since it means not taking any enhancements from your primary class.

Then there's combos involving the splash, but those are just terrible for numbers of PrE ranks.


So, no matter how the trees are allocated, the 12/6/2 gets fewer possible ranks than the pure class. And the only way to even get close is to put more points into the Racial PrE, than either of the classes you multiclassed!


The problem is you are creating a hypothetical situation in which heavy multiclass characters are inherently weaker because thats how you feel it is going to be with no data to back that up at the moment. If you want to voice an opinion it is ok to say "I am worried that 3 trees won't be enough or fair to heavy multiclasses but i need to see", but stating "3 trees isn't enough for heavy multiclasses and pure characters are going to be better" has no real ground to stand on. Voice the opinion, make sure the developers hear your concerns but don't automatically assume that they haven't taken it into consideration already considering multiclassing is such a big part of DDO and D&D.

If they are going to be intentionally front-loaded to encourage deep multiclassing, that could work. But my guess, based on that Tempest outline, is that we'll get basically the same distribution as now. Tempest is loaded towards 12 levels now, and remains so in the new system. And under the current system, TierII+TierI PrE combos are far from clearly advantages compared to TierIIIs. There are some benefits, but also serious penalties. As there should be, but for those same combos to be worthwhile given the new system, those benefits would have to be far more.

But it remains that the system of enhancements inherently discourages multiclassing. I have enough info to make that judgement. I don't have enough info to definitively state what builds will or will not work, but it has not been my intention to do so (but I may not have always been clear on this). Just assess the properties of the system as currently described.

Ultimately, obviously, this thread is filled with speculation and supposition filling in the gaps. But of course it is. Without making some assumptions, there'd be no way to even begin to meaningfully analyze the system.

[dkyle]

See . . . I'm not so sure if this is a good thing. Right now that's a huge balancing factor that you just won't be able to take everything because of lack of feats. The FBIII Kensai III monstrosity just doesn't look like it'd be possible if you kept the current feat requirements.

Or it could mean I'd have a few more feats to play with on my guys, not sure if I like this idea or hate it.

Problem is that if Tempest keeps its prereqs, then Racial PrE Tempest is really only useful to Fighters. The overhead would be far too much for anyone else.

I think the bigger issue is that Racial PrEs are just way too powerful. They overshadow multiclassing and largely supplant. They actually discourage the iconic race-class combos they're inspired by.

I made a suggestion earlier in the thread on this, and I still like it: instead of simply providing the tree, make the Racial PrE count as "virtual levels" in another class that only count towards class-level prereqs for the designated PrE. I think 6 would be fair. If you don't take any levels in that class, 6 is all you get, so you could pick up the TierI bonus, but no further. If you do take levels, they'd stack.

So, a Drow FBIII could pick up TempestI (which would have no feat prereqs). Still a very nice bonus, but not ridiculous, I think. And a Drow Ranger could multiclass a little, and still pick up the Tempest capstone. I would also suggest adding a "26th level" racial capstone to encourage Drow Rangers to stay pure. The racial capstone would activate at 41 enhancement points spent, at effective minimum level 26.

[Cyr]

I would also suggest adding a "26th level" racial capstone to encourage Drow Rangers to stay pure. The racial capstone would activate at 41 enhancement points spent, at effective minimum level 26.

Suggested Capstone: Your character name changes to "RASALVATOREFANXXXX". You have won drow and devils online. You gain an additional 5% double strike chance when dual wielding.

[Eladrin]

I made a suggestion earlier in the thread on this, and I still like it: instead of simply providing the tree, make the Racial PrE count as "virtual levels" in another class that only count towards class-level prereqs for the designated PrE. I think 6 would be fair. If you don't take any levels in that class, 6 is all you get, so you could pick up the TierI bonus, but no further. If you do take levels, they'd stack.
This is a clever idea.

We could also consider having additional points you put into the unlock enhancement treated you as if you were 3 <ranger/whatever> levels higher than you actually were, or something.

[grodon9999]

This is a clever idea.

We could also consider having additional points you put into the unlock enhancement treated you as if you were 3 <ranger/whatever> levels higher than you actually were, or something.

so a dwarf . . . 20 fighter . . . could be more defenderish?

[Lithic]

This is a clever idea.

We could also consider having additional points you put into the unlock enhancement treated you as if you were 3 <ranger/whatever> levels higher than you actually were, or something.

You could also tie in the TR system by having past lives count as 1 or 2 class levels each in a similar way.

[grodon9999]

You could also tie in the TR system by having past lives count as 1 or 2 class levels each in a similar way.

I LIKE this.

[Missing_Minds]

This is a clever idea.

We could also consider having additional points you put into the unlock enhancement treated you as if you were 3 <ranger/whatever> levels higher than you actually were, or something.

Multi class a caster, and cast at level 20 power, even if you only have level X options to mimic the one feat?

[Coldin]

This is a clever idea.

We could also consider having additional points you put into the unlock enhancement treated you as if you were 3 <ranger/whatever> levels higher than you actually were, or something.

If it was limited to only 6 levels of that class for PRE purposes, wouldn't that kill some builds like Elven Arcane Archers.

[Failedlegend]

If it was limited to only 6 levels of that class for PRE purposes, wouldn't that kill some builds like Elven Arcane Archers.

ummmm...yes it would it would make it so ONLY rangers can be full AAs...how is this a good idea AT ALL

[QuantumFX]

You could also tie in the TR system by having past lives count as 1 or 2 class levels each in a similar way.

Don’t forget Half-elf Dillettante feats.

[Eladrin]

If it was limited to only 6 levels of that class for PRE purposes, wouldn't that kill some builds like Elven Arcane Archers.
That's why we'd need a mechanism to increase the cap. (The additional points spent part of the sentence.)

[dkyle]

This is a clever idea.

We could also consider having additional points you put into the unlock enhancement treated you as if you were 3 <ranger/whatever> levels higher than you actually were, or something.

Glad you like it :)

Yeah, if you do want to keep the current full-tiered-Racial-PrEs, adding a bonus-level side effect would go a long way towards ensuring that Half-orc Barbs, Drow Rangers, etc, have a real purpose. But I still think full-tiered Racial PrEs are too powerful compared to what multiclassing gets us. I'd rather the build emphasis be on multiclass splits, than on specific race/class combos.

If you don't want to reduce the full range of the Racial PrE, what about giving multiclassing a boost to how much access it gets to enhancements? Perhaps give all enhancements (including the bonus ranks) both class level and character level requirements? So character level would go 3/6/9/12/15/18/20, but class level might go 1/3/5/8/12/18/20, and a character would need to meet both requirements to get the enhancements. So, basically, a 1 or 2 splash could pick up the very lowest level of the PrE. A 3 deep multi could pick up a (what's currently) tierI. An 8 deep multi could pick up a tier II. 18 levels would still be needed for a tier III.

[dkyle]

ummmm...yes it would it would make it so ONLY rangers can be full AAs...how is this a good idea AT ALL

I should have mentioned in my summary, but my original post (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4251129#post4251129) on the idea included an exception for AAs. That and some other race-class combos might make sense to allow a wider range of access to the Racial PrE.

[Chai]

Glad you like it :)

Yeah, if you do want to keep the current full-tiered-Racial-PrEs, adding a bonus-level side effect would go a long way towards ensuring that Half-orc Barbs, Drow Rangers, etc, have a real purpose. But I still think full-tiered Racial PrEs are too powerful compared to what multiclassing gets us. I'd rather the build emphasis be on multiclass splits, than on specific race/class combos.

If you don't want to reduce the full range of the Racial PrE, what about giving multiclassing a boost to how much access it gets to enhancements? Perhaps give all enhancements (including the bonus ranks) both class level and character level requirements? So character level would go 3/6/9/12/15/18/20, but class level might go 1/3/5/8/12/18/20, and a character would need to meet both requirements to get the enhancements. So, basically, a 1 or 2 splash could pick up the very lowest level of the PrE. A 3 deep multi could pick up a (what's currently) tierI. An 8 deep multi could pick up a tier II. 18 levels would still be needed for a tier III.

I disagree that racial PRE would be too powerful. The only thing they need to do to curb that power is make it so all of the options in multiple PRE cant be taken with the available points. Making people still take levels in the class they want to emulate with racial PRE is too limiting on options in my opinion - even more limiting than what we have right now.

Right now I can be a cleric 20 elf AA. In the new system I cant?

[CaptGrim]

I should have mentioned in my summary, but my original post (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4251129#post4251129) on the idea included an exception for AAs. That and some other race-class combos might make sense to allow a wider range of access to the Racial PrE.

This new system needs to have built in consistancy with no special exceptions.

To be honest i dont like the idea very much, because it is much easier to get that class split>race/class combo in other ways. General class tree, all trees but lock in 3 for PrEs, 1 tree extra for each extra class, etc.

[bhgiant]

And a Drow Ranger could multiclass a little, and still pick up the Tempest capstone.
Is this true? I thought capstones were staying pure 20.

This is what I understood the prestige line to be. On the bottom, the horizontal tiers at 5, 10, 15 etc enhancement points would become available at class levels 3, 6, 9 etc. At 41 enhancement points, you would get the capstone but only if you were level 20. Is this not correct?

[Thrudh]

I think that shallow splash multi classing will take a mild hit, because you won't get nearly as much enhancement joy out of 1 or 2 levels as in the past.

However, I don't think that's the same thing as multiclasses are doomed. If taking that rogue level for 1d6 sneak attack, all the class skills, trapsmithing feat, and evasion isn't enough without getting the Rogue boosts, then it will be a bad choice.

But most splashes are about the class abilities and the enhancements are gravy.

I don't think the enhancements are just gravy... It's actually a tough choice now for most melees whether to splash rogue or monk for evasion... Two feats? Or UMD, and 3.5 sneak attack damage? Most people will take the two feats... Throw in the enhancements of 3 more sneak attack damage, plus Haste Boost I, and suddenly rogue is competitive witn monk.

Enhancements are an important part of this game, in many cases as important as feats. We need to be careful here.


You do realize that hard choices are actually a boon for diversity, right? If you set up a "general" tab with all the good enhancements, then you are contributing to cookie cutter sameness. The way to create diversity is to have a variety of useful things that each player can only have a portion of. If everyone takes 90% the same enhancements, that's not diversity.

You make a good point here. But we have plenty of diversity it seems with just the different class choices. But maybe more would be useful. I just think that we need to keep feats and other attributes in mind. Many people splash for enhancements as much as feats or innate abilities.

[Vormaerin]

Yes, that build would work.

But, it's competing against a Drow (or maybe Human/Half-elf) pure Barbarian TempestIII/FBIII/RavagerI.

No, its not.

Why is everyone completely ignoring the racial enhancements? Granted, drow currently don't get many worth taking. But most races do.

Your racial stats, racial toughness, racial tactics, racial DPS enhancements, and possibly the dragonmark enhancements (if they succeed in making them useful) will all be points that don't count towards any tree.

Your T3/FB3/R1 obviously doesn't have a capstone, since 41+30+10 = 81. And that's without actually paying whatever point cost there is to unluck tempest anyway. He doesn't have any racial enhancements. There's no reason to believe that's going to be any kind of good build. I can't imagine any human or helf melee not taking versatility & healing amp, at a minimum, for instance.

There are certainly going to be "winner" builds. There will be in any system. But reactions based on suggestions that are clearly ludicrous on their face is just silly.

I don't like racial PrEs, as I said before. But lets at least argue about things that are likely to result from them, not fairy tales.

[Vormaerin]

Is this true? I thought capstones were staying pure 20.

This is what I understood the prestige line to be. On the bottom, the horizontal tiers at 5, 10, 15 etc enhancement points would become available at class levels 3, 6, 9 etc. At 41 enhancement points, you would get the capstone but only if you were level 20. Is this not correct?

The Race based PrE was suggested as counting your total level against its requisites. So you could always capstone your racial PrE even if you multiclassed, at least the way the Devs have explained it so far.

[Hendrik]

That's why we'd need a mechanism to increase the cap. (The additional points spent part of the sentence.)

"Epic" AP.

Gain "Epic" XP past level Cap that is applied to "Epic" AP. Epic XP/AP would follow same XP progression as your current life. "Epic" AP can be applied the same as non-Epic AP in your Enhancement revamp.


Maybe limit the amount of "Epic" AP to only 4 or 8?

[Failedlegend]

I should have mentioned in my summary, but my original post (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4251129#post4251129) on the idea included an exception for AAs. That and some other race-class combos might make sense to allow a wider range of access to the Racial PrE.

Thats bring up the questions of...WHY?

Why does ONLY AA get the exception while other racials get shafted

[kingfisher]

What is the purpose for limiting the number of trees at all? Are the class enhancments not limited by class level? If you invest X amount of levels in a class why should you not get access to X amount of that's classes core enhancements? This should have NO bearing on limiting each character to access to 3 pre's. The multi class investment should earn you the right to choose from more pre's, even if at a lower tier. I am sure I'm missing something cause I just don't get it. I don't see why each character should not have a racial tab with 1 tree on it, a class tab with up to 3 trees, and a pre tab with 3 trees.

[Chai]

I like the idea of using the actual number of points to curb overpowered-ness. Having more options on the table does not equal having the ability to take everything offered. As a long time DM / REF, Ive always loved the idea of the dilema. Players must choose and choose carefully. In DDO someone who is a 20 fighter half orc wanting to spec into both fighter and ravager fully has 80 AP, and 150 AP worth of DPS goodies they could spec into. They could end up full ravager with some kensai benefits, full kensai with some ravager benefits, or mutt build that has some tank, some ravager, and some kensai in it.

Tossing a racial PRE into the mix doesnt necessarily need to mean someone will be kebnsai3 stalwart3 ravager3 melee dps pun pun build from hades. They wont have nearly the points available to take all those options.

Theres really no reason to force players into further limitations.

[Gulain]

A pure character can take more total ranks of PrEs (assuming you're talking about the bonus ranks). Consider the 7 ranks (available at levels 3/6/12/9/15/18/20)

A pure, without racial PrE, could go 7/6, for 13 total PrE ranks. Or, 6/6/2, for 14 total PrE ranks. Other splits are possible, but 14 is the max. Add in racial PrE, then as long as the overhead is 10 or less, it'll cost one PrE rank, for a max of 13.

An 18/2 that doesn't take a tree from their splash, nor their Racial PrE, is capable of the same numbers of ranks, although they lose the option of the capstoned 7/6 split. If they take their Racial PrE, again, assuming no more than 10 AP overhead, that reduces their possible ranks to 13. Now, if they do take a tree from their Splash, they are now only able to go 6/6, whether they take their Racial PrE or not, for 12 ranks.

This logic is entirely false. The 3/6/9/12/15/18/20 is referring to total level of the character (including all classes in a multiclass). You are limited by AP to select 80 AP worth of enhancements. PREs are tiered at 10/20/30 replicating our current PRE with fillers inbetween them that provide additional boosts. All told there are 7 "tiers" under the new system with the final one being at 41 points.

A "pure" character as you put it is limited to 80AP which can be broken down to 30/30/20 for 6/6/4 "tiers" under the new system. A splash multiclass character can do the same thing... 30/30/20 by utilizing 2 trees from their primary class and 20 from a racial just like the pure 20 would (this case being a 18/2 split).

A deep multiclass, 12/6/2 split, would be limited to 20 points in a primary tree (or maybe 25 point tier) and could be looking at a slightly lower cap when limited to 3 trees. A 16/4 or 16/2/2 build could have posibilities for 30/25/25 type builds for them (tier 6 racial, 2x tier 5 class) which is MORE potential than these type builds have now. A 12/6/2 split could go for 41/20/15 (if racial capstones available for 7 tiers + tier 4 class + tier 3 class). The second would be 1 total tier less but the first could reach the same theoretical maximum that a pure or 18/2 split could reach. They would also at the same time get all of the other benefits that you pass off as non-factors (including evasion?) for multi-classing.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Glad you like it :)

Yeah, if you do want to keep the current full-tiered-Racial-PrEs, adding a bonus-level side effect would go a long way towards ensuring that Half-orc Barbs, Drow Rangers, etc, have a real purpose. But I still think full-tiered Racial PrEs are too powerful compared to what multiclassing gets us. I'd rather the build emphasis be on multiclass splits, than on specific race/class combos.

I do not like where you are going with this. Race needs to remain an integral part of the build process, and sometimes that means racial benefits will trump certain multi-class configurations...


That's why we'd need a mechanism to increase the cap. (The additional points spent part of the sentence.)


Epic action points I think offers a wide open mechanic that can be utilized in "raising the cap" as well as altered to fix many racial balance issues and such as they occur.

Racial PrE's should be added like originally suggested, its a great way to divorce "class from PrE" and offer us "many more options".

[bhgiant]

I like the idea of using the actual number of points to curb overpowered-ness. Having more options on the table does not equal having the ability to take everything offered. As a long time DM / REF, Ive always loved the idea of the dilema. Players must choose and choose carefully. In DDO someone who is a 20 fighter half orc wanting to spec into both fighter and ravager fully has 80 AP, and 150 AP worth of DPS goodies they could spec into. They could end up full ravager with some kensai benefits, full kensai with some ravager benefits, or mutt build that has some tank, some ravager, and some kensai in it.

Tossing a racial PRE into the mix doesnt necessarily need to mean someone will be kebnsai3 stalwart3 ravager3 melee dps pun pun build from hades. They wont have nearly the points available to take all those options.

Theres really no reason to force players into further limitations.
I like the suggestion from someone who earlier stated to make a "lock in" 5 points. Spending 4 points in a tree would let you dabble but wouldn't lock in the tree.

I am actually in favor of the tree lock as long as this is in place. It wouldn't take away from splash builds. Tree locking is a good way to limit power and improve balance between builds.

[Failedlegend]

sted, its a great way to divorce "class from PrE" and offer us "many more options".

ALL racials being just duplicates do make the base classes feel a little meaningless but if we made the racials unique PrEs it would make it far more diverse...while giving half-elfs an interesting advantage, make humans scream versatility and give elves a reason to exist

I propose the following:


Dwarf: Dwarven Defender (Different than SD & DoS, have it add % DR, Immunity to ALL forms of knockdown and bonus saves vs. spells)

Warforged: Juggernaut & Reforged (gives you the choice to go more or less construct-like)

Halfling: Arcane Trickster (essentially a rogue/wiz mix that lets you open locks, disable traps, pick pockets at range and adds SA to Touch & Ray spells)

Half-Orc: War Chieftan or something (sorry don't really know half-orc lore much)

Elf: AA & Eldritch Knight (Eldritch knight would reduce ASF, Increase CL and BAB w/ the capstone completely eliminating ASF and making BAB 20...throw in a special ability or two and your golden)

Drow: Scorpion Wraith (again don't really know much about Drow lore-wise so I'm jsut going with whats others said)

Human: Can choose any racial (Except Juggernaut/Reforged, Eldritch Knight & Half-Elf Racials)

Half-Elf: Get a different racial based on dilettante choice..IOW if you have the Pally Dilly you can choose HotD, DoS or KoTC. Also has free access to AA of course (doesn't need ranger Dilly)

Every race also gets a few enhancement lines to improve dragonmarks (some bonuses would lock out other bonuses)


I like the suggestion from someone who earlier stated to make a "lock in" X points. Spending X-1 points in a tree would let you dabble but wouldn't lock in the tree.

I am actually in favor of the tree lock as long as this is in place. It wouldn't take away from splash builds. Tree locking is a good way to limit power and improve balance between builds.

Changed to X to let the devs decide the actual number but yeah works for me

[dkyle]

A 16/4 or 16/2/2 build could have posibilities for 30/25/25 type builds for them (tier 6 racial, 2x tier 5 class) which is MORE potential than these type builds have now.

No:


Quote from Eladrin via PM: "A 2 level splash could replace all three of their trees with those from the splash class, but due to level restrictions on enhancements they'll probably be restricted to the bottom two rows of enhancements, and won't get the free ones. (Those require levels 3/6/9/12/15/18/20.)"

A 16/2/2 build, if it takes a tree for each splash, would only be able get the 25-AP tier from their main class PrE, but absolutely no bonus PrEs from their splashes. And have a very limited selection of enhancements from those splash trees.


And again, my concern isn't primarily with splashes. I expect most to remain useful. It's with deep multiclasses done to gain PrEs.

[Aashrym]

A barb doesnt get assassin lines. A halfling does. A horc barb doesnt get kensai, a human barb can.
A horc that can access ravager gains nothing unless the tier 3/capstone costs less than it would otherwise - making horc a useful race for a barb - but then we get OP silliness like double capstone horc barbs, double capstone elf arcanes, double capstone human or dwarf tanks - which is simply too stupidly overpowered to be allowed in the game.

A barb doesn't get the assassin line, correct. A horc who wants the assassin line can make a rogue and and the racial PrE ravager to it and have both. Or he can multi rogue and barbarian, have the full PrE tree for ravager and part of assassin and part of occult slayer. The benefit is he can still utilize the PrE tree effectively as a barbarian, as a splashed barbarian, or as another class. Sounds so terrible. ;)

If the horc plays makes an assassin he doesn't have the rage ability without barbarian levels. PrE's are not classes and while they provide benefits they don't provide the main class features.

In the meantime if the new enhancement tree system were to get scrapped and the existing system of enhancements remain then completing the racial PrE's produces the same result you are talking about. Elves and helves being able to take arcane archer without the ranger level restrictions did not stop them from making rangers.

If we added and applied ravager to horcs and stalwarts to dwarves in the existing system horcs would still make barbarians for rage and dwarves would still make fighters for the extra feats. Dwarves could make bards and add stalwart III going pure bard or splashing. If that would break things in the new system it would break things in the old system.

The new system sounds like it's going to balance that out with stances to prevent OP combos but in the mean time we're looking at adding capstones that would never be available in the old system to multis. If anything that makes the new system look more multi-class friendly, not less.

[orakio]

One of the things i think the developers need to really identify is exactly how many PrE ranks they want players to realistically have access to. If we look at the example of Tempest provided earlier, each rank of the PrE gives a pretty solid bonus to your character and realistically at no cost assuming the enhancements that you are taking to reach those tiers are relevant and effective for your character.

@Dkyle i kind of like the system of racial PrE's providing a bonus to the classes that their PrE belongs to but i am not sure if i really like the limitation of needing to include that class into your character to access the PrE past tier 1. I am intrigued by the idea of things like Divine Avenger/Stalwart defender tanks and other builds that you don't see now, and i think that the system as you described it would probably limit your choices in other ways that would otherwise be available as the system is currently described.

Right now it just feels like we are trying to put a square peg in a round hole, yes there are some builds that may have issues with the new setup but there are also a slew of new potential builds with the way it currently sounds like it is designed. Other people have mentioned the idea of +X hearts of wood for current characters, and perhaps it will be needed depending on how it impacts multiclass characters. All i know is i am excited for details on some of the tree's and PrE's that have been missing so we can see the real possibilities of the system as outlined before criticizing it.

[Gulain]

[QUOTE=Gulain;4253727]A 16/4 or 16/2/2 build could have posibilities for 30/25/25 type builds for them (tier 6 racial, 2x tier 5 class) which is MORE potential than these type builds have now.[/quotes]

No:



A 16/2/2 build, if it takes a tree for each splash, would only be able get the 25-AP tier from their main class PrE, but absolutely no bonus PrEs from their splashes. And have a very limited selection of enhancements from those splash trees.


And again, my concern isn't primarily with splashes. I expect most to remain useful. It's with deep multiclasses done to gain PrEs.

But they can take 2 class PRE from their own class and a full racial pre (unless this is prevented). It still allows them to get the same total # of ranks as a pure or 18/2 split. Actually, a 16/4 could get 1 "tier" MORE than anything else. Doesn't make this especially overpowered but I think people are worrying too much about tier count when how your points are spent is more important than what tiers you will qualify for.

[LeLoric]

[QUOTE=Gulain;4253727]A 16/4 or 16/2/2 build could have posibilities for 30/25/25 type builds for them (tier 6 racial, 2x tier 5 class) which is MORE potential than these type builds have now.[/quotes]

No:



A 16/2/2 build, if it takes a tree for each splash, would only be able get the 25-AP tier from their main class PrE, but absolutely no bonus PrEs from their splashes. And have a very limited selection of enhancements from those splash trees.


And again, my concern isn't primarily with splashes. I expect most to remain useful. It's with deep multiclasses done to gain PrEs.

Think he meant double splash within his lev 16 class and then full racial prestige. So maybe a drow tempest/assassin/mechanic. It's probably very likely however that ap constraints may be an issue here as some points have to be used to unlock the racial prestige. Would maybe end up a split more like say 30/25/20 with the other 5 unlocking the racial.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

When I first saw that enhancements were getting redone, giving melees a general boost, etc., I was very happy. But reading further and discovering how it is envisioned to be implemented, I'm extremely worried that deep multiclass builds will no longer be possible. This reeks of fixing something that isn't broken, and killing off 12/6/2 builds in the process by limiting characters to only 3 class trees.

I guarantee, if this enhancement update launches and I can no longer make the following build or something extremely close to or superior it (without sacrificing kensai 2, wand and scroll mastery 1, divine sacrifice 1, DoS 1, haste boost, healing amp, or human versatility), I will be leaving DDO for good. It's my main character which I have spent years grinding gear, tomes, and past lives for with a very specific self-sustaining, survivable, flexible, DPS and off-tank build role in mind. If it gets killed off just because someone felt like tinkering with something that already worked, it will be too much to bear.

I've been here since the game originally launched and have never even suspended my sub the whole time, so yeah, this is a big deal. Please do it right, or don't do it at all.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(12 Fighter \ 6 Paladin \ 2 Rogue)
Hit Points: 394
Spell Points: 65
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 25
Reflex: 20
Will: 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 30
Dexterity 13 17
Constitution 14 18
Intelligence 9 12
Wisdom 8 12
Charisma 15 22

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 5 7
Bluff 2 8
Concentration 2 9
Diplomacy 2 8
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 6
Heal -1 1
Hide 1 3
Intimidate 6 33
Jump 8 14
Listen -1 1
Move Silently 1 3
Open Lock 5 18
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 1
Search -1 1
Spot 3 5
Swim 8 15
Tumble 5 7
Use Magic Device 6 32

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Berserker's Fury


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device


Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Use Magic Device (+10)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 15 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Khopesh Specialization I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I

[dkyle]

Thats bring up the questions of...WHY?

Why does ONLY AA get the exception while other racials get shafted

OK, I should flesh this out more.

Basically, I think it's a mistake to have Racial PrEs that are simply clones of Class PrEs. It leads to discouragement of multiclassing and combining those races with the classes they are supposed to be actually good at. Yes, that includes Arcane Archer. But that ship has sailed, and I wouldn't want to break builds over it. But I don't want to see the mistake replicated with all races.

So I would drive a distinction between Racial PrE, which would represent the PnP PrCs with actual Race prereqs, and be fully different from, and complementary to, Class PrEs; and Favored PrEs, which would represent PnP's favored classes. Essentially, Favored PrEs are designed to make a Race better at being a specific class, whereas the system as it stands actively discourages races from being the actual class their Racial PrE is from.

So, Dwarf might get Favored PrE Stalwart Defender (using my 6-level mechanic), but also get Dwarven Defender as their Racial PrE, which would be able to work on its own, or in concert with Stalwart Defender. Elves would get Favored PrE Archmage but keep Arcane Archer as their Racial PrE. Half-orc would get Favored PrE Ravager, but get their own Racial PrE (maybe War Chieftain or Eye of Grumnsh? Don't really know what they do, but they sound cool.). Juggernaut (heavily modified) would be the WF Racial PrE, while Stalwart Defender would be the Favored PrE. The only Racial PrE that would end up being a clone of a Class PrE would be the Arcane Archer one.

Given that this means more PrEs, ultimately, I would expect that the new system might launch with just the Favored PrE system, except for the lone Arcane Archer Racial PrE, with more Racial PrEs added over time.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

The new system sounds like it's going to balance that out with stances to prevent OP combos but in the mean time we're looking at adding capstones that would never be available in the old system to multis. If anything that makes the new system look more multi-class friendly, not less.

Yep, and thats only a small piece of the puzzle. New Racial PrEs and a reworked and empowered dragonmark system would really make this game fun again for many.

[dkyle]

But they can take 2 class PRE from their own class and a full racial pre (unless this is prevented). It still allows them to get the same total # of ranks as a pure or 18/2 split. Actually, a 16/4 could get 1 "tier" MORE than anything else. Doesn't make this especially overpowered but I think people are worrying too much about tier count when how your points are spent is more important than what tiers you will qualify for.

16/4 could get 7/5/1 at most, which is only 13 total ranks. Fewer than the 14 possible on a Pure build.

But I still don't think a 16/4 is truly a "deep" multiclass. It's borderline, but most 4-splashes are about feats and class features (I'm thinking mostly of 16 Bard/4 Fighter builds), not enhancements.

[Failedlegend]

OK, I should flesh this out more.

Basically, I think it's a mistake to have Racial PrEs that are simply clones of Class PrEs. It leads to discouragement of multiclassing and combining those races with the classes they are supposed to be actually good at. Yes, that includes Arcane Archer. But that ship has sailed, and I wouldn't want to break builds over it. But I don't want to see the mistake replicated with all races.

So I would drive a distinction between Racial PrE, which would represent the PnP PrCs with actual Race prereqs, and be fully different from, and complementary to, Class PrEs; and Favored PrEs, which would represent PnP's favored classes. Essentially, Favored PrEs are designed to make a Race better at being a specific class, whereas the system as it stands actively discourages races from being the actual class their Racial PrE is from.

So, Dwarf might get Favored PrE Stalwart Defender (using my 6-level mechanic), but also get Dwarven Defender as their Racial PrE, which would be able to work on its own, or in concert with Stalwart Defender. Elves would get Favored PrE Archmage but keep Arcane Archer as their Racial PrE. Half-orc would get Favored PrE Ravager, but get their own Racial PrE (maybe War Chieftain or Eye of Grumnsh? Don't really know what they do, but they sound cool.). Juggernaut (heavily modified) would be the WF Racial PrE, while Stalwart Defender would be the Favored PrE. The only Racial PrE that would end up being a clone of a Class PrE would be the Arcane Archer one.

Given that this means more PrEs, ultimately, I would expect that the new system might launch with just the Favored PrE system, except for the lone Arcane Archer Racial PrE, with more Racial PrEs added over time.

OK I think I understand it now.

So say I have a Dwarven Fighter12/x6/x2 he could be a Tier3 Dwarven Defender because he's a dwarf..and he also has 12 lvls of fighter he could normally also be an SD2 ...but since he's favored PrE SD he gets an extra 6 "pseudo" lvls thus can be a SD3 BUT becuase he's not pure he misses out on the special lvl 26 capstone?

With AA of course being the exception so we don't screw over current builds

If thats how it works...I'm good with that

[Gulain]

When I first saw that enhancements were getting redone, giving melees a general boost, etc., I was very happy. But reading further and discovering how it is envisioned to be implemented, I'm extremely worried that deep multiclass builds will no longer be possible. This reeks of fixing something that isn't broken, and killing off 12/6/2 builds in the process by limiting characters to only 3 class trees.

I guarantee, if this enhancement update launches and I can no longer make the following build or something extremely close to or superior it (without sacrificing kensai 2, wand and scroll mastery 1, divine sacrifice 1, DoS 1, haste boost, healing amp, or human versatility), I will be leaving DDO for good. It's my main character which I have spent years grinding gear, tomes, and past lives for with a very specific self-sustaining, survivable, flexible, DPS and off-tank build role in mind. If it gets killed off just because someone felt like tinkering with something that already worked, it will be too much to bear.

I've been here since the game originally launched and have never even suspended my sub the whole time, so yeah, this is a big deal. Please do it right, or don't do it at all.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(12 Fighter \ 6 Paladin \ 2 Rogue)
Hit Points: 394
Spell Points: 65
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 25
Reflex: 20
Will: 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 30
Dexterity 13 17
Constitution 14 18
Intelligence 9 12
Wisdom 8 12
Charisma 15 22

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 5 7
Bluff 2 8
Concentration 2 9
Diplomacy 2 8
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 6
Heal -1 1
Hide 1 3
Intimidate 6 33
Jump 8 14
Listen -1 1
Move Silently 1 3
Open Lock 5 18
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 1
Search -1 1
Spot 3 5
Swim 8 15
Tumble 5 7
Use Magic Device 6 32

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Berserker's Fury


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device


Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Use Magic Device (+10)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 15 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Khopesh Specialization I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I




I think it is too early at this point to say that you won't be able to build something superior or equivalent to it. I think you can safely assume that it will be DIFFERENT and will require you to re-evaluate things somewhat. Some of your skill focuses might drop slightly, others get boosted. It's a shame to say you are going to quit because you can't play an identical build when the system is overhauled because chances are that no build in the game currently will be identical in the new system.

From the input provided by the Dev's so far you SHOULD be able to make a build to fit ANY style you want. The combination of flushing out racial PRE, adding additional "tiers" to the pre system, overhauling and ultimately reducing the cost of many current enhancements should all lead to much more variety in the options of things to build. Wait until full information is out and you've had a chance to play on Lam and then make the decision from there.

[Thrudh]

So say you were a horc fighter 12/ranger 6/rogue 2 (note very hypothetical as my guildie has one of these . . .)

Tree 1: Kensai II
Tree 2: Tempest I
Treer 3: Ravager III (racial)

Assuming you have all the APs . . . you can do this? just won't be able to put any APs into any of his rogue stuff?

Maybe this does make not being to get any rogue enhancements worth it...

Right now, two PrEs is about all we can get... New system we'll be able to get three... so maybe losing the 1-2 levels of enhancements will be worth it.

[dkyle]

OK I think I understand it now.

So say I have a Dwarven Fighter12/x6/x2 he could be a Tier3 Dwarven Defender because he's a dwarf..and he also has 12 lvls of fighter he could normally also be an SD2 ...but since he's favored PrE SD he gets an extra 6 "pseudo" lvls thus can be a SD3 BUT becuase he's not pure he misses out on the special lvl 26 capstone?

If thats how it works...I'm good with that

Yeah, that's my intention.

[Chai]

OK, I should flesh this out more.

Basically, I think it's a mistake to have Racial PrEs that are simply clones of Class PrEs. It leads to discouragement of multiclassing and combining those races with the classes they are supposed to be actually good at. Yes, that includes Arcane Archer. But that ship has sailed, and I wouldn't want to break builds over it. But I don't want to see the mistake replicated with all races.

So I would drive a distinction between Racial PrE, which would represent the PnP PrCs with actual Race prereqs, and be fully different from, and complementary to, Class PrEs; and Favored PrEs, which would represent PnP's favored classes. Essentially, Favored PrEs are designed to make a Race better at being a specific class, whereas the system as it stands actively discourages races from being the actual class their Racial PrE is from.

So, Dwarf might get Favored PrE Stalwart Defender (using my 6-level mechanic), but also get Dwarven Defender as their Racial PrE, which would be able to work on its own, or in concert with Stalwart Defender. Elves would get Favored PrE Archmage but keep Arcane Archer as their Racial PrE. Half-orc would get Favored PrE Ravager, but get their own Racial PrE (maybe War Chieftain or Eye of Grumnsh? Don't really know what they do, but they sound cool.). Juggernaut (heavily modified) would be the WF Racial PrE, while Stalwart Defender would be the Favored PrE. The only Racial PrE that would end up being a clone of a Class PrE would be the Arcane Archer one.

Given that this means more PrEs, ultimately, I would expect that the new system might launch with just the Favored PrE system, except for the lone Arcane Archer Racial PrE, with more Racial PrEs added over time.

I dont feel that racial PRE discourages multiclassing - actually its quite the opposite.

Giving dwarves defender in your example, takes the limitation away from having to be 18 levels of fighter or paladin to be a tier 3 defender. A dwarf could take 20 barbarian levels and still be a defender. Stanley_Nicholas' (12 Fighter \ 6 Paladin \ 2 Rogue) could be a dwarven defender tank build if he wanted it to be with all 3 tiers of the PRE. Im not understanding this concern that racial PRE would discourage multiclassing. Being able to to multiclass and still be able to take tier 3 in a PRE is literally all the encouragement people will need to multiclass. No longer will we be locked into a 2, 6 or 12 levels as the legit splashes that work best. I could make a 9 monk 11 ranger and go full arcane archer right now. That should still be possible after the update, and apply to other class combinations as well without requiring people to invest in the original class to take the racial pre. The whole point is being able to take a racial PRE without having to be the class that normally would gain access to that pre to begin with.

Being able to build a odd split mutt and still be tier 3 in a pre encourages (not discourages) multiclassing. A 6 barbarian 13 rogue 1 monk defender 3 would be possible, for instance.

[Failedlegend]

OK I think I understand it now.

So say I have a Dwarven Fighter12/x6/x2 he could be a Tier3 Dwarven Defender because he's a dwarf..and he also has 12 lvls of fighter he could normally also be an SD2 ...but since he's favored PrE SD he gets an extra 6 "pseudo" lvls thus can be a SD3 BUT because he's not pure he misses out on the special lvl 26 capstone?

With AA of course being the exception so we don't screw over current builds

If thats how it works...I'm good with that


Yeah, that's my intention.

Ok so since I'm cool with that what should Human and H-Elves "Favored" PrEs be...should it be none to counter balance their flexibility in their Racial PrEs or should it be any to reflect that flexibility with H-Elves limited by their dilly so humans could choose any ONE class to give 6 "Pseudo" levels to while H-Elf can do the same with one of the PrEs from their Dilly Class



Dwarf: Dwarven Defender (Different than SD & DoS, have it add % DR, Immunity to ALL forms of knockdown and bonus saves vs. spells or something)

Warforged: Juggernaut & Reforged (gives you the choice to go more or less construct-like)

Halfling: Arcane Trickster (essentially a rogue/wiz mix that lets you open locks, disable traps, pick pockets at range and adds SA to Touch & Ray spells)

Half-Orc: War Chieftan or something (sorry don't really know half-orc lore much)

Elf: AA & Eldritch Knight (Eldritch knight would reduce ASF, Increase CL and BAB w/ the capstone completely eliminating ASF and making BAB 20...throw in a special ability or two and your golden)

Drow: Scorpion Wraith (again don't really know much about Drow lore-wise so I'm jsut going with whats others said)

Human: Can choose any racial (Except Juggernaut/Reforged, Eldritch Knight & Half-Elf Racials)

Half-Elf: Get a different racial based on dilettante choice..IOW if you have the Pally Dilly you can choose HotD, DoS or KoTC. Also has free access to AA of course (doesn't need ranger Dilly)

Every race also gets a few enhancement lines to improve dragonmarks (some bonuses would lock out other bonuses)

[Gulain]

16/4 could get 7/5/1 at most, which is only 13 total ranks. Fewer than the 14 possible on a Pure build.

But I still don't think a 16/4 is truly a "deep" multiclass. It's borderline, but most 4-splashes are about feats and class features (I'm thinking mostly of 16 Bard/4 Fighter builds), not enhancements.

They can do 7/5/5 (assuming racial capstones) or 6/5/5 without racial capstones (race, 2x class @ level 16; 30 points + 2x 25). You are able to take 2 class prestiges now, not limited to a single one. No reason why 3rd only has to be 1.

Full Pure technically can take 16 total tiers too (30/30/20 all class or 30/30/20 race/class/class). Max possible.

12/6/2 can take (30/20/20 so 6/4/4) 14 ranks tops. This is because you need 15+ levels in a class to get tier 5 prestige from what Eladrin stated.

edit: more to add...

Honestly, I think we're just worrying too much about tiers. I think ultimately it's the combination of enhancements that are available and the uniqueness of these enhancements from class to class that will dictate heavier multiclassing. If everything is very generic in low-mid tiers of enhancements then 12/6/2 or heavier multiclasses will most likely suffer as there's less point to dipping into them if they are generic.

If classes have very unique benefits these type of builds will still exist, if not quite as go-to as they are now, for people that have multi-functional build purposes. The do-it-alls will still look at these builds favorably while people that are more focused in their role will probably style more pure or splash type builds (kinda fits with the whole concept of multiclassing to begin with).

[LeLoric]

This is a clever idea.

We could also consider having additional points you put into the unlock enhancement treated you as if you were 3 <ranger/whatever> levels higher than you actually were, or something.

Whle the idea has merit. It benefits a splash itno the class that has the prestige but It does nothing for the pure class character with that racial. I know there's an ap spent cost but that was there with the old way too.

One thing I don't like about the system is it kinda gives favorite classes nothing and in fact somewhat penalizes them for those races as they don't get anything in extra whereas a non favored class still get's access to an extra tree and all it's enhancements.

A possible fix to this dilemma is maybe treat someone who already has the class and racial combo gets a scaling number of virtual points spent in that tree.

Example: A drow ranger gets lets say 2 virtual points spent for every 4 levels taken in ranger. These just count towards the total points spent they aren't additional action points that can be used for anything else. So a 20 drow ranger essential gets 10 free points towards tempest.

This would allow pure builds of favored races a nice benefit and allow them to be more rangery (in this example) as they would actually be able to get tempest capped out easier and still have more to spend in other trees.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

I think it is too early at this point to say that you won't be able to build something superior or equivalent to it. I think you can safely assume that it will be DIFFERENT and will require you to re-evaluate things somewhat. Some of your skill focuses might drop slightly, others get boosted. It's a shame to say you are going to quit because you can't play an identical build when the system is overhauled because chances are that no build in the game currently will be identical in the new system.

From the input provided by the Dev's so far you SHOULD be able to make a build to fit ANY style you want. The combination of flushing out racial PRE, adding additional "tiers" to the pre system, overhauling and ultimately reducing the cost of many current enhancements should all lead to much more variety in the options of things to build. Wait until full information is out and you've had a chance to play on Lam and then make the decision from there.

Better to let them know about it too early, than too late.

[grodon9999]

Maybe this does make not being to get any rogue enhancements worth it...

Right now, two PrEs is about all we can get... New system we'll be able to get three... so maybe losing the 1-2 levels of enhancements will be worth it.

That's what I'm thinking, but the devil will be in the details. I'd like more cards on the table, so far I'm thinking stuff will be okay.

Somehow though . . . since this is Turbine . . . when all of this is said and done casters and monks will somehow wind up being more powerful.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Example: A drow ranger gets lets say 2 virtual points spent for every 4 levels taken in ranger. These just count towards the total points spent they aren't additional action points that can be used for anything else. So a 20 drow ranger essential gets 10 free points towards tempest.

This would allow pure builds of favored races a nice benefit and allow them to be more rangery (in this example) as they would actually be able to get tempest capped out easier and still have more to spend in other trees.

This may be a very good way to ensure the mastery... and the popularity... of staying pure... without weakening the obvious customizable benefits of going multi-class.

[orakio]

Better to let them know about it too early, than too late.

Unfortunately your post sounds like a demand or pre-emptive temper tantrum more than anything. They are completely overhauling the system because there are some very clear issues with some enhancements/PrE's and balance issues between melee and casters currently. It is something fresh and new and even the SIMPLEST character will have a little bit of change to them. If everyone had the same outlook you do on this change then nothing would ever happen and the game would stagnate.

I understand your frustration and love for the character you have but it is unreasonable to demand nothing to change for you and also assume that the game or your character would be worse for it. Keep an open mind and at least a bit more patience, no real need for ultimatums when we have next to no real information.


That's what I'm thinking, but the devil will be in the details. I'd like more cards on the table, so far I'm thinking stuff will be okay.

Somehow though . . . since this is Turbine . . . when all of this is said and done casters and monks will somehow wind up being more powerful.

Monks seem tough, they really can't overlap as far as current class PrE's and the placement of stances may have a huge impact on them. Dwarven/human/helf Ninjaspy/Stalwart defender could be an interesting tanking option though.

[dkyle]

I dont feel that racial PRE discourages multiclassing - actually its quite the opposite.

The Racial PrE combined with the three tree limit is the problem. If I've got a solid PrE from my primary class, plus a solid PrE from my Race, I have to find yet another PrE worth giving up not just levels (and tiers) of my primary class, but also a whole tree of enhancements from my primary class.

But my biggest concern is that as-is, a Dwarven Fighter SD makes very little sense, because it's a waste of the Racial PrE. SDIII Dwarven pure Monk? SDIII Dwarven pure Barbarian? SDIII Dwarven pure Favored Soul? All seem great. It's bizarre that SDIII Dwarven Fighter is redundant, and thus likely a poor choice.


Giving dwarves defender in your example, takes the limitation away from having to be 18 levels of fighter or paladin to be a tier 3 defender.

That limitation doesn't exist at all in the current system. Be a Dwarf, go SDIII, and you can be a defender with any base class.

I would make Dwarven Defender weaker than SD, though. Still useful, but not so much it relegates SD to the backburner.


I could make a 9 monk 11 ranger and go full arcane archer right now. That should still be possible after the update, and apply to other class combinations as well without requiring people to invest in the original class to take the racial pre.

Ranger is kind of an exception, since the feats it grants are so perfect for certain builds. You can multi Ranger without expecting to make use of its Enhancements. So it matters less that Elf and Ranger are redundant for Arcane Archer. But most deep multiclassing is all about PrEs.

[Drona]

This may be a very good way to ensure the mastery... and the popularity... of staying pure... without weakening the obvious customizable benefits of going multi-class.

Absolutely. Nothing against multi-classing, but staying pure must have a bigger benefit.

[Artos_Fabril]

Afraid this got buried in the overnight posting madness.

An option that could encourage (or at least penalize less) deep multiclassing would be to put more benefits in the 9 and 12 tiers: Do you stop at 11 ranger levels when you've got the full TWF chain so you can pick up a second PrE to the level 9 tier, or do you go to 12 for tempest II? Stop at 14 and pick up another tier 1 PrE in an offclass, or sacrifice that level 6 PrE for the benefits of a level 15 tier PrE?
This capability wasn't utilized in the old system because most PrEs were 6/12/18 only, and all had a 6/12/18 basic template. With the option to add gated abilities at 3/6/9/12/15/18/10, we have a chance to encourage/enable non-traditional splits. 15/3/2, 11/9, for instance. This depends very strongly on hos enhancements are parsed out between PrE tabs however. Without a general tab, your splash/split has to be viable based on class features and the enhancements on a single tree, rather than the general enhancements for that class as they are now.

An example would be a 13/7 monk/rogue or ranger/rogue build. None of the tier one rogue PrEs are currently worth buying on that split, but there are enough general rogue enhancements to make it viable, even though you lose a (lackluster) Tier III PrE. If you only got to pick 1/3rd of those general rogue enhancements, would it still be worth it to splash rogue 7? would a 12/7/1 or 13/7 or similar build gain enough without a PrE, or find any PrE with disirable tier I benefits?

[dkyle]

They can do 7/5/5 (assuming racial capstones) or 6/5/5 without racial capstones (race, 2x class @ level 16; 30 points + 2x 25). You are able to take 2 class prestiges now, not limited to a single one. No reason why 3rd only has to be 1.

7/5/5 is out because that would cost 91 AP. 6/5/5 would work, but pure could go that way too, or 6/6/4.

But again, if you're not taking a tree from your multiclass, I don't think that really counts as a deep multiclass. Currently, Enhancements are a huge incentive to multiclass. If that's not the case anymore, then we will see fewer multiclasses.

[kingfisher]

This would allow pure builds of favored races a nice benefit and allow them to be more rangery (in this example) as they would actually be able to get tempest capped out easier and still have more to spend in other trees.


This may be a very good way to ensure the mastery... and the popularity... of staying pure... without weakening the obvious customizable benefits of going multi-class.

why dont ya'll just ask them to give multiclasses an xp penalty too while your at it?

[dkyle]

Whle the idea has merit. It benefits a splash itno the class that has the prestige but It does nothing for the pure class character with that racial. I know there's an ap spent cost but that was there with the old way too.

That's what the 26 level capstone is for. This would be a special capstone that only pure builds of the favored race could get, in addition to the normal capstone. It wouldn't be huge (say another 5% doublestrike on a Ranger, or another 5% or 10% HP on an SD), but it should provide a reasonable incentive.

[noinfo]

You could also tie in the TR system by having past lives count as 1 or 2 class levels each in a similar way.

On the day they give people a way to do this at end game by earning it. Though I would be ok with an Active past life feat allowing 1 level and completionist giving 2.

[dkyle]

On the day they give people a way to do this at end game by earning it. Though I would be ok with an Active past life feat allowing 1 level and completionist giving 2.

That sounds fair. A level for each and every past-life would be too much, I think.

[LeLoric]

why dont ya'll just ask them to give multiclasses an xp penalty too while your at it?

This really doesn't have much to do with multiclass, it has to do with a halfling barbarian being a better choice than a half-orc barbarian because they get access to another tree whereas the first doesn't.

It makes favored races kinda mean something.

[Cyr]

This is a clever idea.

We could also consider having additional points you put into the unlock enhancement treated you as if you were 3 <ranger/whatever> levels higher than you actually were, or something.

I really like the idea in premise so let's see how we can mess with it to make it better.


All 'class' PrE's granted to races grant six more effective levels in that class PrE for purposes of purchasing enhancements...There is no racial class PrE hybrids anymore as they use this more standardized idea. Of course this allows you to use one of your PrE tabs as that PrE even if you have no levels in the class to start with.
The free past life feats do the same thing as above, but grant one level per past life feat. All these effective levels for purchasing enhancements stack fully. Note, these effect all three class PrE's for the classes unlike the racial benefit.
Certain feats that were previously requirements for PrE's, but are likely to be stripped out under the new system grant an effective level increase for puchasing enhancements for those PrE's they used to be used to qualify for. These would vary based upon how bad the feats really are to begin with. I would suggest the three Tempest feats grant three levels each for example so a drow kensei 3 tempest 2 was still perfectly feasible, but a full tempest 3 would require the hefty time investment of three ranger past lives. For AA Mental toughness could count as three also (as it is pretty useless on most AA builds). Kensei likely will be losing any fighter specific feats, but those are actually good so they would grant one to two...
Certain Favor Rewards grant extra effective levels in specific class PrE's. To start AA should have two rewards for six effective levels each (for 18 total if an elf which is the top tier AA required in current game, but not a capstoned ranger bonus) from house Deneith favor. I suggest they come from the first two tiers as bonuses. This would of course allow others to dable as AA, but the most powerful ones would still be elves/helves. Much smaller level bonuses would be associated with other PrE bonuses from favor probably just one effective level at a time.
Specific and available only to the race PrE's could be developed later with full or partial unlocks available such as Scorpion Wrath and Warforged Juggernaut.
You would still be limited in purchasing enhancements by your total character level if it is lower then your effective character level (for example at first level with an elven ranger buying AA stuff they could only buy first level AA stuff).
Lastly, and most importantly you could only gain a total number of tiers in PrE's of a single class (with the tiers considered as each ten points) equal to your effective character level in that class or a specific PrE of that class if it is higher divided by six. You can still purchase any number of points worth of enhancements from those tabs, but you do not gain the free bonuses of the PrE's when hitting the 5/10/15/... marks. If the number of PrE's for a class exceeds this limit the most recently gained PrE is excluded with a red box around it on the UI indicating you are not gaining it. You can swap which PrE's you want to be active when you exceed this limit outside of quests at any time by using the UI. This filter performs the major limiting factor on class PrE benefits that may stack and cause issues in game.
An example of the last point as it could be confusing...

You have a Horc Barb 18/ 2 Fighter with two barb past lives under his belt.

His effective level for purchasing ravager enhancements is 26 (18 for barb levels, 1 for each barb past life, and six for being a HORC) and 20 for occult slayer and FB. For Kensei, SD, and Purple Dragon Knight he has a pitiful two.

You can purchase any number of points worth of enhancements in the fighter lines...but you never gain any free benefits from hitting X points spent in that tab such as the fighter PrE's.

You can purchase any number of points worth of enhancements in the barb lines. However, you only can gain the capstone from one of the three PrE's (as you are locked out of getting more then four tiers total of barbarian PrE tiers...capstone does not count for these purposes, but if you don't get the stuff below then you can't get the stuff after). So you could go Ravager 3, Ravager capstone, and if there are any other things higher on the level range that Eladrin dreams up you can get that too which I would recommend in the strongest terms...you then can also get the benefit of one tier of either FB or occult slayer. Likewise, you could go to capstone on either of the other barb PrE's instead and get one tier of ravager.

[waterboytkd]

When I first saw that enhancements were getting redone, giving melees a general boost, etc., I was very happy. But reading further and discovering how it is envisioned to be implemented, I'm extremely worried that deep multiclass builds will no longer be possible. This reeks of fixing something that isn't broken, and killing off 12/6/2 builds in the process by limiting characters to only 3 class trees.

I guarantee, if this enhancement update launches and I can no longer make the following build or something extremely close to or superior it (without sacrificing kensai 2, wand and scroll mastery 1, divine sacrifice 1, DoS 1, haste boost, healing amp, or human versatility), I will be leaving DDO for good. It's my main character which I have spent years grinding gear, tomes, and past lives for with a very specific self-sustaining, survivable, flexible, DPS and off-tank build role in mind. If it gets killed off just because someone felt like tinkering with something that already worked, it will be too much to bear.

Here's the trick with the 3 tree restriction: we don't know what's on trees. If every tree is made absolutely amazing, then the limit won't really feel like a restriction. But if the trees are composed of just the stuff we have now, but spread out, there will be lots of problems with multiclassing deep splash or mutt builds.

On the bright side, looking at the enhancements you want, I would imagine that Kensai 2 and Haste boost fall into the kensai tree, wand and scroll mastery probably fall in the mechanic tree, and DoS is the DoS tree, then healing amp and human versatility will be racial tree. The only one that might not fit is divine sacrifice, which as a smite, might fall under KotC tree. maybe not. BUT, even if it does, in order for this tree system to work, there should be something in the DoS tree to make up for losing that smite.

Again, I'm not too worried about the 3 tree limit because I'm putting the onus on the devs of making sure that every tree is a powerhouse in its own right, so that selecting 3 trees in a multiclass build is selecting the flavor/roles of the build, not restricting the power of the build (or at least, restricting it to sensible power levels, like multiclass builds are right now).

[Chai]

The Racial PrE combined with the three tree limit is the problem. If I've got a solid PrE from my primary class, plus a solid PrE from my Race, I have to find yet another PrE worth giving up not just levels (and tiers) of my primary class, but also a whole tree of enhancements from my primary class.

But my biggest concern is that as-is, a Dwarven Fighter SD makes very little sense, because it's a waste of the Racial PrE. SDIII Dwarven pure Monk? SDIII Dwarven pure Barbarian? SDIII Dwarven pure Favored Soul? All seem great. It's bizarre that SDIII Dwarven Fighter is redundant, and thus likely a poor choice.

Racial PRE allows people to multi-class heavily and still take t3 in defender in this example - thus encouraging multiclassing. Dwarven 13 rogue 7 barbarian SDIII.



That limitation doesn't exist at all in the current system. Be a Dwarf, go SDIII, and you can be a defender with any base class.

Or you could be defender with any 3 class combination and split adding up to 20 levels. Thus encouraging multiclassing that never used to be able to occur.


I would make Dwarven Defender weaker than SD, though. Still useful, but not so much it relegates SD to the backburner.

They already indicated that racial PRE will require higher investment, but did not indicate that racial PRE would be weaker.


Ranger is kind of an exception, since the feats it grants are so perfect for certain builds. You can multi Ranger without expecting to make use of its Enhancements. So it matters less that Elf and Ranger are redundant for Arcane Archer. But most deep multiclassing is all about PrEs.

Deep multiclassing to specific level splits NOW is about PREs. This DOES NOT have to be the case in the new system. We can open the door here to different splits being optimal or viable and shake free of the mentality of having to be 2, 6 or 12 levels of something. People will multiclass split where the enhancements are allowed to be taken which doesnt necessarily always need to be the same splits we have today. They can choose to focus on the class PRE, or they can choose to focus on the racial PRE which DOES NOT REQUIRE them to be a specific split in classes.

[JOTMON]

When I first saw that enhancements were getting redone, giving melees a general boost, etc., I was very happy. But reading further and discovering how it is envisioned to be implemented, I'm extremely worried that deep multiclass builds will no longer be possible. This reeks of fixing something that isn't broken, and killing off 12/6/2 builds in the process by limiting characters to only 3 class trees.

I've been here since the game originally launched and have never even suspended my sub the whole time, so yeah, this is a big deal. Please do it right, or don't do it at all.



This worries me as well, I have a lot of multiclass builds with various enhancement combinations.
I foresee a evlolution to a fixed tree choice similar to WOW which is unfortunate.

The draw to DDO for me (besides the DnD core ruleset) was the versitility in the builds, multiclasses and enhancements . If this evolves to the cookie cutter tree system it would not bode well.

I would much rather see the resources go into fixing bugs and already broken things in the game like handwraps, ladders, lag. etc.....

Revitalization of epic quests and different dragon raids(Gianthold/include epics), redo 70% of the epic items so they are actually epic and worth crafting.

Bring in druid class and other races..

and for the love of the gods do something to fix handwraps and release more weapons usable by monks.

Now if implementing the tree system does not screw up multiclass builds and exisiting enhancement combinations and will get us closer to the release of all the long over due PRE's then sign me up..... but don't forget about all the other stuff.

[orakio]

7/5/5 is out because that would cost 91 AP. 6/5/5 would work, but pure could go that way too, or 6/6/4.

But again, if you're not taking a tree from your multiclass, I don't think that really counts as a deep multiclass. Currently, Enhancements are a huge incentive to multiclass. If that's not the case anymore, then we will see fewer multiclasses.

What is the single most common multiclass in the game? /2 (rogue/monk) and it isn't done for the enhancements. Sure there are some beneficial enhancements along the way but people are doing it for evasion+umd+enhancements for rogue and evasion+bonus feat+maybe elemental stances for monk. After that the most common multiclasses are probably the 12/6/2 splits or variations you see and again those are currently typically done when going for things like that evasion splash and when a PrE is currently lacking a 3rd rank.

Enhancements are a huge incentive to multiclass but often not even the primary reason. You can't just assume that the new enhancement options within the trees will somehow be less appealing that some of those enhancement splashes are in the current system. Even if hypothetically 12/6/2 is less common it doesn't mean multiclassing is dead/weaker either, it just means the common splits may have changed.

Again the problem you run into with more trees though is more trees = more options and this lets a person cherry pick those enhancements and PrE bonuses. Like i tried to point out earlier there is no pure balance in this situation, somebody will come out with a slight edge but that edge all depends on the actual content that we have not seen the information on.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

why dont ya'll just ask them to give multiclasses an xp penalty too while your at it?

Multi-class does not mean you get everything in both classes, it means you voluntarily gave up training in one area to gain training in another. It mean you can do more things than a pure, but you cant outdo what a pure took all his training in. That gives YOU, not Turbine, the power to train wisely, or unwisely.

[dkyle]

Racial PRE allows people to multi-class heavily and still take t3 in defender in this example - thus encouraging multiclassing. Dwarven 13 rogue 7 barbarian SDIII.

Whether you multi-class heavily or stay pure, you get access to the same racial PrE. The benefit is the same in either case, so it favors neither heavy multi-classing or pure builds.


Or you could be defender with any 3 class combination and split adding up to 20 levels. Thus encouraging multiclassing that never used to be able to occur.

But that only makes sense if the split, itself, is actually better than going pure, or 18/2. And with how the trees work, that seems unlikely to work out that way, unless PrEs are dramatically more front-loaded than they currently are.

And again, under my proposal, you could be a Dwarven Defender, with any split adding up to 20 levels. The biggest difference is you wouldn't be daft to include more than a splash of Fighter among those levels.


They already indicated that racial PRE will require higher investment, but did not indicate that racial PRE would be weaker.

I didn't say otherwise. I think that Racial PrEs should be somewhat weaker than Class PrEs, under my proposed system where Racial PrEs are not clones of Class PrEs.


Deep multiclassing NOW is about PREs. This DOES NOT have to be the case in the new system. We can open the door here to different splits being optimal or viable and shake free of the mentality of having to be 2, 6 or 12 levels of something. People will multiclass split where the enhancements are allowed to be taken which doesnt necessarily always need to be the same splits we have today. They can choose to focus on the class PRE, or they can choose to focus on the racial PRE which DOES NOT REQUIRE them to be a specific split in classes.

We've been given no indication that class features will get a boost. We've been given every indication that enhancements will be getting huge boost, and be more important than ever.

Deep multiclassing is about PrEs now because PrEs are already awesome. Make them even awesomer, and that's somehow going to make deep multiclassing not be more focused on PrEs?

[Thrudh]

What is the single most common multiclass in the game? /2 (rogue/monk) and it isn't done for the enhancements. Sure there are some beneficial enhancements along the way but people are doing it for evasion+umd+enhancements for rogue and evasion+bonus feat+maybe elemental stances for monk. After that the most common multiclasses are probably the 12/6/2 splits or variations you see and again those are currently typically done when going for things like that evasion splash and when a PrE is currently lacking a 3rd rank.

Haste Boost enhancement on rogue is HUGE... Probably the only reason I would take 2 levels of rogue over 2 levels of monk.


Even if hypothetically 12/6/2 is less common it doesn't mean multiclassing is dead/weaker either, it just means the common splits may have changed.

Yes, that's true... And I'd love to see more variety in multi-classing... I was a bit sad when it became apparent that 18 or 12 or 6 splashes were pretty much the only way to go (for classes that had Tier III PrEs)

[Kielbasa]

I see a lot of people trying to overly complicate the new proposed system stop it please. In terms of racial prestiges don't have an enhancement cost to unlock them. Have an X number of enhancement points spent in your racial tree. This in turn reduces the number of points someone has for class trees while not destroying enhancement points. I see people complaining that minor splashes won't be able to get enhancements from those classes. To me this is fine because most of the time you splash for a class's core abilities not enhancements. For example you splash rogue for umd, trap skills, and evasion. There should be enough good enhancement options in the new system that the loss of minor sneak attack damage and haste boost shouldn't be an issue. For example Tempest now has haste boost In the new system deep splashes are still very viable you just have to know the benefits of your race and how the racial prestige will best combine with your class split. The new system will make people think why did I pick the classes/race that I did for multiclassing and what class strengths do I want to emphasize through enhancements.

[dkyle]

What is the single most common multiclass in the game? /2 (rogue/monk) and it isn't done for the enhancements. Sure there are some beneficial enhancements along the way but people are doing it for evasion+umd+enhancements for rogue and evasion+bonus feat+maybe elemental stances for monk.

I think I've been very consistent in expressing my view that deep multiclassing is mostly about PrEs, and such multiclassing will be severely curtailed. Splashes are obviously not about PrEs, and I don't think will see a significant change. They are very different kinds of multiclasses.


After that the most common multiclasses are probably the 12/6/2 splits or variations you see and again those are currently typically done when going for things like that evasion splash and when a PrE is currently lacking a 3rd rank.

Most common 12/6/2 multis include Kensai, FB, and Tempest, all of which have a third tier. But even if you're right, that would point to 12/6/2 splits being too weak compared to 18/2 or pure builds already. Let alone when the new system presents even more inherent penalties to deep multiclassing.


You can't just assume that the new enhancement options within the trees will somehow be less appealing that some of those enhancement splashes are in the current system.

I have absolutely no basis for believing that new enhancements will be more or less appealing for enhancement splashes. I do know that the system presents a huge additional cost to enhancement splashes that the current system does not have: the three-tree limit. Therefore, to the best I can analyze the currently available info, the new system will strongly discourage multiclassing for PrEs, compared to the current game.

[dkyle]

Multi-class does not mean you get everything in both classes, it means you voluntarily gave up training in one area to gain training in another. It mean you can do more things than a pure, but you cant outdo what a pure took all his training in. That gives YOU, not Turbine, the power to train wisely, or unwisely.

Multiclassing currently means giving up high level abilities, for low level abilities of a different class. It has never meant that you get everything in both classes, and noone is suggesting that it should. Do you believe multiclassing is too powerful currently? Particularly deep multiclassing for PrEs(so beyond a splash)? To me, the notion is ridiculous. I see vastly more pure and 18/2 builds than anything deeper.

The new system forces multiclassers to give up even more abilities of their primary class, in exchange for even fewer abilities of a different class. How can I not expect that this will make multiclasses far less attractive?

Sure, they could design the enhancements themselves to make multiclassing more attractive, but I have no reason to believe this. The available info points in one direction: deep multiclassing for PrEs is getting severely nerfed under the new system.

[Chai]

Whether you multi-class heavily or stay pure, you get access to the same racial PrE. The benefit is the same in either case, so it favors neither heavy multi-classing or pure builds.

No. When focusing on the RACIAL PRE, it ENCOURAGES multiclassing. If I want to be a SDIII, I have to be a fighter 18, or a Dwarf of ANY CLASS COMBINATION. If I choose Dwarf, I can be SD III with any mutt build I desire classwise.


But that only makes sense if the split, itself, is actually better than going pure, or 18/2. And with how the trees work, that seems unlikely to work out that way, unless PrEs are dramatically more front-loaded than they currently are.

Better is a matter of opinion. You might consider more DPS better where I could consider higher heal amp better, and we could build 2 completely different class split dwarves that both have SD III. This encourages multiclassing. No longer will people need to be 18 levels of fighter.


And again, under my proposal, you could be a Dwarven Defender, with any split adding up to 20 levels. The biggest difference is you wouldn't be daft to include more than a splash of Fighter among those levels.

Why place any limitation on it at all. Let the players decide whats important to them.


I didn't say otherwise. I think that Racial PrEs should be somewhat weaker than Class PrEs, under my proposed system where Racial PrEs are not clones of Class PrEs.

I feel the limiting factor should be the number of points one can spend.


We've been given no indication that class features will get a boost. We've been given every indication that enhancements will be getting huge boost, and be more important than ever.

Thus removing the current limitations on building 100% according to class in relation to PRE = encouraging multiclassing in a way that doesnt literally have to be 12, 6, or 2 levels of something to be "most useful".


Deep multiclassing is about PrEs now because PrEs are already awesome. Make them even awesomer, and that's somehow going to make deep multiclassing not be more focused on PrEs?

Correct, when focusing on the racial PRE, because the racial PRE will NOT be limited by class split. People would then have a choice to stay within the 12, 6, 2 focus of class split PRE, or they can focus on the racial PRE and build class splits unheard of in the current system, due to the power of the racial PRE not being tied to a specific class split system.

[Gulain]

Most common 12/6/2 multis include Kensai, FB, and Tempest, all of which have a third tier. But even if you're right, that would point to 12/6/2 splits being too weak compared to 18/2 or pure builds already. Let alone when the new system presents even more inherent penalties to deep multiclassing.


I think you have made some very compelling arguments at times in this thread, even if I don't necessarily agree with some of your interpretations. Any time there is a large systematic change in a game there is room for very large disturbances in the status quo that exists in the game. Large change usually makes people uncomfortable and I think leads to excessive worrying.

I will acknowledge that there is a possibility for 12/6/2 builds to decrease in effectiveness. I don't agree with your statement that they are too weak currently... in most cases they are considered extremely strong characters now. The reason being they tend to be more versatile and less focused than a pure or splash character is. 18/2 splashes are simply more common as they take less thought to plan out and provide bonuses that are both simple and very specific. I think that in many ways this will continue to be the case after these changes...

There are inherent penalties to multiclassing, especially the higher tier PREs now and capstones. However, there are still inherent bonuses to doing so otherwise people WOULDN'T DO IT. Post enhancement revision, just like now, players will need to evaluate the benefits and negatives to any multiclassing they do. It should require more though and planning than a pure class that already has a clear goal. Most of these characters will still be better soloers than your average 18/2 or 20 melee class (although maybe not more than silly tin-can arcanes). They just might be slightly behind in a specific group-role which seems perfectly reasonable exchange for the versatility that they do get.

[kingfisher]

Multi-class does not mean you get everything in both classes, it means you voluntarily gave up training in one area to gain training in another. It mean you can do more things than a pure, but you cant outdo what a pure took all his training in. That gives YOU, not Turbine, the power to train wisely.

locking a multi out of any basic enhancements of a class they have taken is unfair. this is not where multis differ from pures, they differ at the high end where a multi sacrifices the top tier of one class to gain the bottom tier of other classes. the 3 tree limit will punish multis. no problem with a pur getting a benifit for staying that way but you cant take away some of the benefits of multiclassing AND give more rewards for staying pure. you might as well pass out hearts and tell people to get pure or die. this tree thing reminds me of how wow is, "im a warrior but im dps specced not tank specced" is still just one class. i know its early still but thing whole thing reeks of a major nerf to multi's both by limiting them and further boostin pure builds. hopefully not.

[waterboytkd]

My thoughts on the Racial PrE thing:

I don't see it hurting multiclassing in the sense that a 12/6/2 build will be able to get a t3 PrE, even a capstone (i think) with a racial PrE. Right now, the only foreseeable problems with it are:

1) With regards to multiclassing, the 3 tree limit could be a bit rough if you want your racial PrE. That means you only get 2 trees for 3 classes. You will have at least 1 class, maybe 2, that you don't get to take enhancements from. How big a problem this actually is all depends on how thick the trees are with goodies. If every tree is simply stunning, then yeah, you are forced to make tough choices, but that's the nature of the game, right? Multiclassing is all about trade-offs, and if you want to be a deep multiclass/mutt and take your racial PrE, that's a strain you're putting on yourself.

However, if trees typically have 1 or 2 great enhancements that everyone wants, then just fluff no one really cares about, the 3 tree limit is going to be extremely unfriendly to mutt builds, and if you try to add in a racial PrE, it'll be absolute murder.

2) As it looks atm, with our extremely limited knowledge, there seems very little reason to make a dwarf fighter SD. There have been a number of interesting suggestions, but I think another, more mechanically simple, one is this: make sure every racial tree (not the racial PrE tree) has a slew of abilities that would be simply amazing with their racial PrE. This way, a dwarf fighter SD has a reason to be a dwarf (those unique racial enhancements), and has a reason to be a fighter over another melee class, like barbarian (it costs less AP to be a fighter SD than a dwarf SD, and if you want a bunch of racial enhancements to team up with SD, you don't want to be wasting them just unlocking the PrE).

Combine that with the idea that each PrE that is also a racial PrE could have a second capstone at 41 points that's race required (or its normal capstone could have a second bonus that's only unlocked if you're the appropriate race), and you could have some great incentives for a race to take the class that already offers it's racial PrE.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

the new system will strongly discourage multiclassing for PrEs, compared to the current game.

It's been said, many times in this thread, that it is way too early to make a valid case that new system is " strongly discouraging multiclassing". They are not going through all this work to give us less choices to Multi-class. There will be many good and many bad choices. That's the beauty & the beast of D&D for ya! This is coming closer to the way it was in 3.5e. Thats why many of us are cautiously excited.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

you might as well pass out hearts and tell people to get pure or die.

Ridiculous. You are looking too deep into the 8 ball. I'll be waiting for this to flesh out better so I can start planning my multis into the new system. Im not worried in the slightest. Far too early for doom.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

Unfortunately your post sounds like a demand or pre-emptive temper tantrum more than anything. They are completely overhauling the system because there are some very clear issues with some enhancements/PrE's and balance issues between melee and casters currently. It is something fresh and new and even the SIMPLEST character will have a little bit of change to them. If everyone had the same outlook you do on this change then nothing would ever happen and the game would stagnate.

I understand your frustration and love for the character you have but it is unreasonable to demand nothing to change for you and also assume that the game or your character would be worse for it. Keep an open mind and at least a bit more patience, no real need for ultimatums when we have next to no real information.



There are a lot of people out there with 12/6/2 or similar build splits who potentially could get hammered by tree restrictions. We don't know exactly how restrictive it will be yet, but I would say it is better to provide early feedback that it is an area the devs should be careful of. based on the little we do currently know, than to sit back and assume they will think of everything on their own and everybody will be happy. They are asking for feedback early in the process and I am giving it to them. It's not an ultimatum, it's real feedback that if my favorite character gets irreparably broken, I will almost certainly lose all interest in the game, regardless of how many other new options there are for other, different builds. And I'm probably not the only one who would feel that way.

I'm optomistic that it could all turn out for the better, given that they get the proper feedback early enough in the development cycle. We've seen countless times how it turns out if they don't get that feedback early enough.

[budalic]

I don't think it would be too overpowered to add extra enhanchment tab to multiclass characters for each class after first, that must hold one enhanchment tree of the class you have least levels in, in addition to current proposed system.

IE. Monk 12/fighter 8 might get additional tree for one fighter prestige only.

Don't know if it would be balanced, but it might be more tweaked by, say, getting extra tab only for classes you have more than X levels in. It would force a reset whenever your class with least levels changes, though.

[waterboytkd]

the 3 tree limit will punish multis.

It'll only punish multis if 3 trees that can't be maxed out is just too few desirable abilities. We have no indication that this will be the case. In fact, and what I'm kind of excited to see, this might even encourage more half builds (10/10, 11/9).

It's way too early to make any claims that this system does this or that right now. Voicing concerns is legitimate, saying this system will kill deep multiclassing isn't. We don't know that yet.

And MadFloyd was pretty clear that no matter what, they are going to make sure that multiclassing and customization of builds is going to survive. I believe he even shouted that at us. So making claims this kills deep multiclassing at this point is silly. Their intent is clearly not to hurt multiclassing. We have no indication one way or the other that this will negatively effect multiclassing. We just don't know enough yet.

[dkyle]

No. When focusing on the RACIAL PRE, it ENCOURAGES multiclassing. If I want to be a SDIII, I have to be a fighter 18, or a Dwarf of ANY CLASS COMBINATION. If I choose Dwarf, I can be SD III with any mutt build I desire classwise.

There will be a wider array of SDIIIs, sure. But just because you can be a mutt with SD III doesn't mean that mutts will ever be good options compared to pure 20 or 18/2 splits. You have to look at the dynamics of how pure 20, 18/2, and mutts operate, independent of the racial PrE, to come to some sensible conclusion.


Better is a matter of opinion. You might consider more DPS better where I could consider higher heal amp better, and we could build 2 completely different class split dwarves that both have SD III. This encourages multiclassing. No longer will people need to be 18 levels of fighter.

Just because they don't need to be 18 levels of fighter doesn't mean that deep multiclassing will be a good idea. Whatever split you can think of, I'm quite certain it would be more attractive in the system we have now, compared to pure builds, than in the new system. That's what I mean by discouraging multiclassing.


Why place any limitation on it at all. Let the players decide whats important to them.

Wait, what? I'm arguing against developer imposed limitations. Abolish the three-tree limit. Remove the implicit limitation produced by making Racial PrEs redundant with the class they come from.

I said fighter levels on an SDIII Dwarf would be daft not because I want it to be. Quite the opposite. That's the reality I expect given the current design where the Dwarf Racial PrE is redundant with Fighter levels.


I feel the limiting factor should be the number of points one can spend.

My rationale for making Racial PrEs weaker is to avoid having obvious races for certain builds. If, say, Dwarven Defender was just as good as Stalwart Defender, and stacked with it, it would make Dwarves too obvious a choice for Tanks.

Make it a less significant bonus, and other Races might be able to compete.


Thus removing the current limitations on building 100% according to class in relation to PRE = encouraging multiclassing in a way that doesnt literally have to be 12, 6, or 2 levels of something to be "most useful".

This only makes sense if you are entirely satisfied with your Racial PrE, and have no desire for class PrEs. Which, based on what we know, will be even more absurd than someone having no desire for class PrEs now. The Class PrEs stack with the Racial PrE. Why in the world wouldn't you want them?

What do you mean by "focusing" on a Racial PrE? Putting 41 APs in it? That still (likely) leaves plenty for a TierIII class PrE, or TierII and TierI class PrEs. You're making it sound like myopic focus on a Racial PrE will somehow be the way we approach multiclassing. That sounds completely ridiculous to me, given the info we have.


There are inherent penalties to multiclassing, especially the higher tier PREs now and capstones. However, there are still inherent bonuses to doing so otherwise people WOULDN'T DO IT. Post enhancement revision, just like now, players will need to evaluate the benefits and negatives to any multiclassing they do. It should require more though and planning than a pure class that already has a clear goal. Most of these characters will still be better soloers than your average 18/2 or 20 melee class (although maybe not more than silly tin-can arcanes). They just might be slightly behind in a specific group-role which seems perfectly reasonable exchange for the versatility that they do get.

Of course there are inherent penalties to multiclassing currently. I've never denied that. And there always should be.

My point is the new system dramatically increases the inherent penalties to multiclassing. Without knowing what the enhancements will actually be, and how large the bonuses they provide will be, I don't know if the full update will reduce multiclassing. But I can be quite confident that the penalties will be there, as long as the system works as currently described. The new system, by its nature, discourages multiclassing.


It's been said, many times in this thread, that it is way too early to make a valid case that new system is " strongly discouraging multiclassing".

No it isn't. If you see that the NFL has brought the verticals of the field goal post halfway closer together, is it too early to make a valid case that the new rules "strongly discourage field goals"?

Now maybe, it turns out, they've also permitted a new football stand that triples a kickers accuracy, thus encouraging them even more, on the whole. But the rule that brings the verticals closer together still discourages field goals. There's just another rule that encourages them more.

We know the enhancement tree system. It is plain as day that it increases the penalties for multiclassing. Whether other things happen that make a better case for it, I don't know. But why shouldn't I give feedback based on what we know? Why should I refrain from analyzing the system, as it stands? Why is assuming that all sorts of things that haven't even been hinted at will happen and make it work OK? And wouldn't it be easier to have an enhancement system that doesn't vastly increase the cost of multiclassing, and then try to make up for it on a PrE-by-PrE basis?

The only PrE we've seen does absolutely nothing to make it more amenable multiclassing than the current version.

[kingfisher]

Ridiculous. You are looking too deep into the 8 ball. I'll be waiting for this to flesh out better so I can start planning my multis into the new system. Im not worried in the slightest. Far too early for doom.

hey i said hopefully not, ;) but come on we have been through these types of changes with turbine before. yes its too early to tell, which i said, BUT if they limit you to 3 trees then multiclassing will be hurt, no way around it besides putting ALL of the lower end class enhancements in each class pre tree.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

Here's the trick with the 3 tree restriction: we don't know what's on trees. If every tree is made absolutely amazing, then the limit won't really feel like a restriction. But if the trees are composed of just the stuff we have now, but spread out, there will be lots of problems with multiclassing deep splash or mutt builds.

On the bright side, looking at the enhancements you want, I would imagine that Kensai 2 and Haste boost fall into the kensai tree, wand and scroll mastery probably fall in the mechanic tree, and DoS is the DoS tree, then healing amp and human versatility will be racial tree. The only one that might not fit is divine sacrifice, which as a smite, might fall under KotC tree. maybe not. BUT, even if it does, in order for this tree system to work, there should be something in the DoS tree to make up for losing that smite.

Again, I'm not too worried about the 3 tree limit because I'm putting the onus on the devs of making sure that every tree is a powerhouse in its own right, so that selecting 3 trees in a multiclass build is selecting the flavor/roles of the build, not restricting the power of the build (or at least, restricting it to sensible power levels, like multiclass builds are right now).

Yes, perhaps most of what I currently have will still be available to me, as well as some extra goodies I don't already have, and it will be as good or better than it is now. Hopefully that will be the case. But the tree limit definitely presents a danger that deep multi splits could be considerably weaker, and I sure hope they take steps to make sure that isn't the case. Hence, feedback in this thread.

[Dagolar]

First, get rid of the three pane limit. It's not necessary. There enough limits on multiclassing already. It feels like a UI restriction driving game design, and I don't think that's a good thing. Instead, just add tabs to the top. A tab for Racial General enhancements, plus the Racial PrE. Then, a tab for each class the character has levels in.

Second, make general class enhancement panes. Absolutely core things like stats, toughness, scroll mastery, and monk stances would go there. Any APs spent here would count towards the progression of the PrE pane with the most APs spent on it (in case of tie, prompt the user to choose their primary). The General Class enhancement pane would show up where the Racial pane shows up on the mockup, on each tab.

Third, Racial PrEs sound like they'll be game warpingly powerful. The choice of Race will mean far more than the choice of multiclass split, which is a radical departure from the game as it exists now, and a bad one, in my opinion. Race-Class combo is a less interesting choice than all the myriad possible multiclass combinations. Furthermore, they have the effect of actually discouraging the iconic Race-Class combos they're meant to represent. A Drow Tempest Ranger and Dwarven Stalwart Defender Fighter would likely be foolish unless the AP cost for those Racial PrEs is enormous.

I mentioned this earlier, but I'd like to flesh it out some more:

Instead of the carte blanche, all-or-nothing, racial PrE, add a Racial PrE enhancement line. This line would cost 1 AP per tier, and have 6 tiers, available at character levels 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, and 16. Each tier adds an effective level of the class the PrE belongs to, solely for the purposes of qualifying for that PrE's enhancements. These effective levels would stack with any actual levels of the class, although PrEs would still be limited by character level, not just class level. Furthermore, every Racial PrE would gain a "class level 26" capstone, that would essentially be dedicated to pure 20 builds of the specific race. Choosing to dedicate all class levels, and a racial PrE, to a single PrE is a huge investment, which gives up a lot of other options, so there should be some reward. But not enough to make doing so mandatory, of course.

The result should be that all Dwarves are capable of taking the first tier of SD, no matter their class picks, but if they want to be a full SDIII, they have to take at least 12 levels of fighter. They still get a lot of flexibility to multiclass the rest of those levels. And if a Dwarf wants to be the absolute paragon of a dedicated Stalwart Defender, they should go pure 20 Fighter. All, I think, are interesting build options.

As I said earlier, Elven AAs would get grandfathered in. Instead of providing Ranger levels towards the Ranger PrE, there'd be a true Elven PrE card for AAs that would be different from the Ranger AA PrE, as it is currently. Elves would get Archmage as their conventional Racial PrE, and would choose between Archmage and AA.

The tabs/no pane limit/inclusion of general class tabs would be the cleanest way to arrange the new system. I have to agree with that being the best course.
While the racial PrE emphasis wouldn't really be any less potent than in the current system, I can't argue your reasoning there either.

As far as grandfathering and +6 effective levels and all that.. that seems a bit more cumbersome, though.
While it works well to your point of focusing races to their PrE, it completely goes against your point of reducing the potency of racial PrEs.
Still, again, I have trouble arguing against the merits of it. But, perhaps, a better way to approach part of it:

Rather than add in a power-changing 'level 26' (or, rather, level 24, I suppose) capstone, how about offer unique racial capstone VARIANTS to the usual ones if you get full ranks in a racial PrE-associated PrE, that are slightly more potent than the normal? For example:
Current Fighter Capstone: Fighter Weapon Alacrity: +10% doublestrike, +10% attackspeed
Hypothetical Stalwart Capstone: Resolute Guardian: Actively generate a small amount of hate on all nearby enemies while in defensive stance. You retain all benefits of active blocking while defensively moving or tumbling. You gain an additional 10% hit points.
Hypothetical Dwarf-Only Stalwart Capstone: Dwarven Defender: Actively generate a small amount of hate on all nearby enemies while in defensive stance. You retain all benefits of active blocking while defensively moving or tumbling. You gain an additional 10% hit points, and an additional +3 to saves versus spells.

Alternative to a simple upgraded capstone, we could instead offer racial capstones as alternative choices, such as:
Choice 1: Resolute Guardian You have mastered the use of shields. You now have a 5% chance of deflecting or resisting any physical or magical attack while using a shield and actively blocking.
Choice 2: Dwarven Defender [As Above]

Clearly, these are just for example purposes, but I think they work to better effect than a stacking benefit.
After all, the more possible variations allowed, the more interesting the game is..

[waterboytkd]

This only makes sense if you are entirely satisfied with your Racial PrE, and have no desire for class PrEs. Which, based on what we know, will be even more absurd than someone having no desire for class PrEs now. The Class PrEs stack with the Racial PrE. Why in the world wouldn't you want them?

You know, I didn't really think about this. If a dwarf has SD racial PrE tree, and SD fighter PrE tree, and everything stacks, then all the static, non-stance-related bonuses of the tree can be obtained a second time. Effectively letting them be a Double Stalwart Defender.

Right there is a very compelling reason to be a Dwarf Fighter SD.

As for discouraging multiclassing, it only does so if 3 trees is just not enough trees to spend all your AP, given your reduced levels (and by this, I mean spend your AP on stuff you want, not fluff). Also, discouraging multiclassing is not the same thing as not encouraging it.

If there's a strong draw to be pure class, that's not discouraging multiclassing. That's encouraging going pure. The encouragement to multiclass is inherent in the system: access to a wider variety of abilities. If the system makes that not the case (which is the real fear of the 3 tree restriction), then THAT's discouraging multiclassing.

[waterboytkd]

Yes, perhaps most of what I currently have will still be available to me, as well as some extra goodies I don't already have, and it will be as good or better than it is now. Hopefully that will be the case. But the tree limit definitely presents a danger that deep multi splits could be considerably weaker, and I sure hope they take steps to make sure that isn't the case. Hence, feedback in this thread.

Exactly. I do think it's about time that Eladrin or MadFloyd got on here to share something, anything with us that they understand the fears around the 3 tree limit and that, if they can't give us specifics on why the limit isn't going to hurt multiclassing, then they should at least tell us that they will make sure it doesn't hurt multiclassing (and that if there's no way to avoid it hurting multiclassing, then they murder the tree limit).

[Meat-Head]

When I first saw that enhancements were getting redone, giving melees a general boost, etc., I was very happy. But reading further and discovering how it is envisioned to be implemented, I'm extremely worried that deep multiclass builds will no longer be possible. This reeks of fixing something that isn't broken, and killing off 12/6/2 builds in the process by limiting characters to only 3 class trees.

I guarantee, if this enhancement update launches and I can no longer make the following build or something extremely close to or superior it (without sacrificing kensai 2, wand and scroll mastery 1, divine sacrifice 1, DoS 1, haste boost, healing amp, or human versatility), I will be leaving DDO for good. It's my main character which I have spent years grinding gear, tomes, and past lives for with a very specific self-sustaining, survivable, flexible, DPS and off-tank build role in mind. If it gets killed off just because someone felt like tinkering with something that already worked, it will be too much to bear.

I've been here since the game originally launched and have never even suspended my sub the whole time, so yeah, this is a big deal. Please do it right, or don't do it at all.




According to my understanding of the new system, you absolutely WILL be able to make this build. This build may even be better than before. The only possible exception would be DoS I AND divine sac I. We just don't know yet how that one will play out. Will KoTC get exclusive access to divine sac? Or will will all Pallys? Furthermore, DoS MIGHT get something even better than they have now if their tree.

Anyway, at least for this build, I'm quite optimistic. :)

[Coldin]

Absolutely. Nothing against multi-classing, but staying pure must have a bigger benefit.

I heavily disagree. Pure classes should have "different" benefits, but not necessarily bigger or better.

[Chai]

There will be a wider array of SDIIIs, sure. But just because you can be a mutt with SD III doesn't mean that mutts will ever be good options compared to pure 20 or 18/2 splits.

Just because they don't need to be 18 levels of fighter doesn't mean that deep multiclassing will be a good idea. Whatever split you can think of, I'm quite certain it would be more attractive in the current system, compared to pure builds, than in the new system. That's what I mean by discouraging multiclassing.

This....



My rationale for making Racial PrEs weaker is to avoid having obvious races for certain builds. If, say, Dwarven Defender was just as good as Stalwart Defender, and stacked with it, it would make Dwarves too obvious a choice for Tanks.

Make it a less significant bonus, and other Races might be able to compete.

Contradicts this.

I say place no limitation other than number of points needed on builds. Let players decide what is good and what is not good.



This only makes sense if you are entirely satisfied with your Racial PrE, and have no desire for class PrEs. Which, based on what we know, will be even more absurd than someone having no desire for class PrEs now. The Class PrEs stack with the Racial PrE. Why in the world wouldn't you want them?

No, its not that absolute. It makes sense when focusing on the racial PRE while still using some stuff from the class based enhancements. Its another option that adds a dynamic to the game that currently does not exist.


What do you mean by "focusing" on a Racial PrE? Putting 41 APs in it? That still (likely) leaves plenty for a TierIII class PrE, or TierII and TierI class PrEs. You're making it sound like myopic focus on a Racial PrE will somehow be the way we approach multiclassing. That sounds completely ridiculous to me, given the info we have.

It sounds rediculous because youre still thinking within the limitations of 18,12,6,2 for building purposes. Its not rediculous to understand that someone can focus on their racial PRE and create a class split that focuses more on what levels the enhancements or feats they want from the classes happens. We see this already with Arcane Archer, as its currently the only fleshed out racial PRE. 11 ranger 9 monk is a pretty powerful build on a half elf. Ive seen it rip right through hallways full of mobs with manyshot and then provide good striker style DPS in the meantime.

Players who build to focus on the racial PRE will focus on splitting at levels that grant the feat(s) and or enhancement(s) they desire from that class, which is NOT LIMITED (key) to the 18-12-6-2 character design we see today.



My point is the new system dramatically increases the inherent penalties to multiclassing. Without knowing what the enhancements will actually be, and how large the bonuses they provide will be, I don't know if the full update will reduce multiclassing. But I can be quite confident that the penalties will be there, as long as the system works as currently described. The new system, by its nature, discourages multiclassing.

I disagree. The new system will allow people to multiclass beyond having to take 18 levels of the same class to get t3 of a desired PRE like we have to now in most cases. This will encourage multiclassing.

[dkyle]

You know, I didn't really think about this. If a dwarf has SD racial PrE tree, and SD fighter PrE tree, and everything stacks, then all the static, non-stance-related bonuses of the tree can be obtained a second time. Effectively letting them be a Double Stalwart Defender.

I should be more clear: Racial PrEs stack with other class PrEs. You can't be a double SD, in the current system. At least, as far as I know. The Dwarf just lets you add SD to your list of PrE options. Taking Fighter wouldn't add it again.


As for discouraging multiclassing, it only does so if 3 trees is just not enough trees to spend all your AP, given your reduced levels.

That assumes all AP spent are equal. If I'm spending APs on three trees that go all the way to level 20 (a pure build), compared to one level 20 tree (the Racial tree), a level 12 tree, and a level 6 tree. Which one is more likely to have more things worthwhile? In theory, the multiclass could have more good stuff, but it strikes me as being very unlikely. The great thing about multclassing currently is that, while you don't get the highest level stuff, you get more low level stuff to spread points among. With just three trees, the multiclass also doesn't get the highest level stuff, but can only spread points among the same amount of low level stuff. There might be some choice on what trees to lock in, but that's still more restriction than the current ability to spread APs freely, and I expect most choices of trees to be extremely obvious given race, primary class, and build goal.

The result I expect would be that the pure class can pick and choose the good enhancements, from level 1 to 20, while the multiclass ends up taking junk just because he has nothing else to spend his AP on.


Also, discouraging multiclassing is not the same thing as not encouraging it.

If there's a strong draw to be pure class, that's not discouraging multiclassing. That's encouraging going pure. The encouragement to multiclass is inherent in the system: access to a wider variety of abilities. If the system makes that not the case (which is the real fear of the 3 tree restriction), then THAT's discouraging multiclassing.

Encouragement and discouragement are exactly the same things, viewed from a different point of view. Encouraging pure discourages multiclasses, always. And vice versa.

[Chai]

You know, I didn't really think about this. If a dwarf has SD racial PrE tree, and SD fighter PrE tree, and everything stacks, then all the static, non-stance-related bonuses of the tree can be obtained a second time. Effectively letting them be a Double Stalwart Defender.

Right there is a very compelling reason to be a Dwarf Fighter SD.

If theres enough points to be t3 in both.

They already indicated that racial PRE will cost more investment than class based one.

THis would have to be able to hold threat as well. Investing everything in double PRE that grants the same mitigation benefits may mean it cant DPS its way out of a paper bag. If it cant hold aggro it wont hold water as a tank. We will have to see what this all looks like when its laid out before we can make those kinds of distinctions.

[Riggs]

That's why we'd need a mechanism to increase the cap. (The additional points spent part of the sentence.)

Or...remove the class requirements for many of the prestige lines.

Arcane archer - prerequisite is;
Being able to cast spells,
(x) Bow feats
(x) BAB to get tier 3.

Racial can give either a bonus, or reduced the cost requirement to qualify - i.e. tier 1 costs 10 points, 8 if an elf, tier 2 20 or 16 etc.

Then you can get to arcane archer as a ranger, human fighter/wiz, dwarf cleric/rogue even - that blew all their feats on bow feats - just an elf and/or ranger make sit easier and cheaper to qualify - not you MUST be an elf or ranger to qualify.

Add a lockout - one tier 3 and capstone per character no matter if you can afford it or not.

[MaxwellEdison]

I think all we'd really need is to see the current enhancement distribution for all 3 PrE's of a single pure class (whichever is currently fleshed out best). This would give us a starting point to examine exactly what kind of stacking enhancements across the PrE's the devs were toying with and we could then figure out how much of a gulf there would likely be from losing one of those trees. Showing the proposed AP costs (if anything other than 1) would also give us a lot of help in imagining how the whole system is intended to be balanced.

So what say the devs? We've already seen the preliminary Tempest/Dervish (hereby dubbed Tempish©) PrE bonuses. Have the tree mocked up along with DWS and AA?

[Riggs]

No:



A 16/2/2 build, if it takes a tree for each splash, would only be able get the 25-AP tier from their main class PrE, but absolutely no bonus PrEs from their splashes. And have a very limited selection of enhancements from those splash trees.


And again, my concern isn't primarily with splashes. I expect most to remain useful. It's with deep multiclasses done to gain PrEs.

Which is why I keep suggesting that the tiers not be completely tied to class levels. Just make the costs easier for some classes, but a 18/2 should be able to take tier 1 in their splash class if they can afford the pre-reqs.

Making it more expensive will sharply limit what people can do - but not exclude it. Want a human wizard 20 that has tier 2 assassin? Sure - but it is going to take all the feats/enhancements you have to do it, and you will be a much worse wizard. But you get that choice.

[Vormaerin]

Haste Boost enhancement on rogue is HUGE... Probably the only reason I would take 2 levels of rogue over 2 levels of monk.


I see this more as a problem with the current Haste boost than anything else. If a particular enhancement is so good its practically mandatory, it might be worth considering whether it is too good.

[Meat-Head]

Exactly. I do think it's about time that Eladrin or MadFloyd got on here to share something, anything with us that they understand the fears around the 3 tree limit and that, if they can't give us specifics on why the limit isn't going to hurt multiclassing, then they should at least tell us that they will make sure it doesn't hurt multiclassing (and that if there's no way to avoid it hurting multiclassing, then they murder the tree limit).


^^ This.


There is a legit concern, as far as I can see so far, that splashed may limit enh.

Example.

18/2 Barb/Rog

The barb is going to want haste boost from Rogue. But the barb is NOT going to want to "waste" a tree slot JUST for that...

This creates a difficult choice that we DON'T CURRENTLY HAVE TO DEAL WITH. I see how some can say that this discourages multis. This is the basic reason why some are calling for no tree limit. OR having a general class tab.

I'm still positive about these changes overall. But I feel like a dev should address this concern.

[Thrudh]

I see this more as a problem with the current Haste boost than anything else. If a particular enhancement is so good its practically mandatory, it might be worth considering whether it is too good.

It's not quite mandatory though... I spent a lot of time deciding on my paladin if I wanted to splash two levels of monk or two levels of rogue... Two feats is pretty huge to a paladin...

It wasn't an easy decision. Right now, the two evasion splashes are very well balanced in my mind.

[Meat-Head]

It's not quite mandatory though... I spent a lot of time deciding on my paladin if I wanted to splash two levels of monk or two levels of rogue... Two feats is pretty huge to a paladin...

It wasn't an easy decision. Right now, the two evasion splashes are very well balanced in my mind.

Agree with this 100%.

[Riggs]

Whle the idea has merit. It benefits a splash itno the class that has the prestige but It does nothing for the pure class character with that racial. I know there's an ap spent cost but that was there with the old way too.

One thing I don't like about the system is it kinda gives favorite classes nothing and in fact somewhat penalizes them for those races as they don't get anything in extra whereas a non favored class still get's access to an extra tree and all it's enhancements.

A possible fix to this dilemma is maybe treat someone who already has the class and racial combo gets a scaling number of virtual points spent in that tree.

Example: A drow ranger gets lets say 2 virtual points spent for every 4 levels taken in ranger. These just count towards the total points spent they aren't additional action points that can be used for anything else. So a 20 drow ranger essential gets 10 free points towards tempest.

This would allow pure builds of favored races a nice benefit and allow them to be more rangery (in this example) as they would actually be able to get tempest capped out easier and still have more to spend in other trees.

That is probably the best way - racial favored class gives you a cheaper way to get to the goal, freeing up points to spend on other things and still get a tier 3/capstone.

The assumption is that enhancements become more useful than most of them are now - so if you spend 10 points on 'general' enhancements - you are getting something of a similar, but slightly less power of a tier 1 prestige class.

10 points should be 10 points of power - not "I had to spend 10/20 points on trash just to get 1 good thing - but most of those spent points are wasted on my character". Which currently is the case in a lot of pre-reqs.

[grodon9999]

That is probably the best way - racial favored class gives you a cheaper way to get to the goal, freeing up points to spend on other things and still get a tier 3/capstone.

The assumption is that enhancements become more useful than most of them are now - so if you spend 10 points on 'general' enhancements - you are getting something of a similar, but slightly less power of a tier 1 prestige class.

10 points should be 10 points of power - not "I had to spend 10/20 points on trash just to get 1 good thing - but most of those spent points are wasted on my character". Which currently is the case in a lot of pre-reqs.

What about humans? They get it for all? They don't have a favored class.

[Riggs]

The Racial PrE combined with the three tree limit is the problem. If I've got a solid PrE from my primary class, plus a solid PrE from my Race, I have to find yet another PrE worth giving up not just levels (and tiers) of my primary class, but also a whole tree of enhancements from my primary class.

But my biggest concern is that as-is, a Dwarven Fighter SD makes very little sense, because it's a waste of the Racial PrE. SDIII Dwarven pure Monk? SDIII Dwarven pure Barbarian? SDIII Dwarven pure Favored Soul? All seem great. It's bizarre that SDIII Dwarven Fighter is redundant, and thus likely a poor choice.



if the higher level class enchancements, in this case fighter and/or dwarf - are actually good - say you can take +4 strength, extra damage bonuses, extra defences - completely ignoring what prestige you took - then people should not have to feel that "I am totally wasting my last 20 points because I have nothing to spend it on - because the fighter/wizard/cleric/whatever level 16+ enhancements are so good that I get good use from them even if they are not attached to any particular prestige line".

Most or all of the worries about wasted points, or not having enough prestige lines would be reduced significantly if all AP were useful instead of only some of them.

[Failedlegend]

What about humans? They get it for all? They don't have a favored class.

Actually they do...its Any..they get to choose one

The more I think about Dkyle's idea the more I like it...the only problem is it would require the races to have actual PrEs not just duplicates like the one's I mentioned earlier...mind you I view that as a good thing.



Dwarf: Dwarven Defender (Different than SD & DoS, have it add % DR, Immunity to ALL forms of knockdown and bonus saves vs. spells or something)

Warforged: Juggernaut & Reforged (gives you the choice to go more or less construct-like)

Halfling: Arcane Trickster (essentially a rogue/wiz mix that lets you open locks, disable traps, pick pockets at range and adds SA to Touch & Ray spells)

Half-Orc: War Chieftan or something (sorry don't really know half-orc lore much)

Elf: AA & Eldritch Knight (Eldritch knight would reduce ASF, Increase CL and BAB w/ the capstone completely eliminating ASF and making BAB 20...throw in a special ability or two and your golden)

Drow: Scorpion Wraith (again don't really know much about Drow lore-wise so I'm jsut going with whats others said)

Human: Can choose any racial (Except Juggernaut/Reforged, Eldritch Knight & Half-Elf Racials)

Half-Elf: Get a different racial based on dilettante choice..IOW if you have the Pally Dilly you can choose HotD, DoS or KoTC. Also has free access to AA of course (doesn't need ranger Dilly)

Every race also gets a few enhancement lines to improve dragonmarks (some bonuses would lock out other bonuses)


Another alternative is to use Racial PrEs to implement what could be consider "Multi-class" or "Race Specific" PrEs like Juggernaut, Reforged, Eldritch Knight, AA, Arcane Trickster, Sacred Fist, Dread Pirate,etc.

Something Like this

Dwarf: Dwarven Defender & Sacred Fist

Warforged: Juggernaut & Reforged (gives you the choice to go more or less construct-like)

Halfling: Arcane Trickster (essentially a rogue/wiz mix that lets you open locks, disable traps, pick pockets at range and adds SA to Touch & Ray spells)

Half-Orc: Dread Pirate (Kind of like a warrior bard w/ Sea Skills)

Elf: AA & Eldritch Knight (Eldritch knight would reduce ASF, Increase CL and BAB w/ the capstone completely eliminating ASF and making BAB 20...throw in a special ability or two and your golden)

Drow: Black Flame Zealot (again don't really know much about Drow lore-wise so I'm jsut going with whats others said)

Human: Can choose any racial (Except Juggernaut/Reforged, Eldritch Knight & Half-Elf Racials)

Half-Elf: Get a different racial based on dilettante choice..IOW if you have the Pally Dilly you can choose HotD, DoS or KoTC. Also has free access to AA of course (doesn't need ranger Dilly)

[dkyle]

This....

Contradicts this.

No it doesn't. Precisely because I think shifting the important choice to race-class, instead of multiclass splits, is a bad thing. When multiclass split is the focus of the build, we can choose among most races to use with it. There might be one we think is the best, but for most current builds, most races can work. Under the new system, most builds will absolutely require a specific race (allowing a swap for Human/Half-elf, possibly).


I say place no limitation other than number of points needed on builds. Let players decide what is good and what is not good.

So then do you mean that the maximum potential of the Dwarf PrE should be the same as SD III, but it should cost much more?


It sounds rediculous because youre still thinking within the limitations of 18,12,6,2 for building purposes. Its not rediculous to understand that someone can focus on their racial PRE and create a class split that focuses more on what levels the enhancements or feats they want from the classes happens. We see this already with Arcane Archer, as its currently the only fleshed out racial PRE. 11 ranger 9 monk is a pretty powerful build on a half elf. Ive seen it rip right through hallways full of mobs with manyshot and then provide good striker style DPS in the meantime.

I'm pretty sure enhancements play a major role in monk-based archer builds. How many trees do you think the enhancements on those builds will end up being split among?

Once we can stack together Assassin III, Arcane Archer V, and TempestI on a Halfling pure Ranger, do you really think an Arcane Archer V, Tempest I, Ninja Spy I is going to still have much appeal? Or a Ravager III, Arcane Archer V, Tempest I on Half-orc pure Ranger, supposing that Ravager does indeed get some kind of crit multiplier increase that includes ranged and melee?


Players who build to focus on the racial PRE will focus on splitting at levels that grant the feat(s) and or enhancement(s) they desire from that class, which is NOT LIMITED (key) to the 18-12-6-2 character design we see today.

Currently, feats and class features are so underpowered compared to PrEs that they are rarely the point of a deep multiclass. The new system will make PrEs even more powerful. making feats and class features even more underpowered compared to PrEs. Just because we have a Racial PrE that we can "focus" doesn't mean Class PrEs have nothing to offer us. I just don't see people passing them up Class PrEs that are even more powerful than the ones we have now, for class features that we have no indication will get any significant improvement. If anything, with PrE feat prereqs getting toned down, multiclassing for feats will become much less attractive. If I don't need Weapon Focus on my Warchanter anymore, for example, I doubt I'd still splash for Fighter, especially if I can't even reasonably use the handful of enhancements it currently gets me.


I disagree. The new system will allow people to multiclass beyond having to take 18 levels of the same class to get t3 of a desired PRE like we have to now in most cases. This will encourage multiclassing.

It discourages going 18 levels of the PrE's class, but that only acts as an encouragement to all other builds, not just multiclassing builds. How multiclasses stack up compared to pure or 18/2 builds is what will determine how "encouraged" they themselves end up being. While the set of all builds that aren't 18+ fighter becomes more attractive thanks to the Racial PrE, that doesn't mean the set of all deeply multiclassed builds becomes more attractive.

[Riggs]

That's what the 26 level capstone is for. This would be a special capstone that only pure builds of the favored race could get, in addition to the normal capstone. It wouldn't be huge (say another 5% doublestrike on a Ranger, or another 5% or 10% HP on an SD), but it should provide a reasonable incentive.

Classes already would still be getting their level 20 capstones one would assume.

Add in a prestige capstone at 41 AP )or less AP if of the favored race).

Adding in a 3rd capstone would be pretty huge I would argue.

5% stacking doublestrike is far from insignificant. 5-10% more hp - on a build that is going to be assumed to already be topping 900-1000 hp...well 100 more hp is pretty huge.

Racial lines were already looking overpowered yesterday, but that seems to be tempering. Something that is LESS than a past life feat would be reasonable - not something that is several times better than a past life feat (If PL barb gives 10 hp - a racial capstone should at best give 10 hp, not 100 for example - or if PL fighter gives +1 to hit and dc's, no racial capstone should give more than a +1 in something).

[dkyle]

Classes already would still be getting their level 20 capstones one would assume.

I doubt it. Where would it go? There's no general class enhancements.

I'm pretty sure the only capstones in the current system are the PrE capstones.


5% stacking doublestrike is far from insignificant. 5-10% more hp - on a build that is going to be assumed to already be topping 900-1000 hp...well 100 more hp is pretty huge.

They are aren't supposed to be insignificant. They come at the price of staying pure instead of multiclassing 6 levels of another class, while still gaining the primary class's TierIII PrE, and capstone! That's a big benefit to be counter-balancing.


Racial lines were already looking overpowered yesterday, but that seems to be tempering. Something that is LESS than a past life feat would be reasonable - not something that is several times better than a past life feat (If PL barb gives 10 hp - a racial capstone should at best give 10 hp, not 100 for example - or if PL fighter gives +1 to hit and dc's, no racial capstone should give more than a +1 in something).

That would make them pitifully weak. TR benefits should be minor, because if they aren't, then end up producing an insurmountable gap between long-time players and new players. PrEs are available to everyone, though.

Still think the answer is that Racial PrEs should not be Class PrEs, but their own thing. My Favored PrE idea may or may not be necessary, but I think it would work.