Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Aelonwy]

Agreed!
While my favored soul certainly benefit from this change, I don't see it happening. Dividing up the damage lines into light, good, chaos, law would just show how lacking the offensive divine spell selection is in DDO. Divine casters would go 7/6/6 in light and ignore the others. If Angel of Vengeance III or Exorcist of the Silver Flame are ever released (not holding my breath after years of waiting), then we might see some divine spell additions accompany them.

I was not so much concerned with the separation of the Light/good/chaos/law lines but with the balance of the benefit versus the AP cost. Currently wiz/sorcs get +20% with 1 AP and an additional +5% with each additional AP whereas clerics get 10% to healing/negative for instance with 1 AP and it costs 2AP for an additional 10%, 3AP for the next 10%, 4AP for the last 10%. So for wiz/sorcs currently spend 7AP for +50% damage to their favorite damage spells, and clerics spend 10AP for only 40% bonus to healing/harm. Since clerics/favs souls don't really have an enormous number of damaging spells nor damage types it may possibly make sense to keep them in small groups similiar to what we have now but with adjusted AP costs like wiz/sorcs enjoy. Perhaps keep healing/negative energy together, have light/good together, and have law/chaos together. If not then so be it. Personally as a cleric, my favorite character, I'm really only concerned with healing, light, and blade barrier/destruction/implosion.... the last of which I currently get NO enhancement bonuses to whatsoever. I hope that in the future cleric/Fvs will get at least some enhancement bonus to these spells even if comparatively its not anywhere near as substantial an enhancement line as our regular ones.

[azrael4h]

Personally as a cleric, my favorite character, I'm really only concerned with healing, light, and blade barrier/destruction/implosion.... the last of which I currently get NO enhancement bonuses to whatsoever. I hope that in the future cleric/Fvs will get at least some enhancement bonus to these spells even if comparatively its not anywhere near as substantial an enhancement line as our regular ones.

Well FvS already get bonuses to Blade Barrier damage, via their single current PrE, AoV. They get 20% to everything not covered under the smiting lines on tier 1, another 10% on tier 2. I don't know if those affect spells like Implosion or Destruction, on the damage on save parts. My sole active divine is currently on a TR run back to 20, so I can't check.

Another thing I thought of:

Clerics need a new capstone. The current one is situational at best, and one of the best situations have been removed from game as it is. One with +2 to WIS would help push them back in-line with FvS as far as DC goes. It would also mean that a 18/2 Cleric/Monk is only on par, in ocean stance, as a 20 Cleric, DC-wise. There's still plenty to speak for the 18/2 split however.

[Ralmeth]

MadFloyd,

Your list of goals sounds great to me! I'm looking forward to seeing more.

Ralmeth

[Failedlegend]

Why not take this opportunity to get the PrE's out of the game altogether and replaced with actual Prestige Classes?


No the way DDO handles Prestige Classes is 1000x better than the way 3.5 handles it characters with char sheets like this 1/3/2/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1,etc. were banned from my games and before I switched over to 4e I was trying to manufacture something similar to what DDO has (this was before I knew about DDO) except it wasn't reliant on classes.

I'd be fine with PrEs relying completely on skills, feats and enhancements and not on class but I'm 100% against them becoming actual classes



A few random thoughts:

1 - While I believe the thought is to change the UI to more of a streamlined "can-actually-find-****" model rather than the "big honkin' list" we have now, I think it's important to reiterate many people's concerns: DO NOT MAKE ANY ALTERATIONS WHICH FORCE PLAYERS INTO CERTAIN ENHANCEMENT PATHS. DDO's variety of build options are what makes this game, more than anything. No other MMO allows me to build a raid-healing capable character which is also capable of mixing it up in melee. No other MMO allows a buffing support character to provide either crowd control or melee dps, or in some rare, heavily geared cases even able to operate as a tank. Any change which reduces the number of viable builds is bad for both long and short term player growth and retention. MMOs die because eventually they do not offer anything new to their players, and people leave.

Agreed DO NOT change the way enhancements are taken just give it a better visual representations Natean's example is great...although I'd rather it starts at the top and goes down



http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d75/nobodynat/monktree.jpg




2 - Merge identical enhancements. You did it with Improved Skill enhancements; but many classes share identical enhancements which are not compatible with each other. Others have noted that this can create incompatibilities with certain multi-class builds and PrEs. Stat enhancements, for example. Rather than having Ranger DEX and Rogue DEX, have a single 'Professional DEX' with a level requirement in Rogue or Ranger. Instead of Cleric Improved Turning and Paladin Improved Turning, have "Professional Improved Turning" with x levels of Paladin or Cleric for prerequisites.

Add Action Boosts to that and it will also allow for alot of combinations that don't work currently ie. Battle Engineer/Assassin

Also Human Versatility should be able to substitute any action boost pre-req and the damage boost needs to be updated (it's still only +# instead of +%)

Lastly it would be cool if you multiclass to a class with the same class ability like turning you get to continue advancing that ability so a 6Paladin/4Cleric would Turn undead like a Lvl 10 Cleric or Paladin as well as any related enhancements (ie. improved turning) your Paladin or Cleric Level would be 10 in terms of a level pre-req.



3 - Higher-tier enhancements need to have AP costs reduced. Racial/Class Toughness IV is often not taken because it costs 4ap... compared to 1ap for tier 1. I actually like the thought of the first tier costing a bit more, while subsequent tiers are cheaper. Racial Healing Amp is horrendously expensive for the benefit of 10% on the third tier. I could go on. But in general; higher tiers should not cost 3-4x as much as the first but not provide any more benefit.

Personally I think 1/1/2/2 would suffice for the HP enhancements or even 1/1/1/1.



4 - Some classes need a serious looking into.

Rangers need animal companions similar to Arty constructs and ranged combat needs to be improved once this is done...make Rangers choose their combat specialization either ranged or melee.



4a - Barbarians could use a bit of help, every Barbarian is the same currently.

They don't really need help but they do need variation and honestly I think only PrEs could do this ie. Occult Slayer I would love playing a Barb if they were Mage Killers...less overall DPS (because your not taking frenzy) for Innate Silence-esque abilities (ie. smack with flat of blade cause bludgeoning damage and inability to cast for 5seconds) and utilities like increase speed(+5% or 10% per tier), spell evasion (works like evasion except for spells only and works in medium armor) and redcution and eventual removal of AC penalty during rage



4b - Monks need some cost reductions for stances and strikes, and something worth spending AP on at the low level so they're not stuck taking Improved Spot for a couple of points.

Yeah one of my main problems when I try to multiclass with monk or roll a pure monk is the first couple levels I find I don't even bother visiting the AP trainer.

I think a enhancements similar to SP increases would work but in smaller increments of course so like each tier adds 3 stable ki to your ki bar for a total of 15 at tier 5 make the first 2 tiers available @ Lvl 1 & 3 than tier 3 at 7, tier 4 at 12, tier 5 at 18.



4c - Paladins need a total-workover on their enhancement list; there is simply no way to take what you want and fit in useful racial enhancements like Racial Healing Amp. HotD is too expensive, AP wise, for a line which has limited value outside of a niche. Right now, the only general Paladin PrE I would consider is DoS, and that only post upgrade. KotC is nice... in specific content. As DDO grows, I hope to see plenty of non-Devil/Daemon content, which the more we get, the weaker KotC becomes. They also need a new capstone, since Artificers basically replace much of the functionality of their current one.


I haven't had much experience with Paladins except my Pally Tank I play in a static group and honestly the only reason I went with Pally over Fighter is because I was making a Knight character theme wise and Paladin fit better..its also the reason I opted against an Evasion tank since that wouldn't work in heavy armor. So both Paladins and Non-Pajama Tanks need a boost.



4e - Fighters need some work just to make their lines readable! Unlike the others, I think Fighter has a strong line of enhancements, but it's painful to even look at.

I'm hoping the Tree "grows" intelligently...so only current/availble enhancements show with the option of showing unavailable branches. IOW once I take Heavy Repeater Mastery the other weapons disappear...honestly though I'd rather it get changed into Slashing, Bludgeoning, Piercing or Ranged instead of each weapon individually.



4f - All primary melee classes should have at least two tiers of healing amp. Throw us Divine players a bone. 'Course, I doubt anyone will give up their precious "DPS" for being 20% easier to heal, but that's expected. They can just sit and cry about not having anyone to hjeal them. 2ap per tier.

Also let Heal Amp effect ALL forms of healing be it Repair, Positive or Negative




6 - Racial weapon enhancements are both too expensive, and too weak. 6ap for 2 to-hit? 6ap to 2-4 damage? To top it off, unless you are Horc and get all THF damage boosted, you're not getting boosts to the most common, high dps weapon type in-game; the Khopesh. Even for THF, the best you have now is a Greatsword. So only Horc's get bonuses there.

My suggestion is to reduce the costs, mainly on the second tiers (see #3). Add a third tier either increasing the critical range, or the multiplier on a natural 20. Perhaps both; though that may be a bit powerful. Then again, we're talking 6ap for each line (attack, damage, with each having a crit enhancement at the third tier). this would give Elven, Drow, and Dwarven melee a bump in dps with their racial weapons.

I think more weapons should added as well (added weapons in orange)

Dwarves - Axes, Hammers and Picks
Halflings - Thrown, Daggers and Kukri's
Warforged - Unarmed
Tinker Gnomes - Q-Staves (make it a magic boosting effect simlilar to potency), All kinds of XBows, Gnomish Hook Hammer (or Sickle)


7a - Drow could add their SR enhancement lines back in, allowing them to actually have a higher SR than others. With Epic casters having such a high CR, I don't know where the balance would be at to have "not completely worthless in epic" and "not completely immune to spells in non-Epic".

I think it would be cool if Drow got Spell Damage Reduction working the same way that Monk Earth Stance or the Shield Mastery feats work except for spells..each tier adds 5% with 4 or 5 tiers available





7 - Elves, more than any race need some help.

I think Elves ability to reduce ASF should be less clunk, Also they should be able to get choose one of their Caster Level and increase it based of their other classes (Divine Classes don't count...interesting thing to add to dwarves)

ie.

Rank 1 - Other Arcane Classes increase you chosen Class CL by 0.5 and reduces all sources of ASF by 5%

Rank 2 - Other Arcane Classes increase you chosen Class CL by 0.5 and Non-Caster/Hybrid Classes increase it by 0.25 while you reduce all sources of ASF by 5%

Rank 3 - Other Arcane Classes increase you chosen Class CL by 0.5 and Non-Caster/Hybrid Classes increase it by 0.25 while you reduce all sources of ASF by 10%

Rank 4 - Other Arcane Classes increase you chosen Class CL by 0.5 and Non-Caster/Hybrid Classes increase it by 0.25 while you reduce all sources of ASF by 20%

Progression would be 1/1/2/4



7b - Mentioned before, by myself and others, here and elsewhere. Give Drow an exclusive racial line for INT, CHA, or DEX, rather than just DEX. This will give them a DC edge as a Sorcerer, Bard, Artificer, or Wizard.

Personally I'd prefer if they were made a +2 Cha. -2 Con 32pt. Race and they release an Int race like Tieflings or Tinker Gnomes



9 - More PrEs!

I'd say at least two COMPLETED PrEs for each class w/ a general idea of what the theme of the third ones will be ie. Arty B-Engineer and Construct Master completed but while Runic master is unreleased it specialize in UMD and Rune Arms or w/e

Also take a look at some less useful PrEs like Virtuoso, Acrobat, Mechanic, DWS,etc.


Another random thought: if melee are to be the sustained ability sub-group, how about modifying the extra x boost lines to more along the lines of regens? Say, 5 minutes for 1 action boost for the first tier, 3 for the second. Might make that 12 and 16 points spent a bit more attractive.



5 - Action boosts are a great way to give players a more active job when playing melee dps roles. However, unless you are a Horc Fighter Kensai, you only get 5-7. Even those only get what, a half-dozen more? I suggest reworking the "Extra Boost" lines into recharging boosts instead. Horc's can keep the extra boosts, since I think every class which gets an action boost also gets a class extra boosts line.

How about having the action boost length increase with each rank 1 (ie. Rank 1 30 seconds, rank 2 40, rank 3 50, rank 4 1 minute) and have the actions boosts regain one for ever Natural 20 which is also a confirmed crit you get.


Maybe a PrE that is ddostore only... I can't imagine turbine making so many changes without selling something in the ddostore :p

No


[color=lightgreen]Remember when they changed the group UI? nothing changed in the machanics behind the scenes but its still a bone of contention with many players (especially healers) who find it hard to read (especially mana when ki is there as well).

Changing UI is certainly not one of the Devs strong-points if history serves us.


I actually LOVED the first UI and dislike the fact that they changed it again

[voodoogroves]

No the way DDO handles Prestige Classes is 1000x better than the way 3.5 handles it characters with char sheets like this 1/3/2/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1,etc. were banned from my games and before I switched over to 4e I was trying to manufacture something similar to what DDO has (this was before I knew about DDO) except it wasn't reliant on classes.

Heh ... those are gimps. There are plenty of deep PRC splashing folks who aren't ... but if you don't know what you're doing you're going to end up in trouble.


I'd be fine with PrEs relying completely on skills, feats and enhancements and not on class but I'm 100% against them becoming actual classes


I'd love to see non-wizard pale masters (cleric anyone?), non-sorc savants (Bard Air Savant would amuse me), etc. Care would need to be taken to ensure costs are balanced, etc. It'd rock. Some should maybe stay restricted, but others I'd love to see opened up. Kensai. Tempest.

[Failedlegend]

I'd love to see non-wizard pale masters, non-sorc savants (Bard Air Savant would amuse me), etc. Care would need to be taken to ensure costs are balanced, etc. It'd rock. Some should maybe stay restricted, but others I'd love to see opened up. Kensai. Tempest.

Yeah I'm not suggesting that EVERY class should be able to easily get every prestige but it should be less retricted maybe make it "Power Source" ie. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Hybrid

[azrael4h]

Add Action Boosts to that and it will also allow for alot of combinations that don't work currently ie. Battle Engineer/Assassin

Also Human Versatility should be able to substitute any action boost pre-req and the damage boost needs to be updated (it's still only +# instead of +%)

Those were only quick examples, ALL identical enhancements should be merged in such a fashion, both for readability and for PrE compatibility.



Lastly it would be cool if you multiclass to a class with the same class ability like turning you get to continue advancing that ability so a 6Paladin/4Cleric would Turn undead like a Lvl 10 Cleric or Paladin as well as any related enhancements (ie. improved turning) your Paladin or Cleric Level would be 10 in terms of a level pre-req.

Makes sense, though there's simply not too many classes with a specific ability like turning.



Rangers need animal companions similar to Arty constructs and ranged combat needs to be improved once this is done...make Rangers choose their combat specialization either ranged or melee.

The arty dogs are only slightly less crappy than regular summons. Take away their dual focus that they have now and they would be so far below what they are now that you may as well remove them from the game. The ONLY saving grace of the Ranger is having both full TWF and Manyshot available. Animal companions will not change this. Arguably, it will make them weaker. Ranged will not ever become a viable stand-in for melee given the devs' stance on the matter, so will remain primarily situational tactical use with Manyshot.

Let me reiterate; making Rangers suck so bad that only completionists and Drizzt noobs would play them is NOT the way to "fix" them. They need an increase, not raping them further into worthlessness.




They don't really need help but they do need variation and honestly I think only PrEs could do this ie. Occult Slayer I would love playing a Barb if they were Mage Killers...less overall DPS (because your not taking frenzy) for Innate Silence-esque abilities (ie. smack with flat of blade cause bludgeoning damage and inability to cast for 5seconds) and utilities like increase speed(+5% or 10% per tier), spell evasion (works like evasion except for spells only and works in medium armor) and redcution and eventual removal of AC penalty during rage

That's the main help I referred to; more variety. I also think they should get the %-based damage reduction because the other three main melee classes can get it far more easily than the Barbarian. While I don't think Barbarians should ever have a tanking PrE, as they are a pure DPS class, as a divine player I will not shun Barbarians becoming less squishy and easier to heal.



Also let Heal Amp effect ALL forms of healing be it Repair, Positive or Negative

Repair vs healing already has advantages over positive energy healing, as does PM Undead form "healing", and is already strong enough that outside of scroll healing a tank, they are generally overkill in all but the most dire situations. As the bulk of the games actual healing abilities are positive energy, Healing Amplification should remain unique to positive energy healing.





I think more weapons should added as well (added weapons in orange)

Dwarves - Axes, Hammers and Picks
Halflings - Thrown, Daggers and Kukri's
Warforged - Unarmed
Tinker Gnomes - Q-Staves (make it a magic boosting effect simlilar to potency), All kinds of XBows, Gnomish Hook Hammer (or Sickle)

Curious about why Unarmed for WF, but agreed, more weapon choices is a good thing. No gnomes though. Tinker Gnomes are Dragonlance specific critters, and all Gnomes are only good for setting on fire, loading into a catapult, and flinging into an enemy city.


I think Elves ability to reduce ASF should be less clunk, Also they should be able to get choose one of their Caster Level and increase it based of their other classes (Divine Classes don't count...interesting thing to add to dwarves)



Personally I'd prefer if they were made a +2 Cha. -2 Con 32pt. Race and they release an Int race like Tieflings or Tinker Gnomes

Drow stat layout is fine as is; it's matching their PnP counterpart. The problem lies in the fact that at current their stat bonuses only match Human/Helf in the end-game, they have few viable enhancements, and their penalties (not a 32pt build, -2 CON) outweigh the gains. Making them a +2 CHA/-2 CON race would kill what little of an advantage that they have now, may as well remove them then.

Again, Tinker Gnomes are Dragonlance-specific, and like all gnomes are useful as food and little else. Except Devil Whiskey's Gnomes, which are cute. I'll sign adding Tieflings for a +2 INT race.



How about having the action boost length increase with each rank 1 (ie. Rank 1 30 seconds, rank 2 40, rank 3 50, rank 4 1 minute) and have the actions boosts regain one for ever Natural 20 which is also a confirmed crit you get.


That would work as well. Just trying to make the boosts more useful and sustainable.

[Coldin]

Looking forward to seeing what it looks like. Hopefully these changes will balance out the power of different enhancements.

[Failedlegend]

The arty dogs are only slightly less crappy than regular summons.


I disagree the arty consrtuct aside from a few bugs (I still maintain Arty Pets are the tiral run for familiars, animal companions,etc.) is a quite effective ally...sure he's no where near a PC Tank but honestly If they were I'd be calling for a nerf. IF you disagree well I'm guessing you just had a bad experience with a bad player.



Take away their dual focus that they have now and they would be so far below what they are now that you may as well remove them from the game. The ONLY saving grace of the Ranger is having both full TWF and Manyshot available. Animal companions will not change this. Arguably, it will make them weaker. Ranged will not ever become a viable stand-in for melee given the devs' stance on the matter, so will remain primarily situational tactical use with Manyshot.


The only reason their dual focus is needed is because they don't have enough spells nor do they have their companions as well as the fact that ranged combat is borked overall (although a well built ranged arty can give some barbs a run for their money DPS wise) if ranged combat and animal companions were added Rangers would be OP and the separation would be required.





Curious about why Unarmed for WF, but agreed, more weapon choices is a good thing.

Warforged have the ability to alter their bodies and one of the things they can do is enhance their fists so I figured making unarmed a racial weapon for them could reflect that

Another thing to think for the future is when a druid shapeshifts they drop their weapons but Warforged druids can meld those to their arms so they don't lose them when they shift they don't lose the benefits

Overall I just want to see more body modding enhancements for Warforged




I hate Gnomes


Good for you


Tinker gnomes don't beling in Ebberon

I disagree with you but thats not really the point...the point is +2 Con/-2 Str is a useless stat spread so I'd rather they have their old school stats of +2 Int...which in 3.5 is tinker gnomes +2int/Dex, -2Str/Wis. I could care less if Turbine just calls em Gnomes as long as they keep the stats

[sebastianosmith]

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

I'd really like to see an entire character planner in-game. Ron Hiler's work is fantastic and much appreciated by the community (many, many thanks Ron), but having to depend on his continued good graces, generosity, time and effort to support what has become in essence the third rail of DDO seems somewhat short-sighted of Turbine. Making the act of character creation less, for lack of a better term, clunky would lower the barrier to entry of the game as a whole and may draw new players.

[Snarglefrump]

Here's how I'd like to see the enhancements UI work:


Include a search box so I can quickly find the enhancement I'm look for.
When I select an enhancement that requires other enhancements, show me the requirements and the total cost. Let me easily add them all without having to find and choose them all by hand.
In the list/tree of enhancements I've selected, make it clear which ones are requirements for other things.
When resetting my enhancements, let me add/subtract relative to what I had before. Having to start over from scratch is a time sink.

[Naerethil]

I don't usually write on the forums, but talking about a new "re-do" of the enhancements is something that encourages me to add my 2 cents.

I think there should be 3 main branches of enhancements:

- Racial Enhancements.
- Class Specific Enhancements.
- Cross-class Enhancements.

The first one, as its name implies, is about improving some traits that each race is supposed to excel at. Bonus to abilities, racial damage/hit, or racial prestige classes should be here. You'll need to have a character level equal to the enhancement level requirement (as well as the lower "tier" enhancements related) to learn it.

The second relates to some traits only available to a certain class. Monk stances enhancements, artificer pet enhancements, prestige classes... should be here. You'll need to have a class level equal to the enhancement level requirement (as well as the lower "tier" enhancements related) to learn it.

The last one relates to traits that two or more classes share. Turning undead enhancements, skill enhancements, spell damage enhancements... should be here. You can learn one of these enhancements if the sum of all your classes that share the enhancement equals the enhancement level. For example, if "Summon Paragon Dancing Kobold I" enhancement requires Level 9, and your character is a Level 4 Bard and a Level 5 Mystic Innkeeper (and both classes share that enhancement), you should be able to learn it.

I think the cross-class enhancements will help a lot with multiclassing. For example, a cross-class enhancement for bard/artificer/wizard/sorcerer that improves your arcane caster level by 1 (max. up to character level), or just a cross-class Improved Turning so Paladin/Cleric can be HotD and Radiant Servant at the same time, or even... Cross-class Prestiges? :)

And the UI, well... I don't think it's actually so bad, but I suppose it should be a bit more clean and visual. As many people have suggested, a search enhancement tool and a enhancement planner should be nice too.

Well, that's all.

[jkm]

They are missing some rules on the backend that have to be addressed if you want to split of PrEs from classes (so that they are more like prestige classes). Without being able to nest criteria into OR clauses (which they can't now) you can't have 2 primary requireds.

[Aelonwy]

Well FvS already get bonuses to Blade Barrier damage, via their single current PrE, AoV. They get 20% to everything not covered under the smiting lines on tier 1, another 10% on tier 2. I don't know if those affect spells like Implosion or Destruction, on the damage on save parts. My sole active divine is currently on a TR run back to 20, so I can't check.

Another thing I thought of:

Clerics need a new capstone. The current one is situational at best, and one of the best situations have been removed from game as it is. One with +2 to WIS would help push them back in-line with FvS as far as DC goes. It would also mean that a 18/2 Cleric/Monk is only on par, in ocean stance, as a 20 Cleric, DC-wise. There's still plenty to speak for the 18/2 split however.

I've not really played with FvS much but just because FvS gets a bonus to BB on its only PrE doesn't mean both cleric and FvS couldn't benefit from some spell enhancments to BB/destruction/implosion... all that would have to be done is to make sure that the PrE bonus would stack with the spell enhancement bonus should someone (whom has access to both) decide to spend the APs for both. Its of course not absolutely necessary but it would be nice seeing as how these are the damage spells clerics use quite often and must depend solely on equipment to boost.

Agreed about the cleric capstone. I forgot about it because its so less than useful I haven't seen a need to be a full cleric. Making the choice between getting cleric capstone or multiclass benefits actually matter... ouch. It would make me both happy and sad. If it was good enough I might have to buy a heart to get it. Happy and sad.

[azrael4h]

I've not really played with FvS much but just because FvS gets a bonus to BB on its only PrE doesn't mean both cleric and FvS couldn't benefit from some spell enhancments to BB/destruction/implosion... all that would have to be done is to make sure that the PrE bonus would stack with the spell enhancement bonus should someone (whom has access to both) decide to spend the APs for both. Its of course not absolutely necessary but it would be nice seeing as how these are the damage spells clerics use quite often and must depend solely on equipment to boost.

Agreed about the cleric capstone. I forgot about it because its so less than useful I haven't seen a need to be a full cleric. Making the choice between getting cleric capstone or multiclass benefits actually matter... ouch. It would make me both happy and sad. If it was good enough I might have to buy a heart to get it. Happy and sad.

IMO that is how multi-classing should be; tough choices between one very effective choice and another. Not like our current situation with Clerics, where the gains of 2 Monk vastly outweigh the gains of pure Cleric. Just not having to deal with spam invites is enough of a boon for me. Most of my cleric builds that I never run past the planning stage all have a level of fighter, monk, or barbarian just to prevent spam invites... even if they're max-WIS builds.

[azrael4h]

I disagree the arty consrtuct aside from a few bugs (I still maintain Arty Pets are the tiral run for familiars, animal companions,etc.) is a quite effective ally...sure he's no where near a PC Tank but honestly If they were I'd be calling for a nerf. IF you disagree well I'm guessing you just had a bad experience with a bad player.

I'm sorry, but when my arty's dog works, he's an aggro control disaster. He runs ahead, often through traps, attacking anything in sight. When he doesn't work, he basically wastes computing resources to render. They are not remotely effective. At best, when he works he usually can take a beating far beyond your typical pug melee, though he can't hold aggro, and he can't do much damage. Then again, someone has to repair his gimp butt, and since I got the repair wands and spells... No one is calling for a nerf because they're only slightly better than hireling fighters. And I'm having a hard time thinking of a reason to take doggy over a hireling. If you disagree you've never played an artificer.

If Artificer shipped without any dog, the class would not change whatsoever in it's capabilities. They would be essentially the same, with more effective sp from not repairing the dog.




The only reason their dual focus is needed is because they don't have enough spells nor do they have their companions as well as the fact that ranged combat is borked overall (although a well built ranged arty can give some barbs a run for their money DPS wise) if ranged combat and animal companions were added Rangers would be OP and the separation would be required.

Rangers are the least powerful melee class in the game right now. They lag behind Paladins, and significantly behind Barbarians and Fighters. Your answer to that is to make them weaker, thus ensuring that the weakest class cannot ever be considered over-powered? Rangers have had enough nerfs between Tempest being raped and TWF being made into some WoW like thing.

You seem to feel that ranged combat will be brought up to a point where it matches melee dps, and an archer can remain an archer full time. The devs have stated that they do not want to see a point in which no one melees because everyone just pulls out a bow. Ranged is already highly effective when used as intended; when tactically necessary. Running backwards while going pewpewpew in a sewer, no. Bringing down dangerous targets at safe distance very quickly, yes.

Remove their dual-focus, then remove them from the game. Just because you have an intense hatred for the Ranger class, and want it removed from the game doesn't mean they shouldn't at least try to make it on par with the other melee. I kinda liked my Ranger, and part of that was knowing I could act as the situation demanded, rather than not being able to do much other than charge everything like a Barbarian.




I disagree with you but thats not really the point...the point is +2 Con/-2 Str is a useless stat spread so I'd rather they have their old school stats of +2 Int...which in 3.5 is tinker gnomes +2int/Dex, -2Str/Wis. I could care less if Turbine just calls em Gnomes as long as they keep the stats

I don't even feel that Gnomes will add anything to the game myself. Even with +2 INT, I can't see them becoming popular for anything in particular. I doubt Turbine will do another F2P race (it's not really necessary, just improve Elves a bit to be more on par with the other F2P), and while more P2P options are desirable, they have to be desirable. I think even Kobold would gather more sales, just for the sake of novelty, than Gnomes would.

Teiflings would make sense for a +2 INT Race, and would likely sell fairly well. Just because it's edgier, be a demonic fiend! Marketing and all that. Gnome it would be "Be a garden statue! Make bad commercials for some random website!"

[Riggs]

Hopefully this will lead to more options in the enhancements, as it is now, there are alot of cases where you are forced to take useless ones just to spend points, and there are alot that you just simply cannot, not take without gimping your character.

+1 to that.

The 'must have spent 'x' action points' to access some lines needs to be lower than it is now. When AP are as tight as they are, combined with some lines that are either close to useless or super expensive - having to spent AP on things you dont want, dont need, and will not, or cannot actually use is such a waste as to be painful.

"Sure you get this ability - but it is going to cost you 1/3 of all your AP to access it - and the 20 AP spent on pre-reqs and boosting your AP total will be of no use to you. Have a nice day."

[Riggs]

i wondered why the halfling line was so exspensive, and from a race of healer house why dont they get healing AP choices like healing amp? though the +int and +cha for drop maybe a bit OP i can understand with drow Arcane, theres very little gap if any between a fully geared human DC vs full geared drow DC..



Good point - Healing +jorasco/halfling seems like a natural reason to have some kind of healing enhancement line 'healers friend' for a fleshy basically.

And yeah given most other races get to pick a +2 line based on their stats that get a bonus, drow get pooched by not having that - they should be given a 'pick one line' and get access to either dex/int/cha - all 3 would be overkill, or be a bit like human, and get to put 2 points into any of the 3 stats in any amount, +1 dex +1 int, +2 int, etc. Being 28 points at base drow are pretty meh otherwise.

[Riggs]

Crit Rage in my mind was the first prestige enhancement and never should have been done away with. It is viable and with the last nerf to insta-kills it is in no way over powered.

The fact that people still keep it and refuse to reset anything on their character after several years in fact shows just the opposite - that it is overpowered.

Turbine made critical damage way too important, and way too overpowered, and we have a ton of power creep as a result of too many crit enhancements over simply base damage enhancements.

Khopesh.
Sos.
Epic Sos
Barb crit rage.
FB x3 crit damage.
Bloodstone as one of the most valuable trinkets in the game for so many years.

I remember how absurdidly OP a crit rage dual wop rapier barb was before the changes to stat damage and making epic new epic stuff mostly immune to stat damage.

The fear of the changes are that they will change so many things that a wide range of valid builds get nurfed or simply no longer work they way they were supposed to work. Worrying about a several year old OP enhancement line is not one of the worries however.

Like someone said - bragging about how great kobold cookies are is an extremely low bar of what is considered good or exciting to actual players. New changes might be good. Hope they are good. Want them to be good.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I don't even feel that Gnomes will add anything to the game myself.

I can build you a gnome illusionist bard that would rock yer socks off, or is it my socks, or is it MadFloyds socks? You get the idea? :)

Adding gnome IF they add the illusion based spells to the game would be off the hook, especially if it would also grant bards of all flavors more spell selections...

[slimkj]

Another thing popped into my head about this; most games seem to prefer a graphical based skill tree approach. Whilst I understand that might be popular, I prefer text lists (although it could be better done than it is now) so a choice of design would be nice. I don't mind the tree approach but collapsing linked lists or similar would be appreciated. Irritates the hell out of me having to hover over things to see what they do.

[krackythehoodedone]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHH.

I knew this day would come.

Mr Mad One please step away from the conversation.

Resetting the Enhancement will mean losing Crit Rage. This will completely destroy everything i just spent two years finishing.

Please please dont kill the old Crit Rage enhancement for Barbs.

[Memnir]

Please please dont kill the old Crit Rage enhancement for Barbs.Or even better - put it back.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Or even better - put it back.

Exactly what I JUST said to my guildie when I read Kracky's post.

This would satisfy the most Barbs I believe as well. You'll always have the grievers either way.

[voodoogroves]

Or even better - put it back.

Maybe call it the Ravager, whatever ... but yes. Give Barbs that option; auto-reset of enhancements was painful on my arcanes ... I can only imagine those folks that have been sitting on crit rage for years and how bad it will hit them in the gut.

[Eladrin]

I'd like to see more linear progressions...

I dislike the 1,2,3,4 AP costs... especially when the 4th step gives the same power as the 1st step...

I'd like to see more 1,1,1,1 options... maybe even 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...
Currently we're trying to make as many of the new enhancements follow a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 model as possible. Most of them will have 5 ranks in my current proposal, with class level requirements on the ranks.

Dragonmarks enhancements definitely should be lowered to 1,1,1,1... Dragonmarks are way too weak already... costing 10 AP to get 4 more dragonmarks is way too expensive.
We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.

In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.

We're doing what we can to make every tree appealing.

It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree.

Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.

[Coldin]

Currently we're trying to make as many of the new enhancements follow a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 model as possible. Most of them will have 5 ranks in my current proposal, with class level requirements on the ranks.

We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.

In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.

We're doing what we can to make every tree appealing.

It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree. Barbarian Critical Rage, for example, isn't currently on the list, though something somewhat like it may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line. (Ravager Capstone!)

I really like what I'm hearing so far. Especially with Prestige Enhancements being open to all classes.

[voodoogroves]

Currently we're trying to make as many of the new enhancements follow a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 model as possible. Most of them will have 5 ranks in my current proposal, with class level requirements on the ranks.
awesome

We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.
This would be great - it would be awesome if dragonmarks were mechanically useful in and of themselves. The best right now is Sentinel and not because of what it does itself, but because of how it interacts with one item.


In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.
Is this going to work the other way? Can I have a wizard-savant or a FVS Radiant Servant ... or a bard air savant boosting the sonic spells?


It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree. Barbarian Critical Rage, for example, isn't currently on the list, though something somewhat like it may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line. (Ravager Capstone!)
Yes - melee needs the love and this will help the crit-ragers who are ultimately going to get hit hard otherwise.

[Eladrin]

I really like what I'm hearing so far. Especially with Prestige Enhancements being open to all classes.
The PrE's aren't entirely open to all classes at this time - the restriction of you can only have one PrE from one class is going away.

However, each race will be able to take a racial enhancement to unlock a tree associated with a class - Dwarves can select Stalwart Defender, Elves can take Arcane Archer, and so on.

[waterboytkd]

We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.

I think this is a great idea, though I might include a slight tweak: for some builds, AP are tighter than feats, so if you could make it so that you could take the Lesser and Greater marks as either feats or enhancements, that would offer the maximum flexibility.

Of course, the idea that AP are tighter than feats might disappear with the enhancement pass.

But I like!

Also, I am all for making linear benefit have linear costs. If each tier of an enhancement line offers the same benefit (+1 stat at tier 1, +1 stat at tier 2, and +1 stat at tier 3, for example), then I think each tier should cost the same (using the previous example, 2 AP at tier 1, 2 AP at tier 2, and 2 AP at tier 3).


The PrE's aren't entirely open to all classes at this time - the restriction of you can only have one PrE from one class is going away.

That's how I understood your original post, and I think that's fine still. Yes, PnP PrCs could be taken by any class that could meet the prereqs, but the PrC system was not without its flaws. I like the idea that PrEs are tied to a class, and the removal of the restriction of one PrE per class is going to open up some really cool builds. Kensai/Stalwart Defenders! Thief Acrobat Assassins! Shintao Henshin! Lava (earth and fire) savants! My god. DDO could be getting WILD.


However, each race will be able to take a racial enhancement to unlock a tree associated with a class - Dwarves can select Stalwart Defender, Elves can take Arcane Archer, and so on.

Oh wow. I mean, Dwarf getting Dwarven Defender...that would make dwarves one of the sickest classes...unless, of course, every race got a sick PrE (Horc could get Ravager or FB, Halfling or Drow could get Assassin, Helf could open any one PrE from their Dilly, Human could...I don't know; what about warforged? is warforged juggernaut still coming? if so, pretty pretty please make it a viable option for any class), which is more or less what you said. You didn't say get access to a sick PrE...and you should. Or, better yet, make sure that all PrEs are as sick as the others... :D

[Scraap]

The PrE's aren't entirely open to all classes at this time - the restriction of you can only have one PrE from one class is going away.

However, each race will be able to take a racial enhancement to unlock a tree associated with a class - Dwarves can select Stalwart Defender, Elves can take Arcane Archer, and so on.

So assassin 2, mech 1 for instance to maintain the instakills with a side order of ganking those hard to reach places then?

[Lifespawn]

So assassin 2, mech 1 for instance to maintain the instakills with a side order of ganking those hard to reach places then?

i took what was said to mean if you had a racial that used to take it's place as a class pre that was changing

also that a 12 ftr 6 pally could now take stalwart and dos

[Lifespawn]

Currently we're trying to make as many of the new enhancements follow a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 model as possible. Most of them will have 5 ranks in my current proposal, with class level requirements on the ranks.

We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.

In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.

We're doing what we can to make every tree appealing.

It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree.

Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.

happy about the changes except the crit rage my poor bowbarian will be useless :(

[waterboytkd]

i took what was said to mean if you had a racial that used to take it's place as a class pre that was changing

also that a 12 ftr 6 pally could now take stalwart and dos

Actually, if you look, his AA/Tempest example didn't specify race. He just said that he plans on doing away with the 1 PrE per class rule. Now, my question becomes: are we still limited to 3 tiers of PrE? Let's pretend the AP were there to do it, could we take Kensai 3 and Stalwart Defender 3 on the same toon?

[BattleCircle]

Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.

This would make me and many many others extremely happy, giddy even.

[azrael4h]

Currently we're trying to make as many of the new enhancements follow a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 model as possible. Most of them will have 5 ranks in my current proposal, with class level requirements on the ranks.

So will these be front-loaded, like the arcane damage lines are now? e.g. 10hp at first tier for Toughness enhancements, 5 per after? (just an example, no one get worked up or start comparing me to Hitler for this).



We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.

Awesome. Are you going to expand the list of powers on offer for the marks, say giving Greater Teleport to Passage-marked Humans with a certain level? Even as is, I can definitely see working in the marks more on my builds.



In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.

Nice. So We'll be seeing Kensai Defenders then? I can see melee players gaining a lot of lost ground with that, if they can slip in both PrEs.



We're doing what we can to make every tree appealing.

It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree.

Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.

You just made Shade happy. :P For that matter, the thought of unique capstones for each PrE line makes me happy. Almost as much as more PrEs. Just please don't restrict the capstones to those PrEs. RS, for example, is extremely good, and I could see building a melee-type Cleric, but still using RS for healing rather than Warpriest. An example, but still, this falls in line with #1 of my first post.

[Coldin]

The PrE's aren't entirely open to all classes at this time - the restriction of you can only have one PrE from one class is going away.

However, each race will be able to take a racial enhancement to unlock a tree associated with a class - Dwarves can select Stalwart Defender, Elves can take Arcane Archer, and so on.

Ahh, I see. Still, that's much better than the current system.

But what will humans get I wonder? They always felt like a poor choice as far as enhancements go. No racial weapon. No racial prestige.

[Eladrin]

Oh wow. I mean, Dwarf getting Dwarven Defender...that would make dwarves one of the sickest classes...unless, of course, every race got a sick PrE (Horc could get Ravager or FB, Halfling or Drow could get Assassin, Helf could open any one PrE from their Dilly, Human could...I don't know; what about warforged? is warforged juggernaut still coming? if so, pretty pretty please make it a viable option for any class), which is more or less what you said. You didn't say get access to a sick PrE...and you should. Or, better yet, make sure that all PrEs are as sick as the others... :D
I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)


Actually, if you look, his AA/Tempest example didn't specify race. He just said that he plans on doing away with the 1 PrE per class rule. Now, my question becomes: are we still limited to 3 tiers of PrE? Let's pretend the AP were there to do it, could we take Kensai 3 and Stalwart Defender 3 on the same toon?
Yes, you can take both of those to 3. (It would take most of your action points to do so.)


So will these be front-loaded
It will depend on the enhancement. Something like "Stealthy" (replacing Improved Hide and Improved Move Silently) will be +1 per rank. Certain special attacks and other bonuses are likely to be more frontloaded.


Awesome. Are you going to expand the list of powers on offer for the marks, say giving Greater Teleport to Passage-marked Humans with a certain level? Even as is, I can definitely see working in the marks more on my builds.
One of the stretch goals is to have additional acquirable abilities for the Dragonmarks. These may not make it in the initial release. (Improved Dragonmark of Healing -> Jorasco Jadehand)

[sephiroth1084]

Currently we're trying to make as many of the new enhancements follow a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 model as possible. Most of them will have 5 ranks in my current proposal, with class level requirements on the ranks.

We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.

In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.

We're doing what we can to make every tree appealing.

It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree. I like the sound of ALL OF THAT! Oooh! :D


Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.
My issue with Crit Rage (and I don't have it on anyone), is that some people have had to go without changing their enhancements for years now, and for at least a few characters, their having this is rather central to their character build (bowbarians). If you don't want that to remain the case, say so, but this is going to really upset a few people. Moving it to a capstone won't help most of them.

I'd love to see the ability to gain Crit Rage opened up to everyone, particularly if it can be used to make an interesting archer to add some variety, but I don't see this happening in a way that satisfies those, admittedly few, people who have held onto this with whitening knuckles.


The PrE's aren't entirely open to all classes at this time - the restriction of you can only have one PrE from one class is going away.

However, each race will be able to take a racial enhancement to unlock a tree associated with a class - Dwarves can select Stalwart Defender, Elves can take Arcane Archer, and so on.
I really like the sound of this, but how would it work for, say, a Dwarven Paladin? Would the benefits of Defender of Siberys and Stalwart Defender stack? Would they still lock each other out?

As far as being able to pick up multiple PrEs...I like the idea, but it looks to me like it could be unbalancing in some ways. With the addition of lowered AP costs as well, that looks even more problematic. A Kensai Stalwart would have more Str most of the time than a barbarian, in addition to probably more HP and all the other benefits of both. Do you want wizards to be able to pick up both Pale Master and Archmage as a double-necro spec (+4 to DCs)? I like the options this implies, but am a little leery of some of the results...


By the way, I posted a thread with comments and some suggestions on the AP situation for paladins here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4249196&posted=1#post4249196

[Aashrym]

Currently we're trying to make as many of the new enhancements follow a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 model as possible. Most of them will have 5 ranks in my current proposal, with class level requirements on the ranks.

Sounds like an improvement. I don't thing front loading them is the best approach. I would be looking at standard increments from start to end.


We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.

I like this idea. Feats are a restricting factor on most builds and paying 1 feat for the chain of dragon mark abilities would definitely make them more accessible.


In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.

I'm a bit more l cautious on that but would have to do the wait and see. I can see OP combinations happening and if the combinations are too good it would still be restrictive in our choices. A very poor choice is pretty much the same as that choice not existing.


We're doing what we can to make every tree appealing.

I would hope that is BAU. I would expect you to be doing everything you can to make it appealing. :D
On that same note, however, what you think might be appealing might not match what we think would be appealing. More information and then better feedback. ;)


It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree.

Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.

That last line sound like we might see more choices in capstones, which starts off as optimistic. I think adding barb crit range into a pre profile sounded like a heck of an idea when it was mentioned earlier and I'll /sign that one.

What I wouldn't mind seeing would be sets of skill bonuses combined and have the bonus added. No one is going to want to spend AP on swim enhancement but if we had athletics enhancements, for example, that add to jump and swim and maybe something +1 Fort save it becomes a bit more attractive. Other skills that are more attractive on their own (IE UMD) are fine without the added incentive to take them.

[voodoogroves]

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)

Would Stalwart replace (effectively) Dwarven Defender?

One of the stretch goals is to have additional acquirable abilities for the Dragonmarks. These may not make it in the initial release. (Improved Dragonmark of Healing -> Jorasco Jadehand)
Blade of Orien? Nonsomatic Chiurgen? I can beg if it helps get them to a commit ;-)

[sephiroth1084]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.) Is it intentional for these to be melee-specific? Is this a psuedo-buff to melees relative to casters? Is it because everyone can swing a weapon and has HP, but only some have SP and spells?

Does the human/half-elf ability grant access to any of the PrEs the other races get, or to any PrE?


Yes, you can take both of those to 3. (It would take most of your action points to do so.) Is that implying that Tempest will have some AP added to its prerequisites, or have some of the feats replaced with enhancement prereqs?



It will depend on the enhancement. Something like "Stealthy" (replacing Improved Hide and Improved Move Silently) will be +1 per rank. Certain special attacks and other bonuses are likely to be more frontloaded. Oh! Are we getting some combined skills enhancements? I'd enjoy that!

[Coldin]

I would like to see more attention given to Paladin's smite ability through Enhancements. A tree devoted to increasing it's damage, uses, and perhaps other affects would be very neat. The current enhancements has some of this, but not really enough that smites can be a paladin's primary area of focus.

[Aashrym]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Halfling: Assassin

In the books I've read they were more into devices and pictures depicting halflings they have typically been armed with a crossbow. Any thoughts on mechanic instead other than assassins are more popular currently?

[voodoogroves]

In the books I've read they were more into devices and pictures depicting halflings they have typically been armed with a crossbow. Any thoughts on mechanic instead other than assassins are more popular currently?
In eberron they are into healing and hospitality.

Except when they are into poisons and murder (Nonsomatic Chiurgen)

I'm fine with them getting Assassin.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I am absolutely loving what I'm reading Eladrin!

I would hope that Dragonmarks becomes a project in 2012. I can see it really sweetening the deal.

Boy, breaking off PrEs from classes has got to be the best news I've heard from Camp Turbine in 4+ years. I think many will enjoy it (so many more build options will become available). I'm optimistic at this point that you "will do it right".

[Silverleafeon]

Happy dance...

[Pwesiela]

In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.


I am not a fan of this. PrEs are a specialization within your class abilities. Making an AA/tempest means you don't really choose. You should be limiting other options as you open new options within your class. What's the point of of Prestige otherwise? This would take a lot of convincing for me.

How can you be a paragon of defense (Defender) and yet a paragon of offense (Kensei)?

[Battlehawke]

While most of these changes sound exciting, clearly some of the current "builds" will be broken. In other words I've spent years developing one of my builds into the ideal tank and the requirements after the changes may make my very effective toon very ineffective. There has been very little given by Turbine over the years to compensate us in any way after such a "nerf". With such "Ultimate" changes coming, will you give us all +20 GR token for each of our toons, or is this just another way to squeeze a little more money out of us to fix our own toons that are clearly going to be nerfed?

I'm not saying they all will be nerfed, just some. Clearly some will be made better.

[Failedlegend]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender Well My Dwarven Arcane Tank is gonna love that
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin Hmmm...any chance assassin stuff works with Ranged weapons...cause I have this Halfling artificer who's very inteligent
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. Any as in..any racial PrE or ANY PrE
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf Makes Sense


Comments in red....the forum build gurus are gonna have a field day with these...whats the timeline of this stuff...like next update or like 2013?

[Hellllboy]

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. Again, I invite PMs for those who prefer to voice their opinions that way.

Not that I don't appreciate fine tuning the game-but I could think of a ton of different issues that should be prioritized before Enhancements. I would agree that new players may find it difficult to navigate at first-but most players get used to it soon enough.

[azrael4h]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)

So are the feat pre-reqs also being changed? Tempest, for example, would require no less than 7 feats... putting it effectively a Ranger or Fighter only PrE, even for a Drow (TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Spring Attack, Dodge, Mobility, TWD/TWB/whatever the other options were). Tempest, right now, isn't worth taking to tier III, and the cost has me debating the use of even tier I and II compared to what they give. AA also has this issue, though I'll admit a lack of familiarity with Defenders and Assassins. Ravager, of course, does not exist on live so I can't look at it.

If the feat reqs were loosened, I can see Drow getting a decent bump though. FvS Tempest Avengers? Cleric Tempest Warpriests? Bard Tempest Warchanters? But if it can't fit in with the core healing/casting feats and toughness, then it will be just a red herring. It won't open up many build possibilities at all. Maybe some obscure PM/Tempest build somewhere.



One of the stretch goals is to have additional acquirable abilities for the Dragonmarks. These may not make it in the initial release. (Improved Dragonmark of Healing -> Jorasco Jadehand)

One more question regarding the marks; will they open up enhancements to boost them? Like the Half-Elven mark which gives Call Lightning Storm. It's useless save for a Wizard (who has better things to burn 3 feats on) or maybe Artificer. Or the Halfling healing marks. Will we be able to buy enhancements which boost these abilities? What about the idea about regenerating uses, for more sustained use of these abilities. Or is that more an idea for the Dragonmarked Heir lines?

[Aashrym]

Well My Dwarven Arcane Tank is gonna love that

I have a dwarf pale master who was just waiting to try out such an opportunity. ;)

[Tsuarok]

You guys are not allowed to implement these awesome changes!! I have to study!!!

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I am not a fan of this. PrEs are a specialization within your class abilities. Making an AA/tempest means you don't really choose. You should be limiting other options as you open new options within your class. What's the point of of Prestige otherwise? This would take a lot of convincing for me.

How can you be a paragon of defense (Defender) and yet a paragon of offense (Kensei)?

Very good comment. As you may have guessed, its not so simple. But there is a very good explanation.

Pen and paper D&D Prestige Classes rarely (if ever) required a base class. They required BAB, skills, feats, and/or generic "spellcasting" of a type.

For example, for most melee/tank-oriented prestige classes, you needed a certain BAB score and certain feats. Barbarians, Rangers, Fighters, and Paladins were all viable options to get to most melee type prestige classes. Once you were in the Prestige Class, things looked relatively equal. You ceased to level in your specific base class but became more like the eventual result of the Prestige Class. The point being that it didn't matter what base class you started off in. You could even start as a Cleric, Rogue, or Wizard and eventually qualify.

D&D prestige classes were all about the Role and function, not the class itself. There are many PrCs that don't translate to PrEs very well because you simply can't tie them to a class - they're tied to a ROLE.

Take Eldritch Knight for example. What's the role? An arcane spell slinging melee type. Spell Slinging? Does that mean Wizard, Sorcerer, or Bard? Does melee mean Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, or Paladin? The answer is yes - it can mean all of those. Another is the Sacred Fist. Divine spellcasting on a fist-fighting melee. Monk by definition? Absolutely not. A monk/cleric would qualify, as would a pure class Druid, Ranger or Paladin that took the right feats. It's completely impossible to peg many PrCs to a specific Class even though the Role is very well defined.

DDO has, in effect, pegged Roles TO Classes with the Prestige Enhancement System. Specifically, viable fighting types. If you want to fight, you're a Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin, and even the Paladin in that group is highly suspect. D&D made no such requirements or pegs. Anybody was a viable melee combatant if built properly (feats, PrCs, equipment, etc).

The biggest losers here are hyrbrid builds. And by that, I mean anything that typically does X, but is capable of doing Y very very well. Because Turbine has chosen to only implement PrEs that offer a 1 (or sometimes 2) dimentional aspect of a base class, anything not conforming to Turbine's preconieved notions of what that class is meant to do is essentially non-viable in endgame scenarios.

Earlier (up to level 9 or 10) in the leveling cycle, these non-standard builds work fairly well as the gap between different classes isn't nearly as noticeable. Same is true for PnP. However, in PnP you can actually pick up the Prestige Class made for your Role. In DDO, you're stuck to a base class or two, with little chance of ever being able to fulfill that desired Roll.

Thats why I think its great to hear that Turbine wishes to correctly untie Prestige Enhancements from most base classes.

There DOES need to be a limit. Limiting us to 2 or 3 PrEs per character (heck, 2 for non-humans and 3 for humans would work too). Or 1-2 for that matter, as long as all PrEs are available to all classes. There are also limits to how MUCH training you get and WHEN you can start taking the training based on class, time and other factors.

Since this will be a big win for mixed class builds over what we have now.. there needs to be clear benefits of staying pure. This is why enhancements and even capstones may change to make it all work.

At the end of the day, all your toons should feel like the same toons, except with better training and more effective execution!

Lastly, with so many more ways to fulfill your roles as a fighter mage, as a battle cleric, etc etc, the less card stock, cookie cutter builds we'll see running around.

[Eladrin]

How can you be a paragon of defense (Defender) and yet a paragon of offense (Kensei)?
Stances are one way to preserve some of the stacking issues we didn't have to worry about before.


Human: Pick one. Any as in..any racial PrE or ANY PrE
It'll likely be "pick one from a list", but still needs to be finalized. This might be a place where we vary that list by your classes - a human Paladin might be able to take a divine tree like Radiant Servant, while a human Fighter would be able to pick a martial tree like Assassin. Exactly what to do with the humans is still heavily in the To Be Determined area.


So are the feat pre-reqs also being changed? Tempest, for example, would require no less than 7 feats... putting it effectively a Ranger or Fighter only PrE, even for a Drow. AA also has this issue, though I'll admit a lack of familiarity with Defenders and Assassins. Ravager, of course, does not exist on live so I can't look at it.
There will be fairly large changes to the prereq system for enhancements. PrE's will be gained by spending points in their associated tree. (Spend X points in the Assassin tree and have 6 levels of Rogue [or Halfling] and you're considered an Assassin I.)

Some of the tree enhancements will have feat prereqs, (i.e. can't get Improved Power Attack without Power Attack...) but we're trying to keep the specific requirements of enhancements as simple to understand as possible.

Some of the abilities that are currently attached directly to PrE's are now in the tree - the Assassin poisons, for instance, will be selectable enhancements in the Assassin tree and will work fairly differently than they do now.


One more question regarding the marks; will they open up enhancements to boost them? Like the Half-Elven mark which gives Call Lightning Storm. It's useless save for a Wizard (who has better things to burn 3 feats on). Or the Halfling healing marks. Will we be able to buy enhancements which boost these abilities?
I'll look into having Improved Dragonmark enhancements boost the associated mark healing/damage.

[pasterqb]

All the Dev respones in this thread gives me tears of joy.

[NostalithilDarkstar]

please get rid of the "total point spent" prerequisite

[Dreamshifter]

Lots of interesting possibilities in this rework. I am definitely liking what I am hearing, a lot. Especially if it makes adding future PrEs easier. Anything that gets rid of old code, in favor of new, more functional code, is a great thing. However, this...


This might be a place where we vary that list by your classes - a human Paladin might be able to take a divine tree like Radiant Servant

I will admit to having to hold in a "Squeeeee!" over. Now comes the torture of waiting on these changes. At least I've got months to go before I TR again, I guess...

[Failedlegend]

So basically this is what you guys have been hiding from us or at least part of it.



Some of the abilities that are currently attached directly to PrE's are now in the tree - the Assassin poisons, for instance, will be selectable enhancements in the Assassin tree and will work fairly differently than they do now.


Any chance while your doing this you'll change explanations to include was does and does not function with ranged (which frankly poisons should) and just clean up the tool-tips in general (although I guess since your rewriting alot of enhancements they will be rewritten anyways)

I CANNOT wait for this to hit Lama...and hope you plan to put in on there nice and early so we can playtest and break it :P (I think you mentioned something about this earlier)

[Pwesiela]

Very good comment. As you may have guessed, its not so simple. But there is a very good explanation.


Thank you for the input, it makes me feel a bit better.

I guess I just worry about dwarven defenders with radiant servant and defender of syberus becoming the ultimate self healing tank to tank the end all. Meaning that if you're not a dwarven defender of stalwart syberian radiance that you're not the tank the party is looking for.

[jkm]

There will be fairly large changes to the prereq system for enhancements. PrE's will be gained by spending points in their associated tree. (Spend X points in the Assassin tree and have 6 levels of Rogue [or Halfling] and you're considered an Assassin I.)

Are you still planning on having the most powerful additions as predominantly that same class?

Using your example, right now Assassin 3 is exponentially more powerful than Assassin 1 (I don't want to even get into the silliness that is FB3 vs FB1). This type of power up the chain decreases the viability of multiclassing and locks people into being cookie cutters.

[Failedlegend]

you're not the tank the party is looking for.

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4041/4539038521_d4961be28e_z.jpg

[azrael4h]

Stances are one way to preserve some of the stacking issues we didn't have to worry about before.


It'll likely be "pick one from a list", but still needs to be finalized. This might be a place where we vary that list by your classes - a human Paladin might be able to take a divine tree like Radiant Servant, while a human Fighter would be able to pick a martial tree like Assassin. Exactly what to do with the humans is still heavily in the To Be Determined area.


There will be fairly large changes to the prereq system for enhancements. PrE's will be gained by spending points in their associated tree. (Spend X points in the Assassin tree and have 6 levels of Rogue [or Halfling] and you're considered an Assassin I.)

Some of the tree enhancements will have feat prereqs, (i.e. can't get Improved Power Attack without Power Attack...) but we're trying to keep the specific requirements of enhancements as simple to understand as possible.

Some of the abilities that are currently attached directly to PrE's are now in the tree - the Assassin poisons, for instance, will be selectable enhancements in the Assassin tree and will work fairly differently than they do now.


I'll look into having Improved Dragonmark enhancements boost the associated mark healing/damage.

All this is sounding awesome. Whats more awesome is that we're actually getting some feedback here. Thank you for coming out and being up front with this, especially on a Sunday when you should be off.

[Dreamshifter]

I guess I just worry about dwarven defenders with radiant servant and defender of syberus becoming the ultimate self healing tank to tank the end all. Meaning that if you're not a dwarven defender of stalwart syberian radiance that you're not the tank the party is looking for.

Well, Eladrin already stated that taking two PrEs up to level 3 would take most of your AP, so that should restrict people to two at most. And will no doubt leave them lacking in other areas. That said, once it hits, I'll be checking out a Dwarf Paladin, and seeing what stacks between DoS and SD. Likely, not enough stuff to make the combo work.

Still, I won't say that such concerns are meaningless, that's for sure. This is going to be a delicate balancing act for the Devs, and we (the DDO community as a whole) will definitely need to help them find those potentially broken combinations. Heck, this discussion has prompted me to start installing the Lamma server again, which I haven't been on in years (has it really been that long? :eek: ). Here's hoping that these changes are as good as they potentially could be, and not as disastrous as we fear.

[arkonas]

you know is there any way for example if that paladin was able to use radiant servant. ok i just dont want to see clerics get replaced but say for example they learn some of the line but only some of the abilities and not as good as a cleric would be.

so i guess what im saying is how will it effect pure classes or will the multiple trees now be the way to go?

[jkm]

I'll look into having Improved Dragonmark enhancements boost the associated mark healing/damage.

The dwarven line needs to be rethought. Maybe bonus damage but scorpions become like rusties to them? (Haverdasher joke)

Second, Is there any plan to push the purchaseable past life feats into the enhancement system? Right now it is so heavily biased against the 7 feat classes it isn't even funny.

[jkm]

So one other idea you can tear apart is the idea of importing an XML template into the Enhancement UI that would highlight for people what enhancements they should take when.

Since everyone uses offline planners, it would allow them to put it into Ron's system and spit out something to suck into the game that would show them what they needed without having to alt-tab back to whatever they were doing.

[Aashrym]

There will be fairly large changes to the prereq system for enhancements. PrE's will be gained by spending points in their associated tree. (Spend X points in the Assassin tree and have 6 levels of Rogue [or Halfling] and you're considered an Assassin I.)

Some of the tree enhancements will have feat prereqs, (i.e. can't get Improved Power Attack without Power Attack...) but we're trying to keep the specific requirements of enhancements as simple to understand as possible

So what are the chances we will be able to cherry pick enhancements from the PrE's like splashing classes? My thoughts are will I be able to make a bard with warchanter IC bonus, enthrall, bonus spell dc, and sp regen all in one bard on a system like this, as an example?

[gloopygloop]

All of this sounds like we'll be able to pick up some great stuff and we'll probably be able to sqeeze a little more our of some classes that are currently AP starved (Paladin), but that we will have a large enough variety of fun toys to choose from that we will end up with real variety in our characters.

I like that.

[Nataichal]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)


)


I see this as being either A)Overpowered B)Unbalancing and/or C)Creating a blend where it is far less meaningful what your class is.

[geoffhanna]

The PrE's aren't entirely open to all classes at this time - the restriction of you can only have one PrE from one class is going away.

However, each race will be able to take a racial enhancement to unlock a tree associated with a class - Dwarves can select Stalwart Defender, Elves can take Arcane Archer, and so on.

What is the halfling special? Dino-rider?

(really hoping it is dino-rider)

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Thank you for the input, it makes me feel a bit better.

I guess I just worry about dwarven defenders with radiant servant and defender of syberus becoming the ultimate self healing tank to tank the end all. Meaning that if you're not a dwarven defender of stalwart syberian radiance that you're not the tank the party is looking for.

You'll always have party leader robots who only want cookie cutter builds that they think is "most efficient" or the "only way to win". However, by giving us so many more builds the ability to "get the job done" in more situations means more questing more of the time. This is a big boost to pugs, smart builders, and if the UI is improved, just about everybody will benefit.

If we see more communication like this thread, improved testing (for bugs/exploits), improved ui, finished pres, and druids this year - it will be a gigantic 2012.

[sirgog]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)


IMO Warforged will not work well as Defenders at all until Repair Amplification items are added to the game, and at least some of those items are of comparable quality to the healing amplification items available today.

A Warforged Defender with 100% incoming Arcane healing and 101.4% incoming Divine healing (Healer's Friend 1, 20% amp item, 30% amp item) requires twice as much healing to tank a boss as a Human in the same gear (Human Imp Recovery 3, 20% amp, 30% amp for a total of 202.8% incoming divine healing).

This is an insurmountable obstacle to Warforged playing a tanking role at present endgame. I am not aware of even ONE warforged that has tanked epic LOB on any server and I've never even seen one tank nLOB.

[geoffhanna]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)


Boo. patrly because Halflings do not get Dino-rider, but mainly because it is assassin.

I am so not interested in that. Assassin is an INT PrE but halflings are a DEX race. Is there synergy with the backstab bonus? Yes maybe, but assassin really just brings a whole buttload more abilities that don't apply to most of the end game.

If you're going to pick a rogue PrE out at random, pick Acrobat. Have a PrE ability that makes qstaff a finesse weapon, and another that allows you to apply DEX to qstaff damage. Way more synergy there than there would ever be with Assassin.

Or you could go all Eberron on us and make it a Halfling Barbarian PrE. Because we are playing in Eberron and all. And halflings are Barbarians in Eberron. Or at least many of us are.

But regardless, Assassin does us no favors at all. Seriously.

Meh, I am way too basking in happy Broncoland too get too worked up over this. Maybe tomorrow.

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
See? Happy faces all around
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[waterboytkd]

I see this as being either A)Overpowered B)Unbalancing and/or C)Creating a blend where it is far less meaningful what your class is.

I have to disagree. As long as all races have a great racial PrE, overpowered doesn't apply (it's a relative term).

As for unbalanced, Stalwart Defender is probably going to be one of the best racial PrEs (+6 Con, +20% hp), but 2-4 races will have access to it. Halflings get Assassin, meaning any melee class can get access to a great insta-kill (though I might get rid of the Stealth requirement of Assassinate--just make it so you can't have aggro). We don't know how good Ravager is, but considering Horcs are the kings of melee dps, I imagine it'll just give you more of the same (great choice for one-trick ponies). Elves get access to good ranged dps (which a melee toon that wants more soloability might consider; MIGHT). Humans and Helves get access to, well, any of that. All of that sounds good (Ravager being unknown), so I don't think it's unbalanced.

As for negating your class, I think your class is still your core, and determines what you'll be mostly doing. I see the racial PrEs as ways to either expand your uses, increase survivability/soloability, or (making assumptions about Ravager) just give you MOAR dps.

So, I really like all this.

[Don1966]

from the Dev comments in here it seems that PrE's are getting a bit more make over than just the UI enhancement. would there be any chance of removing or changing the worthless prerequisites for some of the PrE's? for instance, radiant servant 1 and 2 requires improved heal 1 and 2, no cleric i know of puts any skill points into heal and would never spend precious AP trying to boost that skill. also prayer of life and incredible prayer of life are required, again i don't know of any cleric that would want to put an AP into this if they didn't have to, throwing out a heal and hoping for a crit on it to save the day is something no good cleric does. i could argue that improved turning is worthless but i realize some builds do turn and would want to take it regardless but there are a lot of builds that don't try to turn and for them that is another wasted AP. looking over the requirements for Pale Master i don't see anything in there that a pale master wouldn't take anyway. changing the cleric prereq's from improved heal 1 and 2, prayer of life 1 and incredible prayer of life 1 to the smiting line and improved turning to extra turning would make me very happy. of course if you do manage to roll out war priest my cleric will probably take that instead.

[Scraap]

One thing on pre-reqs and racials: can we get mental toughness to add a blue-bar, so things like aa or other ones you may add as a racial sla for instance are powered, even without resorting to a required class mix (or an enhancement line that's part of the pre its-self of course)?

[sirgog]

Thank you for the input, it makes me feel a bit better.

I guess I just worry about dwarven defenders with radiant servant and defender of syberus becoming the ultimate self healing tank to tank the end all. Meaning that if you're not a dwarven defender of stalwart syberian radiance that you're not the tank the party is looking for.




You'll always have party leader robots who only want cookie cutter builds that they think is "most efficient" or the "only way to win". However, by giving us so many more builds the ability to "get the job done" in more situations means more questing more of the time. This is a big boost to pugs, smart builders, and if the UI is improved, just about everybody will benefit.

If we see more communication like this thread, improved testing (for bugs/exploits), improved ui, finished pres, and druids this year - it will be a gigantic 2012.

If there is a clear 'best tank' build, either you bring them, or you are weakening your group unnecessarily.

This is not an issue if content is of low to medium difficulty (e.g. epVON6, hard Shroud or epChrono) where you will be able to bring anything and still win. But if we get hard content in future, the ability to min-max can very quickly become 'min-max or you cannot win'.

You somewhat see this in epLOB at the moment, where most groups (excluding rare 3 tank groups) won't attempt the raid unless one or more of their tanks has 900+ HP and 82 Intim with no external buffs except GH.

[jkm]

One other point for further options. It would be nice if Favored Souls had a polar opposite enhancement line for Cursed Soul. It would basically be like the light/dark monk and effectively add 2 classes to it instead of just 1.

[Captain_Wizbang]

The PrE's aren't entirely open to all classes at this time - the restriction of you can only have one PrE from one class is going away.

However, each race will be able to take a racial enhancement to unlock a tree associated with a class - Dwarves can select Stalwart Defender, Elves can take Arcane Archer, and so on.


Outstanding news.

[LeLoric]

Wow seems like a much more ambitious plan than I had expected.

With changes of this scope I run into some pretty big concerns.

Most any character is gonna find they need a different feat or maybe don't need a feat for a prestige anymore. Hopefully some free feat respec tokens would be nice or better yet just lesser hearts.

It definitely seems like many more choices are available and lots of new build types are going to be out there. I always appreciated DDO in that every character is somewhat unique. Will this be too much though in that you can't recognize one fighter from another. Kinda makes pugging out a specific role a little hard to do.

With such a vast change and being able to combine and mix and match form different class/race options. Please oh please find a way to note which stack or make everything stack. Some things we have taken years to figure out through testing and having to start that process completely over again wihtout some definitive wording will be confusing/frustrating to players.

Will there be generic non-pre quailifying enhancements. There are currently enhancements that any prestige class would take like sneak attack training for rogues inspire courage buffs for bards. If these only count for one prestige it kinda makes other prestiges more gimp by nature. Or better yet have core enhancements like those above count towards any prestige.

[Scraap]

It definitely seems like many more choices are available and lots of new build types are going to be out there. I always appreciated DDO in that every character is somewhat unique. Will this be too much though in that you can't recognize one fighter from another. Kinda makes pugging out a specific role a little hard to do.


Notion on that: hows about changing the current class selection in lfms and party displays into PREs instead? If they are going with the notion of 'role is your pre, class is your baseline bag of tricks' anyway.

[LeLoric]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)




If dragonmarked prestige is not to be included what then becomes of the tod set?

Oh and will the race/class combo of say a half-orc barbarian be able to get a better version of ravager or is a kensai half-orc gonna be a better ravager than a barbarian.

[azrael4h]

you know is there any way for example if that paladin was able to use radiant servant. ok i just dont want to see clerics get replaced but say for example they learn some of the line but only some of the abilities and not as good as a cleric would be.

so i guess what im saying is how will it effect pure classes or will the multiple trees now be the way to go?

Well, in that particular case, the Paladin gets to be more resilient, and able to help keep a party going longer, but they still won't have the burst healing of the Cleric. Most likely, they won't carry the gear to boost the aura and burst near as much either. Maybe a full Party of high Healing Amp Pally RS builds could raid without a dedicated divine, via just their massed auras, but I doubt 99% of the groups forming will have so many Paladin RSII builds in them to make Clerics or Favored Souls no longer needed. However, I do see more experienced groups desiring a Paladin RS build in the group.

Furthermore, as Eladrin said it would take a huge AP investment to take two full PrEs, I doubt we'll see that happening. Especially if more things are boosted into desirable status, like the Dragonmarks. AP's will probably be too tight even with cost reductions if there are more desirable enhancements to pick from.

I think we'll see 2/2 or 3/1 splits on the PrEs being taken for various builds, rather than a full Radiant Defender of Syberis type build. I also see more classes finding roles outside of their current niches.

I also doubt things like stances will stack; so I don't see Dwarven Double Defenders at all. Things like Rage canceling out Defender stances as well, Power Surge possibly being typed the same as Defender stance bonus, etc...

I do agree with Sirgog about WF not working well with Defender. I have gotten to the point that I will not run any of the tanking raids as a divine without a fleshy tank. Just so much easier to deal with, assuming some level of gear and competence from the tank in question. I'd almost rather have a meatbag rather than a WF Tank (meatbag meaning a normally dps build attempting to tank without truly being built to tank, like Barbarians). On top of that, I would like to see them get something different than Dwarves. I feel much the same about Half-Elves and AA, though at least that is understandable. Maybe give WF Kensai instead? And while we're at it, Half-Elves Acolyte of the Paper Bag. The tier 1 ability is a paper bag over their heads. ;)

[LeLoric]

One good thing is when this hits lamannia I don't think they will have trouble getting people over there. Gonna take some vast research to figure out everything.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

If there is a clear 'best tank' build, either you bring them, or you are weakening your group unnecessarily.

This is not an issue if content is of low to medium difficulty (e.g. epVON6, hard Shroud or epChrono) where you will be able to bring anything and still win. But if we get hard content in future, the ability to min-max can very quickly become 'min-max or you cannot win'.

You somewhat see this in epLOB at the moment, where most groups (excluding rare 3 tank groups) won't attempt the raid unless one or more of their tanks has 900+ HP and 82 Intim with no external buffs except GH.

I disagree with that first sentence. Its an overused statement that should not apply in many cases but is heard too often. On the rest of what you say, I agree totally. There is no doubt in my mind that this improvement will give a big head ache to those party leaders that like to limit their quests to only bard or only clerics or no rangers or no this or that. It wont be so easy anymore. And thats freakin SWEET!

We will be seeing quite a few more builds fulfilling roles in post Shroud to end game content that before just wasnt possible. There will be many more toons available alas less need to require only 1 type of build in order to accomplish a vital task in a quest/raid..

In content like epLOB, of course it will take a toon that has specialized for that level of content.

Now it may be possible to see more builds around with the math necessary to get more stuff done, and if so I think thats a very good thing.

[Silverleafeon]

Stances are one way to preserve some of the stacking issues we didn't have to worry about before.


It'll likely be "pick one from a list", but still needs to be finalized. This might be a place where we vary that list by your classes - a human Paladin might be able to take a divine tree like Radiant Servant, while a human Fighter would be able to pick a martial tree like Assassin. Exactly what to do with the humans is still heavily in the To Be Determined area.


There will be fairly large changes to the prereq system for enhancements. PrE's will be gained by spending points in their associated tree. (Spend X points in the Assassin tree and have 6 levels of Rogue [or Halfling] and you're considered an Assassin I.)

Some of the tree enhancements will have feat prereqs, (i.e. can't get Improved Power Attack without Power Attack...) but we're trying to keep the specific requirements of enhancements as simple to understand as possible.

Some of the abilities that are currently attached directly to PrE's are now in the tree - the Assassin poisons, for instance, will be selectable enhancements in the Assassin tree and will work fairly differently than they do now.


I'll look into having Improved Dragonmark enhancements boost the associated mark healing/damage.

Thank you so much!

[Diib]

Is there any chance you will look at the PREs and divorce them from the classes. That is, let us choose our PREs with even more flexibility?

In PnP (I know this is not PnP) prestige classes had a variety of pre-reqs, and often to get a prereq required some of a specific class features (Temple Raider requiring so much divine and so much sneak attack, for instance). This would still require some rogue, and some one of the divine classes, but wouldn't be a pre tied to a specific class.

Right now, the closest thing you have to the original system are the racial pres (a good idea). But if you are going back to the drawing board why not do it right?

Requirements for a PRE should be feats, caster levels, bab, skill levels, etc. Not x levels of class y.

Just a suggestion.

[Missing_Minds]

That sounds like level gating and PrEs is going away if you are going to take two different PrEs all the way up. Unless it is the race/class allowances like current.

So is level gating going to happen still? I won't be upset, just curios.

[LeLoric]

That sounds like level gating and PrEs is going away if you are going to take two different PrEs all the way up. Unless it is the race/class allowances like current.

So is level gating going to happen still? I won't be upset, just curios.




There will be fairly large changes to the prereq system for enhancements. PrE's will be gained by spending points in their associated tree. (Spend X points in the Assassin tree and have 6 levels of Rogue [or Halfling] and you're considered an Assassin I.)



looks like theres still level gating

[aradelothion]

a human Paladin might be able to take a divine tree like Radiant Servant

By that same token, would a human FvS be able to go radiant servant as well?

[sweez]

This is an insurmountable obstacle to Warforged playing a tanking role at present endgame. I am not aware of even ONE warforged that has tanked epic LOB on any server and I've never even seen one tank nLOB.

Jyrja tanked a coupla WL eLoBs on his WF SD (http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/ploratus). Wasn't "ideal" but it worked. Also Buki tanked plenty norms on his WF 18/1/1 monk.

[Pwesiela]

If there is a clear 'best tank' build, either you bring them, or you are weakening your group unnecessarily.

This is not an issue if content is of low to medium difficulty (e.g. epVON6, hard Shroud or epChrono) where you will be able to bring anything and still win. But if we get hard content in future, the ability to min-max can very quickly become 'min-max or you cannot win'.

You somewhat see this in epLOB at the moment, where most groups (excluding rare 3 tank groups) won't attempt the raid unless one or more of their tanks has 900+ HP and 82 Intim with no external buffs except GH.

This is where I worry. Can you honestly see an epic LOB taking any other tank if this is what's available? I've tanked eLoB on my tank. It's rough. Even at 1200 hp and 100+ac. And if I can get all that plus self healing and more hp/ac? I fear we get into the "one build to rule them all" WoW mentality.

[bhgiant]

This sounds amazing. The biggest/greatest part about DDO is the character customization/creation. These improvements will only amplify that, by a LOT.

-Putting things in trees decreases the difficulty of planning your character.
-Making prestige requirements "X amount in tree Y = prestige granted" instead of "take these enhancements in an exact order that you really didn't want but have to anyway ad nauseum" increases customization, originality, and flavor which is more fun.
-Opening multiple prestige classes to a class (whether a class prestige or race prestige) increases options which increases customization, originality, and flavor which is MORE FUN!
-Increasing options will decreases the number of re-rolls one has to do because you just realized that despite your hours of research, you didn't realize your build won't work the way you wanted it to. Less rerolls, less frustration, MORE FUN!

This isn't going to stop people from being min-max biased idiots in-it-for-my-epeen players who don't understand that fun to most people doesn't mean get the best lootz and do the most damage or urnewbgohooooome!111!! It does mean that there will be a whole lot less of them though, which makes me incredibly happy :D. The only thing wrong now is that I'm not going to have enough AP to make my Drow Assassin III also a Tempest III...

Edit: I just thought of something... I see a big downside now to going with a race and class that offers the same prestige line. If I go Halfling Assassin, I'm missing out on quite a bit of customization because I don't have an added racial prestige like Tempest from Drow. Sure they have the Halfling Guile line but that would hardly make up for it imo. Are you going to introduce a favored class concept like in PnP?

[Dreamshifter]

you know is there any way for example if that paladin was able to use radiant servant. ok i just dont want to see clerics get replaced but say for example they learn some of the line but only some of the abilities and not as good as a cleric would be.

so i guess what im saying is how will it effect pure classes or will the multiple trees now be the way to go?

From what we've been told, a Paladin might be able to grab RS, if Human. The cost? Lots of AP that probably won't help much outside the RS abilities, reducing DPS further. Will this replace Clerics? Probably not, but with a caveat.

It might replace some clerics, who really wanted to run a durable, self-healing Battle Cleric, but find the Cleric class (and FvS) to not be to their taste. Grabbing a Paladin with RS (with or without a Paladin PrE as well) might suit their playstyle better. And I don't think that's a bad thing. For those playing healing/casting Clerics? Heck no, this won't be nearly as good as a real Cleric, as a Paladin RS won't get any other healing.


By that same token, would a human FvS be able to go radiant servant as well?

Honestly? Probably not, due to mechanics. FvS don't get Turn Undead (Paladins do, even if it is worthless for anything other than fueling abilities for them), so they can't power the bursts and auras.

[BananaHat]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)


Please oh please consider something else for warforged. Having them copy the rightful dwarven line just doesn't seem right. The main other consideration...

Greatswords

Seriously, think of all the warforged clerics/favored souls/paladins out there who by following the one true path of the Lord of Blades will never touch a shield. I'm not sure what other path would be appropriate, but please make it one of them that works well with greatswords.

[Dreamshifter]

Please oh please consider something else for warforged. Having them copy the rightful dwarven line just doesn't seem right. The main other consideration...

Greatswords

Seriously, think of all the warforged clerics/favored souls/paladins out there who by following the one true path of the Lord of Blades will never touch a shield. I'm not sure what other path would be appropriate, but please make it one of them that works well with greatswords.

I really think SD for WF is a mistake, and a placeholder. I'm hoping they will change it once the real WF PrEs make it in.

[Cauthey]

Thank you MadFloyd, once again (!!!), for engaging the community on future design decisions. We love you for it! Or, at least, I do. *bro hug*

I'm not sure I'm that sour with the existing Enhancement UI. The biggest PITA is toggling what you have access to versus what you don't have access to, and then all of the scrolling back and forth.

Though, if I were to improve it, I would try to take a page from the Civilization IV (among others) technology tree UI.

With Civ IV, you could easily scroll to the technology that mattered (Bronze Working, Flight, Lasers, etc.), and click on it. The tree would automatically map you a "shortest distance" to said technology.

That being said, if I roll up a cleric, I've already heard about how awesome Radiant Servants are. However, being new to the class and enhancement lines, I have absolutely NO idea about how to get there. Oh! But this looks good! And clerics should do that...right? ...<insert further cherry-picking of the wrong lines here>

It would be nice if the enhancement UI had something off to the side on a panel that illuminated the necessary lines for the Prestige Class. You could click once on a button of Exorcist of the Silver Flame, Radiant Servant, or Warpriest that would change the color of all the pre-requisite enhancement lines. Perhaps click on it a second time to spend all remaining action points to automatically take as many of the pre-reqs as you can afford to get you there.

Another great feature would be some way to permanently toggle to hide enhancements that you have no interest in. "Yeah, my Human can take the Constitution ability score buff line. But, I don't need CON! Hide it!" Now, you don't ever have to look at that line again (perhaps even through resets) until you click on the "Show all hidden lines" button.

[CaptGrim]

Please oh please consider something else for warforged. Having them copy the rightful dwarven line just doesn't seem right. The main other consideration...

Greatswords

Seriously, think of all the warforged clerics/favored souls/paladins out there who by following the one true path of the Lord of Blades will never touch a shield. I'm not sure what other path would be appropriate, but please make it one of them that works well with greatswords.

Warforged Juggernaut!!!!

Please add this in, Divine healing penalties bull rush and all. (think abundant step with trip DCs on all mobs you pass through the hit box of.)

[CaptGrim]

I really think SD for WF is a mistake, and a placeholder. I'm hoping they will change it once the real WF PrEs make it in.

I agree, but the problem with place holders is the number of people you make upset when the REAL PrE makes it in and they pull the ol' switch-a-roo on them.

Leave it empty or finish it up right, Placeholders are bad unless you spam a big disclaimer on the enhancement window and that is about as unprofessional as ****.

[Artos_Fabril]

In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.
Cringing/Drooling over the possibilities from an AM/PM necro/enchantment wizard. Epic+ DCs in two schools with increased HP and SP? Yes please! (Spell Focus: Necromancy + Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy to qualify for both PrEs! Double down on Necromancy SLAs and DC bonuses!)

Will opposite element savants be locked out? Or will "Elemental Savant" really become a single PrE with 1 of 4 paths, but still allow a sorc to take a second PrE (Acolyte of the Skin)?

Has any thought been given yet to how this will affect ToD sets? Will they be "rebalanced" or otherwise changed?

Will monk PrEs be changed to allow shintao and ninja-spy simultaneously? If not, will monks be otherwise compensated for being the only (or rare) class absolutely locked out of one PrE by taking another?

[Dreamshifter]

I agree, but the problem with place holders is the number of people you make upset when the REAL PrE makes it in and they pull the ol' switch-a-roo on them.

Leave it empty or finish it up right, Placeholders are bad unless you spam a big disclaimer on the enhancement window and that is about as unprofessional as ****.

I fully agree, I'd rather they left it blank, if that is their plan. I'd hate for them to set it up, then have to annoy people later if they want to change it.

On the other hand, leaving WF as the only race without a racial PrE is almost as bad. Maybe they can leave SD in later on, and give WF (and maybe other races) multiple racial PrE (rPrE). There is a lore argument for both SD and WFJ (the Lord of Blades doesn't speak for all WF), but that kind of thing could be said of most other races as well (House J Halflings being the most notable). Have to wait and see.

[noinfo]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)



I really like most of these options alot. My primary concern though is the Aracne Archer that is currently available to Elf, at the moment having this as a racial PRE is not an issue as there are no other racial pre available but this will be a further limiting factor to the race once others become available. While it can be used in specific builds it requires splashing for a blue bar whereas other melee currently do not. Fitting with the woodland theme I would like to see them have the option of either AA or Tempest with one locking out the other.

Drow Tempest is an excelent choice, though if any race needs a bump in power its drow. I would like to see something along the lines of Assassin as an alternate option.

[scoobmx]

IMO Warforged will not work well as Defenders at all until Repair Amplification items are added to the game, and at least some of those items are of comparable quality to the healing amplification items available today.

A Warforged Defender with 100% incoming Arcane healing and 101.4% incoming Divine healing (Healer's Friend 1, 20% amp item, 30% amp item) requires twice as much healing to tank a boss as a Human in the same gear (Human Imp Recovery 3, 20% amp, 30% amp for a total of 202.8% incoming divine healing).

This is an insurmountable obstacle to Warforged playing a tanking role at present endgame. I am not aware of even ONE warforged that has tanked epic LOB on any server and I've never even seen one tank nLOB.

I've tanked plenty of nLOBs on Argo (I even have somewhat of a rep for inventing how to tank him). On epic it is not doable though. I posed the question to Rachna in her build thread with no response. We have one on Argo who tanks elob with a WF but you are required to be a monk splash fighter with pally PLs and stacked heal amp gear and enhancements. In other words there is only 1 viable build for tanking if you are WF and turbine has ruined the race altogether. Really now, a p2p flavor race? Come on turbine. Reduce the base heal penalty to 20% instead of 50 would be my vote. It also speaks to poor design when there is only 1 way to tank the guy, which is DR and heal amp. What happened to AC? My WF AC stalwart is getting the turbine shaft here. Also: where are the other items with heal amp 30? Only claw gloves. Really?

[waterboytkd]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)

So, I've been thinking about this more. First, Elves. Getting AA is a no-brainer (they already have it), but unless the requirements for AA get changed (like removal of SP prereq), it's also going to be a pretty niche choice (unlike Dwarves and Stalwart Defender, which any melee and most every caster will gladly go to). Perhaps, Elves should get a second racial PrE? Maybe Tempest as well (in D&D lore, especially Eberron, elves are big TWFighters, especially with their double-scimitars). Would be a little wild that elves would effectively get the same PrE lines as Rangers, but then elves are supposed to be quite rangery (again, especially Valenar elves in Eberron).

Also, as was mentioned, Drow are a pretty meek race choice right now (-Con, less build points/points chosen for you), so maybe you could give them Tempest or Assassin (Assassin would work excellently lore-wise as the Scorpion Wraiths).

To deal with them getting two PrEs, maybe you have the same system that humans will have that makes them choose one of the two. Or, heck, considering that elves and drow are largely considered the two weakest races in the game, just let them have both! They'd still need the AP to take both, but it'd open up some cool build options for the races that other races just wouldn't get.

Second, humans. Here's some input. Take it or leave it, however you feel:

You mentioned that class selection could determine what PrEs a human could have as his racial PrE. This would work well. Pick 2 PrEs per class that a human gets the enhancement tree for, but in order to start taking enhancements in either of those trees, he would have to "purchase" into it (maybe 2 AP spent on a base ability that's exclusive of the other PrE's base ability). Non-human (and non-helf) races would not have this extra cost (the benefit of not having this kind of flexibility). For example, if you are a human and take a level in Fighter, you would gain access to, say, the Assassin tree and the Tempest tree. You could only take enhancements from one of those trees, and your gate levels would be Human AND Fighter (so to get Assassin 1, you would need to be a human with 6 fighter levels). Cleric could get Angel of Vengeance and Hunter of the Dead.

Now, if you multiclass, you can gain access to more than 2 trees. Say you've got Fighter and Cleric levels, you would gain access to Assassin, Tempest, Angel of Vengeance, and Hunter of the Dead trees, but again, you could only take the base ability of one of those trees, could only get enhancements specific for one of those trees. This would give humans flexibility in PrEs based of their class, so you don't get useless PrEs for your class, and give multiclass toons the option of whatever PrE they want most/think is best. But I want to stress that the "slightly higher investment in Racial tree to unlock" can only be slightly higher. You don't want to make it so that human is a bad choice because the flexibility is too expensive (I think 2 AP higher, total, is about fair, given how tight AP can be). Also, if having a choice of 2 PrEs is too much flexibility, attach one PrE to each class.

Which brings me to helf. I honestly think Helf should be done in one of two ways (neither of which require a "gargantuan" AP investment): first, Helf should get access to a PrE based on their dilly. Each dilly has exactly one PrE associated with it, and, if necessary, new enhancements for each dilly could be introduced to make the PrEs mechanics function correctly for a helf of any class. I think this is the cleanest, and perhaps fairest, way to do it. NOTE: they would not gain AA anymore.

Second way: They gain access to multiple PrEs the same way humans do, only they also have the elf PrEs in their list (can still have a total of 1 racial PrE). This would be the same slightly higher cost that humans have. They would just get a few extra options (Tempest and AA). You could also make them choose between elf and human first (for 1 AP), which determines which PrEs they get to choose from (2AP), so they would be 1 AP higher than human for a racial PrE, and 3 higher than everyone else.

The big concern I have, though, is the use of the word "gargantuan". I can't stress enough how potent Stalwart Defender as a PrE is going to be. +6 Con and +20% health is amazing on anyone, sorcs and wizzies included (I know all the wf sorcs in my guild would try and fit it). Add a +6 Str to that and you have every melee drooling. The way I see it, the flexibility of human and helf would be the reason not to go dwarf. But if the cost for that flexibility is exorbitant AP costs, I don't know if too many people would find it worth it.

[Khellendros13]

I've tanked plenty of nLOBs on Argo (I even have somewhat of a rep for inventing how to tank him). On epic it is not doable though. I posed the question to Rachna in her build thread with no response. We have one on Argo who tanks elob with a WF but you are required to be a monk splash fighter with pally PLs and stacked heal amp gear and enhancements. In other words there is only 1 viable build for tanking if you are WF and turbine has ruined the race altogether. Really now, a p2p flavor race? Come on turbine. Reduce the base heal penalty to 20% instead of 50 would be my vote. It also speaks to poor design when there is only 1 way to tank the guy, which is DR and heal amp. What happened to AC? My WF AC stalwart is getting the turbine shaft here. Also: where are the other items with heal amp 30? Only claw gloves. Really?

Also tanked normal LoB on my WF Barbarian with Healers Friend 2, 20%, 30% and 10% ship heal amp.

[voodoogroves]

If we're doubling the class-race PREs (Arcane Archer ... Dwarven Devender -> Stalwart) then I'd like to see WF get something like Ravager or Occult Slayer or Kensai before Stalwart - unless there's amp-o-plenty options. There has to be a reason to use them as others have said. Kensai could be fun if the LOB faith spec. qualified you for Kensai in place of all the other feats. Then we'd see some tactics options on WF divine builds.

[Shade]

Currently we're trying to make as many of the new enhancements follow a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 model as possible. Most of them will have 5 ranks in my current proposal, with class level requirements on the ranks.

Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.

mmm Ravager.. Here's my ideas, trying to use your new 1,1,1,1,1 model:

Ravager I:
Requires:
Power Attack, Improved Sunder.
5 points spent in the Ravager tree (would include stuff like improved ppwer attack, improved intimidate, sprint boost)
6 class levels in Barbarian or Half-Orc

Benefits:
Pain Touch: Your melee attacks gain +1 Weapon Die. If your unarmed you instead gain +1d8 bludgeoning damage on melee strikes.
Sub enhancement - 1 AP:
Cruelest Cut I:
A special melee attack that deals an additional 1d6 evil damage over time. Also inflcits a 1d4 constitution penalty. Works similar to the current Ravager item damage over time effect: 15 second duration, deals damage every 2 seconds. Can be stacked up to 3 times for a total of 3d6 evil damge per 2 seconds, and 3d4 constitution penalty. The contitution debuff instead lasts 1 minute and works a debuff - thus works on all bosses and is useful for lowering raid bosses fort saves to meld well with the (required) improved sunder.
Cooldown: 10 seconds
Sub enhancement - 1 AP:
Aura of Fear:
Enemies within a doublewide AOE aura of the Ravager are shaken with fear. (Works as shaken does now: A shaken creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. )


Sub enhancement Cost 2 AP:
Visage of Terror:
The ravager has plumbed the true depths of horror and hopelessness.
Once per day (and it recharges once every 120 seconds) the ravager can trigger a special melee attack that deals normal damage plus acts as a spell like ability similar to the phantasmal killer spell. DC10 + Bbn/HalfOrc level + Charisma mod.
Add +5 to the DC if the attack is a critical hit, add +10 if it's a natural 20+confirm.

Sub enhancements for this tree:
Enhanced terror cooldown - 1/1/1 ap: -20 seconds recharge per, down to as low as 60 seconds.

Enhanced Terror DC: - 1/1/1 AP: +2 DC to visage of terror ability per AP.


Ravager II:
Requires:
12 points spend in Ravager Tree. (the above sub enhancements count also)
12 bbn or halforc levels.

Benefits:
Gain Barbarian Critical Rage I. (+1 critical threat while raged), Unarmed damage bonus increases to 2d8.
Sub enhancement - 1 AP:
Cruelest Cut II:
Upgrades the damage die to 1d8 per stack.

Ravager III:
Requires:
20 points spend in Ravager Tree. (the above sub enhancements count also)
18 bbn or halforc levels.

Benefits:
Gain Barbarian Critical Rage II. (+2 critical threat while raged), Unarmed damage bonus increases to 3d8.
Sub enhancement - 1 AP:
Cruelest Cut III:
Upgrades the damage die to 1d12 per stack.
Sub enhancement - 1 AP:
Master Pain Touch:
You've mastered your pain touch and can inflict critical pain causing grevious injury. This is a special melee attack with very long cooldown and limited uses that recharge slowly. It deals an additional 10 bleed damage per strength modifier you have (60 strength = 250 damage), if this attack is a critical hit, multiply the damage by 3. If this attack is a vorpal strike (nat 20, confirm), multiple the damage by 6 and of the enemy survives the attack, he must make af fortitude save throw or die (counts as a death attack). DC: 10 + Half Class/Halforc level + Strength mod.
3 uses per day. Cooldown: 15 seconds, Charges recharge 1 every 80 seconds.

Another enhancement in the Ravager Tree - does not require Ravager III.

Just some ideas ive been thinking about for a while..

Would make it so we never really lose crit rage for those who still have it. And be the ideal Bbn/Halforc PrE for DPS versus low fort targets, though more difficult to play as it relies on many active abilities.. While Berserker would likely remain best for high fort, especially undead/constructs (who will in some cases will be immune to some of the damage as its typed as evil/bleed dmg), and be a bit easier to maintain.

Berserker as a Rough idea i'd increase it's strength bonus, decrease the self damage, grant a powerful 8 second stun ability in it's tree, and a charge ability.

Occult Slayer as a Rough idea i'd grant the same +10/15/20% hp bonus stalwart get, but only work for two handed/TWF. Grant a temporary super damage shield that depends on your doing damage to the boss to work (DPS-Tank, no shield block and intim like a stalwart can). Grant similar active abilitys as bewildering blow, grant big bonuses to saves vs magic, and additional chances to re-roll against spell effects if you roll a 1.

Anyways sounds exciting.. Let's make melee less of a joke vs casters with this enhancement overhaul.

Tho lets make the arcane caster ones fun too, atm Savant and Archmage are petty boring imo, while Palemaster is insanely powerful.. needs to be balanced out a bit.

[danlan]

Two questions:

1. Will favored souls be able to take radiant servant pre?

2. Will wizards be able to take both palemaster and archmage pres?

Thanks for your response in advance!

[grodon9999]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)


Yes, you can take both of those to 3. (It would take most of your action points to do so.)


When I stop drooling I might be able to compose a coherent reply, but this is all UBBER and I friggin LOVE it.

[BossOfEarth]

Please oh please consider something else for warforged. Having them copy the rightful dwarven line just doesn't seem right. The main other consideration...

Greatswords

Seriously, think of all the warforged clerics/favored souls/paladins out there who by following the one true path of the Lord of Blades will never touch a shield. I'm not sure what other path would be appropriate, but please make it one of them that works well with greatswords.
Quoted For Truth

[Carpone]

Paladins: I always thought it was lame that paladins had to pay 2 AP for the "Follower of <deity>" when divine casters got it for free.

Wizard/Sorcerer/FvS/Cleric: The Spell Penetration enhancements are over costed. 4 AP for the second and 6 AP for the third tier and it only provides +1 spell penetration? Ludicrous! It should be 2 AP per tier with three tiers purchasable.

[Taimasan]

A Horc monk with improved crit range?? /drool

[Calebro]

When I stop drooling I might be able to compose a coherent reply, but this is all UBBER and I friggin LOVE it.

Agreed.
Here's to the Dwarven Ranger 12 / Paladin 7 / Monk 1 (Defender 3 / Tempest 2 / KotC 1) that we've been dreaming about! :D

[Shade]

A Horc monk with improved crit range?? /drool

heh.. If they just give ravager bbn critical rage..
Well no, it wont be possible.

You see crit rage, as the name imply only works while raged.

Monks have a hard time raging, being lawful and all.

I guess you could for 30 seconds tho, with the past life rage clicker =)

Perhaps they could enhance that so we can all play a uber barbarian dragonmonk that we all dreamed of.. heh.

[EatSmart]

We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.

If you do go down this line, is there any chance you could consider adding the option to invest further APs into the dragonmark to unlock a Spell-Like Ability version of one of the marks? Possibly some inspiration could be drawn from how the archmagi slas are costed. Big neon lights are flashing in my head about how OP some of them could potentially be (eg Heal SLA on a house j sorc) but I'm sure there are balanced solutions to the idea.

Ditto some of the active past life spells would be more fun if they unlocked the ability to buy their functionality as a SLA with some AP investment.

[Don1966]

Paladins: I always thought it was lame that paladins had to pay 2 AP for the "Follower of <deity>" when divine casters got it for free.

Wizard/Sorcerer/FvS/Cleric: The Spell Penetration enhancements are over costed. 4 AP for the second and 6 AP for the third tier and it only provides +1 spell penetration? Ludicrous! It should be 2 AP per tier with three tiers purchasable.

clerics have to spend 2 AP as well.

[Phemt81]

Awesome. Are you going to expand the list of powers on offer for the marks, say giving Greater Teleport to Passage-marked Humans with a certain level?

Wrong example; there is a known bug (to players) about that dragonmark line.

[oradafu]

My thoughts about what I'm reading so far...

I'm glad to see the Enhancement UI will get looked at. I'm not sure if I'd go so far as redoing it completely. I think simple making sure the collapsed lists don't reset when something is selected and dividing the enhancements into "racial", "class", "skill", "prestige class", etc categories would be enough.

With regard to re-doing Enhancements at the same time (and it appears to be adding/finishing Prestige classes), I'm a bit worried that it is too much at one time. It needs to be done, but I'm fearful that there's a chance of too many things breaking at once.

With that said, I'm glad to see that Enhancements are being looked at. It appears that the focus is mostly on Melee enhancements (which need it since Caster enhancements for the most part got a makeover in Update 9). I hope that racial enhancements get more than a glance though. Others have pointed to the Halfling Guile and Cunning line, which needs help, but I'd like to point out the Halfling Thrown Weapon line. I'm hoping that maybe Halflings could get a passive speed attack with thrown weapons. Unlike other other racial weapon bonuses, the Thrown weapon is a situational weapon (usually) yet Halflings (at least to me) appear to throw at the same rate as anyone else.

I'm glad there's interest in looking at Dragonmarks. Please make the Least Dragonmark the only feat necessary, while making the other tiers a AP cost. Even if it's a steep cost, since the Dragonmarks should be a bit rare. Also, I'm glad to hear that their might be a boost to Dragonmarks. One idea that I thought might be nice is to give the Dragonmark bear a passive +1 loot bonus on quests of the same house. For example, +1 loot will be given everytime Halflings with Dragonmarks do any House J quest, Elves with Dragonmarks do any House P quest, Humans with Making Dragonmarks do House C quests, etc.

A few thoughts about the Racial Prestige classes. First, I hope this isn't one of the things put into the equation to boost melee classes since all the Prestige classes except for Human seem to be melee based. Second, I agree with everyone else who said that WF needs something other than Defender, but I don't know what a good option would be. Third, I hope this doesn't spell the end of more "original" racial prestige classes like WF Juggernaut, Dwarf Defender or Luckstealer... (Yes, I know Luckstealer was never in the cards but I always had hope that it had a chance to appear).

[Havok.cry]

I will be unable to play DDO for a while as all my characters are currently shadow-humping various devs. If you see any of the following please send them back to my character select screen:

soon to be warforged defender palemaster archmage
soon to be dwarven defender earth monk
soon to be helf arcane archer deepwood sniper (something else)
soon to be human water air (something else) savant (could a human savant add acid to this mess?)
soon to be halfling spellsinging assassin bard
soon to be drow tempest assassin
soon to be human solar pheonix radiant servant
soon to be drow tempest ninja spy
soon to be dwarven defender exploiter build

There are more but they are still in the early formative levels so I just put them down and will craft them into something new at the right time.

[red_cardinal]

Stances are one way to preserve some of the stacking issues we didn't have to worry about before.


I hope you come up with a stance to change Manyshot - can fire multiple arrows, but at the cost of -2/-3/-4 to hit.

Also, firing speed of bows would be appreciated. My guess is that you can't change "1d8 - 20/x3" for normal longbows, but usage of longbows by a non-AA should do damage.

Also, firing distance shouldn't be infinite (how far the eye can see [client setup]).



Some of the tree enhancements will have feat prereqs, (i.e. can't get Improved Power Attack without Power Attack...) but we're trying to keep the specific requirements of enhancements as simple to understand as possible.


I hope you add Improved stunning blow and revise old feats. I mean, this would be an important update.

Shoot on the run doesn't work when character is running around with a bow. There's still -4 to hit there.
Slicing blow should scale with BAB and work with slashing weapons only. (it kinda sounds best)
Mobile spellcasting should be a viable feat for a caster.
...

I know these are details, but they're important IMHO, since this wasn't being looked at for 3+ years.

[red_cardinal]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)


Human: Pick one. - hmm, don't think their adaptability should be so extended. But, they're humans and they mate with anyone, so... I guess it's doable. :)

Warforged: Juggernaught (?)
Drow: Scorpion wraith (?) instead of tempest.



It will depend on the enhancement. Something like "Stealthy" (replacing Improved Hide and Improved Move Silently) will be +1 per rank. Certain special attacks and other bonuses are likely to be more frontloaded.


When in sneak mode, add ability to use objects without breaking stealth (some roll check on nearby mobs). This might give sneaking through quests some more appeal.

Also, when Sniper shot is executed - mobs rush to location where action took place from, but they follow you endlessly even though your stealthed. They never stop. They should stop at some point in space and time. I tried this in Kobolds new ringleader and in Searing heights.

[Kmnh]

Please, keep the action points system. Trees would eat up customizing possibilities. I see that it makes it easier for a newbie to make a cookie cutter build, but if I wanted to play a wow/diablo clone I would be playing sw:tor instead.

[red_cardinal]

Bloodstone as one of the most valuable trinkets in the game for so many years.


Yes, but if Power critical feat would grant +4 to confirm critical and +4 to critical damage, I don't think it would be so valuable - unless it would stack. :)

[Havok.cry]

Please oh please consider something else for warforged. Having them copy the rightful dwarven line just doesn't seem right. The main other consideration...

Greatswords

Seriously, think of all the warforged clerics/favored souls/paladins out there who by following the one true path of the Lord of Blades will never touch a shield. I'm not sure what other path would be appropriate, but please make it one of them that works well with greatswords.

/signed

[red_cardinal]

Please, keep the action points system. Trees would eat up customizing possibilities. I see that it makes it easier for a newbie to make a cookie cutter build, but if I wanted to play a wow/diablo clone I would be playing sw:tor instead.

Technically, we have trees already, it's only how you show them on screen. :P
The way trees are now, they only require some more Bonsai techniques. :)

[zebidos]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)


Yes, you can take both of those to 3. (It would take most of your action points to do so.)


It will depend on the enhancement. Something like "Stealthy" (replacing Improved Hide and Improved Move Silently) will be +1 per rank. Certain special attacks and other bonuses are likely to be more frontloaded.


One of the stretch goals is to have additional acquirable abilities for the Dragonmarks. These may not make it in the initial release. (Improved Dragonmark of Healing -> Jorasco Jadehand)

Sounds awesome, can you take multiples though?

For e.g. I have a halfling barbarian with 2 rogue, IF this doesnt change would I be able to take the full frenzied berzerker line up to barbarian 18 AND Assasin?

If so sounds wonderful! This game needs a bit of a jolt from the usual only good melee is half orc or warforged silliness.

[oradafu]

Sounds awesome, can you take multiples though?

For e.g. I have a halfling barbarian with 2 rogue, IF this doesnt change would I be able to take the full frenzied berzerker line up to barbarian 18 AND Assasin?

If so sounds wonderful! This game needs a bit of a jolt from the usual only good melee is half orc or warforged silliness.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like if you have a Halfling Barbarian, you can drop the rogue levels and become a pure Barbarian and gain both FB III and Assassin III but with a heavy AP cost.

[pharky]

while many people remain convinced that all this is overpowered. i feel that eventually APs would be the more restricting factor when it comes to character building. so many overpowered builds, but they will probably have to sacrifice AP somewhere else which would be fair. at least thats what i think the devs intentions are.

[red_cardinal]

Two questions:

1. Will favored souls be able to take radiant servant pre?

I hope not. If radiant servant is racial prestige, then humans may take it.
I think that the rule will stay the same: racial + class prestige stack if different.



2. Will wizards be able to take both palemaster and archmage pres?
Thanks for your response in advance!

I hope not, it makes no sense.

[red_cardinal]

while many people remain convinced that all this is overpowered. i feel that eventually APs would be the more restricting factor when it comes to character building. so many overpowered builds, but they will probably have to sacrifice AP somewhere else which would be fair. at least thats what i think the devs intentions are.

Don't worry. Melf's SLA for sorcerers was OP in U9 release on Lammania and it was nerfed before it hit live.
I think same will happen here. This will be tested out, surely, since it's important update.

[red_cardinal]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like if you have a Halfling Barbarian, you can drop the rogue levels and become a pure Barbarian and gain both FB III and Assassin III but with a heavy AP cost.

And you could assassinate an orthon with a Greatclub of the scrag. :D

That aside, feat prerequisites matter much too to get the both Prestiges in the line.

[red_cardinal]

I have to disagree. As long as all races have a great racial PrE, overpowered doesn't apply (it's a relative term).


I agree. Also, feats will surely be needed to get some prestiges. You might think that Dwarf ranger AA SD could happen, but you're wrong. :) I doubt you could fit it all in considering feats. Since this is still only in clouds, they will watch how some things fit. After all, this is now their main focus.

[Auran82]

heh.. If they just give ravager bbn critical rage..
Well no, it wont be possible.

You see crit rage, as the name imply only works while raged.

Monks have a hard time raging, being lawful and all.

I guess you could for 30 seconds tho, with the past life rage clicker =)

Perhaps they could enhance that so we can all play a uber barbarian dragonmonk that we all dreamed of.. heh.

Proper Barb rage cancels monk stances which would also be a hindrance.

They fixed that bug though, can't multi barb and monk anymore.

[quijenoth]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)

While these changes look amazing one concern I do have is with warforged choice as so many have mentioned but only 1 person has picked up on...

A Self-Healing Warforged 20 Wizard Pale Master with Stalwart defender boosts would be ungodly powerful! likely looking at almost 800 hit points or more here and with masters touch plus any blue socketed epic heavy shield to 0% ASF a WF PM will require some serious beating to take down! let alone adding ring of the master artifice into the mix!

It appears you have ravager set ready for release as its commented on a few times but is there any others that you are considering releasing (soon) that would better fit a human? I get the idea you want humans to stay the ultimate flexable class but with the half-elf sharing both human and elf they are trumping humans every time you improve humans.

My suggestion would be to allow humans to choose any without increasing costs, let the players imaginations run wild here! Even if it does sound crazy having a human rogue radiant servant.
Allow Half-elf to choose AA and any pre connected to their dilitante. This would add some value to certain under-used dilitantes instead of all the rogue/barb dils you see atm. I quite like the sound of a half-elf paladin with Hunter of the Dead, and Radiant Servant from his Cleric Dil.

Other concerns:
People have mentioned sticking to eberron lore and if I recall half-orcs are essentially druids primarily, the fact you have chosen a barbarian prestige doesnt fit within eberron lore even though the race has alot of synergy with the class, same applys for halfling, perhaps ravager would fit them better?
Warforge "Juggernaut" and perhaps even Warforge "Reforged" definately need to be in place BEFORE you consider a racial Pre for them.

[sephiroth1084]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender / Warpriest
Warforged: Stalwart Defender / Ravager?
Halfling: Assassin / Acrobat or Virtuoso?
Half-Orc: Ravager / ?
Elf: Arcane Archer / Archmage
Drow: Tempest / Assassin
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)


Also, I think that, if not immediately, eventually we should get at least 2 options per race.

[Shade]

- Lamannia has already been trending towards earlier builds - ugliness and all; effectively it's becoming a test server, not a preview server. If everything goes as planned you get a chance to play & comment before it's too late to change.


Great news.

I think Lamannia should be available 24/7 as the official, and only test server. Even if there is no new patch yet ready, you should put it up with the live game version. It's useful to players to test things regardless.

[Vormaerin]

Why does everyone act like racial PrEs are going to suddenly make everyone superpowerful?

How many APs do you typically have laying around doing nothing useful? Every AP and feat that a warforged caster spends on Warforged Defender (for example) is one less AP spend on spell casting enhancements.

If, as Eladrin says, getting two PrEs to tier III will cost all your APs, consider what that means. If the Kensai and Stalwart lines are combined, then where is the Haste Boost, Toughness Enhancements, Fighter Tactics, etc going to come from? You've spent all your APs on those PrE trees..

Or the guy who wants to be a Dwarf Paladin.... how you are going to be in Stalwart Stance and DoS stance at the same time?

Personally, I find all this very exciting. More options are always good and a simpler UI for enhancements is long over due.

[Failedlegend]

Warforged: Stalwart Defender

I agree with the others SD does not jive with WF for now I'd say Kensai, Frenzy Barb but future ideas would be Occult Slayer or Juggernaut





Elf: Arcane Archer

I think I good addition for elf would be Eldritch Knight

[Emili]

Lmao...

Just remember this ... It is typical for the players to micro manage and approach things with a perspective yielding the "best of breed." Escentially comming up with a flavour of the day which rules them all.

[Bolo_Grubb]

I am hoping these changes are a good thing, but worried that they are too big of a change. Turning the game into a completely different game.

As it sounds right now I going to look for lesser hearts on sale because it sounds like I may need to do an LR on any and all my toons once these changes go into effect.

[Scraap]

Elite and Epic alike are built around the exceptionally high stats possible (not the average) ... you do know this?



Intimately, and that particular thought process is quite the opposite of piling stacking on stacking on stacking till the numbers no longer matter much till they are sky high.

Take


Are you speaking of things like rogue dex stacking with ranger dex plus class dex stats?


Under that particular proposal, it'd be 6 for a rogue 20, 6 for a ranger 20, or 3 from each if an x/y split (pick your poison where you'd mix) or 6 from an item. Meaning you could drop the item and put something else in it's place until you snagged something epic. Maybe not even then if you count racial in as well.



It also means that instead of the 30 or 40 resists you normally see running around ... some people will be out there running with 70 to 80... requiring an increase in Mob damages to meet the the exceptions...


Same rule of thumb there. Inherently walking around at 11 or 12 ish with the equivalent of a greater fire resistance item, or or using a gear slot for it. Different methodologies to hit benchmarks. not moving them (possibly lowering them in fact). Note this would also bring up the relative worth of the two defender PREs, as that would free up not one but 2 slots when in stance, leaving folks more to play with gear-wise.

[grodon9999]

I agree with the others SD does not jive with WF for now I'd say Kensai, Frenzy Barb but future ideas would be Occult Slayer or Juggernaut


The Feat and AP costs might not make the 800+ HP WF archmage/Stalwart a reality . . . but I gotta say I think WF having Kensai as the option is kinda cool and works for machines build for war.

[Emili]

If, as Eladrin says, getting two PrEs to tier III will cost all your APs, consider what that means. If the Kensai and Stalwart lines are combined, then where is the Haste Boost, Toughness Enhancements, Fighter Tactics, etc going to come from? You've spent all your APs on those PrE trees..

If he tells that you may take two PrE to full under the new system that also means they've cheapened them... As it stands at the moment most Kensei - imo - do not take tactics because it is built in the PrE and they have few AP left after taking the PrE.

Thus they take STR (which itself enhances tactic and DPS) and Haste Boost plus some racials... A very good example is my Human fighter had to Drop down to 10% healing amp to garner more levels in HV after the value of that went up... That's how tight some PrE's currently are...

[Razcar]

The Assassin poisons, for instance, will be selectable enhancements in the Assassin tree and will work fairly differently than they do now.
Thank you.

In general I hope that this Enhancement revision can even out many of the class imbalances we have now and make less played classes more popular. From your and Madfloyd's post so far I'm optimistic - you seem IMO to have focused on what's wrong with the current system, and your bullet points for what a system like this is supposed to do I fully agree with (especially allow DEEP character building). I hope that many new fun builds will come from this - character building has been a bit stale lately.


Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.
PrE Capstones? Sweet.

[Emili]

Intimately, and that particular thought process is quite the opposite of piling stacking on stacking on stacking till the numbers no longer matter much till they are sky high.

Take

Under that particular proposal, it'd be 6 for a rogue 20, 6 for a ranger 20, or 3 from each if an x/y split (pick your poison where you'd mix) or 6 from an item. Meaning you could drop the item and put something else in it's place until you snagged something epic. Maybe not even then if you count racial in as well.

Same rule of thumb there. Inherently walking around at 11 or 12 ish with the equivalent of a greater fire resistance item, or or using a gear slot for it. Different methodologies to hit benchmarks. not moving them (possibly lowering them in fact). Note this would also bring up the relative worth of the two defender PREs, as that would free up not one but 2 slots when in stance, leaving folks more to play with gear-wise.


That is not how the Dev's design the game's quest... they do not hover on the lowball parks, nor even the average ballparks... and when you walk in an elite or epic quest they are built very close to the highest benchmarks attainable - you're expected to have things nearly max'd. A good example are today's base damage reflex damage DC's and trap save DC's ... unattainable without level appropriate equipment PLUS keeping the stats high enough... The suggestion above increases required saves on elite at level by +1,5 on the average.... the high point range being +3, therefore all epic and elite will bound to 1,5 to 2 higher. Care to do so with STR, CON and casting DCs? They design Elites and Epic benchmarks at close to the highest points you possibly may get.

What I am saying is I can't see them keeping the "benchmark" required the same while allowing a "higher" point attainable by a character.

[Scraap]

That is not how the Dev's design that game's quest... they do not hover on the lowball, nor even the average... when you walk in an elite or epic quest it is built around the highest benchmarks attainable - you're expected to have it nearly max'd.



And to my mind at least, that's precisely how we keep ending up with cookie cutter lookalikes every place you look. If the only augmentation they'll be doing is bigger numbers on the screen, they can keep it, and save themselves the effort, since there won't be a thing that would actually change in the end.

[dragons1ayer74]

...

Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.

Folded in critical rage is great but not as a capstone, please really take a close look and be very careful with what you do with Critical Rage.

Out of my many barbarians I have 3 that still have critical rage only one of these is a pure 20 barbarian and he would be the least affected if critical rage is changed or removed. The other two characters are unique and both built around the critical rage 2 enhancement and both have exactly 14 levels barbarian and 6 levels of other classes.

I was one of the people that said right from the start that grand fathering this ability right from the start was not a good idea and that critical rage barbarian ultimately should have been a different prestige class.

Lastly I also don’t believe that any rework of a system needs to force players to reset the enhancements, it should heavily encourage it also.
...(think augmentation here, not nerfs)... Anything taking something away that we can no longer have access to that we previously did is a nerf.

[grodon9999]

while many people remain convinced that all this is overpowered. i feel that eventually APs would be the more restricting factor when it comes to character building. so many overpowered builds, but they will probably have to sacrifice AP somewhere else which would be fair. at least thats what i think the devs intentions are.

Compared to how casters are any melee could have two full PREs with all the trimming and not be over-powered (okay, maybe kensai III and FB III might be a bit much).

[grodon9999]

So is this slated for U13 or something further in the future?

[Calebro]

Out of my many barbarians I have 3 that still have critical rage
<snip>
Anything taking something away that we can no longer have access to that we previously did is a nerf.

You're not serious, are you?
You've had three characters that haven't TRd or LRd or reset enhancements in.... what?.... two and a half years? You never retrained them because those AP were so powerful. That's the only reason. Frankly, I'm surprised that it's taken them this long to auto-reset enhancements. When wizards had their elemental lines reset I just assumed barbarians were coming along right behind.

You've had them for two and a half years longer than was intended. You've enjoyed the ride. It's time to let go.

[BOgre]

Good Plan, Turbine. Thank you.

Something like WoW's talent tree UI would be nice. Yes yes, WoW ultra boring **** fest, just talking about the UI folks!
http://www.incgamers.com/images/screenshots/18489orig.jpg

It lends itself very well to PrEs, and makes planning much easier, and more visual. Could we get a screenie of what you're thinking about doing? That might help us with feedback.

As for resetting people's enhancements, please make a splash screen notice explaining that this is happening (when it's closer to going live, obviously).

Can't wait to see the completed PrEs!!!

[macubrae]

Compared to how casters are any melee could have two full PREs with all the trimming and not be over-powered (okay, maybe kensai III and FB III might be a bit much).

I'm sure Shade will have this one figured out and capped before the sun sets the day of release.

[dragons1ayer74]

You're not serious, are you?
You've had three characters that haven't TRd or LRd or reset enhancements in.... what?.... two and a half years? You never retrained them because those AP were so powerful. That's the only reason. Frankly, I'm surprised that it's taken them this long to auto-reset enhancements. When wizards had their elemental lines reset I just assumed barbarians were coming along right behind.

You've had them for two and a half years longer than was intended. You've enjoyed the ride. It's time to let go.

The reason is because two of the characters were built around that enhancement line, if you read my post. One of the characters hasn't even capped yet but still gets played from time to time and is fun.

Overpowered compared to what exactly? Comparing strictly to barbarians a frenzied berserker does more raw DPS than my critical rage barbarians. Comparing them to FVS or Pale-Masters lol. Over the past while melee has been slightly nerfed wile magic has been nicely buffed. My pale master and many of my FVS can do things my critical rage barbarian (or any other melee) can only dream of doing.

[justagame]

An interface overhaul is fine, but, not knowing enough about it, I worry about one aspect of a tree approach. I think the ability to make custom builds is a major strength of DDO. We can make effective characters that don't fall always neatly into one of the "trinity" slots. If these changes end up having the effect that, in order to have 'acceptable' ability in one area, you have to effectively close off others, and pushes character design into more specialized roles as a result, I think it would truly be detrimental to the game.

[Calebro]

Overpowered compared to what exactly?

I didn't say it was OP, I said you never retrained them because those AP were so powerful.
So powerful =/= Overpowered.
(but with that said, there was a reason that they removed those AP to begin with....)

[BOgre]

An interface overhaul is fine, but, not knowing enough about it, I worry about one aspect of a tree approach. I think the ability to make custom builds is a major strength of DDO. We can make effective characters that don't fall always neatly into one of the "trinity" slots. If these changes end up having the effect that, in order to have 'acceptable' ability in one area, you have to effectively close off others, and pushes character design into more specialized roles as a result, I think it would truly be detrimental to the game.

Yes, I meant to talk about that but got distracted. Please beware of 'dumbing' down and limiting us. The trinity approach a la WoW Talent tree shouldn't be limiting, but freeing, right? Making it easier to see prereqs and such, but not cutting off our choices?

[Emili]

And to my mind at least, that's precisely how we keep ending up with cookie cutter lookalikes every place you look. If the only augmentation they'll be doing is bigger numbers on the screen, they can keep it, and save themselves the effort, since there won't be a thing that would actually change in the end.
This is what is wrong with the system to begin with... every maximum possible stat affects every benchmark... and the very reason WHY they disallowed stacking class stats to begin with. Asking for +6 stats means every fighter out there will be toting 3 more str every barb 3 more con every ranger 3 and rogue 3 more dex and ever wiz and arty 3 more int, sorc and spell singer 3 more cha, etc... Is all... It's the reason fighters and barbs are nothing but a pile of HP and why chanters have no hope in landing CC spells which have saves, and why evasion in epics only works if you build in great reflex saves - which includes not dumping dex too much. Thus all I am saying is such thing only moves up the benchmarks. You have fighters with higher str and Barbs with much higher HP, Wizards with Higher DC'd, Rangers with higher Reflex saves ... so come the quests in elite settings that is what the devs expect them to have, that is all.

This is the reason you do not see many rangers for instance going for tactical featings ... they're quite pressed to even think about reaching the benchmarks... You do not see people ending up meaningful end-game evasion on a barb attaining the required reflex save nearly impossible...

The reasons why is the numbers are already skewed and they much account for the range rogue or monk with the 45+ reflex, the pally with the 45+ fort the FvS with the 45+ will... and why certain splashes with cross synergies work out better than the pures and why other splashes are a total waste due lack of synergies enhancing to reach the current benchmarks. The micro managed scope of player builds will always yield a best of breed... "cookie cutter".

The devs must account that some fella is going to figure out what the benchmarks are and code to give THEM a challenge.

[Cyr]

My comments so far...


The current UI is indeed bad
The current enhancement system is tiered. You are describing the new one as a tree. That indicates lockout potential (due to cost requirements) and lots of stuff that you probably don't care about to get the good stuff at the end of the rainbow. Sounds interesting and alot more like how other games do this sort of thing.
Madfloyd was right. The enhancement system was not broken. It was actually one of the least offensive areas of the current game. It is disturbing that alot of work is being put into yet another new system and it looks like another major gamechanger when we have so many others which basically made the game worse.
Removing crit rage from builds which had it is a nerf. Nerfs are bad and I am hardly going to buy a party line that states that crit rage is OP when we have casters in their current state. Oh yeah, and it right off the bat nullifies the whole not take away statement because it is just plain not accurate.
Balancing the game through the enhancement system rework (which it sounds like you think you can do) is incredibly dangerous. You broke the game with the spell pass stuff and the epic nerf stuff...why is the fix in another system?
Don't make an effort to release all the PrE's with this...just get it done. It is far past the point of acceptable and it is certainly the most mentioned thing when the enhancement system is mentioned....not a giant rework of the whole thing.
SD for warforged...LOL! So the idea is to make warforged casters have 20% more hit points. Yeah, that seems like a great first step towards making classes balanced:rolleyes:
We are still looking at one racial PrE for race? That seems bad, because a races power will very much be dependant upon it's PrE. Dwarves are going to be awesome with stalwart for all sorts of builds...but poor elves are going to have gimped archer builds as always. That is kind of depressing.
How the heck is this going to work if two full PrE lines cost almost all your AP? Sounds like a huge tree with lots of junk you don't want to me to get the good stuff.
Mostly I see the potential for a huge disaster here.
Everything is an augmentation here??? Really, if that is true then you guys better start investing dev time in decreasing the levels of dungeons...for goodness sake DO NOT REDESIGN CONTENT FOR CHANGING CHARACTER POWER just lower the dang level on the dungeon and be done with it.
We need real numbers here and real tree examples to start giving more feedback.

[grodon9999]

I'm sure Shade will have this one figured out and capped before the sun sets the day of release.

To be honest it would have to be human which would not beat a Horc and I cannot fathom it having the APs for it even to be possible.

[Cyr]

Stances are one way to preserve some of the stacking issues we didn't have to worry about before.


I really hope this does not mean that you are going to add stances to a whole bunch of things...like Kensai.

[Cyr]

We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.


Dragonmarks are really bad in the game right now. Improving them during this process seems like a logical and good thing. Stop debating and make it so. You are not going to make the game broken by having some gimped chest blessers be able to get their power for cheaper.

[grodon9999]

I really hope this does not mean that you are going to add stances to a whole bunch of things...like Kensai.

Who wouldn't want power-surge to be a stance?

[Cyr]

Who wouldn't want power-surge to be a stance?

I am more concerned about what these stances will then lock out...all I know is that stances being used to lock out other things could mean lots of unitended consequences or poorly considered intented consequences.

[grodon9999]

I am more concerned about what these stances will then lock out...all I know is that stances being used to lock out other things could mean lots of unitended consequences or poorly considered intented consequences.

The devil is in the details, we need more of that spilled to us.

[dkyle]

Who wouldn't want power-surge to be a stance?

I'm already dreaming of SDIII + KensaiII + NinjaI on my WF Fighter/Monk. While stacking SDIII and Power Surge together would be awesome, I'm OK with them being mutually-exclusive stances. The lack of stamina from running out of Power Surges was a big part of why I respecced him to SD, so making it a Stance would be nice. And more consistent with what I expect from a Fighter: a highly reliable Melee. The Barbarian should be the one with the crazy short-term abilities.

[Natashaelle]

I must say, I REALLY like the sound of all this !!!

Can you please provide some details about capstones in the current thinking ? Are they liable to stay pretty much the same (ie level requirement = 20 levels in one single class), or do you plan revising them a little (speaking as someone with a powerful allergy towards playing single-class characters :p)

[grodon9999]

I'm already dreaming of SDIII + KensaiII + NinjaI on my WF Fighter/Monk. While stacking SDIII and Power Surge together would be awesome, I'm OK with them being mutually-exclusive stances. The lack of stamina from running out of Power Surges was a big part of why I respecced him to SD, so making it a Stance would be nice. And more consistent with what I expect from a Fighter: a highly reliable Melee. The Barbarian should be the one with the crazy short-term abilities.

You will not have the APs to make that work.

My guess (unless I missed it being said otherwise) is it''ll be like how arcane archer locks out tempest, your can't have two class PREs, etc . . . that would prevent that from happening. Still nothing stopping you from restting ENH and bouncing between.

I'm wondering if this goes through is would I still be able to afford the APs for either Kensai or SD and an 18/1/1 human ranger. That in and of itself would "fix" melee rangers if possible.

[grodon9999]

I must say, I REALLY like the sound of all this !!!

Can you please provide some details about capstones in the current thinking ? Are they liable to stay pretty much the same (ie level requirement = 20 levels in one single class), or do you plan revising them a little (speaking as someone with a powerful allergy towards playing single-class characters :p)

Yes, please. As much details as the legal department will let you.

[Tiamas]

After reading the devs comments a few thoughts came to my mind.

This feels like mixing up two ways of implementing the PrEs. In old school DnD they we’re called PrCs, Prestige Classes, because they took up a class spot and there weren’t too many class/race specific restrictions. That’s fine. DDO came up with the PrEs, which more or less allowed you to further specialize in your class, which leads to a class restriction but you didn’t have to “waste” a class spot. Which is fine too.

The new idea sounds like a mix of this:
You can get any PrE with any class, but only on certain races.

Until now each race had some nice little things others didn’t have, but you could play any build on any race without major problems (warforged tank builds excluded). Some had higher DCs on spells, some a little bit more damage, others got nice heal amp but in the end each build was viable.

With the new idea some builds will only be possible on certain races, i.e. Kensai-Assassin, possible on Halfling and human. This means we are restricted in our visual appearance (only those two races) to get this build. Right now this is only true for arcane archers + X builds on an elf. But with that new implementation that’s true for many builds. And I really dislike the idea of connecting visual appearance with builds. Feels like one of those really cheap MMOs with orc = melee, elf = arcane, human = divine and each one got its skill tree.

We all know that there might be builds which are superior to others, like Kensai-Assassin in dealing damage perhaps. This build will be most effective on Halflings because humans or helves have to pay more AP to get it. So, seriously: I like min-maxing, but playing only Halflings for best dps s****. And even if I would not care about min-maxing, if I wanted to play this build as an elf I would not be able to. And I imagine a lot of people are playing a certain race simply because they like their appearance/background/history/flavour/etc. That way you are introducing a completely unnecessary restriction in my opinion.

Important: This build is just an example, no one knows which builds will be superior on a certain race to other races, but this combination is likely to be and it is a good example to get an idea of my thoughts *g*.


To summarize this up:
Do not force us to use a certain appearance (race) to play a certain build.


Suggestions:

1. Keep the current way of further specialization. I like it, just finish all PrEs.

- or -

2. Make all PrEs available for all races/classes but create prerequisites that favour certain classes, i.e. Stalwart Defender needs tower shield proficiency, this would favour fighters because they get this feat for free, but it does not exclude any race and not even classes.

[Barazon]

Here's a suggestion that would allow the people who have legacy enhancements to keep them, and provide additional functionality for the future. Before anyone slams me for being interested only in myself: I have no toons in this situation, but I do know several people who do.

Before this update, create an NPC who, if you have the Critical Rage enhancement line, will give you a Token of Feat: Legacy Critical Rage. After the update, this same NPC will accept that token and give the player the feat Legacy Critical Rage. Under the new scheme, the Critical Rage enhancement would have Requires feat: Legacy Critical Rage (and anything else originally required, such as level 12 Barbarian, etc). This puts only a small onus on the players: visiting this NPC both before and after the proposed update, but lets them keep what they have earned.

Not only does this solve the problem of not screwing over the customers who have been subscribers for years, and held onto their enhancement line, but would allow for future expansion. For one thing, any time someone with the Critical Rage feat wanted to LR or TR, they could go get the token beforehand, and redeem it afterward. You could add a warning to the reincarnation NPC that they have an enhancement line they will lose if they don't go get a token first.

Other functionality: suppose for example, someone opened up that Epic Lord of Blades chest and saw:

Token of Feat: Evasive

This tokens shows that the bearer has been successfully evading damage for a long time, and will allow you to use one of your normal feat choices to purchase the Evasion feat.

Not that the developers would want to let people just purchase Evasion for any toon, but you get the idea. It would allow for non-loot rewards that are incredibly cool.

[Valindria]

This is not something that is important to me. The current system works. I would prefer the Bard bugs are fixed and the Bard PrE's are finished. If this change can somehow do something along those lines then I am for it. Otherwise I feel resources could be allocated to things that are more important.

[dkyle]

Before this update, create an NPC who, if you have the Critical Rage enhancement line, will give you a Token of Feat: Legacy Critical Rage. After the update, this same NPC will accept that token and give the player the feat Legacy Critical Rage. Under the new scheme, the Critical Rage enhancement would have Requires feat: Legacy Critical Rage (and anything else originally required, such as level 12 Barbarian, etc). This puts only a small onus on the players: visiting this NPC both before and after the proposed update, but lets them keep what they have earned.

That's awfully messy. I'd rather they just bring it back, than do this. It's not like Critical Rage is overpowered or anything. It's worse than Frenzied Berserker in almost all cases.

Better solution would be a Ravager line that gives the +2 crit range, plus other stuff.


Token of Feat: Evasive

This tokens shows that the bearer has been successfully evading damage for a long time, and will allow you to use one of your normal feat choices to purchase the Evasion feat.

I don't like this.

For one, loot designs that basically require an LR should be avoided. Such a blatant money grab should not be tolerated. It's bad enough that +3/+4 tomes often need one to be useful (especially DEX tomes on TWF).

Second, Evasion is way too powerful to be a normal feat, even as part of Epic Raid-loot.


Not that the developers would want to let people just purchase Evasion for any toon, but you get the idea. It would allow for non-loot rewards that are incredibly cool.

The token is still loot.

[voodoogroves]

The devil is in the details, we need more of that spilled to us.

And if that devil allows for more controlled balance and applicability, awesome.

Esp. if that means melee aren't as action-boost limited.

[zeonardo]

Please, just don't let we have overpowered PrEs combos to already powerful PrEs.
I don't want to see a Drow Archmage/Pale Master, a Half-Orc Frenzied Berserker/Tempest/Kensai and such.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

UI is cumbersome and could use a change.

Just don't F(ix) anything.

Unless there's a kiss somewhere. Getting F(ix)ed without a kiss is just bad business.....

[Xufang]

Wow! I'm extremely excited about this!. Big thanks for letting us know and get involved.

The only question I'd like to voice, and one I've noticed mentioned a couple of times, is whether this will be detrimental to those of us who prefer pure 20 levels of a single class and PrE? Will they appear weak beside the wave of "uber" builds which will inevitably come from this?

[Cyr]

- Your ideas/thoughts on which enhancements are currently of little value as well as suggestions for improvements or new enhancement lines are welcome and encouraged (although I should probably start a new thread for that so they aren't buried!)

- To repeat the goals: improve comprehension, re-balance AP costs, improve or jettison weak enhancements, improve weak classes, finish PrE's.


I will throw some suggestions out here with the hopes someone shifts it to the proper thread if one gets started later.

Weak enhancements...


The skill (listen/jump/....) lines. Rarely taken unless required for something else except for a rare few.
The non haste/damage boost short term clickie lines. Again rarely taken unless required for something else. The to hit, saves, AC, and DR ones are all relics of an older game.
Deepwood sniper. Weakest ranger PrE with a kind of goofy design idea to begin with.
The DC line for wands. Not exactly a powerhouse there.
Drow lines. Some are okay, but many are meh.
The fighter line which adds to your crit confirm chance.
Tree design suggestions


Remove anything that you know lots of players will groan about having to take. Those should not be requirements for the good stuff and should be made valuable by themselves or killed off.
Retain a feel of requirements that people who are purchasing the PrE are likely to want to purchase based upon them going for that PrE. Halfling assassin should have the halfling guile/cunning line wrapped up in it as they are thematically and more importantly game play related. Elven archer should have more straight out bow enhancing pre-reqs (also a good way to make elven arcane archers even worth considering compared to a helf).
Balance out the pre-reqs on the tree for each PrE in a manner that actually reflects the usefulness of the PrE tier being purchased. For example, kensai and ninja spy's first tiers are weaker then their later tiers and should require less overhead.
Some PrE's are weaker then others. Make the requirements for these less then others in total AP and make sure there is something worthwhile to put those extra points towards...like a tier or two of another class PrE that is better.
Suggestions to improve weak classes using this rework.


Cost melee and ranged lines low enough to allow for a full racial and two full class lines if you only puchase them and not some other fun stuff. Seriously, FB + Kensai + AA would not be OP compared to casters at this point...which is kind of crazy.
Add on optional improvements to PrE's that increase their usefulness particularly for melee and ranged toons. Some examples...

A line for SD that gave a high chance of guard type auto-attacks when shield blocking for example, a line with higher AC potential, and a line with higher bonus hit points.
A line for assasin that gave higher assassinate dc, a line that gave higher sneak attack damage, and a few lines which gave debuffs that worked on bosses.
A line for the anti-undead pali pre which gave higher healing amp, a line which gave higher damage versus undead, a line which extended the undead to stuff from the PrE's to other monsters, and a line which provided powerful debuffs to undead that worked on bosses.
A line for Kensai which provided faster cooldowns for special attacks (stun/trip/sunder/etc), a line which provides more damage for their favored weapon, a line which improves the crit range further on their weapon, a line which improves the crit profile on their chosen weapon...

Rangers and Paladins are not terribly in demand atm. They are kind of at the bottom of the heap when it comes to the current game so some improvements to them is in order.

Double up the paladin smite lines so they cost half as much as currently. Paladins really have a hard time AP wise and this would help.
Additionally ranger favored enemies should be purchasable (without the extra +'s from getting them through feats) through AP.
Add debuff lines which effect ranger favored enemies. Stuff like a fort debuff line, a to hit debuff line, and an AC debuff line. Make these work versus bosses.
Create a Favored Enemy specialist tree for rangers. This tree would have powerful PrE type effects at it's top...something like a vorpal type effect that works on all the rangers favored enemies (including stuff which vorpal does not normally work on like undead and constructs).
Cost Pali PrE pre-req trees lower then others because they are worse then others...except the defender.
Create an optional role for a paladin in the party as an actually useful party buffer within their aura. Basically another tree for paladins that improves stuff that a party is very likely to care about such as incoming %DR, healing amp, and extra good damage on a hit.

Bards are not horribly bad off, but they are not exactly at the top either so some suggestions involving them.

Cost Virtuoso low for the entire tree.
Give warchanters more compelling bonuses to their own personal dps potential.

[LeLoric]

Dev's when this hits lamannia please consider allowing more than 4 char transfers. There's a pretty compelling reason to get as many character types as possible over there both for you and for us.

[grodon9999]

Dev's when this hits lamannia please consider allowing more than 4 char transfers. There's a pretty compelling reason to get as many character types as possible over there both for you and for us.

What he said . .. and a hint at an ETA on this would be great. This is a huge and potentially wonderful change that deserves as much attention as we can muster.

[Cyr]

The devil is in the details, we need more of that spilled to us.

Agreed, but if this is to be a realistic you can actually purchase multiple class PrE's then having them actually stack is really important for design purposes.

Otherwise, it is relativly meaningless for pure fighters but uber awesomeness for figher/barb/halflings....or whatever combination actually does work.

I would hate to see at the end of the day some goofy concern over kensai and SD stacking and then have an tempest/FB/Ravager be possible with everything stacking.

[Aelonwy]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)


Personally I'd rather have Drow get AA, maybe because the only two drow I have are bards but a Spellsinger/AA would work out well. Bards are squishy, drow are squishy, a ranged attack plus bard buffs = nice combination. I'm just wondering if you went with Tempest because of all the pseudo-Drizzts running around? No offense to RA Salvatore fans.

[Chai]

As a long time DM and REF, I have always liked the dilema of giving players a huge number of options to choose from, and then watching them go back and forth as they gain the clear understanding that there is far too many cool things they could flesh out on one character than the game allows.

When this goes live, the number of AP people get is going to be far too small for the likes of those who will be drooling over all the available options.

[grodon9999]

Agreed, but if this is to be a realistic you can actually purchase multiple class PrE's then having them actually stack is really important for design purposes.

Otherwise, it is relativly meaningless for pure fighters but uber awesomeness for figher/barb/halflings....or whatever combination actually does work.

I would hate to see at the end of the day some goofy concern over kensai and SD stacking and then have an tempest/FB/Ravager be possible with everything stacking.

Not allowing class-based PREs to stack would work, like how AA locks out Tempest and vice-versa even on an elf. Even though Tempest and AA stacking wouldn't be nearly as powerful a melee kensai and AA as seen in the Helves Angel Builds.

AP costs would all but make this impossible even if this is allowed. I cannot see A Kesai III and a Stalwart III being possible on a toon unless the AP demands are drastically cut from what they are currently.

What gives me the huge eWood is thinking about slapping Stalwart III/Kensai III on my 18/1/1 human ranger.

[grodon9999]

As a long time DM and REF, I have always liked the dilema of giving players a huge number of options to choose from, and then watching them go back and forth as they gain the clear understanding that there is far too many cool things they could flesh out on one character than the game allows.

Agreed, more options is a good thing.


When this goes live, the number of AP people get is going to be far too small for the likes of those who will be drooling over all the available options.

Then this change is pointless. if we can't see noticeable improvements in our (especially melee) toons why bother? Would a melee having two full-blown PREs even put them close to what casters have to offer?

[Chai]

Personally I'd rather have Drow get AA, maybe because the only two drow I have are bards but a Spellsinger/AA would work out well. Bards are squishy, drow are squishy, a ranged attack plus bard buffs = nice combination. I'm just wondering if you went with Tempest because of all the pseudo-Drizzts running around? No offense to RA Salvatore fans.

In Eberron Drow are more tribal, and they do not emulate their Forgotten Realms cousins, which gels well with giving them a racial PRE that operates like a ranger.

I have a capped Drow dex / wis Monk - his attack rate will be redonkulous if drow PRE emulates tempest and it all stacks up.

[Vazok1]

Very much looking forward to trying out ninja spy assassin with the assassin prestige. that is defiantly my favourite

also could you look into allowing unlimited enhancement re-sets on Lamannia? I understand it may not be a simple thing but it would allow us to test a whole lot more and would allow us to have a lot more fun playing with all the new shiny things. win win situation :)

[danotmano1998]

I am excited about the new changes that are coming, but...
My largest concern here is simply bugs.

So, I love the idea of adding new choices into the mix of things, but please, please, please..

DON'T RELEASE THE CHANGES UNTIL THEY WORK CORRECTLY.
(Yes, preferably 100% of them.)
Tinker as long as you need. Test as long as it is necessary to work out the bugs.


Thanks Turbine!!

[Cyr]

Not allowing class-based PREs to stack would work, like how AA locks out Tempest and vice-versa even on an elf. Even though Tempest and AA stacking wouldn't be nearly as powerful a melee kensai and AA as seen in the Helves Angel Builds.


It could work, but it would have a large upfront cost of making certain existing builds strictly sub-optimal in effect de-facto nerfing them. Builds like fighter dwarves or barb horcs.

Does not seem ideal to me.

[voodoogroves]

In Eberron Drow are more tribal, and they do not emulate their Forgotten Realms cousins, which gels well with giving them a racial PRE that operates like a ranger.

I have a capped Drow dex / wis Monk - his attack rate will be redonkulous if drow PRE emulates tempest and it all stacks up.

That still doesn't sound too broken to me. I'm all for it.

[Chai]

Agreed, more options is a good thing.


Then this change is pointless. if we can't see noticeable improvements in our (especially melee) toons why bother? Would a melee having two full-blown PREs even put them close to what casters have to offer?

Likely we will see noticeable improvments, but the biggest improvement will be the sheer number of options. Of course I suspect the nerf bat to swing when the optimizers pick it all apart and create some powerful combinations that are just off the charts. Office pool?

Concerned about melee making up some of the ground between them and casters? Id be more concerned to see how much MORE power casters will gain.

Toaster lich defenders: Why roll anything else in '12? :p

Toaster melee FvS defender? They already tank and solo raids while doing so...

[noinfo]

Personally I'd rather have Drow get AA, maybe because the only two drow I have are bards but a Spellsinger/AA would work out well. Bards are squishy, drow are squishy, a ranged attack plus bard buffs = nice combination. I'm just wondering if you went with Tempest because of all the pseudo-Drizzts running around? No offense to RA Salvatore fans.

Drow have always been masters of 2 weapon fighting ever since they were introduce. They were pretty much the only race that could do it without penalties back then (1st edition) Tempest mimics that well. It is not a FR issue at all.

[Shade]

Unkillable god WF stalwart casters fix:

Stances are lost upon casting a spell.

Though be careful coding that, and ensure its SPELL ONLY, not clickies which cast spells.

[Cyr]

Thinking about tempest for drow.

Alot of the other classes get some incredibly compelling PrE's (not including elf /bleh).

Tempest though does not synergize well with drow right now. Drow are casters, pali's, or pali splashes most often now. Two of those three are just not going to have the free feats to purchase tempest and one would have zero interest in it.

I am trying to figure out a really compelling drow build using tempest but am drawing a blank. Tempest synergizes well with rangers because of the class feats for twf. So basically it is a fighter drow build that is left as far as I can come up with. Not exactly a stellar combination for a non-str based race, -con race, +mental stats race.

Meanwhile you can hop on your dwarven ranger get tempest and SD on a +con race or go horc ranger with tempest and ravager...

Considering drow are the bottom of the barrel right now for class except casters really this is a strange choice in my opinion. Easiest and best way to fix it...add more then one PrE for these weaker races and more restrictive build options.

Something like drow have tempest, PM, and Mechanic.

[Hafeal]

It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree.


Is this particularly true of skills? Rather than having each individual skill listed out have some kind of consolidation?

I could also see this useful for certain class choices to - Rangers come to mind with having a separate enhancement for each energy type (Swamp Lore, Fire Lore, etc).

It would be great if this is something you had in mind! :)

[justagame]

Unkillable god WF stalwart casters fix:

Stances are lost upon casting a spell.

Though be careful coding that, and ensure its SPELL ONLY, not clickies which cast spells.

Thus killing Paladins too.

[budalic]

Unkillable god WF stalwart casters fix:

Stances are lost upon casting a spell.

Though be careful coding that, and ensure its SPELL ONLY, not clickies which cast spells.

Idk, really; it's only 20% more hp and 6 dr for caster. Given that most wf casters taking advantage of shieldblock casting are using docent of defiance, dr probably doesn't mean much anyway. And given that there isn't any repair manipulation in game, it prolly wouldn't be broken.

On the other hand, if human/helf can pick, say Defender of Syberys on Favored Soul...

[rdasca]

Some interesting ideas, though I would be real careful on what combos would be allowed.

[grodon9999]

Unkillable god WF stalwart casters fix:

Stances are lost upon casting a spell.

Though be careful coding that, and ensure its SPELL ONLY, not clickies which cast spells.

heck with that! That screws my Ram's might! :)

But I agree with Shade, this potential god-combo of caster with a stalwart PRE shouldn't be feasible. it's gotta be something that you really would gimp your toon doing.

[bhgiant]

My largest concern here is simply bugs.

So, I love the idea of adding new choices into the mix of things, but please, please, please..

DON'T RELEASE THE CHANGES UNTIL THEY WORK CORRECTLY.
(Yes, preferably 100% of them.)
Tinker as long as you need. Test as long as it is necessary to work out the bugs.
Thanks Turbine!!
Agreed and 100% /signed. I don't care if you have to keep it on Lam for 6months and it doesn't come out until next Christmas. This is too huge to us screw up.

[CaptainSpacePony]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)


I REALLY don't like the idea of dwarf and WF having the same tree.

[grodon9999]

Toaster lich defenders: Why roll anything else in '12? :p

Toaster melee FvS defender? They already tank and solo raids while doing so...

Defender casters would be OP, and like I said above one would hope measures are put in place that would require you to borderline gimp a toon in this pursuit.

[bhgiant]

Thinking about tempest for drow.

Alot of the other classes get some incredibly compelling PrE's (not including elf /bleh).

Tempest though does not synergize well with drow right now.
I have a lvl 20 Drow Assassin. I wouldn't mind 100% off-hand proc and extra 5% of double strike that stacks with my Opportunist feat :D. The +2 to hit would be welcome as well.

[Cyr]

I have a lvl 20 Drow Assassin. I wouldn't mind 100% off-hand proc and extra 5% of double strike that stacks with my Opportunist feat :D. The +2 to hit would be welcome as well.

Yeah, that would be great if the requirement was not dodge, mobility, and spring attack.

Hence the synergy issues.

[voodoogroves]

Unkillable god WF stalwart casters fix:

Stances are lost upon casting a spell.

Though be careful coding that, and ensure its SPELL ONLY, not clickies which cast spells.

Not as a rule, though much of the coding may indicate that. Monk stances, for instance, do not.

I'd be less concerned about the WF, more concerned about the Dwarf PMs.


Some balance though w/ the non-spell-casting trigger would be good to eliminate (or reduce) those. Ie, you can snag the passive benefits (and they may be worth it) but you don't get the active stance unless you're, you know, in said stance.

[MaxwellEdison]

Defender casters would be OP, and like I said above one would hope measures are put in place that would require you to borderline gimp a toon in this pursuit.

Prerequisite costs should be enough to dissuade the build for most. Lose Metamagic feats for combat feats, spend AP on SD instead of elemental damage and you'll end up with a mediocre HP, low BAB tank with mediocre casting ability. Does not seem gamebreaking to me.

[Chai]

Defender casters would be OP, and like I said above one would hope measures are put in place that would require you to borderline gimp a toon in this pursuit.

Like what I referred to earlier. 80 AP and 200 AP worth of good stuff to spend it on - thus the dilema. :p

If the requirements for racial defender simply make it so a WF FvS would be spread far too thin trying to make an AoV + Defender that can DOT its way out of a paper bag, then theres your balance.

Otherwise Angel of Defense is going to rule this game. (they already tank raid bosses, without defender)

If they do this right, melee will gain ground on casters as far as balance is concerned.

[Eladrin]

I REALLY don't like the idea of dwarf and WF having the same tree.
They do have the same favored class, and the Warforged were originally built to act as "tanks" in the war.

[dunklezhan]

They do have the same favored class, and the Warforged were originally built to act as "tanks" in the war.
*coughwarforgedjuggernautcough*

:)

[voodoogroves]

Like what I referred to earlier. 80 AP and 200 AP worth of good stuff to spend it on - thus the dilema. :p

If the requirements for racial defender simply make it so a WF FvS would be spread far too thin trying to make an AoV + Defender that can DOT its way out of a paper bag, then theres your balance.

Otherwise Angel of Defense is going to rule this game. (they already tank raid bosses, without defender)

If they do this right, melee will gain ground on casters as far as balance is concerned.

Exactly. Kill them with kindness.

[Vargouille]

Please, keep the action points system. Trees would eat up customizing possibilities. I see that it makes it easier for a newbie to make a cookie cutter build

Customization of builds remains super important. Amongst other previously stated goals, we hope for this overall change to increase the number of viable build options, not reduce them.

Current thinking is to keep action points. Trees and action points can live together in harmony.

[BoBo2020]

The PrE's aren't entirely open to all classes at this time - the restriction of you can only have one PrE from one class is going away.



I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)





- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER.

MF

I really like where this is going - sounds like a massive improvement to both interface and customization.

With this in mind, I would like to throw out a long shot - multiclass PrEs.

Multiclassed characters sometimes get the short end of the stick and PrEs that require class combinations could be pretty exciting and fun without being overpowered.

For example:

Mystic theurge might require at least 2 spell casting classes.

A bladesinger might be restrcited to elves and half elves with a melee class and an arcane class.

A spell sword might require an arcane and melee combo.

Eldritch knight might require an arcane class and fighter/paladin.

Gladiator might require barbarian and another melee class.

Exotic Weapon Master might require human and either fighter or rogue and the monkey grip feat, etc...

[Cyr]

They do have the same favored class, and the Warforged were originally built to act as "tanks" in the war.

I would greatly prefer that warforged gain something uber for melee while not also uber for arcane casters if a primary goal of this pass really is to help out with balance as opposed to flavor being the driving factor.

I would prefer Kensai for warforged. It does almost nothing for arcanes, but is great for melee toons.

[BoBo2020]

Customization of builds remains super important. Amongst other previously stated goals, we hope for this overall change to increase the number of viable build options, not reduce them.

Current thinking is to keep action points. Trees and action points can live together in harmony.

You might consider increasing the number of action points from 4 per level to 5 per level.

[grodon9999]

I have a lvl 20 Drow Assassin. I wouldn't mind 100% off-hand proc and extra 5% of double strike that stacks with my Opportunist feat :D. The +2 to hit would be welcome as well.

You have enough feat room for Dodge, mobility, Spring Attack, and a Tempest III prereq?

keep dreaming :)

[Cyr]

You might consider increasing the number of action points from 4 per level to 5 per level.

I would like to second this general statement. Providing more AP per level at this time would be a good way to provide more granularity for enhancements...some really are not worth one point while others are more like 1.5 points now.

[bhgiant]

Yeah, that would be great if the requirement was not dodge, mobility, and spring attack.

Hence the synergy issues.
If you think about it, making those feats a requirement doesn't make sense, at least as a Drow class prestige. Ranger gets the TWF line for free so it's not a big deal. but on a Drow there's not enough feats to take the TWF feat line and the Tempest feat prereq's. I am thinking the feats (or some) would be waved at the expense of higher AP costs, but, we'll just have to wait and see.

I am hoping this quote...

Some of the tree enhancements will have feat prereqs, (i.e. can't get Improved Power Attack without Power Attack...) but we're trying to keep the specific requirements of enhancements as simple to understand as possible.
...will mean the feat requirements that DON'T make sense (tempest feats prerequs never really made sense to me) will go away. But that's just me crossing my fingers.

Edit: And a partial confirm :).

We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.

[MaxwellEdison]

@Eladrin

On the subject of PrE stacking. Is the current thinking to allow a Dwarven Paladin simultaneous use of DoS and SD, or are you planning on allowing only one defensive stance at a time?

[Vargouille]

Also, feats will surely be needed to get some prestiges. You might think that Dwarf ranger AA SD could happen, but you're wrong. :) I doubt you could fit it all in considering feats. Since this is still only in clouds, they will watch how some things fit. After all, this is now their main focus.

We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.

[Coldin]

Customization of builds remains super important. Amongst other previously stated goals, we hope for this overall change to increase the number of viable build options, not reduce them.

Current thinking is to keep action points. Trees and action points can live together in harmony.

Makes sense to me. Especially if the overall goal is to make most enhancements cost 1 or 2 point. Then each action point moves you up further up a tree.

[grodon9999]

They do have the same favored class, and the Warforged were originally built to act as "tanks" in the war.

But the healing penalties in the modern game have really killed their viability. When you're going through literally hundreds of hjeal-scrolls a raid having a WF stalwart is just not practical.

If you make the defensive aspects that WF and dorfs can bring to the table viable in ALL levels of play this might be viable, but as it is now it is not.

Make the AC and DR worth something in the hardest levels, even epic LOB, and you might be cooking with gas, as it is now the best options are some silly earth-stance builds with such broken levels of healing amplification it screams "nerf meh!"

[Rydlic]

I just want to pipe in and say one thing:
We are making assumptions on current state of PRE's. We do not know what Feat(s) will be required on the change pass, what action points are going to be needed per tier or how it will even look

I reserve making any assumptions until I can see a mock up of how it will try to look, even a rough sketch that has a huge diclaimer of "Not in anyway finished". Just to get an idea of how it will be in the future. I will not base this on current standings as I have seen things in the game changed way too many times to guess with so little info.

[voodoogroves]

You have enough feat room for Dodge, mobility, Spring Attack, and a Tempest III prereq?

keep dreaming :)

That kind of choice though - that's goodness. Splash 2 for feats, lose the capstone, etc.

TxF, ITxF, GTxF, Toughness, Improved Crit, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack

That's about the best you could do ... and you'd only get Tempst 2 and be missing PA.


Sounds fair.

[dkyle]

They do have the same favored class, and the Warforged were originally built to act as "tanks" in the war.

Yeah, I think it's OK. Dwarves and WF are pretty radically different as tanks, and serve different purposes. I'm not sure what would be a better fit. Most I could think of would be Frenzied Berserker, as a Juggernaut stand-in.

[Emili]

That still doesn't sound too broken to me. I'm all for it.

Drow: tempest/assassin = 20% extra SA on off hand = sick DPS. Madstoned and becomes THE king or Rogues.

18 Rogue/2 Monk feated: TxF, ITxF, GTxF, Toughness, Improved Crit, Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack ... (is a drow) TR twice as a monk prior? 16 17 14 12 10 10 (then add +2 and 3 tomes) all levels up in str and sub Past life monk for PA and stay with wraps. Can you say SUPER QUICK!

[Cyr]

I am hoping this quote...

...will mean the feat requirements that DON'T make sense (tempest feats prerequs never really made sense to me) will go away. But that's just me crossing my fingers.

Yes, we are working with a considerable lack of knowledge as to what this system is really envisioned to look like at this point so it is hard to give pointed feedback.

I agree if tempest had no feat pre-reqs (and was not costed very high AP wise for a drow) then it would be more interesting for rogue drow builds.

[twiliteslayer02]

Basically am holding my opinions, not sure at all if the skill treee thing is good for ddo.

essentially we need some idea of what its gonna look like, to couple with the info you've given so far, even a hand drawn mockup would go far into helping at least me figure out what impact this is going to make.

and having to respeckj all of my toons ( over 20) isnt a really encouraging thing to face. At least not without a better idea of exactly what you have in mind.

[Calebro]

I like what I'm seeing from a conceptual standpoint from every Dev post in this thread. But some of the concerns that have been noted are completely valid. We simply need more specific information before we can give any true feedback on the issue.
In concept this all sounds wonderful. In practice it may not be. As someone correctly stated, the devil is in the details.

Please keep us posted as to where you're heading on this so that we may more fully understand the possible changes and can offer suggestions and concerns where they may be appropriate.

[grodon9999]

That kind of choice though - that's goodness. Splash 2 for feats, lose the capstone, etc.

TxF, ITxF, GTxF, Toughness, Improved Crit, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack

That's about the best you could do ... and you'd only get Tempst 2 and be missing PA.


Sounds fair.

13/6/1 builds or 12/6/2 builds would be able to take to full Tier III tempest. There's just no way you could do it on a pure 20 rogue without gimping yourself.

[voodoogroves]

"Tank" isn't a D&D concept, neither is "Defender" in 3e.

Both have Fighter as their favored class.

Were they created as "tanks" or shock troops? How does that translate from flavor into D&D and DDO. Juggernaut stacks on immunities as well as less-restrained movement, charging/bull rush ... and ultimately the immunity to healing that makes them poor even in PNP.

[Victor_1]

We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.

Thanks for the heads up, some feat starved classes(pally/bards) would appreciate this change :)

I know its too early to ask draft of changed feat requirement list, but will be looking forward to see them as it available.

[voodoogroves]

13/6/1 builds or 12/6/2 builds would be able to take to full Tier III tempest. There's just no way you could do it on a pure 20 rogue without gimping yourself.

Yeah, and that's fine with me - because you lose the vorpal at Assassin 3.

[knightgf]

You know, I am absolutely worried about this update.

I feel like the game all of a sudden is gaining WAY too much power WAY too early. The ability to have more PrE's than before? More power at less cost? I feel that these things are the last thing the game needs at the moment; The game already is handling more than it was designed for with all of the lag and other technical issues we see in-game, not to mention the powercreeping issues as well. While it might be nice to tweak the enhancement system, as I am sure you know, if you mess up on this, the AP update could very well be the final nail in the coffin for this game.

I already stopped playing when the technical issues prevented me from playing the game properly, as well as the power creep overwhelming me. This game could be looking at filing a chapter 11 bankruptcy claim if you do this update wrong to the point it stirs up the fanbase; please, DO NOT work on this yet. I think it would be much better to fix the technical issues(And perhaps powercreeping issues) we have first than to implement this update and risk the game breaking for good, whether it be your fanbase leaving or the game crashing and you not being able to figure out why besides doing a rollback. Don't throw your careers away by implementing this update without fixing the game first, you won't please anyone; even yourselves.

[voodoogroves]

Drow: tempest/assassin = 20% extra SA on off hand = sick DPS. Madstoned and becomes THE king or Rogues.



Dear god, Drow will not universally suck and be a newbie trap?

;-)

Seriously, I think qualifying for both may be rough without trade off and if you had to dip a bit ... I'm still not too upset.

[LeLoric]

13/6/1 builds or 12/6/2 builds would be able to take to full Tier III tempest. There's just no way you could do it on a pure 20 rogue without gimping yourself.

Unless


We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.

feat relaxments on tempest would be big for the drow builds as well as any ranger builds both of which could use the help. Still hard to say what the other prereq's may be for them.

Tempest II tacked on to any of the melee pres currently is a good thing.

[FeralKittie]

Woah, exciting stuff here.

First off,

One thing I would like to see is the ability to swap out a few enhancements -- get rid of one or two things without having to re-do all of your enhancements... a perfect example is my air savant who is maxed out on his electrical spec and his cold spec, I'd like to be able to hop back and forth from air to water savant without having to re-do everything.

I strongly suggest this. I expect it would be especially useful in testing/getting used to the level of changes that sound to be upcoming.

Now in regard to those changes,

Fears: that in the guise of more options we will end up with something more restricting. Options that are no option at all as there is really one "right" way to build a given class. That we end up locked into class/race combos as the only viable option. That in moving to a tree system, rather than being a largely visual change to a more intuitive UI with a bit of clean up and new growth, we end up with massive pruning/restructuring to minimal bare trunks with a handful of paths.

Hopes: that these developments vastly expand character customization possibilities. That there are so many routes to take, interesting combinations rising to unique character capabilities, that hardly any two characters look alike. That these changes unleash a whole new array of creative avenues to explore. That shifting to a more intuitive tree UI is a necessary change to foster ease of use for the expansive build choices we are about to contend with. :D

It's a bit early to tell what ramifications there will be, but I'm definitely excited to see what's being cooked up. Can't wait to see this let loose on Lammania, hope there will be plenty of playtime over there before it hits live.

Thanks for this level of communication!

[Recared]

Cost melee and ranged lines low enough to allow for a full racial and two full class lines if you only puchase them and not some other fun stuff. Seriously, FB + Kensai + AA would not be OP compared to casters at this point...


Agree with that. As Eladrin said, melee classes could use some love, and FB + Kensai + AA or other combos could be very nice additions. Seems that racial line of PREs possibility is gonna bring and increase in overall power and I am sure it's gonna bring many new fun build possibilities. I am thrilled with the upcoming changes.

As for casters getting Defender or other specialties I am personally not worried too much. Sure we would see wfg fvs defenders with huge hp pool but we will also see many other improvements in other builds, maybe horc Kensai + Ravager + something, etc.

Can't wait to see the specifics!!!

[Cetus]

I'm extremely worried about how kensei will turn out. With the amount of unnecessary feats/enhancements already handicapping the PrE. I hope that there is some discourse with regard to improving the weapon focus feats, as 1 to attack for an entire feat slot is hardly worthwhile. The improved critical accuacy enhancements become synonymous with dumping 6 action points out the window.

Half-elf and human fighters who take human versatility for instance, shouldn't need to take fighter attack boost to satisfy for kensei- since HV already has attack boost in it.

It is very difficult to accept a wasting of valuable feat slots and many action points that don't coincide with a players goals in order to take the PrE.

As a side note, hats off to you devs for sharing this bit of news with us. I'm very happy to see this kind of exchange. I really can't find the words to express how much more satisfying this is for me than the alternative silence. Thanks guys.

[Havok.cry]

They do have the same favored class, and the Warforged were originally built to act as "tanks" in the war.

That may be so, but they were a very different sort of tank than the dwarven defenders. Stalwart defender is (it seems to me) based on dwarven defender, which tanked by standing it's ground against anything and being indomitable. Warforged tanks were the opposite. They tanked by domination of an area (I.E. bulls rush/overrun sort of stuff) Maybe purple dragon knight will fit them better.

/devils advocate active

On the other hand if you look at it from a certain perspective it can fit. First is sword and board which if your going all out for needs bastard swords and the THF line. With the THF line comes the greatsword dps mode. Second is the stance adds +6 to strength, which with a greatsword will add +4.5 damage to every swing. While its not a frenzied berserker it is still a nice bonus, and it comes along with extra AC making it just a bit easier to get a relevant score in that.

/devil's advocate off

My suggestion/request: make greatswords and bastard swords racial weapons for warforged. Not auto proficient, but with enhancment lines that boost them.

On a slightly different note:

Please make it a difficult choice to cast spells in defender stance. adding in combat expertise's 2x sp cost to the stance I feel is appropriate. I'm not sure weather or not you should move it here from there or have it on both and let them stack though. I do feel you should tie this cost's activation to the presence of magical training though. allowing ranger/paladin/bard spellcasting to continue.

[dkyle]

But the healing penalties in the modern game have really killed their viability. When you're going through literally hundreds of hjeal-scrolls a raid having a WF stalwart is just not practical.

If you make the defensive aspects that WF and dorfs can bring to the table viable in ALL levels of play this might be viable, but as it is now it is now.

That's true. Healers friend should probably be cheaper, and go further. Maxing at 90% after, say, 8 AP wouldn't be unreasonable, I think.

Alternatively, make the healing penalty an additive one. This produces the same result for an ungeared WF, but allows gear to make the penalty less significant.

For example, with all of 10%-20%-30% amp, plus 10% ship buff, a Dwarf could get 189% amp. Even with full healer's friend, a WF would have 141%. If it were a -25 percentage point penalty, applied at the end, instead of a 75% multiplier, the WF would have 164% amp instead. By comparison, that's the same as an 87% healer's friend, except that it comes from having lots of healing amp gear, not simply taking an enhancement.

Another possibility would be to make the Blood item enchantment more widely available. Putting it on a crafted armor is not reasonable at end-game, but perhaps if it were permitted on other slots? Or as an Epic augment?

Or, just add Repair Amplification, and make it possible to get about as much as Healing Amp is available. For example, the Pali past life might give both Healing, and Repair amp, seeing as Lay on Hands works equally well on WF as it does on fleshies.

[bhgiant]

Dear god, Drow will not universally suck and be a newbie trap?

;-)

Seriously, I think qualifying for both may be rough without trade off and if you had to dip a bit ... I'm still not too upset.
Drow not sucking and actually getting respect is something I am most happy about. And you're right, qualifying for both full tiers would be incredibly tight and would require a lot of sacrifices (no haste boost most likely) and as such would probably come out balanced in the end.

There will be OP-ness once this goes live though. I think we need to expect it and then expect the nerfs once we find that God-mode build that will come out of it. This is a good step in the right direction though and with proper LONG testing, I think it will come out of the gate pretty well balanced and much more fun to play. Now we just need more information...

[QuantumFX]

Eladrin,
So far, I like the idea of these changes. However, you will want to pay extremely close attention to feat prereqs. I can already see potential imbalances in favor of classes with a boatload of feats. (ex. Fighter based Kensai/Tempests becoming melee powerhouses while a pure ranger gets stuck with Arcane Archer/Tempest. Or *every* melee class attempting to become assassins and rogues being stuck with Assassin/Mechanic builds. Wizard based Pale Master/Water Savant.)

[Meat-Head]

K, Let's say you COULD make a WF SDIII/PMIII


You would get:

1. Necro slas
2. Necro summons (MEH)
3. Self healing through aura
4. +4 con
5. DCs help


6. DR6 + (still not as good as a monk or FVS)
7. 6 con and 6 str
8. AC boni
9. Threat
10. Saves boni


Ok, so you get a bunch of HPs, SLAs, self healing, and some DR.


What do you LOSE?


Damage on spells (not enuff APs for damage lines)
Spell Pen (see above)
DPS (You have +3 to hit and damage.... kewl.....)
Healers friend
Improved power attack line
Tactics
**TOUGHNESS ENHANCEMENTS**

Let's say you were building for this. How would you do it? Max STR and INT and rest in CON?


That gets you 18str/14con/18int on a 36 point build.

You have a pretty survivable tank who can only be healed by arcanes/harm and all that WITHOUT any repair amp.

The one thing he WILL have is good necro dcs.. So a tank who can wail with a lot of HPs and who would excel at being a torc battery. But his dps will still suck. I'm not even sure this guy could hold aggro on a boss very well.


Unless I'm missing something (WHICH IS TOTALLY POSSIBLE) I don't see this being THAT OP. I don't think this build would work for boss tanking because of the lack of DPS. Again, I COULD be wrong.

One possible solution is to lock out the wizzy capstone on a build like this. You'd lose a necro DC. Just a thought.

What am I missing?


*** Then again Defender stance and PM forms might be mutually exclusive which makes this a NON-issue.***

[Silverleafeon]

We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.

Please do separate feats from enhancements as much as possible.

Variety of build will happen with more freedom of choices for feats.

[Calebro]

Maybe purple dragon knight will fit them better.

Please make it a difficult choice to cast spells in defender stance. adding in combat expertise's 2x sp cost to the stance I feel is appropriate. I'm not sure weather or not you should move it here from there or have it on both and let them stack though. I do feel you should tie this cost's activation to the presence of magical training though. allowing ranger/paladin/bard spellcasting to continue.

Disagree on the first point. PDKs are the commanders and officers. They are kind of like the Bards of the army, rallying the troops to greater feats of battle than they thought possible, even having an Inspire Courage ability.
Not very appropriate for a WF at all. WF were created to follow orders, not give them.

Completely agree on the second point, and highlighted for emphasis.

[slimkj]

I like the sound of the direction you're taking this so far. Thanks for the info.

[CaptGrim]

The solution to the SD WF\dwarf caster issuse is easily sovled and not by stances locking out or raising the cost of spell casting.

Add feat requirements.

T1: shield prof

T2: med armor prof

T3: tower shield prof (possibly bab 15?)

Basicly a caster would have to spend 3 feats or splash 1 fighter to get to T3 defender.

I think that this plus the AP cost will make going this route have enough drawbacks to have it be viable yet not a must have choice for casters.

[Khimberlhyte]

We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.
Okay, now I'm getting a little worried.

I've only played since shortly after F2P, but the power creep in this game is getting out of hand. If new content continues to be tuned to people who are willing to do whatever it takes for spell DCs in the 40s, I get worried about whether this new enhancement system will move the far edge of the power curve even further away from people who play less than 8 hours a day. I don't want to have to grind my face off on every character and reduce the flexibility and solo ability of my characters to even get into new content. I've already seen talk about the possibilities of making a pale master with the extra DCs, SP, and SLA from archmage.

My biggest concern is that this flexibility, while attractive, is going to result in a few combinations that are so much more powerful than anything else that we will end up just a handful of cookie cutter builds dominating the game. Oh, your FBIII doesn't have kensai I and Crit Rage Replacement II? Gimp. Your FvS doesn't have Radiant Servant and Angel of Vengeance? Reroll.

[Havok.cry]

You know, I am absolutely worried about this update.

I feel like the game all of a sudden is gaining WAY too much power WAY too early. The ability to have more PrE's than before? More power at less cost? I feel that these things are the last thing the game needs at the moment; The game already is handling more than it was designed for with all of the lag and other technical issues we see in-game, not to mention the powercreeping issues as well. While it might be nice to tweak the enhancement system, as I am sure you know, if you mess up on this, the AP update could very well be the final nail in the coffin for this game.

I already stopped playing when the technical issues prevented me from playing the game properly, as well as the power creep overwhelming me. This game could be looking at filing a chapter 11 bankruptcy claim if you do this update wrong to the point it stirs up the fanbase; please, DO NOT work on this yet. I think it would be much better to fix the technical issues(And perhaps powercreeping issues) we have first than to implement this update and risk the game breaking for good, whether it be your fanbase leaving or the game crashing and you not being able to figure out why besides doing a rollback. Don't throw your careers away by implementing this update without fixing the game first, you won't please anyone; even yourselves.

Actually if you read between the lines, you might see that this could fix a bunch of those issues. If you look back: how many major bugs have occurred with arcane spells since the spell pass? I imagine when they do these huge massive revisions they replace alot of code, simplifying it and making it smoother and better. (hehe it may all be a guise to eventually have nothing effect the handwraps code anymore)

My second point is that this is not happening in 1 update. Read the dev posts closely. You'll see that this will not happen until many things occur. They are not going to drop an update that includes all this AND all the missing PRE's, it will happen over time, culminating in the update that has the enhancment change. It also isn't going to happen soon. remember they have stated they have a plan covering all of 2012... I think we are glimpsing it now.

Lastly, you mention powercreep. Fixing powercreep in a game based on improving your character is not really possible. I would recommend you save yourself some heartache and get over it now, because "fixing" powercreep IS the death knell of a game like DDO.