Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[dkyle]

Ok been following this for a while and haven't said much because frankly we don't have enough info to make a legitimate desicion one way or the other but I am worried about the 3 pane limit not only because of multiclassing but also because of stuff like Monk stances for example...is this going to be split up into different PrEs does ninja spy get earth & fire than shintao gte wind & water and mystic get i dunno fire and water...cause thats broken...there really should be a tab for stuff like that even if its only a few things.

Yes, Monk Stances are a big problem. I can see two likely outcomes:

1. Put them in Henshin. It makes sense lore-wise, but would be awful for multiclassing monks. It also means that all Monks would be putting points (and quite a few of them) into Henshin, since the stances are just too good to pass up.

2. Split them among the PrEs, as you suggest they might do. But what goes where? I'm not so confident that Ninja Spy would get Earth, since Ninja Spy is the Developer Designated "Rogue-ish" PrE, while Earth is the Developer Designated "Tanking" stance. Fire, in spite of its mechanical affinity to Ninja Spy, strikes me as a Developer Designated "light" element, especially given the Jidz-tet'ka bonus. I expect Wind to go to Ninja Spy (Dex going to the Rogueish PrE). Water is hard to say, but given the Jidz-tet'ka "poison" bonus, Ninja Spy makes some sense. I really have no idea what Henshin would get. Maybe Fire (given Oremi's set), and Water (just because the worst stance would inevitably be one of the ones that gets duplicated)? I think all of this is a very bad idea, though, as it shoehorns in certain combinations of PrE and Stance.


So, what do I think they should do?

Simplest option (at least conceptually) would be a General Monk enhancement tree, that all monks (multi'd or not) get free access to. Put the stances there. But that's kind of boring.

I think the more interesting option would be to create new sets of stances, for each PrE. Henshin gets the current Elemental stances, Shintao gets ones themed around the positive+elemental quasielements, and Ninja Spy gets ones themed around the negative+elemental quasielements. The general "purpose" of each stance would be similar (so Earth, Mineral and Dust would all be the tanking stance, adding to CON), but there'd be variation in how, specifically, they operate. Maybe Mineral is more about percentage bonus HP and healing amp, instead of damage percent mitigation, while Dust provides an incorporeal miss chance, stacking with shadow fade, with a higher percent than Earth's damage percent mitigation (so, better for avoiding physical attacks, but not useful against spells).


Why? I mean, SERIOUSLY, WHY?

I cannot think of a single reason why we can not change our enhancements as often as we like. If all I want to do is stand at a trainer and redo my enhancements, why not?

Beeing able to change a characters enhancements as often as you like does in no way break any game mechanic or anything. It is just a lame and annoying limitation.

And how often have you realised just as you closed the chat with the trainer that you made a silly mistake somewhere that you have to live with for 3 days.....?

Get rid of artifical and silly limitations like this :rolleyes:

He said he was removing the timer. You just pay some more plat. You really think that's onerous?

Frankly, I'm not too sure about removing the timer. It turns things like Savants from a major decision that's supposed to be something you live with long-term, into something you can change on a per-quest basis.


I have not played any pnp 4.0, but for those who have, it *seems* to me that the contemplated changes to the enhancement system would move it into that direction, can someone familiar with 4.0 comment on that?

It bears no resemblance to 4E mechanics, at least not any more than PrEs already resemble 4E's Paragon Paths more than they do 3.5's PrCs.

[katz]

i am excited about this change. it is POTENTIALLY one of the better things to happen in the game since i started playing. but there is also potential for much fail and angst. i humbly request the devs tread carefully in their zeal to fix things.


that being said, i have a few concerns about a few tid bits that have been let slip. my main is a halfling 16 bard (warchanter)/2 rogue /2 barbarian. at first i was quite excited at the prospect of something crazy like warchanter/assassin/ravager (and here just a couple days ago i was asking how i could up my DPS, :p ) however... it's been mentioned that "extra songs" comes from virtuoso (currently planned. not concrete. i understand this). and caelbro made the observation of the probable tree origins of some of the rogue enhancements.

my current loadout gives me rogue haste boost, maximum extra songs (giving me 21 total with my warchanter TOD set), maximum song duration, and song of makers (WAY too useful in Cannith area). i'm not keen on the prospect of losing certain aspects of my favorite character. and i'll admit i'll be honestly p*ssed off if i have to LR/TR her to make her viable after this change.

some concessions i know i'll probably have to make. things change. i know this and i accept this, but some things i think are too important to lock away to be used only by one tree


i *am* giddy of the prospect of my dwarven pale master gaining stalwart defender, tho. she was already on her way to being an arcane tank. XD

[MaxwellEdison]

The two main problems I see are Sorcs and Monks.

Take monks for starters. The two current PrE's are literally polar opposites of each other. Would this new take on enhancements allow a Shintao Ninja Spy? If so, should it?
It doesn't really make sense from a lore perspective, and having ToD alongside Tomb of Jade/Dismissing Strike/Kukon-Do seems close to, dare I say it, gamebreaking. Do you have anything mocked up yet for this?

As for sorcs, the savant lines actively resist one another. Is the plan to split them into Fire/Water and Earth/Air with half the tree locking out the other half while Acolyte takes up the third?

[dragons1ayer74]

After more investigation and reading some comments and concerns I hope that these improvements are considered:
1. Make changes and have a "General Class" tree for each class so in the end a single class character could choose from (General Class, Racial, and up to 3 Prestige trees).
2. No ability is on more than 1 tree. A "General Class" tree will allow this to work and vastly help with balance.
3. Multi Class character would add on the “General Class” tree for each class taken but would still be limited to 3 prestige trees.
4. The Prestige trees are not tied to class level but might be tied to other requirements (X points spent in this tree, Base Attack Bonus, Alignment, Base Skill of X, Feat Requirement, etc).

[Thrudh]

The only issue is that a multiclass character might not be able to take everything he wants because it might be spread across too many trees. I'm not sure that's a real problem, though. Decisions are an important part of balance and creativity, too. If the class feats and abilities aren't enough to justify a splash without the enhancements, it might not be worthwhile in the future.

On the other hand, you are going to be able to build different types of multiclass characters than you can now. It doesn't seem like flexibility is being lost. Just the parameters of the options are being changed.

This is probably true, but it's a pretty big change to the game.

[dkyle]

Half-Orc: Ravager Monk?

On this note, please, pretty please, make Ravager work with unarmed, Devs, even if the ToD ring continues to not work. If not, please don't make it the Half-Orc PrE. I've got a vested interest in this, as not getting Racial PrE on my Monk would be really disappointing, but in general, the racial PrEs should be as widely useful as possible, to mitigate the shoehorning they naturally encourage..


Racial prestiges should be attained 2 levels later than class ones.

That's next to nothing. All that will do is discourage even two level splashes.

[macubrae]

My main is a capped fighter(below), but by far my favorite toon to play is my halfling frenzied/kensei/tempest. Some will say it's a gimp build, but I say it is FUn. He has the favored weapon bonus, greater TWF, and rages for tough fights. Also, with the new tree system, he will be impossible to build. Out of the twenty plus toons I have across three servers, he has leveled the fastest.

Self healing, hard hitting, foaming at the mouth, halfling dualing khopeshes and quikly approaching cap will be obsolete. He sunders and has tripped giants, has good saves and by the devs is there anything faster? Barb speed, +30% stride, House P amulet, and ranger haste boost. When he gets his boots of propulsion he's going to break the sound barrier.

He's my favorite for a reason and now all I can do is throw my hands up and wait for him to be destroyed.

Needless to say, I probably won't renew my VIP status. I've played D&D for almost thirty years, this is my prefered game setting, with the monsters I've fought since I was thirteen, and DDO has been great filler for the part of me that needs this entertainment. I guess my days are numbered. I like making flavor builds and making them work. Most are not made for epic content and I'm fine with that, I avoid the monotonous grinds. I just can't be happy with a cookie cutter, we've made the decisions for you, dumbed down(IMO) build. I hope that the people that you are pacifying are properly rewarded, from what I've seen in this thread, I will not be.

P.S. Just because you want 10 million subscribers like WOW, doesn't mean you need to be a WOW wanna-be. Alot of us are here because we didn't like WOW.

[nibel]

As I understand, getting one level in a class will open to you the whole 3 trees of this class. The only thing that requires more class levels are the prestige bonus.

If I'm correct, a 1 rogue splash should be capable to get the full sneak attack damage enhancement of the assassin tree. But if he do not get 6 rogue levels, he dont get the assassin bonus enhancement.

If the plan is that, then multiclass will be as effective as today. Maybe more. You'll do sacrifices of losing the capstone enhancement as today (Probably the 41 pts capstone requires 20 levels on class), but you can get more powerful enhancements than an actual one level splash can provide you. Eg, all barbarian 18/fighter 2 may get haste boost 4.

=========================================

Second, about racial pre trees: Did you thought of throwing it away and developing Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm) "prestiges" to cover if you spent a lot of points in racial enhancements.

Other suggestion to avoid the fight on dwarven/warforged SD is making the racial lines slight different than the fighter SD. Let's say... WF SD have squares for extra fortification and repair/heal amplification. Dwarven SD have a square for saves/HP. So, a pure fighter Dwarf/WF may want to dabble into their racial line even if it is only for a few enhancements.

[mystafyi]

That's next to nothing. All that will do is discourage even two level splashes.

I think you missed the part where he said racial pre's, not class pre's.

[Dexol]

Whilst im loving what im seeing and thinking up silly builds like Halfling Dragonmarked Light Monk Assasin and Radiant servant spellsinger i do think we have all overlooked the headache this is going to be for one poor man

Ron, good luck on updating the character planner (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO/)!:eek:

[dkyle]

I think you missed the part where he said racial pre's, not class pre's.

Didn't miss that, but yeah, brain fart, still. Splashing wouldn't lock out the level 20 part of the Racial PrE.

I still don't think a 2 level delay is enough to make Racial PrEs anything other than a near-total replacement for deep multiclassing.

[voodoogroves]

Didn't miss that, but yeah, brain fart, still. Splashing wouldn't lock out the level 20 part of the Racial PrE.

I still don't think a 2 level delay is enough to make Racial PrEs anything other than a near-total replacement for deep multiclassing.

This may not be true.

Just take a gander at the Half Elf Arcane Archers. Most of them these days are 12/6/2 builds ... with 12 being fighter, ranger, monk, etc.

[dkyle]

As I understand, getting one level in a class will open to you the whole 3 trees of this class. The only thing that requires more class levels are the prestige bonus.

If I'm correct, a 1 rogue splash should be capable to get the full sneak attack damage enhancement of the assassin tree. But if he do not get 6 rogue levels, he dont get the assassin bonus enhancement.

My impression was that the enhancements in the tree would have level requirements, just like current non-PrE enhancements have. But we haven't gotten confirmation of this.

If you're right, that boosts the viability of splashes quite significantly. Deeper multiclasses as well, but to less of an extent.

Even then, giving up a PrE worth of bonus enhancements will be a big cost.

[Thrudh]

Splashing character classes to get prestige class bonuses is the multiclassing philosophy right now. Changing that damages the game.

Well it changes the game. Not sure yet if it damages the game.

Might be a good thing... I've gotten used to the 18/12/6 splits, but I remember lamenting the fact that all multi-classes would be built around those splits going forward.

If 17/3 or 16/4 builds become useful again, that might open up some more options for us.

[aerendhil]

oh-my-God.

I'm quite happy about that evolution but ...
It means I will not TR until it goes live.
I'd be too afraid to mess a toon because of a wrong levels split !

[Thrudh]

Instead there are at present loads of Enhancements that are totally pointless, priced totally wrong, with weird pre-reqs, and we have vast differences in Enhancement power between both classes and races. It is a mess. (Not to mention us having less than half of the PrE tiers.) A large and thorough pass through this is great IMO.

I agree that a full pass through enhancements is NOT a waste of time.. I'm very glad they are focusing on this.

[Thrudh]

I have spent three years perfecting and equipping an Old School Crit Rage Bowbarian. The proposed changes to enhancements leave me very nervous indeed even with the ''maybe's and ''possiblies'' from Eladrin later in this thread

They should have deleted that enhancement long ago... And you should have known that your character might someday lose it.

Good news is, Ravager may have crit range enhancements, so you might be much better off (finally able to respec your enhancements)

[katz]

Whilst im loving what im seeing and thinking up silly builds like Halfling Dragonmarked Light Monk Assasin and Radiant servant spellsinger i do think we have all overlooked the headache this is going to be for one poor man

Ron, good luck on updating the character planner (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO/)!:eek:

poor Ron! :eek:

he's gonna have to totally reprogram

[Thrudh]

Why? I mean, SERIOUSLY, WHY?

I cannot think of a single reason why we can not change our enhancements as often as we like. If all I want to do is stand at a trainer and redo my enhancements, why not?

Because then a sorc could switch between fire and cold at will, depending on which quest he's doing next. I could switch from Kensai (for epic DPS) to Stalwart Defender (for tanking a raid).

Switching enhancements at will is just as bad as letting someone change feats at will or change class levels at will.

[Razcar]

Multiclass characters will surely be impacted under the proposed system. How much they will be affected will vary on a case by case basis.
That was the entire reason for this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4251555#post4251555) post and the conversation that followed. While the suggestion in that post would still be restrictive to a certain degree, it would be MUCH less restrictive than the current proposal.
I agree that 5 trees would be OK. Maybe have 4 trees, 3 class and 1 race, for characters with 2 classes (or less of course), and if you have a 3-class MC you will open up the 5th class tree.

[Calebro]

My impression was that the enhancements in the tree would have level requirements, just like current non-PrE enhancements have. But we haven't gotten confirmation of this.

If you're right, that boosts the viability of splashes quite significantly. Deeper multiclasses as well, but to less of an extent.

Even then, giving up a PrE worth of bonus enhancements will be a big cost.

We don't know yet. The implication is that some will and some will not, but the word "can" makes it vague enough that we're not sure yet. They probably will, would be my guess.



Enhancements that are unavailable to the player are greyed out. Enhancements can still have feat or class level prerequisites – if a player does not meet these prerequisites, a red border or lock display is added to the icon. This should not be subtle, it should be absolutely clear to the player that there’s something wrong here, and they need to do something if they want this enhancement. Players can figure out what requirements they’re missing by viewing the tooltip.

[Darkrok]

First of all, to the dev's: Thank you for the outstanding communication. This is an ambitious effort and it sounds like unlike some changes in the past we are actually early enough in the process to have the opportunity to communicate and affect some change.

Now, my plea. It's a small thing but it will make a big difference for one of my toons. We're going to be able to take multiple class pre's now. I REALLY want to be a good teammate and take Spellsinger's sp regen when this goes live. But I can't justify it on a Warforged bard because it remains broken. :( Please fix this in time for the new system! :)

[dkyle]

This may not be true.

Just take a gander at the Half Elf Arcane Archers. Most of them these days are 12/6/2 builds ... with 12 being fighter, ranger, monk, etc.

If it weren't for the three-tree limit, I'd be confident that such builds would remain attractive. With it? I'm not so sure.

But a Ranger 6 splash is just about the best case scenerio, as it's actually about the feats, already, not the enhancements. So you aren't locked into using up a tree on a class with only 6 levels-worth of enhancements. I'm trying to think of another splash that deep that's not about taking a PrE, and coming up blank.

[Thrudh]

I don't think that 3 way multiclasses are going to be as negatively effected as some people may think. How often do you currently do small level multiclasses purely for the sake of enhancements? The variety of class enhancements currently for 1-3 levels in a class is next to nothing, and certainly no PrE's, so there really won't be any sacrifice by not choosing that tree.

People splash Rogue for evasion and UMD, but also for Haste Boost and +3 sneak attack damage.

Divines splashing a melee often pick fighter for Haste Boost, or Barbarian for Sprint Boost.

My 12/6/2 monk/ranger/fighter uses Haste Boost, Stunning Blow enhancement, and +1 STR from the fighter levels.

I'm okay with this changing, but this is a big change.


If anything it would increase the viability of those types of builds (17/2/1 or other builds that don't hit 18 in a primary class) by allowing access to more or higher tier PrE's than you had access to before. Of course we have no real information other than what was posted about tempests but, it seems odd to me think that those small splits will somehow be worse off for enhancements.

Hmmm.. this is a good point... So if we splash 1 level of fighter, we have the ability to take Stalwart Defender or Kensai all the way to the top? That does open up some interesting possibilities...

With only 4 class tabs thogh, the 3 class multi-class may die off. Seems to me that the 2 level multi-class will be the way to go, since the way it's described, many people will want two trees in their main class... (If Kensai has the STR boosts, and the Haste Boosts, my SD fighter multi-class is going to have to lock in both Kensai and SD)


Overall I am extremely excited to see what happens primarily because I have wanted to see the PrE's finished for so long and because rebalancing some of the costs of certain enhancements and classes has been overdue as well.

Me too.. I'm very willing to accept a large change in game-play for finished PrEs and updated costs on enhancements.

[NytCrawlr]

T...the new Thief-Acrobat and Mechanic trees are solid.

This makes me happy. :)

Might bring a friend back too.

[Calebro]

Hmmm.. this is a good point... So if we splash 1 level of fighter, we have the ability to take Stalwart Defender or Kensai all the way to the top? That does open up some interesting possibilities...

No. You'd still need 6 levels of Fighter to get SD from a Fighter tree. That much has been confirmed. The racial tree is the only way to get it all the way to the top on a non-fighter build.

[Cyr]

This is probably true, but it's a pretty big change to the game.

Yup, which will KILL existing builds.

This entire thing sounds like one giant slap in the face to existing toons the more I read about it. Everyone's power level is going to increase, but some combinations are going to be dramatically better then others.

So let me explain why Eladrin's description of the system will disapoint and annoy players.

Limiting different enhancements to certain trees is the main problem here. By doing this a player is forced to gut the versatility of a multi-class build whose main build purposes are often very well thought out to harmonize well.

It also causes an even more serious problem then potentially destroying multi-class builds of various types. This problem is comes from the wasted potential dillema. Essentially a player who has a certain build concept will spend points in a PrE tree that does effectively nothing for them when they hit 10/20/30 AP. Ranger is a GREAT example of this. Deepwood sniper and AA are mediocre on the first tier or so for a melee ranger. Yet, a tempest ranger is really going to probably want to spend some points on FE enhancements in the deepwood sniper tree. Rogue will suffer a similar problem with mechanic (which has a horrible PrE unless you are building a specific repeater build) and acrobat (again pretty mediocre unless you are building a specific staff build). Basically these sorts of sub-optimal losses from spending in PrE trees that grant you little to no extra benefit will mean that these builds will be sub-optimal. What is worse the only way that they have a saving grace is if special developer attention is paid in a precise manner to help them. Basically the player's builds become even more a thrall of the developers whims and time tables.

Now, the three class PrE limit comes into play. This further guts deep multi-class builds making them pretty much untenable as they currently are built. I am sure there will be a few which will be dreamed up under the NEW RULES, but existing builds will have a very hard time of it.

So now we come to the next wrinkle. Some general enhancements are being including in multiple trees and are going to stack. Any logical observer will know that this system being proposed is a power increase already across the board. Stacking though is a whole other animal. If truly critical things are put as stacking then you have one of two issues pop up...either you give half the benefit or so in both trees and force people to spend in both trees diluting their final build except in the cases of strong synergy which will be the uber builds...or you let them stack away with same benefits leading to large stat inflation. Stat inflation is dangerous of course, but another two points of strength is not going to break the game...another 50% electric damage might though...now really think about this logically...would electric damage be limited to electric savant??? well that would not work for wizards for sure...so wizards have archmage, wild mage, and pale master all presumably with electric damage...jeez that is more then 50% more electric damage...unless all of them can only purchase lesser tiers and every wizard in the game has to spread out their expenses in all three schools to be decent with any damage spell...I assume people see the issues here...

Now comes the final and most brutal problem. The uber builds and what they will look like.

Well we do not know for sure, but we DO KNOW that multi-class builds will have some pretty severe issues spending points effectively to get full PrE benefits. We also know that racial PrE's will be king because simply put they will allow for two tier 3 PrE's from two different classes or a lesser tier of racial PrE and two tier 3 class PrE's. The synergy for these will be great for certain things. These builds will predominantly be racial + 18-20 level of same class. This is a simple math equation of 30+30+?racial or 40??+30+?extra. This of course comes from the top heavy nature of most PrE's. If more PrE's provided flat benefits such as SD then this would be less critical. Casters of course will have even more reasons to remain pure/mostly pure under this new system having gained SD as a great racial option for defense if they want or becoming stronger more focused casters. So at the same time that multi-class builds will be taking it on the chin and many different racial builds are looking pretty weak there will be certain really incredible builds.

This does not seem well thought out. In fact, it seems like it was barely thought out as to it's effects on existing toons and it's distorting effects on the current game.

[maddmatt70]

I must confess that I am a little more nervous about some of the changes today then yesterday. My main character, Rabiez, is a healing warchanter. Will I be able to do that very easily with your new enhancement system? Bard Song Magic 4 will likely not be on the same tree as warchanter, but perhaps will be on the spellsinger tree thus making it more difficult for me to create that character with your new enhancment system. Its character customization like for characters like Rabiez that do not fit the typical mold, but yet are very effective that this new enhancement system makes me nervous.

[Cyr]

Hmmm.. this is a good point... So if we splash 1 level of fighter, we have the ability to take Stalwart Defender or Kensai all the way to the top? That does open up some interesting possibilities...

With only 4 class tabs thogh, the 3 class multi-class may die off. Seems to me that the 2 level multi-class will be the way to go, since the way it's described, many people will want two trees in their main class... (If Kensai has the STR boosts, and the Haste Boosts, my SD fighter multi-class is going to have to lock in both Kensai and SD)


No Thrudh. Every description we have been given indicates that class based PrE's will be limited by your level in the class as before (while racial PrE's will look at your total level instead).

[Hafeal]

ty both.


No this has NOTHING to do with 4e

Bad =/= 4e and honestly it doesnt deserve the reputation but too many people feel change = bad.


It bears no resemblance to 4E mechanics, at least not any more than PrEs already resemble 4E's Paragon Paths more than they do 3.5's PrCs.

[Failedlegend]

I think the more interesting option would be to create new sets of stances, for each PrE. Henshin gets the current Elemental stances, Shintao gets ones themed around the positive+elemental quasielements, and Ninja Spy gets ones themed around the negative+elemental quasielements. The general "purpose" of each stance would be similar (so Earth, Mineral and Dust would all be the tanking stance, adding to CON), but there'd be variation in how, specifically, they operate. Maybe Mineral is more about percentage bonus HP and healing amp, instead of damage percent mitigation, while Dust provides an incorporeal miss chance, stacking with shadow fade, with a higher percent than Earth's damage percent mitigation (so, better for avoiding physical attacks, but not useful against spells).


I REALLY like this idea. Sure the "General" tab would work but this would give us FAR more variety

If the devs were to follow this general idea for all classes/PrEs I'm sure it would work out (and from the Tempest+Dervish example I think they are)



Oh and somewhat related issue...I feel sorry for Ron this completely destroys his awesome character builder

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Eladrin, I think what the community is looking for is a comment or commitment that none of the current builds will be broken. (..as far as what they can do. I realize the names and math of enhancements will change, go away, be improved etc.)

In my mind, your changes should allow all toons to do what they were doing before, the same or better.

I'm not sure that you can guarantee this, but a comment relative to what I'm suggesting might be a good idea.

[Vazok1]

I am against a flat 3 tree limit. I think you have had a serious failure of imagination on this point.
However I recognise that it is needed for balance issues, I also recognise (as I'm sure you do) that we splash builds with another class regularly in order to gain xx at the cost of xx.

For example, 12fighter/6barb/2rogue sacrifices the fighter capstone, tier 3 prestige, several feats and many other high level enhancements/class abilities in exchange for evasion (to an extent, depending on reflex saves), umd and tier 1 barbarian prestige/enhancements. usually the fighter would then pick up some level 2 rogue enhancements, for example damage boost, and wand and scroll mastery I in order to augment the other class abilities he gained from the 2 rogue. Given the 3 tree limit he would not be able to do that without considerable loss, kensai would take up 1 tree, barbarian another, then he would have to chose between a few points into rogue, or a few points into fighter/barb enhancements he wanted that were not in the kensai/barb trees.

I see why this is being done as we'd end up with some 8/6/6 split ruling all combining lots of damage boosting features in that set-up.

My suggestion would be instead of having a tree locked as soon as we put a single point into it would it work to have the tree lock once you pass 4 points in a tree? that cuts you short of the first prestige (at 5 I believe) but would still allow us to pick up those little abilities that allow us to specialise our characters in what we desire. and if you feel an ability is too powerful to be accessible by a 2class splash. put a 5 spent pre-req on that tree for that enhancement, very easy to balance, very easy to implement.

For example, wand and scroll mastery allows us to specialise more into self healing at the cost of 2 levels of rogue. fair swap in my opinion. however even that self healing boost is not worth it if you lose access to an entire other tree just so you can put that 1 action point in there for 1 ability. so that pushes us back into the norm of being healed by someone else and while I hate the term it is pushing us towards more ''cookie cutter'' builds under the guise of greater choice.

I don't believe I am the only one who really values these 1ap additions to builds which allow so much more versatility and fun with your character.

[Fegof]

I'm a little worried that they are changing the system in order to charge TP for enhancement slots. So as FTP you would have space to get Haste Boost II but to get HBIV you would need to spend cash to open those slots.

The non-paranoid part of me is eager to see what kind of new builds will come out of this.

[Ziindarax]

Yup, which will KILL existing builds.

This entire thing sounds like one giant slap in the face to existing toons the more I read about it. Everyone's power level is going to increase, but some combinations are going to be dramatically better then others.

So let me explain why Eladrin's description of the system will disapoint and annoy players.

Limiting different enhancements to certain trees is the main problem here. By doing this a player is forced to gut the versatility of a multi-class build whose main build purposes are often very well thought out to harmonize well.

It also causes an even more serious problem then potentially destroying multi-class builds of various types. This problem is comes from the wasted potential dillema. Essentially a player who has a certain build concept will spend points in a PrE tree that does effectively nothing for them when they hit 10/20/30 AP. Ranger is a GREAT example of this. Deepwood sniper and AA are mediocre on the first tier or so for a melee ranger. Yet, a tempest ranger is really going to probably want to spend some points on FE enhancements in the deepwood sniper tree. Rogue will suffer a similar problem with mechanic (which has a horrible PrE unless you are building a specific repeater build) and acrobat (again pretty mediocre unless you are building a specific staff build). Basically these sorts of sub-optimal losses from spending in PrE trees that grant you little to no extra benefit will mean that these builds will be sub-optimal. What is worse the only way that they have a saving grace is if special developer attention is paid in a precise manner to help them. Basically the player's builds become even more a thrall of the developers whims and time tables.

Now, the three class PrE limit comes into play. This further guts deep multi-class builds making them pretty much untenable as they currently are built. I am sure there will be a few which will be dreamed up under the NEW RULES, but existing builds will have a very hard time of it.

So now we come to the next wrinkle. Some general enhancements are being including in multiple trees and are going to stack. Any logical observer will know that this system being proposed is a power increase already across the board. Stacking though is a whole other animal. If truly critical things are put as stacking then you have one of two issues pop up...either you give half the benefit or so in both trees and force people to spend in both trees diluting their final build except in the cases of strong synergy which will be the uber builds...or you let them stack away with same benefits leading to large stat inflation. Stat inflation is dangerous of course, but another two points of strength is not going to break the game...another 50% electric damage might though...now really think about this logically...would electric damage be limited to electric savant??? well that would not work for wizards for sure...so wizards have archmage, wild mage, and pale master all presumably with electric damage...jeez that is more then 50% more electric damage...unless all of them can only purchase lesser tiers and every wizard in the game has to spread out their expenses in all three schools to be decent with any damage spell...I assume people see the issues here...

Now comes the final and most brutal problem. The uber builds and what they will look like.

Well we do not know for sure, but we DO KNOW that multi-class builds will have some pretty severe issues spending points effectively to get full PrE benefits. We also know that racial PrE's will be king because simply put they will allow for two tier 3 PrE's from two different classes or a lesser tier of racial PrE and two tier 3 class PrE's. The synergy for these will be great for certain things. These builds will predominantly be racial + 18-20 level of same class. This is a simple math equation of 30+30+?racial or 40??+30+?extra. This of course comes from the top heavy nature of most PrE's. If more PrE's provided flat benefits such as SD then this would be less critical. Casters of course will have even more reasons to remain pure/mostly pure under this new system having gained SD as a great racial option for defense if they want or becoming stronger more focused casters. So at the same time that multi-class builds will be taking it on the chin and many different racial builds are looking pretty weak there will be certain really incredible builds.

This does not seem well thought out. In fact, it seems like it was barely thought out as to it's effects on existing toons and it's distorting effects on the current game.

Agreed, and the more the developers continue to ignore posts such as these highlighting the flaws in their planned system (and even offering suggestions for improving the it), the more convinced I am that they're going to implement this as planned (and nothing most of us who have genuine feedback/concerns say or do will change it).

The Devs wanted feedback for their system; it would be nice if they stopped cherry-picking the responses that favor their system (or show a general acceptance for it as it is currently planned). Hopefully, they will prove me wrong, and more emerging details will reveal that my concerns have been over nothing.

[bhgiant]

DOOOOOMMMM!1!!!!!1!
We need to remember this is a very early preview, hardly something to draw conclusions on. The Devs clearly want our feedback and help on this or they wouldn't have shown us 6 months before it's set to come out.

If it's done correctly, a "general" enhancement tree won't be needed for each class. The separate prestige classes will have a specific focus in mind (Kensai = melee dmg, Defender = tank etc) so it may work. So if done correctly, multiclassing won't die but rather be enhanced (the devil is in the details as always, too soon to see). What I can't figure out is how a general enhancement tree go toward prestige requirements? If you choose one prestige that it goes into, you could spend a lot of points in the general line, have those points go toward an untrained prestige, and hypothetically still get a tier or two. Having a general enhancement tree would just confuse and complicate matters rather than make them more simple I think.

My thoughts as it is right now is that each vertical tier beyond the first will be every 4 levels, so at 4, 8, 12, and 16, totaling 5 tiers. Prestige horizontal tiers will still be class level appropriate every 3 levels, at 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 and the capstone at 20. Is this correct?

[Thrudh]

We also know that racial PrE's will be king because simply put they will allow for two tier 3 PrE's from two different classes or a lesser tier of racial PrE and two tier 3 class PrE's. The synergy for these will be great for certain things. These builds will predominantly be racial + 18-20 level of same class.

This is a very good point... I think the new racial PrEs may be just too strong.

Right now, race is a flavor choice. In the future, it may become way too important for builds.


This of course comes from the top heavy nature of most PrE's. If more PrE's provided flat benefits such as SD then this would be less critical.

I would like to see them flatten out PrE benefits more. Power Surge at level 6 Kensai (increasing linearly in power at 12 and 18). Frenzy at level 6 FB (increasing linearly in power at 12 and 18)

[Thrudh]

Eladrin, I think what the community is looking for is a comment or commitment that none of the current builds will be broken.

Oh I don't know if that's necessary or even possible with the scope of these changes.

[mystafyi]

Eladrin, I think what the community is looking for is a comment or commitment that none of the current builds will be broken.

this is a pipe dream. many builds will be broken requiring folks to buy hearts of wood to respec.

[Thrudh]

My suggestion would be instead of having a tree locked as soon as we put a single point into it would it work to have the tree lock once you pass 4 points in a tree? that cuts you short of the first prestige (at 5 I believe) but would still allow us to pick up those little abilities that allow us to specialise our characters in what we desire. and if you feel an ability is too powerful to be accessible by a 2class splash. put a 5 spent pre-req on that tree for that enhancement, very easy to balance, very easy to implement.

For example, wand and scroll mastery allows us to specialise more into self healing at the cost of 2 levels of rogue. fair swap in my opinion. however even that self healing boost is not worth it if you lose access to an entire other tree just so you can put that 1 action point in there for 1 ability. so that pushes us back into the norm of being healed by someone else and while I hate the term it is pushing us towards more ''cookie cutter'' builds under the guise of greater choice.

Good post!


I don't believe I am the only one who really values these 1ap additions to builds which allow so much more versatility and fun with your character.

Exactly. I have splashed ranger or barbarian occasionally JUST to be able to spend 1 point for Sprint Boost. :)

[Cyr]

I would like to see them flatten out PrE benefits more. Power Surge at level 6 Kensai (increasing linearly in power at 12 and 18). Frenzy at level 6 FB (increasing linearly in power at 12 and 18)

Yes, well it seems they are kind of going the opposite direction of my idea of splitting up PrE so you can pick and choose the parts you like and instead placing more emphasis on getting the perfect point allocation between PrE's to get the most PrE's possible to high tier.

[Failedlegend]

I'm a little worried that they are changing the system in order to charge TP for enhancement slots. So as FTP you would have space to get Haste Boost II but to get HBIV you would need to spend cash to open those slots.


ummmm...where did you get that idea?

[Fegof]

It would be another way to increase revenue. LOTRO already does something similar with traits. For FTP accounts I think you get 2 traits slots and then have to spend TP to unlock more. I'm not suggesting DOOM!!!, but I bet there is a bean counter somewhere who has already thought of it.

[mystafyi]

It would be another way to increase revenue. LOTRO already does something similar with traits.

stop giving them idea's fgs

[seventyseven]

i have 4 characters that would lose their crit rage 2. i do not appreciate having my patience squandered this way.

[Ziindarax]

stop giving them idea's fgs

He has a point, and may even be right. Though I would rather quit DDO than submit to a pay-per-tree scheme - Pay-to-win does not sit well with me.

[Thrudh]

i have 4 characters that would lose their crit rage 2. i do not appreciate having my patience squandered this way.

(1) You might get it back through the Ravager line (plus all the stuff you've missed out on for the past 3 years)

(2) Come on, you knew that enhancement wouldn't last forever... Besides FB is a lot better than Critical rage unless you have FOUR archer barbarians.

[MaxwellEdison]

What if instead of selecting the tree in each pane of the enhancement window, you have three for each selected class that you swap all at once. You can spend points in any of the trees (up to class level limits) but each pane would let you set if you want to activate the Prestige Class bonuses, up to three.

This way you do not lock out enhancements from splash levels, and the 1% of players that purposefully don't want a PrE at all (why, I can't fathom) are not forced to.

[Calebro]

What if instead of selecting the tree in each pane of the enhancement window, you have three for each selected class that you swap all at once. You can spend points in any of the trees (up to class level limits) but each pane would let you set if you want to activate the Prestige Class bonuses, up to three.

This way you do not lock out enhancements from splash levels, and the 1% of players that purposefully don't want a PrE at all (why, I can't fathom) are not forced to.

I approve of this message.
1} It contains all of the current functionality that we presently have.
2} It adds in some of the functionality that is idealized by the trees conceptually.
3} It keeps the following quote true.

Customization of builds remains super important. Amongst other previously stated goals, we hope for this overall change to increase the number of viable build options, not reduce them.

+1 for Murder. Simple and elegant. It's the best idea this thread has seen in 50+ pages.

[Vordax]

For the love of god give us (warforged) juggernaut (http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/warforged-juggernaut) not stalwart defender (http://ddowiki.com/page/Stalwart_Defender_enhancements).

You do know that the Juggernaut gains immunity to healing spells right?

Vordax

[seventyseven]

(1) You might get it back through the Ravager line (plus all the stuff you've missed out on for the past 3 years) you ASSume too much. they are specific builds. i didn't miss out on anything, i just kept those toons' enhancement lines.

(2) Come on, you knew that enhancement wouldn't last forever... Besides FB is a lot better than Critical rage unless you have FOUR archer barbarians. i do have 1 of those too. the diversity/ versatility of these toons goes moot with thoughts like yours. why shouldn't it continue? i've refrained from adjusting the points on my toons. so can you. besides FB requires feats, my toons are already setup without


thanks for your support.

[Havok.cry]

What if instead of selecting the tree in each pane of the enhancement window, you have three for each selected class that you swap all at once. You can spend points in any of the trees (up to class level limits) but each pane would let you set if you want to activate the Prestige Class bonuses, up to three.

This way you do not lock out enhancements from splash levels, and the 1% of players that purposefully don't want a PrE at all (why, I can't fathom) are not forced to.

Virtual+1, given out to much in 24 hours.

[voodoogroves]

You do know that the Juggernaut gains immunity to healing spells right?

Vordax

People who really optimized it got around that either by only dipping the PRC or by making sure nothing survived more than a round or two.

[GoldyGopher]

This morning after thinking about this topic last night, discussing it in guild, and talking to other players I have to admit I am both excited and concerned about the prospect of what this might bring.

My first concern has to do with power creep. Sorry after reading this I have concluded (whether it is correct or not) that Turbine is grabbing those players on the bottom and pulling them to the middle, grabbing those in the middle and pulling them towards the top, and unfortunately strapping a rocket booster on to the character designs that need the least amount of help and propelling them into a new orbit.

While we play a game that has pretty close to infinite possibility for character designs the reality is we have a few cookie cutter designs that work in the current game. I’d argue about 6 to 10 with a couple variations of each based up class/racial makeup. To me this change isn’t going to make more designs viable rather it is going to solidify those 6 to 10 cookie cutter designs as the leaders.

What leads me to this conclusion is how the devs had described access to enhancements under the tree model. To me it seems as if the Racial and Class Trees are TOO LIMITING to allow characters to effectively pick and choose what matches their play style and ideas for characters.


In my opinion to make more play styles and characters viable to the game we need to have improved AI Scripting, improved Ranged Attack (Damage), viable AC builds in Epic content, More variations in Mobs (AI and Stats) and the list goes on and on. The question that needs to be asked is what is a Warpriest or Arcane Archer or Deepwoods Sniper or … bringing to the table at End Game.
What a character brings to the table shouldn't be always about DPS and Healing. Crowd Control, Tanking, Damage Mitigation, trash duty, Buff, Debuff, short term DPS, long term DPS, and so on and so forth also have to be included.
So the question to me becomes how does this enhancement change bring about more viability of character builds without solidifying a small number of builds as the most viable.
I understand there will always be better builds, and players more suited to play one style over the other, but the current system clearly has best builds, average builds and bad builds.

My next thought is how does this change effect multi-class characters and the reasons we choose multi-class characters in the first place. I have a character that was designed to be the highest DPS under a flanking condition, assuming a Tank Could hold Agro. Of course the change to TWF and Crit modifiers stop my playing of that character.
the problem is we choose the class and layouts based upon what we could and couldn't do. While my character is notas viable as it once was it still makes sense, if suddenly I no longer have access to a point of Dex or Flanking Bonuses or ... because of how the new enhancement trees are laid out I would be very concerned.

Will multiple class characters be able to take PrE to completion even though they aren't level 18 in that class?

What about Capstones?
It appears we will now have access to a Racial Capstone (Arcane Archer whoopie?) and three PrE Capstones but not a Class Capstone?

How do Past Life Feats play into this?
I believe that Past Life Feats should have the ability to be enhanced in a new enhancement system.

I think all characters should have access to every enhancement regardless of class, race and anything else people suggest. However I think that things like Race, Class, Alignment, Selected Feats and other choosen fields should greatly impact the cost of those enhancements. As an example every Race has access to Dex Enahncements at a cost of 4, 5, 6, 7 AP per +1 to the Dex Stat. However an Elf would have the costs at 2, 3, 6, 7. (The exact points would need to be layed out later)

I also feel thier are some issues with the layout as presented.
With that in mind I would like to present a rough mockup of what I would like to see. Using a multi-class Character.
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~jjohnson/images/Enhancement-Selected.jpg
The first tab shows where I have spent points. I could spend additional AP points on things I have already selected.

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~jjohnson/images/Enhancement-Stat.jpg
The second tab is for enhancements that effect my core STATS and things like AC and HP

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~jjohnson/images/Enhancement-Skill.jpg
The third tab is specifically for effects that deal with skills in game. I realize most classes probably won't use this screen often but a few will.

I think I will skip the rest of the tabs as I am getting way long in the tooth.

[red_cardinal]

You missed the point. It is not all about UI. It is about making the planning process of building a toon much easier. It is about dumping useless "pre-requisites" to get a PrE or other enhancements. If this process if going to speed up finishing all the PrEs, it should be encouraged.


No, I didn't. I merely suggested that devs don't revamp GUI, that they use the current GUI, so they would have more time to deal with implementation of enhancements.



This is a thread for providing constructive feedback. So far you have given none. We dont need your "mockings".

You didn't read the whole thread. You just peeked a bit inside. :)

[Darkrok]

this is a pipe dream. many builds will be broken requiring folks to buy hearts of wood to respec.

And honestly this is ok with me...IF they do the right thing here and give a free heart of wood to fix any feat issue. Class-mix issues I'm a bit less concerned with - if you built a 12/6/2 something because there was no T3 pre at the time well...you knew it was coming eventually. We didn't know there was a complete change of the entire character system though.

Character builds do not last forever. That's a part of why I stayed pure on my Warforged Bard - so that when changes like this come along I might be able to get by with a feat swap only or possibly just an enhancement swap.

[LeLoric]

I must confess that I am a little more nervous about some of the changes today then yesterday. My main character, Rabiez, is a healing warchanter. Will I be able to do that very easily with your new enhancement system? Bard Song Magic 4 will likely not be on the same tree as warchanter, but perhaps will be on the spellsinger tree thus making it more difficult for me to create that character with your new enhancment system. Its character customization like for characters like Rabiez that do not fit the typical mold, but yet are very effective that this new enhancement system makes me nervous.

I think for your case you will probably be better off. 41 ap spent to get warchanter and it's capstone. That leaves 39. This means you can spend 30 to also get spellsinger III and it's extra sp effects just by picking up the stuff designated to spellsinger that you already use. Ir you could maybe just get enough for spellsinger 1 and maybe virt 1 or a racial prestige.


now if you were a splash build and wanted stuff out of fighter and rog as well as all three of the bard trees that's where you'd be kinda screwed.

[red_cardinal]

And honestly this is ok with me...IF they do the right thing here and give a free heart of wood to fix any feat issue.


Forget free heart of wood, set option for every account for every character in the main menu to 'Reincarnate' and do lesser reincarnation on that ship.

[mystafyi]

And honestly this is ok with me...IF they do the right thing here and give a free heart of wood to fix any feat issue.

iirc MadFloyd already said they were going to give out a feat swap token to toons effected. hearts of wood were never mentioned.

[Ganolyn]

http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx93/Corbomite/glum.jpg


Sorry, I couldn't resist. :) The idea sounds good and the structure is definitely an improvement, but the devil is in the details though and I hope they test the hell out of this with real players before carving it in stone.

[dkyle]

iirc MadFloyd already said they were going to give out a feat swap token to toons effected. hearts of wood were never mentioned.

I don't see anything from MadFloyd. You might be thinking of Eladrin's statement about removing Improved Fortification, and giving those who had it a feat swap token. But that's different than having feats that no longer apply to enhancements as they once did.

I do certainly hope that this will come with LR+0 hearts. Bind them to character, and give them an expiration date if need be. But such a sweeping, universal change to the game could end up looking like a money grab otherwise.

[red_cardinal]

I think for your case you will probably be better off. 41 ap spent to get warchanter and it's capstone. That leaves 39. This means you can spend 30 to also get spellsinger III and it's extra sp effects just by picking up the stuff designated to spellsinger that you already use. Ir you could maybe just get enough for spellsinger 1 and maybe virt 1 or a racial prestige.


Ok, what about leaving things as they currently are and just finishing undone prestiges?
All builds would be preserved. If you'd want to change them, TR.

Maybe they could just:
- reduce AP prices for some enhancements, say Monk Void 4,
- focus on making class PrEs viable, like Deepwood Sniper I - increased PBS range is ok, but Sniper shot is weak,
- focus on Capstones being available for each prestige class, say, a Ranger could choose a capstone for tempest, capstone for DWS, capstone for AA and only one may be chosen.
- set unique icons for enhancements,
- balance the classes according to their normal abilities and prestiges, with gear from level 1-20, and to take a look at epics also.

[red_cardinal]

iirc MadFloyd already said they were going to give out a feat swap token to toons effected. hearts of wood were never mentioned.

Ok, but how are they going to do that? I know they are looking at Bowbarian builds and so on and that they know in general some popular builds... But, it's impossible to verify which toons will be affected. That's a lot of characters.

[Aeolwind]

From the drift I get from Varg, Floyd & Eladrin is this:

-Basic class 'features' would probably be in the lowest branches of each path. Fighter HP, strength, rogue SA bonuses, cleric healing.
-Those however would have level requirements potentially tied to the upper ranks of the enhancement. Appears 'level' locking vs 'enhancement spent' locking appears to be the name of the beast everyone fears. And I think those fears are speculative. This means that your fighter, within reason, should have access to the same 'class' abilities as before, with the exception of having to 'dump' a point into something unwanted. You just may not be able to get them at the same time as before for better or worse.

I also played left drift in high school.

[HarveyMilk]

What if instead of selecting the tree in each pane of the enhancement window, you have three for each selected class that you swap all at once. You can spend points in any of the trees (up to class level limits) but each pane would let you set if you want to activate the Prestige Class bonuses, up to three.

This way you do not lock out enhancements from splash levels, and the 1% of players that purposefully don't want a PrE at all (why, I can't fathom) are not forced to.

This, this, this. Keep the flexibility of the old system with this easy to implement, awesome idea.

To those concerned about power creep: Yes, stacking bonuses on separate trees will add to power creep. But, it will also breath much needed life into what promises to be a HUGE number of builds. A little power creep for a huge breath of life into this game is absolutely a good trade-off.

Plus, think of it this way. Enhancement-based power creep benefits everyone, as opposed to high-end gear power creep, which benefits only the longest-playing players. That means we could continue to see more difficult content added, more pugs, more life in DDO. Kudos devs. Now, the hard part, making each PrE fun. The devil is in the details.

[krackythehoodedone]

Sorry Thrudh i cant agree.

Turbine allowed us to keep Crit Rage in exchange for never being able to reset our enhancements.

Those that kept their Crit Ragers signed on that particular dotted line. That was nearly three years ago. You have to be pretty committed to have never Reset or Tr'd in all that time

Are you telling Zexxi that after 30 months of hard Epic grinding to give her the best set of equipment it is possible to get that i'm going to sit idly by and let Turbine kill her off.

We are talking literally thousands of hours here. Everyone that plays top end stuff on Khyber knows me and knows this to be true. Resetting the enhancements now is far more painful than if they had simply finished it totally with the introduction of U9

I have a unique Character, the last of her kind on Khyber. No way am i going without a fight

[LeLoric]

Ok, what about leaving things as they currently are and just finishing undone prestiges?
All builds would be preserved. If you'd want to change them, TR.

Maybe they could just:
- reduce AP prices for some enhancements, say Monk Void 4,
- focus on making class PrEs viable, like Deepwood Sniper I - increased PBS range is ok, but Sniper shot is weak,
- focus on Capstones being available for each prestige class, say, a Ranger could choose a capstone for tempest, capstone for DWS, capstone for AA and only one may be chosen.
- set unique icons for enhancements,
- balance the classes according to their normal abilities and prestiges, with gear from level 1-20, and to take a look at epics also.

It's pretty obvious they aren't going to do this.

To get to where they are now means they have already spent a fair amount of time to get there. To completely reverse it is probably not something a boss would accept at this point.

If you wanna kick and claw and moan about how it's not staying the way it is go ahead but I'd suggest it's pretty futule.

Better to look at what they are doing and provide your feedback here so that some changes within the current system they are developing may be made.

I expect most builds to be able to gain some positive benefits out of the new system while at the worst losing a small amount. A very miniscule amount of builds will be truly broken.

[Darkrok]

I think for your case you will probably be better off. 41 ap spent to get warchanter and it's capstone. That leaves 39. This means you can spend 30 to also get spellsinger III and it's extra sp effects just by picking up the stuff designated to spellsinger that you already use. Ir you could maybe just get enough for spellsinger 1 and maybe virt 1 or a racial prestige.


now if you were a splash build and wanted stuff out of fighter and rog as well as all three of the bard trees that's where you'd be kinda screwed.

If Spellsong Vigor still doesn't work on Warforged I'd give serious thought to Warforged Stalwart Defender. Pimp out my Light & Darkness, go Sword & Board for the extra hp's and damage mitigation from Stalwart Defender (qualified for with Shield Mastery) and call it a day. I'm sure I could shake that 1 feat free now that I've already dropped the THF line and there are certainly times I could use the shield mastery over the damage of my two handers (scroll healing/recon'ing people for instance - toss the shield offhand for more survivability).

I really want to do Spellsong Vigor. I do. I just don't like taking something that's broken for my race. :(

[Calebro]

The system as it is now, the enhancements aren't level gated per se. You could take tier 4 for a enhancement line at level 1 if you had 1/2/3 before it for example, but you couldn't achieve the required amount of total enhancements at level 1. Essentially the code behind it didn't use level as the check to when an enhancement became available, it used your total enhancement points.

False. It uses both level and total points spent, among other things such as enhancement and feat prereqs.


A little power creep for a huge breath of life into this game is absolutely a good trade-off.

Plus, think of it this way. Enhancement-based power creep benefits everyone, as opposed to high-end gear power creep, which benefits only the longest-playing players.

I'm not sure you understand the concept of Power Creep at all....

[HarveyMilk]

I have a unique Character, the last of her kind on Khyber. No way am i going without a fight

Sorry, I don't really have any sympathy for this. Everyone's character is going to change under a new enhancement system. So you, and others, rolled up one or multiple crit ragers to take advantage of an over-powered feature? There are other over-powered builds that will have to change under a new system.

The new system, as proposed, (and with the details done well, of course) would greatly benefit the game. Do you really think your old character is worth fighting a wholly better enhancement system? Just think about the game for once. Your character would not die. Your equipment won't get deleted. And you will undoubtedly end up with a better character under the new system.

sheesh

[Failedlegend]

Ok, what about leaving things as they currently are and just finishing undone prestiges?
All builds would be preserved. If you'd want to change them, TR.


No revamping the UI is a GOOD thing they just need to tweak it a bit...in case you missed it (refering to your "övernight" comment earlier) they don't plan on it even hitting Lama until the summer.

[Chai]

Im not sure if I like the limitation on the number of trees that can be displayed. This is my biggest concern.

Take a bard for instance. I have a combat orientated multiclass spellsinger. I want all of the + to hit and + to damage, as well as all of the song duration, scroll enhancements etc.

It sounds to me like their explanation is that I would need to be in more than one bard tree to do this.

Then If I have 2 fighter levels and want the haste boost 1, str 1, and toughness 1 I might be locked out due to needing to use all 3 slots for the bard trees.

If this new interface locks out options that USED TO BE build-able, it may not be my favorite change that ever happened in the game. Players should be able to multiclass without having to lock themselves out of options that used to exist simply because the interface can only accomodate a limited number of class + race trees.

[red_cardinal]

It's pretty obvious they aren't going to do this.

To get to where they are now means they have already spent a fair amount of time to get there. To completely reverse it is probably not something a boss would accept at this point.

If you wanna kick and claw and moan about how it's not staying the way it is go ahead but I'd suggest it's pretty futule.



I don't believe they are at implementation phase. They are at the planning phase meaning debates, 'Call of lightning' procing pretty often. It's all JUST talk. That's why I still believe that they might 'rearrange' their ideas.

I won't kick anything, moan or claw... I do think that suggestions in planning phase aren't futile.

[HarveyMilk]

I'm not sure you understand the concept of Power Creep at all....

Okay, I'm going to ignore the condescension here. Power creep is the danger that old content/gear is trivialized by the Next Best Thing. The old power creep of the mid-level game is by and large just fine, even for TR's, because there are newer quests that are more challenging than the original release.

The danger is that a new enhancement system would just make characters 16+ too powerful. As I said, the devil is in the details. And a little power creep would be just fine, in exchange for new life in character designing.

[red_cardinal]

No revamping the UI is a GOOD thing they just need to tweak it a bit...in case you missed it (refering to your "övernight" comment earlier) they don't plan on it even hitting Lama until the summer.

I agree, that's why is propose minor changes so the development cycle is shorter and more gameplay-wise productive.
Revamp in a way to be done with it until end of February, not July.

[Aeolwind]

False. It uses both level and total points spent, among other things such as enhancement and feat prereqs.



I stand corrected. I had incorrectly applied the assumption in my head that improved intim 2 was level 6 not level 4 & gated you rather than level. Correcting my post if I can.

[HarveyMilk]

Im not sure if I like the limitation on the number of trees that can be displayed. This is my biggest concern.

Hence, MaxwellEdison's post:

"What if instead of selecting the tree in each pane of the enhancement window, you have three for each selected class that you swap all at once. You can spend points in any of the trees (up to class level limits) but each pane would let you set if you want to activate the Prestige Class bonuses, up to three.

This way you do not lock out enhancements from splash levels, and the 1% of players that purposefully don't want a PrE at all (why, I can't fathom) are not forced to."

[Cyr]

Point blank question for Madfloyd.

What is the planned method of adjusting difficulty of content based upon this enhancement revamp?

Is it individual quest tinkering?

Is is adjustment of quest levels?

Is there no real clear plan?

[red_cardinal]

Also a question to the devs... are you willing to drop the proposals you made for the sake of shortening the development cycle, just finishing undone prestiges, fixing broken ones, balancing them out in the current UI if you feel that community agrees with such a thing?

How about a survey on the issue?

[Rhysem]

Ok, but how are they going to do that? I know they are looking at Bowbarian builds and so on and that they know in general some popular builds... But, it's impossible to verify which toons will be affected. That's a lot of characters.

The 'right way' would be to give everyone, reguardless of build or feat selections, a heart of wood to fix their character. Also, its easy to do.

Time limited is only okay if the timer starts when you get the token and you can control that. Because people who come back to the game a year after this change shouldn't be screwed because they weren't playing right when it happens.

[Calebro]

And a little power creep would be just fine, in exchange for new life in character designing.

Power creep is always bad. Power creep is also unfortunately a fact of life in MMOs. But no one should ever claim that a little power creep is good. Power creep is the cause. The effect is that many other aspects of the game have to change to compensate, most notably mob power needs to increase to compensate.
This leads to more power creep in the players' favor becoming justified because of the mobs' increased power level. This in turn leads to mobs' power increasing again to compensate.
It's an endless downward spiral, and it all starts with the thought that "a little power creep is good."
Power creep is never good, and it must be absolutely minimized at every possible turn.

Stacking PrEs from the same class and stacking stats enhancements from different classes and PrEs are an example of some of the things that would be bad.
Power creep is the reason for nerfs that everyone hate so much. Advocating power creep in any form is advocating nerfs at a later date.
Without power creep, there would very rarely ever be a need for nerfs to begin with.

[Zzevel]

I found a color mockup of the new design....


http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q637/TKE_352/D309.jpg



Nevermind, I was wrong, this was a Diablo 3 concept page back in 2009... I realize there are no new ideas in the world, but this is an old.. OLD layout that has been around way longer than DDO (you can see this layout in many games). Why is this an excuse now to mix things up? To me it seams like one more "LOOK OVER HERE" to distract us from the real issues.

[dkyle]

Simple clarification question: is it currently the intent that characters would have access to:

1. A Racial tree, plus 3 Class PrEs, one of which might be swapped out for the Racial PrE purchased by AP on the Racial tree.

2. A Racial tree, plus 3 Class PrEs, plus one Racial PrE purchased on the Racial tree. So, effectively, 4 PrEs possible.

3. A combined Racial/Racial PrE tree, plus 3 Class PrEs


I'm pretty sure it is #1, but I'm seeing confusion on the issue.

[Havok.cry]

Have we scared the devs away yet? Yesterday they were all over this thread, wondering where they are at now. If they're reading this could we get a "read up to" post please?

[LeLoric]

Simple clarification question: is it currently the intent that characters would have access to:

1. A Racial tree, plus 3 Class PrEs, one of which might be swapped out for the Racial PrE purchased by AP on the Racial tree.

2. A Racial tree, plus 3 Class PrEs, plus one Racial PrE purchased on the Racial tree. So, effectively, 4 PrEs possible.

3. A combined Racial/Racial PrE tree, plus 3 Class PrEs


I'm pretty sure it is #1, but I'm seeing confusion on the issue.

I understand it to be 1 but id like to see it be 2 with that racial pre tree swappable for another class tree for multiclassers.

[waterboytkd]

Simple clarification question: is it currently the intent that characters would have access to:

1. A Racial tree, plus 3 Class PrEs, one of which might be swapped out for the Racial PrE purchased by AP on the Racial tree.

2. A Racial tree, plus 3 Class PrEs, plus one Racial PrE purchased on the Racial tree. So, effectively, 4 PrEs possible.

3. A combined Racial/Racial PrE tree, plus 3 Class PrEs


I'm pretty sure it is #1, but I'm seeing confusion on the issue.

I think it's 2...or 3. Not sure the difference between the two. But if you look at the mockup, your racial tree has the PrE progression on the bottom. I imagine, after purchasing the enhancement to unlock your racial PrE, that your racial PrE looks at AP spent on racial tree enhancements to power up. So yeah, 4 PrEs possible.

[HarveyMilk]

Power creep is always bad.

Every time the level cap was raised, the epic system, the TR system, all of these had power creep in them. And although I agree that power creep has to be minimized, I think it is a bad idea to shy away from good progress in the right direction because of a fear of power creep.

And, my original point was not that power creep was good, but that a little is WORTH it, AND enhancement power creep is better than gear-based power creep. Gear-based power creep, ala expansion packs that raise level caps, just makes all your old gear worthless, or worse, creates even more distance between the haves and the have-nots, killing pugs.

Enhancement based power creep, well-minimized, and adjusted for maximum fun, would be a boon for everyone. Nay-sayers are just gonna say nay.

[krackythehoodedone]

Sorry Harvey cant have that.

Absolutely i DID NOT roll up my Bowbarian to take advantage of an overpowered system. I had absolutely no idea what the system was when i rolled this Toon up.

I did know that Crit Rage was finishing and that I would be able to keep it after U9 however and i intend to hold Turbine to that promise.

Neither do i have any problems with future improvements to the game and Floyds excellent and innivotive customer centred approach.

From what i have seen MadFloyd wasnt even aware of Crit Rage and the implications of a Reset. What i am doing is putting our case and defending my corner. Anyone who had put the thousands of hours into a project would do exactly the same.

So you can keep your lack of sympathy and your new Enhancements but no way am i ever going to agree to losing Crit rage

[HarveyMilk]

So you can keep your lack of sympathy and your new Enhancements but no way am i ever going to agree to losing Crit rage

What if Crit Rage is the new ravager capstone, and you get to take that in the new system? Are you going to protest because it doesn't look exactly like it did when you were frozen in time years ago?

[Thrudh]

i intend to hold Turbine to that promise.

Heh, good luck with that.

Things change.

The good news is you're probably okay... They seem to indicate that the Barbarian ravager PrE will have some kind of crit-range enhancement.

You'll be able to adapt, I'm sure. All that gear means more than your enhancements... You're not going to lose much power (if any).

You just like being unique... that's probably the real issue here. You may indeed lose that, and soon there may be hundreds of Bowbarians running around your server.

[dkyle]

I think it's 2...or 3. Not sure the difference between the two. But if you look at the mockup, your racial tree has the PrE progression on the bottom. I imagine, after purchasing the enhancement to unlock your racial PrE, that your racial PrE looks at AP spent on racial tree enhancements to power up. So yeah, 4 PrEs possible.

The difference between 2 and 3 is whether or not a fourth Class PrE pane appears, or if the Class PrE is just part of the Racial pane.

Integration makes sense for some races, but for Human, it doesn't seem compatible.


I did see the PrE progression on the racial tree, but I'm thinking that could be artifact of the the copy pasting done to make the diagram. I think MadFloyd's text description points towards Racial PrE being among the Class PrEs, though, and I'm placing more weight on that.

Of course, I'd prefer 2 or 3 (but really no tree limit at all, just a PrE bonus enhancements limit).

[orakio]

I think it is early to assume that all enhancements will stay as they are on live and there won't be any replacements or rebalancing in the trees. Thats the problem, they are talking about a total overhaul of the enhancement system and everything from costs to effectiveness of individual enhancements will be subject to change or replacement.

Basically this, until we see hard data and information the only thing we can assume is that the new system is a big change but not necessarily for the worse or better. Once you have real information THEN you can worry about not having the features or the effectiveness of prior builds. Yes there are visible limitations in the system currently however without the information we can see if the limitations are reasonable or not.

Your favorite character may be missing some of the goodies you used to get, but with redesigned costs and the fact that PrE's don't take additional enhancement points there is a solid chance that you get other fun things now (including 2 same class PrE's).

[Calebro]

And, my original point was not that power creep was good, but that a little is WORTH it, AND enhancement power creep is better than gear-based power creep. Gear-based power creep, ala expansion packs that raise level caps, just makes all your old gear worthless, or worse, creates even more distance between the haves and the have-nots, killing pugs.

Enhancement based power creep, well-minimized, and adjusted for maximum fun, would be a boon for everyone. Nay-sayers are just gonna say nay.

I disagree completely. Gear based power creep can be overcome by simply getting the newer gear.
Enhancement based power creep would pigeonhole character builds into either uber-powered or gimp, and no amount of gear can compensate for that.

Look at Wizards for a perfect example. With the new system allowing for multiple PrEs from within the same class, Necro spec'd Archmage and Pale Master becomes a possibility. That means RIDICULOUS DCs once you get some gear. The mobs will have to be fortified to compensate. There is only so much gear you can attain to help out, and eventually you'l be left in the dust. Why? Because you chose to not take both PrEs. Your only recourse is to respec and get both PrEs, or be a gimp caster.
Enhancement power creep = less build options.
We're fighting for MORE build options. How is anything that will reduce those options a good thing?
Enhancement power creep is much worse than gear power creep.

[Tyrande]

this is a pipe dream. many builds will be broken requiring folks to buy hearts of wood to respec.

Yes, a huge rock has been cast from the hands of the developers to the midst of the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold builds. Do we really believe our OP builds will last forever?

Batman builds with evasion in heavy armor -> done for
W/P builds -> done for
Rage Crit II builds -> melee done for, ranged almost.
Tugkaw -> done for
Exploiter -> ?
The Emerald -> ?
Dark Knight -> ?
Splatsplat -> ?

But we still have our toys, our knowledge of the quests, our guilds. We will have to adjust and adapt to the new trees. It brings freshness to the 6 years (!? coming up in Feb 2012) old game.

P.S. Daniel 2:45 reference

[Meat-Head]

Ok, I've followed the thread pretty closely. So, I can see some of the concerns (which are quite valid).

Concerns:

1. This new system ULTIMATELY gives us LESS flexibility than before.
2. Heavy splashes lose because of the tree limitations.
3. Power Creep.
4. New UI is driving decisions on PrEs instead of finishing PrEs and then making a UI work around them.
5. Many desire unlimted trees OR at least a general tree.



SOLUTION WHERE EVERYONE WINS (Minus the crit-ragers or whatever, but that's a separate issue):

1. Keep the Race +3 Tree limit. UI change can go as-planned
2. EACH PrE tree would have ALL (or close to all) general class abilities available up the far left side of the tree box. (solves problems with deep splashes and no need for a "general tab")
3. PrE abilities and enchancements will NOT stack. Also, If you took higher tiers or wind stance in Shintao tree, it would lock that general enh out in the Ninja tree (reduces power creep)
4. GENERAL class abilities would NOT count toward pre progression(the bottom stars) UNLESS required by PrE
5. Skills and toughness go to the race tree and become available/become extended based on class trees you have going.

Now everyone gets what they want. You can build a character JUST LIKE YOU CAN NOW. We get a prettier interface. Win-Win-Win.



Clarification Example #1:

Shintao Monks would have ALL OF THESE general monk abilities in their tree:

1. Void 1-4
2. All stances
3. Elemental special strikes
4. Animal specialites
5. Monk Wisdom
6. Improved Recovery


Ninjas would ALSO have ALL OF THE ABOVE in their tree. Taking them in either tree would lock out the other.




Clarification Example #2:

Earth Savants would have ALL OF THESE available to them in their tree

1. Sorc CHA
2. Subtle Spellcasting
3. Energy of Dragonblood
4. Sorc Spell Pen
5. Wand Heightening
6. Wand and Scroll mastery
7. ALL elemental + Crit lines (we'd be fine if you couldn't hit the top two upgrades in these on your opposite element and maybe the top ONE on your secondary elements)
8. Meta SP reduction lines


Water Savants would have ALL OF THE ABOVE in their tree as well. But upgrading in one would lock them out in the other.



95% of Problems Solved as far as I can see.

[waterboytkd]

What if instead of selecting the tree in each pane of the enhancement window, you have three for each selected class that you swap all at once. You can spend points in any of the trees (up to class level limits) but each pane would let you set if you want to activate the Prestige Class bonuses, up to three.

This way you do not lock out enhancements from splash levels, and the 1% of players that purposefully don't want a PrE at all (why, I can't fathom) are not forced to.

A couple issues:

-The plan is that enhancements in all trees stack. That would include things like Toughnesses and Stat Boosts. If there were no limit on the number of trees you could buy in, then the number of Toughness enhancements or stat boosting enhancements you have could be massive.

-What the devs (Varg) have said is that they want to increase the number of viable builds. If you have unlimited tree access, that actually won't increase the number of viable builds. In fact, it might actually reduce them. Because you'd be insane not to be taking the absolute best enhancements out of all trees. But with a 3 tree limit, you have to choose which tree best serves your build concept, and accept that you may not be getting a great enhancement from another tree. This actually increases viable builds, because a 12X/6Y/2Z may not be the same (or anything like) the same class split.

Example: if that 6 or 2 class splash is fighter, maybe you want it for haste boost and fighter toughness, especially if it stacks with the same enhancements from other classes. Now, with unlimited tree access, anyone with that splash would probably take those two enhancements. But if they're in separate trees, and your limited to 3 trees, one build might decide that haste boost is more important and take that tree, while another might decide it needs more hp, and take the tree with toughness.

I know it seems like they are "weakening" builds to make more viable ones, but this system brings new rules to the table, and even with limiting, builds might (probably will, probably should) be stronger than what they are now, and unlimited tree access might actually just break the system, making multiclass builds way too powerful.

[Thrudh]

We will have to adjust and adapt... It brings freshness to the 6 years (!? coming up in Feb 2012) old game.

Exactly... But it will be fun for some people (me) and devasting to others.

[red_cardinal]

95% of Problems Solved as far as I can see.

I agree. Forget new UI, forget new tabs. All you proposed we have already in existing UI with existing enhancements.
Let them just finish undone prestiges, slightly alter those who are to expensive/weak/not needed, fix broken ones.

[HarveyMilk]

devasting to others.

This completely remains to be seen.

[waterboytkd]

I disagree completely. Gear based power creep can be overcome by simply getting the newer gear.
Enhancement based power creep would pigeonhole character builds into either uber-powered or gimp, and no amount of gear can compensate for that.

Look at Wizards for a perfect example. With the new system allowing for multiple PrEs from within the same class, Necro spec'd Archmage and Pale Master becomes a possibility. That means RIDICULOUS DCs once you get some gear. The mobs will have to be fortified to compensate. There is only so much gear you can attain to help out, and eventually you'l be left in the dust. Why? Because you chose to not take both PrEs. Your only recourse is to respec and get both PrEs, or be a gimp caster.
Enhancement power creep = less build options.
We're fighting for MORE build options. How is anything that will reduce those options a good thing?
Enhancement power creep is much worse than gear power creep.

You make some assumptions: first, that mobs would be fortified to compensate. Maybe Turbine sets a baseline for success, and if you can surpass that by a wide margin with an uber-build, then they say kudos to you?

But the biggest assumption that you make is that enhancements, especially PrE enhancements, will remain unchanged in this new system. There's no indication one way or the other that Archamage and Pale Master will continue to add to Necro DCs.

My guess is that the devs will begin addressing the issues with stacking PrEs as the system starts fleshing out, and that there will be substantial revisions to PrEs, especially caster PrEs.

[dkyle]

-The plan is that enhancements in all trees stack. That would include things like Toughnesses and Stat Boosts. If there were no limit on the number of trees you could buy in, then the number of Toughness enhancements or stat boosting enhancements you have could be massive.

Yeah, there is a problem there. I think the best thing would be to split that basic stuff out into a generic class list (but only stuff like that; very little else), and restore the current stacking rules.

[Meat-Head]

I agree. Forget new UI, forget new tabs. All you proposed we have already in existing UI with existing enhancements.
Let them just finish undone prestiges, slightly alter those who are to expensive/weak/not needed, fix broken ones.


?? Not what I said.. But I'm fine with this too. But let's be honest. If they started working on the new GUI, it's going to go forward in SOME way.

[HarveyMilk]

Forget new UI, forget new tabs.

As others have said, this is unlikely after putting in so much work on a redesign. The devs, smartly, want DDO to be new-player friendly. The current enhancement UI is worse than new player unfriendly, it is impossible to use effectively without a heavy amount of internet research and planning. Plus it's clunky. Clunky + unforgiving = less revenue from newbs being turned off early on.

[MaxwellEdison]

I found a color mockup of the new design....


http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q637/TKE_352/D309.jpg



Nevermind, I was wrong, this was a Diablo 3 concept page back in 2009... I realize there are no new ideas in the world, but this is an old.. OLD layout that has been around way longer than DDO (you can see this layout in many games). Why is this an excuse now to mix things up? To me it seams like one more "LOOK OVER HERE" to distract us from the real issues.

You see an old, overused layout and I see an intuitive way to visualize the dependencies inherent in the progression. Which real issue do you want addressed? One of the largest ones from the recent threads asking the community was finishing and balancing prestiges (with some asking for more of a look at AP costs and feat requirements).

There are two ways to go about achieving that goal. One is to continue adding PrE's to the existing framework, while making as few changes to the preexisting PrE's as possible. This then often leads to the new PrE being designed for the current state of the game and shows the age and problems with the preexisting ones.

The other option is to start from the ground up with a redone enhancement system so everything, old, new and racial PrE's, get balanced together. This also allows you to change the UI (which you must admit, is frustrating to work with currently) to something more intuitive. Also, the new design might be something to make players from games with the similar looking systems to try it and then discover the character customization options are much deeper than the far far away galaxy, or cold, storm-strewn plain they came from.

As of right now we really don't have enough info to really critique the proposed changes, and we really won't until we can see trees and AP costs for all races and classes. Once we have those we can then have substantive debate over actual changes instead of the current whiteboard session.

My hope is we can discuss each class and relevant racial PrE's together and then have the feedback turned into a second, third, or even fourth draft before we see anything on Llamaland, and then again to get some time to see how all the pretty words and numbers actually turn out.

[Chai]

You make some assumptions: first, that mobs would be fortified to compensate. Maybe Turbine sets a baseline for success, and if you can surpass that by a wide margin with an uber-build, then they say kudos to you?

But the biggest assumption that you make is that enhancements, especially PrE enhancements, will remain unchanged in this new system. There's no indication one way or the other that Archamage and Pale Master will continue to add to Necro DCs.

My guess is that the devs will begin addressing the issues with stacking PrEs as the system starts fleshing out, and that there will be substantial revisions to PrEs, especially caster PrEs.

And the way those options interact with eachother is going to determine the new OP build everyone will complain about never needing to roll anything else but...in 2012. :p

[Calebro]

You make some assumptions: first, that mobs would be fortified to compensate. Maybe Turbine sets a baseline for success, and if you can surpass that by a wide margin with an uber-build, then they say kudos to you?
They will compensate. That's the entire nature of Power Creep.


But the biggest assumption that you make is that enhancements, especially PrE enhancements, will remain unchanged in this new system. There's no indication one way or the other that Archamage and Pale Master will continue to add to Necro DCs.

My guess is that the devs will begin addressing the issues with stacking PrEs as the system starts fleshing out, and that there will be substantial revisions to PrEs, especially caster PrEs.

You want a non-caster example?
Kensai Stalwart Defender.
Able to build for meaningful AC, while gaining the extra damage that Kensai offers, and adding huge threat to that damage.
Never lose aggro again, while holding relevant damage mitigation.
What do you think is going to happen? Are they going to leave mobs the same? No. They're going to make mobs tougher to compensate. Again, that's the entire nature of power creep.

So I'll repeat, enhancement power creep is much worse than gear based power creep. Gear based power creep can be overcome on any build by acquiring the relevant gear. Enhancement based power creep can be overcome in exactly one way: By gaining those enhancements. That means cookie cutter builds.

[Chai]

Hence, MaxwellEdison's post:

"What if instead of selecting the tree in each pane of the enhancement window, you have three for each selected class that you swap all at once. You can spend points in any of the trees (up to class level limits) but each pane would let you set if you want to activate the Prestige Class bonuses, up to three.

This way you do not lock out enhancements from splash levels, and the 1% of players that purposefully don't want a PrE at all (why, I can't fathom) are not forced to."

I like that idea. I dont like thinking that we would be limited in character building simily due to a limitation of the interface not being able to allow enhancements in more than X number of trees.

[Meat-Head]

I would strongly appreciate feedback to my proposal in post #1096 both from players and from any Devs who would be able to.

I really see it as solving MOST of the problems.. Tell me if I'm wrong.

[krackythehoodedone]

If Crit Rage was part of a new Pre then i wouldnt be losing Crit Rage so i wouldnt be mentioning it. But their was just a few ''maybe's'' and ''possiblies'' nothing definite.

Err yes i suppose it is kinda nice having a one of a kind toon Thrudh. I think i'm very lucky to have that Character and i dont want it to change.

On the other hand i wouldnt want to be seen as someone who would hold up the whole progress of the game for their own selfish ambition.

For me the ''ultimate'' solution would be carry on with the new stuff but leave Crit Rage alone. After all that is exactly what they did in U9 so its obviously easy enough to do as they have already done it once.

[waterboytkd]

And the way those options interact with eachother is going to determine the new OP build everyone will complain about never needing to roll anything else but...in 2012. :p

I can't argue against this. I think it's true. But you can't have an in-depth, very customizable multiclassing system without creating variance in power between builds, especially now that there will be a faux-multiclassing within single classes, too. So there will be good builds, mediocre builds, amazing builds, and a build that the uber-leets will consider the best build.

And if there's a best build, there'll be people who think if you're not playing that build, then you shouldn't be playing. But the truth is they're wrong--you don't have to be the best to succeed at this game, and you certainly don't need to be the best to have fun at this game. And then there'll be players that get butt-hurt that their pet build isn't the best, and they'll try and turn the best build's abilities into buffs for their pet build. But there's actually nothing you can do for those people.

[Chai]

They will compensate. That's the entire nature of Power Creep.



You want a non-caster example?
Kensai Stalwart Defender.
Able to build for meaningful AC, while gaining the extra damage that Kensai offers, and adding huge threat to that damage.
Never lose aggro again, while holding relevant damage mitigation.
What do you think is going to happen? Are they going to leave mobs the same? No. They're going to make mobs tougher to compensate. Again, that's the entire nature of power creep.

So I'll repeat, enhancement power creep is much worse than gear based power creep. Gear based power creep can be overcome on any build by acquiring the relevant gear. Enhancement based power creep can be overcome in exactly one way: By gaining those enhancements.

Power creep also has to do with balance as well. Right now content is balanced for the weaker classes in balanced parties. The stronger classes are blowing right through that content.

A Kensai SD together doesnt really overpower the game, because a straight wizard toaster lich can still do all of the things that could do, and better, in 99% of all content. I say let the MELEE power creep up a bit but dont OP casters even further than they already are. They have a golden opportunity here to correct many balance issues in this game using this new system.

And as far as power creep always being bad, it isnt. In fact, its one of the major incentives to keep playing the game. If they rolled out LOB and the weapons werent better than shroud weapons, no one would run it. Power creep provides incentive to keep players interested.

[Thrudh]

Ok, I've followed the thread pretty closely. So, I can see some of the concerns (which are quite valid).

Concerns:

1. This new system ULTIMATELY gives us LESS flexibility than before.
2. Heavy splashes lose because of the tree limitations.
3. Power Creep.
4. New UI is driving decisions on PrEs instead of finishing PrEs and then making a UI work around them.
5. Many desire unlimted trees OR at least a general tree.



SOLUTION WHERE EVERYONE WINS (Minus the crit-ragers or whatever, but that's a separate issue):

1. Keep the Race +3 Tree limit. UI change can go as-planned
2. EACH PrE tree would have ALL (or close to all) general class abilities available up the far left side of the tree box. (solves problems with deep splashes and no need for a "general tab")
3. PrE abilities and enchancements will NOT stack. Also, If you took higher tiers or wind stance in Shintao tree, it would lock that general enh out in the Ninja tree (reduces power creep)
4. GENERAL class abilities would NOT count toward pre progression(the bottom stars) UNLESS required by PrE
5. Skills and toughness go to the race tree and become available/become extended based on class trees you have going.

Now everyone gets what they want. You can build a character JUST LIKE YOU CAN NOW. We get a prettier interface. Win-Win-Win.



Clarification Example #1:

Shintao Monks would have ALL OF THESE general monk abilities in their tree:

1. Void 1-4
2. All stances
3. Elemental special strikes
4. Animal specialites
5. Monk Wisdom
6. Improved Recovery


Ninjas would ALSO have ALL OF THE ABOVE in their tree. Taking them in either tree would lock out the other.




Clarification Example #2:

Earth Savants would have ALL OF THESE available to them in their tree

1. Sorc CHA
2. Subtle Spellcasting
3. Energy of Dragonblood
4. Sorc Spell Pen
5. Wand Heightening
6. Wand and Scroll mastery
7. ALL elemental + Crit lines (we'd be fine if you couldn't hit the top two upgrades in these on your opposite element and maybe the top ONE on your secondary elements)
8. Meta SP reduction lines


Water Savants would have ALL OF THE ABOVE in their tree as well. But upgrading in one would lock them out in the other.



95% of Problems Solved as far as I can see.

I think this is a good idea, but I think the devs were hoping to allow things to stack, making the coding a lot easier.

[waterboytkd]

You want a non-caster example?
Kensai Stalwart Defender.
Able to build for meaningful AC, while gaining the extra damage that Kensai offers, and adding huge threat to that damage.
Never lose aggro again, while holding relevant damage mitigation.
What do you think is going to happen? Are they going to leave mobs the same? No. They're going to make mobs tougher to compensate. Again, that's the entire nature of power creep.

So I'll repeat, enhancement power creep is much worse than gear based power creep. Gear based power creep can be overcome on any build by acquiring the relevant gear. Enhancement based power creep can be overcome in exactly one way: By gaining those enhancements. That means cookie cutter builds.

STRAWMAN.

You're right, that would be pretty amazing. And if they left it as is, they might just very well amp up mobs. But that has nothing to do with my point. Again, my point was that they are going to alter existing PrEs. They will not exists as we know them now. They will be different. And if there are serious stacking issues that lead to OP builds, then they will probably change the PrEs to take care of that. Your SD Kensai, even, has been addressed earlier in this thread by a dev. They were talking about maybe using exclusive stances to deal with OP stacking issues (so you'd have a Kensai stance and a SD stance).

You can say power creep and OP till your hoarse, but the fact is we don't know what the end product will look like, and enhancements--most notably PrE enhancements--will be going through changes as this system is developed.

[Calebro]

And as far as power creep always being bad, it isnt. In fact, its one of the major incentives to keep playing the game. If they rolled out LOB and the weapons werent better than shroud weapons, no one would run it. Power creep provides incentive to keep players interested.

That doesn't make it good, it simply makes it a fact of life in MMOs, as I said. It takes a delicate balance of offering a little bit, while minimizing the creep as much as possible.
When not enough is offered players lose interest.
When too much is offered things inevitably get nerfed and players rage.
So power creep is a fact of MMO life, but it's still never a good thing.



You can say power creep and OP till your hoarse, but the fact is we don't know what the end product will look like, and enhancements--most notably PrE enhancements--will be going through changes as this system is developed.

We're in the shaping process. They've allowed us a little access to this process when usually we have none. To not address our concerns would be a mistake.

[bhgiant]

Power creep also has to do with balance as well. Right now content is balanced for the weaker classes in balanced parties. The stronger classes [casters] are blowing right through that content. [solo]

And as far as power creep always being bad, it isnt. In fact, its one of the major incentives to keep playing the game. If they rolled out LOB and the weapons weren't better than shroud weapons, no one would run it. Power creep provides incentive to keep players interested.
Fixed and 100% agree as long as casters aren't able to become melee powerhouses with the changes. This should provide a boost to range/melee to be able to compete with casters.

[HarveyMilk]

I think this is a good idea, but I think the devs were hoping to allow things to stack, making the coding a lot easier.

Agreed. They want the new enhancements to stack. And this could allow melees the buff they need, as long as they put +DCs for casters in the capstones.

[Darkrok]

First, Meat-Head is exactly correct. There should be some items that can be taken in any of the class trees and 'lock out' those options in another tree. If you want to do so you could work around that of course. In the wizard example, for instance, I could take one of my damage lines under Pale Master (say the ice line) and another under Archmage (say the force line). That would allow me to qualify for both AM and PM even though I'd 'locked out' my ice options under AM and my force line under PM. That doesn't mean Meat-Head's approach doesn't make sense - far from it. It gives MORE options - not less. This overlap should always be either within a class (AM/PM for example) or with similar Racial/Class lines (Stalwart with...Stalwart for example) but this overlap/lockout mechanism would tone down the power creep while still letting us build whatever toon we want.

On that same issue, I'd like to tell a little 'gaming the system' story. I'm a life-long system gamer. I love looking for ways to take advantage of the system...not really for any benefit for myself so much as just to show where systems are broken. When I was working on choosing classes for my Sophomore year in college I pored through the class guide and looked at EVERY major and minor. In doing the research I found out that in an effort to support cross-disciplinary studies, liberal arts, and Liberal arts ;) the college had created special minors that took classes from many disciplines and put them under the auspice of a single 'focused' minor. For instance, you could get a minor in Women's Studies even though there was no Women's Studies classes nor an official Women's Studies department. You just had to take the right classes in History, or Philosophy, or Religion, etc. I found that with the right mix of classes it was possible to take a normal class load while graduating with 2 majors (Math and Philosophy) and 4 minors (Women's Studies, Religion, History, and one other cross-disciplinary one that I can't remember at the moment :) ). I tell this story because that's the problem they could create if they did not do a lockout but did allow you to get credit in all lines. Here's the various situations as I see them:
1) All items exist in one line only: I hate this option as it really makes the 3 class-1 race tree setup far too limiting. Basically, a generalist bard that happens to splash 3 classes (like many of the 16/2/2 or 14/4/2's out there) is likely going to want something from all 3 bard trees in this scenario. Even if it's just a couple ap's this would basically make their current build and strategy unusable. Given the fact that there are options available I would recommend against a plan that invalidates certain builds.
2) Item exists in both lines, no lock out, selected separately (ie choosing one does not give you the other): Creates a possible power creep issue if it's something highly desirable like a strength bonus. For instance, if there were 3 fighter pre's and all 3 gave separate and stacking strength bonuses that's a lot more strength. Ditto for int on Wizard lines, etc. I think this option is a bad choice due to this dynamic.
3) Item exists in both lines, no lock out, selected once and counts for all pre's at the cost of a single selection: See my story above. Far too easy to qualify for multiple lines that have cross-over enhancements.
4) Item exists in both lines, locks out selection in the other lines: Again, I think this is the way to go. Obviously there are some things that should only be in one line as they're very specific to that line. There are other things, like strength on a fighter or int on a wizard, that should be available in general on any line. But if you make copies in each line and make them stack that's OP'd. If you make 2ap's spent on something like wizard int count in every PrE line you're making it too cheap to get the PrE's. Making them lock out the selection in other lines avoids both of those issues while still preserving the ability to spend the appropriate number of points in each PrE line and unlock those benefits. You just can't use overlap to make that easier.

[Havok.cry]

Ok, I've followed the thread pretty closely. So, I can see some of the concerns (which are quite valid).

Concerns:

1. This new system ULTIMATELY gives us LESS flexibility than before.
2. Heavy splashes lose because of the tree limitations.
3. Power Creep.
4. New UI is driving decisions on PrEs instead of finishing PrEs and then making a UI work around them.
5. Many desire unlimted trees OR at least a general tree.



SOLUTION WHERE EVERYONE WINS (Minus the crit-ragers or whatever, but that's a separate issue):

1. Keep the Race +3 Tree limit. UI change can go as-planned
2. EACH PrE tree would have ALL (or close to all) general class abilities available up the far left side of the tree box. (solves problems with deep splashes and no need for a "general tab")
3. PrE abilities and enchancements will NOT stack. Also, If you took higher tiers or wind stance in Shintao tree, it would lock that general enh out in the Ninja tree (reduces power creep)
4. GENERAL class abilities would NOT count toward pre progression(the bottom stars) UNLESS required by PrE
5. Skills and toughness go to the race tree and become available/become extended based on class trees you have going.

Now everyone gets what they want. You can build a character JUST LIKE YOU CAN NOW. We get a prettier interface. Win-Win-Win.



Clarification Example #1:

Shintao Monks would have ALL OF THESE general monk abilities in their tree:

1. Void 1-4
2. All stances
3. Elemental special strikes
4. Animal specialites
5. Monk Wisdom
6. Improved Recovery


Ninjas would ALSO have ALL OF THE ABOVE in their tree. Taking them in either tree would lock out the other.




Clarification Example #2:

Earth Savants would have ALL OF THESE available to them in their tree

1. Sorc CHA
2. Subtle Spellcasting
3. Energy of Dragonblood
4. Sorc Spell Pen
5. Wand Heightening
6. Wand and Scroll mastery
7. ALL elemental + Crit lines (we'd be fine if you couldn't hit the top two upgrades in these on your opposite element and maybe the top ONE on your secondary elements)
8. Meta SP reduction lines


Water Savants would have ALL OF THE ABOVE in their tree as well. But upgrading in one would lock them out in the other.



95% of Problems Solved as far as I can see.

I could get behind this set up as well, but would still prefer a separate tab for the generals.

[Failedlegend]

I agree. Forget new UI, forget new tabs. All you proposed we have already in existing UI with existing enhancements.
Let them just finish undone prestiges, slightly alter those who are to expensive/weak/not needed, fix broken ones.

Do you NOT read what other people post or do you just only see "You're correct red cardinal you are awesome" ALL his suggestions were built around the new UI'


You see an old, overused layout and I see an intuitive way to visualize the dependencies inherent in the progression. Which real issue do you want addressed? One of the largest ones from the recent threads asking the community was finishing and balancing prestiges (with some asking for more of a look at AP costs and feat requirements).

There are two ways to go about achieving that goal. One is to continue adding PrE's to the existing framework, while making as few changes to the preexisting PrE's as possible. This then often leads to the new PrE being designed for the current state of the game and shows the age and problems with the preexisting ones.

The other option is to start from the ground up with a redone enhancement system so everything, old, new and racial PrE's, get balanced together. This also allows you to change the UI (which you must admit, is frustrating to work with currently) to something more intuitive. Also, the new design might be something to make players from games with the similar looking systems to try it and then discover the character customization options are much deeper than the far far away galaxy, or cold, storm-strewn plain they came from.

As of right now we really don't have enough info to really critique the proposed changes, and we really won't until we can see trees and AP costs for all races and classes. Once we have those we can then have substantive debate over actual changes instead of the current whiteboard session.

My hope is we can discuss each class and relevant racial PrE's together and then have the feedback turned into a second, third, or even fourth draft before we see anything on Llamaland, and then again to get some time to see how all the pretty words and numbers actually turn out.

Also a side benefit is that the Pre-Made paths will likely be redone :D

[HarveyMilk]

We're in the shaping process. They've allowed us a little access to this process when usually we have none. To not address our concerns would be a mistake.

Yes, yes, power creep can be a bad thing, we get it. But, the enhancement overhaul presents an opportunity to re-balance melee vs. casters. Melees need more power, period. Ungeared arcanes/divines blow melees away in every category and can use pots to overcome the only limitation.

We NEED melee power creep.

[waterboytkd]

I think this is a good idea, but I think the devs were hoping to allow things to stack, making the coding a lot easier.

It makes coding easier, and it makes it less confusing for new players. I mean, how many players have you seen wearing multiple Ogre Power items, thinking they stacked? I've seen too many. :D

As for your suggestion, Meat-Head, putting general enhancements in all trees isn't a terrible idea, but it will clutter up the trees pretty badly. And if they didn't count towards your PrE, that would be downright unintuitive. I had made a similar suggestion earlier yesterday, so way back in the 20-30 page range.

My idea was an enhancement, like Fighter Strength, would be in all the trees, but if you took it in the Kensai tree, then the AP spent would count for Kensai only, but all the trees would see that you took it. Then, if you took the next Strength again, you could take it in a different tree if you wanted to have it count for a different PrE, or just take it in the same Tree. That way, generic abilities wouldn't be locked out of a multiclassing toon, and you would dodge some of the issues with meeting AP spent requirements and issues with having one enhancement purchase counting for too much.

But, I really want to see how the devs envision this. Eladrin (i think) had mentioned that some enhancements, like Rogue Dex, are going to be changed. He mentioned that there will instead be Assassin Dex 1 and 2, Thief-Acrobat Dex 1 and 2 (and they stack with Assassin), and then Mechanic was going to get Mechanic Int 1 and 2.

If they start expanding the benefits of classes, too, like this, then I absolutely see the need to put some abilities in trees, and make multiclass toons choose between trees, because getting Dex and Int boosts with just a Rogue splash might be a bit much.

[Cyr]

STRAWMAN.

You're right, that would be pretty amazing. And if they left it as is, they might just very well amp up mobs. But that has nothing to do with my point. Again, my point was that they are going to alter existing PrEs. They will not exists as we know them now. They will be different.

Yes, we have seen exactly one of the PrE's so far as the developers envision them. It was tempest...it had the feat requirements removed, deflect arrows added on tier 2 (while twf), scimitars as finessable weapons for tier one added, and a capstone effect added. Oh and it would cost zero action points to get instead it would have a requirement of X class/total levels (if through racial) and 10 points per tier spent in it's 'tab' which is basically enhancements that are thematically related to being a tempest ranger..

In other words the one example we have seen is dramatically better then it was before.

[red_cardinal]

As others have said, this is unlikely after putting in so much work on a redesign. The devs, smartly, want DDO to be new-player friendly. The current enhancement UI is worse than new player unfriendly, it is impossible to use effectively without a heavy amount of internet research and planning. Plus it's clunky. Clunky + unforgiving = less revenue from newbs being turned off early on.

I think they only proposed a 'test' interface. It's not final or it may completely change or it may be dropped.

As for the new players being turned off, this can be done by making those paths on character selection screen choose feats and enhancements for them. The reason - no need to look for a build until you try out some preset path. If you leave the path, may your wisdom, wiki, forums and other sources be with you.

[sephiroth1084]

Sorry Thrudh i cant agree.

Turbine allowed us to keep Crit Rage in exchange for never being able to reset our enhancements.

Those that kept their Crit Ragers signed on that particular dotted line. That was nearly three years ago. You have to be pretty committed to have never Reset or Tr'd in all that time

Are you telling Zexxi that after 30 months of hard Epic grinding to give her the best set of equipment it is possible to get that i'm going to sit idly by and let Turbine kill her off.

We are talking literally thousands of hours here. Everyone that plays top end stuff on Khyber knows me and knows this to be true. Resetting the enhancements now is far more painful than if they had simply finished it totally with the introduction of U9

I have a unique Character, the last of her kind on Khyber. No way am i going without a fight


If Crit Rage was part of a new Pre then i wouldnt be losing Crit Rage so i wouldnt be mentioning it. But their was just a few ''maybe's'' and ''possiblies'' nothing definite.

Err yes i suppose it is kinda nice having a one of a kind toon Thrudh. I think i'm very lucky to have that Character and i dont want it to change.

On the other hand i wouldnt want to be seen as someone who would hold up the whole progress of the game for their own selfish ambition.

For me the ''ultimate'' solution would be carry on with the new stuff but leave Crit Rage alone. After all that is exactly what they did in U9 so its obviously easy enough to do as they have already done it once.
The problem with leaving it alone was that the previous solution from the devs was to simply not reset everyone's enhancements. That worked, because they didn't make too big a change, and people could go do the reset on their own, and if they didn't, it wasn't a big deal, such as for players who were taking a break and came back to old characters without knowing about new enhancements.

With a complete rewrite to the enhancement system, that would result in a very different game experience for players who didn't reset their AP, and particularly for those who didn't know about it. Simply leave everyone's stuff intact with such a major revamp would anger a lot of people, and would result in some weird grandfathering across the board.

I pointed out the thread to you, because I do have some love for your bowbarian, gimpy as he may be, but my hope is that you'll be better post-change by being able to redo your enhancements, maybe TR, and end up with Crit Rage again on a Ravager who also has most or all of Arcane Archer as well. The devs should be looking to support this build, even if it's only relevant to a dozen people across the whole game, and should give an option back to those people who have saved Crit Rage for other reasons.

I'd not be happy with their simply taking it away. If they were going to do that, they should have just done so 3 years ago.

[Ungood]

We NEED melee power creep.

I am not sure if I would use the term Creep in this regard, but yes, a buff will be good.

I will say tho, I am excited about this. Good things will come from it, it is not change for the sake of change, but change with the hope of improvement to the methodology of PRE's and developing a more user friendly interface. That is a step in the right direction.

All in all, I feel this is a wonderful progression and I am glad they are giving us a glimpse of it.

[Darkrok]

Just as a response to my own post...the devil is in the details. Even using my suggestion of no stacking, general options under all 3 trees, selecting under 1 tree locks it out from the other 2 you still have to make intelligent decisions about what belongs in all 3 trees and what belongs only in the one tree. And you may even want to make use of a few spots that have stacking enhancements that are similar (but named differently to avoid confusion). For instance, you could have a Fighter Strength I that is in all 3 fighter lines (and locks out the other 2 lines when selected) and then have a Kensai Strength I that only shows up under the Kensai Line.

Anyways, this is honestly making me a bit jealous because I love working on stuff like this. I'd rather be sitting at that table with a bunch of coworkers and several boxes of pizza and 2-liters of Mountain Dew than writing what I'm writing at the moment. :)

[Calebro]

We NEED melee power creep.

But it shouldn't come via stacking enhancements from different sources. All that will do is lower the number of effective build options.
It should instead come from improvements to individual enhancements, which should then *not* stack with certain others. That's the only way to do it and keep varying builds competitive.

[waterboytkd]

We're in the shaping process. They've allowed us a little access to this process when usually we have none. To not address our concerns would be a mistake.

I agree wholeheartedly. To not address our concerns would be the biggest mistake they could make. If your concern is that, as the PrEs exist now, there will be bonkers combinations, and that something should be done to mitigate this, then I can agree with you 100%.

And I think they've done some mitigation already. The old way: a PrE to tier 3 costs 8 AP, plus whatever you had to spend on prereqs. A SD on a caster would then be broken, because it would represent a massive durability boost with a minimal loss in casting power. The new way: a PrE to tier 3 costs 30 AP, which is a massive commitment. A caster that takes SD is spending a huge amount of SP on abilities that they probably won't take too much advantage of, but even if they could do it with just hp boosting and damage mitigation enhancements, they would still be locking themselves out of some kind of caster progression to do it. Example: a Savant that picked up SD would probably be able to only spec for 1 element, giving them a lot less fire power than a savant that is specced for two elements.

[TiranBlade]

I think this is an excelent step in the right direction. It sounds intriquing and a lot more user friendly. I'm definately looking forward to the much more versitile builds that will come from this as well as being able to tempest without having to burn my first 6 levels of ranger on specific feats.

Good job so far and I hope the feedback is productive enough to work the kinks out!

TiranBlade, Time Killer

[Havok.cry]

I'm still wondering what the devs word on the whole general enhancement issue is. There is already 20+ pages on the subject here, so I think we've said everything we can on it. Are you guys willing to change anything, allay our worries, or just gonna do it your way regardless?

[waterboytkd]

In other words the one example we have seen is dramatically better then it was before.

Well, considering that one example is considered one of the worst melee PrEs in the game (Tempest), I sure as doodoo hope it was dramatically better. Just because a substandard PrE got a decent boost does not mean all PrEs are getting a decent boost.

[moriedhel]

First, the "new" UI looks exactly like a lot of the more popular MMO's skill distribution screen, it might be better but it's certainly not anything truly new.

Secondly, i don't really care about discussing balance at this point, as i am more than sure that no matter what decisions they make they are going to mess up in one way or another. I'm pretty sure that they will break some builds, buff a few up and make a bunch more OP builds possible.

The only thing i ask is that after they release this, they actually put effort in repairing what they broke. Give everyone a way to reset free. Release the system without exploits and major bugs. Keep it at least 2-3 months in live testing and get a power leveling event up so people can test all the various combinations and *listen to the feedback*.

EDIT: I also wanted to add that I have very little faith in the developers releasing a "new and improved" version of a system that they couldn't finish and keep balanced in the first place.

[orakio]

Ok, I've followed the thread pretty closely. So, I can see some of the concerns (which are quite valid).

Concerns:

1. This new system ULTIMATELY gives us LESS flexibility than before.
2. Heavy splashes lose because of the tree limitations.
3. Power Creep.
4. New UI is driving decisions on PrEs instead of finishing PrEs and then making a UI work around them.
5. Many desire unlimted trees OR at least a general tree.



SOLUTION WHERE EVERYONE WINS (Minus the crit-ragers or whatever, but that's a separate issue):

1. Keep the Race +3 Tree limit. UI change can go as-planned
2. EACH PrE tree would have ALL (or close to all) general class abilities available up the far left side of the tree box. (solves problems with deep splashes and no need for a "general tab")
3. PrE abilities and enchancements will NOT stack. Also, If you took higher tiers or wind stance in Shintao tree, it would lock that general enh out in the Ninja tree (reduces power creep)
4. GENERAL class abilities would NOT count toward pre progression(the bottom stars) UNLESS required by PrE
5. Skills and toughness go to the race tree and become available/become extended based on class trees you have going.

Now everyone gets what they want. You can build a character JUST LIKE YOU CAN NOW. We get a prettier interface. Win-Win-Win.



Clarification Example #1:

Shintao Monks would have ALL OF THESE general monk abilities in their tree:

1. Void 1-4
2. All stances
3. Elemental special strikes
4. Animal specialites
5. Monk Wisdom
6. Improved Recovery


Ninjas would ALSO have ALL OF THE ABOVE in their tree. Taking them in either tree would lock out the other.




Clarification Example #2:

Earth Savants would have ALL OF THESE available to them in their tree

1. Sorc CHA
2. Subtle Spellcasting
3. Energy of Dragonblood
4. Sorc Spell Pen
5. Wand Heightening
6. Wand and Scroll mastery
7. ALL elemental + Crit lines (we'd be fine if you couldn't hit the top two upgrades in these on your opposite element and maybe the top ONE on your secondary elements)
8. Meta SP reduction lines


Water Savants would have ALL OF THE ABOVE in their tree as well. But upgrading in one would lock them out in the other.



95% of Problems Solved as far as I can see.

I agree, this really does seem like the ideal situation. As to the whole comment on "The dev's want to make things stack" i think that primarily focused on things between 2 different classes. I.E i couldn't get FB and Ravager toughness but i could get FB and Kensai toughness. Make those general class enhancements lock out same class but not racial or other class general enhancements and you pretty much have an awesome system imo.

[Ungood]

And I think they've done some mitigation already. The old way: a PrE to tier 3 costs 8 AP, plus whatever you had to spend on prereqs. A SD on a caster would then be broken, because it would represent a massive durability boost with a minimal loss in casting power. The new way: a PrE to tier 3 costs 30 AP, which is a massive commitment. A caster that takes SD is spending a huge amount of SP on abilities that they probably won't take too much advantage of, but even if they could do it with just hp boosting and damage mitigation enhancements, they would still be locking themselves out of some kind of caster progression to do it. Example: a Savant that picked up SD would probably be able to only spec for 1 element, giving them a lot less fire power than a savant that is specced for two elements.

I had hoped they would take this approach, that while we may have more options open to us, we are limited by the overall point system we have to work with it.

In much the same way the Stat Point system took over the die roll, and while it is true that any player can get a 18 (20 in some cases) in any stat they want which can appear OPed, they would then need to take lower other stats balancing out what they feel is the most important vs what offers more versatility.

In this regard, yes, the Min/Max-ers will go one way, and the Diverse players will go another, it will just open up a much larger play pen for us to work in. Kudos so far, this is looking good.

But above all, it will open a door for additional PRE's to be added in with ease and thus speed up the process by which they can be made and implemented. Sometimes, rebuilding the house is easier then trying to renovate it.

[Chai]

That doesn't make it good, it simply makes it a fact of life in MMOs, as I said. It takes a delicate balance of offering a little bit, while minimizing the creep as much as possible.
When not enough is offered players lose interest.
When too much is offered things inevitably get nerfed and players rage.
So power creep is a fact of MMO life, but it's still never a good thing.

Never a good thing is a matter of opinion. I would say that the fact that it incentivises players to continue playing the game is a good thing. Right now the major balancing issue is not between characters -vs- content. Its melee -vs- casters. Allowing melee to creep up a bit in power while keeping casters where they are would help, and be a GOOD thing. This is likely one of the reasons we see alot of melee / ranged PRE offered as racials now but not hearing too much about caster PRE offered as racials.

DDO is the one MMO on the market that nailed the power creep down as best as it could. If I play WOW or EQ clones, when a new expansion comes out two weeks later the old zones that used to be good for XP and loot are now ghost towns. 6 years after going live, this game still has 100% of its content being run. While forumits do rage from time to time on these issues, DDO is doing something right in this department which makes people want to play super old content where this doesnt happen in too many other games.

[HarveyMilk]

But it shouldn't come via stacking enhancements from different sources. All that will do is lower the number of effective build options.
It should instead come from improvements to individual enhancements, which should then *not* stack with certain others. That's the only way to do it and keep varying builds competitive.

That's not true though. If there are a good variety of stacking enhancements in different pre's, then it'll work fine. Plus, if you keep the most valued enhancements near the TOP of the trees, especially in the capstones, then the point is moot.

[Meat-Head]

If they had Stalwart Str I and II

Kensei Str I and II

PDK Str I and II

and they all stacked, it would be a buff to melee AND a reason to stay pure (at least in terms of PrEs..


BUT, it messes with multiclasses

AND it creates probs if all the wizard PrEs have Int I and II...

We can all agree that 6 points of INT on a Wizard >> 6 points of Str on a fighter in the current game.

Perhaps the Int Enh will be farther up the trees for wizards.. Somehow they have got to be careful with these.

[waterboytkd]

That's not true though. If there are a good variety of stacking enhancements in different pre's, then it'll work fine. Plus, if you keep the most valued enhancements near the TOP of the trees, especially in the capstones, then the point is moot.

This is a very good point. By forcing you to spend AP in a tree to get it's best abilities, they can really mitigate the dangers of stacking. Sure, you might be able to get two tier 5 abilities from two different trees, and stack them for great effect, but that's going to take a lot of AP (over half of your AP). So if you do it, and your guy is good for it, cool. But you're missing other goodies to do it. Which is a system I really like.


If they had Stalwart Str I and II

Kensei Str I and II

PDK Str I and II

and they all stacked, it would be a buff to melee AND a reason to stay pure (at least in terms of PrEs..


BUT, it messes with multiclasses

AND it creates probs if all the wizard PrEs have Int I and II...

We can all agree that 6 points of INT on a Wizard >> 6 points of Str on a fighter in the current game.

Perhaps the Int Enh will be farther up the trees for wizards.. Somehow they have got to be careful with these.

Also good points. Wizards take much more benefit from their primary stat than any other character out there. So these would be stacking issues to be concerned with.

I would mix the wizard up a bit. Maybe give Archmage the Int boosts, give PMs a...uh...Con boost, maybe? Or charisma? And give Wildmages a third stat boost? Something different. That would deal with the problem of too much Int stacking for a insta-killer.

[Darkrok]

In this regard, yes, the Min/Max-ers will go one way, and the Diverse players will go another, it will just open up a much larger play pen for us to work in. Kudos so far, this is looking good.

Exactly this. If it opens up a much larger play pen, creates MANY options for building the toon you want, then this will have been a great success.

[Thrudh]

end up with Crit Rage again on a Ravager who also has most or all of Arcane Archer as well.

Yeah, technically you should be the most excited about this change... Your Bowbarian will probably get a ton better... Imagine fitting in AA abilities on it!

[Tiamas]

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it.

“I don’t like it and I want to make it better” is not a real explanation for me. I like the current UI:

You got a huge pool of stuff you can choose from. That’s exactly what I expect from a DnD based game. I can do what ever I want to do, whether it makes my character stronger or a gimp is completely up to me. There are very few prerequisites of enhancements for other enhancements (except PrEs), you only have to spend a certain amount of APs and have a certain level in your class.

And now we get trees. The word alone makes me cry. Almost every other mmorpg got trees and that’s the reason I don’t play them, they are boring because you are limited in your choices. I know it was said each tree got enough stuff to make up for the losses (like ranger FE only for Deepwood, but Tempest will get something else). On the one hand this might sound like “oh alright we aren’t losing anything” but on the other hand you don’t have to think anymore about your build, just click everything in that one tree and you got all you need. Dumb minded clicking is not what I expected when the first post said:

“that should make character planning and advancement much better”


Suggestion:
If you really want to use a tree system, don’t throw the current idea of the enhancements overboard. You have a huge pool of general enhancements right now and a few of them unlock PrEs.

So instead of forcing you into a PrE tree right from the beginning:

Keep one tree per class with general enhancements. A character with three classes would have access to four trees, one racial + three general class trees.
Those general trees would be full of stuff without any restrictions (except AP spent/class level).
In addition to that, allow up to three PrE trees. These PrE trees would have really PrE specific enhancements and would have less stuff to spend points on (except you really got huge amounts of specific stuff to implement). For these now probably smaller PrE trees you can use your “three tree limit” rule. You can fill these three blank PrE trees with any of the 9 available PrEs which you unlocked with your race/3 classes.
If you want to allow 4 PrEs for 1 racial + 3 class, do that.

In the end this would allow people to either go really deep into one PrE (if there is enough bonus stuff in there), just use the general stuff for a splash or a little bit of everything.


PS: Plenty of stuff isn’t working after some minor changes, are you sure you want to change something this big, the game might not even load after this. Try to fix that stuff first, then more people would trust in you being able to do the big changes too.

[red_cardinal]

Just as a response to my own post...the devil is in the details.

It is... They are continuing the leftover work from 3 years ago. With a GUI revamp they'll say at PAX: "Hey, we did a complete new system for planning enhancements. It's now shown in trees and you can plan your character much better. It gives your character a ton of new cool options to choose from. It's coming this summer. Then we planned..."

It all about details. New UI isn't important - it's important to fix some AP costs for enhancements, finish undone prestiges, fix broken/weak feats and enhancements, fix old bugs. Who are they going to convince that a new UI and the new system isn't the old system with a new mask.

Current system would give loads of new options if AP prices would slightly change, undone prestiges finished, broken feats fixed - AND... you would get to keep your old builds viable.

No need to market this. Market a new class, adventure pack, race.

[Cyr]

And I think they've done some mitigation already. The old way: a PrE to tier 3 costs 8 AP, plus whatever you had to spend on prereqs. A SD on a caster would then be broken, because it would represent a massive durability boost with a minimal loss in casting power. The new way: a PrE to tier 3 costs 30 AP, which is a massive commitment. A caster that takes SD is spending a huge amount of SP on abilities that they probably won't take too much advantage of, but even if they could do it with just hp boosting and damage mitigation enhancements, they would still be locking themselves out of some kind of caster progression to do it. Example: a Savant that picked up SD would probably be able to only spec for 1 element, giving them a lot less fire power than a savant that is specced for two elements.

The new way a tier 3 PrE costs ZERO AP. It has 30 AP of requirements, but unlike in the old system where most of those requirements are must have this exact enhancement it is much more flexible allowing for a rather large list of enhancements.

The old system it cost 8 AP and had additional AP in requirements that were rather strict (and hence mostly useless junk for many toons).

The real trick here is that SD 3 may require some real sacrifice for that caster, but SD 1 probably will be a no brainer as those 10 AP in the SD will almost certainly include toughness enhancements for example (which sounds like they are going to a flat cost...)

The sacrifice here is only a sacrifice if the PrE tab that you are also investing in only has junk for your toon or close to junk. Everything I am hearing is that the tabs have had some work put into them already to make sure that they all are pretty interesting (melee lines seem to have melee dps lines in ones that you would not expect them to like tempest for example...)

The non-cross role tabs are going to be almost inarguably no brainers that increase power. Things like Tempest, Assassin, Kensai, FB, Ninja Spy, and Ravager are almost certainly going to work well together on a TWF toon for example (note Ravager is available to horc/helf/human as racial, but we do not know if alignment will play a role here for the PrE's like they do on base classes). Archmage, Savant, PM are almost certainly going to work well together (as is angel of vengeance for that matter). Ranged toons have AA, deepwood sniper (assuming it ever is good), battle engineer, mechanic, FB, Ravager, and assassin which are all likely to synergize well (some for bow and others for repeaters). Tank builds have SD, Ninja Spy, Defender of Siberyis, and HotD.

And all that is without going into cross role synergies. Unless the opposite tact is taken then that articulated by the developers so far where it comes to the nature of these things stacking and being purchasable together there will be builds which have some very potent combinations compared to currently that will lead to power creep.

Just killing off the first blush SD + PM is not going to do much here. In fact, that build is not even near the top of my wow possibilities right now...the divine avenger + SD is better because it let's you tank more reliably AND heal others reliably...of course full PM build parties would be possible with these new rules also which are really amusing to consider because horribly gimped melee is no longer a requirement to build a vampire build if you go helf or human....

Edit:

My predictions for the most popular builds of 2012:

Tank Pro: Fighter 18/ Rogue 2 H-elf with SD 3 and Defender of S 3 (racial) for near max HP, incoming DR, blocking DR, and AC.
Off Tanks: Ninja Spy 3 + SD 3 Dwarf or Helf, Kensai 3 + SD 3 whatever
DPS: Horc Ravager 3 + Tempest 1 + Kensai 2 Monster build, Mech 3 + full arty helf or human for max ranged dps, Ravager 3 + FB 3 Barb anything, Drow tempest 3 + assassin 3 full rogue, Halfling assassin 3 + ninja spy 3 full monk
Fun flavor: Various human/helf PM melee builds, halfling assassin 3 + full arty battle engineer for full pew/pew/pew action with vorpals, necro support builds for full necro parties such as full bard spell singer 3/warchanter 2/ PM 2 human
DC Casters: Drow PM + Archmage, Helf/human angel of Vengeance + PM (full wizard)
DPS Casters: Fire Savant + Angel of Vengeance human/helf full sorc
Tank Casters: Angel of Vengeance + SD 3 FvS dwarf, PM + SD 3 Necro Tank dwarf/warforged

[red_cardinal]

I'm still wondering what the devs word on the whole general enhancement issue is. There is already 20+ pages on the subject here, so I think we've said everything we can on it. Are you guys willing to change anything, allay our worries, or just gonna do it your way regardless?

I think most things have been said. Wait for until they get home... Maybe they'll have some time to reply, maybe they won't. Either way - not much any of us can do about it.

[andbr22]

Ok i didnt read all 50+ pages of posts.
By what you are saing changes gona be very BIG, prety much changing all builds as we knew...

I am wondering how would Monk trees look like. Monk have lot of "general enchantments" (stances, animal paths, force enchantment line). It gona be realy big changes in monk class.

Also a question. How long they gona be tested on lamnia (4-6 months, or like 1 month before update)?

I have my doubts in this "tree" system, but for sure it gona be more clear for new people.

[slimkj]

PLEASE, please seriously reconsider this. The general enhancments we are talking about should be available to every member of that class. Losing them that way will inhibit character building that will have me looking for another game. As you noted, the casters (which is what I play mostly) are seriously effected by this. This is pretty much what I feared. Please don't do it.
Yeah, sorry but I'm with this post and others. This possible approach puts a huge dampener on the proposals so far. Investing a couple of points into a tree for something you want locking out whole other trees is going to be a pain.

Are you thinking monk stances would be replicated in each tree? What about a Savant who wants a 20% dip into every elemental line because any element's spells can be useful at some point or other. Isn't the opposite element penalty enough without prohibiting the number of dmg lines they can take? What about force/repair/others? How will a Wiz work? Replicating all the dmg lines across all the PrEs will just make a big mess.

I think adding tabbing as LeLoric said and allowing other generic or further PrE tree tabs as necessary won't overcomplicate the UI, most users can cope with tab controls, and will allow greater flexibility in build. Please don't limit this, especially if it's a UI-driven decision, but even if it's a design driven decision. Finite AP already puts reasonable boundaries on the system, no need for more.

Edit: For clarity, by quoting above, I didn't mean I'd quit over it, I mean I am keen not to see certain general enhancements tied to trees and then possible trees limited in number, it'd be unnecessarily restricting what might be possible.

[Havok.cry]

I think most things have been said. Wait for until they get home... Maybe they'll have some time to reply, maybe they won't. Either way - not much any of us can do about it.

I'm hoping they are currently talking in a meeting showing the project lead all our input and discussing how they are going to adapt their plan with our feedback.

I'm am some what expecting eladrin to get on eventually and tell us why his way is better and that we will be satisfied with the way he wants it. I'm hoping he doesn't do this, but still expecting it.

[Riggs]

I would suggest past life TR bonus tree as well as bonus AP.

Each TR could grant 5 bonus AP distributed over multiple levels.
1st life = 80 AP
2nd life = 85 AP (5 bonus AP granted at level 2)
3rd life = 90 AP (5 bonus granted at level 2 and level 3)
.
.
.
12th life = 140 AP (seems like a lot, but is it really OP for a completionist?)

This would add some added motivation to reincarnate for lives 3+ when the grind truly begins.

The game needs more reasons to play level 20 content - not more reasons to start over at level 1 over and over again. And more power creep we do not need. AP = power.

[somenewnoob]

I just think that replacing the "x action points required" with "x action points required in this tree" is going to lead to cookie cutter builds and taking enhancements we don't want (which already exists to some degree with Pre requirements in some classes)

One of the things I really REALLY love about this game is the build variety, and I think this change will lead to more restricted builds.

I really hope I'm wrong. I just don't want to see this game turn into a cookie cutter build approach that is in other games.

If you want to do something with enhancements.....let's get those missing pres done......but the enhancement system isn't broken.....please don't "fix" it. There are so many other things you could focus your efforts on.

A graphical, ui enhancement would be ok, just don't kill the system that's in place.

[waterboytkd]

The real trick here is that SD 3 may require some real sacrifice for that caster, but SD 1 probably will be a no brainer as those 10 AP in the SD will almost certainly include toughness enhancements for example (which sounds like they are going to a flat cost...)

Good point. Tier 1 PrEs will be fairly easy to get. So the real question then becomes: what is acceptable for tier 1 on a PrE? Currently, SD gives +2 Str and Con, +10% hp, and +1 saves (plus other stuff that casters wouldn't care about). Assuming that the new SD is similar, maybe that's too much for tier 1 in this new system? Maybe PrEs need to be a bit more backloaded? I'm not a fan of backloading stuff, but that can take care of the issue that big PrE bonuses could be casually obtained.


Unless the opposite tact is taken then that articulated by the developers so far where it comes to the nature of these things stacking and being purchasable together there will be builds which have some very potent combinations compared to currently that will lead to power creep.

Probably. I do think melees are going to get better here. But as long as casters aren't getting a massive bump in power level, melee's getting a boost isn't going to do much on anything in terms of overall power creep.

[SickCat]

We're still figuring this stuff out. If you have opinions on which way to go, let us know!

With regards to where non PrE specific enhancement should go...I've had it in my head that, if you're going with the tree format, create a completely separate "general" tree that's the same across all classes allowing the re-use of code and giving consistency across different characters.

[dragons1ayer74]

Yeah, technically you should be the most excited about this change... Your Bowbarian will probably get a ton better... Imagine fitting in AA abilities on it!

My bow wielding crit rage barbarian already has this and he is the one I am most worried for.

[Scraap]

Since this would seem to be still in the planning stages, I'm not overly alarmed yet, but to re-iterate the point many have made on general multi-classing principles:

Taking a 2-6 level dip in something is often about closing the gaps in a characters abilities to keep aspects relevant.

If we are going to simultaneously see spread out enhancement lines and lockouts based on the lines taken, I'm not seeing flexibility via closing gaps, I'm seeing ever wider disparities.

This is a bit concerning.

[Riggs]

Yup, which will KILL existing builds.

This entire thing sounds like one giant slap in the face to existing toons the more I read about it. Everyone's power level is going to increase, but some combinations are going to be dramatically better then others.
....

This does not seem well thought out. In fact, it seems like it was barely thought out as to it's effects on existing toons and it's distorting effects on the current game.

The only plus so far is there seems to be an effort to get some feedback...hopefully before everything is set in stone.

But racial 'trees' + stacking = bad for the game.

"Only (x) race + (x) pre wanted" - yeah thats a fun way to improve the game.

[dragons1ayer74]

...
Suggestion:
If you really want to use a tree system, don’t throw the current idea of the enhancements overboard. You have a huge pool of general enhancements right now and a few of them unlock PrEs.

So instead of forcing you into a PrE tree right from the beginning:

Keep one tree per class with general enhancements. A character with three classes would have access to four trees, one racial + three general class trees.
Those general trees would be full of stuff without any restrictions (except AP spent/class level).
In addition to that, allow up to three PrE trees. These PrE trees would have really PrE specific enhancements and would have less stuff to spend points on (except you really got huge amounts of specific stuff to implement). For these now probably smaller PrE trees you can use your “three tree limit” rule. You can fill these three blank PrE trees with any of the 9 available PrEs which you unlocked with your race/3 classes.
If you want to allow 4 PrEs for 1 racial + 3 class, do that.

...


Very similar to mine and others suggestions and I really hope they look at chaining it to this route.

((I would +1 but spent them all today.))

[bhgiant]

With regards to where non PrE specific enhancement should go...I've had it in my head that, if you're going with the tree format, create a completely separate "general" tree that's the same across all classes allowing the re-use of code and giving consistency across different characters.
This might work for skill enhancements but considering how many different other general AP enhancements each class has, the general tab would be huge and cumbersome. They're going to a much simpler streamlined approach.

[Cyr]

Probably. I do think melees are going to get better here. But as long as casters aren't getting a massive bump in power level, melee's getting a boost isn't going to do much on anything in terms of overall power creep.

My favorite non completely obvious possibility is the Fire Savant plus Angel of Vengeance on a Full Sorc Helf or Human without even considering the possibility of fire enhancement lines being available in both...

Angel on lots of casters is pretty good when you think about it.

[Meat-Head]

EDIT: Deleted because, upon reflection, this is a dumb idea. :)

[Riggs]

i have 4 characters that would lose their crit rage 2. i do not appreciate having my patience squandered this way.

20% of this thread is people stuck on a years old pre that should have been hard reset years ago.

Yeah people loved it - because it was OP. Get over it. It is going away - but then Ravager will probably be OP as well.

Down with the old OP, in with the new OP.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

this is a pipe dream. many builds will be broken requiring folks to buy hearts of wood to respec.

I disagree. I dont believe "many builds" will be "broken". We already know we'll have to respec enhancements. This is a re-iteration of the exact same game mechanics. Remember, they are adding enhancements, and they are going to offer hearts of wood or some other item that will allow us to "transfer" our toons to the new system. Not doing this is suicide.

Instead of the word "broken" I see it as an opportunity to get my toons closer to their original concepts. I'm truly not worried, and do not see any need to cry wolf yet. (That doesn't mean Im not watching very closely. I'm always planning. Always.)

Dare I say, when it comes to these types of changes, I trust Turbine's decisions. Its been an aggravating 2011 for many of us, designing UI/game mechanics/combat systems are things Turbine is very good at. I hope they redeem themselves here.

[bhgiant]

Just had an idea about changing DC casters so that stacking INT from different trees wouldn't be too OP.

1. Let em stack INT.
2. Give them a Separate Spell DC Enh Line (like Dwarvin Tactics except for Spell DCs)
3. In the DC calculating formula, take out the base 10.
4. Let's say you had A pure Wizzy with all three trees in Wizzy PrEs and who took INT I and II in all 3 trees. Now they are up 2 dcs on the only system. Also in each tree, you could do Spell DC Enh 1-3 for a bonus of +1 each all stacking.

Now with max DCs you are actually up to 12 DCs through general enh whereas the old system could get you only the Int but you started with a base of 10. Which, if you added Int 1&2, brought you to the same 12 I've proposed.

?? These DC and INT Enh would have to be low on the tree tho. Otherwise casting at low lever would be... not effective most of the time.

I'm probably missing something this would affect. But, any thoughts?
A couple problems.
1 - It would require a major change in the current spell system that's probably not needed.
2 - It would make lower level casting a **** hole.
3 - it would REQUIRE every caster to take all those enhancements thereby limited their options instead of expanding them

I think an easier solution is the put the Int modifier high enough on the tree in order for only 2 lines to be taken (+4 Int) and not 3. Possibly make the +1 Int line low and then the additional +1 Int after +30AP line (basically tier III prestige). This would require a lot of sacrifice in the build just to get that extra +1 DC. I don't see and increase in 1 DC as game breaking.

[Missing_Minds]

I dont believe many builds will be broken. We already know we'll have to respec enhancements.

I refuse to use the term "broken" till we see something more fleshed out rather than just thoughts and fears.

Why? I was here for the first redo of the enhancements. I remember how that was. People crying and being afraid and we honestly got something that was better. I also remember that thread where we were asked if by doing so would it break any builds out there?
To my knowledge only my *concept* character would have been trashed by it. (it would have been a dwarf with an innate resistance to all elements of about 20 to 10 points for each main element. Back when level cap was 10, self sufficiency was a lot more difficult, we didn't have healing amp, no AH, and plat was not plentiful.)
I don't remember any other build that would have actually had been broken. Lots of screaming and crying, but not much substance from the nay sayers at all.

[Riggs]

You do know that the Juggernaut gains immunity to healing spells right?

Vordax

Yeah the benefits in a pnp setting with a high level or artificers and wizards and repeair as a skill and a limited amount of DR and slightly higher defenses is vastly different than what would happen in DDO with the massive damage flying around.

Example;
- charge bonus - useless in DDO.
- more bull rush bonuses - useless in DDO.
- immunity to mind affecting spells - great once in a while.
- immunity to death effects and necromancy - great once in a while.
- immune to stat damage - possibly useful in Lob is immune to mournland debuff, except for last point...
- immune to divine healing - 100% dealbreaker as a viable DDO character.

If implemented as any way like the pnp version - anyone taking WF Juggernaut would be excluded from 99% of raids. Reconstruct is no match for divine healing - and few casters will accept making a arcane nuker to spend a raid healing instead.

If implemented to somehow make a character tougher, but still be healed with a small penalty - would still lock out a WF Juggernaut from any hard raids that required a lot of healing - as said before - there are almost zero WF tanks that are allowed to tank the highest levels - because of healing amp/healing penalty.

Unless the DR approached 50, or damage reduction approached 50% of damage taken - it would be a waste of time and resources to bother doing anything with the pre.

[Riggs]

What if instead of selecting the tree in each pane of the enhancement window, you have three for each selected class that you swap all at once. You can spend points in any of the trees (up to class level limits) but each pane would let you set if you want to activate the Prestige Class bonuses, up to three.

This way you do not lock out enhancements from splash levels, and the 1% of players that purposefully don't want a PrE at all (why, I can't fathom) are not forced to.

+1 to that.

[Missing_Minds]

You do know that the Juggernaut gains immunity to healing spells right?

Vordax

I know I didn't. And with that feat being removed of IF now I see why juggernaut may never see the light of day.

It all depends how much the devs want to mess with PnP for the fun of a video game.

But quite honestly, if you consider pale master and negative energy healing, is it really so different?

[Thrudh]

I was here for the first redo of the enhancements. I remember how that was. People crying and being afraid and we honestly got something that was better.

That was my first experience with the "Doooom!" crowd, and I remember thinking "Wow, internet nerd-rage is scary". Like now, I counseled a wait and see approach, was called a fanboi (and other more colorful names), and as usual, I was proven right with time.

That same attitude has served me well for 5 years. Every change is "Dooom!" and we always adapt and overcome and usually end up even stronger than before.

[Chai]

My predictions for the most popular builds of 2012:

Tank Pro: Fighter 18/ Rogue 2 H-elf with SD 3 and Defender of S 3 (racial) for near max HP, incoming DR, blocking DR, and AC.
Off Tanks: Ninja Spy 3 + SD 3 Dwarf or Helf, Kensai 3 + SD 3 whatever
DPS: Horc Ravager 3 + Tempest 1 + Kensai 2 Monster build, Mech 3 + full arty helf or human for max ranged dps, Ravager 3 + FB 3 Barb anything, Drow tempest 3 + assassin 3 full rogue, Halfling assassin 3 + ninja spy 3 full monk
Fun flavor: Various human/helf PM melee builds, halfling assassin 3 + full arty battle engineer for full pew/pew/pew action with vorpals, necro support builds for full necro parties such as full bard spell singer 3/warchanter 2/ PM 2 human
DC Casters: Drow PM + Archmage, Helf/human angel of Vengeance + PM (full wizard)
DPS Casters: Fire Savant + Angel of Vengeance human/helf full sorc
Tank Casters: Angel of Vengeance + SD 3 FvS dwarf, PM + SD 3 Necro Tank dwarf/warforged

YUS!!! Halfling artificer racial assassin, with 45 assassinate DC, blade barrier, flame turret, and full on self healing. Assassinate needs to be a sneak attack? Good thing I got this 68 AC 700 HP dog to send in to get the mobs attention...

Yes folks, pandoras box will be opened when this happens. :p

[bhgiant]

I know I didn't. And with that feat being removed of IF now I see why juggernaut may never see the light of day.

It all depends how much the devs want to mess with PnP for the fun of a video game.

But quite honestly, if you consider pale master and negative energy healing, is it really so different?
Yes to the last question. Pale Masters sit in the back with their death aura on and ideally take little damage because the melee have all the aggro. This would not be the case with the Juggernaut. It would be on the front lines, no aura, with aggro and taking tons of damage because that is what it was made for. I personally would love to see the Juggernaut in action but without some way to mitigate the healing requirement, it will never see the light of day (much like how WF tanks are now).

[LeLoric]

I think it's a little to early to talk of major power creep with these changes as we really know very little about what is going to be in each tree.

The one we know the most about is tempest and in actuality we still know little. The actual prestige bonuses are staying mostly the same excpet the scimitar finessable thing and deflect arrows which are of minimal use and the offhand dmg bonus at the capstone. We also know that tempest line doesn't include favored enhancments but get something with similar dps.

I think all melees will probably see a jump as they are able to get mulitple pres. This isnt a bad thing melees need a boost right now.

Sure theres some possibly scenarios that could be extremely strong like the palemaster archmage combos or similar but in reality the devs are probably already aware of these and have made safeguards against too much power for certain combos.

Ideally most prestiges should be of roughly equal power level but different flavor so that a x/y/z prestige como is rougly the same as an a/b/c combo. The devs have provided info pretty early and have also talked of showing us specific things well in advance so that we can have some input in making the prestiges generally equal in value.

Saying a certain prestige combo though right now is just going to be too overpowered and noone will play anything else is kinda jumping the gun considereing we have no clue what said combo will actually do.

[macubrae]

“I don’t like it and I want to make it better” is not a real explanation for me. I like the current UI:

PS: Plenty of stuff isn’t working after some minor changes, are you sure you want to change something this big, the game might not even load after this. Try to fix that stuff first, then more people would trust in you being able to do the big changes too.

^^THIS^^

Is the current UI broken? Is it the cause of all of this year's exploits, bugs and lag? If so, by all means replace it. But why would you take a five year step backwards and implement a more restrictive UI?

You're getting a sizable cheering section with the announcement that more PrE's will be released with it. Most of them should have been released over a year ago anyway. I guess my question is...

Is this actually going to FIX anything?

[voodoogroves]

Just had an idea about changing DC casters so that stacking INT from different trees wouldn't be too OP.


1. Let em stack INT.
2. Give them a Separate Spell DC Enh Line (like Dwarvin Tactics except for Spell DCs)
3. In the DC calculating formula, take out the base 10.
4. Let's say you had A pure Wizzy with all three trees in Wizzy PrEs and who took INT I and II in all 3 trees. Now they are up 2 dcs on the only system. Also in each tree, you could do Spell DC Enh 1-3 for a bonus of +1 each all stacking.

Now with max DCs you are actually up to 12 DCs through general enh whereas the old system could get you only the Int but you started with a base of 10. Which, if you added Int 1&2, brought you to the same 12 I've proposed.

?? These DC and INT Enh would have to be low on the tree tho. Otherwise casting at low lever would be... not effective most of the time.

I'm probably missing something this would affect. But, any thoughts?

Please don't change core mechanic so you can add more wonkiness.

Let's just give some enhancements as non-pathing, please? That's the deal right? Someone wants to dip barb so they can get sprint boost, but not if it locks them out of all their other PRE options.

Don't let them double dip; if it appears on both - let it be the same, just appearing on each.

[bhgiant]

YUS!!! Halfling artificer racial assassin, with 45 assassinate DC, blade barrier, flame turret, and full on self healing. Assassinate needs to be a sneak attack? Good thing I got this 68 AC 700 HP dog to send in to get the mobs attention...

Yes folks, pandoras box will be opened when this happens. :p
Halfling ranger for a pure ranged would be better imo. Deepwood sniper to increase the range of the SA 25 meters instead of 15 (needed to tier III vorpal). Plus manyshot with AA firing 4 arrows a second would beat an endless fuselage any day (vorpals up the wazooo!). I'm going to call this build "Headshot"!

[Calebro]

Allowing melee to creep up a bit in power while keeping casters where they are would help, and be a GOOD thing.

Melee power levels aren't the problem. Caster power levels are the problem.
But now we're diverging into a Let's Talk: Class Balance.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I refuse to use the term "broken" till we see something more fleshed out rather than just thoughts and fears.

Why? I was here for the first redo of the enhancements. I remember how that was. People crying and being afraid and we honestly got something that was better. I also remember that thread where we were asked if by doing so would it break any builds out there?

Exactly. I dont have the time to tell each naysayer why its way to early to cry. I've been to this rodeo before, as well :).

Bottom line, I'm retro fitting each toon I have to the new template. Its not a matter of "if", its simply a matter of "when".

I would simply recommend to everyone to write down your feats/skills/enhancements, and if needed, the concept/goals for each character you have. Play a bit on Lamma land and check out the mechanics yourself before everything goes live. Once YOU are ready to go live, you'll be well prepared.

[budalic]

Yes to the last question. Pale Masters sit in the back with their death aura on and ideally take little damage because the melee have all the aggro. This would not be the case with the Juggernaut. It would be on the front lines, no aura, with aggro and taking tons of damage because that is what it was made for. I personally would love to see the Juggernaut in action but without some way to mitigate the healing requirement, it will never see the light of day (much like how WF tanks are now).

Um, no, pale masters usually benefit from aggro (torc, easier to wail, stuff). They also usually take care of their hp.

And issue is that Jugg is intended for melee primary classes that have no way to self heal; and are required to participate in raids where main method of survivial is mass heal/mass cure critical.

[Riggs]

This morning after thinking about this topic last night, discussing it in guild, and talking to other players I have to admit I am both excited and concerned about the prospect of what this might bring.

My first concern has to do with power creep. Sorry after reading this I have concluded (whether it is correct or not) that Turbine is grabbing those players on the bottom and pulling them to the middle, grabbing those in the middle and pulling them towards the top, and unfortunately strapping a rocket booster on to the character designs that need the least amount of help and propelling them into a new orbit.

While we play a game that has pretty close to infinite possibility for character designs the reality is we have a few cookie cutter designs that work in the current game. I’d argue about 6 to 10 with a couple variations of each based up class/racial makeup. To me this change isn’t going to make more designs viable rather it is going to solidify those 6 to 10 cookie cutter designs as the leaders.

What leads me to this conclusion is how the devs had described access to enhancements under the tree model. To me it seems as if the Racial and Class Trees are TOO LIMITING to allow characters to effectively pick and choose what matches their play style and ideas for characters.


In my opinion to make more play styles and characters viable to the game we need to have improved AI Scripting, improved Ranged Attack (Damage), viable AC builds in Epic content, More variations in Mobs (AI and Stats) and the list goes on and on. The question that needs to be asked is what is a Warpriest or Arcane Archer or Deepwoods Sniper or … bringing to the table at End Game.
What a character brings to the table shouldn't be always about DPS and Healing. Crowd Control, Tanking, Damage Mitigation, trash duty, Buff, Debuff, short term DPS, long term DPS, and so on and so forth also have to be included.
So the question to me becomes how does this enhancement change bring about more viability of character builds without solidifying a small number of builds as the most viable.
I understand there will always be better builds, and players more suited to play one style over the other, but the current system clearly has best builds, average builds and bad builds.

My next thought is how does this change effect multi-class characters and the reasons we choose multi-class characters in the first place. I have a character that was designed to be the highest DPS under a flanking condition, assuming a Tank Could hold Agro. Of course the change to TWF and Crit modifiers stop my playing of that character.
the problem is we choose the class and layouts based upon what we could and couldn't do. While my character is notas viable as it once was it still makes sense, if suddenly I no longer have access to a point of Dex or Flanking Bonuses or ... because of how the new enhancement trees are laid out I would be very concerned.

Will multiple class characters be able to take PrE to completion even though they aren't level 18 in that class?

What about Capstones?
It appears we will now have access to a Racial Capstone (Arcane Archer whoopie?) and three PrE Capstones but not a Class Capstone?

How do Past Life Feats play into this?
I believe that Past Life Feats should have the ability to be enhanced in a new enhancement system.

I think all characters should have access to every enhancement regardless of class, race and anything else people suggest. However I think that things like Race, Class, Alignment, Selected Feats and other choosen fields should greatly impact the cost of those enhancements. As an example every Race has access to Dex Enahncements at a cost of 4, 5, 6, 7 AP per +1 to the Dex Stat. However an Elf would have the costs at 2, 3, 6, 7. (The exact points would need to be layed out later)



Deserves quoting.

I have multiple characters that were great builds, then the game changed, some were rebuilt, some deleted, some abandoned as mules.

The game keeps changing radically - generally for the good, but with a lot of bad mixed in along the way. I am getting pretty tired of making new builds, or having to spent points on hearts or TRing old builds just to make them useful in new content.

As above - there is already too much power creep - so there are very few really viable builds out there - because the benchmarks for key points - intim, ac, str, healing amp and/or damage reduction - are only available to a few races/builds.

Turbine has proven many times in the past that any benefits players get is reflected in the power levels of monsters soon after.

So more stacking bonuses simply means soon after we will once again have a situation where only a few builds will be 'viable for endgame tanking/raiding/dps' - and everyone else with their puny 400 hp 28 str/52 ac builds will not only not be useful anymore - they will be SO un-useful as to might as well have 0 in those key areas for all the good it will do them.

The difference between a top tier build should be visible, and in a d20 system someone should be say - 5-10 points better than someone who has a less focused build - but is still trying to max out a certain area (ac/str/intim/etc) - but the game as it is now has builds with a 40 point difference in strength, 40-60 points more ac for a dedicated build/gear etc. A cleric with raid/epic full plate, raid/epic shield, and at least some ac gear could hit a what - 50 ac? Good for trash mobs on normal, not 'epic or raidworthy' at all in DDO.

When the level cap was 16, I had a couple characters that could hit a 60 ac with every piece of gear available at the time, a couple could hit 70, or one 80 with raid buffs. That was a useful ac once. Now it is only useful on trash or on normal, or on non-level 20 quests.

This new system sounds a lot like the benchmarks for what a character can get are going to go way up yet again, which a month later will mean monsters power levels go way up - and everyone not super-duper optimized will be even more useless in high level content than they are now.

We should not need a 120 ac to be useful(anything over 90 is just insanity). We should not need 1000 hp to be considered useful. We should not need 200% healing amp just to live through a raid boss. We should not need 300% arcane damage bonuses just to be considered a force.

Instead we are going to get yet more stacking, more big numbers..like I said before - what will the new benchmark be? 1500 hp? 150 ac? 100 str dps barbs? What kind of monsters will have to be powered up to be a challenge for the new uber builds?

Oh - and as always - mana pots. How much of this game would be different under a much lower healing and nuking setting if mana pots only gave back as much as a cure serious gave in hp? The game would have far less massive damage being thrown at the players because overhealing and drinking your way out of every problem would not exist.

[Cyr]

Saying a certain prestige combo though right now is just going to be too overpowered and noone will play anything else is kinda jumping the gun considereing we have no clue what said combo will actually do.

Basic structure of this scheme is being discussed now. If we don't point out the potential interesting combinations and percieved flaws of these things quick enough then the dev team moves on and sets it in stone. We have seen this time and time again. They almost never actually give us these things at a stage where it is really feasible for them to take a step back and reconsider. They claim they are doing so now, so let's take advantage of it and not worry about not knowing enough, but instead give our feedback based upon what is currently being discussed. When that changes we can change our feedback to address that.

[bhgiant]

^^THIS^^

Is the current UI broken? Is it the cause of all of this year's exploits, bugs and lag? If so, by all means replace it. But why would you take a five year step backwards and implement a more restrictive UI?

You're getting a sizable cheering section with the announcement that more PrE's will be released with it. Most of them should have been released over a year ago anyway. I guess my question is...

Is this actually going to FIX anything?
I highly doubt this is going to "fix" any bugs, but why would it? There will always be bugs in DDo, is that any reason to stop developing the game? The current UI for enhancements is atrocious and I can say that because I'm a pretty new player (joined in the summer). It takes me far too long to plan what I am going to do and then way to long just to scroll through them and FIND the freaking enhancement I want! Adding a simpler, easier to understand and visually appealing and accurate UI can't be a bad thing, new enhancements and changes aside.

DDO has an incredibly high learning curve. I ran around for about a month with 2 ogre strength items and 2 resistance items on. My first character was a rogue barb bard because with all my planning, I thought it would rock (little did I know...). Anything to make the game more available to new players and to lessen headaches on existing players is a win-win in my book.

[Darkrok]

YUS!!! Halfling artificer racial assassin, with 45 assassinate DC, blade barrier, flame turret, and full on self healing. Assassinate needs to be a sneak attack? Good thing I got this 68 AC 700 HP dog to send in to get the mobs attention...

Yes folks, pandoras box will be opened when this happens. :p

That build does mean that you'd have to be using a melee weapon. Not that you couldn't swap to a weapon that had int-bonus to hit cast on it, assassinate, then swap back to ranged of course. :)

[Riggs]

This, this, this. Keep the flexibility of the old system with this easy to implement, awesome idea.

To those concerned about power creep: Yes, stacking bonuses on separate trees will add to power creep. But, it will also breath much needed life into what promises to be a HUGE number of builds. A little power creep for a huge breath of life into this game is absolutely a good trade-off.

Plus, think of it this way. Enhancement-based power creep benefits everyone, as opposed to high-end gear power creep, which benefits only the longest-playing players. That means we could continue to see more difficult content added, more pugs, more life in DDO. Kudos devs. Now, the hard part, making each PrE fun. The devil is in the details.

Speaking from the perspective of someone who has not had to rebuild all their characters repeatedly? And paying TP or massive amounts of time to do so? And then having those new builds also become obsolete?

Power creep is bad. We do not need more of it, we need less of it. There should be less stacking gear bonuses too.

[LeLoric]

Basic structure of this scheme is being discussed now. If we don't point out the potential interesting combinations and percieved flaws of these things quick enough then the dev team moves on and sets it in stone. We have seen this time and time again. They almost never actually give us these things at a stage where it is really feasible for them to take a step back and reconsider. They claim they are doing so now, so let's take advantage of it and not worry about not knowing enough, but instead give our feedback based upon what is currently being discussed. When that changes we can change our feedback to address that.

Yes basic structure not class specifics we should be debating issues we see with things like not having enough panels for multiclass toons that is clearly apparent. Not knowing anything in those trees means saying x+y tree is too strong has no basis.

I am sure devs are aware of some glaring combos like have been mentioned in this thread and in reality they probably already have some built in safeguards from it becoming overpowered.

They seem pretty involved in providing us information early enough on this to give some valuable feedback that could result in changes here and this is a long long project more than 6 months out so theres plenty of time to get into specific combination issues as more info comes out to allow us make a more educated satement of x+y is too good.

[Riggs]

Sorry Thrudh i cant agree.

Turbine allowed us to keep Crit Rage in exchange for never being able to reset our enhancements.

Those that kept their Crit Ragers signed on that particular dotted line. That was nearly three years ago. You have to be pretty committed to have never Reset or Tr'd in all that time

Are you telling Zexxi that after 30 months of hard Epic grinding to give her the best set of equipment it is possible to get that i'm going to sit idly by and let Turbine kill her off.

We are talking literally thousands of hours here. Everyone that plays top end stuff on Khyber knows me and knows this to be true. Resetting the enhancements now is far more painful than if they had simply finished it totally with the introduction of U9

I have a unique Character, the last of her kind on Khyber. No way am i going without a fight

Welcome to what everyone else has been doing for years now - redoing characters due to new changes.

Dont expect any sympathy over a clearly OP enhancement that was 'removed' years ago.

[orakio]

Yes basic structure not class specifics we should be debating issues we see with things like not having enough panels for multiclass toons that is clearly apparent. Not knowing anything in those trees means saying x+y tree is too strong has no basis.

I am sure devs are aware of some glaring combos like have been mentioned in this thread and in reality they probably already have some built in safeguards from it becoming overpowered.

They seem pretty involved in providing us information early enough on this to give some valuable feedback that could result in changes here and this is a long long project more than 6 months out so theres plenty of time to get into specific combination issues as more info comes out to allow us make a more educated satement of x+y is too good.

And yet if you had more than 3 panels then any pure characters would lack for options compared to a multiclass toon. No matter what you do with the number of panels somebody is going to feel shortchanged.

3 is a great number if you consider the fact that each class has 3 pre's and you can't have more than 3 classes on a multiclass toon. You can do 1 panel for each PrE, 1 panel for each class or any combination in between. The concept of multiclassing is one of sacrificing one portion of your character to focus on another and until you have actual data you can't say whether that sacrifice is acceptable or not. Personally i feel that until i see data the concept of 3 trees is sufficient depending on how things are broken down.

If you go back to Meat-Head's post on page 55 he outlines a concept in which you can make sure enough general enhancements are included and shared between each PrE so that nobody feels like they NEED to take all 3 of a classes tree to do similar to what 12point rogue may have had access to for example.

[dkyle]

Another thing to watch out for, given the general "everything stacks" philosphy: will we gradually get to the expectation that DPS should have three DPS trees, tanks should have three Tank trees, and casters should have three Caster trees, or else each will be too weak to meet Raid standards? And how many builds will actually be able to produce those combos?

Looking over the previously announced PrEs, it looks like only one class has two clear DPS-oriented PrEs: Barbarians with Ravager and Frenzied Berserker. And what Racial PrE naturally goes with them, for maximum DPS? Tempest. Assassin is nice, but it's actually more of an insta-kill, trash-handling PrE; it's not actually that much DPS, especially since Tempest would apply a multiplicative bonus to Ravager and Frenzied Berserker's damage bonuses. So given what we know now, I would expect the ultimate, full-******, DPS-machine to be a Drow Tempest/Ravager/Frenzied Berserker. Ironically, Half-orcs will make poor Barbarians because their Ravager PrE goes to waste.

Of course, with multiclassing, it will be possible to have other triple-DPS combos, but with all the costs of multiclassing, will they really be able to compete? That Drow build is a pure Barbarian. As long as the Racial PrE overhead isn't more than 10 AP, it could fit all of FBIII, TempestII, and Ravager II. On any multiclass build, it'll be possible to get at most one tier III from the Racial, plus one tier II, and one tier I, thanks to having to split class levels.

[Calebro]

That build does mean that you'd have to be using a melee weapon. Not that you couldn't swap to a weapon that had int-bonus to hit cast on it, assassinate, then swap back to ranged of course. :)

So what. I have a DM'd halfling arty. He has stealth skills in the mid 40s. He has plenty of Dex and Int that either a +5 finesse dagger of whogivesaratsass or an eMG would work perfectly well.
Trust me, as soon as I saw that halfling's racial PrE was Assassin he is exactly the first and only thought that entered my brain.
With the possible changes to DMs freeing up a feat or two and some AP, believe you me, I would find a way to fit A3 into the build.

[Chai]

I would simply recommend to everyone to write down your feats/skills/enhancements, and if needed, the concept/goals for each character you have. Play a bit on Lamma land and check out the mechanics yourself before everything goes live. Once YOU are ready to go live, you'll be well prepared.

Yeap, for everyone who hasnt done this yet, do it now. Right now? Yes now. Before you forget.

[Riggs]

The 'right way' would be to give everyone, reguardless of build or feat selections, a heart of wood to fix their character. Also, its easy to do.

Time limited is only okay if the timer starts when you get the token and you can control that. Because people who come back to the game a year after this change shouldn't be screwed because they weren't playing right when it happens.

A +6 heart of wood for all? Short of that if a build is broken by the new changes, anything less wont fix a lot of builds.

And the guy you quoted mentioned bowbarians as a popular build. Credibility is questioned there.

[Cyr]

They seem pretty involved in providing us information early enough on this to give some valuable feedback that could result in changes here and this is a long long project more than 6 months out so theres plenty of time to get into specific combination issues as more info comes out to allow us make a more educated satement of x+y is too good.

IDK about you but the whole reason I am listing all these combos is to demonstrate that there are LOTS of them to choose from.

Basic structure is the thing indicating these combos are possible. Sure they could make everything puchasable together like they have now and then end up having to make a stance for all sorts of PrE's making them not stack with this and that, but that seems backwards to me when the basic structure itself then is being worked around systematically.

What makes more sense?

Have the developers code in tons of exceptions to get around their basic design structure with all the extra coding time and possibility for bugs or have the basic design structure follow a pattern that will require as few as possible workarounds?

[Psyker]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

If it means finishing some of the PRE's it sounds like a really good idea.

If it means we get Acrobat III and or Spellsinger III it may be the best idea I've ever heard and I will start singing the Devs Praises!

[Chai]

Welcome to what everyone else has been doing for years now - redoing characters due to new changes.

Dont expect any sympathy over a clearly OP enhancement that was 'removed' years ago.

Clearly OP enhancement then. In todays game its not OP at all.

And what "everyone else" is doing? No. What the end game forumites are doing, which is a severe minority in terms of headcount.

[dkyle]

And yet if you had more than 3 panels then any pure characters would lack for options compared to a multiclass toon. No matter what you do with the number of panels somebody is going to feel shortchanged.

Not exactly. Any multiclass gives up their highest level enhancements, for access to lower level enhancements of other classes. If we assume that enhancements are evenly distributed among all class levels, with all PrEs having equal numbers of enhancements, then even with unlimited trees, every possible class split would have the same number of enhancements available at level 20. The tradeoff would be that the multiclass gets to pick among a wider variety of low level PrE lines, while the Pure gets to pick up the highest level, likely more powerful, enhancements of his own PrE lines. Sounds pretty fair to me.

Of course, it depends on how enhancements are actually distributed, and how front/backloaded they are, but at least in principle, unlimited trees are not unfair to pure builds. The problem with 3 trees is it starkly limits the actual variety available to multiclass builds. Once those trees are locked in, they have much fewer options of enhancements to pick up. The deeper the multiclasses, the fewer the options.


3 is a great number if you consider the fact that each class has 3 pre's and you can't have more than 3 classes on a multiclass toon. You can do 1 panel for each PrE, 1 panel for each class or any combination in between. The concept of multiclassing is one of sacrificing one portion of your character to focus on another and until you have actual data you can't say whether that sacrifice is acceptable or not.

Triple PrE splits like 8/6/6 will be almost certainly be dead, because grabbing those low level PrEs will mean eschewing the full-20-range Racial PrE. Given what we know of Racial PrEs, I doubt that will ever be a good idea. Once you multiclass past a splash, it's entirely likely that your Racial PrE will be your most important PrE, not any of your class PrEs.

[Darkrok]

So what. I have a DM'd halfling arty. He has stealth skills in the mid 40s. He has plenty of Dex and Int that either a +5 finesse dagger of whogivesaratsass or an eMG would work perfectly well.
Trust me, as soon as I saw that halfling's racial PrE was Assassin he is exactly the first and only thought that entered my brain.
With the possible changes to DMs freeing up a feat or two and some AP, believe you me, I would find a way to fit A3 into the build.

Oh, I completely agree with you. Even without the assassin option I've contemplated an eMG on a caster/ranged-based arti. With the PrE that's even more powerful.

In fact, if they go this route and stick with human getting to pick one I might do the same thing on my human arti. :) Assassinate + artificer ftw!

[QuantumFX]

That build does mean that you'd have to be using a melee weapon. Not that you couldn't swap to a weapon that had int-bonus to hit cast on it, assassinate, then swap back to ranged of course. :)

Or… you could get to tier III and enjoy your vorpal radiance II heavy repeater.

[Calebro]

Or… you could get to tier III and enjoy your vorpal lit II heavy repeater.
Don't need Rad2. Puppy has aggro. :D

[stainer]

I like the sounds of this change. I hope it will be implemented in the near future, rather than Soon™. People are pretty excited about it.

[Darkrok]

I really hope they stick with the Humans get to pick. :)

That said, there'd have to be some huge enhancement changes to arti's for me to fit it in because I already dump pretty much everything but the rune arm and force lines (35 points between just those 2 lines).

[Riggs]

I agree. Forget new UI, forget new tabs. All you proposed we have already in existing UI with existing enhancements.
Let them just finish undone prestiges, slightly alter those who are to expensive/weak/not needed, fix broken ones.

You seriously think a developer, or the boss of a developer - is going to spend resource time on designing a completely new set of tier 3 lines, new lines, and finish whatever is missing from the current lines - and then 1 month later REVERSE all that work by redoing ALL the pre lines from the ground up?

Your suggestions are utterly laughable. Except its not funny because you keep repeating them over and over.

The new system is clearly already in the works and coming - the only question is the exact forms and numbers that will be in it. Not whether it is going to happen or not.

[Riggs]

You make some assumptions: first, that mobs would be fortified to compensate. Maybe Turbine sets a baseline for success, and if you can surpass that by a wide margin with an uber-build, then they say kudos to you?

But the biggest assumption that you make is that enhancements, especially PrE enhancements, will remain unchanged in this new system. There's no indication one way or the other that Archamage and Pale Master will continue to add to Necro DCs.

My guess is that the devs will begin addressing the issues with stacking PrEs as the system starts fleshing out, and that there will be substantial revisions to PrEs, especially caster PrEs.

Yes, the assumption that is based on 5 years of Turbine history.

100% of the time - extra player power = even more monster power. 100%

[Meat-Head]

A couple problems.
1 - It would require a major change in the current spell system that's probably not needed.
2 - It would make lower level casting a **** hole.
3 - it would REQUIRE every caster to take all those enhancements thereby limited their options instead of expanding them

I think an easier solution is the put the Int modifier high enough on the tree in order for only 2 lines to be taken (+4 Int) and not 3. Possibly make the +1 Int line low and then the additional +1 Int after +30AP line (basically tier III prestige). This would require a lot of sacrifice in the build just to get that extra +1 DC. I don't see and increase in 1 DC as game breaking.



Yeah.. deleted OP cause it was prolly dumb. I like your idea better.

[dkyle]

IDK about you but the whole reason I am listing all these combos is to demonstrate that there are LOTS of them to choose from.

There are certainly a lot of exciting combos, but I'm worried that almost all seem to be pure class (or 18/2), plus a racial PrE. What happens to multiclassing? What happens to most builds working with most races, with an interesting decision to decide which one to use? I'm feeling like this threatens to severely reduce both, in favor of obvious and inflexible Race+Class combos.

[BruceTheHoon]

Into the most appropriate tree, generally.

THIS is an enormous limiting factor. It severely limits ALL multiclass builds that based on 3 classes.
I'd like to know the reason for this. The only two that come to my mind are, that it would make the prestige trees look more crowded - giving a fake impression of more choice and to avoid adding another panel.
Well, the panels are going to be scrollable anyway, so I don't care if you add another one.
In my opinion, it would be better anyway, to have one panel for displaying ALL prestige trees, where a specific tree would be displayed by clicking on the appropriate tab. That way you would only ever have 2 panels displayed, so there would be plenty of room to add another one: CLASS panel. You could make the enhancement there unlocakble in the same way as prestige enhancements - number of points spent across the class (prestige or class enhancements) and level in class.

If you decide to arbitrarily place core class enhancements among the prestige ones, you'll limit EVERY build, that has 3 classes and isn't lucky enough, that has the appropriate core class enhancements in the tree of his core-class prestige-class he'll choose to keep.
An example I already have data for is the popular exploiter: 18ranger/1monk/1rogue. He'll now have to choose between favored damage and sneak attack training. Another one would also be 18ranger/1fighter/1rogue, and so on.

tl;dr: Don't arbitrarily push core enhancements into prestiges and don't be afraid to make an additional panel. Otherwise, I'm sharpening my pitchforks.

[Missing_Minds]

Welcome to what everyone else has been doing for years now - redoing characters due to new changes.

Dont expect any sympathy over a clearly OP enhancement that was 'removed' years ago.

Crit Rage I/II was overpowered in the day, but FB beats it out of the water. It no longer is the over power it once was. The only place it has now is for the bowbarians, but honestly.... I fail to see how more muscle can help you aim better in a world with no fatigue/exhaustion.

It is time to let crit rage become a memory of the past.

[Chai]

Yes, the assumption that is based on 5 years of Turbine history.

100% of the time - extra player power = even more monster power. 100%

You mean like recently when they LOWERED boss mob HP. Then gave us DOTs.

Or before that when they HALVED epic trash HP in the same update that gave sorcs their PRE where they gained huge power.

100% of the time? I just listed two RECENT examples where that didnt occur. They gave player toons more power then lowered the power of encounters in the game. There are many of us who have been around for most of this games life. All join date is showing is when the player set up their most current account. We are aware of the history.

[Missing_Minds]

I like the sounds of this change. I hope it will be implemented in the near future, rather than Soon™. People are pretty excited about it.

Go through the dev tracker, earliest is mid year. My expectancy.. end of the year. If they get ALL of the PrEs in.... ok. *shrug* it can wait and be properly working.

[Cyr]

There are certainly a lot of exciting combos, but I'm worried that almost all seem to be pure class (or 18/2), plus a racial PrE. What happens to multiclassing? What happens to most builds working with most races, with an interesting decision to decide which one to use? I'm feeling like this threatens to severely reduce both, in favor of obvious and inflexible Race+Class combos.

Agreed. You might notice that I have zero interesting Elf Builds, but lots of human, dwarf, helf, and horc builds. Oh and most are 18-20 of one class also.

[Chai]

Crit Rage I/II was overpowered in the day, but FB beats it out of the water. It no longer is the over power it once was. The only place it has now is for the bowbarians, but honestly.... I fail to see how more muscle can help you aim better in a world with no fatigue/exhaustion.

It is time to let crit rage become a memory of the past.

Muscle allows you to pull a composite bow back further which adds to the damage. Its still dex to hit.

Crit rage has been discussed as possibly being part of the ravager line. It may not be a memory. People might be able to rebuild similar concepts they played in 2007/2008. No one really knows for sure yet.

Cant wait til it hits lamannia.

[Vormaerin]

A few thoughts:

First, "everything stacks" is a misnomer. One that that Eladrin already pointed out as a safeguard is Stances. If you take DoS and SD at the same time (dwarf paladin or multiclass character), that's great. Doubtless a few things will stack. But you can't be in DoS stance at the same time you are in SD stance, so the effect is rather limited. I suspect we'll see a greater use of stances in this system. So you can do more things, but not simultaneously.

2) Multiclass characters are still more flexible than pure characters. Even if you can only have 3 class lines at once, you still have the option to switch between them easily.

3) The names on the trees seem to be confusing people.. Yes, rogue says "acrobat", "mechanic", and "assassin". You can still spend points in any or all three lines. Just because you are a mechanic focused character doesn't mean you can't get enhancements for stealth or sneak attack if they are in the assassin line. Would people's sense of flavor be less impinged if they were labeled more generically? You have a "Stealth Skills", "Trap Skills," and "Athletics Skills" trees? So you don't have to feel like you took a PrE by getting one set of skills?

Maybe I'm just not understanding the last complaint. Being a "mechanic" doesn't lock you out of any of the other skills.

4) Arguments for pulling supposedly generic enhancements out into their own tree seem to rely on the idea that you'd reduce the possible points in the specialty trees. Which would mean that the devs would not be able to give as many "free" bonuses. They'd also have to put more severe restrictions on enhancements so you can't get multiple capstones. The current system is 41pts = capstone.

[Riggs]

...
4) Item exists in both lines, locks out selection in the other lines: Again, I think this is the way to go. Obviously there are some things that should only be in one line as they're very specific to that line. There are other things, like strength on a fighter or int on a wizard, that should be available in general on any line. But if you make copies in each line and make them stack that's OP'd. If you make 2ap's spent on something like wizard int count in every PrE line you're making it too cheap to get the PrE's. Making them lock out the selection in other lines avoids both of those issues while still preserving the ability to spend the appropriate number of points in each PrE line and unlock those benefits. You just can't use overlap to make that easier.

Good post.

There should be multiple ways to get to somewhere, as long as you dont get to stack all those ways together and get 3 of the same bonuses.

[dkyle]

2) Multiclass characters are still more flexible than pure characters. Even if you can only have 3 class lines at once, you still have the option to switch between them easily.

I highly doubt this will be a real benefit, in practice. Unless you switch on a per-quest basis, I don't expect many cases were there are truly several different sets of trees worth swapping among.

[Chai]

A few thoughts:

First, "everything stacks" is a misnomer. One that that Eladrin already pointed out as a safeguard is Stances. If you take DoS and SD at the same time (dwarf paladin or multiclass character), that's great. Doubtless a few things will stack. But you can't be in DoS stance at the same time you are in SD stance, so the effect is rather limited. I suspect we'll see a greater use of stances in this system. So you can do more things, but not simultaneously.

2) Multiclass characters are still more flexible than pure characters. Even if you can only have 3 class lines at once, you still have the option to switch between them easily.

3) The names on the trees seem to be confusing people.. Yes, rogue says "acrobat", "mechanic", and "assassin". You can still spend points in any or all three lines. Just because you are a mechanic focused character doesn't mean you can't get enhancements for stealth or sneak attack if they are in the assassin line. Would people's sense of flavor be less impinged if they were labeled more generically? You have a "Stealth Skills", "Trap Skills," and "Athletics Skills" trees? So you don't have to feel like you took a PrE by getting one set of skills?

Maybe I'm just not understanding the last complaint. Being a "mechanic" doesn't lock you out of any of the other skills.

4) Arguments for pulling supposedly generic enhancements out into their own tree seem to rely on the idea that you'd reduce the possible points in the specialty trees. Which would mean that the devs would not be able to give as many "free" bonuses. They'd also have to put more severe restrictions on enhancements so you can't get multiple capstones. The current system is 41pts = capstone.

It was stated that the idea is we will get 3 class trees, 1 race tree. If you are a 13 rogue 6 monk 1 fighter Qstaff build, and have to take skills from all 3 rogue trees, are you limited to not being able to take stuff from monk tree and fighter tree due to using all 3 rogue trees? That seems to be the concern.

[red_cardinal]

You seriously think a developer, or the boss of a developer - is going to spend resource time on designing a completely new set of tier 3 lines, new lines, and finish whatever is missing from the current lines - and then 1 month later REVERSE all that work by redoing ALL the pre lines from the ground up?

Your suggestions are utterly laughable. Except its not funny because you keep repeating them over and over.

The new system is clearly already in the works and coming - the only question is the exact forms and numbers that will be in it. Not whether it is going to happen or not.

Yes. I may not be around for as long as you have been but I do believe that they're are still at the planning phase with this.

Also, I don't think they spent a lot of time to think of the details in their current tree system. They just have stars pointing here-there - the general idea. It's a rough concept - nothing more! If they don't know for sure if Tempest DEX and Assassin DEX, for example, should stack or not - they're still pondering over the whole thing.

Also, as one of them said - they're hiring new people, doing interviews, training and getting the new folk get in line with their practice, tools, environment, etc. I doubt they had a time to do write any serious code about new enhancement system.

Thanks for laughing at my suggestions because if I told you a joke - you wouldn't laugh. :D

[Darkrok]

I highly doubt this will be a real benefit, in practice. Unless you switch on a per-quest basis, I don't expect many cases were there are truly several different sets of trees worth swapping among.

Depending on how feat-feasible it is I could see a 'tanking' set of enhancements and a dps set. Especially on something like a dwarven barbarian that could choose to invest heavily in FB/Ravager lines or heavily in the SD line. Maybe swap every 3 days for a LoB run and then swap back right after the run for a 'higher plat cost'?

[Riggs]

I agree, this really does seem like the ideal situation. As to the whole comment on "The dev's want to make things stack" i think that primarily focused on things between 2 different classes. I.E i couldn't get FB and Ravager toughness but i could get FB and Kensai toughness. Make those general class enhancements lock out same class but not racial or other class general enhancements and you pretty much have an awesome system imo.

There should be zero ways to get multiple class bonuses for the same stat.

You can get necro spell focus in a couple pre's - but ONLY one bonus, not 2 not 3.

You can get toughness lines in multiple pre's - but ONLY one toughness line per character for class, plus one for race. The fact that you can get 102 hp from a single toughness feat is already overpowered.

[Missing_Minds]

Muscle allows you to pull a composite bow back further which adds to the damage. Its still dex to hit.

Exactly, and they "faked" composites horribly with "bow strength". So again, given that rage only adds str and con, how does crit rage allow you to crit hit with a bow more often?

So no, let crit rage go bye bye. Even I let go of it.

[Darkrok]

It was stated that the idea is we will get 3 class trees, 1 race tree. If you are a 13 rogue 6 monk 1 fighter Qstaff build, and have to take skills from all 3 rogue trees, are you limited to not being able to take stuff from monk tree and fighter tree due to using all 3 rogue trees? That seems to be the concern.

I do wonder about that quite a bit which is why I made the suggestion that Riggs quoted. That would make it less likely that you would 'have' to take all 3 rogue trees. You might want to do so but the core of the rogue class would be available in any of the 3 trees. Although I would argue that the main sneak damage would actually be one of those enhancements that fits better as assassin only. I wouldn't like it as a rogue but I think it makes thematic sense.

[red_cardinal]

Yes, the assumption that is based on 5 years of Turbine history.
100% of the time - extra player power = even more monster power. 100%

I don't know how you know Turbine or this game. One thing that does hit my mind is that epics before
Red Fens were totally sloppy (loads of immunities and HP) and not done as they should've been done. After U9 they fixed it, so to speak - so epics are doable with good tactics. It was a bit, shall we say, late. But, better late than never, I guess.

[Chai]

Exactly, and they "faked" composites horribly with "bow strength". So again, given that rage only adds str and con, how does crit rage allow you to crit hit with a bow more often?

So no, let crit rage go bye bye. Even I let go of it.

Yeah it should be a melee enhancement. They can certainly make a ranged version of it if they wanted similar to kensai 3, it just wouldnt be "Im so mad I land criticals with a bow more often" :p

[Havok.cry]

It was stated that the idea is we will get 3 class trees, 1 race tree. If you are a 13 rogue 6 monk 1 fighter Qstaff build, and have to take skills from all 3 rogue trees, are you limited to not being able to take stuff from monk tree and fighter tree due to using all 3 rogue trees? That seems to be the concern.

It does that and more. This system is basicly murdering the flavor of the base class. As I said in many posts previously, no one will be able to play a rogue... You won't even be able to play an assassin. Youll be able to play an assassin/acrobat, or a mechanic/assassin. The trees have too few points to go with a pure PRE, and you are forced to pick not 1, but multiple PREs. Killing the flavor while reducing multiclass limits. They can fix this by giving us a general class tree, separate from the PREs, or any number of other ways various people have stated throughout this thread.

[Snarglefrump]

Suggestion: When you roll out this feature, give everyone an assortment of Lesser Hearts of the Wood and sell them in the store for 90% off for 2 full update cycles. That way, if you make a particular build no longer viable (or severely underpowered compared to new options), the player can change their build. And if you need to make some major tweaks after the initial release, Lesser Hearts will be available for cheap.

Helping players retool their builds will help reduce ill-will. Also, if you can commit to giving out Lesser Hearts in advance, it will reassure us all that the effort we're putting in to a toon now won't be for naught later.

[red_cardinal]

Welcome to what everyone else has been doing for years now - redoing characters due to new changes.


New changes to feats, enhancements and game difficulty (scaling) should've happened along every content release they made. Changes to tactics and characters did happen, but it wouldn't be as radical as it's going to be now - 3 years nothing and now BOOM.

If they actually did something in that area, it was done 'in a flash'. Remember the time when they release LoB in U11 and when they saw that nobody is rolling a S&B tank because SD and DoS actually weren't generating enough aggro? What did they do, huh, what? They added bonuses to threat generation for both prestiges in one day! So much about how they monitor gameplay and know what really the game needs. They live in a closed system of information flow and come up after 3 years with - Let's talk! Where were they until now?!

[Darkrok]

It does that and more. This system is basicly murdering the flavor of the base class. As I said in many posts previously, no one will be able to play a rogue... You won't even be able to play an assassin. Youll be able to play an assassin/acrobat, or a mechanic/assassin. The trees have too few points to go with a pure PRE, and you are forced to pick not 1, but multiple PREs. Killing the flavor while reducing multiclass limits. They can fix this by giving us a general class tree, separate from the PREs, or any number of other ways various people have stated throughout this thread.

I don't mind part of what you're concerned with here. I don't mind if we're forced to choose 3 pre's. I'm concerned if we're forced to choose 3 Pre's just to get basic class skills and that locks us out of pre's from our other classes. As you mentioned, there have been multiple suggestions in the thread here to address that.

[Aashrym]

There are certainly a lot of exciting combos, but I'm worried that almost all seem to be pure class (or 18/2), plus a racial PrE. What happens to multiclassing? What happens to most builds working with most races, with an interesting decision to decide which one to use? I'm feeling like this threatens to severely reduce both, in favor of obvious and inflexible Race+Class combos.

I have a concern about pure classes too after giving it some thought. I'm wondering what is going to be happening with the existing capstones if we are looking at individual PrE capstones. Multiple capstone choices sounds great but some capstones are already full of great and those could be at risk.

[Missing_Minds]

Yeah it should be a melee enhancement. They can certainly make a ranged version of it if they wanted similar to kensai 3, it just wouldnt be "Im so mad I land criticals with a bow more often" :p

*snickers* however, I can deff see that working with throwing weapons (as it should). Tick of that barmaid only to see her rage? Maybe you can outrun her, but good luck out running that arm.

*makes note of such for pnp should I ever run a setting.*

[Riggs]

...

Edit:

My predictions for the most popular builds of 2012:

Tank Pro: Fighter 18/ Rogue 2 H-elf with SD 3 and Defender of S 3 (racial) for near max HP, incoming DR, blocking DR, and AC.
Off Tanks: Ninja Spy 3 + SD 3 Dwarf or Helf, Kensai 3 + SD 3 whatever
DPS: Horc Ravager 3 + Tempest 1 + Kensai 2 Monster build, Mech 3 + full arty helf or human for max ranged dps, Ravager 3 + FB 3 Barb anything, Drow tempest 3 + assassin 3 full rogue, Halfling assassin 3 + ninja spy 3 full monk
Fun flavor: Various human/helf PM melee builds, halfling assassin 3 + full arty battle engineer for full pew/pew/pew action with vorpals, necro support builds for full necro parties such as full bard spell singer 3/warchanter 2/ PM 2 human
DC Casters: Drow PM + Archmage, Helf/human angel of Vengeance + PM (full wizard)
DPS Casters: Fire Savant + Angel of Vengeance human/helf full sorc
Tank Casters: Angel of Vengeance + SD 3 FvS dwarf, PM + SD 3 Necro Tank dwarf/warforged

And right there is why same type bonuses should not be stacking - Eladrin commented on it would be cool for a ranger to have Tempest and AA - which for a ranger makes more sense - one is a melee pre and one a ranged.

Stacking both barb pre's will just be stupidly OP. Two defender lines would be stupidly OP.

The only way around it seems that many lines will be stances now. But even then there will be static bonuses - like dual defender could have a full plate and a 36 dex and still use every point for ac on top of the static +3 ac SD gets now.

Stacking two tier 3 lines is going to lead to bad things pretty much any way you want to cut it.

Honestly they should reconsider racial lines going to tier 3 at all. All a racial bonus should do is say - open up tier 1, maybe tier 2, and make the AP costs slightly cheaper to get to tier 3. Otherwise it is going to be a lot of power creep.

[Solmage]

Absolutely amazing description. I was worried about the tree design but that pic and your explanation put alot of my fears to rest.

A faster explanation (albeit not useful for a (small?:)) segment of our playerbase) could have been: We took the tree system from TOR, and added additional customization for multi-classes - let THEM fools spend millions of dollars designing stuff :))

[We even went so far as to copy their re-spec system and spend points anywhere thing, even if THAT part of their system sucks compared to ours. But hey they now have over a million subscribers, many of them ex-subs from us, so clearly they're doing something right]

[Riggs]

I think most things have been said. Wait for until they get home... Maybe they'll have some time to reply, maybe they won't. Either way - not much any of us can do about it.

You might be shocked to know they work during the day. If they post from home that means they are doing it unofficially on their own time.

[Darkrok]

You might be shocked to know they work during the day. If they post from home that means they are doing it unofficially on their own time.

And I don't think they're not posting because they don't care. I'd imagine they're in that room I was wishing to be in earlier, with the pizza boxes stacked high and the empties of the 2-liters of Dew starting to fall on the floor now, banging out the details on a lot of this stuff. It's not that they won't listen to our feedback but more that they have to decide what they think (as a group as opposed to individuals) before they can even begin to consider what we think.

[dkyle]

It does that and more. This system is basicly murdering the flavor of the base class. As I said in many posts previously, no one will be able to play a rogue... You won't even be able to play an assassin. Youll be able to play an assassin/acrobat, or a mechanic/assassin. The trees have too few points to go with a pure PRE, and you are forced to pick not 1, but multiple PREs. Killing the flavor while reducing multiclass limits. They can fix this by giving us a general class tree, separate from the PREs, or any number of other ways various people have stated throughout this thread.

You are getting hung up on the labels. They're just terms that are evocative of 3.5 PrCs being applied to categories of enhancements that form very logical groupings aligned with the traditional aspects of Rogues: their killing power, their gymnastic athleticism, and their trap skills. Putting points in the Assassin doesn't make your Rogue an Assassin. It just improves your "killing things" abilities. Playing your Rogue like an Assassin makes it an Assassin. And honestly, I don't really think there even are Assassins, in any real sense, in DDO. Assassination isn't actually used to assassinate in DDO. It's used to instantly kill a combatant on the battlefield. That's a lot more like sniping than assassination. And usually, it's basically just jumping through the air, and stabbing something in the face.

Also, you don't know how many points can go into each PrE. I'd be very surprised (and very disappointed) if there were only 41 points per PrE possible. Needing to take every single enhancement in the tree, with no options, to get the PrE capstone would be a very bad thing. If you've got 50 points in Acrobat, and, say, 10 points in Racials, and about 5 each in Assassin and Mechanic, is it really so hard to say that your character is an Acrobat, who spent a little time learning how to kill things better, and dealing with traps better? Is he really suddenly an Assassin just because he picked up some sneak attack enhancements, and a game UI told you that it came from the Assassin tree?

[voodoogroves]

Honestly they should reconsider racial lines going to tier 3 at all. All a racial bonus should do is say - open up tier 1, maybe tier 2, and make the AP costs slightly cheaper to get to tier 3. Otherwise it is going to be a lot of power creep.

If a full PRE is 41 points, I'm not sure it'll be that broken ...

[Cyr]

If a full PRE is 41 points, I'm not sure it'll be that broken ...

It's not. That is the 'capstone' cost. Which I am unclear on if it requires 20 levels in the class to get or not.

30 points is the tier 3 cost.

[Darkrok]

If 41 points is the capstone then I'm guessing we may be seeing something like rogues have now - different capstones for each and every PrE. Just a guess but it sounds likely.

[stainer]

the same suggestions over and over again.

I think this is how we got national health care. :)

[Riggs]

You mean like recently when they LOWERED boss mob HP. Then gave us DOTs.

Or before that when they HALVED epic trash HP in the same update that gave sorcs their PRE where they gained huge power.

100% of the time? I just listed two RECENT examples where that didnt occur. They gave player toons more power then lowered the power of encounters in the game. There are many of us who have been around for most of this games life. All join date is showing is when the player set up their most current account. We are aware of the history.

You mean after their raised boss hp first?

You mean after epic monsters got stupid high hp in the first place? and hold/stun was changed to not be all crits but 50% more damage instead? Raising howls from all the pick users?

yes, maybe 6 months after making a bunch of massively OP combos - the nurf bat will come out and everyone will have to redo their builds yet again. History.

Memory is a spotty thing it seems for some. Keep at it though you will get there.

And as already said - arguing about sorcs vs melee belongs in the class balance thread.

[Aelonwy]

Ok, I've followed the thread pretty closely. So, I can see some of the concerns (which are quite valid).

Concerns:

1. This new system ULTIMATELY gives us LESS flexibility than before.
2. Heavy splashes lose because of the tree limitations.
3. Power Creep.
4. New UI is driving decisions on PrEs instead of finishing PrEs and then making a UI work around them.
5. Many desire unlimted trees OR at least a general tree.



SOLUTION WHERE EVERYONE WINS (Minus the crit-ragers or whatever, but that's a separate issue):

1. Keep the Race +3 Tree limit. UI change can go as-planned
2. EACH PrE tree would have ALL (or close to all) general class abilities available up the far left side of the tree box. (solves problems with deep splashes and no need for a "general tab")
3. PrE abilities and enchancements will NOT stack. Also, If you took higher tiers or wind stance in Shintao tree, it would lock that general enh out in the Ninja tree (reduces power creep)
4. GENERAL class abilities would NOT count toward pre progression(the bottom stars) UNLESS required by PrE
5. Skills and toughness go to the race tree and become available/become extended based on class trees you have going.

Now everyone gets what they want. You can build a character JUST LIKE YOU CAN NOW. We get a prettier interface. Win-Win-Win.
95% of Problems Solved as far as I can see.


I could get behind this^!

This is a problem:

I don't mind part of what you're concerned with here. I don't mind if we're forced to choose 3 pre's. I'm concerned if we're forced to choose 3 Pre's just to get basic class skills and that locks us out of pre's from our other classes. As you mentioned, there have been multiple suggestions in the thread here to address that.

This is referencing Eladrin "Into the most appropriate tree generally."

THIS is an enormous limiting factor. It severely limits ALL multiclass builds that based on 3 classes.
I'd like to know the reason for this. The only two that come to my mind are, that it would make the prestige trees look more crowded - giving a fake impression of more choice and to avoid adding another panel.
Well, the panels are going to be scrollable anyway, so I don't care if you add another one.
In my opinion, it would be better anyway, to have one panel for displaying ALL prestige trees, where a specific tree would be displayed by clicking on the appropriate tab. That way you would only ever have 2 panels displayed, so there would be plenty of room to add another one: CLASS panel. You could make the enhancement there unlocakble in the same way as prestige enhancements - number of points spent across the class (prestige or class enhancements) and level in class.

If you decide to arbitrarily place core class enhancements among the prestige ones, you'll limit EVERY build, that has 3 classes and isn't lucky enough, that has the appropriate core class enhancements in the tree of his core-class prestige-class he'll choose to keep.
An example I already have data for is the popular exploiter: 18ranger/1monk/1rogue. He'll now have to choose between favored damage and sneak attack training. Another one would also be 18ranger/1fighter/1rogue, and so on.

tl;dr: Don't arbitrarily push core enhancements into prestiges and don't be afraid to make an additional panel. Otherwise, I'm sharpening my pitchforks.

Totally agree. As I see it every time they make a choice for me it takes my choice away. By tying general class enhancments to particular PrEs they have already taken away options from me. And what are they doing really by tying those general class enhancements to PrEs? They are beefing up the PrEs by stealing from what was previously available to anyone whom took enough levels in the class. I'm all for them strengthening the weak PrEs... but they need to do so in unique, made for that PrE ways not by swiping what was previously available to everyone.

[red_cardinal]

I think this is how we got national health care. :)

See, something good comes from a simple propaganda technique. :D

[Solmage]

First of all, thanks for being willing to put this much effort into improving the game. However, I have several concerns:

- How do you plan to balance out the DPS output of say a Ravager/Frenzied Berserker vs a lowly ranger? [Currently melee rangers aren't "bad", but most don't plays them because people don't want "not bad" characters, they want good to excellent] - or stated differently I see SERIOUS issues with allowing double dipping of 2 PrEs of the same class, and even Kensai/FB should be rather sick.


They do have the same favored class, and the Warforged were originally built to act as "tanks" in the war.

- Giving a warforged a defender PRE makes no sense except flavour-wise, but I thought we were WAY past designing things just because it was the flavour, and instead were designing things that work? Unless you can somehow make that warforged have almost the same healing amp as a fleshy in the current game he will be fulfilling a role nobody wants him to fill, namely that of a low healing amp tank. What they need is DPS to compensate for the fact they're harder to heal. Perhaps Kensai would make more sense, specially with the Lord of Blades as an example.


We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.

- You guys need to be very careful about relaxing feat requirements: Remember when feats were worthless and all that mattered were enhancements? It is important that feats be supported by enhancements to make them worth taking. Like, for example, who the heck would take mobility, if they didn't need it for tempest?

- Or just go and make feats more useful by themselves, such as making mobility grant 10% damage absorption while moving, enhanceable by enhancements or something, or improving with spring attack. (Just an idea, other ideas along those lines I'm sure would work just fine)

- I am EXTREMELY concerned with what you folks are going to do with the caster damage lines, caster PREs and the like.

- I am also concerned by the fact not even elves get a caster PrE as a favored class tells me the team is focused on melee, and the divine and arcane classes are not a priority.

- For example, it should not, I hope, take a lot of effort to realize just HOW useless most of the archmage's specializations and spells are, but at the same time, being able to dual spec into necromancy as PM3/AM1 or AM2, while also getting nearly free lvl 2 dance and web (the only non-nerfed AM abilities that rock) would be completely utterly broken... unless a drastic nerf hammer is looming.. groan.


Regardless of anything, I do appreciate the improved communication during the DESIGN phase, which many of us desperately wanted. So, in all honesty, THANK YOU. This alone is what gives me some hope.

[ComicRelief]

...This way you do not lock out enhancements from splash levels, and the 1% of players that purposefully don't want a PrE at all (why, I can't fathom) are not forced to.

There are many reasons for not wanting to take a PrE. Some of us like to have "generalist" toons, as opposed to "specialists" (I have not taken a PrE for my fighter, and I have no intention to respec to take one, either). And of course there is always the ubiquitous "flavor" reason...

{Does anybody know what ubiquitous actually tastes like?}
;)

[oradafu]

There are certainly a lot of exciting combos, but I'm worried that almost all seem to be pure class (or 18/2), plus a racial PrE. What happens to multiclassing? What happens to most builds working with most races, with an interesting decision to decide which one to use? I'm feeling like this threatens to severely reduce both, in favor of obvious and inflexible Race+Class combos.

You hit one of my concerns also. I've asked if capstones will be pure class and/or prestige class. If capstones will be only prestige class based, that ends several pure builds. Why make a pure Rogue, if I get all the benefits from Rogue at level 19 and splash some other class just for the free feats or abilities granted at level one? Currently, there's a benefit for staying pure Rogue for the Deadly Shadows capstone. If the capstone is tied to the third tier of the prestige only, then these changes kill the pure rogue.

So I see this new system not only hurting deeply splashed characters, but also equally hurting pure classes. This new system will be making 18/2 or 19/1 the standard from what I can see and eliminating pure classes completely.

[Riggs]

If 41 points is the capstone then I'm guessing we may be seeing something like rogues have now - different capstones for each and every PrE. Just a guess but it sounds likely.

Hopefully.

I was going off the 30 points for tier 3 thing too. Depending on how they stack up - you could in theory have two tier 3 lines and a tier 1 line.

Depending on the power of each tier, whether it gets front loaded, or back loaded more as may happen - either way you might have to give up a lot of goodies to get dual tier 3, but if they are as powerful as seem might be - there will be some stupid OP combos happening.

Esp is you can bypass alignment restrictions for barb lines through racial lines. A lawful barb/monk, a chaotic kensai/monk/barb etc...well just one more thing to break I guess.

[Darkrok]

This is a problem:

Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
I don't mind part of what you're concerned with here. I don't mind if we're forced to choose 3 pre's. I'm concerned if we're forced to choose 3 Pre's just to get basic class skills and that locks us out of pre's from our other classes. As you mentioned, there have been multiple suggestions in the thread here to address that.

I agree with you. Again, the devil is in the details and if they don't do a general line then they're going to definitely need crossover options or stacking duplicates that are well spaced out (to avoid completely OP'd stacking) in order to avoid forcing people into their 3 'main class' pre's simply to get what they could already get now without having to focus on their one class. A perfect example has already been mentioned. I splashed a single barbarian level for 2 purposes - 10% movement speed increase and sprint boost I. Under the new system I would have to use one of my 3 PrE trees just to buy that one enhancement. I can accept that - it's a huge part of the entire point of the character - but that only works if the toon isn't forced into taking 2 or even 3 of the rogue lines just to get the basic rogue enhancements.

[MaxwellEdison]

There are many reasons for not wanting to take a PrE. Some of us like to have "generalist" toons, as opposed to "specialists" (I have not taken a PrE for my fighter, and I have no intention to respec to take one, either). And of course there is always the ubiquitous "flavor" reason...

{Does anybody know what ubiquitous actually tastes like?}
;)

I can see not actively spending points or feats on a prestige line for someone who really wants to be a generalist. I cannot, however, see someone being upset at the thought of having PrE bonuses added to the character for no cost when their generalist AP spending sets them over one of the thresholds.

It's like punching out the waiter for bringing a free dessert.

[dkyle]

Simple clarification question: is it currently the intent that characters would have access to:

1. A Racial tree, plus 3 Class PrEs, one of which might be swapped out for the Racial PrE purchased by AP on the Racial tree.

2. A Racial tree, plus 3 Class PrEs, plus one Racial PrE purchased on the Racial tree. So, effectively, 4 PrEs possible.

3. A combined Racial/Racial PrE tree, plus 3 Class PrEs.

I PM'd MadFloyd this question, since I thought it would get buried, and he just PM'd back confirmation that #1 is indeed correct. We will have access to 3 PrE trees only, including the Racial PrE you can buy from the Racial tree.

I was kind of hoping the answer would be 2 or 3, but I'm glad to know exactly what it is we should be discussing.

[Chai]

You mean after their raised boss hp first?

Bossed started with huge HP. They were lowered when we got DOTs. More character power, less mob HP.


You mean after epic monsters got stupid high hp in the first place? and hold/stun was changed to not be all crits but 50% more damage instead? Raising howls from all the pick users?

Epic trash mobs started with 4500-5500 HP. That total was lowered same update we got sorc PRE and ability to insta kill them. More character power - less mob HP.

Those two RECENT examples toss a nice monkey wrench in the statement where you said they ALWAYS raise mob power with toon power 100%. I provided two examples in the past 7 months where they did the exact opposite.


yes, maybe 6 months after making a bunch of massively OP combos - the nurf bat will come out and everyone will have to redo their builds yet again. History.

Memory is a spotty thing it seems for some. Keep at it though you will get there.

And as already said - arguing about sorcs vs melee belongs in the class balance thread.

We are talking about a nice opportunity here to use this enhancement mechanic change to rebalance the game. The devs want this kind of feedback, and we can tell they are listening, as all of the racial PRE mentioned so far are melee or ranged. Telling users to go to another thread is unacceptable, as this mechanic WILL relate to the balance of the game, and this mechanic has the ability to make that balance better or worse. I can imagine that bringing this up in the balance thread will illicit someone to tell me to talk about it in the "new enhancement tree" thread. Since both topics are related, discussion of both in both threads is warrented.

[orakio]

Not exactly. Any multiclass gives up their highest level enhancements, for access to lower level enhancements of other classes. If we assume that enhancements are evenly distributed among all class levels, with all PrEs having equal numbers of enhancements, then even with unlimited trees, every possible class split would have the same number of enhancements available at level 20. The tradeoff would be that the multiclass gets to pick among a wider variety of low level PrE lines, while the Pure gets to pick up the highest level, likely more powerful, enhancements of his own PrE lines. Sounds pretty fair to me.

Of course, it depends on how enhancements are actually distributed, and how front/backloaded they are, but at least in principle, unlimited trees are not unfair to pure builds. The problem with 3 trees is it starkly limits the actual variety available to multiclass builds. Once those trees are locked in, they have much fewer options of enhancements to pick up. The deeper the multiclasses, the fewer the options.


Let me explain the idea of more trees being possibly advantageous to multiclass and leaving pure classes behind. There are some classes that have sufficient compatibility between two or more of their PrE's that their character wont suffer by the limitations of the pure class only + racial PrE. Classes like monk, paladin, fvs and cleric however all have PrE's that function almost entirely different or aren't possible to use together at all (shintao+ninja spy).

No matter what a pure class does it can not go into more than racial + 3 trees, multiclasses however have significantly more options. Because of those options they can mix and match PrE's that work seamlessly together to get larger multiplicative bonuses. The more trees you have the more ability for a multiclass to pick and choose from those trees to min max a positive build. An example is the pure 20 Paladin vs a 12/6/2 multiclass split.

That pure 20 paladin could at best pick up a second PrE from its race that works with its primary PrE. This Paladin would have 6 PrE ranks and each rank of a PrE is like free enhancement points in the fact that they provide solid to significant bonuses to a character.

A Halfelf 12Barb/6Fighter/2rogue could however pick up Tempest 3/FB 2/Kensai 2/Ravager 1 and evasion out of the 2 rogue levels if they were allowed to use 4 trees.

Which character do you think would most likely have more options to optimize its dps? This isn't to say multiclasses will be better either, only pointing out that with more trees you can cause imbalances in the favor of the multiclass as well.

Personally i don't have a preference for 3 trees or 4+, all I am saying is that 3 trees makes sense in a way because we have 3 PrE's a class and no more than 3 classes to a multiclass character. You should be able to build within that system although you may see the common splits change based on enhancements and tree placement and whatnot. It is a bit early to assume though that multiclass characters won't be able to keep up or exceed pure classes though.

The only thing that would not make the 3 tree system work is if higher tiers of the tree are in fact significantly better for their intended role than lower parts of the tree, but that isn't the case in other games using the tree system and most likely won't be here either.

[Hendrik]

I refuse to use the term "broken" till we see something more fleshed out rather than just thoughts and fears.

Why? I was here for the first redo of the enhancements. I remember how that was. People crying and being afraid and we honestly got something that was better. I also remember that thread where we were asked if by doing so would it break any builds out there?
To my knowledge only my *concept* character would have been trashed by it. (it would have been a dwarf with an innate resistance to all elements of about 20 to 10 points for each main element. Back when level cap was 10, self sufficiency was a lot more difficult, we didn't have healing amp, no AH, and plat was not plentiful.)
I don't remember any other build that would have actually had been broken. Lots of screaming and crying, but not much substance from the nay sayers at all.

I remember - good times....

Set the Way Back Machine Sherman;

Remember how broken builds were gonna be with the fix to Evasion in Heavy Armor?

;)

[Riggs]

A couple people seem stuck on the idea that occasionally power levels get lowered down in the game. Proof that power creep doesnt exist or is not a worry.

They seem to forget that before every said change was a huge monster buff, and months and months or players ranting on the forums before something finally changed.

The see saw of overbalancing changes has been going on for 5 years. Many players are pretty cynical about new changes as a result. Because history might be re-written attempting to ignore it, but it still happened.

I really doubt many want to see a huge stacking OP change, followed by months of rebuilding characters - "omg I'm so uber now" - followed by all the new monsters, and half the old ones - getting huge buffs to challenge the new benchmarks of power - followed again the nurf bat making half the builds weak again, followed by another round of tweaking that gets things somewhere in a more balanced state. All of which will be accompanied by pages and pages of people complaining about other people being too powerful, then more people complaining after the nurfs, and complaints about - shocker! - monsters getting massively buffed yet again.

How about we just aim for the balanced state now rather than a year and a half from now?

[HarveyMilk]

There are certainly a lot of exciting combos, but I'm worried that almost all seem to be pure class (or 18/2), plus a racial PrE. What happens to multiclassing? What happens to most builds working with most races, with an interesting decision to decide which one to use? I'm feeling like this threatens to severely reduce both, in favor of obvious and inflexible Race+Class combos.

It'll make multiclassing more about feats than enhancement, surely. 2 rogue, 2 monk, 1-2 fighter, 1-6 ranger will become, with fewer exceptions, the only multiclasses that we see, I predict. I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. And we might see whole new caster multiclasses if humans get a large pre list.

I for one am happy to see the end of endless 12/6/2

[dkyle]

A Halfelf 12Barb/6Fighter/2rogue could however pick up Tempest 3/FB 2/Kensai 2/Ravager 1 and evasion out of the 2 rogue levels if they were allowed to use 4 trees.

Even if we assume that Half-elves get Tempest, there are three things wrong with this build:

1. The PrEs along are 80 APs. That leaves nothing for the overhead for buying the Racial PrE.

2. You don't have enough Fighter levels for Kensai 2. Every indication is that PrE tiers will retain their class level prereqs.

3. You get 3 PrEs, period. Racial included.

In Practice, this would more likely be Tempest 3/[Ravager or FB] 2/Kensai 1. I would most likely take Tempest 3/FB 3/Ravager 1 on a pure Barb over that any time.


I do understand how multiclassing can be useful in this system. But the new system presents far more roadblocks to discourage it, while providing absolutely no more incentive than currently. The power difference of the TierII+TierI over either as a TierIII would have to be much larger than any current combination.

[Darkrok]

I PM'd MadFloyd this question, since I thought it would get buried, and he just PM'd back confirmation that #1 is indeed correct. We will have access to 3 PrE trees only, including the Racial PrE you can buy from the Racial tree.

I was kind of hoping the answer would be 2 or 3, but I'm glad to know exactly what it is we should be discussing.

Wow, thank you SO much. I'd rep this post if I hadn't already hit one of your other ones but I was completely wrong in how I read things.

[kingfisher]

have not posted on these forums in a long time but i gotta chime in on this change.

1.) its cool that the devs are talking to the masses a little bit, although i dont understand y they dont respond to the concerned posts intead of just the fanboi posts. usually this means they have made their minds up and are moving on regardless of the people against it and have decided to waste no more time on them. sure hope not.

B.) i like the idea of a revamp of some of the enhancements in theory, but i dont understand why they would tamper with one of the better toon custimization features in the game, all in the name of 'more choices'. seems like the opposite to me, although it is still early. why not put this time into making the game better first? fixing the bugs and improving the game performance seem like more pressing needs at this time.

III.) back to the 'more choice' dev rallying cry....this reminds me of when they nerfed twf in the name of 'fixing lag'. its typical turbine to run out crying about how cool its gonna be and how many choices and all that then slip in at the last minute, 'oh yeah, you can only have 3 trees per toon, sorry'. this smacks of a nerf to 3-class toons. im sorry to be negative but it does. and it will if they limit it to 3 trees per toon. and i cannot think of a sinlge reason why they would have to either. if you have to build from the ground up on each tree, what difference will it make how many you have? i have seen this mentioned earlier in this thread with specific 3-class combos that WILL NOT be able to have their current enhancements (or similar replacements) under a 3-tree setting. this defies the whole point of the 3-class build. to take a little bit of this and a little bit of that and make something that is somewhat unique is one of the best features of DDO, period. and whats more it fits, cause who in life does one job thier whole life? any 12/6/2 build will now have to miss out on the enhancements that made the build great in the first place. 1 tree for a racial, thats a given, another tree for the teirII pre, another for the tierI pre, another for the base class tree, and yet another for the lvl 2 dip. more if they take base class enhancements that are not in the tierI pre tree. thats 5-6, at minimum that a 3-class build needs in order to maintain enough similarity to what they currently are today. IMO the number of trees you have should be dependent on the build. a pure has 4. a 2-class has 7. a 3-class 10. it SHOULD NOT MATTER how many trees you have cause we all have the same ap to use right? its not like you can even use all the trees, but they are there (and most likely unused and grayed out), because those are the OPTIONS you have based on your CLASS/CLASSES and if you want to spend 1 AP in a tree it should not limit the rest.

Fourth.) this is not a complaint without suggestion post, (i hate those) so here is a small suggestion pardon me if its been said before. why not give each class 3 trees to start with; racial, base class, and pre, and then when they take a level of another class, they get that classes base tree. when they take enough levels in that class to qualify for a pre, they get the pre tree too. when they dip a third class, same rule applies, class base tree first, then pre tree if applicable. theat would give a 3-class 6 trees, but they would only be reaching the top tier of ONE pre, the racial one, if any. this is what we have now, as designed, intended, and implemented by turbine for years. please tell me how having access to only 3 trees instead of 6 is 'MORE CHOICES'? i dont understand why this would even be an issue, why limit it at all? as stated above, you start at the bottom of each tree and there are only 80 AP's to spread around. if a someone wants to splash barb for the sprint boost or fighter for the martial weapon usage who cares? its another tree with like 2 ap's used at the very bottom. if they want to splash wiz for the free meta magic feat and a few enhancements, big deal. if you are a fighter that dips rogue for evaision and a couple ap's worth of sneak attack damage why on earth would it HAVE to be one of your main trees? so what if you were born on the wrong side of the tracks and stole a copper or two before enlisting and starting your career as a fighter? that's gonna keep you from learning how to be a fighter at the highest level? really?

Cinco.) Suggestion 2, you could seperate the enhancement lines even further into tabs, like say you have a racial tree tab (1 tree) and then a class tree tab (up to 3 trees if you take 3 classes), and then a pre tree tab (up to 3 trees). the pre's would have to be selected whereas the class and racial trees would always be there. a 3-class would have harder choices, akin to the sacrifices made in the name of customization. pures would have less choices and flexibility but could attain higher tiers in their class pre's. this would give distinct advantages to both pure and multiclass builds and would allow for maximum custimization. same stacking rules as stated above to guard against overpowering. basically what we have now. only prettier to look at, easier to use, with a new UI. lol. (ie. MORE CHOICES!)

Lastly.) for reference - i have a dozen or more 3-class toons so obviously if this change ends up limiting them it will kill DDO for me. just sayin.