Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Thrudh]

All the Dev respones in this thread gives me tears of joy.

Me too - I've never been more excited...

I love builds... This is going to open up so many options... I'll be doodling down build ideas on paper for weeks (at work of course; at home, I'm playing!)

[Meat-Head]

Okay, now I'm getting a little worried.

I've only played since shortly after F2P, but the power creep in this game is getting out of hand. If new content continues to be tuned to people who are willing to do whatever it takes for spell DCs in the 40s, I get worried about whether this new enhancement system will move the far edge of the power curve even further away from people who play less than 8 hours a day. I don't want to have to grind my face off on every character and reduce the flexibility and solo ability of my characters to even get into new content. I've already seen talk about the possibilities of making a pale master with the extra DCs, SP, and SLA from archmage.

My biggest concern is that this flexibility, while attractive, is going to result in a few combinations that are so much more powerful than anything else that we will end up just a handful of cookie cutter builds dominating the game. Oh, your FBIII doesn't have kensai I and Crit Rage Replacement II? Gimp. Your FvS doesn't have Radiant Servant and Angel of Vengeance? Reroll.


Relax your doooOOOmmm!! a little brosky. First, it's in the planning stage. Second, plenty of things can prevent "OP" combinations. EG: You can't powersurge in SD stance. Problem solved. Also, FVS don't have turn dead. Rad Serv is powered by turns. Problem solved.

In the end, though, people will think builds A, B, and C are most optimal just like they do now. And, unless they are elitest jackwagons, they will party with you just fine just like they do now.

I don't see any MAJOR problems with what little they have presented. So far, the extra choices seem fun. Give it a chance.

[Havok.cry]

Disagree on the first point. PDKs are the commanders and officers. They are kind of like the Bards of the army, rallying the troops to greater feats of battle than they thought possible, even having an Inspire Courage ability.
Not very appropriate for a WF at all. WF were created to follow orders, not give them.

Completely agree on the second point, and highlighted for emphasis.

My first point was pure speculation, added to not being sure what pdk was, thanks for clarifying :)

[Recared]

Me too - I've never been more excited...

I love builds... This is going to open up so many options... I'll be doodling down build ideas on paper for weeks (at work of course; at home, I'm playing!)

:DDDD Same here.

[Thrudh]

We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.

Oh please do! Right now, only fighters can really fit dragonmarks into a build. I'd love to play around with dragonmarks a bit on my FvS or my barbarian.

Another suggestion: I would try to balance out each tier of the PrEs... Whenever possible, don't have one tier give a much huger benefit than the others...

For instance, you did Stalwart Defender great... The stance increases linearly from 6 to 12 to 18.

On other hand, Kensai gets a huge benefit at level 12 with Power Surge... Level 6 Kensai and Level 18 Kensai, not so much... I'd make Power Surge show up at level 6 and increase it at 12 and 18.

Frenzied Berzerker could also use a quick look-over... That thing is HUGELY back-loaded... Tier III at level 18 adds a TON of DPS. Tier II is barely worth anything. Maybe you should give Death Frenzy at 12, and increase it's power at 18 (or just have one frenzy at 6 that gets stronger at 12 and 18)

Many many thanks for looking at the enhancement systems and the PrEs. And many many thanks for feedback here in these threads!

[Thrudh]

Even at 1200 hp and 100+ac.

Whoa. Can you post that build?

[maddmatt70]

I could not help but notice that all the racial prestige enhancements are melee or ranged oriented and not spellcasting. Is there any possibility for spellcaster racial prestige enhancements in the future?

[Cyr]

Another suggestion: I would try to balance out each tier of the PrEs... Whenever possible, don't have one tier give a much huger benefit than the others...

For instance, you did Stalwart Defender great... The stance increases linearly from 6 to 12 to 18.

On other hand, Kensai gets a huge benefit at level 12 with Power Surge... Level 6 Kensai and Level 18 Kensai, not so much... I'd make Power Surge show up at level 6 and increase it at 12 and 18.

Frenzied Berzerker could also use a quick look-over... That thing is HUGELY back-loaded... Tier III at level 18 adds a TON of DPS. Tier II is barely worth anything. Maybe you should give Death Frenzy at 12, and increase it's power at 18 (or just have one frenzy at 6 that gets stronger at 12 and 18)


Great suggestions Thrudh and analysis.

I was kind of thinking of costing the PrE tree's more or less based upon their gimp factor, but outright balancing the tiers is a stellar idea...

How about the following for Kensai...

Tree stuff -> Kensai 1 -> Power Surge Branch with multiple tiers with larger ones requiring higher kensai tiers...mostly because all these PrE abilities can all be branches so you could get more of the stuff you want for your particular build and less of the other stuff...Kensai could have extra ki on hit branch, power surge branch, extra damage on hit branch, extra to hit branch, extra action boost branch, and extra combat dc branch for example...

[Drona]

Loving all this wonderful discussions, great ideas and great communication from devs :)

Keep 'em coming!!

[Khimberlhyte]

Relax your doooOOOmmm!! a little brosky. First, it's in the planning stage. Second, plenty of things can prevent "OP" combinations. EG: You can't powersurge in SD stance. Problem solved. Also, FVS don't have turn dead. Rad Serv is powered by turns. Problem solved.

In the end, though, people will think builds A, B, and C are most optimal just like they do now. And, unless they are elitest jackwagons, they will party with you just fine just like they do now.

I don't see any MAJOR problems with what little they have presented. So far, the extra choices seem fun. Give it a chance.
Trust me, I'm far more excited about this than concerned. But after the shiny wears off, then what? This will break the game in new and exciting ways, so voicing concerns is appropriate.

I am liking the idea of raw, early Lammannia builds, with extended testing for something like this. I'm hoping it is up for long enough and with enough feedback cycles (and incentives to get people over there) to ship it in a much (much much much much much) better state than U12.

[FuzzyDuck81]

hmm.. so if i understand this right, so long as you still met certain (somewhat) relaxed feat requirements, and presumably more generic skill "ie skill X" rather than "class skill X" you can mix & match essentially 2 classes' full PrE lines, potentially without even being in 1 of those classes if its the racial one.

brain immediately went to halfling dark monk ninja spy/assassin, then jumped to dwarf stalwart defender radiant servant (or maybe warpriest) cleric.

[smatt]

Hmm, I like what I'm seeing so far.. At least in theory...

[Thrudh]

The only question I'd like to voice, and one I've noticed mentioned a couple of times, is whether this will be detrimental to those of us who prefer pure 20 levels of a single class and PrE? Will they appear weak beside the wave of "uber" builds which will inevitably come from this?

That's a good point... They should probably take a look at the capstones again, to make sure that going pure is a solid choice.

[Thrudh]

heck with that! That screws my Ram's might! :)

But I agree with Shade, this potential god-combo of caster with a stalwart PRE shouldn't be feasible. it's gotta be something that you really would gimp your toon doing.

But spells isn't the way to go... Shade has never played a ranger or a paladin, so that's why you have to be careful with his ideas. His experience is deep, but not broad.

[zeonardo]

As stated before, seeing so many Devs active on this thread is something I can't describe.
Thank you Dev Team for all the attention. We, as a community, needed this love as much as the classes/races.

I'm really excited about all this talking and I'm sure it will lead to a better game for all of us. All I ask for is to keep in mind that some PrEs are already powerful enough on their own (Pale Master for example) and don't make it possible for a Drow Sorcerer Crowd-Control-ArchMage-Pale-Master Hi-DC-Hi-SP self healing type to rule the game.

I'm not worried if a hi defense-offense melee could kill thousand mobs in 5 hours, but you know what Pale Masters can do in a twist of an undead finger already.

I'm also worried about what kind of divine-arcane would come out of this.
Not worried about melee types because they need love. Paladins need moar.

[Cyr]

That's a good point... They should probably take a look at the capstones again, to make sure that going pure is a solid choice.

I never thought that pure builds should get some special preference. Multiclassing is dangerous not the least reason being changes like the ones being discussed in this thread killing your build. Pure builds should get no special treatment, they are are the safe path.

[Thrudh]

Customization of builds remains super important. Amongst other previously stated goals, we hope for this overall change to increase the number of viable build options, not reduce them.

Current thinking is to keep action points. Trees and action points can live together in harmony.

Oh definitely keep APs... They DO work as intra-level reward.

[Thrudh]

I would greatly prefer that warforged gain something uber for melee while not also uber for arcane casters if a primary goal of this pass really is to help out with balance as opposed to flavor being the driving factor.

I would prefer Kensai for warforged. It does almost nothing for arcanes, but is great for melee toons.

I agree here... 20% extra hp (and +6 CON) is too good for wf casters... Nip that problem in the bud by giving WF Kensai instead.

[smatt]

That's a good point... They should probably take a look at the capstones again, to make sure that going pure is a solid choice.


It appears tht a complete rework of the capstones is part of the mix here.

This could be really great.......OR....

It's a huge undertaking.... One that is needed I suppose, but it's also a very risky one, frought with the possibly of very long drawn out bug fixes and rebalancing issues. Imanagine how many build variations there will be, some of which no doubt wll be VERY powerful, and then of course all the way down the spectrum.

[Cyr]

Oh definitely keep APs... They DO work as intra-level reward.

Agreed. They have to have some way of advancing on the trees and AP seems like as good a way as any. The more the better so granularity is smaller.

[Meat-Head]

I am liking the idea of raw, early Lammannia builds, with extended testing for something like this. I'm hoping it is up for long enough and with enough feedback cycles (and incentives to get people over there) to ship it in a much (much much much much much) better state than U12.


Now here's something we can ALL agree on. :)

[Thrudh]

We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.

That is an excellent idea.. I especially like how taking a feat opens up something, but is not required..

Even more choices.

You guys are really on the right track here!

[geoffhanna]

Now that I have regained some of my normal senses (the first blush of Bronco euphoria has passed), I continue to believe even more strongly than ever that Assassin is a poor choice for the halfling racial prestige enhancement. I have several ideas that I believe make way more sense, but first, a bunch of reasons why assassin does not:


D&D: There is no racial inclination toward Assassin in any D&D source book going back to Chainmail
Fantasy literature: There is no tradition of halflings as assassins in any book ever (AFAIK anyway but I read a lot)
Racial synergy: Assassin in DDO is an INT class, but halflings are a DEX race
Roleplaying: Assassins must be evil. Halflings are jolly! well, all except one (http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd4/stone_scorpio/2cHSZVb9y2LaFsib974.gif)
Balance: Assassin will not balance with other racial PrE's as all of the other proposed racial PrEs will be useful at end game but Assassin will not
AP synergy: Halfling APs focus on stealth and sneak attacks which are already less useful at end game

Yes I am making that last point twice (with nuances!) because it is really key.

Now lets look at better choices.


In Tolkien, hobbits are burglars. That is closer to Acrobat than it is to Assassin
In Forgotten Realms and other D&D fiction, halflings are generally rogues. That is closer to Mechanic or Acrobat than it is to Assassin
In the 3.5 Players Handbook, the template rogue is a Halfling. Still closer to Acrobat or Mechanic
In Eberron, halflings are nomads and barbarians. That is not at all close to Assassin. Suitable nomad/barbarian PrCs include ravager, rune-scarred berserker, Prarie Runner, or any nomadic barbarian PrC
In D&D 3.0 and in D&D 3.5 there is already a halfling-preferred Prestige Class: Halfling Outrider!


http://aquerra.wikispaces.com/file/view/halflingoutrider.jpg/31402847/halflingoutrider.jpg

Admittedly, adding an all-new PrE is possibly more work than just re-using one that already exists. But this is about big plans, right? Also, the Halfling Outrider in particular is a tougher fit since we don't have mounts, although one suspects that the Artificer companion style of solution could be re-used here too.

If we may only select from existing PrEs, Acrobat is a better fit than Assassin, especially if Acrobat were modified to allow quarterstaff as a finesse weapon that does damage based on DEX modifier.

Any of these would be far better and more suitable than Assassin, which just feels like a tack-on added only because all the other races are getting a PrE, and hey, halflings are backstabbers right?

[Thrudh]

Okay, now I'm getting a little worried.

I've only played since shortly after F2P, but the power creep in this game is getting out of hand. If new content continues to be tuned to people who are willing to do whatever it takes for spell DCs in the 40s, I get worried about whether this new enhancement system will move the far edge of the power curve even further away from people who play less than 8 hours a day. I don't want to have to grind my face off on every character and reduce the flexibility and solo ability of my characters to even get into new content. I've already seen talk about the possibilities of making a pale master with the extra DCs, SP, and SLA from archmage.

My biggest concern is that this flexibility, while attractive, is going to result in a few combinations that are so much more powerful than anything else that we will end up just a handful of cookie cutter builds dominating the game. Oh, your FBIII doesn't have kensai I and Crit Rage Replacement II? Gimp. Your FvS doesn't have Radiant Servant and Angel of Vengeance? Reroll.

Character build has nothing to do with grinding and 8 hour a day players.

[grodon9999]

The solution to the SD WF\dwarf caster issuse is easily sovled and not by stances locking out or raising the cost of spell casting.

Add feat requirements.

T1: shield prof

T2: med armor prof

T3: tower shield prof (possibly bab 15?)

Basicly a caster would have to spend 3 feats or splash 1 fighter to get to T3 defender.

I think that this plus the AP cost will make going this route have enough drawbacks to have it be viable yet not a must have choice for casters.


no need to re-invent the wheel, it already has feat requirements.

[Thrudh]

Tree stuff -> Kensai 1 -> Power Surge Branch with multiple tiers with larger ones requiring higher kensai tiers...mostly because all these PrE abilities can all be branches so you could get more of the stuff you want for your particular build and less of the other stuff...Kensai could have extra ki on hit branch, power surge branch, extra damage on hit branch, extra to hit branch, extra action boost branch, and extra combat dc branch for example...

OOh.. that's awesome... Those branches are a great idea..

[Cyr]

OOh.. that's awesome... Those branches are a great idea..

I herby evoke the Thrudh + Cyr precedence which states that whenever we both think something is a great idea the devs must make it so.

[Bladedge]

They do have the same favored class, and the Warforged were originally built to act as "tanks" in the war.

"To look upon one is to see an instument of destruction, a hartless killing machine a siege engine in the shape of man." - Races of Ebberon

Humm that does not sound like something that wants to defend the castle, more like take over the castle, burn it to the ground after everyone inside is dead.

When I read warforged I picture a construct built for killing the tank defenders. More of a kill or be killed but diffidently not defend and hold the line.

Really was looking forward to a more of a Barbarian Berserker/DPS enhancements for the warforged, and not tankish or defender enhancements.

[slimkj]

But I agree with Shade, this potential god-combo of caster with a stalwart PRE shouldn't be feasible. it's gotta be something that you really would gimp your toon doing.
Though I also think it probably won't make it in-game, I really don't think it's the big deal some are worried about. It's likely going to be too costly to take all the lines you want and SD too - hell, I don't have enough AP on my casters as is. Say you stretch and can afford the AP for SD I - that's 10% HP isn't it? 10% of ~450 HP is only ~45 more HP. Hardly game breaking. DR at SD I is less powerful than item-based DR available too iirc.

You'd probably have to give up a whole elemental lines worth of AP, at least, to get it, I'm guessing, which is a fair trade off (overall current balance vs melee notwithstanding) if you want to sink some of your allotment into defense rather than offense.

[voodoogroves]

Any of these would be far better and more suitable than Assassin, which just feels like a tack-on added only because all the other races are getting a PrE, and hey, halflings are backstabbers right?

As much as it pains me to suggest hafllings shouldn't be assassins, I agree.

Drow (scorpion wraith) makes more sense as assassin. Halflings maybe snag tempest then. Or Pale Master.

[Thrudh]

I herby evoke the Thrudh + Cyr precedence which states that whenever we both think something is a great idea the devs must make it so.

LOL... That's very true... We rarely agree on anything, but when we do, you KNOW it's a solid idea!

[Thrudh]

Though I also think it probably won't make it in-game, I really don't think it's the big deal some are worried about. It's likely going to be too costly to take all the lines you want and SD too - hell, I don't have enough AP on my casters as is. Say you stretch and can afford the AP for SD I - that's 10% HP isn't it? 10% of ~450 HP is only ~45 more HP. Hardly game breaking. DR at SD I is less powerful than item-based DR available too iirc.

You'd probably have to give up a whole elemental lines worth of AP, at least, to get it, I'm guessing, which is a fair trade off (overall current balance vs melee notwithstanding) if you want to sink some of your allotment into defense rather than offense.

Good point.

[Havok.cry]

When you say halflings don't fit assassin because they are a dex race, I'm assuming your not thinking about the TWF that takes dex to get. When you claim they don't fit for flavor reasons I should point out the flavor of their enhancments already has them inclined to stab you in the back while your not looking. When I see their stats it makes me think rogue, because rogues more easily overcome penalties to strength than any other class. When you say acrobat, a thf flavored prestige, I look at the str penalty and wonder what the heck your thinking.

[Meat-Head]

Good point.


Almost as good as when I broke it down in post #495. :P

[Cyr]

Okay more suggestions for tree lines of PrE's like the Kensai one I talked about earlier...

Assassin branches into lines for poisons (which are reworked to be good), extra sneak damage, assassinate line (assassinate ability for tier 1, current tier 3 vorpal for tier 2, and vorpal as the actual weapon proc for tier 3), extra assassinate DC (off of the assassinate tier one branch), save versus poison , skills (hide/move/bluff).

Shintao branches into lines for smiting tainted creatures, skills (diplo/heal/intim), protection from tainted (mostly improved stacking with other stuff new abilties), damage reduction bypass (byshek, silver, cold iron...), dismissial line, and a lockdown/stun line. That one should make shintao alot cheaper for most people as they would skip out on alot of it.

Ninja spy branches into lines for short sword stuff, special ki abilities (shadow fade for tier 1, walk on water for tier 2, and something new for tier 3), skills (hide/move/balance), sneaking (movement speed/passive ki), and sneak attack damage.

Tempest branches into lines for shield bonus when twf, attack penalty reduction when twf, extra offhand/double strike chance when twf.

AA branches into lines for conjuring arrows (more stuff then now like flaming/shock/holy/whatever arrows), imbued arrows, and true striking (clicky reduced cooldown and improved power with more tiers ie new stuff).

Angel of Vengeance branches into for aura(different branches for saves, ac, SR, and attacks), crown (different branches for proc rate, dr reduction, light damage guard, light damage vulnerbiliy, and alignment damage vulnerbility), summoned archon(improves archon along various branches such as RoF and light damage), and a line for spell damage (untyped, fire, and alignment based).

You get the basic idea...some of the weaker lines would have some more options to really pump them up while some of the better pre's would have so many lines that to have everything would be rather costly (like Angel of Vengeance which is really outstanding right now)

[bhgiant]

Okay more suggestions for tree lines of PrE's like the Kensai one I talked about earlier...

Assassin branches into lines for poisons (which are reworked to be good), extra sneak damage, assassinate line (assassinate ability for tier 1, current tier 3 vorpal for tier 2, and vorpal as the actual weapon proc for tier 3), extra assassinate DC (off of the assassinate tier one branch), save versus poison , skills (hide/move/bluff).

Shintao branches into lines for smiting tainted creatures, skills (diplo/heal/intim), protection from tainted (mostly improved stacking with other stuff new abilties), damage reduction bypass (byshek, silver, cold iron...), dismissial line, and a lockdown/stun line. That one should make shintao alot cheaper for most people as they would skip out on alot of it.

Ninja spy branches into lines for short sword stuff, special ki abilities (shadow fade for tier 1, walk on water for tier 2, and something new for tier 3), skills (hide/move/balance), sneaking (movement speed/passive ki), and sneak attack damage.

Tempest branches into lines for shield bonus when twf, attack penalty reduction when twf, extra offhand/double strike chance when twf.

AA branches into lines for conjuring arrows (more stuff then now like flaming/shock/holy/whatever arrows), imbued arrows, and true striking (clicky reduced cooldown and improved power with more tiers ie new stuff).

Angel of Vengeance branches into for aura(different branches for saves, ac, SR, and attacks), crown (different branches for proc rate, dr reduction, light damage guard, light damage vulnerbiliy, and alignment damage vulnerbility), summoned archon(improves archon along various branches such as RoF and light damage), and a line for spell damage (untyped, fire, and alignment based).

You get the basic idea...some of the weaker lines would have some more options to really pump them up while some of the better pre's would have so many lines that to have everything would be rather costly (like Angel of Vengeance which is really outstanding right now)
This I like. I really really like.

[geoffhanna]

When you say halflings don't fit assassin because they are a dex race, I'm assuming your not thinking about the TWF that takes dex to get. When you claim they don't fit for flavor reasons I should point out the flavor of their enhancments already has them inclined to stab you in the back while your not looking. When I see their stats it makes me think rogue, because rogues more easily overcome penalties to strength than any other class. When you say acrobat, a thf flavored prestige, I look at the str penalty and wonder what the heck your thinking.

I am not thinking about the TWF requirement. Halflings can get a 20 starting dex, it is their very best thing, but only 17 is needed for TWF. Compare that to an elven INT 20 wizard or a horc STR 20 melee.

The point about the backstabbing is that it is already not helpful in endgame except in limited use versus trash. More backstabbing is not an improvement.

Acrobat is not perfect, you are right. But it is better than Assassin.

There is more but I have to go to work. Later.

[Razcar]

Any of these would be far better and more suitable than Assassin, which just feels like a tack-on added only because all the other races are getting a PrE, and hey, halflings are backstabbers right?Oh come on. Finally something to make Halflings viable not only for role players, butterfly chasers and fluff. Finally. And you dis it?

[Cyr]

Acrobat is not perfect, you are right. But it is better than Assassin.

There is more but I have to go to work. Later.

Assassin >> Acrobat.

[Missing_Minds]

They do have the same favored class, and the Warforged were originally built to act as "tanks" in the war.

What happened to Juggernaut? An "unstoppable juggernaut" to me is very much a tank.


We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.
Interesting. I am intrigued.

[smatt]

I herby evoke the Thrudh + Cyr precedence which states that whenever we both think something is a great idea the devs must make it so.


Or they should ge ta VERY big trash can :)

If you guys keep crossing streams...... I's going to get scary around here :D

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Customization of builds remains super important. Amongst other previously stated goals, we hope for this overall change to increase the number of viable build options, not reduce them.

Current thinking is to keep action points. Trees and action points can live together in harmony.

This was one of my major points earlier in this thread. This improvement must mean "more build options". Its not a "win" however unless its also easier to understand WHY a choice is good. If you can pull that off, I'd consider this not only an improvement but an evolution that should keep people playing for years more to come.

[Cyr]

Or they should ge ta VERY big trash can :)

If you guys keep crossing streams...... I's going to get scary around here :D

LOL.

Have no fear I am sure we will be back to disagreeing vehemently soon enough :)

[Khimberlhyte]

Character build has nothing to do with grinding and 8 hour a day players.
It's the cumulative effect of both gear and overfocused builds. Right now, the things you can grind such as gear, tomes, favor rewards like Yugo pots, and past lives give a difference of 4-8 (or more) on some DCs for a caster. There is already a huge difference between a wizard like my first life archmage, and a completionist like Ayspam (three of each caster life, iirc). There should be a difference in power between those characters due to the difference in effort, but how much wider should it go?

These changes could allow a highly focused and specialized character to add even more to their DCs, albeit hopefully only at a cost. If lots of people start trading versatility for truly insane DCs on one-trick pony builds, and the devs start tuning content to those players, it won't add enjoyment to the game for everyone.

[Missing_Minds]

If you guys keep crossing streams...... I's going to get scary around here :D

Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light. Total protonic reversal

[CaptGrim]

no need to re-invent the wheel, it already has feat requirements.

1. SD has 1 feat requirement

2. Isn't reinventing the wheel exactly what they are doing?

My idea was to not prevent casters from taking the SD line, but make it have a more costly price to them. Namly 3 feats or a fighter splash that would cost the capstone, some sp, and spell pen aand a spell slot or 2. Not to mention the extra ap it will cost the take the line.

Either way i feel that SD for WF is a poor fit and think that kensai, ravager, or for sure juggernaught would be the way i would go.

[waterboytkd]

But I agree with Shade, this potential god-combo of caster with a stalwart PRE shouldn't be feasible. it's gotta be something that you really would gimp your toon doing.

I agree here... 20% extra hp (and +6 CON) is too good for wf casters... Nip that problem in the bud by giving WF Kensai instead.

I have a feeling the current way you gain PrEs will be nothing like the new system. As Eladrin said, you're going to need to have spent X AP in the PrE's tree to gain it. Currently, if Warforged just got SD, yeah, it would be bad because for 8 AP, they would have all that. But in the future? SD3 is probably going to cost you 30+ AP (using wild supposition, I'm going to say 34 AP to get to tier 3 of a PrE, as that would be half of the total AP you would have at level 18.0).

So for gimping, I bet you won't have to gimp your toon, per se, but you will have to spend AP on melee stuff (I bet the SD line is chock full of melee stuff), but even if you could just get away with hp boosting and damage mitigation enhancements, you would still be spending a lot of AP on non-casting abilities. To get Air Savant 3 and SD3, it would cost you most of your AP (as Eladrin said), so your Sorc would only have 1 element...not the best set up. A lot less viable end-game spells for you, but you gain survivability for it.

My feeling is that a caster shouldn't have to be a gimp to get SD3, but it should have to sacrifice something non-trivial to get it. But a caster who does make that choice should be a viable build.


Yeah, that would be great if the requirement was not dodge, mobility, and spring attack.

You have enough feat room for Dodge, mobility, Spring Attack, and a Tempest III prereq?

I was gonna say something, pointing to an Eladrin post, but I'll let a flying head take it away:


We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.


That is an excellent idea.. I especially like how taking a feat opens up something, but is not required..

Even more choices.

You guys are really on the right track here!

Gotta agree here. I like the idea that even the PrEs could become customizable! Want FB3, but don't want to take the cleave stuff? No problem. Referencing the quote below, want to be an unarmed Ninja? Don't waste AP on shortswords then, no problem!


Okay more suggestions for tree lines of PrE's like the Kensai one I talked about earlier...

Assassin branches into lines for poisons (which are reworked to be good), extra sneak damage, assassinate line (assassinate ability for tier 1, current tier 3 vorpal for tier 2, and vorpal as the actual weapon proc for tier 3), extra assassinate DC (off of the assassinate tier one branch), save versus poison , skills (hide/move/bluff).

Shintao branches into lines for smiting tainted creatures, skills (diplo/heal/intim), protection from tainted (mostly improved stacking with other stuff new abilties), damage reduction bypass (byshek, silver, cold iron...), dismissial line, and a lockdown/stun line. That one should make shintao alot cheaper for most people as they would skip out on alot of it.

Ninja spy branches into lines for short sword stuff, special ki abilities (shadow fade for tier 1, walk on water for tier 2, and something new for tier 3), skills (hide/move/balance), sneaking (movement speed/passive ki), and sneak attack damage.

Tempest branches into lines for shield bonus when twf, attack penalty reduction when twf, extra offhand/double strike chance when twf.

AA branches into lines for conjuring arrows (more stuff then now like flaming/shock/holy/whatever arrows), imbued arrows, and true striking (clicky reduced cooldown and improved power with more tiers ie new stuff).

Angel of Vengeance branches into for aura(different branches for saves, ac, SR, and attacks), crown (different branches for proc rate, dr reduction, light damage guard, light damage vulnerbiliy, and alignment damage vulnerbility), summoned archon(improves archon along various branches such as RoF and light damage), and a line for spell damage (untyped, fire, and alignment based).

You get the basic idea...some of the weaker lines would have some more options to really pump them up while some of the better pre's would have so many lines that to have everything would be rather costly (like Angel of Vengeance which is really outstanding right now)

Great ideas, here. Hope this is what the devs were thinking. If it wasn't, they should be.

[Captain_Wizbang]

IMO focusing on racial traits is great, and a lot of thought should go into that.

As for relaxing certain requirements, I would have to cautiously say no.

If racial traits are implemented properly you can shift the current focus of people (drooling over the chance to make some crazy uber builds) which IMO would once again have characters out perform certain parameters of the game dynamics.

If more detail is paid to how each path performs within racial boundaries, (for example) casters become more school focused and penalized for trying perform outside of their known art. that would result in a dramatic shift in how each race & class gain or lose advantages.

I'd like to see some attention paid to how each race can or can not attain certain class attributes. Dwarves by nature are cave dwellers and IMO have no business swinging from trees, hiding in bushes and trying to be a sniper.

WF by nature are the ultimate fighting machine, and should not have the same casting abilities as say an elf!

It's GREAT news the devs are looking at improving the system. My concern is still the same as it has been for several years. The characters are over-powering the content.

Side note, posters are already forming opinions as to how go about this, and what super-uber builds they can employ.

To turn the dev feedback into another forum pvp, is not helping further proper discussion.

(seriously, a dwarven AA & Beserker is wrong on so many levels)

[Chai]

Or they should ge ta VERY big trash can :)

If you guys keep crossing streams...... I's going to get scary around here :D

Wait til I start agreeing with them both. Thats when the real fun begins!!!

Who is this "zuul" you keep talking about. Tell that thing to get off my lawn. :p

[Thrudh]

Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light. Total protonic reversal

Right, that's bad. Okay. All right, important safety tip. Thanks, Missing_Minds.

[psteen1]

Customization of builds remains super important. Amongst other previously stated goals, we hope for this overall change to increase the number of viable build options, not reduce them.

Current thinking is to keep action points. Trees and action points can live together in harmony.

This is great stuff. And I think that all this feedback is showing the dev's something very important: DDO players love customization and feats and enhancements to make unique class combinations.

Some of us love it more than new content... so if you nail this, guys, you will have done the best update in years. New content doesn't get me to play this game more, but rolling up a new character with new abilities that plays in a new way... that keeps me coming back and back.

[BladeTricks]

Okay, if you're gonna reset everybody's enhancements when it goes live, please also include free feat changes and blood of dragons for relevant classes.

[Cyr]

Wait til I start agreeing with them both. Thats when the real fun begins!!!

Who is this "zuul" you keep talking about. Tell that thing to get off my lawn. :p

lol, that is right that would be very dangerous...so what is your take on my suggestion for the branch based idea for PrE's so we can get the full doomsday scenario going here.

[dkyle]

Okay, if you're gonna reset everybody's enhancements when it goes live, please also include free feat changes and blood of dragons for relevant classes.

But really, I think it's high time to consider reducing the cost of respecs. Would it really be so unreasonable for LRs to cost what feat exchanges cost now?

But who am I kidding... as long as LRs are a direct revenue source, it's not going to change.

[slimkj]

Almost as good as when I broke it down in post #495. :P
Sorry fellah, haven't read the whole thread. Did the first few and the last few, don't have all night to read nearly 30 pages. :) All credit to you.

[Meat-Head]

Sorry fellah, haven't read the whole thread. Did the first few and the last few, don't have all night to read nearly 30 pages. :) All credit to you.


Well, not all of us can pike while workin on a tax-payer-funded income... O.O

Teaching + proctoring tests all day = lots of foruming.... :)

[sweez]

Okay, if you're gonna reset everybody's enhancements when it goes live, please also include free feat changes and blood of dragons for relevant classes.

At the very, very minimum. Considering the scope of changes they're mentioning, I'd be very disappointed if they didn't hand out +0 lesser hearts.

[Meat-Head]

At the very, very minimum. Considering the scope of changes they're mentioning, I'd be very disappointed if they didn't hand out +0 lesser hearts.


Part of me agrees with this (selfishly I wanna maximize my toons too), but I disagree.


Selling hearts is why PrE work is GOOD for revenue. We don't want PrEs to be P2P. So, this is how we do it.

We actually WANT the company to make money to fund the work of all the new Devs that they supposedly recently hired so that they make new/better/less-bugged content etc.

Think about it this way: More hearts sold = more likely to get GS decon in a reasonable amount of time. :)


Now a SALE on hearts. That's just a good idea.

[Khimberlhyte]

At the very, very minimum. Considering the scope of changes they're mentioning, I'd be very disappointed if they didn't hand out +0 lesser hearts.
A +0 might not cut it. Depending on the changes, there could be some 18/2 or 12/6/2 builds that lose the abilities that made them worthwhile.

[Dark-Star]

The combat mechanics and character customization of DDO are what separate it from other games.

The direction you are going with this is music to my ears as a student of character builds and player in general.

You sirs, are very much in touch with your community.

[sweez]

Part of me agrees with this (selfishly I wanna maximize my toons too), but I disagree.


Selling hearts is why PrE work is GOOD for revenue. We don't want PrEs to be P2P. So, this is how we do it.

We actually WANT the company to make money to fund the work of all the new Devs that they supposedly recently hired so that they make new/better/less-bugged content etc.

Think about it this way: More hearts sold = more likely to get GS decon in a reasonable amount of time. :)


Now a SALE on hearts. That's just a good idea.

I disagree. PrE's should be free, and means to redo your toon from 1-20 if they change the enhancement system should also be free. Now, it'll still take people some time to figure out which builds are 'optimal', which fit them best, whatever - that's where they'll get money from store Hearts.

But I also think that hearts should drop a lot more in actual chests and that it's a bit sad if they don't make enough money out of actual content (packs, races and classes) and have to make it up on stuff like hearts, so that's just me. :p

[scoobmx]

They do have the same favored class, and the Warforged were originally built to act as "tanks" in the war.

What good are tanks with healing penalties? I urge you guys to think deeply about this question.

[somenewnoob]

What good are tanks with healing penalties? I urge you guys to think deeply about this question.

Expendable tanks! ;)

[dkyle]

Alternatively to free LR hearts, or easily acquired in-game LR hearts, perhaps a "Major Reincarnation". The heart would cost 3 Epic tokens, and work like a True Reincarnation, except the current life would not count towards past life benefits, the re-leveling would take only normal first life XP, and tomes and Raid completions would not be lost.

Should make extensive respecs more accessible, but still not trivial, while maintaining a market for the instant gratification of LRs.

[Chai]

I'd like to see some attention paid to how each race can or can not attain certain class attributes. Dwarves by nature are cave dwellers and IMO have no business swinging from trees, hiding in bushes and trying to be a sniper.


Too many elf ranger stereotypes associate rangers with "the woods". Heres something I wrote up a while ago for a different board discussing old school D&D stereotypes and how to overcome them as a DM.

An elven ranger or maybe a human ranger would fit the "prancing around in the woods" stereotype. A dwarven ranger is a completely different animal.

The ranger is a master of his own environment, so while those "sissy elves" are prancing around in the woods and hugging trees (dwarven point of view), the dwarven ranger is scouting the underdark for goblin / ettin / orc raiding parties, looking for new ore veins for the clan to mine, and finding new sources of underdark plants for use in brewing the 70 proof "holy water" the clerics use in their rituals.

He regards his heavy pick and light pick with the same esteem a defender would regard his ax and shield. Take care of your equipment and your equipment will take care of you. Each weapon has a name, and can be used for delicate extraction of mithral samples, scaling walls, or wildly splitting orc skulls.

His armor is cured displacer beast hide grometted with many dulled mithril studs, and while sturdy enough to deflect an ogre club at the right angle, is still light enough for the ranger to move nimbly enough to dodge traps, and quietly enough for the ranger to perform his scouting duties.

The wilds of the underdark are even less tame than those above. No "sissy" (ranger stereotype) wanders these natural corridors alone. While the merchants, beaurocrats, and paladins of the clan are safe in their houses and ministry buildings arguing about how to best leverage their trade agreements despite the current blockade situation, the ranger is already in the underdark, where even the most stout battle hardened dwarves dont travel alone, fleshing out another trade route behind enemy lines.

The warriors, tacticians, and mercinaries are bantering amongst eachother about how to respond or retaliate to a raid on their stores by a rival clan, meanwhile the rangers have already tracked the raiders down, and are halfway back to their clan dwelling with the stolen posessions and a bag full of heads of those who decided it was a good idea to rob them, in tow. If one attempts to flee from Dwarven rangers into the underdark, they just die tired.

[bhgiant]

I agree with sending BTC +0 Hearts of wood to those characters who FEAT requirements have changed for their prestige line. I do not think that it should be a blanket send-all. The mutliclassed builds will most likely still be very viable. They will not lose out on anything they didn't already have. If, however, they decide they want to try something new, that is their choice but I don't think Turbine should pay for it. Just my opinion :).

Edit: Which brings to mind, is there going to be a feat redo with this as well? I mean, besides Dragonmarks (which are beyond needing a major overhaul). What about feats like... acrobat, or Weapon Focus. Acrobat would be awaesome if it were to give something to the prestige line. Weapon Focus should be a +2 imo.

[Meat-Head]

I disagree. PrE's should be free, and means to redo your toon from 1-20 if they change the enhancement system should also be free. Now, it'll still take people some time to figure out which builds are 'optimal', which fit them best, whatever - that's where they'll get money from store Hearts.

But I also think that hearts should drop a lot more in actual chests and that it's a bit sad if they don't make enough money out of actual content (packs, races and classes) and have to make it up on stuff like hearts, so that's just me. :p


So, what about 12,6,2 builds? Should they get 2 +5 hearts for free? If not, why? Why do pure or nearly pure classed ppl get more love if they give out free hearts?

You WILL get a chance to redo you character... in terms of enchancements.

I don't think it's sad. This is why it's ok to do some updates on PrEs WITHOUT any real pack work. It's because it will generate revenue.

Remember that microtransactions are a major/main source of income. If we want our game to survive, it has to make $$ and stuff.

Just my op.

[Chai]

lol, that is right that would be very dangerous...so what is your take on my suggestion for the branch based idea for PrE's so we can get the full doomsday scenario going here.

I like it because it has the ability to not restrict PRE simply to class but to specific pre-reqs if they intend to go that route. The current interface is already technically tree based even though it doesnt display as such. It also has the ability to open up a huge amount of options that may not even be PRE based. Who said PRE had to be the best choice for a build in the first place.

[Havok.cry]

I am not thinking about the TWF requirement. Halflings can get a 20 starting dex, it is their very best thing, but only 17 is needed for TWF. Compare that to an elven INT 20 wizard or a horc STR 20 melee.

The point about the backstabbing is that it is already not helpful in endgame except in limited use versus trash. More backstabbing is not an improvement.

Acrobat is not perfect, you are right. But it is better than Assassin.

There is more but I have to go to work. Later.

Sorry, but I have to lol at the belief that 20 starting dex is halfling's best thing. Thats just funny. Unless your building for AC or ranged combat, that much dex is a waste on anything. The +2 starting dex does however make qualifying for feats much easier without putting as many points into it as you might have had to. Also if you think assassins are not very good at end game you've never run with even a halfway decent assassin. As cyr said, assassins are greater than acrobats.

[somenewnoob]

I'm going to make the prediction that this will be totally FUBAR. And generate at least 20x the nerd rage of shroud blades and VIP's not getting artificer COMBINED!

I hope I'm wrong, I really do. But I worry anytime they start effing with things that aren't broken.

Fool me once.......

[red_cardinal]

We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.

That would open up full lines of prestiges for a character. Dwarven ranger AA SD,
Drow Cleric Radiant Assassin, etc.

[Chai]

That would open up full lines of prestiges for a character. Dwarven ranger AA SD,
Drow Cleric Radiant Assassin, etc.

Will there even be enough points to go class pre tier 3 -AND- race pre tier 3? This is where the hilarity is going to ensue, as those APs are going to get tight once the number of options expands.

[Thrudh]

Part of me agrees with this (selfishly I wanna maximize my toons too), but I disagree.


Selling hearts is why PrE work is GOOD for revenue. We don't want PrEs to be P2P. So, this is how we do it.

We actually WANT the company to make money to fund the work of all the new Devs that they supposedly recently hired so that they make new/better/less-bugged content etc.

Think about it this way: More hearts sold = more likely to get GS decon in a reasonable amount of time. :)


Now a SALE on hearts. That's just a good idea.

Good point.. Yeah, we're just going to have to suck it up and buy some hearts to pay for the next Update

[Cyr]

Good point.. Yeah, we're just going to have to suck it up and buy some hearts to pay for the next Update

See there we go...back to normal again...

No that is not a good thing.

These forced purchased respecs are a reason why people leave the game. Having their character screwed with by development changes and then not being able to fully fix them loses players.

It might be good for short term profits, but it comes at the expense of cannabalizing long term profits by shrinking the player base and generating anger in the community that results in less ongoing sales and a lower threshold towards quitting over the next thing that upsets them.

[somenewnoob]

See there we go...back to normal again...

No that is not a good thing.

These forced purchased respecs are a reason why people leave the game. Having their character screwed with by development changes and then not being able to fully fix them loses players.

It might be good for short term profits, but it comes at the expense of cannabalizing long term profits by shrinking the player base and generating anger in the community that results in less ongoing sales and a lower threshold towards quitting over the next thing that upsets them.

Did anybody else see the irony in his post containing "suck" and "up" in it?

:p

(not your post, the one you quoted....and Thrudh, you know I only tease you because I lub joo!)

[red_cardinal]

The combat mechanics and character customization of DDO are what separate it from other games.

The direction you are going with this is music to my ears as a student of character builds and player in general.

You sirs, are very much in touch with your community.

True, but the sad part was that they didn't take a month, month and half 3 years ago to finish prestiges back then. Most of then were partly done.
Well, better late than never.

[MadFloyd]

So here is the mockup that was promised.

To make it easier to digest, I’ve copy-pasted a section direct from Eladrin’s spec below. Again, all of this is subject to change.

In practice, the trees will probably look different, with more sideways arrows, etc but it should give you a pretty good idea of what we have in mind.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/MadFloyd/EnhancementMockup.jpg

A single classed character will have their racial tree and the three trees that are associated with their class displayed. These trees correspond to the three Prestige Enhancement lines tied to the class.

A multiclassed character can change a class enhancement tree with 0 points spent in it to a different class tree that is available to them using the drop down menus. For example, if this character multiclassed into Wizard, it could change the Rogue: Thief-Acrobat tree into Wizard: Archmage, Wizard: Pale Master, or Wizard: Wild Mage. Trees that have points spent in them cannot be changed to other trees. The racial tree cannot be swapped out for a different one.

Each race will have an enhancement that adds another specific enhancement tree to the character’s available list of trees. Elves and Half-Elves, for instance, gain access to the Arcane Archer tree if they take the racial enhancement to unlock it. Dwarves gain access to Stalwart Defender. The player can choose to unlock the tree and then not use it, if they so desire. Trees unlocked in this way use the character’s total character level instead of class level for prerequisites and effects.

Initially, players will have the bottom row of enhancements available to them. As players spend enhancement points within the current tree, additional tiers of enhancements will become available to them. Enhancements will no longer have a “total action points spent” prerequisite, this is replaced by a “total action points spent in this tree” prerequisite, and is defined by the tier the enhancement is on. (5 * [Tier of Enhancement – 1])

Most enhancements will be able to be selected multiple times – the player will do this by selecting the same enhancement repeatedly, incrementing the number of times it has been taken, giving greater effects, up to a limit. (For example, Sneak Attack Damage can be taken 5 times.) High tiers of most enhancements will have class level requirements.

Enhancements that are unavailable to the player are greyed out. Enhancements can still have feat or class level prerequisites – if a player does not meet these prerequisites, a red border or lock display is added to the icon. This should not be subtle, it should be absolutely clear to the player that there’s something wrong here, and they need to do something if they want this enhancement. Players can figure out what requirements they’re missing by viewing the tooltip.

Some enhancements have other enhancements as a prerequisites chain. These are shown in the mockup with arrows in between them. Knife Attack leads to Knife Damage, which then leads to Knife Specialization. An enhancement that has another as a prerequisite cannot have a rank higher than its prerequisite, so to get Knife Damage III, the player must have Knife Attack III. To get Knife Spec IV, the player must have both Knife Attack IV and Knife Damage IV. Most enhancements cost 1 Action Point. Rare ones will cost more. Costs do not increase each time you take an enhancement.

Each enhancement tree will have a line of enhancements that are automatically granted to the character based on the number of points spent in that tree. For example, when a character puts any 10 points in the Assassin tree, they will gain the Assassin I enhancement if they meet all other prerequisites. (Rogue level 6 in this case.) If they do not meet the prerequisites, then they will NOT gain the enhancement until they do. (Any time a player modifies their feats or gains a level, we’ll have to check access to the auto-granted enhancements.) These are shown in the mockup as the horizontal row of enhancements beneath the tree name.

Players should be able to spend action points anywhere in the world by opening up the Enhancements UI, without needing to seek out a trainer. Enhancements can be reset on a tree-by-tree basis using the “Reset Enhancements” button near the bottom of each pane, which is only available in public areas. This has a platinum cost associated with it based on the number of points currently spent in the tree.

[somenewnoob]

Can't say I like the idea of having action points spent requirements replaced with "spent in tree". Sounds like it will force more of a cookie cutter approach to building your enhancements.

Not a fan of the idea at all. Especially because what will no doubt happening is that you have to take enhancements that you consider worthless to get to certain other ones, which already happens to some degree with the prestige requirements (screw you improved heal!! lol)

Not a fan at all if it leads to more cookie cutter builds.

[barryman5000]

"Great explantion"

Absolutely amazing description. I was worried about the tree design but that pic and your explanation put alot of my fears to rest.

Hate to ask, but how many pre's are you looking at being done from this reset?

[dragons1ayer74]

The layout looks functional and interesting.

The one thing about this I don’t like and hope I am wrong is by the looks of it multi-classed character could be getting a big nerf. Unless I am understating this wrong a multi-class character can no longer have 2+ prestige classes.

[Cyr]

Okay so how I am interperting that chart is...

The bottom row is actually 'pre' like bonuses that are granted based upon how much you have spent in that 'tab'.

The next row up is the first actual row.

Things with an arrow mean you need to have purchased where the arrow is pointing from (not sure if this means all the stages of it like 5 sneak attack damage or whatever or just one tier of it).

The ones without arrows do not require specific things purchased, but do require a total number of points spent in that 'tab' depending upon which row they are on.

Is that an accurate description of what I am seeing or did I mess something up Mad?

[oradafu]

Currently, Assassins are better than Acrobats. I don't even see that changing when Acrobat III is added, and I'm a person who prefers Acrobat over Assassin. Acrobats would be a good Halfling racial prestige since it would create the goto race for AC builds (if AC were to be fixed). However, it is a very poor choice not because Assassin is superior to Acrobat, but because Acrobat is dependent on Evasion whereas Assassin doesn't depend on anything (unarmed assassins for example).

As I stated earlier, I would have liked to seen more unique/original Racial prestige classes, such as the Luckstealer for Halflings. If the Devs were to pick existing prestige classes, Assassin seems appropriate since Halflings gets a bonus in flanking and sneak attack, which just screams assassin.

....

Now to more generic thoughts about the tinkering of Enhancements and Prestige classes... With the recent comments, I'm wondering if the Devs are moving to a more open Prestige class system, similar to 3.5. Are they going to open up some of the prestige classes so you can qualify for them even if you don't have the current class they are attached to in the game? For example, the Purple Dragon Knight prestige class is currently an undeveloped Fighter class, but in the 3.5 rules Paladins could also choose the Prestige. I'm thinking that this is probably a bit much (especially since Madfloyd just posted a mockup while I was typing this), although it does seem to fit into the idea that they have Humans (and Half-Elves).

[Havok.cry]

Initially, players will have the bottom row of enhancements available to them. As players spend enhancement points within the current tree, additional tiers of enhancements will become available to them. Enhancements will no longer have a “total action points spent” prerequisite, this is replaced by a “total action points spent in this tree” prerequisite, and is defined by the tier the enhancement is on. (5 * [Tier of Enhancement – 1])



Thank you for the mock up. It is much appreciated. This part here is what gets me though. This is the "locking someone into a tree" that many of us are worried about. At least it seems this way. I hope in practice It will not. Is there any chance for general non-path class enhancments? (example: would you have to go to a specific tree for wizards spell damage enhancments?) This seems very much like WoW's talent trees.

[barryman5000]

Can't say I like the idea of having action points spent requirements replaced with "spent in tree". Sounds like it will force more of a cookie cutter approach to building your enhancements.

Not a fan of the idea at all. Especially because what will no doubt happening is that you have to take enhancements that you consider worthless to get to certain other ones, which already happens to some degree with the prestige requirements (screw you improved heal!! lol)

Not a fan at all if it leads to more cookie cutter builds.

Its saying that if you want to be the best rogue acrobat then you spend your points in the acrobat tree. You can still grab sneak attack accuracy (or something like it) from another tree. This is supposed to be a limiting factor so that nobody gets all the good enhancements and all 3 prestiges for a class without some sort of sacrifice.

It also makes it so that previously horrible prerequisite enhancements may not have to be taken and instead you can choose what you want as long as it is withing the correct prestige's tree. That right there is win-win and only increases choices.

[bradleyforrest]

Can't say I like the idea of having action points spent requirements replaced with "spent in tree". Sounds like it will force more of a cookie cutter approach to building your enhancements.

Not a fan of the idea at all. Especially because what will no doubt happening is that you have to take enhancements that you consider worthless to get to certain other ones, which already happens to some degree with the prestige requirements (screw you improved heal!! lol)

Not a fan at all if it leads to more cookie cutter builds.
Yeah, I'm concerned by this as well. I foresee a lot of wasted AP in here. Many of the "Improved Skill" enhancements are garbage.

[MadFloyd]

Absolutely amazing description. I was worried about the tree design but that pic and your explanation put alot of my fears to rest.

Hate to ask, but how many pre's are you looking at being done from this reset?

Ideally, all of them, but we'll see how it goes.

[grodon9999]

Ideally, all of them, but we'll see how it goes.

ETA as to when we'll see SOMETHING on Lamania?

[MadFloyd]

Okay so how I am interperting that chart is...

The bottom row is actually 'pre' like bonuses that are granted based upon how much you have spent in that 'tab'.

The next row up is the first actual row.

Things with an arrow mean you need to have purchased where the arrow is pointing from (not sure if this means all the stages of it like 5 sneak attack damage or whatever or just one tier of it).

The ones without arrows do not require specific things purchased, but do require a total number of points spent in that 'tab' depending upon which row they are on.

Is that an accurate description of what I am seeing or did I mess something up Mad?

You got it right.

[voodoogroves]

Ideally, all of them, but we'll see how it goes.

Drool

[Cyr]

You got it right.

Okay then I have to ask the specific questions. What is the 41 supposed to be? Is that our current tier 3 PrE?

I assume the different steps there are something fairly similar to the junk I wrote out about breaking up the PrEs? I am having trouble figuring out what else they could be, but am also then confused about what the 'free' PrE bonus from having X purchased would grant. Edit: I guess some of them could be existing mostly junk enhancements, but really that would be alot of junk...

Then onto the racial tab/s. I am confused if there are two tabs here, one general tab and one racial PrE tab or if the general racial tab is the PrE tab? If it is not what type of bonuses are being considered along that general racial PrE tab?

Edit: Oh yeah and although I am pretty certain of this one, but others might not this does indeed mean that we could have points spent in 4 PrE trees right?

[Avidus]

Ideally, all of them, but we'll see how it goes.

This sounds a little ambitious...

Perhaps a ballpark time frame would make it sound more reasonable? Were you (by you I mean all of the devs and such not just Madfloyd) thinking update 13 or 14? 16? 18? sometime this year or is this still incredibly early and you really just don't know how long it's going to take?

Overall I am liking what I am reading in this thread. Of course change is scary but, the current enhancement / feat UI is terrible and the game will be better off with a revamp.

Is there any reason Warforged are getting SD? Way back the plan was for them to be given Warforged Juggernaught was is not?

[barryman5000]

Drool

*grabs a towel*

I only just cleaned my drool up and you look like you could use this.

[Thrudh]

Absolutely amazing description. I was worried about the tree design but that pic and your explanation put alot of my fears to rest.

Hate to ask, but how many pre's are you looking at being done from this reset?

Yep, I think it looks great as well!

[Havok.cry]

Its saying that if you want to be the best rogue acrobat then you spend your points in the acrobat tree. You can still grab sneak attack accuracy (or something like it) from another tree. This is supposed to be a limiting factor so that nobody gets all the good enhancements and all 3 prestiges for a class without some sort of sacrifice.

It also makes it so that previously horrible prerequisite enhancements may not have to be taken and instead you can choose what you want as long as it is withing the correct prestige's tree. That right there is win-win and only increases choices.

Yes, and that is pretty much what we said we didn't want. Before there was a ton of general enhancements that you could take within your class, without being on a specific path. This looks like now our paths are chosen for us and we are locked out of getting. Those sneak attack AP you wanted on your acrobat, sorry they are 3 teirs up in the assassin tree, best of luck. Got a rogue 6 arti 6 fight 8 repeater build. Sorry but you have the kensai tree, the mechanic tree and the battle engineer tree, and your locked out of 2/3 of the beginning enhancements of all 3 of your classes.

[Coldin]

So here is the mockup that was promised.

To make it easier to digest, I’ve copy-pasted a section direct from Eladrin’s spec below. Again, all of this is subject to change.

In practice, the trees will probably look different, with more sideways arrows, etc but it should give you a pretty good idea of what we have in mind.

A single classed character will have their racial tree and the three trees that are associated with their class displayed. These trees correspond to the three Prestige Enhancement lines tied to the class.

A multiclassed character can change a class enhancement tree with 0 points spent in it to a different class tree that is available to them using the drop down menus. For example, if this character multiclassed into Wizard, it could change the Rogue: Thief-Acrobat tree into Wizard: Archmage, Wizard: Pale Master, or Wizard: Wild Mage. Trees that have points spent in them cannot be changed to other trees. The racial tree cannot be swapped out for a different one.

Each race will have an enhancement that adds another specific enhancement tree to the character’s available list of trees. Elves and Half-Elves, for instance, gain access to the Arcane Archer tree if they take the racial enhancement to unlock it. Dwarves gain access to Stalwart Defender. The player can choose to unlock the tree and then not use it, if they so desire. Trees unlocked in this way use the character’s total character level instead of class level for prerequisites and effects.

Initially, players will have the bottom row of enhancements available to them. As players spend enhancement points within the current tree, additional tiers of enhancements will become available to them. Enhancements will no longer have a “total action points spent” prerequisite, this is replaced by a “total action points spent in this tree” prerequisite, and is defined by the tier the enhancement is on. (5 * [Tier of Enhancement – 1])

Most enhancements will be able to be selected multiple times – the player will do this by selecting the same enhancement repeatedly, incrementing the number of times it has been taken, giving greater effects, up to a limit. (For example, Sneak Attack Damage can be taken 5 times.) High tiers of most enhancements will have class level requirements.

Enhancements that are unavailable to the player are greyed out. Enhancements can still have feat or class level prerequisites – if a player does not meet these prerequisites, a red border or lock display is added to the icon. This should not be subtle, it should be absolutely clear to the player that there’s something wrong here, and they need to do something if they want this enhancement. Players can figure out what requirements they’re missing by viewing the tooltip.

Some enhancements have other enhancements as a prerequisites chain. These are shown in the mockup with arrows in between them. Knife Attack leads to Knife Damage, which then leads to Knife Specialization. An enhancement that has another as a prerequisite cannot have a rank higher than its prerequisite, so to get Knife Damage III, the player must have Knife Attack III. To get Knife Spec IV, the player must have both Knife Attack IV and Knife Damage IV. Most enhancements cost 1 Action Point. Rare ones will cost more. Costs do not increase each time you take an enhancement.

Each enhancement tree will have a line of enhancements that are automatically granted to the character based on the number of points spent in that tree. For example, when a character puts any 10 points in the Assassin tree, they will gain the Assassin I enhancement if they meet all other prerequisites. (Rogue level 6 in this case.) If they do not meet the prerequisites, then they will NOT gain the enhancement until they do. (Any time a player modifies their feats or gains a level, we’ll have to check access to the auto-granted enhancements.) These are shown in the mockup as the horizontal row of enhancements beneath the tree name.

Players should be able to spend action points anywhere in the world by opening up the Enhancements UI, without needing to seek out a trainer. Enhancements can be reset on a tree-by-tree basis using the “Reset Enhancements” button near the bottom of each pane, which is only available in public areas. This has a platinum cost associated with it based on the number of points currently spent in the tree.


So, say as a Drow Fighter 12 / Rogue 8, I could have my Racial Tree, and then a Kensai, Assassin, and Tempest tree?

I'm assuming that each Class tree will be related to it's PREs. Like the Rogue class trees will be Assassin, Mechanic, Thief-Acrobat. Access to the racial prestige tree just lets you swap one of those out if you want.


Still sounds good to me. All these changes are probably really far down the line though, aren't they?

[Thrudh]

Ideally, all of them, but we'll see how it goes.

Wow... What timeline we talking about?

The only bad thing about this kind of announcement is that I now have to put a couple of my TRs on hold until I figure out what the heck my new builds are going to be...

[Meat-Head]

Am I seeing that you can have points spent in 4 PrEs total including racial? Or will there be no limit to number of trees that open up (assuming you qualify with class etc..) and there are only 4 on the example cuz that dude is a pure rogue halfling?


This is an important question because it's related to people being worried about being "locked into trees".


I for one like what I see so far.

Keep the info coming. SOOOO nice to get the communication.

[Thrudh]

Yes, and that is pretty much what we said we didn't want. Before there was a ton of general enhancements that you could take within your class, without being on a specific path. This looks like now our paths are chosen for us and we are locked out of getting. Those sneak attack AP you wanted on your acrobat, sorry they are 3 teirs up in the assassin tree, best of luck. Got a rogue 6 arti 6 fight 8 repeater build. Sorry but you have the kensai tree, the mechanic tree and the battle engineer tree, and your locked out of 2/3 of the beginning enhancements of all 3 of your classes.

That would be bad, but maybe all 3 of the class PrEs have the same basic enhancements at the bottom. I would assume most of the enhancements that are "general" now would remain available no matter what PrE you chose.

[Coldin]

Yes, and that is pretty much what we said we didn't want. Before there was a ton of general enhancements that you could take within your class, without being on a specific path. This looks like now our paths are chosen for us and we are locked out of getting. Those sneak attack AP you wanted on your acrobat, sorry they are 3 teirs up in the assassin tree, best of luck. Got a rogue 6 arti 6 fight 8 repeater build. Sorry but you have the kensai tree, the mechanic tree and the battle engineer tree, and your locked out of 2/3 of the beginning enhancements of all 3 of your classes.

Of course, going kensai/mechanic/battle engineer also means you're using up a lot of action points for those three specialties.

I kind of feel like this new system is to help players not make incredibly awful builds, because it will give them direction to go. Also might buff up all existing enhancements so they're more meaningful.

[Havok.cry]

Okay then I have to ask the specific questions. What is the 41 supposed to be? Is that our current tier 3 PrE?



80 AP points at 20.... I bet 41 is that pre's capstone.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

This is all sounding outstanding.

One more suggestion. There are a small number of players who will NOT have any idea how to get their toons back to where they were before this change.

Besides excellent new enhancement descriptions that will help the large majority, is there any thought into helping those who dont have any idea so they dont become disfranchised and leave the game?

Madfloyd, may I suggest adding a few more paths so those types will be happy.

Some people just arent good character builders.

[Eladrin]

Okay then I have to ask the specific questions. What is the 41 supposed to be? Is that our current tier 3 PrE?
That's the tree related capstone. Your current Tier 3 is at 30 points (level 18 required).

Tempest, for instance, has the following "granted" abilities currently:


5 Points Spent: +2 shield bonus when dual wielding
10 Points Spent: Tempest I, +10% off hand attacks, Scimitars are treated as light weapons and can be finessed.
15 Points Spent: +3 shield bonus when dual wielding
20 Points Spent: Tempest II, +10% off hand attacks, Deflect Arrows while dual wielding
15 Points Spent: +4 shield bonus when dual wielding
30 Points Spent: Tempest III, +5% doublestrike when dual wielding
41 Points Spent: Dervish - Full ability score bonus for damage on off hand
(Insert subject to change disclaimer here.)

[grodon9999]

(Insert subject to change disclaimer here.)

30 AP for what now costs 6? Am I reading that wrong?

I think I am . . . is it you get all that stuff once you spend 30 APs on other stuff?

[Aelonwy]

First off I must say this is the most back and forth communication I have seen between the devs and players since I began playing this game almost 2 1/2 yrs ago. Not only does this renew my faith that spending money here was a wise decision, it once again makes me proud to play DDO.

Secondly, some questions....

1. What happened to class enhancements that are not tied to any particular PrE?

2. A little confused from your mockup explanation in particular this portion...


A multiclassed character can change a class enhancement tree with 0 points spent in it to a different class tree that is available to them using the drop down menus. For example, if this character multiclassed into Wizard, it could change the Rogue: Thief-Acrobat tree into Wizard: Archmage, Wizard: Pale Master, or Wizard: Wild Mage. Trees that have points spent in them cannot be changed to other trees. The racial tree cannot be swapped out for a different one.

Does this mean each character will still be limited to 3PrEs? So for instance an Elven 14Bard/6Fighter would be limited to AA/Spellsinger/Longbow Kensai for instance. Or AA/Spellsinger/Virtuoso. Assuming of course having the appropriate number of APs to do it at all.

3. Final question.



Most enhancements will be able to be selected multiple times – the player will do this by selecting the same enhancement repeatedly, incrementing the number of times it has been taken, giving greater effects, up to a limit. (For example, Sneak Attack Damage can be taken 5 times.) High tiers of most enhancements will have class level requirements.

This is somewhat unclear, would this be like halfling cunning or guile for instance and each time you add to the enhancement it takes you up another rank in that particular enhancment?

[Coldin]

Reminds me a lot of the skill trees I see in SWTOR, but with the added free enhancements just for going so high up a tree.

[Havok.cry]

Of course, going kensai/mechanic/battle engineer also means you're using up a lot of action points for those three specialties.

I kind of feel like this new system is to help players not make incredibly awful builds, because it will give them direction to go. Also might buff up all existing enhancements so they're more meaningful.

Oh I agree, and for the most part I'm cleaning up my drool like everyone else. But, I figure I should get my worries out there, so my fears can be allayed, the reasons "it should be anyway" explained, or me told why I'm being dumb and not looking at it right. So far this is my only worry with the whole project.

[Thrudh]

I would hope so because those changes are awful. 30 AP for what now costs 6? Am I reading that wrong.

I think you're reading that wrong... You get those benefits for FREE after you've spent 30 APs in the Tempest tree (getting a bunch of other stuff with those 30 points).

[Eladrin]

I would hope so because those changes are awful. 30 AP for what now costs 6? Am I reading that wrong.
0 AP and no feats.

You get these automatically for spending points in the Tempest Tree, taking things like Action Boost: Haste, Two Weapon Accuracy, Slashing Blades, and A Thousand Cuts.

Edit: We've taken a bunch of the Dervish abilities and merged them into the Tempest tree. They were similar enough in nature.

[TDarkchylde]

So, the way I'm looking at this, all the enhancements will be tied into trees, and then by multiclassing, you can remove one of the "base" class's trees for one of the "secondary" class's trees.

That's all fine and dandy, but what about some enhancements for which only one or two levels are taken, say 2 Rogue on most splits. We'd have to remove an entire tree of other stuff from the main class to get access to the stuff from the splash (sneak attack damage +3, Wand and Scroll 1)?

What if the build uses stuff from multiple trees in the main class (let's say Improved Intim, Fighter Toughness and Fighter Strength end up in three different Fighter trees) - we'd have to lose access to one of those lines to pick up one or two things in a splash class tree?

If it's going to come out anything like I'm saying, DO NOT WANT!

[Havok.cry]

30 AP for what now costs 6? Am I reading that wrong?

I think I am . . . is it you get all that stuff once you spend 30 APs on other stuff?

Those are free bonuses for spend AP on other stuff.

[Phemt81]

Ideally, all of them, but we'll see how it goes.

Awesome!!! :)

Guys, don't misunderstand the devs; improving the User Interface won't change the way we take enhancements or the Action Points system. Unless they want to modify that too, but it's a completely different, separate task.

You know why developers love the tree thing? Cause trees look a bit like broccoli! :D

http://forums.ddo.com/images/avatars/fourleafbroccoli.jpg

[dkyle]

The layout looks functional and interesting.

The one thing about this I don’t like and hope I am wrong is by the looks of it multi-classed character could be getting a big nerf. Unless I am understating this wrong a multi-class character can no longer have 2+ prestige classes.

From the looks of it, all characters, multiclass or not, can have three prestige classes. The big benefit of multiclassing is that you get to choose the best PrEs out of your classes for those three. If someone wants to build a max DPS Melee, a pure Fighter gets Kensai, but the other two are likely to be mostly dead weight for him. By multiclassing, say, Ranger, and/or Barbarian, he gets to swap out SD and PDK for Tempest and Frenzied Berserker.

I have three concerns:

1. Racial PrE trees, if they work like Elves with AA do, seem likely to be way more powerful than gaining access via multiclassing. I'm concerned that specific Race+Pure Class combos will be far and away the most obvious optimums. I'd say that Racial PrEs should cap at around what a level 12 of that class would get, but that would nerf Elven AAs. Perhaps compress the existing AA line down to level 12, for Ranger AAs, make Slaying Arrows scale with character level (so equal damage to current at level 20), then add more goodies on the high end? Ranger AAs could certainly use a boost, anyway.

2. Melee PrEs for a specific class generally focus on very separate things. Combining them together makes for more versatility, but not likely higher DPS, or Tanking capability, or whatever. Multiclassing (or Racial PrEs) would be required to stack, say, two DPS PrEs. Caster PrEs, especially Pale Master and Archmage, do very similar things (increase DCs, damage, etc.). A Pure Wizard with both Pale Master and Archmage is going to be capable of huge necro DCs, just by stacking the PrEs he comes with as a pure Wizard. Essentially, unless the enhancements are radically changed, this looks like a fairely neutral change for melee, but a huge boost for Wizards, and possibly other casters. One question: are the Sorc Savants going to be rolled into a single tree? Otherwise, there's four of them, plus another promised (Acolyte of the Skin). Will there be 5 available trees to pure Sorcs, but only three can be chosen to put APs into? Seems kind of contrary to the intention of the Savant PrEs to potentially be 3 different Savants all at the same time.

3. The "APs spent" requirement seems steep, and potentially confusing for new players. While the APs spent requirement, currently, only occasionally gets in the way (mostly for Light Monks), it seems likely to be a major obstacle here. Haste boost seems likely to be part of the Acrobat tree, for example. Is it likely that the top tier Haste Boost will require extensive investment in the Acrobat tree?

[grodon9999]

0 AP and no feats.

You get these automatically for spending points in the Tempest Tree, taking things like Action Boost: Haste, Two Weapon Accuracy, and A Thousand Cuts.

Thanks, I was reading it wrong.

Being wrong is nice sometimes :)

[Cyr]

That's the tree related capstone. Your current Tier 3 is at 30 points (level 18 required).

Tempest, for instance, has the following "granted" abilities currently:


(Insert subject to change disclaimer here.)

Interesting. I see you took our advice on the full offhand damage thing. I wonder if you have examined how these things look side by side yet though. Pretty much no one cares about the shield bonus while dual wielding middle step increase. I would suggest spreading out the good benefits from these a little more on the middle steps. Something like 5% offhand strikes for 5, Full Tempest 1 for ten (plus the scimitar thing), 5% more offhand at 15, Full tempest 2 (plus the deflect arrows thing) at 20, 2.5% double strike at 25, Full tempest 3 at 30, and dervish at cap...maybe dervish is a little light compared to a full PrE tier?

[barryman5000]

0 AP and no feats.

You get these automatically for spending points in the Tempest Tree, taking things like Action Boost: Haste, Two Weapon Accuracy, Slashing Blades, and A Thousand Cuts.

Edit: We've taken a bunch of the Dervish abilities and merged them into the Tempest tree. They were similar enough in nature.

Stop name dropping. It makes me anxious.

[grodon9999]

Interesting. I see you took our advice on the full offhand damage thing. I wonder if you have examined how these things look side by side yet though. Pretty much no one cares about the shield bonus while dual wielding middle step increase. I would suggest spreading out the good benefits from these a little more on the middle steps. Something like 5% offhand strikes for 5, Full Tempest 1 for ten (plus the scimitar thing), 5% more offhand at 15, Full tempest 2 (plus the deflect arrows thing) at 20, 2.5% double strike at 25, Full tempest 3 at 30, and dervish at cap...maybe dervish is a little light compared to a full PrE tier?

It's still not worth going pure :)

I don't want to get bogged down on hypothetical details, but expect a dissertation when more is revealed :)

[Thrudh]

What if the build uses stuff from multiple trees in the main class (let's say Improved Intim, Fighter Toughness and Fighter Strength end up in three different Fighter trees) - we'd have to lose access to one of those lines to pick up one or two things in a splash class tree?

I'm guessing things like Fighter Strength and Toughness will be in all 3 fighter trees.

[LordRavnos]

30 AP for what now costs 6? Am I reading that wrong?

I think I am . . . is it you get all that stuff once you spend 30 APs on other stuff?

you are indeed reading wrong, currently its NOT 6 AP, you have to include all the costs of the AP you need to spend to unlock the PrEs currently. Since its level 18 to get tier 3 PrEs atm, generally thats 60+ AP you spend to access the top tier, after the change its going to be 30 in the tree, and level 18, and the rest spent wherever you want. I imagine( read hope) that this will remove the choices at times of Improved Heal, and other stuff that people only take to get the PrEs atm.

Edit: Holy **** I am slow

[grodon9999]

Stop name dropping. It makes me anxious.

he likes torturing me, it HAD to be RANGER details didn't it? :)

[Thrudh]

Pretty much no one cares about the shield bonus while dual wielding middle step increase.

I care about the shield bonus. :) Although I think while we're working on the PrEs, we should make that an untyped bonus... (maybe lower it by 1 to 1,2,3)

[Cyr]

I'm guessing things like Fighter Strength and Toughness will be in all 3 fighter trees.

Which brings up a good question...

Are nuts and bolts everyone wants them stuff in one tree or multiple trees (toughness, ability score increases, sneak attack damage) and if in multiple trees do they count towards multiple trees AP spent when purchased or do you have to chose the tree you want to buy them in?

Heck, and would that then lock them out of the other tree...buying str +3 from one fighter tree locks it out of the others for example?

[Havok.cry]

Currently a few enhancments are tied to race but unlocked via class, skills and spell damage (and any other "general" enhancements). Would it be possible for that to remain. Let me explain further. I would like the skill and spell damage enhancements to appear in the racial tree rather than in than in different sections of the class tree, however, still have them unlocked by your class levels. I have hope that this might be possible due to eladrins talk about the human racial PRE possibilities.

[Cyr]

I care about the shield bonus. :) Although I think while we're working on the PrEs, we should make that an untyped bonus... (maybe lower it by 1 to 1,2,3)

Well if it was an untyped bonus alot more people would care.

[grodon9999]

I care about the shield bonus. :) Although I think while we're working on the PrEs, we should make that an untyped bonus... (maybe lower it by 1 to 1,2,3)

Get a wand! it's two more AC on your 12/6/2 anyway and you should be able to get enough UMD to 50+% chance of getting it.

The bonus should be changed to untyped though, with all the other changes recently (especially the OP monk stuff) it just should be.

[Snarglefrump]

Tempest, for instance, has the following "granted" abilities currently:

Originally Posted by The Enhancements v3 Spec
5 Points Spent: +2 shield bonus when dual wielding
10 Points Spent: Tempest I, +10% off hand attacks, Scimitars are treated as light weapons and can be finessed.


Are these prices much higher or am I misunderstanding how this works? Today Tempest 1 costs me only 4 action points.

My current plan for my main toon is Monk 12, Ranger 6, Rogue 2, with Ninja Spy 2, Touch of Death, and Tempest 1. Currently the shield bonus doesn't apply to handwraps, but the off hand attack bonus does. Is that kind of multi-class configuration still going to be viable?

Edit: I should read the rest of the thread before replying...

[Thrudh]

he likes torturing me, it HAD to be RANGER details didn't it? :)

Yeah, what is Action Boost: Haste!!? And it's for Rangers!

[Terebinthia]

I'd just like to say: please don't rush this. The meaningful dialogue is great.

Also, please don't forget to sort out the premade paths along with this.

Some dialogue about feat swapping (and possibly tweaking the costs also) would be very handy for newer players.

A guide to Stormreach tutorial quest, perhaps? Just thinking about the Festival area in LOTRO, where you get a guide to all the things on offer there.

[Coldin]

0 AP and no feats.

You get these automatically for spending points in the Tempest Tree, taking things like Action Boost: Haste, Two Weapon Accuracy, Slashing Blades, and A Thousand Cuts.

Edit: We've taken a bunch of the Dervish abilities and merged them into the Tempest tree. They were similar enough in nature.

Hopefully there's some ways to make a dex-focused two weapon fighter more useful too. There's usually been no good reason to go for high dex when high strength is just as good or better.

[Cyr]

Yeah, what is Action Boost: Haste!!? And it's for Rangers!

Well what it does is for the next twenty seconds your character displays an emote which puts up a little dialogue bubble above their head which says "Haste, hit me with haste, where is the haste???"

[Thrudh]

Get a wand! it's two more AC on your 12/6/2 anyway and you should be able to get enough UMD to 50+% chance of getting it.

My next TR, I was planning on getting UMD for Shield wands (of course, THAT's on hold now)... But I still like the Tempest shield bonuses... I don't want to use a wand on every quest, just raids... but the extra 2 AC from Tempest I is certainly useful when I'm in Amrath or something.


The bonus should be changed to untyped though, with all the other changes recently (especially the OP monk stuff) it just should be.

Yes, with all the love Stalwarts and Defenders and Monks got on the AC front, there's no reason why a super-old PrE like Tempest couldn't get some extra untyped AC too.

[dejafu]

Can't say I like the idea of having action points spent requirements replaced with "spent in tree". Sounds like it will force more of a cookie cutter approach to building your enhancements.

Not a fan of the idea at all. Especially because what will no doubt happening is that you have to take enhancements that you consider worthless to get to certain other ones, which already happens to some degree with the prestige requirements (screw you improved heal!! lol)

Not a fan at all if it leads to more cookie cutter builds.

It sounds more like you'll have a whole slew of possible options to take in any given tree, any combination of which will unlock PrE features for free. So if you're going to unlock the 5 point tempest bonus, you could take (say) Haste Boost x 2 and Improved Jump x 3, or you could take Improved Sneak Attack x 3, Haste Boost x 1, and Improved Jump x 1 (just tossing in random enhancements, no idea what actual enhancements and costs will be be, obviously).

This seems to me the exact OPPOSITE of a "cookie cutter" approach.

[barryman5000]

Well what it does is for the next twenty seconds your character displays an emote which puts up a little dialogue bubble above their head which says "Haste, hit me with haste, where is the haste???"

If its like some pugs I ran with it will tell you exactly how much haste you have and how much you need.

"I only have 45 seconds of haste left. You don't have extend? Haste plz."

[Havok.cry]

Well what it does is for the next twenty seconds your character displays an emote which puts up a little dialogue bubble above their head which says "Haste, hit me with haste, where is the haste???"

Lol I would take it... But mostly I would complain that my wizard couldn't take it.... cause that would be hilarious.

[grodon9999]

Yeah, what is Action Boost: Haste!!? And it's for Rangers!

I noticed, it's was about as subtle as being hit by a train.

As the "Shade" of Rangers I'm beginning to feel oppressed.

[dkyle]

By the looks of things, Dwarves & Drow Online is about to come back with a vengeance.

But that depends on what exactly Ravager does, and what Humans and HElves get to choose from. Things are looking a bit grim for Elves, to be honest. They've already got AA, and that's not getting them very much as it is.

Melee Rangers look to be the big losers, actually, with Tempest being better used by Drow who take levels in a different Melee class. Rangers that like to both Melee and Range should be getting a big boost, though.

But of course, this is all based on very limited info.

[slimkj]

Looks pretty good. Also wondering how you're planning on dealing with non-PrE related enhancements like caster dmg lines, etc. and whether it'll lock you out of other stuff if you buy them in a particular tree.

I note you've ignored the questions on timescales so I'll ask too; any rough idea of when this will hit Lam? I won't hold you to it. (Some will :))

[slimkj]

(of course, THAT's on hold now)...
Yeah, I just parked four builds and decided to maybe run raids at 20 on others for a while. Heh.

[slimkj]

Things are looking a bit grim for Elves, to be honest.
Maybe they'll stop looking so bloody smug all the time. ;)

[Cyr]

Melee Rangers look to be the big losers, actually, with Tempest being better used by Drow who take levels in a different Melee class. Rangers that like to both Melee and Range should be getting a big boost, though.

But of course, this is all based on very limited info.

IDK, I am thinking that dwarven tempest, horc tempest, and halfling tempest will not be a rarity with these changes.

[Aelonwy]

Looks pretty good. Also wondering how you're planning on dealing with non-PrE related enhancements like caster dmg lines, etc. and whether it'll lock you out of other stuff if you buy them in a particular tree.

I am very much wondering this as well!^

[Chai]

This seems very much like WoW's talent trees.

Im glad Im not the only one to make that observation, because it certainly does look like WOW's talent trees.

As long as its not limiting options more than the current system does, the "look" is just semantics.

[Riggs]

Just starting to read from the first posts today.

Changes seem mostly awesome.

However being able to double up skill bonuses say - is fine as long as monsters do not immediately get powered up to match - and 'you have to have BOTH race and class intim or else you constantly fail' - like what has happened in so many other parts of the game. Like what happened when drow bonuses to search turned into 'you have to have a drow rogue to find elite traps, or else you wont find them' silliness.

The game does not need more stacking bonuses. None. No more. More ways to get those bonuses are awesome, more stacking is bad. bad. bad.

[Aeolwind]

Seriously, work on this till mid year or later. Put it on lam in May and take feedback. Tell whatever jack wagon in a suit pushing to release before then to ice his rear.


I love it, but this will require retooling of content if not balanced correctly. Lemme guess, new abbot is the precursor?

[MrFestive]

I want to say that I saw this mentioned earlier, but if the racial PREs are essentially identical to granted class PREs, then wouldn't this actually make it less advantageous to choose a race and class combo that duplicates PREs? For example, a dwarven fighter would get Stalwart Defender for racial PRE as well as a class PRE -- why play a dwarven fighter if you are essentially removing an available PRE path? This seems to be somewhat counter-intuitive if you are trying to say that dwarves make good Stalwart Defenders. I could see a racial PRE providing a bonus to a duplicate class PRE or allowing you to take the appropriate class PRE if normally unable to, but I could also see this getting out of hand.

I do like the trees, but I also wonder about the "general" type enhancements as well. It almost feels like you need a separate "class" tab just for them. I'm thinking of things like the spell casting enhancements (damage, crit, crit multiplier). If you don't have a separate general tree, how are they going to fit into the tabs shown? It would have to go under one or more of the PREs, but then would have to be cross-counted for each PRE, which could result in qualifying for additional PRE ranks, etc... For that matter, where are the current racial enhancements going to go (racial attribute bonus, halfling sneak attack bonus, WF healers friend, etc...)?

All in all, very cool though -- keep it up.

[Cauthey]

I'd just like to say: please don't rush this. The meaningful dialogue is great.

Also, please don't forget to sort out the premade paths along with this.

Some dialogue about feat swapping (and possibly tweaking the costs also) would be very handy for newer players.

A guide to Stormreach tutorial quest, perhaps? Just thinking about the Festival area in LOTRO, where you get a guide to all the things on offer there.

Here, here!!! +1!

[QuantumFX]

Yeah, what is Action Boost: Haste!!? And it's for Rangers!

And what is this strange “Ability Modifier” that affects damage? And finessable scimitars with drow…

[Eladrin]

I want to say that I saw this mentioned earlier, but if the racial PREs are essentially identical to granted class PREs, then wouldn't this actually make it less advantageous to choose a race and class combo that duplicates PREs?
It saves you some points. A Dwarf could unlock SD through the racial tree, but that costs some action points to do. A Dwarven Fighter can go straight into it without needing to unlock it first.

[grodon9999]

And what is this strange “Ability Modifier” that affects damage? And finessable scimitars with drow…

I caught that to, but not taking the bait! :)

[NytCrawlr]

Edit: We've taken a bunch of the Dervish abilities and merged them into the Tempest tree. They were similar enough in nature.

Woohoo!

Was just saying last night while I was playing my Kensai that I hoped the Dervish was going to see some light.

[quijenoth]

So, the way I'm looking at this, all the enhancements will be tied into trees, and then by multiclassing, you can remove one of the "base" class's trees for one of the "secondary" class's trees.

That's all fine and dandy, but what about some enhancements for which only one or two levels are taken, say 2 Rogue on most splits. We'd have to remove an entire tree of other stuff from the main class to get access to the stuff from the splash (sneak attack damage +3, Wand and Scroll 1)?

What if the build uses stuff from multiple trees in the main class (let's say Improved Intim, Fighter Toughness and Fighter Strength end up in three different Fighter trees) - we'd have to lose access to one of those lines to pick up one or two things in a splash class tree?

If it's going to come out anything like I'm saying, DO NOT WANT!

I think its pretty much as your describing except for one important factor.

The bottom line of, dare i say it, "FREE" abilities tied to the class are level restricted, the rest I belive are not. so currently your 2 splash rogue could get sneak attack accuracy I but under the new system you can actually get up to sneak attack accuracy IV. simply put if you have access to the tree you can select it ALL. Only FREE abilities (and maybe a select few others) will be restricted by your class level.

I'm assuming main class enhancements not tied to a specific prestige enhancement will be present in multiple trees. for example fighter attack boost might be seen in stalwart and kensai but by taking one you lock out the other the only effect this has is to limit the number of APs you can spend in that tree a little. with the right build you should be able to mix and match to get what you want but to hit a capstone you will probably have to remain pure.

from a build point of view this system looks like it will give splash builds access to more features of the splash class while making us think more closely about what we might lose by doing so - IMHO thats a good thing. It makes the splash restrictions bleed over into ehancements, making a pure fighter better than any fighter rogue splash at being a pure fighter.

Devs please correct me if Im wrong but thats how I see it working.

[grodon9999]

It saves you some points. A Dwarf could unlock SD through the racial tree, but that costs some action points to do. A Dwarven Fighter can go straight into it without needing to unlock it first.

You guys are 90% done right now and just like torturing people don't you?

[dkyle]

IDK, I am thinking that dwarven tempest, horc tempest, and halfling tempest will not be a rarity with these changes.

Stalwart Dwarf+Tempest Ranger doesn't strike me as a great combo. Yeah, the Tempest gives some AC, but unless we also get a serious AC revamp, that doesn't mean much. When going for serious AC (where it matters), the Stalwart would still want to pull out a shield. For a character that wants to have options for both great DPS, and a Stalwart Barbarian seems like a better choice to me, since the Barbarian would help both with DPS, and tanking with gigantic HP totals where AC isn't worthwhile.

Ravager HOrc+Tempest Ranger is hard to say, without knowing more. It's a combo clearly meant for high DPS. My gut is that Tempest Drow+Barbarian Ravager would be more DPS.

Assassin Halfling+Tempest Ranger strikes me as almost strictly worse than Tempest Drow+Pure Rogue. Yes, the Ranger gets a little more "with-aggro" DPS against favored enemies, but the Rogue should get way more DPS in most situations.

Again, not much info to make those judgements, just my intuition at this point.

[Havok.cry]

OK I'm disappointed in you all. I've hit refresh twice now and had no new posts. Post Faster people. Comeon! Please invent some drama to fill in the space till someone says something on topic please.

[QuantumFX]

I caught that to, but not taking the bait! :)

I, for one, welcome our xXDrizztXx clone army.

[Urist]

Having just checked out the mockup interface, my first thought was: "oh my, that's a rather wide UI".
I guess we know now why the "Let's Talk: Screen Resolution" topic was brought up. ;)

[zeonardo]

I see tempest, assassin, defenders, casters talk...
What about the always left behind divines?
No domains, no +2WIS race, few Deity Faith lines (and all but 2 are almost worthless past level 6). Any news? Divine Avenger? Warpriest?

Will it get some love too? I hope so!

One more thing: We are not talking about U13 here, right?

And thanks for all the communication. Can't hide the good hope.

[gloopygloop]

So here is the mockup that was promised.

I like this mockup, but I also want different class abilities that are based on what outfit my girl puts on that morning.

And I want to be able to throw plat at enemies for damage.

[dkyle]

It saves you some points. A Dwarf could unlock SD through the racial tree, but that costs some action points to do. A Dwarven Fighter can go straight into it without needing to unlock it first.

Unless the unlock takes a ton of APs, I can't see this being a good balancing factor compared to multiclassing to gain access to the PrE.

A suggestion: make the "racial PrE" instead act as a "sampler" of the PrE tree (up through level 6, with those effective levels gained gradually while leveling to 20) if the character has no levels in that class. If they have class levels in that class, the Racial PrE enhancement instead raises their effective level for that PrE by 6 (again, gained gradually over the course of leveling), maxing out at character level. So, we might see a Drow Ranger12/Barb6/Monk2 that is able to get the 5% Doublestrike thanks to racials. Or a Drow Pure Rogue that gets the 10% extra offhand procs.

Elves would get one racial PrE that works like the above (maybe Archmage?), plus the option of the full Arcane Archer line they currently get.

[quijenoth]

That's the tree related capstone. Your current Tier 3 is at 30 points (level 18 required).

Tempest, for instance, has the following "granted" abilities currently:

Originally Posted by The Enhancements v3 Spec
5 Points Spent: +2 shield bonus when dual wielding
10 Points Spent: Tempest I, +10% off hand attacks, Scimitars are treated as light weapons and can be finessed.
15 Points Spent: +3 shield bonus when dual wielding
20 Points Spent: Tempest II, +10% off hand attacks, Deflect Arrows while dual wielding
15 Points Spent: +4 shield bonus when dual wielding
30 Points Spent: Tempest III, +5% doublestrike when dual wielding
41 Points Spent: Dervish - Full ability score bonus for damage on off hand

(Insert subject to change disclaimer here.)

Oh no please not scimitars for tempest! if drow get tempest for racial pre = 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 Drizzt clones running round Eberron!! NNNOOOOOooooooo..... (runs out the room screaming !)

[voodoogroves]

It's still not worth going pure :)

I don't want to get bogged down on hypothetical details, but expect a dissertation when more is revealed :)

Unless there's a different capstone option.

[Havok.cry]

I like this mockup, but I also want different class abilities that are based on what outfit my girl puts on that morning.

And I want to be able to throw plat at enemies for damage.

FF x-2 DDO edition lol

as to the second line, play a caster, they can.

[grodon9999]

Stalwart Dwarf+Tempest Ranger doesn't strike me as a great combo. Yeah, the Tempest gives some AC, but unless we also get a serious AC revamp, that doesn't mean much. When going for serious AC (where it matters), the Stalwart would still want to pull out a shield. For a character that wants to have options for both great DPS, and a Stalwart Barbarian seems like a better choice to me, since the Barbarian would help both with DPS, and tanking with gigantic HP totals where AC isn't worthwhile.

As a proud owner of a 95+ AC 12/6/2 Stalwart II Tempest I, I gotta tell you your aren't even close to right. You use a shield for DR and getting cheesy % reduction from shield mastery. In anything where AC will work you don't actually need a shield.

For pure or mostly ranger . . . what's not to love about +6 STR/CON and 20% more HP above that? You've just "fixed" the ranger "issue" with just that, even if you dump AC completely on the toon. You're looking at fighter HP. Of course you just locked yourself out of rage, madstone, and double madstone so it's probably a wash . . .



Ravager HOrc+Tempest Ranger is hard to say, without knowing more. It's a combo clearly meant for high DPS. My gut is that Tempest Drow+Barbarian Ravager would be more DPS.

Yes, that looks potentially ubber if "ravager" does what we think it will with expanded crit-range and stuff.



Assassin Halfling+Tempest Ranger strikes me as almost strictly worse than Tempest Drow+Pure Rogue. Yes, the Ranger gets a little more "with-aggro" DPS against favored enemies, but the Rogue should get way more DPS in most situations.

Again, not much info to make those judgements, just my intuition at this point.

90 sneak attack damage a swing, on a 100% off-hand attack toon, is ubber no matter how you get there.

[Vordax]

Having just checked out the mockup interface, my first thought was: "oh my, that's a rather wide UI".
I guess we know now why the "Let's Talk: Screen Resolution" topic was brought up. ;)

I suspect its wide to show more info in the mock up, actual implementation probably will be tabbed.

Vordax

[oradafu]

After seeing the mock-up, I'm going to have to lean towards not liking what I am seeing. As others have pointed out, it seems like this would make classes even more cookie-cutter than they already are. If it's just going to be a racial tree and some prestige trees, it looks like several things will be dropped. For me, it looks like it will be helping casters more than melees since casters will have a simpler spell manipulation tree, but melees will have a more constricted tree that forcing them into one of the 3 class prestige class whether they want it or not.

[grodon9999]

Oh no please not scimitars for tempest! if drow get tempest for racial pre = 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 Drizzt clones running round Eberron!! NNNOOOOOooooooo..... (runs out the room screaming !)

So what? It's more "D&D" than all the silly robot dogs.

it's it's not like the servers aren't already infested with them, this would give them and avenue of viability.

Love it or hate it, RA Salvatore is a huge part of D&D lore. The fact that the most famous character in D&D lore would be an utter gimp in this game is broken, these are good changes.

[Havok.cry]

For me, it looks like it will be helping casters more than melees since casters will have a simpler spell manipulation tree, but melees will have a more constricted tree that forcing them into one of the 3 class prestige class whether they want it or not.

Spell manipulation tree? Last I checked casters have PREs too. Their trees will likely coincide with those PRE's, possibly locking out certain amounts of their spell maniputation in the case of sorcs. Also note that the tree's capstone is acheived at 41 points in the tree... leaving 39 points to spend in another tree... that is 2 t3 prestiges with a bit left over... for ANY class.

[geoffhanna]

Last one on this topic.

I point out that halflings are a DEX race and would be better served with a DEX PrE and am told unrelated facts regarding TWF minimums.

I point out that Assassin will not compete at end game with the other racial PrEs and am told unrelated facts regarding butterflies.

I point out that Acrobat would be a better fit with halflings in traditional literature and D&D usage and am told unrelated facts comparing acrobats and assassins.

I point out that there are several other PrCs in the SRD that would be a better fit and am told ... crickets, no response.

I point out a minor feat that could be given to Acrobat and would make it a competitive PrE at end game as well as better fit for halflings and am told ... crickets, no response.

I understand that I am in the minority among people who are reading this thread. I do not believe that puts me in the minority among people who play the game, and most relevant to this topic, among people who like to play halflings.

At least I know a dev read my opinion. Did not agree, but at least read it.

Carry on with the debating :) l8r

[Ungood]

I have to say, at this point, you guys have me totally excited to see what you all finally bring to the table.

This is looking truly amazing, and I hope that it opens up the doors you all want to open.

I am going to reserve judgment on this till I see it more fleshed out, but I for one am excited about this change.

[karl_k0ch]

I, for one, welcome our new enhancement tree overlords.

[Havok.cry]

I point out that Assassin will not compete at end game with the other racial PrEs and am told unrelated facts regarding butterflies.



lolololololol

[quijenoth]

So what? It's more "D&D" than all the silly robot dogs.

You obviously dont get that Drizzt is Forgotten Realms, Iron Defenders and warforge is Eberron, Both are D&D.

Immersion is king. As I've said before DDO is actually quite far from D&D in computer format, but its still holding on to Eberron for its Immersion. Go away from that as well and it might as well be WoW.

[grodon9999]

You obviously dont get that Drizzt is Forgotten Realms, Iron Defenders and warforge is Eberron, Both are D&D.

Immersion is king. As I've said before DDO is actually quite far from D&D in computer format, but its still holding on to Eberron for its Immersion. Go away from that as well and it might as well be WoW.

Haven't forgotten, just don't care. Don't give a hoot about Eberon and never will. All the Eberon "stuff" is something I tolerate to play a game losely based on D&D.

[Cyr]

Some builds to consider based upon what we have seen so far (and the lack of any feat requirements possible on PrEs)...

SD + dwarf PM
SD + warforged arcane
Drow DC arcane through archamage + PM
Dwarf multiclass tank build based on tempest +SD...see grodon999's build
Dwarf Pure monk ninja spy 3 + SD for tanking or DPS purposes
Drow scimitar wielding assassin/tempest assuming that the player in question is not a fool and dumpstats str...
Mechanic + Battle Engineer Pure Artificer Helf
Halfling assassin 3 + Tempest
Halfing assassin 3 + Ninja spy
Horc Ravager (assuming it does what we think it will) + Kensai
Horc Ravager + Tempest
Dwarf Defender of Siberys 3 + SD 3
Horc Ravager + Warchanter
Dwarf/warforged Angel of Vengance + SD
Human Spellsinger + Angel of Vengance (for lots of spellcasting buffage by debuffing and buffing)

[grodon9999]

Some builds to consider based upon what we have seen so far (and the lack of any feat requirements possible on PrEs)...

SD + dwarf PM
SD + warforged arcane
Drow DC arcane through archamage + PM
Dwarf multiclass tank build based on tempest +SD...see grodon999's build
Dwarf Pure monk ninja spy 3 + SD for tanking or DPS purposes
Drow scimitar wielding assassin/tempest assuming that the player in question is not a fool and dumpstats str...
Mechanic + Battle Engineer Pure Artificer Helf
Halfling assassin 3 + Tempest
Halfing assassin 3 + Ninja spy
Horc Ravager (assuming it does what we think it will) + Kensai
Horc Ravager + Tempest
Dwarf Defender of Siberys 3 + SD 3
Horc Ravager + Warchanter
Dwarf Angel of Vengance + SD

Don't forget Halfling AA + Assassin 3 as long as it has 18 levels of ranger . . .

[Havok.cry]

You obviously dont get that Drizzt is Forgotten Realms, Iron Defenders and warforge is Eberron, Both are D&D.

Immersion is king. As I've said before DDO is actually quite far from D&D in computer format, but its still holding on to Eberron for its Immersion. Go away from that as well and it might as well be WoW.

I'm wondering why rapiers aren't good enough for tempests. Both rangers and drow are proficient in them, and they have the same stats as a scimitar. Only 2 differences are slashing/piercing and one was wielded by a fanboi idol that suffered from maincharacteritis.

[BOgre]

So here is the mockup that was promised.

Thank you so very much for that. Exactly what I was hoping you'd show us. And exactly what I was hoping you were going for as well! I'm betting there'll be bugs, as it looks like a LOT of work, but I'm really excited to get started!

Good job and good luck guys. This is going to be sweet. :)

[oradafu]

Spell manipulation tree? Last I checked casters have PREs too. Their trees will likely coincide with those PRE's, possibly locking out certain amounts of their spell maniputation in the case of sorcs. Also not that the tree's capstone is acheived at 41 points in the tree... leaving 39 points to spend in another tree... that is 2 t3 prestiges with a bit left over... for ANY class.

My worry is that it appears the generic class enhancements are being forced into the prestige class enhancements. As the mock up looks now for a pure class, the trees consist of Race and 3 prestige class enhancements. I was hoping for more of a Race + base class + skill + prestige class of tree, with the prestige class containing fewer but more powerful enhancements (similar to what we have now). But the looks of things, it appears that the generic stuff is being moved to the prestige classes, making more cookie cutter type builds. Perhaps I'm not explaining my worries very well, but for me, it looks like this new system will be forcing people into one direction instead of making it easier to customize the build.

[dejafu]

Things are looking a bit grim for Elves, to be honest. They've already got AA, and that's not getting them very much as it is.


I have to agree - either AA needs some serious boostage and/or there needs to be another elven racial option... Archmage, perhaps?

Oooh, wait, Palemaster is actually thematically perfect for Aerenal Elves, and could make for some REALLY fun builds!

[grodon9999]

I'm wondering why rapiers aren't good enough for tempests. Both rangers and drow are proficient in them, and they have the same stats as a scimitar. Only 2 differences are slashing/piercing and one was wielded by a fanboi idol that suffered from maincharacteritis.

Rapiers can already be finessed

[Thrudh]

Some builds to consider based upon what we have seen so far (and the lack of any feat requirements possible on PrEs)...

SD + dwarf PM
SD + warforged arcane
Drow DC arcane through archamage + PM
Dwarf multiclass tank build based on tempest +SD...see grodon999's build
Dwarf Pure monk ninja spy 3 + SD for tanking or DPS purposes
Drow scimitar wielding assassin/tempest assuming that the player in question is not a fool and dumpstats str...
Mechanic + Battle Engineer Pure Artificer Helf
Halfling assassin 3 + Tempest
Halfing assassin 3 + Ninja spy
Horc Ravager (assuming it does what we think it will) + Kensai
Horc Ravager + Tempest
Dwarf Defender of Siberys 3 + SD 3
Horc Ravager + Warchanter
Dwarf/warforged Angel of Vengance + SD
Human Spellsinger + Angel of Vengance (for lots of spellcasting buffage by debuffing and buffing)

These are mostly just race mixed with a pure class...

How does this new system work with the deeply multi-classed?

For instance, my halfling 12/6/2 fighter/ranger/monk.

Can I still get SD II, and Tempest I? And then also assasin III? Can I go higher in the SD and Tempest trees than I can today?

[Thalmor]

You obviously dont get that Drizzt is Forgotten Realms, Iron Defenders and warforge is Eberron, Both are D&D.

Immersion is king. As I've said before DDO is actually quite far from D&D in computer format, but its still holding on to Eberron for its Immersion. Go away from that as well and it might as well be WoW.

I play a Drow Tempest Ranger, and making Scimitars light weapons will not be enough for me to convert my tempest to Scimitars. It will depend on how they change the racial weapon attack/damage enhacements. Now I may carry a set of Scimitars for situational damage, but I'm thinking that racial weapons might be getting a little boost too.

However, my Elf Tempest has just saved himself a feat.

[Cyr]

Don't forget Halfling AA + Assassin 3 as long as it has 18 levels of ranger . . .

I actually like Halfling battle engineer 3 (pure arty) + Assassin 3 better. More chances for those vorpal roles!

[quijenoth]

I'm wondering why rapiers aren't good enough for tempests. Both rangers and drow are proficient in them, and they have the same stats as a scimitar. Only 2 differences are slashing/piercing and one was wielded by a fanboi idol that suffered from maincharacteritis.

because rapiers are already finesse weapons - this ability just adds scimitars to the list. personally Id like to see longswords too, making the option of a finesse version of whirling steel strike.

[Havok.cry]

Some builds to consider based upon what we have seen so far (and the lack of any feat requirements possible on PrEs)...

SD + dwarf PM
SD + warforged arcane
Drow DC arcane through archamage + PM
Dwarf multiclass tank build based on tempest +SD...see grodon999's build
Dwarf Pure monk ninja spy 3 + SD for tanking or DPS purposes
Drow scimitar wielding assassin/tempest assuming that the player in question is not a fool and dumpstats str...
Mechanic + Battle Engineer Pure Artificer Helf
Halfling assassin 3 + Tempest
Halfing assassin 3 + Ninja spy
Horc Ravager (assuming it does what we think it will) + Kensai
Horc Ravager + Tempest
Dwarf Defender of Siberys 3 + SD 3
Horc Ravager + Warchanter
Dwarf/warforged Angel of Vengance + SD
Human Spellsinger + Angel of Vengance (for lots of spellcasting buffage by debuffing and buffing)

Halfling assassin druid
Horc ravager druid
Dwarf/WF SD druid
Drow tempest druid
Human Palemaster druid
Elf arcane archer deepwoodsniper named druid (so it fits in my list)
Helf AoV Druid

[Cyr]

These are mostly just race mixed with a pure class...

How does this new system work with the deeply multi-classed?

For instance, my halfling 12/6/2 fighter/ranger/monk.

Can I still get SD II, and Tempest I? And then also assasin III? Can I go higher in the SD and Tempest trees than I can today?

Well we do not know the exact premium to get into your racial PrE. I am assuming it is 10 or less myself.

If so then it would be 20 for SD 2, 10 for tempest 1, and 40 for assassin 3.

Which would leave ten points for stuff from another PrE tier from monk, fighter, or ranger...but you would only be able to get an actual PrE bonus benefit from fighter or ranger since you don't have six levels in monk. So Kensai 1, deepwood sniper 1, or AA...junk. So probably something from a monk line without a PrE benefit?

Note we also know that you will not have the capstone benefit unless you spend even more on assassin 3 (11 points based on the ranger example we have)...assuming racial PrE's grant that.

[Ganolyn]

I'd like to request that Vermin and Elemental Empathies both be allowed to be brought up to the Improved Wild Empathy level of being able to charm them. It would be worth taking them then, especially if you guys are not going to tone down Air Elementals at all. I'm a little foggy on how the new chart system works and how much AP's will be needed, but it looks good so far.

[Thalmor]

because rapiers are already finesse weapons - this ability just adds scimitars to the list. personally Id like to see longswords too, making the option of a finesse version of whirling steel strike.

I'm not sold on longswords being included as finesse weapons, if you want a slashing weapon that can be considered as a finesse weapon, then have them introduce the Cutlass.

[Tyrande]

So here is the mockup that was promised.

To make it easier to digest, I’ve copy-pasted a section direct from Eladrin’s spec below. Again, all of this is subject to change.

In practice, the trees will probably look different, with more sideways arrows, etc but it should give you a pretty good idea of what we have in mind.

[...]

MadFlyod, love your pictures and trees. Visually it is much easier for a player to plan out their characters.



A single classed character will have their racial tree and the three trees that are associated with their class displayed. These trees correspond to the three Prestige Enhancement lines tied to the class.

A multiclassed character can change a class enhancement tree with 0 points spent in it to a different class tree that is available to them using the drop down menus. For example, if this character multiclassed into Wizard, it could change the Rogue: Thief-Acrobat tree into Wizard: Archmage, Wizard: Pale Master, or Wizard: Wild Mage. Trees that have points spent in them cannot be changed to other trees. The racial tree cannot be swapped out for a different one.

Does that mean if someone is building a Half Elf 18wizard/2rogue could have the Human racial tree (i.e. anything) and swap out the 0 points thief acrobat tree for Archmage T3, the mechanic tree for Pale Master T3 but keep the Assassin tree after spending points in PM and AM? As for the Anything part, as a human, that character can also take Arcane Archer or Ravager just in case spell points and potions ran out?



Each race will have an enhancement that adds another specific enhancement tree to the character’s available list of trees. Elves and Half-Elves, for instance, gain access to the Arcane Archer tree if they take the racial enhancement to unlock it. Dwarves gain access to Stalwart Defender. The player can choose to unlock the tree and then not use it, if they so desire. Trees unlocked in this way use the character’s total character level instead of class level for prerequisites and effects.

Initially, players will have the bottom row of enhancements available to them. As players spend enhancement points within the current tree, additional tiers of enhancements will become available to them. Enhancements will no longer have a “total action points spent” prerequisite, this is replaced by a “total action points spent in this tree” prerequisite, and is defined by the tier the enhancement is on. (5 * [Tier of Enhancement – 1])

Seems like a lot of versatility in the build options and not enough Action Points :)

That's just hope QA folks like Major have their master test plan and automation frameworks ready for this new UI and enhancements feast. Just hope their scripts can use some background SOAP APIs to test all combos of the PREs before the players found out some PREs are not working correctly.

Of course, the new UI looks pretty much like talent trees and its an industry standard pretty much.



Most enhancements will be able to be selected multiple times – [...]

Enhancements that are unavailable to the player are greyed out. Enhancements can still have feat or class level prerequisites – [...]

Some enhancements have other enhancements as a prerequisites chain. These are shown in the mockup with arrows in between them. [...]

Each enhancement tree will have a line of enhancements that are automatically granted to the character based on the number of points spent in that tree. [...]


Looks like a lot of UI bugs to be found.



Players should be able to spend action points anywhere in the world by opening up the Enhancements UI, without needing to seek out a trainer. Enhancements can be reset on a tree-by-tree basis using the “Reset Enhancements” button near the bottom of each pane, which is only available in public areas. This has a platinum cost associated with it based on the number of points currently spent in the tree.

Is this available on the Heart of Wind airship for reincarnations as well?
I hope this new UI and enhancements will be thoroughly tested before release if planned for 2012.

P.S. probably this question is out of the bounds of this thread, but it begs to ask the question: If there are plans to go beyond level 20, does that mean you get more APs to spend on these trees?

[Vormaerin]

I'm wondering why rapiers aren't good enough for tempests. Both rangers and drow are proficient in them, and they have the same stats as a scimitar. Only 2 differences are slashing/piercing and one was wielded by a fanboi idol that suffered from maincharacteritis.

Because they are fleshing out the Tempest PrE with Dervish PrC abilities...and some of those are slashing weapon oriented.

Rapier is also completely non-iconic for the class. No one uses rapiers on their ranger in p&p that I've ever seen. Only reason you'd have crazy high dex is if you are going down the archer line. In which case you *might* squeeze in weapon finesse. But most p&p rangers try to have a good strength since bow and melee damage are Str based.

If you want to blame Drizzt for something, its not scimitars. Its dual wielding. Dual wielding had nothing to do with rangers until the edition after Drizzt became god...

[sephiroth1084]

You might consider increasing the number of action points from 4 per level to 5 per level.
If the cost of enhancements is being dropped across the board, that's a psuedo-boost to the amount of AP we have. If some of the enhancements that aren't quite worth 1 point get buffed or merged with other fractional ones, that will have the same effect as well. 5/level would be nice, but I don't think it's something that needs doing.

We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.
I really like this idea! I'm in favor of PrEs getting some of their secondary and tertiary abilities broken off the main chain and getting their own niche prerequisites--Pale Master does this well with the undead forms.

But the healing penalties in the modern game have really killed their viability. When you're going through literally hundreds of hjeal-scrolls a raid having a WF stalwart is just not practical.

If you make the defensive aspects that WF and dorfs can bring to the table viable in ALL levels of play this might be viable, but as it is now it is not.

Make the AC and DR worth something in the hardest levels, even epic LOB, and you might be cooking with gas, as it is now the best options are some silly earth-stance builds with such broken levels of healing amplification it screams "nerf meh!"
I agree with this.
I'd prefer WF to get some other PrE as their racial--Juggernaut if that's possible, maybe Kensai if not.

WF also need some sources for repair amplification.

So here is the mockup that was promised.

To make it easier to digest, I’ve copy-pasted a section direct from Eladrin’s spec below. Again, all of this is subject to change.

In practice, the trees will probably look different, with more sideways arrows, etc but it should give you a pretty good idea of what we have in mind.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/MadFloyd/EnhancementMockup.jpg

A single classed character will have their racial tree and the three trees that are associated with their class displayed. These trees correspond to the three Prestige Enhancement lines tied to the class.

A multiclassed character can change a class enhancement tree with 0 points spent in it to a different class tree that is available to them using the drop down menus. For example, if this character multiclassed into Wizard, it could change the Rogue: Thief-Acrobat tree into Wizard: Archmage, Wizard: Pale Master, or Wizard: Wild Mage. Trees that have points spent in them cannot be changed to other trees. The racial tree cannot be swapped out for a different one.

Each race will have an enhancement that adds another specific enhancement tree to the character’s available list of trees. Elves and Half-Elves, for instance, gain access to the Arcane Archer tree if they take the racial enhancement to unlock it. Dwarves gain access to Stalwart Defender. The player can choose to unlock the tree and then not use it, if they so desire. Trees unlocked in this way use the character’s total character level instead of class level for prerequisites and effects.

Initially, players will have the bottom row of enhancements available to them. As players spend enhancement points within the current tree, additional tiers of enhancements will become available to them. Enhancements will no longer have a “total action points spent” prerequisite, this is replaced by a “total action points spent in this tree” prerequisite, and is defined by the tier the enhancement is on. (5 * [Tier of Enhancement – 1])

Most enhancements will be able to be selected multiple times – the player will do this by selecting the same enhancement repeatedly, incrementing the number of times it has been taken, giving greater effects, up to a limit. (For example, Sneak Attack Damage can be taken 5 times.) High tiers of most enhancements will have class level requirements.

Enhancements that are unavailable to the player are greyed out. Enhancements can still have feat or class level prerequisites – if a player does not meet these prerequisites, a red border or lock display is added to the icon. This should not be subtle, it should be absolutely clear to the player that there’s something wrong here, and they need to do something if they want this enhancement. Players can figure out what requirements they’re missing by viewing the tooltip.

Some enhancements have other enhancements as a prerequisites chain. These are shown in the mockup with arrows in between them. Knife Attack leads to Knife Damage, which then leads to Knife Specialization. An enhancement that has another as a prerequisite cannot have a rank higher than its prerequisite, so to get Knife Damage III, the player must have Knife Attack III. To get Knife Spec IV, the player must have both Knife Attack IV and Knife Damage IV. Most enhancements cost 1 Action Point. Rare ones will cost more. Costs do not increase each time you take an enhancement.

Each enhancement tree will have a line of enhancements that are automatically granted to the character based on the number of points spent in that tree. For example, when a character puts any 10 points in the Assassin tree, they will gain the Assassin I enhancement if they meet all other prerequisites. (Rogue level 6 in this case.) If they do not meet the prerequisites, then they will NOT gain the enhancement until they do. (Any time a player modifies their feats or gains a level, we’ll have to check access to the auto-granted enhancements.) These are shown in the mockup as the horizontal row of enhancements beneath the tree name.

Players should be able to spend action points anywhere in the world by opening up the Enhancements UI, without needing to seek out a trainer. Enhancements can be reset on a tree-by-tree basis using the “Reset Enhancements” button near the bottom of each pane, which is only available in public areas. This has a platinum cost associated with it based on the number of points currently spent in the tree.
This looks pretty excellent, but I have one major question:

Are any abilities duplicated from one tree to the other, and if so, how does that work?
For example, would Sneak Attack training appear in all 3 rogue trees, or just Assassin? If it's just in Assassin how is that going to shake out with players having to spend AP in the trees they want for the PrEs they want, but also desiring more generic class abilities that appear elsewhere? If they are duplicated, how does that count for PrEs? Does it count as X AP spent in all trees that have the enhancement, or just the tree you select it in?

Is the system set-up so that say, a Mechanic who also wants some sneak attack bonuses from enhancements will have the AP to spend on those while still maxing out their chosen PrE? Will they end up with incidental PrE abilities from other trees this way?

[Vormaerin]

Is the system set-up so that say, a Mechanic who also wants some sneak attack bonuses from enhancements will have the AP to spend on those while still maxing out their chosen PrE? Will they end up with incidental PrE abilities from other trees this way?

This is what it looks like. Capstone abilities for the PrE are at 41 pts spent in that tree. So presumably the other 39 points are going to be spent in racial and other prestige lines.

[sephiroth1084]

Also, I hope that some serious tutorial options will be available, as I foresee the expanded options this looks to be putting in our hands will be even more overwhelming for newer players (or those who don't spend half their time on the forums and with the character planner like I do) to digest. I'm not the most pro-newbie player here, but I do want the game to grow, and I feel like the learning curve for character building in DDO is already at the steeper end of the video game/MMO spectrum. Better visualization will help, but you're increasing options considerably at the same time.

It would be good to add an extend tutorial to Korthos or to character generation.

[Angelus_dead]

If you want to blame Drizzt for something, its not scimitars. Its dual wielding. Dual wielding had nothing to do with rangers until the edition after Drizzt became god...
That is spectacularly backwards.

The reason Drizzt dual-wields is because he's an AD&D Ranger, and the reason for AD&D Rangers to dual-wield is because Aragorn did it... in a book from 1937.

[sirgog]

This is what it looks like. Capstone abilities for the PrE are at 41 pts spent in that tree. So presumably the other 39 points are going to be spent in racial and other prestige lines.

Or you could go deeper still into 'your tree' if you think they are the best enhancements still.

[Angelus_dead]

What's hilarious to me is that (aside from the racial part), the new DDO enhancements look a lot like the WOW talent system... which WOW recently dropped in favor of something even more simplified.

[Havok.cry]

Because they are fleshing out the Tempest PrE with Dervish PrC abilities...and some of those are slashing weapon oriented.

Rapier is also completely non-iconic for the class. No one uses rapiers on their ranger in p&p that I've ever seen. Only reason you'd have crazy high dex is if you are going down the archer line. In which case you *might* squeeze in weapon finesse. But most p&p rangers try to have a good strength since bow and melee damage are Str based.

If you want to blame Drizzt for something, its not scimitars. Its dual wielding. Dual wielding had nothing to do with rangers until the edition after Drizzt became god...

First sentence makes sense. I can get on board with that.... now to argue about the rest cause its fun :)

I've seen rapiers used all the time in PnP, by rangers. You don't have to use weapon finesse with a rapier, and it breaks more thing's DR than a scimitar does. Rangers Don't really have an Iconic weapon Imho... till drizzt.

As to blame, I blame drizzt for everything. Especially the inquisition, totally his fault. Also that one hurricane can be traced back to him. That one time I aggroed a whole dungeon and dragged it to the group and cast sleetstorm and globe of invulnerability was even his fault.

[sephiroth1084]

This is what it looks like. Capstone abilities for the PrE are at 41 pts spent in that tree. So presumably the other 39 points are going to be spent in racial and other prestige lines.
That's what it looks like to me as well, but there are a lot of questions on this stuff, particularly with how enhancements work across trees.

If there is no bleed, I expect that many players will end up with 1 full PrE line and maybe 3/5 of another, and a piece of a third. If there is sharing across trees, it may be possible to max-out two PrEs. Some of this is important information, while the rest is merely relevant and interesting.

For example, will things like the Kensai/AA still be possible?

[MrFestive]

It saves you some points. A Dwarf could unlock SD through the racial tree, but that costs some action points to do. A Dwarven Fighter can go straight into it without needing to unlock it first.

Thanks for the response -- the only issue with that method is that this will still mean that a dwarven fighter is at a PRE disadvantage to a race that doesn't include a fighter PRE as it's racial PRE. Why choose to be a dwarf or WF fighter if all it grants is more costly access to a PRE that you already get through your class? There are other reasons obviously -- specific racial bonuses like WF arcane healing or dwarf bonuses to save vrs spells, but it still doesn't make sense from a PRE/enhancement standpoint.

From a PRE standpoint, it would still make more sense to run something like a halfling fighter -- then you would get access to assassin and all three fighter PREs. It would also make sense to run a dwarven or WF non-fighter class, because you could get access to SD as well (at an increased cost admittedly). The current and best use for racial PREs that I have seen is to apply Arcane Archer benefits to a ranged class mix while still allowing you to grab other PREs -- the Helves Angel build for example. Under this new method, you can already do this by presumably just selecting three PREs available due to your class split -- Arcane Archer and Tempest from Ranger, and Kensai from Fighter. No half-elf or elf race required. Again, halfling would work because it would grant access to the Assassin tree.

Just something else to think about -- I'm sure there is plenty we don't know and that that I haven't thought about. Thanks again for letting the community have some design input.

[voodoogroves]

The fact that the most famous character in D&D lore would be an utter gimp in this game is broken, these are good changes.

Vecna?

[wax_on_wax_off]

You've got to be fricking kidding me, finessable scimitars, tempest as drow PrE; it will be the dawn of the drizzt clone!

Please don't cater to all the xxxdrizztxxx's out there, it will ruin the game. Stick to the original PrE; Warforged Juggernaut, Scorpion Wraith etc, anything else is just cutting corners and going to be a bad bad idea.

[Havok.cry]

Thanks for the response -- the only issue with that method is that this will still mean that a dwarven fighter is at a PRE disadvantage to a race that doesn't include a fighter PRE as it's racial PRE. Why choose to be a dwarf or WF fighter if all it grants is more costly access to a PRE that you already get through your class? There are other reasons obviously -- specific racial bonuses like WF arcane healing or dwarf bonuses to save vrs spells, but it still doesn't make sense from a PRE/enhancement standpoint.

From a PRE standpoint, it would still make more sense to run something like a halfling fighter -- then you would get access to assassin and all three fighter PREs. It would also make sense to run a dwarven or WF non-fighter class, because you could get access to SD as well (at an increased cost admittedly). The current and best use for racial PREs that I have seen is to apply Arcane Archer benefits to a ranged class mix while still allowing you to grab other PREs -- the Helves Angel build for example. Under this new method, you can already do this by presumably just selecting three PREs available due to your class split -- Arcane Archer and Tempest from Ranger, and Kensai from Fighter. No half-elf or elf race required. Again, halfling would work because it would grant access to the Assassin tree.

Just something else to think about -- I'm sure there is plenty we don't know and that that I haven't thought about. Thanks again for letting the community have some design input.

It looks like you limited to 3 PRE trees with points in them, so if all your points are going into the 3 fighter trees then what your racial tree is is irrelevant. If your picking up side abilities in your racial PRE tree then another race might be better... there is nothing wrong with that imho.

Edit: also the racial PRE won't be tied to a class level and so If you multi class you will still be able to get it to t3... 14 paladin 6 fighter with DoS tree (to a certain point), DS tree (full), one other tree (to a certain point) is how I think it will work.

[MadFloyd]

Looks pretty good. Also wondering how you're planning on dealing with non-PrE related enhancements like caster dmg lines, etc. and whether it'll lock you out of other stuff if you buy them in a particular tree.

I note you've ignored the questions on timescales so I'll ask too; any rough idea of when this will hit Lam? I won't hold you to it. (Some will :))

No idea just yet. It will be as early as we can so there's lots of time for tweaking. That said, I have no problem sharing screenshots and info about the various trees as they become known so that we get even more feedback as early as possible.

I can say that it won't come before mid year.

[QuantumFX]

The fact that the most famous character in D&D lore would be an utter gimp in this game is broken

Actually, it makes an argument that DDO has been following the spirit of D&D. He’s an utter gimp in P&P as well.


No idea just yet. It will be as early as we can so there's lots of time for tweaking. That said, I have no problem sharing screenshots and info about the various trees as they become known so that we get even more feedback as early as possible.

I can say that it won't come before mid year.

No.


SOON™

Yes.

[Havok.cry]

Actually, it makes an argument that DDO has been following the spirit of D&D. He’s an utter gimp in P&P as well.

He is an utter gimp anywhere people forget to include the effects of his (not rare enough) disease: maincharacteritis

[zeonardo]

Halfling assassin druid
Horc ravager druid
Dwarf/WF SD druid
Drow tempest druid
Human Palemaster druid
Elf arcane archer deepwoodsniper named druid (so it fits in my list)
Helf AoV Druid

Tiefling assassin druid
Tiefling ravager druid
Tiefling/Tiefling SD druid
Tiefling tempest druid
Tiefling Palemaster druid
Tiefling arcane archer deepwoodsniper named druid (so it fits in my list)
Tiefling AoV Druid

[MadFloyd]

Having just checked out the mockup interface, my first thought was: "oh my, that's a rather wide UI".
I guess we know now why the "Let's Talk: Screen Resolution" topic was brought up. ;)

Glad you mentioned this. Not everyone will be able to see 4 panels. The UI will be somewhat modular. For example, you may be able to fit only RACE + 2 classes, in which case you'll be able to shift the UI left/right (where if you go to the right you'll see all 3 classes and not the race tree).

[Havok.cry]

Glad you mentioned this. Not everyone will be able to see 4 panels. The UI will be somewhat modular. For example, you may be able to fit only RACE + 2 classes, in which case you'll be able to shift the UI left/right (where if you go to the right you'll see all 3 classes and not the race tree).

Thank you for considering this before putting it out there :) good work. Also I need to requisition more rep to pass out. Any chance that limit could be increased? sorry for the off topic lol.

[sirgog]

Where will effects that modify core class abilities go?

For example, the various enhancements that boost Ranger Favored Enemy damage (useful to both PrEs), Bard Extra Song, etc?

Or will these effects disappear, be made baseline for the classes, rolled into more than one PrE, or just assigned to whichever tree you feel they fit best?

[MrFestive]

It looks like you limited to 3 PRE trees with points in them, so if all your points are going into the 3 firghter trees then what your racial tree is is irrelevant. If your picking up side abilities in your racial PRE tree then another race might be better... there is nothing wrong with that imho.

I interpreted their diagram to mean that I could select three class based trees (dependent on my class mix) and one racial tree to apply points to. If that's not the case, then it does change my argument somewhat.

I do agree that what I'm bringing up isn't game breaking one way or the other. I'm sure role players or newbies will still pick dwarven fighter SDs and elven ranger AAs, but it does kind of invalidate the racial PRE lines from a gameplay standpoint (which seems strange to me). Why be a dwarven fighter SD if you already get SD cheaper through the SD PRE. I'm assuming you have to purchase the same enhancements for the racial PREs as for the class PREs, but if you were to get racial PRE benefits for "free" due to already spending AP on racial enhancements, then I can see plenty of dwarven Kensai popping up and getting free SD PREs on the side.

Regardless, the whole thing is all speculation at this point -- seems like a lot of new and interesting options are in the works, which is (almost) always a good thing.

[bbqzor]

While there is much I could say, all of it is overshadowed by a single important question:

What kind of time-table are we looking at for this to go live?

Simply put, it is almost pointless to play for character development right now, because these changes rewrite everything.

Take Rogue for example, as I was recently considering doing another TR on mine. I was going to go Half Elf with Artificer Dilettante, to get repeater proficiency for free, and to stack the Versatility Boost with Haste Boost. Hardly a unique concept, many Rogues follow similar ideas. Currently, I have no idea if a) those enhancements will remain, b) they will maintain their synergy, c) it will be more appealing than other new choices.

Or, in other words, I may grind out ~4.4M xp only to wind up nowhere and facing the prospect of doing it again in order to get a race/class combo I like. And I say doing it again because clearly Racial Enhancements are going to be paramount in the new system, likely even more so than they are now. And using a Lesser Heart doesn't allow a race change.

In short: why bother with a TR at all in the meantime? Anyone working on a 'final build' and not running up past live passives or a completionist is in the same boat. Its almost assuredly misspent time.

We, as a community of paying customers, really deserve to have some kind of idea for a time table here. This vastly affects the value of how we spend our time online, and we should not be punished for ignorance over the details of such a massive retroactive change. Its bad enough that much of what people have done will be devalued, no one wants their build to become less able overnight, but now that the cats out of the bag letting the problem persist is pretty bad form.

Please inform us as best you can so we can try to use our time wisely, perhaps raiding for items or something else which has less chance of being work in the wrong direction. Without knowing otherwise, it makes the prospect of logging in look extremely bleak... as nice as the changes may wind up being, I do not look forward to needing a forced TR for a race change on every character to get them back to an operational peak.

Also, consider adding a race change heart or something to combat this issue (and please don't price it horribly... this is something being more or less forced upon everyone, and while I don't mind paying to maintain performance, we shouldn't have to pay excessively for changes which by your own admission were largely unasked for). Alternatively, adding one and giving every existing character a one time change for free, or pricing them at like 1 TP for a week as a promo, etc would be the best possible PR I could even remember for anything like the scale of change this is going to cause. If you want people to be happy, something along lines like these should be pretty important.

Thanks for taking the time. Cheers.

[Thalmor]

P.S. probably this question is out of the bounds of this thread, but it begs to ask the question: If there are plans to go beyond level 20, does that mean you get more APs to spend on these trees?

I for one believe that there will be a level bump soon, and what better way to incorporate the new enhacement system than after a level bump.

[Mojoronomous]

I'm afraid I have to use my my old-man "Grumpus" racial feat a few times, because in my day we didn't have feat swaps:
Please don't get rid of trainers! I enjoyed this bit of PnP flavor, and would be sad to see it go. Keep them necessary for respecs and leveling at least.
As far as spend points anywhere... please tell me that's "public areas only." It would help confine the bugs to a known strata at the minimum. I can also foresee meta-game efforts like holding back a level to re-fill SP/HP/Ki mid-raid, resetting before a quest and then spending AP to get more levels in SP/HP enhancements as a last-ditch effort to squeeze a little more mileage.
Resetting enhancements (and making a group wait) before every quest also seems to be a behavior that this would encourage. Not sure I like this... some people act like 100 ship buffs are necessary for every single quest already - even something like DQ1 casual at 20th.

Now that that's over with (in the snow uphill both ways at 1200 baud), a few questions:
1) Would racial skill bonuses satisfy pre-reqs? For instance, Elves & Half-elves get racial bonuses to Spot/Search/Listen, WF get Balance, etc: Would these count as meeting the pre-reqs for a PrC that required those skills?

2) Halfling racial PrC = Assassin? Base 3.5 PnP presents them as athletic & opportunistic nomads; 4.0 makes them that and also river-folk; Eberron sets up whole tribes who are all that AND are dinosaur-riding barbarians - like the Marketplace's Barbarian trainer! ;) This points towards ranger/barbarian/rogue PrC's. Acrobat most likely because a staff is very handy - as in, you already have one in your hands because you use it as a walking stick, for pushing a boat, or as an over-sized crop to encourage a recalcitrant mount a dozen times your size.
If Acrobat is "too weak," give Acrobats a stance to swap the Q-staff into TWF or THF modes, with Finesse in THF mode (which is much less complicated than how the weapon behaves in PnP).

And a suggestion:
For a schema like this, the 3.5 "substitution levels" would be a rich field for exploring new enhancements and meeting pre-reqs. Under that, a character of a specific race could take a slightly different level in a standard class than other races: Elven Paladins could get "Ranged Smite Evil" rather than standard "Smite Evil", for instance... more things in this vein could be added: Drow Monks could swap out Diamond Soul's SR for "Vulkoor Toughness" or a bonus to Stuns, etc?

Otherwise, I like the big-idea aspects, like "spend 41 points on this side of the tree and you're a Tempest II, in addition to the other perks of the enhancements." It would certainly help to solve issues like the PM's summon tree costs... *shudder* I can also see where this would speed development of new PrC's by making it easier to set the stage for different trees to be combined and make otherwise odd options more viable: Deepwood Sniper + AA + Assassin could be fun (at least in my head).



TL;DR - I like the idea a lot, get off my lawn, Halfling Acrobats would make more sense, and will racial skill bonuses should count towards PrC's?

[Tyrande]

Glad you mentioned this. Not everyone will be able to see 4 panels. The UI will be somewhat modular. For example, you may be able to fit only RACE + 2 classes, in which case you'll be able to shift the UI left/right (where if you go to the right you'll see all 3 classes and not the race tree).

I know for a fact that some UI automation tools have problems reading the objects that are off screen and will fail verification points after accessing the expected versus the object maps. Let's just hope that the testers have both versions to play with.

[Aelonwy]

No idea just yet. It will be as early as we can so there's lots of time for tweaking. That said, I have no problem sharing screenshots and info about the various trees as they become known so that we get even more feedback as early as possible.

I can say that it won't come before mid year.

Unless "No idea just yet." is in answer to his first question....than you still haven't answered the question about what happens to the general class enhancements that were not previously tied to any particular PrE of the class, whether or not they will end up being shared by the new PrE tabs, whether or not they will count for both, whether or not they will lock out same-type enhancements in other tabs. All questions we would like answers to, for several pages of this thread by now.

[ComicRelief]

...Initially, players will have the bottom row of enhancements available to them. As players spend enhancement points within the current tree, additional tiers of enhancements will become available to them. Enhancements will no longer have a “total action points spent” prerequisite, this is replaced by a “total action points spent in this tree” prerequisite, and is defined by the tier the enhancement is on. (5 * [Tier of Enhancement – 1])....

Um, not to be negative or anything, but my own personal opinion of this (without having any other information available as to how it actually might be implemented) is that it would be worse than the current "progress" spending requirements. What if I don't *want* certain enhancements in the tree, but haven't spent enough APs within the tree to get the ones I *do* want? And suppose I'm choosing a little from tree "A" and a little from tree "B"? At least with a "total AP progression", I might have spent enough APs to get the enhancements I do want and bypass some of the ones I don't want.

Honestly, I think any type of "spending" (APs) requirement suc..er, that is, is a bad thing. Unless one were to have a lot more APs available under the new system (which I don't really see happening, but what do I know?) *OR* if the (AP) cost for the enhancement desired counts towards the total APs spent requirement. {That is, if I've only spent 3 APs in a certain tree, but want to take one requiring at least 5 APs, and it happens to cost 3 APs, then I could do so because taking the enhancement would bring my total up to 6 APs spent (and I needed to "only" spend 5). But I don't see this happening, either (but again, what do I know?), because then one would ask "why not just lower the "progress" AP cost in the first place? And they would be right.}

Race/class level requirements (and even certain enhancement prerequisites), I can understand. But "progress" requirements only make PCs "waste" APs on enhancements they *don't* want, just so they can get some enhancements they *do* want. {And maybe that is the intent (pure speculation - I'm not saying it is; I'm not saying it's not).}

{I'd say something about how the current enhancement UI is "OK", but would be better with just some slight changes to how 'related' enhancements are grouped, but I'm sure that would be a moot point.}
;)

[CaptGrim]

ok so the make or break question for me ATM is what about the base class enhancements that don't really fit in a tree or rather fit in all trees?

Things every character may want

Sneak attack damage; limited to the assassin tree? or in all three trees?
Barb power rage?
Arcane elemental damage?
etc.
etc.

Because on a pure 20 build this changes almost nothing besides giving more options. which is great. BUT on a multi class with a 2 fighter splash you may want to take fighter str 1, and haste boost 1.

My understanding from what was presented means that multi class builds must use one of their 3 trees for kensai (as example) to pick up the hopefully low hanging fruit that is haste boost 1 and fgt str 1. Thus leaving them with only 2 trees from their lvl 18 class. Doesn't sound THAT bad yet until you assume that there will be good enhancements you take now that you will not be able to take because some class enhancements are spaced between the 3 trees.

Is this correct?

If it is, then why the limit on 3 PRE trees? Why not allow any number of PrEs? The number of AP available to spend remains the same.

[Aelonwy]

For example, will things like the Kensai/AA still be possible?

I am wondering this as well... with the 41pts spent for the capstone of a PrE, will this mean that the key feature of a capped prestige will be missing such that you might have 3tiers of 2 PrEs under this new system but not the best of either OR fully capped in one and somewhere lower than what tier3 currently is in another?

[sirgog]

Um, not to be negative or anything, but my own personal opinion of this (without having any other information available as to how it actually might be implemented) is that it would be worse than the current "progress" spending requirements. What if I don't *want* certain enhancements in the tree, but haven't spent enough APs within the tree to get the ones I *do* want? And suppose I'm choosing a little from tree "A" and a little from tree "B"? At least with a "total AP progression", I might have spent enough APs to get the enhancements I do want and bypass some of the ones I don't want.

Honestly, I think any type of "spending" (APs) requirement suc..er, that is, is a bad thing. Unless one were to have a lot more APs available under the new system (which I don't really see happening, but what do I know?) *OR* if the (AP) cost for the enhancement desired counts towards the total APs spent requirement. {That is, if I've only spent 3 APs in a certain tree, but want to take one requiring at least 5 APs, and it happens to cost 3 APs, then I could do so because taking the enhancement would bring my total up to 6 APs spent (and I needed to "only" spend 5). But I don't see this happening, either (but again, what do I know?), because then one would ask "why not just lower the "progress" AP cost in the first place? And they would be right.}

Race/class level requirements (and even certain enhancement prerequisites), I can understand. But "progress" requirements only make PCs "waste" APs on enhancements they *don't* want, just so they can get some enhancements they *do* want. {And maybe that is the intent (pure speculation - I'm not saying it is; I'm not saying it's not).}

{I'd say something about how the current enhancement UI is "OK", but would be better with just some slight changes to how 'related' enhancements are grouped, but I'm sure that would be a moot point.}
;)

I'm hoping they'll get rid of some of the utter garbage enhancements.

At the moment, rubbish AP drain enhancements like Extra Smite 4 are prerequisites for some great enhancements like Divine Sacrifice 3. There might be a small amount of this, but we will have to see.

One thing that concerns me a little: With a three-tree limit (plus racial trees), what is going to happen to Sorcs that want to be a bit of a generalist? IMO the optimized Earth Savant has lots of points in Acid, significant investment in Cold, a smattering of points in Fire, one point in Electric (just for their puny Eladar's, it's still a powerful spell), and then maybe points in Repair, Metamagic SP cost reduction: Maximize, and many more.
Will they still be able to do this, or will it be '2 elements, plus general caster stuff' and that locks you out of the other two elements?

[oradafu]

Um, not to be negative or anything, but my own personal opinion of this (without having any other information available as to how it actually might be implemented) is that it would be worse than the current "progress" spending requirements. What if I don't *want* certain enhancements in the tree, but haven't spent enough APs within the tree to get the ones I *do* want? And suppose I'm choosing a little from tree "A" and a little from tree "B"? At least with a "total AP progression", I might have spent enough APs to get the enhancements I do want and bypass some of the ones I don't want.

Honestly, I think any type of "spending" (APs) requirement suc..er, that is, is a bad thing. Unless one were to have a lot more APs available under the new system (which I don't really see happening, but what do I know?) *OR* if the (AP) cost for the enhancement desired counts towards the total APs spent requirement. {That is, if I've only spent 3 APs in a certain tree, but want to take one requiring at least 5 APs, and it happens to cost 3 APs, then I could do so because taking the enhancement would bring my total up to 6 APs spent (and I needed to "only" spend 5). But I don't see this happening, either (but again, what do I know?), because then one would ask "why not just lower the "progress" AP cost in the first place? And they would be right.}

Race/class level requirements (and even certain enhancement prerequisites), I can understand. But "progress" requirements only make PCs "waste" APs on enhancements they *don't* want, just so they can get some enhancements they *do* want. {And maybe that is the intent (pure speculation - I'm not saying it is; I'm not saying it's not).}

{I'd say something about how the current enhancement UI is "OK", but would be better with just some slight changes to how 'related' enhancements are grouped, but I'm sure that would be a moot point.}
;)

This and the lack of a Class tab for generic class enhancements are what my current worries about this new system. You explained in better words than I about my worry about being locked into the Prestige class that you don't want just to get a few generic enhancements. Even if it's not generic enhancements, there's a chance that one Prestige class might contain all or most of the good stuff that it locks out the prestige class you really want, such as currently Assassins get great benefits and Mechanic and Acrobat get fluff.

[Vormaerin]

That is spectacularly backwards.

The reason Drizzt dual-wields is because he's an AD&D Ranger, and the reason for AD&D Rangers to dual-wield is because Aragorn did it... in a book from 1937.

AD&D rangers had NO ability related to dual wielding (or archery) until 2nd edition. They were a kind of fighter-magic user. Dual wielding wasn't a ranger ability until 1989 (entirely coincidentally a year or so after Drizzt came out...).

And Aragorn dual wields on one or two pages of the entire series? Where he's dual wielding a torches against wraiths?

Find me an example of *ANY* D&D or AD&D ranger dual wielding before Drizzt.

The 2e devs say that they just wanted to make rangers more distinct from fighters by giving them the "light fighting/florentine" style and it was entirely coincidental that Drizzt surged to popular the year or prior to the new rules being unveiled. Considering that Drizzt wasn't even a ranger in a lot of the versions published, they are probably right.

But even if the mechanics of ranger dual wielding are just a fun flavor idea, the drizzt phenomenon is significantly responsible for its success.

[Havok.cry]

I'm hoping they'll get rid of some of the utter garbage enhancements.

At the moment, rubbish AP drain enhancements like Extra Smite 4 are prerequisites for some great enhancements like Divine Sacrifice 3. There might be a small amount of this, but we will have to see.

One thing that concerns me a little: With a three-tree limit (plus racial trees), what is going to happen to Sorcs that want to be a bit of a generalist? IMO the optimized Earth Savant has lots of points in Acid, significant investment in Cold, a smattering of points in Fire, one point in Electric (just for their puny Eladar's, it's still a powerful spell), and then maybe points in Repair, Metamagic SP cost reduction: Maximize, and many more.
Will they still be able to do this, or will it be '2 elements, plus general caster stuff' and that locks you out of the other two elements?

As far as I can tell the general enhancements are THE worry over this change. That and drizzt clones.

[maddmatt70]

That's the tree related capstone. Your current Tier 3 is at 30 points (level 18 required).

Tempest, for instance, has the following "granted" abilities currently:


(Insert subject to change disclaimer here.)

I see the tempest 41 action point is slated to give full off hand attack damage which is an increase in dps for tempest. Is it safe to conclude that with the racial prestige enhancements and the additions to the prestige enhancements characters in ddo will likley do more dps. Will current mob and boss hit points also be raised to compensate for this? Will the new content take this extra dps into account?

[mystafyi]

At least this change will spur a massive revenue stream for turbine from all the TR's/GR/LR's every toon will be forced to do.

Then when turbine figures out there is 5-10 OP builds, they will start nerfing , requiring even more tr/gr/lr's.

oh the drama to come will be entertaining.

[Psiandron]

Wow!
Like ***ing WOW!!

I need some time to digest all this. This isn't changing the enhancement UI. This should be, from the info given, probably be the biggest change to the game since f2p.

A lot of really good questions thus far and good to see that several devs are responding with apparent forthrightness. I like the way the proposed new UI looks too. It seems that you guys have really put some thought into this. +1 Turbine.

Again, I would admonish you guys at Turbine to really test the **** out of this. I'm not trying to be a jerk, it's just that this really has potential for breaking the game...completely and utterly.

While I'm sitting here in a puddle of drool, tears and assorted other bodily fluids...
<pulls tower shield over self and peeks out>
Isn't this going to engender some massive power creep? More like power leap really.

[Glenalth]

The trees look fine and I like the method of picking up the prestige enhancement tiers.

The make-or-break is going to come down to what is in each of those little boxes.

[MadFloyd]

the make-or-break is going to come down to what is in each of those little boxes.

qft

[Aelonwy]

As far as I can tell the general enhancements are THE worry over this change.

Yep! Very concerned. Hubby and I have been taking a short break with SWTOR (only because his best friend was soooo desperate to have a real life friend on that game he bought us two months apiece on it) and I can tell you from what little experience I have playing that game that being locked into a particular skill tree tab because of points spent requirements to get access to the next level of benefits/enhancements is irritating, frustrating, aggravating, and makes me want to play DDO instead (except that would be rude and ungrateful, *sigh* six weeks to go.) One of the greatest features of this game is the versitality of character build which greatly depends on those general class enhancements as well as PrE choices. Not being shoe-horned onto one path.

Note: I am on the forums over here because I am definitely more interested in what I consider my main game.

[oradafu]

I see the tempest 41 action point is slated to give full off hand attack damage which is an increase in dps for tempest. Is it safe to conclude that with the racial prestige enhancements and the additions to the prestige enhancements characters in ddo will likley do more dps. Will current mob and boss hit points also be raised to compensate for this? Will the new content take this extra dps into account?

That's another concern I have. Will the Capstones be designed specifically for each Prestige or will players currently have a choice about the capstone? For example, Rogues currently have Deadly Shadow and Cheat Death. Both of those capstones are generic enough that they currently can benefit any of the three prestige classes, even though most pick Deadly Shadows since the self-resurrection removes buffs from the death. As they are right now, themetically, Deadly Shadows could fit into Assassin or Mechanic but not really Acrobat since the bonus is +2 Int, while Cheat Death themetically would fit Mechanic and Acrobat since the bonus is +2 Dex.

Or will there be a separate Prestige class capstone to the pure class capstone?

[ComicRelief]

I'm hoping they'll get rid of some of the utter garbage enhancements....

True, there are some garbage enhancements; but then again, (to paraphrase) "one man's garbage is another man's treasure". A real example would be my current ranger/rogue toon enhancements: I don't see "ranger swamp lore" (or "desert lore", etc.) to be a 'garbage' enhancement, BUT I didn't want to take it, either ('cuz I wanted to spend the AP on something else). But I was still "forced" to take it (as it was the least objectionable choice available) to get the "progress" requirement met for the one I did want.

{Not to mention that it left me 1 AP "short" from taking the one I did want, so I had to wait until I got another rank (of course) to take it...but I wasn't going to mention that.} ;)

No matter how it gets implemented, I will never* like "progress" requirements. Want to limit an enhancements availability? Fine - do it with race/class level requirements and/or enhancement/feat prerequisites.

*Subject to change, but I wouldn't bet on it.
;)

[sephiroth1084]

First, I have to say that the information and spit-balling here from the devs, both the ideas themselves and the degree of feedback from the devs has me feeling a lot better about the state of DDO than I have in a long time. That there's also a push to get our feedback on this stuff early enough to make adjustments really boosts that feeling as well.


Where will effects that modify core class abilities go?

For example, the various enhancements that boost Ranger Favored Enemy damage (useful to both PrEs), Bard Extra Song, etc?

Or will these effects disappear, be made baseline for the classes, rolled into more than one PrE, or just assigned to whichever tree you feel they fit best?
This was actually something I meant to ask in my post a few pages back as well, or that I kind of alluded to.

My assumption, based on what we've seen in the mock-up, is that all class abilities will be tossed into trees where they seem to fit, and we'll be rewarded a little by gaining some bonus abilities by picking those up. No idea where something like FE: Damage would fit, though, which is why I suspect stuff may be duplicated from tree to tree. This begs clarifying.


Please don't get rid of trainers! I enjoyed this bit of PnP flavor, and would be sad to see it go. Keep them necessary for respecs and leveling at least. Agreed. I'd even like the trainers to get a little more personality than they did the last time they were addressed (ie. the ones in the Market got some assistants, finery, etc...), such as each being moved to its own small room somewhere, with class-specific decor. The paladin trainer should be in a temple to the gods along with a cleric and favored soul trainer. The wizard trainer in a magical library. The rogue trainer in a back alley somewhere perhaps. Etc... Not a major issue, but I'd like the game to get a little more flavor pushed into it, as too much of it feels game-y.



2) Halfling racial PrC = Assassin? Base 3.5 PnP presents them as athletic & opportunistic nomads; I'm guessing Assassin was chosen because:


Halflings are innately sneaky (bonus to stealth skills), which Assassin builds off of.
Halflings get the Guile and Cunning abilities, which, while generally roguish, are more in line with the Assassin's extra focus on sneak attack compared to Acrobats and Mechanics
Quarterstaves are generally a Str-based weapon in DDO with a few exceptions, and halflings take a penalty to Str (same reason they don't gain barbarian or ranger PrEs as their favored).

All that said, I'd have picked Assassin for the drow favored PrE, as they are associated with poisons already and have the Int bump.



And a suggestion:
For a schema like this, the 3.5 "substitution levels" would be a rich field for exploring new enhancements and meeting pre-reqs. Under that, a character of a specific race could take a slightly different level in a standard class than other races: Elven Paladins could get "Ranged Smite Evil" rather than standard "Smite Evil", for instance... more things in this vein could be added: Drow Monks could swap out Diamond Soul's SR for "Vulkoor Toughness" or a bonus to Stuns, etc?

I like this idea.

[Havok.cry]

Yep! Very concerned. Hubby and I have been taking a short break with SWTOR (only because his best friend was soooo desperate to have a real life friend on that game he bought us two months apiece on it) and I can tell you from what little experience I have playing that game that being locked into a particular skill tree tab because of points spent requirements to get access to the next level of benefits/enhancements is irritating, frustrating, aggravating, and makes me want to play DDO instead (except that would be rude and ungrateful, *sigh* six weeks to go.) One of the greatest features of this game is the versitality of character build which greatly depends on those general class enhancements as well as PrE choices. Not being shoe-horned onto one path.

Note: I am on the forums over here because I am definitely more interested in what I consider my main game.

My first mmo was WoW, and its that way also. There are alot of reasons I don't play WoW anymore. The biggest is the versatility DDO has in building your character. If I feel like I'm losing that, the game loses its biggest appeal for me.

[FeralKittie]

Enhancements can be reset on a tree-by-tree basis using the “Reset Enhancements” button near the bottom of each pane, which is only available in public areas. This has a platinum cost associated with it based on the number of points currently spent in the tree.
Definitely like this. Not quite the deselect exactly what and as much as you want then turn around and re-spend the points that I was thinking of, but a vast improvement over a total reset. Should make exploring these changes much easier.

Still a bit concerned about where general enhancements will appear, getting locked into a few paths rather than expanding customization possibilities and what not. However, overall, I'm cautiously thrilled.

http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll398/KuriousKat_photos/panel_1-1.jpg http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll398/KuriousKat_photos/Panel_2-1.jpg http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll398/KuriousKat_photos/Panel_3-1.jpg

[Havok.cry]

While he chimed In way earlier, Memnir is missing from this thread. I hope he is reading this thread, and I hope it is giving him some glimmer of hope for DDO.

[Calebro]

All that said, I'd have picked Assassin for the drow favored PrE, as they are associated with poisons already and have the Int bump. ]

As someone else has mentioned, drow are different from FR drow, and are much more tribal. Scorpion Wraith as written (http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/eberron-hok/wikis/scorpion-wraith) is actually a Ranger PrC that gets some roguish abilities. It actually has Wild Empathy class feature as a prerequisite (as well as 8 ranks in knowledge nature*, which doesn't exist in DDO but was not a class skill for rogues). As Scorp Wraith doesn't exist yet, Tempest is the obvious stand-in until it does exist.
Although now that we'll be able to have more than one PrE from the same class base, Assassin does make more sense from a mechanical perspective. Under the previous design of mutually exclusive PrEs, it wouldn't have made sense, but now it does.

*adjustment for PF notwithstanding, the skills were basically the only thing changed from original

[CaptGrim]

My first mmo was WoW, and its that way also. There are alot of reasons I don't play WoW anymore. The biggest is the versatility DDO has in building your character. If I feel like I'm losing that, the game loses its biggest appeal for me.

I agree 100% and i would really like to know if base class abilities are in 1 tree or all three trees?

Also why the limit on 3 class trees? ap will be the limiting factor so there is no real need to create artifical limits of 3 trees when 80 points are all that you'll get.

[Aelonwy]

My first mmo was WoW, and its that way also. There are alot of reasons I don't play WoW anymore. The biggest is the versatility DDO has in building your character. If I feel like I'm losing that, the game loses its biggest appeal for me.

I played WOW with hubby for a one-week trial run. I hated that game. First MMO i ever tried; almost didn't want to give DDO a try because I was so turned off of online gaming by WOW. Got a taste for PC gaming with Icewind Dale, NWN, and Morrowind. The closer an online game comes to some combination of NWN2 and Morrowind the more ecstatic I will be. So far the closest approximation of my dream-game is DDO. I hope they continue to move forward into the versatile character-customization arena that makes altaholics like myself contented, somewhat addicted players.

[azrael4h]

Oh no please not scimitars for tempest! if drow get tempest for racial pre = 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 Drizzt clones running round Eberron!! NNNOOOOOooooooo..... (runs out the room screaming !)

How is this different from the current situation, in which 25% of all characters on at any given time are Drizzt-clones?

[Havok.cry]

I played WOW with hubby for a one-week trial run. I hated that game. First MMO i ever tried; almost didn't want to give DDO a try because I was so turned off of online gaming by WOW. Got a taste for PC gaming with Icewind Dale, NWN, and Morrowind. The closer an online game comes to some combination of NWN2 and Morrowind the more ecstatic I will be. So far the closest approximation of my dream-game is DDO. I hope they continue to move forward into the versatile character-customization arena that makes altaholics like myself contented, somewhat addicted players.

/signed

[Havok.cry]

How is this different from the current situation, in which 25% of all characters on at any given time are Drizzt-clones?

The number will increase dramatically. Does anyone know if the name drizztclone is taken on sarlona? I need a name for my halfling thrower gimp.

[Aeolwind]

AD&D rangers had NO ability related to dual wielding (or archery) until 2nd edition. They were a kind of fighter-magic user. Dual wielding wasn't a ranger ability until 1989 (entirely coincidentally a year or so after Drizzt came out...).

And Aragorn dual wields on one or two pages of the entire series? Where he's dual wielding a torches against wraiths?

Find me an example of *ANY* D&D or AD&D ranger dual wielding before Drizzt.

The 2e devs say that they just wanted to make rangers more distinct from fighters by giving them the "light fighting/florentine" style and it was entirely coincidental that Drizzt surged to popular the year or prior to the new rules being unveiled. Considering that Drizzt wasn't even a ranger in a lot of the versions published, they are probably right.

But even if the mechanics of ranger dual wielding are just a fun flavor idea, the drizzt phenomenon is significantly responsible for its success.

I think legolas was depicted as fighting with 2 weapons, daggers though. I had a dw ranger in 92 when i first started, never even heard of drizzt at that point though.

[Tyrande]

Oh no please not scimitars for tempest! if drow get tempest for racial pre = 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 Drizzt clones running round Eberron!! NNNOOOOOooooooo..... (runs out the room screaming !)

The books about Drizzt were New York Time best sellers list and DDO was full of them when DDO meant Dwarves and Drow Online.

[Tyrande]

The number will increase dramatically. Does anyone know if the name drizztclone is taken on sarlona? I need a name for my halfling thrower gimp.

Don't believe that name is taken yet.

[Missing_Minds]

No idea just yet. It will be as early as we can so there's lots of time for tweaking. That said, I have no problem sharing screenshots and info about the various trees as they become known so that we get even more feedback as early as possible.

I can say that it won't come before mid year.

Shove it onto lama for long play checking before live release, please.

[LeLoric]

No idea just yet. It will be as early as we can so there's lots of time for tweaking. That said, I have no problem sharing screenshots and info about the various trees as they become known so that we get even more feedback as early as possible.

I can say that it won't come before mid year.

Yeah I had a feeling this was going to be one of those things we won't see for quite a while. I appreciate you coming out early and letting us know about the changes.

What does this mean for any kind of more immediate release stuff though. I find it doubtful now that we would see any prestige enhancements released between now and then under the current format. Are we just looking at content releases from now til then?

With changes this big it kinda puts a hold on things for me as far as tr'ing/character building if things are going to be so vastly different in 6-8 months.

[dkyle]

I'm coming to the conclusion that, assuming that all class enhancements are assigned to a PrE pane, the 3 pane limit will put a serious damper on multiclass builds.

Let's take a look at what my Bard, my most heavily multiclassed build, will probably look like. She's a 15 Bard, 3 Rogue, 2 Fighter build. Now, obviously a completed Warchanter line will be a hit to her viability right off the bat. But I've always known to expect that.

That aside, what is she likely to end up with?

First, on the Bard side, I'll assign her main enhancements to the PrEs I think they're likely to end up in:

Warchanter
Inspired Damage
Inspired Attack
Inspired Bravery (but hopefully this will be dropped as a hard prereq, so I won't take it anyway)

Virtuoso
Lasting Song

Spellsinger
Wand/Scroll Mastery
Charisma

Now, for my Rogue splash:

Assassin
Sneak Attack Accuracy
Sneak Attack Damage

Mechanic
Skill Boost

Acrobat
Haste Boost

And finally, my Fighter splash:

Kensai
Strength

Stalwart Defender
Toughness


So, that's 8 enhancement panes just to get what I have now. Furthermore, from the looks of it, Racial PrEs will be far to good to even consider passing up. So that's a ninth pane. Meanwhile, a pure Bard is only choosing between 4 panes.

Is it fair? I can't categorically say it isn't (after all, choices make a game interesting), but I do think it does go too far in penalizing multiclass. Just giving up levels of our primary class is enough. And that's on a build that doesn't even splash for another PrE. With deeper multiclassing, the choice of panes will get even more painful. Even just spending APs on a PrE pane that you aren't seeking the PrE benefits from is a significant cost.

Ultimately, I suspect that my best course of action would be to either go pure, or with a two level Rogue splash for evasion/traps, and rely on the Racial PrE. I believe most 12/6/2 builds would be in a similar position. Go 18 for whatever the 12 class was, choose a race that gets the PrE the 6 splash was for, and pick up the 2 splash.


So, what would I do?

First, get rid of the three pane limit. It's not necessary. There enough limits on multiclassing already. It feels like a UI restriction driving game design, and I don't think that's a good thing. Instead, just add tabs to the top. A tab for Racial General enhancements, plus the Racial PrE. Then, a tab for each class the character has levels in.

Second, make general class enhancement panes. Absolutely core things like stats, toughness, scroll mastery, and monk stances would go there. Any APs spent here would count towards the progression of the PrE pane with the most APs spent on it (in case of tie, prompt the user to choose their primary). The General Class enhancement pane would show up where the Racial pane shows up on the mockup, on each tab.

Third, Racial PrEs sound like they'll be game warpingly powerful. The choice of Race will mean far more than the choice of multiclass split, which is a radical departure from the game as it exists now, and a bad one, in my opinion. Race-Class combo is a less interesting choice than all the myriad possible multiclass combinations. Furthermore, they have the effect of actually discouraging the iconic Race-Class combos they're meant to represent. A Drow Tempest Ranger and Dwarven Stalwart Defender Fighter would likely be foolish unless the AP cost for those Racial PrEs is enormous.

I mentioned this earlier, but I'd like to flesh it out some more:

Instead of the carte blanche, all-or-nothing, racial PrE, add a Racial PrE enhancement line. This line would cost 1 AP per tier, and have 6 tiers, available at character levels 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, and 16. Each tier adds an effective level of the class the PrE belongs to, solely for the purposes of qualifying for that PrE's enhancements. These effective levels would stack with any actual levels of the class, although PrEs would still be limited by character level, not just class level. Furthermore, every Racial PrE would gain a "class level 26" capstone, that would essentially be dedicated to pure 20 builds of the specific race. Choosing to dedicate all class levels, and a racial PrE, to a single PrE is a huge investment, which gives up a lot of other options, so there should be some reward. But not enough to make doing so mandatory, of course.

The result should be that all Dwarves are capable of taking the first tier of SD, no matter their class picks, but if they want to be a full SDIII, they have to take at least 12 levels of fighter. They still get a lot of flexibility to multiclass the rest of those levels. And if a Dwarf wants to be the absolute paragon of a dedicated Stalwart Defender, they should go pure 20 Fighter. All, I think, are interesting build options.

As I said earlier, Elven AAs would get grandfathered in. Instead of providing Ranger levels towards the Ranger PrE, there'd be a true Elven PrE card for AAs that would be different from the Ranger AA PrE, as it is currently. Elves would get Archmage as their conventional Racial PrE, and would choose between Archmage and AA.

[Tyrande]

As far as I can tell the general enhancements are THE worry over this change. That and drizzt clones.

I suspect the general enhancements are going to be rolled into the individual PRE trees to be able to make sense. Also, some feats like ranger favorite enemies and evasion are going to be given feats, not in the tree.

Drizzt clones are not a concern... How many drow fighters/rangers have you seen running across Eberron? Most of the fighters or rangers are either humans, half-orcs or warforged (and dwarves, forgot this) at level 18 to 20 raids. Drow is and was considered to be a pretty gimp race for melee. Even the ranger icon is pretty rare showing in raids nowadays, probably less than 1 in 20.

Most of the dark elves that I have met are caster types.

[Vargouille]

Unless "No idea just yet." is in answer to his first question....than you still haven't answered the question about what happens to the general class enhancements that were not previously tied to any particular PrE of the class, whether or not they will end up being shared by the new PrE tabs, whether or not they will count for both, whether or not they will lock out same-type enhancements in other tabs. All questions we would like answers to, for several pages of this thread by now.

We're still figuring this stuff out. If you have opinions on which way to go, let us know!

[slimkj]

No idea just yet. It will be as early as we can so there's lots of time for tweaking. That said, I have no problem sharing screenshots and info about the various trees as they become known so that we get even more feedback as early as possible.

I can say that it won't come before mid year.
Thanks, appreciated. Looks worth waiting for. Excited about the possibilities this opens up for character building so looking forward to more info.

[Ganak]

Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.


So will each PrC have a true level 20 capstone or is this intended to be the tier 3 that is unlocked?

Love the idea of adding more capstones.


I like what I am hearing overall.

[Quetzacoala]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)

I like the look of these, but it looks to me that it will be very feat intensive to take Tempest as a racial enhancement on a drow due to the necessity of the prerequisite feats and the two weapon fighting line. The only class that I can see handling this is a fighter...

Also, I feel elves need some serious help... they need to have a good reason to be played. I love playing elves, but I simply do not see any benefit that they bring to the table that a half elf does not.

Of course, I have been wrong before, but this is what it looks like to me.