Let's Talk: Enhancements! [Archive] - Page 20 - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

dirtphillips

09-21-2012, 09:50 PM

So, I expect savagery on what I am about to post, but here are some suggestions on filling out the various PrE's. I expect some are imbalanced, but the idea is to add some more variety into the game

Bard:

1 toughness enhancement each for warchanter 2 and 3

Warchanter 2: allow for furious casting (casting bard spells while raged), weapon attack and damage enhancements for chosen proficient weapon. Unlock certain Barb/Fighter enhancements (levels 1-3)

Warchanter 3: Improved Ironskin Chant (DR 10/-), additional weapon attack and damage enhancements for chosen proficient weapon, song of heroism grants additional dodge bonus (6% versus 4% normally), Unlock certain Barb/Fighter enhancements (levels 4-7)

Unique Warchanter capstone: uncanny dodge plus something else? Not sure here.

Cleric:

2 toughness enhnancements

Radiant Servant: 3rd tier – make aura transferrable to target as the FVS aura is now transferrable. Half the duration and make the casting time as FVS naming champion. Maybe restrict aura to good aligned characters or maybe grant bonuses to aura if given to paladin.

Add Warpriest PrE;

Prerequisites: Toughness and one of Power Attack/Weapon Focus/Shield Mastery

Tier 1: access to DM enhancements (later and weaker than paladin), expend turn undead for combat feat bonuses or defensive bonuses (AC, balance, concentration, etc.), 1 STR enhancement

Tier 2: FVS style attack spell enhancement, tier 1 Kensai weapon enhancements for signature weapon (include feat Prerequisites for this tier), synergy for monk for a Sacred Fist build to be included in the enhancements. 2nd strength enhancement

Tier 3: Expend Turn Undead for DR 10/evil, Additional Kensai style weapon enhancements, aura of lifeshield, +20 PRR

Paladin

Make DM casting time like zeal/divine favor, have DM scale properly for THF, apply attack and damage bonuses per tier but increase CHA requirements. Have DM, smites, and Divine Sacrifice only work on evil opponents.

More LOH’s or allow recharge timer. Allow devotion items to work on LOH, even if at reduced effectiveness.

Add secondary CON class enhancements (like FVS does with WIS and CHA now).

Improve the Holy Sword spell, allow use on bound to character weapons. Suggest increased price to use and high cost (hp and sp) and allow it to bypass all outsider metal type DR along with holy damage. Duration to be limited, could also include PnP defensive benefits (SR and magic circle against evil). Suggest short duration like divine favor. Also, could increase non-permanent wear on weapon, also limiting its use.

HotD: give lesser, standard and greater undead bane at each tier, allow cleric turn undead enhancement use, Heal Amp 5%/10%/20%, reduced power radiant servant aura at tier 2, slightly improved for tier 3, retain ghost touch weapon and neg. lvl immunities as now. Disruption proc on vorpal for tier 3.

KotC: give lesser, standard and greater outsider "bane" at each tier (add xoirat creatures, IQ nightmares and other extraplanar creatures to this list), have dispel magic/ shattermantle/greater dispel chance procs on hits, depending on KotC tier. Banishing proc on vorpal for tier 3.

Ranger

Add 2 toughness enhancements, 2 more for tempest as tiers are unlocked.

Add better 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spells for rangers. Improved Rams Might, improved version of blur, and attack bonus spells come to mind (self only on all).

Allow Healing over Time spells (or other mechanisms, such as healer’s kits to mimic this effect) to help self healing.

Consolidate FE list, +1 attack and +2 damage per tier

List of favored enemies:

- Beasts (includes Animals and Magical Beasts) [locked out until Ranger level 5]– immunity to knockdown
- Constructs [locked out until Ranger level 5]– immunity to slow spell and stuns
- Dragons [locked out until Ranger level 10]– Improved evasion
- Elementals (elementals/mephitis) – increased stacking elemental resistances (say 3)
- Giants - +5 stacking bonus to balance checks, +1% dodge
- Humanoids (includes Monstrous Humanoids) – SR equal to ranger level plus 5
- Oozes and Plants - +2 stacking damage bonus
- Outsiders (demons, devils, aberrations) – Resilience Feat
- Undead - +5% heal amp
- Vermin [locked out until Ranger level 5]– poison immunity

This adds defensive bonuses depending on FE selected, with better defenses reflecting low priority enemies [eg, Dragon would provide improved evasion, Vermin would provide poison immunity]. Better defensive abilities should be subject to sensible minimum Ranger level (10 for improved evasion, for instance).

Tempest un-nerfed. Improve doublestrike damage or regain old attack speed boost. Probably need to add PRR/Dodge/or other defensive abilities to make them survivable in melee. Also make Tempest specific capstone as it is completely ignored now. Maybe include strength enhancements here.

Deepwood Sniper: fix PrE so that bow can be fired without breaking stealth. Maybe make it a PrE granted feat or something. If this can be done, modify as follows:

Tier 1: Change Sniper’s shot to a stance, leave tier 1 as is, except that the increased damage and threat apply to the target until the sniper is spotted. Make stance incompatible with ANY lateral movement, manyshot, and IPS. Apply ranged precision damage (1d8) to double PBS range and targets who cannot spot the sniper, otherwise follows rules for sneak attack application. Ranged precision damage does not apply during manyshot or IPS. Add faster sneaking enhancements available as rogue of same level.

Tier 2: Improved Sniper’s shot: increase crit threat and crit multiplier by 1 more; add lesser Manyshot stance on independent timer from standard feat, movement to break lesser manyshot stance. Additional ranged precision damage (total 2d8), grant shot on the run as bonus feat.

Tier 3: Greater Sniper’s shot: increase crit threat by 2 more (4 total for all tiers), grant ranged assassinate ability with DC = Dex modifier plus half ranger level on ranged shot (not during Manyshot) where sniper has not been spotted by target (1 min cooldown), Additional ranged precision damage (total 4d8)

Rogue:

Thief Acrobat: Add flat dodge bonuses at each tier (say 3% each tier) [realistically this was supposed to by this PrC’s strength in PnP, they should have the best base dodge], fix tier 2 competence speed bonus, grant lesser uncanny dodge proc on hit (say chance to proc and additional dodge amount is equal to rogue level and the duration would be 5/10/15 seconds for tiers 1/2/3), add saving throw boost enhancements.

Tier 2: add shadow walk as SLA, Add leap of faith style ability (uses uncanny dodge cooldown timer).

Tier 3: Grant more competence speed bonus on attacks (if not possible due to game engine problems, then grant more doublestrike). Grant 100% dodge 10 second clickie with 5 min. cooldown (for when they need to steal something), attacking breaks this clickie. Have the current tier 1 and tier 2 skill enhancements scale up proportionally at tier 3.

Sorcerer:

Eldritch Knight:

Tier 1 Prerequisites: Martial Weapon Proficiency (any); Sorcerer 4; Toughness feat, character level 6

Tier 1: SLA (20 sp): Improved Mage Armor: Armor Bonus of 4+(sorcerer level divided by 4), duration = sorcerer level/2, extendable, SLA Arcane Favor (as Divine Favor), Toughness Enhancement I, Action Boost enhancements: If no action boosts are currently taken, gives 5 boosts of either attack bonus or haste bonus. If character has such boosts selected from class boosts, unlocks EK action boosts that last 1 minute each. Boost tiers tied to sorcerer levels. Boosts have same sp and cooldown penalties as Tenser’s, unlock full BAB SLA at level 9 (as Divine Power without the strength enhancement) with duration as master’s touch.

Tier 2 Prerequisites: Sorcerer 9, total character level 12, Tier 1

Tier 2: Arcane strike enhancements (expend sp of equivalent level spell [ie 10 sp for first level enhancement] for boost to attack and damage. 6 tiers of boosts with attack bonus equal to boost tier and damage bonus equal to tier times 1d4. Boost lasts for 1 second per sorcerer level. Improved Shield Spell SLA (40 sp); Shield Bonus of 2 plus one third sorcerer level; concealment bonus +5% (stacks with any concealment spell), Toughness enhancement 2, Add Artificer level 1-3 weapon spells to spell list.

Tier 3 Prerequisites: Sorcerer 13, character level 18, Tier 2

Tier 3: Add Artificer level 4-5 weapon only spells to spell list, concealment bonus +10% (stacks with any concealment spell), Arcane Guard feat (15sp plus spell sp per proc): Select one spell as a guard. This spell has a 10% chance of activating on a hit that deals damage. Spell can be modified by any applicable metamagic feats.

Wizard:

Spellsword:

Prerequisites Tier 1: Wizard level 5, armor weapon proficiency (light), total character level 6

Tier 1: Passive -10% ASF on all shields and armor. PrE “clickie” that provides Full BAB and +2 Alchemical bonus to strength and constitution, +10 hp false life [does not stack with item], costs 30 sp, lasts wiz level in minutes. +4 to concentration checks, -20 Repair Spellpower,

Channel Spell: create 3 spell slots that can channel any spell that targets a single target. Increases the Save DC by 5, sp cost as normal, spell can be stored in weapon indefinitely, expended on first successful hit.

Tier 2 prereq: Wizard level 9; Tier 1, total character level 12, and one of: Power Attack/Combat Expertise/Shield Mastery

Tier 2: Passive -20% (total) ASF on all shields and armor. PrE clickie upgraded to provide +4 Alchemical bonus to strength and con, +10 PRR, +20 improved false life, 80 sp cost; spellsword spells are harder to dispel (+4 bonus to dispel checks by opponents) and additional benefits depending on qualifying feat:

Power Attack = Damage Boost II Enhancement

Combat Expertise = 3% Dodge bonus

Shield Mastery = DR 2/-, +5 PRR (stacking) +5 Concentration, -2 to DC’s and -20 spell power
-40 Repair Spellpower

Tier 3 Prerequisites: Wizard level 13 and Tier 2, total character level 18

Tier 3: Passive -30% (total) ASF on all shields and armor. PrE clickie final upgrade: +6 Alchemical Bonus to Strength, Dex, and Con, +20 PRR, +30 hp (greater false life), 120 sp cost; spellsword spells are harder to dispel (+8 bonus to dispel checks by opponents) and additional benefits depending on qualifying feat:

Power Attack = 50% more power attack damage bonus, Damage Boost III enhancement

Combat Expertise = 6% Dodge bonus (total)

Shield Mastery = DR 5/-, +10 PRR (stacking) +10 Concentration, -2 to DC’s and -20 spell power
-60 Spellpower

Failedlegend

09-22-2012, 01:58 AM

Ranger

Add better 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spells for rangers. Improved Rams Might, improved version of blur, and attack bonus spells come to mind (self only on all).

Allow Healing over Time spells (or other mechanisms, such as healer’s kits to mimic this effect) to help self healing.

Consolidate FE list, +1 attack and +2 damage per tier

List of favored enemies:

- Beasts (includes Animals and Magical Beasts) [locked out until Ranger level 5]– immunity to knockdown
- Constructs [locked out until Ranger level 5]– immunity to slow spell and stuns
- Dragons [locked out until Ranger level 10]– Improved evasion
- Elementals (elementals/mephitis) – increased stacking elemental resistances (say 3)
- Giants - +5 stacking bonus to balance checks, +1% dodge
- Humanoids (includes Monstrous Humanoids) – SR equal to ranger level plus 5
- Oozes and Plants - +2 stacking damage bonus
- Outsiders (demons, devils, aberrations) – Resilience Feat
- Undead - +5% heal amp
- Vermin [locked out until Ranger level 5]– poison immunity

This adds defensive bonuses depending on FE selected, with better defenses reflecting low priority enemies [eg, Dragon would provide improved evasion, Vermin would provide poison immunity]. Better defensive abilities should be subject to sensible minimum Ranger level (10 for improved evasion, for instance).

Deepwood Sniper: fix PrE so that bow can be fired without breaking stealth. Maybe make it a PrE granted feat or something. If this can be done, modify as follows:

Tier 1: Change Sniper’s shot to a stance, leave tier 1 as is, except that the increased damage and threat apply to the target until the sniper is spotted. Make stance incompatible with ANY lateral movement, manyshot, and IPS. Apply ranged precision damage (1d8) to double PBS range and targets who cannot spot the sniper, otherwise follows rules for sneak attack application. Ranged precision damage does not apply during manyshot or IPS. Add faster sneaking enhancements available as rogue of same level.

Tier 2: Improved Sniper’s shot: increase crit threat and crit multiplier by 1 more; add lesser Manyshot stance on independent timer from standard feat, movement to break lesser manyshot stance. Additional ranged precision damage (total 2d8), grant shot on the run as bonus feat.

Tier 3: Greater Sniper’s shot: increase crit threat by 2 more (4 total for all tiers), grant ranged assassinate ability with DC = Dex modifier plus half ranger level on ranged shot (not during Manyshot) where sniper has not been spotted by target (1 min cooldown), Additional ranged precision damage (total 4d8)

I'll only comment with classes I have experience with so Bard, Cleric and Paladin have been removed also I'm not much of a TWF so I'll ignore the Tempest stuff as well.

- I love the idea of being able to shoot a bow without breaking stealth (assuming your Hide/MS don't fail

- Alot of the abilities conflict you give both SOTR and Improved Sneak Speed but your other abilities require you to stay still...IMO it makes sense that since your sneaking an expert archer could move slowly and keep their shot line up

- I agree with it being exclusive to Manyshot that would be quite OP (not that I would complain it would just get us nerfed even worse)

- yes yes YES to ranged assassinate, frankly I think rogue assassinate should work with anged anyways

- Secondary effects on FE is a great idea

Rogue:

Thief Acrobat: Add flat dodge bonuses at each tier (say 3% each tier) [realistically this was supposed to by this PrC’s strength in PnP, they should have the best base dodge], fix tier 2 competence speed bonus, grant lesser uncanny dodge proc on hit (say chance to proc and additional dodge amount is equal to rogue level and the duration would be 5/10/15 seconds for tiers 1/2/3), add saving throw boost enhancements.

Tier 2: add shadow walk as SLA, Add leap of faith style ability (uses uncanny dodge cooldown timer).

Tier 3: Grant more competence speed bonus on attacks (if not possible due to game engine problems, then grant more doublestrike). Grant 100% dodge 10 second clickie with 5 min. cooldown (for when they need to steal something), attacking breaks this clickie. Have the current tier 1 and tier 2 skill enhancements scale up proportionally at tier 3.

Not much to say about this one speed should be the concept of this PrE as it's pretty much what I want out of the PrE:

- Faster Movement
- Movement Impairment Immunity (ie. FoM)
- Faster Attacks (Either Double Strike or physical speed)
- Dodge(Increased MDB in Light Armor, Dodge %, Reflex Bonuses)
- Acrobatic stuff (Slow Fall, Leap of Faith Type Ability [Pole Vault?])

Shadow-walk seems a little weird though Haste would probably fit better...I'd also like to see a Daze or Enthrall ability either active or on-hit since the secondary role of TA is well to show-off...probably tier 3

Sorcerer:

Eldritch Knight:

Tier 1 Prerequisites: Martial Weapon Proficiency (any); Sorcerer 4; Toughness feat, character level 6

Tier 1: SLA (20 sp): Improved Mage Armor: Armor Bonus of 4+(sorcerer level divided by 4), duration = sorcerer level/2, extendable, SLA Arcane Favor (as Divine Favor), Toughness Enhancement I, Action Boost enhancements: If no action boosts are currently taken, gives 5 boosts of either attack bonus or haste bonus. If character has such boosts selected from class boosts, unlocks EK action boosts that last 1 minute each. Boost tiers tied to sorcerer levels. Boosts have same sp and cooldown penalties as Tenser’s, unlock full BAB SLA at level 9 (as Divine Power without the strength enhancement) with duration as master’s touch.

Tier 2 Prerequisites: Sorcerer 9, total character level 12, Tier 1

Tier 2: Arcane strike enhancements (expend sp of equivalent level spell [ie 10 sp for first level enhancement] for boost to attack and damage. 6 tiers of boosts with attack bonus equal to boost tier and damage bonus equal to tier times 1d4. Boost lasts for 1 second per sorcerer level. Improved Shield Spell SLA (40 sp); Shield Bonus of 2 plus one third sorcerer level; concealment bonus +5% (stacks with any concealment spell), Toughness enhancement 2, Add Artificer level 1-3 weapon spells to spell list.

Tier 3 Prerequisites: Sorcerer 13, character level 18, Tier 2

Tier 3: Add Artificer level 4-5 weapon only spells to spell list, concealment bonus +10% (stacks with any concealment spell), Arcane Guard feat (15sp plus spell sp per proc): Select one spell as a guard. This spell has a 10% chance of activating on a hit that deals damage. Spell can be modified by any applicable metamagic feats.

Honestly I'd rather see Dragon Disciple here for one cause it suits sorceror better and for two because EK is a GREAT example of a PrE that needs to be a Hybrid.

Like this:

Tier 1 Bonus: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Bonus: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
Tier 3 Bonus: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 9
Tier 4 Bonus: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 12
Tier 5 Bonus: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 15
Tier 6 Bonus: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 18
Capstone: Arcane10/Martial10 CL 20

Anyways I digress back to your actual suggestion

- Tenser's IS an arcane Divine power now so need for the SLA
- I like Improved Shield/Armor
- Out of the Arty weapon enhancements of elemental weapons really makes sense, I think something similar to the AA Imbue's would fit better
- The Con-op guard affect makes sense

Wizard:

Spellsword:

Prerequisites Tier 1: Wizard level 5, armor weapon proficiency (light), total character level 6

Tier 1: PrE “clickie” that provides Full BAB and +2 Alchemical bonus to strength and constitution, +10 hp false life [does not stack with item], costs 30 sp, lasts wiz level in minutes, grants -10% ASF on all shields and armor. +4 to concentration checks, -20 Repair Spellpower,

Channel Spell: create 3 spell slots that can channel any spell that targets a single target. Increases the Save DC by 5, sp cost as normal, spell can be stored in weapon indefinitely, expended on first successful hit.

Tier 2 prereq: Wizard level 9; Tier 1, total character level 12, and one of: Power Attack/Combat Expertise/Shield Mastery

Tier 2: PrE clickie upgraded to provide +4 Alchemical bonus to strength and con, +10 PRR, -20% ASF, +20 improved false life, 80 sp cost; spellsword spells are harder to dispel (+4 bonus to dispel checks by opponents) and additional benefits depending on qualifying feat:

Power Attack = Damage Boost II Enhancement

Combat Expertise = 3% Dodge bonus, Provides “Arcane Combat Expertise” stance, which allows spell casting while in CE, same spell limitations.

Shield Mastery = DR 2/-, +5 PRR (stacking) +5 Concentration, -2 to DC’s and -20 spell power
-40 Repair Spellpower

Tier 3 Prerequisites: Wizard level 13 and Tier 2, total character level 18

Tier 3: PrE clickie final upgrade: +6 Alchemical Bonus to Strength, Dex, and Con, +20 PRR, -30% ASF, +30 hp (greater false life), 120 sp cost; spellsword spells are harder to dispel (+8 bonus to dispel checks by opponents) and additional benefits depending on qualifying feat:

Power Attack = 50% more power attack damage bonus, Damage Boost III enhancement

Combat Expertise = 6% Dodge bonus (total)

Shield Mastery = DR 5/-, +10 PRR (stacking) +10 Concentration, -2 to DC’s and -20 spell power
-60 Spellpower

Well to start the last Wiz PrE is Wild Mage but I'll bite cause personally I think it would be really cool If PM was actually made part of the Archmage PrE (bonus DCs not combined...only PM forms and bonus HPs kept) and other schools were given similar additions. Mind you I'd rather see Bladesinger as a Elf Racial PrE but w/e...anyways comments right

- Again Tenser already makes your BAB 20 although the duration IS a bit shorter...also it makes all those alchemical boosts pointless
- The ASF reduction should NOT be a clicky...should be a passive.
- Definitely like the PRR & Concen boosts but Dodge doesn't really suit the PrE
- CE no longer prevents casting it increases cooldown
- Dispel Resist is great but I think Dispel Immunity (including beholders) will actually make it useful the BIGGEST downside to my Arcane Tank is facing anything with an anti-magic, field cone, w/e dispel comes up far less often and has a fairly high DC so +4 won't make much diff
- I like the bonuses to various combat stances
- I'd rather the name Warmage
- Should get Combat Casting instead of just +4 con checks at tier one...same bonus so no mechanical reason just makes sense lore-wise

dirtphillips

09-22-2012, 02:42 PM

- Alot of the abilities conflict you give both SOTR and Improved Sneak Speed but your other abilities require you to stay still...IMO it makes sense that since your sneaking an expert archer could move slowly and keep their shot line up.

I chose to keep the sniper shot still for a power limitation. But since they must sneak up to their "perch", i thought it would make life easier for them by letting them sneak faster. Shot on the Run was basically a gift to them so that they don't suck out loud when they have to run from their perch. Since Ranged Precision is basically a more powerful version of sneak attack, I felt it needed some limiting. Playtesting may reveal this to not be true and so I would not be opposed to allowing the DS to have it if the limiting factor were that the target had not located the DS yet.

Shadow-walk seems a little weird though Haste would probably fit better...I'd also like to see a Daze or Enthrall ability either active or on-hit since the secondary role of TA is well to show-off...probably tier 3

I thought the shadow walk ability fit in the "thief" part of the class name. As the only named thief prestige class, I thought they needed another tool in their box to "gain entry" to certain places with relative ease. I was thinking of the ability as a non-combat ability.

Honestly I'd rather see Dragon Disciple here for one cause it suits sorceror better and for two because EK is a GREAT example of a PrE that needs to be a Hybrid.

Anyways I digress back to your actual suggestion

- Tenser's IS an arcane Divine power now so need for the SLA
- I like Improved Shield/Armor
- Out of the Arty weapon enhancements of elemental weapons really makes sense, I think something similar to the AA Imbue's would fit better
- The Con-op guard affect makes sense

I gave out the full BAB ability as it does not hamper spellcasting abilities in the way that Tenser's does. I also did not provide any other bonuses to the ability beyond that to balance it. In essence, I wanted to retain the original flavor of the 3.5 DMG prestige class. Typically, that character had taken one level of a martial class and then the rest caster levels. So their casting ability was not really impaired, but they were a bit squishy. So the idea here was to provide some better AC (ala Abjurant Champion and the improved Mage Armor spell from spell compendium) and improved concealment, but if they get hit it will hurt, ALOT. So it is a way for a competent caster to melee without gaining the great damage benefits of the Savants. I could see this PrE being able to melee, insta-kill, and CC decently. The MAD of wanting to melee means that his DC's will suffer a bit, though.

I thought about conc opp guard, but I think that's a bit OP.

The two present PrE's, Eldritch Knight and Spellsword, are supposed to represent two different archetypes; EK as an unarmored caster that has decent melee abilities, Spellsword an armored caster.

- The ASF reduction should NOT be a clicky...should be a passive.

Yes, good catch, I agree.

- CE no longer prevents casting it increases cooldown
...
- Definitely like the PRR & Concen boosts but Dodge doesn't really suit the PrE

OK, good point on CE stance, that ability is now not needed. I wanted to keep an option in for a defensive minded light armor fighter. I thought that CE made the most sense as anyone entering this PrE can qualify for the feat with ease. The lightly armored melee these days depends on AC, dodge, and concealment for damage mitigation, so i thought dodge fit there. Since the wizard class does not grant dodge, I thought it would be a nice bonus to throw this build style.

- Again Tenser already makes your BAB 20 although the duration IS a bit shorter...also it makes all those alchemical boosts pointless

This is by design. I wanted the PrE to be able to melee effectively from level 6 on. Also, you'll note that I did not include the DC penalties and cooldown penalties of Tenser's. Those penalties do show up later on as more powerful abilities show up, to prevent cheesy casters from taking the PrE for purely defensive benefit. I think this will be unlikely in practice, but wanted to show the dev's that I had considered that possibility.

- Dispel Resist is great but I think Dispel Immunity (including beholders) will actually make it useful the BIGGEST downside to my Arcane Tank is facing anything with an anti-magic, field cone, w/e dispel comes up far less often and has a fairly high DC so +4 won't make much diff.

I support dispel immunity for the BAB ability. But, in keeping with PnP, I think these characters should continue to fear beholders.

- I'd rather the name Warmage

The Spellsword class from Complete Warrior has the abilities of channeling spells through the weapon and reduced ASF as you level the prestige class and a d8 hit die. Warmage was a d4 base class with light armor casting ability that had essentially a set spell list of nearly all attack spells and no utility spells. That being said, it they want to call it warmage, that's OK with me.

- Should get Combat Casting instead of just +4 con checks at tier one...same bonus so no mechanical reason just makes sense lore-wise

Either way. I just thought it would be easier for the devs to code this than add a bonus feat to the PrE. Plus the bonus scales up, so it needs to be in the class later in some way anyway.

kingfisher

09-23-2012, 03:00 AM

Ranger

Add 2 toughness enhancements, 2 more for tempest as tiers are unlocked.

Add better 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spells for rangers. Improved Rams Might, improved version of blur, and attack bonus spells come to mind (self only on all).

Allow Healing over Time spells (or other mechanisms, such as healer’s kits to mimic this effect) to help self healing.

Consolidate FE list, +1 attack and +2 damage per tier

List of favored enemies:

- Beasts (includes Animals and Magical Beasts) [locked out until Ranger level 5]– immunity to knockdown
- Constructs [locked out until Ranger level 5]– immunity to slow spell and stuns
- Dragons [locked out until Ranger level 10]– Improved evasion
- Elementals (elementals/mephitis) – increased stacking elemental resistances (say 3)
- Giants - +5 stacking bonus to balance checks, +1% dodge
- Humanoids (includes Monstrous Humanoids) – SR equal to ranger level plus 5
- Oozes and Plants - +2 stacking damage bonus
- Outsiders (demons, devils, aberrations) – Resilience Feat
- Undead - +5% heal amp
- Vermin [locked out until Ranger level 5]– poison immunity

This adds defensive bonuses depending on FE selected, with better defenses reflecting low priority enemies [eg, Dragon would provide improved evasion, Vermin would provide poison immunity]. Better defensive abilities should be subject to sensible minimum Ranger level (10 for improved evasion, for instance).

Tempest un-nerfed. Improve doublestrike damage or regain old attack speed boost. Probably need to add PRR/Dodge/or other defensive abilities to make them survivable in melee. Also make Tempest specific capstone as it is completely ignored now. Maybe include strength enhancements here.

the passive favored enemy boosts are an awesome idea

even if you toned down some of the high powered ones like immunity to trip instead of knockdown, change the immunity to poison to a saves bonus, changed imp evasion to a reflex saves bonus they would still be great.

well done

Erekose

09-24-2012, 01:18 AM

Nice work on the GUI

Looking forward to when it is implemented

Cetus

09-24-2012, 03:27 AM

I really wish the devs would provide some information on this. What are your ideas? Whats been done so far? Any complications or dilemmas?

I've been looking forward to this enhancement change even more than the destiny system back when this was announced, and this is still, months and months later, in its infancy.

castles, updated event loot, and epic gh are great and all. But none of that sparks my interest as much as the enhancement revamp does.

Talk to us devs!

Dunklerlindwurm

09-24-2012, 03:49 AM

Scraap

09-24-2012, 07:26 AM

Failedlegend

09-24-2012, 09:10 AM

Fairly minor suggestion before I forget:

Aerenal/elven attack/damage racial lines (and the dwarven axe ones). If those were retooled to work like a stacking version of the arty weapon enhancement buff, so it effectively tacks on a +2 enhancement, including implement bonuses, that'd seem to reflect current minor design points, like arcanum and fluidity, giving elves a bit more of a boost in terms of arcane melee synergy (and dwarves, likely divine).

I'd rather see it actually be useful.

Rank 1: +5% Attack/Damage
Rank 2: +10% Attack/Damage
Rank 3: +15% Attack/Damage, +1 Threat Range
Rank 4: +20% Attack/Damage, +1 Threat Range, +1 Crit Multiplier

possibly have rank 3/4 at only +10% if 20% is OP.

I'd also like to see more signature weapons like Daggers for Assassin or Battlefist (Unarmed) for Warforged.

I really wish the devs would provide some information on this. What are your ideas? Whats been done so far? Any complications or dilemmas?

The most recent dev post we got was from Varg...who if you look at his post seems to be quite annoyed with us...I could be wrong.

Updated enhancements are not almost here. Designs are not final. They'll be released when they are ready.

The recently discussed and discovered UI isn't a sign of any "new" developments, and has likely been accidentally there since Update 14.

The post before this one was ALSO Varg informing us of the original delay of the Enhancements update (which everyone thought was part of the expansion including myself) which by the post above I don't think we'll see until at least the new year

There's no major changes planned to the enhancement system as part of Update 15.

The post before that was again Varg (seems he's be stuck with the job of reading over 10,000 posts) explaining that essentially all enhancements would be reset and there's no way to keep the old enhancement system (which IMO is a no duh, but will suck if the new system..well sucks) this was brought on by the few people still using Crit Rage which may or may not be worked into the Ravager PrE

It's definitely true that you would only be able to select enhancements that are available after the enhancement pass.

It's not definitely true that you would not be able to select critical rage.

Maybe. Maybe.

The one before that was actually Mad Floyd stating that PrEs will not be DDO Store content.

Correct, enhancement modifications are not a premium feature.

Than another post about it being delayed...ED bugs being the cited reason

We are working on it, but it has been pushed back. We have too much destiny cleanup work at the moment to put all the system designers on it.

I figure you got the general idea now...the devs do occasionally respond to the thread but mostly to answer minor questions, aside from the first few dev posts none of them are actual responses to player ideas....that said I'm just going to leave this here (it's a mix of my personal ideas and ideas other made that I really liked, most of which was considered when designing the UI shown at the end)

1. Remove the Tree limit entirely the limited AP and Level gating is enough control (removing the level gating would be a nightmare to balance and would heavily favor 18/1/1 builds) also remove the "AP Spent" Limit...the only limiting factor to taking higher enhancements beyond level gating should be Pre-Reqs whether that be feats, stats or previous enhancements.

2. Only allow 3 of said trees to be chosen as "PrE Bonus Enabled"

3. Add a general tab with stuff like spell damage, monk stance, favored enemy, Stat boosts etc. with the relevant class levels as pre-reqs (ie. Fighter,Barb,etc. X for Mighty Strength X) anything that's part of the "core" class and only stuff directly related to the PrEs should be in the PrE trees (Great examples Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4277561&postcount=3116))

4. Make the general tab have its own points system which is either gained X per character level (similar to how the Arty companion gains AP) or is gained based on which class you take that level with the latter only being necessary if there's a big gap in amount of general enhancements for the different classes.

5. Make Stat boosts into 2 Types: Racial (Which is in your racial tab) and Class (ie. Mighty Strength or Incredible Intelligence..which should be in the general Tab)

6. Add Hybrid PrEs...pre-reqs something likes this (More info Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4360097&postcount=3912))

Tier 1 Bonus: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Bonus: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
Tier 3 Bonus: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 9
Tier 4 Bonus: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 12
Tier 5 Bonus: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 15
Tier 6 Bonus: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 18
Capstone: Arcane10/Martial10 CL 20

This way its still a flexible PrE but if you want the Capstone (which should be equal in power/usefulness as any other Capstone) your locked into those two classes (which depending on the Hybrid PrE could be fairly flexible still like Swiftblade = Arcane+Martial...or could be pretty much locked in like Self-Forged = Mech+Master Maker)

The PrE Tree's themselves would likely contain boosts to both related PrEs/PrE Types to offset the fact that your missing 10 levels in said class as well as a bunch of things to enhance their unique abilities

7. Remove Carbon Copied Racial PrEs and either leave it as-is or add actual racial PrEs

Warforged: Reforged and Juggernaut (Let the player choose to embrace or shed their construct nature...oh and give Juggernaut an overhaul)
Elf: AA and Bladesinger
Dwarf: Dwarven Defender (Make it different than DoS & SD)
Halfing: Talenta Outrider (Dunno if a mount is possible...so just make it a companion)
Human: Steelsky Liberator (Good at fighting Larger Enemies with a focus on Dragons)
Drow: Scorpion Wraith
Half-Orc: Kal'thaan Marcher (This is probably spelled incorrectly)
Half-Elf: Soulbow? and Any Class PrE based on Dilly (Yeah I know this sort of breaks my no Carbon Copy rule but it fits)

8. Add in the favored class system in the form of reducing any Level gating in the favored class (ie. Dwarf = Fighter) by 2. With the caveat that you need at least one level in said class. Note that Half-Elf/Human Have Favored Class: Any so ALL level gating is reduced by 1 for them as opposed to the 2 in 1 class the other races have.

9. Have about 60AP of worthwhile enhancements per PrE Tree

10. Add a variable enhancement line to the Racial tab based on their chosen "Sub-race" (chosen at creation) ie. Dwarves can choose Duergar, Shield Dwarves or Gold Dwarfs

11. Instead of AA (which is an Arcane PrE) Rangers should get the "Beastmaster" PrE which focuses on Animal Companions (similar to Arty dog), tracking skills (ie. can see enemies on minimap,etc.), terrain mastery (gets a different bonus based on terrain type or works similar to Monk "ways" and you get a bonus based on the terrain you choose) than give DWS a much needed boost to make up for the loss of AA.

12. Rename Action points to Augmentation Points as it makes alot more sense :P

13. Merge some enhancements (ie. Trapsmith = +1 DD & OL or Halfling Advantage = Halfling Cunning+Guile)

14. Add more Racial/Signature Weapons (ie. Warforged Unarmed [Battlefist], Assassin Daggers,etc.) and FvS Favored Weapons (Ie. Dwarf D-Axe or Half-Orc Maul)

15. Allow Favored Souls to choose "Cursed Soul" (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Cursed_Soul_%283.5e_Prestige_Class%29) in the same way Monks can chose Balance or Dominion and thus gain a different set of bonus feats

16. Give Clerics Domains.

17. Give us Familiars (Any Arcane Caster), Animal Companions (Ranger), Dinosaurs (Halfling Racial PrE) and finally Palemaster Undead Minions all using the Arty Construct enhancement system.

18. Make more PrEs, Enhancements , Powers,etc. (Ie. Assassin, Ki Gain or Smiting) function with ranged combat most have little to no reason not to (mind you some like "Cleave" make sense not to)

19. Go nuts with Wild Mage...make them powerful but make every time they use their abilities a Russian roulette of randomness, awesomeness and deadliness. Possibilities could include doubling the damage of the fireball or cause the fireball to become of AOE of harmless or even beneficial flowers, summon 2 monsters instead of one or summon 5 tiny useless purple monkeys, cause the user to become a barrel instead of casting whatever they were casting...again I say go nuts...or should I say WILD!!! :P

20. Revamp the mock-up to keep things simple (See Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4368470#post4368470) for more Info)
http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo93/Failedlegend/EnhancementMock-up.jpg

Side-note: It would be cool if there was a checkbox for people with big screens to cause the UI to expand so you see all three (or four with a companion) tabs at once

Unrelated thing I thought of while writing this out...It would be cool to Add in common monsters (aka Trash) that require tactics to take down ie. They can only be damaged from the back so you have to set-up flanking maneuvers to damage them or Their protected from all damage by an aura of fire but a snowball storm,gust of wind, trip, stun, etc. will all the aura cause the be removed in some way allowing them to be damaged. Stuff like that

Failedlegend

09-24-2012, 10:01 AM

Anyways I'd like to go back to Varg's post for a bit and actually respond to it.

Updated enhancements are not almost here. They'll be released when they are ready.

That's does make me sad but at the same time I'd rather you guys take your time and get it right than rush it out just to satisfy people, the enhancements sytem is a HUGE part of this game after all and a bad implementation on the new system could net us another SWG:NGE so take your time guys

Designs are not final.

We understand that Varg but the last time we heard about ANY updates on the actual progress of the system was almost 6 months ago...so thats what were going off of with our feedback and it's what we'll continue to give feedback on until we get new information.

The thing is the community thought from how this thread was presented by Madfloyd that this was a...well..."Let's Talk" thread and it actually started out that way so the idea was solidified so feedback started to flow in (see 10,000+ posts in the 2 official threads and a bunch outside of it) but aside from a suggestion that level gating might be removed so Multi's aren't completely boned by the 3 tree limit there has been no actual responses to feedback since...now the reason that is a problem is because since we have no idea what you guys are planning right now we can't comment on it we can only assume that everything is exactly the same as previously mentioned .

Feedback is a give and take process...you give us your original idea...we take that and give collective feedback on it...you than take that implement what you like than give us your new plans thus allowing to continue giving useful feedback otherwise it's pointless and feels like were yelling at a wall despite assurances. You obviously don't have to reveal everything...hell you don't have to reveal anything just respond to our ideas...tell us what you think about them...what you like what you don't so WE can adjust and come back with OUR new ideas if you;d prefer to do it that way.

The recently discussed and discovered UI isn't a sign of any "new" developments, and has likely been accidentally there since Update 14.

Ah but that was a fun find...too bad it was just a blank UI with nothing to play with

HatsuharuZ

09-24-2012, 10:15 AM

1) Let the UI make long-term planning easier.

2) When buying enhancements with AP, you should get what you pay for. No more increasing costs just to get the same effect as the first tier, please. If a character gets 3 tiers of +1 to a certain stat, let every tier of that enhancements line cost the same as the previous one.

3) More options. More PrEs and possibly some interesting enhancements that are not necessarily tied to one particular tree. The Druid's "Nature's Warden" enhancement line and the Fighter weapon mastery (gives extra damage when using a particular weapon type) lines are good examples of this, as are the faith lines that divine classes get.

Question:

What kind of UI setup could be used as an alternative to the "tree" system that has been discussed for the enhancements UI, should the "trees" prove to be non-viable?

Failedlegend

09-24-2012, 11:10 AM

1) Let the UI make long-term planning easier.

This I think is their main reasoning for doing it

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it.

2) When buying enhancements with AP, you should get what you pay for. No more increasing costs just to get the same effect as the first tier, please. If a character gets 3 tiers of +1 to a certain stat, let every tier of that enhancements line cost the same as the previous one.

I'm pretty sure they mentioned that they plan to do this but I can't find the dev post

3) More options. More PrEs and possibly some interesting enhancements that are not necessarily tied to one particular tree.

This is why I (and many others...but not all) think a general tab for purely "Class" based enhancements is a necessity.

Reason #1: Having only enhancements specific to their respective PrEs ion that PrEs tree will make them feel ALOT more unique.

Reason #2: ALOT of enhancements just do not fit into a single PrE ie. Monk Stances or Spell Power Boosts...hmmm let's break it down.

*WARNING* The following passage contain a large amount of sarcasm *WARNING*

Ninja Spy give's an awesome defensive move and requires you tp be a Dark Monk which brings some wicked DPS and tactical abilities but it's other abilities are focused on sneaking and sneak attack...definately the damage dealer of the 2 existing PrEs...a Striker/Controller if you will

Shintao monk is an odd creature like NS it gets some cool tactical abilities and some defensive benefits and its pre-req Light Monk gives it some awesome self-healing abilities...I'd say the weaker of the two existing PrEs because it's best benefits come from being a light Monk but the DR passing is useful. This one is the hardest to take down more of a Defender/Leader

Henshin Mystic going off of the PnP description seems to focus on the elemental aspect of the Monk as opposed to physical toughness or strength as well as getting a better Stunning Fist and Ki Gen. This one is probably going to be what I like calling the Utility of the 3 PrE system...the PrE that doesn't fall into the Best Defense or Offense but comes with alot of cool abilities.

So looking at that how do the stances measure up

Earth Stance: Easily marked as the defensive one...I'd say Shintao is best with both defensive abilities and self-healing

Air Stance: Speedy Strikes...I'd say it suits Ninja Spy the best due to it's "feel" being light quick but deadly strikes

Fire Stance: Increased Ki Gen/Straight Damage Boost...I'd say Henshin mystic but only because it has the Increase Ki Gen which is a big focus of the Pnp HM

Water Stance: This one doesn't really fit anywhere and we already assigned a stance to all 3 PrEs...guess we can just drop it...no? so who does it go two...which PrE deserves 2 stances? it has defensive boosts so Shintao? it also has increased ki gen so...Henshin Mystic? it has -2 Str..yeah guess NS doesn't need this

So how many people builds did I break there...you knows what easier...Monk general Tab -> Stances. Done

Now Spell Power..well savants are easy..match those elements up

Fire -> Fire Savant
Acid -> Earth Savant
Frost -> Water Savant
Storm -> Wind Savant

Now what about the rest Force & Reconstruct...guess Acolyte of the Skin gets those not for any reason beyond thats whats left

So logically these will be the PrE set-ups (assuming 3 tree system Sorc 20)

Fire Savant -> 1. Fire Savant, 2. Earth or Wind Savant, 3. AotS or Racial
Earth Savant -> 1. Earth Savant, 2. Water or Fire Savant, 3. AotS or Racial
Water Savant -> 1. Water Savant, 2. Earth or Wind Savant, 3. AotS or Racial
Wind Savant -> 1. Wind Savant, 2. Fire or Water Savant, 3. AotS or Racial

oh yeah limited options definitely creates more options...no wait thats stupid...oh well apparently its a thing.

That was easy...wonder what the kill count on builds was...probably not to bad for this...now lets do wizard.

Wild Mage, Palemaster and Archmage

Fire -> uh...fire is wild right boom Wild Mage
Acid -> Acid makes things decay...boom Palemaster
Frost -> Dead things are cold...boom Palemaster
Storm -> storm, wind, air so nature nature = wild wild mage boom

That leave Force and reconstruction...well I didn't give Archmage any elements yet...ok boom Archmage.

There ya go..done...how many people builds did I kill this time.

Again alternatively...Spell Power boosts = general tab no need to pigeonole the elements and the PrEs feel ALOT more unqiue

Shall I continue?

InsanityIsYourFriend

09-24-2012, 03:23 PM

please do this is entertaining

EnjoyTheJourney

09-25-2012, 10:43 AM

I'd like the three tree structure. It's simple to code and to use. It'll get done faster. It'll work better, with less bugs. You won't need to read a flipping wiki page to figure out how it works and how to avoid making big mistakes, especially if a lot of mechanically weak choices get removed. And, one of the better, if not the best, things about slimming down the number of trees can be trimming back (merging and in some cases deleting, perhaps) some of the poor choices in the current system.

The "kitchen sink" suggestions for 10+ enhancement trees are difficult to even look at and they'd be a mess to navigate for all but the slim minority of extremely vocal posters in this and similar threads.

Doom-calling before the three tree system has been tried out is unwarranted.

HatsuharuZ

09-25-2012, 10:44 AM

Please go on, Legend. And could you answer my question while you're at it? :P

Failedlegend

09-25-2012, 11:39 AM

I'd like the three tree structure.

Good for you

It's simple to code and to use.

This is true

It'll get done faster. It'll work better, with less bugs.

There's no evidence to support this...their rebuilding the entire system its going to take a long time regardless of how they make it...they may as well make it right

You won't need to read a flipping wiki page to figure out how it works and how to avoid making big mistakes, especially if a lot of mechanically weak choices get removed.

This isn't the fault of the DnD system this is fault of the devs for making lots of useless spells, feats, races and some would say classes.

If I wanted a simple tree system I'd go play Guild Wars 2 or SWTOR, I play DDO BECAUSE it's so in depth. Also who says what YOU think is a weak choice is a weak choice to others. My Wiz12/Fighter6/Rogue2 tank build is certainly viewed as weak by many by he tears through quests and holds aggro like a champ all without a healer.

What next will they remove the active combat system because it's not simple enough, I was miffed enough when they removed the dice notations from the game..I really fail to see how dumbing down the game is good in anyway

That stuff aside with the enhancement system go through a total revamp I fail to see how a 3 tree system allows them to weed out bad choices more than an free system. Hell If they INSIST on using a cookie cutter 3 tree system (which from Vargs post I'm hoping they've have changed) just add a general tab it will make the PrE tabs actually feel unique and as proven above there's no reasonable way to split up the current enhancements into 3, lastly it wouldn't be as much of a blow to multiclassing.

The "kitchen sink" suggestions for 10+ enhancement trees are difficult to even look at and they'd be a mess to navigate for all but the slim minority of extremely vocal posters in this and similar threads.

What's hard to understand about this?

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo93/Failedlegend/EnhancementMock-up.jpg

Tab 1. The Racial Tab - Has Racial Enhancements and racial PrE...simple http://dsc.sun.com/docs/jscreator/help/2update1/images/bh_checkbox_icon.gif
Tab 2. The General Tab - Has Class Enhancements with a side tab for each class....simple http://dsc.sun.com/docs/jscreator/help/2update1/images/bh_checkbox_icon.gif
Tab 3. The Prestige Tab - Has Prestige Enhancements with a side tab for each PrE....simple http://dsc.sun.com/docs/jscreator/help/2update1/images/bh_checkbox_icon.gif

Doom-calling before the three tree system has been tried out is unwarranted.

Look ETJ I can see the upsides to a 3 tree system but their FAR outweighed by the downsides of a system like this made evident almost EVERY other MMO out there and it's even worse for DDO since it will be a huge hit to multi-classing which IMO is one of the big selling points of this game.

Single-Class 3 PrEs -> 3 Tabs = No Problem
Dual-Class 6 PrEs -> 3 Tabs = 50% Access
Multi-Class 9 PrEs -> 3 Tabs = 33% Access

Dual/Multi-classes are already limited in access to enhancements by class level which makes sense but by arbitrarily cutting off access to 50%/66% of their available enhancements your limiting their access even more. Now I know a dev suggested removing the level gating which I admit some of my characters would drool over but you want to get into something thats hard to balance...also this is more of a boost to 18/1/1 builds than anything else.

Oh also Single-classes currently can have 1 Racial PrE and 1 Class PrE...in the (currently publicly known) new system they can either have 3 Class PrEs or 2 and 1 racial PrE so while Multi's are getting nerfed Singles are getting buffed.

So in short if you play primarily single-classes or light splashes you'll only see buffs if you actually enjoy multi-classing this proposed change is devastating.

Please go on, Legend. And could you answer my question while you're at it? :P

The one about non tree systems...I'm good with trees as long as there's no AP Spent requirement just level gating, feat pre-reqs & applicable enhancement pre-reqs (ie. Mighty Strength 1 -> MS2) as well as no arbitrary limit of 3...hell why 3...why not 2 or 4...why did they choose 3...give me the reasoning.

My idea is fairly clear in the image posted above except for one aspect...it does make sense to limit the amount of PrEs that can be taken so make it so you can only choose 3 or 4 tabs to actually be granted the PrE bonuses in. IOW If I choose Palemaster2 (Wiz12), Dwarven Defender 3 (Dwarf) and Purple Dragon Knight (Fighter6) as my 3 "PrEs" I can still spend points in Wild Mage, Archmage, Stalwart Defender and Kensai I just won't gain the "free" PrE bonuses at 5,10,15,etc.

Again I fail to see whats complicated about it...it's if designed so the "target audience" for the dumbing down can stick to the 3 "chosen PrEs" hell add in a check box that will hide all unchosen PrEs, I'm fine with that just don't arbitrarily limit choice because it makes things "too hard"

Failedlegend

09-25-2012, 12:04 PM

It'll get done faster. It'll work better, with less bugs.

There's no evidence to support this, regardless of what system they go with it's going to take alot of work and time they may as well spend the time making a competent system instead of copying other MMOs.

DDO succeeds BECAUSE it's different I personally don't want it copying the likes of WoW and it's clones.

You won't need to read a flipping wiki page to figure out how it works and how to avoid making big mistakes, especially if a lot of mechanically weak choices get removed.

This isn't the fault of the DnD system this is fault of the devs for making lots of useless spells, feats, races and some would say classes.

If I wanted a simple tree system I'd go play Guild Wars 2 or SWTOR, I play DDO BECAUSE it's so in depth. Also who says what YOU think is a weak choice is a weak choice to others. My Wiz12/Fighter6/Rogue2 tank build is certainly viewed as weak by many by he tears through quests and holds aggro like a champ all without a healer and guess what I'm LOVING it.

What next will they remove the active combat system because it's not simple enough, I was miffed enough when they removed the dice notations from the game..I really fail to see how dumbing down the game is good in anyway

That stuff aside with the enhancement system go through a total revamp I fail to see how a 3 tree system allows them to weed out bad choices more than an free system. Hell If they INSIST on using a cookie cutter 3 tree system just add a general tab it will make the PrE tabs actually feel unique and as proven above there's no reasonable way to split up the current enhancements into 3, lastly it wouldn't be as much of a blow to multiclassing.

The "kitchen sink" suggestions for 10+ enhancement trees are difficult to even look at and they'd be a mess to navigate for all but the slim minority of extremely vocal posters in this and similar threads.

What's hard to understand about this?

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo93/Failedlegend/EnhancementMock-up.jpg

Doom-calling before the three tree system has been tried out is unwarranted.

Why it's fairly obvious of the downsides of a system like this...we can see it in say...almost EVERY other MMO out there and it's even worse for DDO since it will be a huge hit to multi-classing.

Could you answer my question while you're at it? :P

The one about non tree systems...I'm good with trees as long as there's no AP Spent requirement just level gating, feat pre-reqs & applicable enhancement pre-reqs (ie. Mighty Strength 1 -> MS2) as well as no arbitrary limit of 3...hell why 3...why not 2 or 4...why did they choose 3...give me the reasoning.

My idea is fairly clear in the image posted above except for one aspect...it does make sense to limit the amount of PrEs that can be taken so make it so you can only choose 3 or 4 tabs to actually be granted the PrE bonuses in. IOW If I choose Palemaster (Wiz12), Dwarven Defender (Dwarf) and Purple Dragon Knight (Fighter6) as my 3 "PrEs" I can still spend points in Wild Mage, Archmage, Stalwart Defender and Kensai I just won't gain the "free" PrE bonuses at 5,10,15,etc. the limit of 80AP keeps me from taking to much in other tabs but allows ME to make that choice not the system.

Again I fail to see whats complicated about it...it's if designed so the "target audience" for the dumbing down can stick to the 3 "chosen PrEs" hell add in a check box that will hide all unchosen PrEs, I'm fine with that just don't arbitrarily limit choice because it makes things "too hard"

Please go on, Legend.

Heh I didn't actually expect anyone the answer my last line there I more meant "have I proven my point yet" but what the hell I'm bored.

*Warning* Once again this following passage contains much sarcasm *Warning*

hmmmm...which class to do oh rogue I'll do rogue...no wait how about the class I want to love (I love them IN my party just not playing one...which is sad) but just can't Bard...yes I'll do Bards...but don't you fret rogues we'll see you later.

ok so lets breakdown the PrEs first

Warchanter - Ah this is your tough burly bard of course, it can even cast in medium armor. More of a warlord really bonuses to HP, Song have better to-hit/damage and he rages better (weirdly specific PrE bonus) also gains a cool defensive buff which is essentially an AOE Stoneskin

Spellsinger - Essentially your spell caster bonus sp, umd and concen and some cool abilities for yourself and your spellcasting buddies

Virtuoso - Ah the utility PrE of the bards...wicked long songs, extra songs per rest, regernating songs both in the sense that your uses regenerate and a song that regens HP...although the boosts may be considered overkill.

so now the enhancments

extra song..hmm more songs...bam virtuoso

inspired bravery/damage/attack...hmm killing stuff better and helping others do the same....bam warchanter (and WCs supremacy rises even more)

lingering song...well its got the word song you know what that means...bam virtuosos

energy of the music..well only spellsingers need sp right...bam spellsinger

improved spell pen...only SSs cast spells so i guess BAM SS

wand heigtening/mastery....well only SSs use UMD..you know bonunses and all Virts too busy singing and WCs too busy fighting...so yeah BAM SS

Lyric of the song...now you'd think SS BUT it has the word song...so BAM Virt

Lyric of the incredible song...wow this is really easy song again...BAM Virt

Song Magic...again easy it say song...BAM Virt...right??

ok so in conclusion...WC needs more enhancements...like come on only 3...thats boring

Now I think I'd promised Rogue that I'd "help" him split of his enhancements..let's start with the PrEs

Assassin - he stabs ****...from the dark...so he's like sneaky but only when close up...apparently you can't assassinate thing with a bow...people in Stormreach must have special protection against headshots.

Mechanic - well i don't know why I see these guys over in FR there's nothing there to fix...oh well so these guys are the techies of the bunch...tend to hang out in Cannith alot...if it weren't for them xbows would suck even more....auto-xbow for the win...anyways these guys are all skillful and stuff, intelligent little buggers use their smarts and roguish backgroud to target weakpoints in armor getting at the little squishy parts beneath doing extra damage. too bad the artificers have been doing it long...speaking of house c...where be all the gnomes...oh well lets move on

Acrobat - Ah yes our resident gymnist...**** Grayson would be proud these guys move with fast and know how to hit just right to shatter bones and sever arteries using only a bigass stick, they also tend to be a bit tougher than their sneaky or ranged brethren although he's probably not so genius level in the intelligence department..he may even be just as dumb as that stick he's carrying (still smarter than your average citizen of course...being a PC and all...oh house I miss dumping Charisma and Int to 3 :P)

right i was here for a reason wasn't i hmmmmmm...right the rogues wanted me to split up their enhancements...lets do that than

rogue item defense - well the only one of the three that is ever n actual combat would be the acrobat so yeah he can have that...BAM Acrobat

faster sneaking - heh no brainer here ONLY the assassin would ever sneak right I mean it's not like rogues have signature "destiny" or anything that requires this so yeah no brainer - assassin

trap sense - well mechanics do trap stuff...so BAM mechanic

wand heigtening/master - hmmm...this ones a toughie...rogues aren't spellcasters...well I guess mechs like messiung with things they shouldn't touch...so...BAM mechanics

damage boost - hmmmm well this ones a toughie...all rogues deal damge but i guess mechs are too busy tinkering with stuff and as well we all know when you use a ranged weapon your invincible so clearly your OP anyways...so assassins or acrobats...well assassin just outright one hit everything right...no need fdor extra damage....so BAM..Acrobat

haste boost....hmmm well mechs aren't in the greastest shape so their out, assassins need to be slow/stealthy so their out...so BAM acrobat

skill boost...what this isn't already a base mech ability...oh well BAM mech

extra action boost....well since assassins don't have any no need for them to have this...how to decide...well acrobats have 2 action boosts whilst rmechs only have 1...so clearly acors need it more....bam acrobat

sneak attack accuracy/training - no contest only assassin use sneak...right.. thus...BAM assassin

subtle backstabbing - see above...BAM assassin

wrack construct - those are like robots right...so no brainer...Mechs bam

elemental trap lore - well again rogues are very magical but again mechs like messing with stuff they shouldn't...so...BAM mech

So who's builds did I kill today?

EnjoyTheJourney

09-25-2012, 12:34 PM

I'd like the three tree structure.
Good for youMore like, "good for the substantial, or more likely vast majority of players", and not just good for me.

Also, contrary to your implicit assumption, simplicity and depth are quite compatible and "more stuff to think about" is also likely to mean "more mechanically weak choices to wade through." On a related point, if there's 8 or 9 different ways to reach a similar level of mechanical effectiveness, then what's the point of that? Why not just make the system simpler so there are less computational mazes to wade through to figure out what choices are good?

Wrapping up, concluding that "there's no way the system can work well with three, four's the minimum" (or five, or some other arbitrary number) is not proven; making that kind of assertion proves that your mind is made up, and nothing more. And, a key drawback to the efforts of a slim minority to trying to overwrite the planned system is that it's a "win" or "lose" proposition; opportunities to help shape a three tree system are being given away on a gamble that a vocal minority of vets will get their way and the originally planned system will be scrapped. There are plenty of drawbacks to doing that, though, and among them is the opportunity to create an enhancements system that is simple, as bug-free as possible, and actually in the game -- as opposed to it's current state as vaporware.

Failedlegend

09-25-2012, 01:11 PM

More like, "good for the substantial, or more likely vast majority of players", and not just good for me.

I'm still waiting for the proof that a 3 tree sytem (or some other arbitrary number) is somehow going to be less buggy that an non-arbitrarily limited system...they will still have to make the same amount of enhancements you'll just only have access to 3 blocks of them at a time...all that does is limit choice which again is a HUGE part of what makes this game popular...actually I'd say there's 3 things.

1. Multi-classing which the 3 tree system threatens

2. The active combat system - which we've already seen be threatened by various new ranged combat styles forcing us to stay still to work and with needed to stay still to get extra damage as a THF and moving REALLY slow as a S&B type

3. It's DnD w/ House rules of course

So #2 is already highly threatened already..but luckily can mostly be ignored..for now at least...#1 is highly threatened but the currently proposed system (and you have still yet to have given any reason why it's not beyond "it's simple") and the game can't stand on the DnD name alone ESPECIALLY with NWN on the horizon

I ignored the removal of D&D notations, I've ignored the devs insistence and make us stand still or move slowly in combat unfortunately the enhancement system cannot be ignored

Also I find it funny that your calling me a vet....have you seen my characters and build threads....most of them get torn apart by vets and power gamers alike because their not the top 100% cookie cutter builds...and guess what a limited system like this will remove my option to make anything BUT the cookie cutter builds. Thats what I'm fighting against I also tend to fight against ridiculous things like putting lockouts in raids, making permadeath mandatory on some of the servers and other so-called "vet/hardcore requests"...I'm still not sure what your fighting for beyond wanting 'Simple" which in a DnD game is not good. I dunno maybe I'm the only one who gets a Braingasm when the "pieces" I've gathered fit together perfectly despite being taken from different "puzzles"...sure it looks a little weird and you'll have to explain in to most but it still works and hey its alot more fun than that "approved" build.

You also cite that I essentially just keep saying the same thing...which makes sense because I am...because the devs have given us any further feedback so our opinions will of course remain the same unless someone says something actually worthwhile. Which I have yet to have seen, the only position I've seen in here is you saying the 3 tree system is good because "It's simple" and Leslie and her gang claiming that Multi-classing needs to be nerfed.

Oh and you forgot to answer the rest of my post.

Aashrym

09-25-2012, 01:18 PM

I'm still waiting for the proof that a 3 tree sytem (or some other arbitrary number) is somehow going to be less buggy that an non-arbitrarily limited system...

I find it unlikely that adding all the trees will be any less buggy than limiting to 3 trees. Just sayin' :D

Failedlegend

09-25-2012, 01:21 PM

I find it unlikely that adding all the trees will be any less buggy than limiting to 3 trees. Just sayin' :D

Yeah but there no proof that having less trees will mean less bugs...it's still the same amount of enhancements...hell even if there's only one enhancement it has just as much potential for being buggy..so all I was saying is it can't really be used as a + for the 3 tree system.

kingfisher

09-25-2012, 01:44 PM

Also, contrary to your implicit assumption, simplicity and depth are quite compatible and "more stuff to think about" is also likely to mean "more mechanically weak choices to wade through." On a related point, if there's 8 or 9 different ways to reach a similar level of mechanical effectiveness, then what's the point of that? Why not just make the system simpler so there are less computational mazes to wade through to figure out what choices are good?

define weak please? your idea of weak is not the same another player's im sure.

whats the point......really? did you ever even play DnD? this is a DnD game, no way are we gonna let them railroad it into a wow clone just to make people like you who cant navigate the character development portion of the game, sorry.

mechanical level of effectiveness? your talking about what wow and other mmo's do, basic game character design. most of your choices made for you. a tank is a tank is a tank. this is not ddo. go play wow if you want this type of cookie-cutter-all-toons-are-clones-of-each-other-and-only-gear-sets-u-apart-type-of-boring-four-year-old-gameplay.

Failedlegend

09-25-2012, 01:55 PM

define weak please? your idea of weak is not the same another player's im sure.

whats the point......really? did you ever even play DnD? this is a DnD game, no way are we gonna let them railroad it into a wow clone just to make people like you who cant navigate the character development portion of the game, sorry.

mechanical level of effectiveness? your talking about what wow and other mmo's do, basic game character design. most of your choices made for you. a tank is a tank is a tank. this is not ddo. go play wow if you want this type of cookie-cutter-all-toons-are-clones-of-each-other-and-only-gear-sets-u-apart-type-of-boring-four-year-old-gameplay.

Good on yeah King

Let's try this...Tank builds in DDO

Sorc16/Rogue2/Pally2
Wiz12/Fighter6/Rogue2
Paladin18/Fighter2
Paladin20
Fighter18/Pally2
Pally18/Rogue2
Fighter18/Rogue2
Fighter12/Paladin6/Rogue2
Monk12/Fighter6/Pally2
Monk20
Druid13/Fighter7
Rogue13/Fighter6/Druid1
Cleric20
Cleric18/Monk2
Druid20

The list goes on....

Now Tank builds if DDO was a Holy Trinity MMO

Fighter
Paladin

Heh also Clerics would be wearing Robes :P

Yeah your right is much more "simple" why is this a good thing again?

EnjoyTheJourney

09-25-2012, 03:01 PM

define weak please? your idea of weak is not the same another player's im sure.

whats the point......really? did you ever even play DnD? this is a DnD game, no way are we gonna let them railroad it into a wow clone just to make people like you who cant navigate the character development portion of the game, sorry.

mechanical level of effectiveness? your talking about what wow and other mmo's do, basic game character design. most of your choices made for you. a tank is a tank is a tank. this is not ddo. go play wow if you want this type of cookie-cutter-all-toons-are-clones-of-each-other-and-only-gear-sets-u-apart-type-of-boring-four-year-old-gameplay.I' was playing D&D before prestige classes came into existence. I still remember the first member of the group with which I played back then being very excited to play his brand-new Kensai warrior.

Speaking of weak, going ad hominem is a weak way to try to make a point. Another weak way to address an argument is to carry on about how you don't understand the message, that everything is grey, when you probably already have a pretty good sense of what's being said.

Or, at least, you claim to know what I mean in your last paragraph, in which your confusion apparently abated long enough to accuse me of trying to make DDO into WOW.

Straw man much?

Failedlegend

09-25-2012, 03:03 PM

Straw man much?

Funny cause I've still yet to see any stated points as to why simple is a good thing from you other than saying well its simple and you basically saying all other peoples opinions are invalid

EnjoyTheJourney

09-25-2012, 03:11 PM

<False dilemma inserted here>
Your post is one of many made in this thread that shows how off-the-rails the discussion has become.

There have been specific concerns raised about nerfs for multi-class characters. Those concerns are understandable, when not exaggerated in the way your post does, above. But, many -- if not most -- of those concerns that are actually legitimate could be addressed within a three-tree framework, by re-working enhancements and/or by shifting some enhancements to inherent feats that are acquired on level-up, and probably through some other creative and relatively simple changes.

Failedlegend

09-25-2012, 03:21 PM

Your post is one of many made in this thread that shows how off-the-rails the discussion has become.

Telling you that you have yet to make any actually contribution to this thread except telling people their wrong is "off-the-rails"

There have been specific concerns raised about nerfs for multi-class characters. Those concerns are understandable.

I'm glad you actually get that

when not exaggerated in the way your post does, above.

If your referring to my spliting up of the existing enhancements...It's exaggerated on purpose to make a point...also I was having fun...you know that thing people do with games.

Also before you say it I'm well aware that alot of enhancements will like be removed, enhanced or modified with the new system but it would still be the same general dilemma of why did PrE A get that and not PrE B or C. Now with a general tab for all core class enhancements only PrE specific enhancements would be in the PrE trees like this vvv so there wouldn't need to be any debate. As well as having the added bonus of making each PrE feel much more unique

Acrobat
Enhancement Name Cost Progression Class Level Requirement Benefit
Acrobatics 1/1/1/1 3/6/9/12 +1 to Balance, Jump, Tumble
->Showtime 1/1/1/1/1/1/1 1/3/5/7/9/11/13 1 use per tier of "Showtime" (as current Showtime, no boost use)
->->Prime Time 1/1/1 9/11/13 Showtime adds 3/6/10% doublestrike
->->->Grand Finale 3 15 Consume a use of your "Showtime" ability to gain 15% doublestrike and 50% fortification bypass for 8 seconds
->->->->Encore! 1 18 Striking the killing blow on a red- or purple-named monster returns a use of your "Showtime" ability
Tactical Staff 1/1/1/1/1/1 2/6/10/14/18 +1 bonus per tier to all tactics feats with quarterstaff equipped
Staff Training 1/1/1/1/1 2/5/8/11/14 Increase the Enhancement Bonus of your Quarterstaff by +1 per tier
->Staff Fencing 1/1/1/1/1/1 6/8/10/12/14/16 Gain 2% fortification bypass and +1 deflection bonus to AC per tier while using a quarterstaff
->->Defense Staff 1/1/1 9/12/15 5% competence bonus to damage reduction per tier with staff equipped
->Staff Specialization 1/1/1 6/9/12 +2 damage per tier with equipped staff
->->Staff Expertise 1/1/1/1/1 9/11/13/15/17 +2% per tier to glancing blow damage or off-hand proc rate with staves
->->->->Staff Mastery 2/2 15/18 +1 to Staff Critical Threat per tier
->->->->->Staff Impact 2 18 +1 to Staff Critical Multiplier
->Staff Blitz 2 3 Treat Staves as double-weapons
Uncanny Relfexes 1/1/1/1 4/6/8/10 Uncanny Dodge grants additional +1 AC and +1 reflex per tier
->Uncanny Dodger 1/1/1 6/9/12 Uncanny Dodge lasts 10 seconds longer per tier
->->Uncanny Mind 1/1/1 9/11/13 Uncanny Dodge also grants +2 per tier to will saves
->->Uncanny Body 1/1/1 9/11/13 Uncanny dodge also grants +2 per tier to fortitude saves
->->->Uncanny Evasion 3 18 Uncanny Evasion gives the rogue a second chance on a failed reflex save
Nimble Strike 1/1/1/1 3/6/9/12 Add 2 points of your dexterity bonus to sneak attack damage per tier
Slow Fall 3 4 Gain Slow Fall as a monk of equal level
Aerobatics 2 15 +20% movement speed while falling

Granted Benefits:
Tier .5 +10% movement speed
Tier 1 +5% attack speed with Staves +2 uses of uncanny dodge
Tier 1.5 +1 use of uncanny dodge
Tier 2 Immunity to knockdown and slippery surfaces
Tier 2.5 +1 use of uncanny dodge
Tier 3 Full ability bonus to damage with staff as double-weapon, or +15% glancing blow damage and 5% effect proc rate as two-handed
Capstone +2 to dexterity and gain incorporeal miss chance equal to your reflex save

But, many -- if not most -- of those concerns that are actually legitimate could be addressed within a three-tree framework

or they could rebuild the system to work for everything instead of having to force multi-classing to adjust

by re-working enhancements and/or by shifting some enhancements to inherent feats that are acquired on level-up

Congrats your actually making a suggestion now, I don't really agree with it because make it an inherent/auto-granted feat takes away choice...it would still be easier just to add a general tab, but again I commend on actually making a suggestion keep it up

or through some other creative changes.

Yes and thats what I want from you, creative changes you obviously have your own ideas how you want the system to be so share them instead of telling other people who spent lots of time and over 10,000 posts discussing that their wrong and your right...you can't correct someone without giving the correction.

kingfisher

09-25-2012, 04:29 PM

I' was playing D&D before prestige classes came into existence. I still remember the first member of the group with which I played back then being very excited to play his brand-new Kensai warrior.

Speaking of weak, going ad hominem is a weak way to try to make a point. Another weak way to address an argument is to carry on about how you don't understand the message, that everything is grey, when you probably already have a pretty good sense of what's being said.

Or, at least, you claim to know what I mean in your last paragraph, in which your confusion apparently abated long enough to accuse me of trying to make DDO into WOW.

Straw man much?

bah your looney. DnD is about nearly unlimited choices and not about arbitrary limitations for simplicity's sake. simple, streamlined, slimmed down, trimmed back, etc are not words you often hear at a DnD roundtable or in a DDO build discussion. this is on purpose. depth is the goal here. computational mazes are a good thing. it allows uniqueness and flexibility and above all - choice. eliminating the 'bad choices' is a bad thing, and should never be the intent or job of the developers. ever. the players choose. you want simple? be pure, but dont promote simplifying the game because you like simple. this is what most mmo's do, especially wow. this is the opposite of what we have now in DDO's awesome character generation system and nothing, not even the thought of a full pre list in game is a valid reason to change that.

EnjoyTheJourney

09-25-2012, 05:03 PM

...

Yes and thats what I want from you, creative changes you obviously have your own ideas how you want the system to be so share them instead of telling other people who spent lots of time and over 10,000 posts discussing that their wrong and your right...you can't correct someone without giving the correction.
Instead of attacking the basic premise of the model originally proposed (a key focus was obviously on making it relatively simple), you and others who have been railing against three trees could have said "Got it, three trees", and got to work on thinking through how to address possible nerfs to multiclass characters while keeping a (potentially) pleasantly straightforward UI in place. This many months down the road, a *lot* of opportunities to do that constructively have been foregone in favor of a "win or lose" effort to overturn the devs' original design parameters.

At this point, you have a choice. You can continue railing against three -- when you already mentioned that four might work, if I read an earlier post correctly -- or you can shift your focus to having some input into whatever system is most likely to be implemented -- which is very likely to feature three trees, unless we've got a dev post telling us that they've changed their minds.

As for mitigating nerfs, a mixture of enhancement buffs / merges for those enhancements left standing could help. For example, some of the less attractive racial enhancements could open up at certain levels, at no AP cost, with the proviso that not all can be chosen. Some of them can be merged so that even though they're not attractive individually, as a group they might be (ie: "footpad" halflings might get a batch of skill enhancements useful for rogues, for example).

Level-up feats to replace some enhancements could also involve elements of choice, such that not every character choosing a given prestige class looks the same.

Whatever gets done, virtually everybody outside of a slim minority who value complexity as a form of challenge would prefer that the new enhancement system and the related UI isn't a pain to navigate -- which means keeping things simple, and figuring out what's redundant or pointlessly complicated, and what's just there as a pothole that ensnares new and casual players is part of achieving that objective.

Eladrin

09-25-2012, 05:32 PM

Since I posted this in the Lamannia forums, I should repeat it here:

Any idea of when that may be coming around?
The new enhancements system will not be up for some time. We're planning on giving it an extended beta on Lamannia before going live with it - much longer than we traditionally have with our game systems.

Do we have an ETA regarding the enhancement pass? I have 16 characters, 12 of which were rendered non playable due to xpac changes. I'd like to get them going with the new stuff, but I really need an idea of where things are headed in order to do so.

While I am playing 4 of my characters, this is solely to do TR's for needed past lives and gear farming. I suspect I am not alone here.
Based on some early feedback and our experiences with the Epic Destinies, we pulled the enhancements system back to spend a lot more time on it. Several members of the System team are splitting their time between bugfixing and enhancements.

You should have ample warning before it goes live. I'd recommend you play your characters and not worry too much about how the enhancements will change, it won't be before the end of this year. (I can't give details on exactly when it'll land, though.)

Lyria

09-25-2012, 06:23 PM

Single-Class 3 PrEs -> 3 Tabs = No Problem
Dual-Class 6 PrEs -> 3 Tabs = 50% Access
Multi-Class 9 PrEs -> 3 Tabs = 33% Access

I'm curious about this statement, Legend.

Are you suggesting that with the new system, if I were to go (say) 18 wiz / 2 rogue I should get potentially full access to Pale Master, Archmage, AND Wild Mage (assuming they add that one)?

Using the current system, for instance, I could take both Pale Master-1 (necro focus) and Archmage-1 (same necro focus) and get the benefits of both?

Have they said they're doing away with the "only one prestige class per class" thing?

If that's the case, it seems like the prestige classes would have to be weakened substantially to prevent someone from going nuts on them. I mean heck, a pale master could spend an extra 8pts on just the archmage +mana tiers and have +400 mana. Or spend 10 and have +2 DCs and +275 mana instead.

That seems like a no-brainer choice to me. Yeah, I'd have to sacrifice a few things elsewhere, but for extra spell DCs and a ton more mana? Heck yeah...

Failedlegend

09-25-2012, 06:35 PM

At this point, you have a choice. You can continue railing against three -- when you already mentioned that four might work, if I read an earlier post correctly -- or you can shift your focus to having some input into whatever system is most likely to be implemented -- which is very likely to feature three trees, unless we've got a dev post telling us that they've changed their minds.

Ok look I'll make as simple as possible. I want 1 of 2 things either remove the arbitrary 3 tree limit and do something simialr to the image above or move all the "Core" Class enhancements into a general tab with the PrE Tree only having enhancements unique to them. Either one would solve most of the multi-classing issues.

It's not just a 4th tree it's specifically all the Class-Based enhancements for each class (having a side tab for each class you have of course)

So yeah I have 2 main stances one against the 3 tree system and one that compromises with it and I'm ok with either.

There's of course my list of other wants as well but their minor compared to the above although I really do think Hybrid PrEs would be a great addition a the 3 tree system is perfect for it (ie. Cleric PrE + Monk PrE = Sacred Fist PrE)

Tier 1 Bonus: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Bonus: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
Tier 3 Bonus: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 9
Tier 4 Bonus: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 12
Tier 5 Bonus: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 15
Tier 6 Bonus: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 18
Capstone: Arcane10/Martial10 CL 20

sephiroth1084

09-25-2012, 07:13 PM

I'm curious about this statement, Legend.

Are you suggesting that with the new system, if I were to go (say) 18 wiz / 2 rogue I should get potentially full access to Pale Master, Archmage, AND Wild Mage (assuming they add that one)?

Using the current system, for instance, I could take both Pale Master-1 (necro focus) and Archmage-1 (same necro focus) and get the benefits of both?

Have they said they're doing away with the "only one prestige class per class" thing?

If that's the case, it seems like the prestige classes would have to be weakened substantially to prevent someone from going nuts on them. I mean heck, a pale master could spend an extra 8pts on just the archmage +mana tiers and have +400 mana. Or spend 10 and have +2 DCs and +275 mana instead.

That seems like a no-brainer choice to me. Yeah, I'd have to sacrifice a few things elsewhere, but for extra spell DCs and a ton more mana? Heck yeah...
Yes, it was said somewhere in this thread long ago that the restriction of 1 PrE per class would be lifted. That may mean that some PrE abilities get back-loaded a bit, but who knows? It may mean PrEs get redesigned entirely.

Honestly, though, the limiting factor is AP--if you want the highest tiers of your primary PrE, you would have to spend a lot of points in it, leaving you with fewer points to spend on more general abilities and racial features. Personally, I think the system should be fairly open to give us more options for character building. It may take a while to balance correctly, but we have that issue with every change. We're still seeing tweaks here and there to the Epic Destiny system, and I imagine we will continue to see those for the next year, at least.

The three tree limit sucks, and should be done away with. The strength you get from spending a few AP in your splash class is rarely worth losing a chunk of your main class' abilities, but it is a decision factor when multiclassing much of the time. Sure, I could splash 2 rogue on my paladin and just not bother with Haste Boost I, Sneak Attack Training I or something else I found attractive, but it makes the splash less interesting if there were things I really wanted from the 3 paladin trees. If there are enhancements that are worthwhile enough, they will draw AP, thus limiting your choices elsewhere. That's how the system is designed now (for the most part), and should continue to function in that way. Artificially limiting us otherwise does nothing but cut down our options.

Lyria

09-25-2012, 07:28 PM

Yes, it was said somewhere in this thread long ago that the restriction of 1 PrE per class would be lifted. That may mean that some PrE abilities get back-loaded a bit, but who knows? It may mean PrEs get redesigned entirely.

Ah, okay. I didn't read through all 200+ pages. :)

I'd imagine a lot of it would end up getting back-loaded, yeah. Putting too many potent abilities in "tier-1" of a PrC would make it too easy to 'splash' across them and get lots of benefits for relatively cheap. Especially if they're lowering the costs of stuff to make it more like ED.

Honestly, though, the limiting factor is AP--if you want the highest tiers of your primary PrE, you would have to spend a lot of points in it, leaving you with fewer points to spend on more general abilities and racial features. Personally, I think the system should be fairly open to give us more options for character building. It may take a while to balance correctly, but we have that issue with every change. We're still seeing tweaks here and there to the Epic Destiny system, and I imagine we will continue to see those for the next year, at least.

It depends on how much things cost, as well. If they're talking about lowering certain costs (like making the +stat boosts for classes a flat 2/2/2 like EDs rather than the 2/4/6 price they have now) it opens up a lot more points for other things. I'm honestly really keen on seeing how they're set up, and have been since I first heard about the revised enhancement system months ago (which is part of what drew me back to DDO).

The three tree limit sucks, and should be done away with. The strength you get from spending a few AP in your splash class is rarely worth losing a chunk of your main class' abilities, but it is a decision factor when multiclassing much of the time. Sure, I could splash 2 rogue on my paladin and just not bother with Haste Boost I, Sneak Attack Training I or something else I found attractive, but it makes the splash less interesting if there were things I really wanted from the 3 paladin trees. If there are enhancements that are worthwhile enough, they will draw AP, thus limiting your choices elsewhere. That's how the system is designed now (for the most part), and should continue to function in that way. Artificially limiting us otherwise does nothing but cut down our options.

Well, it depends on how things are set up honestly, and how front-loaded a lot of the advantages are. You don't want things TOO wide-open, or it just creates that much more potential for "ultra-minmaxed" characters, and creates a whole new power level that the quests have to deal with. If you open up everything, and a sorcerer (say) can now squeeze out another 2-3 DCs, extra SLAs, and more innate abilities, that makes questing with them even easier. Meaning quests have to be redesigned to deal with this potential new power level.

And that, in turn, raises the bar a bit higher for people who don't minmax that way.

Certain limitations DO need to be in place to keep power-levels at a place that's easily balanced and workable, but without stifling customization. Hence why it's going to take them a lot of time to do. I'm just worried that opening up so many prestige lines for every character is going to cause a spike in power levels, and force people to have to take a lot of things in order to compete with new quests that are geared towards that higher level of power. My wizard is already struggling in FR because she's not TR'd, and even with greater spell-pen and +2 from class the drow are bouncing her spells a LOT.

-Avalon-

09-25-2012, 07:44 PM

Lyria

09-25-2012, 08:02 PM

Mechanic can be gotten as long as the player can get Rogue Improved Trap Sense I, Rogue Skill Boost II, Improved Open Lock II, Improved Disable Device II, and one of the others, then it doesn't matter if he is 1st lvl rogue or 20th...

But...you can't get that as a 2nd level rogue?

Unless they're getting rid of ALL level reqs? So a 1st level character could take Improved <skill> up to 4, or +1 in two stats (2 pts each), or +70 spellpower with a particular school? You could start taking prestige classes as soon as 2nd level?

That seems wildly broken, if that's the case.

Failedlegend

09-25-2012, 08:24 PM

A couple clarifications

The level gating on enhancements are being removed (last time we heard) BUT the level gating for PrE bonuses remain...the rank pre-reqs are as follows

Tier 1: Class Level 3, 5 Points
Tier 2: Class Level 6, 10 Points
Tier 3: Class Level 9, 15 Points
Tier 4: Class Level 12, 20 Points
Tier 5: Class Level 15, 25 Points
Tier 6: Class Level 18, 30 Points
Capstone: Class Level 20, 41 Points

Here's Eladrin's example using Tempest

5 Points Spent: +2 shield bonus when dual wielding
10 Points Spent: Tempest I, +10% off hand attacks, Scimitars are treated as light weapons and can be finessed.
15 Points Spent: +3 shield bonus when dual wielding
20 Points Spent: Tempest II, +10% off hand attacks, Deflect Arrows while dual wielding
15 Points Spent: +4 shield bonus when dual wielding
30 Points Spent: Tempest III, +5% doublestrike when dual wielding
41 Points Spent: Dervish - Full ability score bonus for damage on off hand

-Avalon-

09-25-2012, 08:24 PM

Aashrym

09-25-2012, 08:32 PM

But...you can't get that as a 2nd level rogue?

Unless they're getting rid of ALL level reqs? So a 1st level character could take Improved <skill> up to 4, or +1 in two stats (2 pts each), or +70 spellpower with a particular school? You could start taking prestige classes as soon as 2nd level?

That seems wildly broken, if that's the case.

1 PrE per class is getting lifted, PrE prereq's are getting lifted and the PrE's are free bonuses for spending points in PrE trees under the proposed system.

There was discussion on and interest expressed by dev post that class level prereq's could be lifted and character level prereq's used instead for higher tier access, effectively replacing a lot of low level choices with fewer choices still but access to higher level enhancement that would otherwise be unavailable; I like this idea.

It doesn't bother me one bit to lose access to 25-30 low level enhancements in exchange for 20-25 higher level enhancement that I'll still be spending the same 80 AP on. To me, 80 AP with higher tier enhancements sounds like a better deal than 80 AP restricted to lower tier enhancements.

Some opinions vary, however, and I respect their right to express those opinions (several have :D) so I'm curious on how this monster of a thread influenced the design direction.

Character level would not qualify for PrE free benefits under that last proposal, with the exception of racial PrE's.

EDIT: Also, the PrE free benefits are coming in more tiers with the proposed changes with benefits at 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, and 30 SP spent in a specific PrE tree; spending 41 AP in a single tree gives the capstone so each PrE would have it's own capstone. Class level req's would be required for each PrE tier of free benefits. There will also be a cost structure change so we should actually be able to afford more enhancements over all plus the free benefits.

EnjoyTheJourney

09-25-2012, 08:46 PM

...

Enjoythejourney... sorry, but you seem to not grasp that the basic system that YOU seem to like to describe, is one that would turn DDO into WoW. And *** would they do that?? Every WoW-Clone out there is doing stellar right? I've played WOW and I didn't like it. At all. I like DDO, and it is a completely different game from WOW.

DDO should evolve in a direction that makes sense for DDO, and WOW-mongering has the same effect as other fearmongering -- ie: it's not helpful and not persuasive.

Another thing you miss... most of our current builds would be totally invalidated by your concept. If you only have 4 trees, and one is a must for race, then you only have 3 left. If you dual class (something almost EVERY build does, if not triple class) and you want two PrE's (which is something 99% of dual-class/triple-class builds do), then now you have a quandary... You only have THREE trees, and FOUR trees needed.

Sooo... Take a somewhat typical DPS-Type build: 12 Ranger/6 Fighter/2 Rogue... This guy needs a Tree for each class (3) AND a tree for Kensei AND Tempest... so 5 trees? Plus the Racial, so 6?!? You seem to love that simplicity of the 4 tree system... so let's cut out 2 trees... Which would you cut out? Rogue so he has to either go Human, or take the ranger one, so now Ranger is a locked tree, and cannot be gotten rid of? Fighter tree so he cannot get any form of class-toughness enhancements? Ranger would be dumb to dump... cannot get rid of the bread n butter PrE's...

So we get rid of Fighter Enhancement tree and the Rogue Enhancement tree? BUT OOPS!!! We NEED fighter enhancements to even get INTO kensei... so that won't work... I guess we drop a PrE instead... Kensei goes bye bye... So now, the 12 Ranger-Tempest/6 Fighter-Kensei/2 Rogue (a somewhat typical style build for DPS) is now a 12 Ranger-Tempest/6 Fighter/2 Skill Monkey... the entire build changed, all because we decided to heavily limit the players.You sure made that complicated -- or perhaps it's more accurate to say that the game made it complicated for you to achieve some simple objectives.

On that note, you're still thinking inside a box -- and a very complicated box, at that.

You can have similar levels of power and utility with less complications, depending on how the three proposed trees are organized, enhancement values, how much they cost, and a number of other issues that can be re-visited when enhancements are re-done.

As a minor aside, I mentioned that I like the originally proposed three tree system, rather than four trees.

See, one of the possibilities is so heavily limited as to make the game a WoW-Clone, and the other enhances the possibility of having all sorts of unique combinations... And since DDO is all about MORE options, not LESS... well, you figure it out...DDO isn't, never was, and is never likely to be a "WOW clone." That's ridiculous, given the origins and history of the game.

Again, enough WOW-mongering. Make your case on its own merits.

EnjoyTheJourney

09-25-2012, 09:02 PM

...

EDIT: Also, the PrE free benefits are coming in more tiers with the proposed changes with benefits at 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, and 30 SP spent in a specific PrE tree; spending 41 AP in a single tree gives the capstone so each PrE would have it's own capstone. Class level req's would be required for each PrE tier of free benefits. There will also be a cost structure change so we should actually be able to afford more enhancements over all plus the free benefits.If they ultimately have multiple tabs or PRE enhancement lines that can be chosen, then hopefully we'll also get some kind of "bonus APs" or AP cost discount that can be used within a PRE receiving a lot of investment -- as a reward for staying pure.

PREs were always supposed to be about rewarding specialization -- capstones help with that, but a reward system for specialization that's less binary than "take capstone, don't take capstone" would be helpful, and probably appreciated by many.

Aashrym

09-25-2012, 09:22 PM

If they ultimately have multiple tabs or PRE enhancement lines that can be chosen, then hopefully we'll also get some kind of "bonus APs" or AP cost discount that can be used within a PRE receiving a lot of investment -- as a reward for staying pure.

PREs were always supposed to be about rewarding specialization -- capstones help with that, but a reward system for specialization that's less binary than "take capstone, don't take capstone" would be helpful, and probably appreciated by many.

2 tier III PrE's might be strong too. That's a time will tell moment. On the proposed system a person doesn't even need to remain pure for a capstone because some will be available to racial PrE's even multiclassing. That capstone carrot will apply to select capstones only while the multiclasses and splashes will have access to different select capstones.

It won't just be the capstones anyway, however, based on what info has been provided. It will also be progressively higher PrE tiers beyond just the access to the trees. What fills those captones and higher PrE benefits will be the draw. That could be full of awesome or suck at this point because that's mostly hush hush.

HungarianRhapsody

09-25-2012, 09:48 PM

You should have ample warning before it goes live. I'd recommend you play your characters and not worry too much about how the enhancements will change, it won't be before the end of this year. (I can't give details on exactly when it'll land, though.)

We can't even make the "it will be released shortly after Druids" joke anymore. :)

Failedlegend

09-25-2012, 09:52 PM

We can't even make the "it will be released shortly after Druids" joke anymore. :)

How about shortly after Gnomes than?

-Avalon-

09-25-2012, 10:06 PM

I've played WOW and I didn't like it. At all. I like DDO, and it is a completely different game from WOW.

DDO should evolve in a direction that makes sense for DDO, and WOW-mongering has the same effect as other fearmongering -- ie: it's not helpful and not persuasive.

You sure made that complicated -- or perhaps it's more accurate to say that the game made it complicated for you to achieve some simple objectives.

On that note, you're still thinking inside a box -- and a very complicated box, at that.

You can have similar levels of power and utility with less complications, depending on how the three proposed trees are organized, enhancement values, how much they cost, and a number of other issues that can be re-visited when enhancements are re-done.

As a minor aside, I mentioned that I like the originally proposed three tree system, rather than four trees.

DDO isn't, never was, and is never likely to be a "WOW clone." That's ridiculous, given the origins and history of the game.

Again, enough WOW-mongering. Make your case on its own merits.

Amazing how with 186 words you managed to only say, "You're wrong because I say so"...

If you buy a pet, alter it so it has 4 legs, a shaggy coat, pants a lot, has a snot, etc... can you not say, "Hey that gerbil looks like a dog!"?

If they alter the system to look exactly like WoW's tree system did back before Cataclysm... then... wouldn't that mean they made DDO look more like WoW??? That is not fear-mongering or WoW-mongering... That is blatant obvious truth! If you didn't like WoW's tree system, then why are you championing the current "proposed enhancement system" found in places like ddowiki? It is EXACTLY like WoW's, but instead of getting only 1 pt per level, you get 4, and you get em earlier, and the abilities may cost 2 pts instead of one...

Other than that, you would only have 3 or 4 trees... which means they have to take away a lot of the current available abilities in game, or they have to REALLY dumb things down a lot by combining abilities or something else. If they kept the number of items currently available, each tree would look HORRIBLY complicated. So, to simplify, they would have to either combine stuff, or get rid of stuff...

If they got rid of things, then the whole character-customization of DDO becomes less and less. If they combined stuff, AND since they are reducing costs as well... not sure how you think that would be GOOD. Wizard spends 2 pts and gets +SP on Element, +Crit Chance, AND +Crit Mult, instead of spending 3 pts... that MAY be ok... but there would still be, what, 6 blocks taken up for the elements (at least)... if you counted all the enhancements available and tried to combine them and reduce them, you would still have a LOT of enhancements...

And since you wish to blankly criticize the tabbed system Failed and I propose... What is YOUR system? Give us the benefits of it, list its qualities and how it would keep players able to customize toons as well as they do now WHILE simplifying things (because the tabbed system does, even a Caveman could understand it, why don't you?)... But since you know everything, please, enlighten us... tell us all about the system you champion, and why the devs should pick it, and why the players (majority of them) would prefer your system.

If not, then hey, I understand, being a troll is fun... oh sorry, I meant, criticizing others' ideas without actually having any of your own is easy and fun. But continue to think that we are 'inside the box'... Everything you say sounds like, "I like all the other MMO's and how they do it, and I don't understand anything more complex than that, so don't do it!!!" This is not the other MMO's, DDO is great BECAUSE it allows players to make a character however they want. What you want is "Make a cookie-cutter character and play holy trinity games"... Well, go enjoy one of those. DDO is not that way.

-Avalon-

09-25-2012, 10:07 PM

How about shortly after Gnomes than?

Shortly after Dark Sun/Krynn/Sigil/Greyhawk??

Failedlegend

09-25-2012, 10:16 PM

Shortly after Dark Sun/Krynn/Sigil/Greyhawk??

I think I missed a joke?

-Avalon-

09-25-2012, 10:19 PM

I think I missed a joke?

Yes, people have been complaining and asking for druids, monks, etc for a long time, and as time went on, they finally added all of those things... But, since beginning of game, they also have been bugging Devs to add Forgotten Realms, and all the other worlds/places...

So, now that we have Forgotten Realms, can no longer say something will be added around the time that the FR gets added... Well, how about ANY other world/place? It only took them 6+ years to add FR lol...

Failedlegend

09-25-2012, 10:25 PM

Yes, people have been complaining and asking for druids, monks, etc for a long time, and as time went on, they finally added all of those things... But, since beginning of game, they also have been bugging Devs to add Forgotten Realms, and all the other worlds/places...

So, now that we have Forgotten Realms, can no longer say something will be added around the time that the FR gets added... Well, how about ANY other world/place? It only took them 6+ years to add FR lol...

Ah ok...well I'd really like Dragonlance to come Kender and Tinker Gnomes FTW (they really should have some gnomes in House Cannith) but honestly I don't think we NEED another world we now have 2 and despite FR being one of my least favorite realms (I still love it I just like others better :P) the devs have two entire worlds to work with I don't think they need another one just yet...but if they do add Gnomes they need to be Int based...1e,2e,4e and now 5e all have gnomes as Int-Based...whos idea was it to change it in 3e

Schmoe

09-25-2012, 10:37 PM

Since I posted this in the Lamannia forums, I should repeat it here:

The new enhancements system will not be up for some time. We're planning on giving it an extended beta on Lamannia before going live with it - much longer than we traditionally have with our game systems.

Based on some early feedback and our experiences with the Epic Destinies, we pulled the enhancements system back to spend a lot more time on it. Several members of the System team are splitting their time between bugfixing and enhancements.

You should have ample warning before it goes live. I'd recommend you play your characters and not worry too much about how the enhancements will change, it won't be before the end of this year. (I can't give details on exactly when it'll land, though.)

Thanks for the realistic timeframe and straightforward discussion. It's disappointing, but the open communication helps.

fco-karatekid

09-25-2012, 10:57 PM

Thanks for the realistic timeframe and straightforward discussion. It's disappointing, but the open communication helps.

It does, but even if no communication had occurred - DO take the time... get the enhancements RIGHT... release the system without them being broken.

Phemt81

09-26-2012, 12:08 AM

The new enhancements system will not be up for some time. We're planning on giving it an extended beta on Lamannia before going live with it - much longer than we traditionally have with our game systems.

That seems to be the wisest decision. I Hope lamannians will be given the needed tools to provide a high quality feedback.

I appreciate the update and its content Eladrin.

I also hope 30/40% of the critical bugs will be erased before the enhancements vault goes live, cause we know it could cause different problems on the live servers.

EnjoyTheJourney

09-26-2012, 12:52 AM

Diatribe here.I was fine with the originally proposed enhancement UI and system. I see no reason to propose my own enhancement system. I'd bet that a *lot* of other players would be happy with the simple structure that was a key part of the original proposal, as well, as long as it was fine-tuned so that nerfs could be kept to a minimum and especially if it would be delivered with a relatively small number of bugs that needed to be fixed.

On the subject of bugs, setting up relationships for five or six different different sets of enhancements (or more) generates more opportunities for bugs than if there's just three trees for each character -- unless you believe that as what's being put together get more complicated, programming becomes easier. It's also easier to design new PREs when interactions with all preexisting PREs don't need to be thought through to a particularly deep level -- which is what the "kitchen sink" model of mixing and matching everything would lead to, in the end. Less post-release nerfs is a probable result of a simpler system, as well, in response to players coming up with creative ways to mix and match that the devs feel they need to curtail.

As for the WOW-mongering, you still aren't owning up to what you and multiple others have been doing. You mention a proposed structure of one system that would have a greater resemblance to WOW, one that's part of a large number of in-game systems and rules, ignore the myriad ways that DDO is different from WOW, and extrapolate from that to call DDO a WOW clone. That's a way to try to short circuit having a more meaningful discussion based on the merits of what's being proposed and it's neither legitimate nor persuasive.

Flavilandile

09-26-2012, 03:13 AM

Yes, people have been complaining and asking for druids, monks, etc for a long time, and as time went on, they finally added all of those things... But, since beginning of game, they also have been bugging Devs to add Forgotten Realms, and all the other worlds/places...

So, now that we have Forgotten Realms, can no longer say something will be added around the time that the FR gets added... Well, how about ANY other world/place? It only took them 6+ years to add FR lol...

As long as Atari was holding the D&D License they couldn't add FR to DDO.
Atari had split the license in several parts, and FR was used as the setting for ( mainly ) Single Player games ( Neverwinter Nights and the new Neverwinter [ as it was originally intended ] ).
They gave Eberron to Turbine for the MMO.

So you can't count 6 years to add FR to DDO.
But just the time between when Hasbro/WotC got back the D&D license from Atari and U15. ( which make it more or less a Year to a Year and a half. )

Now it seems that Turbine is more or less free to pick up what setting they want and it's obvious that Faerun is the prefered setting of the majority of the players.

For me the really interesting thing ( outside of DDO and in the computer game world ) at the moment is to see exactly what will be included of Faerun in the upcoming Neverwinter game...

CaptainSpacePony

09-26-2012, 06:05 AM

[QUOTE=Eladrin;4704625]
The new enhancements system will not be up for some time. We're planning on giving it an extended beta on Lamannia before going live with it - much longer than we traditionally have with our game systems.

Based on some early feedback and our experiences with the Epic Destinies, we pulled the enhancements system back to spend a lot more time on it. Several members of the System team are splitting their time between bugfixing and enhancements.

... it won't be before the end of this year.QUOTE]

Dooo00oOmmm33mmm!!11!1

Well actually, that sounds very reasonable to me. Thanks for the update, E.

psteen1

09-26-2012, 08:36 AM

Marewood

09-26-2012, 09:37 AM

...

Based on some early feedback and our experiences with the Epic Destinies, we pulled the enhancements system back to spend a lot more time on it. Several members of the System team are splitting their time between bugfixing and enhancements.

This if VERY good news. Even though I am looking forward to the new enhancement system, which looks very very nice and I'd love to have it sooner rather than later I'd prefer it BUG-FREE and especially WELL-BALANCED.

Furthermore, I would really love to have the EPIC Destinies finished, polished and balanced BEFORE coming up with the new enhancements. In its current state many EDs need crucial bug-fixes (some of which have been reported over and over again but are not even listed under known issues) while other EDs need a hearty boost to make them even worth playing at all.

I think the last thing this game can handle right now is another half-baked system and even less resources to fix the issues of the biggest update to the game ever.

So take your time and do it well and I think we will all be grateful.

Failedlegend

09-26-2012, 11:28 AM

especially WELL-BALANCED.

Actually balanced is boring and tends to make classes feel more and more the same what you want is perfect imbalance. I could write an essay explaining it..but I'm lazy so go watch this extra creditz video...it will at least more interesting than me rambling.

http://extra-credits.net/episodes/perfect-imbalance/

Lyria

09-26-2012, 11:55 AM

bigolbear

09-26-2012, 01:13 PM

Well atleast they recognise that this undertaking could have the potential to realy screw things up - so they have listened there, there taking their time and its going to be on beta for an extended period. good good.

For what its worth im 90% with failed legend on this,

1. drop the 3 tree limit AND/OR
2. seperate the prestige aspects of the enhancements from the generic class enhancements.

Id also be happy with dropping class based lvl gating entirely on enhancements.

A quick summary of my thoughts on an IDEAL enhancement system for DDO:

Each character would have:
heroic enhancements:
1: Adventurer general enhancements (This is for enhancements ANY adventurer might value - in here would go things like toughness, damage boost, sprint boost, and 1 multiple selector for spell power. It would also containg 3 TWIST slots.)
2: Racial enhancements (In here goes every thing for race, including a line of enhancements that will allow you to select a specific prestige tree for your race to occupy one of your prestiges slots)
3: Class 1 general tree. (class lvl gating applies)
4: Class 2 general tree. (class lvl gating applies)
5: Class 3 general tree. (class lvl gating applies)
6: prestige tree slot 1 - Each prestige tree will exist in potentia - and have a list of prerequisites which may include: feats, skill ranks, X lvls of a class, X lvls of a race, currently selected enhanment A, B, C and one of X, Y, Z. etc. There must be a convenient method in game of viewing every prestige tree to see what its prerequisits are. Additonaly prestige trees would have no class based lvl gating - other than posibly X lvls of class to access the tree in the first place.
7: prestige tree slot 2
8: prestige tree slot 3
9. A list of available twists (with an option for show all): Twists would come from enhancements for feats you have purchased, past lives you have obtained, and posibly class/race combinations. Additionaly you may place any enhancement for any class or prestige you have currently selected in a twist slot where upon it is no longer gated by class lvl.

Epic destinies: (link to open the epic destinies window)
As current.

pet enhancements: (link to open All pet enhancements windows)
A simplified single tree system. dealt with seperately from the character - and seperate for each pet.

This system would still be 'tree like' and relatively simple for a new player to understand. It would not require people to invest in prestiges but rather leave them as options, new prestiges - including multiclass ones could be added at a future date. It is extendable, and reasonably future proof, resembles the epic destiny system, is truly customiseable and resembles the pen and paper notion of prestiges better than the current system as access to a prestige is determined by the same critera as pen and paper and is not limited to specific clases.

I beleive this IDEAL system would benefit both pure classes and multiclass in terms of build options and versatility. It would be more than possible for example to create a fighter(20) kensai/tempest. it would also be possible to produce a cleric(19)/fighter(1) kensai, or a sorcer(20) arcane archer - OR... and this is important. A perfectly viable character pure or multiclass with no prestiges at all.

Aashrym

09-26-2012, 03:55 PM

Actually balanced is boring and tends to make classes feel more and more the same what you want is perfect imbalance. I could write an essay explaining it..but I'm lazy so go watch this extra creditz video...it will at least more interesting than me rambling.

http://extra-credits.net/episodes/perfect-imbalance/

I think they missed a key point with learning curve discussing established strategies in a game like chess because rapid updates and new content are capable of keeping the learning curve going longer while the changing environment impacts relative balance regardless of class balance in a vacuum.

In the example of chess it was stated chess hasn't been patched for a long time. It also doesn't receive new content every few months either. The example I would use is the paladin. Paladin offense didn't change much for a long time but the end game environment did and that impacted the class.

Too many options can become problematic in the design process. It becomes harder to evaluate all of the possibilities relative to one another and from where the stacking concern brought up earlier in this thread started.

If I don't control the actual build environment adequately I could be shooting myself in the foot. That's how unintended combinations happens and relative balance or controlled imbalance become out of control followed by additional work, patches, nerfs, or whatnot.

Complete class balance in a game with classes obviously designed with strengths geared towards various assorted and diverse roles isn't a realistic concept in the remotest sense. Relative class balance is what most players are looking for when they state class balance, as in a roughly equal amount of contribution to the party's success at roughly the same rate of contribution AND a sense of accomplishment personal satisfaction that comes with the individual contribution. Perception also matters. ;)

So I think I partially agree on the balance part. :D
I also expanded and clarified some opinions that might not be in agreement. ;)

Artos_Fabril

09-26-2012, 05:03 PM

I agree wholeheartedly with Legend... In fact, I am not certain which of us first started using that concept he has in his picture... I know I mentioned it somewhere, and he popped up that picture, and I pretty much fell in love with it. It is exactly what I described as being the best possible route.
Here's the full post that FailedLegend quoted from:

I think that by massively increasing the cost associated with taking a PrE without increasing the benefits, or at least incorporating other benefits, you're basically proposing an across-the-board nerf to PrEs, both multi-class and pure.

That said, here's an example of what I want to see for Rogue enhancements:

General Tab
Enhancement Name Cost Progression Class Level Requirement Benefit
Faster Sneaking 1/1/1/1/1 1/4/7/10/13 10% faster movement while sneaking
Sneak Attack Training 1/1/1/1/1/1/1 1/4/7/10/13/16/19 +2 Sneak attack Damage per level
Sneak Attack Accuracy 1/1/1/1 2/5/9/14 +1 to-hit to sneak attacks per level
Subtlety 2/2 3/9 Your attacks produce 15% less threat per tier
Device Mastery 2/2/2/2 1/6/11/16 +1 to Disable Device, Open Locks, and UMD per level
Stealth 1/1/1/1 1/6/11/16 +1 to Hide and Move Silently per tier
Haste boost 1/1/1/1/1 1/5/9/13/17 10% haste boost for first tier, 5% each additional tier
Skill Boost 1/1/1/1 1/4/7/10 +2 skill boost first tier, +1 each additional tier
Damage Boost 1/1/1/1/1 1/5/9/13/17 10% damage boost for first tier, 5% each additional tier
Rogue Dexterity 2/2/2/2 1/6/11/16 +1 Dexterity per tier
Wand and Scroll Mastery 1/1/1/1/1 2/5/8/11/14 +15% increase to effectiveness of wands/scrolls/other items that cast spells

The General Tab contains no tier unlocks or benefits, and is class-level gated as noted. The general tab is automatically available with 1 rogue level , Half-Elf Dilettante: Rogue (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Half-Elf_Dilettante:_Rogue), or the rogue active past life feat, Past Life: Sneak of Shadows (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Past_Life:_Sneak_of_Shadows).
Half Elf Diletante: Rogue would count as 1 level of rogue for the purpose of class-level requirements. Dilettante enhancements would increase this level by 1 each. Past Life: Sneak of Shadows would count as 2 levels of rogue for the purpose of class-level requirements. A Half-Elf with Rogue Dilettante, all dilettante enhancements and Sneak of Shadows would count as a level 5 rogue for the purpose of general enhancements, but would not be eligible for any of the PrE trees. These "virtual levels" are added to rogue levels for general enhancements, but not for PrEs.

Acrobat
Enhancement Name Cost Progression Class Level Requirement Benefit
Acrobatics 1/1/1/1 3/6/9/12 +1 to Balance, Jump, Tumble
->Showtime 1/1/1/1/1/1/1 1/3/5/7/9/11/13 1 use per tier of "Showtime" (as current Showtime, no boost use)
->->Prime Time 1/1/1 9/11/13 Showtime adds 3/6/10% doublestrike
->->->Grand Finale 3 15 Consume a use of your "Showtime" ability to gain 15% doublestrike and 50% fortification bypass for 8 seconds
->->->->Encore! 1 18 Striking the killing blow on a red- or purple-named monster returns a use of your "Showtime" ability
Tactical Staff 1/1/1/1/1/1 2/6/10/14/18 +1 bonus per tier to all tactics feats with quarterstaff equipped
Staff Training 1/1/1/1/1 2/5/8/11/14 Increase the Enhancement Bonus of your Quarterstaff by +1 per tier
->Staff Fencing 1/1/1/1/1/1 6/8/10/12/14/16 Gain 2% fortification bypass and +1 deflection bonus to AC per tier while using a quarterstaff
->->Defense Staff 1/1/1 9/12/15 5% competence bonus to damage reduction per tier with staff equipped
->Staff Specialization 1/1/1 6/9/12 +2 damage per tier with equipped staff
->->Staff Expertise 1/1/1/1/1 9/11/13/15/17 +2% per tier to glancing blow damage or off-hand proc rate with staves
->->->->Staff Mastery 2/2 15/18 +1 to Staff Critical Threat per tier
->->->->->Staff Impact 2 18 +1 to Staff Critical Multiplier
->Staff Blitz 2 3 Treat Staves as double-weapons
Uncanny Relfexes 1/1/1/1 4/6/8/10 Uncanny Dodge grants additional +1 AC and +1 reflex per tier
->Uncanny Dodger 1/1/1 6/9/12 Uncanny Dodge lasts 10 seconds longer per tier
->->Uncanny Mind 1/1/1 9/11/13 Uncanny Dodge also grants +2 per tier to will saves
->->Uncanny Body 1/1/1 9/11/13 Uncanny dodge also grants +2 per tier to fortitude saves
->->->Uncanny Evasion 3 18 Uncanny Evasion gives the rogue a second chance on a failed reflex save
Nimble Strike 1/1/1/1 3/6/9/12 Add 2 points of your dexterity bonus to sneak attack damage per tier
Slow Fall 3 4 Gain Slow Fall as a monk of equal level
Aerobatics 2 15 +20% movement speed while falling

Granted Benefits:
Tier .5 +10% movement speed
Tier 1 +5% attack speed with Staves +2 uses of uncanny dodge
Tier 1.5 +1 use of uncanny dodge
Tier 2 Immunity to knockdown and slippery surfaces
Tier 2.5 +1 use of uncanny dodge
Tier 3 Full ability bonus to damage with staff as double-weapon, or +15% glancing blow damage and 5% effect proc rate as two-handed
Capstone +2 to dexterity and gain incorporeal miss chance equal to your reflex save

PrE tiers granted at levels 3/6/9/12/15/18/20, points spent requirement 4/8/16/20/24/31, total of 77 points worth of options. Arrows (->) show dependencies. A character could spent almost all of their points in acrobat enhancements, or just over 1/3rd, and pick up other trees. A character could gain the capstone taking only staff enhancements, no staff enhancements, or some of each. Capstone would either become a stance, or mutually exclusive, in order to prevent a character getting more than 1.

Assassin
Enhancement Name Cost Progression Class Level Requirement Benefit
Stealth 1/1/1/1 3/6/9/12 +1 to hide, move silently, and bluff
->Running Silent 1/1/1/1/1 4/7/10/13/16 1 use per tier of 35% sprint boost, while stealthed only
Assassin's Focus 1/1/1/1/1/1/1 1/3/5/7/9/11/13 1 use per tier of "Assassin's Focus"*
->Assassin's Quickness 1/1/1 9/11/13 Assassin's Focus adds 3/6/10% doublestrike
->->Penetrating Focus 3 15 Consume a use of "Assassin's Focus" to ignore 100% of fortification for 10 seconds
->->->The Big Hit 1 18 A successful Assassinate returns one use of your "Assassin's Focus"
The Subtle Knife 1/1/1 6/12/15 Your attacks cause 10% less threat per tier (stacks with Subtlety)
Serrated Knives 1/1/1/1/1 2/6/10/14/18 Your dagger/kukri criticals reduce enemy AC and fortification by 1% for 10 seconds, 1 stack per tier
Knife Sharpening 1/1/1/1/1 2/5/8/11/14 Increase the Enhancement Bonus or your Dagger or Kukri by +1 per tier
->Razor Edges 1/1/1 8/12/16 +2 damage per tier with equipped daggers and kukris
->->Flashing Blades 1/1/1/1/1 9/11/13/15/17 2% chance per tier to proc a 'Deception' effect on hit
->->->Knife Mastery 2/2 15/18 +1 to critical multiplier with knives on 20/19-20
->->->->Stiletto 2 18 +1 to critical threat range with daggers
Poisoner 2 3 Choose one of three poisons (see current assassin I poisons)
->Concentrated Poisons 1/1/1/1/1 6/9/12/15/18 +1 per tier to the DC of your poisons
->->Cunning Poions 3 12 Add your intelligence modifier to the DC of your poisons
->->->Corrosive Poison 1/1/1 6/12/18 Your poisons deal 2d6 untyped damage per tier to enemies who are immune to poison
->Experienced Poisoner 2 15 Gain Immunity to Poison and Disease
Weighted Dice 2/2/2 2/11/20 Increase the minimum result of your sneak attack dice by 1 per die, per tier

*Assassin's Focus: +2 to hit with sneak attacks, +20 to confirm criticals, bypass 10% of fortification, when attacking from stealth, you have 100% offhand attack chance.
Granted Benefits:
Tier .5 +15% faster movement while sneaking; +2 to Hide, Move Silently, and Fortitude saves
Tier 1 +1d6 sneak attack damage
Tier 1.5 +1d6 sneak attack damage
Tier 2 Assassinate (dex based); +2 to Hide, Move Silently, and Fortitude saves
Tier 2.5 +1d6 sneak attack damage
Tier 3 Vorpal Assassinate; +2 to Hide, Move Silently, and Fortitude saves
Capstone: +2 Dex; +4d6 Sneak Attack Damage

I couldn't come up with as much for Assassin, only 69 points, but then Assassins needed less help, and daggers/kukris are inherently better than staves. You could still get away with taking less than half of the enhancements, and still reach the capstone, or take all of them, with a few points left over for the DPS enhancements in the general tab. No dagger or poison enhancements required to meet the capstone, just barely.

edit: Grabbed the mechanic enhancements back into this poste from here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4278417&postcount=3127) in order to consolidate for linking back to this post.

Mechanic
Enhancement Name Cost Progression Class Level Requirement Benefit
Engineering 1/1/1/1 3/6/9/12 +1 to Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Spot
->Reverse Engineering 1/1/1 6/10/14 +1 to Use Magic Device, +1 crafting level, +2 trap DC
Combat Engineer 1/1/1/1/1/1/1 1/3/5/7/9/11/13 1 use per tier of "Combat Engineer"**
->Demolitionist 1/1/1 9/11/13 While Combat Engineer is active, your traps are emplaced instantly; traps and grenades have a 4% chance per tier to crit for double damage
->->Big Ba-da-boom 3 15 Consume a use of "Combat Engineer" to increase all trap, grenade, and crossbow damage by 50% for 8 seconds
->->->Mass Destruction 1 18 When your score a kill with a grenade, reclaim one use of "Combat Engineer"
Bolt-Ridden 1/1/1/1/1 2/6/10/14/18 Repeater criticals reduce enemy fortification by 2% and fortitude saves by 1 for 10 seconds, 1 stack per tier
Mechanical Aptitude 1/1/1/1/1 4/7/10/13/16 Increase the enhancement bonus of your repeating crossbow by 1 per tier
->Repeater Specialization 1/1/1 8/12/16 +2 damage per tier with your equipped repeater
->->Repeating Repeater 1/1/1/1/1 6/9/12/15/18 Your repeater has a 1% chance per tier to fire a second volley immediately
->->->Repeater Mastery 2/2 15/18 Reduce repeater reload time by 25% per tier (multiplicative stacking with rapid reload)
->->->->Sabot Shots 2 18 +1 to Critical multiplier on vorpal strikes with all crossbows/repeaters
Manual Dexterity 1/1/1/1/1 3/6/9/12/15 Reduces time to open lock or disarm by 20% per tier
->Nimble Mind 3 12 Add your dex bonus to your disable device total
Practiced Eye 1/1/1/1/1 1/3/5/7/9 +1 spot and -20% search time per tier
Monkeywrencher 1/1/1/1 3/8/13/18 +1d6 per tier bane damage to constructs
->Wrack Construct 1/1/1 5/10/15 Wrack Construct I/II/III (as current)
->->Ruin Construct 2 12 Wrack construct stuns on crits; red/purple named lose additional 15% fort instead
Repair Construct 1/1/1/1 1/4/7/10 repair 1d3+3 per second, per tier - 15 second duration
Trap Resistance 1/1/1 2/8/14 +2 to saves vs. traps and +3 to all elemental resistances per tier

**Combat Engineer: Traps take 50% less time to place and enemies who successfully save still have their defenses compromised, reducing fortification by 10% for 10 seconds (does not stack with itself)
Granted Benefits
Tier .5 Light Repeating Crossbow Proficiency; Critical fail while disarming trap dazes you, but does not explode the box
Tier 1 Add your Int bonus to crossbow/repeater damage; your trap DCs are increased; all of your traps and grenades deal 10% more damage
Tier 1.5 Heavy Repeating Crossbow Proficiency; +3 to Disable Device, Open Locks, and Search
Tier 2 Add half your dex bonus to sneak attack damage; your trap DCs are increased; +3% crit chance with traps and grenades (+0.5 multiplier)
Tier 2.5 Smite constructs/living constructs; +3 to elemental resistances, 10% damage reduction vs physical traps
Tier 3 Great Crossbow Proficientcy; your trap DCs are increased; traps and grenades deal addional 15% damage
Capstone: +2 Int; All light/heavy/great crossbows you wield fire volleys of 3 bolts, instead of 1; Trap DCs increased

There still aren't enough crossbow bonuses to reach the capstone without taking anything else. I'm not sure if I'm ok with that. You could still get the capstone without taking any trap enhancements, or without taking any crossbow enhancements, although I can't imagine why you'd want to. 74 total points in the tab.
Although at this point I'm not certain who to credit for inspiring the original idea.

jejeba86

09-26-2012, 06:15 PM

-Avalon-

09-26-2012, 07:03 PM

Eladrin, there have been some suggestions in other thread (sorry if this has already been said here, but I won't search for it) regarding melees capacities for self healing.
With the enhancement pass how about adding some enhancements for fighters and barbarians regarding healing values from potions? That way one who wants to be more sufficient can aim for it. And add the cure critical wounds potion to the in game vendors.
Maybe another potion, higher than this one.
Or even revamp the silver flame ones, add they are pretty outdated.
Can you give us your position about this possibility?

I think Healing Amp should affect cure potions. Add regular pots to the Silver Flame vendor, and the Silver Flame ones should have a base 25% bonus to what the normal pots of that level heal. And those effects should stack (Directly for a bonus of 55% with 30% amp, or indirectly for 47.5% with 30% Amp)

Silver Flame CLW Pot (1d6+2 normally) would cure 1.25[1d6+2] for a possible 4-10, CMW heals 1.25[2d6+6] (think that is right amount) for a range of 10-22, and cure serious 1.25[3d6+11] (also not sure) for 17-36... and with the 30% amp those will be more...

Could add the Potions of Cure Critical Wounds to the SF Vendor also, that way if you want best pots, you NEED SF favor.

Carpone

09-27-2012, 08:12 AM

Marewood

09-27-2012, 08:36 AM

Failedlegend

09-27-2012, 11:17 AM

What ads?

Sorry I should have explained better, DnD has never really been designed to be balanced so perfect imbalance fits it better. I guess your definition of balance is different than the general MMO term balance so good on yeah I'm just used to assuming otherwise

Chai

09-27-2012, 01:54 PM

You seem to be mistaking balance for similarity. You can have kung fu pandas that are immune to anything, which **** golden bricks, and which shoot laser beams from their eyes, dealing 5K DPS. Introduce them as a playable race and every powergamer is gonna luv you for that. In the end every1 will run around either with one of the Kung fu pandas, or will be left behind with one of the remaining flavor builds, eventually to be nuked into oblivion.

Balance == different (specialiced) classes with individual strengths and weaknesses == good.
Imbalance == singular classes being superior to others in a sense that they get boosts while not getting any significant limitations or restrictions. Horcs and Helfs are good examples of that in the mellee realm.

Btw. videos that force you to watch 3+ mins of ads are **** anyway.

No so for a D&D based game. Most games rely on class balance where each class does X DPS and has Y offense + Z defense as a potential and the larger one of those 3 variables gets, the smaller the other two get.

This is not how D&D works.

D&D is a content balance games and not a class balance game. Its up to the DM to throw a relatively equal amount of content at the party where each player can be the one that contributes the most/least, etc. Example:

Encounter 1: Bunch of ghouls - these are dangerous in low level D&D because they can paralyze on hit, and that can wipe a party rather quickly if people start failing saves. No matter, the sorc tosses one fireball into their midst and roasts them.

Encounter 2: Iron golem - that cocky sorc who won the first encounter with a single spell isnt so confident when he sees his fireball bounce off the golem with no effect. Thats right when the fighter remembers he had an adamantine weapon made a few modules back, fishes it out of his bag of holding, and begins smashing the golem to little bits.

The major issue with this games balance is that too many encounters favor casters. Mobs that are invulnerable to most magic in D&D are only given DR to it in DDO, and can still be killed with magic easier than they can be killed in melee. Its not a matter of having every toon do similar DPS or have similar defense to balance them out. Its a matter of having content that favors different archtypes, rather than the majority of all content favoring the same archtype.

-Avalon-

09-27-2012, 05:06 PM

You seem to be mistaking balance for similarity. You can have kung fu pandas that are immune to anything, which **** golden bricks, and which shoot laser beams from their eyes, dealing 5K DPS. Introduce them as a playable race and every powergamer is gonna luv you for that. In the end every1 will run around either with one of the Kung fu pandas, or will be left behind with one of the remaining flavor builds, eventually to be nuked into oblivion.

Balance == different (specialiced) classes with individual strengths and weaknesses == good.
Imbalance == singular classes being superior to others in a sense that they get boosts while not getting any significant limitations or restrictions. Horcs and Helfs are good examples of that in the mellee realm.

Btw. videos that force you to watch 3+ mins of ads are **** anyway.

I think you are using the cooking ingredient version of balance... Most games focus on balancing archetypes so that each one can solo just as effectively as the other (or at least that is what they try to do)... because players no longer work as a team in most MMOs until a raid comes up, then expect players who NEVER worked as a team - to work as a team =/

D&D, otoh, has always been a team game. Everyone shines at one point or another (or is supposed to)... It is bad DMing to create content that only allows one section of players to shine, in this case though, DM = Dev... They have created a great deal of content at mid-levels that focuses on making casters into Gods. At low levels, melees shine... at high levels, not really anyone shines though... everyone is pretty much even.

So balance in D&D = People have equal ability and responsibility to ensure the team succeeds. This is why in games like WoW, priests were at one time the way to DPS, at another time, Rogues... In D&D, rogues very often are mediocre at DPS due to lack of ability to SA higher level mobs (fortification), therefore are helping the group a TON by just removing traps (something no other game has really gotten done) and Clerics are primarily the healing for the group... In WoW, at one point, PALADINS were the best healers... Yeah, that is balance...

Should Clerics be able to do as much damage as a barbarian in rage? NO, should a melee be able to hit 20 enemies at once on a regular basis? NO.. Each team member has its own place, its own role. Balance in D&D means "Perfect Imbalance" because no character should be able to solo 10th lvl content on elite at 10th-12th lvl. They SHOULD need a group. All these other games are casual solo games with a good chat system (think ICQ/Yahoo Chat with a single player game attached)...

D&D is much more about socializing, becoming friends, building comradery, etc, and going to kick the tails of a bunch of bad guys together. Balance here, means making each member just as important to the team as the next member.

BossOfEarth

09-30-2012, 05:56 PM

kingfisher

10-01-2012, 06:48 PM

Bravo! I don't know what you've got planned but take your time. Rome didn't invent bacon in a day! :)

yeah take as long as you want.

anyone taking bets yet as to when?

-Avalon-

10-01-2012, 08:56 PM

yeah take as long as you want.

anyone taking bets yet as to when?

About when they add Duskblades? :p

goodoldxelos

10-02-2012, 07:38 AM

They have created a great deal of content at mid-levels that focuses on making casters into Gods. At low levels, melees shine... at high levels, not really anyone shines though... everyone is pretty much even. bad guys together. Balance here, means making each member just as important to the team as the next member.

I don't want to get side tracked in this thread but really? I just don't see this at all.

Ushurak

10-02-2012, 09:11 AM

The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs).[/url]

Hmmm...I have never complained openly about a change...BUUUUUUUT...here it goes!

For those of you above me that are trying to justify this statement by saying that the balancing means the dungeon will have a balance of things to make all classes useful and that it doesn't mean they will actually nerf the classes (always the arcanes)...TRY READING THIS AGAIN!

The statement PLAINLY says that there will be CLASS balancing.

This means that they are going to make sure that some whiney melee that got pwned in pvp...over and over and over again... by a caster two levels lower than themselves and submitted a report about how "overpowered" casters are going to get their wish.

The only way to "balance" classes is to make all 6th lvl THF barbs and fighters do the same damage at lvl 6 as a TWF
pali or rogue at lvl 6 and the Sorcs fireball at lvl 6...oh...and because the fireball can do its damage to an entire crowd then melee will have to have equal footing.

Forget the nerf-bat...it's become a nerf-jackhammer with its constant pounding.

Hey Turbine...instead of finding ways to "balance" the classes (in the real world we call this "Spreading the Wealth" and it DOESN'T work), start finding ways to improve on the classes that have been begging for more umph for years...like...say...ohhhh...the BARD!

Hopefully this will be my last complaint in Turbines direction, but it is really starting to feel and sound like Turbine is making its decisions based on the OWS agenda.

BTW - this doesn't mean that I am against a new enhancement system...it means I am against class balancing...allow each class to do what they were always intended to do and if players don't like it they can go role a panda on that "other" MMO.

-Avalon-

10-02-2012, 05:26 PM

Hmmm...I have never complained openly about a change...BUUUUUUUT...here it goes!

For those of you above me that are trying to justify this statement by saying that the balancing means the dungeon will have a balance of things to make all classes useful and that it doesn't mean they will actually nerf the classes (always the arcanes)...TRY READING THIS AGAIN!

The statement PLAINLY says that there will be CLASS balancing.

This means that they are going to make sure that some whiney melee that got pwned in pvp...over and over and over again... by a caster two levels lower than themselves and submitted a report about how "overpowered" casters are going to get their wish.

The only way to "balance" classes is to make all 6th lvl THF barbs and fighters do the same damage at lvl 6 as a TWF
pali or rogue at lvl 6 and the Sorcs fireball at lvl 6...oh...and because the fireball can do its damage to an entire crowd then melee will have to have equal footing.

Forget the nerf-bat...it's become a nerf-jackhammer with its constant pounding.

Hey Turbine...instead of finding ways to "balance" the classes (in the real world we call this "Spreading the Wealth" and it DOESN'T work), start finding ways to improve on the classes that have been begging for more umph for years...like...say...ohhhh...the BARD!

Hopefully this will be my last complaint in Turbines direction, but it is really starting to feel and sound like Turbine is making its decisions based on the OWS agenda.

BTW - this doesn't mean that I am against a new enhancement system...it means I am against class balancing...allow each class to do what they were always intended to do and if players don't like it they can go role a panda on that "other" MMO.

Wow, now that is an amazing assumption of the given facts...lol

First off, PVP is NOT there focus, only reason it is even in the game is to give players who like PVP something to do... besides that, go stroke your epeen somewhere else...

Also, amazingly no one ever really complains about how underpowered clerics are... yeah, they can toss a BB here and there, but realistically, at end of quest, the kills are mostly in the Wiz/Sorc and Ftr/Pal/Barb hands... You talk about how arcanes are ALWAYS the ones getting nerfed? You must be fairly new to game, like in last 3 years... When I started, everyone splashed a level of rogue if they wanted to do DPS because it was not just traps skills, but a free +1d6 damage to stack onto the 1d6 elemental damage...

BUT... that was when game first came out, THEN as they added levels to game, more and more and MORE enemies showed up who were not susceptible to SA... This has been somewhat better balanced since then, but for awhile, SA was NOT a big bonus at all, worked great from 1-8/9, but around 10/11 only worked on 80% of mobs, at 12 60%...

But, thankfully, they added some stuff in to make it more like 80-90% again... (from what I have seen, but I am not a rogue, so don't know what it is now exactly)

They will NEVER give melees the same damage an arcane caster has in the AoE sense... but since I have heard/seen barbs popping 1-5K hits, and have yet to hear an arcane do the same single target DPS... I think we are safe. Wiz/Sorc are kings of AoE damage, Melees are kind of single target... is just how it works.

This is because the melee lays out 5-6 attacks at 1-5K (have heard of barbs doing 4-5K per hit) so a single target takes minimum 5K, max 25K (avg 15K) in just a couple seconds... how much is your wiz/sorc doing single target aside from insta-kills? And then, when they run out of SP, how much DPS are they slinging around? That barb is still hacking away...

Stop having a knee-jerk reaction (even though took you awhile to say it, you were still having one inside), calm down, and think before you go jump off a cliff with your assumptions. THF and TWF SHOULD be even in DPS, why? Because one uses an extra weapon, other one is putting that extra hand on the same weapon... neither one is using a shield, so both should be doing just as much as the other...

The problem on THF vs TWF comes in at the Str/Dex problem. If your TWF is str based then cool, but game sort of pushes people to be dex based TWF... and with exceptions of a few weapons, str is how you get damage... Also, you don't get full strength on off-hand, and the weapons themselves do less damage... so when your total damage for both hands is 100, and the THF is a 100 in same time, it seems even... but divide that 100 by 2, and add in a DR 20/? and the TWF now has a total of 60, where the THF is at 80...

Versus trash, TWF rocks... versus boss mobs, THF is better I think...

And as for the other poster just not seeing this... I cannot help that... I've played arcane casters (and saw the melees doing tons) and played melees (and saw arcane casters doing tons)... I think your problem is purely perspective. You only see one direction because the grass is greener...

Ushurak

10-02-2012, 08:59 PM

Wow, now that is an amazing assumption of the given facts...lol

First off, PVP is NOT there focus, only reason it is even in the game is to give players who like PVP something to do... besides that, go stroke your epeen somewhere else...

Also, amazingly no one ever really complains about how underpowered clerics are... yeah, they can toss a BB here and there, but realistically, at end of quest, the kills are mostly in the Wiz/Sorc and Ftr/Pal/Barb hands... You talk about how arcanes are ALWAYS the ones getting nerfed? You must be fairly new to game, like in last 3 years... When I started, everyone splashed a level of rogue if they wanted to do DPS because it was not just traps skills, but a free +1d6 damage to stack onto the 1d6 elemental damage...

BUT... that was when game first came out, THEN as they added levels to game, more and more and MORE enemies showed up who were not susceptible to SA... This has been somewhat better balanced since then, but for awhile, SA was NOT a big bonus at all, worked great from 1-8/9, but around 10/11 only worked on 80% of mobs, at 12 60%...

But, thankfully, they added some stuff in to make it more like 80-90% again... (from what I have seen, but I am not a rogue, so don't know what it is now exactly)

They will NEVER give melees the same damage an arcane caster has in the AoE sense... but since I have heard/seen barbs popping 1-5K hits, and have yet to hear an arcane do the same single target DPS... I think we are safe. Wiz/Sorc are kings of AoE damage, Melees are kind of single target... is just how it works.

This is because the melee lays out 5-6 attacks at 1-5K (have heard of barbs doing 4-5K per hit) so a single target takes minimum 5K, max 25K (avg 15K) in just a couple seconds... how much is your wiz/sorc doing single target aside from insta-kills? And then, when they run out of SP, how much DPS are they slinging around? That barb is still hacking away...

Stop having a knee-jerk reaction (even though took you awhile to say it, you were still having one inside), calm down, and think before you go jump off a cliff with your assumptions. THF and TWF SHOULD be even in DPS, why? Because one uses an extra weapon, other one is putting that extra hand on the same weapon... neither one is using a shield, so both should be doing just as much as the other...

The problem on THF vs TWF comes in at the Str/Dex problem. If your TWF is str based then cool, but game sort of pushes people to be dex based TWF... and with exceptions of a few weapons, str is how you get damage... Also, you don't get full strength on off-hand, and the weapons themselves do less damage... so when your total damage for both hands is 100, and the THF is a 100 in same time, it seems even... but divide that 100 by 2, and add in a DR 20/? and the TWF now has a total of 60, where the THF is at 80...

Versus trash, TWF rocks... versus boss mobs, THF is better I think...

And as for the other poster just not seeing this... I cannot help that... I've played arcane casters (and saw the melees doing tons) and played melees (and saw arcane casters doing tons)... I think your problem is purely perspective. You only see one direction because the grass is greener...

You almost made my entire argument for me while trying to refute me.

1) I could care less about rogue splashes.

2) While I have never played a Barb I have seen those numbers put up by guild member Barbs as well which should further go to prove my point about how there is NO class "balancing" needed.

3) I won't post my Sorc-bot's single target numbers but can assure you that you are wrong on that part.

4) You mentioned "kill-count" and Sorcs/Wizzies being at the top....so what! Your point? The kill count chart is a major problem in and of itself because many players use it as a catch all to prove the power of themselves or other group members.

This leaves people forgetting that the palli aggroed everything so the mass holds would hit them all so the Ottilukes or WoB would kill them all. My AM Enchanter is NEVER near the top of the kill count..it's not what he does. What he does do though is immobilize everything so everyone else can get their kill count...I have zero problems with that.

My Sorc-bot however is usually at the top of the kill count barring their being a PM around and with the WoB nerf can even keep up on occasion. Now...is this solely due to him being a WF Sorc? NO! And it is ridiculous to think that. It is because I have played that one single toon for 3 straight years..he is my main. I know how to play him and play him well.

Are their some classes that need a little help stepping up? Yes. Do any need to be swatted down...NO?

As far as your pvp comment...sorry, you lose. I've seen more troubles come from pvp than ANY other portion of the game.

Like I said though, I am NOT against a new enhancement system. I think it would be great to turn it into something similar to the ED tree.
I AM TOTALLY against class "balancing".

Failedlegend

10-02-2012, 10:08 PM

DOOOOoooOOOOOMMMMM!!!!1!!!!!111111

I fail to see how you get "Were nerfing everything" from "Were Balancing things out a bit (think augmentation not nerfs"

Also to say things are balanced is ridiculous.

Rogue Assassin > Acrobat & Mechanic
Melee > Ranged
Most > Paladins & Rangers
Everything > Elves and Drow
Str > Dex
Warchanter > Virtuoso & Spellsinger

I'd keep going but my breaks over

Ushurak

10-03-2012, 09:14 AM

I fail to see how you get "Were nerfing everything" from "Were Balancing things out a bit (think augmentation not nerfs"

Also to say things are balanced is ridiculous.

Rogue Assassin > Acrobat & Mechanic
Melee > Ranged
Most > Paladins & Rangers
Everything > Elves and Drow
Str > Dex
Warchanter > Virtuoso & Spellsinger

I'd keep going but my breaks over

First let me start by asking how you were able to quote me saying something I never said...you work for NBC don't you? :D

The problem is that they didn't JUST say that they were balancing "things" out a bit. They also said (as their primary statement/goal) that they are balancing CLASSES. To balance "things" would mean making dungeons that need more balanced parties. To balance classes means some take a nerf while some get a boost placing all in the middle.

Now what would their estimation of what should be nerfed and what should be boosted run off of? My assumption (I'd say it's a fair one since it has been brought up by a proponent of the idea) is the kill count log.

Now your greater/lesser list does look slightly opinionated though...but that's ok because I also have my opinions on what is greater and lesser in the game as well.

Rogue Assassin > Acrobat & Mechanic: I guess if you solely look at kill count, although my Arti does pretty well in that area and still mechanics and crafts and all sorts of other goodies that IMHO more than makes up for what ever he may lack in the KC stats.

Melee > Ranged: I know plenty of players that would disagree with this. I can go either way though.

Most > Paladins & Rangers: I am a caster fan so I would have replaced the word "most" with "caster" and would have replaced the words "palli and ranger" with "all others". But that's mho. Seriously though, never have played a palli or ranger...why do they get a bad rep? I see many that put out some sweet dps and I thought palli's were some of the top AC builds? Just wondering.

Everything > Elves and Drow: hehehe ...agreed...but mine would look like Warforged>Everything>Elves/Drow

Str > Dex: Again that's opinion not fact. All depends on what build you have.

Warchanter > Virtuoso & Spellsinger: Never played a bard so can't say for sure...I just know everything is better with a bard around...I think I should make one.

...and I didn't post this to disagree with you, it was to show how one's opinions can change their perspective of everything in the game...and yes, my opinion makes me see things about the game different from you or the devs or Avalon which disagreed with me...which is why balancing shouldn't be tried and can't be done. Because it would have to be based on what someone's opinion of what overpowered/underpowered/balanced looks like and is based off of...and if it is going to be based off of kill count then get ready for the entire game to go down the tubes.

esheep

10-03-2012, 01:01 PM

Warchanter > Virtuoso & Spellsinger

Depending on your objectives, yes. However if I was going to be duoing things or even soloing, I would take my virtuoso over a warchanter any day of the week.

Lyria

10-03-2012, 01:46 PM

First let me start by asking how you were able to quote me saying something I never said...you work for NBC don't you? :D

No, because you're assuming "we're going to be balancing classes a bit (think augmentation, not nerfs)" somehow means "They're gonna nerf everything!!!!"

This is what you said:

This means that they are going to make sure that some whiney melee that got pwned in pvp...over and over and over again... by a caster two levels lower than themselves and submitted a report about how "overpowered" casters are going to get their wish.

The only way to "balance" classes is to make all 6th lvl THF barbs and fighters do the same damage at lvl 6 as a TWF
pali or rogue at lvl 6 and the Sorcs fireball at lvl 6...oh...and because the fireball can do its damage to an entire crowd then melee will have to have equal footing.

Forget the nerf-bat...it's become a nerf-jackhammer with its constant pounding.

So yeah, you're crying "dooooooooooooom!"

which is why balancing shouldn't be tried and can't be done.

And sorry, but this is the most flat-out ridiculous statement I've heard in a long time.

Ushurak

10-03-2012, 02:02 PM

No, because you're assuming "we're going to be balancing classes a bit (think augmentation, not nerfs)" somehow means "They're gonna nerf everything!!!!"

This is what you said:

So yeah, you're crying "dooooooooooooom!"

And sorry, but this is the most flat-out ridiculous statement I've heard in a long time.

OK...so someone else around here has NBC style editing skills as well...nice! :D

So you take the 1st part of the second post I made and turn it into the first part of you quoiting me, then you take the second portion of the first post post I made and jammed it together with the first part you used that was never together with it in the first place and then you took the last thing I said in the last post I made and placed in with all the above and made it look like I admitted to shooting TM....well played indeed.

But for anyone willing to go back and read what I posted they would easily see that the context you edited it into are completely different.

Lyria

10-03-2012, 02:19 PM

OK...so someone else around here has NBC style editing skills as well...nice! :D

So you take the 1st part of the second post I made and turn it into the first part of you quoiting me, then you take the second portion of the first post post I made and jammed it together with the first part you used that was never together with it in the first place and then you took the last thing I said in the last post I made and placed in with all the above and made it look like I admitted to shooting TM....well played indeed.

But for anyone willing to go back and read what I posted they would easily see that the context you edited it into are completely different.

I read your posts. Do you claim you said something different than what I quoted?

You were saying that "balance" leads to "huge nerfs", and made up some comment about "whiny melees getting pwned in pvp" to justify your belief.

When someone else pointed out you were crying "dooooom", you started throwing accusations of them of somehow misinterpreting what you were saying, despite the fact that that's exactly what you were doing.

Here's the entirety of your first post:

Hmmm...I have never complained openly about a change...BUUUUUUUT...here it goes!

For those of you above me that are trying to justify this statement by saying that the balancing means the dungeon will have a balance of things to make all classes useful and that it doesn't mean they will actually nerf the classes (always the arcanes)...TRY READING THIS AGAIN!

The statement PLAINLY says that there will be CLASS balancing.

This means that they are going to make sure that some whiney melee that got pwned in pvp...over and over and over again... by a caster two levels lower than themselves and submitted a report about how "overpowered" casters are going to get their wish.

The only way to "balance" classes is to make all 6th lvl THF barbs and fighters do the same damage at lvl 6 as a TWF
pali or rogue at lvl 6 and the Sorcs fireball at lvl 6...oh...and because the fireball can do its damage to an entire crowd then melee will have to have equal footing.

Forget the nerf-bat...it's become a nerf-jackhammer with its constant pounding.

Hey Turbine...instead of finding ways to "balance" the classes (in the real world we call this "Spreading the Wealth" and it DOESN'T work), start finding ways to improve on the classes that have been begging for more umph for years...like...say...ohhhh...the BARD!

Hopefully this will be my last complaint in Turbines direction, but it is really starting to feel and sound like Turbine is making its decisions based on the OWS agenda.

BTW - this doesn't mean that I am against a new enhancement system...it means I am against class balancing...allow each class to do what they were always intended to do and if players don't like it they can go role a panda on that "other" MMO.

Note the bolded part.

And here's the entire section that I pulled your "you shouldn't even try to balance" quote from:

...and I didn't post this to disagree with you, it was to show how one's opinions can change their perspective of everything in the game...and yes, my opinion makes me see things about the game different from you or the devs or Avalon which disagreed with me...which is why balancing shouldn't be tried and can't be done. Because it would have to be based on what someone's opinion of what overpowered/underpowered/balanced looks like and is based off of...and if it is going to be based off of kill count then get ready for the entire game to go down the tubes.

Does my lifting just that one quote, which I pointed out I found especially ridiculous, change your statement at all? You admit that your own opinion changes how you view the game -- which is probably why you see nothing but "doooooooom!" when it comes to "balancing", and then claim that "balancing shouldn't be tried and can't be done".

Sounds to me less like people "creatively editing" your posts, and more like you using the Newt Gingrich defense of "If you repeat what I said you're misquoting me." Since, you know, we're throwing around media/group/public figure references.

-Avalon-

10-03-2012, 07:44 PM

You almost made my entire argument for me while trying to refute me.

1) I could care less about rogue splashes.

2) While I have never played a Barb I have seen those numbers put up by guild member Barbs as well which should further go to prove my point about how there is NO class "balancing" needed.

3) I won't post my Sorc-bot's single target numbers but can assure you that you are wrong on that part.

4) You mentioned "kill-count" and Sorcs/Wizzies being at the top....so what! Your point? The kill count chart is a major problem in and of itself because many players use it as a catch all to prove the power of themselves or other group members.

This leaves people forgetting that the palli aggroed everything so the mass holds would hit them all so the Ottilukes or WoB would kill them all. My AM Enchanter is NEVER near the top of the kill count..it's not what he does. What he does do though is immobilize everything so everyone else can get their kill count...I have zero problems with that.

My Sorc-bot however is usually at the top of the kill count barring their being a PM around and with the WoB nerf can even keep up on occasion. Now...is this solely due to him being a WF Sorc? NO! And it is ridiculous to think that. It is because I have played that one single toon for 3 straight years..he is my main. I know how to play him and play him well.

Are their some classes that need a little help stepping up? Yes. Do any need to be swatted down...NO?

As far as your pvp comment...sorry, you lose. I've seen more troubles come from pvp than ANY other portion of the game.

Like I said though, I am NOT against a new enhancement system. I think it would be great to turn it into something similar to the ED tree.
I AM TOTALLY against class "balancing".

wow... all this talk of NBC style edits and cuts... and you did the exact same thing. I did state more than just Sorc/Wiz on top of kill count charts: "the kills are mostly in the Wiz/Sorc and Ftr/Pal/Barb hands"... yet that said, "4) You mentioned "kill-count" and Sorcs/Wizzies being at the top" to you... interesting.

As for OUR NBC-style skillz, you say we edited your comments and left things out and all that... that somehow you were misquoted as saying that the new "balance" would actually be a nerf... Let's see:

"The statement PLAINLY says that there will be CLASS balancing.

This means that they are going to make sure that some whiney melee that got pwned in pvp...over and over and over again... by a caster two levels lower than themselves and submitted a report about how "overpowered" casters are going to get their wish.

The only way to "balance" classes is to make all 6th lvl THF barbs and fighters do the same damage at lvl 6 as a TWF
pali or rogue at lvl 6 and the Sorcs fireball at lvl 6...oh...and because the fireball can do its damage to an entire crowd then melee will have to have equal footing.

Forget the nerf-bat...it's become a nerf-jackhammer with its constant pounding."

Hmmm, seems pretty much EXACTLY what you said, word for word. If you wanna say it isn't, fine, but unlike real life, forums DO record what you say, and if you go back and change it, it tells everyone you did that as well... YOU said those words (or rather typed, but whatever)...

Now, if we wanted to do NBC-Style editing.... Let's see what we COULD have come up with:

PLAINLY... there will be CLASS balancing. This means that they are going to make sure... a caster... do the same damage at lvl 6 as a TWF pali or rogue at lvl 6

WOW!!! I never knew you supported this SO much!!! THAT is NBC-Style... what we did earlier is HITTING THE QUOTE BUTTON. There wasn't any editing, what you said is what YOU said. If you want me to edit your posts, just let me know, because odds are it will be MORE intelligent. Actually, I'd love to see what sort of REAL editing Failed could come up with...

Aashrym

10-07-2012, 07:49 PM

This seems like a teaser to post in this thread...

Resonance

Gain Harmonic Shield as a first level bard spell.

Each time you purchase the first rank of an enhancement in the spellsinger tree you gain +10 spell points and +1% to your universal spell power.

Wassail

Grants feat Brutal Throwing

Each time you purchase the first rank of an enhancement in the war chanter tree you gain 1 hit point.

Please note: I did not receive any benefits from those 2 enhancements that I noticed. They were free while leveling a new character up and appeared at 2nd level bard as free enhancements, on Lammania in the U16 preview.

EDIT: My current understanding it the mechanic is a teaser but the numbers are already out-dated in the fast-paced world of Turbine Development. It was nice to see some teasers even if they just leaked subjected to change kind of information through. :D

Alavatar

12-01-2012, 03:01 PM

GeoBob

12-02-2012, 10:52 AM

Failedlegend

12-02-2012, 11:20 AM

Might have missed another post in the thread explaining this, but what about Sorcerer...? It says in the "Mock-Up" that it will show the racial enhancements, and then 3 for class PrE's. But Sorcerers have 4 (Fire,Ice,Earth,Air Savant). Is this saying they are getting rid of one of the sorcerer PrE's? Or just not thinking about Sorcerer?

Other than that, the enhancement change i think will be greatly needed. Thanks for the heads up :)

IIRC the devs said it would count as one PrE and could choose the element from a drop down...but no mention of what the 3rd PrE will be for them since only Savant and Acolyte of the Skin have been announced

Cyreonx

12-02-2012, 11:21 AM

Failedlegend

12-02-2012, 11:33 AM

You mean five prestige tabs for sorcerors, since I think they are still making acolyte of the skin. You'll probably end up having to pick the 3 you want. If its only 1 element per tree what happens to things that don't fit nicely in elemental casting such as force and repair spells?

they'll probably get shoehorned into AotS by default...its one of about 1000 questions the devs have yet to answer and I doubt they'll say anything else until it hits lama in the new year...which if history is anything too go by it will be too late to change anything

Glenalth

12-02-2012, 12:56 PM

Might have missed another post in the thread explaining this, but what about Sorcerer...? It says in the "Mock-Up" that it will show the racial enhancements, and then 3 for class PrE's. But Sorcerers have 4 (Fire,Ice,Earth,Air Savant). Is this saying they are getting rid of one of the sorcerer PrE's? Or just not thinking about Sorcerer?

Other than that, the enhancement change i think will be greatly needed. Thanks for the heads up :)

It would probably just be set up the same way Draconic Incarnation is where one tab covers 4 different dragon types.

BlackSmith81

12-02-2012, 10:36 PM

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same. Well to it is broken, in two ways.
The whole APE (Action Point Enhancements) system makes feats look like **** and give, compared to the original game, huge benefits. I was thinking when they were introduced that they would work as clue and smoothener between the paper and online version, instead they give roughly as much extra power to a character as all his feats.
If there would be a option to turn off all APE's from the party when entering a quest, I know many D&D fans that would pick up the game. My own group included.
Enough of that, onward to the main question.
Ps. In D&D enhancement is reserved for spell school and item abilities thus adding third meaning to it is no go for me, so bear with the APE.

feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion.:mad: There is no clear path to a specific APE nor a option to select a goal and the game picking up the APE's towards that goal while generating those points.
:mad: The limitations to pick up APE's (at starting levels) are simply annoying. I can't take anything useful or sometimes even fitting to my character as I haven't used enough points. So I end staring options like taking Subtle Backstabbing and following that with Brute Fighting. Only way around this is to take some feat that can be boosted, like toughness. That also means that getting some certain feats that you actually need to get the character in the flow, are pushed back.
:mad: I have burned good chunk of gold to resets because of the above issues.
:mad: I don't understand why the PrC's are done trough APE's instead of real classes with real prerequisites. There is no sacrifice done, no trade off what so ever. Everything is just gaining more power.
There is almost one exception in this and that's pale master. If the transformation would be permanent, not something you could simply turn on and loose at death, then being transformed to a undead would really need some consideration. Now a character without a PrC is a gimp compared to a puritist.
:mad: Going trough the APE's make my computer lurch, each time. I am afraid to change the way they are listed because it generates huge lag spike and my HD sounds like it is taking off. No, my computer's are not old.

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

A single classed character will have their racial tree and the three trees that are associated with their class displayed. These trees correspond to the three Prestige Enhancement lines tied to the class.

...High tiers of most enhancements will have class level requirements.
Could you also fix in the process that PrC's would not be a boosters for certain class but represent more the original idea about being their own class.
In other words, instead of allowing only barbarians take certain PrC's, all those that can rage and have feats X Y Z to take it. This might not seem a issue but those that multiclass, making sacrifices to gain perks and to be able to make feats that otherwise would be impossible for single class representative, are being punished for trying to use the multiclass feature of DnD.
As an example all caster PrC's are class restricted, but in D&D they are restricted by feats and what kind of spells you can cast thus anyone that can pull the requirements can gain levels in that PrC. As an example the Tempest PrC. In D&D 3½ the prereq to become a tempest is the ability to swing weapons in both hands. Sure, ranger's get the feats to do so but nothing prevents a wizard with the requited feats picking up tempest PrC.
In DDO its always a ranger that becomes a tempest, even though they are not forced to focus only in TWF style. They also gain all the ranger benefits.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). Where are your balls? Sure, nerfing something rises a cry from those that have been exploiting that feature or riding the power wave, but that does not make it any less unbalanced or a bad call. Not being able to power down players makes the game roll with the endgame gamer's and forces the developers eventually to cheat, game mechanical vise.
If nothing can be done to the player's power except add, what options that leave to the developers.

I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end. Then don't make it stressful. Show clearly what the player character gains from following that path. Not just the one step, but what is the result.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. How could change make things any worse? So bring it on!

So here is the mockup that was promised.
Thank You and to anyone that gave you permission to post this. Commenting somekind of mockup idea is lot easier.

Each race will have an enhancement that adds another specific enhancement tree to the character’s available list of trees. Elves and Half-Elves, for instance, gain access to the Arcane Archer tree if they take the racial enhancement to unlock it. Dwarves gain access to Stalwart Defender. The player can choose to unlock the tree and then not use it, if they so desire. Trees unlocked in this way use the character’s total character level instead of class level for prerequisites and effects.D&D 3½'s strongest features over other RPG's is the fact that races give very little benefit for certain roles or limit them. The more race APE's give benefit for certain class, the more game is pushed to limited class&race combos. Playing the "But you CAN take any class you want" -card is plain stupid if in reality those combos are turned down by group leaders because of the too big power gap.

Initially, players will have the bottom row of enhancements available to them. As players spend enhancement points within the current tree, additional tiers of enhancements will become available to them. Enhancements will no longer have a “total action points spent” prerequisite, this is replaced by a “total action points spent in this tree” prerequisite, and is defined by the tier the enhancement is on. (5 * [Tier of Enhancement – 1]) If there are no feat prerequisites or disadvantages, this sounds lot like just a way to boost players more. Something they don't really need.

Most enhancements will be able to be selected multiple times – the player will do this by selecting the same enhancement repeatedly, incrementing the number of times it has been taken, giving greater effects, up to a limit. (For example, Sneak Attack Damage can be taken 5 times.) If something needs to have a limit, it usually means that ability is too strong.
If you want to give some uber duper powers from a PrC (like now) then make the effects originate from multiple sources. Instead of giving all the candy after reaching a certain point, give the taste as early as possible but to make it really sweet, you need to build it up. This is the case in most well done D&D PrC's, but none seen in Turbine PrC's.
To give an example the PrC: Assassin I. It should not increase your SA at all as there is already a APE that does that. Bonus to confirm critical hits could be equal to how many points there are in APE: Spot, either directly or multiplied by X. Rather than having a chance to poison its target, it would be more appropriate that first attack always applies poison, from both weapons, and the character would automagicly coat the weapons in poison when hiding. That way getting back sneaking and staying undetected would have more value.
As there is already a APE that increases to-hit for SA's, that would also be dropped.
The poisons DC should again build from different source, be it knowledge: poison or as easy as directly the characters int bonus.

This way the PrC abilities don't become a huge power surge and they don't need to cost more AP's that you get at one level. Instead if the player wants the ability to be really powerful, he needs to spend points to build it such.

Players can figure out what requirements they’re missing by viewing the tooltipPlease make sure the tooltips are not trivial. Tooltip that just says the same thing again makes me pull my hair.

Some enhancements have other enhancements as a prerequisites chain. These are shown in the mockup with arrows in between them. Knife Attack leads to Knife Damage, which then leads to Knife Specialization. An enhancement that has another as a prerequisite cannot have a rank higher than its prerequisite, so to get Knife Damage III, the player must have Knife Attack III. To get Knife Spec IV, the player must have both Knife Attack IV and Knife Damage IV. At the present situation, these APE chains usually leave out weapons or exclude others. If you have chosen a weapon that is not the most common one, the PrC usually looses its edge.
e.g. In D&D deity's offer multiple options for their chosen weapon and with some feat sacrificing character can use some more exotic ones. In Turbine D&D this could be seen as the benefits being given to any of the deity's weapons or that with couple extra AP's burned, you could swing some other weapon while gaining the benefits.

Each enhancement tree will have a line of enhancements that are automatically granted to the character based on the number of points spent in that tree.This generates power surge and sweet spots.

Players should be able to spend action points anywhere in the world by opening up the Enhancements UI, without needing to seek out a trainer.This is really handy, but why not make the whole none-dungeon part to happen in dialogs then, eh?
Instead of removing the trainers, I would rather see a real function with them. If I choose something, a new ability or such, the trainer would show me what it does and how it affects my character. I.o. Make the trainers give me the information I now read from wiki when seeking enlightenment.

Failedlegend

12-03-2012, 09:38 AM

Well to it is broken, in two ways.
The whole APE (Action Point Enhancements) system makes feats look like **** and give, compared to the original game, huge benefits. I was thinking when they were introduced that they would work as clue and smoothener between the paper and online version, instead they give roughly as much extra power to a character as all his feats.
If there would be a option to turn off all APE's from the party when entering a quest, I know many D&D fans that would pick up the game. My own group included.

Their NOT going to remove the Enhancement System, if you don't want to use the enhancement system...don't. Simple as that

:mad: There is no clear path to a specific APE nor a option to select a goal and the game picking up the APE's towards that goal while generating those points.

The devs have said their already planning on making pre-reqs etc. much clearer, personally though I hope their really careful about not making it TOO clear by sacrificing the current versatility of the system

:mad: The limitations to pick up APE's (at starting levels) are simply annoying. I can't take anything useful or sometimes even fitting to my character as I haven't used enough points. So I end staring options like taking Subtle Backstabbing and following that with Brute Fighting. Only way around this is to take some feat that can be boosted, like toughness. That also means that getting some certain feats that you actually need to get the character in the flow, are pushed back.

This I have to say is a PITA, having to take random enhancements you don't care about to get what you want due to "AP Spent" requirement.

:mad: I don't understand why the PrC's are done trough APE's instead of real classes with real prerequisites. There is no sacrifice done, no trade off what so ever. Everything is just gaining more power.

Personally I prefer it this way it's actually similar to the "Guild" system I houseruled back when I played 3.5e I made it so people would be able to take 1-3 bases classes than could join a Guild/clan/order of some sort (possibly two if it makes sense)

There is almost one exception in this and that's pale master. If the transformation would be permanent, not something you could simply turn on and loose at death, then being transformed to a undead would really need some consideration.

As little as I would care since my PMs rarely ever leave form this is another thing you can regulate yourself and really would **** off a large amount of people.

Now a character without a PrC is a gimp compared to a puritist.

Again this is not a systems issue this is a you issue

:mad: Going trough the APE's make my computer lurch, each time. I am afraid to change the way they are listed because it generates huge lag spike and my HD sounds like it is taking off. No, my computer's are not old.

Again this is a you issue not a system issue

Could you also fix in the process that PrC's would not be a boosters for certain class but represent more the original idea about being their own class.
In other words, instead of allowing only barbarians take certain PrC's, all those that can rage and have feats X Y Z to take it. This might not seem a issue but those that multiclass, making sacrifices to gain perks and to be able to make feats that otherwise would be impossible for single class representative, are being punished for trying to use the multiclass feature of DnD.

Yes and no, as much as I'd love to be able to take Kensai on my Paladin this IMO will actually give less reason to multi-class since the PrE are a big part of WHY people multi-class...there's a reason popular break points are 6,12 & 18 (with the new system as far as we know this will become 3,6,9,12,15,18,20) on the other hand it would mean multi-classes could take full PrEs...I'm not sure how the dice would land on this but it would likely be a huge undertaking and be a balance nightmare for the devs (3.5 was unbalanced to all hell) If they could pull of properly I'd be all for it though

In DDO its always a ranger that becomes a tempest, even though they are not forced to focus only in TWF style. They also gain all the ranger benefits.

Personally I think rangers should be made to choose melee or ranged a-la PnP but they should also get more spells and an animal companion a-la Druid (but make it feline to distinguish them)

Where are your balls? Sure, nerfing something rises a cry from those that have been exploiting that feature or riding the power wave, but that does not make it any less unbalanced or a bad call. Not being able to power down players makes the game roll with the endgame gamer's and forces the developers eventually to cheat, game mechanical vise. If nothing can be done to the player's power except add, what options that leave to the developers.

No need to cheat DnD has a plethora of nasty monsters each stronger than the last...and regardless of whether DDO is a low magic or high magic there will always be a best combo and people will always flock to it even if its only 0.0000001% better.

D&D 3½'s strongest features over other RPG's is the fact that races give very little benefit for certain roles or limit them. The more race APE's give benefit for certain class, the more game is pushed to limited class&race combos.

I agree in the fact that races shouldn't be glaringly better at anything in paticular but I do think each class needs their schtick...like Elves should be ipso facto Archers and Longsword wielders, A Dwarf with a D-Axe should be epic...you know stuff their racially inclined to do...Warforged should be great fighters and due to their inherent magical nature spellcasters...halflings should be masters of stealth, trickers and light weapons (either thrown or thrust)

That said Racial PrEs should not be the same as class PrEs they should be unique PrEs that add something interesting not necessarily something uber powerful...like Halflings Talentia Outrider should get a Dino Companion, movement speed boosts,etc. Dwarves could get Dwarven Defender which instead of being a copy of DoS or SD it would focus on magnifying the dwarfs natural defensive abilities like immunity to knockdown, inimidate bonuses, bonuses to shield/armor dex bonus, bonus saves vs. spells, immune to poison stuff like that.

snip-PrEs are too powerfyl and I keep saying APE for some reason-snip-

Sorry you said this like 50 different ways in multiple paragraphs...yes their powerfdul their supposed to be, if they weren;t powerful no one would take them/

At the present situation, these APE chains usually leave out weapons or exclude others. If you have chosen a weapon that is not the most common one, the PrC usually looses its edge.
e.g. In D&D deity's offer multiple options for their chosen weapon and with some feat sacrificing character can use some more exotic ones. In Turbine D&D this could be seen as the benefits being given to any of the deity's weapons or that with couple extra AP's burned, you could swing some other weapon while gaining the benefits.

Yeah FvS do need more signature weapons it's really limiting right now...either that or the bonus needs to be increase..alot +1to-hit/+2 damage is pathetic

This generates power surge and sweet spots.

ummm...I hate to say this but...so? thats going to happen regardless at least the PrE system makes it easier for a newer player to spot

MRMechMan

12-03-2012, 09:42 AM

.
How could change make things any worse? So bring it on!

"New is always better"

-Barney Stinson

BlackSmith81

12-03-2012, 08:49 PM

Their NOT going to remove the Enhancement System, if you don't want to use the enhancement system...don't. Simple as thatCongrats, you missed the point. Both of them.

I hope their really careful about not making it TOO clear by sacrificing the current versatility of the systemExcuse-moi? What versatility? How could anything be too clear?

Personally I prefer it this way it's actually similar to the "Guild" system I houseruled back when I played 3.5e I made it so people would be able to take 1-3 bases classes than could join a Guild/clan/order of some sort (possibly two if it makes sense) You prefer that there is no need for sacrifices? So instead of trying to keep the (prestige) classes balanced, everyone in the guild was more powerful than those that were not.
Sure, that sounds exactly as DDO's PrC's.

As little as I would care since my PMs rarely ever leave form this is another thing you can regulate yourself and really would **** off a large amount of people. And because you can regulate it yourself, do you even consider it to be a feature that you would not want thus returning to my point al lthe PrC's are all about gaining power, not about trade-offs.

Again this is not a systems issue this is a you issueAgain and a you issue?
Are you suggesting that I am the only one that has a weaker character if do not choose PrC for it? I can assure that the phenomena is global.

Again this is a you issue not a system issue Hardly, I get the same effect with having CPU:20%*1 and 95%*6 . Its more about badly designed data handling.

Yes and no, as much as I'd love to be able to take Kensai on my Paladin this IMO will actually give less reason to multi-class since the PrE are a big part of WHY people multi-class... Please rephrase.
I also think you missed the fact that there should be no class requirements, but ability requirements like in D&D.

it would mean multi-classes could take full PrEs...I'm not sure how the dice would land on this but it would likely be a huge undertaking and be a balance nightmare for the devsI fail to see how it would be nightmare to balance. As there is no trade-offs in the system, you only need to balance the PrC's against each other.

3.5 was unbalanced to all hellEither we have been playing different D&D's but 3½ has been the most balanced D&D this far. Only thing tht was not balanced was the psionic combat (that was revised in the extension).

Personally I think rangers should be made to choose melee or ranged a-la PnP but they should also get more spells If they got enough wisdom to grant extra slots, the sure give 'em more spell slots.

...an animal companion a-la Druid (but make it feline to distinguish them)They have summon animal already. Companion is a strong class feature.

No need to cheat DnD has a plethora of nasty monsters each stronger than the last... And still they cheat. NPC's and PC's should all be subject to the same rules.

regardless of whether DDO is a low magic or high magic there will always be a best combo and people will always flock to it even if its only 0.0000001% better. Does it matter if the mage joining your team have 1,300 or 1,3001 SPs? Hardly, but leaders do notice when two characters at the same level have twice the difference in HPs, only because of the other one has two items the other one is missing. I.o. Item(s) is giving remarkably much more benefit than the class itself. Something that does not belong to D&D. You are playing a character, not a wardrobe.

I agree in the fact that races shouldn't be glaringly better at anything in paticular but I do think each class needs their schtick And they get that kind of bonuses already. Sure, it is not +10 to this and that, but it is a bonus that makes them better in that one thing than any other race. Not much but thats the point.
Btw the racial dwarf bonuses is not to axes, but vs giants. Coming from the century long wars between them and giants. And warforgeds are natural fighters vs undead, thanks for their immunity all kind of nasty negative powers.

That said Racial PrEs should not be the same as class PrEs they should be unique PrEs that add something interesting not necessarily something uber powerful...like Halflings Talentia Outrider should get a Dino Companion, movement speed boosts,etc. Dwarves could get Dwarven Defender which instead of being a copy of DoS or SD it would focus on magnifying the dwarfs natural defensive abilities like immunity to knockdown, inimidate bonuses, bonuses to shield/armor dex bonus, bonus saves vs. spells, immune to poison stuff like that. You consider none of those uber? Kinda proves my point. Characters have so much power nowadays and immunity's that gaining handful of bonuses and immunity's for just being member of one race is not considered powerful. Back in the days there were two things that were immune to disease, those being warforgeds and paladins. Oh, they were so über and special. Now being immune to disease is a standard, not a speciality.

Sorry you said this like 50 different ways in multiple paragraphs...yes their powerfdul their supposed to be, if they weren;t powerful no one would take them/50 different ways and still you fail to grasp why its bad they are so powerful. As there is nothing to loose, of course people would take them. They would take them even if it would cost 50 AP's to get 10 SP.
And like I said in the first paragraph in my post, enhancement is a word that is already used in D&D to a totally different thing and the Action Point Enchantments (short of APE) accurately describes what they really are.

Yeah FvS do need more signature weapons it's really limiting right now...either that or the bonus needs to be increase..alot +1to-hit/+2 damage is pathetic+1 to-hit and +2 damage is equivalent to two feats. How many feats you gain per level? Does it sound weak now? Its not weak at all, way more powerful than it should be.

thats going to happen regardless at least the PrE system makes it easier for a newer player to spotWell, they are sign of bad design. Power should grow gradually, not in leaps.

Failedlegend

12-03-2012, 10:04 PM

Blacksmith I'm sorry I'm not trying to be mean but you may as well the creators of tetris that you don't like stacking blocks...their not going to change the way the entire game functions because you prefer a lower power setting (which most of your complaints can be self-enforced) at this time there's not point debating this with you any further since this is clearly not the game you want to play.

BlackSmith81

12-09-2012, 11:44 AM

Blacksmith I'm sorry I'm not trying to be mean but you may as well the creators of tetris that you don't like stacking blocks...Your metaphor is lacking or either you didn't read my post carefully enough/understand the game the online version is based upon.
I love stacking blocks but in DDO its not (anymore) about skill how to get all different kind of pieces to mix and match to have best out come. Its about having huge, three different kind of blocks that you slam together. To me that does not sound like tetris, more like bowling.

their not going to change the way the entire game functions because you prefer a lower power setting (which most of your complaints can be self-enforced) at this time there's not point debating this with you any further since this is clearly not the game you want to play.
I fail to see how D&D 3½ is anyway "lower power setting" and I also fail to see how current DDO is high power setting.
In D&D getting someone tripped, feared or blind is something from surviving is almost an miracle and getting +1 to hit means the character is effectively (at least) one level higher he normally would be in melee situations.
In DDO there is so much power build up that the NPC's need to match it thus there is no real feel of power or either there is no more challenge, both bad things to have in a game. It is not high power to make 1000 points of damage if one of the targets has 10 000 HPs. Making 20 points of damage to target that has 100 HPs is lot more earth shaking.

Sorry, but the action point enhancements sure do increase the numbers the characters have and do but they do not increase the actual power level in the game. They force the developers to move the game towards big numbers, little functions.

HastyPudding

12-09-2012, 12:16 PM

bigolbear

12-09-2012, 01:15 PM

Failedlegend

12-09-2012, 01:18 PM

People keep talking about the sorcerer PrE's, as in there being 5 of them (possibly 6 but I never heard of a 3rd type). They say there is only room for 3 trees, but I had an idea.

Split up the savants into 2 trees instead of 4. Have a Storm Savant (ice and lightning) and an Earth Savant (fire and acid). This gives 2 savant PrE's, and then adds the Acolyte of the Skin to make 3.

Now, if they had another PrE in mind, you could put all 4 savants into 1 tree, then add the acolyte, and that leaves room for another. You could have 4 separate trees inside the savant PrE, each dealing with a specific element and have them connected only to themselves, so as to prevent generalization, and name it Elemental Savant.

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure the Devs have already confirmed that Savant will be treated as one PrE with a drop-down to select the relevant element, than of course Acolyte of the Skin is the second but that begs the question what is the third?

Sidenote: Savant should be extended to include versions for Force/Repair (think its called Argent Savant)
Translated into DDO this is what I few Prestige Classes I wouldn't mind seeing added

Incantatrix? Free Meta Feats, Reduced or even free meta cost, Arty like bonuses to wands/scrolls, Ghost touch, true sight, Banish/Teleport/Greater Teleport SLA, Immune to Energy Drain and Insta-Kills, A X/Rest ability that grants quicken for Y amount of seconds.

Nightmare Spinner? Immune to Fear, Extra Spell Slots, New Metamagic (Nightmare Infusion) adds a scaling shaken effect to any spells which can stack up to 3 times the first time dealing 1d6 damage, the second dealing 2d6 damage than the 3rd and beyond time dealing 3d6, X Times a Day you can attempt to Insta-kill a creature affected by Nightmare infusion (10+cha mod+sorc level), anyone within 5 ft of you is subject to the fear spell for 3 seconds on a failed save (10+cha mod+sorc level),

Blood Mage? Bonus to Concentration (adds level to Concentration check), Can convert HP to SP (uses blood to increase SP Pool), Free Die Hard feat, deals bleeding damage on spells, DR/Bludgeoning, a single target attack that allows the user to cause a enemioes blood to try to escape from its body does HUGE damage but has a really long cooldown...like 10 minutes or something, A Monk/air savant/FvS type jump except leaves trails of blood behind causing bleeding damage to any enemies you pass (technically your supposed to be teleporting from one monster to the next bursting out of their blood)

Sidenote: Nightmare Spinner and Blood Mage would actually be pretty good Prestige classes to cherry pick some stuff to add to AotSs repitoire to give it a bit more oomph

<Colour> Star Adept? Sorc Level/DR (type is based on colour ie. Green = Adamantine) Natural Armor Bonus, Str/Con Bonus, Dexterity Penalty, Bonus to unarmed damage,dark vision, Fortification (100% by end), gain some Construct aspects (immune to disease, breathing & can be healed by repair), <Colour> Tinge to skin...maybe a Crystal construct like look, Repair Amp, "Precious Gem" (based on chosen colour) Perfection capstone ability your race is changed to Living Construct, gain even more DR, Str and Con, become immune to poison, stunning, death affects, paralysis and neg energy drain (and a few other necromatic abilities), Is healed by <chosen color> element and gains the die hard feat but divine healing is only half as effective (Immune? or like 10% effective)

Sidenote: Colors - Green = Emerald/Acid/Adamantine, Red = Ruby/Fire/Flametouched Iron, White = Diamond/Cold/Silver, Blue = Sapphire/Electric/Mithral, Black = Obsidian/Neg Energy/Byeshk, Purple = Amethyst/Force/Crystal

As for Warmage, Eldritch Knight, Arcanamach and other Battlemage type Prestiges along with prestiges that are clearly meant for more than one class like Ultimate Magus or Sacred Fist I'd rather see implemented as "Hybrid" PrEs...take sacred fist for example it would look something like this (based on most recent things posted by devs)

Tier 1 Bonus: Monk1/Divine1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Bonus: Monk2/Divine2 CL 6
Tier 3 Bonus: Monk4/Divine4 CL 9
Tier 4 Bonus: Monk5/Divine5 CL 12
Tier 5 Bonus: Monk6/Divine6 CL 15
Tier 6 Bonus: Monk7/Divine7 CL 18
Capstone: Monk8/Divine8 CL 20

So as you can see a Cleric 18/Monk2 would be able to take up to Tier 2 in the prestige tree

So an Example Would be say a Cleric12/Monk6/Fighter2 and his 3 trees could be Radiant Servant Tier 4/Shintao Monk Tier 2/Sacred Fist Tier 4...between the RS healing aura and the Monk Healing Punch this build would probably be really good at keeping everyone healed whilst still being able to hold his/her own as a warrior...I could go into detail but you get the idea.

-Avalon-

12-09-2012, 05:10 PM

Ok, first off, been away a bit of time (from forums, not game), and I just woke up and have not really finished waking up fully... so be cautioned :D

3.5 was wonderfully balanced IMO. One of the primary reasons it worked was that when picking a PrC, you had to forego taking levels in something else... but not only that... the PrC's were often 5 or 10 level classes. In DDO, the way they chose to implement them was to add enh lines that, for the most part, are 3 tier additions to the already existing system.

This creates two problems (that I think the devs have handled well, but is lacking nonetheless):
1- Compression of 10 levels of power into 3 Tiers
2- Continuance of progression in primary classes WHILE leveling in a PrE

The reason they seem so powerful, is because of these 2 things. Anytime you condense 10 into 3, it will be 3 times the power (not just games, but pretty much everything... think about OJ or Pine Sol). Add onto that, there is no loss of primary power to add in the gains of a PrE. There is only a minor loss of Secondary power- IE enhancements, due to spending a few action points into PrE's instead of something else. I spend more points on being able to cast spells in armor than I do on Palemaster, btw, so IMO the amount spent on PrE's is just laughable (7 pts to have PMII and Wraith+Vampire vs 10 to have -10% ASF in Heavy Armor)

The only PrE I think has it mostly right, is Archmage. It is 5 tiers for 5 levels. In 3.5 Archmage was 5 levels (IIRC), so translated into 5 tiers? Works. But you still have no subbing out your main class for it, this I am mostly fine with as long as the power creep is still roughly the same. 10 lvl PrC's should translate into 10 Tiers. Palemaster, Kensai, etc etc, should be 10 tier enhancements (2/4/6/8/10/12/14/16/18/20)... spread the power out.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for Rangers... wow... that discussion has been had before, I still think my idea for making a BSB (Base Spellcasting Bonus) is the way to go... too often I see paladins/rangers as ignoring they even have spells, or only using them when soloing (sometimes not even then, this I know from listening to friends relate stories of them playing their toons)... this would be fixed by adding in an amount of BSB (sort of like BAB) where every class advances your spellcasting ability even if it doesn't have spells as part of the class (reason: just as a fighter still advances in fighting ability when he takes 2 levels of wizard, so should a wizard continue gaining casting ability (caster level) when taking a few levels of fighter... neither of them STOPPED using their abilities just because they dipped into another class)

I think rangers SHOULD get a pet like druids... the only reasons they do not, is because druids make money for the game (rangers do not) and failure to backwards program (druids are recent, so they are cooler, rangers are ancient and therefore not as cool)... If they did go back and fix prior items based on newer things, then rangers probably still wouldn't because of the money issue.

At the very least, I think BSB should be a reality, not because I came up with it, but because it would solve the disparity between spellcasting and non-spellcasting. We see builds all the time that are 12 Ftr/6 Rng/2 Mnk, or 12 Rog/6 Ftr/2 Rng, etc etc... a lot of 3 class mixes that break on the natural lines set up due entirely to PrE's... But how often do we see 12 Wiz/6 Clr/2 ftr, or 12 Clr/6 Ftr/2 Rog, or anything in the same sense? None. Why? Loss of casting level. Not so much loss of spells, because we see people who have chosen to go burn instead of insta-kill a good bit, so that isn't the issue. The problem is that caster levels break when you cross-class. Not even 12 Wiz/6 Sor/2 Brd (all arcane)... so it isn't even as simple as 'keep it in same type)...

If pure melees had a 1/3 progression, hybrids had 2/3, and pures had full BSB progression... think that would fix it. 12 Wiz/6 Ftr/2 Pal would have 15 BSB then, and not be SOO bad... 12 Clr/8 Wiz would still have a 20 BSB and be very viable as a thought at least.

Sorry if this seems off-topic, but in relation to the Rangers issue that was brought up, it makes a huge difference. 20 Rng would have 12 or 13 BSB (not sure how it would calculate) but if they then made summons equal to BSB for the CR's, then their summon nature's ally IV would summon a 12 or 13 CR creature. Add in augment, druid past lives, etc, and it would be even stronger, and maybe be worth more than just window dressing. And the summon's need fixing, sense at 25th lvl, doing an EE quest at roughly same level... that Summon Monster IX spell summoning CR 16 creatures?? Who uses these spells?!? Even PMIII's action point bought skeletons are abysmally low for anything past 20... even though the Epic Destinies continue to buff our caster levels? 25th lvl, with proper items and destinies, could have 26-28 Caster Level (I believe)... so why can we not summon better creatures than we could when we were 17?

Back to main topic: (I apologize for being a bit wandering again) Since it is impossible to emulate D&D, I do not see them ever putting into place a system where you stop leveling your primary classes to start leveling a secondary class (IE PrC)... in that case, my only wish is that they at least break them down into a LOT more little tiers rather than continue lumping 3.333 levels of a PrC into a single tier of PrE, because that REALLY throws the power curve for a loop, and if they are planning on doing it like destinies are done, then 5-6 tiers is a heck of a lot better than THREE (I'd prefer TEN, but 5 or 6 will work fine I suppose)

EnjoyTheJourney

12-09-2012, 05:43 PM

I agree with Blacksmith81's assertion that PrEs inflate numbers, not power, because NPCs are balanced against the available options. One of the unintended casualties of big numbers and tax-code-like complexity in PrEs is that casuals either read the forums (they generally don't, though; they're casuals), they get mentoring from a guild mate (possible, but uneven in who gets reached), or they fall behind in the power curve, over time. That creates a bigger retention problem for new and casual players, even if it satisfies some vets. I'd favor lower number boosts from PrEs, in large part for that reason.

There's another problem that arises from mixing and matching PrEs (ie: take as many PrEs as you can, whenever you want), and that affects everybody. The devs have a built-in incentive to reduce balance problems and bug fixes; both cost them goodwill from players and fixing those problems is not likely to be a source of great enjoyment to the devs. With a mix and match PrE system in place, the devs have an incentive to keep all the most easily reached parts of any PrE as bland and generic as possible, so that whatever combination is put together by players, there are relatively few bugs to fix and the power curve for all characters doesn't shift remarkably upward.

Compare that to a situation in which players can only select one PrE per character; in that situation, the devs have a lot more freedom to make even the lower reaches of all PrEs meaningfully distinct in their focus.

Long story short, the most frequent posters in this forum calling for "infinite variety" will end up with dozens of versions of vanilla, if the "mix and match" PrE system stays in place.

Failedlegend

12-09-2012, 05:47 PM

3.5 was wonderfully balanced IMO. One of the primary reasons it worked was that when picking a PrC, you had to forego taking levels in something else... but not only that... the PrC's were often 5 or 10 level classes. In DDO, the way they chose to implement them was to add enh lines that, for the most part, are 3 tier additions to the already existing system.

You must have played a different game than me, I mean once I got used to DMing and implemented some choice house rules my home games were fine also my players made characters based on their story not on how powerful they are but when I first started DMing (before I removed the weeds) and if I ever played official game/played in some elses vanilla or close vanilla game at least half the players would have characters who were broken and the roleplayers would be made so useless by this.

This creates two problems (that I think the devs have handled well, but is lacking nonetheless):
1- Compression of 10 levels of power into 3 Tiers
2- Continuance of progression in primary classes WHILE leveling in a PrE

#1 - Their changing it to be 3,6,9,12,15,18,20 so 7 tiers so more than enough break points

#2 Overall there's alot of stuff the classes don't have that their PnP counterparts do and who really cares if their a little stronger as long as the monsters match....this isn't a PvP game its PvE and as long as all the PCs are relatively the same power level (doesn't have to be perfect) its honestly doesnt matter. The point where it would matter is actually if their too weak tyhan it just feels like a bunch of peasents fighting off some sickly goblins instead of heroes fighting gods

10 lvl PrC's should translate into 10 Tiers. Palemaster, Kensai, etc etc, should be 10 tier enhancements (2/4/6/8/10/12/14/16/18/20)... spread the power out.

I'd be fine with this. I'd like to see how you would break up existing PrEs from today though

As for Rangers... wow... that discussion has been had before, I still think my idea for making a BSB (Base Spellcasting Bonus) is the way to go... too often I see paladins/rangers as ignoring they even have spells, or only using them when soloing (sometimes not even then, this I know from listening to friends relate stories of them playing their toons)... this would be fixed by adding in an amount of BSB (sort of like BAB) where every class advances your spellcasting ability even if it doesn't have spells as part of the class (reason: just as a fighter still advances in fighting ability when he takes 2 levels of wizard, so should a wizard continue gaining casting ability (caster level) when taking a few levels of fighter... neither of them STOPPED using their abilities just because they dipped into another class)

Not disagreeing with you but I personal prefer that this kind of stuff be handled by "Hybrid" PrEs (see my last post)

I think rangers SHOULD get a pet like druids... the only reasons they do not, is because druids make money for the game (rangers do not) and failure to backwards program (druids are recent, so they are cooler, rangers are ancient and therefore not as cool)... If they did go back and fix prior items based on newer things, then rangers probably still wouldn't because of the money issue.

At the very least, I think BSB should be a reality, not because I came up with it, but because it would solve the disparity between spellcasting and non-spellcasting. We see builds all the time that are 12 Ftr/6 Rng/2 Mnk, or 12 Rog/6 Ftr/2 Rng, etc etc... a lot of 3 class mixes that break on the natural lines set up due entirely to PrE's... But how often do we see 12 Wiz/6 Clr/2 ftr, or 12 Clr/6 Ftr/2 Rog, or anything in the same sense? None. Why? Loss of casting level. Not so much loss of spells, because we see people who have chosen to go burn instead of insta-kill a good bit, so that isn't the issue. The problem is that caster levels break when you cross-class. Not even 12 Wiz/6 Sor/2 Brd (all arcane)... so it isn't even as simple as 'keep it in same type)...

Actually the tech for companions wasn't finished until Artificers were released and I don't know if you remember but it was buggy as hell (Druids as well), still is so it's got nothing to do with them being P2P they will probably add Animal Companions to Rangers later....although I'd only approve if they had to choose their combat style a-la PnP...would be nice to seem them get a few more spells (variety I mean not spell slots)

Summons are underpowered in general and should scale with level

Sorry for Paraphrasing yeah Av, Anyways I agree it really should scale with caster level or at least heighten should cause it to do so, also IMO the PM "Summons" should actually function like Druid/Arty Companions with the enhancements allowing you to go down the "Knight", "Archer" or "Mage" line with each having further customization from there (all of each "types" enhancements would have the type pre-req of course so the knight couldn't take fire magic spell power)

Back to main topic: (I apologize for being a bit wandering again) Since it is impossible to emulate D&D, I do not see them ever putting into place a system where you stop leveling your primary classes to start leveling a secondary class (IE PrC)... in that case, my only wish is that they at least break them down into a LOT more little tiers rather than continue lumping 3.333 levels of a PrC into a single tier of PrE, because that REALLY throws the power curve for a loop, and if they are planning on doing it like destinies are done, then 5-6 tiers is a heck of a lot better than THREE (I'd prefer TEN, but 5 or 6 will work fine I suppose)

The plan is to change it to 3,6,9,12,15,18,20 so they have realized the 6,12,18 is a bit limiting.

danzig138

12-10-2012, 09:47 AM

In D&D getting someone tripped, feared or blind is something from surviving is almost an miracle

Only if someone is doing something very wrong.

Indoran

12-10-2012, 12:51 PM

Avalon I have mastered 3.0 and 3.5 since they came out (2000 and 2003) They are not balanced systems.

Any argument regarding how 10 levels of Pre are ideal just because D&D 3.5 was balanced has a false premise. It's not balanced. Not even Core (v.g. polymorph any object and compare fighters vs wizards power)

spreading out Pre power is a good idea. but you should not resort to saying D&D is balanced, that system can and has been broken in SOOOO many ways (which is why I love it, as I like to DM for powergamers).

The thing with 10 tiers is that how much work it is for them to design that? and program and get rid of the bugs... I prefer 3 o 5 tiers but debugged.

Failed legend: regarding rangers having to choose a style. Do you really need to nerf them? how useful are pets? really? seriously? pets are not that useful (at least not in endgame) and Ranger is not the powerhouse some ppl say it was years ago.

Rangers get a bit of Flexibility thx to having both styles... I see nothing wrong with that... when playing you want to have fun and options allow you to do that

Indoran

12-10-2012, 12:57 PM

/.../

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. Again, I invite PMs for those who prefer to voice their opinions that way.

EDIT: See a mockup/explanation on page 29 of this thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4250712&postcount=578

The Enhancement UI is ugly, and has lots of lag... is there a way to make it pretty and not so laggy? for example maybe have the client handle it until you hit accept?

Also I have seen angst regarding power levels... Dont be affraid of power gamers enjoying things, we like to understand systems and try to optimize with the options given. If anything hear us, dont fall prey to the "roleplayers" fears, think balance (of the classes) and fun. Some of us want flashy options (Read the book of nine swords!!! the D&D supplement... it's their "melee done right" book).

Alavatar

12-13-2012, 09:36 AM

The new enhancements system will not be up for some time. We're planning on giving it an extended beta on Lamannia before going live with it - much longer than we traditionally have with our game systems.

Any chance of a timeline update? :D
Boogity-boo?!

Looking for any information at all. :) I would be happy with a "Our internal target is to put the Enhancement System on Lammania in Q1 2013" because that would be super.

Seikojin

12-13-2012, 11:36 AM

I think the enhancement system will be after update 17 or 18. So when Lam gets those, then you should start hearing about it. Doing update 17 is pretty big in it's own right.

Seikojin

12-13-2012, 01:27 PM

You must have played a different game than me, I mean once I got used to DMing and implemented some choice house rules my home games were fine also my players made characters based on their story not on how powerful they are but when I first started DMing (before I removed the weeds) and if I ever played official game/played in some elses vanilla or close vanilla game at least half the players would have characters who were broken and the roleplayers would be made so useless by this.
Every Pen and Paper game in their rules say they are a guidline to do your role playing. And they encourage house rules. I look at ddo as a pnp game with house rules ;) 3.5 is really balanced. I dunno how people get confused with the balance in the system.

#1 - Their changing it to be 3,6,9,12,15,18,20 so 7 tiers so more than enough break points I do like the outlook for the changes coming up for enhancements. It would be nice to see some capstone pre enhancements that really shine.

Actually the tech for companions wasn't finished until Artificers were released and I don't know if you remember but it was buggy as hell (Druids as well), still is so it's got nothing to do with them being P2P they will probably add Animal Companions to Rangers later....although I'd only approve if they had to choose their combat style a-la PnP...would be nice to seem them get a few more spells (variety I mean not spell slots)I would like to see more ranger spells too. I think Ranger pets will be up before the end of 2013. It takes some work and testing, but the companion system is working, even if the AI has bugs in it. Same with hirlings.

Sorry for Paraphrasing yeah Av, Anyways I agree it really should scale with caster level or at least heighten should cause it to do so, also IMO the PM "Summons" should actually function like Druid/Arty Companions with the enhancements allowing you to go down the "Knight", "Archer" or "Mage" line with each having further customization from there (all of each "types" enhancements would have the type pre-req of course so the knight couldn't take fire magic spell power)
I think it would be cool if you spec down a path too, and the form you can take is dependant on it.

Avalon I have mastered 3.0 and 3.5 since they came out (2000 and 2003) They are not balanced systems.

Any argument regarding how 10 levels of Pre are ideal just because D&D 3.5 was balanced has a false premise. It's not balanced. Not even Core (v.g. polymorph any object and compare fighters vs wizards power)

spreading out Pre power is a good idea. but you should not resort to saying D&D is balanced, that system can and has been broken in SOOOO many ways (which is why I love it, as I like to DM for powergamers). I was about to lump your inbalance statement above, but you gave more insight into how skewed your perspective is.

You don't 'master' a ruleset or guideline. You use them to play a game. And if you 'mastered' the game, that is only relative to the games you play with the people you play with. So there is no way you could say the system is inbalanced when you come across someone who can handle the system better than your DM/GM, or yourself.

How DDO and PnP DnD handle Pre's are completely different, so I can't compare them in the same way. However, they work pretty well in their respective circles. DDO's is nowhere near finished, so no one could say if it is ultimately balanced or not. Also it is always changing and developing, so again, cannot be accruately gauged on balance. There are a crapton of Pre's in PnP. Each has merit and use, and they all have unique balances. And I am only going off of official ones, not fan made ones. I do feel that many Pre's out there in PnP are potentially inbalanced, but I haven't gone through them all.

I bolded the action word for your perspective. There are a many different kind of gamers out there, so limiting yourself to one playertype limits your dm/gm style to work with them.

Hmm, mentioning polymorph as a power spell. I have seen this subject before. I remember in the pnp forums a topic on this and there were plenty of dissection on this, so I still fail to see how that makes wizards stronger than fighters. Wizards have a wide array of spells to make them more survivable, but without their spells they are far weaker than the fighter of the same level. Also wizards have limits to their spells for that exact reason.

The thing with 10 tiers is that how much work it is for them to design that? and program and get rid of the bugs... I prefer 3 o 5 tiers but debugged.
The system they are putting together seems a lot easier to build and work with than the current system. Plus it allows them to make specializations that can really provide appropriate abilities for that Pre/path.

Failed legend: regarding rangers having to choose a style. Do you really need to nerf them? how useful are pets? really? seriously? pets are not that useful (at least not in endgame) and Ranger is not the powerhouse some ppl say it was years ago.

Rangers get a bit of Flexibility thx to having both styles... I see nothing wrong with that... when playing you want to have fun and options allow you to do that
I would like to see rangers have more depth and specialization for each path as well. That would be one of the perks and tradeoffs. You choose to do melee, you really forego the perks of ranged combat as a ranger to really show your capability with two weapons.
Pets are pretty useful. Endgame? The only reason a pet isn't useful at endgame is because they lack the gear we load ourselves with. And ultimately, that is the point. They are pets. They aren't meant to solo the quest for you. And if your pet takes aggro from that boss, it has spared you of some damage. So it has done its job.
Rangers are strong like lightning bolt is strong. You have to know how to manage mobs and use your abilities appropriately to really dominate in battles.

Alavatar

12-13-2012, 01:27 PM

Doing update 17 is pretty big in it's own right.

When is Update 17 coming? Turbine quote or press release, please. :)

I was under the impression that Turbine is on a 2-month cycle for Updates. Since Update 16 was November 2012 that would put Update 17 in January 2013 (especially since we just received Update 16.1 this week and Lammania has not received Update 17, yet).

Based on Eladrin saying the new Enhancement System will not be available before the end of the year ... it stands to reason that Update 17 or Update 18 (March 2013) could have the new Enhancement System.

Maybe it will and maybe it won't. Thus, the question in the Official Turbine Discussions. :)

Seikojin

12-13-2012, 01:41 PM

When is Update 17 coming? Turbine quote or press release, please. :)

I was under the impression that Turbine is on a 2-month cycle for Updates. Since Update 16 was November 2012 that would put Update 17 in January 2013 (especially since we just received Update 16.1 this week and Lammania has not received Update 17, yet).

Based on Eladrin saying the new Enhancement System will not be available before the end of the year ... it stands to reason that Update 17 or Update 18 (March 2013) could have the new Enhancement System.

Maybe it will and maybe it won't. Thus, the question in the Official Turbine Discussions. :)

http://ddowiki.com/page/In_development

It lists u17 for december, but I completely agree that it may be after december for u17. I know Mabar really threw a wrench in things, but that may not prevent u17 coming before the new year starts. Ultimately depends on bugs and progress.

Alavatar

12-13-2012, 01:51 PM

http://ddowiki.com/page/In_development

It lists u17 for december, but I completely agree that it may be after december for u17. I know Mabar really threw a wrench in things, but that may not prevent u17 coming before the new year starts. Ultimately depends on bugs and progress.

That's the DDO Wiki, not a quote from an official source. I went there to check as well. :( Nearly everything on the Wiki without a quote or source should be taken with a brick of salt.

Seikojin

12-13-2012, 02:05 PM

That's the DDO Wiki, not a quote from an official source. I went there to check as well. :( Nearly everything on the Wiki without a quote or source should be taken with a brick of salt.

Yeah, they also put their sources if they have them. That is why I put only that. I am sure on the forums they had a date, but I am sure after the mabar event, it has changed.

Alavatar

12-13-2012, 02:12 PM

Yeah, they also put their sources if they have them. That is why I put only that. I am sure on the forums they had a date, but I am sure after the mabar event, it has changed.

If it was said on the forums by a Turbine person it would have been linked as a source on the DDO Wiki. ;) The DDO Wiki folks are generally pretty sharp and keep their eyes out for that kind of information, so the fact there is no source linked suggests there was no date ever given for Update 17. I suspect the date on the wiki is just speculation by the wiki editor since there have been features specific to Update 17 that have been brought up by Turbine employees

So, basically, no one knows (or has known) except Turbine when Update 17 is coming out.:)

Uproar

12-14-2012, 10:52 AM

So here is the mockup that was promised.

To make it easier to digest, I’ve copy-pasted a section direct from Eladrin’s spec below. Again, all of this is subject to change.

In practice, the trees will probably look different, with more sideways arrows, etc but it should give you a pretty good idea of what we have in mind.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/MadFloyd/EnhancementMockup.jpg

A single classed character will have their racial tree and the three trees that are associated with their class displayed. These trees correspond to the three Prestige Enhancement lines tied to the class.

A multiclassed character can change a class enhancement tree with 0 points spent in it to a different class tree that is available to them using the drop down menus. For example, if this character multiclassed into Wizard, it could change the Rogue: Thief-Acrobat tree into Wizard: Archmage, Wizard: Pale Master, or Wizard: Wild Mage. Trees that have points spent in them cannot be changed to other trees. The racial tree cannot be swapped out for a different one.

Each race will have an enhancement that adds another specific enhancement tree to the character’s available list of trees. Elves and Half-Elves, for instance, gain access to the Arcane Archer tree if they take the racial enhancement to unlock it. Dwarves gain access to Stalwart Defender. The player can choose to unlock the tree and then not use it, if they so desire. Trees unlocked in this way use the character’s total character level instead of class level for prerequisites and effects.

Initially, players will have the bottom row of enhancements available to them. As players spend enhancement points within the current tree, additional tiers of enhancements will become available to them. Enhancements will no longer have a “total action points spent” prerequisite, this is replaced by a “total action points spent in this tree” prerequisite, and is defined by the tier the enhancement is on. (5 * [Tier of Enhancement – 1])

Most enhancements will be able to be selected multiple times – the player will do this by selecting the same enhancement repeatedly, incrementing the number of times it has been taken, giving greater effects, up to a limit. (For example, Sneak Attack Damage can be taken 5 times.) High tiers of most enhancements will have class level requirements.

Enhancements that are unavailable to the player are greyed out. Enhancements can still have feat or class level prerequisites – if a player does not meet these prerequisites, a red border or lock display is added to the icon. This should not be subtle, it should be absolutely clear to the player that there’s something wrong here, and they need to do something if they want this enhancement. Players can figure out what requirements they’re missing by viewing the tooltip.

Some enhancements have other enhancements as a prerequisites chain. These are shown in the mockup with arrows in between them. Knife Attack leads to Knife Damage, which then leads to Knife Specialization. An enhancement that has another as a prerequisite cannot have a rank higher than its prerequisite, so to get Knife Damage III, the player must have Knife Attack III. To get Knife Spec IV, the player must have both Knife Attack IV and Knife Damage IV. Most enhancements cost 1 Action Point. Rare ones will cost more. Costs do not increase each time you take an enhancement.

Each enhancement tree will have a line of enhancements that are automatically granted to the character based on the number of points spent in that tree. For example, when a character puts any 10 points in the Assassin tree, they will gain the Assassin I enhancement if they meet all other prerequisites. (Rogue level 6 in this case.) If they do not meet the prerequisites, then they will NOT gain the enhancement until they do. (Any time a player modifies their feats or gains a level, we’ll have to check access to the auto-granted enhancements.) These are shown in the mockup as the horizontal row of enhancements beneath the tree name.

Players should be able to spend action points anywhere in the world by opening up the Enhancements UI, without needing to seek out a trainer. Enhancements can be reset on a tree-by-tree basis using the “Reset Enhancements” button near the bottom of each pane, which is only available in public areas. This has a platinum cost associated with it based on the number of points currently spent in the tree.

Late to the conversation I see, but let's put it simply: You make this game Wow -- and many will go play Wow. I come here to play D&D -- and that's mostly about class design and all its glorious complexities.

Devonian

12-14-2012, 02:42 PM

Late to the conversation I see, but let's put it simply: You make this game Wow -- and many will go play Wow. I come here to play D&D -- and that's mostly about class design and all its glorious complexities.

All complexity is not equal.

D&D has Complexity that arises from many interlinked entities which have differing behaviours whose costs and benefits within a mechanical ecosystem (Good) This is, simply put, complexity that arises from the game.

It also has complexity arising from poor interface, which obfuscates those relationships and what arises from them. (Bad) This is complexity that comes between me and the game.

Now, I've been playing D&D in some iteration since the days of THAC0 and B.A.D.D. These changes are nothing like WoW, in fact I'm more bothered by the way they shove the actual die mechanics at the end of descriptions now like some kind of dirty secret. Its the same setup that they use in Epic Destanies, and few if any player shave taken a look at that and fled to Azeroth.

Hell, if you want to be a purist, then using action points as intended would be a small pool of triggered buffs, not an extra layer of badly presented character options with uncertain and frequently badly communicated character options.

Artos_Fabril

12-19-2012, 07:08 PM

Just a quick update:

We have a number of enhancement trees up for review on the Mournlands forum and we've been getting some very constructive feedback that we're currently assessing.

As the trees get a little more polished I still plan to start posting them here.

Until then...
Hey, MadFloyd, Is this still a thing? Maybe an early (insert winter holiday of choice) present?

Artos_Fabril

12-19-2012, 08:05 PM

Jasparion

12-19-2012, 08:50 PM

Late to the conversation I see, but let's put it simply: You make this game Wow -- and many will go play Wow. I come here to play D&D -- and that's mostly about class design and all its glorious complexities.

Serious question here. Could you please point to the bit where that is being taken away?

Im pretty sure we are getting a lot more choice, not less.

Daemoneyes

12-28-2012, 10:08 PM

Eta?

Aashrym

12-28-2012, 10:36 PM

Eta?

Not this year? :D

In just over a week we can have a celebration of the one year anniversary of this thread. My guess is February with the anniversary updates.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-29-2012, 03:46 AM

Not this year? :D

In just over a week we can have a celebration of the one year anniversary of this thread. My guess is February with the anniversary updates.

http://ballooncanton.com/wp-content/uploads/gsc_banner235x235.jpg

I'll bring the balloon. I figure a big one should be enough, one with plenty of hot air should represent this thread just fine.... ;)

As for the enhancements debate here, I'm long past caring. I just want 2013 to be a much better year for DDO, especially the dev team itself, one where bugs get patched and code gets much tighter.

As the competition vs DDO strengthens (Forgotten Realms based Neverwinter Online for one), let's hope the dev team comes out swinging, and the game stays afloat for years to come.

Sezneg

12-31-2012, 11:19 PM

http://ballooncanton.com/wp-content/uploads/gsc_banner235x235.jpg

I'll bring the balloon. I figure a big one should be enough, one with plenty of hot air should represent this thread just fine.... ;)

As for the enhancements debate here, I'm long past caring. I just want 2013 to be a much better year for DDO, especially the dev team itself, one where bugs get patched and code gets much tighter.

As the competition vs DDO strengthens (Forgotten Realms based Neverwinter Online for one), let's hope the dev team comes out swinging, and the game stays afloat for years to come.

I wouldn't be worried about neverwinter online poaching DDO players in large amounts; it's not even an attempt at implementing a DnD ruleset. It is sort of like a 3rd person over the shoulder camera diablo clone from what they've shone of combat. I don't think, apart from the setting, there will be much in the way of overlapping interest.

What DOES compete with DDO is the slew of games that have gone F2P over the last year and a half. F2P players have a lot of choice in what to play between Lotro (which I think poaches as many DDO players as any other F2P game), Old Republic, Warhammer and more.

I'm very much looking forward to the enhancement update, as this has been something the game has needed for a long time.

Alavatar

01-03-2013, 03:45 PM

I think the Official Turbine Discussions have been Unofficially ignored.

Daemoneyes

01-03-2013, 06:00 PM

I think the Official Turbine Discussions have been Unofficially ignored.

jepp
so lets occupy this discussions, i suggest we talk about cat girls! nyah

Failedlegend

01-03-2013, 10:38 PM

jepp
so lets occupy this discussions, i suggest we talk about cat girls! nyah

We COULD legitimately gets cat girls (and other anthros) in DDO with a shapeshifting race called the Hengeyokai

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2009/359/8/8/Cat_Girl_by_pontus997.jpg

Daemoneyes

01-04-2013, 09:54 AM

Hengeyokai can shift from Mostly human to hybrid to anthro...so both :)
Great!

No...also the dialog in your pic is inappropriate :eek:
0o really? (if so a gm/dev will surely remove it)
then its just good that nobody is looking in this thread :D

ps
i really wonder how long it will take till someone notice the derail, my guess is a month if nobody sends them a pm

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

01-04-2013, 10:29 AM

I wouldn't be worried about neverwinter online poaching DDO players in large amounts; it's not even an attempt at implementing a DnD ruleset. It is sort of like a 3rd person over the shoulder camera diablo clone from what they've shone of combat. I don't think, apart from the setting, there will be much in the way of overlapping interest.

This is not true. They said the same exact thing of DDO and I think we've done just fine.

As for Neverwinter Online it will do much better than you are forecasting. Games like Old Republic and Warhammer weren't much a challenge when they were in their prime, and we are long past that date. The real challenge will come in games like NWO and Elder Scrolls and maybe even Pathfinder, where the game engines will be 6-8 years newer (a decade newer in Pathfinder's case).

Neverwinter will be announcing is arrival on January 8th, they've got the cover of the February PCGamer magazine, which is downloadable on January 8th from several sites. And in my honest opinion, I hope its good so that Turbine has a bit of competition. Maybe then, these updates will be coded a bit tighter, with less bugs. One can only hope!

http://images-cdn.perfectworld.com/www/18/c6/18c6ecab24220f42e69519cfd6090f7d1356051567.jpg

Failedlegend

01-04-2013, 10:30 AM

Great!

0o really? (if so a gm/dev will surely remove it)
then its just good that nobody is looking in this thread :D

ps
i really wonder how long it will take till someone notice the derail, my guess is a month if nobody sends them a pm

do us all a favor and don't attract dev attention by breaking rules tactics like that already broke Madfloyd

Madfloyd's office is still in the same place, and he is still found within during normal work hours.

You all just wore him out. Everyone needs a break once in a while.

and may have upset Varg

Updated enhancements are not almost here. Designs are not final. They'll be released when they are ready.

The recently discussed and discovered UI isn't a sign of any "new" developments, and has likely been accidentally there since Update 14.

Daemoneyes

01-04-2013, 10:51 AM

do us all a favor and don't attract dev attention by breaking rules tactics like that already broke Madfloyd

and may have upset Varg

That pic is still in the kawai corner not in the hentai :P
And its not for getting attention and as this thread is already dead it cant be derail.

Well maybe we should speak a few honory words for this thread and then lets bury it before it starts to stink.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

01-04-2013, 10:53 AM

That pic is still in the kawai corner not in the hentai :P
And its not for getting attention and as this thread is already dead it cant be derail.

Well maybe we should speak a few honory words for this thread and then lets bury it before it starts to stink.

I was just thinking the same thing. 2 days away from a YEAR LATER, and we still dont know jack really.

Failedlegend

01-04-2013, 11:01 AM

That pic is still in the kawai corner not in the hentai :P

Check again as it's been removed

I was just thinking the same thing. 2 days away from a YEAR LATER, and we still dont know jack really.

Indeed, I get that this is going to take alot of work but the communtiy has given ALOT of feedback and we've heard NOTHING since...not even a little sneak peak a SINGLE enhancement (subject to change) for us to salivate over...the longer they wait the less we will be able to change before it goes live

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

01-04-2013, 12:02 PM

Indeed, I get that this is going to take alot of work but the communtiy has given ALOT of feedback and we've heard NOTHING since...not even a little sneak peak a SINGLE enhancement (subject to change) for us to salivate over...the longer they wait the less we will be able to change before it goes live

The community really has stepped up in this thread, and I've enjoyed reading commentary from both sides. I was always floating about that this was either a red herring (in effect feeling the waters for the impending motu 2012 summer launch) or as a counter to the release of Neverwinter to mute their launch (not to mention to offer another easily navigable/accessible UI for new blood). However I was never one for conspiracy theories so I just always kinda blew those silly thoughts away...

Heck, if a dev is out there that is working on this currently, at least let us know.

Anyhow, this thread has been dead to me for months, so thanks again to the grateful dead, err contributors....

"Truckin got my chips cashed in. Keep truckin, like the do-dah man
Together, more or less in line, just keep truckin on."

murf201

01-04-2013, 12:43 PM

And yep to the person who mentioned eso . The only game i could ever see myself leaving ddo for ! besides warhammer 40k . But we all know 40k is a long shot . Now if you played skyrim how could you not want to jump on eso when it launches . Half the ddo devs them selves will be playing it imo .

bhgiant

01-04-2013, 12:54 PM

I had completely forgotten about this thread. Ah good memories.

/RIP Enhancement Thread

dlsidhe

01-04-2013, 02:23 PM

The community really has stepped up in this thread, and I've enjoyed reading commentary from both sides. I was always floating about that this was either a red herring (in effect feeling the waters for the impending motu 2012 summer launch) or as a counter to the release of Neverwinter to mute their launch (not to mention to offer another easily navigable/accessible UI for new blood). However I was never one for conspiracy theories so I just always kinda blew those silly thoughts away...

Heck, if a dev is out there that is working on this currently, at least let us know.

Anyhow, this thread has been dead to me for months, so thanks again to the grateful dead, err contributors....

"Truckin got my chips cashed in. Keep truckin, like the do-dah man
Together, more or less in line, just keep truckin on."

If you read some of the Lamaland threads, there's still work ongoing with it, but no release timeframe yet even to Lama. The little tidbits that have shown up are promising.

shadereaper33

01-04-2013, 04:59 PM

Check again as it's been removed

Indeed, I get that this is going to take alot of work but the communtiy has given ALOT of feedback and we've heard NOTHING since...not even a little sneak peak a SINGLE enhancement (subject to change) for us to salivate over...the longer they wait the less we will be able to change before it goes live

There was the stuff that leaked onto lamma land a while back. Had info on three trees I believe. Assassin, Thief-Acrobat, and Henshin Mystic. There was a lot of discussion about it on the lamma boards, including more than a few dev comments.

Sezneg

01-05-2013, 09:19 AM

This is not true. They said the same exact thing of DDO and I think we've done just fine.

As for Neverwinter Online it will do much better than you are forecasting. Games like Old Republic and Warhammer weren't much a challenge when they were in their prime, and we are long past that date. The real challenge will come in games like NWO and Elder Scrolls and maybe even Pathfinder, where the game engines will be 6-8 years newer (a decade newer in Pathfinder's case).

Neverwinter will be announcing is arrival on January 8th, they've got the cover of the February PCGamer magazine, which is downloadable on January 8th from several sites. And in my honest opinion, I hope its good so that Turbine has a bit of competition. Maybe then, these updates will be coded a bit tighter, with less bugs. One can only hope!

http://images-cdn.perfectworld.com/www/18/c6/18c6ecab24220f42e69519cfd6090f7d1356051567.jpg

LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fekypen93OY

Watch that garbage. Can you say "DIABLO CLONE"?

Just click your left mouse button for infinite magic missiles! You'll notice there's no resource system in the UI, it's all just cooldown based.

I'm not saying it can't be a good action hack'n slash... just that this is not even an attempt at being DnD. I doubt this is going to have the long term pull on people who have toughed it on in DDO because the people who have done so have largely done it for the rule-set and character build freedom, neither of which will be in Neverwinter Online.

danzig138

01-05-2013, 02:49 PM

I doubt this is going to have the long term pull on people who have toughed it on in DDO because the people who have done so have largely done it for the rule-set and character build freedom, neither of which will be in Neverwinter Online.
Indeed. And from what I hear, if they ever get the Pathfinder game going, it's also not going to actually use the rules in Pathfinder, so I don't much see the point. Of course, with DDO moving ever more quickly away from the base rule set, I accept that if I want to play a D&D game, I'm stuck looking at the nice, but terribly buggy ToEE game.

shadereaper33

01-05-2013, 02:52 PM

LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fekypen93OY

Watch that garbage. Can you say "DIABLO CLONE"?

Just click your left mouse button for infinite magic missiles! You'll notice there's no resource system in the UI, it's all just cooldown based.

I'm not saying it can't be a good action hack'n slash... just that this is not even an attempt at being DnD. I doubt this is going to have the long term pull on people who have toughed it on in DDO because the people who have done so have largely done it for the rule-set and character build freedom, neither of which will be in Neverwinter Online.

Actually, Neverwinter is as close to 4th ed rules as DDO is to 3.5, if not closer. 4th ed. doesn't have a resource system either, just a "cooldown" system with certain abilities being limited to per encouter or per rest. Ultimately though, I think you are correct in that it won't have much of an impact on DDO's player base because it uses a completely different rule set and setting. In fact, the only thing the two games really have in common at all is the Dungeons and Dragons logo.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

01-05-2013, 04:03 PM

Actually, Neverwinter is as close to 4th ed rules as DDO is to 3.5, if not closer. 4th ed. doesn't have a resource system either, just a "cooldown" system with certain abilities being limited to per encouter or per rest. Ultimately though, I think you are correct in that it won't have much of an impact on DDO's player base because it uses a completely different rule set and setting. In fact, the only thing the two games really have in common at all is the Dungeons and Dragons logo.

Actually anyone who's played pen and paper, or read any of the Forgotten Realms books, may be surprised just how much lore is contained in Neverwinter. There's far more than DDO ever had, and by a long shot.

As for its combat, it needs time to mature. It is still under development. The videos released so far are very limited in nature, just showing a few spells/moves. They are in the process of adding more classes. No one has seen party features yet, and character development features have not even been shown yet. It is far too early to use a 1 minute preview video to judge an entire game by.

Furthermore, I feel it will attract at least the attention of quite a few of DDOs faithful when its ready. However, expect the majority of us to say we like DDO better, just because we have played this and are used to this. However, there is a place for both to thrive, and I think Neverwinter will do quite well. I predict some us will find entertainment in playing both games (playing their lessor favorite game just to mix things up).

Sadly, by the shape of this thread, I think Neverwinter's enhancements will be available for public consumption before we get Turbine off their collective rears to get this enhancement UI update ready for prime time.

Aashrym

01-05-2013, 10:30 PM

There was the stuff that leaked onto lamma land a while back. Had info on three trees I believe. Assassin, Thief-Acrobat, and Henshin Mystic. There was a lot of discussion about it on the lamma boards, including more than a few dev comments.

There was a bit on mechanics, war chanters, and spellsingers too. We just saw more discussion on henshin from one of the dev's who seems eager to discuss that one a bit with teasers.

The biggest teaser I saw was arcane spells to swap into spellsinger. Adding wall of sound, wounding whispers, and majestic word seems like they had potential too. I think we ended up looking at 6 or 7 largely competed trees and half of ninja spy. We also had confirmation some of those enhancements would remain while others were already scrapped.

Failedlegend

01-05-2013, 10:55 PM

There was a bit on mechanics

Link??

Aashrym

01-05-2013, 11:26 PM

Link??

I'll hunt one down. From memory it was bomberman style enhancements because time bomb stuck in my mind looking at the tree. I'll edit in with a link if I can find it. There wasn't much discussion on that one. There didn't seem to be a lot of interest compared to monks, assassins, and acrobats.

EDIT: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=394938 had a bit of discussion on it. I didn't see anyone make a "rough-in mechanic" like Trekna did with henshin, acrobat, and assassin. I posted a few things from the leaked tree in a couple of threads but the most were in the posted thread. I didn't notice a dev comment on the mechanic tree.

Some highlights on at the time: time bomb, kills switch, wand and scroll mastery.

At that time all 3 rogue trees were up, henshin, part of ninja spy and there was a comment on shortswords regarding ninja spy, a large portion of war chanter, and the spellsinger tree.

EDIT2: Also, we had confirmation those trees were outdated when we received access to them so a person needs an extra large salt shaker for the grains taken with the posted trees. A lot of what we saw were more like a glimpse of the features but not a good representation of where they were at.

Artos_Fabril

01-06-2013, 01:23 AM

That Assassin tree looks suspiciously familiar... Sometimes it's nice to have your ideas stolen.

Sezneg

01-06-2013, 02:07 AM

I'll hunt one down. From memory it was bomberman style enhancements because time bomb stuck in my mind looking at the tree. I'll edit in with a link if I can find it. There wasn't much discussion on that one. There didn't seem to be a lot of interest compared to monks, assassins, and acrobats.

EDIT: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=394938 had a bit of discussion on it. I didn't see anyone make a "rough-in mechanic" like Trekna did with henshin, acrobat, and assassin. I posted a few things from the leaked tree in a couple of threads but the most were in the posted thread. I didn't notice a dev comment on the mechanic tree.

Some highlights on at the time: time bomb, kills switch, wand and scroll mastery.

At that time all 3 rogue trees were up, henshin, part of ninja spy and there was a comment on shortswords regarding ninja spy, a large portion of war chanter, and the spellsinger tree.

EDIT2: Also, we had confirmation those trees were outdated when we received access to them so a person needs an extra large salt shaker for the grains taken with the posted trees. A lot of what we saw were more like a glimpse of the features but not a good representation of where they were at.

The spellsinger stuff was great. Will be interesting to see if they manage to make a good go at virtuoso... of course making enthrall work with suggestion/mass suggestion and the fatesinger ED stuff alone would be a huge step forward.

Aashrym

01-06-2013, 03:27 AM

The spellsinger stuff was great. Will be interesting to see if they manage to make a good go at virtuoso... of course making enthrall work with suggestion/mass suggestion and the fatesinger ED stuff alone would be a huge step forward.

The direction virts were going was to buff the fascinate family for them and add some swordplay enhancements. I didn't get a sneak at that tree but I'm pretty curious on the implementation.

Sezneg

01-06-2013, 07:18 PM

The direction virts were going was to buff the fascinate family for them and add some swordplay enhancements. I didn't get a sneak at that tree but I'm pretty curious on the implementation.

That's interesting, because any sort of melee improvement would be enticing for warchanters to also grab. They'll need that sort of draw to prevent warchanter from just being splash-bait.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

01-06-2013, 08:00 PM

The biggest teaser I saw was arcane spells to swap into spellsinger. Adding wall of sound, wounding whispers, and majestic word seems like they had potential too. I think we ended up looking at 6 or 7 largely competed trees and half of ninja spy. We also had confirmation some of those enhancements would remain while others were already scrapped.

This would definitely be a great start, but I'm long past believing we are going to actually see meaningful bard spells added to our book.

Aashrym

01-06-2013, 11:06 PM

That's interesting, because any sort of melee improvement would be enticing for warchanters to also grab. They'll need that sort of draw to prevent warchanter from just being splash-bait.

Warchanters are moving towards heavier melee too, and that's where weapons of war, IC enhancements, bonus hit points, and some other odds and ends were located. If it follows what was posted war chanters would be the jump in and face smash style while virts would be more subtle in the bonuses.

This would definitely be a great start, but I'm long past believing we are going to actually see meaningful bard spells added to our book.

Some of them were pretty meaningful. I'd rather more were added to the actual bard spell list, but opening up options through the the spellsinger tree is a start. The mock up has spells added with the spell singer PrE progression and slots to take spells at various tiers. Some were unique bard spells, like wall of sound and wounding whispers. Others were offensive arcane spells like prismatic ray and cyclonic blast.

The ability to add in spells that way also opens up cleric domains as a possibility.

The spells I saw at the time were

Gust of Wind
Wounding Whispers (listed as a single target sonic DoT that includes 5% physical vulnerability, on the first tier of the tree, so low level. reads d3+2/2lvls)
Majestic Word (technically this is a song, 15 second cool-down heals d8 per casters level, single target, listed as affected by meta's)
Lightning Motes
Phantasmal Killer
Ray of Exhaustion
Ooze Puppet
Dispel Magic
Prismatic Ray
Burning Blood
Harmonic Shield
Wall of Sound
Cyclonic Blast

There is no doubt in my mind that the list has changed and it's likely some of those were place holders. The fact that there are more bard only spells that were in development was encouraging and demonstrates feedback is being taken into consideration.

The bard trees that were up were outdated, unfortunately, so that gets back to grains of salt.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

01-07-2013, 03:44 AM

Xilth

01-07-2013, 04:21 AM

Some of them were pretty meaningful. I'd rather more were added to the actual bard spell list, but opening up options through the the spellsinger tree is a start. The mock up has spells added with the spell singer PrE progression and slots to take spells at various tiers. Some were unique bard spells, like wall of sound and wounding whispers. Others were offensive arcane spells like prismatic ray and cyclonic blast.

The ability to add in spells that way also opens up cleric domains as a possibility.

The spells I saw at the time were

Gust of Wind
Wounding Whispers (listed as a single target sonic DoT that includes 5% physical vulnerability, on the first tier of the tree, so low level. reads d3+2/2lvls)
Majestic Word (technically this is a song, 15 second cool-down heals d8 per casters level, single target, listed as affected by meta's)
Lightning Motes
Phantasmal Killer
Ray of Exhaustion
Ooze Puppet
Dispel Magic
Prismatic Ray
Burning Blood
Harmonic Shield
Wall of Sound
Cyclonic Blast

There is no doubt in my mind that the list has changed and it's likely some of those were place holders. The fact that there are more bard only spells that were in development was encouraging and demonstrates feedback is being taken into consideration.

The bard trees that were up were outdated, unfortunately, so that gets back to grains of salt.

I was lately real doomsayer for DDO... but this bards stuff you write looks nice and could be (for me) new selling point. But also i have some concerns about it, hope that they are only my bad feelings and all is going right :) but still some thoughts abut it from me...

Note: I missed that lama show and didn't see it... all my thoughts based on uper posts (if anyone knows something interesting it would be fun to know, even if it outdated).

1) The new spells are looking fun, sonic dot, pk etc... it will be nice for sure but i didn't see (was there maybe on lama?) any spell/ability similar to mass hold (fast cast, aoe range cc). Mass hold is spell which i miss the most in bard spellbook. Also it would be very nice if we get power words and symbol of persuasion...

2) Sp enhancement, or anything that can raise sp pool. Nucking is very sp costly and bard don't have too much sp, it could be pain if we get nucking ability but not enough sp to use them efficiently, bard don't get even Echoes of Power... oh and anything changed to spellsong vigor? and maybe most ss spells was SLA-s?

3) I hope that new ss tree is made with 2 "paths" one with dps spells/enhancement second with cc, so it could be posible to skip dps options and for saved points get some virt stuff like cha to hit (i hope that one is there... ), etc. or skipp cc and go for evocation dps... or 3rd way skip cc and dps, get all sp stuff and positive enhancement and play as healer. I realy hope that tree will be ordered in the way that would allow to do that, and not mixed in way that would force us to get dps enhancements/spells to open higher tiers of cc spells etc. Splitting enhancement to dps/cc/healing paths would give a lot of flexibility for bard builds.

Sezneg

01-07-2013, 12:17 PM

Yeah, some of those bard only spells I've been calling for, for YEARS. Many others arent on that list. This is a very nice recollection of what could have been, and I truly thank you Aashrym for bringing them to light again. You have been a great contributor and supporter of the bard class over the years. If you ask me, it's a **** shame more hadnt been done to this iconic class of ultimate pliability when far more were interested, but maybe there is still a chance to continue to add variety to this spellbook for those still around.

I was lately real doomsayer for DDO... but this bards stuff you write looks nice and could be (for me) new selling point. But also i have some concerns about it, hope that they are only my bad feelings and all is going right :) but still some thoughts abut it from me...

Note: I missed that lama show and didn't see it... all my thoughts based on uper posts (if anyone knows something interesting it would be fun to know, even if it outdated).

1) The new spells are looking fun, sonic dot, pk etc... it will be nice for sure but i didn't see (was there maybe on lama?) any spell/ability similar to mass hold (fast cast, aoe range cc). Mass hold is spell which i miss the most in bard spellbook. Also it would be very nice if we get power words and symbol of persuasion...

2) Sp enhancement, or anything that can raise sp pool. Nucking is very sp costly and bard don't have too much sp, it could be pain if we get nucking ability but not enough sp to use them efficiently, bard don't get even Echoes of Power... oh and anything changed to spellsong vigor? and maybe most ss spells was SLA-s?

3) I hope that new ss tree is made with 2 "paths" one with dps spells/enhancement second with cc, so it could be posible to skip dps options and for saved points get some virt stuff like cha to hit (i hope that one is there... ), etc. or skipp cc and go for evocation dps... or 3rd way skip cc and dps, get all sp stuff and positive enhancement and play as healer. I realy hope that tree will be ordered in the way that would allow to do that, and not mixed in way that would force us to get dps enhancements/spells to open higher tiers of cc spells etc. Splitting enhancement to dps/cc/healing paths would give a lot of flexibility for bard builds.

First of all, I just don't get the doom-saying in either of these posts. F2P is an extremely competitive market, and DDO is no longer the "only" AAA quality F2P option (SWTOR and LOTRO are likely the largest hits to the DDO playerbase). The upside is that F2P games are easy to migrate to and from, and content releases can bring old players back quite quickly. A large free game-altering update like the enhancement update has a LOT of potential to goose player interest and get people playing.

Secondly, I am rather happy about the bard stuff that has been "leaked" thus far.

If SP is a concern for spellsingers testing this, I'm sure that will show up in the feedback. Keep in mind that you have to include the SP replenishing song in your mental math, and with actual damage/offensive spells to spend those SP on, a singer is going to have that replenishing song up from the moment he goes under max SP.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

01-07-2013, 04:08 PM

First of all, I just don't get the doom-saying in either of these posts.

"Doom-saying" is making a non desirable prediction of the future. I speak from experience, from my past experiences. I have made and continue to make literally hundreds of bard builds over the years for this game, so what I speak comes from one who not only loves the class, but has walked the walk.

Now, epic destinies have bred life back into many bard builds, and what Aashrym pointed out was a positive step, but its not done. And until I see it on my screen in a playable form, I believe nothing. That's not Doom speak, that's Soon speak. And anyone who's been around these neck of the woods for very long, knows what Soon, means.

Aashrym

01-07-2013, 04:10 PM

I was lately real doomsayer for DDO... but this bards stuff you write looks nice and could be (for me) new selling point. But also i have some concerns about it, hope that they are only my bad feelings and all is going right :) but still some thoughts abut it from me...

Note: I missed that lama show and didn't see it... all my thoughts based on uper posts (if anyone knows something interesting it would be fun to know, even if it outdated).

1) The new spells are looking fun, sonic dot, pk etc... it will be nice for sure but i didn't see (was there maybe on lama?) any spell/ability similar to mass hold (fast cast, aoe range cc). Mass hold is spell which i miss the most in bard spellbook. Also it would be very nice if we get power words and symbol of persuasion...

2) Sp enhancement, or anything that can raise sp pool. Nucking is very sp costly and bard don't have too much sp, it could be pain if we get nucking ability but not enough sp to use them efficiently, bard don't get even Echoes of Power... oh and anything changed to spellsong vigor? and maybe most ss spells was SLA-s?

3) I hope that new ss tree is made with 2 "paths" one with dps spells/enhancement second with cc, so it could be posible to skip dps options and for saved points get some virt stuff like cha to hit (i hope that one is there... ), etc. or skipp cc and go for evocation dps... or 3rd way skip cc and dps, get all sp stuff and positive enhancement and play as healer. I realy hope that tree will be ordered in the way that would allow to do that, and not mixed in way that would force us to get dps enhancements/spells to open higher tiers of cc spells etc. Splitting enhancement to dps/cc/healing paths would give a lot of flexibility for bard builds.

TBH, I think some CC options and spells outside of enchantment are more appealing than mass hold. Mass hold sounds nice but it doesn't alleviate the drawback bard casters have with immunities. I find spells outside that school opening up bards more than another enchantment.

There was stuff to raise the SP pool listed.

Each tree had multiple columns and tiers.

The issue with the discussion on the trees that we glimpsed was that the information was dated even if some of the mechanics on them were relevant. The devs were in a position where they weren't ready to discuss the current status of the trees but couldn't discuss the trees as is much because players become hung up on what is in the tree instead of the mechanics behind it.

The details were actually less relevant than the mechanics they introduced so I wouldn't worry too much about what was actually in those trees at this point, if that makes sense.

Xilth

01-08-2013, 06:58 AM

TBH, I think some CC options and spells outside of enchantment are more appealing than mass hold. Mass hold sounds nice but it doesn't alleviate the drawback bard casters have with immunities. I find spells outside that school opening up bards more than another enchantment.

Yes, i agree that we need ways to deal with mind affecting immunity but in my opinion mass hold like spell is needed too, and for sure enchantment shouldn't be forgoten in enhancement changes.

Right now not having mass hold (or similar) spell makes bard not so usefull when we talk about enchantment cc, just take any wiz/sorc and bard into any quest that allows enchantment cc... all mobs will be held before bard even finish casting disco ball (only one usefull mass cc outside charms), bard can't be competitive to wiz/sorc in that school even if he build around it. Having enchantments spells and building character for it and then knowing that it will be lacking, and any wiz/sorc will be better is one of the weakness of bard desing in DDO... in other words why bard has enchantment spells if he can't be competitive to other classes, even when build for it?

Also, if bard cc spells will be spread in 2~3 schools it could be hard to take all feats and have good dc in all 3 schools for them... we need new cc spells outside enchantment for mind immune mobs but in my opinion enchantment should still be main cc school for bard.

Sezneg

01-08-2013, 11:54 AM

Xilth

01-08-2013, 12:06 PM

The main problem with bard CC is that max spell level of 6, no amount of feats will fix this. It should be handled by allowing spellsingers to invest in increasing their effective spell level at the top end of the spellsinger tree.

Max spell lv is 6, but even now it isn't that big problem. Bard capstone gives +2 cha and +2 enchantment dc, so it is +3 dc for enchantment, this capston eliminates problem with max spell lv. Bard when build for dc (enchantment) is at the same dc as all other casters (except wizards, they can get the highest dc off all classes).

Im sure that devs remember about capstone/max spell lv and in enhancment pass we will get the same, some top tier enhancment that will raise bard dc to the lv of other casters.

Artos_Fabril

01-08-2013, 12:34 PM

Max spell lv is 6, but even now it isn't that big problem. Bard capstone gives +2 cha and +2 enchantment dc, so it is +3 dc for enchantment, this capston eliminates problem with max spell lv. Bard when build for dc (enchantment) is at the same dc as all other casters (except wizards, they can get the highest dc off all classes).

Im sure that devs remember about capstone/max spell lv and in enhancment pass we will get the same, some top tier enhancment that will raise bard dc to the lv of other casters.
Although a tier 6/7 enhancement that grants +3 spell levels would also be nice. Or autogrants for +1 at tier2(level 6), tier 4(level 12), and tier 6 (level 18) would put them on-par with Sorcs for effective spell levels.

Jaid314

01-08-2013, 02:26 PM

i only want to go up to level 9 spells in actuality if they give bards something to reduce the cost of heighten. it's fine for a wizard, and especially not a problem for a sorcerer, but my bard doesn't exactly have the SP pool to spam low level spells heightened up to 9 all day long.

i'd much rather stick with the +2 enchant DC and +2 cha (though i'd also like to see +2 evocation(sonic) DC added to the capstone, for reasons i'm about to explain).

that said, bard does in fact have CC that isn't mind affecting. it isn't as powerful, but it does exist. greater shout, soundburst, and sonic blast all work on mindless enemies (though it still won't work against enemies that are both mindless and not alive, i suppose there are enhancements to make fascinate work on undead and constructs anyways).

obviously, something that lasts a bit longer would be nice, but they do exist (though it would be awfully nice if soundburst bypassed spell resistance like pretty much all the other damaging spells in the game do).

Aashrym

01-08-2013, 06:39 PM

Yes, i agree that we need ways to deal with mind affecting immunity but in my opinion mass hold like spell is needed too, and for sure enchantment shouldn't be forgoten in enhancement changes.

Right now not having mass hold (or similar) spell makes bard not so usefull when we talk about enchantment cc, just take any wiz/sorc and bard into any quest that allows enchantment cc... all mobs will be held before bard even finish casting disco ball (only one usefull mass cc outside charms), bard can't be competitive to wiz/sorc in that school even if he build around it. Having enchantments spells and building character for it and then knowing that it will be lacking, and any wiz/sorc will be better is one of the weakness of bard desing in DDO... in other words why bard has enchantment spells if he can't be competitive to other classes, even when build for it?

Also, if bard cc spells will be spread in 2~3 schools it could be hard to take all feats and have good dc in all 3 schools for them... we need new cc spells outside enchantment for mind immune mobs but in my opinion enchantment should still be main cc school for bard.

It would be nice to not forget enchantement but if you are concerned about the casting speed of a disco ball use deep slumber instead, quicken disco ball, stun them with greater shout, or wait to see what the enhancement pass also brings. One of the changes to the spellsinger capstone listed was faster casting speed.

I don't think it's any different in feats for bards compared to sorcs, favored souls, clerics, or druids. Not having spare feats is normal and I'm not sure it will be necessary. Just some wishful thinking maybe. ;)

The main problem with bard CC is that max spell level of 6, no amount of feats will fix this. It should be handled by allowing spellsingers to invest in increasing their effective spell level at the top end of the spellsinger tree.

Capstone has always fixed that since it's inception for caster bards. Additionally, it's possible to add stacking DC boni in the tree for the same net effect. A person doesn't need the same spell levels if the same DC is reasonably easy to accomplish.

Max spell lv is 6, but even now it isn't that big problem. Bard capstone gives +2 cha and +2 enchantment dc, so it is +3 dc for enchantment, this capston eliminates problem with max spell lv. Bard when build for dc (enchantment) is at the same dc as all other casters (except wizards, they can get the highest dc off all classes).

Im sure that devs remember about capstone/max spell lv and in enhancment pass we will get the same, some top tier enhancment that will raise bard dc to the lv of other casters.

The listed spellsinger capstone was reduced to +1 DC for all schools from +2 to enchantments, with some abilities to focus in the enhancements.

Although a tier 6/7 enhancement that grants +3 spell levels would also be nice. Or autogrants for +1 at tier2(level 6), tier 4(level 12), and tier 6 (level 18) would put them on-par with Sorcs for effective spell levels.

It's not the spell levels so much as the DC's. I wouldn't mind a spellsinger option that opened up 7th level spell slots with a host of spells but that might not be possible anyway. Adding spells in is obviously possible now, as well as DC adjustments to spells.

i only want to go up to level 9 spells in actuality if they give bards something to reduce the cost of heighten. it's fine for a wizard, and especially not a problem for a sorcerer, but my bard doesn't exactly have the SP pool to spam low level spells heightened up to 9 all day long.

i'd much rather stick with the +2 enchant DC and +2 cha (though i'd also like to see +2 evocation(sonic) DC added to the capstone, for reasons i'm about to explain).

that said, bard does in fact have CC that isn't mind affecting. it isn't as powerful, but it does exist. greater shout, soundburst, and sonic blast all work on mindless enemies (though it still won't work against enemies that are both mindless and not alive, i suppose there are enhancements to make fascinate work on undead and constructs anyways).

obviously, something that lasts a bit longer would be nice, but they do exist (though it would be awfully nice if soundburst bypassed spell resistance like pretty much all the other damaging spells in the game do).

Heighten is actually pretty cheap for a wizard with the enhancements and capstone. The capstone for spellsingers that slipped in was:

Prodigal Lyrist - DNT TBD Your music ripples with latent energy. Granted Abilities: +2 Charisma, +1 to your Spell DCs, +1 to your Spell Penetration checks, and 100 Spell Points. In addition, you are able to cast your spells 20% faster. Bard Spell List: Gain Wall of Sound as a 6th Level spell.

Xilth

01-09-2013, 04:28 AM

I don't think it's any different in feats for bards compared to sorcs, favored souls, clerics, or druids. Not having spare feats is normal and I'm not sure it will be necessary. Just some wishful thinking maybe. ;)

I hope you are right... in few months we will know it ;)

btw... using druid argument isn't the best here :D most annoying part of druid class (for me) is exactly spell list with many different spell schools (problems with feats, dc for some spells etc.). Druid class is fun but (for me) it feels unbalanced.

SealedInSong

01-09-2013, 04:44 AM

"Doom-saying" is making a non desirable prediction of the future. I speak from experience, from my past experiences. I have made and continue to make literally hundreds of bard builds over the years for this game, so what I speak comes from one who not only loves the class, but has walked the walk.

Now, epic destinies have bred life back into many bard builds, and what Aashrym pointed out was a positive step, but its not done. And until I see it on my screen in a playable form, I believe nothing. That's not Doom speak, that's Soon speak. And anyone who's been around these neck of the woods for very long, knows what Soon, means.

Couldn't agree more with these statements.

I'd also like to add that I hope the bard gets more totally unique and non-combat-oriented abilities like Fatesinger's Masquerade.

I'd love for bards to be more effective in dungeons but I don't think it should only apply to having an augmented spellbook (which they should). I'd like to see more dialogue options, more uses for songs, etc.

A tall order that likely will not be met, but I have to push for some flavor/roleplaying stuff when I can in DDO.

Sezneg

01-09-2013, 11:15 AM

I hope you are right... in few months we will know it ;)

btw... using druid argument isn't the best here :D most annoying part of druid class (for me) is exactly spell list with many different spell schools (problems with feats, dc for some spells etc.). Druid class is fun but (for me) it feels unbalanced.

I find for druid at least, you just want to pump evocation for EQ ;p

EllisDee37

01-09-2013, 04:30 PM

I hope you are right... in few months we will know it ;)I'll take the over.

Aritukus

01-15-2013, 01:12 AM

Overall, call me pessimist, but if we even hear about anything "real" happening about the enhancements change before this years christmas, I will eat my keyboard with a slice of bread and some ketchup. And... I called myself not so "optimistic" about this change. Haha.

And I was so much looking forward to come back to game and eat my delicious keyboard. What a fail.

But I guess its nothing hard to figure it out. Now I say that I will eat my keyboard with ketchup and bread (rice one now on...) when enhancement revamp comes for free. Feel it in my bones that next expansion will "bring the goodies out". However, happy new year DDO.

Failedlegend

01-15-2013, 08:55 AM

And I was so much looking forward to come back to game and eat my delicious keyboard. What a fail.

But I guess its nothing hard to figure it out. Now I say that I will eat my keyboard with ketchup and bread (rice one now on...) when enhancement revamp comes for free. Feel it in my bones that next expansion will "bring the goodies out". However, happy new year DDO.

I doubt the enhancement revamp will cost money since their deleting the old system.

karl_k0ch

01-17-2013, 10:37 AM

Fyi, posted yesterday:

the upcoming enhancement pass is not part of update 17.

ArcaneArcher52689

01-17-2013, 11:05 AM

if i'm not mistaken, that post by varoguille was made when update 17 was still planned for 2012, so until we get another official denunciation, i will continue to hold hope

Failedlegend

01-17-2013, 11:08 AM

if i'm not mistaken, that post by varoguille was made when update 17 was still planned for 2012, so until we get another official denunciation, i will continue to hold hope

uh...its from yesterday

nivarch

01-17-2013, 11:08 AM

if i'm not mistaken, that post by varoguille was made when update 17 was still planned for 2012, so until we get another official denunciation, i will continue to hold hope

Or you could just click the small arrow on top of the quote box and see the post is 1 day old :)

Candela90

01-20-2013, 06:55 AM

Eh... I would love to see racials first :P.
I mean - Im waiting to TR into rogue but right now I dont know which race will be good. And dont want to be forced to TR again as soon as new enhancements come :P.
Fo what I know they can make human great choice due to its versality, healing amp and feat.
Or add a lot to halfling SA dmg and to-hit.
Or add some bonus for drows (drows gonna hae tempest tree... at least thats what i heard - and it could be great for rogues).
So 3 races.

Please devs - sneak peak for racials in new enh system cause Im stuck not knowing what to do with my charcter :P.
I know were going to get lesser reinc as it goes live but... LR wont make race change possible :P.
And right now Im gonnabe stuck doing nothing and not playing as soon as I hit 20 :(.

Blayster

02-21-2013, 07:56 AM

MalarKan

02-21-2013, 01:32 PM

Oh, everything is cute and awesome, we all support the devs and we all want the best, balanced shiny and beautiful enhancements tree...
Sorry, ain't gonna happen. Stones are going to fly. If you don't bring in overpower everybody will complain, if you bring it in I will complain (and some few others also).

Truth is that Epic GH is a nice bone to keep us chewing while you work on that, and I appreciate that - I'm going to have a nice time farming flawless scales and guildies are already worrying about EE Crucible (that sounds promising...) but erm... I'm sorry, I didn't forget the enhancements and I won't. Some consideration here, please? Is that your priority now, yes? What was decided already, what was not? What are the main concerns (apart from balance, we're not getting that until it hit Lamania)?

This...

but u know, we did EE crucible last night... u'll need over 60s in search for the traps (59 couldnt do it, 67 did it on my rogue) and as for the reflex on the traps, well, a 15 + 40something was a fail... once i buffed up a 3 + 65 reflex was (more than) enough.

All in all, EE crucible is just like doing it elite at heroic at level. I must confess im disapointed, since i was expecting a challenge other than just beefier mobs that hit harder.

Back onto the subyect this thread is about: Enhancements pass already og!... or something :>

Candela90

02-25-2013, 09:23 AM

I really hope enhancements are priority now . Because I really need some sneak peak on them to know what gear to collect :P.

Taojeff

02-25-2013, 09:53 AM

I really hope enhancements are priority now . Because I really need some sneak peak on them to know what gear to collect :P.

I second this; for myself and several other people I run with, the hope of an enhancement pass is the only thing that keeps us in the game.

Failedlegend

02-25-2013, 11:26 AM

I second this; for myself and several other people I run with, the hope of an enhancement pass is the only thing that keeps us in the game.

I've got a bunch of characters on hold waiting on it...honestly the only characters I'm still playing are characters I have a feeling will be broken by the changes for example my Arcane Tank has so little wiggle room that I have a feeling it won't work anymore unless they take my multi-class PrE aka "Hybrid PrEs" and give us Eldritch Knight or Bladesinger

IronClan

02-25-2013, 05:27 PM

If any Dev is still listening: can we get a MASSIVE sneak peak of this, say about when it's being Q/A'd for the private preview server? Something that would give the player base time to pluck at the low hanging fruit of OP changes, and the more obvious unintended Nerfs, "you destroyed mah build" consequences and "ZOMG I can't wait to exploit that" things you guys might miss?

You guys are a small staff, you can't possible see everything the player base will see. Yes they will theory craft some minutia into "DooOOOooOOMMMMmmM!!!11UNO" which can be safely ignored, but what we really need to not happen, is have a BUNCH of well loved popular builds/Abilities and playstyles broken all at once, causing a Star Wars Galaxy's New Game Experience style exodus....

I know you guys are good at your Jobs, because (IMO) the game is more fun now than it ever has been, but you can't catch everything, and we will even if we will also make some mountains out of mole hills theory crafting as well...

The net effect will be a positive: the players will have some expectations set (instead of wildly believeing the worst or the best as is the case right now (mostly the worst), the Dev's will have forewarning of the angry nerfed mobs and angry "kill the new OP class bring them down a notch" torches and pitchforks mobs.

It's really hard to play the game right now, I'm not starting new builds I want to, I'm not TR'ing a build I want to, and I'm not buying a XP stone for a parked build because I don't know if it will be a waste of $50 because I need to TR it when the enhancement pass happens.

This thing is hanging over our heads.

Alavatar

03-05-2013, 11:22 AM

Still ignored.

*sigh*

karl_k0ch

03-05-2013, 12:18 PM

Still ignored.

*sigh*
Not quite.

Work on the new enhancement system is well underway and it will be heading to its first public beta this spring. In its current iteration, each class has at least two prestige class paths. The UI, similar to the Epic Destiny tree, will be a long awaited simplification to planning your character build, but more importantly, the goal is to make better choices more accessible for both new and advanced players in the heroic levels. We are planning an extended beta for this one. We’ll be doing multiple trips to Lamannia and lots of player events to give us all an opportunity to try it on various characters and gather lots of feedback.

Failedlegend

03-05-2013, 12:50 PM

So thats anywhere from Wednesday.March.20th to Thursday June.20th I would rather a slightly smaller window but at least we have an official Lammania release date now (ALL previous dates were speculation) and I hope it stays on there for a very long time...all my friends started downloading Lammania as soon as I showed them this.

Here's hoping its early spring :D

SealedInSong

03-05-2013, 03:39 PM

kingfisher

03-05-2013, 04:57 PM

tree limit or no tree limit, that is the question. the answer remains.......elusive.

shadereaper33

03-05-2013, 05:07 PM

tree limit or no tree limit, that is the question. the answer remains.......elusive.

I think there are a few more questions than just "Is there a tree limit?" Such as, how many PrE's/trees will each class actually have? Initially they said they would have 3 per class, but that recent state of the game letter makes me skeptical about that now. I am also curious as to how long they plan to have this on lamma land before pushing it to live. I could realistically see them pushing it out with this expansion regardless of whether or not it is actually finished, which would be a horrible thing.

Failedlegend

03-05-2013, 05:46 PM

It does say "In its current iteration" so it's possible first Lammania release will only have 2 for each class (possibly more) than we'll get more as they go

Aashrym

03-06-2013, 02:08 AM

tree limit or no tree limit, that is the question. the answer remains.......elusive.

The model that briefly slipped into Lamma was definitely 3 trees. It wasn't the slightest bit elusive. ;)

Failedlegend

03-06-2013, 07:19 AM

The model that briefly slipped into Lamma was definitely 3 trees. It wasn't the slightest bit elusive. ;)

Which was said to be a very old model which they could have easily scrapped based on the community feedback...so no we know nothing until it hits Lama...that both scares and excites me

EnjoyTheJourney

03-06-2013, 08:32 AM

Which was said to be a very old model which they could have easily scrapped based on the community feedback...so no we know nothing until it hits Lama...that both scares and excites meThe idea that seems to scare you gives me hope that there might be one part of this game that is relatively humble, simple, and reliable -- where "reliable" doesn't just mean relatively bug-free, but also means "reliable" in the effects on each character's potential in-game effectiveness.

On that note, if the devs boost enhancements up in their level of influence, then other parts of what determines the ceiling in a character's potential become relatively less influential; because of the work involved, it's a less-than-zero-sum game for players to have the devs regularly shifting around what raises the ceiling on each character's potential.

Aye to enhancements that work as advertised and don't require the reading of multiple wiki pages to make good decisions. Nay to an overly ambitious, bug-filled rat's nest of complications and future nerf-bait.

Failedlegend

03-06-2013, 10:11 AM

No I'm afraid that it will become OVER-simplified & UNDER-Flexible there's plenty of MMOs out there that are simple and clean but their very limited...I like my highly flexible system where I can make anything. If that is removed or highly limited that I don't want the new system...if it doesn't limit that at all...or even just a little bit I'm ok with it.

The other issue is that from what we've seen (again old system so who knows) Single-Class Builds are gaining alot from this change whilst Multi-classes are being penalized

Aashrym

03-06-2013, 02:55 PM

Which was said to be a very old model which they could have easily scrapped based on the community feedback...so no we know nothing until it hits Lama...that both scares and excites me

The only set up info forom Turbine has been a 3 tree limit. At no time has there been any indication this will not be what we get. While change is possible there is 0 indication of another direction taken. The information given was 3 trees and the layout we saw was 3 trees. Calling that elusive isn't realistic.,

Failedlegend

03-06-2013, 03:18 PM

dlsidhe

03-07-2013, 06:37 AM

The only set up info forom Turbine has been a 3 tree limit. At no time has there been any indication this will not be what we get. While change is possible there is 0 indication of another direction taken. The information given was 3 trees and the layout we saw was 3 trees. Calling that elusive isn't realistic.,

Actually, the layout is 4 trees - one racial and three class - at least as I was reading it (and the last layout example posted on the wiki shows). My main question is if the racial PrEs fall under the racial tree or a class tree, because that makes a huge difference in increasing the usefulness of some races.

PNellesen

03-07-2013, 07:01 AM

I hope that our suggestions actually have an impact on what's released.

I'd be sorely disappointed if half-measures and (bugged) compromises are released and then all of it is summarily ignored in favor of this "iconic heroes" development.

Prepare to be disappointed. The current crop of developers doesn't seem to have much interest in any suggestions that the people who pay for the game might have (maybe they never did, but this bunch seems more open about their disdain...)

Failedlegend

03-07-2013, 10:12 AM

Actually, the layout is 4 trees - one racial and three class - at least as I was reading it (and the last layout example posted on the wiki shows). My main question is if the racial PrEs fall under the racial tree or a class tree, because that makes a huge difference in increasing the usefulness of some races.

I can't find the dev post but the general idea is you have to spend an unannounced amount of AP into your racial tab to unlock their respective racial PrE which you can replace one of the 3 Prestige tabs with.

The major issue this presents is that certain races will become much more powerful in certain things that you'll start seeing stuff like "Oh sorry Barb your not a Dwarf so you won't have enough HPs for this raid" (last we heard Dwarf was getting Stalwart Defender)

Again I'd like to reiterate that giving them actual RACIAL prestige classes is the better idea because not only is it much more satisfying lore-wise it will also avoid the above since they'd offer more options as opposed to more power.

A few examples

Dwarf - Runesmith: Not too hard to translate to DDO...Would likely be able to grant a few Arty-Like buffs but more focused on the defensive side (ie. applies to armor,shields,etc.) maybe a few SLAs. (either the PrE grants a small amount of SP or they use HP to cast
), Lastly prob get permanent detect secret doors and traps.

Elf - Eldritch Knight: This ones pretty simple. Grants a stance similar to Tenser's Transformation (no somatic component though) giving bonuses to Str,Con,HP & BAB, each tier also grants a small bonus to caster level to make it so their say 1 or 2 caster levels behind a Single-Class spellcaster, also ASF reduction and maybe a few SLAs...this one allows the Gish build too work. It still won't be a top tier build but it makes Gishes a viable build. Oh and to clarify only the CL is increased you DO NOT get more spell slots or higher level spells only for DC and SR purposes

Those both just grant extra options the former allowing w/e class the dwarf is to get a few buffs the latter allowing a gish build to function. All while oozing with the feel of the race

emptysands

03-07-2013, 02:45 PM

I can't find the dev post but the general idea is you have to spend an unannounced amount of AP into your racial tab to unlock their respective racial PrE which you can replace one of the 3 Prestige tabs with.

The major issue this presents is that certain races will become much more powerful in certain things that you'll start seeing stuff like "Oh sorry Barb your not a Dwarf so you won't have enough HPs for this raid" (last we heard Dwarf was getting Stalwart Defender)

Again I'd like to reiterate that giving them actual RACIAL prestige classes is the better idea because not only is it much more satisfying lore-wise it will also avoid the above since they'd offer more options as opposed to more power.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4250712&postcount=578

I'm sure there are some stuff they haven't told us yet. Even so there is some new stuff.

http://ddowiki.com/page/In_development/Enhancements

Aashrym

03-07-2013, 03:45 PM

Aashrym

03-07-2013, 03:52 PM

I never used the word "elusive" I just said we can't make any assumptions until we see it

Fish did, and that's who I was quoting when you quoted me.

I think that what was posted in the only layout provided a year ago followed by actually seeing the layout on Lamma leaves the layout pretty much what we were looking at. I can understand it's always possible the entire layout was scrapped but have a hard time believing it would be given the time difference between the original announcement and what we saw.

I believe the dev comments on changes were in regard to the content within the trees, and not the mechanics behind the trees.

Artos_Fabril

03-07-2013, 04:14 PM

I believe the dev comments on changes were in regard to the content within the trees, and not the mechanics behind the trees.

That would be a shame.

Oh well, there are other games coming out, if the new enhancement system becomes the NGE of DDO. (And I don't mean NWO)

Aashrym

03-07-2013, 04:25 PM

That would be a shame.

Oh well, there are other games coming out, if the new enhancement system becomes the NGE of DDO. (And I don't mean NWO)

I'm still looking forward to the enhancement changes. I'm more concerned about the possibility of direct and proxy nerfs within the trees instead of the actual tree system.

The tree system provides plenty to spend AP on, and level gating for enhancement purchases in the trees themselves was removed to provide higher tier enhancements on multiclasses that would not otherwise have been available. The structure is easy to read and understand compared to a list. There are many new enhancements and abilities being added with the trees.

Lot's of pluses that have been seen regardless of doom posts regarding an end product that hasn't been seen. ;)

Candela90

03-16-2013, 09:18 AM

DDOWiki says its supposed to be in this spring. Sneak peak pls. Now! :D

Failedlegend

03-16-2013, 11:20 AM

DDOWiki says its supposed to be in this spring. Sneak peak pls. Now! :D

It's supposed to be hitting LAMMANIA this spring...and spring hasn't started yet...it's March 20th to June 20th so anywhere from 4 days to a few months

Artos_Fabril

03-16-2013, 02:11 PM

It's supposed to be hitting LAMMANIA this spring...and spring hasn't started yet...it's March 20th to June 20th so anywhere from 4 days to a few months
That's the technical definition of spring in the northern hemisphere. They might have also meant "Q3" which is April 1-June 30, or what most people think of as "spring" which is march-may in most of the USA. Either way, I am very much looking forward to seeing this on Llama-land, if only so we can start providing feedback on the most recent iteration of the system, rather than the last information we were given to comment on.

IronClan

03-16-2013, 02:33 PM

Aashrym

03-17-2013, 07:37 PM

What I see so far is multiclass doom. and single attack clickie cooldown nightmares.

Want to do 12 Ninja Spy II and Rogue 6 Assasin I? Awesome... your assassinate is Rogue level DC based so you will never ever land an assassinate. To be fair, right now you simply can't take assassinate. So this system is "more flexible" because it TECHNICALLY LETS YOU, but of course you'll be 14 to 18 DC behind a semi-effective DC score so it's just a newb trap.

So your assassinate on a 6th level rogue won't work, huh? Really.......? You might want to rethink your argument there. How effective do you think assassinate is now with 12 monk levels and 6 rogue levels for assassin I? ;)

Please note the voice tone is meant to be friendly in my statement. :)

EDIT: Just to add a point, if a person does want to go monk 12 / rogue 6 / something 2 that player actually can have assassinate by playing a halfling based on information provided, which is not actually possible in the current system.

Love Paladin's single target one shot "smites"? Awesome now you can play a Acrobat that also is swimming in single shot burst damage clickies. Hope you love single click attacks all you "FLUID" acrobatic types...because your "athletic" style of combat necessitates:

1: single click tumble use (tumble is very disjointed and non-fuild because you move a set distance every time and can only move in four directions, you can not circle strafe and tumble, you can not move diagonally while tumbling, making it stilted and unresponsive)

2: single target attacks that often miss the mob that just moved

Nothing feels acrobatic like missing because the slow clumsy Hobgoblin moved, but hey you can hold down block and move exactly 6 feet in one of four directions and you might accidentally end up next to another mob to swing your single click attack at, hope it's not on cooldown... oh it is? too bad...

Seriously they couldn't get "acrobat" more wrong if they were trying to.

One shots attacks on a CD lead to disjointed, cool down management style meta gaming and completely ruin fluid responsive control of gameplay. I thought they were trying to move away from everyone having 5 single attack hotkeys, but it looks like they're trying to make every melee do more of that.

I can see tumbling into attacks being a pain. Since I haven't had the chance to try it on the new enhancement system I'll complain when I see it if necessary.

I take it that was not meant to be part of your opening statement? I don't see how the mechanic behind tumble-attacking is connected to multi-classing unless I missed it along the way.

I agree that it might have issues in game play.

moonprophet

03-22-2013, 11:38 AM

Marthesis

03-22-2013, 01:07 PM

...change the enhancement system. Change the UI if you want, but do not gimp multi-class builds just because you need to justify your time as a game developer. Make some new content. Put in a new class. Spend your time moving about the office with coffee and clipboard in hand trying to look busy. I don't care. Just do not take the misguided Hollywood approach of" Hey, a lot of people seem to really dig this. Let's completely change it!!!"

Let us celebrate by finding out that this idea was just a practical joke, a glimpse at an alternate reality, or a bad dream sequence, ok?

While I would prefer the new enhancement system, having it be a joke/canceled would still be preferable to the half-life where it is said to be coming out... with absolutely no date or likelyhood of it doing so anytime soon.

I played DDO for the character creation, and I'm not playing the game again until the new enhancement system is either out or canceled. I'm not going to put any effort into characters that will need to be completely re-done "shortly". (whatever that means at this point) In the meantime, I'll be back to check this forum every month or so...

Seikojin

03-25-2013, 02:11 PM

To get somewhat back on track... I was thinking about all the backend talk over the last year about melee underperformance and fixes to help.

I think there could be some tactical enhancements that would benifit Melee greatly.

Some that could check if you have certainf eats to enable the line. Then offer things like:
Bullrush - Move in a line attempting to knock an oponent down. STR checks galore. Can add wep damage to make enticing. Have the line upgrade number of targets around the bullrush.

Standing ground - Stance that resists knockdowns and damages the aggressor attempting the knockdown. Upgrades can add effects like stuns. Hit frees.

Riposte - Passive (?) that enables auto stunning while in melee. Similar to the swashbucklers ability. Upgrade increases chance and duration. Hit frees.

Melee grapple - STR or DEX check (one only) to pin and stun oppopent. Upgrades increase durations. Hit does not free, not vulnerable to 50% extra damage.

Disarm - Reduces the enemies base damage to 1 or 2 die, essentially emulating no held weapon. Depends on how mobs damage is built up. Could supply a debuff to damage in general. Mob can 'pick their weapon back up' but the coding would be immense and lag would crop up. So I think a debuff on timer would work. Upgrades increase duration.

Overwhelm - Stance, sac to hit for chance to interrupt melee from opponent (stun). Upgrades can increase chance to stun.

Some things I think would be cool to see:
A move where you advance while cleaving.
A knockback attack.
Coup de gras - while enemy is vulnerable, initiates a timer to autokill. Can be interrupted, so not really viable mid melee. Like opening a door, but in an enemy. :D

Rasolam

03-26-2013, 03:39 AM

/signed.

Thank you Turbine for the thought but from what i can see most of your players do not want the new enhancment sytem!
How about listening to the players for a change?

Candela90

03-26-2013, 06:04 AM

/signed.

Thank you Turbine for the thought but from what i can see most of your players do not want the new enhancment sytem!
How about listening to the players for a change?

I dont agree. New enhancements and ended enhancements so all classes have at least 2 complete lines is cool but:

1. Do it NOW/give us massive sneak peak NOW/start beta NOW or just cancel it cause me, my friends and half players I know are hanging at these 25 waiting for u to do this so we can collect gear and TR into our final builds... The longer we wait the less will we have to play DDO. I was logging every day. Now I do too... to roll on silver chest and log off.

2. Give it a lot of testing on Lamma... Dont make it like with EDs when right now only 3-4 epic moments are worth it and rest is ****. To add... implementing EDs when e.g. Shadowdancers half of ability is broken on live server is just not cool.

3. Rewarding for going fully into one class is good - sth lik capstone now. But we all know not all capstones are worth it. Id prefer to NOT break multiclasses but make caps a little more worthy. Cause right now hm... theyre good, but splashing for evade, or paladin saves or anything is way better.(e.g. sorc... +around 20 to all saves for paladin lvls vs 20 spell power... rlly? :P).

I believe in Turbine cause some ideas I see as little sneak peaks (assassin tree and monk tree) look pretty good. Sure, acrobat bottom row line is pretty awfull. Monk skills that give ya -1 ki on hit is also uneusefull but... Most of these seems like good ideas.

EnjoyTheJourney

03-26-2013, 07:55 AM

/signed.

Thank you Turbine for the thought but from what i can see most of your players do not want the new enhancment sytem!
How about listening to the players for a change?I don't agree either.

There are a very determined few making variations on the same post dozens to hundreds of times, stating that the results will be bad unless their relatively complicated design ideas are implemented. Probably well over 99% of all players haven't offered any opinion at all and there are clearly differing perspectives even among those posting in this thread.

I don't see how anybody can draw conclusions about what more than a small fraction of players want, based on this thread.

Rasolam

03-26-2013, 08:35 AM

No offence ment, i really should have rephrased my post so it was more my opinion and not based on other players.

Me im happy with the system as it is. I wouldnt say its broken so really it don't need fixing. Its nice that we are being offered something new (i didnt like rpic destinys, but have changed my mind now)

Anyway that was my opinion : )

Failedlegend

03-26-2013, 08:50 AM

I don't agree either.

There are a very determined few making variations on the same post dozens to hundreds of times, stating that the results will be bad unless their relatively complicated design ideas are implemented. Probably well over 99% of all players haven't offered any opinion at all and there are clearly differing perspectives even among those posting in this thread.

I don't see how anybody can draw conclusions about what more than a small fraction of players want, based on this thread.

It's not DooOooMMMmM!!!11?!! I've proven (in a much longer more detailed post...I'll keep it brief here) that it is likely that the 3 Tree limit will do just that LIMIT what multi-classes have access to right now...for example my main character is a Wiz12/Fighter6/Rogue2 to start I use Stalwart Defender & Palemaster...thats 2 trees...than I use haste boost which will likely be a kensai enhancement...so that's 3 trees so now I can't access ANY of the 3 rogue trees nor wild mage or Archmage not to mention w/e fighter enhancements get pigeon holed into Purple Dragon Knight. Pretty much every multi-class build will have this issue.

danzig138

03-26-2013, 09:26 AM

what i can see most of your players No, you really can't since most of the players don't visit the forum. Remember, the people here are a small fraction of the player base (or else, the game is in a lot of trouble). That said, you're also wrong. The enhancement system needs a complete overhaul. The layout needs to be reworked, individual enhancements need to be revised, entire lines need to be finished and revised. Yeah, it needs a lot of work.

Fecerak

03-26-2013, 10:20 AM

Personally I think they should do something like a 3/4/5 tree limit, depending on how many classes you have if they decide to go with that system. That means you can't get everything, which quite possibly would make pure builds poor, but it still means you will probably get the most important things you want. I'm not sure if they were having racial PrEs that you qualify for as a tree of it's own, but if if doesn't, 3/3/4 might make sense as well

IronClan

03-27-2013, 05:07 PM

sephiroth1084

03-28-2013, 03:05 AM

When the new system is put in they NEED to give every character a free one time +20 Lesser Reincarnate, and announce this at least a few months ahead of time, to ease peoples fear of change.

There was a game called Star Wars Galaxies, that had an update called "The New Game Experience" that instantly lost a very large chunk of it's player base and quickly attrited many more within months when it made dramatic changes to how characters functioned and what they could and could no longer do (also changed a lot of game mechanics but the main issue was breaking tens of thousands of characters). Basically it changed a WHOLE LOT of characters AT THE SAME TIME. They weren't all nerfed per se, but they all were changed significantly to no longer be able to do things they once could do. Players invested in the cool things they spent time and mental energy building up, had to look at starting over en mass, many simply left instead. People leaving caused others to leave even if they could deal with the changes.

This enhancement pass (from sneak peaks) currently reminds me a little of that, it looks like all but one of my characters will no longer be able to take the enhancements I currently have mapped out for them. So I am stuck not wanting to play, not wanting to level anything or become invested in something cool my character can do, because it's probably not going to be able to do that in a few months.

They really should grandfather in the old enhancement system at least for a time, even if it's only temporary at least people could ease into the new. I also hope for multiple beta testing passes where they actually listen to players. Listening to the community is not Turbine's strong point, and I am known around here as an apologist, so I think me making that statement gives it some credibility.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

No way they're going to do that. It's likely everyone will get one free LR, and maybe another round of free XP stones (doubtful on the latter). People have called for this before, and it's never happened. Turbine has made rather large changes several times in the past, and have been largely unconcerned with the impact it will have on their player base: people who have been playing for a few years have weathered similar circumstances and are still paying, so they don't have to worry about them. People who haven't been playing for too long, or who are just starting won't notice or won't care.

The only thing your being an oftentimes apologist means is that Turbine has suckered you plenty in the past, reeled you in, and can now do with you as they like.

Me? I've not really been an apologist for them, and I've been quite outspoken (even had some of my ideas make it into the game), but my game experience took a nosedive about a month and a half after MotU came out, and I stopped playing. I haven't loaded up DDO since September, and every time I pop on the forums to see what's new, kind of hoping that there will be a reason for me to come back, I instead find that more garbage is being shoveled our way, and that desire to one day get back into the game gets eroded a little bit more each time.

So I laugh at you, for being so deluded as to believe that Turbine would give up the profits a major overhaul of the game will net them in sold XP stones, L/GRs (+1, +2, +3, +5), TRs, XP pots, XP tomes, subscription fees, and all sorts of other ****. Not happening. I laugh at the notion that Turbine will suddenly start developing content in a more user-friendly, long-view, bug-free, balanced way.

We've had the ****** ED system for 3/4 of a year, with fairly regular threads popping up about how awful the grind is, and nothing has changed...except their making the grind worse. Other than for some of the loot (and only a small bit of it at that), few people like their (now previous) flagship raid, which is overlong (and I like long quests...at least when they feel worthy of being lengthy), not very fun, filled with awful mechanics, weirdly designed, immersion-breaking (not that DDO benefits from much immersion anymore), and continues the trend of making some characters feel rather useless, while placing a great deal of burden on others. A lot of the loot is still rather poor, even with super-grindy upgrades added, and nothing has been done about that. There's still equipment out there that is 4+ years old that persists as best-in-slot, or close to it, for many character archetypes.

But we have a new gambling feature in the game now! JOY! Clearly, Turbine is working with our best interests in mind. Why fix the Auction House and the DDO plat-based economy, when they can create an all new AH and economy tied to real money? And then staple some seriously cheesy gambling to it as well?!

Yup, they are all about staying classy, having integrity, and ensuring that the people paying for their product/services are actually enjoying themselves as much as they should be. That isn't to say that it's necessarily the devs' fault...I'm sure some of them are frustrated with the way things are going. I bet MajMal is. I can think of a few who probably aren't bothered a bit.

I wonder how Eladrin feels about the direction the game he's worked on for so long has taken. I'd always had a great deal of admiration and respect for him, but I wonder...

kingfisher

03-28-2013, 11:47 AM

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

No way they're going to do that. It's likely everyone will get one free LR, and maybe another round of free XP stones (doubtful on the latter). People have called for this before, and it's never happened. Turbine has made rather large changes several times in the past, and have been largely unconcerned with the impact it will have on their player base: people who have been playing for a few years have weathered similar circumstances and are still paying, so they don't have to worry about them. People who haven't been playing for too long, or who are just starting won't notice or won't care.

The only thing your being an oftentimes apologist means is that Turbine has suckered you plenty in the past, reeled you in, and can now do with you as they like.

Me? I've not really been an apologist for them, and I've been quite outspoken (even had some of my ideas make it into the game), but my game experience took a nosedive about a month and a half after MotU came out, and I stopped playing. I haven't loaded up DDO since September, and every time I pop on the forums to see what's new, kind of hoping that there will be a reason for me to come back, I instead find that more garbage is being shoveled our way, and that desire to one day get back into the game gets eroded a little bit more each time.

So I laugh at you, for being so deluded as to believe that Turbine would give up the profits a major overhaul of the game will net them in sold XP stones, L/GRs (+1, +2, +3, +5), TRs, XP pots, XP tomes, subscription fees, and all sorts of other ****. Not happening. I laugh at the notion that Turbine will suddenly start developing content in a more user-friendly, long-view, bug-free, balanced way.

We've had the ****** ED system for 3/4 of a year, with fairly regular threads popping up about how awful the grind is, and nothing has changed...except their making the grind worse. Other than for some of the loot (and only a small bit of it at that), few people like their (now previous) flagship raid, which is overlong (and I like long quests...at least when they feel worthy of being lengthy), not very fun, filled with awful mechanics, weirdly designed, immersion-breaking (not that DDO benefits from much immersion anymore), and continues the trend of making some characters feel rather useless, while placing a great deal of burden on others. A lot of the loot is still rather poor, even with super-grindy upgrades added, and nothing has been done about that. There's still equipment out there that is 4+ years old that persists as best-in-slot, or close to it, for many character archetypes.

But we have a new gambling feature in the game now! JOY! Clearly, Turbine is working with our best interests in mind. Why fix the Auction House and the DDO plat-based economy, when they can create an all new AH and economy tied to real money? And then staple some seriously cheesy gambling to it as well?!

Yup, they are all about staying classy, having integrity, and ensuring that the people paying for their product/services are actually enjoying themselves as much as they should be. That isn't to say that it's necessarily the devs' fault...I'm sure some of them are frustrated with the way things are going. I bet MajMal is. I can think of a few who probably aren't bothered a bit.

I wonder how Eladrin feels about the direction the game he's worked on for so long has taken. I'd always had a great deal of admiration and respect for him, but I wonder...

sadly, true. i have also wondered what the old devs think about the new ddo. they spent a ton of time and effort working with the playerbase back in the day. the updates were fewer and farther between but the game was better imo. i wonder what they think about this zynga guy and his cheesy mechanics and credit card machine utilities whose sole purpose is to dupe the young, gullible, and/or inexperienced into opening their wallets beyond the game fees instead of provide them a good product for a fair price? these live on center stage in the new ddo, and it gives the entire game a bad name. do they toilet paper his cubicle? saran wrap his car in the turbine parking lot? wedgies? forget his birthday on purpose? NO CUPCAKES FOR YOU! is he blacklisted from the friday lunch outings to the thai place with the hot waitress?

or are the ones who are left just as big of sell-outs as the new people? or are they just embarrassed about the recent turn of events so they rarely post on the forums or interact with the playerbase? do they just treat their job like shiftwork now? or are they happy about it because of the increased cash flow and the job stability it brings? do they view it as a necessary evil that allows them to still work with the game they were once proud of as opposed to doing the same **** over at hello kitty online? i mean it is still better than wow, but not by much anymore. however they feel, they are toeing the WB party line in order to keep their jobs, but i wonder how they really feel.

its clear, turbine apologists aside, that the majority of the veteran players dont really care for the direction the game has turned or for the changes that have been made. the enhancements will probably turn out ****** just like everything else. turbine will side with the money, as they always do now.

IronClan

03-28-2013, 08:10 PM

Turbine hasn't suckered me into anything what an insulting and eye rolling suggestion. Actually DDO might be the cheapest entertainment for the most value of anything I pay for. It certainly beats my $100 Satellite bill. The game is more fun to play now than it was a few years ago for me at least. People who don't understand subjectivity will always think something is "wrong" with anyone who likes what they don't like... I'm glad I don't feel the need to personally insult someone who feels differently than I do. and I have to leave it at that.

Love the ED system, btw very cool and lots of possibilities... also love what it has done for deep multiclassing.

IMO nothing they've done to character builds in terms of taking away or changing systems en mass compares to what they APPEAR to be doing with the enhancement pass. The previous pass doesn't appear to, and nthe TWF nerf was trivial in comparison (at least in terms of scope).

Asking for free respecs/grandfathering for characters is only going to gain traction if people speak up. Pointing out the relatively minor system changes and single character/combat style nerfs of the past as proof that they wont give out LR's is pointless and obviously not very comparable. It proves nothing. Scoffing at the idea of grandfathered enhancements is simply wrong, you should know better, you should know that they've already done that... But I guess not... I guess you're just pretending you know more about the games past than I do, so you can sound more patronizing.

Making pronouncements and personally directed derision at me wont change the fact that every case is new, and with enough regular players supporting the idea Turbine might actually feel like giving in this time. It certainly wont hurt if this is coming from everyone instead of just the usual suspects who are always crying wolf at every nerf (or demanding "LR's or else", to be more accurate). Perhaps this is were the hostility in your post comes from? You know that regular players speaking out might accomplish something that the outraged demanders could not.

And finally: games are not fun forever, most people get bored and move on eventually, some times moving on is for the best, when you hate the game and have no hope that it can be "saved" while other people like the game and enjoy playing it, to the point where you feel the need to insult people who still enjoy it... Well perhaps it's time.

Artos_Fabril

03-28-2013, 08:20 PM

Asking for free respecs/grandfathering for characters is only going to gain traction if people speak up. Pointing out the relatively minor system changes and single character/combat style nerfs of the past as proof that they wont give out LR's is pointless and obviously not very comparable. It proves nothing. Scoffing at the idea of grandfathered enhancements is simply wrong, you should know better, you should know that they've already done that... But I guess not... I guess you're just pretending you know more about the games past than I do, so you can sound more patronizing.
Unlike the changes to, for instance, Crit Rage, if the entire enhancement system is replaced with something that looks quite a bit like the ED system, I can't imagine how they would be able to keep people "grandfathered" if they wanted to, or that they would want to.

Given that, while I favor a full respec (maybe +19, so someone can't just respec into a whole new class? :P) I can't see Turbine cutting into their bottom line like that. What I hope for is a system that allows us the same flexibility the current one does (if not greater). What I expect, is complete denial that they have fallen short of that system despite a thousand pages of lama feedback to the contrary, and an unwillingness to acknowledge that many multi-class builds have been broken, thus obviating the need to offer any sort of remediation... possibly followed by a 10-20% off sale on true hearts.

Call me jaded and bitter, but realize it's the direction the game has taken and the actions of Turbine execs that have made me bitter and jaded.

Blayster

03-29-2013, 09:26 AM

Nay to an overly ambitious, bug-filled rat's nest of complications and future nerf-bait.
I don't know why more people don't think like us, EnjoyTheJourney. Every time I play with PuGs or see posts in the forums I get more disappointed with the community which seems to want OP rather than fun, and then complain about the nerfs. I hope there will be the trees limit, I truly do.

Easy come easy go, and gawd, how am I tired of reading people complaining about nerfs.

Want to do 12 Ninja Spy II and Rogue 6 Assasin I? (...) a newb trap.
That is awesome. Only a dedicated Assassin should be efficient in assassinating. I truly hope this holds for every role and build.

*on the tumble*
That is a play style. I love to tumble ALLLLL the time with my melees, even if it brings very little gain (+4 AC due to Mobility). I can tumble and hit with no problem. Sometimes I miss, but hey: am I supposed to always hit? I haven't seen the new mechanics in action, but I'm sure that not everybody matches every playstyle and that is perfectly normal.

Make some new content
I'm sorry but... if I understood correctly, the new enhancements systems is exactly this: new content, replacing an old amended incomplete system.

/signed.

Thank you Turbine for the thought but from what i can see most of your players do not want the new enhancment sytem!
How about listening to the players for a change?
-1

Listening to the community is not Turbine's strong point, and I am known around here as an apologist, so I think me making that statement gives it some credibility.
That is completely comprehensible though. Have you read the forums? 50% of the posts are like "why can't I one-hit everything in that RAID anymore?!?!" and "hey, that trap one-hitted me!!! that's unfair!!"

That is why.

Why fix the Auction House and the DDO plat-based economy, when they can create an all new AH and economy tied to real money? And then staple some seriously cheesy gambling to it as well?!
I hope you are aware that they are not charity center, and judging from the recent developments I am supposing that they are having money issues. People have been complaining more than providing. Most of the recent updates were targeting money. Let me tell you now a secret: updates targeting profit will probably go on until they obtain a stable revenue. Don't think that DDO devs are right now sitting on a golden throne in a hiate drinking champagne and laughting at this post.

IronClan

03-29-2013, 11:30 AM

"newb trap" That is awesome. Only a dedicated Assassin should be efficient in assassinating. I truly hope this holds for every role and build.

It's not a newb trap as it's not even possible to take assassinate like that currently. Unless we're talking about someone who can't even read a prerequisite :D However the new system as little as we've seen of it, would indeed allow it, and then it would indeed be a trap for new players.

It would only be a trap because they arbitrarily tied Assassinate DC to rogue levels. Personally I'm not okay with strictly defining "roles" via CLASS. I don't like cookie cutter classes and would like more viable choices not less viable choices. Currently there's lots of ways to do most things in the game well, insta killing a bunch of mobs to Stunning tripping and sundering, Ranging, Melee'ing can all be done by more than one (Actually more than three or four) classes. In fact they can all be done by heavily multiclassed characters.

Even making the 1/2 rogue levels + half character level would at least allow some multiclassing flexibility. But instead they're going to make it a "newb trap" instead of a viable choice. I suspect they are going to make a LOT of other "newb traps" which is part of my concern over the new system. Illusory appearance of flexibility where they remove a strict level requirement but actually kill the possibility that seemingly opens up by keeping a DC that severely punishes even a 2 level splash.

That is completely comprehensible though. Have you read the forums? 50% of the posts are like "why can't I one-hit everything in that RAID anymore?!?!" and "hey, that trap one-hitted me!!! that's unfair!!"

Yes but you're assuming no one there can tell a terrible idea from a reasonable objection or realistic concern. Considering how long they've ignored calls to remove DA so Zergers can go back to the good old days of slamming the entire server with massive mob trains of lag induction, I'd say they're in no danger of suddenly putting in every bad idea.

Anyway somewhere between completely ignoring your fan base (Ah la the Star Wars MMO that managed to fall apart even with Star Wars IP) and slavishly catering to the vocal "Elite" minority ah la Ultima Online and many other open PvP MMO's lays a middle ground where players should be able to voice legit concerns in an adult and reasonable manner and expect some level of give and take from the games developer on big changes.

This actually happened during both the TWF changes and the Intim change. So when some people around here pretend I'm dreaming you can safely roll eyes :rolleyes:

IronClan

03-29-2013, 12:03 PM

its clear, turbine apologists aside, that the majority of the veteran players dont really care for the direction the game has turned

It's clear that have no data to support that assumption, and you're mistaking the most vocally unhappy forum goers here as representative of the games actual population. If you have something more concrete than "the usual 10 or 15 people here don't like the direction of the game, but then what do they ever like?" along with your anecdotal guild buddies which I'm sure will be cited in reply to this, at least that's the usual response.. I'd love to read it. The tone on every game forum I've ever read is ALWAYS dominated by the unrealistic and unreasonable expectations of players who feel disenfranchised because the game isn't exactly what they want, and they refuse to "listen" to them, invariably these players also have the strongest and most specific ideas for how the game "SHOULD HAVE BEEN" or "could have been" or "was back when it was still good". I've even been one of those people, until I realized how pointless it was.

The interesting thing is you might find a bunch of people here who agree with you that "the game isn't moving in a direction Veterans players like" but I can guarantee you that no 10 will have the same idea on what the best direction would be.

It's easy to form the ilusion that "everyone hates DDO now" when you spend time reading a forum that is mostly populated by people who are motivated to voice their unhappiness... It's the games "complaint department" if you spend enough time in the complaint department you might get the idea that no one likes the product.

But hey I'm an apologist AKA: I enjoy playing the game and have realistic expectations based on years of playing PC games and MMO's as a hobby.

SealedInSong

03-29-2013, 12:18 PM

Bullrush - Move in a line attempting to knock an oponent down. STR checks galore. Can add wep damage to make enticing. Have the line upgrade number of targets around the bullrush.

Standing ground - Stance that resists knockdowns and damages the aggressor attempting the knockdown. Upgrades can add effects like stuns. Hit frees.

Riposte - Passive (?) that enables auto stunning while in melee. Similar to the swashbucklers ability. Upgrade increases chance and duration. Hit frees.

Melee grapple - STR or DEX check (one only) to pin and stun oppopent. Upgrades increase durations. Hit does not free, not vulnerable to 50% extra damage.

Disarm - Reduces the enemies base damage to 1 or 2 die, essentially emulating no held weapon. Depends on how mobs damage is built up. Could supply a debuff to damage in general. Mob can 'pick their weapon back up' but the coding would be immense and lag would crop up. So I think a debuff on timer would work. Upgrades increase duration.

Overwhelm - Stance, sac to hit for chance to interrupt melee from opponent (stun). Upgrades can increase chance to stun.

Some things I think would be cool to see:
A move where you advance while cleaving.
A knockback attack.
Coup de gras - while enemy is vulnerable, initiates a timer to autokill. Can be interrupted, so not really viable mid melee. Like opening a door, but in an enemy. :D

Bolded some of my favorite portions.

The devs did say that they wanted to add more tactical feats, and while I do appreciate changes to feats like precision and stuff, I do hope they add more active tacticals like you described. Very cool.

It woudl breathe so much more life into characters like barbarians and melees in general who often have not much to do, too much to do (paladin), or very rarely a good balance of things to do (monks).

It's also the single most effective area they can focus on to close the gap between casters and melees without having to resort to this absurd destiny/gear-tied power locus (dreadnought particularly).

Blayster

03-29-2013, 01:12 PM

It's not a newb trap as it's (...) even a 2 level splash.
I understood all of this. I still think it is the way to go. You think that there must be a benefit for multiclassing? Oh well, I think there should be a benefit from NOT multiclassing! Let multiclass be more flexible but lesser in power. Let the pure classes be more powerful.

Just to let you know, my main char is a lvl 25 14Ranger/2Paladin/4Rogue, so the changes will certainly affect me, yet I personally don't fear them. The increased number of *possibilities* of trees sounds as flexibility enough for me, but we won't know for sure until it actually hit Lammania.

your fan base (Ah la the Star Wars MMO that managed to fall apart even with Star Wars IP) and slavishly catering to the vocal "Elite" minority ah la Ultima Online and many other open PvP MMO
I have the feeling that you assume too much about others.

If you have played enough MMOs as you claim, you should know that it is impossible to follow player's suggestion, that every MMO is like that in this regard, and that in the best case devs read suggestions quickly without replying. And I'm glad, because the job of the developers is to develop, not to start a forum holy war by saying "I'm sorry, but we think it is best to keep the 3 trees limit... but it is going to be great, wait and see!!".

HungarianRhapsody

03-29-2013, 03:17 PM

I'd very much like to talk about Enhancements. But I'd like to talk about Enhancements with information that is newer than 6 months old.

IronClan

03-31-2013, 05:41 PM

I have the feeling that you assume too much about others.

If you have played enough MMOs as you claim, you should know that it is impossible to follow player's suggestion, that every MMO is like that in this regard, and that in the best case devs read suggestions quickly without replying. And I'm glad, because the job of the developers is to develop, not to start a forum holy war by saying "I'm sorry, but we think it is best to keep the 3 trees limit... but it is going to be great, wait and see!!".

It's interesting that you're saying I assume too much, when assuming is actually what you are doing, and your assumptions are contradicted by real examples. There are examples of Dev's modifying "in development" ideas right here in this forums past.

Did you know that the TWF nerf was originally going to be harsher? Since you're talking about being jaded and assuming Turbine wont listen, I'm going to assume you have been here longer than your Forum join date. So if you remember the TWF nerf, You might recall that the double strike mechanic was a direct result of Eladrin listening to players concerns of too much DPS loss in the TWF change thread that was like 800 pages long. Not only did double strike come from that, but the off hand chance as detailed in that thread was originally supposed to be even lower and the nerf even more severe for non-Ranger tempests. It was eased up directly because of player concerns, you can even follow the context and the players concerns and see the posts by Eladrin where he publicly compromises and adjusts the proposed changes to be less harsh.

Then there was the Intim change that made Intim+Shield blocking non viable by requiring active DPS to keep the mobs aggro, if you recall? In that thread The Shield feats got overhauled, with bashing and double strike as a direct result of conerns that S&B which was already very weak, was going to be completely extincted by the change. In that thread they publicly went through iterations asked us what we thought of the changes and adjusted things based on concerns. S&B is actually more viable partially due to the Shield feats double strike chance these days, though still far from optimal, it's a lot better than it was, if bashing wasn't broken that would help too.

Now some of that is also due to PRR and AC changes that came later, but the gist of those changes were also commonly suggested by the community (especially giving heavier armor and shields more damage mitigation, which is basically PRR).

So reasonably enough when someone (not directed at you) says I am wishful thinking, and being "suckered" I say they are just being jaded and contrary and apparently don't know as much about the games development past as they claim they do.

Scraap

03-31-2013, 06:45 PM

I understood all of this. I still think it is the way to go. You think that there must be a benefit for multiclassing? Oh well, I think there should be a benefit from NOT multiclassing! Let multiclass be more flexible but lesser in power. Let the pure classes be more powerful.

Define Power. Is it more of a given type of trick that x class could potentially bring to the table, or a higher likelihood that any given trick for x class would be pulled off successfully?

For myself, when I express my misgivings about stacking and tree limits impacting the stated goal of character flexibility, it's the latter that concerns me, since for practical matters, the goals and methods have a high likelihood of ending up at odds, and why I advocate for more to do with numbers, rather than simple inflation.

Blayster

04-01-2013, 10:48 AM

It's interesting that you're saying I assume too much, when assuming is actually what you are doing
Requoting myself: I have the feeling that you assume too much about others.
I indeed assume a lot about the game and developing behind it, but I'm not trying to make it any personal.

There are examples of Dev's modifying "in development" ideas right here in this forums past. (...)

Listening to the community is not Turbine's strong point
So, what is your point, please? Turbine listens to the community or not?

I want to bring attention to this: (...) directly because of player concerns.
Since I like to assume about the development, I'd bet it was Dev's concerns, not players.

We have layers here. Mournlands is closer to devs than open forums. We don't have idea what is going on there. What if the concerns have all proven meaningless in Mournlands? What if it was not tested in Mournlands yet, but devs are confident that after testing it will be okay? Do you really think that they will change the plans without giving it a try? Now, best question ever: what if the intention of the Devs IS TO NERF the multiclassing? Is that necessarily a bad thing?

Define Power
In my opinion, this:
- likelihood that any given trick for x class would be pulled off successfully?

Scraap

04-01-2013, 11:23 AM

In my opinion, this:
- likelihood that any given trick for x class would be pulled off successfully

Ok, for the hat-trick, here's the tough question: Why do you find that desirable?

IronClan

04-01-2013, 06:39 PM

So, what is your point, please? Turbine listens to the community or not?

"not being their strong point" is not the same as "they will never listen"... Did you really need me to explain that? No of course not. I think you already could tell the difference in degrees there but you had to blame your wrong assumptions in the previous post on something. So you picked out me appearing to say "two different things" even though "They do listen but it's not their strong point" is an entirely non contradictory statement. And is exactly how I would sum up my view.

It's also useful to note that "listening isn't their strong point" is usually and demonstrably because of the noise and entitlement/kicking/screaming/demanding that often goes on here. Every time a Dev posts, it is parsed to hell by jaded/unhappy/disenfranchised forum goers who are looking for any slip up or miswording to jump on, and insult/imply stupidity about that Dev. Just look at any loot thread that FoS is posting in. The Dev's don't post much here because they face a passive aggressive onslaught every time they post anything more than a humorous one liner or terse "I'm looking into it". Even that sometimes is parsed "What, kind of Dev needs to look into it, he should know it by heart, I would be fired if I didn't know my job".

If you've read enough change threads you will see the same pattern over and over, they listen to calm and reasonably expressed concerns and address the ones they feel are valid up-to the point where the "reasonable concerns" are dragged down into a ranting vortex of FUD and DoooOOooOOooOoMMmmM!!! posts, at which point they never post again to that thread, presumably because the signal to noise ratio is impossible for a busy developer to filter through.

IronClan

04-01-2013, 07:01 PM

Ok, for the hat-trick, here's the tough question: Why do you find that desirable?

Even better, why is it desirable only for a couple narrowly defined abilities? As most everything else in the game can be done by different classes given the right investment of opportunity cost.

Antheal

04-01-2013, 09:22 PM

I'm not going to read 250 pages.

Has there been any advancement on the Enhancement redesign?

Failedlegend

04-01-2013, 09:43 PM

I'm not going to read 250 pages.

Has there been any advancement on the Enhancement redesign?

Only news is sometime this spring its hitting lama so somewhere between now and June.20th (end of spring)

No news on whether the devs changed the concept from a year ago.

EnjoyTheJourney

04-01-2013, 10:46 PM

I read in a reliable source that they dropped the "three tree" structure and substituted in a "three forest" structure instead. Now you can arrange the following enhancement forests exactly as you like:

Forest 1: Choose from conifer, deciduous, or evergreen
Forest 2: Choose from pine, oak, or fir
Forest 3: Choose from mountain, valley, or lakeside

As further good news, each of these forest types has its own capstone enhancement; as examples, conifer forests get "coneburst, 3x per day", lakeside forests get "quench" on a 30 second cooldown, and oak forests get "stand tall and mighty" as a toggle.

I think we can all agree this will be a great leap forward for DDO.

Taojeff

04-02-2013, 11:26 AM

Arcane Archer

More clickie effects
Web Arrow, Gas Arrow, etc
Have several different lines to choose arrows from (enchantment, conjuration, necromancy, evocation)
Each tier of a line has multiple levels of ap, for example 1 in flame might give you fire arrow, 2 might give you flaming burst and 3 might give you fireball arrow that does a flaming blast like effect to all creatures around the target.
A line to increase base damage of elemental or force attacks

Blayster

04-02-2013, 12:56 PM

Ok, for the hat-trick, here's the tough question: Why do you find that desirable?
E.G.: Okay, wizards get 1 rogue level to disable traps. I just think that rogues should be considerably better (than they are at the moment) via passive bonus/feats or whatnot (and not only enhancements). Why? Because. It is an opinion.

Did you really need me to explain that?
Yes. You seemed to play with my post, forcing up literal interpretations on every sentence. It is nothing but fair to play with yours. Notice however that I've never based my argumentation on that.

"It is impossible to follow player's suggestion" refers to "all of them". I believe that you can suggest as much as you want, but that most of it will be quickly read, rarely considered. If at some point devs aren't sure about what to do, community might get extra attention, otherwise left aside, which is perfectly normal. Lammania and Mournlands are there for giving the first warning. That's how I think it works. I'm sorry but that's the last time I'm explaining this.

And please, PLEASE, could you be less verbose?

why is it desirable only for a couple narrowly defined abilities?
When did anyone mention "narrowly defined abilities"?

Arcane Archer
I like this suggestion, except for the fireball arrow. You either increase damage or AoE, both would be OP. Imagine that with Manyshots...
A line for Fear (already in!), Web, Slow, similars would be awesome indeed.

Scraap

04-02-2013, 01:38 PM

E.G.: Okay, wizards get 1 rogue level to disable traps. I just think that rogues should be considerably better (than they are at the moment) via passive bonus/feats or whatnot (and not only enhancements). Why? Because. It is an opinion.

Ok:
A) Stop looking at my character sheet :p
B) Please elaborate on why. "it's my opinion because it's my opinion" doesn't really help em find a middle ground, or target the real desires. "I want to easily identify what a toon can do by looking at the icon(s)", or "I don't want to micro-manage every choice" for instance.

Note that my expressed opinion is that functionally locked in classes or completely stacking trees and gear would be detrimental to character building flexibility for that portion of the game that is still based on probability, but it'd be fine to see higher investment costs for a secondary focus.

For example, to use the wiz/rogue analogy, I'd actually already suggested the notion of treating enhancement points like skill-points for instance, with class, and cross-class costs, so that you can pick a portion of enhancements to hit a benchmark, but are locked out of the full range of capabilities due to cost. (After all, they're secondary focuses, so yeah, you should probably sweat a bit more to pull em off, but that shouldn't make it a no-brainier to not even try either.)

Soth13

04-02-2013, 02:57 PM

Dear Devs

If we could get a point of concept of each tree it would help us in part to understand what to expect, and give us something to chew on.

eg: rogue,
assassin: stealthy dps
mechanic: perception abilities and traps (disabling and setting)
thief acrobat: movement and speed

If you give us this without the adjustable hard numbers we can both make suggestions on course of actions and make hypothetical character concepts for the upcoming change before it happens.

IronClan

04-02-2013, 05:46 PM

E.G.: Okay, wizards get 1 rogue level to disable traps. I just think that rogues should be considerably better (than they are at the moment) via passive bonus/feats or whatnot (and not only enhancements). Why? Because. It is an opinion.

But they can be significantly better if one opts to... And often are. For starters they have higher reflex saves, Improved Evasion, and it's easier for a Rogue to have higher HP's with bigger HD, and they only need to spend skill points 1 for 1 on those skills, while a Wiz spends double on all but one or two levels. Generally speaking the best Rogues are Rogues, in fact the very best Rogues are at least 12lvl Mechanics or Assassins, both of which can pump INT like a Wizard, and get benefits from it.

(Dang looking it over now I want to make a 14 Rogue Mech II 6 Arti Battle Engineer, but that is what I love about DDO... the possibilities)

When did anyone mention "narrowly defined abilities"?

Well your objection was originally to Assassinate being less than pure 20 class based, VERY FEW abilities in the game are purely class based or have a class based DC that makes them effectively useless for anyone who doesn't go pretty much pure. That seems narrowly defined no? Or do you have lots of abilities you'd like to see become (even) less viable the more you multiclass?

EnjoyTheJourney

04-02-2013, 06:16 PM

...

Well your objection was originally to Assassinate being less than pure 20 class based, VERY FEW abilities in the game are purely class based or have a class based DC that makes them effectively useless for anyone who doesn't go pretty much pure. That seems narrowly defined no? Or do you have lots of abilities you'd like to see become (even) less viable the more you multiclass?I would.

I see no reason why a character who does not specialize in being an assassin would have the same DC as another character who does specialize in being an assassin, ceterus paribus. More generally, those who specialize should gain more power in some ways, in exchange for having a narrower focus and a tool kit that's not as diverse. If you don't specialize, then you should give up some power, in exchange for having a broader set of tools. If these statements are not true, then that's conceptually weak and in practice probably a balance problem, and not something to celebrate.

In even more general terms, prestige classes were all about tradeoffs, from the beginning. Early Kensais, for example, weren't just a way of building a straight up better fighter; kensais were better than fighters in some ways and worse in others, which made sense. And that's exactly how I'd like DDO to be; if you want rewards from specializing, then specialize. If not, then don't.

Vargouille

04-02-2013, 06:57 PM

Enhancements. Devs.

We're still here. Reading.

EllisDee37

04-02-2013, 07:26 PM

I'm starting to get a excited to see a preview version on lama in the next couple months, but since all my real alts (not including the challenge farmer) are multiclass, I'm very nervous about you guys keeping the 3-tree limit. Fingers crossed you don't nerf all multiclass builds across the board in one fell swoop.

Scraap

04-02-2013, 07:46 PM

EnjoyTheJourney

04-02-2013, 08:04 PM

Kinda still feeling around in the dark since we lack info on what is and isn't locked down in terms of structure, but what if we took a look at the 5 pips you get per level, and changed that to say... odds grant class AP (3), and evens granted toon AP(2), with toon AP being able to be spent anywhere, but being the requirement for say, the racial trees?

If they included an assassinate DC line that cost 5 points total for 5 DC, that'd eat all of em on a pure, more than 2 levels worth on a halfling with racial assassinate, and cut into the discretionary 'funds' of an x/rog. Would that qualify in your books as specializing?In your example, a halfling pure assassin would still have a higher potential assassinate DC than a halfling multi-classed assassin + some other class(es).

It's hard to know if the higher DC for the halfling pure assassin would be important or not, without knowing other information. But, there is a potentially quite noticeable advantage to specializing in this example that goes right to the heart of what an assassin is supposed to be trained to do -- especially if the "Deadly Shadow" capstone is taken by the halfling pure assassin.

IronClan

04-02-2013, 08:41 PM

I would.

I see no reason why a character who does not specialize in being an assassin would have the same DC as another character who does specialize in being an assassin, ceterus paribus. More generally, those who specialize should gain more power in some ways, in exchange for having a narrower focus and a tool kit that's not as diverse. If you don't specialize, then you should give up some power, in exchange for having a broader set of tools. If these statements are not true, then that's conceptually weak and in practice probably a balance problem, and not something to celebrate.

In even more general terms, prestige classes were all about tradeoffs, from the beginning. Early Kensais, for example, weren't just a way of building a straight up better fighter; kensais were better than fighters in some ways and worse in others, which made sense. And that's exactly how I'd like DDO to be; if you want rewards from specializing, then specialize. If not, then don't.

Assassinate DC 10 + Rogue Levels + INT

Assassinate DC 20 + 1/2 Rogue Levels + INT

Which one of those doesn't reward the specialist? The answer is both still reward the specialist.

Which one both rewards the specialist but also allows a viable way to Assasinate OKAY but not as well, for a character with less rogue levels? a 12 rogue 8 Monk in Example A is giving up 8 DC, the same Ninja-Assasin in example B is giving up 4 DC (okay Class split is probably 14/6, for a -6 or -3 DC but that's not the point). Fair to say one is non-viable and the other is just landing it less. Both are clearly worse at Assassinating than a 20 Rogue, it's just that ONE of them might actually be worth some opportunity cost and a +5 INT Tome and Herculean Gear grind to try and pull off (i.e. a fun build challenge)

IMO it's possible to have the BEST be the specialists, while also not making it completely non-viable for any multiclass to be merely okay at it.

Most of the game works like this, only a few abilities like Assassinate still require overly rigid pure builds. Hell even casting DC's are not tied specifically to class level.

I want more choices, not less. To me the strength of DDO has been the build creativity, it's why I came back (other MMO's just don't have it). I am really incouraged to read that they might be dropping conventional tier III PrE level requirements to 16, hopefully they also drop Tier II to 10. That change alone might make my Pali a more interesting build to play.

It would be really cool if the enhancement pass ends up making for more tough choices instead of more non-choices.

(note also the base DC can of course be changed to a more complex forumla for game balance, I just went with the simple easy to illustrate example)